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DarkDragon
01-12-2012, 04:01 PM
I know this is a Sega site and there's a lot of Saturn fans here but I wonder if there is anyone like me who never had a Saturn and have no urge to buy one. Hey, I really like Genesis and Sega CD as well as Dreamcast but for some reason the 32X and Saturn never resonated with me.

eddiespruce
01-12-2012, 04:03 PM
I think most people that have played a Saturn enjoyed it. I love the Saturn, however I dislike the prices many games go for.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-12-2012, 04:08 PM
The Saturn is probably one of my favorite consoles I own. Though if you don't like RPGs, Arcade games, and Sega titles, you might not like it.

TheSonicRetard
01-12-2012, 04:16 PM
nope. I bought my saturn at launch and loved it ever since.

Are you familiar with the saturn's library? There is a ton of 2D greatness in there.

Bastardcat
01-12-2012, 04:17 PM
I found it to be a very middle of the road system. Not outstanding, but not bad either.

DarkDragon
01-12-2012, 04:24 PM
nope. I bought my saturn at launch and loved it ever since.

Are you familiar with the saturn's library? There is a ton of 2D greatness in there.

I don't buy imports so it's probably not a console for me.

Kamahl
01-12-2012, 04:27 PM
Panzer Dragoon is the awesomeness. A Saturn is worth for it alone.

DarkDragon
01-12-2012, 04:29 PM
Panzer Dragoon is the awesomeness. A Saturn is worth for it alone.

It may be great but it doesnt appeal to me at all. sorry.

TheSonicRetard
01-12-2012, 04:32 PM
I don't buy imports so it's probably not a console for me.

I'm not talking about imports. I'm talking about domestic titles like Astal, Legend of Oasis, Dragon Force, etc.

DarkDragon
01-12-2012, 04:36 PM
I'm not talking about imports. I'm talking about domestic titles like Astal, Legend of Oasis, Dragon Force, etc.

From what Ive read, the best games were imports and it doesnt seem like a console worth owning if you only buy US released games.

Iron Lizard
01-12-2012, 04:42 PM
At the time I found it worth owning. Now the prices are so silly that maybe not anymore. To bad you just burn discs easily like the Dreamcast. Many of the games , Magic Knight, PZS, Guardian Heroes,etc I bought new are so expensive I can't see buying them again. Then again some people don't care about the price. I however like having enough money to pay my rent.

sheath
01-12-2012, 04:42 PM
There are many ways to look at the Saturn. The way the media looked at it was if it wasn't top notch texture mapped lighted 3D it sucked, in which case the Saturn only has a handful of "good" games. General public opinion at the time claimed that if it wasn't 3D it wasn't worth buying, in which case the Saturn has more "good" games than not. Collectors are going to go for the gold of collecting as many titles as possible, redundancies be damned, in which case the Saturn is a gold mine of high cost and low cost items to bolster said collection.

Retro Gamers are going to apply their own genre biases to any platform the look at in hindsight. Most of the above perspectives will apply, but genre specific preferences will prevail, in which case the Saturn is an above average game console.

Black_Tiger
01-12-2012, 04:46 PM
Shining Force III is the awesomeness. A Saturn is worth for it alone.

Tasuke
01-12-2012, 04:49 PM
From what Ive read, the best games were imports and it doesnt seem like a console worth owning if you only buy US released games.


i'll pretty much second that...

TheSonicRetard
01-12-2012, 04:56 PM
From what Ive read, the best games were imports and it doesnt seem like a console worth owning if you only buy US released games.

The best FIGHTERS were imports

you sound unfamiliar with the majority of the console's library.

NeoZeedeater
01-12-2012, 04:57 PM
From what Ive read, the best games were imports and it doesnt seem like a console worth owning if you only buy US released games.

This is common thing people say but it's misleading and only applies to some genres. Most of the great 2d shooters were left in Japan but Darius Gaiden and Galactic Attack weren't. The best 2d fighters are imports but that's not the case with 3d ones like Virtua Fighter 2 and Fighters Megamix. Many consider Sega Rally the best racer on it and that came out domestically. For RPGs and strategy games, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Shining Force III, and Dragon Force came here. Shinobi Legions is one of the best 2d platformers on the system. It's a shame Capcom's D&D games didn't come here but Guardian Heroes is a top notch beat 'em up. And of course there's NiGHTS which people seem to either worship or hate.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-12-2012, 04:59 PM
From what Ive read, the best games were imports and it doesnt seem like a console worth owning if you only buy US released games.

Here's a list of awesome titles that were all released in the US:

Sega Rally Championship
Datyona USA CCE
NiGHTS into Dreams
Virtua Fighter Remix
Virtua Fighter 2
Fighting Vipers
Fighters Megamix
Burning Rangers
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon 2
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Shining Force 3
Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic R
Sonic Jam
Virtual On
Street Fighter Alpha
Street Figther Alpha 2
Street Fighter Collection
Megaman 8
Megaman X4
Night Warriors: Darkstalkers Revenge
Galactic Attack
Darius Gaiden
Sega Ages Volume 1
Albert Odyssey
Dragon Force
Magic Knight Rayearth
Astal
Legend of Oasis
Diehard Arcade
Virtua Cop
Virtua Cop 2
House of the Dead
Quake
Duke Nukem 3D
Powerslave
Guardian Heroes

There's probably even more than this, but this is what comes to mind off the top of my head.

Basically JP imports are for if you want more RPGs, Shmups, and 2D Fighters.

NeoVamp
01-12-2012, 05:53 PM
I was never impressed by the Saturn, Its games library pales in comparison to that of the Playstation,
this could have been ignored if it at least had some good real Sega games, but other then a handful of interesting stuff
(daytona/sega rally/virtua cop1&2/legend of oasis) it wasn't really a memorable era for Sega.

Where's Sonic 4? where's Streets of Rage? where's Toejam & Earl 3? where's the rest of Shining Force 3? where's Ecco 3?
where's Golden Axe 4? (don't care about their 2D fighter) where's Monsterworld 5? where's Ristar 2? where's Eternal Champions II?
where's Splatterhouse 4? where's the Michael Jackson game? (was he already in trouble back then?)

I mean, where are all those games that got me into Sega to begin with? (though to be honest they did give us Shinobi)

I still remember reading about the upcoming Saturn, and thinking it was gonna be my Megadrive years all over again, but improved!

And then came the day where it was released.. and I wasn't impressed, then they came with mediocre FPS PC port, and slow 3D fighters,
and stuff I could care less about. (was never a panzer dragoon fan)


Just wanted to continue my Sega time..

To me it really felt like Sega had dropped the ball with the Saturn, I'm sure its got its nice collection of interesting games,
but the PS1 just had soooooo muuuuuuch moooooooooore to offer.

So no, I don't like the Saturn, don't hate it either.. just don't really care about it.

Bastardcat
01-12-2012, 05:56 PM
I think the Saturn did poorly, because people were royally pissed about the way the 32X was handled. $160 for an add-on that was supported for all of a year? Yeesh. So, I could see why there wasn't much in the way of consumer confidence in the Sega brand at that point.

NeoZeedeater
01-12-2012, 05:58 PM
I doubt most PS1 and N64 owners knew what a 32X was. It's hard to tell how much damage it actually did but it certainly didn't help.

Bastardcat
01-12-2012, 05:59 PM
I knew about it, because I frequented stores like Babbages. They had everything, no matter how obscure it may be.

QuickSciFi
01-12-2012, 06:00 PM
Anyone with a taste for 16-bit and 128-bit Sega games would definitely enjoy:

Virtua Fighter 2
Three Dirty Dwarves
Nights into Dreams
Street Fighter Alpha 2
Virtua Cop 1 & 2
Shinobi Legions
Powerslave
Daytona USA
Bust-A-Move 2 & 3
Astal
Earthworm Jim 2
Clorkwork Knight 1 & 2
The Lost World: Jurassic Park

...all of the can be found for very affordable, cheap prices.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-12-2012, 06:01 PM
I don't know about you, but Virtua Fighter 2 is a rather fast 3D Fighter.

If I remember correctly Sonic Team was working on a 2D Sonic 4 that they abandoned in favor of Nights, Sonic Adventure, and Burning Rangers. There was a Streets of Rage 4 in the works, but the outsourced developer wanted to make it multiplatform and Sega said no for obvious reasons. This resulted in the game getting released as Fighting Force for the PS1 and N64. A Saturn version was almost completed, but not released. There was also an Eternal Champions game in the works, but it got cancelled. And the rest of Shining Force 3 was released in Japan due to poor sales of the Saturn.

Seriously, most of those games probably would have came to the Saturn had it sold better in the US. But since it didn't, those games didn't come out. And can you really blame them? Aside from the RPGs those games mostly appealed to the US market. It would have been a gamble to spend money making those games, and it may or may not have payed off. Sega took the route they thought was safer.

Bastardcat
01-12-2012, 06:01 PM
Three Dirty Dwarves?
http://www.pageofreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/zapp-brannigan-300x225.jpg
Sounds...naughty.

QuickSciFi
01-12-2012, 06:04 PM
The first time I played Virtua Fighter 2 on the Saturn, I was so impressed I kept thinking it was a Dreamcast (6th Gen) game. The game looks flawless.

Bastardcat
01-12-2012, 06:06 PM
I found VF Kids to be somewhat amusing. I have weakness for watching tinier versions of things smacking each other around.
Maybe that's why Midget Luchadore wrestling is so damned funny!

TheSonicRetard
01-12-2012, 06:11 PM
virtua Fighter 2 is indeed stunning to see running. It looks so incredibly smooth... much better than just about anything else at the time.

Fighters Megamix is also a beauty to see in action.

Genesis Knight
01-12-2012, 06:25 PM
The Sega Saturn (import + domestic libraries) kicks the Dreamcast's ass. Second only to the Genesis in awesomeness. And in the realms of shmups and fighters it soundly kicks the Genesis' ass, too.

sheath
01-12-2012, 07:11 PM
I'm sure everybody here knows what I think of the Saturn by now. The US Library (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/view/browse/notablegames?field_year_value_op=between&field_year_value[value]=1985-2005&field_year_value[min]=1985&field_year_value[max]=2005&field_system_value_op=word&field_system_value=Saturn&title_op=contains&title=) really is stellar though, at least according to anybody who has bothered to write about it.

Zz Badnusty
01-12-2012, 07:21 PM
When dealing with a system which no region lockout, or simple to overcome with a basic $20-$40 plug in cart, it seems to me to be entirely retarded not to buy good games simply because they're imports.

Saturn is one of the the best gaming systems of the post 16-bit generation.
It is so much more "quick" to play games than Playstation, or Gamecube, or Dreamcast, or PS2 ..etc
I'm not talking about loading. From the time the system is turned on to the time you're playing the game is so much faster than any other system up to this generation. Saturn games usually don't have a ton of bullshit developer, and publisher, and sponsor screens. And when they do they are almost always skipable by pressing start.
The memory/game save system is much better than PS, PS2, GC, and DC. I find it a burden to have to worry about individual memory cards with those other systems. On Saturn I know ALL my game saves that I care about are right there in my PAR 4-in-1, and backed-up on an official Sega Memory cart. And of course there is the legendary Saturn pad. Everything has a solid build quality to it too.

DarkDragon
01-12-2012, 07:51 PM
The best FIGHTERS were imports

you sound unfamiliar with the majority of the console's library.

I am the "real" retarded sonic eh. Fighters and rpgs are my favorite genres. I dont care about shooters.

Kamahl
01-12-2012, 08:14 PM
I am the "real" retarded sonic eh. Fighters and rpgs are my favorite genres. I dont care about shooters.
He really needs to change his picture to one of these:
http://i.imgur.com/ogLzT.png
http://i.imgur.com/rFbIp.jpg

Thenewguy
01-12-2012, 08:20 PM
Its a good system, I just don't like how much the games are overrated, and overpriced.

It also has no Sega feel to it at all either, it feels more like the successor to the PC-Engine, and I'd imagine thats where it took most of its marketshare from in Japan.

Kamahl
01-12-2012, 08:25 PM
It also has no Sega feel to it at all either, it feels more like the successor to the PC-Engine, and I'd imagine thats where it took most of its marketshare from in Japan.
Come to think of it... You're kinda right about this.

sheath
01-12-2012, 08:27 PM
I agree, the Saturn is very much a "spiritual" successor to the PC-Engine+CD. That is one of the reasons I like it so much. I also thought it was very interesting that NEC and Sega teamed up for the Dreamcast the way they did.

JDB
01-12-2012, 08:27 PM
http://i.imgur.com/rFbIp.jpg

Oh sh*t, son

Bastardcat
01-12-2012, 08:31 PM
Sweet God in heaven! That second one is the funniest and scariest thing I've seen all day!



Oh sh*t, son
I...I think that's what he's doing there.

Kamahl
01-12-2012, 08:33 PM
I only put the first one because he might not want to associate himself with modern sonic. Though he should, considering his nickname.

KnightWarrior
01-12-2012, 08:39 PM
The Saturn is the best, I need to hook mine up again

If Dark likes Fighters and RPG's try the Saturn

The Coop
01-12-2012, 08:41 PM
I was never fond of Saturn. It's by far the most pompous of the planets, what, with it's huge rings that it shows off in every damned picture like some kind of celestial bling. And all those moons. You'd think the planet would learn to keep its atmosphere closed for God's sake. But no, it's all done just to get atten-


...

What? The gaming system? OH! Yeah, um... good system.

segaddict
01-12-2012, 08:44 PM
I only recently played Saturn for the first time. I find it to be a well above average system. Not quite as good as the Dreamcast, but still a solid system. The US library is a bit weak compared to the Imports and the prices for a lot of games are too high which sucks. Other than that I would say it's worth the $40-$50 it sells for now a days.

sheath
01-12-2012, 08:47 PM
I was never fond of Saturn. It's by far the most pompous of the planets, what, with it's huge rings that it shows off in every damned picture like some kind of celestial bling. And all those moons. You'd think the planet would learn to keep its atmosphere closed for God's sake. But no, it's all done just to get atten-


...

What? The gaming system? OH! Yeah, um... good system.


^ Not enough rep in the world for this one. That was just too damned good. I do frequently dream of battling an alien robot on Io though.

Oh crap, that isn't a Saturn moon, burn 'em all!

Zz Badnusty
01-12-2012, 09:18 PM
Fighters and rpgs are my favorite genres. I dont care about shooters.
So what reason do you have for not buying a Pro Action Replay 4-in-1 and some good fighting games?

StarMist
01-12-2012, 10:34 PM
Anybody who enjoys the Playstation should enjoy the Saturn. For multilplatform games the PS version should by and large be preferred since it's by and large the original code, however some 3D games like Powerslave and (arguably) Alien Trilogy run better on Saturn, along with slight superiority in most 2D fighters' cases. Silhouette Mirage is generally regarded better on SS. Most Genesis fans prefer the thin Saturn controller for fighting games or everything over the PS's, and the Nights controller is the nonretarded predecessor of the DC's. Nights is the true Sonic 3D. It has a number of mildly good racers for those who enjoy 32 bit racing (no grinding career based bullshit) and other games worth seeing such as the Bugs though they won't set the Thames afire. But if you want to be an idiot about imports you should probably skip it; my feeling is there's no reason to own anything but a JP console.
And it is very much a Sega console = old IP were abandoned and new IP were made: Nights, Panzer Dragoon, and Sakura.

@ zz Badnusty's statement: 1st off, the laser's twice as fast and of far better make: the only reason these systems fail is abuse to their cartridge slots or lazy partial mods; many people also prefer the large single memory cart to Sony's 15 slotters (I consider it a toss-up at best). Every game save 3 can be soft reset from the controller by pressing A+B+C+Start. I don't know whether you're a strict collector or what but the Dreamcast wouldn't be worshiped all over the internet had it any sort of copy protection---copy protection which also would've kept Sega making games for it---so don't let game prices deter you, and if that isn't your thing Saturn disks are easy burns, they run even when burnt way over speed.

gamevet
01-12-2012, 10:42 PM
I am the "real" retarded sonic eh. Fighters and rpgs are my favorite genres. I dont care about shooters.



I don't buy imports so it's probably not a console for me.

The Saturn has several RPGs (North American) that are worth buying a Saturn for. Shining: The Holy Ark is one of my favorites from the 32-bit era and I enjoyed playing it more than Final Fantasy VII.

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pvGe6EA_tNM&feature=related

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My Saturn collection is mostly North American titles, with only a handful of imports. It had a pretty solid library here as well.

Zz Badnusty
01-12-2012, 10:59 PM
Every game save 3 can be soft reset from the controller by pressing A+B+C+Start.
Ah! Thanks so much for remembering to mention that. It is certainly a feature I use.
Little things like that make a huge difference in my enjoyment of playing on a particular system.

That was also a carry-over feature from the Sega-CD.

Breetai
01-13-2012, 02:41 AM
If you like fighters, shooters and RPGs, you like the Saturn. If you like these genres and say you dislike the Saturn, then you most likely haven't actually bothered to play many Saturn games at all and are probably just full of it.

j_factor
01-13-2012, 04:09 AM
Rejecting Sega Saturn is the eighth deadly sin. It just wasn't mentioned back then because it didn't exist yet.

The Saturn was an amazing system with some amazing games. Anybody that enjoys classic gaming should be able to appreciate its library. Plus, most multiplatform games are better on the Saturn.

retrospiel
01-13-2012, 04:31 AM
That was also a carry-over feature from the Sega-CD.

Still works on Dreamcast too. :)

kool kitty89
01-13-2012, 06:16 AM
I can't say I dislike the Saturn . . . but coming from me, that doesn't mean that much since I like almost every console/computer game platform in existence to some extent. (there's very few I genuinely dislike/can't have fun with)
That said, it's probably not in my top 10 preferred platforms.


Its a good system, I just don't like how much the games are overrated, and overpriced.

It also has no Sega feel to it at all either, it feels more like the successor to the PC-Engine, and I'd imagine thats where it took most of its marketshare from in Japan.

Come to think of it... You're kinda right about this.
Hmm, I never really thought of that before, but, yeah it really is rather like that. (in both the good and bad respects) ;)



I agree, the Saturn is very much a "spiritual" successor to the PC-Engine+CD. That is one of the reasons I like it so much. I also thought it was very interesting that NEC and Sega teamed up for the Dreamcast the way they did.
You do realize that NEC was only involved as far as manufacturing/licensing, right (so not all that much different than Sega's various uses of off the shelf NEC RAM/IO/buffer/CPU chips in console/arcade hardware since the 80s) . . . not unlike the NEC manufactured part in the N64. (R4300i)

The PowerVR chipsets were designed by Imagination Technologies/Videologic. (a UK company)

Hitachi was a bigger part of making the DC what it was than NEC. (SH4, particularly the custom derivative with the embedded vector co-pro)

Soulis
01-13-2012, 08:33 AM
One of the biggest reasons that i love Saturn is Quake and Duke Nukem ports. Especially Duke Nukem, it looks awesome, they made a new engine for the Saturn version that looked even better than the PC version, despite being low res. It was the best console to have if you liked first person shooters, despite Doom being one of the worst ports. That is until the N64's Turok and later, Goldeneye.

Barone
01-13-2012, 09:37 AM
I don't like the Saturn.

IMO:
1)It's design is clumsy and ugly; in all versions but a bit less in the Japanese ones.

2)The peripheral support is a mess. Many games that were designed to be played using a mouse have no mouse support on the Saturn. OTOH, lots and lots of PS1 games have mouse support and it actually has a much better library in terms of PC-ports, something that I always liked in Mega Drive and Sega CD libraries (lots of games from Amiga FTW!).
People will always say about the superior controller of Saturn and I agree. But, heck, there are hundreds of good 3rd party controllers for the PS1 and much more games offer analog support. The NegCon protocol was avaiable from the very start, while the Saturn took a long time to offer any analog support, which is great for Racing games, for an example.

3)Its library is overhyped. Yes, it is, especially here at Sega-16. I'm tired of how some guys sell this console as the only good 2D 32-bit platform. PS1 also has lots of Japanese and European 2D games, and very good ones. It has much more European games, in the same vein that Mega Drive always had and I like that.
The Saturn is usually said far superior for fighters, including those memory cartridges (which was a very good idea by Sega), but when it comes to the library there are several letdowns:
The King of Fighter series is a mess on the Saturn. For an example, the audio in KOF'97 is just horrible, and the number of animation sprites is clearly lacking as in the PS1 version that do not use any RAM expansion. However, the PS1 has a solid port of KOF'98 (bit smaller characters, much better animation when compared to KOF'97, good quality audio, reasonable loading time...) while the Saturn has nothing. To not talk about the average KOF'99...
PS1 has a watered down version (mainly in the audio department due to heavy compression, a.k.a. lack of a RAM cartridge) of The Last Blade, with good gameplay and amazing graphics, while the Saturn does not have it.
The PS1's exclusive Real Bout Garou Densetsu Special: Dominated Mind blows any Saturn's Garou Densetsu out of the water. The gameplay is fluid as hell, the audio is perfect, the loading times are minimal...
PS1 have the Samurai Spirits: Kenkaku Yubinan Pack, that includes arcade perfect versions of the fisrt two games of the series, which I love. Saturn does not have it.
The Capcom's VS series are far (faaaaarrrrrr) superior on the Saturn.
Vampire: The Night Warriors is also far superior on the Saturn, but the PS1's Darkstalkers 3 is awesome and there is no version for the Saturn.

When it comes to collections, the PS1 offer way more options and countless great collection of old games. Lots of old Atari games are on those collection, while just a few are on the Saturn... To not talk about Nichibutsu's, Jaleco's...
Saturn has tons of great 2D shotters, yes. But PS1 also has many valuable titles that Saturn does not have, like Gradius Gaiden, R-Types collection, Raiden I, Raiden II, Raiden DX, '70s Robot Anime: Geppy-X, the awesome Zanac X Zanac from Compile...

Comparing with the PS1 I'm just saying that Saturn is not, by any means, the sole holy grail of 32-bit 2D gaming as some usually say.
I could talk for hours about this, but I will let the Saturn fanboys rage now...

4)The video playback quality is on par with 3DO and a bit better than 32XCD but most of the time clearly worse than the PS1's. Hundreds of games are in both systems and the videos are almost always better on the PS1. Those old FMV-based games most of the time look clearly better on the PS1. And it's not that PS1 is fantastic or something, it's just the Saturn lacking and failing in giving a great step up compared to older systems like 3DO or 32XCD.

5)The sound. Awkward or not, hard to program or not, programmers fault or not; the fact is that many, many titles on the Saturn sound bad in terms of samples playback and sfx quality. It's just a shame.

6)3D games. Do I really need to say something? I don't think so.

IMO the PS1, in terms of library, offers much more that could be related to the Mega Drive and Sega CD libraries than the Saturn; and it's a sad thing to write about a Sega console.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 10:33 AM
Um, Darkstalkers 3 IS on the Saturn. It was released in Japan as Vampire Savior. I know because I own it. A lot of those other titles you mentioned were released after the Saturn was dead and the Dreamcast was coming out. So that's not a very fair comparison. I think the better question to ask is if those titles were on the Saturn would they be the same, better or worse. And 9 times out of 10 they would probably be the same if not better.

As for video quality, there is one thing I've always noticed with comparisons. While yes PS1 FMVs tend to have less compression artifacts, they also usually run at a lower frame rate (15fps). Saturn FMVs on other hand sometimes do have more compression artifacts, they also run at a higher frame rate (usually around 24-30fps depending on what it is). Some good examples to compare with this are the Lunar games (even the non MPEG version of SSSC shows this), Policenauts, Grandia, and many others.

Da_Shocker
01-13-2012, 11:05 AM
I bought a PSx in 99 or 2000 and I ended up selling it a few months later. I never even regret selling it. I did keep a few of my games and there are some games that I want to get for the PSx but IMO it just can't fuck with the Saturn. Now granted 85% of the third party ports are utter trash and garbage. I also hate it when people said that it was an import only system. There are tons of worthwhile domestic game with that huge eye sore cases that are fragile as hell.

sheath
01-13-2012, 11:23 AM
^ I bought a PS1 in 1997 and sold it and all of my games by 1999. When Castlevania Chronicles and Strider 2 were new I started wanting one again but ended up getting a PS2 to play Soul Reaver 2. I sold that PS2 to get a Gamecube in 2005, but ended up picking up another PS2 sometime after that. The Playstations are, by far, my least favorite platforms. It's not just my hatred of Sony that caused this either, I am actually annoyed to the point of anger by most of its popular games, they just aren't that well designed (the Action games) in general. I don't give a crap about JRPGs or story games so maybe that doesn't help.


You do realize that NEC was only involved as far as manufacturing/licensing, right (so not all that much different than Sega's various uses of off the shelf NEC RAM/IO/buffer/CPU chips in console/arcade hardware since the 80s) . . . not unlike the NEC manufactured part in the N64. (R4300i)

The PowerVR chipsets were designed by Imagination Technologies/Videologic. (a UK company)

Hitachi was a bigger part of making the DC what it was than NEC. (SH4, particularly the custom derivative with the embedded vector co-pro)

You're shitting me. NEC didn't make any Dreamcast games?

StarMist
01-13-2012, 11:30 AM
I don't like the Saturn.
Let me begin with a brief shallow bow towards you for not dispensing the mindless PS hatred customary here. You may recall it was #1 of my top 5 systems in that thread a while back; Saturn was 1a. You will have no trouble remembering I like to argue.


IMO:
1)It's design is clumsy and ugly; in all versions but a bit less in the Japanese ones.The Playstation is called the Playstation, which sounds as if it's from Fisher-Price. Oh well, it's highly unimportant for either system, but I think the US Saturn fairly handsome and the white Japanese beautiful. The model 2 Sega CD would fit my idea of an ugly console, it looks like an ashtray.


2)The peripheral support is a mess. Many games that were designed to be played using a mouse have no mouse support on the Saturn. OTOH, lots and lots of PS1 games have mouse support and it actually has a much better library in terms of PC-ports, something that I always liked in Mega Drive and Sega CD libraries (lots of games from Amiga FTW!).True. >>>

People will always say about the superior controller of Saturn and I agree. But, heck, there are hundreds of good 3rd party controllers for the PS1 and much more games offer analog support. The NegCon protocol was avaiable from the very start, while the Saturn took a long time to offer any analog support, which is great for Racing games, for an example.Both fail for arcade games in that neither came boxed with a joystick; controllers are shit. However, the PS pad was competently designed for next gen games with its 8 buttons and digital pad, only the dimensions were designed for 8 year olds. This puts me a bit further on the PS side here.


3)Its library is overhyped. Yes, it is, especially here at Sega-16. I'm tired of how some guys sell this console as the only good 2D 32-bit platform. PS1 also has lots of Japanese and European 2D games, and very good ones. It has much more European games, in the same vein that Mega Drive always had and I like that. Here's where things go wrong: nobody needs to own just one anymore. Back in the day I stood with the Genesis over the SNES because the cost of the SNES console alone would've meant three or five Genesis games I was missing out on right there and I obviously couldn't support both. Things were a bit different for the Saturn since it got so much less publicity, but on this site the SS vs the PS is played out as if and in lieu of the Genesis vs the SNES war. Yet nobody outside the budgeted collectors need concern himself with this nowadays; you and I aren't, right? So let's drop that end.


The Saturn is usually said far superior for fighters, including those memory cartridges (which was a very good idea by Sega), but when it comes to the library there are several letdowns:

the PS1 has a solid port of KOF'98 >>>

PS1 has a watered down version of The Last Blade >>>

The PS1's exclusive Real Bout Garou Densetsu Special >>>
Come on man, the Saturn has GA the Duel and Rabbit. (all right....) Also has Groove On Fight which I'll gladly take over all the Darkstalkers.

PS1 have the Samurai Spirits: Kenkaku Yubinan Pack, that includes arcade perfect versions These are not arcade-perfect.


Saturn has tons of great 2D shotters, yes. Not everyone is interested solely in 2D gaming. 3D shooters are an area where the Saturn makes up some ground, particularly with the Panzer Dragoons but also with a few funkier little titles (and I don't mean Terra Cresta 3D), albeit I'll take Einhander over RSG any day of the week and Philosoma is cool. Thunderforce 5 (polygon built) is broadly considered better on Saturn as is the mixture game Soukyugurentai. LS2 is more interesting at the Saturn's slow speed although the PS clearly runs more as intended--and the PS also has #3. The Saturn also has the Thunderforce Packs, ie the only unbroken version of TFIV.


4)The video playback quality does indeed tend to be poor, with the Truemotion stuff rather on the better side. Honestly I no longer care about this, as painful as it would've been in `95; won't attempt to speak for others here.


6)3D games. Do I really need to say something? I don't think so.If you're implying only numbers here then yes of course it's the PS, but if it's version quality then after the Saturn's first year or so it comes down to individual title and taste, ie would you rather have smoother outlines, higher framerate, less popup, more colour, and so on, each of which can vary from system to system. To be on the safe and cheap side I'd take the PS shooting blind, but the Saturn's conversions aren't always out and out failures even apart from fps games. Plus again the Saturn has exlcusives like Nights, Burning Rangers, the PDs, and Bulk Slash, and not everybody needs to own/play a mass of games.


