Sega-16 Politics Thread

[TheEdge]

I laughed because those questions pretty much summarize you as a person (or how I imagine you to be, at least).

What kind of person looks at a bad situation and actually believes that it will never get any better?? Do you think that this "crisis" will just spiral out of control until the world ends?

Stop worrying about this shit so much. It's bad right now, but it will get better. I'm more certain of that than anything.

If you see and fully understand the ramifications of what certain political and financial bodies are doing right now then you would share the opinion that this crisis will continue indefinitely.

All I have to suggest to you is research Andrew Mellon and Herbert Hoover.

[MrMatthews]

I figured that question would get that kind of response, but the difference is that Homer is actually happy a lot of the time!

If you see and fully understand the ramifications of what certain political and financial bodies are doing right now then you would share the opinion that this crisis will continue indefinitely.

All I have to suggest to you is research Andrew Mellon and Herbert Hoover.

Well, I suppose you might as well do yourself in right now to avoid the rush later on.

[TheEdge]

They do not see because they do not wish it to be.

[MrMatthews]

Part of me knows I should feel sorry for you . . . but I don't. For some people, the sky is always falling. Once this thing resolves itself within the next few years, you're just going to find something else to freak out about.

[TheEdge]

Part of me knows I should feel sorry for you . . . but I don't. For some people, the sky is always falling. Once this thing resolves itself within the next few years, you're just going to find something else to freak out about.

Have you researched the great depression? Herbert Hoover? and Andrew Mellon? I can't continue this conversation if your just going to keep repeating "Prosperity is just around the corner!" while reading nothing about the previous economic hardships in our countries history.


http://lcweb2.loc.gov/learn/features...s/hoovers.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26776283/

[MrMatthews]

Thanks for bringing up the Great Depression.

Did it continue indefinitely, or did it run its course so thing could go back to normal?

[TheEdge]

The depression stopped because of FDR's New Deal not because it ran its course like an involuntary reflex. The business cycle is a fraud. Its free market mythology.

But to answer your question. There is no New Deal in site therefore nothing is going back to normal anytime soon.

Research Herbert Hoover and Andrew Mellon

[InternalPrimate]

The depression stopped because of FDR's New Deal not because it ran its course like involuntary reflex. The business cycle is a fraud.

But to answer your question. There is no New Deal in site thus nothing is going back to normal anytime soon.

Research Herbert Hoover and Andrew Mellon

Not to involve myself in the argument, but isn't Obama's entire rescue plan New Deal-like? I'm pretty sure it is. So... yeah. Continue your argument!

[TheEdge]

Not to involve myself in the argument, but isn't Obama's entire rescue plan New Deal-like? I'm pretty sure it is. So... yeah. Continue your argument!

I really didn't want to drag our new "President" into this but what Obama is doing is the complete opposite of the New Deal. He is giving all the money to Wall street's Financial Oligarchs while allowing social services and main street to wither on the vine.

He is the antithesis of FDR, MLK, JFK, and Lincoln.

The proof is in the pudding. What has he done to inject money for production and infrastructure? Very little if not nothing. Wall Street and the investment sectors have gotten the lion's share of the "bailout" money and continue to horde it and not lend but he continues to give them money. He didn't stop foreclosures, refuses to stop the wars, and is continuing to bomb Pakistan while allowing the production based economy to die while shipping jobs overseas.


George Bush + Obama = Herbert Hoover

[MrMatthews]

What exactly is your point here, Edge? Is your goal to work everyone up into a paranoid frenzy and incite a mad exodus to the afterlife?

Let's just say that I accept your argument, that the world is a horrible, terrifying place and it's only going to get worse before we all just die.

Now what?

[TheEdge]

I'm just saying that I'm concerned that no one is taking any New Deal action. A lot of money is going to big business and not regular people that's all.

Also no one is stopping house foreclosures which in my opinion is a crime. We are giving all this money to corporations and they are still foreclosing on people.

[InternalPrimate]

I really didn't want to drag our new "President" into this but what Obama is doing is the complete opposite of the New Deal. He is giving all the money to Wall street's Financial Oligarchs while allowing social services and main street to wither on the vine.

He is the antithesis of FDR, MLK, JFK, and Lincoln.

