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kool kitty89
02-04-2010, 06:51 PM
This has come up several times, and I've gone back an for personally, but redirected from a recent tangent:


We've had a long debate about Stolar and other things here:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9811
Which I was quite involved in. ;)





Personally I think that it might have played into Peter Moore's decision to cancel Dreamcast, but I don't think it would have had any significant impact otherwise.

Copying during with PS1 was insane, even when Saturn was still around, yet sales exploded 1997-2001, when CD-Rs and CD burners were getting cheaper and cheaper.

I don't know anyone who downloaded stuff when Dreamcast was still around. The sold hardware vs sold software ratio was insanely high. And the internet was still a 56k wasteland at that time.
I'm really not sure Moore was the deciding factor on that, he could have beenm but it's not clear to me wether or not he justed ended up being the one getting stuck with the dirty work (and SoJ was behind him for th ecancellation), or it was really his decision. (and/or he had his own agenda)



Piracy didn't kill the Dreamcast as most people would like to claim. A lack of trust in the brand is why it failed. It's certainly why I didn't own a Dreamcast until after they went under.
I never said pircay killed the DC, and the CD-R problem was just one element of th epicture, but not an insignificant one.
It wasn't the actual act of piracy, but th eperceived threat by Developers which was the problem.

And of course casual downloading/buring type piracy wasn't yet practical (and peer to peer trading/swapping of burned discs wouldn't be that significant either), and as mentioned you couldn't just rip the GD-ROMs on a PC.
However, that vulnerability would certainyl facilitate less casual bootleggers who would actually be selling/distributing bootleg copies. So it would be more than just a perceived threat in that respect.

So any thoughts on this?

Knuckle Duster
02-04-2010, 07:36 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/1/lebowskiopinion.jpg

retrospiel
02-04-2010, 07:43 PM
It did not play any role of significance in its demise as Dreamcast was cancelled. It didn't just stop selling, they cancelled the damn thing in 01/2001, some 15 months after its launch - even before Phantasy Star Online (v1) was released.


However, I can't deny that there is a possibility that the fact of the existance of an exploit allowing to run unlicensed code was among the things considered when Peter Moore came up with the decision to cancel the machine.

MUCH more likely however, is that the guy just canceled Dreamcast because Microsoft wanted him to manage Xbox, and Sega of Japan to produce Xbox games, both of which then happend, although Sega's exclusive Xbox games (Shenmue 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Jet Set Radio Future, etc.pp.) all were phenomenal commercial failures, and Sega of Japan wasn't stupid enough to keep up doing what Moore wanted: Outside of those 12 or so games that he arranged for Xbox exclusivity, most Sega stuff ended up on PS2 and GameCube.



http://uk.retro.ign.com/articles/974/974695p1.html


More competition was brewing on the horizon as well. Sony and Nintendo were anticipated by all, but Microsoft, the new generation's dark horse, surprised a few. It was no shock, however, to Stolar. Early in the Dreamcast's life, they came to SEGA "offering" to put Windows CE on the Dreamcast, a move that Stolar saw as a transparent Trojan horse to get into the hardware business. He explains his frustrations:

"[Microsoft] brought a whole team of people in. They got to learn the business and then walk away." -- Bernie Stolar

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6023&highlight=xbox
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showpost.php?p=107273&postcount=58



excerpt from the book 'Opening The Xbox' - pages 192-193:

Quote:
Shoichiro Irimajiri, who was the CEO of Sega Enterprises in Japan, said his company was surprised to learn first from other game developers that Microsoft was planning to enter the console business. He was angry that he hadn't heard it from Microsoft first. His complaints led to meetings to discuss whether Microsoft and Sega could work together on the next-generation console. At first, he wasn't interested in selling out to Microsoft because the Dreamcast appeared to be doing well in the United States. The Microsoft side was equally lukewarm to the idea

"Every time we looked at them, we thought all we wanted was the software," said Chris Phillips, who managed the Sega relationship until he left Microsoft in early 2000. "They weren't willing to sell just their software business. They wanted Microsoft to do a box that could combine the Xbox and the Dreamcast2."




Sega-Microsoft Ties Are Over?
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2577163.html

* By Ike Sato, GameSpot
* Posted May 25, 2000 5:44 pm PT

Nikkei Computer reports that ties between Sega and Microsoft are over -- the comment comes from CSK chairman and newly appointed president of Sega of Japan, Isao Okawa. In the past, both companies have had strong ties in the development of the Dreamcast console, where a customized version of Windows CE is used as the machine's OS. Sega has also been working closely with Microsoft's console Xbox, until negotiations broke down regarding a possible Dreamcast compatibility. Previously, it was mentioned that one of Sega's future roles with Microsoft was to become the OEM manufacturer of the Xbox, but with Okawa's recent comment, that possibility is now even slimmer.

"Sega will now be working on network-related projects without the help of Microsoft, and is currently developing the succesor to the Dreamcast - a completely separate hardware from the Xbox," Nikkei Computer reports.


Which never happened. Because after Peter Moore announced the Dreamcast's discontinuation Sega's stock became better toilet paper.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2008/sep/11/gamesinterviews.microsoft1


So on January 31 2001 we said Sega is leaving hardware – somehow I got to make that call, not the Japanese. I had to fire a lot of people, it was not a pleasant day.

Moore didn't get fired though, he found a better job a Microsoft, overseeing the Xbox launch.



NO ONE has EVER survived making a deal with Microsoft. They either get absorbed completely, or run into the ground. In either case, the company is gone for good. MS is like the Borg in that respect. :)

Knuckle Duster
02-04-2010, 08:34 PM
The Dreamcast was a swansong for Sega from day one.

If you look at the zeitgeist back in 2000, the public and the industry threw minimal interest behind it, & since Electronic Arts didn't support it; the incentive wasn't there to buy it for the sports franchises. It didn't have a chance when compared to Sony's marketing hype behind DVD, & their new-found 'shift' to milking the Playstation's brand name instead of release quality software themselves. It's just a coincidence or a testament to their greatness, depending whom you ask; that Sega pushed the Dreamcast as far as they did, while doing everything perfectly, without any real faults.

It certainly wasn't Sega's marketing that drove sales, since 'nobody' had faith in them, but the adoption rate of the hardware excelled from word-of-mouth & first hand experience with the hardware & software quality. It was still expected to fail, just after the PS2 killed it's momentum, & not the company folding on itself. That is to say; the only "What If" I can see from that era stems more from the shit-show Sony put out with the first year of the PS2. It's reliability & software sucked.

I doubt that anybody in the industry had faith & were genuinely satisfied with returns on Sega hardware, since 1993/1994. It was all downhill from there. Especially with the boom in developers completely alienated by their skyrocketing irrelevance. Sega 'never' won them over and instead estranged itself from EA who wanted to 'play hardball' while throwing them a life-line.

Or a TL;DR version of what Sega was doing with the DC:
LEMdP_tlnlE

Silanda
02-04-2010, 08:48 PM
Personally I think it was the straw that broke the camels back. Once it was figured out how to extract GD-ROMs, the lack of copy protection made obtaining and burning copies rather easy (the DC was the easiest system to run copies on since the 3DO, but the 3DO had the advantage of no widespread availability of burners at that time). Even if piracy hadn't hit sales that badly by the time the DC was canceled, the knowledge that rampant piracy would have a considerable effect on sales in the future must have factored in to the decision to kill it. Perhaps things would have been different if Sega hadn't been bleeding money.

retrospiel
02-04-2010, 08:54 PM
KD worded it much better than I could:



Copying during with PS1 was insane, even when Saturn was still around, yet sales exploded 1997-2001, when CD-Rs and CD burners were getting cheaper and cheaper.

I don't know anyone who downloaded stuff when Dreamcast was still around. The sold hardware vs sold software ratio was insanely high. And the internet was still a 56k wasteland at that time.

I'm not sure if you're stating the point I'm making here or not;

You didn't need a modchip, but you needed to download the iso's and even then they weren't perfect. With large files, file corruption, & burning software not really having good buffers yet; it paints the picture perfectly, of why piracy was a pain in the ass back then for Dreamcast.

With the PSOne, you could 'rent or borrow' the games & rip them yourself. If the DC had this flaw, it would have been more successful from a hardware sales standpoint.

Piracy didn't kill the Dreamcast as most people would like to claim. A lack of trust in the brand is why it failed. It's certainly why I didn't own a Dreamcast until after they went under.

17daysolderthannes
02-04-2010, 09:02 PM
The reality is a non-issue, if you discover your games can be ripped and burned and then played on an un-modded system, you're done. Metallica probably didn't lose much money over Napster (in fact, IIRC CDs had higher sales after its introduction), but that didn't stop Lars Ulrich from going apeshit over it. Unless someone has official data, I don't buy the "Sega was bleeding money" and "no one trusted them anymore" BS. Everyone I knew that had a Dreamcast loved it. In many ways, the Dreamcast was a Wii before the Wii being centered around multi-player arcade action with a low base price (except it didn't suck like the Wii) and I don't see any reason it couldn't have succeeded alongside the PS2 and XBOX like the Wii does alongside the PS3 and XBOX 360. The biggest reasons for me skipping on the DC was that I had just got an N64 ?a year? and I had a few PSX games for my commercial PSX emulator (connectix virtual game station) so I wanted the PS2 for backwards compatibility. IIRC the DVD player capabilities is how I sold it to my mom as well. Had I been older/had a job at the time, I probably would've bought a DC and played it with an ear to ear smile.

Silanda
02-04-2010, 09:06 PM
Two posts up: Some flaws with that logic. Firstly it wasn't hard to burn DC discs back in the day, the software was good enough and I never had one coaster due to buffer underruns. Secondly, once one person had a copy, that copy could itself be shared and copied by all their friends making distribution easy. Thirdly, since Sega were losing money on each console sold I don't think greater hardware sales would have helped if they weren't making enough back with the software.

Silanda
02-04-2010, 09:13 PM
Unless someone has official data, I don't buy the "Sega was bleeding money" and "no one trusted them anymore" BS.

Sega posted a $418 million loss in FY2001, and that was its fourth year of large losses. For a relatively small company with one main product, that's bleeding money.

retrospiel
02-04-2010, 09:17 PM
That's a good point with sharing copies among friends, but that FY2001 loss is because of DC's discontinuation, not because they kept supporting it (they didn't: Moore announced DC's discontinuation in January 2001).

And yeah, had they kept up with supporting DC (even when still going third-party): Once the PS2 craze was over, sales would have picked up again. But what they did was scorched earth*.

In the review that makes it seem a lot like in that Dragonball video. ^ ^




* - in the West, in Japan the thing got supported until 2007.

Knuckle Duster
02-04-2010, 09:31 PM
Back when it mattered; Buffer protection was practically non-existent, but that argument is a moot point that effected everything else as well.

The fastest & still rarely adopted speeds were 1.5-3mb connections, with most still on dial up & the methods of which people commonly shared the files (iMesh swarming) didn't protect from file corruption. Throw that in with 'Copies of copies' running into a cascade failure & it has even more 'instability' in contrast with the alternative scenario.

It's a huge pain in the ass compared to directly backing up the physical media, especially in those days.

roundwars
02-04-2010, 10:36 PM
Secondly, once one person had a copy, that copy could itself be shared and copied by all their friends making distribution easy.

