Atari Jaguar

[TheEdge]

I spoke to a Jaguar developer once, and I commented that that Jaguar must have had a lot of untapped potential, considering the hardware and the games that did come out. He told me that the Jag hardware "sounds more impressive on paper" than it really is, and its structure is just too weird and has a lot of bottlenecks. He thought the 3DO and even 32x were probably much superior ("probably" because he hadn't worked on those systems).

None of the Jaguar homebrew has been terribly impressive. The best Jag fans can point to is Skyhammer, which looks nice at first glance, but has a terrible draw distance, poor framerate, worse framerate when more than one enemy is on screen, and is overall very slow-moving. It definitely doesn't make me think the system is comparable to Playstation or Saturn. It doesn't even stack up to the Playstation version of Descent. The draw distance is about as bad as AMOK -- but AMOK uses voxel rendering, has relatively open environments (Skyhammer is very corridor-y), moves pretty fast, has a decent framerate, and maintains its framerate with several enemies around.

Wow, I never new Jaguar hardware was that messed up. Atari really dropped the ball on that one.

[jesus.arnold]

You clearly didn't get what we were talking about. You can't compare personal computers used for gaming against game consoles. They're two different markets targeting two different groups.

Not in the UK they were not, you don't listen at all. In the UK People bought an Amiga to play games, nobody bought a NES for anything, people who bought NES' in the UK were taken the piss out of by everyone else as consoles were seen as little kiddies toys, they were only owned by children under 11 (which is pretty much why my generation owned consoles, then when we grew up we stuck with them)

You assume that since they're both electronic and play games that they should be directly comparable

No you assume that just because home computers were never a force in the video game market in the US that you should only ever expect them to be low selling niche products that need to be separated from mass market consoles.

If someone put an Amiga in a cabinet with a controller coming out playing Rainbow Islands and someone else put a NES in another cabinet with Rainbow Islands and a controller coming out apart from load times THERE WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO.

Might as well trying comparing to Tamagotchis while you're at it. They were electronic and played a game, so they should be directly comparable, right? Wrong.

Tamagotchis have nothing to do with anything, they are not comparable at all.

Home Computers and Consoles were exactly the same apart from the fact that home computers could be used for other things on top of gaming as a bonus. In fact, with that in mind home computers should be expected to sell more than consoles, not have people making excuses for them like "oh it's a completely different market, one is for people who want to play games and the other is for people who want to play games and be able to do other things as well"

[j_factor]

Why wouldn't I bring up the NES?!!? you're all saying that the Amiga was a popular games machine in the US, you can't just say "oh but the NES doesn't count" it's pretty blatantly obvious that the NES was the mass market machine to play games on in the US, just the very fact that you guys are limiting your talk about the Amiga to the home computer gaming market shows that the machine had niche appeal there.

Nobody in the UK would talk like this, you know why? because here the Amiga completely destroyed the NES in sales, it completely destroyed the SNES in sales and it probably outsold the Mega Drive too (there was an age split between the two so it's hard for me to tell, younger people from my generation seem to have prefered the Sega machines whilst the older ones started off with Spectrums and then stuck with C64s and Amiga's until the PS1 arrived) it was one of the most popular and biggest selling games machines of that time here

But that's not what anyone was talking about. We were talking about the Amiga as against the DOS (and to a lesser extent, Macintosh and ST) game market. Once again, the Game Boy outsold both Genesis and SNES.

the only reason why this discussion started was just because I was saying to Blammo in case he didn't know, that Amiga's aren't owned by everyone in the US in the same way that they were in the UK and that it might not be that easy to get hold of an Amiga and a copy of Cannon Fodder for you lot in comparison to how ridiculously easy this is for us.

And as I explained earlier, computers aren't treated the same way in the US. It's easier to find a Master System here than it is to find a Commodore 64 -- and the C64 sold significantly more units than the SMS.

Not in the UK they were not, you don't listen at all. In the UK People bought an Amiga to play games, nobody bought a NES for anything, people who bought NES' in the UK were taken the piss out of by everyone else as consoles were seen as little kiddies toys, they were only owned by children under 11 (which is pretty much why my generation owned consoles, then when we grew up we stuck with them)

Nobody but you was ever talking about the UK, sorry.