IMO the PS1, in terms of library, offers much more that could be related to the Mega Drive and Sega CD libraries than the Saturn; and it's a sad thing to write about a Sega console.
Some Genesis likes on Saturn = Astal. Hyper Duel (hori shooter from Techno Soft). Wolf Fang (hori mech shooter/run n gun). Thunderforce Gold Packs 1 and 2. Legend of Oasis. Shinobi X. Dark Saviour (like Landstalker). Battle Garegga; Batsugun; Layer Section (3 of the best turbo charged oldschool vert shmups). Guardian Force (variably scrolling hori-screened shooter with you as a tank; by Success). Guardian Heroes; Silhouette Mirage preferred version (Treasure 2D games). Princess Crown (precursor to Odin Sphere). Wonder 3 (trio of puzzle, platformer, shooter, all very much 16 bit in style). Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang. Gunbirds 1 and 2 and Strikers superior versions (PS Strikers 2 is better but both are inferior to the Gunbird games anyway). Sengoku games (more hori shooters---the hori being a good deal more 16 bit oriented than the vert; both the Genny's and the SNES's shooter masterpieces are hori). Mr Bones is a worthwhile game too.

That list should be more than sufficient an inducement to pick up a Saturn.
And doing so doesn't mean anybody has to throw out his Playstation.

from sheath re PS/PS2
I am actually annoyed to the point of anger by most of its popular games, they just aren't that well designed (the Action games) in general.This is why I dislike the PS2 so, I can't find any good action outside the Tenchu games (#2 by Sega, but you've probably checked in to it by now), the Contras, and Sky Gunner.

gamevet
01-13-2012, 11:48 AM
I don't like the Saturn.

IMO:
1)It's design is clumsy and ugly; in all versions but a bit less in the Japanese ones.

I think the Saturn is one of the better looking consoles. It looks better than the Playstation, with its ugly grey shell.



2)The peripheral support is a mess. Many games that were designed to be played using a mouse have no mouse support on the Saturn. OTOH, lots and lots of PS1 games have mouse support and it actually has a much better library in terms of PC-ports, something that I always liked in Mega Drive and Sega CD libraries (lots of games from Amiga FTW!).
People will always say about the superior controller of Saturn and I agree. But, heck, there are hundreds of good 3rd party controllers for the PS1 and much more games offer analog support. The NegCon protocol was avaiable from the very start, while the Saturn took a long time to offer any analog support, which is great for Racing games, for an example.

The Stunner is one of the best light guns on the market. Virtua-On has its own controller in Japan. The Saturn also has a nice flight stick. Yeah, there were more peripherals for the Playstation, but calling out mouse support for PC games doesn't matter much, unless you're playing an RTS like Warcraft II.




6)3D games. Do I really need to say something? I don't think so.

Sega Rally is one of the best looking 3D racing games from that generation. Virtua-Cop 1&2 were pretty close to arcade perfect. And Virtua Fighter Remix looked outstanding. Yeah, for every 10 shitty looking 3D games on the Saturn, I could name 1 outstanding one. The Playstation has it's fair share of crappy looking 3D games, including Cool Boarder with it screen tearing mess.



IMO the PS1, in terms of library, offers much more that could be related to the Mega Drive and Sega CD libraries than the Saturn; and it's a sad thing to write about a Sega console.

Honestly, the Sega CD library is nothing to boast about. There's about a dozen solid/fun titles on the system, but most of the rest is garbage. I sold my Sega CD to buy Saturn games. Without the Snatcher and the Lunar games, I really don't miss it.

sheath
01-13-2012, 11:57 AM
I can't see this any other way, the original Playstation and PS2 are two of the most ugly and shoddily manufactured game consoles ever. Both consoles should be much better known for Disk Read Errors than the Xbox 360. The original Playstation barely has a bios screen and the drive door, open and power buttons, just scream "cheap". This is why I just could not believe how many people here didn't see the bias in Edge's articles about the console, how can everything "be just so right" when the console looks and feels like a cheap toy?

The PS2 looks like a car stereo amplifier and its bios menu is only a little bit better than a cheap DVD player. Having repaired hundreds of PS2's with disk read errors it is safe to say that console wasn't designed to last in any way.

Thenewguy
01-13-2012, 12:04 PM
Thunderforce 5 (polygon built) is broadly considered better on SaturnThe two versions are comparable.

I've played both, and personally I struggle to see any difference between them, the PS1 version had slightly better texturing and transparencies, and an added boss rush mode, whilst the Saturn had a more complex background on level 3

StarMist
01-13-2012, 12:13 PM
I can't see this any other way, the original Playstation and PS2 are two of the most ugly and shoddily manufactured game consoles ever. Both consoles should be much better known for Disk Read Errors than the Xbox 360. The original Playstation barely has a bios screen and the drive door, open and power buttons, just scream "cheap". This is why I just could not believe how many people here didn't see the bias in Edge's articles about the console, how can everything "be just so right" when the console looks and feels like a cheap toy?

The PS2 looks like a car stereo amplifier and its bios menu is only a little bit better than a cheap DVD player. Having repaired hundreds of PS2's with disk read errors it is safe to say that console wasn't designed to last in any way.
Man you hate some Sony. What games did you have on that PS you sold? cz I bought only three or four new games the first year, the rest were bargain bin stuff, and I thought it a godly fun machine.
If the PS had been better built it would've cost another $100. Just as with all the extra stuff the Genesis should've had in it. Lasers cost money. The colour was blah and the name sucks but that was still the most powerful console till the Dreamcast and the hardware leap from the Genesis to it was jaw dropping. The PS2 problems come out to more of the same---that being said I purchased a filthy, beaten PS2 and proceeded to treat it like shit, lend it to people who drop it, spill ash and drink on it, yank or push the tray as needed, put who knows how badly damaged disks inside it, and it still plays as well as the day I got it. Of course by that day the CD function was already gone but my ugly old grey Playstation's still intact despite a mod chip and many overburnt disks so naught to worry on there.

edit re TFV
from Thenewguy:
The two versions are comparable.

I've played both, and personally I struggle to see any difference between them, the PS1 version had slightly better texturing and transparencies, and an added boss rush mode, whilst the Saturn had a more complex background on level 3
I did say "broadly". I don't recognise every little difference between every multiplatform game either, but this one's usually brought up because the graphics are so bare: were it something lush like Einhander I doubt there'd be much mention. Kollision for example prefers (or at least didn't mind) the Saturn's Donpachi despite its well known slowdown. Anyhow the standard statement is all the Saturn's BGs are superior...which escapes me, but what the hell. My response was not entirely a display of personal preference.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 12:20 PM
I've noticed things like the sprite based graphics usually are more pronounced in the Saturn version of Thunder Force 5. For example in Stage 5 (I think it's Stage 5), the Saturn version you have a buttload of cloud sprites that condense down as you break through the atmosphere and then you see the Earth below. On the PS1 version you just have the static Earth background. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of similar effects in other stages. Also I've heard most of the VDP2 effects are seriously gimped in the PS1 version.

sheath
01-13-2012, 12:21 PM
Man you hate some Sony. What games did you have on that PS you sold? cz I bought only three or four new games the first year, the rest were bargain bin stuff, and I thought it a godly fun machine.
If the PS had been better built it would've cost another $100. Just as with all the extra stuff the Genesis should've had in it. Lasers cost money. The colour was blah and the name sucks but that was still the most powerful console till the Dreamcast and the hardware leap from the Genesis to it was jaw dropping. The PS2 problems come out to more of the same---that being said I purchased a filthy, beaten PS2 and proceeded to treat it like shit, lend it to people who drop it, spill ash and drink on it, yank or push the tray as needed, put who knows how badly damaged disks inside it, and it still plays as well as the day I got it. Of course by that day the CD function was already gone but my ugly old grey Playstation's still intact despite a mod chip and many overburnt disks so naught to worry on there.

I do hate me some Sony, it's true.

A good amount of my game time was taken up by the PS1 in 1997 and again in 2001, just nothing in between. I sold my original PS1 with Tenchu (which I still like), Blood Omen Legacy of Kain, and around five other games I can't remember (none of which were popular). My roomate at the time had a launch PS1 that we had to play upside down, and I played his Colony Wars, Final Fantasy 7, and rented Metal Gear Solid. After finishing each I have never wanted to play them again. I have since collected close to 20 games for the PS1 though, mostly for comparison videos or launch title appreciation. I have Tekken 3, Metal Gear Solid and Gran Turismo 2 just to complete my Bleemcast! discs, even at 480p I can't stand the look or gameplay of any of these.

StarMist
01-13-2012, 12:38 PM
I sold my original PS1 with Tenchu (which I still like), Blood Omen Legacy of Kain, and around five other games I can't remember (none of which were popular). My roomate at the time had a launch PS1 that we had to play upside down, and I played his Colony Wars, Final Fantasy 7, and rented Metal Gear Solid.
My early-ish games were Wipeout, Blood Omen, Tekken 1 and 2, Toshinden, Loaded, Destruction Derby, Suikoden...Rented many games back then too, like PO'ed, Jumping Flash, I'll get melancholy thinking of them all. Wipeout XL I bought on launch day, completely beat and unlocked 2 days later, and never played again. FF7 I got the first US print. Sorry I've a poor head for dates but that should get us pretty well caught up to `97. Look at those titles. There's never been another system I liked so much of the hype games for; the only huge franchise I flat out hated was Tomb Raider---puny racers like GT and RR I just despised and still do.
It doesn't seem you just picked total crap. You just hate you some Sony.
How did you feel about the PS2 Tenchu games? I have a foggy feeling you told me before but humour me, this thread's due for some derailment.


I have Tekken 3, Metal Gear Solid and Gran Turismo 2 just to complete my Bleemcast! discs, even at 480p I can't stand the look or gameplay of any of these. Tekken 3's unlikely to please anyone who enjoys the early VFs. Metal Gear Solid is top notch (except the rehash aspect, but it only takes a whiff of Kojima to discern him a one-trick pony), so that's just you. GT2 is GT, shovelware through and through--not that I supposed you liked any racers but the straight up arcade variety.

Thenewguy
01-13-2012, 12:44 PM
Best action game on PS1 was Silent Bomber :rock:

OLHPVxGJ66M

Da_Shocker
01-13-2012, 12:47 PM
This is what the Saturn was originally suppose to look like but why oh why did SoJ change this wonderful silver console to the plain gray Saturn that we got?

http://www.shinforce.com/saturn/information/console-saturn-jp-450x330.jpg

Barone
01-13-2012, 12:56 PM
Um, Darkstalkers 3 IS on the Saturn. It was released in Japan as Vampire Savior. I know because I own it.
Sorry, my bad.
My point is that the distance (in terms of 2D fighting games) is not so abysmal as some people can suggest.


A lot of those other titles you mentioned were released after the Saturn was dead and the Dreamcast was coming out. So that's not a very fair comparison.
Why? Is it my fault that the system had failed to compete and died earlier? No.
The PS1 has many good titles that were released after the Saturn's death, it's a fact not an unfair comparison or something. Those titles count to the PS1 library as the others and what why should I care if the other console died or not?
People here are always talking about Saturn exclusives, so accept some PS1 exclusives; regardless any esoteric "no,no" criteria.


I think the better question to ask is if those titles were on the Saturn would they be the same, better or worse. And 9 times out of 10 they would probably be the same if not better.
Delusional fanboysm here.
Delusional since it has no point and it's totally non-sense to "imagine how that game would run in a buried system".
Fanboysm since I just pointed that several 2D Fighters on Saturn also ended up being pretty bad ports.

By the way, there must be a reason why companies like Family Soft abandoned the Saturn to go to PS1 after sometime: it was easier to develop games for the PS1. It's not a programmers fault, it's Sega's fault.

Look at Asuka 120% Limited: Burning Fest. Limited (Saturn) VS Asuka 120% Final: Burning Fest. Final (PS1). You'll say they are different games and that the later is a evolved version of the first, so it's not fair to compare, but it's like this all the time... KOF'98 (PS1) is much better, in terms of port quality (gameplay, animation, sound) than KOF'97 on the Saturn. If the companies chose to go with the PS1 instead of Saturn, it's not my fault!




As for video quality, there is one thing I've always noticed with comparisons. While yes PS1 FMVs tend to have less compression artifacts, they also usually run at a lower frame rate (15fps). Saturn FMVs on other hand sometimes do have more compression artifacts, they also run at a higher frame rate (usually around 24-30fps depending on what it is). Some good examples to compare with this are the Lunar games (even the non MPEG version of SSSC shows this), Policenauts, Grandia, and many others.
I don't know what comparisons are these that you are talking about. I know that many Sega boys use to compare Saturn VS PS1 using a PS2 to play the games and that is just a fail practice from the very beginning, 'cause many (mainly Japanese titles; but also all region earlier or later games; games from small companies and less known) that run fine in a PS1 actually have additional slowdown or glitches when played using a PS2. With that said, I would like to see several comparisons using a real PS1 vs a Saturn (not only a half dozen titles chosen by some Sega lover).

What I can tell you is that many early titles, like The Need For Speed, have much better video playback quality in the PS1 compared to the Saturn or 3DO or even the PC version and I really didn't notice the choppy framerate that you said (15 fps is something really easy to notice).
The same for games like Brain Dead 13.



Let me begin with a brief shallow bow towards you for not dispensing the mindless PS hatred customary here. You may recall it was #1 of my top 5 systems in that thread a while back; Saturn was 1a. You will have no trouble remembering I like to argue.
ahahahah!


The Playstation is called the Playstation, which sounds as if it's from Fisher-Price. Oh well, it's highly unimportant for either system, but I think the US Saturn fairly handsome and the white Japanese beautiful. The model 2 Sega CD would fit my idea of an ugly console, it looks like an ashtray.
I always thought that Playstation was the nickname of a travesty.

I like the model 2 Sega CD...


Both fail for arcade games in that neither came boxed with a joystick; controllers are shit. However, the PS pad was competently designed for next gen games with its 8 buttons and digital pad, only the dimensions were designed for 8 year olds. This puts me a bit further on the PS side here.
True.


Here's where things go wrong: nobody needs to own just one anymore. Back in the day I stood with the Genesis over the SNES because the cost of the SNES console alone would've meant three or five Genesis games I was missing out on right there and I obviously couldn't support both. Things were a bit different for the Saturn since it got so much less publicity, but on this site the SS vs the PS is played out as if and in lieu of the Genesis vs the SNES war. Yet nobody outside the budgeted collectors need concern himself with this nowadays; you and I aren't, right? So let's drop that end.
I agree with you.
What bugs me is that I enter in a thread that should be talking about the dislike for the Saturn and I found many people praising it and saying all that very same old shit and many of that old shit is just wrong.
One thing that I really like about some Saturn fanboys is that they are always blaming everyone else for not knowing the Saturn's library, while they're, for the most part, ignorant about the PS1 library. Just saying...


Come on man, the Saturn has GA the Duel and Rabbit. (all right....) Also has Groove On Fight which I'll gladly take over all the Darkstalkers.
Rabbit, hahahaha!

I would take Gouketuji Ichizoku 2: Chottodake Saikyou Densetsu on the PS1 over its sorta successor, Groove On fight, any day of the week. GI2 has an old graphic style that I prefer and much better music IMO.
PS1 has some other exclusives, like those good Gundam Battle bla bla games and the two SNES games with improved graphics: Kidou Senki Gundam W: The Battle and Kidou Butouden G Gundam: The Battle.
And some weird but enjoyable ones like Tatsunoko Fight and Samurai Deeper Kyo.


These are not arcade-perfect.
OK. But they are very close and a blast to play. The sound effects and the music are just awesome.



Not everyone is interested solely in 2D gaming. 3D shooters are an area where the Saturn makes up some ground, particularly with the Panzer Dragoons but also with a few funkier little titles (and I don't mean Terra Cresta 3D), albeit I'll take Einhander over RSG any day of the week and Philosoma is cool. Thunderforce 5 (polygon built) is broadly considered better on Saturn as is the mixture game Soukyugurentai. LS2 is more interesting at the Saturn's slow speed although the PS clearly runs more as intended--and the PS also has #3. The Saturn also has the Thunderforce Packs, ie the only unbroken version of TFIV.
I was just fighting against the "2D myth" about the Saturn and I agree with what you said.



does indeed tend to be poor, with the Truemotion stuff rather on the better side. Honestly I no longer care about this, as painful as it would've been in `95; won't attempt to speak for others here.
The same here.



If you're implying only numbers here then yes of course it's the PS, but if it's version quality then after the Saturn's first year or so it comes down to individual title and taste, ie would you rather have smoother outlines, higher framerate, less popup, more colour, and so on, each of which can vary from system to system. To be on the safe and cheap side I'd take the PS shooting blind, but the Saturn's conversions aren't always out and out failures even apart from fps games. Plus again the Saturn has exlcusives like Nights, Burning Rangers, the PDs, and Bulk Slash, and not everybody needs to own/play a mass of games.
Not only about numbers, but several "key" cross-platform 3D titles are better to play in the PS1.


Some Genesis likes on Saturn = Astal. Hyper Duel (hori shooter from Techno Soft). Wolf Fang (hori mech shooter/run n gun). Thunderforce Gold Packs 1 and 2. Legend of Oasis. Shinobi X. Dark Saviour (like Landstalker). Battle Garegga; Batsugun; Layer Section (3 of the best turbo charged oldschool vert shmups). Guardian Force (variably scrolling hori-screened shooter with you as a tank; by Success). Guardian Heroes; Silhouette Mirage preferred version (Treasure 2D games). Princess Crown (precursor to Odin Sphere). Wonder 3 (trio of puzzle, platformer, shooter, all very much 16 bit in style). Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang. Gunbirds 1 and 2 and Strikers superior versions (PS Strikers 2 is better but both are inferior to the Gunbird games anyway). Sengoku games (more hori shooters---the hori being a good deal more 16 bit oriented than the vert; both the Genny's and the SNES's shooter masterpieces are hori). Mr Bones is a worthwhile game too.

That list should be more than sufficient an inducement to pick up a Saturn.
And doing so doesn't mean anybody has to throw out his Playstation.
But there are many, many PS1 titles that just sums up every genre that I like in The Genesis/Mega Drive library.
I really love the old-style PC adventures (point-and-click and some others) that the PS1 has to offer and that Saturn does not.
Or games like Bedlam, that I can enjoy with a mouse without the need to set an old environment in my PC.
Or isometric action games like Project Overkill.
Or International SuperStar Soccer Deluxe, with new in game narration but the very same old graphics that I like.
Or a improved James Pond 2 version, with awesome graphics and sound.
Or...

Also, the PS1 complements the Genesis library with several titles that were, until then, SNES exclusives. While it almost never had an exclusive Genesis game ported to it.


@gamevet
You're always wrong and so I will not waste my time with you.
I like to discuss with people that actually know something or have good opinions to share or that, at least, do some search and read here and there.
You are not one of those, for sure, so I'm sorry but I'll leave your rough thoughts for someone else.
Do not waste your time quoting my posts 'cause I will never quote yours.

sheath
01-13-2012, 01:02 PM
My early-ish games were Wipeout, Blood Omen, Tekken 1 and 2, Toshinden, Loaded, Destruction Derby, Suikoden...Rented many games back then too, like PO'ed, Jumping Flash, I'll get melancholy thinking of them all. Wipeout XL I bought on launch day, completely beat and unlocked 2 days later, and never played again. FF7 I got the first US print. Sorry I've a poor head for dates but that should get us pretty well caught up to `97. Look at those titles. There's never been another system I liked so much of the hype games for; the only huge franchise I flat out hated was Tomb Raider---puny racers like GT and RR I just despised and still do.
It doesn't seem you just picked total crap. You just hate you some Sony.
How did you feel about the PS2 Tenchu games? I have a foggy feeling you told me before but humour me, this thread's due for some derailment.

I think I actually own all those early games except for Suikoden, PO'd and Jumping Flash (which I should get). I remember also renting and playing Fighting Force, Ninja and One back in the day now that I think of it, none of those have stuck with me either. I always got the impression that Playstation exclusive owners pretty much loved these games because they were on the Playstation and didn't suck (a lot of the early library was horrible and barely 3D in gameplay).

It also doesn't help at all that I am generally unimpressed by any console only franchises and consider Arcade-Action games supreme on any platform. While Virtua Cop, Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter 2 and Vitual On were joy on a stick for me, PS1 franchises struck me in the same way mainstay NES franchises do with a solid "meh".

I really should play the Wipeout games through, I just have a low tolerance for racing games these days, but XL is right down my alley and I own it for the PS1 and Saturn. Tomb Raider was good for the time, and I would argue it is better as a game than Mario 64, I played the hell out of it on Saturn. FF7 I played all the way through, but its midi music, FMV background effects and non-ending totally blew me out in the end. I do hate Gran Turismo and Ridge Racer games, I cannot see how people think these racers play well.

I think I only recently picked up the first PS2 Tenchu game, but I have had its port on the Xbox since 2003 and have enjoyed it when I remember to play it.


Tekken 3's unlikely to please anyone who enjoys the early VFs. Metal Gear Solid is top notch (except the rehash aspect, but it only takes a whiff of Kojima to discern him a one-trick pony), so that's just you. GT2 is GT, shovelware through and through--not that I supposed you liked any racers but the straight up arcade variety.

Metal Gear Solid is top notch in production quality I will give it that. In gameplay it is frequently cheap trial and error nonsense that I always hate though. I'm thinking specifically of the stair well scene towards the end, and all of the boss fights.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 01:07 PM
The reason I brought up that those late PS1 games don't really count or are fair to bring up is because by that time the Dreamcast was out, and I'm pretty sure a lot of those ended up on the Dreamcast where they are better than their PS1 counterparts. If Dreamcast wasn't out I'm sure they would have probably ended up on the Saturn, and most likely by that time SNK would have moved onto the 4 MB Ram cart, which would have significantly helped. The main problem that we have with 2D fighters on the PS1 is a lack of RAM. This is the reason for the long loads and the cut frames of animation. The Saturn without any additional carts has more RAM than the PS1, throwing in the RAM carts makes the Saturn have significantly more RAM than the PS1. If using the RAM carts results in a port that's worse than the PS1 version, then that is a problem of bad coding, not the fault of the system.

As for video quality, again look at the games I mentioned. It's blatantly obvious in Policenauts as well as the Lunars. And I'm not talking about actual gameplay, I'm talking about FMV playback.

Gogogadget
01-13-2012, 01:10 PM
I just bought my first Saturn, give me a week or so and i'll let you know :')

sheath
01-13-2012, 01:14 PM
There are a ton of post-Saturn PS1 games, most of the library in fact, and a ton of those never came out for another platform. The PS1, like the NES, really did shine after it was the only viable platform of its generation still on the market. I personally had moved on to the Dreamcast by then, but that doesn't mean there weren't probably more great PS1 exclusives at the time.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 01:18 PM
There are a ton of post-PS1 games, most of the library in fact, and a ton of those never came out for another platform. The PS1, like the NES, really did shine after it was the only viable platform of its generation still on the market. I personally had moved on to the Dreamcast by then, but that doesn't mean there weren't probably more great PS1 exclusives at the time.

Oh I'm well aware of that, I'm just bringing up that just because they came out after the Saturn was discontinued doesn't mean the Saturn still didn't have an edge over the PS1 in 2D, or that the Saturn couldn't have handled those 2D games as good as if not better than the PS1.

Barone
01-13-2012, 01:27 PM
The reason I brought up that those late PS1 games don't really count or are fair to bring up is because by that time the Dreamcast was out, and I'm pretty sure a lot of those ended up on the Dreamcast where they are better than their PS1 counterparts. If Dreamcast wasn't out I'm sure they would have probably ended up on the Saturn, and most likely by that time SNK would have moved onto the 4 MB Ram cart, which would have significantly helped. The main problem that we have with 2D fighters on the PS1 is a lack of RAM. This is the reason for the long loads and the cut frames of animation. The Saturn without any additional carts has more RAM than the PS1, throwing in the RAM carts makes the Saturn have significantly more RAM than the PS1. If using the RAM carts results in a port that's worse than the PS1 version, then that is a problem of bad coding, not the fault of the system.
IMO it's fair to talk about any game of PS1 or Saturn. The Dreamcast you should compare with the PS2.

Well, that thing about ram is very basic and almost everyone in this board for more than 1 moth knows about that.
There's no need to mention that and I already gave some examples that broke your rule of "always better" or "always with more animation frames" or "always faster to load" in the Saturn. Give me an example of a 2D fighting game on the Saturn that, without the use of the cartridge RAM, loads faster than Dominated Mind.
What you call "bad coding" can be, in many situations, a harder system to program for. Heck, evenpeople from the SoJ said that the hardware was a pain in the butt and that they should have went with just one and more powerful processor. The sound system architecture is a mess...


As for video quality, again look at the games I mentioned. It's blatantly obvious in Policenauts as well as the Lunars. And I'm not talking about actual gameplay, I'm talking about FMV playback.
I'll look, but, again, I can remember of dozens of games with better FMV playback on the PS1 and nothing about low framerate.

The sad thing about Policenauts is that the PS1 version has a translation patch and the Saturn's doesn't.

sheath
01-13-2012, 01:34 PM
The context of Yu Suzuki and others from SOJ complaining about the Saturn being complicated is trying to eek every last drop of performance out of the system. They were trying to make the Saturn into a Model 2, or even a Model 3 capable system and fell short of their own expectations.

The context of their comments had nothing to do with the PS1 or N64, and everything to do with trying to get the system to run as a true Dual CPU system, rather than a Master/Slave CPU setup. In this context, a fast SH3 would have been preferable to dual SH2s. Actually, that would have been preferable in any context except for the huge drain on cost the SH3 would have been.

StarMist
01-13-2012, 01:36 PM
I would take Gouketuji Ichizoku 2: Chottodake Saikyou Densetsu on the PS1 over its sorta successor, Groove On fight, any day of the week. GI2 has an old graphic style that I prefer and much better music IMO. I prefer Groove On Fight for being a departure from the Power Instinct series. I tried to recommend it to Baloo here as having a slight Eternal Champions vibe.


PS1 has some other exclusives, like those good Gundam Battle bla bla games and the two SNES games with improved graphics: Kidou Senki Gundam W: The Battle and Kidou Butouden G Gundam: The Battle.
And some weird but enjoyable ones like Tatsunoko Fight and Samurai Deeper Kyo.And more than that. Everybody knows PS wins for numbers....but Saturn has Fighters History Dynamite! You can fight an ox!!



OK. But they are very close and a blast to play. The sound effects and the music are just awesome.Yes indeed. We need a new Samurai Spirits on PS3.


Not only about numbers, but several "key" cross-platform 3D titles are better to play in the PS1.
Which? Tomb Raider, a franchise I will not play, I've only heard of having graphical errors on Saturn. Pandemonium/Magical Hoppers sadly is better on PS, and of course Saturn didn't get the sequel. By the bye I don't know how much digging here you've done but 17days had the suggestion somebody ought to sprite swap Sonic into Pandemonium to create a true Sonic Saturn. It'd be pretty amusing (with the sfx and controller lag corrected) but I think Nights would be by far the more apt sprite. Wipeout's controls should not have been altered. Gex and Johnny Bazookatone (which is a good game if one can tune out the music) lack a few codes the originals and PS versions had. Is Loaded screwed up? Toshinden would be a push to designate "key" (so would Loaded I'm aware).


But there are many, many PS1 titles that just sums up every genre that I like in The Genesis/Mega Drive library. Name a few obscure ones, ie not Little Ralph, Rapid Reload, Panzer Bandit, and so on. If you're going to use Eng language exclusives specify that, as eg Discworld was released on Saturn in JP yet some members may not know it. Incidentally Silent Bomber, which I have sitting beside my PS, I would deem Genesis like since its 3D construction isn't used for gameplay purposes.


Also, the PS1 complements the Genesis library with several titles that were, until then, SNES exclusives. While it almost never had an exclusive Genesis game ported to it.Whilst which system never had a G excl ported to it? Why should the PS have when Sega was planning to build another console, or the Saturn when the point was to make new games? (Yes I remember Sonic Jam).
And, actually, Fighters' History Dynamite on the SNES, whilst Magic Knight Rayearth was a SFam game.


Jumping Flash (which I should get). Don't forget #2.


I really should play the Wipeout games through, I just have a low tolerance for racing games these days, but XL is right down my alley and I own it for the PS1 and Saturn.
I don't know the Saturn's XL but its Wipeout's controls were altered from a divine finesse setup to much more of a rally feel.


FF7 I played all the way through, but its midi music, FMV background effects and non-ending totally blew me out in the end. You don't like its music? Man, we only agree on the ending---that was risible.


Metal Gear Solid is top notch in production quality I will give it that. In gameplay it is frequently cheap trial and error nonsense that I always hate though. I'm thinking specifically of the stair well scene towards the end, and all of the boss fights.Yeah, I almost said the gameplay was exactly the same as on the NES; the new angles and vantage points make no difference, it's a pig in a poke experience.

Thenewguy
01-13-2012, 01:47 PM
Woooo! Ridge Racer! Woooo! :chewie:

http://i44.tinypic.com/dcstuv.pnghttp://i41.tinypic.com/2zh2yk7.gif

sheath
01-13-2012, 01:51 PM
Woooo! Ridge Racer! Woooo! :chewie:

http://i44.tinypic.com/dcstuv.pnghttp://i41.tinypic.com/2zh2yk7.gif




It's like a baby doll's head on a teenage boy's body...

Thenewguy
01-13-2012, 01:53 PM
You're too late now, I got into the thread before the obligatory Ridge Racer hate started.

EDIT: Damn it! you already beat me to it on the last page! :( :fit:

j_factor
01-13-2012, 01:57 PM
2)The peripheral support is a mess. Many games that were designed to be played using a mouse have no mouse support on the Saturn. OTOH, lots and lots of PS1 games have mouse support and it actually has a much better library in terms of PC-ports, something that I always liked in Mega Drive and Sega CD libraries (lots of games from Amiga FTW!).
People will always say about the superior controller of Saturn and I agree. But, heck, there are hundreds of good 3rd party controllers for the PS1 and much more games offer analog support. The NegCon protocol was avaiable from the very start, while the Saturn took a long time to offer any analog support, which is great for Racing games, for an example.

