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sheath
03-18-2013, 09:21 PM
For me, the Dreamcast will never be its own thing because it will always be the console that rivaled two Playstations at once and arguably beat them both and the N64 in the same timeframe.

Here is an old write up I did almost a decade ago (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/DCPScompare.htm) to kick off the thread.

Most casual gamer players who know about the Dreamcast know about it in name only, and seem to have completely failed to categorize it in any way. Several facts must be acknowledged before continuing to read the information on this comparison. The first and most important is that the Dreamcast was the first game console of the "128-bit" generation, or the "current generation" by 2006 standards. Secondarily but almost as important is the fact that the Playstation 2 was and is reputed to be the stand-alone greatest console of this generation. Finally, the perception of the PS2's absolute superiority leans heavily on hype, sales numbers and marketing, but it is important to note that crucial facts which Sony's hype depends on is demonstrably false. Knowing the Dreamcast and PS2's graphical and software advantages is an important thing, since the hype, game magazines, and Sony fans exclusively favor the PS2.

Highlights of the graphical comparison are quoted directly below from a Usenet discussion:http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/DCvsPS2/Jak3001.jpg

"The PS2 handles everything needed to render 3D graphics, and that's about it. The EE sends polygon data (three or four 2D coordinates, and pointers to texture, bump, light and dark data), and the GS pumps the data to the screen. It offers little in effects, and places the burden of rendering on the CPU. (...) Since the bottle-neck is with the processor, I'll take a moment here to discuss this further. The EE can render 36 million polygons with some effects on (though it still doesn't do many things the PowerVR can). This is full bore, which means the CPU is doing nothing but dumping polygons. With game physics and AI bundled into the mix, expect polygon counts to drop. More complex games will hurt more in the graphics department. Of course, the polygon count, even in the potential worst case (all bezier surfaces, 50% CPU spent on AI and physics) is still faster than the PowerVR. In fact, about twice as fast. What does this mean. Well, look at the current DC game models. For every straight edge you can see, subdivide it once (so that each edge is broken into two), and that's the detail improvement you'll see. Pretty substantial? Of course, as game developers make better use of the CPU(s), I'd expect polygon performance to increase.

On the DC or PowerVR's side, the 3.5 million polygon count allows for scenes of up to 58,000 polygons (about 4x's the detail in Quake 3). At 640x480 the pixel fill rate can redraw the entire screen at 650 fps. Unlike the EE/GS, the PowerVR only draws a pixel once per frame. This is called overdraw, and in Quake 2, costs performance of about 1/3 (that is, each pixel is typically redrawn about three times). The PowerVR also handles subsampling and has the video ram to do so. Games could be rendered internally at 1280x960, and down sampled to 640x480 for television output. (...) As noted earlier in this text, the fpu that is on the PowerVR eliminates several steps from the CPU's burden. And most importantly, while currently no game is known to fully support this, the DC can use modifier volumes. Effects such as light beams, shadows, lasers, and glowing suns are all possible with this, which would otherwise require significant CPU effort, and visual tricks to accomplish (such as using a flat polygon for fake shadows). Also, the polygon per second count is for drawn polygon's only. Polygon's that are buried under other ones are not drawn at all, nor are polygons that are to far left/right/up/down to be seen on screen, nor are polygons which are facing the other way (about half). (35 (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.video.sega-dreamcast/msg/538573c34e6eb110))"

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/DCvsPS2/SA2001.jpgIt should be needless to say that no game ever used the advanced features of the PowerVR chip to the extent listed here. The point of quoting this is to show as clearly as possible that the Dreamcast's resources were not maxed out in its short 2 year lifespan, and that had it continued to be developed for many more sophisticated games could have been created for the platform. It might seem silly to some to make this point, but the theory that the Dreamcast was running at full throttle when it was discontinued is so prolific it is likely that many will scoff even at the detailed comparison just quoted.

The PS2, on the other hand enjoyed a full lifecycle as the lowest common denominator for the 128-bit generation of consoles. As late as 2005, Capcom was forced to drop the polygon counts of the PS2 port of Resident Evil 4 from the Gamecube to between 900k to 1.5 million polygons per second, at 30 frames per second, while the Gamecube original ran at nearly twice this polygon count. This means that the entire generation of game consoles was relatively close to the Dreamcast's specs. This is in opposition to the idea, propagated by the media, that the PS2, Xbox and Gamecube's games were running 2-4 times the polygon counts of the Dreamcast's max specs. So, it was actually only blind brand name following coupled with the masses buying into hype which caused the mass market to reject three consoles in favor of the PS2 exclusively. This is evidenced by the massive public choice for the PS2 being made clearly, before the Xbox and Gamecube even launched.

Finally, "TheSpaceChannel5 (https://www.youtube.com/user/TheSpacechannel5)" has made this excellent tribute video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X952GPffvFI

old man
03-18-2013, 10:54 PM
Sega canceling the Dreamcast was one of the biggest disappointments for me as a gamer. This is probably the source of my disgust for the machine in the past. That said, I really did love this machine BITD. And unlike the N64s, the DCs cheap aftermarket 3rd party memory cards still work today. Then there's the homebrew scene for it which is awesome. To be honest, even though it's old and yellowing worse than my SNES (-_-), I'm starting to like this machine again.

sheath
03-18-2013, 11:05 PM
Sega canceling the Dreamcast was one of the biggest disappointments for me as a gamer. This is probably the source of my disgust for the machine in the past. That said, I really did love this machine BITD. And unlike the N64s, the DCs cheap aftermarket 3rd party memory cards still work today. Then there's the homebrew scene for it which is awesome. To be honest, even though it's old and yellowing worse than my SNES (-_-), I'm starting to like this machine again.

Weird that your Dreamcast is yellowing, especially to the degree of a SNES. I haven't seen that yet. My launch Dreamcast just made it way back to my house and it is in such good condition I can't bring myself to sell it. Sega canceling the Dreamcast is something I blame anybody but them for, I blame megapublishers, which at the time was pretty much EA and Eidos, and other megacorps like Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft, and most of all I blame consumers for that eventuality. Almost all of Sega's early third party efforts all failing to achieve mass market status affirm this for me.

A Black Falcon
03-19-2013, 12:01 AM
Dreamcasts are white, and white plastic sometimes yellows, so yeah, I'd expect some of them to be yellowing. Fortunately mine is still white, as is my SNES.

As for why the Dreamcast died, yeah, we've gone over all that before, but you really need to go back to about 1994, or even earlier... it died because Sega was out of money, and Sega was out of money because of market failures (with the 32X, Saturn, and Dreamcast) and because of some very bad decisions.

Ideally of course the Dreamcast as it is would never have had to exist, because Sega would not have messed up the Saturn so badly that it needed replacing after just four years... and yes, while it is true that not all of the DC's power was used and far too many DC games are just ports of PS1/N64 level stuff but with better textures and framerates, I'm going to guess that later PS2 games pushed a lot more than twice as many polygons than the DC could do... and that's ignoring that there are what, like one game that actually push the DC in terms of polygon counts? Of course if the system had lived longer you've have seen a lot more, but still, it'd be like (sub-)PSP games versus Xbox... huge difference there.

On that note though, I wonder, could the Dreamcast do a version of Outrun 2006 about as good as the PSP's is? Because if there is something about the DC's library that disappoints me, it's how thin Sega's library of racing games on the system is. They needed more, badly.

AdamL
03-19-2013, 04:33 AM
The Dreamcast era was the best, most exciting time in gaming for me. The stuff Sega was putting out back then just seemed so new and different. Games like Sonic Adventure, Blue Stinger, Jet Grind Radio, Toy Commander, Crazy Taxi, Zombie Revenge, Sword of the Berserk, D2, etc. were absolutely amazing back in the day and are still some of my favorite games of all time. I was absolutely crushed when Sega pulled the plug and left the hardware business.

After the Dreamcast I bought an Xbox but pretty much lost interest in video games soon after. It just wasn't the same for me anymore for some reason.

I still play my Dreamcast more than any other system I own.


Ideally of course the Dreamcast as it is would never have had to exist, because Sega would not have messed up the Saturn so badly that it needed replacing after just four years... and yes, while it is true that not all of the DC's power was used and far too many DC games are just ports of PS1/N64 level stuff but with better textures and framerates, I'm going to guess that later PS2 games pushed a lot more than twice as many polygons than the DC could do... and that's ignoring that there are what, like one game that actually push the DC in terms of polygon counts?


There's a lot more to graphical quality than just raw polygon counts. Just as an example, Test Drive Le Mans on the Dreamcast is pushing about the same amount of polygons as Sega GT does, but it looks much, much better. Same deal with Gran Turismo 4 on the PS2, which I've heard has about the same polygon count as Le Mans. Good art direction has a much bigger impact on the look of a game than the number of polygons does.

I mean, Triggerheart Exelica apparently has the highest polygon count of any Dreamcast game by a large amount, but it probably wouldn't be very high on my list of best-looking DC games...


Of course if the system had lived longer you've have seen a lot more, but still, it'd be like (sub-)PSP games versus Xbox... huge difference there.

Huh? Are you seriously saying that the Dreamcast is sub-PSP in terms of graphics? I don't agree with that at all.

Waterfaller
03-19-2013, 05:01 AM
I recently got pretty into my Dreamcast, which I bought for $20 off a friend who was moving away. I got the VGA box from forum member Aarzak, recently bought a new controller (European) and a new blue VMU (a blue one, goes nicely with the blue spiral on the Euro controller), and I have the VGA box connected to my LKV351 component and VGA to HDMI converter/upscaler, and I tried it all out tonight on Capcom vs. SNK Pro.

Holy shitsnacks. It's BEAUTIFUL.

Chukka
03-19-2013, 06:10 AM
I got my first ever Dreamcast today. I've never even played one before. I'm excited.

Mr Smith
03-19-2013, 07:09 AM
There were some awesome games on the Dreamcast. :ok:

Except Sonic Adventure 2, that was overrated tosh.

Robotwo
03-19-2013, 08:08 AM
Really love trigger heart, not a exclusive, but a fun shooter though :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thRkT-wdBSU#t=1m34s

bultje112
03-19-2013, 09:18 AM
Dreamcasts are white, and white plastic sometimes yellows, so yeah, I'd expect some of them to be yellowing. Fortunately mine is still white, as is my SNES.

As for why the Dreamcast died, yeah, we've gone over all that before, but you really need to go back to about 1994, or even earlier... it died because Sega was out of money, and Sega was out of money because of market failures (with the 32X, Saturn, and Dreamcast) and because of some very bad decisions.

Ideally of course the Dreamcast as it is would never have had to exist, because Sega would not have messed up the Saturn so badly that it needed replacing after just four years... and yes, while it is true that not all of the DC's power was used and far too many DC games are just ports of PS1/N64 level stuff but with better textures and framerates, I'm going to guess that later PS2 games pushed a lot more than twice as many polygons than the DC could do... and that's ignoring that there are what, like one game that actually push the DC in terms of polygon counts? Of course if the system had lived longer you've have seen a lot more, but still, it'd be like (sub-)PSP games versus Xbox... huge difference there.

On that note though, I wonder, could the Dreamcast do a version of Outrun 2006 about as good as the PSP's is? Because if there is something about the DC's library that disappoints me, it's how thin Sega's library of racing games on the system is. They needed more, badly.

worst post ever, even by your standards. I hope to god that this is just a troll attempt. dreamcast is absolute racinggame heaven. I've never even heard such ridiculous claims like yours before

Gogogadget
03-19-2013, 09:28 AM
I always found Dreamcast to be a strange console, I never had one at launch but a few years back I decided to take a look, due to a cheap console with a few games sitting on a shelf in some local video game store, it just.. doesn't seem to really fit in anywhere?

Good console though, although out of that generation, I prefer the PS2.

promking
03-19-2013, 10:01 AM
I always found Dreamcast to be a strange console, I never had one at launch but a few years back I decided to take a look, due to a cheap console with a few games sitting on a shelf in some local video game store, it just.. doesn't seem to really fit in anywhere?

Good console though, although out of that generation, I prefer the PS2.

Why is it strange?
It has just as many good games as the playstation 2...

Gogogadget
03-19-2013, 10:08 AM
Most consoles are easily grouped by generation, usually because of mutual games/trends in gaming. Dreamcast seems to slip somewhere inbetween the 5th and 6th (?) generations.. iunno. One thing that bothers me about it is the 1 analog stick though, serious hinderance.

And I say PS2 has more superior games personally, probably because of it's long shelf life.

sheath
03-19-2013, 10:23 AM
Yeah, the PS2 now has a greater quantity of worthwhile games than the Dreamcast does. I would say as late as 2004 though that the Dreamcast was still competitive, especially in the US libraries. Also, whoever indicated that the Dreamcast doesn't have a great Racing lineup needs to play more Test Drive Le Mans, F355 Challenge, Metropolis Street Racer, Tokyo Extreme Racing 1+2, and Sega GT. It is because of these games that I actually felt "full" of Racing goodness for the last two generations. My college roomate spent the last decade playing Le Mans alone and only retired it for Forza 3. Then there is always Hydro Thunder, Speed Devils, San Francisco Rush 2049, Test Drive V-Rally, TNN Motorsports Hard Core Heat, Magforce Racing, Wacky Races, Pen Pen Triicelon, Looney Tunes Space Race, Suzuki Alstare Extreme Racing, Sega Rally 2, and Daytona Online.