No you assume that just because home computers were never a force in the video game market in the US that you should only ever expect them to be low selling niche products that need to be separated from mass market consoles.

If someone put an Amiga in a cabinet with a controller coming out playing Rainbow Islands and someone else put a NES in another cabinet with Rainbow Islands and a controller coming out apart from load times THERE WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO.

Tamagotchis have nothing to do with anything, they are not comparable at all.

Home Computers and Consoles were exactly the same apart from the fact that home computers could be used for other things on top of gaming as a bonus. In fact, with that in mind home computers should be expected to sell more than consoles, not have people making excuses for them like "oh it's a completely different market, one is for people who want to play games and the other is for people who want to play games and be able to do other things as well"

There was a huge difference. Most home computers at that time in the US weren't bought for gaming at all. They didn't do other things as a bonus on top of gaming, they played games as a little-used bonus on top of doing other things. When the Amiga 500 came out, it sold for $600 -- and that was considered cheap. The only consoles to have that kind of price point were the Halcyon, Neo Geo, LaserActive, 3DO -- flops that sold fewer units than the Amiga in the US. Meanwhile, computers were commonly much more expensive. When the A500 came out, an equivalent Macintosh would cost around three times as much. And in terms of units sold, the Mac line was more popular here -- but the Amiga was the stronger games market, which brings us back to what we were saying originally.

[nonner242]

Wow, I never new Jaguar hardware was that messed up. Atari really dropped the ball on that one.

Better (if not more fun) 3-D titles than Skyhammer:

SkyHammer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Jh79AdVSo
Battle Sphere (networked 8players in this video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OogwE...eature=related
Tempest 2000 (Best Music of Any Version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf-RL...eature=related
Zero Five (I love this game 3modes of play)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjRi...eature=related
Phase Zero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DOnv...eature=related

[Joe Redifer]

The sound effects on Tempest 2000 are too loud. Is there any way to lower the sound effects volume in the Saturn version?

[jesus.arnold]

But that's not what anyone was talking about. We were talking about the Amiga as against the DOS (and to a lesser extent, Macintosh and ST) game market.

you're basically saying that the Amiga was popular because it outsold loads of other systems that were really unpopular?

The C64 was selling 2 million a year during the mid 80s, thats over twice the lifetime sales of the "UBER" popular Amiga every year for 3-4 years

Even in 89' the aging C64 was still outselling the Amiga

Once again, the Game Boy outsold both Genesis and SNES.

Ok what is with this completely RETARDED comparison with the Gameboy?!?!? the Gameboy is not the same market as consoles/home computers, you do not buy a Gameboy to play at home on a TV, the gameboy market was based on PORTABILITY and there was no realistic competition for it whilst it was out.

Why do people buy consoles? to sit down, plug it into their TV grab a controller and play games

Why did people buy home computers? to sit down, plug it into their TV (or monitor if they wanted to) and play games and/or to do work on

The home computer demographic included the whole of the console demographic, the opposite is however not true as you can't do work on a console.

computers aren't treated the same way in the US. It's easier to find a Master System here than it is to find a Commodore 64 -- and the C64 sold significantly more units than the SMS.

This is the same in the UK, I found my 1st Amiga thrown out with the garbage in the street and the 2nd one I found down a flea market for £3, people don't try to sell computers they just throw them away.

When the Amiga 500 came out, it sold for $600 -- and that was considered cheap.

Yes and after a few years the price dropped and was affordable, exactly the same as it was here.

[jesus.arnold]

Lets just go over what we've had so far in this discussion -

The Amiga was UBER popular

me - But it was massively outsold by the NES

No! The Amiga was an Uber popular computer

Me - But it was massively outsold by the IBM PC

Er, no, I meant to say it was an UBER popular computer FOR GAMING

Me - The C64 outsold the Amiga by a substantial amount every year they were simultaneously on sale until around 91' right at the end of the US Amiga's lifetime, so the Amiga only really outsold it's inferior powered precursor for no more than around a year before it's US death.

No, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, I meant the Amiga was an UBER popular 16 BIT computer used primarily for gaming

Me - My good sir, you are running towards smaller and smaller, more and more specific market niches in an attempt to prove how popular the Amiga was, whilst in actual fact just proving how specific a niche market it actually catered to.

