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View Full Version : Dreamcast (and Naomi) VS Model 3 board



Soulis
01-13-2012, 07:34 AM
I think this is the best place to ask this because i can't find many discussions about it. I would like to learn about the differences between the machines. I know that Naomi is essentially a DC with added RAM so i suppose there is no other difference in power. But what about Model 3? I know it was the most powerful thing in its time (when i saw Sega Rally 2 in 1998 my eyes popped out of their sockets) and probably the most expensive board... Naomi/DC is cheaper but its also more recent technology so can it really compete against Model 3? Judging by a few DC ports of Model 3 games to DC (Sega Rally 2) i would say no, but people suggest that these ports were rushed and that DC could normally handle it just fine. Any thoughts?

Cornholio857
01-13-2012, 09:37 AM
Model 3


Main CPU : 32bits RISC PowerPC 603ev 166Mhz
Graphics Chip : 2 x Lockheed Martin Real3D/PRO-1000
Sound CPU : 16bits 68EC000 11.3Mhz
Sound chip : Yamaha SCSP/YMF-292F/"LAKE" FH1 128-step DSP x 2, MIDI interface, 16 bits 64 voices 4 channel, maximum of 16.5 Mbytes ROM, 64 PCM channels
Audio RAM : 1meg (8 megabits, 512K per SCSP chip)
Main Memory : 8 Mbytes 66mhz Ram, graphic ROM maximum of 64 Mbytes, backup RAM 64 Kbytes
Video resolution : 24KHz 496(H)x384(V) one or two plane 24khz, It uses the VGA pinout however. And, the voltage levels of the video output is at VGA levels (.7vdc Peak to Peak)
Scroll Window : two plane (24KHz/two plane mode), 16 colours/32,768 1024 palette x 2 bank, 256/32,768 64 palette x 2 bank
Geometrizer : At least 1,000,100 polygons/s for square polys, 2,000,200 for Triangle polys
Renderer : At least 60,000,000 pixels/s
Video : Full Color Texture Mapping, Tri-Linear Interpolation, Micro Texture, Shading High-Specula Gouraud Shading , Fix Shading, Flat Shading, Texture & Edge Multi Layered Anti-Allasing, Lighting Effects, Parallel Light, 4 Spot Light, Pin Spot Light, Special Effect Zoning-Fog, 32 Levels of Translucency.
Board composition : CPU + VIDEO + ROM boards
Others : 10mbs Connection, calendar IC

NAOMI

The NAOMI (New Arcade Operation Machine Idea) is also Japanese for beauty above all else.
CPU : Hitachi SH-4 32-bit RISC CPU (200 MHz 360 MIPS / 1.4 GFLOPS)
Graphic Engine : PowerVR 2 (PVR2DC)
Sound Engine : ARM7 Yamaha AICA 45 MHZ (with internal 32-bit RISC CPU, 64 channel ADPCM)
Main Ram : 32 megs
Main Memory : 32 MByte
Graphic Memory : 16 MByte
Sound Memory : 8 MByte
Media : ROM Board (maximum size of 172MBytes) / GD-Rom
Simultaneous Number of Colors : Approx. 16,770,000 (24bits)
Polygons : 2.5 Million polys/sec
Rendering Speed : 500 M pixel/sec
Additional Features : Bump Mapping, Fog, Alpha-Bending (transparency), Mip Mapping (polygon-texture auto switch), Tri-Linear Filtering, Anti-Aliasing, Environment Mapping, and Specular Effect.

All specs I found at www.system16.com. Judging by the specs above the NAOMI hardware is slightly better. I also remember BITD magazines speculating how many Model 3 games would be ported to the DC.

Side note: I still find Model 3 games amazing. Especially Sega Super GT/SCUD Racing.

sheath
01-13-2012, 10:08 AM
Oh dear goodness I really wish Super GT had made it home, I need to remember to play it on the Model 3 emulator.

As to the Model 3 to Naomi conversation. The first thing we need to remember is that Model 3 is God, m'kay. Then I think it is safe to say that Naomi/Dreamcast is a nice cheap solution to get Model 3 quality games at home. I think what few Mode 3 to Naomi ports there were turned out exceptionally well, though I think Sega Rally 2 was hamstrung by WinCE. Actually, a lot of Dreamcast games were bottlenecked by WinCE or the Playstation 1 source material.

As for which is better, I'd compare Ferrari 355 Challenge and Test Drive LeMans to Scud Race/Super GT and Daytona 2, or Dead or Alive with Virtua Fighter 3.

Cornholio857
01-13-2012, 10:16 AM
Oh dear goodness I really wish Super GT had made it home, I need to remember to play it on the Model 3 emulator.

It did.......kind of.

kUGKQcWiOS8

retrospiel
01-13-2012, 04:42 PM
Completely different architecture. NAOMI/Dreamcast was more powerful though.

parallaxscroll
05-23-2016, 09:00 AM
Bumping this thread even though it's over 4 years old.

http://i.imgur.com/7U1K30w.jpg?1

There might be another article in a different issue of NG with another report or quote along the same lines -- Where Sega AM said NAOMI is not as good as Model 3, in certain aspects.
I believe there are always trade-offs between completely different architectures in many cases including this one. On the other hand, there was another quote from Yu Suzuki about his team getting 3.5 million polys/sec out of NAOMI, something they had yet to see from the Model 3 board.