Well sure, if a typical person owning a Dreamcast had 4-5 friends who also owned one, then that could have been a widespread phenomenon. But if it had managed to get that popular in the first place then Sega would still be making money off of it despite piracy.

j_factor
02-04-2010, 10:36 PM
I really don't think it had anything to do with it. They could have simply revised the console so that further units couldn't read CD-R's (and I've seen it claimed that they did so with the very last units, but I've yet to see it really confirmed).

Does anybody remember exactly when "easy" DC piracy started happening? It couldn't have been more than a few months before its cancellation. I know the Utopia boot disc came out in June or July, 2000. But at first, the only rips came from piracy groups. I remember that a lot of the early rips had graphical glitches and other problems. And it was a while before a lot of the less-popular games had been ripped. You couldn't just put a GD-ROM in your computer, rip it, and share the file. And let's not forget that back then, not a huge percentage of people had broadband. Downloading a file of that size over dial-up would take a good 24 hours, and that's assuming your connection never drops.


Sega posted a $418 million loss in FY2001, and that was its fourth year of large losses. For a relatively small company with one main product, that's bleeding money.

But they continued to bleed money until well after the Dreamcast was behind them. Going third party didn't help them, or at least not much.

retrospiel
02-04-2010, 10:58 PM
Discontinuing Dreamcast cost them money, A LOT of money. Okawa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isao_Okawa#Honors) gave the company seven hundred million dollars (!) before he died, and it still could not prevent the Sammy takeover two years later.



Anway, here's an interesting work about Piracy and Dreamcast's discontinuation:
http://xiaopang333.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/piracy-killed-the-dreamcastor-did-it/ - I disagree about a lot of things, especially on the Xbox/Microsoft thing, but then again, half of the info I posted above didn't exist at the time the guy wrote this.

rift
02-05-2010, 01:00 AM
I can only speak anecdotally (which is not scientific at all), but I knew very, very few people who had copied PS2 games, while EVERYONE I knew with a dreamcast had a whole spindle of copied games.

Of course, a crapload of people made use of copied PSX games, but that seemed to be later on in the system's life, after it had already taken over.

Iron Lizard
02-05-2010, 01:11 AM
I only knew a few kids that even realized games could be burnt. When it became "popular" and I hesitate to use that term the DC had already been canceled. Dial up didn't help anything either. I didn't help the DC but I really don't think it killed it. Had it lasted longer I do think it would have become a major problem.

Nobi
02-05-2010, 01:39 AM
here is what killed the dreamcast:

NO DVD!:horse:

17daysolderthannes
02-05-2010, 01:52 AM
Sega posted a $418 million loss in FY2001, and that was its fourth year of large losses. For a relatively small company with one main product, that's bleeding money.

source?

and also, as christuserloeser pointed out, that was the year the DC was discontinued. If you're taking notes, Microsoft has never made a cent off of either XBOX (in fact they are BILLIONS in the hole thanks to RROD) and Sony is still far from recouping PS3 expenses (or even PSP for that matter). It takes several years to really profit from video game hardware and the DC never got far enough. So, to be succinct, I don't buy that as the excuse.


I really don't think it had anything to do with it. They could have simply revised the console so that further units couldn't read CD-R's (and I've seen it claimed that they did so with the very last units, but I've yet to see it really confirmed).

Does anybody remember exactly when "easy" DC piracy started happening? It couldn't have been more than a few months before its cancellation. I know the Utopia boot disc came out in June or July, 2000. But at first, the only rips came from piracy groups. I remember that a lot of the early rips had graphical glitches and other problems. And it was a while before a lot of the less-popular games had been ripped. You couldn't just put a GD-ROM in your computer, rip it, and share the file. And let's not forget that back then, not a huge percentage of people had broadband. Downloading a file of that size over dial-up would take a good 24 hours, and that's assuming your connection never drops.



But they continued to bleed money until well after the Dreamcast was behind them. Going third party didn't help them, or at least not much.

#1 there were already tons that COULD read the discs. Even worse, typically the "hardcore" players are usually first to adopt while more casual players tend to buy it off the clearance rack while it's on its way out. Therefore, the people that would be buying multiple games would be the same that would likely have a CD-R compatible DC. I mean, Sony tried to get rid of custom firmware starting with the last revision of PSP 2000, yet plenty of people have 1000s and 2000s still and people have even found exploits to install it on 3000s and GOs, so it wouldn't have accomplished much.

#2 it doesn't matter if everyone is a 1337 H4xOr bR04dBanD D0wN104dEr because in large cities people will just eventually find out about "that guy" that DOES know how to do it and everyone will buy copies off of him for a fraction of the retail price. If you walk down the street in NYC, you are bound to see a dude selling bootleg DVDs off of a blanket on the sidewalk, so I would imagine this would be the same thing. I wouldn't even be surprised if you could buy copies from a sketchy website on the then-fledgling internet.

kool kitty89
02-05-2010, 05:23 AM
and "no one trusted them anymore" BS. Yes, except from the standpoint of developers of course (where they were a bit iffy over Sega's past mistakes and then that CD-R fiasco kind of topped things off), but that's not the context which was being implied by that stantement, so this response is a bit superfulous.



Everyone I knew that had a Dreamcast loved it. In many ways, the Dreamcast was a Wii before the Wii being centered around multi-player arcade action with a low base price (except it didn't suck like the Wii) and I don't see any reason it couldn't have succeeded alongside the PS2 and XBOX like the Wii does alongside the PS3 and XBOX 360. I've seen this too, several people I know, one being a close freind got Dreamcasts, all of whom had either not had a console for many years (one older who I think had an atari back in the 80s, maybe another with an NES) or had never owned a game console (that close freind was a PC gamer exclusively). And you know what, in all cases of these people, they dropped consoles again after the DC died, not even the Wii changing this. (that close friend went back to PC gaming exclusively)
So anecdotally, I'd definitely agree. In fact, the DC was the first non-nintendo game consoel which really caught my eye at in-store demos. (the N64 had doen that, mainly with Star Fox 64 at Fry's and Blockbuster, later Rogue Squadron -which we ended up getting for PC before we even bought an N64 anyway) I was glued to the DC display at frys any time I was there, an usually it was just crazy taxi! (granted I was even more drawn to SSBM when it was on display with a 4-player set-up and bigscreen a couple years later)


IIRC the DVD player capabilities is how I sold it to my mom as well. Had I been older/had a job at the time, I probably would've bought a DC and played it with an ear to ear smile.
Yeah, we never applied to the DVD functionality attraction as we'd been DVD capable since ~1998 ('99 at the latest) via DVD ROM drive on our PC and a composite video cable to our 27" trinitron in the family room (plus audio lines to the stereo/surround system). That wouldn't have been the average family though ;). (we later ended up getting a nice JVC DVD player when they dropped below $100, mainly out of convienience -and component video functionality, albeit I think we got it propr to having a component capable TV)



Well sure, if a typical person owning a Dreamcast had 4-5 friends who also owned one, then that could have been a widespread phenomenon. But if it had managed to get that popular in the first place then Sega would still be making money off of it despite piracy.
Yes, I mentioned that, small scale casual priacy via peer-to peer swapping (as with floppies or casettes -the latter moreso in EU)

That's not as serious of a thereat though, fast internet came later, and the real threat would have been actual bootleggers IMO. (even then it's not THAT serious in practice)



I can only speak anecdotally (which is not scientific at all), but I knew very, very few people who had copied PS2 games, while EVERYONE I knew with a dreamcast had a whole spindle of copied games.
And this was durring the DC's life? (ie by 2001, not 2003, or even 2002, 2001 or earlier)


Of course, a crapload of people made use of copied PSX games, but that seemed to be later on in the system's life, after it had already taken over.
PSX games are easy to copy, PC can read PSX CDs, they can't read GDROMs AFIK. (it was the exploit of using a DC to read the disc and stream data to a PC whihc allowed dumps -and soem games needed modification if they exceeded 650/700 MB of standard DVD-Rs)



here is what killed the dreamcast:

NO DVD!:horse:

If Sega had included a DVD drive anong with built-in MPEG-2 decoding hardware (assuming the SH-4 isn't powerful enough to hanel it in software, otherwise a software player would be necessary), and most importantly official licencing and conformation to DVD video standards then the DC wouldn't have even gotten off the ground.

It would have been way too expensive, more expensive than the PS2 for sure (Sega could not afford to meet sony's price dumping, let alone exceed it), and at a high price point, the DC would have had one of the main problems of the Saturn.

However, I do think it's a bit odd that VCD functionality wasn't available out of the box, that should have been relatively simple to arrange (an embedded software player onboard), and while rathe rpointless in the west, it would have certianly been attractive in Asia with the popularity of VCDs. (one of the saving graces of the 3DO for that region, and the Saturn of course featured the VCD module as well) Perhaps they could have even added SVCD functionality (or provisions for expansion to such as the standard hadn't been fully established by the DC's launch iirc), again, an Asian thing. (but helping to boost relatively weaker popularity over there wouldn't hurt, right?)


If the PS2 had lacked DVD functionality and PSX compatibility, doubt that would have substancially reduced the hype they got (they wouldn't have had droved buying it for the express purpose of DVD player though), and keep in mind, had Sony done that, the PS2 could probably have launched at more like $200 and possibly a little earlier. Hell, Sony wouldn't have even had to stick with regular CDs either, rememebr Sony had the Double Density CD format as well with similar capacity to GD-ROM.

Silanda
02-05-2010, 08:57 AM
source?

and also, as christuserloeser pointed out, that was the year the DC was discontinued. If you're taking notes, Microsoft has never made a cent off of either XBOX (in fact they are BILLIONS in the hole thanks to RROD) and Sony is still far from recouping PS3 expenses (or even PSP for that matter). It takes several years to really profit from video game hardware and the DC never got far enough. So, to be succinct, I don't buy that as the excuse.

It's really not that hard to find if you look: http://www.segasammy.co.jp/english/ir/library/printing_archive.html

Microsoft is massively profitable with a wide portfolio of products, losses in the Xbox division are acceptable as it gives Microsoft a prime position in peoples living rooms and increases brand recognition. That makes the loss worth it. Sony was also profitable until recently and has a very wide range of products. Sega was making large year on year losses and had only one main product. It was primarily a games company with a limited portfolio of products, it did not have many other avenues of income that could offset massive losses in its game division. Sega had neither the revenue nor the potential future income to keep eating losses in the hundreds of millions. Also, their situation could have been a lot worse, as Christuserloeser said, Isao Okawa gave Sega a $700 million donation, as well as tens of millions previously to launch the Dreamcast.

rift
02-05-2010, 10:13 AM
Yeah I think the monster in the room really is Sony's ability to take a big loss out of the starting gate on hardware because of the nature of their giant company, something that sega wasnt in a position to do. The backwards compatibility was important to people as mentally it allowed you to hedge your bets in a way (most people were having to flip their psx's upside down by this point to get them to work), and most people didnt have dvd players at the time of ps2's launch.

But to be honest, I think you can't underestimate the place of strength sony was coming from off the psx. The super nintendo/genesis "war" was much, much closer than the psx/saturn fight. Especially considering sony was the newcomer, they came in and dominated the marketplace to a pretty unprecedented level. By the time the dreamcast came out it was seen as again Sega losing and panicking, rushing out another system to burn consumers. Sony didnt have that track record, so PS2 was a much safer bet. By that time people had forgotten Sonic, and knew their exclusive game fixes, from resident evil to final fantasy and gran tourismo, were all going to be on the sony system.