Just playing these games to any degree of completion should take years for a normal person. Then there is the fact that the Dreamcast controller is still excellent particularly for raising games due to the analog triggers and virtually dead-zone free analog stick.

promking
03-19-2013, 10:27 AM
I'm missing the point you're trying to make... So you like the same games coming out for three systems at a time following " game trends?" For example....COD on 360/PS3 and WII? You're talking about gaming trends? I'm not following what you're saying.
Your whole argument sounds Playstation fan-boyish.... "The PS2 is better because iunno, and the dreamcasts controller sucks. Oh and the PS2 has superior games. "

I personally love 2D games, and the dreamcast brought those games to the table for me. What games have you played for the Dreamcast? I'm not trying to convince you, but if you haven't played half of the library or some of the good games on the system, then how can you pass judgement?

Moirai
03-19-2013, 11:32 AM
This thread makes me wonder how many 6th gen games would have ended up on dreamcast.I wonder how the lack of DVD would have effected the dreamcast later in it's life if it had lasted as long as the other consoles. I wonder if they would have also made a model 2 dreamcast later it's life... Seeing as the dreamcast was already significantly cheaper when it was released, later in it's life it could have been sold for a sub $100 price, making it the most affordable console on the market...

Robotwo
03-19-2013, 11:36 AM
Would've loved to see something like Shadow of the Colossus or ICO on the Dreamcast :)

sheath
03-19-2013, 12:22 PM
GDROMs weren't much smaller than Gamecube Disks, it wouldn't have been a big deal for the entire generation I'd say. Also, here is an old list of canceled Dreamcast games (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/Dreamcastcanceled.htm) for your viewing displeasure:

10six (SegaSoft / SEGA)
3,000,000 RPG (Warp)
3D Fighter Maker (ASCII)
Agartha (No Cliché / SEGA)
Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings (Ensemble Studios / Konami + SEGA)
Aiken's Artifact see Sanity - Aiken's Artifact
Akolyte (Publisher: TBA Developer: Ionos)
ALEX ~ Virus Composer (Media Factory)
Alexander: The Road to Percia (Media Factory / RocketStudio)
Alien Resurrection (Argonaut / Fox Interactive)
All-Star Baseball (Acclaim)
Alugulate
Anachronox (Ion Storm)
Arcatera: The Dark Brotherhood (Westka Entertainment / Ubi Soft)
Arena League Football: The 50 Yard Indoor War (Midway)
Armada 2: Exodus (Metro3D)
Austin Powers: Mojo Rally (Take 2 / Rockstar / Climax Studios)
Baldur's Gate (BioWare / SEGA)
Battle Zone II (Pandemic Studios)
Beach Spikers (AM2 / SEGA)
Black & White (Lionhead Studios / Krisalis)
bleem! for Dreamcast - Final Fantasy IX (bleem!, LLC)
bleem! for Dreamcast - Metal Gear Solid Integral (bleem!, LLC)
bleem! for Dreamcast - WWF Smackdown (bleem!, LLC)
bleem! for Dreamcast - WWF Smackdown 2 (bleem!, LLC)
bleem! for Dreamcast: bleempak A (bleem!, LLC)
bleem! for Dreamcast: bleempak B (bleem!, LLC)
bleem! for Dreamcast: bleempak C (bleem!, LLC)
bleem! for Dreamcast: bleempak D (bleem!, LLC)
Boarder Zone (Housemarque / Infogrames)
Braveknight: Lieveland Avenue (Panther)
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Castlevania: Resurrection (Konami USA)
Chakan: The Forever Man (AndNow)
Chess 2000
Chi-Q no Tomodachi (NexTech)
Cho Hamaru Golf (SEGA)
Colin McRae Rally 2.0 (Codemasters)
Combat Flight Simulator see Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator
Commandos 2: Men of Courage (Pyro Studios / Eidos)
Crack 2 (Sieg)
Crimson (Core)
Croc 2 (Argonaut / Fox Interactive)
Cut Away
Dark Angel: Vampire Apocalypse (Metro3D)
Dark Earth (Kalisto)
Dark Eyes (NexTech)
Daytona USA 3 (SEGA)
Dee Dee Planet (Dori Dock / SEGA)
Deer Avenger (Hypnotix / Berkeley + Simon & Schuster)
Densha de Go! 3: Commuting (Taito)
Derby Owners Club Online (Hitmaker / SEGA)
D-Jump
Dogs of War (Silicon Dreams / Take 2)
Drak(k)an (Surreal Software / Psygnosis + GT Interactive)
DroneZ (Zetha GameZ)
Dynamic Golf (Wow Entertainment / SEGA)
Dynamite Baseball (AM1 / SEGA)
Dynamite Robo (Warashi)
ESPN Baseball Tonight (Konami)
ESPN Links Golf (Microsoft + Konami)
European PGA
Extreme-G X (Acclaim Studios London)
F1 Grand Prix 4 see Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 3 - 2000 Season
Far Nation (SEGA)
Felony Pursuit see The World's Scariest Police Chases: Deadly Pursuit
Fighter Maker see 3D Fighter Maker
Final Fight Revenge (Capcom)
Flintstones: Viva Rock Vegas
Flying Dragon see SD Legend of the Flying Dragon EX
FOG Music Box (Warp)
Fortress: The Evolution (Pipe Dream / Majesco)
Fortris (Promethean Designs)
Friend of Earth (NexTech)
Frontier (Turbine Entertainment / SEGA)
Galleon: Islands of Mystery (Confounding Factor / Interplay)
Geist Force (SEGA of America + Netter Digital Entertainment / SEGA)
Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 3 - 2000 Season (Microprose / Infogrames + Hasbro)
Gex 3: Deep Cover Gecko (Crystal Dynamics / Eidos)
Giants: Citizen Kabuto (Planet Moon Studios / Interplay)
Glover 2 (Interactive Studios / Hasbro)
Gold and Glory: The Road to El Dorado (Ubisoft / Revolution Software Ltd.)
Golf Shiyouyo Survival Hen (Bottom Up / SoftMax)
GorkaMorka (Real Sports / Ripcord)
Grand Prix 4 see Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 3 - 2000 Season
Gun Valkyrie (Smilebit / SEGA)
Guru Guru Onsen 3 (SEGA)
Gutherman (No Cliché / SEGA)
Half-Life / Online (Gearbox + Captivation Digital Laboratories / Sierra)
Hamster Tale/Story (Culture Brain)
Hamunaptra see The Mummy
Harukaze Sentai V Force 2 (Bing Kids)
Heavy Metal F.A.K.K. 2 (Gathering of Developers, G.O.D. / Ritual Entertainment )
Hellgate (Jester Interactive)
Heroes of Might & Magic III (3DO / Ubi Soft)
Hiryu-no Ken Retsuden (Culture Brain)
Hot Spring Mahjong 2 (SEGA)
Hype: The Time Quest (Ubi Soft)
IHRA Drag Racing (Bethesda Softworks)
Independence War 2: Edge of Chaos (Particle Systems / Infogrames)
Innocent Tears (Kobi / Global A)
Iris Angel see Nijiiro Tenshi
Jambo Safari + Emergency Call Ambulance + Brave Fire Fighters (SEGA)
Jarman 2 see Onsei Ninshiki Mahjong: Jarman 2
Jet Set Radio 2 / Jet Set Radio Future (Smilebit / SEGA)
Jump Runner (Glass Ghost)
K1 Dream (Xing)
Last Bronx 2 (SEGA)
Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2 (Crystal Dynamics / Eidos)
Legend of the Blade Masters (Ronin / Ripcord)
Let's Make a Monster see Monster wo Tsukurou!
Links LS see ESPN Links Golf
Littledream (Panther)
Lost World: Jurassic Park (SEGA / AM3)
Love Mahjong - Melty School (Culture Brain)
M.O.U.T. 2025 see Military Operations on Urban Terrain 2025
Major League Soccer (Konami)
Max Payne (Remedy / Rockstar / Take 2 / Apogee)
Messiah (Shiny / Interplay)
Metal Max Overdrive (ASCII)
Metal Max Wild Eyes (ASCII)
Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator (Microsoft + Konami)
Microsoft Links LS see ESPN Links Golf
Midnight GT (Rage)
Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits Volume 3 (Midway)
Military Operations on Urban Terrain 2025 see Shrapnel: Urban Warfare 2025
Missile Command 3D (Hasbro)
Mojo Rally see Austin Powers: Mojo Rally
Monster Breeder (NEC / UFO Interactive)
Monster Racer (Microids)
Monster Truck (Konami)
Monster wo Tsukurou! (SEGA)
New Worlds see Star Trek: New Worlds
Nijiiro Tenshi (Japan Corporation)
Ohzumo (Bottom Up)
Onsei Ninshiki Mahjong: Jarman 2 (Visit / Bidget)
Outcast (Appeal / Infogrames)
Over the Top Soccer (SEGA)
PBA Tour Bowling 2001 (Bethesda Softworks)
Picassio (Promethean)
Planet of the Apes (Fox Interactive / Visiware Studios)
Playmobile Hype (Ubisoft)
Princess Maker 4 (Gainax)
Project Propeller Online / Propeller Head (see Propeller Arena Online)
Propeller Arena Online: Aviation Battle Championship (AM2 / SEGA)
Quark (Quantic Dream)
Quest of the Blade Masters (Ripcord)
Renegade Racers (Promethean / Interplay)
Resurrection
Rings (Konami)
Roswell Conspiracy Theories (Crawfish / Red Storm)
Rune (Gathering of Developers, G.O.D. / Human Head)
S.W.A.T. 3 (Sierra)
Sanity - Aiken's Artifact (Monolith / Fox Interactive)
Scooby Doo
SD Legend of Hiryu's Fist see Hiryu-no Ken Retsuden
SD Legend of the Flying Dragon EX (Culture Brain)
SEGA Worldwide Soccer 2001 (SEGA)
Shadowman: 2econd Coming (Iguana / Acclaim)
Shienryu 2 (Warashi)
Shiken - Evenstar
Shrapnel: Urban Warfare 2025 (Zombie / Ripcord)
Sierra Game Room (Sierra)
Sierra Sports: Game Room (Sierra)
Sim City 3000 (Maxis)
Skies (Paradigm / SegaSoft)
Sonic & Knuckles RPG (SEGA)
Soul Reaver 2: Legacy of Kain: Publisher: Eidos Interactive Developer:
Crystal Dynamics
South Park: Deeply Impacted (Iguana / Acclaim)
Space Griffon (Panther Software)
Space Invaders (Activision)
Spec Ops 2 / Online (Zombie / Ripcord)
Speed Devils 2 (Ubi Soft)
Star Trek: New Worlds (Binary Asylum + RuneCraft / Interplay)
Star Wars: Super Bombad Racing (Lucas Learning / LucasArts)
Streets of Rage 4 (SEGA)
Substance
Super Monkey Ball (Amusement Vision / SEGA)
Supreme Snowboarding see Boarder Zone
SWAT 3: Close Quarters Battle (Sierra)
System Shock 2 (Looking Glass Studios / Vatical Entertainment)
Take the Bullet (Red Lemon / SEGA)
Ten6 see 10six
Test Drive Cycles
Test Drive Off-Road 3
The House of the Dead 3 (SEGA)
The Legend of the Nibelungen see The Ring
The Mummy (Rebellion + Konami / Fox Interactive)
The New Batman Adventures (Ubisoft New York)
The Planet of the Apes (Visiware / Fox Interactive)
The Ring: The Legend of the Nibelungen (Cryo / Success)
The Road to El Dorado see Gold and Glory: The Road to El Dorado
The World's Scariest Police Chases: Deadly Pursuit (Teeny Weeny Games / Fox Interactive)
Thunderboats (Perception)
Time Crisis II (Namco)
Title Defense (Climax UK)
Toe Jam & Earl III
Tokyo Bus Guide: From Today, You're Also the Driver (Fortyfive)
ToonCar (Akaei / Revistronic)
Top of the Formula Racing (Fujicom)
Total Annihilation 2 (Cavedog / GT Interactive)
Trespasser (DreamWorks)
Trinity
Tropico (PopTop / G.O.D., Gathering of Developers)
Turok 2: Seeds of Evil (Iguana US / Acclaim)
Type X: Spiral Nightmare (SEGA)
UEFA Striker 2001 / Millennium (Rage)
UFC: Tapout see Ultimate Fighting Championship: Tapout
Ultimate Fighting Championship: Tapout (Crave / Anchor Inc.)
Unreal (GT Interactive)
V Force 2 see Harukaze Sentai V Force 2
V.I.P. (Kalisto / Ubi Soft)
Victory Goal 2001 (SEGA)
Virtua Golf (Wow Entertainment / SEGA)
Virtua Striker 3 (Amusement Vision / SEGA)
Virtual Pool 3 featuring Jeanette Lee
Viva Soccer (Interplay / Virgin)
VR Baseball 2000
VR Football
VR Hockey
Warmonkeys see Dogs of War
Warzone 2100 (Pumpkin Studios / Eidos)
Wave Runner (SEGA)
Whiplash 2 (Interplay)
Wild Water World Championships see Renegade Racers
Wipeout (Psygnosis Liverpool Studio)
Woody Woodpecker Racing (Konami / Universal Interactive)
Worms Pinball (Team 17 / Infogrames)
WWW Soccer (Clean Flight)
Xena: Warrior Princess
Zeman Mahjong (Naxat)

I just took some quick pics of my current Dreamcast collection:
http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/DreamcastGames2013_001.jpg

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/DreamcastGames2013_002.jpg

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/DreamcastGames2013_003.jpg

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/library_pics/DreamcastGames2013_004.jpg

Robotwo
03-19-2013, 12:27 PM
Trespasser (DreamWorks)


OH MY GOOOOOD! D:

Please tell me there's at least a prototype dump or something of it.
I F*CKIN' love trespasser :x

sheath
03-19-2013, 12:33 PM
If there is a proto of Trespasser for Dreamcast I haven't seen it. Also, I don't think that list is nearly complete either. I basically consider any Naomi games that made it into third party titles are canceled Dreamcast games. Shinobi on PS2 looks like a Dreamcast game with the texture resolution cut in half. The Otogi games and pretty much anything else on Xbox seem like they started life on Dreamcast to me. I would pretty much like to claim that anything using CRI-ware is potentially a Dreamcast project that got moved over.

