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Curryman123
01-28-2012, 12:46 AM
I keep hearing Sega fans brag about the 2D capabilities of the Saturn, and how it's much better than the 2D graphics of the PSX.

How do people reach such conclusions? I looked at some 2D games on the PSX-such as Gaia seed, SoTN, and Gradius Gaiden-and the 2D graphics on the PSX seem just as good to me.

I even looked at street fighter Alpha comparisons and aside from 4 second extra load times on the PSX (big whoop), I noticed no difference.

Is this some sort of bragging rights issue? Can anyone explain the rational behind such statements?

Zz Badnusty
01-28-2012, 12:51 AM
DieHard Gamefan magazine said so. Ever since then it has been indisputable truth.

sheath
01-28-2012, 12:57 AM
Well, in my opinion it is sort of the other side of the coin for what PS1 fans (including magazines) have always claimed was "true 3D" or "true transparency", which is always only the way the PS1 does it. The Saturn does 2D with more color and better animation because it has more RAM and the VDP2. VDP1's quads is also widely referred to as 2D distorted to look like 3D. I question that assertion, but it seems to be accepted as fact.

Secondarily to that, the Street Fighter games have more animation in their Saturn iterations, and Saturn exclusive 2D games like Astal, Galactic Attack, and Guardian Heroes have no equivalent on the PS1. Then lesser titles like Skeleton Warriors have added VDP2 features on the Saturn. Whether or not the PS1 could technically surpass the Saturn at 2D, it took longer than the Saturn was on the market to even come close to touching Saturn launch titles.

I find Saturn fan's persistence on this library advantage definitely of the bragging rights variety, that actually undermines any assertion that the Saturn was the PS1's contemporary at 3D as well.

Genesis Knight
01-28-2012, 01:19 AM
SOTN is the classic unique instance where the PSX had better 2D graphics than the Saturn. This was not due to Saturn inferiority, but rather due to shoddy porting.

Iron Lizard
01-28-2012, 01:33 AM
There are always two ways to look at these things which is the technical argument vs what was actually achieved with the system. I think a quick google search would help you faster than any one here could. What is with all of these Saturn threads?

Team Andromeda
01-28-2012, 02:01 AM
I keep hearing Sega fans brag about the 2D capabilities of the Saturn, and how it's much better than the 2D graphics of the PSX.

How do people reach such conclusions? I looked at some 2D games on the PSX-such as Gaia seed, SoTN, and Gradius Gaiden-and the 2D graphics on the PSX seem just as good to me.

I even looked at street fighter Alpha comparisons and aside from 4 second extra load times on the PSX (big whoop), I noticed no difference.

Is this some sort of bragging rights issue? Can anyone explain the rational behind such statements?

How do people say the Mega Drive had better 2D than the Snes or even better 3D ? You compare the both and on that front Saturn 2D games blew away the PS ones just play Cotton II, Guardian Heroes for starters . Not seen much diff in Alpha ? then maybe you should play Street Fighter Alpha II where the Saturn had better backgrounds, effects like reflections and more animation and even a real time intro thrown in too
Btw SOTB, Gradius Gaiden aren't 2D they use use a combo of 2D and 3d polygons - just like Saturn games like Clockwork Knight, Thunder Force IV ECT. And on that score it really doesn't get better than RSG or Shinrei Jusaishi Taroumaru

I'm sure some with bring up In the Hunt or Dodonpachi. In the Hunt yeah the PS version is better , but then Darius Gaiden is better on the Saturn, and Dodonpachi when playing in Tate mode I can see next to no different between the 2 versions bar the PS version sounding better , but there Battle Garegga pee's on the lot of them and RAIZING didn't even bother to port it to the PS, which should tell you all you need to know

Chilly Willy
01-28-2012, 02:07 AM
Well, in my opinion it is sort of the other side of the coin for what PS1 fans (including magazines) have always claimed was "true 3D" or "true transparency", which is always only the way the PS1 does it. The Saturn does 2D with more color and better animation because it has more RAM and the VDP2.

What VDP2 gives over the GPU in the PSX is ease of programming and speed. What the VDP2 does in hardware with no CPU intervention must be done by having the CPU direct the GPU for every little thing in the PSX. Need to make a layer from a select bunch of cells? The VDP2 does that with a map. The PSX must have the CPU go through that map and create a command list for the GPU telling what and where to draw each individual thing. Much of the time, it's not an issue. Many 2D games can be done equally well on either system at full speed. However, there are some things that take full advantage of VDP2 that push the PSX enough that it bogs down a bit. They either have to pull back a little or sacrifice speed. Saturn is clearly the King of 2D... the PSX is just the Prince. That's usually enough.



VDP1's quads is also widely referred to as 2D distorted to look like 3D. I question that assertion, but it seems to be accepted as fact.

It's accepted as fact because even SEGA's own VDP1 manual says so. They go into detail as to how warped sprites are better than plain rasterized polys. It IS more flexible, allowing you to do things that regular polys can't. However, it also has it's drawbacks. It's been discussed a bit in other threads. The primary advantage of "real" 3D polys is speed. The second is no artifacts on shading/transparency like warped sprites suffer.

lumclaw
01-28-2012, 02:11 AM
It's actually difficult to make a fair case by comparing just their libraries. Few major new hardware pushing 2D games launched near side by side on both PSX and Saturn from the same dev team.

Most were either exclusive to one or the other, originated on another system, were ported later (if not outsourced in the process), didn't make heavy use of graphics abilities to begin with, etc.

j_factor
01-28-2012, 02:17 AM
But it's still being defined in 3D space, isn't it? There are still three axes, aren't there?

Genesis Knight
01-28-2012, 02:31 AM
J-factor, remember the good old days when you said that life was better with Saturn and that was good enough? I don't get all these people who are rejecting the holy light of Saturn and the cleansing effect it has on a person. My Saturn has made me, like, 5x as good as I used to be. In every area of life, from sex to philosophy to channel surfing.

kool kitty89
01-28-2012, 04:38 AM
What VDP2 gives over the GPU in the PSX is ease of programming and speed. What the VDP2 does in hardware with no CPU intervention must be done by having the CPU direct the GPU for every little thing in the PSX. Need to make a layer from a select bunch of cells? The VDP2 does that with a map. The PSX must have the CPU go through that map and create a command list for the GPU telling what and where to draw each individual thing. Much of the time, it's not an issue. Many 2D games can be done equally well on either system at full speed. However, there are some things that take full advantage of VDP2 that push the PSX enough that it bogs down a bit. They either have to pull back a little or sacrifice speed. Saturn is clearly the King of 2D... the PSX is just the Prince. That's usually enough.
There's also some cases where the PSX has an advantage for 2D games, including the overall flexibility of the GPU (and the PSX RAM) compared to the Saturn's VDP1+VDP2 set-up. (including extreme cases of heavy sprite generation with limited/no full-layer BG use, flexible per-sprite priority and translucency/blending effects, etc, and cases where the vast majority of graphics memory is needed for sprites -since the PSX GPU has more texture RAM for common resolutions and also has 4 and 8-bit indexed texture support -which VDP1 only has in indexed mode, which disables VDP1 blending and shading effects entirely, and also the faster main RAM in the PSX allowing less overhead for VRAM updates -moderately faster than main SDRAM in the Saturn, and several times faster than low-RAM . . . plus Saturn texture RAM is only 16-bits wide, so less than 1/2 the bandwidth of PSX VRAM for DMA at best)

There's also the separate advantage of the Saturn with RAM expansion (since the PSX never got a RAM add-on), and that's part of where the "better animation" argument comes from. (though a handful of vanilla Saturn games also have slightly better animation iirc)
You could argue the same thing for Saturn multimedia quality with the MPEG module installed. ;)


It's accepted as fact because even SEGA's own VDP1 manual says so. They go into detail as to how warped sprites are better than plain rasterized polys. It IS more flexible, allowing you to do things that regular polys can't. However, it also has it's drawbacks. It's been discussed a bit in other threads. The primary advantage of "real" 3D polys is speed. The second is no artifacts on shading/transparency like warped sprites suffer.
How would true rasterized 3D quads compare with this? (would there be any advantages of warped quads over rasterized quads)

And on that note: any idea if the 3DO uses warped or rasterized quads (asked before on the 5th gen thread, but never got a response). I'm almost positive than Nvidia's NV1 design used actual rasterization (with perspective correct texture support at that), but also went beyond that and added support for quadratic texture mapping for curved surfaces. (beizer surfaces -something the RSP apparently could handle too, though rarely ever used . . . and the complexity of using it on the NV1 along with the use of quads and lack of standard API support- made it unpopular with most developers)

If nothing else, anfast quad rasterizer (one limited primarily by fillrate) would tend to be more efficient due to the lack of overdraw compared to warping. (and also avoid the translucency and shading artifacts) . . . and for that matter, if the 3DO does use warped quads too, then it should suffer similar artifacts as the Saturn for translucency and g-shading. (same for any Sega arcade board that used warping rather than rasterization)



But it's still being defined in 3D space, isn't it? There are still three axes, aren't there?
Yes, it is still built with 3D math (via the CPU -similar to 3D cards of PCs at the time, and all software renderers obviously), but the difference comes in the actual 3D to 2D projection and rendering. 2D warping vs actual rasterization . . . and for solid color (flat shaded) polygons, there's no visual difference (aside from translucent blended quads -which would still suffer from the overdraw artifacts), but textured and smooth-shaded polygons would present greater visible differences. (on the technical end, there's differences in all cases, and the issue of overdraw is one of the more significant ones even for solid filled polygons)

And in terms of being defined in 3D space, you could technically have a fully scaled/rotated sprite based "pseudo 3D" game that actually used 3D projected coordinates to keep track of the objects in real 3D space. (say a game like Wing Commander actually using 3D points and 3D game logic -with 3D points defining position, distance, scaling/size, animation frame, and collision, but looking the same as the original WC -it may actually work that way already too . . . I'm not sure what WC actually does -you can have the opposite too, polygonal 3D objects rendered from 3D coordinates, but with actual gameplay limited to a fixed 2D plane)

Chilly Willy
01-28-2012, 06:23 AM
How would true rasterized 3D quads compare with this? (would there be any advantages of warped quads over rasterized quads)

Rasterized polys aren't warped - they're flat. You don't have any overdraw due to the rasterization. That makes them faster and less prone to distortion (beyond normal affine distortion on affine mappers).

The advantage to warped quads come in that ability to twist around the quad to where they aren't flat - the common example given is to twist one side completely upside down, making a bowtie of the quad. That cannot be done with rasterized quads.



And on that note: any idea if the 3DO uses warped or rasterized quads (asked before on the 5th gen thread, but never got a response). I'm almost positive than Nvidia's NV1 design used actual rasterization (with perspective correct texture support at that), but also went beyond that and added support for quadratic texture mapping for curved surfaces. (beizer surfaces -something the RSP apparently could handle too, though rarely ever used . . . and the complexity of using it on the NV1 along with the use of quads and lack of standard API support- made it unpopular with most developers)

No idea on the NV1. As to the 3DO, if the hardware is anything like the emulator, it seems it is like VDP1, drawing textured lines from the corners on down the cell to the other corners. If that is accurate, it would probably have all the same issues.

StarMist
01-28-2012, 09:42 AM
It's bragging rights along with the Saturn's having more old fashioned 2D games. PS has more 2D games in the 32 bit style like Panzer Bandit's, and whilst the Saturn's SFA graphics are a little better (and incrementally from 1 to 3) what's made out to be its laurels by Sega fans is very much in the 16 bit style, eg Astal, the Cottons, Clockwork Knight, SNK fighters, and more shooters--CK falls into 16 bit SNES style, the others 16 bit NeoGeo style. Layer Section, Battle Garegga, and arguably the Strikers/Gunbird games are legitimately 32 bit 2D. Soukyugurentai and RSG are blends involving ACM, sprites, and polygons, which serve as yes-we-can rights in defence against the PS's fortes.
The rest of the bragging comes from shooter fans, in which domain it's somewhat ill founded, and as a stock tradeoff to the Playstation's 3D prowess. You're best off reserving judgement for a game by game or library to library comparison.

Oh yeah, and Sega fans hate Sony.
I think that's because Sony made the 32X.

Da_Shocker
01-28-2012, 12:10 PM
Just take a look at XvSF and the PSx version has loads of slowdown


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk3TIyt9a00

j_factor
01-28-2012, 03:16 PM
Any fighter that uses the Saturn RAM cart is going to be way lopsided in the Saturn's favor. You can argue it's not a totally fair comparison because Playstation never had a RAM expansion. Good non-RAM-cart examples are X-Men COTA, Street Fighter Alpha 2, Marvel Super Heroes (optional RAM cart support, but even without it), and Night Warriors (compared to Darkstalkers). Those still show a clear advantage for the Saturn.

Baloo
01-28-2012, 03:58 PM
Compare Rayman on PSX to Rayman on Sega Saturn.

Da_Shocker
01-28-2012, 04:05 PM
Any fighter that uses the Saturn RAM cart is going to be way lopsided in the Saturn's favor. You can argue it's not a totally fair comparison because Playstation never had a RAM expansion. Good non-RAM-cart examples are X-Men COTA, Street Fighter Alpha 2, Marvel Super Heroes (optional RAM cart support, but even without it), and Night Warriors (compared to Darkstalkers). Those still show a clear advantage for the Saturn.

Ram simply allowed for more animation to be used i was talking about the fact that PSx version has loads of slowdown. On the Saturn version you can have 4 Juggernauts and NO slowdown. I don't think you can say that about the PSx version.

Chilly Willy
01-28-2012, 04:18 PM
Ram simply allowed for more animation to be used i was talking about the fact that PSx version has loads of slowdown. On the Saturn version you can have 4 Juggernauts and NO slowdown. I don't think you can say that about the PSx version.

Like I said, when things get complex, the PSX can slow down since all that 2D has to be constructed on the fly by the CPU. That takes away from the time the CPU has to devote to game logic, plus the CPU generating GPU command lists is clearly not as efficient as a piece of hardware designed to build that 2D IN HARDWARE. On some games, it won't be apparent - on others you can see the extra work the PSX has to do.

Now the N64 SHOULD have had enough horsepower to do that without slowdown, but Nintendo seems to have highly discouraged that kind of game. I don't think I've seen a single game on the N64 that is TRADITIONAL 2D - it's all 3D levels with a fixed camera and sprites, like Rakuga Kids. Doing traditional 2D on the N64 would be EXACTLY like doing it on the PSX. The N64 graphics library had all the same kinds of commands as the PSX with added options like extra filtering (tri-linear, aka, mipmaps) and perspective correction. The N64 was considerably faster if you didn't use perspective correction, and that would not be needed for 2D drawing.

chinitosoccer
01-28-2012, 07:45 PM
Like I said, when things get complex, the PSX can slow down since all that 2D has to be constructed on the fly by the CPU. That takes away from the time the CPU has to devote to game logic, plus the CPU generating GPU command lists is clearly not as efficient as a piece of hardware designed to build that 2D IN HARDWARE. On some games, it won't be apparent - on others you can see the extra work the PSX has to do.

Now the N64 SHOULD have had enough horsepower to do that without slowdown, but Nintendo seems to have highly discouraged that kind of game. I don't think I've seen a single game on the N64 that is TRADITIONAL 2D - it's all 3D levels with a fixed camera and sprites, like Rakuga Kids. Doing traditional 2D on the N64 would be EXACTLY like doing it on the PSX. The N64 graphics library had all the same kinds of commands as the PSX with added options like extra filtering (tri-linear, aka, mipmaps) and perspective correction. The N64 was considerably faster if you didn't use perspective correction, and that would not be needed for 2D drawing.

+1 This;

The Saturn is not only "more RAM", it also has better cpu's to handle 2D graphics than the PS1.

TheSonicRetard
01-28-2012, 07:56 PM
Any fighter that uses the Saturn RAM cart is going to be way lopsided in the Saturn's favor. You can argue it's not a totally fair comparison because Playstation never had a RAM expansion. Good non-RAM-cart examples are X-Men COTA, Street Fighter Alpha 2, Marvel Super Heroes (optional RAM cart support, but even without it), and Night Warriors (compared to Darkstalkers). Those still show a clear advantage for the Saturn.

Even without a ram cart, X-men vs Street fighter on the Saturn lets you switch characters. You can't tag out on the PSX version - the game's defining feature was omitted due to ram constraints.

Black_Tiger
01-28-2012, 07:57 PM
There's nothing like X-Men VS SF and Marvel VS SF on Playstation or N64. Maybe they could have done them under the right circumstances, but they didn't. People who claim 3D superiority for PSX over Saturn don't accept theoretical potential.

TheSonicRetard
01-28-2012, 08:02 PM
There's nothing like X-Men VS SF and Marvel VS SF on Playstation

uh

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aCg4MRLvOPw/TVHbHGrc4uI/AAAAAAAAAcA/xdpnkfQKoYc/s1600/Marvel-super-heroes-vs-street-fighter-PSX.jpg

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/X-Men-vs-Street-Fighter-Codes-and-Secrets-PSX-2.jpg

Unless you mean "a tag-team, fast paced fighter, that actually retained the ability to tag in and out" in which case:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61oLIVFem9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Zoltor
01-28-2012, 08:05 PM
uh

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aCg4MRLvOPw/TVHbHGrc4uI/AAAAAAAAAcA/xdpnkfQKoYc/s1600/Marvel-super-heroes-vs-street-fighter-PSX.jpg

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/X-Men-vs-Street-Fighter-Codes-and-Secrets-PSX-2.jpg

Unless you mean "a tag-team, fast paced fighter, that actually retained the ability to tag in and out" in which case:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61oLIVFem9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Lol yea, clearly someone is clueless.

bpguimaraes23
01-28-2012, 10:11 PM
Rasterized polys aren't warped - they're flat. You don't have any overdraw due to the rasterization. That makes them faster and less prone to distortion (beyond normal affine distortion on affine mappers).

The advantage to warped quads come in that ability to twist around the quad to where they aren't flat - the common example given is to twist one side completely upside down, making a bowtie of the quad. That cannot be done with rasterized quads.

Reading previous threads I was under the impression that the vdp1 and the ps pgu were very similar except for the fact that the vdp1 used quads. Apparently i was wrong, but I don understand this rasterized vs warped thing. Can someone explain me the differences, or point me to somewhere I can find out? Obviously I'm not a tech guy, I'm just curious.

j_factor
01-28-2012, 10:14 PM
Unless you mean "a tag-team, fast paced fighter, that actually retained the ability to tag in and out" in which case:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61oLIVFem9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Have you actually played the PSX version of Marvel vs. Capcom? The tagging is seriously gimped: it only works if both players use the same set of two characters.

TheSonicRetard
01-28-2012, 10:19 PM
Have you actually played the PSX version of Marvel vs. Capcom? The tagging is seriously gimped: it only works if both players use the same set of two characters.

Yes, I know. It's an expanded form of a hidden mode from Xmen vs street fighter for the PSX. The point if you claimed nothing like it existed on the system, and yet... well, there it is.

sheath
01-28-2012, 10:33 PM
Yes, I know. It's an expanded form of a hidden mode from Xmen vs street fighter for the PSX. The point if you claimed nothing like it existed on the system, and yet... well, there it is.

Well, I thought the versus games were only worth looking into if you were still into old stuff (http://www.gamespot.com/marvel-super-heroes-vs-street-fighter/reviews/marvel-super-heroes-vs-street-fighter-import-review-2532883/).

In more seriousness though, I don't think I have seen any of the Capcom fighters praised on the PS1 for being better than any other console port. Unless we're talking about Monkeyboy Rox that is.

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/Miscmovies/monkeyboyrox.JPG

Aarzak
01-28-2012, 10:38 PM
Even without a ram cart, X-men vs Street fighter on the Saturn lets you switch characters. You can't tag out on the PSX version - the game's defining feature was omitted due to ram constraints.

I don't believe that Saturn XMvSF works without the RAM cart. It was developed with the cart in mind.

Zoltor
01-28-2012, 10:43 PM
Well, I thought the versus games were only worth looking into if you were still into old stuff (http://www.gamespot.com/marvel-super-heroes-vs-street-fighter/reviews/marvel-super-heroes-vs-street-fighter-import-review-2532883/).

In more seriousness though, I don't think I have seen any of the Capcom fighters praised on the PS1 for being better than any other console port. Unless we're talking about Monkeyboy Rox that is.

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/Miscmovies/monkeyboyrox.JPG

Hey j_Factor said there weren't any games like that on the PS, not that there weren't any especially good ones like that lol.

Yea, the Capcom PS ports are meh(trying to port DC/DC grade fighters to the PS was a pretty dumb idea to beginwith), the ports on the PS2 are amazing though(some even better then the DC originals) :)

TheSonicRetard
01-28-2012, 10:46 PM
I don't believe that Saturn XMvSF works without the RAM cart. It was developed with the cart in mind.

You're right, I just tried to boot the game without my ram cart installed and got an error message. I had no idea the game actually required the cart, I thought only SNK games actually needed a cart to run.

lumclaw
01-28-2012, 10:49 PM
Aren't those ram cart Capcom fighters not quite a suitable comparison even not counting the upgrade? I thought they were rushed to PSX more to please the dying Western market on Saturn, than a serious attempt at pushing PSX to its limits.

Team Andromeda
01-29-2012, 12:22 AM
Any fighter that uses the Saturn RAM cart is going to be way lopsided in the Saturn's favor. You can argue it's not a totally fair comparison because Playstation never had a RAM expansion. Good non-RAM-cart examples are X-Men COTA, Street Fighter Alpha 2, Marvel Super Heroes (optional RAM cart support, but even without it), and Night Warriors (compared to Darkstalkers). Those still show a clear advantage for the Saturn.