Chilly Willy
02-05-2010, 05:11 PM
Yeah I think the monster in the room really is Sony's ability to take a big loss out of the starting gate on hardware because of the nature of their giant company, something that sega wasnt in a position to do.

This is actually a common misconception people have. Sony does NOT allow one division to cover the losses of another. It's why the game division is in such trouble right now. Sony will not cover PS3 losses with profits from Sony/BGM, for example.

On the other hand, it's completely TRUE about Microsoft - they routinely use the profits from the OS and Office divisions to cover the losses on all their other divisions. The XBox line would have been gone years ago if not for that.

Baloo
02-05-2010, 05:24 PM
This is actually a common misconception people have. Sony does NOT allow one division to cover the losses of another. It's why the game division is in such trouble right now. Sony will not cover PS3 losses with profits from Sony/BGM, for example.

On the other hand, it's completely TRUE about Microsoft - they routinely use the profits from the OS and Office divisions to cover the losses on all their other divisions. The XBox line would have been gone years ago if not for that.

Why doesn't Sony cover losses from one division with another division? Sony must really be in the shitter right now due to PS3s lack of sales early on, not to mention the PSP being crushed by the Nintendo DS.

17daysolderthannes
02-05-2010, 05:25 PM
The backwards compatibility was important to people as mentally it allowed you to hedge your bets in a way (most people were having to flip their psx's upside down by this point to get them to work)


That's such BS, I never knew anyone that had their PSX upside down, I had never heard of such until I frequented game forums. Also, had Sony not dicked Bleem out of existence, the DC would've been the better PSX system due to the improved graphics.

Silanda
02-05-2010, 05:44 PM
That's such BS, I never knew anyone that had their PSX upside down, I had never heard of such until I frequented game forums.

Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't happen, a couple of friends of mine had to stand their Playstation on their sides back in the day. The Playstation was unreliable.

rift
02-05-2010, 05:47 PM
This is actually a common misconception people have. Sony does NOT allow one division to cover the losses of another. It's why the game division is in such trouble right now. Sony will not cover PS3 losses with profits from Sony/BGM, for example.
While its obvious in most giant corporations that each division is responsible for their own bottom line and there is no "loss covering" per se, the fact is that one of Sony's divisions losing money does not mean that Sony as an entire company is losing money. This plays out in the stock market as shareholders can see that say division 1, 2, and 3 all made profit in a quarter, while division 4 made a loss, but did so as part of a pre-approved strategy to eventually go into the black. Sega as a company just didn't have this option.


That's such BS, I never knew anyone that had their PSX upside down, I had never heard of such until I frequented game forums. Also, had Sony not dicked Bleem out of existence, the DC would've been the better PSX system due to the improved graphics. As to your first point, let me say you are the first person I have ever encountered to have never known anyone who did the upside down method. As I said in my first post in this thread, anecdotes aren't science, and should be treated as such. I had to flip mine over, as did practically everyone I knew irl. Searching online, you can easily find a wealth of information about the tactic, and will lead you to this on wikipedia:

The first batch of PlayStations used a KSM-440AAM laser unit whose case and all movable parts were completely made out of plastic. Over time, friction caused the plastic tray to wear out—usually unevenly. The placement of the laser unit close to the power supply accelerated wear because of the additional heat, which made the plastic even more vulnerable to friction. Eventually, the tray would become so worn that the laser no longer pointed directly at the CD and games would no longer load. Sony eventually fixed the problem by making the tray out of die-cast metal and placing the laser unit farther away from the power supply on later models of the PlayStation.

Some units, particularly the early 100x models, would be unable to play FMV or music correctly, resulting in skipping or freezing. In more extreme cases the PlayStation would only work correctly when turned onto its side or upside down.So I think calls of "such BS" are a little farfetched.

As to your second point I'm having trouble following you and no sure what you mean in regards to bleem or the dreamcast being the better psx system (?)

Knuckle Duster
02-05-2010, 05:58 PM
That's such BS, I never knew anyone that had their PSX upside down, I had never heard of such until I frequented game forums. Also, had Sony not dicked Bleem out of existence, the DC would've been the better PSX system due to the improved graphics.

Translation:



"Bullshit!, because I haven't seen it! If sony hadn't killed a conflict of interest the Dreamcast would have rocked!"


Personally, I've seen 9 different Playstations go through the life-cycle of 'not reading' discs unless they were on their side or upside down. That's when i stopped counting, I could probably remember more if I tried.

Your point about Bleem is moot, Sony opted to not improve the graphics with PS2, & it's beyond obvious why they would kill it's function on the Dreamcast.

kool kitty89
02-05-2010, 07:45 PM
Why doesn't Sony cover losses from one division with another division? Sony must really be in the shitter right now due to PS3s lack of sales early on, not to mention the PSP being crushed by the Nintendo DS.

I'm sure the PS2's continued popularit did help things somewhat, the price is low, so profits on hardware would be slim, but there are a few new games too (and soem re-releases I think), so that would at least provide soem help.


That's such BS, I never knew anyone that had their PSX upside down, I had never heard of such until I frequented game forums. Also, had Sony not dicked Bleem out of existence, the DC would've been the better PSX system due to the improved graphics.I think it was mostly the very early models, especially the launch ones (with the RCA jacks). I think Joe Redifer had this problem personally. It's less common than the overheating PSUs I think, and much less common that DVD drive problems with the PS2 classic.



Your point about Bleem is moot, Sony opted to not improve the graphics with PS2, & it's beyond obvious why they would kill it's function on the Dreamcast.
Umm, doesn't the PS2 provide soem additional AA/filtering options for PSX games?
And what Sony did to Bleem is understandable but still dispicable, and probably illegal. Bleem won the litigation, but got totally worn out as a result, so Sony got what they wanted, they railroaded Bleem and it was a loose/loose situation for the Bleem guys unfortunately. (It's a little liek what Apple did to DR over GEM, though with some differences obviously)

Oh, and BTE, bleem is a close as we ever got to actually geting PSX stuff, we did get a few games specifically because of Bleem, and would likely have gooted a fair amount more PSX titles had it continued, but no, we settled for some later PC ports instead if at all. (granted now there's proper emulation with PSX, but that's a very different case)



Sega had neither the revenue nor the potential future income to keep eating losses in the hundreds of millions. Also, their situation could have been a lot worse, as Christuserloeser said, Isao Okawa gave Sega a $700 million donation, as well as tens of millions previously to launch the Dreamcast.
Umm, you're really twisting christuseloeser's words aren't you, I mean you're making almost the polar opposite argument while still using his staments as refrence.

Let's look again:
Sega posted a $418 million loss in FY2001, and that was its fourth year of large losses. For a relatively small company with one main product, that's bleeding money.
That's a good point with sharing copies among friends, but that FY2001 loss is because of DC's discontinuation, not because they kept supporting it (they didn't: Moore announced DC's discontinuation in January 2001).

And yeah, had they kept up with supporting DC (even when still going third-party): Once the PS2 craze was over, sales would have picked up again. But what they did was scorched earth*.

Discontinuing Dreamcast cost them money, A LOT of money. Okawa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isao_Okawa#Honors) gave the company seven hundred million dollars (!) before he died, and it still could not prevent the Sammy takeover two years later.

Am I meisreading things, or did you take his statements out of context?

Silanda
02-05-2010, 08:07 PM
Umm, you're really twisting christuseloeser's words aren't you, I mean you're making almost the polar opposite argument while still using his staments as refrence.

I'm not using his argument to back up mine. He mentioned Okawa's donation first, so I thought I'd do him the courtesy of acknowledging that he'd mentioned it. I was being polite, perhaps I shouldn't bother in the future.

In any case, the cancellation of the DC may have cost Sega a lot but they also made huge losses in 98, 99, and 2000. The donation simply made FY2001 awful, rather than being a bloodbath.

17daysolderthannes
02-05-2010, 10:03 PM
As to your first point, let me say you are the first person I have ever encountered to have never known anyone who did the upside down method. As I said in my first post in this thread, anecdotes aren't science, and should be treated as such. I had to flip mine over, as did practically everyone I knew irl. Searching online, you can easily find a wealth of information about the tactic, and will lead you to this on wikipedia:
So I think calls of "such BS" are a little farfetched.

As to your second point I'm having trouble following you and no sure what you mean in regards to bleem or the dreamcast being the better psx system (?)

Perhaps in groups of people that play 10 hours a day, but no normal 1-2 hours-a-day max people ever seemed to have that problem. I knew at least one person with the SCPH-1001 and I remember playing it with him somewhere around 2000 and it definitely wasn't on its lid, and I know he played a good many hours a day. I also had a next door neighbor that might've had a SCPH 1001 (can't remember) and played all the time and his system was AOK in 98.

I've seen how people handle their systems and 95% don't have a proper setup (flat/hard surface, plenty of air room, no open windows for condensation to form, off the floor away from dirt/dust/pet hair, etc.). I have all of my systems strategically laid out so every air intake and vent has at least a good 4-6" of breathing room. Granted, any good engineer designs something so that the biggest retard imaginable can't fuck it up, but in this case Sony apparently expected basic competence from their customers and the customers just couldn't deliver.


Translation:

Personally, I've seen 9 different Playstations go through the life-cycle of 'not reading' discs unless they were on their side or upside down. That's when i stopped counting, I could probably remember more if I tried.

Your point about Bleem is moot, Sony opted to not improve the graphics with PS2, & it's beyond obvious why they would kill it's function on the Dreamcast.

Personally, I've seen hundreds of systems that didn't work, and you know what? excluding the shitBOX 360, all of them had clear signs of user abuse or neglect. Any CD drive will fail if you let it get full of dust so that it binds the gears and rails and then throw in a CD with potato chip greased hands so that it slips on the spindle.

As for the Bleem comment, how is it moot? Sony actually LOST the lawsuit, but Bleem was broke by the time all was said and done and IIRC the DC was about dead at that time as well. Sure, I know why Sony might've wanted to shut it down, but nevertheless it could've done great things for the DC had Bleem had the capital to stay in the game. The same could probably be said for Sega as well (about money, that is).

cj iwakura
02-05-2010, 10:32 PM
Regardless of the cause, it's a dang shame, especially the piracy, because the Dreamcast was a fine system.

Chilly Willy
02-05-2010, 10:48 PM
Why doesn't Sony cover losses from one division with another division? Sony must really be in the shitter right now due to PS3s lack of sales early on, not to mention the PSP being crushed by the Nintendo DS.

The PSP is doing extremely well. Not as well as the NDS, but it's certainly a success from a business standpoint. It's odd that simply because someone isn't "winning" at something people assume they are "losing". There's room for more than one company in any business, or do you assume the Genesis was "crushed" by the SNES and was a complete failure?