Gogogadget
03-19-2013, 12:57 PM
I'm missing the point you're trying to make... So you like the same games coming out for three systems at a time following " game trends?" For example....COD on 360/PS3 and WII? You're talking about gaming trends? I'm not following what you're saying.
Your whole argument sounds Playstation fan-boyish.... "The PS2 is better because iunno, and the dreamcasts controller sucks. Oh and the PS2 has superior games. "

I personally love 2D games, and the dreamcast brought those games to the table for me. What games have you played for the Dreamcast? I'm not trying to convince you, but if you haven't played half of the library or some of the good games on the system, then how can you pass judgement?

I said the PS2 has a superior library of games, okay fair enough, it's not hard when the PS2 had a shelf life of 1999-2012 (even if the releases following 2007ish are barely worthwhile).

Games i've played on Dreamcast? The Sonic Adventure games, Shenmue 1 & 2, Jet Set Radio, Chu Chu Rocket (personal favourite on the system), Street Fighter 3, Sega Rally 2, Crazy Taxi, Powerstone, Resident Evil Code Veronica, and some others that i'm probably forgetting. If I honest and truthfully hated everything about the Dreamcast, I wouldn't post in this thread, and yeah there are a lot of games I haven't played (usually down to price and availability) that I could probably check out, but from what I have played verses what I played on later consoles my preference just lies on the PS2 really.

Although I will be staying tuned to this thread to see if there are any gems on the Dreamcast waiting for me to pick them up.

promking
03-19-2013, 02:48 PM
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vsc4ugwYM1c/UURlHwFa1yI/AAAAAAAAQFc/UHJfLDz9vxU/s1301/IMG_20130316_072634_059.jpg

My local haul the other day for 60 bucks for the three of them.

I love my Dreamcast

Now tonight I have to show pictures of my personal DC collection.

The Jackal
03-19-2013, 02:56 PM
Sonic & Knuckles RPG (SEGA)


Wasn't that what Sonic Adventure became? :? I didn't think the two were two all-together different projects.

j_factor
03-19-2013, 03:28 PM
Sonic & Knuckles RPG became Sonic Heroes, I thought.

A Black Falcon
03-19-2013, 03:28 PM
worst post ever, even by your standards. I hope to god that this is just a troll attempt. dreamcast is absolute racinggame heaven. I've never even heard such ridiculous claims like yours before

You do know that I only was referring to the systems' first-party racing games, right? Racing games have always been one of Sega's best genres, but the only Sega racing games on the Dreamcast are Sega Rally 2 (an okay game, but not as good as the first one on Saturn), Flag to Flag (boring and not that good), Sega GT (mediocre and in a subgenre I find boring anyway), Daytona USA 2001 (most content of any version of Daytona, but the controls are busted... the first Saturn version is MUCH more fun to play.), and F355 Challenge (super-realistic game I have never played and never will). Hang-On, Power Drift, and Outrun were also included in a few things (Shenmue games, Yu Suzuki Game Works). And that's it. Most of the better DC racing games are third party titles. It's also shameful that Sega didn't release one single DC racing game with a 3-4 player splitscreen mode, even though they put four controller ports on the system. What the heck? That's just stupid.

Where were Daytona 2 and Scud Race? Where was a better port of Sega Rally 2? Where were ports of games like Indy 500 or Motor Raid (such an incredible game, it's tragic it never got a home port!)? Seriously, Sega's Dreamcast racing game lineup was thin and mediocre. Did we really need a fifth or sixth home release of Daytona USA, instead of something new or at least an arcade port (or two) we hadn't seen before, for instance? And where were the four player splitscreen racing games, like all of the ones the N64 had?

Also, as I suggested in my last post, it's too bad that the DC died before Outrun 2 (and then 2006) came out... that game's my favorite Sega racing game of that generation, and Outrun 2006 for PS2 is my favorite racing game on that system.


The Dreamcast era was the best, most exciting time in gaming for me. The stuff Sega was putting out back then just seemed so new and different. Games like Sonic Adventure, Blue Stinger, Jet Grind Radio, Toy Commander, Crazy Taxi, Zombie Revenge, Sword of the Berserk, D2, etc. were absolutely amazing back in the day and are still some of my favorite games of all time. I was absolutely crushed when Sega pulled the plug and left the hardware business.

After the Dreamcast I bought an Xbox but pretty much lost interest in video games soon after. It just wasn't the same for me anymore for some reason.

I still play my Dreamcast more than any other system I own.
I considered getting a Dreamcast when it came out, but much like the Game Gear before it, I ended up getting a Nintendo system instead (N64, in that case; I didn't have an N64 before Spetember 1999). I finally got a DC in summer '07... but yeah, it's a great console, I love it. My cousins had a DC in '00-'02, so I did play it some back then. Unfortunately they went through two of them, as both of their DCs' lasers died (the first one while the system was still alive so they got it replaced or repaired by Sega, but after the second died, they had to just give up on playing it again, but mine's still working fine... (Mine is a model 0 system)


There's a lot more to graphical quality than just raw polygon counts. Just as an example, Test Drive Le Mans on the Dreamcast is pushing about the same amount of polygons as Sega GT does, but it looks much, much better. Same deal with Gran Turismo 4 on the PS2, which I've heard has about the same polygon count as Le Mans. Good art direction has a much bigger impact on the look of a game than the number of polygons does.

I mean, Triggerheart Exelica apparently has the highest polygon count of any Dreamcast game by a large amount, but it probably wouldn't be very high on my list of best-looking DC games...
It is true that polygon counts aren't everything, but it's not just about polygon counts and art design. It's also about the graphical features supported in each systems' hardware, and isn't the DC lacking in some important categories compared to the other systems of the generation? I forget the details though. It's certainly lacking in terms of what games actually use, anyway...

But yes, had the DC lasted longer, I do imagine that we'd see many more DC games that look like the better ones, like Test Drive Le Mans or Dead or Alive 2, and fewer that look like PS1/N64 ports. But still, the system clearly is less powerful than any of the others, by a big margin in the cases of the Gamecube or Xbox. PS2 is closer, but still, when the PS2 is pushed, it can go way past the DC overall... could the DC get even halfway towards God of War 2? That'd be interesting...


Huh? Are you seriously saying that the Dreamcast is sub-PSP in terms of graphics? I don't agree with that at all.
Well, they are pretty close anyway. I'm not sure which one is more powerful, but the PSP has a faster CPU and can push more polygons... the DC probably has better image quality, but that's true for the DC vs. PS2 too.

j_factor
03-19-2013, 03:34 PM
It is true that polygon counts aren't everything, but it's not just about polygon counts and art design. It's also about the graphical features supported in each systems' hardware, and isn't the DC lacking in some important categories compared to the other systems of the generation?

Not really. You're thinking of PS2.


But yes, had the DC lasted longer, I do imagine that we'd see many more DC games that look like the better ones, like Test Drive Le Mans or Dead or Alive 2, and fewer that look like PS1/N64 ports. But still, the system clearly is less powerful than any of the others, by a big margin in the cases of the Gamecube or Xbox. PS2 is closer, but still, when the PS2 is pushed, it can go way past the DC overall... could the DC get even halfway towards God of War? That'd be interesting...

I don't know of anything on PS2 that's "way past the DC overall". You're being rather hyperbolic.

DarkDragon
03-19-2013, 03:39 PM
Had a lot of fun the short time I had a Dreamcast. It got stolen and I never bought another one. I really enjoyed the fighting games on it. Marvel vs Capcom 2, Capcom vs SNK, Street Fighter III, Street Fighter Alpha 3, Project Justice, Mark of the Wolves, and on and on.

sheath
03-19-2013, 03:50 PM
On the PS2 versus Dreamcast polygon performance, this article (http://research.scee.net/files/presentations/PSP/HowFarHaveWeGot.pdf) came up in the 6th generation Comparison thread. On page 13 you can see that 60% of PS2 software was running at 25-30FPS at 52,000 polygons per frame by 2003, which amounts to only 1.5 million polygons per second. That plus 2005's port of RE4 only running at 900k polygons per second means that whatever technical throughput the PS2 is capable of in a vacuum was rarely if ever achieved in that generation.

If the Dreamcast had lasted a full console generation its successor would have been coming out in 2003-04 anyway.

old man
03-19-2013, 07:27 PM
I don't know sheath. You're argument that everyone but Sega failed the Dreamcast seems pretty backwards to me. The PS2 may have been the favorite, but the DC wasn't a flop. I think it was at least as successful as the Gamecube in the two years it was released. I hear this "sega was out of money stuff", and everyone points to the dreamcast, but nobody ever mentions over budgeted, niche, pet projects like Shenmue. Maybe if Shenmue had never existed Sega wouldn't have canceled the Dreamcast?

sheath
03-19-2013, 07:33 PM
I don't know sheath. You're argument that everyone but Sega failed the Dreamcast seems pretty backwards to me. The PS2 may have been the favorite, but the DC wasn't a flop. I think it was at least as successful as the Gamecube in the two years it was released. I hear this "sega was out of money stuff", and everyone points to the dreamcast, but nobody ever mentions over budgeted, niche, pet projects like Shenmue. Maybe if Shenmue had never existed Sega wouldn't have canceled the Dreamcast?

It isn't that everybody but Sega failed the Dreamcast, that isn't my argument. It is that Megacorps and consumers actively caused the Dreamcast to fail. Sega had its shortcomings, principally in cash reserves to endure a generation of losses on the console front like Nintendo and Microsoft did. I am not discounting that. What the Dreamcast game library proves, though, is that the consumer didn't care about quality games and wasn't shopping around at the time.

A Black Falcon
03-19-2013, 07:53 PM
Not really. You're thinking of PS2.
What, the DC has everything the GC and Xbox do? I thought that wasn't quite true... I know the PS2 doesn't either though, yeah.


I don't know of anything on PS2 that's "way past the DC overall". You're being rather hyperbolic.
Games like the God of War games are, graphically, way past anything I've seen on DC.


On the PS2 versus Dreamcast polygon performance, this article (http://research.scee.net/files/presentations/PSP/HowFarHaveWeGot.pdf) came up in the 6th generation Comparison thread. On page 13 you can see that 60% of PS2 software was running at 25-30FPS at 52,000 polygons per frame by 2003, which amounts to only 1.5 million polygons per second. That plus 2005's port of RE4 only running at 900k polygons per second means that whatever technical throughput the PS2 is capable of in a vacuum was rarely if ever achieved in that generation.

If the Dreamcast had lasted a full console generation its successor would have been coming out in 2003-04 anyway.
That last point is a good one; Sega probably would have had a new system by late 2004, so the DC wouldn't have to compete with last-gen GC/Xbox/PS2 games; their next console would have been out by then. That would help. But still, Dreamcast vs. Xbox would have resulted in some pretty painful comparisons for the DC, I think. What, Halo vs. Outtrigger? Yeah. :) (Both of those games were first-party-published releases from 2001...)

Of course graphics aren't everything -- the PS2 won, after all -- but still, I do think that it would have hurt the DC if it'd survived, even considering that Sega only needed to get to ~2004, that DC graphics could have been better (and would have been had it lasted longer), and that they compared well to PS2 graphics from the early years of the PS2's life. Even considering those things, there was still a gap.


It isn't that everybody but Sega failed the Dreamcast, that isn't my argument. It is that Megacorps and consumers actively caused the Dreamcast to fail. Sega had its shortcomings, principally in cash reserves to endure a generation of losses on the console front like Nintendo and Microsoft did. I am not discounting that. What the Dreamcast game library proves, though, is that the consumer didn't care about quality games and wasn't shopping around at the time.
It is true that Sega had amazing games but not enough people were buying them, yeah. No question. The biggest problem was simply that PS2 hype was so massive that no one else had a chance... not Sega, not Nintendo, and not Microsoft. Sega only went out while Nintendo and MS didn't because Sega had no money, while MS had billions to burn, and Nintendo had a very profitable handheld to help out, plus they weren't selling the GC at a loss, like Sega was with the Dreamcast pretty much through its entire life. That did NOT help, when Sega was already in deep financial trouble. Sega really had boxed itself in because of its failing finances; as I've said before, I can't see a scenario where Sega stayed in as a hardware maker for much longer than they did unless the DC had been a massive smash hit success console, like the Wii was from '06-'09 or something like that. Short of that, with their finances, how could they have stayed in? I mean, the DC wasn't selling nearly well enough, but wasn't doing THAT badly either (it was going to finish third or fourth, but had sold over 10 million systems worldwide in about 3 years... could be worse). Sega just could not afford to stay in the industry anymore.