The proof is in the pudding. What has he done to inject money for production and infrastructure? Very little if not nothing. Wall Street and the investment sectors have gotten the lion's share of the "bailout" money and continue to horde it and not lend but he continues to give them money. He didn't stop foreclosures, refuses to stop the wars, and is continuing to bomb Pakistan while allowing the production based economy to die while shipping jobs overseas.


George Bush + Obama = Herbert Hoover

Obama Unveils 21st Century New Deal politico.com
President-elect Barack Obama added sweep and meat to his economic agenda on Saturday, pledging the largest new investment in roads and bridges since President Dwight D. Eisenhower built the Interstate system in the late 1950s, and tying his key initiatives – education, energy, health care –back to jobs in a package that has the makings of a smaller and modern version of FDR's New Deal marriage of job creation with infrastructure upgrades.

The president-elect also said for the first time that he will “launch the most sweeping effort to modernize and upgrade school buildings that this country has ever seen.”

“We will repair broken schools, make them energy-efficient, and put new computers in our classrooms,” he said in the address.

The president-elect is bringing new elements of his domestic agenda into his economic recovery plan, committing to a path toward giving every American access to an electronic medical record as part of an “economic recovery plan ... that won’t just save jobs, it will save lives.”

Obama had talked in the campaign about lowering health care costs by investing in electronic information technology systems, but not in the context of the economy.

Now, his key initiatives – education, energy, health care – are all being tied back to jobs.

“When Congress reconvenes in January, I look forward to working with them to pass a plan immediately,” Obama says in the address. “We need to act with the urgency this moment demands to save or create at least two and a half million jobs so that the nearly two million Americans who’ve lost them know that they have a future. And that’s exactly what I intend to do as president of the United States.”

Obama had committed just before Thanksgiving to saving or creating 2.5 million jobs in the next two years, more than twice his campaign promise of 1 million new jobs over an unspecified period. But he didn’t say how he would do it. On Saturday, he began to spell it out, offering "five key parts" of his economic plan:

—ENERGY: “[W]e will launch a massive effort to make public buildings more energy-efficient. Our government now pays the highest energy bill in the world. We need to change that. We need to upgrade our federal buildings by replacing old heating systems and installing efficient light bulbs. That won’t just save you, the American taxpayer, billions of dollars each year. It will put people back to work.”

—ROADS AND BRIDGES: “[W]e will create millions of jobs by making the single largest new investment in our national infrastructure since the creation of the federal highway system in the 1950s. We’ll invest your precious tax dollars in new and smarter ways, and we’ll set a simple rule – use it or lose it. If a state doesn’t act quickly to invest in roads and bridges in their communities, they’ll lose the money.”

—SCHOOLS: “[M]y economic recovery plan will launch the most sweeping effort to modernize and upgrade school buildings that this country has ever seen. We will repair broken schools, make them energy-efficient, and put new computers in our classrooms. Because to help our children compete in a 21st century economy, we need to send them to 21st century schools.”

—BROADBAND: “As we renew our schools and highways, we’ll also renew our information superhighway. It is unacceptable that the United States ranks 15th in the world in broadband adoption. Here, in the country that invented the Internet, every child should have the chance to get online, and they’ll get that chance when I’m president – because that’s how we’ll strengthen America’s competitiveness in the world.”

(Incoming White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel had talked about expanding broadband access, but this is the first time the transition has formally proposed it.)

—ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS: “In addition to connecting our libraries and schools to the Internet, we must also ensure that our hospitals are connected to each other through the Internet. That is why the economic recovery plan I’m proposing will help modernize our health care system – and that won’t just save jobs, it will save lives. We will make sure that every doctor’s office and hospital in this country is using cutting edge technology and electronic medical records so that we can cut red tape, prevent medical mistakes, and help save billions of dollars each year.”

Hmmm...yeah....so...this wouldn't be what I was talking about?

We can all agree that the world is going through tough times right now (it isn't just the US) and things are going to get worse before they get better, but as the old saying goes "It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something." -FDR

[InternalPrimate]

Just to add to the debate (really not trying to throw gasoline on the fire here), this is a more recent article (posted 3 hours ago) from news.yahoo.com. You keep saying that Obama is only giving to corporations, and you even singled out the lack of aid to home owners. You might be interested in this (I used bold in areas of interest) :

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama's economic recovery plan has passed the Senate and is on its way to difficult House-Senate negotiations. Just three Republicans helped pass the plan on a 61-37 vote and they're already signaling they'll play hardball to preserve more than $108 billion in spending cuts made last week in Senate dealmaking. Obama wants to restore cuts in funds for school construction jobs and help for cash-starved states.