As to why Sony doesn't pool their money, Sony is a group of semi-separate companies loosely organized into a larger whole, but the divisions are mostly autonomous. Think of it like the EU - France and Germany are both part, but France isn't going to cover for Germany's economy, or vice versa. MS is one company that simply made artificial divisions as it got bigger to try to direct their resources better.

j_factor
02-06-2010, 04:23 AM
#1 there were already tons that COULD read the discs. Even worse, typically the "hardcore" players are usually first to adopt while more casual players tend to buy it off the clearance rack while it's on its way out. Therefore, the people that would be buying multiple games would be the same that would likely have a CD-R compatible DC. I mean, Sony tried to get rid of custom firmware starting with the last revision of PSP 2000, yet plenty of people have 1000s and 2000s still and people have even found exploits to install it on 3000s and GOs, so it wouldn't have accomplished much.

Tons? If there were tons, the Dreamcast would have been more popular, and then it probably wouldn't have died. You mention the PSP, but if Dreamcast were like the PSP, it would have sold a lot more units and lasted many years.

If they had removed the ability to read CD-R's, it would have been hard to crack. Would pirates have found a way eventurally? Sure, no console is piracy-proof. Even Gamecube was eventually cracked.


#2 it doesn't matter if everyone is a 1337 H4xOr bR04dBanD D0wN104dEr because in large cities people will just eventually find out about "that guy" that DOES know how to do it and everyone will buy copies off of him for a fraction of the retail price. If you walk down the street in NYC, you are bound to see a dude selling bootleg DVDs off of a blanket on the sidewalk, so I would imagine this would be the same thing. I wouldn't even be surprised if you could buy copies from a sketchy website on the then-fledgling internet.

I highly doubt that ever happened with Dreamcast games (except the internet thing, but how big of a problem was that, really?). The dude selling bootleg DVDs on the street can only do that because everyone has a DVD player. It's not worth it for him to sell Dreamcast games, just as it wouldn't be worth it to bootleg SACD's or something.

kool kitty89
02-06-2010, 06:34 AM
The PSP is doing extremely well. Not as well as the NDS, but it's certainly a success from a business standpoint. It's odd that simply because someone isn't "winning" at something people assume they are "losing". There's room for more than one company in any business, or do you assume the Genesis was "crushed" by the SNES and was a complete failure?

Well, in the Genesis/MD's case, given the sales figures lists pimpuigi has compiled, it seems ossible that the only major region that the MD/genesis was not the market leader for the 4th generation was Japan. (it apears that overall sales exceeded SNES in EU+UK, NA, AU, and South America of course -I don't think the latter was explicity included though) Granted, the SNES sold so well in Japan, and was relatively close in most other regions such that it's world wide sales do indeed apear to exceed the MD/Genesis by a substancial amount.



I'm not using his argument to back up mine. He mentioned Okawa's donation first, so I thought I'd do him the courtesy of acknowledging that he'd mentioned it. I was being polite, perhaps I shouldn't bother in the future.

In any case, the cancellation of the DC may have cost Sega a lot but they also made huge losses in 98, 99, and 2000. The donation simply made FY2001 awful, rather than being a bloodbath.
OK, fine simple acknoledgement, but it seems a bit odd to acknoledge that staemeent and not address the specific response tied to that comment which explicitly rebuted your own claims.

Da_Shocker
02-06-2010, 12:26 PM
Yeah the Genesis did well in every country except Japan. And the PSx had an extremely high failure rate early on. And the PS2 did too. It makes me wonder if Sony did this on purpose to increase their system sales? The Saturn and N64 never had any issues like that.

Chilly Willy
02-06-2010, 03:45 PM
And the PSx had an extremely high failure rate early on. And the PS2 did too. It makes me wonder if Sony did this on purpose to increase their system sales? The Saturn and N64 never had any issues like that.

You'll need to show hard figures to back up that statement. I've never seen a problem with my Jap PSX, US PSX, or my US PS2. Never known anyone that did either. I think any problems there were (and there are always problems with a few) were blown out of proportion, probably by MS to make themselves look better. It's the sort of dirty tactic MS is known for employing in business.

retrospiel
02-06-2010, 03:48 PM
Yeah the Genesis did well in every country except Japan.

It sold well enough in Japan - better than its predecessors, Mark III & Master System.

I think if you would project the Mega Drives sold in Japan onto the US market it would still be something like ~10 million units.

That's a lot, especially considering that the market wasn't as big as it is today.

So, while it is correct that it wasn't as successful in Japan as it was in the US, it wasn't a failure either.

Not by a long shot.

kool kitty89
02-06-2010, 08:20 PM
It sold well enough in Japan - better than its predecessors, Mark III & Master System.

I think if you would project the Mega Drives sold in Japan onto the US market it would still be something like ~10 million units.

That's a lot, especially considering that the market wasn't as big as it is today.

So, while it is correct that it wasn't as successful in Japan as it was in the US, it wasn't a failure either.

Not by a long shot.
I agree, it wasn't a failure, and was definitely a much more significant player in japan than the TG-16 in the US (moreso than the Saturn in the US too, or SMS, or Atari 7800 in the US).

And it was definitely a big step up from the preceding systems. (didn't the Mk.III/SMS only just barely break ~1M units in Japan -I know Sega figures are generally vague, and I'm not sure about the SG-1000 either, especially with the Mk.II and SC-3000 confusing things a bit)

roundwars
02-06-2010, 08:45 PM
Well, in the Genesis/MD's case, given the sales figures lists pimpuigi has compiled, it seems ossible that the only major region that the MD/genesis was not the market leader for the 4th generation was Japan. (it apears that overall sales exceeded SNES in EU+UK, NA, AU, and South America of course -I don't think the latter was explicity included though) Granted, the SNES sold so well in Japan, and was relatively close in most other regions such that it's world wide sales do indeed apear to exceed the MD/Genesis by a substancial amount.

I really doubt that Genesis outsold SNES in the United States, especially when those US sales figures include Sega CD revenues. My understanding was that it had majority US market share from 1991-1994, but SNES eventually surpassed it. I believe the peak was 65% at the end of 1992.

kool kitty89
02-06-2010, 09:57 PM
I really doubt that Genesis outsold SNES in the United States, especially when those US sales figures include Sega CD revenues. My understanding was that it had majority US market share from 1991-1994, but SNES eventually surpassed it. I believe the peak was 65% at the end of 1992.

The SNES definitely surpassed it in Market Share int he US, and Europe (possibly all of Europe, even UK), but share isn;t sales, share is for a single year (or more often quarter), so that makes perfect sence as the Genesis declined earlier than the SNES, so for '95, and '96 onward especially I could see the SNES haing the greater market share, possibly even in the UK. (extended to 1996 at least)

Revinue figures for Sega CD wouldn't skew things that much, especially from 1994 onward (when the prices were being dumped and opularity waning). Even if you do some rough estimation with ~2.5 million units and an average price, that doesn't counter act things. (especially given that from 1991 to mid 1994 the Genesis was significantly cheaper than the SNES in the US) Of course, this doedn't include Majesco sales either. (which should add another ~2 million sega produced consoles -mejesco was a distributor, they never manufacured their own stuff, the board at least, they may have made some cases, possibly soem cartridges as well, but it seems all genesis boards throguht the Genesis 3 were manufactured by Sega -Tectoy is another story)

Given Sega's lack of definitive sales figures, it's hard to judge, but it's clear that the 29 million worldwide sales figure is low by a lot.

roundwars
02-06-2010, 10:18 PM
The SNES definitely surpassed it in Market Share int he US, and Europe (possibly all of Europe, even UK), but share isn;t sales, share is for a single year (or more often quarter), so that makes perfect sence as the Genesis declined earlier than the SNES, so for '95, and '96 onward especially I could see the SNES haing the greater market share, possibly even in the UK. (extended to 1996 at least)

Revinue figures for Sega CD wouldn't skew things that much, especially from 1994 onward (when the prices were being dumped and opularity waning). Even if you do some rough estimation with ~2.5 million units and an average price, that doesn't counter act things. (especially given that from 1991 to mid 1994 the Genesis was significantly cheaper than the SNES in the US) Of course, this doedn't include Majesco sales either. (which should add another ~2 million sega produced consoles -mejesco was a distributor, they never manufacured their own stuff, the board at least, they may have made some cases, possibly soem cartridges as well, but it seems all genesis boards throguht the Genesis 3 were manufactured by Sega -Tectoy is another story)

Given Sega's lack of definitive sales figures, it's hard to judge, but it's clear that the 29 million worldwide sales figure is low by a lot.

Sorry, when I said US market share what I meant was US installed base. As in, the total number of systems sold by that point. The 29 million worldwide number is probably still low though.

Did pimpuigi's numbers include games sales as well? I'm pretty sure the Genesis sold more games per system in the US than the SNES did. Though a lot of those games would have been third-party, so I don't know if the royalties from those games would have been enough to cover the roughly $50 per system difference in price.

j_factor
02-06-2010, 10:21 PM
I really doubt that Genesis outsold SNES in the United States, especially when those US sales figures include Sega CD revenues.

But they also exclude the Genesis 3.

17daysolderthannes
02-06-2010, 10:48 PM
Tons? If there were tons, the Dreamcast would have been more popular, and then it probably wouldn't have died. You mention the PSP, but if Dreamcast were like the PSP, it would have sold a lot more units and lasted many years.

If they had removed the ability to read CD-R's, it would have been hard to crack. Would pirates have found a way eventurally? Sure, no console is piracy-proof. Even Gamecube was eventually cracked.

The Dreamcast sold really well right from the start, WAY better than the Saturn and probably better than any other Sega system at launch for that matter. Look on eBay at any given time, there are always tons of systems for sale, more so than anything else prior to the PS2 (except the PSX perhaps). As I've already said, usually the most hardcore will buy systems at launch, so the people looking for a large library of games would've had the CD-R capable DCs. If they could buy CD-Rs and save a ton of money, many probably would. The people that adopted the later CD-R proof systems are the same people that would probably only buy 1 or 2 games anyway, so they wouldn't even care. You're probably looking at this like a collector or moral elitest, but the reality is people would be clamoring for the CD-R friendly DCs and buying the games at a fraction of retail for the extent of the DC's life.

I don't know WTF you're talking about with the PSP either. The PSP always sold like shit, at Play in Trade we'd go weeks without moving a PSP game. The only reason the hardware sells well is because people buy it and then bootleg all of the games or run emulators on it. I barely know of anyone that has a PSP and doesn't have custom firmware. The only reason the PSP didn't die off years ago is because Sony won't give up as easily as Sega did, plain and simple. I haven't seen fiscal reports, but you can bet Sony is bleeding money from the PSP. Besides, for the most part the PSP sucks, the only reason I got one is because of custom firmware, I wouldn't have bought one without it.



I highly doubt that ever happened with Dreamcast games (except the internet thing, but how big of a problem was that, really?). The dude selling bootleg DVDs on the street can only do that because everyone has a DVD player. It's not worth it for him to sell Dreamcast games, just as it wouldn't be worth it to bootleg SACD's or something.

If you could play a DVD-R in an un-modded XBOX 360, they would be sold by every bootlegger in the country (well, if everyone couldn't do it themselves like they can nowadays thanks to high speed connections and standard DVD burners). If a guy posted up a block away from a game store selling the latest $50 DC game for $10, believe me, he would get some attention. When faced with the option of 2 new release games or a spindle of new release games for $100, most people would go for the spindle.