Also though, I think that the DC was out too early (as I suggested earlier); most people didn't want a next-gen system yet in 1998-'99. Sega had to release it then because the Saturn was dead, but as I said, that's why fixing '90s Sega would result in Sega releasing some other console, a year or two after the DC was. And I know Sega could not afford it, but had they not messed up the Saturn/32X era so badly and had had a bit more money... Dreamcast with DVD playback could have been huge.

promking
03-19-2013, 08:32 PM
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_Dyk8bz7DsE/UUjzfINMVsI/AAAAAAAAQSU/wunQ5ael2-g/s1019/IMG_20130319_192253_841.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--U01Ais3OZA/UUj0TR3ymHI/AAAAAAAAQSw/tRld7XDZOKg/s1019/IMG_20130319_192616_191.jpg

I love my dreamcast.

FuturePrimitive
03-19-2013, 09:17 PM
I wish I had more games for my Dreamcast. I have one. Sega Rally 2. College makes me broke.

Good game though!

sheath
03-19-2013, 09:36 PM
On the topic of whether the Dreamcast could manage Gamecube or Xbox quality graphics, this came up in the 6th generation thread (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?22176-Comparison-of-6th-generation-game-console-hardware&p=548086&viewfull=1#post548086). I see a number of ways to look at this question, but all of them boil down to what the games actually managed to pull off. There are demos that have the PS2 showing a single polygonal image at 17 million polygons per second and the Xbox doing something more in the 47 million range, but there are no games that even approach that low end. A Pentium III 500Mhz and a Riva TNT AGP card maxes out at 2.5 Million polygons per second with one light source in 3D Mark 2000. A Riva TNT 2 would obviously do better, but at the time the difference between tile based renderers and hardware T&L was still undecided. The SH4 is undoubtedly more capable (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?22176-Comparison-of-6th-generation-game-console-hardware&p=537278&viewfull=1#post537278) of polygon throughput than the Pentium III.

So once again we need games to be optimized for the GPU to take advantage of either system. With 64MB of RAM and the Nvidia GPU including hardware T&L, the Xbox should handily be ahead in every technical area though.

Vector2013
03-19-2013, 09:41 PM
I wish I had more games for my Dreamcast. I have one. Sega Rally 2. College makes me broke.

Good game though!

The mere fact Sega management were fools in the red from 1995 to 2001 and the mere SHADOW of PS2 with dvd player or dvd recorder (in Japan) ended the DC. They couldn't give the DC away. literally. Now who still goes to a PS2 to play dvds, or even cares ?

There are cool games for DC, PS2 and XBox. I don't think DC could do anything close to Ninja Gaiden on XBox or Black for PS2. But I play my DC now. Why ? Not just to watch vcds. Not just because of homemade apps. Not just to play open source homebrew games. Not just to play SD ISOs. Not just to go online. Not just to play emulators on it. Not just to play ISOs or retail games. But because it is fun and all of those things. Plus Midway basically made the wii remote on DC first.

oKtZysYGDLE

gamevet
03-19-2013, 09:58 PM
I've put together a pretty solid Dreamcast collection since 1999. It's a great console that came around at just the right time for my gaming needs. It was the main gaming console for me, for about 2 years.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/Gamevet/Collection2010.jpg


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/Gamevet/Collection2009.jpg


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/Gamevet/Collection2008.jpg


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/Gamevet/Collection2007.jpg

FuturePrimitive
03-19-2013, 10:03 PM
Awesome collections posted... So jealous!

promking
03-19-2013, 10:09 PM
I need some dreamcast homebrew suggestions. Anyone have dreamshell installed on their system?

Vector2013
03-19-2013, 10:32 PM
I need some dreamcast homebrew suggestions. Anyone have dreamshell installed on their system?

I do, here is my tutorial that helped many :

http://www.dc-swat.ru/forum/thread-1878-page-2.html

AdamL
03-19-2013, 10:39 PM
Well, they are pretty close anyway. I'm not sure which one is more powerful, but the PSP has a faster CPU and can push more polygons... the DC probably has better image quality, but that's true for the DC vs. PS2 too.

I highly doubt that. From what I've seen the Dreamcast is clearly much better at rendering 3D than the PSP. I'm not sure the PSP can even render as many polygons as the Zeebo can.


That last point is a good one; Sega probably would have had a new system by late 2004, so the DC wouldn't have to compete with last-gen GC/Xbox/PS2 games; their next console would have been out by then. That would help. But still, Dreamcast vs. Xbox would have resulted in some pretty painful comparisons for the DC, I think. What, Halo vs. Outtrigger? Yeah. :) (Both of those games were first-party-published releases from 2001...)

Of course graphics aren't everything -- the PS2 won, after all -- but still, I do think that it would have hurt the DC if it'd survived, even considering that Sega only needed to get to ~2004, that DC graphics could have been better (and would have been had it lasted longer), and that they compared well to PS2 graphics from the early years of the PS2's life. Even considering those things, there was still a gap.

The Dreamcast was always going to be Sega's last console, regardless of how well it sold.

Anyway, I think you're grossly overestimating the difference between all of these systems. Later Dreamcast games likely wouldn't have looked much different from PS2/GC/Xbox games of the time. Features that no Dreamcast game ever used like bump-mapping probably would have made a big difference in how later DC games would have looked. And the way that the PowerVR2 renders things might actually give the DC an edge over the PS2 in doing complex scenes with lots of overlapping geometry.

Regardless, I don't think the Dreamcast's supposedly underpowered hardware really mattered at all to consumers. Just take a look at the best-selling Gamecube games: Super Mario Sunshine, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Mario Kart Double Dash, Luigi's Mansion, freaking Animal Crossing - those games are all pretty much on the same level graphically as stuff you can see on the Dreamcast, but I don't remember anyone complaining about how unimpressive they looked and saying the Gamecube wouldn't be able to keep up with the PS2 and Xbox back then.

And seriously, Halo vs. Outtrigger? That's a really poor comparison. Those two games couldn't be more different.


I've put together a pretty solid Dreamcast collection since 1999. It's a great console that came around at just the right time for my gaming needs. It was the main gaming console for me, for about 2 years.

Sweet collection, I really need to get Bangai-O someday. It looks awesome.

Da_Shocker
03-19-2013, 10:40 PM
I wonder why Sega didn't releases the DC in the US and Europe first rather than releasing it in Japan. The Saturn was still fairing pretty well in Japan while it was dead here and in Europe. And the US and Europe had always been more receptive to Sega than Japan ever has. Look at how the Japanese treated the launch of the DC it sure paled in comparison to the Saturn. While in the US and Europe it took off. I can see why Sony and Nintendo would release shit in Japan first but not Sega.

gamevet
03-19-2013, 11:05 PM
I wonder why Sega didn't releases the DC in the US and Europe first rather than releasing it in Japan. The Saturn was still fairing pretty well in Japan while it was dead here and in Europe. And the US and Europe had always been more receptive to Sega than Japan ever has. Look at how the Japanese treated the launch of the DC it sure paled in comparison to the Saturn. While in the US and Europe it took off. I can see why Sony and Nintendo would release shit in Japan first but not Sega.

It's called pride. It wasn't until the bitter end that SOJ let pride go and pushed their chips towards the western market.

Vector2013
03-20-2013, 12:14 AM
-ouLuSz4TaI

SEGA.GENESIS1989
03-20-2013, 01:32 AM
.... BLAH BLAH BLAH

oKtZysYGDLE

I always get a kick when watching this video. What I else do I get a kick out of? Patrick Goschy's LinkedIn profile in which he states that [he] "developed the Nintendo Wii controller for the Wii game platform, licensed from Midway Amusement Games Inc." (SOURCE: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/patrick-goschy/5/307/360 )

Whether he was ripped off or not, there is no denying that this man was (and probably still is) very talented.


Back on topic ... I'm not sure SEGA was in any kind of position to participate in the console race. I'm sure the previous missteps with the previous consoles took their toll on the company's image. Even though I've always been a loyal fan of the brand, I myself took a wait and see approach when the console was released. Like Golem and his want for that precious ring, I too wanted to own the Dreamcast. But everything I read about and saw on television was how great the PS2 was. SONY was winning the media campaign and as a result was also winning market share. And with that SEGA's dreams and aspirations and a hardware developer were over. I would be lying to you if I said I wasn't extremely saddened to hear the news that day.

In hindsight, I'm actually glad that they transitioned to become a third-party software developer. With the advent of tablets, phone apps, and the rise of the PC once again I believe that as a publisher/developer they have more flexibility to respond and adapt to changing trends. If you asked me that 3 years ago, I would have said otherwise!

Addendum: You guys have a nice collection of games. What is your favourite Dreamcast game?

Vector2013
03-20-2013, 01:34 AM
Back on topic ...


Originally Posted by djvectorman
.... BLAH BLAH BLAH


Have some kind of problem ? Why put blah blah blah in MY quote when I talked about this topic ?

SEGA.GENESIS1989
03-20-2013, 01:36 AM
Hahaha! It is ... erm ... was my new way of cutting down on the actual quotation! :p

I guess you could say it's a lesson learned! I'll refrain from doing that again! ;)

Vector2013
03-20-2013, 01:39 AM
It's cool, I was just curious. No problem just please don't put words I didn't say in my quotes. Which you said you won't so cool. If I write paragraphs but you want to trim some of my quote down that is cool, I just thought you meant I was being off topic or at the least you disagreed with everything I said.

SEGA.GENESIS1989
03-20-2013, 02:15 AM
Sure. Not a problem! I will follow suit! :)

QuickSciFi
03-20-2013, 02:41 AM
The Dreamcast was the last system I was wholesomely excited about before/during/after its release. I sadly didn't get to enjoy the 32bit Generation ('matter of funds and all); but when it got to the 6th with the DC, I was stoked that Sega was coming out with a new system. Man, those were the days. I even followed-up with all the official issues of the DC magazine. That was awesome. Few systems (and I mean few) have so many games released for it that I actually want to play. Heck, I'm still discovering more games for it and I haven't even fulfilled my "Want List" even though I must have like 75 games already. I love the Dreamcast.


Long live the Dreamcast
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/300/6/0/sega_dreamcast_wallpaper_by_gamezaddic-d31m7rd.jpg

A Black Falcon
03-20-2013, 03:01 AM
I highly doubt that. From what I've seen the Dreamcast is clearly much better at rendering 3D than the PSP. I'm not sure the PSP can even render as many polygons as the Zeebo can.
PSP 3d looks pretty ugly, but the polygon counts aren't that low... and remember, it's got a faster CPU than the Dreamcast, for sure, even if games often use the slower speed (that's about DC-speed), some use the faster mode.


The Dreamcast was always going to be Sega's last console, regardless of how well it sold.
No, if it had sold extremely well, Sega probably would have stayed in the industry. They did have some initial plans for a new system in the works, didn't they?


Anyway, I think you're grossly overestimating the difference between all of these systems. Later Dreamcast games likely wouldn't have looked much different from PS2/GC/Xbox games of the time. Features that no Dreamcast game ever used like bump-mapping probably would have made a big difference in how later DC games would have looked. And the way that the PowerVR2 renders things might actually give the DC an edge over the PS2 in doing complex scenes with lots of overlapping geometry.
No, I think Dreamcast fans like the under-estimate the size of the difference. I love the DC, as it's got a lot of great games, a very good controller, great system design, great image quality (as I said, far sharper looking than PS2), etc... but in power, it's pretty clear that it's no match for the other systems, GC and Xbox particularly. I know I've said before that DC graphics -- that is, as they are in the games that were actually released -- generally look to me like N64 graphics, just at 640x480 resolution and with higher quality textures and better framerates, but with geometry not too far removed from what you see in the better N64 games. There are a few DC games that show that the DC can do better than that, such as Under Defeat and Dead or Alive 2, but even most DC exclusives fall right into that description there. But I love the DC despite its graphics, and it's one of my favorite systems... I like it more than the PS2 or Xbox, no question. (Not GC, though.)


Regardless, I don't think the Dreamcast's supposedly underpowered hardware really mattered at all to consumers. Just take a look at the best-selling Gamecube games: Super Mario Sunshine, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Mario Kart Double Dash, Luigi's Mansion, freaking Animal Crossing - those games are all pretty much on the same level graphically as stuff you can see on the Dreamcast, but I don't remember anyone complaining about how unimpressive they looked and saying the Gamecube wouldn't be able to keep up with the PS2 and Xbox back then.
Uh, yeah, no. If you seriously can't tell that games like Luigi's Mansion or Super Mario Sunshine have far better graphics than anything the DC could do... well, you're completely wrong, that's for sure, and aren't looking very closely either. Those games use all kinds of visual effects you don't see on the DC, and I wouldn't be surprised if they push more polygons than you see on the DC, too. Now, Animal Crossing I'll give you -- that game is basically a slightly enhanced N64 port, after all -- but the rest of those? No way! Mario Sunshine, Luigi's Mansion, and MK Double Dash have issues, but their graphics aren't one of them. I was just playing Luigi's Mansion recently, actually, for the first time; I passed on it back at launch because it sounded too short and questionably fun. Well, the graphics are fantastic (I'd heard they were good, but under-rated them before playing it...), but the gameplay? Yeah, that's not so good. I like the adventure aspects, but the combat's not much fun, and it is quite short. Getting back to the point, the GC game I got first, when I bought the system shortly after it released, was Rogue Leader. And yeah, there's no way in the world the Dreamcast could ever have done that.