This really makes no sense. The Saturn has better peripheral support than the PSX. Many (though not all) analog-supported games are interoperable between the steering wheel, mission stick, and analog pad. This is not true on the Playstation, where games for the neGcon -- which, as an aside, is kind of a shitty controller in my opinion -- don't support analog on anything but the neGcon, games for the original Dual Analog joystick don't support other analog devices, and games for the Dual Shock controller don't support the earlier controllers. Also, the Dual Shock was the Playstation's first "standard" analog controller; not a lot of games supported the earlier devices. I'm pretty sure, in fact, that the Saturn's analog steering wheel and mission stick were more commonly supported than the Playstation's early analog devices. And, since the Saturn's analog pad came out significantly earlier than the Dual Shock, there was more "regular" analog support on the Saturn for a good period of time. MechWarrior 2 is a good example, it supports analog in the Saturn version only. Of course, more total games support analog on the Playstation, after all it lasted much longer and has a larger library.

I have no idea what you're talking about with the mouse. The Saturn has pretty good mouse support. Worms supports the Saturn mouse but not the Playstation mouse. Even Virtua Cop supports the mouse, which is above and beyond IMO. What Saturn games did you feel were sorely missing mouse support? I honestly can't think of anything.


3)Its library is overhyped. Yes, it is, especially here at Sega-16. I'm tired of how some guys sell this console as the only good 2D 32-bit platform. PS1 also has lots of Japanese and European 2D games, and very good ones. It has much more European games, in the same vein that Mega Drive always had and I like that.

I love the Playstation, and many of its 2D games. Praising one doesn't have to come at the expense of the other.


The Saturn is usually said far superior for fighters, including those memory cartridges (which was a very good idea by Sega), but when it comes to the library there are several letdowns:

I'm not going to get into specifics, but I will say that I have found very, very few fighting games worth playing on the Playstation. Most of them are either better on Saturn or better on Dreamcast.


When it comes to collections, the PS1 offer way more options and countless great collection of old games. Lots of old Atari games are on those collection, while just a few are on the Saturn... To not talk about Nichibutsu's, Jaleco's...

Saturn has just as much if not more of this, granted the bulk of it is in Japan.


Saturn has tons of great 2D shotters, yes. But PS1 also has many valuable titles that Saturn does not have, like Gradius Gaiden, R-Types collection, Raiden I, Raiden II, Raiden DX, '70s Robot Anime: Geppy-X, the awesome Zanac X Zanac from Compile...

This is true, the Playstation is also said to have the superior versions of In the Hunt and Strikers 1945 II, plus it has G Darius, RayCrisis, etc. The Playstation is no slouch, but I do think Saturn is quite a bit better overall.


5)The sound. Awkward or not, hard to program or not, programmers fault or not; the fact is that many, many titles on the Saturn sound bad in terms of samples playback and sfx quality. It's just a shame.

What on Earth are you talking about?


6)3D games. Do I really need to say something? I don't think so.

The Saturn has plenty of quality 3D games IMO given the time frame.

Kamahl
01-13-2012, 02:07 PM
The Saturn has plenty of quality 3D games IMO given the time frame.
^

sheath
01-13-2012, 02:08 PM
You're too late now, I got into the thread before the obligatory Ridge Racer hate started.

EDIT: Damn it! you already beat me to it on the last page! :( :fit:

Hahah, well, here is my Ridge Racer tribute (http://www.gamespot.com/rage-racer/platform/ps/?tag=result;title;2).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30LNK0K2_m8

"Rage Racer is an outstanding sequel."

Black_Tiger
01-13-2012, 02:09 PM
The two versions are comparable.

I've played both, and personally I struggle to see any difference between them, the PS1 version had slightly better texturing and transparencies, and an added boss rush mode, whilst the Saturn had a more complex background on level 3

I agree, but why is it that when a game is generally thought to be better on PSX (like Tomb Raider) than Saturn, the PSX version is heralded as godly and the Saturn version is trashed. No matter how similar in overall quality they are. But whenever a Saturn game is generally considered better, the difference in overall quality is downplayed?

StarMist
01-13-2012, 02:19 PM
I agree, but why is it that when a game is generally thought to be better on PSX (like Tomb Raider) than Saturn, the PSX version is heralded as godly and the Saturn version is trashed. No matter how similar in overall quality they are. But whenever a Saturn game is generally considered better, the difference in overall quality is downplayed?
The PS version usually had come out first so everybody's been impressed by its intrisnic qualities and whatever the Saturn adds is just frills. Also 1 exception to your statement: Soukyugurentai. Despite the addition of a fourth ship it is wholly written off--on no solid grounds, the most I've seen is that the colour is poorer, when frankly the Saturn game has all kinds of bloody slowdown. Strikers II would be an exm of a very glitchy game on the Saturn, In the Hunt (which is lame on either console) more mildly.

Kamahl
01-13-2012, 02:22 PM
The PS version usually had come out first so everybody's been impressed by its intrisnic qualities and whatever the Saturn adds is just frills.
^

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 02:42 PM
IMO it's fair to talk about any game of PS1 or Saturn. The Dreamcast you should compare with the PS2.

Well, that thing about ram is very basic and almost everyone in this board for more than 1 moth knows about that.
There's no need to mention that and I already gave some examples that broke your rule of "always better" or "always with more animation frames" or "always faster to load" in the Saturn. Give me an example of a 2D fighting game on the Saturn that, without the use of the cartridge RAM, loads faster than Dominated Mind.
What you call "bad coding" can be, in many situations, a harder system to program for. Heck, evenpeople from the SoJ said that the hardware was a pain in the butt and that they should have went with just one and more powerful processor. The sound system architecture is a mess...


I'll look, but, again, I can remember of dozens of games with better FMV playback on the PS1 and nothing about low framerate.

The sad thing about Policenauts is that the PS1 version has a translation patch and the Saturn's doesn't.

I didn't say the playback in general was better, I said there was a trade off. PS1 you typically got clean FMVs with not a lot of compression artifacts, but at the same time the frame rate was low. Or if the Framerate went up, you got a lot of compression artifacts. I remember FF8 when it would switch to an FMV for a background you could suddenly see artifacts and macroblocking that wasn't there a second ago.

As for Policenauts, the fact that the translation patch hasn't been ported over doesn't negate the fact that the FMVs have a higher framerate on the Saturn.

As for Dominated Minds loading times, from what I've seen since I don't own the game, it looks like it's on par with Street Fighter Alpha 2 on the Saturn.

Barone
01-13-2012, 03:20 PM
This really makes no sense. The Saturn has better peripheral support than the PSX. Many (though not all) analog-supported games are interoperable between the steering wheel, mission stick, and analog pad. This is not true on the Playstation, where games for the neGcon -- which, as an aside, is kind of a shitty controller in my opinion -- don't support analog on anything but the neGcon, games for the original Dual Analog joystick don't support other analog devices, and games for the Dual Shock controller don't support the earlier controllers.
Peripheral support and peripheral interoperability are two different things; totally different.

The NeGcon is not a shitty controller, the JoGcon is. But you can use cheap 3rd party controllers, like the Mad Catz's Racer, that gave you a regular pad + compatibility with these two protocols.
Anyway, the NeGcon provided an early analog protocol when the Saturn had nothing like that for racing games. Many titles support the NeGcon, 52 according to this list:
http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,876/offset,0/so,1a/
And I think that these ones are not there but they are compatible:
Destruction Derby Raw
Formula One 2001
Red Asphalt
Formula Circus
Hashiriya Ookamitachi No Densetsu
Race Drivin' a Go! Go!
Need for Speed Hot Pursuit
Touge Max G

Which gives 60 titles! So let me FTFY:
"not a lot of games supported the earlier devices".

For the Dual Analog and Dual Shock games you can use an Interact's Barracuda (both model 1 or model 2) and they will give the two analog modes, plus a digital stick mode that the Dual Shock also doesn't have.


I'm pretty sure, in fact, that the Saturn's analog steering wheel and mission stick were more commonly supported than the Playstation's early analog devices.
No, you're pretty wrong.
According to these lists and my personal lists:
PS1 early devices:
NeGcon = around 60 compatible games (can exist an error here and there, IDK). (http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,876/offset,0/so,1a/)
Analog Stick (the big one)/Dual Analog (controller) (same protocol) = 31 titles. (And I have more 5 or 6 in my list) (http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,28/offset,0/p,6/so,1a/)

Saturn:
Racing Wheel = 19. (http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,288/)
Mission Stick = 7 games. (http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,965/)

Those lists can have some error, but the difference is just abysmal.
So, even considering just the early PS1 devices, the Saturn offered much less support for analog devices.

[QUOTE=j_factor;440164]And, since the Saturn's analog pad came out significantly earlier than the Dual Shock, there was more "regular" analog support on the Saturn for a good period of time. MechWarrior 2 is a good example, it supports analog in the Saturn version only. Of course, more total games support analog on the Playstation, after all it lasted much longer and has a larger library.
The Dual Analog pad was released in April 1997 and it was compatible with the Analog Stick games released a year before.
Well, I can give you that "the Saturn had an analog pad earlier than PS1" if you care, but after that the rest is just laughable.

The Saturn 3D Controller had just 24 compatible games according to this list, and the earlier games were released 1996, just like the PS1's Analog Stick ones, so IDK the 3D Controller was THAT important. (http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,289/offset,0/p,23/so,1a/)


I have no idea what you're talking about with the mouse. The Saturn has pretty good mouse support. Worms supports the Saturn mouse but not the Playstation mouse. Even Virtua Cop supports the mouse, which is above and beyond IMO. What Saturn games did you feel were sorely missing mouse support? I honestly can't think of anything.
Yes, you don't have any idea.

PS1 mouse compatible games = 89 games. (http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,159/offset,0/p,6/so,0a/) + these ones:
Sentinel Returns
Global Domination
Aztec - The Curse in the Heart of the City of Gold
Egypt 1156 B.C.: Tomb of the Pharaoh
Broken Sword: The Shadow of the Templars
Darkseed II
Louvre: The Final Curse
Versailles

Saturn mouse support = 19 games. (http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,192/p,23/) + Worms that you said.

Again, the difference is BIG.

To not talk about the total of 827 games with some analog support for the PS1. (http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/sheet/attributeId,138/p,6/)
And all that you have is the 3D Controller???

I think that it's pretty clear which console had better peripheral support, by a far margin.


I love the Playstation, and many of its 2D games. Praising one doesn't have to come at the expense of the other.
I agree.



I'm not going to get into specifics, but I will say that I have found very, very few fighting games worth playing on the Playstation. Most of them are either better on Saturn or better on Dreamcast.
Why not say "better on the Xbox 360"? C'mon!



Saturn has just as much if not more of this, granted the bulk of it is in Japan.
And I was talking about Japanese compilations... Oh, the old "tons of Japanese Saturn unknown jewels" myth.

At least, let me end with this new "compilations myth" right now.
PS1 list. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/search/index.html?platform=6&game=&contrib=0&genre=233&region=0&date=0&rating=0&developer=&publisher=&dist=0&sort=0&link=0&res=0&title=0&adv=1)
Saturn list. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/search/index.html?platform=8&game=&contrib=0&genre=233&region=0&date=0&rating=0&developer=&publisher=&dist=0&sort=0&link=0&res=0&title=0&adv=1)

Japan-only compilations:
PS1 list. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/search/index.html?platform=6&game=&contrib=0&genre=233&region=2&date=0&rating=0&developer=&publisher=&dist=0&sort=0&link=0&res=0&title=0&adv=1)
Saturn list. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/search/index.html?platform=8&game=&contrib=0&genre=233&region=2&date=0&rating=0&developer=&publisher=&dist=0&sort=0&link=0&res=0&title=0&adv=1)
Closer, but not even equal.
IMO just the Sunsoft's and Namco's collections in the PS1 side would end this debate.


This is true, the Playstation is also said to have the superior versions of In the Hunt and Strikers 1945 II, plus it has G Darius, RayCrisis, etc. The Playstation is no slouch, but I do think Saturn is quite a bit better overall.
I agree.



What on Earth are you talking about?
Have you ever heard about a game called "The King Of Fighters '97"?
There are many others, but this one I'm sure that was done on Earth.;)



The Saturn has plenty of quality 3D games IMO given the time frame.
I agree.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 03:33 PM
I think you are confusing Library size with amount of peripheral support. Let's take a look at percentages shall we?

Ok, so according to you about 97 games on the PS1 had mouse support, while 20 had it on the Saturn.

So for PS1 that's 97/2400 total games. That's 4%.
For Saturn that's 20/250. That's 8%

So the the Saturn has mouse support in 2x the percentage of its library in comparison to the PS1.

For analog let's round your PS1 number up to 100 for simplicity sake. For PS1 that's 100/2400, or around 4%.
For Saturn we have 31/250. That's about 12%.

So the Saturn has analog support in 3x the percentage of it's library in comparison to the PS1. Isn't math fun?

Barone
01-13-2012, 04:03 PM
I think you are confusing Library size with amount of peripheral support. Let's take a look at percentages shall we?

Ok, so according to you about 97 games on the PS1 had mouse support, while 20 had it on the Saturn.

So for PS1 that's 97/2400 total games. That's 4%.
For Saturn that's 20/250. That's 8%

So the the Saturn has mouse support in 2x the percentage of its library in comparison to the PS1.

For analog let's round your PS1 number up to 100 for simplicity sake. For PS1 that's 100/2400, or around 4%.
For Saturn we have 31/250. That's about 12%.

So the Saturn has analog support in 3x the percentage of it's library in comparison to the PS1. Isn't math fun?
No, you're confusing everything using your Sega glasses.

Support is what it is, don't fuck with it, don't fake it.
If I'm looking for mouse games, I have much more options with PS1.
If I'm looking for analog compatible games, the same!
An so on... I don't have to buy 1000 or 2000 games, nobody has.

If the Saturn had just one game released and it was a point-and-click adventure using mouse it would be a 100%! So the best mouse support ever according to you! Pretty smart you are, huh?

By the way, you totally "forgot" to consider the genres of the games. To talk about what percentage of point-and-click games had mouse support would be less non-sense.

I can see the fanboysm going stronger when people start saying things that are easily contested by lists, and then go to the percentages... What's next? The number of Sega games that each console received?

The PS1 had much better peripheral support by any sense.
In the non-sense world the results can vary, I admit.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 04:13 PM
I didn't say the system had the best mouse support ever, just that percentage wise more of it's library supports the mouse than the PS1. It's not faking, nor is messing it around. It's simple math. I didn't say you had to by 2000 games on the PS1. I am saying that if you were to stick your hand in a box that had 1 of each PS1 game in it randomly distributed, you'd have a lower chance of getting a game that supported the mouse than if you did the same thing with the Saturn.

Barone
01-13-2012, 04:44 PM
randomly distributed? Are you kidding right? (Might be my Brazilian English or something...)

Who cares about this:
"I am saying that if you were to stick your hand in a box that had 1 of each PS1 game in it randomly distributed, you'd have a lower chance of getting a game that supported the mouse than if you did the same thing with the Saturn. "
I don't know about you, but in my underdeveloped country the people usually pick a game having some idea of what it is.

PS1 has dozens (maybe hundreds) of 3D racing games, fighting games... Much more than Saturn has, fact.
So you would expect to get mouse support in, let me say, Tekken 3 for sake of your non-sense percentage meter?
Your non-sense conditions don't change the fact that I have more peripherals and more good options for them in the PS1 side of things.

If you want to create a new world where it's a bad thing to have 2000-3000+ games in a console's library, it's okay by me but I will not go with you to that place.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 04:47 PM
Did I say I'd want mouse support in Tekken 3? No, I didn't. I simply said if I were to go into a store and buy a random Saturn game, I'd have a higher chance of getting one that supported either Mouse or Analog than I would if did the same with the PS1.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have a huge game library either. You said Saturn has worse peripheral support than the PS1. But when you look at it in relationship to the size of it's library, it's actually better than the PS1.

sheath
01-13-2012, 04:58 PM
Tekken 3 doesn't need mouse support, it needs a phone keypad so you can dial in the moves faster.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 05:10 PM
Tekken 3 doesn't need mouse support, it needs a phone keypad so you can dial in the moves faster.

You must spread some rep around before giving more to sheath.

Barone
01-13-2012, 05:19 PM
ahahahhaha, thanks, sheath.



"I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have a huge game library either. You said Saturn has worse peripheral support than the PS1. But when you look at it in relationship to the size of it's library, it's actually better than the PS1."

*Agostinho goes to buy PC-like mouse-based games for Saturn or PS1. He looks for the options and find many interesting ones for the PS1 and just a few for the Saturn.
He thinks about getting Bedlam, Broken Sword I & II and, surprisingly, Final Doom for the PS1. But, first, he picks a of piece paper and calculates the percentage of 3 games in 2400.
Scratches the head... Sad with the result, Agostinho picks Virtua Cop for the Saturn, a game better played with a light gun... He now leaves the place happy with his last haul!*

*Agostinho arrives at home and thinks: Oh, darn! If all those PS1 3D Racers had mouse support I could have bought my beloved old PC-like games...*

TheSonicRetard
01-13-2012, 05:30 PM
Tekken 3 doesn't need mouse support, it needs a phone keypad so you can dial in the moves faster.

lmao repped

TheSonicRetard
01-13-2012, 05:32 PM
Anyway, the NeGcon provided an early analog protocol when the Saturn had nothing like that for racing games.

The saturn launched with an analog racing wheel.

Barone
01-13-2012, 05:43 PM
Ouch!:
Anyway, the NeGcon provided an early analog protocol when the Saturn had nothing like that for racing games.

TheSonicRetard
01-13-2012, 05:45 PM
To be fair, though, it was wildly undersupported. One of the biggest missed opportunities is that Sonic R doesn't support it, despite supporting the 3D pad. It might sound weird, but Sonic R with the racing wheel would have been, by far, the best control option for that game.

Da_Shocker
01-13-2012, 05:49 PM
To be fair, though, it was wildly undersupported. One of the biggest missed opportunities is that Sonic R doesn't support it, despite supporting the 3D pad. It might sound weird, but Sonic R with the racing wheel would have been, by far, the best control option for that game.

Uhm yeah if the game was strictly a racing affair. But this was a hybrid racing/adventure game. Only the Emerald stage was a pure racing one.

TheSonicRetard
01-13-2012, 06:09 PM
Uhm yeah if the game was strictly a racing affair. But this was a hybrid racing/adventure game. Only the Emerald stage was a pure racing one.

Yes, that is true, but the controls are set up for a strictly racing afair. You're not meant to press left or right to turn, you're meant to slowly arc the 3D stick around, as though it were a racing wheel, to turn, and to hold up to accelerate. It never feels natural with any pad or the 3D controller, but it makes perfect sense for the racing wheel, as you could hold the shift triggers to accelerate and make slight movements by tilting the wheel.

EDIT: And, to prove I'm not just blowing smoke, the PC version IS compatible with racing wheels, and it's by far a better option. However, IMO, the saturn version is superior to the PC version. It sucks because, had the saturn version supported the racing wheel, it would have been better all around.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-13-2012, 06:12 PM
ahahahhaha, thanks, sheath.



"I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have a huge game library either. You said Saturn has worse peripheral support than the PS1. But when you look at it in relationship to the size of it's library, it's actually better than the PS1."

*Agostinho goes to buy PC-like mouse-based games for Saturn or PS1. He looks for the options and find many interesting ones for the PS1 and just a few for the Saturn.
He thinks about getting Bedlam, Broken Sword I & II and, surprisingly, Final Doom for the PS1. But, first, he picks a of piece paper and calculates the percentage of 3 games in 2400.
Scratches the head... Sad with the result, Agostinho picks Virtua Cop for the Saturn, a game better played with a light gun... He now leaves the place happy with his last haul!*

*Agostinho arrives at home and thinks: Oh, darn! If all those PS1 3D Racers had mouse support I could have bought my beloved old PC-like games...*

Again, I didn't say you have to calculate it, I am simply saying that it's a bit silly to say the Saturn's peripherals aren't supported enough when a higher percentage of it's library supports them versus the PS1. Of course the PS1 has more titles that support peripherals in general, because it has more titles in general. When you own a Saturn and a bunch of games you don't feel that your peripherals are anymore underutilized than if you had a PS1 and a bunch of games. It's not like all of the Saturn's peripherals are like Steel Batallion. If anything I'd say Saturn's peripherals are typically more versatile. Just because a game says it doesn't support the 3D pad doesn't mean it wont work and you can't use it. Many games work just fine with it.

Barone
01-13-2012, 07:03 PM
TU18, you went to the next level, didn't you?

Silly is everything you said in the last 4 or 5 posts... To fight against facts is just pure crazy. You can smash those numbers as you want, but the Saturn peripheral support just sucks! It's not like 20 against 30. It's 20 against 90! And those 20 aren't that good to begin with...
To have more games is better than have less, to have 20 options is way worse than have 90; accept this. You can talk about quality in other genres, but not in this case...

The PS1 just crushed Saturn in terms of peripheral support:
-Much more mouse compatible games.
-Much³ more analog controller compatible games.
-More light gun compatible games.
-Much more multi-tap compatible games.
-Tons more of 3rd party devices.
-A cute LCD screen to use with a very small model.
-The PocketStation (ahahah!).
...

By the way, what's the title of this thread?

NeoZeedeater
01-13-2012, 08:14 PM
I don't understand the comments about the Saturn not feeling like a Sega system. Arcade ports like the Virtua series, Daytona, Virtual On, etc.. totally have a signature Sega vibe. All Sega consoles had a strong arcade focus except maybe the Genesis after its first year. Colourful unique games like NiGHTS and Burning Rangers had long been a staple of the company as were visually striking rail shooters like Panzer Dragoon. Plus, there were plenty of re-releases of Sega classics including Genesis and SG-1000 games. It was the first time OutRun and Fantasy Zone were near arcade perfect at home.

Genesis Knight
01-13-2012, 08:20 PM
I agree with you NeoZeedeater. Of the Sega consoles, the Dreamcast is the one that risks not having the Sega 'feel', not the Saturn.

kool kitty89
01-13-2012, 08:45 PM
As for video quality, there is one thing I've always noticed with comparisons. While yes PS1 FMVs tend to have less compression artifacts, they also usually run at a lower frame rate (15fps). Saturn FMVs on other hand sometimes do have more compression artifacts, they also run at a higher frame rate (usually around 24-30fps depending on what it is). Some good examples to compare with this are the Lunar games (even the non MPEG version of SSSC shows this), Policenauts, Grandia, and many others.
The main difference is software vs hardware video decoding. PSX uses MJPEG or H.261 in hardware as standard, so the only variables are on the encoding end (selecting the bitrate -up to 2x CD- framerate, resolution, and which format to use)

MJPEG will be superior for lower framerate stuff, but H.261's motion compensation should make it more attractive for higher framerates (generally speaking -though it's really a matter of how well the video caters to interframing and how well the encoder takes advantage of that -high framerates will more likely have redundancy catering to that, but low frameates can still favor interframe compression too).

Motion compensation is also far more encoder dependent on quality, so good use of H.261 would be far less simple than good use of MJPEG.

On the Saturn's end though, you have software decoding . . . and relatively limited resources to achieve MPEG/H.261 in software (though apparently some games did so -perhaps with the combined resource of the SH2s and SCU DSP). The most common codecs were Cinepak and Truemotion iirc, both of which could be used with or without interframes (depending on encoding), and both would still be quality limited by the encoding software on top of the actual limitations of the formats. (Truemotion would come much closer to PSX quality video in general though)







I think the Saturn is one of the better looking consoles. It looks better than the Playstation, with its ugly grey shell.
I agree 100%, at least for the black Saturn (don't care for the Silver or -especially- White version, though I suppose they still look better than the PSX ;)). Nice lines and nice black satin finish. (not matte, but also not the horrible piano black high gloss dust/finger-print magnets that have become more popular recently ;))

It's that classic Sega black that graced all their products (outside of Japan) prior to that . . . and also lacking the silly bright red accents of later European MD stuff.

I'm a fan of dark/black consoles in general though . . . Atari Inc/Corp stuff (aside from the Lynx), N64, black GC, Sega Sports DC, PS2, Xbox, etc. (the PS2 and Xbox might not be the sleekest consoles, but they'd look a lot worse in gray/beige ;)) -the translucent xboxes look OK though)

Sure, even the satin/matte finished black consoles show dust more easily than white/gray/beige consoles, but that doesn't stop them from being awesome. ;)



This is what the Saturn was originally suppose to look like but why oh why did SoJ change this wonderful silver console to the plain gray Saturn that we got?
As above, black/smoke > silver > white. Black is and will always be bad-ass for electronics. (as long as its not piano black ;))






I can't see this any other way, the original Playstation and PS2 are two of the most ugly and shoddily manufactured game consoles ever. Both consoles should be much better known for Disk Read Errors than the Xbox 360. The original Playstation barely has a bios screen and the drive door, open and power buttons, just scream "cheap". This is why I just could not believe how many people here didn't see the bias in Edge's articles about the console, how can everything "be just so right" when the console looks and feels like a cheap toy?
I like the look of the PS2 . . . it's not the best looking system, but it's kind of cool. (more so upright, though it's more practical on its side -especially as it's flat/broad shape makes it practical to stack or place on narrow shelves -unlike the rounded top of the Xbox -or PS3- and top loading nature of other consoles)







Which? Tomb Raider, a franchise I will not play, I've only heard of having graphical errors on Saturn. Pandemonium/Magical Hoppers sadly is better on PS, and of course Saturn didn't get the sequel. By the bye I don't know how much digging here you've done but 17days had the suggestion somebody ought to sprite swap Sonic into Pandemonium to create a true Sonic Saturn. It'd be pretty amusing (with the sfx and controller lag corrected) but I think Nights would be by far the more apt sprite. Wipeout's controls should not have been altered. Gex and Johnny Bazookatone (which is a good game if one can tune out the music) lack a few codes the originals and PS versions had. Is Loaded screwed up? Toshinden would be a push to designate "key" (so would Loaded I'm aware).
PS1 Tomb Raider has graphical glitches too, arguably more so than the Saturn, and obviously most PS1 games have graphical limitations. (aside from perspective warping on textures, there's the polygon seaming issue -a programming mistake due to rounding incorrectly with the GTE coordinates- though the Saturn version has the lighting/contrast issues among other things -that's the most consistent/obvious)






No, you're confusing everything using your Sega glasses.

Support is what it is, don't fuck with it, don't fake it.
If I'm looking for mouse games, I have much more options with PS1.
If I'm looking for analog compatible games, the same!
An so on... I don't have to buy 1000 or 2000 games, nobody has.

If the Saturn had just one game released and it was a point-and-click adventure using mouse it would be a 100%! So the best mouse support ever according to you! Pretty smart you are, huh?
No, that's not a good argument . . . you were arguing peripheral support, not total amount of software available.


By the way, you totally "forgot" to consider the genres of the games. To talk about what percentage of point-and-click games had mouse support would be less non-sense.
This is a valid point, you can't just go blindly by percentage either, but percentage of games that merited mouse control (ie most PC ports, and most FPSs and point-and-click style adventure games).

However, you'd also have to take release dates into account. (if late-gen PSX games had better peripheral support than early ones, that's not a fair comparison -since the Saturn was dead by that point)

So, for a real/valid comparison, you'd need to do an year by year comparison of the number of games meriting mouse/light gun/analog (wheel, sick, etc) support and how many of those games actually got that support.


No one is arguing whether the PSX had a longer life or far more plentiful software overall (mainly due to that longer life), but that's a separate issue from your complaint about peripheral support.

segaddict
01-13-2012, 08:50 PM
I agree with you NeoZeedeater. Of the Sega consoles, the Dreamcast is the one that risks not having the Sega 'feel', not the Saturn.

Agreed. For me, it's mostly because of the different controller and white color. Every other Sega console is black and most the controllers are somewhat similar. The DC is like the adopted albino kid. Don't get me wrong though, I still love the DC. :p

gamevet
01-13-2012, 09:18 PM
Agreed. For me, it's mostly because of the different controller and white color. Every other Sega console is black and most the controllers are somewhat similar. The DC is like the adopted albino kid. Don't get me wrong though, I still love the DC. :p

I have a sports black Dreamcast. :p


@gamevet
You're always wrong and so I will not waste my time with you.
I like to discuss with people that actually know something or have good opinions to share or that, at least, do some search and read here and there.
You are not one of those, for sure, so I'm sorry but I'll leave your rough thoughts for someone else.
Do not waste your time quoting my posts 'cause I will never quote yours.

Dude, you could have just ignored my post and carried on, but instead you chose to insult me. If I was so wrong with my post about peripherals, then why hasn't anyone agreed with what you're saying here?

If you want to nitpick about a stupid mouse, the Saturn's mouse did the most important thing it was supposed to do: offer a device for using with the Netlink internet browser. I'd used my mouse for a solid 2 years while browsing the internet using a Saturn and then moved on to the Dreamcast and its internet browser. The only thing I will agree with you about the mouse is that some games should have supported it on the Saturn; I did find it rather strange that Warcraft II did not support it on the console. But, I find rather it ignorant to think the Saturn sucks because it doesn't offer enough games to support a peripheral like the mouse.

Barone
01-13-2012, 09:19 PM
No, that's not a good argument . . . you were arguing peripheral support, not total amount of software available.
You can't ignore the amount of games either...
When you talk about the 32X or the Sega CD you usually say that they lacked the support from SoJ...
What does the support thing mean? Games that use them, doesn't it?


This is a valid point, you can't just go blindly by percentage either, but percentage of games that merited mouse control (ie most PC ports, and most FPSs and point-and-click style adventure games).