[Chilly Willy]

Ok what is with this completely RETARDED comparison with the Gameboy?!?!? the Gameboy is not the same market as consoles/home computers, you do not buy a Gameboy to play at home on a TV, the gameboy market was based on PORTABILITY and there was no realistic competition for it whilst it was out.

Why are you complaining? YOU'RE the one that said ANY game machine was a valid comparison. Now you're whining because someone made you look stupid? Can't have it both ways. If you can compare an old 8-bit console to a 16-bit home computer sold at different times, you'll have to accept a handheld console as well.

[jesus.arnold]

Why are you complaining? YOU'RE the one that said ANY game machine was a valid comparison. Now you're whining because someone made you look stupid?

Nobody needs to make you look stupid, you pretty much do that with every post you make yourself, I mean seriously, everything i've ever seen you write was subsequently disproved as being wrong about 2 posts later.

Can't have it both ways. If you can compare an old 8-bit console to a 16-bit home computer sold at different times, you'll have to accept a handheld console as well.

What? the NES and the Amiga were both being sold at the same time, in fact the NES actually came out just before the Amiga (I think) and lasted until well after it had died.

They're both bought to attach to a TV (or monitor in the Amiga case, though I never did that myself) and play games on, the Gameboy was bought so you could play games on the move how has that got anything to do with anything?

[Joe Redifer]

What about the Super Gameboy that could be played on the SNES? I'm sure some people who didn't own GameBoys bought that.

If Chilly Willy is dumb, I'd like to see smart! Imagine the 32X games we'd be playing then!

[nonner242]

The sound effects on Tempest 2000 are too loud. Is there any way to lower the sound effects volume in the Saturn version?

You can adjust the SFX & Music in the Jaguar & Saturn Vesions...But Saturns Music is Totallay Different than Jags...Its the Remixed CD soundtrack that came out for Jag CD...It blows compaired to the Original.

[gamevet]

The Amiga was uber popular for computer gamers. People didn't buy it to do spreadsheets, word processing or bring their work home. The Amiga was a gaming computer and nothing more.

When the Amiga was hitting its prime, the games on it were far superior to anything the PC had to offer. I remember my PC friend going nuts over Harpoon (A big seller on the PC at the time) and when I saw him playing the game, I was totally floored by how piss-poor the game looked and sounded. Harpoon could just as easily been played on a C64 and it would probably have better sound.

The PC may have outsold (during that time) the Amiga, Atari ST and Mac computers, but 90% of those PCs were sitting in offices running spread sheets and office software.

The PC wasn't really a gaming computer, until real sound cards and video boards were introduced in the late 80s and early 90s. The Amiga and the other Motorola powered computers were the driving force behing the changes that happened in the PC gaming world.

[Joe Redifer]

You can adjust the SFX & Music in the Jaguar & Saturn Vesions...But Saturns Music is Totallay Different than Jags...Its the Remixed CD soundtrack that came out for Jag CD...It blows compaired to the Original.

I just listened to them both and I definitely prefer the CD version. The Jag sounds kind of tinny to me, like it doesn't have a large frequency response.

[nonner242]

Jag with T2K hooked up on my Big TV or Stereo sounds perfect. Are you talking about the real hardware or youtube? If its the real deal make sure to pick up the stereo cables for jag////big difference from RF.

[Chilly Willy]

Nobody needs to make you look stupid, you pretty much do that with every post you make yourself, I mean seriously, everything i've ever seen you write was subsequently disproved as being wrong about 2 posts later.

You're the one looking like an idiot here, and your statement just makes you look worse. You've been proven wrong, and now you're just flailing around making personal attacks since you don't have a leg to stand on. It's rather sad, actually.

What? the NES and the Amiga were both being sold at the same time, in fact the NES actually came out just before the Amiga (I think) and lasted until well after it had died.

Yeah, you're confused all right. The Amiga had several models out over a decade. They weren't the same, and were aimed at different markets. To say that they were ALL in competition with the NES just proves how little you understand the argument.

They're both bought to attach to a TV (or monitor in the Amiga case, though I never did that myself) and play games on, the Gameboy was bought so you could play games on the move how has that got anything to do with anything?

My Dish Network receiver attaches to a TV, and you can play games on it, so it's also part of the competition, right? That seems to be what you're saying. Come to think of it, my DVD player also hooks to the TV and plays games. Do you see the problem here? Apparently not. You just don't understand.