Yep the Cart games are a meaningless and unfair comparison. But when it game to Darkstalkers, MSH and more SF II Alpha and X-Men COTA (where the PS ver is truly dire) the Saturn versions are much the better then you can start you can start to add in games like Souky, Silhouette Mirage,Shienryu where again the Saturn versions are all better . There some great 2D games on the PS, just like there's great 3D on the Saturn, but the best of 2D was on the Saturn, just like the best 3D was on the PS.

Black_Tiger
01-29-2012, 02:02 AM
Yep the Cart games are a meaningless and unfair comparison. But when it game to Darkstalkers, MSH and more SF II Alpha and X-Men COTA (where the PS ver is truly dire) the Saturn versions are much the better then you can start you can start to add in games like Souky, Silhouette Mirage,Shienryu where again the Saturn versions are all better . There some great 2D games on the PS, just like there's great 3D on the Saturn, but the best of 2D was on the Saturn, just like the best 3D was on the PS.

They are only unfair if comparing frames of animation, amount of unique art, etc. The extra ram only lets the Saturn throw around even more stuff to push its limits. The Saturn running fully animated ports with more going on and not slowing down is more impressive than the same and/or similar games on Playstation suffering slowdown with less stuff going on. Ram does not increase cpu or vdp power.

With that said, the Saturn still has more ram than the Playstation without ram carts and shared or comparable games have more animation/content.

I'm (not so) surprised to see both SotN mentioned as a sign of superiority for the PSX as well as inferior PSX games being excused as bad ports.

Even if SotN turned out perfect on Saturn, it's not an impressive 2D game for 32-bit consoles in the first place. You might as well site MKII as proof that the Saturn sucks at 2D.

KnightWarrior
01-31-2012, 11:07 PM
If the RAM Cart was never made..I think the Fighting Games on the Saturn in Japan would still look better

The PS never had a Stronge 2D Hardware, The VS Games like MSH vs Street Fighter slowed down on the PS

GreyFox
02-01-2012, 04:27 AM
Think one big contributing factor to this is X-Men Children of the Atom. It came out very early on Saturn (among the first wave of games) and was a hugely impressive port. Fast fluid gameplay, lots of animation and detailed backgrounds etc. The PSX version was initially cancelled (and I think the reason stated was "unable to handle the 2D/amount of animation" or words to that effect). So in much the same way that the shoddy/rushed ports of Daytona USA and Virtua Fighter led to a widespread belief that Saturn "couldn't handle 3D" (despite evidence to the contrary that it could although maybe not as well or elegantly as some other systems) the idea that the PSX "couldn't do 2D" took shape. Along with the widely circulated rumour that "Sony will only allow 3D games on the system" clearly untrue as early games included Rapid Reload/Gunners Heaven, Worms and a little title called Mortal Kombat 3

Of course X-Men Children of the Atom did eventually get ported to PSX, presumably after developers got more familiar with the hardware and squeezing performance out of it. The machine was so well supported by developers and had a reasonable life cycle so it is little surprise that the machine has good examples of both 2D and 3D games.

The big shame is that neither the N64 or (in particular) the Saturn had anything like a normal lifespan/development cycle so we didn't get to see these machines pushed n the same way as the PSX.

kool kitty89
02-01-2012, 05:41 AM
Oh yeah, and Sega fans hate Sony.
I think that's because Sony made the 32X.
Wait, what???





Ram simply allowed for more animation to be used i was talking about the fact that PSx version has loads of slowdown. On the Saturn version you can have 4 Juggernauts and NO slowdown. I don't think you can say that about the PSx version.

Like I said, when things get complex, the PSX can slow down since all that 2D has to be constructed on the fly by the CPU. That takes away from the time the CPU has to devote to game logic, plus the CPU generating GPU command lists is clearly not as efficient as a piece of hardware designed to build that 2D IN HARDWARE. On some games, it won't be apparent - on others you can see the extra work the PSX has to do.

Now the N64 SHOULD have had enough horsepower to do that without slowdown, but Nintendo seems to have highly discouraged that kind of game. I don't think I've seen a single game on the N64 that is TRADITIONAL 2D - it's all 3D levels with a fixed camera and sprites, like Rakuga Kids. Doing traditional 2D on the N64 would be EXACTLY like doing it on the PSX. The N64 graphics library had all the same kinds of commands as the PSX with added options like extra filtering (tri-linear, aka, mipmaps) and perspective correction. The N64 was considerably faster if you didn't use perspective correction, and that would not be needed for 2D drawing.

In addition to complexity of GPU command list generation vs hardware VDP2 tilemaps takeing a lot of that overhead (VDP1 wouldn't be much different than the GPU though), there's still more to it on the RAM issue.

Games using the RAM cart on the Saturn could be pulling animation updates from cart buses (A and/or B) without disrupting the CPU, while the PSX would rely much more on storing added animation in main RAM (cutting into CPU bus time for DMA). On top of that, they may have implemented software compression schemes on some of those PSX games to help compensate for the more limited RAM capacity. (whereas vanilla Saturn games have many more trade-offs for using main RAM -more overhead/bandwidth constraints than updating PSX VRAM, though there's still the VDP1+VRP2 RAM advantage for games that favor that split -some games would favor the PSX's RAM set-up more though -since many 2D games use paletted sprite textures, that also avoids the massive disadvantage for direct color textures on the Saturn -VDP1 can only use raw 15-bit textures for drawing in 15-bit RGB vs the PSX which supports 4-bit and 8-bit textures too)





+1 This;

The Saturn is not only "more RAM", it also has better cpu's to handle 2D graphics than the PS1.
That wasn't Chilly's main point. (the main point being the complexity of using the GPU+CPU to handle tilemaps vs VDP2 -which is totally dedicated to that task- though VDP1 would have similar issues as the PSX GPU in those respects)
The SH2 resource advantage in 2D games could also be significant (or less significant in cases where multiprocessing isn't favorable), but that's not the biggest issue.

TmEE
02-01-2012, 06:04 AM
That one CPU in PSX runs much slower than single CPU in Saturn does most of the time. SH2s in Saturn have working and automatic caching and the CPUs pull figures close to 28 MIPS without much sweat but on PSX you have the cache but no controller, and the CPU runs full speed only in that 4KB chunk you have to handle yourself... out of that chunk it won't go beyond 18 MIPS.

Regarding tilemaps, once you have set it up you only update small parts. Only a fool tries to update it all times all the way. I would really not say it is complex to set them up, definitely less headache than creating display lists for 3D hardware due to being sequential not so much changing data. Scrolling is only matter of changing some registers, not manually displacing every single tile/sprite which you'd have to do on PSX which does require rework of entire "tilemap"

bultje112
02-01-2012, 08:01 AM
I keep hearing Sega fans brag about the 2D capabilities of the Saturn, and how it's much better than the 2D graphics of the PSX.

How do people reach such conclusions? I looked at some 2D games on the PSX-such as Gaia seed, SoTN, and Gradius Gaiden-and the 2D graphics on the PSX seem just as good to me.

I even looked at street fighter Alpha comparisons and aside from 4 second extra load times on the PSX (big whoop), I noticed no difference.

Is this some sort of bragging rights issue? Can anyone explain the rational behind such statements?

keep playing psx then as I can't play it for games like marvel super heroes, marvel vs streetfighter, x-men vs street fighter, the psx ports are very bad. also of the street-fighter games but not as bad as marvel games I'd say. the differences are very big, not just some tomb raider or resident evil nonsense.

bultje112
02-01-2012, 08:02 AM
Any fighter that uses the Saturn RAM cart is going to be way lopsided in the Saturn's favor. You can argue it's not a totally fair comparison because Playstation never had a RAM expansion. Good non-RAM-cart examples are X-Men COTA, Street Fighter Alpha 2, Marvel Super Heroes (optional RAM cart support, but even without it), and Night Warriors (compared to Darkstalkers). Those still show a clear advantage for the Saturn.

of course you can count it. or should we also not count n64's expansion when looking at games like perfect dark?

and even without it saturn blew psx out of the water. marvel super heroes is good example

StarMist
02-01-2012, 11:03 AM
Think one big contributing factor to this is X-Men Children of the Atom. It came out very early on Saturn (among the first wave of games) and was a hugely impressive port. Fast fluid gameplay, lots of animation and detailed backgrounds etc.

Of course X-Men Children of the Atom did eventually get ported to PSX, presumably after developers got more familiar with the hardware and squeezing performance out of it.
Not so much. The Saturn game is adequate, the PS game what an arcade player would consider broken. Both suffer from degrees of frame sacrifice and slowdown. On the PS end it's presumably because the game was released so overdue it had better been forgotten: `98.

j_factor
02-01-2012, 12:32 PM
Actually the Playstation version of COTA was developed and completed in mid-1996. It was shelved, and eventually released in early '98. The disc's catalog number (PSRM) is still for a 1996 release.

TrekkiesUnite118
02-01-2012, 01:09 PM
Along with the widely circulated rumour that "Sony will only allow 3D games on the system" clearly untrue as early games included Rapid Reload/Gunners Heaven, Worms and a little title called Mortal Kombat 3


I'm pretty sure that policy did exist at some point. Certain key titles like Megaman X4 fell victim to it and as a result were released significantly later than when they were on the Saturn. And as j_factor just pointed out, it's very likely that CotA fell victim to this as well.

TVC 15
02-01-2012, 01:15 PM
That one CPU in PSX runs much slower than single CPU in Saturn does most of the time. SH2s in Saturn have working and automatic caching and the CPUs pull figures close to 28 MIPS without much sweat but on PSX you have the cache but no controller, and the CPU runs full speed only in that 4KB chunk you have to handle yourself... out of that chunk it won't go beyond 18 MIPS.

Regarding tilemaps, once you have set it up you only update small parts. Only a fool tries to update it all times all the way. I would really not say it is complex to set them up, definitely less headache than creating display lists for 3D hardware due to being sequential not so much changing data. Scrolling is only matter of changing some registers, not manually displacing every single tile/sprite which you'd have to do on PSX which does require rework of entire "tilemap"

That corroborates with a lot of stuff I've read regarding the Saturn's man CPU's. The PSX is only really at a significant advantage due to the GTE which performs a lot of matrix math very very fast in regards to the time frame and competition it was first released around. The SH-2's really where great chips for the money back in the day. I've read some tech discussions over on Atariage suggest whilst the GTE is faster than a single SH-2 at matrix math calculations, its not as fast as you'd believe, anywhere between 10-20 cycles through the GTE and 20-30 comparatively for the SH-2, the MIPS on the other hand takes over 70 Cycles to perform similar calculations which indicates the SH-2 is faster, certainly at certain types of math. That sounds like benchmarks anyway, which aren't really reliable real world scenarios, of course the Saturn does have architectural inefficiencies elsewhere but its doesn't seem like vast performance differences.

I always thought Sega's intention was using the second SH-2 as a co-processor rather than in a full blown SMP setup, lock the caches and treat the slave cpu as a geometry coprocessor, no different from the GTE which I'm sure from what I've read (though I'll happily admit if I'm wrong) shares the bus with the PSX MIPS.

Gogogadget
02-01-2012, 03:24 PM
For what it's worth, I heard that policy did exist and Resident Evil 2 would of remained an N64 exclusive if they blocked the release of Megaman X something or other.

Chilly Willy
02-01-2012, 03:52 PM
That one CPU in PSX runs much slower than single CPU in Saturn does most of the time. SH2s in Saturn have working and automatic caching and the CPUs pull figures close to 28 MIPS without much sweat but on PSX you have the cache but no controller, and the CPU runs full speed only in that 4KB chunk you have to handle yourself... out of that chunk it won't go beyond 18 MIPS.

Not sure where you got these figures... the SH2 is rated for 25 MIPS at 28.7 MHz while the R3000A in the PSX is rated at 30 MIPS at 33 MHz. The R3000A has a cache controller - not sure what you were talking about there. The R3000A in the PSX has a 4KB instuction cache and a 1KB data cache. The SH2 has a 4KB unified cache holding both instructions and data, so the SH2 instructions can be "flooded" out of the cache by data.

TmEE
02-01-2012, 03:59 PM
I've been talking about some subjects with Mr. Snake and he has given the figures to me. The CPU in PSX has no cache controller and it runs half speed in anywhere except the 4KB of scratchpad inside the CPU. PSX CPU is not a vanilla R3000A, its a mangled version of it.

Black_Tiger
02-01-2012, 04:14 PM
For what it's worth, I heard that policy did exist and Resident Evil 2 would of remained an N64 exclusive if they blocked the release of Megaman X something or other.

But wasn't the N64 version a port of the Playstation version and came out years later?

TrekkiesUnite118
02-01-2012, 04:28 PM
I heard it was that Capcom threatened to not release Resident Evil 2 on the PS1 in general if Sony of America continued to block the release of Megaman X4 in the US. So most likely at that point in time if Sony didn't cave and if Capcom was serious with their threat RE2 would have probably went Saturn exclusive.

Black_Tiger
02-01-2012, 04:30 PM
I heard it was that Capcom threatened to not release Resident Evil 2 on the PS1 in general if Sony of America continued to block the release of Megaman X4 in the US. So most likely at that point of time if Sony didn't cave and if Capcom was serious with their thread RE2 would have probably went Saturn exclusive.

That makes much more sense. The rushed Saturn port might have been slapped together simply as leverage against Sony.

kool kitty89
02-01-2012, 04:36 PM
That one CPU in PSX runs much slower than single CPU in Saturn does most of the time. SH2s in Saturn have working and automatic caching and the CPUs pull figures close to 28 MIPS without much sweat but on PSX you have the cache but no controller, and the CPU runs full speed only in that 4KB chunk you have to handle yourself... out of that chunk it won't go beyond 18 MIPS.

Regarding tilemaps, once you have set it up you only update small parts. Only a fool tries to update it all times all the way. I would really not say it is complex to set them up, definitely less headache than creating display lists for 3D hardware due to being sequential not so much changing data. Scrolling is only matter of changing some registers, not manually displacing every single tile/sprite which you'd have to do on PSX which does require rework of entire "tilemap"
I was under the impression that the PSX CPU had a hardware managed instruction cache in addition to a data scratchpad (the latter would obviously be limited to software control).

As for main DRAM . . . yes, that's ALWAYS slower, though burst (page-mode) accesses should take 1 cycle (so cache fill and such should approach that bandwidth). Latency is high, but peak bandwidth is good, like with all page-mode DRAM types. (FPM, EDO, BEDO, and the various types of SDRAM)

If the SDRAM interface in the Saturn is anything like the 32x, that would be pretty limiting too (limited to burst accesses, so unnecessary slow for random, single word reads/writes) . . . and on top of that, being limited to burst accesses of fixed chunk sizes is also limiting. (for cases where you might want to fill multiple lines of cache consecutively or similar, keeping the DRAM page open longer would be preferable whereas fixed burst sizes would force a page-change after the first block access was completed -it would make much more sense to keep a row held indefinitely until access to another page/row was actually needed -which is pretty much what the jaguar does iirc, albeit with older/cheaper/slower FPM DRAM)

And the Saturn's low-RAM is much slower still, so cases making heavy use of that would be limiting too. (whereas the PSX has a solid block of 32-bit wide EDO DRAM, though for random access 16-bit word read/writes, the low RAM probably isn't much slower . . . and -again- if the Saturn is anything like the 32x, low RAM might actually be faster than SDRAM for single word random read/writes)

kool kitty89
02-01-2012, 05:29 PM
That corroborates with a lot of stuff I've read regarding the Saturn's man CPU's. The PSX is only really at a significant advantage due to the GTE which performs a lot of matrix math very very fast in regards to the time frame and competition it was first released around. The SH-2's really where great chips for the money back in the day. I've read some tech discussions over on Atariage suggest whilst the GTE is faster than a single SH-2 at matrix math calculations, its not as fast as you'd believe, anywhere between 10-20 cycles through the GTE and 20-30 comparatively for the SH-2, the MIPS on the other hand takes over 70 Cycles to perform similar calculations which indicates the SH-2 is faster, certainly at certain types of math. That sounds like benchmarks anyway, which aren't really reliable real world scenarios, of course the Saturn does have architectural inefficiencies elsewhere but its doesn't seem like vast performance differences.
Also remember that the GTE is clocked at 66 MHz, so those cycle figures would be MUCH faster still than on a 28.6 or 26.6 MHz SH2. (so the GTE would be around 4 to 5x faster than an SH2 for those operations)



Not sure where you got these figures... the SH2 is rated for 25 MIPS at 28.7 MHz while the R3000A in the PSX is rated at 30 MIPS at 33 MHz. The R3000A has a cache controller - not sure what you were talking about there. The R3000A in the PSX has a 4KB instuction cache and a 1KB data cache. The SH2 has a 4KB unified cache holding both instructions and data, so the SH2 instructions can be "flooded" out of the cache by data.
It was my impression that the PSX has a 4k i-cache (with controller), but just a 1k data scratchpad under software control. (still with some major advantages over the SH2 set-up -I don't think the SH2 cache supports an instruction-only mode . . . otherwise you could opt to split the cache with a 2k scratchpad and a 2k dedicated i-cache for a set-up closer to the PSX -and that 2k would stretch further with the 16-bit ISA)

As mentioned in my previous post, there's also issues dependent on how the DRAM interface is managed. (ie page-mode support, burst accesses, and random accesses -though, in general, the Saturn's SDRAM and PSX EDO DRAM have very similar performance specs in terms of access and cycle times, so it would be mainly dependent on what the DRAM controllers are capable of -if the Saturn is anything like the 32x, that would be pretty limiting)



I've been talking about some subjects with Mr. Snake and he has given the figures to me. The CPU in PSX has no cache controller and it runs half speed in anywhere except the 4KB of scratchpad inside the CPU. PSX CPU is not a vanilla R3000A, its a mangled version of it.
I believe a vanilla R3000/R3000A has no on-chip caches or scratchpads at all, but does include internal cache logic supporting up to 64k of instruction and another 64k of data cache externally. (so more like a 386 with board-level L1 cache)








I'm pretty sure that policy did exist at some point. Certain key titles like Megaman X4 fell victim to it and as a result were released significantly later than when they were on the Saturn. And as j_factor just pointed out, it's very likely that CotA fell victim to this as well.

I heard it was that Capcom threatened to not release Resident Evil 2 on the PS1 in general if Sony of America continued to block the release of Megaman X4 in the US. So most likely at that point in time if Sony didn't cave and if Capcom was serious with their threat RE2 would have probably went Saturn exclusive.
It would seem really weird for them to actively block things like that . . . from a major publisher and a major franchise at that, while relatively niche 2D games/publishers were putting out games on the PSX from almost day 1.

As I've argued before, maybe it was more an issue with special advantages/bonuses to publishers for pushing out more 3D games rather than a hard limit/penalty for releasing 2D games at all. (so, the conflict on the publisher's end would still be sacrificing some/all of that bonus to push 2D games, but a bit of a different context in any case)

Without specific details on how the actual contracts worked, it's really hard to say either way though. (it's all sopposition as of now -albeit with some basis on vague/limited info from magazines/interviews -unless there ARE some articles that discuss specific details on contracts -on the same level as has been researched into Nintendo's old licensing contracts)

Chilly Willy
02-01-2012, 05:37 PM
I've been talking about some subjects with Mr. Snake and he has given the figures to me. The CPU in PSX has no cache controller and it runs half speed in anywhere except the 4KB of scratchpad inside the CPU. PSX CPU is not a vanilla R3000A, its a mangled version of it.

The only place I've seen that claims the PSX R3000A doesn't have cache is an unattributed claim on the wikipedia page for scratchpad memory. And half-speed to external memory is GOOD, not bad.

What WAS stripped down was the MMU - they removed the TLB, which is why the linux for PSX was based on the 2.4 kernel for uClinux, which was a specific version of the kernel for CPUs without an MMU.

Gogogadget
02-01-2012, 05:49 PM
That makes much more sense. The rushed Saturn port might have been slapped together simply as leverage against Sony.

Although Sony won in the end anyway, as the Saturn port was cancelled anyway.

Black_Tiger
02-01-2012, 06:58 PM
Although Sony won in the end anyway, as the Saturn port was cancelled anyway.

I meant the poor port of RE1, which never made sense to release as-is.

j_factor
02-01-2012, 11:19 PM
I'm pretty sure that policy did exist at some point. Certain key titles like Megaman X4 fell victim to it and as a result were released significantly later than when they were on the Saturn. And as j_factor just pointed out, it's very likely that CotA fell victim to this as well.

No, that supposed policy is nothing more than a baseless rumor that somehow caught on. There was never a period of time in which 2D games were not coming out for the Playstation. Here's what happened with COTA. Capcom contracted Rutubo to do the Saturn port and published it in Japan; they gave Acclaim the Western publishing rights, and Acclaim contracted Probe to do additional ports to PSX and PC. Those were only ever intended for North America and Europe (and the game remains a Saturn exclusive in Japan to this day), and it was always going to come out for Saturn first, but only by a few months originally. COTA was probably shelved because it was a bad port, and then quietly released because they realized they were just sitting on it. Regardless of the reason, it was shelved by the publisher, not by Sony. Sony had no problem issuing it a catalog number, and the discs were even printed.

Note that Street Fighter Alpha came out for Playstation first, and Alpha 2 came out for both systems simultaneously IIRC. And Mega Man X4 came out for both systems at the same time, as did 8. Mega Man 8, in fact, was actually the opposite situation. It was originally going to be exclusively for the Saturn, but Sony took umbrage to that.