However, you'd also have to take release dates into account. (if late-gen PSX games had better peripheral support than early ones, that's not a fair comparison -since the Saturn was dead by that point)

So, for a real/valid comparison, you'd need to do an year by year comparison of the number of games meriting mouse/light gun/analog (wheel, sick, etc) support and how many of those games actually got that support.
You can do it if you want, but I just don't have the will to do it.
I just look at lists and compare the games, the PS1 ones are those which I would like to play most. And they are there in a much bigger amount than in the Saturn's list.
I look at the devices and look for the games that I can use with them. PS1 has more games.
I also look at the games that should use mouse, and most of the time the PS1 offers the support.
I don't have the list in my mind and the release dates, but most of the PS1 games are not post-Saturn's death. In fact, the titles that I like to play with mouse are the earlier ones.

You can do what you suggested and see that I'm totally wrong, but my guess is that it's like I said: PS1 got more support, from the very beginning, comparing the genres and everything.


No one is arguing whether the PSX had a longer life or far more plentiful software overall (mainly due to that longer life), but that's a separate issue from your complaint about peripheral support.
Neither I am...

I just listed why I dislike the Saturn, as the OP said and people went crazy about that.

Many of the arguments are valid in theory, but from a gamer's point of view everything is way more simple than that...
But every time I say things against the Saturn people start to smash numbers, create theories and everything else... I'm just as crazy as the people who bought a PS1 instead of a Saturn; just that crazy.

@gamechild
The majority of Sega-16 agrees with you.
The majority of the world agrees with me.
I just feel comfortable about it.

gamevet
01-13-2012, 09:38 PM
I don't understand the comments about the Saturn not feeling like a Sega system. Arcade ports like the Virtua series, Daytona, Virtual On, etc.. totally have a signature Sega vibe. All Sega consoles had a strong arcade focus except maybe the Genesis after its first year. Colourful unique games like NiGHTS and Burning Rangers had long been a staple of the company as were visually striking rail shooters like Panzer Dragoon. Plus, there were plenty of re-releases of Sega classics including Genesis and SG-1000 games. It was the first time OutRun and Fantasy Zone were near arcade perfect at home.

Yeah, the Saturn was like a Sega love letter to its arcade fans. Sega poured all of its resources behind porting their arcade games and it appears that only Japan seemed to get it. The Saturn became the home arcade console, kicking aside the Neo-Geo along the way.

Thenewguy
01-13-2012, 10:02 PM
Jeez, this thread is starting to make me feel physically ill :yuck:

StarMist
01-13-2012, 10:36 PM
@ Trekkies = The Saturn has more than 250 games. If you're only counting US most of its mouse support will go out the window, as can be judged from that incomplete list agostinho linked.

@ agostinho = 'nonsense' does not take a hyphen.
That Saturn mouse list is short, probably by quite a bit in the way most Saturn sources are; try Satakore. It doesn't even have Yuno whose special package included a transparent mouse. I doubt of all KID's screen to screen games only 2 supported the mouse.
Gamefaqs lists tend to incompletion due to some flaw in their code or how they're compiled: many times I've found NES/Famicom titles missing from a list that they not only had release and cover information but a full review for. Just something to be aware of.
Also consider the importance relative to some of these analogues. Mouse = slightly faster speed for games that incorporate little to no action or timers. 3D Controller = one of the absolute best ever and used for one of the best games ever (Nights--plus Christmas Nights) along with improving PD Zwei.
Lightgun = Paramount cz playing lightgunners w/ a controller or mouse sucks. Here the PS obviously wins for game majority and Elemental Gearbolt.
Multitap = Meh. Basically comes down to whether one prefers a cartload of sports titles or Saturn Bomberman.
System Link = for Wipeout. Pretty sweet...but a tad less realistic than the NetLink.
Negcon = I remember when this thing came out, it was aimed at semiserious racers for whom a wheel was too expensive or silly looking, or as a cheap guest controller. It's by no means a deal breaker to me; rather I'd say the stock PS controller has the greater advantage over the Saturn for racing with two buttons moved from the face to the shoulders.
Maestro stick = (PS) just, you know, it's out there.

kool kitty89
01-13-2012, 10:56 PM
You can't ignore the amount of games either...
When you talk about the 32X or the Sega CD you usually say that they lacked the support from SoJ...
What does the support thing mean? Games that use them, doesn't it?
Yes, but I don't lump them in as part of the same argument. (just like I argue that Sega CD issue in the context of Sega releasing the CD at all -vs the separate argument that Sega shouldn't have released it at all . . . and the same for the 32x -except SoJ DID support 32x software surprisingly well, oddly enough)


You can do it if you want, but I just don't have the will to do it.
I just look at lists and compare the games, the PS1 ones are those which I would like to play most. And they are there in a much bigger amount than in the Saturn's list.
I look at the devices and look for the games that I can use with them. PS1 has more games.
I also look at the games that should use mouse, and most of the time the PS1 offers the support.
I don't have the list in my mind and the release dates, but most of the PS1 games are not post-Saturn's death. In fact, the titles that I like to play with mouse are the earlier ones.
I don't care enough to go through an do it . . . but I also won't make a definitive claim one way or the other without knowing those sorts of details.



Neither I am...

I just listed why I dislike the Saturn, as the OP said and people went crazy about that.
Well, on those grounds, I could list a lot of dislikes for almost any system compared to things it lacks against a contemporary platform that I prefer. That doesn't mean I dislike the system on the whole, but it certainly means I dislike certain aspects of it . . . and may like it quite a lot less than some other platforms. (aside from local multiplayer, I'd take PC gaming of the mid/late 90s over any other platform ;) -even then, aside from limited support for split-screen play, there's the issue of greater initial investment -though further upgrades are far less costly, and the issue of having to know what you're doing -or have help from someone who does- when building/upgrading a system and installing/configuring software -more so with DOS stuff- -for my family, that was all good though, since my dad had the know-how to do that and was very smart/shrewd about getting good deals on hardware too -buying from local wholesale dealers, buying used, buying on sale, and generally buying the most cost effective stuff -and in the mid 90s, that usually meant Cyrix CPUs or sometimes AMD, but we also ended up with a good chunk of Intel stuff due to good deals on overstock/used parts)
Living in Silicon Valey probably didn't hurt either.

But that price issue was only an issue back then anyway . . . well, if you limit yourself to buying legitimate copies, that's an issue today too. (PC stuff is mostly cheap though, even for some of the more sought after games -a few odd cases of expensive stuff too, albeit often with cheaper options too, like some versions/packs/collections for Wing Commander IV being really expensive, but the original DOS version not being so much, at least if you don't want a mint/CIB copy -I lucked out at Good Will in any case for that one ;))
There's also the issue of building a compatible retro PC or dealing with dual-booting, virtual PC or DOSbox (for games without patches/support for newer OSs) . . . and dual booting would be limited to older hardware anyway (for full compatibility with Win9X and DOS).

For me, that's also not a big issue as we saved a fair amount of our old hardware, so it's not that much work to build a compatible machine for that. (something I'm planning on doing soon)
Hell, it's not even that hard to get old hardware pretty cheaply (online or at places like Weird Stuff Warehouse that still carries pretty old hardware), if not free (from craigslist or such).

Barone
01-13-2012, 11:08 PM
@StarMist
Surely the MobyGames lists are lacking, but give me a link to better ones 'cause I don't have any. Satakore has some very specific lists but I didn't find anything about the mouse compatible games.
Gamefaqs lists like that are much less error-prone than the MobyGames ones... They can miss a game or two but nothing that will change the world.


The Maestro stick... ahahha, I've seen that several times on eBay but I just don't want it. It's useless. Those Hori Wai-Wai/Woogie-Woogie/Boogie-Boogie/whatever controllers also don't have any appeal IMO.

Thanks for the English tip.;)


Yes, but I don't lump them in as part of the same argument. (just like I argue that Sega CD issue in the context of Sega releasing the CD at all -vs the separate argument that Sega shouldn't have released it at all . . . and the same for the 32x -except SoJ DID support 32x software surprisingly well, oddly enough)
OK.


I don't care enough to go through an do it . . . but I also won't make a definitive claim one way or the other without knowing those sorts of details.
I can tell you that I looked at several Saturn covers, from all regions, searching for mouse support and most of them didn't have it. For the same games (supposed to use the mouse), the PS1 had mouse support most of the time.

And it's not a mouse question, it's just that PS1 received much more PC ports than Saturn; even considering only the years when both systems were kicking. We can talk for days about the reasons, but I said previously that I like those PC-specific genres like point-and-click games or RTS games.
PS1 has several good titles in those genres, Saturn is lacking in comparison; in quality and numbers.


Well, on those grounds, I could list a lot of dislikes for almost any system compared to things it lacks against a contemporary platform that I prefer. That doesn't mean I dislike the system on the whole, but it certainly means I dislike certain aspects of it . . . and may like it quite a lot less than some other platforms. (aside from local multiplayer, I'd take PC gaming of the mid/late 90s over any other platform ;) -even then, aside from limited support for split-screen play, there's the issue of greater initial investment -though further upgrades are far less costly, and the issue of having to know what you're doing -or have help from someone who does- when building/upgrading a system and installing/configuring software -more so with DOS stuff- -for my family, that was all good though, since my dad had the know-how to do that and was very smart/shrewd about getting good deals on hardware too -buying from local wholesale dealers, buying used, buying on sale, and generally buying the most cost effective stuff -and in the mid 90s, that usually meant Cyrix CPUs or sometimes AMD, but we also ended up with a good chunk of Intel stuff due to good deals on overstock/used parts)
Living in Silicon Valey probably didn't hurt either.
That's a tempting idea. That was the golden era of modern PC games IMO.

Like I said, I don't like the Saturn, it's more about that than the system itself. I can understand the love for it and the hate for the PS1, but those 6 points that are mentioned in my first post always make me keep distance of Saturn. In the top of that, the PS1 library has much more 32-bit titles that appeal to my 16-bit taste than the Saturn's.


But that price issue was only an issue back then anyway . . . well, if you limit yourself to buying legitimate copies, that's an issue today too. (PC stuff is mostly cheap though, even for some of the more sought after games -a few odd cases of expensive stuff too, albeit often with cheaper options too, like some versions/packs/collections for Wing Commander IV being really expensive, but the original DOS version not being so much, at least if you don't want a mint/CIB copy -I lucked out at Good Will in any case for that one ;))
There's also the issue of building a compatible retro PC or dealing with dual-booting, virtual PC or DOSbox (for games without patches/support for newer OSs) . . . and dual booting would be limited to older hardware anyway (for full compatibility with Win9X and DOS).

For me, that's also not a big issue as we saved a fair amount of our old hardware, so it's not that much work to build a compatible machine for that. (something I'm planning on doing soon)
Hell, it's not even that hard to get old hardware pretty cheaply (online or at places like Weird Stuff Warehouse that still carries pretty old hardware), if not free (from craigslist or such).
I have the feeling that if I build an old PC to play those awesome games my life in all other aspects will go down hill, hahaha!
Playing using emulators is a pain in the butt (some games have some special needs and some less known still have problems) and it's not as fun as it was.

NeoZeedeater
01-13-2012, 11:56 PM
I find DOSBox + Dfend more user friendly than using an old PC for games. DOS was the most annoying format for getting games to run.

Da_Shocker
01-13-2012, 11:58 PM
Im still trying to run MK2 on dos box and it still has been a no go.

Zz Badnusty
01-14-2012, 12:08 AM
I don't like the Saturn.

IMO:
1)It's design is clumsy and ugly; in all versions but a bit less in the Japanese ones.

2)The peripheral support is a mess.

OOOOhhh! A rare chance for me to disagree with agostinhobaroners :D
This'll take some time. I'll be back in a couple days... ;)

Barone
01-14-2012, 12:16 AM
Yes, indeed. We never disagreed until now... Sorry.

Couple days? hahahah, I'll probably get creamed by the other members in a few hours... :p

StarMist
01-14-2012, 12:28 AM
@StarMist
Surely the MobyGames lists are lacking, but give me a link to better ones 'cause I don't have any. Satakore has some very specific lists but I didn't find anything about the mouse compatible games.
Gamefaqs lists like that are much less error-prone than the MobyGames ones... They can miss a game or two but nothing that will change the world.
I haven't a better. My point was that despite its popularity with collectors the Saturn is fairly marginalised so the information out there will only be so deep.
eg that Moby list lacked Worms (a very obvious game to check into), Yuno whose special package I mentioned earlier is very well known amongst collectors (fetching over $80), and some obvious sequels to titles already on the list such as Can Can Bunny Premiere 2, Pia Carrot 2, and Sakura Taisen 2 (an idiotic omission as its Sega's own game and peripheral in question, and yes this too had a special pack which came with the shuttle mouse).
On the other hand not all these uses are terribly important. Hey, I can play Eve Zero on Playstation with analogue support...neato. And on Saturn Enemy Zero supports the multi (3D) controller.....neato again. Lucienne's Quest on Saturn also supports the multi controller, as I'm wont to point out, which is just all kinds of queer.


The Maestro stick... ahahha, I've seen that several times on eBay but I just don't want it. It's useless. Those Hori Wai-Wai/Woogie-Woogie/Boogie-Boogie/whatever controllers also don't have any appeal IMO.Well, it has its own specific 'game' (instructional for music students, obviously). Sorry it can't be used for Jurassic Park Warpath.

edit = btw, just because the mouse/3D/whatever support isn't mentioned on the back doesn't mean it won't be there.

Barone
01-14-2012, 01:04 AM
"edit = btw, just because the mouse/3D/whatever support isn't mentioned on the back doesn't mean it won't be there."
Well, I know that but someone else, somebody who loves the system will have to do it. I did for the Sega CD (tested those lame American LaserDisc games to discover that they all support the mouse; Starblade does not mention the support in the US version...) and for the Mega Drive (with the Japanese Marble Madness). And I'm doing it for the PS1...
But a initial number of 20 against a initial number of 90 says something. It would be a very good surprise if the Saturn list went longer than 40 games. The PS1 also has more games missing than I have listed, but I could not confirm them until now...

It's a shame that those lists are so error-prone even to this day.

gamevet
01-14-2012, 01:28 AM
I haven't a better. My point was that despite its popularity with collectors the Saturn is fairly marginalised so the information out there will only be so deep.
eg that Moby list lacked Worms (a very obvious game to check into), Yuno whose special package I mentioned earlier is very well known amongst collectors (fetching over $80), and some obvious sequels to titles already on the list such as Can Can Bunny Premiere 2, Pia Carrot 2, and Sakura Taisen 2 (an idiotic omission as its Sega's own game and peripheral in question, and yes this too had a special pack which came with the shuttle mouse).
On the other hand not all these uses are terribly important. Hey, I can play Eve Zero on Playstation with analogue support...neato. And on Saturn Enemy Zero supports the multi (3D) controller.....neato again. Lucienne's Quest on Saturn also supports the multi controller, as I'm wont to point out, which is just all kinds of queer.

Well, it has its own specific 'game' (instructional for music students, obviously). Sorry it can't be used for Jurassic Park Warpath.

edit = btw, just because the mouse/3D/whatever support isn't mentioned on the back doesn't mean it won't be there.

This site has a full list of Saturn games that support the mouse. It's over 90 titles, but most of these are supported in Japan. ;)

http://www.sega-saturn.net/mouse.htm

TrekkiesUnite118
01-14-2012, 01:36 AM
Is it really that hard to get the point I was making? The point is that even if the Saturn had less total games that supported peripherals it doesn't come off that its support is a mess or that no games use the peripherals. This is because proportionately a decent chunk of the library does use the peripherals making them feel worth owning, even if the grand total of games is less than on system with a much larger library.

Baloo
01-14-2012, 10:12 AM
The Sega Saturn was God's gift to humanity. This is inarguable fact!

:ok:

Genesis Knight
01-14-2012, 10:25 AM
I love how there's four pages of arguing about Saturn vs. PSX based on peripheral support. Fricking mouse games. That's got to be a first for me in my time on the internet. For my part, I just boxed up the PSX, PS2, and Wii because I hadn't touched them in months. My black Sega Sports Dreamcast is arriving today, so I'll have the consoles I care about wired up and in black...Xbox, 360, Saturn, Gen/32x/CD, and Dreamcast.

makinagenesis
01-14-2012, 10:30 AM
i so want to get my saturn modded

Da_Shocker
01-14-2012, 01:03 PM
I love how there's four pages of arguing about Saturn vs. PSX based on peripheral support. Fricking mouse games. That's got to be a first for me in my time on the internet. For my part, I just boxed up the PSX, PS2, and Wii because I hadn't touched them in months. My black Sega Sports Dreamcast is arriving today, so I'll have the consoles I care about wired up and in black...Xbox, 360, Saturn, Gen/32x/CD, and Dreamcast.

Yes LOL mouse support is why the PSx won and the Saturn failed.

Barone
01-14-2012, 01:58 PM
@gamevet
lol. I had to rep you after that.
I will have to rep you 3x: 1-For my ignorant rant against you, 2-For the Saturn info, 3-For the PS1 info, 'cause all those Japanese games that are cross platform are also compatible with the PS1 mouse and they were not in the MobyGames list as well.

Many games on that list also complements the PS1 list (you can check the links with images):
3D Lemmings (already listed)
Ai Iijima: Good Island Cafe (Saturn exclusive)
Arthur to Astaroth no Nazo-Makai-Mura: Incredible Toons (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573263-arthur-to-astaroth-no-nazo-makai-mura-incredible/images/box-11843)
Atlantis: The Lost Tales (already listed)
Break Thru! (The PS1 version is very rare and undumped AFAIK. Never found it on eBay to buy...) (unchecked)
Can Can Bunny Extra (Saturn Exclusive)
Can Can Bunny Premiere (Saturn Exclusive)
Can Can Bunny Premiere 2 (Saturn Exclusive)
Cat the Ripper (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/572728-cat-the-ripper-jyusanninme-no-tanteishi/images/box-11276)
Chaos Control (already listed)
Crypt Killer (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197013-crypt-killer/images/box-10211)
Cyberia (already listed)
Daisuki * (Saturn Exclusive)
Dark Seed (already listed)
Devil Summoner: Shin Megami Tensei: A compendium of Devils (Saturn Exclusive)
Dezaemon 2 (Saturn Exclusive)
Digital Monster: Version S Digimon Tamers (Saturn Exclusive)
Discworld (already listed)
Discworld 2 (already listed)
Doukoku Soshite... (Saturn Exclusive)
Doukyusei if (Saturn Exclusive)
Doukyusei 2 (already listed)
Eiseimeijin (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/572861-eisei-meijin/images/box-11863)
Eiseimeijin II (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/572862-eisei-meijin-ii/images/box-11864) (Eiseimeijin III (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/575097-eisei-meijin-iii/images/box-13597) for PS1 is also compatible)
E'tude Prologue (Saturn Exclusive)
Farland Story: Yottsu no Fuuin (IDK if it's exactly the same game) (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/572885-farland-story-yottsu-no-fuuin/images/box-12872)
Gakkou no Kaidan (Saturn Exclusive)
Game no Tatsujin (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/572936-game-no-tatsujin/images/box-13090)
Game no Tatsujin 2 (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/572926-game-no-tatsujin-2/images/box-13088)
Game no Tatsujin: The Shanghai (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/572937-game-no-tatsujin-the-shanghai/images/box-13092)
Girls in Motion Puzzle Vol. 1: Hiyake no Omoide (Saturn Exclusive)
Girls in Motion Puzzle Vol. 2: Body Special 264 (Saturn Exclusive)
GO III Professional (Saturn Exclusive)
Godzilla Rettoushinkan (Saturn Exclusive)
Gotha II: Tenkuu no Kishi (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/572948-gotha-ii-tenkuu-no-kishi/images/box-12187)
Jinzou Ningen Hakaider: Last Judgement (Saturn Exclusive)
Horror Tour (Saturn Exclusive)
Iron Storm (Saturn Exclusive)
Oracle no Houseki: Jewels of the Oracle (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573321-oracle-no-houseki-jewels-of-the-oracle/images/box-13110)
Kiss Yori... (Saturn Exclusive)
Kouryuu Sangoku Engi (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573121-kouryuu-sangoku-engi/images/box-12602)
Lemmings 3D (already listed)
Logic: Puzzle Rainbow Town (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573160-logic-puzzle-rainbow-town/images/box-12380)
LuLu (There is a PS1 version but I couldn't find the information, no cover images, no downloads, no psxdata)
My Best Friends: St. Andrew Jogakuen Hen (Saturn Exclusive)
Myst (already listed)
Ochan no Oekaki Logic (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573309-ochan-no-oekaki-logic/images/box-13105)
Ochigee Designer Tsukutte Pon! (Saturn Exclusive)
Ojousama o Nerae (Saturn Exclusive)
Okudera Yasuhiko no Sekai o Mezase! Soccer Kids - Nyuumon Hen (Saturn Exclusive)
Phantasm (Saturn Exclusive)
Pia Carrot Yokoso!! (Saturn, PC, PC-FX; no PS1)
Pia Carrot Yokoso!! 2 (Saturn, PC, PC-FX; no PS1)
Planet Joker (Saturn Exclusive)
Policenauts (already listed)
Prisoner of Ice (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573386-prisoner-of-ice-jashin-kourin/images/box-12604)
The Psychotron (PC, Saturn)
Quantum Gate I: Akumu no Joshou (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573409-quantum-gate-i-akumu-no-joshou/images/box-12751)
Revolution X (already listed)
Riven: The Sequel to Myst (already listed)(Note: TecToy did a Portuguese translation for the Saturn)
Sakura Taisen games (no donut for the PS1)
Shanghai: Great Moments (http://psxdata.snesorama.us/images/covers/J/S/SLPS-00266/SLPS-00266-B-ALL.html)
Shanghai: Banri no Choujou (a.k.a. The Great Wall) (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573498-shanghai-banri-no-choujou/images/box-12648)
Shi Hashira Suina Pitagraph (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573365-pitagraph/images/box-13234)
Simulation Zoo (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/573534-simulation-zoo/images/box-12697)
...

For those that I could verify and were cross-platform games they had mouse support in both systems.
Strange is that Snatcher is missing in the Saturn list.

I also discovered several other PS1 games using those developers... Thanks a lot.

Looks like that both SDKs provided mouse routines from 1995 and on OR the mouse routines were almost identical.
This is a different pattern than I've found in the 16-bit games: some SNES and Genesis cross-platforms just have mouse support in one version, even with the same developer.

@TU18
The thing is that your original point was different from what you said now. You were trying to show it by comparing those lists with the total amount of the games in library which was and still is nonsense.
KoolKitty89 got it right when he said that we should not trust on those lists and go for a per game/per genre comparison.

I was pretty wrong about the Saturn peripheral support being a mess... Since I believe that the same pattern can be applied for the other devices.
However, I don't understand why Sega went with that "style" of not provide the compatibility and additional info in the back cover. Heck, they use to have it with the Japanese Mega Drive games. Looks like that Sony copied the idea and they thrashed it. But today is very hard to find this compatibility info and it will need to go checking every game to see if a light gun is compatible or not; which is a very sad task to do.

@Baloo
Yes, the PS1 is pure profanity and I like that.

@Genesis Knight
The discussion went crazy about the mouse support since other members easily identified inconsistencies in the lists that I provided and my point of Saturn's peripheral support being a mess were based on that lists... So it went very far...
Although, some of those "Fricking mouse games" had some relevance, like Policenauts, Command & Conquer, Final Doom, Dune 2000... Some of those adventures, like Discworld don't hurt either.

@Da_Shocker
Nobody said that until you, but that was just one of the points inside one of the 6 items that I have listed as factors to dislike the Saturn... And that was in the context of Saturn having much less European support that PS1. IMO games like Constructor are much more enjoyable than hundreds of those Japanese Puzzle games...


Well, at least, some "new" info was retrieved.
And I was bloody wrong about the Saturn's peripheral support.

Da_Shocker
01-14-2012, 02:04 PM
agostinhobaroners, it is called sarcasm my friend. :)

sheath
01-14-2012, 02:05 PM
If I recall the Saturn steering wheel works with all of the racing games, sometimes it just requires configuration in the options menu. Any game that works with the steering wheel can also be made to work with the 3D Game pad, it isn't always perfect but it does work (without analog on the triggers).

This compatibility alone is more significant than Dual Analog/Shock support for PS1 games ever was. I have had a hell of a time getting any early PS1 games to work with the analog sticks at all.

Barone
01-14-2012, 02:24 PM
@Da_Shocker
I knew it. I just answered to you.

I'm Brazilian, but it does not mean that I'm an idiot.
If I answer to a sarcastic phrase, it's why I didn't understand that... If I make a typo, it's why I don't know how to write and I'm writing in Engrish...
Heck, everybody makes mistakes, doesn't?
I can tell you that I have saw several native English speakers making more grammatical mistakes (and some nonsense phrases) in this board than I usually do, so just give me a break.

@sheath
There are some 3rd party PS1 controllers, like the Interact Barracuda, that do the same thing that you said about the 3D Controller: you can use the stick with all games.
And, yes, it's a great thing; mainly for isometric games.

gamevet
01-14-2012, 03:44 PM
@gamevet
lol. I had to rep you after that.
I will have to rep you 3x: 1-For my ignorant rant against you, 2-For the Saturn info, 3-For the PS1 info, 'cause all those Japanese games that are cross platform are also compatible with the PS1 mouse and they were not in the MobyGames list as well.


No problem. I just blamed it on muchisimo. ;)

Seriously, we can all have a civil (heated) discussion about subjects on this board, without it resorting to name calling and being rude.

Yeah, there were several games on the Saturn that I really thought should of had mouse support, but it wasn't enough to make me not want to play the console. I never had a mouse for the Playstation, but I thought Ultimate Doom played fine without it. I think Playstation is a great console, as do I with the PS2. Still, the Saturn is my all-time favorite console, because of Sega's arcade ports and the outstanding arcade games from Capcom, Taito, Technosoft and Treasure.

Da_Shocker
01-14-2012, 03:46 PM
I know agostinhobaroners so is it true what they say about Brazilian women?

sheath
01-14-2012, 03:47 PM
http://vinehigh.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/group-hug.jpg

gamevet
01-14-2012, 03:51 PM
I know agostinhobaroners so is it true what they say about Brazilian women?

True story: My friend went down to Brazil for Foreign Echange. He had sex with 2 woman on the beach. An American girl he was with took pictures of the event with his camera, little to his knowledge. He got back home and had his pictures turned into slides to show the family. The Grandparents came over and Alex was showing the slides to the family, when all of the sudden a picture shows up with Alex being rode by the 2 girls. His grandparents leave the room, while Al notices his dad has a shit eating grin. :lol:

KnightWarrior
01-14-2012, 04:06 PM
Dark isn't in this thread no more

Barone
01-14-2012, 04:31 PM
(looks like my browser just is hating the "reply with quote" button)
@gamevet
I remember that we had some other previous very bad fights and, so, your first post, answering to me when I was answering to another guy sounded to me like something on purpose in that moment (mainly for the Sega CD comment) ; since we usually don't exchange civilized messages.

Anyway, the rough route is never a good way, so I apologize for that... But the Sega CD surely has more than two games that worth something.

Also, maybe my focus on the peripherals also sounded like something on purpose, but I just love controllers and peripherals. I have more than 30 MD controllers, from several models and I'm very fussy about this matter. My collection of PS1 controllers and peripherals are also growing faster... So I understand how this discussion about mouses and bla bla bla is useless for most of the guys but for me it makes sense.
Finally, my taste certainly is mainly for 16-bit games or, today, unpopular genres like FMV, point-and-click adventures (that's why I mentioned the Sega CD in my first post)... And I'm one of those that prefer SNK over Capcom fighters. So the appeal of the Saturn to me is not that great as it can be for the more "normal" 2D lovers.

@Da_Shocker
ahahahahahah
I'll tell you things based on what foreign people usually take wrong about Brazilian women:
1)Not all women here are whores, but in coastal cities there's a big sex commerce... Rio de Janeiro being the #1 IMO. However, it's dangerous as hell in all aspects and I really recommend you to do not search for this kind of "service".
2)Generally speaking, Brazilian people really like to make parties and all that stuff. Also, they usually love when some foreign person come to here, so you will automatically have a big extra bonus to meet and date with most of the girls.
3)Not every woman likes the music style called "Samba"; so many guys come here expecting it all the time and just get a huge "booooo".
4)Some people say something about the Brazilian women being the most beautiful or hottie or whotever but I really don't buy it. In certain places, you'll think that you arrived at the paradise. In others you'll be in hell. It also depends on your preferences.
I can assure you, though, that in cities like São Paulo you can find all kinds of people of all physical types and whatever from all over the world...

If you need more specific info, just send a PM.;)

@sheath
yuck!

@gamevet
lol

sheath
01-14-2012, 04:36 PM
I like the look of the PS2 . . . it's not the best looking system, but it's kind of cool. (more so upright, though it's more practical on its side -especially as it's flat/broad shape makes it practical to stack or place on narrow shelves -unlike the rounded top of the Xbox -or PS3- and top loading nature of other consoles)


I like the PS2 when it looks like this:

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/XBOXSMASH.jpg

j_factor
01-14-2012, 04:46 PM
http://i.imgur.com/jUNzt.jpg

gamevet
01-14-2012, 04:48 PM
(looks like my browser just is hating the "reply with quote" button)
@gamevet
I remember that we had some other previous very bad fights and, so, your first post, answering to me when I was answer to another guy sounded, to me, like something on purpose in that moment (mainly for the Sega CD comment) ; since we usually don't exchange civilized messages.

