M.U.S.H.A.

[StarMist]

You listed several games and I like them all. However, I can't see how Dangerous Seed, for an example, is clearly superior to M.U.S.H.A. in any tech department. Could you explain/compare/show me the differences?

Yep, The Punisher is crap on Genesis but if you are looking for a good controversial debate you should go here.

I was with my girlfriend, just give me a break!

Break awarded!

Continuing in reverse order: I don't watch any of those gameroom clowns.

As for my exms' quality you never specified it must be in the tech department, about which I never care. Want high specs? Go hit up the 360.
Dangerous Seed, for exm, has a superior palette, superior visibility/clarity, superior animations (Musha's sprites are just skimmed on and off the screen w/o their own motions), superior music and tonal clarity (though Musha's tonality may be argued as a designed part of its metal sound), superior mechanics (Musha's weapon system requires no thought or attention, DS's does), superior difficulty and length if those matter to you, and more impressive/interesting ie superior bosses.
Phantasy Star II, in the tech department, features theretofore unseen levels of combat animation from both the characters and enemies, changing weapon sprites to reflect one's equipment, detailed sound effects (which as Melf pointed out many of are never used again in any G/MD game), unexpected programming allowances such as the ability to go into combat defending (in case of losing initiations, ie surprise attacks), wonderful enemy sprites, and instrumentation perfectly tailored to the Genny soundchip.
Curse would be a push but I much prefer that solid graphical look to Musha's pasted. The same reason I included TFIII, though it too is very close with Musha. Forgotten Worlds, the other exm that fails to pull away from Musha, again has a much more interesting and detailed/animated protagonist sprite than Musha's and I feel much more interesting and noticeable backgrounds.
Every other game has at least one outstanding quality even if it's only something far removed from the tech spectrum such as design, originality, or fun. For the record I did not include any of those games based on challenge, that's just a throw in. (I could do with Phelios being easier).

If you wish I can resume this with you tomorrow, for now I'm off. That'll give you time to come up with one of your mammoth lists. Have your girlfriend pitch in.

[Thunderblaze16]

To the both of you arguing about Musha matter...

[Barone]

Dangerous Seed, for exm, has a superior palette, superior visibility/clarity, superior animations (Musha's sprites are just skimmed on and off the screen w/o their own motions), superior music and tonal clarity (though Musha's tonality may be argued as a designed part of its metal sound), superior mechanics (Musha's weapon system requires no thought or attention, DS's does), superior difficulty and length if those matter to you, and more impressive/interesting ie superior bosses.

I just played the two games today in my setup to give you a better answer.

Dangerous Seed has a brighter palette but I didn't find it superior. The visibility, yes, it's better.
The animations are pretty rough in Dangerous Seed, even more the explosions that could fit in a good 8-bit shooter... Also, M.U.S.H.A. is a lot faster and has many more things going on the screen and I found the animations far superior.
DS's music is better than I remembered and I prefer its composition style over M.U.S.H.A.'s. However, the later has undeniably more complex sfx and richer compositions.
And I agree with you about the bosses, I like the DS's more...
Finally, in terms of presentation quality M.U.S.H.A. is superior IMO, but Dangerous Seed is not bad at all.
Anyway, I still don't see how DS is clearly superior to M.U.S.H.A., but I probably enjoy Dangerous Seed (I can't believe that Namco never released it outside Japan) more than M.U.S.H.A..

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Dangerous Seed has some roughly drawn background parts like Darwin 4081 and several other early games. I mean, you can see some non-smooth edges here and there, what contributes to an uglier/rougher looking.
This is one of the things that shines on M.U.S.H.A. over Dangerous Seed, Darwin 4081 and even TFIII.

Phantasy Star II, in the tech department, features theretofore unseen levels of combat animation from both the characters and enemies, changing weapon sprites to reflect one's equipment, detailed sound effects (which as Melf pointed out many of are never used again in any G/MD game), unexpected programming allowances such as the ability to go into combat defending (in case of losing initiations, ie surprise attacks), wonderful enemy sprites, and instrumentation perfectly tailored to the Genny soundchip.
Curse would be a push but I much prefer that solid graphical look to Musha's pasted. The same reason I included TFIII, though it too is very close with Musha. Forgotten Worlds, the other exm that fails to pull away from Musha, again has a much more interesting and detailed/animated protagonist sprite than Musha's and I feel much more interesting and noticeable backgrounds.
Every other game has at least one outstanding quality even if it's only something far removed from the tech spectrum such as design, originality, or fun. For the record I did not include any of those games based on challenge, that's just a throw in. (I could do with Phelios being easier).

If you wish I can resume this with you tomorrow, for now I'm off. That'll give you time to come up with one of your mammoth lists. Have your girlfriend pitch in.