Chilly Willy
02-06-2010, 11:49 PM
I don't know WTF you're talking about with the PSP either. The PSP always sold like shit, at Play in Trade we'd go weeks without moving a PSP game. The only reason the hardware sells well is because people buy it and then bootleg all of the games or run emulators on it. I barely know of anyone that has a PSP and doesn't have custom firmware. The only reason the PSP didn't die off years ago is because Sony won't give up as easily as Sega did, plain and simple. I haven't seen fiscal reports, but you can bet Sony is bleeding money from the PSP. Besides, for the most part the PSP sucks, the only reason I got one is because of custom firmware, I wouldn't have bought one without it.

You don't know WTF you're talking about either. :D

The vast majority of PSPs run official firmware, and piracy on the PSP is lower than many other platforms. It's not as easy to setup custom firmware on the PSP as you imply - I should know as I was one of the people that was deep in that part of the scene. My initial PSP programming was on helping people fix PSPs that had been crippled by early flawed attempts to hack the firmware. That also discounts that the latest PSP 3000s need a kernel exploit to run custom firmware (which cannot be installed, but launched every time you reboot the PSP), and that exploit has already been patched by Sony.

The PSP certainly isn't "bleeding" Sony - the last figures I saw showed it earns them a healthy profit. I'm not a "hard-core" gamer by any means, but even I own almost a dozen PSP games, and almost two dozen UMD movies. Just because used games weren't too big in the one PnT you worked at (and we've all read your threads on that particular PnT) is no reason to assume that extends to any other business even in your own town. If anything, it means the people in your town buy their own copies directly new instead of used and hang onto them instead of trading them in.

old man
02-07-2010, 12:40 AM
I think the number of people buying bootleg games for the Dreamcast was relatively small. I personally never heard of anyone buying or selling bootleg games when the DC was still supported. And while there may have been some revenue lost to it, I don't think it was what caused sega to abandon the system. Flash carts certainly didn't kill the GBA.

Da_Shocker
02-07-2010, 12:55 AM
It sold well enough in Japan - better than its predecessors, Mark III & Master System.

I think if you would project the Mega Drives sold in Japan onto the US market it would still be something like ~10 million units.

That's a lot, especially considering that the market wasn't as big as it is today.

So, while it is correct that it wasn't as successful in Japan as it was in the US, it wasn't a failure either.

Not by a long shot.

Beating out it's predecessors by miniscule numbers is hardly a success. The SFC murdered the MD in Japan. Beating them by a whopping 13 million units sold. Clearly they were the only weak link during the 16-Bit era. The only time SoJ enjoyed some limited success was with the Saturn but that bombed in every other country. It pretty much shows you who put them in the predicament they are in now.

Da_Shocker
02-07-2010, 01:05 AM
You'll need to show hard figures to back up that statement. I've never seen a problem with my Jap PSX, US PSX, or my US PS2. Never known anyone that did either. I think any problems there were (and there are always problems with a few) were blown out of proportion, probably by MS to make themselves look better. It's the sort of dirty tactic MS is known for employing in business.

They were always in gaming magazines such as EGM and Gamepro. What would MS have to do with any of that? PS2 also had disc read errors with the original PS2. I didn't keep either one of PS's to see if they had issues but I bought a few Sony cd players and they all had manufacturing issues except my last cd player from them.

j_factor
02-07-2010, 03:50 AM
The Dreamcast sold really well right from the start, WAY better than the Saturn and probably better than any other Sega system at launch for that matter. Look on eBay at any given time, there are always tons of systems for sale, more so than anything else prior to the PS2 (except the PSX perhaps). As I've already said, usually the most hardcore will buy systems at launch, so the people looking for a large library of games would've had the CD-R capable DCs. If they could buy CD-Rs and save a ton of money, many probably would. The people that adopted the later CD-R proof systems are the same people that would probably only buy 1 or 2 games anyway, so they wouldn't even care. You're probably looking at this like a collector or moral elitest, but the reality is people would be clamoring for the CD-R friendly DCs and buying the games at a fraction of retail for the extent of the DC's life.

If Sega had quickly revised the console to remove CD-R playback in response to the release of the Utopia boot disc, they could've had CD-R incompatible systems on store shelves by Christmas 2000. And if Dreamcast had lived a normal lifespan, that would've put CD-R capable systems well into the minority. Of course they'd still be out there, but piracy would have faded in significance over time, until they eventually found a new exploit, which I think would have taken quite a while. I don't think huge swaths of people would be clamoring for the old systems just so they can get CD-Rs, and even if that did happen, that would have driven up the price on used systems. Piracy only happens in large numbers when it's easy. When it becomes a pain in the ass, only the hardcore feel it's worth the effort; most people have a very low threshold. That's why few people ever bothered pirating Gamecube games.

I really don't think people would be buying bootlegs en masse either way. But this is irrelevant. My point was that if Sega were acting based on piracy, they would have reacted by revising the console and perhaps taking other anti-piracy measures. What may or may not have happened after that is not germane to the topic at hand.

Hell, if they were really really concerned about piracy, they would not have given so much support to the Bleem guys, and they would not have shown Playstation games running on Dreamcast, via CD-R's, at E3 in 2000. That's how Dreamcast piracy came to be in the first place. Obviously Sega did not intend to enable piracy, but their willingness to act in this way proves that piracy was not exactly #1 on their list of concerns. If it were, Sega would have been like Nintendo, secretive about their hardware, trusting no one, and certainly not cavorting with emulation groups.


I don't know WTF you're talking about with the PSP either. The PSP always sold like shit, at Play in Trade we'd go weeks without moving a PSP game. The only reason the hardware sells well is because people buy it and then bootleg all of the games or run emulators on it. I barely know of anyone that has a PSP and doesn't have custom firmware. The only reason the PSP didn't die off years ago is because Sony won't give up as easily as Sega did, plain and simple. I haven't seen fiscal reports, but you can bet Sony is bleeding money from the PSP. Besides, for the most part the PSP sucks, the only reason I got one is because of custom firmware, I wouldn't have bought one without it.

You made the comparison with PSP, not I. PSP game sales might not be so hot, but the thing has sold tens of millions of units, has turned a profit for Sony, and remains fully supported five years after its launch. That's a much better fate than Dreamcast had, and on a system with supposedly very rampant piracy.


If you could play a DVD-R in an un-modded XBOX 360, they would be sold by every bootlegger in the country (well, if everyone couldn't do it themselves like they can nowadays thanks to high speed connections and standard DVD burners).

What does this have to do with anything? Xbox 360 has a much, much larger install base than Dreamcast did in January 2001. Any bootlegger back then would have more likely been selling PSX games, since there'd be more business in doing so.


If a guy posted up a block away from a game store selling the latest $50 DC game for $10, believe me, he would get some attention. When faced with the option of 2 new release games or a spindle of new release games for $100, most people would go for the spindle.

"If." Did you ever actually see a bootlegger on the street hocking Dreamcast burns? I never did. Not once. Nor have I heard any anecdotes from anyone.

Chilly Willy
02-07-2010, 02:53 PM
They were always in gaming magazines such as EGM and Gamepro. What would MS have to do with any of that?

MS was trying to enter the business with their XBox console. Naturally they took the same business tactics they used in the PC world with them to the console world. Lots of money was thrown at magazines to promote the XBox and slam the competition. It got so bad I canceled most of my game magazine subscriptions at the time.

retrospiel
02-07-2010, 05:05 PM
Sega did the same thing back in 1993: When my favorite magazine at that time gave Aladdin a 78% rating they threatened them and demanded for that rating to be revised or else they'd stop advertising and sending them press material and games for previewing and testing. And which is what happened. And things didn't change until two years later, when Saturn came out.

It didn't even matter that some of their editors were the same guys that founded Germany's first Sega magazine (Gamers) in 1991.

Silanda
02-07-2010, 05:19 PM
Sega did the same thing back in 1993: When my favorite magazine at that time gave Aladdin a 78% rating they threatened them and demanded for that rating to be revised or else they'd stop advertising and sending them press material and games for previewing and testing. And which is what happened. And things didn't change until two years later, when Saturn came out.

It didn't even matter that some of their editors were the same guys that founded Germany's first Sega magazine (Gamers) in 1991.

This type of crap has happened pretty much since day one. It used to happen back in the C-64/Zx Spectrum days too: "Give our game 90% or we pull our advertising".

Chilly Willy
02-07-2010, 05:50 PM
This type of crap has happened pretty much since day one. It used to happen back in the C-64/Zx Spectrum days too: "Give our game 90% or we pull our advertising".

Yeah, it's too bad that most gaming magazines cave to pressure or bribery. It leads to situations where one month they're extolling the great virtues of a game or console, then the next they're slamming them for being pathetic compared to whoever is paying them the most that month. :daze:

17daysolderthannes
02-07-2010, 07:26 PM
You don't know WTF you're talking about either. :D

The vast majority of PSPs run official firmware, and piracy on the PSP is lower than many other platforms. It's not as easy to setup custom firmware on the PSP as you imply - I should know as I was one of the people that was deep in that part of the scene. My initial PSP programming was on helping people fix PSPs that had been crippled by early flawed attempts to hack the firmware. That also discounts that the latest PSP 3000s need a kernel exploit to run custom firmware (which cannot be installed, but launched every time you reboot the PSP), and that exploit has already been patched by Sony.

The PSP certainly isn't "bleeding" Sony - the last figures I saw showed it earns them a healthy profit. I'm not a "hard-core" gamer by any means, but even I own almost a dozen PSP games, and almost two dozen UMD movies. Just because used games weren't too big in the one PnT you worked at (and we've all read your threads on that particular PnT) is no reason to assume that extends to any other business even in your own town. If anything, it means the people in your town buy their own copies directly new instead of used and hang onto them instead of trading them in.

Perhaps by the numbers there are more PSPs with official firmware, but then again probably 2/3-3/4 of ANY system are owned by people that only buy 1 or 2 games and play it when they get bored. I also need to see your sales figures as last time someone quoted me sales figures they insisted GameStop made several million dollars profit when they were quoting the gross income before paying employees, paying for merchandise, taxes, etc. If Sony doesn't make money on the handheld itself, I can't see them making too much from the PSP.

PSP is INSANELY easy to hack compared to many other systems. All you need is a pandora battery from DealExtreme for like $6, any memory stick produo with more than ?256MB? of space, and a PSP. Download Rain's MMS Maker Ultralite 5.00 and you have a custom firmware PSP, done.

My PnT is nothing special, all of the GameStops, etc. I know of don't sell PSP games for shit either. We would move PSP systems the same day in most cases, but games would sit forever. All other system's games moved just fine, so the "people just hold onto their games" is total BS. The only reason that PnT didn't make money is because of the sheer incompetence of its owner, the used stuff actually sold pretty well considering how worthless his management was.

And UMD movies? really? sorry, but that has got to be the dumbest investment ever. "Hey, I got an idea, lets pay MORE than the cost of a DVD for a proprietary disc that can only be played on a PSP and can't even be played on a television if you have a 1000 model! Screw ripping a DVD or downloading a digital copy and converting it to PSP-compatible MP4 format! that's for lame-o's!"

And finally, if anything, if you're correct and the PSP is making money, then that is just proof that the DC could've done the same with the CD-R exploit patched, but that doesn't change the fact that people speculated what they did and decided to kill it altogether instead.


