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Thread: A 6th gen console with specs lower than the Dreamcast's

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Default A 6th gen console with specs lower than the Dreamcast's

    So we know the Dreamcast was the weakest console of the 6th gen, it was the only one released in the 90s. But what if there existed a weaker 6th gen console than the Dreamcast? What would it look like?

    Some of you may be thinking of the 3DO M2, but that console couldn't even do 500,000 PPS, it was gonna be an N64 on steroids with CD storage.

    Does there exist an arcade board that would be a good example of what I'm describing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    So we know the Dreamcast was the weakest console of the 6th gen, it was the only one released in the 90s. But what if there existed a weaker 6th gen console than the Dreamcast? What would it look like?

    Some of you may be thinking of the 3DO M2, but that console couldn't even do 500,000 PPS, it was gonna be an N64 on steroids with CD storage.

    Does there exist an arcade board that would be a good example of what I'm describing?
    I would have said it would have been the home version of the Neo Geo Hyper 64
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    Talking about a sixth generation console that is weaker than DC is controversial, first because the DC itself is questioned by some ignorant if it is really a sixth generation console. Secondly the processing power, storing, would not represent the generational leap.

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    At the time, apart from Dreamcast the strongest system was model 3, but its hardware isn't viable on a console, so I can only see as an alternative, a modified model 2 or that arcade that runs the game Mace the Dark Age, the arcade version is pretty higher than the N64 version, it is very close to Soul Calibur Arcade and Tekken Tag arcade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I would have said it would have been the home version of the Neo Geo Hyper 64
    I was looking at the specs for it, I'd say spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Talking about a sixth generation console that is weaker than DC is controversial, first because the DC itself is questioned by some ignorant if it is really a sixth generation console. Secondly the processing power, storing, would not represent the generational leap.
    I've seen that before, thats one of the reasons I spend so much time in the PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics thread. The reality is the Dreamcast was released in the transition into 6th gen, so theres hundreds of games released for it that aren't taking advantage of it. It might be that only 40% of the Dreamcast games are technically considered 6th gen. The same thing happened with the PS2, albeit not as bad. It wasn't until the GameCube and OG Xbox where they were getting pure 6th gen games.


    Also about the generation leap, let me show you the situation. Imagine if there was a console with these specs: 120 MHz processor, 16 MB RAM, 38 audio channels, 1 million PPS maximum with all effects, CD storage. This would've been a huge leap over the N64, a generational leap. But this console would've been only slightly closer to the OG Xbox than the N64. This is how generations work. A console is a generational leap over the previous console, but the most powerful console in that generation is almost a leap over it. Because technically the lowest polycounts considered 6th gen are around 700,000-900,000 PPS, so I don't feel the Dreamcast is the lowest a 6th gen console can be. I gotta find an arcade board that matches those specs.


    Also it was great to see both you guys knew exactly what I meant. This is a topic that might never have been discussed in history.
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    First-year or 2 of every gen since about the 6th have been cross-generation games or last-gen ports the first year or 2. Bully came out on 60 two years after 360 launched. 360 had a lot of PS2 games ported to it it's first year and 360 launched a year before Wii and PS3.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post

    Also about the generation leap, let me show you the situation. Imagine if there was a console with these specs: 120 MHz processor, 16 MB RAM, 38 audio channels, 1 million PPS maximum with all effects, CD storage. This would've been a huge leap over the N64, a generational leap. But this console would've been only slightly closer to the OG Xbox than the N64. This is how generations work. A console is a generational leap over the previous console, but the most powerful console in that generation is almost a leap over it. Because technically the lowest polycounts considered 6th gen are around 700,000-900,000 PPS, so I don't feel the Dreamcast is the lowest a 6th gen console can be. I gotta find an arcade board that matches those specs.


    Also it was great to see both you guys knew exactly what I meant. This is a topic that might never have been discussed in history.
    I confess that defining a generation before was easier, but nowadays it has become more complex, it is difficult to classify a console like the one you imagined, whether it would be an evolved fifth generation or a reduced sixth generation.