Chilly Willy
02-02-2012, 12:58 AM
It was my impression that the PSX has a 4k i-cache (with controller), but just a 1k data scratchpad under software control. (still with some major advantages over the SH2 set-up -I don't think the SH2 cache supports an instruction-only mode . . . otherwise you could opt to split the cache with a 2k scratchpad and a 2k dedicated i-cache for a set-up closer to the PSX -and that 2k would stretch further with the 16-bit ISA)

Actually, the SH2 cache control is much more flexible - you can disable instructions or data from the cache, you can set the cache to two-way, which makes it 2KB cache and 2KB scratchpad, and if you turn it off completely, it's 4KB scratchpad. So I do rather like the caching in the SH2. Actually, I just plain like this CPU. :D

Seeing as every memory map for the PSX says it has 1KB of scratchpad ram, I'd say you're probably right about the 1K d-cache probably actually being the scratchpad ram.

KnightWarrior
02-02-2012, 02:53 AM
If the RAM Cart came here, lets just say..it could have used..Well it could of been released early in Japan

Games like

Street Fighter Collection
Street Fighter Alpha 1 & 2

or Most of the 2D Fighters

bultje112
02-02-2012, 06:35 AM
I meant the poor port of RE1, which never made sense to release as-is.



resident evil 1 for saturn a bad port?

Team Andromeda
02-02-2012, 07:49 AM
No, that supposed policy is nothing more than a baseless rumor that somehow caught on

Nothing baseless about it , it was true that SONY America had a anti 2d stance and SNK even went public about it so did Working Designs - who had a nightmare getting a 2D game given the right to be published in the USA.

Mind you SEGA had fools like Bernie in charge who also was against 2D games


They are only unfair if comparing frames of animation, amount of unique art, etc. The extra ram only lets the Saturn throw around even more stuff to push its limit

Its unfair because add memory can make a word of difference in terms of performance . I much rather compare 2D fighters on both systems that run with out the Ram cart and on that score the Saturn comes out the winner by a big margin


Think one big contributing factor to this is X-Men Children of the Atom. It came out very early on Saturn (among the first wave of games) and was a hugely impressive port. Fast fluid gameplay, lots of animation and detailed backgrounds etc. The PSX version was initially cancelled (and I think the reason stated was "unable to handle the 2D/amount of animation" or words to that effect). So in much the same way that the shoddy/rushed ports of Daytona USA and Virtua Fighter led to a widespread belief that Saturn "couldn't handle 3D" (despite evidence to the contrary that it could although maybe not as well or elegantly as some other systems) the idea that the PSX "couldn't do 2D" took shape

Good post tbh

moonwhistle
02-02-2012, 10:09 AM
I'd say that the Saturn has better 2D games than the PSX and leave it at that.

sheath
02-02-2012, 10:50 AM
In addition to being Anti-2D in the US, Sony America had a very strict selection process because they had a preconceived "image" of what the Playstation brand should look like. This caused Working Designs most of their production delays in getting approval for localization, according to Vic Ireland (who really really loved Sony btw).

Black_Tiger
02-02-2012, 11:07 AM
resident evil 1 for saturn a bad port?

Yes, it wasn't pushing much for either console and the design was tailor made for the Saturn's strengths. Instead we got a downgraded version of the PSX game, on a technical level at least. It was used by mags and Saturn haters as further proof that the Saturn sux and PSX is the best at 3D(/2D).




In addition to being Anti-2D in the US, Sony America had a very strict selection process because they had a preconceived "image" of what the Playstation brand should look like. This caused Working Designs most of their production delays in getting approval for localization, according to Vic Ireland (who really really loved Sony btw).

Vic has always been an 'in the moment' kinda guy. Sega was the best when he jumped ship from the TG-16, because he thought that he could ride the Genesis popularity wave to fame and fortune. Then did the same thing when he jumped to Sony. By the time the Arc the Lad collection was finally close to coming out, he was telling everyone who'd listen how hard done by he was and how Sony told him that 2D games aren't real games and to compensate, he had to pile all the Arc the Lad games into a single release to make it equal to an average 3D game to be allowed the privilege of releasing it.

StarMist
02-02-2012, 11:48 AM
In addition to being Anti-2D in the US, Sony America had a very strict selection process because they had a preconceived "image" of what the Playstation brand should look like. This caused Working Designs most of their production delays in getting approval for localization, according to Vic Ireland (who really really loved Sony btw).
By any chance do you put on a coat of blue lipstick before you say such things?

TrekkiesUnite118
02-02-2012, 11:52 AM
They did at first. It wasn't until Bernie Stolar left that Sony of America's policies on what games got published relaxed significantly. And surprise surprise, when Stolar went to Sega of America he imposed similar policies with the Saturn.

sheath
02-02-2012, 12:33 PM
By any chance do you put on a coat of blue lipstick before you say such things?

I don't like lipstick, I won't even kiss the wife when she is wearing it or lip gloss or chapstick. Why do you ask?

StarMist
02-02-2012, 12:39 PM
There's Sega love and then there's...rabies. I wouldn't like to see any of our wiser members contract rabid fanboy hatred from any of our duller.

j_factor
02-02-2012, 01:09 PM
Nothing baseless about it , it was true that SONY America had a anti 2d stance and SNK even went public about it so did Working Designs - who had a nightmare getting a 2D game given the right to be published in the USA.

No they didn't. I don't recall hearing of any troubles WD had regarding Lunar, Alundra, Thunder Force V, RayStorm, or Silhouette Mirage. Vic Ireland has been known to blow things out of proportion, so anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. If Sony was giving him a hard time, he would have brought over the Saturn versions of all of the above (minus Alundra). And certainly if it was such a nightmare, they wouldn't have done it over and over again. As for SNK, I'd love to see a quote, because that doesn't make sense considering Sony America had pursued an exclusivity agreement with them. And SNK didn't seem to have trouble putting out Metal Slug X later on.


Mind you SEGA had fools like Bernie in charge who also was against 2D games

I hate Bernie, but he was not categorically against 2D games. He was anti-RPG, but not anti-2D. While at Sony, Bernie struck an agreement with SNK to make Playstation their only platform outside of Neo Geo (and SNK only made 2D games at that time), he paid off Midway to keep Mortal Kombat 3 off the Saturn, he managed the launch of the system with Rayman being one the top sellers, and Sony even published Philosoma. On the Saturn, he refused to bring a lot of games over, but that's because he wanted to kill the system. There were still 2D games being released right up to the end.


In addition to being Anti-2D in the US, Sony America had a very strict selection process because they had a preconceived "image" of what the Playstation brand should look like. This caused Working Designs most of their production delays in getting approval for localization, according to Vic Ireland (who really really loved Sony btw).

Couldn't have been that strict, considering some of the dreck that came through. We're talking about a system with over 1200 US releases, a significant portion of which are utter shite (though not as much as the PS2).


Vic has always been an 'in the moment' kinda guy. Sega was the best when he jumped ship from the TG-16, because he thought that he could ride the Genesis popularity wave to fame and fortune. Then did the same thing when he jumped to Sony. By the time the Arc the Lad collection was finally close to coming out, he was telling everyone who'd listen how hard done by he was and how Sony told him that 2D games aren't real games and to compensate, he had to pile all the Arc the Lad games into a single release to make it equal to an average 3D game to be allowed the privilege of releasing it.

But that's probably BS. Arc the Lad 1 and 2 were very old by the time WD was releasing them, which seems a relevant fact. Plus, those were SCEI's own games. Remember, WD had their greatest trouble with Sony over a 3D Goemon game.


They did at first. It wasn't until Bernie Stolar left that Sony of America's policies on what games got published relaxed significantly. And surprise surprise, when Stolar went to Sega of America he imposed similar policies with the Saturn.

We're kind of all over the place here, aren't we? You're talking about 1995 and others are talking about 2002.

Either way, it's wrong. Make a timeline of 2D games on the Playstation. You'll see no gaps. From Rayman a few days before launch to Final Fantasy Origins in 2004. Fact is, the PSX has a ton of 2D games.

TrekkiesUnite118
02-02-2012, 01:26 PM
It was when Bernie Stolar was working at Sony that the policy existed. The Vic Ireland comments are in response to the fact that he originally wanted to do those games around 1995, 1996 when they came out in Japan, however Bernie Stolar wouldn't let him saying they wouldn't sell. This is exactly why when Bernie Stolar came to Sega Vic Ireland looked for any excuse to stop working on Saturn stuff. WD was going to a lot of those games for the Saturn originally, but then Stolar came along and the two got into a massive pissing contest. The only reason MKR came out was because it was given the ok back in 1996 under Kalinske and was delayed due to losing the source code.

Almost all those games you mentioned that WD didn't have trouble with didn't come out in the US on the PS1 until AFTER Stolar left the company.

StarMist
02-02-2012, 01:34 PM
Raystorm and Philosoma are composed of polygons. Their gameplay could be considered 2D though Philosoma's mixture of styles and inclusion of rail stages would make for a bit of a dispute. Then again gameplay wasn't the point in contention.

j_factor
02-02-2012, 01:52 PM
It was when Bernie Stolar was working at Sony that the policy existed.

Stolar left Sony in 1996, well before there was a Mega Man 8 or X4 or many of the Capcom fighters we were talking about earlier.


The Vic Ireland comments are in response to the fact that he originally wanted to do those games around 1995, 1996 when they came out in Japan, however Bernie Stolar wouldn't let him saying they wouldn't sell. This is exactly why when Bernie Stolar came to Sega Vic Ireland looked for any excuse to stop working on Saturn stuff. WD was going to a lot of those games for the Saturn originally, but then Stolar came along and the two got into a massive pissing contest.

Cite please, of those games only Lunar was planned for a US Saturn release as far as I have ever heard. And Vic canceled it because Bernie pissed him off at E3, not because Bernie wouldn't let him bring it out.


Almost all those games you mentioned that WD didn't have trouble with didn't come out in the US on the PS1 until AFTER Stolar left the company.

Working Designs didn't even support the Playstation until after Stolar left the company. Stolar's conduct at Sega was the catalyst for them to start making Playstation games.

Black_Tiger
02-02-2012, 02:04 PM
But that's probably BS. Arc the Lad 1 and 2 were very old by the time WD was releasing them, which seems a relevant fact. Plus, those were SCEI's own games. Remember, WD had their greatest trouble with Sony over a 3D Goemon game.

I learned early on to expect everything that Victor Ireland says to be b.s. or an self serving stretch of the truth. ;)

TrekkiesUnite118
02-02-2012, 02:16 PM
There's an interview floating around somewhere were Vic Ireland said he approached Stolar about doing the first Arc the Lad around late 1995 and was told no. The fact of the matter is Working Designs wanted to support the PS1 before Stolar left the company but Stolar turned down the games they wanted to localize. This caused the feud between the two and is why when Stolar came to Sega Ireland was looking for any reason to leave the Saturn, he was originally going to after Lunar, but the E3 fiasco made him leave sooner. If Stolar never came to Sega, we probably would have seen multiplatform releases of those games.

j_factor
02-02-2012, 08:59 PM
There's an interview floating around somewhere were Vic Ireland said he approached Stolar about doing the first Arc the Lad around late 1995 and was told no.

It's a Sony game. When he "was told no", was that person saying "no, won't allow that sort of game to be released in the US" or was it "no, we won't license our game to you"? Even if it is the former, who says it has anything to do with it being 2D? I noticed that the game's Wikipedia article says something like you're describing (unsourced, natch), but it says it was because it's an RPG, not because it's 2D. We all know Bernie didn't like RPGs.


The fact of the matter is Working Designs wanted to support the PS1 before Stolar left the company but Stolar turned down the games they wanted to localize.

Now you've turned it into a plural but you've only mentioned one game. What other games?

TrekkiesUnite118
02-02-2012, 09:05 PM
I would assume Arc the Lad 2 fell victim to it since it was also released in that window.

Black_Tiger
02-02-2012, 09:49 PM
It's a Sony game. When he "was told no", was that person saying "no, won't allow that sort of game to be released in the US" or was it "no, we won't license our game to you"? Even if it is the former, who says it has anything to do with it being 2D? I noticed that the game's Wikipedia article says something like you're describing (unsourced, natch), but it says it was because it's an RPG, not because it's 2D. We all know Bernie didn't like RPGs.

I remember one interview in which Victor Ireland said that Sony told him that the first Arc the Lad wasn't good enough to release on its own and he said that it was hypocritical because it was made by (the greater) Sony.

sheath
02-02-2012, 10:02 PM
Couldn't have been that strict, considering some of the dreck that came through. We're talking about a system with over 1200 US releases, a significant portion of which are utter shite (though not as much as the PS2).


That's what I mean, it wasn't strict quality control, it was all about marketing the Playstation's image. Sony doesn't know quality, they just know how to make everybody think a certain thing about their system. This is why I think everybody is so convinced the PS1 and PS2 are some kind of polygon powerhouses. There may be some technical reason to believe that the PS1 and PS2 had superior calculations for polygon generation, but everybody thinks that is the case because of marketing.


There's Sega love and then there's...rabies. I wouldn't like to see any of our wiser members contract rabid fanboy hatred from any of our duller.

I'm still confused. Am I spreading rabbies by saying Sony had strict controls on what kind of games that were released?

j_factor
02-03-2012, 01:51 AM
I remember one interview in which Victor Ireland said that Sony told him that the first Arc the Lad wasn't good enough to release on its own and he said that it was hypocritical because it was made by (the greater) Sony.

Have you played Arc the Lad 1? It's not at all unreasonable to say that it's not good enough to release on its own, without bringing in the fact that it's 2D or anything. I enjoyed it but it's one of the shortest RPGs I've ever played, and the production values aren't exactly high either.

TmEE
02-03-2012, 06:10 AM
Sony did have very strict rules, for developers. They would not let the game through unless every criteria is met. You had to give Sony all source files, listing etc. for their inspection. If they did not like something you had to adjust it or have no chance for release. Sony did not allow ASM to be used early on and you had to use their tools. You were not allowed to talk to the hardware directly. Eventually they loosened up as it meant better games in the end.

StarMist
02-03-2012, 10:16 AM
I'm still confused. Am I spreading rabbies by saying Sony had strict controls on what kind of games that were released?
My original post implied what j_factor explicitly stated about the # of games &c.
As to your spreading anything, no, I still think you on the side that would stand to contract.
Obviously you and I will never agree about Sony's affect on the industry, I'd just rather we kept on speaking terms about it. Eg for all the 2D games they effectively killed by refusing to allow on the PS they still helped conceive as many as Sega during the 32 bit days; many more if you count 2D RPGs (which could all have been forced to be handled like PDS).
And why does everybody think the PS a polygon power? Because it was the first to succeed at them. It's games didn't look like Hard Drivin, Silpheed, Metal Head, Iron Soldier, or Guardian Wars.

Da_Shocker
02-03-2012, 12:39 PM
I'm sorry but anybody that believes half the shit Vic Ireland was saying needs to be shot and killed. The guy was a serial liar and a hypocrite. I understood that he had issues with Stolar and he said as long as Stolar was the head guy at Sega he would never work with them again. Once Stolar was fired he started to make up all sorts of excuses about not coming back and proceed to kiss Sony's ass. And once Sony screwed Vic over I felt vindicated and extremely good. And it's not like WD translates the absolute best games. I also don't know where this Sony was anti-2D game from. It was Bernie Stolar that had gotten MK3 and as someone had said earlier Sony bough KOF 95 and SS3 out as exclusive. I was pissed off that these games weren't coming here. I'm sure there were certain 2D games that SCEA didnt want here but not all.

NeoVamp
02-03-2012, 01:14 PM
Wasn't the whole "No 2D" just from the PS2 days?

j_factor
02-03-2012, 01:51 PM
Wasn't the whole "No 2D" just from the PS2 days?

A few years ago, there was an interview with one of the main people at NIS America, who stated that their games being 2D was never a problem with Sony.

Black_Tiger
02-03-2012, 01:51 PM
I'm sorry but anybody that believes half the shit Vic Ireland was saying needs to be shot and killed. The guy was a serial liar and a hypocrite. I understood that he had issues with Stolar and he said as long as Stolar was the head guy at Sega he would never work with them again. Once Stolar was fired he started to make up all sorts of excuses about not coming back and proceed to kiss Sony's ass. And once Sony screwed Vic over I felt vindicated and extremely good. And it's not like WD translates the absolute best games. I also don't know where this Sony was anti-2D game from. It was Bernie Stolar that had gotten MK3 and as someone had said earlier Sony bough KOF 95 and SS3 out as exclusive. I was pissed off that these games weren't coming here. I'm sure there were certain 2D games that SCEA didnt want here but not all.

Victor Ireland told all kinds of stories as Working Designs had trouble completing and publishing games back in the Turbo and Sega-CD games. Even though they were only localizations. The two Neo Geo ports that WD attempted to build from scratch never produced even a single screen shot. WD added parallax to Exile WP but broke the already unbalanced gameplay by introducing new bugs and shipped it without playtesting or simply not caring.

There was a force working against WD all along that kept holding their releases back and his name is Victor Ireland.

sheath
02-03-2012, 03:22 PM
Aren't all CEO types serial liars? The problem is that Victor Ireland gave an account of Sony making certain types of games difficult to localize, citing the Playstation's image as the reason. Unless another developer/publisher went on the record saying Sony never did this we have one fact FOR Sony's strict game approval process and nothing against.

Da_Shocker
02-03-2012, 03:58 PM
Aren't all CEO types serial liars? The problem is that Victor Ireland gave an account of Sony making certain types of games difficult to localize, citing the Playstation's image as the reason. Unless another developer/publisher went on the record saying Sony never did this we have one fact FOR Sony's strict game approval process and nothing against.

No they are stiff suit types of guys? What other CEO that you know would actively post in message boards? But as I had mentioned earlier why would it matter since Vic had lied to us outright about supporting the DC? I had always viewed Vic as a real genuine guy who cared about gamers. But once the PS2 arrived he showed his true colors by being a complete phony. And it's not like WD bought AAA games out here all the time. Of the 6 Saturn games they released 3 were good and the other 3 ranged from mediocre(MKR) to garbage (Shining Wisdom)

jerry coeurl
02-03-2012, 04:59 PM
People get mad that Vic didn't go back to Sega, but he never claimed he would. He just said he wouldn't work there so long as Stolar was there. Show me a quote where he says, "As soon as Stolar leaves Sega, I promise to go back to making games for them right away," and maybe I'll better understand your frustration.

Either way, it's hard to blame the guy for not going back to Sega. I mean, they were a serious hot mess at the time. Things were really fucked up and in America (where WD published their games), their platform was dead last. It wouldn't have made any sense, financial or otherwise, to go back to Sega at that point.

And I thought Shining Wisdom was quite good. Best Zelda clone I've ever played.

eddiespruce
02-03-2012, 05:10 PM
And I thought Shining Wisdom was quite good. Best Zelda clone I've ever played.

I've got to pick that one up sometime. So far, the best Zelda clone I've played is "Neutopia", on the TG-16. If Shining Wisdom is better, I'm really looking forward to getting it.

jerry coeurl
02-03-2012, 05:20 PM
I think a lot of the hate it gets comes from the inflated prices it goes for on eBay. Lots of people try to sell it in the $80+ range, and it's definitely not worth that much. I payed 30 bucks for it, though, and I was quite happy with my purchase. It's probably not better than Neutopia.

sheath
02-03-2012, 05:35 PM
The Saturn might have been in a distant third place by the end of 1997, but in 1996 things were comparable to the Xbox 360 and PS3 last year.

jerry coeurl
02-03-2012, 05:42 PM
Ok, so it was in a dubious "tied-for-second" type position, in which case it would still have made little sense to jump ship.

sheath
02-03-2012, 05:44 PM
Yeah, he dumped a working business partner because of his ego from what I can tell. He also might have seen Bernie Stolar's writing on the wall and jumped ship while still fuming from his bruised ego.

kool kitty89
02-03-2012, 06:23 PM
No they are stiff suit types of guys? What other CEO that you know would actively post in message boards?
Umm . . . Nolan Bushnell? (who would also certainly fit the "serial liar" category too -though he certainly seems to have gotten away with much better personal PR than the likes of Vic in any case)

It's true that many many corporate heads/presidents/marketing/etc lie/twist facts in the public eye for the better of a company's PR at a given time (even Mike Katz did that, and he's one of the more straight-shooting/no-nonsense examples) . . . but that's different than perpetuated/new lies and indirection made after the fact. (in retrospective interviews and such, and also issues of personal ego vs company PR -obviously, doing things for the best of the company would be important and include twisting/manipulation of information while working with said company/product, but after the fact it's really up to personal ego and honesty)

Team Andromeda
02-03-2012, 06:29 PM
No they didn't. I don't recall hearing of any troubles WD had regarding Lunar, Alundra, Thunder Force V, RayStorm, or Silhouette Mirage. Vic Ireland has been known to blow things out of proportion, so anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. If Sony was giving him a hard time, he would have brought over the Saturn versions of all of the above (minus Alundra). And certainly if it was such a nightmare, they wouldn't have done it over and over again. As for SNK, I'd love to see a quote, because that doesn't make sense considering Sony America had pursued an exclusivity agreement with them. And SNK didn't seem to have trouble putting out Metal Slug X later on

I can't be bothered to look for the Working Desgins interview, but here's a interview with SNK Yoshihito Koyama at Eurogamer


Eurogamer: What are your commercial expectations?
Yoshihito Koyama: The European market is maybe 30 per cent of the whole market, so we think the US market is maybe 50 per cent, but the most important thing is to covert from NTSC to PAL. But with Sony you have to think about SCEA approval because they don't like 2D games, but SCEE, they accept 2D games for release, but SCEA say 'no, they must be 2 in 1', or something like this, so we must follow for the European release as well, you know, two in a package.

Sony America have always been anti 2D.