These other examples are harder to be compared or not so good as DS, like Phelios...
Phelios has some ultra awesome moments but some very disappointing ones too, so I don't think it's a solid contender, even more considering its overall slow paced action compared to the "frenetic" M.U.S.H.A..

EDIT: Darius II is awesome and I love it. The music was superbly done with the MD soundchip and the backgrounds do look superior to M.U.S.H.A.'s IMO. But I find the sfx kinda annoying and enemies design look generic sometimes... Again, the mecha-theme of M.U.S.H.A. has its special appeal to some crowds.

Although, I think I got your point and it just sums up to the fact that M.U.S.H.A. has been too much overhyped in the last years. It's a very good game IMO but it's nowhere the holy grail that some would say... Also, price tag by price tag, I would say that Dangerous Seed delivers a better ROI (unless you're so lucky like our fellow member that snagged M.U.S.H.A. for almost nothing at the goodwill).

[StarMist]

I just played the two games today in my setup to give you a better answer. Dangerous Seed has a brighter palette but I didn't find it superior. The visibility, yes, it's better. The animations are pretty rough in Dangerous Seed, even more the explosions that could fit in a good 8-bit shooter... Also, M.U.S.H.A. is a lot faster and has many more things going on the screen and I found the animations far superior.

When I first played DS it was on max dfc and too much for me (that increases the speed, at least of enemy shots) so I remember the opening lvs much better than the later which I mostly breezed through on Normal. The early animations are distinct: the bugs' walks and patterns make more of an impression than Musha's that just seem to be dropped in on a wire like fairies on the stage. Explosion quality is not something I even notice unless it's so rich I can't see bullets (Eliminate Down on Hard--not a problem on Normal). Neither animates its bosses particularly well but DS's are much larger, which of course is a tech matter.

DS's music is better than I remembered and I prefer its composition style over M.U.S.H.A.'s. However, the later has undeniably more complex sfx and richer compositions. And I agree with you about the bosses, I like the DS's more...

Sfx? In Musha? I'll concede they're probably more distinct on real hardware, esp if you're playing on a VA6 with its excessive bass, but I really don't hear much other than little pops under all that metal guitar. DS I also play on Fusion so it's a level field. Sfx in shooters are little but an opportunity for irritation, vastly too frequent to be of appeal. Neither's are annoying.

Anyway, I still don't see how DS is clearly superior to M.U.S.H.A. >>>> EDIT: I forgot to mention that Dangerous Seed has some roughly drawn background parts like Darwin 4081 and several other early games. I mean, you can see some non-smooth edges here and there, what contributes to an uglier/rougher looking. This is one of the things that shines on M.U.S.H.A. over Dangerous Seed, Darwin 4081 and even TFIII.

I like that 'roughness', it's what I termed 'solidity', and why I generally prefer NES graphics to 16 bit, Genesis to SNES, PS/SS and PS2 to PS3/360. Floating sprites, of which HD is the polygon equivalent, do not look good. That doesn't mean they can't be smooth when integrated (Aladdin, Mickey Mania, Sonic 2), but smooth when not integrated looks cheap and silly, or, as in Musha's case, when integrated but unsuccessful looks flat. TFIII looks solid to degrees that vary by lv; likewise Curse; on more illustrious ground it's also why Sonic 1 looks better than 2 apart from instances of sheer design (Hilltop Zone outcharms most of Sonic 1, and Aquatic Ruin Zone is matchless). DS is substantial in something of a Verytex fashion.

These other examples are harder to be compared or not so good as DS, like Phelios... Phelios has some ultra awesome moments but some very disappointing ones too, so I don't think it's a solid contender, even more considering its overall slow paced action compared to the "frenetic" M.U.S.H.A..

Phelios, on [I]Normal[I], has a superbly balanced tension that does pick up in places; Musha is just fast.

Although, I think I got your point and it just sums up to the fact that M.U.S.H.A. has been too much overhyped in the last years.

Hype means as little to me as does mass opinion. I'm not enamoured, bored, disappointed, or disgusted by games according to whether they were the top selling titles of any given year or get swoony 10/10s at Sega-16. Musha's just a ROM I loaded. Sometimes those ROMs are great fun, sometimes they're Fantasia.

[Barone]

When I first played DS it was on max dfc and too much for me (that increases the speed, at least of enemy shots) so I remember the opening lvs much better than the later which I mostly breezed through on Normal. The early animations are distinct: the bugs' walks and patterns make more of an impression than Musha's that just seem to be dropped in on a wire like fairies on the stage.