    I believe that to have a clearer answer we need to go beyond the numbers, but to the practical result for the visual generated.
    for example 1M of theoretical polygons.

    As this is a retro subject, we already know what kind of 1M polygons visuals can generate, M2 games, VF3 TB, Mortal Kombat 4, let's take this point, these games would be for this hypothetical console the maximum visual, arcade MK4 (1M pps) not it's as beautiful as Dreamcast's MK Gold and VF3 TB runs on Model 3 which is stronger than this hypothetical console so the port would be even worse than Dreamcast's it would look better than Nintendo 64's Mace the Dark Age, but it would be closer to MTDA than SC1 DC or TTT PS2, I'm sure, but while VF3 on Dreamcast, that's a transitional look, for this hypothetical console it would be the limit. so, I don't think it could handle sixth generation multplat games or if we can call its exclusive games of sixth generation games.

    so, we can call it a generational leap, when a game that can't be ported on the previous generation consoles, even downgraded.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 11-02-2019 at 12:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post

    Some of you may be thinking of the 3DO M2, but that console couldn't even do 500,000 PPS, it was gonna be an N64 on steroids with CD storage.

    Well I'm glad you finally agree that the M2 is nothing more than a turbo charged N64. I seem to recall when I said back in the Dreamcast VS PS2 thread that I considered the OG Xbox to be the M2 of the 6th generation (eg close to 7th gen in places, like the M2 would of been an early 6th gen system - even though it wasn't much more powerful than the N64) you shot back that the XBOX "was only 15% better than the Gamecube". I LOLed.

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    Does the N64DD count? You get 8MB of RAM, 64MB storage capacity, Internet connectivity... it's sort of 6th gen in the same way the 32X was a next-gen system.

    If it has to be arcade based then maybe one of the Atari boards like the Flagstaff or Seattle, or the Midway Atlantis, or the Namco Super System 23.
    Last edited by axel; 11-02-2019 at 07:16 AM.

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    On a similar subject, heres what would be considered an early 7th gen console. This system had a Intel Celeron, 512 MB RAM etc:

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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    Well I'm glad you finally agree that the M2 is nothing more than a turbo charged N64. I seem to recall when I said back in the Dreamcast VS PS2 thread that I considered the OG Xbox to be the M2 of the 6th generation (eg close to 7th gen in places, like the M2 would of been an early 6th gen system - even though it wasn't much more powerful than the N64) you shot back that the XBOX "was only 15% better than the Gamecube". I LOLed.
    Well it is game industry convention that the 3DO M2 was gonna be a 6th gen console, it even says on Wikipedia. You can't blame me. But after doing some spec research, it was gonna be an N64 on steroids. So we gotta set the notion right, it was more gonna be the OG Xbox of the 5th gen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    First-year or 2 of every gen since about the 6th have been cross-generation games or last-gen ports the first year or 2. Bully came out on 60 two years after 360 launched. 360 had a lot of PS2 games ported to it it's first year and 360 launched a year before Wii and PS3.
    Yes great point, both the Dreamcast and 360 experienced the same phenomenon, 60-80% of the games being released for the systems were initially designed for previous generation hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    As this is a retro subject, we already know what kind of 1M polygons visuals can generate, M2 games, VF3 TB, Mortal Kombat 4, let's take this point, these games would be for this hypothetical console the maximum visual, arcade MK4 (1M pps) not it's as beautiful as Dreamcast's MK Gold and VF3 TB runs on Model 3 which is stronger than this hypothetical console so the port would be even worse than Dreamcast's it would look better than Nintendo 64's Mace the Dark Age, but it would be closer to MTDA than SC1 DC or TTT PS2, I'm sure, but while VF3 on Dreamcast, that's a transitional look, for this hypothetical console it would be the limit. so, I don't think it could handle sixth generation multplat games or if we can call its exclusive games of sixth generation games.
    First off, Virtua Fighter 3TB is 1.2-1.3 million PPS.