I hate Bernie, but he was not categorically against 2D games. He was anti-RPG, but not anti-2D

He was anti 2D quirky games and RPG's . The man was a complete tosser


And lets not read anti has meaning 100% = no exceptions. There's always a few games that get passed, just like how NCL were anti blood and violence, but some games were allowed on the SNES

Breetai
02-03-2012, 09:41 PM
It's bragging rights along with the Saturn's having more old fashioned 2D games. PS has more 2D games in the 32 bit style like Panzer Bandit's, and whilst the Saturn's SFA graphics are a little better (and incrementally from 1 to 3) what's made out to be its laurels by Sega fans is very much in the 16 bit style, eg Astal, the Cottons, Clockwork Knight, SNK fighters, and more shooters--CK falls into 16 bit SNES style, the others 16 bit NeoGeo style. Layer Section, Battle Garegga, and arguably the Strikers/Gunbird games are legitimately 32 bit 2D. Soukyugurentai and RSG are blends involving ACM, sprites, and polygons, which serve as yes-we-can rights in defence against the PS's fortes.
The rest of the bragging comes from shooter fans, in which domain it's somewhat ill founded, and as a stock tradeoff to the Playstation's 3D prowess. You're best off reserving judgement for a game by game or library to library comparison.

Oh yeah, and Sega fans hate Sony.
I think that's because Sony made the 32X.
I love the internet. :)

This is classic.

gamevet
02-03-2012, 10:50 PM
I can't be bothered to look for the Working Desgins interview, but here's a interview with SNK Yoshihito Koyama at Eurogamer



Sony America have always been anti 2D.



He was anti 2D quirky games and RPG's . The man was a complete tosser


And lets not read anti has meaning 100% = no exceptions. There's always a few games that get passed, just like how NCL were anti blood and violence, but some games were allowed on the SNES


I've heard the stories, but the releases by Sony themselves doesn't match up with that. Sony published Beyond the Beyond in July of 1996, with a retail price of $59.99. And the sprite based (Sony's 989 studios) NFL Gameday was a launch title.


http://psx.ign.com/objects/000/000450.html

j_factor
02-03-2012, 10:55 PM
I can't be bothered to look for the Working Desgins interview, but here's a interview with SNK Yoshihito Koyama at Eurogamer

I googled and that interview was from 2004. So he's not really from SNK, he's from Playmore. And that has little to do with PSX. SCEA did make them do 2-in-1 packs for a few PS2 releases. But, they were Neo Geo ports. They released singular Neo Geo ports on PSX; SCEA probably figured that a generation later, it was no longer a good value. They had no issue with Metal Slug X on Playstation, whereas Metal Slug 3 for PS2 wasn't allowed.

gamevet
02-03-2012, 11:04 PM
He was anti 2D quirky games and RPG's . The man was a complete tosser


And lets not read anti has meaning 100% = no exceptions. There's always a few games that get passed, just like how NCL were anti blood and violence, but some games were allowed on the SNES

I've heard of the anti-2D stance SOA had, but they launched the Playstaton with a 2D football game (NFL Gameday) and published a 2D RPG (Beyond the Beyond) in July of 1996. Don't you find that a bit odd?

http://psx.ign.com/objects/000/000450.html

gamevet
02-03-2012, 11:04 PM
What happened to my post?

eddiespruce
02-03-2012, 11:11 PM
What happened to my post?

I don't know. A couple of minutes ago, it said, "Test".

gamevet
02-04-2012, 01:38 AM
I don't know. A couple of minutes ago, it said, "Test".

I posted before that, and saw a message about waiting on moderation approval.:daze:

My post was pretty much showing that SCEA had indeed published 2D titles with NFL Gameday at launch and Beyond the Beyond in 1996. I guess my link to an article about Beyond the Beyond was causing problems.

I find it rather odd, that a company that was supposedly against 2D games would publish 2 of their own within an 8 month period.

Da_Shocker
02-04-2012, 02:34 AM
[QUOTE]People get mad that Vic didn't go back to Sega, but he never claimed he would. He just said he wouldn't work there so long as Stolar was there. Show me a quote where he says, "As soon as Stolar leaves Sega, I promise to go back to making games for them right away," and maybe I'll better understand your frustration.

As long as Stolar was there he wasn't going to come back. Vic never had any issues with Sega before Stolar got there. He had issues with Stolar at Sony so it's pretty safe to say he HATED Bernie.


Either way, it's hard to blame the guy for not going back to Sega. I mean, they were a serious hot mess at the time. Things were really fucked up and in America (where WD published their games), their platform was dead last. It wouldn't have made any sense, financial or otherwise, to go back to Sega at that point.


And this is where things get interesting, Vic always claimed to be in it for the love of games. WD ALWAYS had supported niche systems up until the PSx. Once they started to read the financial benefits of moving on to the more profitable systems they said fuck Sega. There own undoing was probably not working with the GBA because they hated carts and thought the PS2 was going to do them good.


And I thought Shining Wisdom was quite good. Best Zelda clone I've ever played.

Really wow lol that game is so boring. I really had high hopes for that game and well Linkle Liver Story and Legend of Oasis are WAY better than that game

j_factor
02-04-2012, 03:02 AM
As long as Stolar was there he wasn't going to come back. Vic never had any issues with Sega before Stolar got there. He had issues with Stolar at Sony so it's pretty safe to say he HATED Bernie.

And I don't blame him at all. However, he never really gave a reason for not supporting the Dreamcast. Bernie was gone by the time it launched. I would've loved to see Rent A Hero, Napple Tale, deSPIRIA, Rune Jade, Sunrise Eiyuutan, or Tricolore Crise get the WD treatment.


And this is where things get interesting, Vic always claimed to be in it for the love of games. WD ALWAYS had supported niche systems up until the PSx. Once they started to read the financial benefits of moving on to the more profitable systems they said fuck Sega. There own undoing was probably not working with the GBA because they hated carts and thought the PS2 was going to do them good.

I never understood why WD never even entertained the idea of releasing a game for Gamecube or Xbox. When Sega pissed them off, they moved to Sony; when Sony pissed them off, they did nothing.

kool kitty89
02-04-2012, 03:26 AM
Actually, the SH2 cache control is much more flexible - you can disable instructions or data from the cache, you can set the cache to two-way, which makes it 2KB cache and 2KB scratchpad, and if you turn it off completely, it's 4KB scratchpad. So I do rather like the caching in the SH2. Actually, I just plain like this CPU. :D
Hmm, can you split the cache into 2k I and 2k D caches, or can only 1 cache bank be actively managed by the cache controller at a time? (ie only 4k, 2k, or 0k of instruction and/or data cache and 0k, 2k, or 4k of scratchpad -which would obviously be capable of holding any mix of data and code since it's software managed)


Seeing as every memory map for the PSX says it has 1KB of scratchpad ram, I'd say you're probably right about the 1K d-cache probably actually being the scratchpad ram.
It's also interesting to note that the Flare enginners used a very similar set-up for the RCPU in the Jaguar II chipset. (4 kB instruction cache and 1k scratchpad -with the option to disable the cache and have 5 kB of scratchpad RAM -and, unlike the R3000, but like the SH2, the J-RISC chips use fixed-length 16-bit instructions, so better code density and more efficient scratchpad/cache use)





Yes, it wasn't pushing much for either console and the design was tailor made for the Saturn's strengths. Instead we got a downgraded version of the PSX game, on a technical level at least. It was used by mags and Saturn haters as further proof that the Saturn sux and PSX is the best at 3D(/2D).
This is partially true, but there's some areas where the Saturn would be at a fundamental disadvantage to the PSX game. There's the shading/lighting problems that are inherent in Saturn games, difficulties/limitations of using translucency (aside from the warped quad blending issue of the VDP1 end, there's the bigger problem of limited VDP1-VDP2 blending/priority control, meaning dithering is the only option to achieve certain translucency effects that overlap with both VDP1 and VDP2 pixels/layers).
There's also the issue of the Saturn having nominally less texture RAM and (at best) VDP2 RAM only being used for the prerendered BG (which would most likely be streamed/buffered into main RAM on the PSX and copied to the framebuffer -so also not impacting texture RAM).
Plus, as always, the PSX is faster/better at using main RAM for VRAM updates. (VRAM is double the width and the bus is 33 MHz vs 26.6/28.6 -and using low-RAM on the Saturn is much slower still)

There's really no significant advantages for the Saturn for a game like RE compared to the PSX. (the most significant one would probably be the potential to use a 24-bit color VDP2 layer for the prerendered BG, allowing better quality than the PSX's 15-bit RGB, but all the 3D foreground stuff would still be moderately weaker -at best)






No, that supposed policy is nothing more than a baseless rumor that somehow caught on. There was never a period of time in which 2D games were not coming out for the Playstation. Here's what happened with COTA. Capcom contracted Rutubo to do the Saturn port and published it in Japan; they gave Acclaim the Western publishing rights, and Acclaim contracted Probe to do additional ports to PSX and PC. Those were only ever intended for North America and Europe (and the game remains a Saturn exclusive in Japan to this day), and it was always going to come out for Saturn first, but only by a few months originally. COTA was probably shelved because it was a bad port, and then quietly released because they realized they were just sitting on it. Regardless of the reason, it was shelved by the publisher, not by Sony. Sony had no problem issuing it a catalog number, and the discs were even printed.

Note that Street Fighter Alpha came out for Playstation first, and Alpha 2 came out for both systems simultaneously IIRC. And Mega Man X4 came out for both systems at the same time, as did 8. Mega Man 8, in fact, was actually the opposite situation. It was originally going to be exclusively for the Saturn, but Sony took umbrage to that.
That would actually make a LOT more sense than some of the other claims.

There's certainly evidence of some sort of bias on Sony's part for western (or perhaps US-specific) releases, but it doesn't seem limited or specific to 2D games so much as specific (arguably niche) Japanese games. (as has been pointed out already, there were plenty of US/EU published/developed 2D games released on the PSX very early on)










No they didn't. I don't recall hearing of any troubles WD had regarding Lunar, Alundra, Thunder Force V, RayStorm, or Silhouette Mirage. Vic Ireland has been known to blow things out of proportion, so anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. If Sony was giving him a hard time, he would have brought over the Saturn versions of all of the above (minus Alundra). And certainly if it was such a nightmare, they wouldn't have done it over and over again. As for SNK, I'd love to see a quote, because that doesn't make sense considering Sony America had pursued an exclusivity agreement with them. And SNK didn't seem to have trouble putting out Metal Slug X later on.



I hate Bernie, but he was not categorically against 2D games. He was anti-RPG, but not anti-2D. While at Sony, Bernie struck an agreement with SNK to make Playstation their only platform outside of Neo Geo (and SNK only made 2D games at that time), he paid off Midway to keep Mortal Kombat 3 off the Saturn, he managed the launch of the system with Rayman being one the top sellers, and Sony even published Philosoma. On the Saturn, he refused to bring a lot of games over, but that's because he wanted to kill the system. There were still 2D games being released right up to the end.



Couldn't have been that strict, considering some of the dreck that came through. We're talking about a system with over 1200 US releases, a significant portion of which are utter shite (though not as much as the PS2).



But that's probably BS. Arc the Lad 1 and 2 were very old by the time WD was releasing them, which seems a relevant fact. Plus, those were SCEI's own games. Remember, WD had their greatest trouble with Sony over a 3D Goemon game.



We're kind of all over the place here, aren't we? You're talking about 1995 and others are talking about 2002.

Either way, it's wrong. Make a timeline of 2D games on the Playstation. You'll see no gaps. From Rayman a few days before launch to Final Fantasy Origins in 2004. Fact is, the PSX has a ton of 2D games.
This all also makes a lot of sense, though I do wonder how much impact Stolar had directly on Sony's policies, and how much came from other sources. (it could certainly mostly be his doing, but I wouldn't pose that as fact without more specific details/documentation)

And in any case (Stolar or not), it definitely makes sense that it was more a de-factor anti- quirky/niche "too Japanese" game policy rather than anti-2D at all. (again, given the numerous western 2D releases from day 1)


I could also certainly see very strict/specific requirements in the manner Tiido describes (which don't sound all that different from what 3DO was doing), but that's still not nearly the same situation as was being claimed about "anti-2D" and such. (or even anti-RPG for that matter)







The Saturn might have been in a distant third place by the end of 1997, but in 1996 things were comparable to the Xbox 360 and PS3 last year.
Probably more like the 360 and PS3 in 2008 in terms of US market share. (not install base, mind you -since the 360's head start skews that somewhat)






I never understood why WD never even entertained the idea of releasing a game for Gamecube or Xbox. When Sega pissed them off, they moved to Sony; when Sony pissed them off, they did nothing.
Or PC for that matter . . . or going multiplatform PC/GC/Xbox. (or any mix of those that entailed favorable publishing agreements -PC would obviously be the most flexible)

OTOH, that would also mean a lot more programming work for WD than in the past, since the vast majority of their releases were just translations of Japanese games. (and the majority of developers/publishers they licensed were tied mainly to Sony platforms -and the Xbox certainly was NOT JP-friendly ;))

Team Andromeda
02-04-2012, 03:51 AM
I googled and that interview was from 2004. So he's not really from SNK, he's from Playmore. And that has little to do with PSX. SCEA did make them do 2-in-1 packs for a few PS2 releases. But, they were Neo Geo ports. They released singular Neo Geo ports on PSX; SCEA probably figured that a generation later, it was no longer a good value. They had no issue with Metal Slug X on Playstation, whereas Metal Slug 3 for PS2 wasn't allowed.

IT was in print form where SNK said they had lot of trouble getting 2D games passed by Sony America and the head of SNK went public about it, even before the big fuss over Metal Slug III on the PS2 and to make out that SNK Playmore is not SNK is simply laughable
Like I said being anti does not mean that means a complete lock out . NCL were anti blood for the most part and id said they'll never work with NCL again after Wolfenstein , yet some games with blood were allowed . Jackie Chan says he was anti blood in his films, yet there's blood in both Project A, Amour of God and Police Story.

SONY America do not like 2D games or games that didn't feature English speech its quite common knowledge


I never understood why WD never even entertained the idea of releasing a game for Gamecube or Xbox. When Sega pissed them off, they moved to Sony; when Sony pissed them off, they did nothing.

Sadly there wasn't any RPG's of note to bring over from the X-Box or Cube and most of the other decent games were being brought over anyway by other companies . Vic killed the company with his childish spat with Bernie and forgot his was a niche company that only appealed to the serious die-hard gamer -which wasn't the PS mainstream .
Sad, he could have made quite a decent market for himself on the Saturn and PS , its quite a shame WD never brought Grandia to the west for both the Saturn and PS or the lies of Segagaga for the DC.

j_factor
02-04-2012, 04:42 AM
IT was in print form where SNK said they had lot of trouble getting 2D games passed by Sony America and the head of SNK went public about it, even before the big fuss over Metal Slug III on the PS2 and to make out that SNK Playmore is not SNK is simply laughable

Well you've changed the subject entirely. We weren't talking about PS2. That SCEA wanted SNK Playmore to release their PS2 Neo Geo ports in double packs really has fuck-all to do with Bernie Stolar, X-Men COTA, or Mega Man X4. When you brought up SNK in that context you sure made it sound like you were talking about the original SNK that went bankrupt in 2001.


Like I said being anti does not mean that means a complete lock out .

I was responding to the notion that "Sony will only allow 3D games on the system" and that this policy resulted in certain PSX games being delayed or canceled. In any case, simply calling them anti-2D is very vague and meaningless without further detail. Your Playmore quote didn't strike me as particularly strong.


SONY America do not like 2D games or games that didn't feature English speech its quite common knowledge

You might want to tell that to Jack Niida, NIS America's marketing coordinator, because he never got that memo:


Gamasutra: Have you had any trouble getting SCEA to approve 2D games?

Niida: Sony's been very helpful, actually. We've been able to bring over all the titles that we submitted, and they seem to like the titles we brought over.


Sadly there wasn't any RPG's of note to bring over from the X-Box or Cube and most of the other decent games were being brought over anyway by other companies .

They could have done Giftpia, Tensai Bit-Kun, Dokapon DX, Super Robot Taisen GC, Metal Wolf Chaos, Braveknight, SMT Nine, Thousand Land, Tenerezza, Galaxy Angel, Bistro Cupid, etc. There's always something out there.

Team Andromeda
02-04-2012, 05:13 AM
Well you've changed the subject entirely. We weren't talking about PS2. That SCEA wanted SNK Playmore to release their PS2 Neo Geo ports in double packs really has fuck-all to do with Bernie Stolar, X-Men COTA, or Mega Man X4

I haven't changed my tune at all. I said SNK went public about SONY America anti 2D stance that's all , and that's what SNK did (which you claimed otherwise) , so did Vic . All they were saying is that SONY America did not like 2D games and it was hard work to get them passed and I never ever brought X4 or COTA in to it , so don't come it on that one


When you brought up SNK in that context you sure made it sound like you were talking about the original SNK that went bankrupt in 2001.

It's in print form too and I really can't be bothered to dig through all the mag's to find it . And SNK Playmore and SNK are much the same and doesn't change the fact that it was harder to get 2D games passed by Sony America than 2D one's


They could have done Giftpia, Tensai Bit-Kun, Dokapon DX, Super Robot Taisen GC, Metal Wolf Chaos, Braveknight, SMT Nine, Thousand Land, Tenerezza, Galaxy Angel, Bistro Cupid, etc.

Even the die-hards never bothered much with the likes of Tensai Bit-Kun and I can see a date sim like Braveknight doing at well in the west . Maybe something like Metal Wolf Choas or Dinosaur Hunting had a chance - I have those games and they're quite fun, but main stream games had a hard time selling on the Cube, never mind niche games from Japan . But I'm sure if Working Designs ported Grandia on the PS and Saturn they would have had a million seller on their hands and could have seen Segagaga doing quite well too.

Da_Shocker
02-04-2012, 09:45 AM
TA, why did the PSX get KoF95 and SS3 while the Saturn NEVER got any SNK games here? KoF95 was released in Europe though.

Chilly Willy
02-04-2012, 01:31 PM
Hmm, can you split the cache into 2k I and 2k D caches, or can only 1 cache bank be actively managed by the cache controller at a time? (ie only 4k, 2k, or 0k of instruction and/or data cache and 0k, 2k, or 4k of scratchpad -which would obviously be capable of holding any mix of data and code since it's software managed)

Only one cache that has both data and/or instructions. There's no separate controller for each type of data, only the ability to not handle either type in the one controller. The memory is part of the cache, or it's scratchpad. When the cache is fully on, it's 4-way set associative; when you set it to half-n-half, it's 2-way, with the other two ways forming the scratchpad. When it's off, both ways are scratchpad.



It's also interesting to note that the Flare enginners used a very similar set-up for the RCPU in the Jaguar II chipset. (4 kB instruction cache and 1k scratchpad -with the option to disable the cache and have 5 kB of scratchpad RAM -and, unlike the R3000, but like the SH2, the J-RISC chips use fixed-length 16-bit instructions, so better code density and more efficient scratchpad/cache use)

Have you looked at the Jaguar RISC instructions? It really looks like m68k or SH2 assembly. You can see the influence there.

Team Andromeda
02-04-2012, 04:46 PM
TA, why did the PSX get KoF95 and SS3 while the Saturn NEVER got any SNK games here? KoF95 was released in Europe though.

Tbh I don't even know why SOE even bothered with KOF 95 ROM/Cart, when before it came to Pal land SNK and SOJ went public with the 1 Meg RAM cart- To me SOE of should have brought that over along with Metal Slug , instead of the one off ROM Cart and I never understand why SOE never brought Astal to Pal land :(. Still can anyone tell me why SOA never published Deep Fear for Saturn in America .

I just got the impression in the Saturn days SOA/SOE were beyond hopelessness and wanted the Saturn to fail

Thenewguy
02-04-2012, 05:09 PM
I'm pretty sure when I was reading through magazines from the UK, and the US, it seemed as though the Saturn kind of started dying out maybe 6 months to a year earlier in the US (coverage was dropping off in the US sooner, and user accounts seem to point to Tomb Raider, and Powerslave as being moderately difficult to get hold of it the US, whilst those games were easily available in the UK). All in all I'd imagine Deep Fear was just too late for the US.

Astal wasn't worth being released, its trash, and British magazines quite rightly reviewed import copies as trash before it was set to be released, I would take Deep Fear over 10 Astal's, the US had the short end of the stick in that case IMO.

High Velocity should've been released in Britain though, its nothing amazing but would've been a solid game to bulk up the library early on.

eddiespruce
02-04-2012, 05:11 PM
Astal wasn't worth being released, its trash.

Blasphemy!

:ban:

bultje112
02-04-2012, 05:16 PM
Tbh I don't even know why SOE even bothered with KOF 95 ROM/Cart, when before it came to Pal land SNK and SOJ went public with the 1 Meg RAM cart- To me SOE of should have brought that over along with Metal Slug , instead of the one off ROM Cart and I never understand why SOE never brought Astal to Pal land :(. Still can anyone tell me why SOA never published Deep Fear for Saturn in America .

I just got the impression in the Saturn days SOA/SOE were beyond hopelessness and wanted the Saturn to fail

because it got released in september 1998. when soa wasn't doing anything anymore for saturn. sega of europe ahs always been better in that regard. see also later dreamcast releases and megadrive releases

bultje112
02-04-2012, 05:17 PM
I'm pretty sure when I was reading through magazines from the UK, and the US, it seemed as though the Saturn kind of started dying out maybe 6 months to a year earlier in the US (coverage was dropping off in the US sooner, and user accounts seem to point to Tomb Raider, and Powerslave as being moderately difficult to get hold of it the US, whilst those games were easily available in the UK). All in all I'd imagine Deep Fear was just too late for the US.

Astal wasn't worth being released, its trash, and British magazines quite rightly reviewed import copies as trash before it was set to be released, I would take Deep Fear over 10 Astal's, the US had the short end of the stick in that case IMO.