Anyway, the rough route is never a good way, so I apologize for that... But the Sega CD surely has more than two games that worth something.



I had about 50 titles for the Sega CD. Yeah, I enjoyed playing some of the FMV stuff, Dark Wizard and Vay, but I really don't miss those titles enough to buy them again. I do, however, regret selling Snatcher and the Lunars, though I have rebought the Lunar games on the Playstation. I never did get to play the Space Adventure (sold it Melf I believe), but from what I've heard it wasn't all that great. I've recently bought Double Switch for the Saturn, so maybe one day I'll give it a spin.

If I found a working model 1 Sega CD, I might go back to playing it, but for now I just emulate the titles I never got to play.

Barone
01-14-2012, 05:20 PM
Space Adventure Cobra is a good game IMO; but that kind of game relies a lot on its atmosphere. And it's a huge letdown when you're trying to hear some dialogues and you just can't cause the music is too loud and/or the voices are too quiet. Well, ok, I don't think that it would be on par with Snatcher anyway, but you'd probably like it if was not for such "detail".
In the same vein of Snatcher, another great title would be Illusion City (where are you, StarMist?) but it's all in Japanese and no translations in the horizon... It's a very well known game by MSX hardcore fans... There was a fan translation project for the MSX version several years ago (Melf also received an e-mail from one of the guys) but it stopped after translate the 6/8 floppy disk.
Cutscenes look amazing, as well as the music sounds superb...

8CXilJIHAbU
http://www.segagagadomain.com/mega_cd-info/illusioncity.htm

I missed more good cyberpunk games in the 32-bit era. No 2D sequel to Flashback? Why?

Kamahl
01-14-2012, 06:17 PM
Why does the movement have to be choppy like the MSX version :S?. It's not even a hardware limitation there...

Black_Tiger
01-14-2012, 06:58 PM
Space Adventure Cobra is a good game IMO; but that kind of game relies a lot on its atmosphere. And it's a huge letdown when you're trying to hear some dialogues and you just can't cause the music is too loud and/or the voices are too quiet. Well, ok, I don't think that it would be on par with Snatcher anyway, but you'd probably like it if was not for such "detail".
In the same vein of Snatcher, another great title would be Illusion City (where are you, StarMist?) but it's all in Japanese and no translations in the horizon... It's a very well known game by MSX hardcore fans... There was a fan translation project for the MSX version several years ago (Melf also received an e-mail from one of the guys) but it stopped after translate the 6/8 floppy disk.
Cutscenes look amazing, as well as the music sounds superb...

The Space Adventure is a better game than Snatcher. If you're having trouble with the volume of Genesis sound in Sega-CD games, you need to get a model 1 Genesis, line the audio out of the headphone jack and adjust the volume on the console.

Zoltor
01-14-2012, 07:31 PM
I had about 50 titles for the Sega CD. Yeah, I enjoyed playing some of the FMV stuff, Dark Wizard and Vay, but I really don't miss those titles enough to buy them again. I do, however, regret selling Snatcher and the Lunars, though I have rebought the Lunar games on the Playstation. I never did get to play the Space Adventure (sold it Melf I believe), but from what I've heard it wasn't all that great. I've recently bought Double Switch for the Saturn, so maybe one day I'll give it a spin.

If I found a working model 1 Sega CD, I might go back to playing it, but for now I just emulate the titles I never got to play.

How could you not miss Dark Wizard, sure Vay is below standards with all the great RPGs that exist now+the ones that existed then, but Dark Wizard is a different story, It's an amazing tactic game.

gamevet
01-14-2012, 08:19 PM
How could you not miss Dark Wizard, sure Vay is below standards with all the great RPGs that exist now+the ones that existed then, but Dark Wizard is a different story, It's an amazing tactic game.

It's really a cart game with opening cut scenes and red-book audio added. As far as SRPGs go, there are far better ones like Dragon Force, Vandal Hearts and Final Fantasy Tactics on the 32-bit consoles. It's hard to go back to vanilla cone, after you've had a banana split.

TheSonicRetard
01-14-2012, 08:24 PM
It's really a cart game with opening cut scenes and red-book audio added. As far as SRPGs go, there are far better ones like Dragon Force, Vandal Hearts and Final Fantasy Tactics on the 32-bit consoles. It's hard to go back to vanilla cone, after you've had a banana split.

You forget a better game on the same hardware - Shining Force CD.

Although, if you're saying 32-bit consoles offered banana split variants, you can't leave out Shining Force III, which is a banana split with whip cream on top.

Bastardcat
01-14-2012, 08:35 PM
The Space Adventure is a better game than Snatcher. If you're having trouble with the volume of Genesis sound in Sega-CD games, you need to get a model 1 Genesis, line the audio out of the headphone jack and adjust the volume on the console.
Getting a surprise body cavity search is a better game than Snatcher.

gamevet
01-14-2012, 08:36 PM
You forget a better game on the same hardware - Shining Force CD.

Although, if you're saying 32-bit consoles offered banana split variants, you can't leave out Shining Force III, which is a banana split with whip cream on top.


Yeah, as soon as I had posted that, I was thinking it's not even as good as Shining Force, or Fire Emblem. Shining Force III isn't even a fair fight; It would take Dark Wizard out back for a good ass whooping.

Zoltor
01-14-2012, 09:12 PM
Yeah, as soon as I had posted that, I was thinking it's not even as good as Shining Force, or Fire Emblem. Shining Force III isn't even a fair fight; It would take Dark Wizard out back for a good ass whooping.

You can't compare the two.

Shining force is a true Tactic/RPG, where Dark Wizard is more of a traditional tactic game, with some RPG elements.

As for your cart comment, is that a bad thing, some of the best games ever made, are cart based, you can't downplay a game, for not being a cheasy graphic whore type of game.

Also btw, the only games simular to Dark Wizard(aside from master of monsters, which is utterly unplayable anyway), are all CD based games(Brigandine for example on the PS1).

Well anyway yea, you can't really compare a game with a more traditional gameplay style, to what the Tactic/RPG genre generally represents, the gameplay is very different.

Kamahl
01-14-2012, 09:16 PM
Dark Wizard is more similar to stuff like Advance Wars or Military Madness than Shining Force or Fire Emblem.
I'm not a big fan of it (mostly due to the godawful combat animations), but it's a good game, certainly a shining gem amidst all the fmv garbage.

gamevet
01-14-2012, 09:47 PM
You can't compare the two.

Shining force is a true Tactic/RPG, where Dark Wizard is more of a traditional tactic game, with some RPG elements.

As for your cart comment, is that a bad thing, some of the best games ever made, are cart based, you can't downplay a game, for not being a cheasy graphic whore type of game.

Also btw, the only games simular to Dark Wizard(aside from master of monsters, which is utterly unplayable anyway), are all CD based games(Brigandine for example on the PS1).

Well anyway yea, you can't really compare a game with a more traditional gameplay style, to what the Tactic/RPG genre generally represents, the gameplay is very different.

Well, you have hex versus square movement, but they are all lumped together as strategy RPGs, or Tactical. You could lump Iron Storm in there as well, but it's not an RPG.

Dark Wizard is not very high on my list for this style of game, and neither is it on this list.

http://www.listal.com/list/rpg-world-tactical-rpg

Zoltor
01-14-2012, 10:00 PM
Well, you have hex versus square movement, but they are all lumped together as strategy RPGs, or Tactical. You could lump Iron Storm in there as well, but it's not an RPG.

http://www.listal.com/list/rpg-world-tactical-rpg

No, It's bacically a tactic game, with a level system(to handle unit upgrading, instead of shear numbers being the dmg mod or needing to buy a massive amkount of weapons/skill for your army), levels alone doesn't make it a tactic/RPG, would you call Romance of the three kingdoms Tactic/RPGs, no ofcourse not, this shouldn't be either.

Trying to compare it to Shining force or FF tactics, is completely unfair, the gameplay is radically different from any tactic/RPG.

sega16
01-14-2012, 10:09 PM
Well there is one thing I don't like about the Saturn:
I don't have one.
other than that great system.

Zoltor
01-14-2012, 10:12 PM
Well there is one thing I don't like about the Saturn:
I don't have one.
other than that great system.

Don't forget the games are so overy expensive, ouch.

Black_Tiger
01-14-2012, 10:15 PM
Don't forget the games are so overy expensive, ouch.

Only the expensive games are expensive, same as any other console. There is way more than enough great games that range from dirt cheap to very reasonable.

Kamahl
01-14-2012, 10:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=170eyPKa9aE
I love how the water effect is really cheap and yet looks really cool.

sheath
01-14-2012, 10:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=170eyPKa9aE[/video]
I love how the water effect is really cheap and yet looks really cool.

Pfft, there aren't enough polygons or that to be cool.

gamevet
01-14-2012, 10:45 PM
Only the expensive games are expensive, same as any other console. There is way more than enough great games that range from dirt cheap to very reasonable.

Yeah, most my of collection is made up of games that I paid under $40 for. I bought X-Men vs. Street Fighter and Cyberbots shipped (last year) for $45 from a board member I know at another site. I picked up 3 or 4 titles in the last 6 months that were priced under $10-$15, including Tomb Raider, Thunder Strike, Die Hard Trilogy and Winter Heat. You just have to be patient and know places that occasionally sell those games.



No, It's bacically a tactic game, with a level system(to handle unit upgrading, instead of shear numbers being the dmg mod or needing to buy a massive amkount of weapons/skill for your army), levels alone doesn't make it a tactic/RPG, would you call Romance of the three kingdoms Tactic/RPGs, no ofcourse not, this shouldn't be either.

Trying to compare it to Shining force or FF tactics, is completely unfair, the gameplay is radically different from any tactic/RPG.

I'll check it out on my emulator and get back to you. It's been a loooooong time since I've played it.

StarMist
01-14-2012, 11:13 PM
In the same vein of Snatcher, another great title would be Illusion City (where are you, StarMist?) but it's all in Japanese and no translations in the horizon... It's a very well known game by MSX hardcore fans... There was a fan translation project for the MSX version several years ago (Melf also received an e-mail from one of the guys) but it stopped after translate the 6/8 floppy disk.
Cutscenes look amazing, as well as the music sounds superb...

I missed more good cyberpunk games in the 32-bit era. No 2D sequel to Flashback? Why?
Sorry, agostinho, I don't see all that much appeal in this game. The graphics are 8 bit (SMS) quality and the screen is never full, making the realistically narrow figures and drab colours into a generally unpleasant exp on the eyes. Is the music so great? I'll have to check it again but I remember some part of it early on turning me off. I understand you want something from this era of cyberpunk feel rather than your desire just being Sega jingoism or completism, so I won't suggest looking to later consoles as I would for those into SRPGs such as the discussion in this thread or a while ago where some members wished Vixen 357 translated (just buy the many PS2 SRPGs); games of this type and era truly won't be peered elsewhere yet I can't help feeling this is far from the head of the pack when the Duo's library is factored in. There must also be some relevant PC exclusives. Furthermore Illusion City's very short, shorter than the US Snatcher unless the latter's being run through by somebody who knows or simply dislikes it; I'm not saying that's a positive demerit, especially when viewed from the retro as-if-it's-new stance, but it does contravene one's sense of anticipation.
For comparison's sake how did you like Rise of the Dragon? Or Hell on 3D0? >>> Which reminds me I ought to give Illusion City another shot: it's Micro Cabin so it can't be all bad. (MC of Lucienne's Quest fame).

EDITS=
---@ that fan translation for the msx = gamefaqs has a review of the game with Eng screenshots and no mention of JP from the reviewer so it seems to have been finished.

Changing the topic: with all this SRPG talk I'm curious to hear whether you're a Shining Force CD fan. I'm not.

Zoltor
01-14-2012, 11:28 PM
Isn't out of this world, the sequel to Flashback or was it the other way around?

eddiespruce
01-14-2012, 11:31 PM
Isn't out of this world, the sequel to Flashback or was it the other way around?

Technically, "Heart of the Alien" is the sequel to Out of this World. However, like out of this world, Flashback was also created by Delphine Software, but Heart of the Alien wasn't.

sheath
01-14-2012, 11:32 PM
Neither are sequels, they are just two different games with similar graphics. Out of this World was the first of the rotoscoped games. Prince of Persia was the first of its type if you don't include Super Pitfall and Aztec Adventure.

Zoltor
01-14-2012, 11:53 PM
Neither are sequels, they are just two different games with similar graphics. Out of this World was the first of the rotoscoped games. Prince of Persia was the first of its type if you don't include Super Pitfall and Aztec Adventure.

Hm ok, I remember hearing one of them was suppose to be a sequel to the other.

Barone
01-15-2012, 12:22 AM
Sorry, agostinho, I don't see all that much appeal in this game. The graphics are 8 bit (SMS) quality and the screen is never full, making the realistically narrow figures and drab colours into a generally unpleasant exp on the eyes. Is the music so great? I'll have to check it again but I remember some part of it early on turning me off. I understand you want something from this era of cyberpunk feel rather than your desire just being Sega jingoism or completism, so I won't suggest looking to later consoles as I would for those into SRPGs such as the discussion in this thread or a while ago where some members wished Vixen 357 translated (just buy the many PS2 SRPGs); games of this type and era truly won't be peered elsewhere yet I can't help feeling this is far from the head of the pack when the Duo's library is factored in. There must also be some relevant PC exclusives. Furthermore Illusion City's very short, shorter than the US Snatcher unless the latter's being run through by somebody who knows or simply dislikes it; I'm not saying that's a positive demerit, especially when viewed from the retro as-if-it's-new stance, but it does contravene one's sense of anticipation.
For comparison's sake how did you like Rise of the Dragon? Or Hell on 3D0? >>> Which reminds me I ought to give Illusion City another shot: it's Micro Cabin so it can't be all bad. (MC of Lucienne's Quest fame).

EDITS=
---@ that fan translation for the msx = gamefaqs has a review of the game with Eng screenshots and no mention of JP from the reviewer so it seems to have been finished.

Changing the topic: with all this SRPG talk I'm curious to hear whether you're a Shining Force CD fan. I'm not.
This thread really had the "power" of make me act in the opposite side of my usual profile. I was firing at a Sega console and now I'm going to advocate a "bad looking" game. My, my...

It's graphics are all about the poor colors, a windowed screen and it's primitive scrolling?
I could waste hours struggling with my vocabulary, but I will just suggest you to take a look at this review (the reviewer is not a permanent fanboy since he panned other games):
http://www.mobygames.com/game/sega-cd/illusion-city-genei-toshi/reviews/reviewerId,6226/
And, then, the screenshots:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/sega-cd/illusion-city-genei-toshi/screenshots

I like this part:
"I understand you want something from this era of cyberpunk feel rather than your desire just being Sega jingoism or completism,"
I'm an "improver" more than a "completist". Most of those Japanese-only Mega CD games could burn in hell and I would not give a single fuck (Cyborg 009 being the first one maybe...).
As for the cyberpunk stuff, some works are rough but still good; some others are filled with action, overstylized stuff and still a piece of crap.
I like "The Running Man" movie (yes, that with Schwarzenegger) ("Death Tower" from Flashback is based on that novel/movie) more than those lame sequels to Matrix.
And Dark City more than Matrix by a far margin...
That's why I prefer Snatcher and not Space Adventure Cobra: the former has less "overs" and more atmosphere.
Rise Of The Dragon? The character design does not make me that happy... I think this game missed many good points of Blade Runner's atmosphere.
It's a good cyberpunk game but far from being mind blowing IMO.



The problem with newer stuff is: IMO culture, in all forms, is bloody decadent and poor these days. The games only reflect the uninspired movies, the stupid books and the poor-minded game designers of today (and do not try to tell me the opposite, it would be a waste of time; call me ignorant or whatever I don't care).

So I prefer to dig the old 8-bitish looking games like that than expecting something really outstanding from this generation.
Do you want longer games? Go play Lego Harry Potter Years 1-4.
But I just pass...

"so I won't suggest looking to later consoles as I would for those into SRPGs such as the discussion in this thread or a while ago where some members wished Vixen 357 translated (just buy the many PS2 SRPGs)"
My blood pressure says "thanks".


About the Eng translation:
My search system is also broken in this thread as everybody noticed, so I couldn't find the complete translation (if it really exists).

Gogogadget
01-15-2012, 12:39 AM
Hm ok, I remember hearing one of them was suppose to be a sequel to the other.

Fade to Black is the sequel to Flashback

StarMist
01-15-2012, 12:59 AM
[QUOTE]It's graphics are all about the poor colors, a windowed screen and it's primitive scrolling?
I could waste hours struggling with my vocabulary, but I will just suggest you to take a look at this review .... And, then, the screenshots
I know how it looks. I only checked gamefaqs to verify the windowing was a general effect and not something I buggered on emulation. My comments were in reply to your praise of the game's looks; however appealing the cuts and FMV are the game's meat revolves round some ugly little sprites. Do they wreck it? Probably not, but they're uninviting when one has many other games to try.


I like this part:I can't decide whether you're sincere or facetious, or whether you understood all I said. Or perhaps you supposed me oblique. To be clear: I was not advocating newer games in this genre. Only pause to weigh how many members would consider the Genesis their (near) favourite system had 2D gaming never been discontinued on later consoles.
Yes Running Man was well done, as so many things prior digital editing were.


Rise Of The Dragon? The character design does not make me that happy... I think this game missed many good points of Blade Runner's atmosphere.
It's a good cyberpunk game but far from being mind blowing IMO.I couldn't take much of it; wasn't expecting Snatcher, but then I wasn't expecting Snatcher from Snatcher itself.


The problem with newer stuff is: IMO culture, in all forms, is bloody decadent and poor these days. The games only reflect the uninspired movies, the stupid books and the poor-minded game designers of today (and do not try to tell me the opposite, it would be a waste of time; call me ignorant or whatever I don't care).It's disappointing there's no Live/PSN stuff of this sort. It ought to be the easiest thing to do: screen to screen with 1 drawing each, with VA optional. And the easier it is to do that means the more folk should have access to attempting it. Plus it seems the more tech minded people are the less creative---all the big developers should hire designers who know nothing of programming and have a clean imaginative slate rather than depending upon the occasional drops of inspiration from folk who've been squeezed through the tech/university wringer.



Do you want longer games? Go play Lego Harry Potter Years 1-4. This sort of bitchy answer to a point clearly defined and contained to a certain object just makes you look illiterate. Nobody will point to your nationality in such cases but rather, justly, to your short temper.

Barone
01-15-2012, 01:24 AM
@StarMist
lol
Hey, man, I wasn't bitchin' at all... My temper is very short, yes, but I was just kidding about what you said. Actually I found strange you mention the shortness of the game as a problem, 'cause you usually don't use that kind of cliché to analyze a game.

I just talked about Lego 'cause my sister was playing it the other day in a X360 and I found it a perfect example of everything that I hate about these days. I thought that you would realize that Lego Harry Potter was so lame that I just couldn't be talking seriously...

And I was being sincere when I said that I liked that, it's just funny to know how people see me as such a weirdo.

What you said about Live/PSN is the exact same thing that I always think: heck, is it so hard to localize those old games using some overscreen stuff? NO!
Rise Of The Dragon could have benefited from a more mature take (and less hentai take) than Snatcher. From more suspense than action... But I think they missed the point in the middle of the road.



Am I the only one who thinks that Fade To Black was a let down?

StarMist
01-15-2012, 02:47 AM
@StarMist
Actually I found strange you mention the shortness of the game as a problem, 'cause you usually don't use that kind of cliché to analyze a game.Not any game, games whose main attraction is 'story' (not what I consider story, the common notion of a dialogue//plot amalgam), RPG elements, or atmosphere. Atmosphere needs a certain amount of time and space to breathe. Hence my disfavour of Phantasy Star IV, which is briefer than Snatcher and probably Illusion City as well. More importantly, I qualified it as a conflict with anticipation. I don't know how long you've been awaiting a translation but the longer you have the longer you'll want the game to be. The argument might be raised quality is what matters most, which is true, but this genre doesn't afford much replay value. We all likely have more than enough new game to explore for replay value to be irrelevant yet it remains odd the degree to which I enjoyed Snatcher but at once have no desire to replay it a 2nd time. (I breezed through it a 2nd time but that was very different from my first, leisurely pace).


I thought that you would realize that Lego Harry Potter was so lame that I just couldn't be talking seriously...
But you got my blood up. Lego games are fighting words.


Rise Of The Dragon
Look in to that Hell game on 3D0. Even if you haven't the console you could probably run it in FreeD0 given its nature. Though why someone who likes the SCD so much and just created a thread linking favourable FMV game reviews wouldn't own a 3D0 is a bit beyond me. It even has a Capcom soldier pad (or just supports it well via converter).


Am I the only one who thinks that Fade To Black was a let down?Can't say. I think the earlier games cool but profoundly suck at them so most of the canon's beyond my grasp.

Zoltor
01-15-2012, 02:47 AM
Fade to Black is the sequel to Flashback

Ok

gamevet
01-15-2012, 03:19 AM
No, It's bacically a tactic game, with a level system(to handle unit upgrading, instead of shear numbers being the dmg mod or needing to buy a massive amkount of weapons/skill for your army), levels alone doesn't make it a tactic/RPG, would you call Romance of the three kingdoms Tactic/RPGs, no ofcourse not, this shouldn't be either.

Trying to compare it to Shining force or FF tactics, is completely unfair, the gameplay is radically different from any tactic/RPG.

Alright, I've just completed the first level, but the game locked up after I finished it. :(

This game is sort of a mix of Dragon Force (capturing cities) and Final Fantasy Tactics (class/job system). Unlike FF Tactics, this game allows you to change classes of your beginning characters (this is a plus), as they level up, but the upgrade doesn't seem like a major advancement. The capturing of cities/castles doesn't seem like a major tactic at this stage of the game, but it will probably be a bigger factor later on in the game when income becomes more important to summoning and hiring addition units. The battles are about as basic as it get (almost like the early RPGs on the C64) with text telling you the results of the battles, but no animation at all to reflect that. Still, this is a very enjoyable game, and a must play for anyone that owns the Sega CD.

Is this a game that would sway someone to buy a Sega CD? No, but it most definitly is a must own for someone that invested in the system. I'd rank it as a top 10 Sega CD title for sure, but I don't think the game does enough to separate it from other SRPGs that came out later.

Rep +1

Nuxius
01-15-2012, 06:18 AM
I missed more good cyberpunk games in the 32-bit era.
Ditto. I love me some good cyberpunk. :D


No 2D sequel to Flashback? Why?
Because Delphine got shut down before Flashback Legends was complete.

Kamahl
01-15-2012, 10:01 AM
with text telling you the results of the battles, but no animation at all to reflect that.
You can turn on animations for the battles actually... But they are HORRIBLE. We're talking braindamage inducing stuff here. I've seen better looking animations on a ZX Spectrum.

Thenewguy
01-15-2012, 10:57 AM
Hmmm, Souky definitely looks noticeably worse on Playstation.

I have no idea what the guy is saying, but the video seems to indicate that the Playstation version has a lot more slowdown, and some downgraded effects, including missing transparencies.

NG7GGHkEZ7U

gamevet
01-15-2012, 12:19 PM
You can turn on animations for the battles actually... But they are HORRIBLE. We're talking braindamage inducing stuff here. I've seen better looking animations on a ZX Spectrum.

They could of at least had the sprites flash as they got hit, or show an animation on the battlefield like Vandal Hearts or Final Fantasy Tactics does. You don't need a big cut/action scene like those used in Shining Force or Iron Storm.

Kamahl
01-15-2012, 04:15 PM
They have some animations for spells, like a flame and such. They really should have made a "cut" animation or something for normal attacks.

Zoltor
01-15-2012, 05:33 PM
They could of at least had the sprites flash as they got hit, or show an animation on the battlefield like Vandal Hearts or Final Fantasy Tactics does. You don't need a big cut/action scene like those used in Shining Force or Iron Storm.

Like he said, they are bad, specifically on how slow they are, the game is a lot for fun with them turned off.

Yea, I wouldn't mind just a flash effect, but after alittle bit, you get used to it not being there, so It's not a big deal.

Barone
01-19-2012, 02:27 PM
Ditto. I love me some good cyberpunk. :D


Because Delphine got shut down before Flashback Legends was complete.

Yep pretty sad.

Just a necro-back to the topic:
Saturn also lacks PC games like: Wing Commander, Rebel Assault, Dune and Syndicate.

I love some Psygnosis games and just PS1 had them: Lomax, Novastorm, Mickey's Wild Adventure (the definitive version of Mickey Mania) and Colony Wars.
They also published Discworld II and Speedster (I like this mediocre game; great soundtrack and arcade gameplay).

Finally, in the same vein of Soulstar and Starfox, PS1 had Vanark and Space Debris.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-19-2012, 02:37 PM
I'm pretty sure there are some Saturn games similar to those PC titles you listed. I know there's Stellar Assault SS if I remember correctly. There's also Panzer Dragoon which is a pretty good response to Starfox.

But I wouldn't say Saturn lacks PC games, there's all these remember:
Doom
Hexen
Quake
Duke Nukem 3D
Powerslave
Warcraft II
Command and Conquer
Myst
Riven

and I'm pretty sure there's more than that.

Barone
01-19-2012, 02:58 PM
Pazer Dragoon is awesome, hands down; but:
Dragoon != Spaceship

"Doom
Hexen
Quake
Duke Nukem 3D
Powerslave
Warcraft II
Command and Conquer
Myst
Riven"
All of them for PS1 as well. Final Doom, Quake II, Command & Conquer: Red Alert...

What does Saturn have similar to Wing Commander? Shockwave Assault (which is also on the PS1)?
PS1 has Colony Wars.

sheath
01-19-2012, 03:14 PM
Yeah, one of the things I noticed right away when I got into PS1 gaming was its real strength in story games. I generally dislike story games, Colony Wars was cool to play through just once.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-19-2012, 03:19 PM
Pazer Dragoon is awesome, hands down; but:
Dragoon != Spaceship

"Doom
Hexen
Quake
Duke Nukem 3D
Powerslave
Warcraft II
Command and Conquer
Myst
Riven"
All of them for PS1 as well. Final Doom, Quake II, Command & Conquer: Red Alert...

What does Saturn have similar to Wing Commander? Shockwave Assault (which is also on the PS1)?
PS1 has Colony Wars.


They are also on PC too you know, I guess that makes them not worth mentioning for either system then.

And Quake 2 is not the same as Quake 1. So that doesn't count as being on PS1 as well. Also some of those games are better on Saturn than they are on PS1.

Phantar
01-19-2012, 03:48 PM
I was immensely disappointed of the Saturn; it was the reason I turned my back on concurrent console Gaming and stuck to the PC until the PS3 and XBOX360 came along. That was because back when it was released, I had totally bought into the Hype and got the console the First week of its release - and there were only six Games available. I got two: daytona USA, which was Fun, but WAY too short - and Fifa '96, which is, was, and forever Shall be, a horrible piece of crap! So my First experience with the Saturn was a disappointing one. In further years I could only get my hands on a scant few titles - Most of which were crap, and even those of the more lauded titles (like Resident Evil or Tomb Raider) I didn't like at all. The only Saturn Games that I could get my hands on and actually liked were Fighters Megamix and the two Virtua Cop-Games - and the latter I can't Play anymore since I don't have a CRT Tv.

Over the years I softened up a little towards the Saturn. Still, to the very Dayi feel that it was the biggest waste of my money when it comes to consoles. I don't loathe it (anymore), but it definitely is the least favorite Out of all the consoles and Computers that I own (and the only reason I still own it is because the two Times I tried to sell it, I couldn't find a buyer, even when I Put it up on eBay for 1€!)

TrekkiesUnite118
01-19-2012, 03:54 PM
Well, that sounds more like you didn't try any good games for it. Try some of the RPGs, FPS's, 2D Fighters, other 3D Fighters, and some of the shooters.

Breetai
01-19-2012, 04:32 PM
Well, that sounds more like you didn't try any good games for it. Try some of the RPGs, FPS's, 2D Fighters, other 3D Fighters, and some of the shooters.
It sounds exactly like that.

Back when it was new, at least here in Canada (I'm guessing where this guy was as well), there was only so much selection to choose from. When a decent game came out, the run was so short that it was gone from stores in a few months. Yes, there are a TON of great games, but at the time, I could not often find them. One would come out that I wanted. I'd save money for a few months, and then I couldn't find it again.

The Saturn didn't fail because of the games that were made for it, it failed because of marketing (resulting in a difficult time FINDING the good games for it).

It is much easier to find those games now, with the internet, so the excuse being used here is simply no longer relevant. Between finding anything on the net, the ease of playing imports, and the ease of getting a mod chip to try anything, the Saturn really does hold up to any other console. Some people are just to unwilling/jaded/lazy to even try.

sheath
01-19-2012, 04:36 PM
It sounds exactly like that.

Back when it was new, at least here in Canada (I'm guessing where this guy was as well), there was only so much selection to choose from. When a decent game came out, the run was so short that it was gone from stores in a few months. Yes, there are a TON of great games, but at the time, I could not often find them. One would come out that I wanted. I'd save money for a few months, and then I couldn't find it again.

The Saturn didn't fail because of the games that were made for it, it failed because of marketing (resulting in a difficult time FINDING the good games for it).

It is much easier to find those games now, with the internet, so the excuse being used here is simply no longer relevant. Between finding anything on the net, the ease of playing imports, and the ease of getting a mod chip to try anything, the Saturn really does hold up to any other console. Some people are just to unwilling/jaded/lazy to even try.

This needs to go viral, it needs to be made in to a plaque. Everybody who ever comments on the Saturn should be forced to read this first.

Thenewguy
01-19-2012, 04:51 PM
It sounds exactly like that.