    The example we should be using is Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2. The game is a pure 1 million PPS 6th gen multiplat. Does it look like a 6th gen game? Yes, but its quite far from using the Dreamcast's full capabilities(you only gotta take one look at Dead or Alive 2). So this shows there could be a weaker 6th gen console than the Dreamcast, where Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 would be using 80% of its power. We just gotta find the right arcade board to demonstrate this.


    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    Does the N64DD count? You get 8MB of RAM, 64MB storage capacity, Internet connectivity... it's sort of 6th gen in the same way the 32X was a next-gen system.
    Not enough RAM, the N64 is pure mid-90s hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    If it has to be arcade based then maybe one of the Atari boards like the Flagstaff or Seattle, or the Midway Atlantis, or the Namco Super System 23.
    Absolutely brilliant, the Atari Seattle has essentially the same specs of what I described before: "120 MHz processor, 16 MB RAM, 38 audio channels, 1 million PPS maximum with all effects, CD storage".

    Aside from the lighting and general lack of special effects, I feel these games look like very early 6th gen games:






    Heres the Atari Vegas board, graphically this game appears to be 99% accurate of what I was trying to describe in this thread. It look moderately below Dreamcast graphics yet still 6th gen:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post

    First off, Virtua Fighter 3TB is 1.2-1.3 million PPS.

    The example we should be using is Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2. The game is a pure 1 million PPS 6th gen multiplat. Does it look like a 6th gen game? Yes, but its quite far from using the Dreamcast's full capabilities(you only gotta take one look at Dead or Alive 2). So this shows there could be a weaker 6th gen console than the Dreamcast, where Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 would be using 80% of its power. We just gotta find the right arcade board to demonstrate this.
    I disagree, and I think our point of disagreement is in the details, when I think of sixth generation multiplatform, I think games like ssx, baldurs gate, ty tasmanian, soul calibur 2, f1 2001, 007 games, MK: Deadly alliance, spiderman, These games can't run on N64 (even with dvd rom drive on it) but R2R: BR2 can. Therefore, his hypothetical console couldn't be called the sixth generation cause all its games can to be ported to N64, just downgraded. In contrast, almost no PS2 games can be played on it (N64). Unfortunately even Dreamcast itself can't handle some PS2 games or later multplats .

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I disagree, and I think our point of disagreement is in the details, when I think of sixth generation multiplatform, I think games like ssx, baldurs gate, ty tasmanian, soul calibur 2, f1 2001, 007 games, MK: Deadly alliance, spiderman, These games can't run on N64 (even with dvd rom drive on it) but R2R: BR2 can. Therefore, his hypothetical console couldn't be called the sixth generation cause all its games can to be ported to N64, just downgraded. In contrast, almost no PS2 games can be played on it (N64). Unfortunately even Dreamcast itself can't handle some PS2 games or later multplats .
    Really bizarre logic. You do recognize the N64 version of Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 is likely running at 1/14th the polycounts of the Dreamcast and PS2 versions right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    If it has to be arcade based then maybe one of the Atari boards like the Flagstaff or Seattle, or the Midway Atlantis, or the Namco Super System 23.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namco_System_23

    Main CPU: 133 MHz IDT R4650 64-bit. Super System 23 used a 166 MHz chip and Super System 23 Evolution 2 used a 200 MHz chip
    Sound CPU: 16.9344 MHz Hitachi H8/3002
    Sound Chip: Namco C352 Sample playback
    I/O CPU: Gorgon and System 23 used Hitachi H8/3334 Super System 23 and Super System 23 Evolution 2 used PIC16Cxx
    Extra I/O CPU: Hitachi SH-2 used only on Super System 23 GMEN
    Graphics hardware: Namco-proprietary hardware
    GPU: Multiple parallel VideoLogic PowerVR chips[1]
    Graphical capabilities: 2 million polygons per second,[1] texture mapping, Gouraud shading
    This is right on the nail
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