High Velocity should've been released in Britain though, its nothing amazing but would've been a solid game to bulk up the library early on.



there is indeed also the point that european sales in 1997 and 1998 actually went up and in usa went down for saturn.

Team Andromeda
02-05-2012, 01:02 AM
Astal wasn't worth being released, its trash, and British magazines quite rightly reviewed import copies as trash before it was set to be released, I would take Deep Fear over 10 Astal's, the US had the short end of the stick in that case IMO.



? Astal is amazing game imo and the game reviewed well in the likes of SEGA pro and SEGA Saturn mag gave it a great write up


because it got released in september 1998. when soa wasn't doing anything anymore for saturn

SEGA America were still brining out game in 1998 though, I see no reason why they couldn't have done a limited run , more so with SEGA Europe already doing the translation

gamevet
02-05-2012, 01:15 AM
there is indeed also the point that european sales in 1997 and 1998 actually went up and in usa went down for saturn.

Sales of software?

The hardware was cleared out in 1997 and the only retailers that were still supporting the system were Toys R' Us, Electronics Boutique and Funcoland. Stores like Best Buy didn't support the Saturn in 1998.

bultje112
02-05-2012, 06:30 AM
Sales of software?

The hardware was cleared out in 1997 and the only retailers that were still supporting the system were Toys R' Us, Electronics Boutique and Funcoland. Stores like Best Buy didn't support the Saturn in 1998.

I meant software. saturn software were sales increased tremendously over 1997 and especially the fall and winter of 1997/1998 according to sega of europe, it was outselling n64 at least in the uk

and @ team andromeda. saturns last game in the usa was panzer saga and burning rangers in april of 1998 I believe. Deep fear was septemnber 1998.

j_factor
02-05-2012, 11:40 AM
The last US Saturn game was Magic Knight Rayearth, which came out after Deep Fear. Deep Fear was prototyped for a US release, they just decided against it.

gamevet
02-05-2012, 11:54 AM
I thought Magic Knight Rayearth came out in August of 1998.

*Edit* December 1998.

Thenewguy
02-05-2012, 12:03 PM
Astal is amazing game imoThen you must be blinded by graphics pretty easily because the level layouts in the game are really, really bad, i mean below mid 80s level bad, some of the levels literally don't have any design, they're just flat ground littered with enemies with pretty graphics covering everything up.

Even if you don't take the lazy level design into account, the game is too short, I've literally had more lasting fun from some demo's I've gotten free with magazines than Astal.


The last US Saturn game was Magic Knight Rayearth, which came out after Deep Fear. Deep Fear was prototyped for a US release, they just decided against it.Magic Knight Rayearth was delayed in the US for years due to disagreements between Working Designs and SoA, and Working Designs and the Magic Knight Rayearth licence holders. It was only the last Saturn game because they'd invested so much work and money into the game that they were intent on releasing it whether it sold well or not.

bultje112
02-05-2012, 12:38 PM
The last US Saturn game was Magic Knight Rayearth, which came out after Deep Fear. Deep Fear was prototyped for a US release, they just decided against it.

thanks. I didn't know this.

Da_Shocker
02-05-2012, 01:36 PM
@Thenewguy WD never had any issues with SoA for releasing MKR other than the spat at E3 but otherwise SoA didn't have any cause in that delay. WD had a hard drive crash and they had lost alot of data so that along with licensing issues is what delayed MKR. I found it funny though how they went through hell and high water to keep the names for MKR but when Silouette Mirage came out and the characters had biblical names they changed them w/o hesitation.

j_factor
02-05-2012, 02:26 PM
Then you must be blinded by graphics pretty easily because the level layouts in the game are really, really bad, i mean below mid 80s level bad, some of the levels literally don't have any design, they're just flat ground littered with enemies with pretty graphics covering everything up.

Even if you don't take the lazy level design into account, the game is too short, I've literally had more lasting fun from some demo's I've gotten free with magazines than Astal.

But the game got positive reviews!!! I like how in the N64 thread, review scores were bloody sacrosanct to you, and nobody was allowed to suggest that a game that got okay scores at the time might actually not be a good game. And now you've trashed two Saturn games that got good reviews.


Magic Knight Rayearth was delayed in the US for years due to disagreements between Working Designs and SoA, and Working Designs and the Magic Knight Rayearth licence holders. It was only the last Saturn game because they'd invested so much work and money into the game that they were intent on releasing it whether it sold well or not.

SoA had nothing to do with it. If you read the translation notes in the game's manual, they explain what happened with the game, and SoA is not mentioned. Your latter sentence is correct though, just not for the reason you stated.

NeoZeedeater
02-05-2012, 02:47 PM
I'm pretty sure when I was reading through magazines from the UK, and the US, it seemed as though the Saturn kind of started dying out maybe 6 months to a year earlier in the US (coverage was dropping off in the US sooner, and user accounts seem to point to Tomb Raider, and Powerslave as being moderately difficult to get hold of it the US, whilst those games were easily available in the UK). All in all I'd imagine Deep Fear was just too late for the US.
Tomb Raider was one of the best sellers on the system. By Saturn standards it was one of the easier games to find.

It's worth noting that Deep Fear was sold at EBs across North America. It was an import so it was priced high but at least it was easy to find if you didn't have an import store around.

gamevet
02-05-2012, 03:20 PM
Tomb Raider was one of the best sellers on the system. By Saturn standards it was one of the easier games to find.

Yeah. The game was delayed for about a week or 2 in North America, so I ended up with the Playstation version. I've seen a ton of used Tomb Raider copies for the Saturn and actually bought one a couple of months ago.


It's worth noting that Deep Fear was sold at EBs across North America. It was an import so it was priced high but at least it was easy to find if you didn't have an import store around.

I don't recall seeing that, but I did buy Shenmue 2 (Europe) at EB. I either ignored it or my nearby store didn't have Deep Fear.

Thenewguy
02-05-2012, 04:13 PM
But the game got positive reviews!!! And now you've trashed two Saturn games that got good reviews.No they didn't, they both got mixed reviews, that Shinobi game got loads of 6/10 and 3/5 scores along with the few high ratings, and a bunch of British mags went on about how mediocre Astal was based on import copies (I don't have access to enough US magazines from that time period to judge reaction, but Gameplayers at least gave Astal 66%).


Tomb Raider was one of the best sellers on the system. By Saturn standards it was one of the easier games to find.One of the best sellers on the system, in Europe

Most Americans don't even know that game came out on Saturn, or think it was ported from the Playstation version, and I've heard multiple accounts of people driving for hours to find copies of Tomb Raider and Powerslave on Saturn because stores were no longer stocking more than 1 or 2 copies of new Saturn games. The Saturn version of Tomb Raider didn't even enter the US multiformat charts from what I've seen, whilst the Saturn game shot up the charts at release in the UK.

NeoZeedeater
02-05-2012, 04:28 PM
I don't doubt at all that Saturn Tomb Raider sold better in Europe. Saturn stuff in general sold more there. And it's true most Americans aren't aware of the Saturn version because the system did so poorly. But, when compared with other NA Saturn games, it seemed as common as most other games.

If someone had a hard time finding it, it was likely because they had a hard time finding Saturn games in general. Now that I think about it, that was probably your main point anyway so my reply wasn't relevant. ;)

I vaguely remember one of the US-based magazines mentioning Tomb Raider being the best selling US Saturn game at one point. I wish I could remember if it was Next Gen, EGM, or Gamefan.

Thenewguy
02-05-2012, 04:37 PM
To be honest I probably need to check through more US magazines for Saturn info, I'm better for UK magazines, its a shame Retromags put all their stuff on Megaupload :(

Black_Tiger
02-05-2012, 05:22 PM
Most Americans don't even know that game came out on Saturn, or think it was ported from the Playstation version, and I've heard multiple accounts of people driving for hours to find copies of Tomb Raider and Powerslave on Saturn because stores were no longer stocking more than 1 or 2 copies of new Saturn games. The Saturn version of Tomb Raider didn't even enter the US multiformat charts from what I've seen, whilst the Saturn game shot up the charts at release in the UK.

I think that you just happened to speak to some casual video game players who dipped into Saturn gaming at the end of its life span. Tomb Raider came out very early on for Saturn, back when there were loads of Saturn games in stores everywhere. It has always been a pretty common high profile third party game and unless someone has horded them all up in recent years, should still be cheap and easy to find. I never met anyone who didn't know about the Saturn version.

I don't doubt that young people today, who casually look into retro gaming aren't familiar with the Saturn version, but these are the kind of people who are oblivious to most of everything before Playstation 2.

I don't think that Powerslave was released in Canada. From what I've seen of copies for sale online ever since it came out, I think that it didn't have a very high number of copies manufactured.

NeoZeedeater
02-05-2012, 05:31 PM
I don't think that Powerslave was released in Canada.
It was. I remember holding the box at EB. I was waiting for it to drop in price but it disappeared quickly so I never played that version until later on.

Team Andromeda
02-05-2012, 06:11 PM
Then you must be blinded by graphics pretty easily because the level layouts in the game are really, really bad, i mean below mid 80s level bad, some of the levels literally don't have any design, they're just flat ground littered with enemies with pretty graphics covering everything up

No I have my own opinion and I liked it . It was a classic 16 bit platformer with amazing 32 bit visuals a very good soundtrack and even a fun 2 player mode and unlike what you made out was reviewed well in UK publications , bar EDGE . But it's funny to see you above all people use reviews when it suits you. Now imo a game like Donkey Kong Country has the most simplistic level design and where amazing visuals cover up a simple and pretty poor game

Thenewguy
02-05-2012, 06:49 PM
Now imo a game like Donkey Kong Country has the most simplistic level design and where amazing visuals cover up a simple and pretty poor gameYou can't get much simpler than a straight line of flat ground from the start of the level to the end with no pitfalls, it simply isn't possible to get simpler than that. Period.

4xdX0o80ajM

Astal has the laziest POS level design of any scrolling platformer I've ever played

Kamahl
02-05-2012, 07:03 PM
Project MD has deeper gameplay than Astal. Both DKC and Astal are mediocre gameplay wise. They both have terrible art style too.

NeoZeedeater
02-05-2012, 07:04 PM
Astal's totally a style over substance game. It was one of the first Saturn games I rented back then and I was glad I didn't pay full price for it. I wasn't expecting a Sonic quality game but I was at least hoping for something in the Ristar range. It sure looked pretty, though.

StarMist
02-05-2012, 07:09 PM
There are pitfalls in lv 2. Advance about 8:00 into that video.
Not that they make a difference. I own this game and have mislaid it and don't really care. Scud would be another nominee for lv laziness but it's at least a lightgun compatible game, plus there are the pov corridors in lv 2 and naturally the pov boss fights for the lightgun.
A pedantic notice would be the flatness and simplicity likelier has something to do with an overweening accomodation for children rather than true laziness (because it's just as easy to design a slope, a bunch of pits, or a broken tangle of impossible platforming) but since the end result is a soporific bedtime tale of a game it hardly matters. Astal grunts too much into the bargain.

@ Kamahl = just saw your post. Project MD is better than lots of shit on lots of consoles. The problems are that it isn't great and Sik has some gaming discrimination: people forget how varied and challenging Super Mario 1 is because they've been warping through it for twenty years; it's the first in the series and dwarfed by SMB3 but still a Miyamoto game.

Black_Tiger
02-05-2012, 07:10 PM
Astal's totally a style over substance game. It was one of the first Saturn games I rented back then and I was glad I didn't pay full price for it. I wasn't expecting a Sonic quality game but I was at least hoping for something in the Ristar range. It sure looked pretty, though.

I also rented Astal bitd and didn't like it enough to bother playing through it. I've always meant to though and have reserved my judgement until I do. But it did seem to be an aesthetics over gameplay game that got hyped by being one of the earliest Japanese Saturn games.

Thenewguy
02-05-2012, 08:19 PM
Mean Machines Sega

http://i41.tinypic.com/zv3gvc.png
http://i39.tinypic.com/2s6k00m.png

Maximum

http://i42.tinypic.com/dp8nef.png

Official Sega Saturn Magazine thought it was decent but disappointing

http://i43.tinypic.com/24csdnq.png

I remember at least one more critical UK Astal review (on top of the US magazine Gameplayers giving it 66%, and apparently, according to TA EDGE gave it a bad review too, but I haven't seen that) unfortunately I've been searching for it and am having trouble finding it, will continue to look though.

NeoVamp
02-05-2012, 08:59 PM
I miss the days of reading Mean Machines, I could read those forever.

kool kitty89
02-05-2012, 10:47 PM
Have you looked at the Jaguar RISC instructions? It really looks like m68k or SH2 assembly. You can see the influence there.
You mentioned that before, and I also remember you initially not noticing the J-RISC assembly code in the Doom source since it's so similar to 68k.




I'm pretty sure when I was reading through magazines from the UK, and the US, it seemed as though the Saturn kind of started dying out maybe 6 months to a year earlier in the US (coverage was dropping off in the US sooner, and user accounts seem to point to Tomb Raider, and Powerslave as being moderately difficult to get hold of it the US, whilst those games were easily available in the UK). All in all I'd imagine Deep Fear was just too late for the US.
Didn't the Saturn not suffer from the horrible launch problems as in the US (in terms of overall PR/hype issues, retail conflicts, distribution issues, conflicts with 3rd party publishers, etc)
If so, then (on top of the stronger Sega brand loyalty) Europe would have gotten off to a much better start than in the US. (plus the 32x sold very poorly in Europe too iirc, so the PR backlash for dropping that also would have been softer -same for the Sega CD for that matter)



Most Americans don't even know that game came out on Saturn, or think it was ported from the Playstation version, and I've heard multiple accounts of people driving for hours to find copies of Tomb Raider and Powerslave on Saturn because stores were no longer stocking more than 1 or 2 copies of new Saturn games. The Saturn version of Tomb Raider didn't even enter the US multiformat charts from what I've seen, whilst the Saturn game shot up the charts at release in the UK.
Lack of marketing/consumer awareness of the software was certainly an issue with the Saturn, but in the case of Tomb Raider (whether or not people thought it was a "port"), it seems one of the biggest problems for the Saturn was actual retail availability. (again, this seems to vary significantly by region)





Yeah. The game was delayed for about a week or 2 in North America, so I ended up with the Playstation version. I've seen a ton of used Tomb Raider copies for the Saturn and actually bought one a couple of months ago.
It seems distribution problems (and relations with retailers) serious hurt Saturn software availability in the US (in some regions much more than others) . . . to the point where a significant number of buyers who actually were willing and able to buy Saturn stuff were unable to do so due to delays and shortages. (or specific retailers putting Saturn at low priority -in part due to Sega's PR problems with many retailers at that time, even relatively early in the Saturn's life)







I was responding to the notion that "Sony will only allow 3D games on the system" and that this policy resulted in certain PSX games being delayed or canceled. In any case, simply calling them anti-2D is very vague and meaningless without further detail. Your Playmore quote didn't strike me as particularly strong.
In that respect, you could argue the entire industry was (on average) anti-3D by 1995/96, in terms of pushing more and more for 3D and multimedia stuff and away from older 2D-centric style games.

There's no question that Sony was encouraging development of games with an emphasis on 3D (and multimedia), but the real question is what sort of hard limits (if any) Sony (in any region) imposed directly on developers, and also whether they did that as standard across the board or only did so to specific companies. (and, of course, whether it was every truly pushed against 2D rather than more specific reasons on a per-game basis)

And as you say, it seems to be pretty vague overall. (and all sources of such claims I've seen are similarly vague)

j_factor
02-06-2012, 12:22 AM
No they didn't, they both got mixed reviews, that Shinobi game got loads of 6/10 and 3/5 scores along with the few high ratings, and a bunch of British mags went on about how mediocre Astal was based on import copies (I don't have access to enough US magazines from that time period to judge reaction, but Gameplayers at least gave Astal 66%).

They both got mostly positive reviews, and in that thread you basically argued that mixed reviews with some high ratings was good.

Astal:

Video Games - 9/10
Gamepro - 4/5
Electric Playground - 8/10
Game Informer - 7.75/10
sega-saturn.com - 7.5/10
Allgame - 3.5/5
IGN retrospective: top ten Saturn games (#9) (http://retro.ign.com/articles/894/894643p1.html)

Shinobi Legions:

Gamepro - 5/5
GameFan - 93/100
EGM - 8/10
Electric Playground - 8.5/10
sega-saturn.com - 8/10
Allgame - 3.5/5

gamevet
02-06-2012, 12:47 AM
IGN retrospective: top ten Saturn games (#9) (http://retro.ign.com/articles/894/894643p1.html)



Astal should not be in the top 10 list for Saturn. It's a pretty game, but the gameplay isn't all that great.

j_factor
02-06-2012, 12:49 AM
Astal should not be in the top 10 list for Saturn. It's a pretty game, but the gameplay isn't all that great.

I'm not saying I agree.

Da_Shocker
02-06-2012, 01:12 AM
Uhm that resolution on VF2 is not right at all. Goodness it's way off.

Chilly Willy
02-06-2012, 01:22 AM
You mentioned that before, and I also remember you initially not noticing the J-RISC assembly code in the Doom source since it's so similar to 68k.

Hehehe - yeah, it's easy to mistake for a different dialect of 68k assembler... it's closer to "normal" 68k syntax than the MIT syntax. :D

kool kitty89
02-06-2012, 02:42 AM
Hehehe - yeah, it's easy to mistake for a different dialect of 68k assembler... it's closer to "normal" 68k syntax than the MIT syntax. :D
That's a nice feature that probably would have allowed experienced 68k assembly programmers transition more quickly to the architecture . . . at least if it weren't for the bugs. ;) (especially for early development for the system, when the bugs were poorly documented with limited or no workarounds available)

Actually, this very issue came up in a discussion on Atariage a couple years ago, with Jag programmers mentioning that the J-RISC instruction set itself was pretty easy to learn for any assembly language programmer at the time, but the bugs compromised that. (the ISA was easy to lean, but working with the actual hardware wasn't -MMU bugs including the problem with running code from main, pipeline stalls, prefetch bugs, etc -iirc the DSP is even more problematic than the GPU, and more than just the slow/gimped external bus)

Team Andromeda
02-06-2012, 10:17 AM
Mean Machines Sega

http://i41.tinypic.com/zv3gvc.png
http://i39.tinypic.com/2s6k00m.png

Maximum

http://i42.tinypic.com/dp8nef.png

Official Sega Saturn Magazine thought it was decent but disappointing

http://i43.tinypic.com/24csdnq.png

I remember at least one more critical UK Astal review (on top of the US magazine Gameplayers giving it 66%, and apparently, according to TA EDGE gave it a bad review too, but I haven't seen that) unfortunately I've been searching for it and am having trouble finding it, will continue to look though.

Maximum or SEGA Saturn mag never ever reviewed Astal at all, so you've lost me on that one . Sega Saturn Mag gave it a great write up though and as for Sega Mean Machines .No-one took that mag seriously after the split and it' piss poor review of Layered section showed how much the mag went down hill after the split . The likes of SEGA pro gave it 92.

BTW EDGE gave Astal a 5 , then again some of the N64 games you love reviewed bad in the likes of EDGE and other Mag's and seem to remember SEGA Meanmachines making fun of the N64 . So lets not go on reviews , please

Silanda
02-06-2012, 12:11 PM
Maximum or SEGA Saturn mag never ever reviewed Astal at all, so you've lost me on that one . Sega Saturn Mag gave it a great write up though and as for Sega Mean Machines .No-one took that mag seriously after the split and it' piss poor review of Layered section showed how much the mag went down hill after the split . The likes of SEGA pro gave it 92.

Were they the only mag that gave it a decent score? I also seem to remember it getting roundly panned by virtually everyone at the time. As for Mean Machines, plenty of people took its reviews seriously (more so than Sega Pro's IIRC) and in most cases they were quite fair. What isn't fair is to say that no one took the magazine seriously just because they happened to slam games that you personally liked but a lot of people found to be mediocre. So they didn't like Layer Section? Their criticisms have some merit. Unless you are a big shmup fan you may find the game to be a little short, lacking in variety, and a little bare bones in the porting department (and unless you play in tate mode it isn't even a perfect port). It's a very good game if you are a fan (and is one of my favourites) but it's unlikely to set the world on fire if you're not.

sheath
02-06-2012, 12:28 PM
Astal is unique for being one of the few scaling side scrollers and having the ability to pick up background sized objects and use them as weapons. The level designs may be simple but they are still competent. I enjoyed the music, the art design and the overall presentation of Astal and still do to this day. It is a beautiful game with plenty of character to make a play through worth what little time it takes. The later levels are stunning.

This is another case where some people get their panties in a bunch because they can only wrap their heads around so-called AAA titles, and anything that doesn't get that made up status is horrible, bad, mediocre or whatever. Astal isn't a system seller, big deal, it is still one of the better side scrollers of that generation and nothing on the PS1 or N64 is as colorful.

Silanda
02-06-2012, 12:49 PM
Astal is unique for being one of the few scaling side scrollers and having the ability to pick up background sized objects and use them as weapons. The level designs may be simple but they are still competent. I enjoyed the music, the art design and the overall presentation of Astal and still do to this day. It is a beautiful game with plenty of character to make a play through worth what little time it takes. The later levels are stunning.

This is another case where some people get their panties in a bunch because they can only wrap their heads around so-called AAA titles, and anything that doesn't get that made up status is horrible, bad, mediocre or whatever. Astal isn't a system seller, big deal, it is still one of the better side scrollers of that generation and nothing on the PS1 or N64 is as colorful.