But anyway. I had, and have, some DC ports for the GC, such as Sonic Adventure 2, Phantasy Star Online 1+2, and Skies of Arcadia, and some Naomi ports, like Beach Spikers and Super Monkey Ball. Those two DC ports particularly clearly do not use the Gamecube's power; you can tell that they're ports from a less powerful system, and both were visually enhanced for the GC, too. Beach Spikers and Super Monkey Ball look a little better, but still you can tell. The same is true for other games like Billy Hatcher... that game still looks more Dreamcast than Gamecube. I like the Dreamcast look well enough, so I don't mind too much, but it is true. My much bigger issue is with how abysmal most Sonic Team game cameras were... but still, purely comparing the technical graphics, say, Skies of Arcadia is no match for Baten Kaitos. Overall Skies is my favorite JRPG ever, but the graphics clearly are dated for a Gamecube game.


And seriously, Halo vs. Outtrigger? That's a really poor comparison. Those two games couldn't be more different.
They're both first/second party FPSes released in 2001... I know, Outtrigger is an arena game, but I don't know how much better it fares compared to UT or Q3, considering how absurdly miniscule Outtriggers' levels are... I mean, it's a fun game, but the levels are far too small.

j_factor
03-20-2013, 03:19 AM
What, the DC has everything the GC and Xbox do? I thought that wasn't quite true... I know the PS2 doesn't either though, yeah.

DC does more than PS2.


Games like the God of War games are, graphically, way past anything I've seen on DC.

Sorry, I'm not seeing that at all. What, specifically, in God of War is so amazing graphically?

Waterfaller
03-20-2013, 03:32 AM
A good comparison between the PS2 and DC would be both releases of Dead or Alive 2. Granted, the light effects in the PS2 version are quite nice, but man, it's pretty jagged up. The DC version looks much smoother in comparison.

j_factor
03-20-2013, 03:44 AM
Yeah, DOA2 looks significantly worse on PS2. So does Grandia II. And Crazy Taxi. And F355 Challenge. And pretty much every other game that was on both systems.

A Black Falcon
03-20-2013, 03:47 AM
I think that everyone would agree that it took several years for the PS2 to even begin to show its true graphical potential... the DC was much easier to develop for. It took time too, but the PS2 took more.


DC does more than PS2.
In some ways yes, in others no. Overall the PS2 wins in more categories, I think. PS2 graphics are full of ugly jaggies, but more visual effects are sometimes used (Rayman 2 for PS2 added some stuff versus the DC version, for instance; the framerate got worse, but the visuals slightly better effects-wise), polygon counts are higher, etc. And the "but DC graphics would have looked a lot better too so it could have kept up" excuse fails when you look at later-generation PS2 games, I think... the best defense I can think of there is "but the Dreamcast 2 would probably have been out by late 2004, so those games from 2005 and beyond wouldn't be being compared to the Dreamcast anyway."


Sorry, I'm not seeing that at all. What, specifically, in God of War is so amazing graphically?
God of War II, for sure, looks very impressive visually...

j_factor
03-20-2013, 04:02 AM
In some ways yes, in others no. Overall the PS2 wins in more categories, I think. PS2 graphics are full of ugly jaggies, but more visual effects are sometimes used (Rayman 2 for PS2 added some stuff versus the DC version, for instance; the framerate got worse, but the visuals slightly better effects-wise), polygon counts are higher, etc.

Rayman 2 didn't add any effects that I know of. It just had more polygons in some places. With a lower framerate and no progressive scan.

PS2 didn't have any graphical features the Dreamcast lacked. It's more powerful at processing raw polygons, but that's it. The PS2's GPU lacks several things that the Dreamcast has (along with Xbox and Gamecube).


And the "but DC graphics would have looked a lot better too so it could have kept up" excuse fails when you look at later-generation PS2 games, I think...

I don't think so. I don't think later-generation PS2 games look that great.


God of War II, for sure, looks very impressive visually...

I played through that game in its entirety, and I don't agree.

Chukka
03-20-2013, 04:30 AM
OK, so after playing my first ever DC last night, I can say that I'm very impressed. I love the smooth and colorful graphics. I absolutely hated the poor frame rates from the 32-64bit era and PS2 games often have poor frame rates too. PS2 obviously has the best library of games of the generation and the Gamecube has the worst (and I love Nintendo) but the DC has some impressive games too. And the games run very smooth which makes them playable even today.

BTW, XBOX was the first console of that generation that I owned but it is also the only one that I don't have anymore. I gave it away for free along with 10-20 games because I just never enjoyed the console. Most games were on PC anyway.

QuickSciFi
03-20-2013, 05:14 AM
Did I reach this thread too late? It's already looking like 'nitpicker's fest'.

I wont go in detail about "graphics", but what I know for certain is that most of the games that have been released for, both, the DC and the PS2 have had far better gameplay/controls and/or have appeared less buggy in their DC counterparts. The DC wins this one for me time and time again. Not to mention other systems (primarily the GameCube), where games like Evolution/Evolution2 and Skies of Arcadia were halfassedly ported (i.e.- No VMU, cutting down about half of Evolution's gameplay, rushing-up the stats and other such elements from Skies of Arcadia, which in turn made it lose its original mood, etc.).

The Primary example I have is:
1. Fur Fighters

Robotwo
03-20-2013, 06:11 AM
I for one would've loved to see the dreamcast version of Gun Valkyrie.

Would've made a nice addition to the already nice game library :)

Mr Smith
03-20-2013, 06:19 AM
DC does more than PS2.
:o Lies!

My PS2 makes me feel safe and warm, it looks after me when I'm sick and it loves; loves so much more than my DC ever did.

I hope everybody gets banned.

Robotwo
03-20-2013, 06:28 AM
That's a grand ol' bunch of tosh and you know it :Y

madmax2069
03-20-2013, 06:59 AM
I remember the feeling I had when I first fired up 4x4 evo and went online, absolutely loved playing 4x4 evo online.

I also loved the fact that you could also play against PC and Mac users. 4x4 evo was my first game I played online with a DC.

My second game I played online was Q3A, then finally PSO. I spent many hours playing PSO.

Thierry Henry
03-20-2013, 07:41 AM
The DC is one of my favorite systems as well.
I came to the party very late on, though. Only got my first DC related item in about mid-'07.

Seeing as others have posted a few pics, this is what I have so far,




http://i47.tinypic.com/2mov683.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/nd2ypv.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2lcpdty.jpg

sheath
03-20-2013, 01:41 PM
Alright, not sure if my previous post will be un-moderated anytime today, so here is a composite chart of the Dreamcast, Gamecube and Xbox's respective graphics chip capabilities.



GRAPHICS SUBSYSTEM


System LSI
PowerVR2DC "CLX"
Custom ATI/Nintendo "Flipper"
Custom nVidia graphics chip "X Chip", NV2A


Clock Frequency
100Mhz
162MHz
233MHz


Embedded Frame Buffer
8MB 100Mhz SDRAM
Approx. 2MB Sustainable Latency : 6.2ns (1T-SRAM)
64MB UMA


Embedded Texture Cache
8MB (up to 5X Hardware Texture Compression)
Approx. 1MB Sustainable Latency : 6.2ns (1T-SRAM)
64MB UMA


Texture Read Bandwidth
0.8GB/Second
10.4GB/second (Peak)
6.4GB/sec peak


Pixel Depth
32-Bit color and Z-Buffer
24-bit color and Z-Buffer
32-bit color and Z-buffer


Number of Pixel Pipes
1
4*
4


Number of Texturing Units
1
4*
8


Image Processing Functions
3D Engine: Per pixel loadable table fog, Image super-sampling/scene anti-aliasing, Tile based reduced bandwidth rendering engine, Modifier Volumes (Shadows, etc), Specular highlights with offset colors Alpha + Multipass Blending, Color key and alpha blended textures, D3D and OpenGL blend modes, Texture Mapping Support: Multi-texturing, Bump-mapping, Environment mapping, Bi-linear, Tri-linear, and Anisotropic Filtering, 5X Texture Decompression, Bus mastered parameter fetch, Translucency sorting 2D Engine: Full ROP, text and line primitives, Full VGA compatibility, YUV to RGB color space conversion, MPEG2 decode assist (motion compensation acceleration), Integrated 250Mhz DAC (1920x1440 x 16bpp @ 65Hz / 1600x1200 x32bpp @85Hz), Color key overlay, Multiple video windows

Fog, Subpixel Anti-aliasing, 8 Hardware Lights, Alpha Blending, Virtual Texture Design, Multi-texturing, Bump Mapping, Environment Mapping, MIP Mapping, Bilinear Filtering, Trilinear Filtering, Anisotropic Filtering, Real-time Hardware Texture Decompression (S3TC), Real-time Decompression of Display List, HW 3-line Deflickering filter
Programmable vertex and pixel shaders, fog, Subpixel Anti-aliasing, 8 Hardware Lights, Alpha Blending, Multi-texturing, Bump Mapping, Environment Mapping, MIP Mapping, Bilinear Filtering, Trilinear Filtering, Anisotropic Filtering, Real-time Hardware Texture Decompression (S3TC)



Real-world polygon rates
5 Million Polygons Per Second (32x32 pixel tiles, front facing visible only) *3.5M in DOA2, 5 Million in full effect scenes in Le Mans
6 million to 12 million polygons/second (Peak) (Assuming actual game conditions with complex models, fully textured, fully lit, etc.) * 3 Million in RE4
116.5 million (using strips), so 116.5 vertices/sec *Theoretical


Pixel Fill Rate
100MPixels/s (200-500MPixels/s effective, Tile Based Renderer, dependent on scene complexity)
648Mpixels/sec (assuming four pixel pipes)*
932Mpixels/sec


Texel Fill Rate
100Mtexels/sec (200 - 500 Mtexels/sec effective)
648Mtexels/sec (assuming one texturing unit per pixel pipe, four pixel pipes)*
1.82Gtexels/sec

Waterfaller
03-20-2013, 02:25 PM
I'd have loved to to see that bleemcast version of Final Fantasy IX in action. I bet it would have looked pretty damn nice!

sheath
03-20-2013, 02:28 PM
What were the static background image resolutions in the PS1 Final Fantasy games? I'd bet they were 320x240 or so, you can't really make that look better stretched to 640x480 even with anti aliasing.

Vector2013
03-20-2013, 02:37 PM
Anyone sad the DC was Sega last console or whatever, or they should do a DC2, it don't matter because in 5 years traditional consoles might be extinct anyway. The PS2 or XBox or PS3 will be sitting next to a DC in a museum.

sheath
03-20-2013, 02:45 PM
Hah, isn't that the truth. They won't even sit these consoles in a museum, word has it that all the archives care about is source code now.

A Black Falcon
03-20-2013, 03:20 PM
That "6 to 12 million" Gamecube polygon estimate was very conservative, so it's not really fair at all to compare it to Microsoft's invented "112 million" number next to it. Also, are the rest of the specs in some other post that doesn't exist? Like, the DC has ~26MB of RAM total, while the GC has ~40MB.

And I remember some discussion on whether Test Drive Le Mans actually gets to 5 million polys a second... where was that thread?

sheath
03-20-2013, 03:28 PM
That "6 to 12 million" Gamecube polygon estimate was very conservative, so it's not really fair at all to compare it to Microsoft's invented "112 million" number next to it. Also, are the rest of the specs in some other post that doesn't exist? Like, the DC has ~26MB of RAM total, while the GC has ~40MB.

And I remember some discussion on whether Test Drive Le Mans actually gets to 5 million polys a second... where was that thread?

I'm pretty sure the Test Drive Le Mans discussion was in one of the N64 threads, but I quoted it in the first page of the 6th generation comparison thread. the 5 million polygons number was arrived at in full effect scenes, with rain, sparks, break glow, etc all at once. In other words it was a minority of the scenes one would find in game but the engine allowed for that many polygons.

That is, in fact, what the "liberal" estimates for the polygon throughput for the other 6th gen consoles is for actually, the higher the theoretical number the easier it would be to make the same engine for the platform. As I have pointed out to you repeatedly, the 6th generation of games stuck well below 5 million polygons per second with all effects on, usually in the 1 million range actually.

Black_Tiger
03-20-2013, 03:33 PM
*I know I've said before that DC graphics -- that is, as they are in the games that were actually released -- generally look to me like N64 graphics, just at 640x480 resolution and with higher quality textures and better framerates, but with geometry not too far removed from what you see in the better N64 games.

I think that this has more to do with the rose colored glasses you have for the N64. The only DC games that had similar models as N64 games were ports of games from inferior hardware. Even early stuff like Sonic Adventure that was lowballed around non-final hardware have models that really are a generational leap in quality if you compare them and take into account how much is shown at once. Kinda like how many people couldn't appreciate Xbox 360 graphics early on and thought that they were only supporting a higher resolution.

I agree that that I don't believe that the DC could push nearly as many polygons with clean visuals as the GC/Xbox or PS2 with dirty/sloppy visuals, but it was still within the same league and balanced compromises would have produced comparable overall visuals if it had been pushed through to the end of the generation by most developers. The progress that was made within its short lifespan was greater than the first year and a half of competing consoles.