I think the number of people buying bootleg games for the Dreamcast was relatively small. I personally never heard of anyone buying or selling bootleg games when the DC was still supported. And while there may have been some revenue lost to it, I don't think it was what caused sega to abandon the system. Flash carts certainly didn't kill the GBA.

It may have been small, but over the life of the system it would've probably increased (or potentially could have, anyway). My point was that 3rd party companies and perhaps Sega themselves would look at as a distinct possibility, regardless of whether or not it was reality. Most people didn't know about custom firmware for the PSP right away, but now everyone I know with a 1000 or 2000 is looking into getting it.


If Sega had quickly revised the console to remove CD-R playback in response to the release of the Utopia boot disc, they could've had CD-R incompatible systems on store shelves by Christmas 2000. And if Dreamcast had lived a normal lifespan, that would've put CD-R capable systems well into the minority. Of course they'd still be out there, but piracy would have faded in significance over time, until they eventually found a new exploit, which I think would have taken quite a while. I don't think huge swaths of people would be clamoring for the old systems just so they can get CD-Rs, and even if that did happen, that would have driven up the price on used systems. Piracy only happens in large numbers when it's easy. When it becomes a pain in the ass, only the hardcore feel it's worth the effort; most people have a very low threshold. That's why few people ever bothered pirating Gamecube games.

newsflash: Starting October 2000, DCs WEREN'T compatible with CD-R booted games. Piracy would've been very easy once "that guy" figured it out. All you would have to do is acquire a compatible DC and then call up "that guy" when the newest game came out, throw in the disc, done. Piracy is always overstated compared to reality, but that doesn't stop speculators from going apeshit. To go back to Napster (which was more prevalent than ANY console piracy), the RIAA went apeshit even though IIRC CD sales went up after its introduction.



I really don't think people would be buying bootlegs en masse either way. But this is irrelevant. My point was that if Sega were acting based on piracy, they would have reacted by revising the console and perhaps taking other anti-piracy measures. What may or may not have happened after that is not germane to the topic at hand.

again, they did revise the console! 3rd party companies still jumped ship. Also, you bet your ass people would be buying bootlegs in mass. They would probably buy any and everything "that guy" could burn for them. $10 for a new release? you bet your ass people would hit that up.



Hell, if they were really really concerned about piracy, they would not have given so much support to the Bleem guys, and they would not have shown Playstation games running on Dreamcast, via CD-R's, at E3 in 2000. That's how Dreamcast piracy came to be in the first place. Obviously Sega did not intend to enable piracy, but their willingness to act in this way proves that piracy was not exactly #1 on their list of concerns. If it were, Sega would have been like Nintendo, secretive about their hardware, trusting no one, and certainly not cavorting with emulation groups.

Sega wanted an open platform to try to expand their horizons and ultimately make more money. Bleem would've been a major selling point for people that had PSXs already and wanted backwards compatibility, not to mention the improved graphics is a BIG plus. Gran Turismo 2 in high(er) definition graphics is effin awesome, in fact, I might just play it tonight!

And just where is your proof that they were CD-Rs? Sega had GD-Rs that all of their in-progress games were burned to, and IIRC the Bleemcast boot discs were all GD-ROMs (the official Tekken, GT2, and Metal Gear Solid ones, not the ones you download from thepiratebay).



You made the comparison with PSP, not I. PSP game sales might not be so hot, but the thing has sold tens of millions of units, has turned a profit for Sony, and remains fully supported five years after its launch. That's a much better fate than Dreamcast had, and on a system with supposedly very rampant piracy.

Again, where are these numbers for the profits from the PSP? Most companies lose money from every unit of hardware in hopes to recoup it through game sales. If people buy truckloads of PSPs at a loss to Sony and don't buy games for them, Sony loses money. Sony never quits on any of their stuff because they know just existing in the market gives consumers confidence in their product and eventually translates into more sales. Sony may be willing to take the hit on the current PSP and release a much more bulletproof PSP 2 and people will adopt it solely based on the fact that Sony didn't drop the PSP in a couple months. While I don't buy that it was the sole reason, Sega's tendency to dump projects at the first sign of trouble (32X, Saturn, DC) really hurt their image and consumer confidence. Why buy a system when the company has a history of discontinuing it almost immediately?



What does this have to do with anything? Xbox 360 has a much, much larger install base than Dreamcast did in January 2001. Any bootlegger back then would have more likely been selling PSX games, since there'd be more business in doing so.

Again, this is how execs at Sega and 3rd party companies would've looked at it. You know, people actually try to predict markets over a span of time :roll: . Over time, the DC might've had an XBOX 360-sized user base, a user base of people pirating games, which is when this would've come into play. They predicted this future, so they pulled the plug.

Selling PSX games wouldn't make any sense since the PSX always needed a modchip to play CD-R games.

XBOX 360 piracy actually is pretty bad, look at the total downloads of torrents for hot new release 360 games. Also, for every one download, you can bet that guy is making copies for a few friends. XBOX 360 isn't terribly hard to pirate for either, you just have to plug the drive into a computer and reflash the drive to remove the security lockout. I haven't done it or really looked into it, but I know of quite a few that have.



"If." Did you ever actually see a bootlegger on the street hocking Dreamcast burns? I never did. Not once. Nor have I heard any anecdotes from anyone.

Again, this is what execs would've PREDICTED. There has never been a game system that could play any ol' CD-R like the DC could before or since. Yeah, the Sega CD and 3D0 could, but they were OFN by the time burners were in households. One guy could've sold pirate games to half a city and it would require no special modding or knowledge to play those games on a DC. It would've gone down just like the bootleg DVDs. Maybe not on a street corner, but still making its way into many DC owner's homes. You're confusing what could've and probably would've happened with what didn't happen because the DC was killed so quickly after the capability was discovered. Execs don't wait for an epic failure if they see it coming, the pull the plug and cut their losses.


Am I the only one that knows how business works here? seriously? what do you people do for a living? stock shelves at Wal-Mart? For fucks sake...

Baloo
02-07-2010, 07:43 PM
The PSP is doing extremely well. Not as well as the NDS, but it's certainly a success from a business standpoint. It's odd that simply because someone isn't "winning" at something people assume they are "losing". There's room for more than one company in any business, or do you assume the Genesis was "crushed" by the SNES and was a complete failure?

As to why Sony doesn't pool their money, Sony is a group of semi-separate companies loosely organized into a larger whole, but the divisions are mostly autonomous. Think of it like the EU - France and Germany are both part, but France isn't going to cover for Germany's economy, or vice versa. MS is one company that simply made artificial divisions as it got bigger to try to direct their resources better.

How can the PSP not be getting crushed by the DS? It's being outsold by the DS 2 to 1. That kind of ratio for console wars is simply ridiculous. Now I'm not saying the PSP wasn't a success hell, the Game Gear was technically a success, but it's definitely being blown out by the DS.

Chilly Willy
02-07-2010, 08:11 PM
PSP is INSANELY easy to hack compared to many other systems. All you need is a pandora battery from DealExtreme for like $6, any memory stick produo with more than ?256MB? of space, and a PSP. Download Rain's MMS Maker Ultralite 5.00 and you have a custom firmware PSP, done.

Only on old PSPs. The last PSP 2000 and all PSP 3000 models don't work with the Pandora battery. Like I said, it's only a kernel exploit in the older v5.0/5.05 firmware that allows you to launch custom firmware from the memstick, and that was patched quite some time back.

However, the NDS is simplicity itself to "hack" - just get one of the many different cards that allow you to play "backups" or homebrew. They're really cheap, usually running between $25 and $45 dollars depending on how many games they'll hold. Ironically, that's probably part of what makes the NDS sell better - it's easier to hack. ;)



And UMD movies? really? sorry, but that has got to be the dumbest investment ever. "Hey, I got an idea, lets pay MORE than the cost of a DVD for a proprietary disc that can only be played on a PSP and can't even be played on a television if you have a 1000 model! Screw ripping a DVD or downloading a digital copy and converting it to PSP-compatible MP4 format! that's for lame-o's!"

You've clearly never watched a UMD movie. They use h.264 encoding and have a superior picture to DVDs. Using the component cable out from a PSP 2000 with UMDs gives a portable movie player with far better picture than any DVD player.

kool kitty89
02-07-2010, 10:05 PM
Did pimpuigi's numbers include games sales as well? I'm pretty sure the Genesis sold more games per system in the US than the SNES did. Though a lot of those games would have been third-party, so I don't know if the royalties from those games would have been enough to cover the roughly $50 per system difference in price.
It was hardware sales revinue figures only, and for Sega only. (Genesis, CD, and 32x, no Majesco distributed Genesis 2s or 3s, and not including GameGear or SMS sales, or Nomad/CDX/X'Eye)
http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9132



The vast majority of PSPs run official firmware, and piracy on the PSP is lower than many other platforms. It's not as easy to setup custom firmware on the PSP as you imply - I should know as I was one of the people that was deep in that part of the scene. My initial PSP programming was on helping people fix PSPs that had been crippled by early flawed attempts to hack the firmware. That also discounts that the latest PSP 3000s need a kernel exploit to run custom firmware (which cannot be installed, but launched every time you reboot the PSP), and that exploit has already been patched by Sony.
Well, some softmods seem pretty damn simple:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY2Fp41xHmM
IY2Fp41xHmM Onn;y one specific example of the earlier 3000 models though.

But still, even with ease of doing so even for the modestly tech literate, that doesn't mean there won't be a ton of legitimate users. (biggest example being with music, though that's more extremem than most cases in the piracy sense)

Not dissagreeing in general (especialy about the PSP being a money pit), but I though I'd at least respond to that.



Beating out it's predecessors by miniscule numbers is hardly a success. The SFC murdered the MD in Japan. Beating them by a whopping 13 million units sold. Clearly they were the only weak link during the 16-Bit era. The only time SoJ enjoyed some limited success was with the Saturn but that bombed in every other country. It pretty much shows you who put them in the predicament they are in now.

Umm, I already replied on this: http://sega-16.com/forum/showpost.php?p=219497&postcount=38

But still, given the circumstances (NEC's lead with earlier release and successful push towards CD-ROM and Nintendo's general dominance), I still think the MD did reasonably well in Japan, it sold a few million units in its life time, so that's not bad at all. Saying one was a dismal failure just because anouther overshadowed it with outstanding success (SNES) isn't really a valid argument IMO. Comparatively speaking, the MD was far more successful in Japan than the N64, let alone GC (neither of which were actual failures in the region, Xbox was, but that's another story).





Hell, if they were really really concerned about piracy, they would not have given so much support to the Bleem guys, and they would not have shown Playstation games running on Dreamcast, via CD-R's, at E3 in 2000. That's how Dreamcast piracy came to be in the first place. Obviously Sega did not intend to enable piracy, but their willingness to act in this way proves that piracy was not exactly #1 on their list of concerns. If it were, Sega would have been like Nintendo, secretive about their hardware, trusting no one, and certainly not cavorting with emulation groups.
Bleem was a legitiamate product though, alowing th eplay of official, legal games. Given that Sony took losses on hardware sales, that would probably have been attractive to them as well, but the fact that Bleem would have facilitated piracy due to the inherant nature is what Sony was obviously concered about. Hence Sony railroading poor Bleem out of existence.





newsflash: Starting October 2000, DCs WEREN'T compatible with CD-R booted games. Piracy would've been very easy once "that guy" figured it out. All you would have to do is acquire a compatible DC and then call up "that guy" when the newest game came out, throw in the disc, done. Piracy is always overstated compared to reality, but that doesn't stop speculators from going apeshit. To go back to Napster (which was more prevalent than ANY console piracy), the RIAA went apeshit even though IIRC CD sales went up after its introduction.
How abbrupt was this though? Did Sega make a bit freakin' deal about the change to the public to emphesize it?