Would you be so kind to a modern game that was beautiful looking but with gameplay that could best be described as meh? If not then it really isn't fair to criticise average review scores that were caused by the reviewers finding the gameplay dull. Seriously, most people who praise Astal seems to concentrate 90% on how good it looks rather than how it plays, but if someone is trying to write a fair review they can't just award 90%+ when one critical element, the gameplay, is percieved as being significantly inferior to a large number of earlier 16-bit releases. Especially back in the day when it was full price.

sheath
02-06-2012, 12:57 PM
God of War and whatever that psuedo sequel was with the chick.

Either way, I wasn't criticizing the reviews, Astal does have average gameplay with some notable unique elements. I am criticizing people who think the game is bad because it is average, that is illogical.

kokujin
02-06-2012, 01:02 PM
Uhm that resolution on VF2 is not right at all. Goodness it's way off.

What was it really?

TrekkiesUnite118
02-06-2012, 01:16 PM
What was it really?

In reality its 704x480. The IGN article says something wacky like 750x525. The vertical might be right for the PAL version, but that's not right for horizontal.

Da_Shocker
02-06-2012, 01:31 PM
I'm going to try out Astal again. I have been hesitant to play it due to only having an LCD at the time and older games tend to look horrible on them.

Thenewguy
02-06-2012, 01:39 PM
They both got mostly positive reviews, and in that thread you basically argued that mixed reviews with some high ratings was good.I've seen at least 4 which panned the game now, and half of your reviews are hardly glowing, with a bunch of 7s, the reviews breakdown looks akin to bloody Buck Bumble on the N64 (couple of 9s, bunch of 7s, some 5s etc), and you'd never hear me rambling on about how classic Buck Bumble is, if I ever bring it up I say its "kind of alright, but flawed" etc, you guys make out Astal is some obviously great game (in fact it looks to me as though Astal got less consistent reviews than Yoshi's Story did, and woe betide anyone who recommends that game around here).

And none of this is taking into account that you guys aren't recommending cheap and cheerful games, Astal goes for like $20-$25, and Shinobi Legions goes for ~$30

Also, look at some of those reviews -


Gamepro - "Astal looks good, but the short stages and repetitive hopping and bopping don't give the game much replay value."

Gamepro rated it 4/5 even even whilst admitting that it didn't play very well. :?


Maximum or SEGA Saturn mag never ever reviewed Astal at all, so you've lost me on that one.I'm not surprised, being that its painfully easy to lose you, even when posting a title, with a screenshot pertaining to the title underneath it :?

j_factor
02-06-2012, 02:26 PM
I've seen at least 4 which panned the game now, and half of your reviews are hardly glowing, with a bunch of 7s, the reviews breakdown looks akin to bloody Buck Bumble on the N64 (couple of 9s, bunch of 7s, some 5s etc), and you'd never hear me rambling on about how classic Buck Bumble is, if I ever bring it up I say its "kind of alright, but flawed" etc, you guys make out Astal is some obviously great game (in fact it looks to me as though Astal got less consistent reviews than Yoshi's Story did, and woe betide anyone who recommends that game around here).

And none of this is taking into account that you guys aren't recommending cheap and cheerful games, Astal goes for like $20-$25, and Shinobi Legions goes for ~$30

Also, look at some of those reviews -

You've moved the goalposts so much you've given me vertigo. :?

Thenewguy
02-06-2012, 02:34 PM
You said Astal got positive reviews, which it didn't, it got mixed reviews with some very negative ones. End of.

j_factor
02-06-2012, 02:38 PM
So did Xena, but your argument was that the presence of positive reviews was enough.

Besides, dig deep enough and there's negative reviews for pretty much any game out there. By and large, Astal got positive reviews.

Thenewguy
02-06-2012, 02:57 PM
So did Xena, but your argument was that the presence of positive reviews was enough.
No, I never even recommended Xena, it was not on my original recommendations list, I added it later on to prove a point when, as usual you lot started adding mediocre games to pad out, and I quote -


Doing it your way -

3rd party N64 games which had mixed scores (dropping to games which had some 6s and 7s) that were either exclusives, were originals designed for the systems and ported later, were available on N64 and PC but not other consoles, or were games which were ported to N64 but had notable upgrades and additions list
I said the game had mixed scores, and I said I didn't want to put it into my original list "for obvious reasons"

I had zero interest in dropping down to the quality level of Xena, but everyone else replied to me with lists of games which had mixed or negative reviews so I dropped standards to equalise fairly.


Being that you guys listed Gamecube games which were clearly worse than Xena: Talismen of Fate, I decided to include it

StarMist
02-06-2012, 03:26 PM
Gamepro rated it 4/5 even even whilst admitting that it didn't play very well. :?
Gamepro's 'criticism' was the rubbish of the day, or rather of 16 bit gaming's dusk: everything "hop-and-bop" (a dismissive term on its own) was abused as if there's innately more to a game that involves holding a gun or picking up things--the latter which we all know Astal does incorporate, an inaccuracy typical of Gamepro.
Astal's level design on its own isn't damning, the enemy placement is, that's what determines variety and challenge and in Astal enemies seem placed in the most neutral possible areas so as not to endanger his jumping, hasten his decisions, or make him go too long w/o something to grab. It reminds me of the 32 bit Megaman games (though they're all bloody bland), hold right till one reaches the boss. "Damning" though is a bit harsh, thankfully it is easy rather than stocked with cheap hits or whatever else so the graphics can be enjoyed on a breeze through.

Black_Tiger
02-06-2012, 04:01 PM
I remember Astal getting mixed reviews, but it seemed like the typical 'for the right audience' game. The impression I got from the reviews was that it was a great game for people who could appreciate it, but should be passed over by everyone else. Too many magazines would let people who hated a particular style of game or even a console review for that format.

bultje112
02-06-2012, 05:19 PM
I remember Astal getting mixed reviews, but it seemed like the typical 'for the right audience' game. The impression I got from the reviews was that it was a great game for people who could appreciate it, but should be passed over by everyone else. Too many magazines would let people who hated a particular style of game or even a console review for that format.

exatcly. in the 90s and early 2000s this was very common. also the reason why shenmue got such mixed reviews. I remember 2 years ago a very big dutch videogame magazine had some aniverary and they interviewed all the reviewers and one of them said the thing I still feel bad about every day is giving shenmue a 7.8 I simply didn't have the patience back then and didn't understand such a game. still people ask about it daily on the street why I gave it a 7.8.

I don't take any pro review serious that came from the 90s. look at how much sonic jam got hammered or in fact look at any saturn review on gamespot other than saga and some others. they simply hated sega and didn't understand any of it's games

sheath
02-06-2012, 05:25 PM
Jeff Gerstmann and his buddies at Gamespot hated Sega and anything that wasn't Nintendo, or a replica of Zelda on a Playstation platform. Honestly, I don't know why anybody considers reviews scores relevant to anything at all. They have always been arbitrary opinion statements converted to subjective number "quality".

Seriously, I have editorials from 1990 with Ed Semrad and Steve Harris of EGM explaining that magazines function primarily as free advertising for companies. Why do you think they give good reviews? Hint: These people are not gamers by and large.

Kamahl
02-06-2012, 05:49 PM
The best reviewer I've ever seen is egoraptor in his sequelitis series, just 2 episodes and he makes more sense than any other reviewer I've ever seen.
He actually points out game design choices and why they are bad or not.

EDIT: 3 episodes, he made one on castlevania 4 too.

Thenewguy
02-06-2012, 06:03 PM
Astal's level design on its own isn't damningI disagree, Astal level design is so awful that it is totally damning, in fact I don't even class many of Astal's stages as having a design (some are flat ground with haphazardly placed enemies!), some of the levels have more in common with scrolling beat-em-ups than platform games (except in Astal's case there's no real combos, or variety of enemy behavior, two things which help to make Beat-em-ups more playable), seriously, that first level essentially is a beat-em-up level, you shuffle forwards until you come to an enemy, you then hit the enemy or throw it, then you move on to the next enemy.

Your criticism does work for some stages, because there are a few which are focussed on jumping between moving platforms which would have greatly benefited from better enemy placement, but more than anything else it feels as though every level in Astal is themed around 1 platformer staple, and 1 alone, you either get flat ground and enemy throwing, or you get a level totally fixated on simplistic platform jumping, or you get a level fixated on walking underneath dropping hazards, or a level totally fixated on timed walking, instead of most platform games from the NES era and up which would throw all of those elements and more into every single level.


look at how much sonic jam got hammered or in fact look at any saturn review on gamespot other than saga and some others. they simply hated sega and didn't understand any of it's games.Its not worth mentioning Gamespot around here, their reviews hold zero weight with anyone, not for Sega, not for Nintendo, not for Sony.

sheath
02-06-2012, 06:10 PM
The best reviewer I've ever seen is egoraptor in his sequelitis series, just 2 episodes and he makes more sense than any other reviewer I've ever seen.
He actually points out game design choices and why they are bad or not.

EDIT: 3 episodes, he made one on castlevania 4 too.

I agree, aside from the gratuitous verbal violence I think the sequelitis series is the best available right now.

Team Andromeda
02-06-2012, 06:12 PM
I've seen at least 4 which panned the game now, and half of your reviews are hardly glowing, with a bunch of 7s, the reviews breakdown looks akin to bloody Buck Bumble on the N64 (couple of 9s, bunch of 7s, some 5s etc), and you'd never hear me rambling on about how classic Buck Bumble is, if I ever bring it up I say its "kind of alright, but flawed" etc, you guys make out Astal is some obviously great game (in fact it looks to me as though Astal got less consistent reviews than Yoshi's Story did, and woe betide anyone who recommends that game around here

Well that depends lots of games will get mixed reviews that some consider a classic while others feel is a letdown - Gunstar Heroes got a 6 in Edge and the game was knocked in a few other reviews and some consider is a classic . I've seen you bring up a few N64 racers -the likes of Beetle Adventure Racing which I saw getting mixed reviews and if we listen to Mean Machines SEGA the N64 didn't have any decent racer at all and why bother when you had Rally Do you agree with that ?.
I've seen you have a dig at Sonic R, when in most of the major gaming mag's it got high reviews , even the likes of Mischief Makers got very mixed reviews


I'm not surprised, being that its painfully easy to lose you, even when posting a title

Earth to Mars . You've yet to even post a single scan of Maximum and the scan from SEGA Saturn isn't even Astal , why you want to bring Shinobi into I do not know. Both mag's never reviewed the Astal.


And none of this is taking into account that you guys aren't recommending cheap and cheerful games, Astal goes for like $20-$25, and Shinobi Legions goes for ~$30

Are you even serious ?. This isn't even a top about a game value and what that has to do with a game being any good or not is lost on me .

Kamahl
02-06-2012, 06:20 PM
I agree, aside from the gratuitous verbal violence
It's unnecessary but sure increases his audience ;).

StarMist
02-06-2012, 07:31 PM
I disagree, Astal level design is so awful that it is totally damning, in fact I don't even class many of Astal's stages as having a design (some are flat ground with haphazardly placed enemies!), My next phrase was about the poor enemy placement so I think we're pretty much agreed here. Also, it is the first lv. More to the point is >>>


some of the levels have more in common with scrolling beat-em-ups than platform games (except in Astal's case there's no real combos, or variety of enemy behavior, two things which help to make Beat-em-ups more playable), seriously, that first level essentially is a beat-em-up level, you shuffle forwards until you come to an enemy, you then hit the enemy or throw it, then you move on to the next enemy.
This is correct. The problem is that I think you're magnifying the absent diversifications. (Before we get further do remember my earliest comment on Astal, that's unchanged). Much of Shinobi 3 is flat left to right or merely interspersed with easy jumps; in the horseriding lv the jumps are almost meaningless since the spear fences won't individually kill you. Shinobi 3 is just better regarded because the mechanics are more "adult" (as I said before regarding hop and bop play); they aren't more diversified till the later levels force them to be. The other thing Shinobi has over Astal is enemy placement/behaviour (these are interdependent): enemies in trees exploit their advantage, some rush forth whilst others hold firm or retreat, and many times they attack in gangs. Another exm would be Battletoads's first lv. Yeah, a pitfall or two and some meaningless shifts in elevation, but it's still pretty much just brawler play in a platform. The quality difference betwixt its and Astal's 1st lv isn't due to lv design, it's due to game design: Battletoads has running, the consequent ram and extended leap, and the ability to pick up a weapon.
As you pointed out that first lv is pretty much a brawler lv, but brawlers aren't damned for flat linearity, they are (or aren't) for their move diversity, enemy diversity and behaviour/placement, and of course co-op quality. Astal's being so poor in all those other respects is what damns it to the breezethrough bin.

Thenewguy
02-06-2012, 08:08 PM
Well that depends lots of games will get mixed reviews that some consider a classic while others feel is a letdown - Gunstar Heroes got a 6 in Edge and the game was knocked in a few other reviews and some consider is a classic. I've seen you bring up a few N64 racers -the likes of Beetle Adventure Racing which I saw getting mixed reviewsWow, yeah, loook at all those mixed reviews -_-'

http://www.gamerankings.com/n64/196751-beetle-adventure-racing/articles.html


if we listen to Mean Machines SEGA the N64 didn't have any decent racer at all and why bother when you had Rally Do you agree with that?.Nobody cares what a single format magazine has to say about the competition, seriously, people expect them to take lighthearted jabs at the competition, calling the Playstation "hilarious" things like the "Greystation" or the C64 the "Commode 64"


Earth to Mars . You've yet to even post a single scan of Maximum and the scan from SEGA Saturn isn't even Astal, why you want to bring Shinobi into I do not know. Both mag's never reviewed the Astal.This conversation was about TWO Saturn games remember?! the Maximum scan is, funnily enough directly below where it says "Maximum" I never said it was for Astal.

kool kitty89
02-06-2012, 10:21 PM
In reality its 704x480. The IGN article says something wacky like 750x525. The vertical might be right for the PAL version, but that's not right for horizontal.
IIRC, even for PAL, the max vertical resolution is 512 lines (interlaced) . . . and that's not getting into NTSC and PAL TV/monitor overscan issues, dot clocks (for horizontal resolution), etc, etc. (though in the PAL case, most/all TVs should show at least 512 visible lines interlaced -horizontal res is another story though)


The best reviewer I've ever seen is egoraptor in his sequelitis series, just 2 episodes and he makes more sense than any other reviewer I've ever seen.
He actually points out game design choices and why they are bad or not.

EDIT: 3 episodes, he made one on castlevania 4 too.
I definitely agree here . . . very sound and fair reviews that include both objective and well-noted subjective viewpoints (and comments on commonly held views).
Albeit, these are retrospective reviews too, so the context is different from new releases being reviewed "in the heat of the moment" (more or less).

With new releases, there's many mitigating factors even for relatively fair and well-informed reviewers: for one thing, there's almost always the "wow" factor (impressive graphics/sound/etc/etc) and there's the limitation of the game only being comparable to other current (and older) pre-existing releases rather than having more contrast with old releases.
Then again, the "wow" factor can still be present for certain retro reviewers too, especially those who are impressed by games pushing the limits of a given system (regardless of how primitive it is), and there's also the potential issue of nostalgia skewing perspective too.





I disagree, Astal level design is so awful that it is totally damning, in fact I don't even class many of Astal's stages as having a design (some are flat ground with haphazardly placed enemies!), some of the levels have more in common with scrolling beat-em-ups than platform games (except in Astal's case there's no real combos, or variety of enemy behavior, two things which help to make Beat-em-ups more playable), seriously, that first level essentially is a beat-em-up level, you shuffle forwards until you come to an enemy, you then hit the enemy or throw it, then you move on to the next enemy.

Your criticism does work for some stages, because there are a few which are focussed on jumping between moving platforms which would have greatly benefited from better enemy placement, but more than anything else it feels as though every level in Astal is themed around 1 platformer staple, and 1 alone, you either get flat ground and enemy throwing, or you get a level totally fixated on simplistic platform jumping, or you get a level fixated on walking underneath dropping hazards, or a level totally fixated on timed walking, instead of most platform games from the NES era and up which would throw all of those elements and more into every single level.
It seems that the aesthetic aspects are the only real strengths of the game (which is kind of an obvious comment given this discussion) . . . but what I find odd is that many jump on games like DKC as being superficial as such too (and, honestly, those games have considerably more complex level design and exploration aspects than Astal, at least from what I can see), but several of the same people on this board who commonly criticize DKC are defending/praising Astal. (granted, a good chunk are also confirming that it's pretty mediocre aside from the aesthetics)

That said, aesthetics ARE important too . . . they really can make the difference from a totally boring and bland mediocre/generic game and one that's at least reasonably enjoyable. (or from an ugly game with bad sound/music that's well-designed to a truly great game -or an average game to a good game)
Granted, it varies somewhat depending how much aesthetics really matter to a given person (be it sound and/or visuals) and the art and music style preferences of them too. (good quality of a certain style might not match up well either if it's still a style that's disliked)




Nobody cares what a single format magazine has to say about the competition, seriously, people expect them to take lighthearted jabs at the competition, calling the Playstation "hilarious" things like the "Greystation" or the C64 the "Commode 64"
Yes, and cases where format-specific (especially company-specific) magazines that actually have fair and balanced articles are certainly the exceptions to the rule and are correspondingly rare. (so yes, format/company-specific magazines really shouldn't be considered for 3rd party content reviews, or even for 1st party reviews in some cases -as they may be inflated)




No, I never even recommended Xena, it was not on my original recommendations list, I added it later on to prove a point when, as usual you lot started adding mediocre games to pad out, and I quote -
I too find it very frustrating when the context in a discussion is lost like that . . . even when I cut back and simplify my comments/arguments (and omit counter-arguments and exceptions from within my own comments), I still have problems with some people not getting the point. (let alone the fact that I might argue things from various points of view in different contexts -with different resulting arguments; which again, I've intentionally cut back on . . . more due to frustration of repeating myself than trying to cut back on sheer volume of text ;))




I'm not surprised, being that its painfully easy to lose you, even when posting a title, with a screenshot pertaining to the title underneath it :?
I have the same problem . . . even in cases where I intentionally simplify my posts (and refrain from multiple responses -unlike some other, obviously more complex and lengthy examples), and it eventually gets to the point where I don't feel like trying anymore. (there's very few people on this board -or any forum for that matter- who I get like that with, and of those that do, there's only a few who don't appear to be simple stubborn/ignorant/troll types -albeit those few cases of apparently intelligent/interesting people are all the more frustrating -as they often have interesting things to say at some points, but get oddly unreasonable in others)

This is also a different case from people who get overly aggressive/emotional/defensive (or profane) in arguments . . . I have less of a problem with those cases. (I can ignore that and keep going with the discussion -some people just get that way)








I remember Astal getting mixed reviews, but it seemed like the typical 'for the right audience' game. The impression I got from the reviews was that it was a great game for people who could appreciate it, but should be passed over by everyone else. Too many magazines would let people who hated a particular style of game or even a console review for that format.
This is a good point: It's nice to see reviewers make legitimate criticisms about the game as well as pointing out its merits and the context of its merits. That could still mean an overall low review score for niche games that have very limited/specific audiences (since reviews would be rated from the perspective of the average gamer -as best to the ability of the reviewer to depict that), but they could certainly make explicit recommendations to "hardcore" fans of said niche. (that's also why having an "overall" score in addition to sub-categorical rankings is very important)

Of course, you very rarely see this in reviews, especially commercial ones . . . usually either the reviewer fundamentally dislikes a game/genre and pans it, or they like it and point out the positive aspects (or in-between, but not both). The converse of that would the the odd case of reviewers who really love
certain niche games and will give unusually high scores that won't be relevant to most users. (for that matter, if you took the average preference of users on Sega-16, you wouldn't get anywhere near a good representation of the average gamer preference -or even the average retro-friendly gamer perspective for that matter)







Would you be so kind to a modern game that was beautiful looking but with gameplay that could best be described as meh? If not then it really isn't fair to criticise average review scores that were caused by the reviewers finding the gameplay dull. Seriously, most people who praise Astal seems to concentrate 90% on how good it looks rather than how it plays, but if someone is trying to write a fair review they can't just award 90%+ when one critical element, the gameplay, is percieved as being significantly inferior to a large number of earlier 16-bit releases. Especially back in the day when it was full price.
Yes I agree, it's quite comparable to modern games with "style over substance", though, obviously, the preference for said "style" would depend whether one was blown away by the graphics. (someone who generally didn't like the popular modern-gen genres/styles but is a 2D game fan would obviously find something like Astal more impressive than any of the various visually stunning modern games -aside from a handful of niche high-end 2D games)

It would be quite hipocritical to make take sides on one issue withotu considering the other, regardless of personal preference. (ie you may strongly prefer 2D or 3D, but not recognizing the significant from a 3rd person perspective would be folly in such context)







Astal is unique for being one of the few scaling side scrollers and having the ability to pick up background sized objects and use them as weapons. The level designs may be simple but they are still competent. I enjoyed the music, the art design and the overall presentation of Astal and still do to this day. It is a beautiful game with plenty of character to make a play through worth what little time it takes. The later levels are stunning.

This is another case where some people get their panties in a bunch because they can only wrap their heads around so-called AAA titles, and anything that doesn't get that made up status is horrible, bad, mediocre or whatever. Astal isn't a system seller, big deal, it is still one of the better side scrollers of that generation and nothing on the PS1 or N64 is as colorful.
That's not the context of this argument at all: the argument was that Astal was getting unrealistic praise and was indeed mediocre in some major aspects (by common standards), but not that it was a terrible game overall. (especially if you're the type to be taken by "eye candy" ;) -especially for genres/styles that he/she has a bias/preference for)

sheath
02-06-2012, 10:25 PM
That's not the context of this argument at all: the argument was that Astal was getting unrealistic praise and was indeed mediocre in some major aspects (by common standards), but not that it was a terrible game overall. (especially if you're the type to be taken by "eye candy" ;) -especially for genres/styles that he/she has a bias/preference for)

I have seen Astal referred to as terrible, bad, and some other inappropriately negative term repeatedly in this forum and this very thread. My response was primarily aimed at that, and the fact that Astal is in fact an average side scroller with unique aspects.