Those cuts are among the major differences between the $819 billion House version of Obama's plan and a Senate bill costing $838 billion. Obama has warned of a deepening economic crisis if Congress fails to act. He wants a bill completed by the weekend.

The bill backed by the White House survived a key test vote in the Senate Monday despite strong Republican opposition, and Democratic leaders vowed to deliver legislation for President Barack Obama's signature within a few days.

Monday's vote was 61-36, one more than the 60 needed to advance the measure toward Senate passage on Tuesday. That in turn, will set the stage for possibly contentious negotiations with the House on a final compromise on legislation the president says is desperately needed to tackle the worst economic crisis in more than a generation.

The Senate vote occurred as the Obama administration moved ahead on another key component of its economic recovery plan. Officials said Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner would outline rules on Tuesday for $350 billion in bailout funds designed to help the financial industry as well as homeowners facing foreclosure.

Monday's vote was close but scarcely in doubt once the White House and Democratic leaders agreed to trim about $100 billion on Friday.

As a result, Republican Sens. Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe of Maine and Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania broke ranks to cast their votes to advance the bill.

Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., battling a brain tumor, made his first appearance in the Capitol since suffering a seizure on Inauguration Day, and he joined all other Democrats in support of the measure.

"There is no reason we can't do this by the end of the week," said Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada. He said he was prepared to hold the Senate in session into the Presidents Day weekend if necessary, and cautioned Republicans not to try and delay final progress.

He said passage would mark "the first step on the long road to recovery."

Moments before the vote, the Congressional Budget Office issued a new estimate that put the cost at $838 billion, an increase from the $827 billion figure from last week.

"This bill has the votes to pass. We know that," conceded Sen. John Thune, a South Dakota Republican who has spoken daily in the Senate against the legislation.

As if to underscore its prospects for passage, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, a prominent and powerful business group, issued a statement calling on the Senate to advance the measure.

Even so, in the hours before Monday's vote, Republican opponents attacked it as too costly and unlikely to have the desired effect on the economy. "This is a spending bill, not a stimulus bill," said Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn.

All 36 votes in opposition were cast by Republicans.

The two remaining versions of the legislation are relatively close in size — $838 billion in the Senate and $819 billion in the House, and are similar in many respects.

Both include Obama's call for a tax cut for lower-income wage earners, as well as billions for unemployment benefits, food stamps, health care and other programs to help victims of the worst recession in decades. In a bow to the administration, they also include billions for development of new information technology for the health industry, and billions more to lay the groundwork for a new environmentally friendly industry that would help reduce the nation's dependence on foreign oil.

At the same time, the differences are considerable.

The measure nearing approval in the Senate calls for more tax cuts and less spending than the House bill, largely because it includes a $70 billion provision to protect middle-class taxpayers from falling victim to the alternative minimum tax, which was intended to make sure the very wealthy don't avoid paying taxes.

Both houses provide for tax breaks for home buyers, but the Senate's provision is far more generous. The Senate bill also gives a tax break to purchasers of new cars.

Both houses provide $87 billion in additional funds for the Medicaid program, which provides health care to the low income. But the House and Senate differ on the formula to be used in distributing the money, a dispute that pits states against one another rather than Republicans against Democrats.

There are dozens of differences on spending.

The Senate proposed $450 million for NASA for exploration, for example, $50 million less than the House. It also eliminated the House's call for money to combat a potential flu pandemic.

On the other hand, the Senate bill calls for several billion more in spending for research at the National Institutes of Health, the result of an amendment backed last week by Specter.

My big point here is that money IS going to people, and not just corporations.

[gamevet]

Have you researched the great depression? Herbert Hoover? and Andrew Mellon? I can't continue this conversation if your just going to keep repeating "Prosperity is just around the corner!" while reading nothing about the previous economic hardships in our countries history.