But still, that came at the worst possible time, close to the PS2's launch, then the DC was weakest. (if it was to survive through the rest of the generation to compete agains the modestly successful Xbox and GC, it would have needed to successfully whether the PS2's launch and coresponding hype) Of course, if christuserloeser is correct, it really didn't matter whether the DC was practical for Sega to push through the generation, Peter Moore had been convinced otherwise and wanted to move on to Xbox. (I have no idea how legitimate that is though, or if Moore truely did have the final say in the matter, rather than just the one it came down to to handel the nitty gritty of cancelling the system -with support from Japan)


Selling PSX games wouldn't make any sense since the PSX always needed a modchip to play CD-R games. Hmm, weren't early models rather vulnerable? (initially lacking any protection, and still vulnerable to disc swapping thereafter)

17daysolderthannes
02-07-2010, 10:57 PM
Only on old PSPs. The last PSP 2000 and all PSP 3000 models don't work with the Pandora battery. Like I said, it's only a kernel exploit in the older v5.0/5.05 firmware that allows you to launch custom firmware from the memstick, and that was patched quite some time back.

However, the NDS is simplicity itself to "hack" - just get one of the many different cards that allow you to play "backups" or homebrew. They're really cheap, usually running between $25 and $45 dollars depending on how many games they'll hold. Ironically, that's probably part of what makes the NDS sell better - it's easier to hack. ;)


You've clearly never watched a UMD movie. They use h.264 encoding and have a superior picture to DVDs. Using the component cable out from a PSP 2000 with UMDs gives a portable movie player with far better picture than any DVD player.

PSP 1000s and 2000s are much more common than you seem to understand. The only people I see clamoring for 3000s and GOs are those that don't know about custom firmware like super-casual gamers and kids. The custom firmware-proof 2000 is so rare that I have NEVER come across one, much like I've never come across a CD-R exploit proof DC.

As for the DS, yeah, I guess it is a little easier, but the super-casual nature of the DS means there are plenty of ignorant kids and adults that don't know about the flash cards and just buy the games (not to say you HAVE to pirate games, lol, but just that there are plenty that would but don't know about it).

As for UMD...hi, heard of Blu-Ray? Blu-Ray is a REAL format supported by multiple players. Also, what keeps an MP4 from using H.264 compression and playing off of the memory stick? What are you going to do with all of your UMDs if your PSP breaks? just keep buying crusty old PSPs for the rest of your life so you can play your super proprietary movies? I'm sorry, but UMD movies are the worst idea I've ever heard of in my entire life.

Knuckle Duster
02-07-2010, 11:07 PM
The 'PSP 2001' came out in August 2008 & restocked the core system on shelves until the 3000 came out in 'black' well after the launch of that revision. They're more common than you believe, just because you haven't seen one.

Really though, I have yet to witness 17days attempt to make a point without a condescending remark towards others.
I propose we start calling him Gimpy. He's similar enough of a pretentious rage-nerd character.
http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper657/stills/g19e4y1k.jpg

:lol:

17daysolderthannes
02-08-2010, 12:37 AM
The 'PSP 2001' came out in August 2008 & restocked the core system on shelves until the 3000 came out in 'black' well after the launch of that revision. They're more common than you believe, just because you haven't seen one.


um, hi, wrong! The PSP 2001 is COMPLETELY custom firmware-able with the typical Pandora method, in fact, the PSP slim sitting 5 feet away from me, that I modded completely myself with a pandora battery, is a 2001. The only version of the 2000/2001 that can't work with a pandora install is the TA-088v3, and I don't even know if that version was even sold in the US market. Every single 2000 I've tried to install custom firmware on via Rain's MMS Maker 5.00 M33-4 has worked.

http://alek.dark-alex.org/pspwiki/index.php/Motherboards



Really though, I have yet to witness 17days attempt to make a point without a condescending remark towards others.


just like...you?

I always start neutral until someone says something stupid and out of line, then it's on.

Da_Shocker
02-08-2010, 01:51 AM
But still, given the circumstances (NEC's lead with earlier release and successful push towards CD-ROM and Nintendo's general dominance), I still think the MD did reasonably well in Japan, it sold a few million units in its life time, so that's not bad at all. Saying one was a dismal failure just because anouther overshadowed it with outstanding success (SNES) isn't really a valid argument IMO. Comparatively speaking, the MD was far more successful in Japan than the N64, let alone GC (neither of which were actual failures in the region, Xbox was, but that's another story).

The N64 actually sold better in Japan than the MD did. It sold better than the GC did but Xbox sold like shit. My reasoning is that in the USA and Europe the Genesis/MD was able to compete with and beat Nintendo at times. Japan never ever seemed to threatin Nintendo and there low sales were probably the reason why the Genesis doesn't have as many million sellers as the SNES/SFC had.

Knuckle Duster
02-08-2010, 04:39 AM
I said 2001 because that designates all 2000 models with the v3 motherboard in them anyway as a minor point; Not to serve a point of your ever so pretentious 'ZOMG You're WRONG!' attitude with an attempt to educate the fundamentals between the actual board revisions on a padded tangent.

They were sold in the US market; Sony spent a whole quarter shipping them before switching to the 3K in it's 'Core' retail package.


I always start neutral until someone says something stupid and out of line, then it's on.

'Stupid' is subjective but forgivable at a point if one were reasonable.

'Out of line' however is what you seem to be best at, considering every second post you make, you mock any 'real' person you describe meeting, knowing, working for, etc; as if it would serve a purpose to your conveyed opinion while constantly missing how it makes you look like a, to use your own favorite: retard.

It's always 'on' with you, that's the point. You should know better than trying to justify perpetual ignorance to a fool such as me who's willing to call you on it.
I know better, but do you? Probably not.

Please continue though, I'm sure your nerd rage persona amuses somebody around here & I have no further wish to enlighten you on the zeitgeist you inspire.

kool kitty89
02-08-2010, 05:46 AM
The N64 actually sold better in Japan than the MD did. It sold better than the GC did but Xbox sold like shit. My reasoning is that in the USA and Europe the Genesis/MD was able to compete with and beat Nintendo at times. Japan never ever seemed to threatin Nintendo and there low sales were probably the reason why the Genesis doesn't have as many million sellers as the SNES/SFC had.
The market was far larger durring the N64's life, so that's not a fair comparison. (I meant relative to total market sales)

As for Million sellers, that does show something, but do also note that the MD seems to have spread sales more evenly among more titles, in particular there were many more 1st party releases compared to Nintendo (or even NEC/Hudson).
One obvious other reason is JRPGs being a strong point for the SFC, but not MD, unless you were in the RPG unfreindly EU where Sega released more RPGs than contemporaries -ie no FF prior to FFVII, so Super Mario RPG, etc. (the significnant RPG releases on MCD seem to relate to a relatively high adoption rate of the add-on in Japan -of course, JP was more prone to those kind of upgrades anyway, NEC being highly successful -but also getting in much earlier than Sega and pusshign for a total shift to CD)

17daysolderthannes
02-08-2010, 01:01 PM
I said 2001 because that designates all 2000 models with the v3 motherboard in them anyway as a minor point; Not to serve a point of your ever so pretentious 'ZOMG You're WRONG!' attitude with an attempt to educate the fundamentals between the actual board revisions on a padded tangent.

They were sold in the US market; Sony spent a whole quarter shipping them before switching to the 3K in it's 'Core' retail package.



Um, hi, still wrong. Not every 2001 has a v3 motherboard, in fact, a VERY small minority do. I just modded a friend's last week that had a 2001 PSP, as is mine, both with the standard pandora method. That doesn't even begin to make sense to defend yourself on the premise that the v3 falls under the mother category of 2001, most of which ARE compatible with pandora batteries.





'Out of line' however is what you seem to be best at, considering every second post you make, you mock any 'real' person you describe meeting, knowing, working for, etc; as if it would serve a purpose to your conveyed opinion while constantly missing how it makes you look like a, to use your own favorite: retard.

Not every real person I meet is a retard, but it just so happens the retards are the ones that cause me the most grief. My current boss isn't a retard, but he has nothing to do with video games, so he's not really relevant on here is he? My boss at PnT was, and I'm not the only one that thinks so either. Every single person I've met that has worked with him has said "oh my god, you poor fuck!" No one that has worked with him would ever do so again.

Also, people in general are pretty fucking stupid, sorry, they are. And no, I don't feel sorry for them, it's their own fault for copping out of life instead of having some ambition to better themselves.




Please continue though, I'm sure your nerd rage persona amuses somebody around here & I have no further wish to enlighten you on the zeitgeist you inspire.

I don't see what's nerd rage about it, it's just plain hatred of stupidity. People get a pass way too much nowadays, someone needs to let them know what's up.

And sorry, but no one has more nerd rage than you, you have never made a single non-offensive post, only Metal Sonic has achieved higher levels of douche.

Chilly Willy
02-08-2010, 02:01 PM
Um, hi, still wrong. Not every 2001 has a v3 motherboard, in fact, a VERY small minority do. I just modded a friend's last week that had a 2001 PSP, as is mine, both with the standard pandora method. That doesn't even begin to make sense to defend yourself on the premise that the v3 falls under the mother category of 2001, most of which ARE compatible with pandora batteries.

DId you read his post at all? He wasn't talking about the 2001 MODEL, he just called it that as a way to label it compared to the generic 2000 label.

Generic 2000 label = v1 or v2 Model 200X PSP
Generic 2001 label = v3 Model 200X PSP

It really wasn't that hard to get what he was saying. And it's not a VERY small minority depending on where you live. I know people who have bought several PSP 2000s only to have every one be a v3 mobo. What you need to do to be more assured of getting an old 2000 is to get one of the original package deals, like the original Silver Daxter package (which is what I got).

Knuckle Duster
02-08-2010, 02:25 PM
Um, hi, still wrong. Not every 2001 has a v3 motherboard, in fact, a VERY small minority do. I just modded a friend's last week that had a 2001 PSP, as is mine, both with the standard pandora method. That doesn't even begin to make sense to defend yourself on the premise that the v3 falls under the mother category of 2001, most of which ARE compatible with pandora batteries.



Not every real person I meet is a retard, but it just so happens the retards are the ones that cause me the most grief. My current boss isn't a retard, but he has nothing to do with video games, so he's not really relevant on here is he? My boss at PnT was, and I'm not the only one that thinks so either. Every single person I've met that has worked with him has said "oh my god, you poor fuck!" No one that has worked with him would ever do so again.

Also, people in general are pretty fucking stupid, sorry, they are. And no, I don't feel sorry for them, it's their own fault for copping out of life instead of having some ambition to better themselves.




I don't see what's nerd rage about it, it's just plain hatred of stupidity. People get a pass way too much nowadays, someone needs to let them know what's up.

And sorry, but no one has more nerd rage than you, you have never made a single non-offensive post, only Metal Sonic has achieved higher levels of douche.