StarMist
02-07-2012, 12:13 AM
I have seen Astal referred to as terrible, bad, and some other inappropriately negative term repeatedly in this forum and this very thread. My response was primarily aimed at that, and the fact that Astal is in fact an average side scroller with unique aspects.
No, it's below avg with unique aspects and good graphical presentation. Those may elevate it to avg but it is not avg with (= 'plus') unique aspects and good graphics. Furthermore the story's painful and his incessant grunting an annoyance--I can't recall a note of the music for it. Sure worse games have been extolled but that's far from the point.

j_factor
02-07-2012, 12:48 AM
No, I never even recommended Xena, it was not on my original recommendations list, I added it later on to prove a point when, as usual you lot started adding mediocre games to pad out, and I quote

I said the game had mixed scores, and I said I didn't want to put it into my original list "for obvious reasons"

I had zero interest in dropping down to the quality level of Xena, but everyone else replied to me with lists of games which had mixed or negative reviews so I dropped standards to equalise fairly.

Except that's a straw man, "my way" was to list games I actually played and enjoyed. Nobody else was going off scores, and I stated as much. I'm sure not going to spend an inordinate amount of time researching contemporary reviews every time I mention my opinion of a game, and I'm also not psychic so I had no reasonable way of knowing if any of the games I listed had mixed scores. I did notice that throughout that thread you never actually stated you enjoyed Xena. If I have played a game multiple times, and like it (or not), I'm not sure what "this British magazine gave it X/10" is supposed to prove, like that's going to make me suddenly change my mind or something. I wonder if you actually play games, or just read about them.


It seems that the aesthetic aspects are the only real strengths of the game (which is kind of an obvious comment given this discussion) . . . but what I find odd is that many jump on games like DKC as being superficial as such too (and, honestly, those games have considerably more complex level design and exploration aspects than Astal, at least from what I can see), but several of the same people on this board who commonly criticize DKC are defending/praising Astal. (granted, a good chunk are also confirming that it's pretty mediocre aside from the aesthetics)

I wouldn't say that's the only strength, I liked the different attacks you can do and the mechanics with the bird, and the optional co-op. Also I don't think the levels are as bad as you guys are saying; in particular I liked the one with the volcano in the background and igneous rocks raining down on you, and the one where you ride that creature across the swamp. That's not to say it's a mind-blowing game (lest someone take that that wrong way). The thing about DKC isn't that it's superficial, it's that the graphics aren't actually that great anyway. And even then I wouldn't call it horrible, just mediocre. Any knocking of DKC is more a reaction against the incredible hype and praise it got at the time, which was totally undeserved IMO.

StarMist
02-07-2012, 01:17 AM
@ DKC = everybody here likes to praise the Genesis for its quick games but nobody ever acknowledges just how fast DKC can be burnt through. The hype was simply the result of Nintendo's putting so much money behind it.

Tom M.
02-07-2012, 06:21 AM
Playstation for sure had enough hardware resources to do a flawless hyper-hyper 2D game like Raiden III... The question is: who really needed this type of performance in mid 90s... Sega Mega Drive was already proving what the hi-tec 2D school is... I mean... too much is too much... start adding more backgrounds.. mor ecolours.. more sprites and the gameplay is lost... you are in a mess, in a dump... no sence...

And yes, screw any optical drive based system! No more loading screens please...

Team Andromeda
02-07-2012, 06:35 AM
Wow, yeah, loook at all those mixed reviews
No score from CVG or EDGE ?. Didn't the likes of Electronic playground give Astal a good score ?. I'm sure I could post some great reviews of Astal from gaming press if I really looked . We can all use reviews when its suits us, but that's best left to GameFAQ's imo.


Nobody cares what a single format magazine has to say about the competition

Depends... I always thought Saturn Mag were fair to the PS in a lot ways, Superplay were pretty fair to the Mega Drive . And after the split no-one really cared that much what Mean Machines SEGA had to say on a lot of things, some of their Mega CD, Saturn reviews were so way off the mark it was untrue.


This conversation was about TWO Saturn games remember

? It was about Astal , yet you then bring in scans of Shinobi for some unknown reason, even more baffling when nobody was talking of the game and you we doing your little wind up post about Astal, but Like I say Maximum or SEGA Saturn Mag never actually reviewed the game . Since you seem to like Maximum remind me again what they gave Daytona USA on the Saturn a 5 out of 5 I seem to remember, yet another Saturn game you like to knock.

Funny how we can all use reviews when its suits us

Team Andromeda
02-07-2012, 06:47 AM
It seems that the aesthetic aspects are the only real strengths of the game (which is kind of an obvious comment given this discussion) . . . but what I find odd is that many jump on games like DKC as being superficial as such too (and, honestly, those games have considerably more complex level design and exploration aspects than Astal, at least from what I can see), but several of the same people on this board who commonly criticize DKC are defending/praising Astal. (granted, a good chunk are also confirming that it's pretty mediocre aside from the aesthetics)

Coming from the guy that got so much to say on machines and games you've never owned , I find it quite ironic myself and that's to overlook the complete difference of playing the games at the time, compare to now on Emu - where the impact and wow factor just isn't there .DNK was like Clockwork Night imo simple games dressed up in lovely graphics but deep down boring and simplistic. Astal was just so much better at at least had some nice level design and the odd challenging platform jump


I have the same problem . . . even in cases where I intentionally simplify my posts

Be serious now. Everyone knows your way... Leave a topic dead for a few days and then come in with a 500 + word replay (in most cases bringing in games and other systems that have no relevance to the topic at hand) and just hope people lose the will to live and respond to the post.

Kamahl
02-07-2012, 06:53 AM
@ DKC = everybody here likes to praise the Genesis for its quick games but nobody ever acknowledges just how fast DKC can be burnt through.
A game being quick isn't a praise. A game being a quick and fun ride is a praise. DKC is boring in gameplay, art and music. That's it's problem. It puts me to sleep.

sheath
02-07-2012, 10:18 AM
No, it's below avg with unique aspects and good graphical presentation. Those may elevate it to avg but it is not avg with (= 'plus') unique aspects and good graphics. Furthermore the story's painful and his incessant grunting an annoyance--I can't recall a note of the music for it. Sure worse games have been extolled but that's far from the point.

I liked that it was equal parts brawler and equal parts platformer and never noticed that the level design was overly simplistic while I was playing through it. I also found it plenty challenging, particularly in the middle levels with more platforming than fighting.

But, if calling Astal below average also leaves Donkey Kong Country as a below average forgettable platformer I will let this criticism stand. ;)

Thenewguy
02-07-2012, 11:57 PM
"my way" was to list games I actually played and enjoyed.The only reason why I felt the need to bring up average review scores at the time was because I knew that if someone collated every non-Sega format game which is criticised on this forum the average professional scores of those games would be 8s and 9s, conversely if someone collatted the games which were highly praised here half the games would have average scores of 6s and 7s. It seems a bit coincidental to me that you can bet on this rule to come up every time.


No score from CVG or EDGE?.According to Mobygames CVG gave Beetle Adventure Racing a 7/10, which is hardly bad as a lowest review.


? It was about Astal , yet you then bring in scans of Shinobi for some unknown reason, even more baffling when nobody was talking of the game and you we doing your little wind up post about Astal.

:z:


And now you've trashed two Saturn games that got good reviews.

--------------------------------


Since you seem to like Maximum remind me again what they gave Daytona USA on the Saturn a 5 out of 5 I seem to remember, yet another Saturn game you like to knock.And? You talk like I'd have a problem with them rating it 5/5 in 1995

Sure I knock it, because it was rushed, looked bad and gave the Saturn a bad name, it still plays well though, and its not like there was a ton of impressive competition out on either system at the time. I wouldn't have given it a 5/5 but if we're talking about a 5 point scoring system I would've probably gone with a 4/5 (in 1995), a small difference of opinion between reviews is to be expected.

Team Andromeda
02-08-2012, 08:33 AM
:z:

Can't answer the question can we .


According to Mobygames CVG gave Beetle Adventure Racing a 7/10, which is hardly bad as a lowest review

That be very clever since CVG only marked games out 5 stars :rofl:. Beetle Adv racing in fact got a 3 out of 5 and CVG finished off the review with


"Not the most amazing driving game ever, but something a little bit different", I'm sure another Saturn game you like to bash Sonic R scored better, but there we go

So next time you want to do your little wind up Saturn posts at least get your facts and Mag scans right . I can spare you the effort right now, Maximum or SEGA Saturn mag never ever reviewed Astal.

kool kitty89
02-08-2012, 05:18 PM
@ DKC = everybody here likes to praise the Genesis for its quick games but nobody ever acknowledges just how fast DKC can be burnt through. The hype was simply the result of Nintendo's putting so much money behind it.
Putting money behind it certainly helped, but it obviously was the graphics (and to lesser extent sound) that made that spending worthwhile. (a game needs to be attractive and marketable for hype to really take hold)

On top of the aesthetics, the game itself is more than decent, though it's hardly the best platformer on the system in terms of gameplay or design (by almost any metric -aside from personal preference from select individuals).

Speaking on a personal note, I like the first 2 DKC games much more than Super Mario World (or some other 2D mario games for that matter), both in terms of aesthetics (including music) and gameplay, but I don't like them as much as some of the 2D Sonic games (especially 3&K) or Yoshi's Island. Again, that's on a totally personal opinion, not judging from a mass-market perspective in the least. (or from a general retro-gamer perspective either -since my tastes aren't in line with the average retro gamer, especially when it comes to certain 2D genres -including platformers)



A game being quick isn't a praise. A game being a quick and fun ride is a praise. DKC is boring in gameplay, art and music. That's it's problem. It puts me to sleep.
I never had that problem . . . the only problems I ever had with the game were limited exploration compared to some other platformers of the time (albeit this is more of a critical complaint in hindsight and something I noticed much less as a kid -and the sequel is better in that respect too) and for the difficulty in certain areas. (then again, difficulty -and types of difficulty- are the sticking points for my enjoying many 2D platformers of the time -given I'm not particularly good at the average platform games, but I'm decent at certain types and especially those with certain aspects like Sonic 3 and Yoshi's island's forgiving nature with saves, infinite continues and the ring mechanics of all Sonic games -and the similar baby mario mechanic, which is even more forgiving IMO -short of that, a large life bar like Mega Man is somewhat forgiving too, but typical 1/few hit games are much more annoying, as ar life-bar games with much higher difficulty -like some Super Star Wars games and the later MMX games -DKC is only a 2-hit game, but the power-ups are common enough to make it much more forgiving in many levels, making the game more playable and fun for me than something like Super Mario World -some other game design aspects cater to that too)

Thenewguy
02-08-2012, 10:23 PM
Can't answer the question can we.:huh:

For your sake I really hope you're just trolling me


That be very clever since CVG only marked games out 5 stars :rofl:. Beetle Adv racing in fact got a 3 out of 5 and CVG finished off the review withLike I said, I'm going by what was written on Mobygames, so you could well be right, where it comes to the "CVG only marked out of 5 stars" you're wrong as per usual though, CVG had loads of different marking systems during the magazines lifespan, at one stage they didn't even have a conclusion mark IIRC, and there was definitely a long time where they were marking out of 100, I noticed that it wasn't a 5 score, but wasn't sure if they'd changed their system again or not during that stage in the magazines lifespan.

Team Andromeda
02-09-2012, 01:22 AM
Like I said, I'm going by what was written on Mobygames

That's the trouble when we rely on our old friend Google .


"CVG only marked out of 5 stars" you're wrong as per usual though

The only one that's been wrong in this thread is you. Yes I'm quite aware CVG had different review systems over the years , but we're talking of the Saturn and N64 era when CVG used the 5 star system . I do know mate... trust me, I have over 15 years worth of CVG mag's stored in my shed.

Barone
02-10-2012, 09:03 AM
Hey, guys...

Anyone could, please, compare the PS1 and Saturn versions of Galaxy Fight?

Thanks...

Black_Tiger
02-10-2012, 11:14 AM
Hey, guys...

Anyone could, please, compare the PS1 and Saturn versions of Galaxy Fight?

Thanks...

Since Galaxy Fight doesn't use a ram cart, they might be pretty close.

Did Waku Waku 7 come out for Playstation?

Barone
02-10-2012, 12:30 PM
Waku Waku 7? No, very sadly.
My guess is that the PS1 could never handle those giant sprites like Marurun's and Fernandez's due to RAM limitation. The use of cart RAM is obligatory in the Saturn version IIRC.

Thanks for the Galaxy Fight info, but I still hope that someone else could go deeper in the analysis.

TrekkiesUnite118
02-10-2012, 12:43 PM
Isn't Waku Waku 7 notorious for being a poor port on the Saturn due to the really bad quality of the backgrounds?

Black_Tiger
02-10-2012, 01:37 PM
Isn't Waku Waku 7 notorious for being a poor port on the Saturn due to the really bad quality of the backgrounds?

That would have been all the more reason to compare it to a PSX version. :)

Da_Shocker
02-12-2012, 11:35 PM
Waku Waku 7? No, very sadly.
My guess is that the PS1 could never handle those giant sprites like Marurun's and Fernandez's due to RAM limitation. The use of cart RAM is obligatory in the Saturn version IIRC.

Thanks for the Galaxy Fight info, but I still hope that someone else could go deeper in the analysis.

It's not ram issues its the PSx's GPU issues.

StarMist
02-12-2012, 11:55 PM
Waku Waku 7? No, very sadly.
My guess is that the PS1 could never handle those giant sprites like Marurun's and Fernandez's due to RAM limitation. The use of cart RAM is obligatory in the Saturn version IIRC.WW7's the worst sprite port on the Saturn, it needed the 4 MEG cart. The BGs pretty much look like the characters do in Rabbit when close up. Also has long loads.


Thanks for the Galaxy Fight info, but I still hope that someone else could go deeper in the analysis.I don't know this game well on PS other than that it has long loads twixt rounds and fights--long by early PS standards. This is aggravated by the absence of a character select shortcut (not on Saturn either) and no character continue option, one returns to the character select screen even if one just wants to try again with the same character.
If you can find a video you're sure isn't emulation I can go by that, but I think the graphics are spot on, they certainly weren't demanding to begin with. Possibly there may be some scaling lag as this is a game with no borders, the fighters can keep running in either direction forever, but I doubt it.
Neither version has any Options mode bonuses, not even a BGM/SFX volume which could sorely have been used for G Done's crappy rap. Training would've been nice too as this game gets hard when turned up.

Tom M.
12-15-2013, 01:20 AM
I have never owned a Saturn. I did have a PSOne in 2001 and a small number of 2D games, namely Rayman, Strikers 1945 (?) and Raiden Project. All I can say the PSX has enough power to handle ANY OF THOSE 2D 60fps arcade games with ease. This is the fact. I do not expect anything above that in 2D games anyway. So saying that, Saturn was probably a slight overkill for 2D and the hardware resources should have been put more on the 3D side.

Yharnamresident
12-15-2013, 02:06 AM
I don't have a PS2 DVR, like all you guys seem to have.

But all I can say is the Saturn didn't need better 3D capabilities. The technology wasn't ready for 3D all together.

It was just North American people going ape shit over 3D games, thus developers had to make 3D games work on these consoles that have no Z-buffers, perspective correction, AA. Games should've remained 2D for a little longer.

bultje112
12-15-2013, 05:19 AM
by north american people you mean all people on the whole world? guess what the best selling games were in europe and japan? by far! 3d games

retrospiel
12-15-2013, 01:54 PM
Sales don't mean that something is better. Else we'd probably all be discussing FIFA, F1 and wrestling games. (translation for peoples from Americanishe land: NHL, NFL and wrestling games)


Dear god of gaming,

we admit of being wrong. We should have bought 2D games. Some 3D games were nice and stuff but really, we should have bought more 2D games.

Signed,

Chris

evildragon
12-15-2013, 02:09 PM
I don't have a PS2 DVR, like all you guys seem to have.

PSX was originally for the original PS1.. In fact, when the PS2 originally came out, Blockbuster video called PS1 games PSX.

o.pwuaioc
12-15-2013, 02:52 PM
PSX was originally for the original PS1.. In fact, when the PS2 originally came out, Blockbuster video called PS1 games PSX.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, PSX is a stupid acronym for the PlayStation now, and it was a stupid acronym for the PlayStation then. I don't know why it wasn't PS or SPS even.

synbiosfan
12-15-2013, 03:35 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, PSX is a stupid acronym for the PlayStation now, and it was a stupid acronym for the PlayStation then. I don't know why it wasn't PS or SPS even.

You're entitled to your opinion however wrong:cool:

retrospiel
12-15-2013, 03:43 PM
guess what the best selling games were in europe and japan? by far! 3d games


we should have bought more 2D games

wait a minute! they didn't make too many 2d games now, did they? How could we have bought more 2d games when they did not make any?

o.pwuaioc
12-15-2013, 04:24 PM
You're entitled to your opinion however wrong:cool:

You seriously think adding an "X" to it wasn't stupid? I know it was part of the "edgy" 90s thing, but I cannot fathom a single purpose it served beyond that, and of course, releasing an actual PSX later just compounded the negative effects of that horrible decision.

I never called it a PSX back then, only a PlayStation (and thus, PS in abbreviations, over Sat, N64), and I refuse to bow down to the practice now.

Similarly, I make fun of people who use the term "oXbox". Let the brogamers be idiots if they want by confusing the three consoles, but it's Xbox, 360, and Xbone for me.

I do however permit both VCS and 2600, but urge people to refer to the actual first run of Sears-made consoles when referring to VCS, but 2600 when referring to the console as a whole.

Example:

"I have a VCS!"

"That's a 2600 Jr., you dolt."

:p

Barone
12-15-2013, 04:40 PM
All I can say the PSX has enough power to handle ANY OF THOSE 2D 60fps arcade games with ease. This is the fact.
That isn't a fact at all, more like a very flawed statement.
And you're both technically and historically wrong.

Historically, the PS1 ports of Neo Geo fighting games were very poor with some few exceptions but all suffered cuts. Capcom ports were better but, aside from much older games like SFII, all of them also had cuts.

Technically, the PS1 simply didn't have enough RAM to run those games without cuts (much less with "ease"). The Saturn had the advantage of the RAM cart option and 2D-specific capabilities in its VDP, unlike the PS1. The PS1 usually requires a blitter-based engine for 2D games and that demands the CPU to do more work than when a 2D game is running in platforms with proper 2D support, as the Neo Geo, the Saturn and most of the 2D arcade machines of the time.

Games like The Last Blade on the PS1 show heavy slowdown in the stages with more animation and effects.
I also remember that the King of Fighters games released in both platforms always had faster background animation on the Saturn, despite the PS1 having a faster CPU for single-threaded games.

IrishNinja
12-15-2013, 06:00 PM
Well, I thought the versus games were only worth looking into if you were still into old stuff (http://www.gamespot.com/marvel-super-heroes-vs-street-fighter/reviews/marvel-super-heroes-vs-street-fighter-import-review-2532883/).

In more seriousness though, I don't think I have seen any of the Capcom fighters praised on the PS1 for being better than any other console port. Unless we're talking about Monkeyboy Rox that is.

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/Miscmovies/monkeyboyrox.JPG

ahahaha it was totally worth digging through this thread for the great throwback shot on Rox/Gamefan


I've said it before and I'll say it again, PSX is a stupid acronym for the PlayStation now, and it was a stupid acronym for the PlayStation then. I don't know why it wasn't PS or SPS even.

not sure what the problem here is, guy - PSX was clearly in the same gen as Project Atlantis/Reality Ultra 64 and GigaDrive, the post Project Mars 32 bit system.

zyrobs
12-15-2013, 06:03 PM
The Playstation could in fact draw sprites much faster than the Saturn and it also had twice the RAM for sprites. But the Saturn had a tilemap/bitmap capable dedicated background processor that offloaded a TON of memory from the sprite processor, much more than the extra muscle the Playstation had.
It was also capable of doing a lot of effects that many top arcade 2D pushers did, effects that either took significant effort (read: complete recoding) on the Playstation, or they just weren't possible at all (or only at a way too heavy resource cost).
Plus, the Saturn also had a separate framebuffer, which also helped a lot. Saturn was 512k for sprites, 512k for backgrounds, and totally separate framebuffer. Playstation gpu had 1mb total for all three of those.

And there's of course the RAM expansion.

Yharnamresident
12-15-2013, 07:18 PM
Yes PSX is a stupid name, but its suited for the PS2 DVR as thats a spin-off console


by north american people you mean all people on the whole world? guess what the best selling games were in europe and japan? by far! 3d gamesDoesn't matter if the graphics are warping, no anti-aliasing, horrible low polygon counts. As long as its 3D, people will buy it.

synbiosfan
12-15-2013, 07:21 PM
You seriously think adding an "X" to it wasn't stupid? I know it was part of the "edgy" 90s thing, but I cannot fathom a single purpose it served beyond that, and of course, releasing an actual PSX later just compounded the negative effects of that horrible decision.

I never called it a PSX back then, only a PlayStation (and thus, PS in abbreviations, over Sat, N64), and I refuse to bow down to the practice now.

Similarly, I make fun of people who use the term "oXbox". Let the brogamers be idiots if they want by confusing the three consoles, but it's Xbox, 360, and Xbone for me.

I do however permit both VCS and 2600, but urge people to refer to the actual first run of Sears-made consoles when referring to VCS, but 2600 when referring to the console as a whole.

Example:

"I have a VCS!"

"That's a 2600 Jr., you dolt."