Yeah, I got your point here. The Mega CD's Denin Aleste has more animation here and there, some provided by hardware gimmicks, but it's still not an animation fest like some games.
Well, the best one in this matter is Crying (Bio Hazard Battle). OK, it's a 1992 game but most of the time it's full of rich animation. The later levels are mind-blowing to say the least. If you don't know it, you should give it a try 'cause you'll probably love the damn thing. IMO only Neo Geo will show better animations than this game in the 16-bit world.

Explosion quality is not something I even notice unless it's so rich I can't see bullets (Eliminate Down on Hard--not a problem on Normal). Neither animates its bosses particularly well but DS's are much larger, which of course is a tech matter.

The explosions are something that I do care when I'm playing a scrolling shooter. IDK why, but the very primitive ones really give me a let down while playing. However, some early releases have better explosion effects than Dangerous Seed aside from M.U.S.H.A., like Fire Shark.

Sfx? In Musha? I'll concede they're probably more distinct on real hardware, esp if you're playing on a VA6 with its excessive bass, but I really don't hear much other than little pops under all that metal guitar. DS I also play on Fusion so it's a level field. Sfx in shooters are little but an opportunity for irritation, vastly too frequent to be of appeal. Neither's are annoying.

Well, IMO there's no problem or any big difference about playing these games using Kega Fusion. But, yes, I use a VA6. The sound is just a tad more bassy and kinda unfiltered when compared to the Kega Fusion.
However, I think that your speaker/hi-fi stereo/surround sytem/whatever setup is what really matters here. Using regular CRT TV speakers or PC speakers you'll be missing lots of things... Some due to the fact that bad/cheap speakers will not provide "fidelity" about very low and very high frequencies, some due to the miss placing of the set (you need to use some good space between the speakers in order to feel the panning effects/stereo sensation) and some others 'cause your set just don't have any power to give you a "bass punch" when it should...
My sound setup is nothing spectacular, just a 800W RMS Toshiba hi-fi stero with subwoofer and a lot of equalization settings; but it represents an abysmal step-up from the regular stereo TV speakers... Some games like M.U.S.H.A. or Bio Hazard Battle will sound annoying sometimes if you don't use a proper sound system, 'cause they use very high frequencies and deep bass, respectively, most of the time. Also, M.U.S.H.A. provides some surprisingly good panning effects that you won't notice with small/cheap speakers.

I like that 'roughness', it's what I termed 'solidity', and why I generally prefer NES graphics to 16 bit, Genesis to SNES, PS/SS and PS2 to PS3/360. Floating sprites, of which HD is the polygon equivalent, do not look good. That doesn't mean they can't be smooth when integrated (Aladdin, Mickey Mania, Sonic 2), but smooth when not integrated looks cheap and silly, or, as in Musha's case, when integrated but unsuccessful looks flat. TFIII looks solid to degrees that vary by lv; likewise Curse; on more illustrious ground it's also why Sonic 1 looks better than 2 apart from instances of sheer design (Hilltop Zone outcharms most of Sonic 1, and Aquatic Ruin Zone is matchless). DS is substantial in something of a Verytex fashion. Phelios, on [I]Normal[I], has a superbly balanced tension that does pick up in places; Musha is just fast. Hype means as little to me as does mass opinion. I'm not enamoured, bored, disappointed, or disgusted by games according to whether they were the top selling titles of any given year or get swoony 10/10s at Sega-16. Musha's just a ROM I loaded. Sometimes those ROMs are great fun, sometimes they're Fantasia.

I understand your point, there's always the personal taste "factor".

Anyway, I like to discuss about details and I think it will provide some extra information to the people that intend to buy the game and for those that just want to give it a try in Kega Fusion.

[Curryman123]

Sold my cart for 70 bucks. Sure won't be missed by me. : P

Now to get Raiden Project and Android Assault.