The Great Depression was a result of the economic burden of WWI on the world and banks folding under when the agricultural market couldn't support itself.

http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps...sion/about.htm

The Great Depression began in the United States but quickly turned into a worldwide economic slump owing to the special and intimate relationships that had been forged between the United States and European economies after World War I. The United States had emerged from the war as the major creditor and financier of postwar Europe, whose national economies had been greatly weakened by the war itself, by war debts, and, in the case of Germany and other defeated nations, by the need to pay war reparations. So once the American economy slumped and the flow of American investment credits to Europe dried up, prosperity tended to collapse there as well. The Depression hit hardest those nations that were most deeply indebted to the United States, i.e., Germany and Great Britain. In Germany, unemployment rose sharply beginning in late 1929, and by early 1932 it had reached 6 million workers, or 25 percent of the work force. Britain was less severely affected, but its industrial and export sectors remained seriously depressed until World War II. Many other countries had been affected by the slump by 1931.

Almost all nations sought to protect their domestic production by imposing tariffs, raising existing ones, and setting quotas on foreign imports. The effect of these restrictive measures was to greatly reduce the volume of international trade: by 1932 the total value of world trade had fallen by more than half as country after country took measures against the importation of foreign goods.

The FDIC was created, to ensure that the peoples' money wasn't gone, once a bank folded.

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/analytical/firstfifty/

The US government didn't offer a bailout program for these financial institutions, just for the sake of it. The world economy is dependent on US banks to keep going and without them, we would have another great depression.

The rules of the stock market are also much different than they were during that era. The stock market pretty much collapsed in one day, kicking off "The Great Depression." The way the stock market is setup now, those kind of selloffs won't happen.

The 1970's were much tougher than what we are going through now. The oil crisis put a huge burden on the US economy and the unemployment rate was skyrocketing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0303/p01s01-usec.html

"We're not going to see a replay of the 1970s in terms of the actual magnitudes" of unemployment and inflation, predicts James Hamilton, an economist at the University of California, San Diego. But the United States could see a period where "inflation goes up at the same time that real gross domestic product and employment stagnate."
One informal gauge of stagflation, the so-called "misery index," represents the sum of the unemployment rate and change in consumer prices over the past 12 months. Now in the 9 percent range, the index stands at less than half the peak it reached in 1974.
Still, with inflation up more than 4 percent and a jobless rate at 5 percent, the index in December hit a year-end level not seen since 1993, when the economy was struggling to find its footing after a recession.

This has affected the financial mood. Heightened worry is showing up in consumer confidence indexes, and on Friday the US stock market took a big dive.

[TheEdge]

The original idea: Spend $700 billion in tax dollars to buy troubled mortgage-related assets from struggling banks.

But the actual bailout calls for nothing of the sort. Instead, your tax dollars are buying massive shares in some of the nation's biggest and most successful banks - with virtually no strings attached. And that's all allowed under Congress' plan

http://current.com/items/89523396/wh...oney_going.htm

It would have only cost around 200 million or so to bail out ALL the bad mortgages. Which I may add are illegal mortgages anyway. Predator loans that shouldn't be paid in the first place. Usury is and always has been illegal.

Secondly yes, your right. Like I said above a small minuscule piece of the money is going to infrastructure and social services but Billions are going into bad banks (that aren't lending any money) to buy up all the toxic paper that is worth nothing, zero, nadda. World wide there are 1 thousand trillion worthless derivatives that this and the last administration was attempting to bail out. Its like throwing cash into a black hole.

Obama will pay lip service to all of these "Plans" for prosperity but I see nothing being done. All I see is a dropping standard of living and the government catering to wall street big wigs while allowing the people to starve in the streets.

Also.....

No end to the wars

More exporting of jobs

Tax cheats in office

No prosecutions of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell

Bombing of innocents in Pakistan

No end to foreclosures

Destruction of standard of living / Monetary system

Bailouts of Wall Street parasites

No return of the Glass Steagall act / Up Tick rule

No move to outlaw Derivatives (which this whole problem stems from)

No new production / science based jobs being created (just fancy slogans)

No new 9/11 investigation

No money / support for wounded veterans or families who lost loved ones

Elimination of the Head Start Program for poor children (Which will be passed in this bill)

No investigations into torture

No extra money for welfare, social security, unemployment, food stamps, etc


I can go on forever.

In closing its all a fake. Even the Obama-zombies are breaking free from the conditioning. His ratings have fallen by 15% and will keep falling. I wish I could believe in him but he is a puppet of the financial elite.