Back when it was new, at least here in Canada (I'm guessing where this guy was as well), there was only so much selection to choose from. When a decent game came out, the run was so short that it was gone from stores in a few months. Yes, there are a TON of great games, but at the time, I could not often find them. One would come out that I wanted. I'd save money for a few months, and then I couldn't find it again.

The Saturn didn't fail because of the games that were made for it, it failed because of marketing (resulting in a difficult time FINDING the good games for it).

It is much easier to find those games now, with the internet, so the excuse being used here is simply no longer relevant. Between finding anything on the net, the ease of playing imports, and the ease of getting a mod chip to try anything, the Saturn really does hold up to any other console. Some people are just to unwilling/jaded/lazy to even try.When games were few and far between I thought the Saturn was a very good system, when games for these systems were easy to get hold of, now thats when I realised just how disappointing the system was, because I could better see the bigger picture.

Zoltor
01-19-2012, 04:52 PM
This needs to go viral, it needs to be made in to a plaque. Everybody who ever comments on the Saturn should be forced to read this first.

Do people actually think it failed because it was a bad system though? I think everyone knows it failed due to marketing, and just that(granted the PS would've still been on top that generation, but the Saturn would've easily crushed the N64).

People on this site just know how bad the marketing, and in general Sega "really" was at the time(SOJ wanted to be gunho with the Saturn in NA, while SOA where completely against it, so much so, if I remember the facts correctls, that's how we ended up with the POS 32x), but yea I think everyone in the world knows by now, the Saturn failed due to marketing.

Samspade
01-19-2012, 04:58 PM
I think the biggest issue with the Saturn at the time of it's release is the simple fact that so many fantastic games didn't see US release. I know that I didn't really get on board with the saturn until a few years ago when I started really looking at all the great 2D shmups and fighters that the system had to offer. I can also see this as being a moot point back then since everything was making the push so hard for 3D games, I think that the classic 2D stuff got left in the dust only to be rediscovered by hobbyists like ourselves.

There are tons of amazing (and console exclusive) games for the saturn, it's a far underrated system, you just need to know where to look to find some of the greatness.

sheath
01-19-2012, 05:01 PM
All I can say is that I have very rarely seen a conversation about the Saturn online that did not include quotes like "it didn't have any good games" and "it wasn't good at 3D" as primary reasons to why the system failed to sell far into the mass market.

Some of these comments even come from executives like Bernie Stolar, Vic Ireland, Trip Hawkins, and others who journalists turn to as stand-by sources. It is a normal accusation against the Saturn though, that it just did not have good games, and could not do 3D on the level with the Playstation in particular.

Phantar
01-19-2012, 05:07 PM
Well, that sounds more like you didn't try any good games for it. Try some of the RPGs, FPS's, 2D Fighters, other 3D Fighters, and some of the shooters.

I don't care about shooters, the 3D Fighters mostly felt all alike (which is why I quickly singled out Fighters Megamix), the FPS's were lame when compared to the PC, and there were hardly any RPG's available in my area. Like I said: I couldn't get hold of any decent games back then, which is why I hold the Saturn in little regard. Now if lightened up a little, but back when it was released I felt strongly disappointed to the point of actually feeling resentment towards the console. NOW I know that there were better games out there than the ones I could get hold of. But I still stand to it: Out of all the consoles I own, I like the Saturn the least.

Samspade
01-19-2012, 05:09 PM
All I can say is that I have very rarely seen a conversation about the Saturn online that did not include quotes like "it didn't have any good games" and "it wasn't good at 3D" as primary reasons to why the system failed to sell far into the mass market.

Some of these comments even come from executives like Bernie Stolar, Vic Ireland, Trip Hawkins, and others who journalists turn to as stand-by sources. It is a normal accusation against the Saturn though, that it just did not have good games, and could not do 3D on the level with the Playstation in particular.

There's alot of fantastic 3D games like Burning Rangers and Knights. I think the main issue is that there wasn't that killer app game to compete with Sony. Sonic didn't have such a good footing in the 3D element, and games like the Final Fantasy franchise and Resident Evil were pretty much exclusive to Sony.

sheath
01-19-2012, 05:14 PM
I think the main issue is that advertising and the media over emphasize games that flash in the pan (i.e. the mass market), rather than games that do new things. The Playstation had more "hits" or "AAA" titles that made a companies a lot of money, so it was presented better in the free advertizing that is the gaming media.

Zoltor
01-19-2012, 05:18 PM
All I can say is that I have very rarely seen a conversation about the Saturn online that did not include quotes like "it didn't have any good games" and "it wasn't good at 3D" as primary reasons to why the system failed to sell far into the mass market.

Some of these comments even come from executives like Bernie Stolar, Vic Ireland, Trip Hawkins, and others who journalists turn to as stand-by sources. It is a normal accusation against the Saturn though, that it just did not have good games, and could not do 3D on the level with the Playstation in particular.

Well that's BS though(it was better at 3D then the PS, and while the N64 was great at 3D, textures, and such are the worst ever, not to mention the limited space, which lead to most games, with a few exceptions looking fugly, a issue the Saturn didn't have).

Also the lack of library on the NA Saturn, is dirrectly tied to bad marketing, and the fact SOA didn't want anything to do with it to beginwith. With that said though, there's still some good games for it.

The same executives that didn't want to release the system to beginwith, um I think we should ignore those morons(or better yet, ask them how they think their plan to basically pass(not market it/ignore it) on the Saturn, and make the 32x instead went lol, that should shut them up.

It's a shame their false info is floating on the net though.

Breetai
01-19-2012, 06:08 PM
When games were few and far between I thought the Saturn was a very good system, when games for these systems were easy to get hold of, now thats when I realised just how disappointing the system was, because I could better see the bigger picture.

I could see someone thinking that if they didn't like shoot 'em ups, 2D fighters, 3D fighters, puzzle games, arcade-style Racing games or RPGs.

Barone
01-19-2012, 06:54 PM
@Zoltor
"Well that's BS though(it was better at 3D then the PS"
Explain or just tell me that it was a joke.

Thenewguy
01-19-2012, 06:58 PM
I could see someone thinking that if they didn't like shoot 'em ups, 2D fighters, 3D fighters, puzzle games, arcade-style Racing games or RPGs.Anyone who likes RPG's, and racing games would be doing themselves a huge disservice wasting time with the Saturn, most of these types of games are hugely uncompetitive on Saturn.

Saturn RPGs are pitiful in comparison to the best on Playstation.

Saturn was very good for racing games at the end of 1995, but it never progressed anywhere, by the end of 1996 it was bad for racing games, and by the end of 1997 it was abysmal for racing games.

Saturn is bloody awful for 3D platform games, and 3D adventure games too.

Saturn is very competitive with fighting games, and fairly competitive with scrolling shmups, those are pretty much the only two genre's which I would recommend the machine based on, and even then, after spending ages going on about how great the Saturn is for shmups a couple of years ago, when I finally got around to buying loads on PS1 I found that I prefered the shmups on PS1 anyway :bang:, they're just much more inventive games, my favourite on Saturn was DoDonPachi, and I then found out that game was one of the few multi-platforms which was better on PS1 anyway :bang:, another load of money I'd wasted on the damn thing.

Zoltor
01-19-2012, 07:02 PM
@Zoltor
"Well that's BS though(it was better at 3D then the PS"
Explain or just tell me that it was a joke.

Explain, look at the libraries, It's pretty damn clear which system did 3D better. The PS is godly at 2D, but it sure as hell Isn't a system that is especially good at 3D(it pulls semi 3D off fine though, just not pure 3D).

eddiespruce
01-19-2012, 07:06 PM
Explain, look at the libraries, It's pretty damn clear which system did 3D better. The PS is godly at 2D, but it sure as hell Isn't a system that has 3D has a strong point.

No offense, but I think you have it backwards. PS was better at 3D than 2D. 2D is where the Saturn shined.

Zoltor
01-19-2012, 07:08 PM
Yea that's why all the awesome examples of 3D are on Saturn, and all the awesome examples of 2D are on the PS(the PS was meh at 3D).

The only good example of 3D on the PS, is Tenchu.

StarMist
01-19-2012, 07:23 PM
When games were few and far between I thought the Saturn was a very good system, when games for these systems were easy to get hold of, now thats when I realised just how disappointing the system was, because I could better see the bigger picture.I could see someone thinking that if they didn't like shoot 'em ups, 2D fighters, 3D fighters, puzzle games, arcade-style Racing games or RPGs.
He likes the Dreamcast. Enough said.

I think it quite the reverse: had the Saturn to be my only system when it came out I should've felt it lacking. I went with the Playstation early and got a Saturn later and will never regret it. But as a system that doesn't have to fill every gaming appetite it performs exceedingly well. In those straits the Genesis would be pretty ill off as well; only the PS and NES are self sufficient. The SNES, as much as naturally like it and am cultivating a taste for, is essentially restricted to those late hours I want my 16 bit gaming decaffeinated. So if the Saturn only has half as many choices in half as many genres as the PS, and most of them are good to great, that's more than enough.
Btw it's also solid for psychological/horror games and FPS.

edit : @ Zoltor//agostinho =
@Zoltor
"Well that's BS though(it was better at 3D then the PS)"
Explain or just tell me that it was a joke.
Sega's best efforts are better than the majority of PS titles in solidity, colour, and framerate. To wit Nights, the Panzer Dragoons (including Saga), Burning Rangers...well everything but their racing games, I don't know what went wrong in that dept. -- Though, back at Thenewguy, nothing on PS compares to Sega Rally for arcade racing. Wipeout on PS is the antithesis of arcade racing, and the rest are party games such as Jet Moto, or sims cum street racers which are always garbage--. Panzer Dragoon Saga's giant enemies uniformly look better in every way than FF7's. Virtua Fighter 2 compares very favourably to Tekken 2. Even Wipeout on Saturn is very close to the PS game despite running 15% faster (my personal estimate, may be slightly less), and that's one of the PS's best looking games. It's only with Square's later games, from Chrono Cross to threads of Fate to the obvious inexhorable FFVIII and FFIX that the PS badly outclassed Sega's Saturn efforts.
On the other hand, for the common, lazily ported, rushed out the Playstation's back door stuff, the Saturn's 3D does look markedly worse. At best there are trade offs like with RE's backgrounds (the method Sega ought to have used for VF's btw). PS launch titles looked the worst on the Saturn because by the time of their porting they were already irrelevant--think Toshinden.

NeoZeedeater
01-19-2012, 08:00 PM
But as a system that doesn't have to fill every gaming appetite it performs exceedingly well. In those straits the Genesis would be pretty ill off as well; only the PS and NES are self sufficient.
I don't get this. The Genesis had something for everyone into gaming, moreso than the SNES and TG16, IMO. If you throw in the Sega CD it covers quality traditional adventure games the others lack (outside of the Duo port of Loom). It seems as "self-sufficient" as the PS and NES to me.

kool kitty89
01-19-2012, 08:07 PM
Yeah, one of the things I noticed right away when I got into PS1 gaming was its real strength in story games. I generally dislike story games, Colony Wars was cool to play through just once.
I personally love story games . . . not all story-based games mind-you, but well made ones at least . . . or quirky ones. (especially in genres I like)
That's why I really like some of the early multimedia-era stuff, from some of the quirky cases (like Return to Zork) to genuine high-budget high-quality cinema style cutscenes combined with solid gameplay/design. (like Wing Commander III)

Not to mention some of the story-based games with less FMV-cutscene-centric aspects. (like Lucas Arts advernture games, the X-Wing series -Allaince had the most involved story IMO- and some older/classic style RPGs and adventure games -and most of the Zelda games for that matter, especially the newer ones)

I'm not the kind of person to skip cutscenes . . . and sometimes re-watch scenes that I particularly liked. (and re-play games to find alternate cutscenes and such)

That said, I do dislike non-skipable cutscenes. (namely if I've seen them before or the few cases where I really don't care to watch it -or I'mjust playing the game to get the feel of it and will go back to play through properly later)


My preference by far is for games that don't just progress the story/characters in cutscenes, but actively involve the story and (especially) characters in the gameplay itself. (for adventure games this is usually a given, but for more action-oriented games it's less consistent -having good use of voice-acting/text-speech in-game that build on the characters while remaining pertinent to gameplay is definitely significant -it's something that X-Wing Alliance does pretty well too, or Crimson Skies for that matter -sticking to a similar genre; that's also something the Wing Commander games pushed from the start too, though WCIII brought that to another level)

StarMist
01-19-2012, 08:22 PM
I don't get this. The Genesis had something for everyone into gaming, moreso than the SNES and TG16, IMO. If you throw in the Sega CD it covers quality traditional adventure games the others lack (outside of the Duo port of Loom). It seems as "self-sufficient" as the PS and NES to me.
Lacking in RPGs and exploratory games; racing too. Yes the NES is even worse off for racers but it's so strong in every other category that I don't mind, and choosing betwixt 8 and 16 bit racers is nothing lost, 32 bit and up is what I need. Puzzle platformers too, and to a greater* extent true puzzle games---which reminds me its augmented Snake Rattle n Roll is one of the last Genny titles I need to scrutinise. ----* Not so sure about this but I have to be off. Sure you don't care either way.

Kamahl
01-19-2012, 08:41 PM
I don't get this. The Genesis had something for everyone into gaming, moreso than the SNES and TG16, IMO. If you throw in the Sega CD it covers quality traditional adventure games the others lack (outside of the Duo port of Loom). It seems as "self-sufficient" as the PS and NES to me.
All 3 are lacking.
The SNES lacks in shooters, though it has a few good ones. Axelay, R-Type 3... Huuhhh... Super Aleste is one of the weakest in the series but it's good.... The japanese version of Bio Metal, but that has a bit too much slowdow. Yeah it just isn't up to par.

The Genesis lacks in RPGs, though it has a few good ones. There's only 4 RPGs that compare to the best on the SNES and TG-16, and those are PS IV, Langrisser 2, Lunar 2 and Shining Force 2. Maybe Rent a Hero too, though I'd have to play it translated to be sure.

The TG-16 lacks in platformers, though it has a few good ones. Bonk 2 is pretty nice, and so are both Legendary Axes. Legendary Axe is more of an action game though. Pure platformers are gravely lacking.

NeoZeedeater
01-19-2012, 08:46 PM
Lacking in RPGs and exploratory games; racing too. Yes the NES is even worse off for racers but it's so strong in every other category that I don't mind, and choosing betwixt 8 and 16 bit racers is nothing lost, 32 bit and up is what I need. Puzzle platformers too, and to a greater* extent true puzzle games---which reminds me its augmented Snake Rattle n Roll is one of the last Genny titles I need to scrutinise. ----* Not so sure about this but I have to be off. Sure you don't care either way.
For RPGs, it had Phantasy Star 2-4 plus the best Western RPG on console at the time, Shadowrun. And with Sega CD there's the Lunar games. The Genesis might not be known as an RPG system but I think it's better than it gets credit for. It's kind of like when people say the SNES sucks for shooters even though it has some really strong ones like Space Megaforce and Firepower 2000.

Exploratory games on Genesis - Monster World series, The Immortal, Ecco series, Flashback, Landstalker, etc.. I don't think it's lacking.

Racing games weren't the system's best area by any means but Virtua Racing and OutRun were good. If we're counting Sega CD, Batman Returns was quite impressive.

Puzzle games - It had the best console port of Klax, the Puyo Puyo series, and Columns. You might be right about the puzzle-platformer sub-genre. I'm having a hard time thinking of them. The Lost Vikings was well made. The MD Penguin Land game wasn't as good as the older SMS one and was only a modem game anyway.

I don't think the Genesis was the best in each genre but no one console has ever been. I just think it was as well-rounded as anything else. Culturally I think it covered Asian, North American, and European game development well at the time when consoles were usually Japan-dominated.

Kamahl
01-19-2012, 09:17 PM
For RPGs, it had Phantasy Star 2-4 plus the best Western RPG on console at the time, Shadowrun. And with Sega CD there's the Lunar games. The Genesis might not be known as an RPG system but I think it's better than it gets credit for. It's kind of like when people say the SNES sucks for shooters even though it has some really strong ones like Space Megaforce and Firepower 2000.
See right there, you're overrating both genesis RPGs and SNES shooters. People here need to be more picky :p.

Shadowrun on the genesis may be the best western RPG on console at the time but that's because it essentially has no serious competition, everything else is crap. If you pack Western RPGs and JRPGs into one big package it's just above average (though very unique and original, it has issues in every area). The first lunar is only good through nostalgia glasses (or in another system). Phantasy Star 2 didn't age well, 3 is and was a disappointment.

Space Megaforce (Super Aleste) is one of the weakest in the Aleste series. I'd take both MSX games and SMS games over it easily. Firepower 2000 isn't overrated, but that's because there's no reason for it to be. It was overrated when it was called SWIV and ran at 25fps with no music.


Exploratory games on Genesis - Monster World series, The Immortal, Ecco series, Flashback, Landstalker, etc.. I don't think it's lacking.
There isn't much exploration at all in the Monster World games. The Immortal sucks. Flashback was available on other systems so it's not a plus. Landstalker isn't really an exploration game either, you need to search for things sure but it's like zelda in that regard. I'll give you Ecco and Chakan (which you didn't mention), but chakan is an aquired taste, and one that I can't get.


Racing games weren't the system's best area by any means but Virtua Racing and OutRun were good. If we're counting Sega CD, Batman Returns was quite impressive.
Before the 32-bit generation they all sucked. Even on the SNES there's really only 3 good ones. Interestingly the genesis has MORE good ones if you count the 2 batman games on the sega cd (though one is just too hard).


Puzzle games - It had the best console port of Klax, the Puyo Puyo series, and Columns. You might be right about the puzzle-platformer sub-genre. I'm having a hard time thinking of them. The Lost Vikings was well made. The MD Penguin Land game wasn't as good as the older SMS one and was only a modem game anyway.
Pretty much yeah, puggsy ain't too bad as a puzzle platformer.


I don't think the Genesis was the best in each genre but no one console has ever been. I just think it was as well-rounded as anything else. Culturally I think it covered Asian, North American, and European game development well at the time when consoles were usually Japan-dominated.
The PS1 stands tall in every genre, the NES too (well, like StarMist said, not racers, but pre 32bit they all kinda sucked). The genesis gives you stuff in every genre, but not cream of the crop in every area, and neither do the SNES and TG-16. It might offer a better balance, as the SNES only has 2 really good shooters, and the TG-16 barely has any platformers.

Thenewguy
01-19-2012, 09:56 PM
back at Thenewguy, nothing on PS compares to Sega Rally for arcade racing.
Out of games I own, V-Rally 2 is significantly better, Ridge Racer Type 4 is significantly better, Ridge Racer 64 is significantly better, Beetle Adventure Racing is significantly better, and Need For Speed 3 is significantly better.

Really, there's probably tons more, because realistically if Sega Rally had been released on PS1 or N64 in 1999 it would've been blasted, and given a 5/10 or 6/10 solely due to the track count, lack of customisation options, and lack of modes and features, so there could well be a bunch of playable racing games on those systems with extremely low scores simply due to low amounts of content (which Sega Rally suffers from anyway).

Barone
01-19-2012, 10:12 PM
@StarMist
The best Sega titles are awesome, yes. But they are just a few.
You have made several of my points so I'll not argue about that.

To say that Saturn is better than PS1 for 3D is crazy though...
Several PS1's hardware capabilities had to be "covered" using software in the Saturn for 3D games. This has a lot to do with several bad versions of multiplatform games on the Saturn: it was more difficult to develop 3D games for it than for Playstation. Most of the time, even using good engines, the 3rd party 3D games are faster and better looking in the PS1.
You can point a few exceptions, I can point dozens of lame Saturn versions.

@sheath
That point about "more hits" and stuff like that is a good one IMO.
The same for Genesis vs SNES after 1992/1993: several well known multiplatform games had better versions for the SNES and this strongly contributed for an avalanche of hype to the Nintendo side.
Doom is awesome in the PS1, and a piece of crap in the Saturn. Duke Nukem 3D is better in the Saturn, but not by an abysmal margin like Doom.
Tomb Raider looks really dark and has glitches in the Saturn, like your video comparison showed... Saturn didn't fail for the lack of good and awesome games, it failed 'cause SOA marketing sucked pretty bad, as long as several "well known" (it does not means "good") multiplatform games being worse on it, lack of localization for many of its best games, biased magazines...

I don't like the Saturn for other reasons, as I pointed before. Also, maybe 'cause I don't cry for RPG games that much to buy the system due to Shinning Force, for an example; some genres and series that I liked on the Genesis and Sega CD, IMO, are better represented in the PS1 than in the Saturn.
Sega also screwed up with other things that could have made me love Saturn: not a single classic 2D Sonic game (improved or new or whatever), no sequel to series like Outrun or Hang-On, several other good Sega titles for the Genesis sent to limbo; Namco has gone to Sony; Psygnosis and Sony fell in love; no more dozens of European games; the best Sega games on the Saturn are 3D and I don't love 3D as much as 2D... Why Capcom could release the Knights of the Round games and Sega could not release Revenge of Death Adder?... Wonderful games like Quackshot re-released without any improvement...

@Kamahl
I agree with NeoZeedeater for the most part (maybe a few titles different; never mind...).
When Genesis games are great, they are a blast to play (the music is crystal clear, tons of parallax and sprites, perfect controls, no slowdowns...); while several said "oh my God! It's awesome!" titles for the SNES suffer from bad slowdown and/or heavily muffled sounds/soundtrack and/or generic instruments in the soundtracks (95% of the games sound alike)... SNES lovers will talk about color counting, but gameplay is so more important... And in many cases the bad slowdown just kills the original pace of the games or the pleasure to be playing like a freakin' fast beast. How many early titles do play like shit due to that? Compare with the Genesis early games...
The fact that the system was released 2 years after the Genesis hurts the games library IMO, since several early Genesis games were good arcade ports from games of those years or improved versions of NES games. The style of the games also changed after Sonic and SNES release IMO: less originality and more focus on graphics quality.
The Nintendo censorship also sucks balls and several games that I like were raped modified and lost their original feeling or style. Games like Splatterhouse are unthinkable for the SNES.

Considering that, the extra types of games offered by the Sega CD not present in SNES or very poorly represented and the huge Amiga library (usually with superior versions), the Genesis offers more games that really shine and are a blast to play, in more diverse genres and with European, Japanese and American styles.

The TG16, mainly for the CD games, is awesome and has several mind blowing games. However, some genres are severely lacking and most of the games (not only the platformers) lack the fluid animation that you can find in the SNES and even more on the Genesis; sadly, the parallax is just kinda rare trick appearing here and there. Finally, many soundtracks and sfx are too 8-bitish to my taste, thanks to it's soundchip and to the fact that the CD expansion has almost no extra-hardware when compared to the Sega CD.
The Hudson ports of SNK games are awesome and make the SNES/Genesis ports look like crap for the most part though...
However, the lack of European and American support contributed for an almost Japanese-only library in several aspects, and I like the diversity found on SNES and Genesis.

StarMist
01-20-2012, 05:19 AM
For RPGs, it had Phantasy Star 2-4 plus the best Western RPG on console at the time, Shadowrun. And with Sega CD there's the Lunar games. The Genesis might not be known as an RPG system but I think it's better than it gets credit for. It's kind of like when people say the SNES sucks for shooters even though it has some really strong ones like Space Megaforce and Firepower 2000. Phantasy Star 2? Really? Thanks for pointing that out. 3 and 4 fail in different ways, and though I do count the Shining Forces they still don't add up to a lot of gaming. Besides I did state it lacked, not sucked: different things. Surging Aura would be the joker card here. Yes there's also Super Hydlide for Western variety but on the whole those games everybody likes to bring in from left field suck (here I mean suck). I'd need at least another 2 extremely good or half a dozen enjoyable RPGs to make it fit my idea of being self sufficient.


Exploratory games on Genesis - Monster World series, The Immortal, Ecco series, Flashback, Landstalker, etc.. I don't think it's lacking.My fault, despite my talk of NES and PS which should naturally have met halfway at 16 bit I was thinking more in terms of 32 bit style exploration. Also I was applying the term to games that haven't a genre ('adventure' is meaningless), fitting examples of which would be Ecco and Flashback; Landstalker whilst certainly exploratory is already covered by ARPG. And the Monster World series always slips my mind.


Racing games weren't the system's best area by any means but Virtua Racing and OutRun were good. If we're counting Sega CD, Batman Returns was quite impressive. I said this. Minus VR, but then not everybody likes everything.


Puzzle games - It had the best console port of Klax, the Puyo Puyo series, and Columns. Not a whole lot; the Puyo Puyo conversions are poor and Columns is not the best. I forget how well Bomberman's regarded (if it fits the category for you--should probably be a puzzle platformer, the platform being pushed on its back ie into overhead perspective, as would stuff like Boulder Dash on NES). One more strong IP here would've made a huge difference. Not that it's the NES forte either.



Space Megaforce (Super Aleste) is one of the weakest in the Aleste series. I'd take both MSX games and SMS games over it easily. Firepower 2000 isn't overrated, but that's because there's no reason for it to be. It was overrated when it was called SWIV and ran at 25fps with no music. Neither of you likes Area 888? Presumably Axelay was just too pat to mention. I enjoy Space Megaforce for being different from the Alestes. Over SWIV I'd certainly take Imperium and perhaps even Hyperzone.


There isn't much exploration at all in the Monster World games. So I thought of the Monster World games except that I could never stand playing them long enough to be sure.

The Immortal sucks. Flashback was available on other systems so it's not a plus.Exclusivity wasn't my point; rather the opposite given the term was 'self sufficience'. Btw The Immortal's also on NES.
>>>


The PS1 stands tall in every genre, the NES too (well, like StarMist said, not racers, but pre 32bit they all kinda sucked). The genesis gives you stuff in every genre, but not cream of the crop in every area, and neither do the SNES and TG-16. It might offer a better balance, as the SNES only has 2 really good shooters, and the TG-16 barely has any platformers.You did of course get my overall point. @ TGFX = that's the shame about it, those absent platformers. Further proof that everybody should've owned every system all at once back in the day.


Out of games I own, V-Rally 2 is significantly better, Ridge Racer Type 4 is significantly better, Ridge Racer 64 is significantly better, Beetle Adventure Racing is significantly better, and Need For Speed 3 is significantly better.
Here's what I originally said: "Though, back at Thenewguy, nothing on PS compares to Sega Rally for arcade racing." Why the hell are you bringing up N64 titles?
Also, Need for Speed is bullshit (for anybody unfamiliar V-Rally 2 is NFS V-R2) and Ridge Racer a joke. Is gameplay time content? Because RR4 is over one's first session: I beat it w/o losing a race the first time I ever played it.

Really, there's probably tons more, because realistically if Sega Rally had been released on PS1 or N64 in 1999 it would've been blasted, and given a 5/10 or 6/10 solely due to the track count, lack of customisation options, and lack of modes and features, so there could well be a bunch of playable racing games on those systems with extremely low scores simply due to low amounts of content (which Sega Rally suffers from anyway). 1999? Sega Rally was released in 1995 for the Christmas season on the Saturn. SR2 was released in 1999 just post launch for the Dreamcast. The latter, though a broken mess, did include lots of content. And speaking of broken messes that's what your post is.

kool kitty89
01-20-2012, 05:34 AM
No offense, but I think you have it backwards. PS was better at 3D than 2D. 2D is where the Saturn shined.
From a modern perspective, the PSX is actually probably a good bit better in 2D than 3D . . . it was excellent at both from a 1994 perspective (and better in both areas than the Saturn in some respects -the Saturn can do some 3D/pseudo 3D stuff better than the PSX, and the PSX can do some 2D things that the Saturn can't do as well either -and each have some things that the other can't do at all).

But, again, from a modern perspective, the PSX is far better at 2D than 3D. (ie the 2D games are much more competitive to modern 2D games than the 3D games are with modern 3D -and most average people would probably find the 2D games to have aged much better than the 3D ones)






All 3 are lacking.
The SNES lacks in shooters, though it has a few good ones. Axelay, R-Type 3... Huuhhh... Super Aleste is one of the weakest in the series but it's good.... The japanese version of Bio Metal, but that has a bit too much slowdown. Yeah it just isn't up to par.
This reminds me: someone should really test SNES games on flash carts to compare which ones were bottlenecked by slow ROM. (ie how many games would run significantly smoother by having the CPU at 3.58 MHz rather than 2.68 MHz)

IIRC, there's a few late-gen re-releases that did just that (switched to faster ROM and show significantly less slowdown), so it would definitely be interesting to see how that impacted other games. (hell, imagine of the PC Engine was stuck with 2.68 MHz or even 3.58 MHz in ROM -albeit it would still have a 7.16 MHz scratchpad to work in, unlike the 2.68 MHz access to SNES DRAM)

Thenewguy
01-20-2012, 10:07 AM
Here's what I originally said: "nothing on PS compares to Sega Rally for arcade racing" Why the hell are you bringing up N64 titles?I said Saturn was awful for racing games for that generation, so I'm covering both bases.


Also, Need for Speed is bullshit (for anybody unfamiliar V-Rally 2 is NFS V-R2)No, V-Rally 2, is V-Rally 2, I couldn't care less if the series was re-branded when it went to the US by a completely unrelated company.


and Ridge Racer a joke. Is gameplay time content? Because RR4 is over one's first session: I beat it w/o losing a race the first time I ever played it.Then you saw absolutely nothing of the game because you have to do it with all teams (hard and easy difficulty) for the unlockables, and all teams have separate story paths they follow.