"Every 2000 WITH a v3 HAS 2001 on it." != "Every 2001 has v3."

The nerd rage comes in where 'reason' fails. You're full of 'plain hatred of stupidity' over what? Everything. Nerd Rage is what you spew when you attempt to justify a response to any issue at all. It's funny at times, sad most often, and quite ridiculous. Your 'expert opinion' from lurking in the back of a PnT sweatshop is infallible to the point of insult.

Nobody said you should feel sorry for stupid people, just sorry for yourself for being stupid.

Stupid being the relative term describing how you would rather justify & continue being a pretentious asshole, with long-winded posts repeating the same drama, than be constructive to a discussion. What does MS have to do with anything, other than you baiting him to argue with you further in the future? It's an easy observation to make.

Your persona is more bitter than a senior citizen, with all the passion of a hyperactive 6 year old who consumed a box of sugar coated cereal.

Da_Shocker
02-08-2010, 09:26 PM
Here is one thing i'm wondering is why on earth didn't Sega use the same technique that made the Saturn so hard to pirate. With the Saturn u pretty much had to mod the system unlike the DC.

KnightWarrior
02-09-2010, 01:25 AM
What's the real story about CD-R's & the DC lens..Does it really burn it out or it's just a Mith??

What's better CD-R's or GD-ROM's

Silanda
02-09-2010, 04:03 AM
Here is one thing i'm wondering is why on earth didn't Sega use the same technique that made the Saturn so hard to pirate. With the Saturn u pretty much had to mod the system unlike the DC.

IMHO, complacency. They woefully underestimated hackers and just figured that the GD-ROM would never be cracked. Of course, with that back door they left in the Dreamcast they were just asking for trouble on that front.

kool kitty89
02-09-2010, 05:07 AM
Here is one thing i'm wondering is why on earth didn't Sega use the same technique that made the Saturn so hard to pirate. With the Saturn u pretty much had to mod the system unlike the DC.
Because they weren't using CD-ROMs, but a propritary format, Sega failed to recognide the possible danger of being able to boot from CD-ROMs rather than GD-ROMs, and had they disabled that functionality entirely that may have been an accurate assumption to make. (ie no games could boot from CD, only music CDs -and should have had VCDs as well... not sure what that would have done to Bleem though -perhaps that would work fine as long as the Bleem boot disc was a GD-ROM, with PSX CDs working normally afterward)

From what I understand the CD-ROM functionality was an oversight, included to facilitate development but not removed from non-dev units. Then there's the mechanism exploited to rip games using the DC GD-ROM drive. (not sure how much of an oversight that was, whether it would hav been possible to elliminate or not) That's the main problem, but even short of that, I'd immagine soem decent hardware hackers would have been able to canabalize the GD-ROM drive and rig up an external interface eventually. (which is where not allowing CD-Rs to be used at all in "game mode" would come in -ripping from a propritary format is one thing, but without CD-Rs able to be used you're in a world of trouble to bootleg stuff)

But really, had they been thinking ahead, they should have implemented security at least on the Saturn's level, just in case.


What's the real story about CD-R's & the DC lens..Does it really burn it out or it's just a Mith??

What's better CD-R's or GD-ROM's
The problem with rips is that may are very inefficiently organized, thus the drive is constantly seeking, which could lead to excess wear on the laser assembly. I think tere are more efficiently organized rips available, but I'm not sure.

GD-ROMs work a bit differently than standard CDs, but the main difference is just the capacity, they have roughly double the storage capacity of common CD-ROMs (~1.3 GB rather than 650-700 MB -interesting that Sony's Double Density CD format was also 1.3 GB). This makes things problematic for larger games as splitting them itno 2 separate discs isn't an option (or not a simple one), so things have to be cut down, left out, or the game has to be avoided alltogether. (not sure if any games are liek this, or multiple discs can be used for some)

Silanda
02-09-2010, 04:41 PM
But really, had they been thinking ahead, they should have implemented security at least on the Saturn's level, just in case.

That security on the Saturn was damn good stuff, after 15 years and superior drives have been developed still no way has been found to properly copy a Saturn disc. Whatever else can be said about the Saturn, its discs had good copy protection.

retrospiel
02-09-2010, 06:07 PM
The ability to boot from CD-ROM comes from the MIL-CD format, a special music CD with Dreamcast data track for Karaoke, etc.pp.

Again, even if "piracy" (copying) played a role in Dreamcast's discontinuation, it was a minor problem. Especially compared to PS2's (and PS1's!) sales (http://xiaopang333.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/piracy-killed-the-dreamcastor-did-it/). Or Microsoft's plans for Xbox (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218733&postcount=3). And a CEO that didn't care for Sega as a hardware manufacturer (and I am referring to Moore, not Okawa).

j_factor
02-09-2010, 10:51 PM
GD-ROMs work a bit differently than standard CDs, but the main difference is just the capacity, they have roughly double the storage capacity of common CD-ROMs (~1.3 GB rather than 650-700 MB -interesting that Sony's Double Density CD format was also 1.3 GB). This makes things problematic for larger games as splitting them itno 2 separate discs isn't an option (or not a simple one), so things have to be cut down, left out, or the game has to be avoided alltogether. (not sure if any games are liek this, or multiple discs can be used for some)

Multiple disc games are a problem? I've never heard of that. A significant number of games had more than one disc. I don't know of any issues.

Guntz
02-09-2010, 11:22 PM
Multiple disc games are a problem? I've never heard of that. A significant number of games had more than one disc. I don't know of any issues.

He was talking about single GD-ROM disc DC games that take up more than 700MB of disk space.

KnightWarrior
02-09-2010, 11:40 PM
How about just burning games on the lowest setting like 1X or 2X

Guntz
02-09-2010, 11:44 PM
Burning speed doesn't have anything to do with where the data is stored on the disc. That has to be decided in the ISO/BIN/CDI/whatever file before hand.

Also, I don't think there are any new drives being made that can burn at a speed that low. The slowest the DVD drive in my computer (which is about 1-2 years old) can burn is 16x IIRC.

kool kitty89
02-10-2010, 01:33 AM
The ability to boot from CD-ROM comes from the MIL-CD format, a special music CD with Dreamcast data track for Karaoke, etc.pp.
Huh, that seems rather unnecessary, why not just support normal CD+G? (and for anything else use actual VCD format -which I have no idea why was left out given that Saturn supported it with a module and DC should be easily powerful enough on its own)


Again, even if "piracy" (copying) played a role in Dreamcast's discontinuation, it was a minor problem.[quote] It doesn't matter if th ethreat was really significant, just that Developers were put off enough with that combined with Sega's past snafu's not to bother with the risk. (kind of a snowball effect along with Sony's hype)

[quote][quote]Especially compared to PS2's (and PS1's!) sales (http://xiaopang333.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/piracy-killed-the-dreamcastor-did-it/). Or Microsoft's plans for Xbox (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218733&postcount=3). And a CEO that didn't care for Sega as a hardware manufacturer (and I am referring to Moore, not Okawa).
I'm not convinced one way or another on Moore. He was obviously interested in the Xbox, but I don't know if he intentionally sabataged Sega (which is quite an acusation), was simply influnced by persoanl interests in addition to other factors in deciding to kill the DC, or if Japan was behind him in the decision.
I don't blame Okawa, in fact I think he may have been the best leader of SoJ ever, they probably would have been a lot better off had he been in charge in 1994. (especially before Mars got forced on SoA)

tomaitheous
02-10-2010, 03:57 AM
At the time of the DC's death, it wasn't a problem. And there's nothing to say future versions of the DC wouldn't have additional security checks (i.e. CD part of the GD-rom could only be so big in size in order to be valid). And there are software measure as well to guard against copying. The PSX was extremely successful system and people were copying games like mad BITD. Like MAD. And that required a mod chip and later, a patch to get rid of the security. Did that scare off potential and existing developers? Hardly. Piracy and availability of converted GD to CD ISOs were much, much, much more rampant after Sega decided to kill the system and not go after sites (did you guys also forget the teams of lawyers similar to the RIAA that went after roms and ISOs sites at the time!? I sure as hell still remember). So, it's my opinion piracy was not a valid reason why the DC failed. The PS2 was. And Sega throwing in the towel. Plain and simple. People always want to make into something more than what it is/was.

kool kitty89
02-10-2010, 05:40 AM
So, it's my opinion piracy was not a valid reason why the DC failed. The PS2 was. And Sega throwing in the towel. Plain and simple. People always want to make into something more than what it is/was.
Well, the PS2 would certianly have stollen their thunder regardless, but that's not to say it would have prevented the system from being profitable. (or indeed leaving Sega better off than they did with the abbrupt shift to 3rd party software)
Some of that would certianly be something only seen in hindsight, but ignoring the PS2 entirely (it's a given, and Sega could neither have competed on par with Sony spending or practically included DVD functionality -Sega's precarious position on the market was certainly an additional factor) then the DC might have been more feasible in the context of competing with the Xbox (which was nonexistant in Japan and proved a bad choice for Sega to release titles on in geneal) and the GC which at least had a presense in Japan, but sold worse worldwide than the Xbox. (I don't know about you, but I could see the DC competing against those 2 fairly well, hell, maybe even beating one or both in popularity -or in some regions at least, Japan is a given for beating the Xbox)

The DC would have had the advantages of being established (with sizable library of games), having a lower price point (less so compared to GC), and having fairly strong 1st party support. (even if 3rd paries falterd -be it due to emphesis on the PS2 or piracy concerns) Plus the windows CE feature still facilitated PC ports to some degree. (I think games like Episode I Racer and MDK-2 are examples of this)

That's not to say Sega couldn't have still put more emphesis on 3rd party releases too, specifically PC (windows CE possibly facilitating cross platform development), perhaps even a shift towards soem multiplatform games on competing consoles towards the end of the DCs life. (like ~2003, depending on how such competitors would react of course) Given the greif Sony gave them with the market domination, Nintendo would seem like a farily natural partner. Indeed Sega seems to have been pretty successful with their GC releases -compared to Xbox at least and nintendo was the only other "old" video game console company still on the market.
Tomaitheous, I think you made a similar infrence about Sega's relationship with Nintendo in that aspect in a prior discussion.

Chilly Willy
02-10-2010, 03:46 PM
What counts is not the speed, but whether the drive uses DIFFERENT speeds for different zones of the disc. Most modern drives have a low end of 12X to 16X, but that speed is used for the entire disc, so it's fine. What's not fine is when you set it for something like 32X and it starts at 12X or 16X and jumps to different speeds until it reaches 32X.

kool kitty89
02-10-2010, 08:46 PM
What counts is not the speed, but whether the drive uses DIFFERENT speeds for different zones of the disc. Most modern drives have a low end of 12X to 16X, but that speed is used for the entire disc, so it's fine. What's not fine is when you set it for something like 32X and it starts at 12X or 16X and jumps to different speeds until it reaches 32X.

You're talking about problems with game systems reading CD-R/CD+Rs right? (and how a fixed burning speed is important rather than a slow one)

Chilly Willy
02-11-2010, 02:03 PM
You're talking about problems with game systems reading CD-R/CD+Rs right? (and how a fixed burning speed is important rather than a slow one)

Exactly. Except there's no +/- on CDs. It's just CD-R. You're thinking of DVDs where there is a DVD-R and DVD+R. :D