Official Sega Saturn Magazine:

http://i.imgur.com/gCWhGcM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TfxVfxU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Pqwwkhx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/odXTUua.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w2tnNnR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zd1hySB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0pAuTYt.jpg

Also, from a French magazine interview with Yu Suzuki via ShenmueDojo forums

http://i.imgur.com/mXLQ1uo.png

http://www.shenmuedojo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=46957&start=30

Team Andromeda
05-23-2016, 10:56 AM
NA@MI is not more powerful than Model 3 Step 2 in a couple of key area's . Model 3 step 2 can display over a million polygons at 60 fps with all effect on and also Model 3 has the advantage of faster ROM .

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7063/26587824664_31a4796ea4_k.jpg

Soulis
05-23-2016, 02:24 PM
As far as polygons are concerned, i don't know what's under the hood but by looking at some games, it seems like Model 3 pushes more. Games like SCUD Race have such elaborate background geometry detail, there isn't any racing game on Naomi that comes close.

Ever since i made this thread, there have been some advancements on Model 3 and Naomi emulation. Naomi on Demul is almost perfect and a few games on Supermodel are almost there (SCUD looks great). So now we can do better comparisons and from what i have seen so far, i'd say Model 3 falls somewhere between Naomi and Naomi 2 it terms of power.

parallaxscroll
05-23-2016, 02:26 PM
Thanks for posting that, what issue of EDGE is that from ?

Team Andromeda
05-23-2016, 02:38 PM
Thanks for posting that, what issue of EDGE is that from ?

It was from the free EDGE Dreamcast supplement given away with EDGE issue#67

parallaxscroll
05-23-2016, 10:10 PM
It was from the free EDGE Dreamcast supplement given away with EDGE issue#67

Ahh, okay, I could not find that online anywhere. Would you mind showing the rest of the Hideki Sato interview?

SonicTheHedgehog
11-06-2016, 06:39 AM
Dreamcast vs Model 3 was very even graphically but Model 3 step 2.0 was definitely superior to Dreamcast for the most part. In my opinion there is nothing on Dreamcast that looks as good as Daytona USA 2.

parallaxscroll
11-06-2016, 10:05 AM
I agree with that ^

IIRC, Model 3 Step 2.0 / 2.1 had a significantly higher pixel fill rate than Step 1.0 / 1.5

Leynos
03-06-2018, 12:03 PM
To me, SEGA's Model series was the arcade hardware version of today's Unreal Engine. Scud Racer still blows my mind. Yes, this is off an EMU but regardless impresses me more seeing how it cleans up so well. Most 3D games of this era don't clean up that well. SEGA was really innovative back then.

https://i.imgur.com/ZmPX16C.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dESSc2i.jpg

Yharnamresident
03-07-2018, 12:12 AM
Has anyone tried researching the exact reason why SCUD Race wasn't released on Dreamcast?

Soulis
05-26-2018, 09:56 AM
Anyone played both the Model 3 and DC versions of Fighting Vipers 2? How do they compare?

waterclaws6
05-30-2018, 02:55 AM
The Dreamcast version of Fighting Vipers 2 is mostly arcade perfect, however the dreamcast version has higher resolution at 640x480 compared to the arcade's 496x384.

waterclaws6
05-30-2018, 03:20 AM
Now looking at the Model 3 specs compared to the Dreamcast and the type of software seen on both, the dreamcast outdoes the Model 3 mostly due to the CPU being faster, the GPU being faster and having some really great bandwidth saving features. The Model 3 still compares well with the dreamcast, however even the later revisions lose to the Naomi and Dreamcast.

axel
06-04-2018, 01:31 PM
Now looking at the Model 3 specs compared to the Dreamcast and the type of software seen on both, the dreamcast outdoes the Model 3 mostly due to the CPU being faster, the GPU being faster and having some really great bandwidth saving features. The Model 3 still compares well with the dreamcast, however even the later revisions lose to the Naomi and Dreamcast.

In order of most to least powerful:

Naomi
Model 3 Step 2
Dreamcast
Model 3 Step 1

Soulis
06-12-2018, 04:58 PM
But the Model 3 has much more powerful graphics chips and there are 2 of them. In Step 2 there are 6 of them. These chips are very high end compare to the GPU Dreamcast/Naomi has. So how can the Naomi/DC be more powerful?

waterclaws6
06-17-2018, 04:35 PM
The only difference between a dreamcast and Naomi is only in how much ram it has.

Team Andromeda
06-18-2018, 11:23 AM
The only difference between a dreamcast and Naomi is only in how much ram it has.

That means NA@MI is more powerful and able to display a better quality of display,texture.


But the Model 3 has much more powerful graphics chips and there are 2 of them. In Step 2 there are 6 of them. These chips are very high end compare to the GPU Dreamcast/Naomi has. So how can the Naomi/DC be more powerful?

Dreamcast can push more polygons, it also got more effects and better levels of lighting and transparency. But from AM#2 Daytona USA 2 team said. In simple terms where you use various Hardware effects in the NAM@I programme, the numnber of polygons drop, where on Model 3 Step2 board you could have all the effects running with the maximum number of polygons along with its faster Ram

waterclaws6
07-27-2018, 08:31 PM
The reason way Scud Race wasn't released on the dreamcast was three factors.

1. Scud Race has a licensing issues due to the racing league going out of business.
2. Their wasn't enough developers and time for a proper port.
3. Sega wanted newer racing titles with more courses and cars, since Scud Race dosen't have a lot of content.

Sega did use a lot of Scud Race assets for testing out early dreamcast hardware and bunch of tech demos for developers.