1999? Sega Rally was released in 1995 for the Christmas season on the Saturn.Yes, but you're not arguing that Sega Rally was the best arcade racer in 1995, you're arguing it was the best arcade racing game of that whole generation, anything comparable to Sega Rally released in 1999 or later on PS1 would've been blasted to shit, so if you're doing a direct comparison you're going to have to check through all low rated PS1 racing games too, of which there are bloody masses.

sheath
01-20-2012, 10:19 AM
I personally love story games . . . not all story-based games mind-you, but well made ones at least . . . or quirky ones. (especially in genres I like)
That's why I really like some of the early multimedia-era stuff, from some of the quirky cases (like Return to Zork) to genuine high-budget high-quality cinema style cutscenes combined with solid gameplay/design. (like Wing Commander III)


I enjoy them okay, I played through all of the Soul Reaver games multiple times, I've played through Wing Commander on Sega CD and Colony Wars on PS1 once. Most other non-RPG story games can get my interest for a while but most of them wouldn't make a decent novel. What I really don't like is when a platform emphasizes story over gameplay. The Playstations and now Xboxes and in some respect the SNES do this. They all take a mediocre beat-em up or 3D adventure game, add in Noir/Urban Theme/Modern Warfare, and the kiddos go nuts for the game.

As for 3D Racers, Sega Rally is one of the best of all time. The physics are exquisite. In Sega Rally, if you are sliding on asphalt, and hit dirt, things change accordingly. Meaning you will slide further in the dirt than you would on asphalt, and the jump from one to the other causes the car to react accordingly. If you're powersliding on dirt and your back or front tires hit asphalt first, that end of the car gains a sudden stick to the ground, that again would occur in reality. You can't say the same for the Gran Turismo games, and I find Test Drive V-Rally and Collin McCray clunky in comparison. You could gripe about the AI being "ghost cars" but that complaint could be leveled at most 3D Racers, especially the "real driving simulator".

You could say that Sega Rally doesn't have enough cars and tracks, which would also eliminate most PS1 racers, and in which case one should really try out High Velocity on Saturn for an extended session (it levels Ridge Racer anyway). For only four tracks, I haven't gotten more challenge and replay value from any other racing game. I might have raced LeMans in Test Drive Lemans and Forza 4 as much as I have any given Sega Rally track, and I was still improving my time in Sega Rally.

That isn't even including how close a conversion Sega Rally on Saturn is with its Model 2 source.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaMh7chvrkY

Not too shabby for a system Playstation fans insist wasn't really a 3D system.

StarMist
01-20-2012, 11:20 AM
I said Saturn was awful for racing games for that generation, so I'm covering both bases.Fine. But given `99 comes into the equation you're probably ulteriorly weighing in the DC's racers, no? While you're at it you might as well define what it is in arcade racers you like. I'm not going to get into every genre with you. The N64 has a pretty heavy multiplayer advantage but don't dismiss the attraction of playing a racer earnestly alone for times.


Then you saw absolutely nothing of the game because you have to do it with all teams (hard and easy difficulty) for the unlockables, and all teams have separate story paths they follow.I don't give a shit about story in racing games. If there were hidden tracks then I did miss something but nothing that could be done to the circuit I did see could make it interesting. Plus when the game's foundation doesn't draw one in why should anybody stick around for the unlockables?


Yes, but you're not arguing that Sega Rally was the best arcade racer in 1995, you're arguing it was the best arcade racing game of that whole generation, anything comparable to Sega Rally released in 1999 or later on PS1 would've been blasted to shit, so if you're doing a direct comparison you're going to have to check through all low rated PS1 racing games too, of which there are bloody masses.There are not masses of arcade racers on the PS, PS racers mostly consist of loose sims and street racers. If you don't wish to acknowledge those distinctions go ahead and list every game you want but that's my vantage. Yes it would've been ripped in `99 for the same reasons it was by some places in `95, the graphics and smallness, however it boasts superb mechanics, a steep challenge, and a rightly moderate amount of tailoring, hence great replay value. It has some personality too which is rare for racers of any type. RR, NFS, and GT certainly don't; neither do Sega GT or even Rally Revo. An interesting source of competition would be Wipeout XL if you wanted to consider that an arcade racer (plays like a rally game with weapons---too many weapons); don't know how the SS version stacks up against the PS since completing the PS version was enough for me.

edit @ sheath = just saw your post---that bit about not finding PS games with many more tracks than Sega Rally is way off, I wouldn't be surprised were there some with over 20, especially where tracks as short as SR's first are mixed in.

Thenewguy
01-20-2012, 03:44 PM
As for 3D Racers, Sega Rally is one of the best of all time. The physics are exquisite. In Sega Rally, if you are sliding on asphalt, and hit dirt, things change accordingly.You could argue that it has the most accessible, easiest, or even most fun (subjective) handling, but on the technical side the game's physics are ridiculously simple even compared to the original Colin Mcrae, let alone Colin Mcrae 2.0.


You could say that Sega Rally doesn't have enough cars and tracks, which would also eliminate most PS1 racersMost PS1 racing games do not have three or four tracks, having three or four tracks during the later half of that generation was completely unacceptable, and was an easy way to get an immediate mediocre score.


I don't give a shit about story in racing games. If there were hidden tracks then I did miss something but nothing that could be done to the circuit I did see could make it interesting. Plus when the game's foundation doesn't draw one in why should anybody stick around for the unlockables?Essentially you just played the game on Easy mode and then gave up.


There are not masses of arcade racers on the PS, PS racers mostly consist of loose sims and street racers.Street racing is a sub genre of arcade racing. "Arcade Racers" are simply racing games with an emphasis on accessible fun and unrealistic handling (not my definition)


Yes it would've been ripped in 1999 for the same reasons it was by some places in 1995, the graphics and smallness.The graphics, and a 4 course length, and a 2-player mode are actually very good for late 1995, in fact I would go on record as saying that Sega Rally was the best home racing game available for 1995, was still amongst the top in 1996, and was still the best rally game until around 1997 at earliest, but things move on, and a lot of people analyzed and copied elements from Sega Rally, whilst improving the graphics and adding more content.

gamevet
01-21-2012, 12:34 AM
Phantasy Star 2? Really? Thanks for pointing that out. 3 and 4 fail in different ways, and though I do count the Shining Forces they still don't add up to a lot of gaming. Besides I did state it lacked, not sucked: different things. Surging Aura would be the joker card here. Yes there's also Super Hydlide for Western variety but on the whole those games everybody likes to bring in from left field suck (here I mean suck). I'd need at least another 2 extremely good or half a dozen enjoyable RPGs to make it fit my idea of being self sufficient.

Phantasy Star 2 is an all-time classic. It has beautiful music, interesting characters and huge dungeons to explore. I'd rank it up there with the 8 and 16-bit Final Fantasy games.

Don't forget Shining in the Darkness. It's a really fun RPG!



My fault, despite my talk of NES and PS which should naturally have met halfway at 16 bit I was thinking more in terms of 32 bit style exploration. Also I was applying the term to games that haven't a genre ('adventure' is meaningless), fitting examples of which would be Ecco and Flashback; Landstalker whilst certainly exploratory is already covered by ARPG. And the Monster World series always slips my mind.


Why do you consider adventure to be meaningless? Beyond Oasis is a pretty solid exploratory game, even if it is an Action RPG.

StarMist
01-21-2012, 11:13 AM
Why do you consider adventure to be meaningless? Beyond Oasis is a pretty solid exploratory game, even if it is an Action RPG.
'Adventure' is a catch-all like 'action' or 'sim' used by way of negative definition for whatever doesn't fit into another category. Not that everything must be neatly categorised: 'platformer' and 'RPG' don't say everything there is about a game. 'Exploration' for games like Flashback and Ecco would make for greater clarity. I might even apply it to Comix Zone which is very irrationally lumped into the brawler class.
@ Beyond Oasis: all ARPGs should be exploratory, any ARPG that lacks exploration is ill regarded.

profholt82
01-21-2012, 11:32 AM
^These genre labels are interesting. See, I've always thought of games in the Zelda vein, like Crusader of Centy and Beyond Oasis, to be adventure games and not really RPGs per se. But perhaps action RPG is a better term considering how broad adventure is. And these games do have some RPG elements.

Kamahl
01-21-2012, 11:34 AM
Exploration in ARPGs/Zelda Clones is much softer than the exploration in games like Super Metroid, Ecco or Flashback. Landstalker probably has the highest amount of exploration out of all oldschool ARPGs/Zelda Clones.
Comix Zone does not have any exploration to speak of. Releasing the rat to auto-search for items is not exploration. Slightly branching paths are not exploration.

sheath
01-21-2012, 12:18 PM
You could argue that it has the most accessible, easiest, or even most fun (subjective) handling, but on the technical side the game's physics are ridiculously simple even compared to the original Colin Mcrae, let alone Colin Mcrae 2.0.

Most PS1 racing games do not have three or four tracks, having three or four tracks during the later half of that generation was completely unacceptable, and was an easy way to get an immediate mediocre score.

Yeah, I should have said criticizing Sega Rally for only having four tracks also eliminates plenty of well liked PS1 racers. As for the physics argument, I don't think any of these games are aiming at realism without trying to balance that with playability. Sega Rally's powerslide physics are some of the most realistic and intuitive I have ever seen in a racing game. I learned how to drive on dirt roads, and used to drive too fast and powerslide around them just for fun, Sega Rally controls virtually the same. The only unrealistic thing I can note is that the speeds the cars are going would cause the cars to roll a lot, and of course hitting walls would destroy the car. I suppose it might be more accurate to say that Sega Rally is just more intuitive than the McCrae games and V-Rally, but I find their controls not only less intuitive but clunky/quirky as well. I probably just need to spend more time playing them to get used to the quirks.



The graphics, and a 4 course length, and a 2-player mode are actually very good for late 1995, in fact I would go on record as saying that Sega Rally was the best home racing game available for 1995, was still amongst the top in 1996, and was still the best rally game until around 1997 at earliest, but things move on, and a lot of people analyzed and copied elements from Sega Rally, whilst improving the graphics and adding more content.

This is only true if having more cars and tracks automatically makes a racing game better. If that were true then everybody would prefer Virtua Racing on Saturn to Virtua Racing Deluxe. Ridge Racer fans would LOVE High Velocity/King The Spirits if more cars and tracks mattered. It is a mentality created by the car RPG genre and is absolutely no different than RPG fans calling Beat-em ups "shallow". Sega Rally has almost an unlimited amount of replayability, not the least of which is because of the 2-player split screen, and remains one of the best 3D racers of all time for that reason.

Zoltor
01-21-2012, 12:28 PM
^These genre labels are interesting. See, I've always thought of games in the Zelda vein, like Crusader of Centy and Beyond Oasis, to be adventure games and not really RPGs per se. But perhaps action RPG is a better term considering how broad adventure is. And these games do have some RPG elements.

The main differance between Action/RPGs, and Action/Adventure games, is one has a lv system(allowing for better/more in depth char development, and the other is item based(not much char development, and pretty much all the abilities/char upgrades are done through items). There are some very rare exceptions(like tombs & Treasure technically has a lv system, yet It's still an adventure game), but 's due to the implimentation of such, and how it effects the chat, like in Tombs & Treasures, you gain levels by finding items, but yea almost always, if it has a lv system, It's some kind of RPG.

Both terms, RPGs, and Adventure imply exploration, so that's not a defining aspect between the two.

StarMist
01-21-2012, 02:06 PM
Comix Zone does not have any exploration to speak of. Releasing the rat to auto-search for items is not exploration. Slightly branching paths are not exploration.
Not exploration per se, but genres are a technical definition and so only bear on the mechanical side. Similarly, as I've said before, Contra is not a run n gun because (in the NES games at least) running isn't a viable approach, one can only dash about very short distances, jump, and grovel to survive. Trying to run along as in Metal Slug means instant death. However the genre label suits it perfectly fine so long as it isn't taken as the genre's exemplar.
What Comix Zone shares with other exploration titles (which, again, I'm terming such to distinguish them from other genres, not to point out their nontechnical similarites to games in other genres) is its sidescrolling* screen to screen element. Sure there's no backtracking, yet as in games such as Flashback one does progress a screen at a time rather than upon continuously scrolling screen. (*Sidescrolling as in planar, in the platformer style, so as not to confuse 'screen to screen' with point and click games). Also the puzzles do count regardless whether they're beneath one's intelligence. DJ Boy is still a brawler despite its miserable three or four attacks and suckage in every other possible way.

Another classification I dislike is 'rail shooter'. These games usually allow quite generous freedom of movement. Rail shooters are Chaos Control, Lodestar, and that bonus game at the Golden Saucer Station of FF7.

@ Sega Rally et al = I investigated the Colin Mcrae games. Apparently they have 80+ tracks. Are these individual or are they modules, ie 'tracks' 1 through 5 consisting of sections of a single track 6? If individual that would be impressive, though for me their quality remains to be seen. On the other hand so enormous a number of tracks impairs the appeal of a rally game which is time trial racing. Too many tracks to master.

Kamahl
01-21-2012, 02:08 PM
I see what you mean, yeah brawler isn't the most appropriate genre for Comix Zone either. It's pretty unique.

kool kitty89
01-22-2012, 06:58 AM
^These genre labels are interesting. See, I've always thought of games in the Zelda vein, like Crusader of Centy and Beyond Oasis, to be adventure games and not really RPGs per se. But perhaps action RPG is a better term considering how broad adventure is. And these games do have some RPG elements.

The main differance between Action/RPGs, and Action/Adventure games, is one has a lv system(allowing for better/more in depth char development, and the other is item based(not much char development, and pretty much all the abilities/char upgrades are done through items). There are some very rare exceptions(like tombs & Treasure technically has a lv system, yet It's still an adventure game), but 's due to the implimentation of such, and how it effects the chat, like in Tombs & Treasures, you gain levels by finding items, but yea almost always, if it has a lv system, It's some kind of RPG.

Both terms, RPGs, and Adventure imply exploration, so that's not a defining aspect between the two.
Some non-RPGs have level/experience elements too though, but many of those aspects are parts of totally action-oriented games too. (like expanding hp/health capacity, upgrading strength/magic/armor/etc -aside from buying/finding/earning specific items)

There's a fine line between action-RPG and a true adventure game (and some adventure games or action-adventure games do have RPG-like elements too, even actual level based skills in some cases), but to me, a true adventure game is defined by the emphasis on exploration, puzzle solving, finding quest items, and flexible realtime combat in open 2D or 3D space (aside from boss/miniboss battles -though in some cases you can retreat from those too).

So the 3D Zelda games, Tomb Raider, and Metroid Prime would all be 3D action-adventure games. While text or point&click or roaming graphic adventure games (namely on PCs) are certainly adventure games, but usually not action-adventure. (by roaming, I mean more like the Lucas/Sierra games where you control the player rather than using text or mouse commands -there's hybrids of all those too)





I enjoy them okay, I played through all of the Soul Reaver games multiple times, I've played through Wing Commander on Sega CD and Colony Wars on PS1 once. Most other non-RPG story games can get my interest for a while but most of them wouldn't make a decent novel. What I really don't like is when a platform emphasizes story over gameplay. The Playstations and now Xboxes and in some respect the SNES do this. They all take a mediocre beat-em up or 3D adventure game, add in Noir/Urban Theme/Modern Warfare, and the kiddos go nuts for the game.
For me, the quality of the story istelf isn't as important as the overall premise and (especially) having engaging characters to get you more into the game. (be it campy, creepy, serious, etc, any other mood/tone)

I prefer games that actually portray the characters in realtime (like in radio chatter in flight sims), but character development in cutscenes can be interesting too. (doing both is much better IMO)
Though some games use cutscenes to great effect too. (Silent Hill jumps to mind -especially 2 and 3)

The point isn't to make you feel like you're playing out a movie, but being immersed in the game/universe. (like a really good book or -less often IMO- a really good movie -or TV show- that has you involved with the characters)

Many of my favorite games do just that, get me really involved with the game itself. (good fast-paced action games do that in another way -raw adrenaline and sheer focus on intense on-screen action, but some games even do both -like fast-paced action games with an interesting story and engaging characters -again like some of the classic space sims, and some FPSs for that matter . . . or more so for more hybrid adventure-oriented games with FPS elements; and sometimes it's not about the characters either, but the overall environment and world and perhaps uncovering long-abandoned evidence or such and building on a plot more in solitude -those kinds of games often tended to creep me out personally, even if not horror themed -including Myst but Metroid Prime would even fall into this category, and they can be really good too, but I personally prefer games with more NPC interaction -and perhaps more light-hearted, or at least with some lighter elements even with dark/serious or truly tragic elements mixed in -death of a comrade/loved-one, loss of one's home, etc, etc -X-Wing Alliance does that quite well IMO, several of the Wing Commander games do too, among others -I can speak more directly about XWA though, since I've played that through from start to finish)

Good, fun, simple arcade-style games can be great too though, and some genres/subgenres really don't benefit from a story. (like most puzzle games or racing games -though some sort of premise can be interesting without going into a full story)

And, for me at least, it seems like I tend to play mostly the simpler/faster-paced "fun" sorts of games when I'm with friends (since most multiplayer genres fit that description -especially for retro gaming . . . and the multiplayer modes of games that do have more complexity still tend to cut much of that out -aside from main-game co-op campaigns), but for single-player stuff I often prefer the deeper/more complex types of games. (there's also the exception of back-seat gaming, and in that case I've definitely spent a ton of time watching friends/family play through complex/story-based games -especially watching my dad as a kid playing PC adventure games, the SNES and N64 Zelda games, Silent Hill 2 and 3, among others)




Then again, I should note that (ever since I was a little kid) I've spent a lot more time reading novels/short stories and watching TV shows (and to lesser extent movies) than I have playing video games, and do enjoy a good drama (though preferably with sci-fi/fantasy/supernatural elements . . . some of the crime/medical/technical themed dramas or comedy-dramas are cool too though).
And that includes some pretty campy ones as well as some really well made ones too. (and some cult-classic stuff that may fit either or both of those categories depending on perspective) I've been watching quite a bit of that stuff since I was a little kid (in addition to various cartoons on broadcast TV -never had cable- though a few of the good 90s cartoons were pretty complex story-wise too), and it wasn't/isn't just current stuff either, I've always been exposed to older TV shows and movies a lot (if not more so than modern/current stuff), including watching pretty much the entire original Doctor Who series. (albeit not all at once -PBS was showing mostly the 70s and 80s ones in the early 90s, but they later shifted back to the very start and went through the entire series -save the lost/missing episodes- and we ended up taping some of that to watch later too)

So that all probably has something to do with my interest in story-based games too.

Lan Di
01-22-2012, 08:32 AM
I think the Sega Saturn didn't appeal to the masses for several reasons.

The Saturn launch was a disaster. If memory serves me correctly the Saturn launched in May 1995 for $399.00 with a gimped Virtua Fighter for a pack in. The launch titles were a shoddy port of Daytona USA, Panzer Dragoon (incredible game BTW), and Clockwork Knight. I actually got one at launch and bought Panzer Dragoon. I didnt like how Daytona USA was rushed out by Sega. Sega basically squeezed a Sega Model 2 game into a Saturn, and they hoped no one would notice. I never even bought it because compared to the arcade version is was a broken game. Bug! was an awful excuse for a "place holder" mascot. The jumping physics were a nightmare and the basic controls were horrendous. The fake 3D was a joke.

The PS1 launched on 9/9/95 for $299.00 and launched with Battle Arena Toshinden, ESPN Extreme Games, Kileak - The DNA Imperative, NBA Jam Tournament Edition, Power Serve 3D Tennis, Rayman, Ridge Racer, The Raiden Project, Total Eclipse Turbo. Sony really pushed for almost every game to be in polygonal and 3D. Sony had the better 3D hardware, and that was very attractive to most gamers. Most gamers I knew back then were highly impressed by Sony's offerings. Sony came out swinging with games like Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, Final Fantasy 7. By the time Sega managed to get Resident Evil and Tomb raider for the Saturn, it was already too late. A substantial amount of of Sega gamers had already jumped ship for Sony. Sega tried to rally back with aggressive advertising and bringing back the Sega scream. The arcade age was dying fast and Sega was far too dependent on the arcade games. Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, and The House of the Dead (another shoddy arcade port) were not effective. Tekken and Tekken 2 were actually perfect arcade ports, unlike VF2. No one even cared about Fighting Vipers or Fighter Megamix.

And then there is the N64. I remember being at a Toys R Us once and they three Kiosks. One for Mario 64, Nights and crash Bandicoot. Everyone was lining up to play Mario 64. No one even touched Nights.

And then there was money. Sega was handling 6 other systems at the same time. Sega just could not financially afford to compete properly.

The Saturn had so many great and exciting games. Too bad most of them were release in Japan only.

I really love my Saturn. A few notable gems that I own and recommend...

Policenauts
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Dungeons and Dragons Collection.
Guardian Heroes
Galactic Attack
Skeleton Warriors
Duke Nukem 3D
Iron Storm
Albert Odyssey
Marvel Superheroes vs SF
Panzer Dragoon Zwei
Shinning The Holy Ark
Shinobi Legions
Quake

And the list goes on and on....

TVC 15
01-22-2012, 03:14 PM
I think the Sega Saturn didn't appeal to the masses for several reasons.

The Saturn launch was a disaster. If memory serves me correctly the Saturn launched in May 1995 for $399.00 with a gimped Virtua Fighter for a pack in. The launch titles were a shoddy port of Daytona USA, Panzer Dragoon (incredible game BTW), and Clockwork Knight. I actually got one at launch and bought Panzer Dragoon. I didnt like how Daytona USA was rushed out by Sega. Sega basically squeezed a Sega Model 2 game into a Saturn, and they hoped no one would notice. I never even bought it because compared to the arcade version is was a broken game. Bug! was an awful excuse for a "place holder" mascot. The jumping physics were a nightmare and the basic controls were horrendous. The fake 3D was a joke.


Agreed, Daytona really was gimped, it certainly played like the real deal but sadly as it has always been first impressions mean everything, an attract demo of Daytona USA running side by side with Ridge Racer and you'd believe which was the better machine. Sega in a lot of ways played straight into Sony's hand, not just with the early launch (which no doubt rushed the development of the key western launch titles) but with a title begging to be compared with the nearest competition. Perhaps Sega would have done better not just with a later release date, but also with titles that didn't bare direct comparison with Sony's titles. Your essentially emphasising that you offer something different to the competition, Panzer Dragoon could have been that title, but it lacked polish.


The PS1 launched on 9/9/95 for $299.00 and launched with Battle Arena Toshinden, ESPN Extreme Games, Kileak - The DNA Imperative, NBA Jam Tournament Edition, Power Serve 3D Tennis, Rayman, Ridge Racer, The Raiden Project, Total Eclipse Turbo. Sony really pushed for almost every game to be in polygonal and 3D. Sony had the better 3D hardware, and that was very attractive to most gamers.

Historically Sega's launch title seemed really like a false start, just over the horizon at the end of the year was some of the Saturn's highlights that really to me subjectively stated that the Saturn was really here, but the market rarely affords a second chance, despite the mindshare VF2, Virtua Cop and Sega Rally won back for Sega.


gamers I knew back then were highly impressed by Sony's offerings. Sony came out swinging with games like Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, Final Fantasy 7. By the time Sega managed to get Resident Evil and Tomb raider for the Saturn, it was already too late. A substantial amount of of Sega gamers had already jumped ship for Sony. Sega tried to rally back with aggressive advertising and bringing back the Sega scream. The arcade age was dying fast and Sega was far too dependent on the arcade games. Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, and The House of the Dead (another shoddy arcade port) were not effective. Tekken and Tekken 2 were actually perfect arcade ports, unlike VF2. No one even cared about Fighting Vipers or Fighter Megamix.

I don't really agree with this statement, you seemed to have made up your own narrative history, mixing up events, skipping some and making your own timeline, I won't doubt that Sony really wowed audiences and eventually won over the press and the mainstream as the console to hedge your bets on. Most titles early on for both systems relied heavily on arcade titles, or arcade like experiences, there where of course niche titles and the first tentative steps toward longer more ambitious adventure titles in 96', overall both systems had a good mix of titles and covered a lot of bases early on.

As an aside The House of the Dead, agreed was a pretty terrible conversion but it came late in the consoles lifetime, it shouldn't really be mentioned in the same breath as Sega Rally or VF2, games Sega's AM divisions put a lot of effort into. Tomb Raider was release earlier in the UK by a month, and released on the same day in the US as the playstation version. Agreed, Resident Evil was late and didn't play to the consoles strengths. Final Fantasy 7 is a whole other issue and was really the moment the PSX took off and pushed past the Saturn in Japan, and was massively successful in the west.

Where Sony was successful was tapping in current cultural trends, in the UK and Europe they were perhaps the first company to give the region its own Identity, I can't comment on the USA but from what I can gather, they also there appropriated there image. This was no longer imported American bastardisations of Japanese titles, with a pallet swap and some terrible mid-80's fantasy Comic art on the front, dumped at 50hz (crass generalisations aside) games like Tomb Raider hit in the mid-90's when Britain was in the middle of a regurgitated sense of 60's style cool Brittania cultural pride, Lara Croft was a mascot for British game development, likewise Wipeout tapped into club culture and matched fashion sensibilities. Sony really worked hard to tie titles in with mass culture, but also make gaming much more tailored to each region.

VF2, Sega Rally, and Virtua Cop or the big "3" gave a major spike in popularity early on for the Saturn, Sega Rally became the fastest selling CD game software in the UK upon its release and was a big chance for Sega to rebuild PR, 96' was fraught with problems however due to dwindling cash reserves, regarding your next quote Nights was intended to have a massive advertising push, but it did not materialise. Nintendo on the other hand had very few titles to release but also had Mario 64 to really focus on, something to differentiate from the competition. Nights could have been a sleeper hit but it was never going to be against the hyperbole behind Nintendo's premier mascot not least with its "revolutionary" switch to free-roaming 3D gameplay, apparently the future according to the press.

Nights was a great game but it wasn't the right game to push the Saturn. That said heavier advertisement would have really helped, and helped the Saturn in general, most of Sega's adverts during the Saturn's period where IMO atrocious and by all accounts from everyone on this board who have either seen what little was aired, made little dent in peoples consciousness. ANd thats the people who did see them, a great majority didn't. I think there is something bigger at play though, similarity in the USA where the Saturn was plagued with distribution problems, very few people over (casual gamers) here remember the Saturn, due to a mix of diminishing sales but also poor marketing.


And then there is the N64. I remember being at a Toys R Us once and they three Kiosks. One for Mario 64, Nights and crash Bandicoot. Everyone was lining up to play Mario 64. No one even touched Nights.


And then there was money. Sega was handling 6 other systems at the same time. Sega just could not financially afford to compete properly.

The Saturn had so many great and exciting games. Too bad most of them were release in Japan only.

I really love my Saturn. A few notable gems that I own and recommend...

I do agree, Sega's finance situation was precarious and Arcade Revenue was drying up, especially when Sega was gearing up and needed that money. But Sega could have handled the situation much better, the fought fierce competition in the mid-90's but there biggest issue was being weakened by poor managerial decisions, everything counted. I've often thought Sega where often a bit too bullish with direct competition with Sony, but those comparisons where inevitable, Sony even admitted in the book: "The Revolutionaries at Sony" that they consistently pushed the press to make comparisons between the two platforms, again Sega needed a better handle on the press and there own PR however.

If anything recently I've been thinking, I actually believe Sega's issue with the Saturn was not that it had too little time, from that presupposed moment they saw Sony's tech specs in late 93' to the apparent Saturn redesign, but that they had too much time. A shorter-time frame prior to Sony hitting the market would have meant perhaps they would have considered more options before any release of the Saturn.

Stronger late gen-genesis/megadrive revenues could have been focused on until the Saturn was either farmed out or made bug free. The big 3 of late 95/early96' is emblematic of the Sega Saturn, great titles too late when it really mattered, after the presses opinions had begun forming. Exasperated by Sega rushing, with a console that really needed time and care to develop for.

The Sega Saturn is really a terrible metaphor (ahem) for a a glacial Swedish drama, to develop for it you've got to loosen up and take your time, Sega's management however was a Hollywood studio getting hold of said Swedish script and trying to rewrite and green-light it as a mee-too mid-90's copycat disaster movie.

Lan Di
01-22-2012, 07:19 PM
I don't really agree with this statement, you seemed to have made up your own narrative history, mixing up events, skipping some and making your own timeline, I won't doubt that Sony really wowed audiences and eventually won over the press and the mainstream as the console to hedge your bets on. Most titles early on for both systems relied heavily on arcade titles, or arcade like experiences, there where of course niche titles and the first tentative steps toward longer more ambitious adventure titles in 96', overall both systems had a good mix of titles and covered a lot of bases early on.



Well according to your profile you are from the UK. Things were quite different in the US. Saturn owners never got any respect here. The Playstation brand was a juggernaut. The two Tekken games were perfect arcade ports, as well as Mortal Kombat 3. Sega got the Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 as an exclusive and that helped Sega, but again, it was a 2-D game. The Saturn never had that luxury with perfectly ported 3-D polygonal arcade games, correct me if I'm wrong. The Saturn had perfect arcade ports of 2-D games but most were never released outside of Japan. The mid 90s was the beginning of the end for the arcade business for the US. Many arcades in my area were closing down and were extinct by 2000. Sony knew this and concentrated on 3-D polygonal games knowing that it could out perform the Saturn capabilities. You are correct about Tomb Raider being released on both systems at the same time. An error on my part.


Sony even admitted in the book: "The Revolutionaries at Sony" that they consistently pushed the press to make comparisons between the two platforms, again Sega needed a better handle on the press and there own PR however.