The DC was the first console to finally give us clean, solid, crisp and smooth 3D graphics. Then the PS2 was a step a backwards and a true successor to the sloppy visuals of the original Playstation.

sheath
03-20-2013, 04:08 PM
Right, the N64 never even approached 500,000 texture mapped polygons per second, much less textured and lit, in game. This persistence that the N64 was even close to 6th generation hardware is beyond foolish.

Anyway, here is another comparison of PS2, Xbox and Gamecube polygon throughput (pure output non-gameplay) that is very interesting:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/bib/pdf/p713-lalonde.pdf
From Page 8:




Platform
Gouraud

Lit

Skinned

Rabbit



PS2
17.0/22.6
10.9/14.7
8.5/11.5
25.2/31.8


XBox
47.2/91.4
22.4/43.4
14.2/30.3
63.9/93.8


NGC
18.7/NA
10.3/NA
7.2/NA
NA/NA


PC
24.1/46.1
15.9/20.9
5.1/10.9
26.3/36.2



Table 1: Performance figures of our system, in millions of polygons
per second and vertex indices submitted per second. The player
is a 3998 polygon model, drawn without texture or lighting, with
textures and lighting, and skinned with textures and lighting. The
bunny model is 69451 polygons. Bunny model courtesy of the Stanford
Computer Graphics Laboratory. The PC is a 1.4Ghz AMD
Athlon with an ATI Radeon 8500 graphics accelerator.


Note the decline in polygons per second as lighting and skinning is applied from left to right. This is full bore polygon performance for each system, no AI, physics, gameplay, IO or anything else is involved. As you can see, those higher spec numbers only apply to actual game performance in the most abstract way.

bultje112
03-20-2013, 06:04 PM
this is why dreamcast wins:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxBIWb3a1g

the dreamcast graphics alone are the best anti depressants and most joyful things in life.

Vector2013
03-20-2013, 06:59 PM
What is crazy is I can compress a 1080 avi and convert it on a vcd and it looks like regular dvd (not vhs like normal vcd) and play it on my DC. That and PS2 2 playing dvds or PS3 playing blu rays doesn't mean much in 2013 though. I play consoles for games.

Da_Shocker
03-20-2013, 07:13 PM
I think that this has more to do with the rose colored glasses you have for the N64. The only DC games that had similar models as N64 games were ports of games from inferior hardware. Even early stuff like Sonic Adventure that was lowballed around non-final hardware have models that really are a generational leap in quality if you compare them and take into account how much is shown at once. Kinda like how many people couldn't appreciate Xbox 360 graphics early on and thought that they were only supporting a higher resolution.

I agree that that I don't believe that the DC could push nearly as many polygons with clean visuals as the GC/Xbox or PS2 with dirty/sloppy visuals, but it was still within the same league and balanced compromises would have produced comparable overall visuals if it had been pushed through to the end of the generation by most developers. The progress that was made within its short lifespan was greater than the first year and a half of competing consoles.

The DC was the first console to finally give us clean, solid, crisp and smooth 3D graphics. Then the PS2 was a step a backwards and a true successor to the sloppy visuals of the original Playstation.

Seriously the DC shitted all over the N64 in terms of performance it's not even close lol. I can look at some Saturn and PSx games they compare very well to some of the graphics on the N64 hell some of them look better. The N64 along with the PS2 was probably one of the most overhyped systems of all time.

Vector2013
03-20-2013, 08:49 PM
There are many people who really care about the N64 ? It had Mario 3D, 007, Zelda...and sequels that were going to be on SNES but put on N64 just with 64 slapped on it. The N64 is steps up from Jaguar but that is it. Playstation owned the 32 bit and 64 bit generation. For all the people who get a laugh at Sega CD, 32 x and Saturn I get a laugh out of Virtua Boy, N64 and GameCube (maybe add WiiU, the DC Jr). And you know what, I know Game Boy (GB Color and every GB model ever made) has records, but Atari Lynx was scheduled to release in 1987 and it was light years beyond the Game Boy which looked like a Tiger Electronics unit compared to it. Not sure what a N64 has to do with DC generation anyway. DC > N64 and GameCube combined imo.

Black_Tiger
03-20-2013, 10:43 PM
Right, the N64 never even approached 500,000 texture mapped polygons per second, much less textured and lit, in game. This persistence that the N64 was even close to 6th generation hardware is beyond foolish.

No, I mean take/cherry pick the highest polygon models/environments of any/all N64 games, even low/non textured stuff like Nintendo's first party games (Mario 64/Zeldas/Smash Bros, etc)... and compare it to the number of polygons being used in so many Dreamcast games, even while ignoring all the other things the DC is doing at the same time. The difference is still massive.

The Power Stone games make Super Smash Bros Melee on Gamecube look like Super Smash Bros N64, let alone how the launch title Power Stone compares directly to the N64 game.

Compare any N64 3D fighter to VF3, DOA2, Soul Calibur. Compare the best 3D racers... compare Code Veronica, House of the Dead or Zombie Revenge to anything for N64. Hell, the 3D backgrounds from MVC2 alone are at least a full generational leap, polygon-wise-only, over all N64 games.

The Nintendo 64 still has lots of impressive 3D for the 32-bit generation... as do the Saturn and Playstation, -but the more visually impressive DC games (squeezed out within the DC's tiny lifespan) look like PS2/GC/Xbox games and don't look like N64 games any more than PS2/GC/Xbox games do.

old man
03-20-2013, 11:35 PM
It isn't that everybody but Sega failed the Dreamcast, that isn't my argument. It is that Megacorps and consumers actively caused the Dreamcast to fail. Sega had its shortcomings, principally in cash reserves to endure a generation of losses on the console front like Nintendo and Microsoft did. I am not discounting that. What the Dreamcast game library proves, though, is that the consumer didn't care about quality games and wasn't shopping around at the time.

I understand what you're saying, but it was Sega that put these kinds of negative impressions in people. They had a big image problem, and didn't try hard enough to undo the damage that had been done to their brand. I had absolutely no interest in the Dreamcast until I played a round of Sonic Adventure in the mall once. It changed my opinion about the system. They could have done more to reach other consumers also. I think games like Outtrigger could have reached the shooter crowd before Halo did (maybe not as successful, but enough to build interest). But Sega had developed a bad habit of throwing in the towel when things didn't go their way. It's like gamevet mentioned in this thread earlier, It was their own pride that hurt them most.

sheath
03-21-2013, 12:06 AM
I understand what you're saying, but it was Sega that put these kinds of negative impressions in people. They had a big image problem, and didn't try hard enough to undo the damage that had been done to their brand. I had absolutely no interest in the Dreamcast until I played a round of Sonic Adventure in the mall once. It changed my opinion about the system. They could have done more to reach other consumers also. I think games like Outtrigger could have reached the shooter crowd before Halo did (maybe not as successful, but enough to build interest). But Sega had developed a bad habit of throwing in the towel when things didn't go their way. It's like gamevet mentioned in this thread earlier, It was their own pride that hurt them most.

I see your seen saying and your response and see you again, er, yeah. Based on Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft's public image the trick seems to be how well they can orchestrate themselves as creative geniuses while hiding all of their huge screw ups with lots of money. Sega seemed to be of the PR mindset that if they made quality product consumers would come, except for the Genesis days they never seemed all that keen on fabricated self promotion and I always respected that. Even if others don't see Sega that way, I think it is a touch hyperbolic to say that Sega's public image was or is entirely their responsibility.

I mean really, Sony seems to be floundering in public image finally and rightly so but there are still droves of people who willfully expect them to pull something creative out of their ass when that has never really happened before. Nintendo can say "yeah we suck, but look! New Zelda/Mario!" and everybody is happy. And Microsoft, yeah.

A Black Falcon
03-21-2013, 12:28 AM
So how many polygons do the Rogue Leader and Rebel Strike games on GC push? Those are certainly two of the best-looking games on the system, or any system that generation...

Also, that comment that the DC was the first console with good-quality 3d... no way. Well, maybe under that very specific definition that was mentioned that might be true, but that definition is so specific that it doesn't mean very much. The first system with good-quality, precise, accurate 3d is the N64.


I see your seen saying and your response and see you again, er, yeah. Based on Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft's public image the trick seems to be how well they can orchestrate themselves as creative geniuses while hiding all of their huge screw ups with lots of money. Sega seemed to be of the PR mindset that if they made quality product consumers would come, except for the Genesis days they never seemed all that keen on fabricated self promotion and I always respected that. Even if others don't see Sega that way, I think it is a touch hyperbolic to say that Sega's public image was or is entirely their responsibility.

I mean really, Sony seems to be floundering in public image finally and rightly so but there are still droves of people who willfully expect them to pull something creative out of their ass when that has never really happened before. Nintendo can say "yeah we suck, but look! New Zelda/Mario!" and everybody is happy. And Microsoft, yeah.
The problem is that the Genesis is the only time that Sega tried hard to actually appeal to Western audiences... with the Saturn and Dreamcast they just kind of let their developers do their thing, and focused mostly on Japan. Sega's games got weirder and more unique, and that often resulted in some great games, but it came at a big cost in their Western support. The conflict between Sega of Japan wanting Japanese success, versus the things that they should have done to try to hold on to some of their Western base, is an obvious one... is it really American or European consumers' fault that they didn't want to get Saturns or Dreamcasts, when it's Sega that designed those systems for a different market, made lots of games that weren't interesting to audiences here, and did little to try to hold on to all of that marketshare and audience they'd grabbed with the Genesis? I don't really think that consumers can, or should, be blamed for that one!


No, I mean take/cherry pick the highest polygon models/environments of any/all N64 games, even low/non textured stuff like Nintendo's first party games (Mario 64/Zeldas/Smash Bros, etc)... and compare it to the number of polygons being used in so many Dreamcast games, even while ignoring all the other things the DC is doing at the same time. The difference is still massive.

The Power Stone games make Super Smash Bros Melee on Gamecube look like Super Smash Bros N64, let alone how the launch title Power Stone compares directly to the N64 game.

Compare any N64 3D fighter to VF3, DOA2, Soul Calibur. Compare the best 3D racers... compare Code Veronica, House of the Dead or Zombie Revenge to anything for N64. Hell, the 3D backgrounds from MVC2 alone are at least a full generational leap, polygon-wise-only, over all N64 games.
It's somewhat ironic that you accuse me of having blinders,, and then say that Power Stone 2 looks way better than SSBM... though you can't compare the two too directly, since one is 2.5d and the other 3d.

Also, please do compare racing games. Games like Pod 2, Speed Devils, 4 Wheel Thunder, and such really don't look much above N64 levels, apart from textures and effects. And games also released on the N64 like San Francisco Rush 2049 and Star Wars Ep. 1 Racer got fine marks for their graphics when released on DC, even though they're pretty much the same thing as the N64 versions, just with better textures and some more graphical effects. Hydro Thunder does look more notably better on DC, but even there, the textures and effects do a lot of the work... the water on the DC looks better. The N64 version, though, is the only one that could manage a 4-player splitscreen mode... (though the DC version released before the N64 one, so maybe it was too rushed to program it in or something)

As for fighting games, most N64 fighting games were pretty low-budget affairs... maybe you could compare the two versions of Mortal Kombat 4/Gold, though. The DC one looks better, certainly, but it looks decent on N64 too. Beat 'em ups are even worse on the N64; Zombie Revenge isn't amazing looking, but it certainly has no problem outdoing the weak efforts the N64 had in that genre. I mean, the only beat 'em ups on the N64 are Fighting Force 64 and Batman Beyond...


The Nintendo 64 still has lots of impressive 3D for the 32-bit generation... as do the Saturn and Playstation, -but the more visually impressive DC games (squeezed out within the DC's tiny lifespan) look like PS2/GC/Xbox games and don't look like N64 games any more than PS2/GC/Xbox games do.
Much like with the Turbografx, Jaguar, and 3DO before it, the Dreamcasts' early release date left it struggling graphically once the other, better-looking consoles released. All of those four systems I just listed are often accused of having games that sometimes look "last-gen". Yes, they're all "next-gen" machines, but they are well behind the other systems of the generation, and it's pretty easy to tell that when you look at the games. Lots of TG16 games look like enhanced NES titles, lots of Jaguar games look like SNES games, and lots of Dreamcast games look like enhanced PS1/N64 stuff. So yeah, I somewhat disagree with you on this point. The DC is certainly next generation, and some games show off that fact, but many do not. This is a problem that doesn't exist on the Gamecube or Xbox, that's for sure. The PS2 does have that issue, but by the middle of its life it had mostly left it behind.

(Note: I love both the TG-16 and Dreamcast anyway. Great consoles.)

SEGA.GENESIS1989
03-21-2013, 12:56 AM
I see your seen saying and your response and see you again, er, yeah. Based on Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft's public image the trick seems to be how well they can orchestrate themselves as creative geniuses while hiding all of their huge screw ups with lots of money. Sega seemed to be of the PR mindset that if they made quality product consumers would come, except for the Genesis days they never seemed all that keen on fabricated self promotion and I always respected that. Even if others don't see Sega that way, I think it is a touch hyperbolic to say that Sega's public image was or is entirely their responsibility.

I mean really, Sony seems to be floundering in public image finally and rightly so but there are still droves of people who willfully expect them to pull something creative out of their ass when that has never really happened before. Nintendo can say "yeah we suck, but look! New Zelda/Mario!" and everybody is happy. And Microsoft, yeah.