[StarMist]

~~~ animation >>>
Well, the best one in this matter is Crying (Bio Hazard Battle). OK, it's a 1992 game but most of the time it's full of rich animation. The later levels are mind-blowing to say the least. If you don't know it, you should give it a try 'cause you'll probably love the damn thing. IMO only Neo Geo will show better animations than this game in the 16-bit world.

I beat it a month ago: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post424254 (post 247--I recall your weapon advice to robivy and am interested to see what you make of my hint here).
BHB's graphics are a puzzling mixture of 32, 16, and 8 bit. The leeches' and centipedes' animations are superb = 32. The ships' sprites and many of the backgrounds are 16 bit. The ships' stiffness, most of the enemies, and some of the backgrounds, are 8. Master System rather than NES 8 bit.

Well, IMO there's no problem or any big difference about playing these games using Kega Fusion. But, yes, I use a VA6. The sound is just a tad more bassy and kinda unfiltered when compared to the Kega Fusion.

I normally play with headphones straight off the PC--not with PC/ipod/&c headphones, real ones--but sometimes also output to my stereo (an older Integra), and always play real hardware through my stereo. I do alter the acoustics by way of the equalizer and other electronics but always play at least a test under standard settings so I can be sure what the game really sounds like. I prefer my model 2 Genesis (stereo cord) for its more balanced sound. Eg Twin Cobra sounds ridiculous on the VA6, every explosion sounds like someone jumping on a cardboard box. Phantasy Star II has an unpleasant isolated-bass sound, like a subwoofer's effect (I prefer bass to be produced by one's regular speakers).

Fusion loses a lot of mid range sound and compresses high treble. For instance the lead on Sol Deace's second song sounds over tuned (compression) and over amplified (due to mid range loss, making it stand out too much). Fire Shark has a cheap electric guitar sound in either case but it's less annoying on real hardware.
If you want to get into it further I could check SOR2 and Rolling Thunder 2 on Fusion. (PSII will not be played on it again).

[Curryman123]

@StarMist

I can't join the shmups comp right now. After the 18th I can.

[streetsofrage]

i have this game in mint condition , my plan is to sell it in 10 years for $500+

[masterturk]

Musha is the one of my favourite games now.. Its on the same par as my favourite games on the megadrive/genesis streets of rage series..

Anyone that says otherwise must be hyped because they can't afford it haha

The game is so difficult finished it last night but i had to do the power up cheat all throughout the last level the amount of times i put it in, i have now memorised it

This game is damn hard even on easy well for me...

Does anyone know how to do the level select code it never seems to work? where you have to reset the megadrive 10 times? it says hold left how can you and got to options does it mean on another controller..

[thesegadude]

Some good comments here. I was surprised to read that some people don't think M.U.S.H.A. is a good shooter. If you like that style of game I thought for sure M.U.S.H.A. would be a winner. But of course, each to their own.
Personally both back in the day and even now I feel this is a great shmups. However, I always thought it was a very hard game! I only ever played on normal and I found it devastating when I lost my power-ups.
Is it worth $60 (complete and in excellent shape)? I'd say no but only because I feel that is just too much to spend on a retro video game. Even though I have spent more.
I have spent $100 (all in) each for two games:
Pier Solar - Posterity Ed.
Tetris - bootleg

Pier Solar because I was really excited about an all new game created for the Genesis and Tetris because I use to have it and missed it and because it will be the closest I ever come to having the real Tetris (the rarest game for the Mega Drive).

I may have paid $50-$60 (all in) for a small handful of others but I never felt great about it. I try to do without or wait for a good deal to show up.

[Josh]

Here are some cheat codes for M.U.S.H.A.


Fully powered up M.U.S.H.A.
Pause the game and press B, B, C, B, B, C, Up, Down, A.


5 extra lives.
Pause the game and press Right, Down, Right, Down, Left, Up, Left, Up, B, C, A, Start.


Begin the game with 20 options.
Pause the game and press Up, Up, Up, Down, Down, Down, Left, Left, Left, Right, Right, Right, C, C, B, A, Start.


Round Select.
When the SEGA logo appears when you turn on the console, reset the system and do this nine more times. Let the game go to the title screen after the tenth time doing this, then hold left and down when you enter the options menu.

[Genesis Knight]

Is it worth $60 (complete and in excellent shape)? I'd say no but only because I feel that is just too much to spend on a retro video game. Even though I have spent more.

These days a $60 CIB MUSHA is a deal waiting to be snatched from your clammy hands. In before that one guy saying "Well I got my MUSHA for $5 from Goodwill, but, lol, I don't expect everyone to pay that little".

I mean, look at this piece of shit, already past $60: http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-U-S-H-A-Se...ht_2258wt_1395

[xelement5x]

These days a $60 CIB MUSHA is a deal waiting to be snatched from your clammy hands. In before that one guy saying "Well I got my MUSHA for $5 from Goodwill, but, lol, I don't expect everyone to pay that little".

I mean, look at this piece of shit, already past $60: http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-U-S-H-A-Se...ht_2258wt_1395

I can't tell if that lettering on the manual says "VID GO BAM" or "VID GO BARN", either way it's hilarious.

[jerry coeurl]

I think it says VIDEO BARN.

Here are some cheat codes for M.U.S.H.A.


Fully powered up M.U.S.H.A.
Pause the game and press B, B, C, B, B, C, Up, Down, A.


5 extra lives.
Pause the game and press Right, Down, Right, Down, Left, Up, Left, Up, B, C, A, Start.


Begin the game with 20 options.
Pause the game and press Up, Up, Up, Down, Down, Down, Left, Left, Left, Right, Right, Right, C, C, B, A, Start.


Round Select.
When the SEGA logo appears when you turn on the console, reset the system and do this nine more times. Let the game go to the title screen after the tenth time doing this, then hold left and down when you enter the options menu.

I'll mess around with these, thanks!