:p

Well that's how many of us have always and will always call it at times, a PSX. I know I don't plan on changing anytime soon.

The fact that it annoys you...to no end apparently...is just a plus as I see it.;)

Yharnamresident
12-15-2013, 07:28 PM
Have you guys played your Ultra 64 today? my Ultra 64 won't work because it has crap on the cartridge slot pins. Ultra lame.

Da_Shocker
12-15-2013, 08:01 PM
Why has nobody mentioned Guilty Gear before it was one of the only games that was built from the ground up for the PSx.

sheath
12-15-2013, 08:06 PM
ahahaha it was totally worth digging through this thread for the great throwback shot on Rox/Gamefan

not sure what the problem here is, guy - PSX was clearly in the same gen as Project Atlantis/Reality Ultra 64 and GigaDrive, the post Project Mars 32 bit system.

You sir deserve some rep. I'm all out, so I will just say that Monkey Boy Rox will always remain:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33200000/Legendary-how-i-met-your-mother-33201003-333-500.jpg

Barone
12-15-2013, 08:16 PM
Why has nobody mentioned Guilty Gear before it was one of the only games that was built from the ground up for the PSx.
There are many 2D games exclusive to the PS1, it was just SCEA not willing to see them published in the US.

tomaitheous
12-15-2013, 08:22 PM
You seriously think adding an "X" to it wasn't stupid? I know it was part of the "edgy" 90s thing, but I cannot fathom a single purpose it served beyond that, and of course, releasing an actual PSX later just compounded the negative effects of that horrible decision.

I never called it a PSX back then, only a PlayStation (and thus, PS in abbreviations, over Sat, N64), and I refuse to bow down to the practice now.

Similarly, I make fun of people who use the term "oXbox". Let the brogamers be idiots if they want by confusing the three consoles, but it's Xbox, 360, and Xbone for me.

I do however permit both VCS and 2600, but urge people to refer to the actual first run of Sears-made consoles when referring to VCS, but 2600 when referring to the console as a whole.

Example:

"I have a VCS!"

"That's a 2600 Jr., you dolt."

:p

PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX! PSX!

Also... PSX!

It was referred to as both PS and PSX back in the day. Who cares if it was an internal dev name, the public ran with it. I knew a lot of people that used that abbreviation. Figure it out! ;)

zyrobs
12-15-2013, 08:27 PM
All the gaming mags over here called it PSX until early 98 or so when someone pointed out "what the heck does the X stand for anyway" in a mail, and they starts using just PS after that.

Da_Shocker
12-15-2013, 08:52 PM
There are many 2D games exclusive to the PS1, it was just SCEA not willing to see them published in the US.

Well that can be said about the Saturn since outside of Capcom and whatever crap Acklame was bringing out there wasn't to many other 2D games from 3rd parties outside of Galaxy Fight, Galaxy Fight and Battle Monsters. But yeah GG is widely considered to be the best 2D PSx ever in the States at least.

j_factor
12-15-2013, 09:58 PM
I don't see how "PSX" is any worse than, say, "GCN".

TrekkiesUnite118
12-15-2013, 10:06 PM
I don't see how "PSX" is any worse than, say, "GCN".

Yeah, it's not any worse really. Though I can understand some people's arguments since the PSX is now an officially different Sony product.

Barone
12-15-2013, 10:11 PM
Well that can be said about the Saturn since outside of Capcom and whatever crap Acklame was bringing out there wasn't to many other 2D games from 3rd parties outside of Galaxy Fight, Galaxy Fight and Battle Monsters. But yeah GG is widely considered to be the best 2D PSx ever in the States at least.
Sure, you're right... And I kinda agree to what you said previously, considering that Guilty Gear became a series of games with some fanbase and stuff like an exclusive pad.

About the Saturn, well, a lot of SCEA people actually were "stolen" from SOA so we shouldn't be all that surprised about similar dick moves. It's a bit worse for the SOA side of things IMO since the 3D war was a bad one for the Saturn hardware to fight that way. I mean, I know the whole 3D crazy was there and people would buy any shit in 3D while magazines would complain about superb games for being "old" 2D but, seriously, maybe SOA could have pushed a bit more of 2D in US just to offer something else to the public rather than the "Saturn is a better Playstation than the Sony Playstation" line which they seemed to be forcing in those days.



I don't see how "PSX" is any worse than, say, "GCN".
Then tell me about "SSX" for the Saturn...

TrekkiesUnite118
12-15-2013, 10:20 PM
Then tell me about "SSX" for the Saturn...

That's a thing?

Tom M.
12-16-2013, 12:40 AM
Historically, the PS1 ports of Neo Geo fighting games were very poor with some few exceptions but all suffered cuts. Capcom ports were better but, aside from much older games like SFII, all of them also had cuts.

Technically, the PS1 simply didn't have enough RAM to run those games without cuts (much less with "ease"). The Saturn had the advantage of the RAM cart option and 2D-specific capabilities in its VDP, unlike the PS1. The PS1 usually requires a blitter-based engine for 2D games and that demands the CPU to do more work than when a 2D game is running in platforms with proper 2D support, as the Neo Geo, the Saturn and most of the 2D arcade machines of the time.



According to my real experience with: Rayman, Strikers 1945 and Raiden Project the PSX could handle 2D with ease. All these games were running at 60fps with scrolling backgrounds and dozens and dozens of sprites and particles, without slowdowns, without overflows. I am pretty sure Neo Geo CD could only dream about this potential. Not even speaking about Mega Drive and SNES. I do not expect anything more than that from 2D anyway.

zyrobs
12-16-2013, 01:40 AM
According to my real experience with: Rayman, Strikers 1945 and Raiden Project the PSX could handle 2D with ease. All these games were running at 60fps with scrolling backgrounds and dozens and dozens of sprites and particles, without slowdowns, without overflows. I am pretty sure Neo Geo CD could only dream about this potential. Not even speaking about Mega Drive and SNES. I do not expect anything more than that from 2D anyway.

Uh, didn't the Neo Geo CD had like four times the RAM the Playstation and Saturn had?

Da_Shocker
12-16-2013, 01:49 AM
Speaking of SNK why in the hell is there Saturn support not as good as the PSx? To me that never made sense since the Saturn had access to mulitple ram carts and they could've ported over so many great games with 4MB ram cart. Did the not want to devalue the AES with pixel perfect 4MB ram cart games.

Yharnamresident
12-16-2013, 02:54 AM
I don't see how "PSX" is any worse than, say, "GCN".
But that has its reasons, "NGC" was already used for another console/handheld, so they had to use "GCN".

Just like Genesis instead of Mega Drive.

Uh, didn't the Neo Geo CD had like four times the RAM the Playstation and Saturn had?
Yea I think this guy is underestimating how good 2D can get.

Tom M.
12-16-2013, 07:55 AM
Uh, didn't the Neo Geo CD had like four times the RAM the Playstation and Saturn had?

Oh yes, sorry. The RAM yes, the power... well... not really.

Black_Tiger
12-16-2013, 10:28 AM
Speaking of SNK why in the hell is there Saturn support not as good as the PSx? To me that never made sense since the Saturn had access to mulitple ram carts and they could've ported over so many great games with 4MB ram cart. Did the not want to devalue the AES with pixel perfect 4MB ram cart games.

The Saturn was already nearing the end by the time the 4meg cart was released. The fact that it was released by Capcom might have had something to do with SNK not supporting it. But for all we know the Neo Geo ports which supported ram carts simply sold too poorly.

Barone
12-16-2013, 01:28 PM
According to my real experience with: Rayman, Strikers 1945 and Raiden Project the PSX could handle 2D with ease. All these games were running at 60fps with scrolling backgrounds and dozens and dozens of sprites and particles, without slowdowns, without overflows. I am pretty sure Neo Geo CD could only dream about this potential. Not even speaking about Mega Drive and SNES. I do not expect anything more than that from 2D anyway.
IDK what you meant with "overflows"...

Anyway, neither of those games you listed were on par with the graphics of the most hardware demanding 2D games we had at the time.
Rayman is very good looking and artistically beautiful but it doesn't hold a candle to Astal (1995) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDwfL-3t2I0) in terms of 2D graphical effects. And the PS1's Rayman didn't had all the Saturn's Rayman effects, to begin with.

Strikers 1945 (I guess you're actually talking about the US version, which happens to be Strikers 1945 II in reality) lacks the TATE mode and the original intro in the US release but, still, it has less slowdowns than the Saturn version. It has "dozens of sprites and particles" with less slowdowns than the Saturn, I'll give you that. But that sort of shooter has almost nothing in terms of graphical effects that we hadn't seen years before and very straight forward graphics overall (static backgrounds, simplistic animation, etc.).
It isn't in the same league of games like Pulstar (1995) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5fC3RV9DLQ), which the PS1 certainly couldn't handle without lots of cuts.

Raiden Project is nothng but Raiden I + Raiden II and those games had nothing special in terms of graphics. I'd say that some Mega Drive games are far more impressive. Again, shooters like Cotton 2 (1997) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7RfBRI36uc)are far better looking.

And, you surely never played, but games like Voltage Fighter Gowcaizer look atrociously bad on the PS1 when compared to the Neo Geo CD.



Uh, didn't the Neo Geo CD had like four times the RAM the Playstation and Saturn had?
According to wiki:
Neo Geo CD
The CD system's 58 Mbit / 7 MB of RAM was split accordingly:

68000 Program Memory: 2 MB
Fix Layer Memory: 128 KB
Graphics Memory: 4 MB
Sound Sample Memory: 1 MB
Z80 Program Memory: 64 kB

VRAM: 512Kb (For graphics attributes)
SRAM: 2 KB (For high scores / general save data)

PS1
4 kB Instruction Cache
1 kB non-associative SRAM Data Cache
2 MB of main RAM
1 MB of VRAM
SPU has 512 kB of memory
CD-ROM drive has 128 kB buffer



Yea I think this guy is underestimating how good 2D can get.
Yep.


The Saturn was already nearing the end by the time the 4meg cart was released. The fact that it was released by Capcom might have had something to do with SNK not supporting it. But for all we know the Neo Geo ports which supported ram carts simply sold too poorly.
This.

Da_Shocker
12-16-2013, 01:32 PM
The Saturn was already nearing the end by the time the 4meg cart was released. The fact that it was released by Capcom might have had something to do with SNK not supporting it. But for all we know the Neo Geo ports which supported ram carts simply sold too poorly.

Well the Neo was niche system in the first place and i'm pretty sure the Saturn had sold more units in Japan than the Neo sold worldwide. For such niche company to end up not supporting the Saturn as long as the PSx was strange IMO.

evilevoix
12-16-2013, 06:36 PM
Well the Neo was niche system in the first place and i'm pretty sure the Saturn had sold more units in Japan than the Neo sold worldwide. For such niche company to end up not supporting the Saturn as long as the PSx was strange IMO.

I think you are forgetting the Impact the Neo Geo had in arcades.

Black_Tiger
12-16-2013, 08:20 PM
Well the Neo was niche system in the first place and i'm pretty sure the Saturn had sold more units in Japan than the Neo sold worldwide. For such niche company to end up not supporting the Saturn as long as the PSx was strange IMO.

Non-Nintendo consoles may have been less risky to publish for, but it's still more of an investment than publishing for your own consoles with built-in fan base. By the time the 4 meg cart came out, the Playstation was far away the dominant console worldwide.




I think you are forgetting the Impact the Neo Geo had in arcades.

Any kind of success in arcades would influence arcade releases. They were a nice console company.

evilevoix
12-16-2013, 09:05 PM
Another thing to remember was consoles were measured (back in the day of course) by how close they got to arcade games. It wasn't really until PS2 that we got on par, so porting over an Arcade game to your home console almost perfectly was a huge bragging right. Neo Geo was an Arcade standard so having a home console port over one of SNK's games, even well into the late 90's, was quite impressive. Hell even the Dreamcast made a ton of SNK games a new home and PS2 had a custom Neo Geo stick and many many games for it's library. SNK was a huge influence.

bultje112
12-17-2013, 05:41 AM
arcade perfection was already already widespread on dreamcast. not ps2

zyrobs
12-17-2013, 06:52 AM
arcade perfection was already already widespread on dreamcast. not ps2

DC games weren't 100% arcade perfect due to Naomi having more RAM and Naomi 2 having 2x more everything.

Many games were indeed close to perfect though, especially ones released on older hardware, which were usually better than the arcade versions too.

bultje112
12-17-2013, 07:16 AM
soul calibur a 99 dreamcast game was more than arcade perfect(it looked better than arcade). so no.

Black_Tiger
12-17-2013, 09:15 AM
Another thing to remember was consoles were measured (back in the day of course) by how close they got to arcade games. It wasn't really until PS2 that we got on par, so porting over an Arcade game to your home console almost perfectly was a huge bragging right. Neo Geo was an Arcade standard so having a home console port over one of SNK's games, even well into the late 90's, was quite impressive. Hell even the Dreamcast made a ton of SNK games a new home and PS2 had a custom Neo Geo stick and many many games for it's library. SNK was a huge influence.

I don't think that it would have been as impressive to most if Saturn Neo Geo ports of games the average person already thought were perfect on CD, had instead come out on 32X hardware sized carts and cost hundreds of dollars.

The Neo Geo was also a budget arcade system, which was already outdated at launch. By the late 90's it looked liked like a generation behind other arcade and console games.

I don't know what you mean by "influence". Nobody was copying Neo Geo games, 3D graphics and fmv were the new standard and RPGs went full main stream.

Many 2D ports had to be sold as compilations to be worthwhile, like the PS2 Neo Geo sets.

Team Andromeda
12-17-2013, 10:38 AM
DC games weren't 100% arcade perfect due to Naomi having more RAM and Naomi 2 having 2x more everything.


I don't see why people bring up ST-V, System 11, Chinhiro ports or NA@MI ports Ect when they should be more or less Arcade perfect given they were running on more or less the same Hardware . I more impressed with ports where the Arcade games in question on running more powerful and different hardware.


soul calibur a 99 dreamcast game was more than arcade perfect(it looked better than arcade). so no

Running on vastly more powerful Hardware though , I would expect it to look a lot better or they'll be something up

bultje112
12-17-2013, 11:44 AM
the point was arcade perfection was already achieved with dreamcast.

Tom M.
12-18-2013, 05:02 AM
IDK what you meant with "overflows"...

Sprite oveflows... as it happens regularly on Mega Drive, SNES and apparently on Neo Geo as well (but very seldom) to my surprise...

zyrobs
12-18-2013, 07:11 AM
soul calibur a 99 dreamcast game was more than arcade perfect(it looked better than arcade). so no.

If having 1 single game look better than on the arcade meant "arcade perfection achieved", then any console that had Pong ported to it already achieved arcade perfection.

DC was close to arcade perfect, but some arcade games still had to be downgraded on it. PS2/GC/Xbox sometimes had that issue as well (best example would be Outrun, had to be downgraded from running with 512mb ram in the arcades to 64mb on the xbox). But they were all damn close.

It's the x360/ps3 generation that reached total parity with arcades, mainly because arcades transitioned to cheap PC hardware on par with those consoles.

bultje112
12-18-2013, 08:22 AM
if we are going to split hairs here then I just name neo geo aes as first system that already achieved arcade perfection

Black_Tiger
12-18-2013, 08:50 AM
if we are going to split hairs here then I just name neo geo aes as first system that already achieved arcade perfection

Famicom came out before Neo Geo.

bultje112
12-18-2013, 10:51 AM
famicom barely had any if any arcade perfect ports

Team Andromeda
12-18-2013, 12:47 PM
the point was arcade perfection was already achieved with dreamcast.

Well when it's running on more or less the same system you're going to get Arcade perfect ports . And sorry long before the DC we had very close or Arcade perfect ports on systems like the PC-Eng , Saturn and so on not just on ST-V titles but on some of the CP2 and shooters which were Arcade perfect in every way

bultje112
12-18-2013, 01:20 PM
Well when it's running on more or less the same system you're going to get Arcade perfect ports . And sorry long before the DC we had very close or Arcade perfect ports on systems like the PC-Eng , Saturn and so on not just on ST-V titles but on some of the CP2 and shooters which were Arcade perfect in every way

never mind. you completely miss the whole point of the argument. which was widespread arcade perfection on a console and the guy named ps2 as being first

Black_Tiger
12-18-2013, 01:34 PM
famicom barely had any if any arcade perfect ports

When Famicom hardware was used in arcades, the "ports" were as good as Neo Geo "ports". But the Neo Geo never received any ports, it was just arcade hardware in a box using the arcade rom. Nothing was ever ported.

evilevoix
12-18-2013, 06:38 PM
I don't think that it would have been as impressive to most if Saturn Neo Geo ports of games the average person already thought were perfect on CD, had instead come out on 32X hardware sized carts and cost hundreds of dollars.

The Neo Geo was also a budget arcade system, which was already outdated at launch. By the late 90's it looked liked like a generation behind other arcade and console games.

I don't know what you mean by "influence". Nobody was copying Neo Geo games, 3D graphics and fmv were the new standard and RPGs went full main stream.

Many 2D ports had to be sold as compilations to be worthwhile, like the PS2 Neo Geo sets.

Any hardware released is outdated at launch, especially these days. The Neo Geo's designed endured as it took up much less floor space due to having more than one game, a simple yet brilliant business decision.

The 32 Bit era had an issue porting over Neo Geo games perfectly, the Saturn closer due to the ram cart but again many SNK games. Fighting games were the rage in the early 90's as evidenced by glut of games. Influence? Just going to ignore the KOF series i guess. Obvisouly the Neo Geo Arcade board was dated at the end of the 90's, what machine wouldn't be, it still looked good, very classy arcade games, Metal Slug three looked great and had a huge following up till Metal slug 5 which again was ported over. That is what I mean influence.

Barone
12-18-2013, 06:58 PM
Most, if not all, PS2 "ports" aren't ports, just poor emulation.

KOF '95 on the Saturn is closer to be arcade perfect than many of these PS2/Xbox/PS3/360 emulated releases that some people and sites like IGN love to sell as "arcade perfect":

Exact same resolution of the arcade.
Neglectable loading times.
Very good sfx quality
Doesn't reset the music between rounds (a very rare feature in KOF ports)
All animation seems to be intact.


On the PS1, the Samurai Spirits: Kenkaku Yubinan Pack is also very good; just the loading times suck a bit but the accuracy is there.
Captain Commando is also a superb port on the PS1.

Da_Shocker
12-19-2013, 03:34 AM
Fuck Capcom for not bringing out Captain Commando here. But they bought Strider 2 which I bought back in the day and I still own :D

j_factor
12-19-2013, 03:45 AM
I really wish they'd put Strider 2 on Dreamcast or something.

Team Andromeda
12-19-2013, 07:28 AM
never mind. you completely miss the whole point of the argument. which was widespread arcade perfection on a console and the guy named ps2 as being first

Not really since it started before the Dreamcast (my point) , not just on systems like the PC Eng and Saturn, but the PS and even systems like Sharps X68000 . And tbh given that NA@MI and the DC was more or less the same Hardware Arcade perfection didn't really mean much but the DC it's self had issues with ports of Model 3 games (many of which weren't Arcade Perfection at all )

In Fact systems like Saturn had more or less the same number of Arcade perfect ports to that of the DC , I wouldn't mind betting when you total them up

Tom M.
12-19-2013, 11:32 AM
I wouldn't emphasize the PS2 that much since they usually screwed up the display output by ignoring progressive and forcing interlaced. The PS2 just cannot be accepted as a serious replacement for arcade games. The same applies to Xbox. Not sure about Dreamcast as I know nothing about it but I have a feeling it is more or less the same. The last home consoles to offer proper arcade display in nearly every game were Saturn and PSOne.

sheath
12-19-2013, 01:44 PM
^ Aren't most non-3D Arcade games on the PS2 emulated, high level style, anyway?

retrospiel
12-19-2013, 03:52 PM
Not sure about Dreamcast as I know nothing about it but I have a feeling it is more or less the same. The last home consoles to offer proper arcade display in nearly every game were Saturn and PSOne.

If you are referring to 15 khz RGB then Dreamcast isn't half bad. It automatically upscans to 31khz 480p in VGA but if you hook it up via RGB-SCART (or S-Video) it outputs 15khz 240p (if that's indeed the game's resolution that is). Pretty nice.

Video modes can be disabled by not setting the corresponding flag in the game's boot sector, and Capcom usually disabled 240p RGB output to prevent using the games in an arcade cabinet. It can be re-enabled via a boot disc or by playing a backup with the flag set active.

zyrobs
12-19-2013, 09:06 PM
When Famicom hardware was used in arcades, the "ports" were as good as Neo Geo "ports". But the Neo Geo never received any ports, it was just arcade hardware in a box using the arcade rom. Nothing was ever ported.

Neogeo was arcade first and home console second, so it would indeed be the first "arcade perfect" machine. Famicom was home console first, and arcade hardware later... and the arcade hardware was not identical; it used a different video encoder due to requiring RGB output (stock fami only did composite from what I recall), and this made games have different colours.

Tom M.
01-06-2014, 10:40 AM
Regarding tilemaps, once you have set it up you only update small parts. Only a fool tries to update it all times all the way. I would really not say it is complex to set them up, definitely less headache than creating display lists for 3D hardware due to being sequential not so much changing data. Scrolling is only matter of changing some registers, not manually displacing every single tile/sprite which you'd have to do on PSX which does require rework of entire "tilemap"

Reality clearly shows PSX can do what Mega Drive cannot. And Mega Drive being 2D custom low level hardware. That being said, I am convinced no one needs any special 2D custom hardware at all. Give us a general powerful architecture that allows the programmer to fully control the frame at least 60 times per second. That is really all that is needed. Custom HW has always been a source of troubles either due to design limitations or BUGS (that are present just everywhere).