Sheath, in your opening paragraph you've interpreted old man's position quite well. It's actually my position as well: In my mind's eye, SEGA's PR campaign was quite feeble compared to that of SONY or Nintendo for that matter. As soon as SONY released the PS2, you could sense that this was not going to bode well for SEGA once again. I think most gamers were incensed that SEGA had not delivered not once, not twice but three times! SONY was in a position of dominance. It succeeded with the PS1 and it's PR machine working overtime and winning minds that the PS2 was something better! It did not matter that the SEGA Dreamcast was a capable console. The many missteps made people's perception of the company a reality. The same could be said about SONY's new console: Like it or not perception was reality.

gamevet
03-21-2013, 01:04 AM
I see your seen saying and your response and see you again, er, yeah. Based on Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft's public image the trick seems to be how well they can orchestrate themselves as creative geniuses while hiding all of their huge screw ups with lots of money.

Sega's screwups costed them hundreds of millions of dollars:

-They'd spent over $10 million just to set up a studio for FMV games on the Sega CD.

-Their huge Sega Screams campaign made the company cool in the public's eye, but it really dug into the profits they were making on the Genesis in the US.

-They'd wasted resources creating the 32X and software for the dead-end add-on.

- Spent huge amounts of cash to fund Shenmue for the Saturn/Dreamcast, only to see very little return on the investment.

- They wasted the momentum they had gained in the marketplace, by trying to stretch out the shelf life of the Genesis with confusing add-ons that most of the gaming public didn't understand. They should have been planning their next console for a 1993 release instead.





Sega seemed to be of the PR mindset that if they made quality product consumers would come, except for the Genesis days they never seemed all that keen on fabricated self promotion and I always respected that. Even if others don't see Sega that way, I think it is a touch hyperbolic to say that Sega's public image was or is entirely their responsibility.

Blast processing wasn't self promotion?

Sega lost the public's attention, when they created confusing products like the 32X and Sega CD. I enjoyed playing games on the Sega CD, but the casual consumer market didn't have a clue about what it was. And it really didn't help to expand the userbase of the Genesis by much. I also believe that those products helped taint Sega's image for 3rd party publishers, when they dropped support for those products and continued that same cycle with the total mismanagement of the Saturn outside of Japan. That taint continued on with the Dreamcast, with publishers like Konami jumping ship as soon as the PS2 was nearing launch.






I mean really, Sony seems to be floundering in public image finally and rightly so but there are still droves of people who willfully expect them to pull something creative out of their ass when that has never really happened before. Nintendo can say "yeah we suck, but look! New Zelda/Mario!" and everybody is happy. And Microsoft, yeah.

How has Sony not been creative? Sony did everything right as a 1st/2nd party software developer/publisher for the original Playstation, with standout titles like Parappa the Rappa, Warhawk, Gran Turismo, Wipeout, NFL Gameday, Colony Wars, Jumping Flash and Final Fantasy VII. They created partnerships with key 3rd party publishers like Namco, Konami and Eidos. Sega could have created simular relationships with 3rd party publishers, but they had burned too many bridges along the way. Sony and MS understood where the market needed to go, while Sega rested on its laurels and let the competition take it over. Atari suffered a simular fate through bad management, with poor hardware decisions and software execution.

Nintendo stuck with the family friendly console model and it's worked for them. Who knows how long they'll last with that?


How many times has this discussion been had on these forums? :daze:

A Black Falcon
03-21-2013, 03:14 AM
Sega's screwups costed them hundreds of millions of dollars:

-They'd spent over $10 million just to set up a studio for FMV games on the Sega CD.

-Their huge Sega Screams campaign made the company cool in the public's eye, but it really dug into the profits they were making on the Genesis in the US.

-They'd wasted resources creating the 32X and software for the dead-end add-on.

- Spent huge amounts of cash to fund Shenmue for the Saturn/Dreamcast, only to see very little return on the investment.

- They wasted the momentum they had gained in the marketplace, by trying to stretch out the shelf life of the Genesis with confusing add-ons that most of the gaming public didn't understand. They should have been planning their next console for a 1993 release instead.
I was agreeing with you until this last point... what, 1993? Why in the world would that have been a good idea? I mean, the complete failures of every system released in 1993 -- that is, the Fujitsu FM Towns Marty, the Amiga CD32, the Jaguar, and the 3DO -- proves, I would say, that the mass market wasn't interested in a new system in 1993, or 1994 for that matter. It wasn't until 1995 that Japan really got interested in the next generation, and really 1996 for the US. Europe I don't know, maybe even later? No, I still think that Sega's problem was that they thought another addon or early launch were needed, when they weren't. Sega would have been better off sticking with just the Genesis and Sega CD until maybe late 1995-mid 1996 for a new console launch. Maybe late 1995 for Japan, mid '96 for the US. That'd be fine. And of course, it should have been something better (easier to program for and more powerful) than the Saturn is. Sony only stayed ahead all generation (above Nintendo in the US, I mean) because the N64 slowed down after its first Christmas... PS1 sales that first year-plus were slow, it's just that Saturn sales were even slower. Sega would have been just fine with a 1996 release in the US, and by abandoning the wrong idea of a second addon, they'd lose fewer fans, too. I know that by 1995 the Genesis was dated, and Sega probably blamed that for why games like Comix Zone didn't sell as well as they'd hoped, but I think that part of the problem that year was that Sega was confusing everyone with too much hardware, not just that the Genesis was old.


As for the Dreamcast, really, as I said, everything above aside, the #1 biggest thing Sega could have done is get a DVD player in the thing. Seriously, the DC as a DVD player would have been huge in 1998-2000! So many people, in both Japan and the West, bought PS2s to play DVDs... I know that a DC DVD player would have had to pay Sony for DVD license rights, but it'd have been worth it in how many more systems they'd have sold, I think. And that's even with everything before that going just as badly as it did. I know Sega couldn't afford the DVD drive, but if they'd found a way to make it work, the DC may have had a slightly larger shred of a chance of not dying. It'd probably have still been the end for Sega, but that would have been a big deal in marketing and PR, and in early sales too. That PS2 hype was unstoppable, but taking away that "it plays DVDs and nothing else now does!" would have been significant.


Blast processing wasn't self promotion?

1 Sega lost the public's attention, when they created confusing products like the 32X and Sega CD. I enjoyed playing games on the Sega CD, but the casual consumer market didn't have a clue about what it was. And it really didn't help to expand the userbase of the Genesis by much. I also believe that those products helped taint Sega's image for 3rd party publishers, when they dropped support for those products and continued that same cycle with the total mismanagement of the Saturn outside of Japan. That taint continued on with the Dreamcast, with publishers like Konami jumping ship as soon as the PS2 was nearing launch.
If there'd been no 32X, I think that the Sega CD would see less criticism... I mean, part of the problem with it was that they abandoned it a bit too early, but without the 32X and early Saturn launch distractions, that wouldn't have happened. Also, remember that FMV games were genuinely popular in 1992-1995. A lot of the "SCD was all FMV games so it's bad" stuff is quite thoroughly revisionist history, compared to what people wanted to buy during the systems' life. I know the SCD could have done better, but it could have done worse too... I mean, in the US, the Sega CD and Saturn sold similar numbers!


How has Sony not been creative? Sony did everything right as a 1st/2nd party software developer/publisher for the original Playstation, with standout titles like Parappa the Rappa, Warhawk, Gran Turismo, Wipeout, NFL Gameday, Colony Wars, Jumping Flash and Final Fantasy VII. They created partnerships with key 3rd party publishers like Namco, Konami and Eidos. Sega could have created simular relationships with 3rd party publishers, but they had burned too many bridges along the way. Sony and MS understood where the market needed to go, while Sega rested on its laurels and let the competition take it over. Atari suffered a simular fate through bad management, with poor hardware decisions and software execution.

Nintendo stuck with the family friendly console model and it's worked for them. Who knows how long they'll last with that?
Yeah, agreed here. Sega did have those partnerships, and those games, in the Genesis era, but they really messed up by letting them go. Maybe there was nothing they could do, and Sony was just in better shape than Sega to capitalize on the changing market, but regardless, you're right.


How many times has this discussion been had on these forums? :daze:
And you can be quite sure that this'll be far from the last time, too... :) (It gets old after a while every time, but still, it's fun stuff to revisit once in a while.))

promking
03-21-2013, 09:24 AM
TLDR

I like the Dreamcast

This now has become the Dreamcast debate.

sheath
03-21-2013, 10:20 AM
Sega's screwups costed them hundreds of millions of dollars:

-They'd spent over $10 million just to set up a studio for FMV games on the Sega CD.

-Their huge Sega Screams campaign made the company cool in the public's eye, but it really dug into the profits they were making on the Genesis in the US.

-They'd wasted resources creating the 32X and software for the dead-end add-on.

- Spent huge amounts of cash to fund Shenmue for the Saturn/Dreamcast, only to see very little return on the investment.

- They wasted the momentum they had gained in the marketplace, by trying to stretch out the shelf life of the Genesis with confusing add-ons that most of the gaming public didn't understand. They should have been planning their next console for a 1993 release instead.

The Multimedia studio was crucial for developing CD-ROM games with any kind of multimedia, including cutscenes, CD quality music, voice acting, the works. Sega did not make that studio to make more FMV games. In fact, without Sega's early efforts with multimedia on the Sega CD it is doubtful how far along the industry would have been when the Saturn and PS1 made FMV cutscenes more normal and expected. Even Sony leaned heavily on Sega at the time of the Sega CD.

Overmarketing the Genesis was the only way to break Nintendo's illegal monopoly and stronghold on retailers. The choice there was to get by with 20% of the market at best, more likely less than 10%, or pay now and profit later. Unfortunately they didn't get the last part down. Sony's entrance into the market, and subsequent massive spending, and buying or paying off retailers, made the industry just as virulent and risky for other platform holders as Nintendo's monopolistic tactics had a decade earlier. Sega didn't exactly squander their momentum, Sony took it. The only question is how much might Sega have held on for if they made absolutely no mistakes and found an alternative revenue stream other than Arcades at the same time.

Shenmue should have been syndicated and at leased lent to other internal studios (see Yakuza) to make up the profits, not dropped. I agree there. The 32X was the only thing to shoot up Sega's revenue in 1994 at the crucial timing of the Saturn's Japanese Launch and early software development, which was much more costly than any 32X game possibly could have been to develop. Developing 32X versions of appropriate Saturn games shouldn't have cost any more than companies making ports of any game for multiple platforms and handhelds, for profits I might add.



Blast processing wasn't self promotion?


Did I neglect to exclude the Genesis marketing in that statement? Really though, Blast Processing was the kind of Marketing people are claiming Sega should have used more of, the kind that made their product look better.



How has Sony not been creative? Sony did everything right as a 1st/2nd party software developer/publisher for the original Playstation, with standout titles like Parappa the Rappa, Warhawk, Gran Turismo, Wipeout, NFL Gameday, Colony Wars, Jumping Flash and Final Fantasy VII. They created partnerships with key 3rd party publishers like Namco, Konami and Eidos. Sega could have created simular relationships with 3rd party publishers, but they had burned too many bridges along the way. Sony and MS understood where the market needed to go, while Sega rested on its laurels and let the competition take it over. Atari suffered a simular fate through bad management, with poor hardware decisions and software execution.

Nintendo stuck with the family friendly console model and it's worked for them. Who knows how long they'll last with that?
How many times has this discussion been had on these forums? :daze:

Sega created games, and lots of them, too many to count really, and many of them were innovative or at least evolutionary. Sony created business partnerships to secure its market dominance, bought or payed off developers with better software, put smaller firms that wouldn't play their way out of the business, and offered what in exchange? At least Microsoft made online play easy and created Live Arcade to bring back the classics, Sony dragged their heals on that for the entire time they dominated the market. Sorry, I don't see anti-competitive business tactics as "creative" in the same sense that companies like Sega were.

Barone
03-21-2013, 10:53 AM
The Multimedia studio was crucial for developing CD-ROM games with any kind of multimedia, including cutscenes, CD quality music, voice acting, the works. Sega did not make that studio to make more FMV games. In fact, without Sega's early efforts with multimedia on the Sega CD it is doubtful how far along the industry would have been when the Saturn and PS1 made FMV cutscenes more normal and expected. Even Sony leaned heavily on Sega at the time of the Sega CD.
Uh???
Which games are you talking about?
Seriously, the relevance of that studio to the gaming history is next to zero, not zero 'cause it caused some damage to Sega's finances but nothing really special about any games that I can remember and much less any positive influence in terms of game design or development process; quite the opposite.

Cutscenes:
Cutscenes were already common in the PC Engine CD games well before the existence of the Mega CD; and way before than the Sega CD, those dumb SOA-financed studios... And the games with the best cutscenes were all made in Japan, by very small but talented developer teams. No need for any dumb ill-fated studio for good cutscenes, no. Also, Japanese computers using CD media, like the FM Towns, were released much earlier than the Sega CD; so it's not like the Sega CD created anything in terms of multimedia games.

FMV:
Many FMV "games" had been already made in late '80s, heck, aren't some of the Sega CD US FMV games recorded well before the Sega CD's release?
Again, see Japanese computers.

Voice Acting:
Seriously, do you think that, for an example, Popful Mail's US voice acting is any good? Or look at Final Fight CD's intro and compare it with its JP version, the difference is huge.

The Sega's multimedia studio was just a bad joke... What's their most pronounced work? Maybe Jurassic Park on the Sega CD? That game with horrible colors and mediocre gameplay; a point-and-click game which actually doesn't even support the Sega's official mouse? That's pretty bad IMO.