I would not doubt that. Sega did the same by comparing Sonic to Super Mario World and that worked in Sega's favor. The Saturn's FMV and 3-D was piss poor compared to Sony's capabilities, and the press exploited that. By the time Sega started to master 3-D (Panzer Dragoon Saga and Burning Rangers) it was too late.

However I will say this. I believe Quake and Duke Nuken 3D looked and played better on the Saturn. Policenauts for the Saturn ran at 30fps and Playstation version ran at 15fps, but neither released outside of Japan.

Kamahl
01-22-2012, 07:35 PM
The Saturn's FMV and 3-D was piss poor compared to Sony's capabilities, and the press exploited that.
Not really, if the games use a lot of quads and scaled sprites then the saturn can actually put quite a few more polygons onscreen than the PS1. Working with quads is a lot tougher than triangles though, and most developers just put 2 points in the same position, making the quad a triangle. This of course gave the PS1 a big advantage. Transparencies were another area where the PS1 was a lot better. Even for 2D stuff the easier to work with transparencies meant that direct PS1 ports of 2D games would end up shitty on the saturn, like what happened with symphony of the night. There's no reason for that game not to have transparencies on par with the PS1 through the VDP2.

Lan Di
01-22-2012, 08:26 PM
Agreed. Symphony of the night was horrible on the Saturn. It was a lazy port with mediocre extra levels. Princess Crown is a perfect example of 2D platforming action adventure done right on the Saturn.

Kamahl
01-22-2012, 08:30 PM
Agreed. Symphony of the night was horrible on the Saturn. It was a lazy port with mediocre extra levels. Princess Crown is a perfect example of 2D platforming action adventure done right on the Saturn.
Damn right.

mick_aka
01-22-2012, 08:39 PM
I'm rather glad to not be the only one that thought Symphony of the Night on the Saturn was a poor port, it's an opinion very few other Saturn enthusiasts seem to hold.

sheath
01-22-2012, 08:43 PM
The Saturn version of Symphony is a bad port. There is no excuse for the slowdown, the dithered transparency, or the long load times that fail to utilize the load segments at_all. Since the source material doesn't seem a generation above a late gen SNES game to me there is really no excuse for these issues. This is one of many reasons that I think Konami is an overrated developer.

NeoZeedeater
01-22-2012, 08:47 PM
It's a disappointing port overall but it's worth having if you already own the PS1 original and you like playing as Maria for something different.

sheath
01-22-2012, 08:54 PM
I did end up keeping the Saturn version and selling the PS1 version, mainly because I got the Saturn game for $30 and liked playing as Richter (without a code?). The S-Video on my Saturn was also a LOT clearer than the S-Video on my PS1 at the time, later generation PS1s and my PS2 eliminate that advantage though.

kool kitty89
01-23-2012, 05:10 AM
Not really, if the games use a lot of quads and scaled sprites then the saturn can actually put quite a few more polygons onscreen than the PS1. Working with quads is a lot tougher than triangles though, and most developers just put 2 points in the same position, making the quad a triangle. This of course gave the PS1 a big advantage. Transparencies were another area where the PS1 was a lot better. Even for 2D stuff the easier to work with transparencies meant that direct PS1 ports of 2D games would end up shitty on the saturn, like what happened with symphony of the night. There's no reason for that game not to have transparencies on par with the PS1 through the VDP2.
Umm, I don't see how this could be possible. The Saturn's VDP1 is slower than the PSX GPU, and the SH2s are slower than the GTE of the PSX too, so raw 3D math and polygon drawing are inherently superior on the Saturn. (in terms of raw quad vs triangle rendering counts) The PSX is also very fast at rendering 2D scaled sprites (faster than the Saturn -and faster than drawing 3D textures), so that wouldn't be an advantage either. (and many PSX games cut back on CPU/GTE/GPU overhead by using 2D scaled textures)

The main advantage the Saturn would have is in VDP2 resource (PSX GPU bandwidth would get eaten up using that) and possibly for gouruad shading, though I'm not sure the Saturn is actually any faster at g-shading than the PSX. (and anything gained in speed must be weighed against the limited capabilities of additive lighting effects -since the Saturn doesn't support multiplicative lighting, thus limiting lighting/shading effects substantially -compared to PSX/N64/Jaguar/3DO/highcolor PC -and some 256 color renderers too, namely those catering to linear light/shade gradients for shading LUTs)

The worst case is for flat shaded polygons and cached textures (which the PSX handles at 66 Mpix/s -rasterization overhead aside) while sustained texture mapping is a more modest gap over the Saturn at 33 Mpix/s (g-shaded polygons are similar to that iirc), though actual rasterization speed would vary. (the larger the polygons, the more drawingis fillrate limited, the smaller the polygons, the more they're rasterization limited -and then there's 3D math limits and CPU overhead for game logic, Z-sorting, etc -though the former will always be faster than the Saturn and the latter will usually be faster too due to SH2 overhead for 3D math -and, to some extent, limited real-world performance of dual CPUs)


That's not to say that the Saturn couldn't reasonably keep up with the PSX in 3D, but I don't see how it could beat the PSX in polygon and/or sprite drawing speed.

kool kitty89
01-23-2012, 06:35 AM
This is obviously going off topic (I forget the most recent thread this was addressed in ;) -maybe the 5th gen tech one), but:


I do agree, Sega's finance situation was precarious and Arcade Revenue was drying up, especially when Sega was gearing up and needed that money. But Sega could have handled the situation much better, the fought fierce competition in the mid-90's but there biggest issue was being weakened by poor managerial decisions, everything counted. I've often thought Sega where often a bit too bullish with direct competition with Sony, but those comparisons where inevitable, Sony even admitted in the book: "The Revolutionaries at Sony" that they consistently pushed the press to make comparisons between the two platforms, again Sega needed a better handle on the press and there own PR however.
Yes, lots of problems/unfortunate decisions . . . from putting out too much hardware and often relatively costly/complex hardware at that -not just modest upgrades/on-cart hardware. (look at the overall history from SG-1000 to Saturn -unless you ignore add-ons, the Saturn to DC was the longest gap ever and still only 4 years)

But ignoring all the stuff of the SMS era and early MD era, Sega had problems with trying to do too many different things at once without a coherent/collaborative plan that catered to all regions needs and also catered to stability in the company overall. (Kalinske's heavy spending was necessary to a point to make the Genesis as successful as it was, but I can't help but think they invested too heavily too soon in some areas -taking too much risk for things that weren't immediately necessary on top of spending heavily for immediate investments like manufacturing and marketing)
The Saturn and 32x issue was an obvious mess, perpetuating Sega's trend to push too much hardware too soon, but adding several new twists in this case (SoA being charged with the 32x, North America having a substantially successful platform already installed on the market, and the 32x and Saturn being released simultaneously -vs the at least 2 year gap in all other major Sega hardware releases -Mk.I, Mk.III, MD, MCD)
Plus you had the 32x as an add-on and the Saturn as a complex and expensive design. (forcing them to either price high or take bigger losses than the competition -especially with Sony's vertical integration- and also complicating software development -heavily exacerbated by Sega's problematic documentation and tools -which had already been problematic on the MD, CD, and 32x, but got comparatively worse with more complex hardware -since greater detail and accuracy in translation is needed, the MCD had already been significantly more problematic than the MD for that reason and the 32x avoided many of those problems by being developed in the US and -perhaps more so- using very basic hardware -and having good support for SH2 documentation)

And then came the mess on the software end with in-house Saturn publishing not catering to some major genres and franchises.
And then the mess of the launch (screwing up PR/contracts with developers and retailers -and consumers, wasting hype that could have been built up towards a fall/holiday-oriented release, bad price, fewer/poorer games, etc, etc)
And that botched launched wasted both resources and harmed PR in the US . . . setting them of for an even steeper uphill battle that christmas. (less resources for marketing, more resources needed to make up for the botched start, etc -and then the issues with supporting/marketing their many other platforms -including the mainstream 16-bit market, which was already complicated by the MCD and 32x)
Overall marketing suffered across the board due to those problems, and on top of the Saturn problems, the late-gen 16-bit market was almost certainly crippled by the mess. (ie reduced profits and revenue compared to what the Genesis had potential for -it could still have been quite competitive against the SNES)



If anything recently I've been thinking, I actually believe Sega's issue with the Saturn was not that it had too little time, from that presupposed moment they saw Sony's tech specs in late 93' to the apparent Saturn redesign, but that they had too much time. A shorter-time frame prior to Sony hitting the market would have meant perhaps they would have considered more options before any release of the Saturn.

Stronger late gen-genesis/megadrive revenues could have been focused on until the Saturn was either farmed out or made bug free. The big 3 of late 95/early96' is emblematic of the Sega Saturn, great titles too late when it really mattered, after the presses opinions had begun forming. Exasperated by Sega rushing, with a console that really needed time and care to develop for.
OK, I could agree with some of this, but the scenario needs more context . . . namely what year you'd want to start making changes.
Ideally (in terms of maximum stability and profitability) they probably should have started doing things differently from around 1990 onward . . . the MCD shouldn't have been released or should have been designed as a much simpler/lower cost system aimed specifically at cutting into NEC's market sector in Japan with correspoinding Japanese software support to really push that (and perhaps spreading to a niche market in the US -maybe even more successful than the real MCD due to lower price and better JP support).

Then, design the Saturn different from the start, involve the western divisions in the design and development (if not contributing to actual engineering, at least in terms of desired features -from the developers' perspectives- and price point -from management/marketing perspective) . . . and making compromises to cater to each region proportionally to their needs (within practical time/resource limitations of the engineers). Outsourcing R&D could be a possibility too, though not a necessity.

Actual release date could vary, but 1994 fit very well for the Japanese end . . . had the MCD been a big success, a 1995 JP and 1996 US/EU release probably would have worked out well. (with correspondingly more advanced/polished hardware -and software)

The Genesis (and CD) could thus have been carefully supported and transitioned into a budget market position late-gen (probably shifting during 1996 and 1997) with new software tapering off by 1997 and re-releases and ever cost-cut hardware being marketed by Sega through the end of the 90s. (if the CD had become more than a niche product, it could have fared very well as a budget system in the late 90s -hardware costs dropping dramatically, including CD drive, and media being very cheap and flexible to manufacture)


-However, in the context of late 1993, Sega's options were far more limited. They already had the MCD and MD (etc) on the market as-is with all corresponding investments and management decisions made (for better or worse) as well as a lot of resources put into Saturn R&D with most of the hardware set in stone by that point. Any redesigns would need to be relatively modest (like change in CPU and/or RAM configuration -or some other off the shelf parts, but almost certainly not any major modifications to the custom chips -the emphasis would have been on bug-fixes, fine tuning, and such by that point).
So the only other option would be the massive waste of dumping the Saturn and staring over . . . and given the time that would take, the only practical option (to at least manage a 1995 release) would have been to license an existing design in development by a 3rd party. (or going with a CPU-grunt-centric design with relatively basic custom hardware -sort of like an amped up 32x- . . . or maybe building on select areas of the Saturn's architex\cture -like building around a faster and/or more advanced VDP1)

But, to make this scenario simpler, lets say they did stick with the existing Saturn design (more or less) and also stuck to the (quite successful) 1994 Japanese launch. There's still the potential for some tweaks like CPU and/or RAM changes (like cutting back on the SH1 RAM, removing the low-RAM, etc -the dual SH2s was probably a good move for performance though, at least short of a faster SH2 -which would have been limited by the .8 micron 5V chips Hitachi was using . . . though pushing them a bit faster -perhaps close to 40 MHz- might have been practical depending on yields -actual design limits on chips using similar .8 micron 2-metal processes tended to be 50 MHz, but that was the absolute design limit -before the chip risked self-destruction- and actual limits of stability would tend to be somewhat less than that -one of the few exceptions to the 50 MHz/5V limit was with the .8 micron bipolar-CMOS hybrid used in Intel's Pentium 66 and some i486DX2-66 models, and even then the chips tended to run very hot weren't especially reliable)

But, assuming the Saturn was kept 100% the same on the hardware end and JP release date, there's still several other factors:
documentation/tool support for the Saturn (both in terms of making them available to SoA/SoE and getting them properly translated and packaged into SDKs for western software houses -as well as investing in developing a decent graphics API as soon as possible)
-The 32x issue . . . ie don't initiate that design and focus on the MD and MCD alone instead (and Saturn moving forward) . . . or maybe release a low-cost SVP cart module (ie no more than $50 -or $100 with game pack-in-), or if they really wanted to get into the lower-end in the nextgen and/or push that early in the west, then something like the Jupiter would at least have been far better than the 32x. (no CD drive/subsystem, no low RAM, fully hardware/software forwards compatible with the Saturn, but much cheaper -perhaps matching the Jaguar's 1994 price point- and, in terms of forwards compatibility, be able to be expanded to full Saturn spec via a reasonably priced add-on module released around the same time as the full Saturn, and allow all Jupiter carts to run on Saturn)

Or, even with just the Saturn alone, they could have simply pushed for better software/tool support and focused a proper launch in fall of 1995 in the US. (no 32x, continued MCD and MD support shifting into late-gen marketing mode, better marketing, better in-house software support, and better distribution/retail support)
Even with the complex and expensive design, Sega still would have been much better off and the Saturn, MD, MCD, and GG all likely would have fared much better than they did in the mid/late 90s. (Sega would have had taken bigger losses on hardware than the competition -if pricing competitively, but their PR/brand would have been much stronger, in-house software and 3rd party publishing would have been much stronger and much more profitable, etc)

The biggest problems came from the mess of management problems and conflicts in the 1993-96 period, and with those issues reasonably addressed, the Saturn (while far from ideal for Sega or the overall market in the mid 90s) would have been good enough to allow Sega to be reasonably competitive on the mainstream 32-bit market in all regions. (as it was, in sprite of their struggles, the Saturn already ended up with a very decent overall software library compared to the competition up through 1996 at least -perhaps into 1997- . . . and with the right management/marketing/PR behind it from day 1, it would certainly have had better and more plentiful software all around -and much more later on too- while having the necessary consumer/retail appeal to drive it to real, volume mass-market success in all major regions)


And a note on the "Jupiter" issue . . . you could argue that such a system would have greatly increased the shift to the 32-bit market in the US (due to low price point and early release by a huge brand name), but the counter-argument would be for the long-term trade-offs. (potential for a consistently cheaper console than all of the competition, but a split market for the Saturn, and a shift to the Saturn entirely meaning loss of that lower-priced niche . . . albeit it could cater to different market segments that weren't being addressed at all at the time, leaving the Saturn as the high-end system until it really became affordable around 1997/98 -with the MD still being left to cover the bottom-end budget market at a considerably lower price point than the Jupiter for both hardware and software -and jupiter-saturn ports would be relatively straightfoward too)


The Sega Saturn is really a terrible metaphor (ahem) for a a glacial Swedish drama, to develop for it you've got to loosen up and take your time, Sega's management however was a Hollywood studio getting hold of said Swedish script and trying to rewrite and green-light it as a mee-too mid-90's copycat disaster movie.
The problem is that the Saturn really wasn't rushed overall . . . certain key areas were rushed (namely the US launch), but the overall design almost certainly took several years of planning an engineering to accomplish. (and it's not really rushed in design . . . though also very costly for a practical home console and with many of the resources going to features that didn't benefit overall performance enough to merit them -reducing nominal cost effectiveness considerably . . . VDP2's 2D emphasis or VDP1's multi-bus design are at least somewhat excusable and reasonable from Sega's perspective in the early 90s, but the rest of the system still ends up being a complex and expensive mess -the overbuilt CD-ROM and sound sybsystems were big wastes that added a lot of cost to little/no relative benfit -and while very feature-rich in some areas, the Sound system ironically lacked hardware acceleration/support for sample decompression)
The 32x's hardware was certainly rushed (about 6 months of development), but that's another story entirely. ;)

But again, the hardware design wasn't the deciding factor for Sega. (it didn't really help, but it wasn't unworkable either)

The problems with software tools also weren't really due to being rushed . . . more an overall management problem and something Sega had been doing for a while by that point. (it just got increasingly problematic as hardware became more complex and the need for clear, complete, and reasonably translated documentation was important -let alone out of the box programming libraries -which was a non-issue for the SH2s, though more problematic for graphics . . . support for 3rd party middleware and custom APIs were also exacerbated/limited by the limited documentation)

sheath
01-23-2012, 10:37 AM
I wasn't able to find any RE docs the last time I looked (several years ago) but I was able to find MIPS performance for the PS1 and Saturn. The Dual SH2s are rated at 50 MIPS, but I would assume that is full bore with both SH2s working on unique calculations rather than simple Master-Slave. This was also back when it was thought that the DSP could assist in polygon calculations, but I didn't find guesses on how that would affect the system. I also marked down that the PS1 CPU was rated at 30 MIPS and with the Geometry Engine the system had a max of 66 MIPS.

I've always considered MIPS comparisons somewhat senseless and more of a marketing thing, but it is an established standard too. It oddly adds up to what Kool Kitty is asserting though, and the PS1 would come out about 25% better in raw capability.

What I don't get is why the Saturn's VDP2 capabilities are so easily dismissed, or why the dual frame buffers amounting to 34% more Video RAM in the Saturn than in the PS1 is not to the Saturn's benefit.

kool kitty89
01-23-2012, 05:15 PM
I wasn't able to find any RE docs the last time I looked (several years ago) but I was able to find MIPS performance for the PS1 and Saturn. The Dual SH2s are rated at 50 MIPS, but I would assume that is full bore with both SH2s working on unique calculations rather than simple Master-Slave. This was also back when it was thought that the DSP could assist in polygon calculations, but I didn't find guesses on how that would affect the system. I also marked down that the PS1 CPU was rated at 30 MIPS and with the Geometry Engine the system had a max of 66 MIPS.
MIPS ratings don't tell the whole story either . . . dual CPUs are never going to reach that peak (and at best are probably going to be closer to 1.7x as fast as a single CPU -more often closer to 1.5x, depending on the specific programming requirements and optimization -especially limited with old/simple CPUs with only small L1 caches and no additional buffering to facilitate highly parallel processing -albeit, slaving 1CPU to dedicated DSP-like tasks -like crunching 3D math- would be one of the better cases for making the most of the CPU time)

The other issue is that the MIPS ratings (of a single CPU) don't reflect the performance needed for 3D math (multiplication and division) which, while still fast on the SH2s, isn't as fast as the peak sustained MIPS rating given (and those operations can be significantly slower than the instructions being performed most often in standard such benchmarks). The GTE OTOH is a simpler, fixed-function processor, so the MIPS rating on that will much more directly relate to the performance specific to 3D math. (plus, there's the combined resource of the R3000 and GTE . . . and the R3000 is rated for some 30 MIPS -in the same context as the SH2's 25 MIPS- so take that as you will -those also share the main bus, so you won't have both maxed out either, like with the Saturn's SH2s)



I've always considered MIPS comparisons somewhat senseless and more of a marketing thing, but it is an established standard too. It oddly adds up to what Kool Kitty is asserting though, and the PS1 would come out about 25% better in raw capability.
It has much better than 25% more raw capability for some things, but for pure sustained texture mapping fillrate (ie drawing opaque sprites), that's probably roughly accurate. (for 3D, you have the geometry performance advantages, for cached textures you have more than double the fillrate and same for solid filled polygons)


What I don't get is why the Saturn's VDP2 capabilities are so easily dismissed, or why the dual frame buffers amounting to 34% more Video RAM in the Saturn than in the PS1 is not to the Saturn's benefit.
It's because those resources are only sometimes useful and otherwise wasted. With fixed framebuffers, anything but high resolution modes will waste that extra space (VDP1 has 1 MB of RAM, but usually uses more like 792 kB -for 320x224 res games vs the PSX making use of the full 1MB), VDP2 RAM only comes into play for VDP2 intensive games (and 3D games with relatively simple 2D BGs would be a much more modest advantage). On top of that, the PSX has texture look-up support for using 4 and 8-bit textures while the Saturn VDP1 (in 15-bit RGB mode) is limited to uncompressed 16-bit textures. (in paletted 16-bit mode, it can use 4 and 8-bit textures similar to VDP2, but cannot use shading/lighting/translucency effects -aside from VDP2 translucency)
That's also ignoring the Saturn's slower main RAM (slightly slower SDRAM and much slower low-RAM) limiting bandwidth for texture updates to VRAM. (not to mention limiting CPU bandwidth too)




The Saturn version of Symphony is a bad port. There is no excuse for the slowdown, the dithered transparency, or the long load times that fail to utilize the load segments at_all. Since the source material doesn't seem a generation above a late gen SNES game to me there is really no excuse for these issues. This is one of many reasons that I think Konami is an overrated developer.
I'm not sure this is a fair comparison either . . . we don't know all the specifics of what the game needs. There could indeed be some areras that are hard on the Saturn . . . albeit I'd expect more of an issue with slowdown OR dithered transparencies and not both. (if they relied soely on VDP1 rendering, they could have hard rougly similar blending effects as the PSX as well as similar graphics flexibility, but with more limited drawing bandwidth -leading to slowdown- . . . while dithering would avoid the limitations of using VDP1+VDP2 BGs, and addressed much of the bandwidht issues)

However there is one addition problem even with the VDP2 route: use of main RAM for animation updates. (the PSX has a higher bandwidth for DMAing data from main to video -133 MB/s vs 114- but the really big issue is for data in low-RAM on the Saturn -which is much slower still and limited to 16-bits width . . . plus, DMA takes away CPU and VDP time while handling those updates)

That's also one of the cool things about unified bus architectures (like the A8, C64, 7800, ST, Amiga, N64, and Jaguar -among others), all RAM is shared and directly accessible to all processors. (albeit there's the issue of efficient bus sharing to deal with -and the major advantages of lower cost and such)

TrekkiesUnite118
01-23-2012, 05:28 PM
I still say SotN is just a badly optimized port. There may be some disadvantages to the Saturn hardware, but the game isn't doing anything that's extremely demanding. There's plenty of far more demanding games on the Saturn that don't have the same performance and graphical issues that SotN has.

Lan Di
01-23-2012, 08:32 PM
I still say SotN is just a badly optimized port. There may be some disadvantages to the Saturn hardware, but the game isn't doing anything that's extremely demanding. There's plenty of far more demanding games on the Saturn that don't have the same performance and graphical issues that SotN has.

Agreed. Simply put, SOTN was a lazy port, similar to the PS3 version of Bayonetta.

kool kitty89
01-23-2012, 09:11 PM
I still say SotN is just a badly optimized port. There may be some disadvantages to the Saturn hardware, but the game isn't doing anything that's extremely demanding. There's plenty of far more demanding games on the Saturn that don't have the same performance and graphical issues that SotN has.
It could also be that the PSX game is just as lazy too, but the architecture (and tools) just ends up catering better to that. ;)

sheath
01-23-2012, 09:17 PM
It could also be that the PSX game is just as lazy too, but the architecture (and tools) just ends up catering better to that. ;)

I say this is the most likely scenario. We are talking about Konami after all.

Da_Shocker
01-23-2012, 09:44 PM
I liked Akumajo Dracula X on the Saturn. Now granted I hadn't played the PSx version at all. But it did seem like a rushed port and again I have to ask why do companies allow this to happen at times do they not give a fuck really? I mean Sega was really bad about this shit. Did they really think those shitty ports of Toshinden was going to convert people to the Saturn? And somebody mentioned Princess Crown which happens to be one of the most overrated Saturn games ever.

djshok
01-23-2012, 10:07 PM
I know this is a Sega site and there's a lot of Saturn fans here but I wonder if there is anyone like me who never had a Saturn and have no urge to buy one.

Yeah me lol. The Saturn (along with the PS1 and N64) actually put me off gaming for a few years. That being said, I still sort of want one just to play Sonic 3D Blast and Earthworm Jim 2, because as much as I dislike that system I really like those 2 games and the Saturn versions are by far the best.

KnightWarrior
01-24-2012, 01:47 AM
I think Konami just stiffed Sega again to make the PS look better

They did that in the 16 bit days too

Barone
01-24-2012, 05:25 AM
@kool kitty89
Thanks for finishing the nonsense homerism in this thread. It was going like: "Saturn is better for 2D, Saturn is better for 3D, Saturn had better games, Saturn..."
By going like that, it would be hard to explain how the marketing was the only responsible for PS1 selling 10x more than Saturn.

In terms of hardware design and capabilities, IMO Saturn VS PS1 is similar to SNES VS Mega Drive; PS1 is the one who resembles the Mega Drive more:
PS1 had more raw processing power.
PS1 had a more flexible hardware.
PS1 had less RAM (total) but made better use of it.

@KnightWarrior
Don't forget about Policenauts...

makinagenesis
01-24-2012, 06:10 AM
i bought a saturn years ago, have aroung 50 CIB games for it and TBH the only one that makes me think ' i think ill get the saturn out' is PDS, though i've never tried it. Ill get round to it one day but my collection is getting that big im lost as what to start on when i finish a game. i could name at least 100 off the top of my head that i want to start, and have 1000s that i really need to play one day, if not then whats the point?

Mr Smith
01-24-2012, 06:49 AM
17 pages in and I haven't added my input:

The Saturn is tosh.

StarMist
01-24-2012, 07:36 AM
I say this is the most likely scenario. We are talking about Konami after all.Konami is not lazy. Castlevania sucks as do their Treasure like 16 bit productions but they are not a lazy company, especially in the 32 bit era. Suikoden was not a lazy effort. Suikoden 2 was not lazy. Azure Dreams was not lazy. Mitsumete Knight was not lazy. Vandal Hearts 1 and 2 were not lazy. Policenauts is total horseshit but was not lazy. Metal Gear Solid was not lazy. Gradius Gaiden was not lazy. Even the Groove Adventure games were not lazy.


I think Konami just stiffed Sega again to make the PS look better

They did that in the 16 bit days tooThis. Sega just let themselves be pissed on by Konami. A deficient Sunset Riders, an extremely ugly Castlevania and Contra game for Genesis, and a graphically broken SotN. SotN like Alien Trilogy probably could've run on one processor.


@kool kitty89
Thanks for finishing the nonsense homerism in this thread. It was going like: "Saturn is better for 2D, Saturn is better for 3D, Saturn had better games, Saturn..."
By going like that, it would be hard to explain how the marketing was the only responsible for PS1 selling 10x more than Saturn. Actually marketing alone would have done that. For one thing Sony's was 10x Sega's. For another it debuted earlier and with the right sort of software. And a history of Walkmans gives better credibility than a recent-current history of aborted add-ons.


In terms of hardware design and capabilities, IMO Saturn VS PS1 is similar to SNES VS Mega Drive; PS1 is the one who resembles the Mega Drive more:
PS1 had more raw processing power.
PS1 had a more flexible hardware.
PS1 had less RAM (total) but made better use of it.
Likening the PS to the Genesis is homerism on your part. The PS had incredible 3rd party development and unwavering parent support. Unlike the Genesis.


Don't forget about Policenauts...No, please do. It's Lethal Weapon on a space colony.
And what do you think is so inferior about the Saturn version? It runs at fewer frames? 1st, I doubt that: having played many multiplatform games on Saturn I can say this seldom happens, it's only FMV that suffers and that only much when it's CGI. 2nd, why would that matter in a point and click game? Third, I've read the Saturn version contains more cutscenes which would at least balance the FMV quality considering this game does not have all the little Easter Eggs Snatcher does so that any little extra difference would amount to a great distinction in such a linear game.

Barone
01-24-2012, 09:12 AM
Likening the PS to the Genesis is homerism on your part. The PS had incredible 3rd party development and unwavering parent support. Unlike the Genesis.
Homerism like yours about Sega Rally and the 3D capabilities of Saturn? I don't think so...

By the way, I wrote "In terms of hardware..." so your comment is pointless.


No, please do. It's Lethal Weapon on a space colony.
And what do you think is so inferior about the Saturn version? It runs at fewer frames? 1st, I doubt that: having played many multiplatform games on Saturn I can say this seldom happens, it's only FMV that suffers and that only much when it's CGI. 2nd, why would that matter in a point and click game? Third, I've read the Saturn version contains more cutscenes which would at least balance the FMV quality considering this game does not have all the little Easter Eggs Snatcher does so that any little extra difference would amount to a great distinction in such a linear game.
You didn't understand. I said Policenauts as an example of Konami doing a better version for the Saturn since was suggested that Konami made bad ports for the Saturn on purpose..

Kamahl
01-24-2012, 09:24 AM
By the way, I wrote "In terms of hardware..." so your comment is pointless.
The Saturn is more like the PC Engine :p not the SNES, just replace "parallax scrolling" with "transparency" (it can do it, but it's limited), not just in hardware either (first to market by only a small margin, owned by the more powerful competitor, strong in japan, magnificent shooter library...). The N64 is the SNES, blurry graphics with advanced effects, muffled sound, doesn't really allow developers to do more than what it was designed to do (well... it's nintendo's fault not the hardware but still), and has no CD drive.

Barone
01-24-2012, 09:33 AM
ahahaha, you nailed it! Just rep'ed.

The use of extra RAM for fighters is another similarity between Saturn and PC Engine.

Kamahl
01-24-2012, 09:51 AM
ahahaha, you nailed it! Just rep'ed.

The use of extra RAM for fighters is another similarity between Saturn and PC Engine.
Didn't even remember that :O, so true!

TrekkiesUnite118
01-24-2012, 10:26 AM
I think Konami just stiffed Sega again to make the PS look better

They did that in the 16 bit days too

I wouldn't say that, there's plenty of good Konami releases on the Saturn.

Off the top of my head theres the following:
Gradius Deluxe Pack
Salamander Deluxe Pack
Sexy Parodius
(All the other Parodius games I can't remember)
Policenauts
Suikoden

There's a few more out there probably but I just can't think of them. I think SotN is just a bad port.