Also, it's totally exaggerated the comment about Sony/Sega in such aspect IMO (unless you're saying they used Sega as the worst example possible of CD multimedia usage). Take the PS1 early "multimedia" releases, they are all JP FMV adventure games and anime-based stuff which are much more related to Japanese computers or the PCE CD libraries than any Sega CD western game.



Sega created games, and lots of them, too many to count really, and many of them were innovative or at least evolutionary. Sony created business partnerships to secure its market dominance, bought or payed off developers with better software, put smaller firms that wouldn't play their way out of the business, and offered what in exchange? At least Microsoft made online play easy and created Live Arcade to bring back the classics, Sony dragged their heals on that for the entire time they dominated the market. Sorry, I don't see anti-competitive business tactics as "creative" in the same sense that companies like Sega were.
Then again, you're demonizing Sony 'cause they were more competent in making money and increase their brand's value in a game where the main objective is to make money and increase the brand's value...

I know how much you hate Sony but, taking the Sega goggles off, PS1 had the best library (more rounded and better localized) and longer support of its generation, as was for PS2. Sony's gamers recognition didn't came from some sort of satanic trick or just aggressive marketing...
OTOH, we had Sega, promising everything with the Sega CD and delivering almost no first party support for a fucking expensive machine; promising everything again and denying it, again, 6 months after mostly half-assed 16-bit ports to the then super powerful 32-bit add-on called 32X. Then they thrown the Saturn at your face, as a "surprise"... Seriously, can't you see anything aside from bad Sony marketing practices to justify why they went so successful and why Sega failed so badly since 1994?

sheath
03-21-2013, 11:45 AM
Uh???
Which games are you talking about?
Seriously, the relevance of that studio to the gaming history is next to zero, not zero 'cause it caused some damage to Sega's finances but nothing really special about any games that I can remember and much less any positive influence in terms of game design or development process; quite the opposite.

A lot of it is in the Tom Kalinske, Marty Franz and Scot Bayless interviews on this site, but the gist is what I already said. Without studios like Sega's North American multimedia studio, or Konami's in Japan, the industry would have had to create these when CD-ROM took over after 1994. SoA's efforts absolutely influenced the rest of the industry in this respect.



Cutscenes:
Cutscenes were already common in the PC Engine CD games well before the existence of the Mega CD; and way before than the Sega CD, those dumb SOA-financed studios... And the games with the best cutscenes were all made in Japan, by very small but talented developer teams. No need for any dumb ill-fated studio for good cutscenes, no. Also, Japanese computers using CD media, like the FM Towns, were released much earlier than the Sega CD; so it's not like the Sega CD created anything in terms of multimedia games.

Right, I'm not saying that Sega was alone, but they were heavily involved in the development of multimedia in the industry, and the popularization of it.



FMV:
Many FMV "games" had been already made in late '80s, heck, aren't some of the Sega CD US FMV games recorded well before the Sega CD's release?
Again, see Japanese computers.

Exactly, which is why I thought the comment that Sega created this studio just to make more FMV games was silly.



Voice Acting:
Seriously, do you think that, for an example, Popful Mail's US voice acting is any good? Or look at Final Fight CD's intro and compare it with its JP version, the difference is huge.

A state of the art multimedia studio doesn't guarantee quality voice actors get paid for.



The Sega's multimedia studio was just a bad joke... What's their most pronounced work? Maybe Jurassic Park on the Sega CD? That game with horrible colors and mediocre gameplay; a point-and-click game which actually doesn't even support the Sega's official mouse? That's pretty bad IMO.

Also, it's totally exaggerated the comment about Sony/Sega in such aspect IMO (unless you're saying they used Sega as the worst example possible of CD multimedia usage). Take the PS1 early "multimedia" releases, they are all JP FMV adventure games and anime-based stuff which are much more related to Japanese computers or the PCE CD libraries than any Sega CD western game.

Warhawk's live acting scenes seem awfully similar in quality to Sega CD FMV games, minus the video quality. Jurassic Park on Sega CD was one of the efforts that came out of the Multimedia studio, yes. That is, the ability to digitize that much video in particular, the quality of the game is another matter (and a matter of opinion, I love it for what it is). Considering the interactive games on the 3DO I can't see how Jurassic Park is demonstrably bad.



Then again, you're demonizing Sony 'cause they were more competent in making money and increase their brand's value in a game where the main objective is to make money and increase the brand's value...

I know how much you hate Sony but, taking the Sega goggles off, PS1 had the best library (more rounded and better localized) and longer support of its generation, as was for PS2. Sony's gamers recognition didn't came from some sort of satanic trick or just aggressive marketing...
OTOH, we had Sega, promising everything with the Sega CD and delivering almost no first party support for a fucking expensive machine; promising everything again and denying it, again, 6 months after mostly half-assed 16-bit ports to the then super powerful 32-bit add-on called 32X. Then they thrown the Saturn at your face, as a "surprise"... Seriously, can't you see anything aside from bad Sony marketing practices to justify why they went so successful and why Sega failed so badly since 1994?

The early Sega CD games make my point, studios asked Sega what to make, but nothing was ready at the time for full blown CD-ROM development so Sega told them to make 8mbit Genesis games and plan on adding CDA and cutscenes later. That's how early the Sega CD was for the industry. The same thing happened with the PCE CD, it wasn't just the system cards that limited what they could do, the development and studios tools were being made for the system in Japan after the system's release.

The PS1 eventually had the better library for the same reason the NES has a bigger more diverse library than the Master System. Market dominance and a longer cycle tends to do that, I see no reason to credit Sony for those games. As for demonizing Sony, Sony IS an anti-competitive mega-corporation, that is what they do. If their focus was on creativity and innovation rather than cornering the market and forcing out competition through over spending things might be different. The only question I see here is whether you all love companies that bring a gun to a fist fight more than companies that demonstrated actual talent in game development.

I might need to elaborate on that last line. All I see Sony brought to the table is escalation. Their money and spending made it impossible for other companies to be profitable with less. It is like two fighters and you want to see who's better, but the other one brings a gun and doesn't fight hand to hand. You can't see if he's a better fighter because he escalated immediately to kill or be killed.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2013, 12:21 PM
Does anyone else get the image of the Nintendo 64 Kid running around smacking people with N64's while screaming "NINTENDO 64!" whenever A Black Falcon posts in these threads?

Armoured Priest
03-21-2013, 01:23 PM
GDROMs weren't much smaller than Gamecube Disks, it wouldn't have been a big deal for the entire generation I'd say. Also, here is an old list of canceled Dreamcast games (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/Dreamcastcanceled.htm) for your viewing displeasure:

*Snip*




I'd like to add that Lionhead studio's "Fable" started life as a Dreamcast game (was announced at the same E3 that Baldur's Gate was, I think it was 2000 E3).

Black_Tiger
03-21-2013, 01:38 PM
I don't think that Sony did anything too bad with its handling of the PS2, certainly nothing nearly as bad as Nintendo's handling of the NES thru N64. The worst thing I can remember is the same bs that they pulled with the PS3: claiming that their unreleased console was at least a full generational leap beyond the competition. The press did all the hyping for Sony.

Sega handled the Dreamcast perfectly and it was a huge success at first. But the dvd format was the deciding factor for two major reasons. Dvd was on the brinking of becoming mainstream. The PS2 arrived at the perfect time and the release of the Matrix was an industry shifting killer app, while the PS2 was the killer app of dvd features. Every time I'd enter an electronics store, people would talk about waiting for the PS2 so that they could "watch dvds". It was a no brainer for parents considering the purchase of a new console for their kids, as they would also he buying themselves the exciting new cutting edge entertainment technology. The benefits of dvd over vhs were huge compared to the jump from dvd to bluray.

If the Dreamcast had launched with a dvd drive and no modem, things would have played out radically different. Online gaming was innovative , but the masses don't care about that crap. The Playstation 2 name alone promised more of the same, only better. Pretty much exactly as Ali G pitched it. Dreamcast was something unique and new and not as safe sounding. If the 32-bit Sega console had been a success and titled simply "Genesis 2" or "Mega Genesis" or something, then the "Genesis 3" would have carried a lit of weight. Same deal as the "Super NES".

But the second reason that the dvd format made the PS2 and not having it broke the DC, was piracy. DC games were able to be copied to cdr and played on the DC way too easily and way too soon. I saw bootleg DC games everywhere for <$5 within weeks of the DC launch. It took longer for bootleg PS2 games to catch on and they were still harder and more expensive to produce and play on the PS2.

A dvd drive would have made the DC mainstream, while evening the playing field with the PS2 and keeping piracy from being any worse than it was for the competetion. Otherwise Sega did a great job, but was doomed no matter what.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2013, 01:59 PM
Was Piracy really that rampant on the Dreamcast? Most people I knew in 1999 didn't have burner drives as they were still pretty expensive at that point. It seems more like Piracy became more popular after the Dreamcast was already dead for a few years as a positive reason to still own the console.

sheath
03-21-2013, 02:01 PM
I'd like to add that Lionhead studio's "Fable" started life as a Dreamcast game (was announced at the same E3 that Baldur's Gate was, I think it was 2000 E3).

That wouldn't surprise me. It seems as though almost all of Sega of America went with Peter Moore to the Xbox.


I don't think that Sony did anything too bad with its handling of the PS2, certainly nothing nearly as bad as Nintendo's handling of the NES thru N64. The worst thing I can remember is the same bs that they pulled with the PS3: claiming that their unreleased console was at least a full generational leap beyond the competition. The press did all the hyping for Sony.


The PS2 was the worst hyped console of all time in my opinion. I have never seen a product promoted with such out and out lies before and everybody apparently buying into it at the same time (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/PS2success.htm), except maybe the N64. I can honestly see the PS1 as a game console, and probably the strongest game library of the 5th generation if imports are included. The PS2 I can't see as anything more than an electronic's giant's set top box and an over hyped under delivered one at that.

As for DVD, for whatever reason only Sony found the financial risk of including it in the stock system worthwhile that generation. Including it in the Dreamcast in 1998 would have killed the unit even faster due to the high cost (or greater losses per console).

Tripredacus
03-21-2013, 02:05 PM
Was Piracy really that rampant on the Dreamcast? Most people I knew in 1999 didn't have burner drives as they were still pretty expensive at that point. It seems more like Piracy became more popular after the Dreamcast was already dead for a few years as a positive reason to still own the console.

Everyone I knew that had a Dreamcast also had tons of burned discs and very few retail titles. But these were mostly adults by then, all who were into computers and had CD burners. I do not recall knowing any kids that had a Dreamcast, but I suspect they did not use burned discs.

gamevet
03-21-2013, 02:11 PM
Was Piracy really that rampant on the Dreamcast? Most people I knew in 1999 didn't have burner drives as they were still pretty expensive at that point. It seems more like Piracy became more popular after the Dreamcast was already dead for a few years as a positive reason to still own the console.

I didn't have a CD burner until @2002. I was using my Saturn and Dreamcast to browse the web, until I finally gotta PC @ 2002. I didn't have broadband until 2003 and I'm pretty sure a minority of people were still using dial-up in 2002.

Barone
03-21-2013, 02:17 PM
A lot of it is in the Tom Kalinske, Marty Franz and Scot Bayless interviews on this site, but the gist is what I already said.
Interviews let them talk as they will and lie as much as they want. A lot of bullshit there, just like any Trip's interview about the 3DO or any Atari CEO talking any time. They always act like they have changed the world and invented a lot of stuff but, sadly, if you come to the games released outside US, you'll see that they didn't made much of difference.



Without studios like Sega's North American multimedia studio, or Konami's in Japan, the industry would have had to create these when CD-ROM took over after 1994. SoA's efforts absolutely influenced the rest of the industry in this respect.
That's just a bad excuse to throw money out of the window.
SOA had ZERO experience, even in publishing, with CD games when they went for a gigantic studio. That does make any sense to you? Business-wise I can assure you that's a very risky and fail-prone attitude/investment.




Right, I'm not saying that Sega was alone, but they were heavily involved in the development of multimedia in the industry, and the popularization of it.
Yeah, I'm just telling you that SOA made the same contribution of a huge amount of dog shit to the development of multimedia in the industry.




Exactly, which is why I thought the comment that Sega created this studio just to make more FMV games was silly.
Which reduces even more its scope and relevance since the Sega CD's US library has many FMV games. And they are mostly bad, have helped to hurt the console's image while the Multimedia Studio was there, making piles of crap.



A state of the art multimedia studio doesn't guarantee quality voice actors get paid for.
What makes you believe that SOA's Multimedia Studio was a state of art one? Really, it's was just a POS.



Warhawk's live acting scenes seem awfully similar in quality to Sega CD FMV games, minus the video quality.
So any live acting scenes are inherited from the Sega CD games? C'mon!
That game is like a Shockwave rip-off. IIRC Shockwave has nothing to do with Sega.



Jurassic Park on Sega CD was one of the efforts that came out of the Multimedia studio, yes.
That and Willy Wood; "awesome".


That is, the ability to digitize that much video in particular, the quality of the game is another matter (and a matter of opinion, I love it for what it is). Considering the interactive games on the 3DO I can't see how Jurassic Park is demonstrably bad.
Considering the interactive games on the 3DO created with a extremely reduced budget by unknown tiny studios that are just as "good" as Sega's Multimedia Studio best effort, we can see that such studio was just a huge waste of time and money.




The early Sega CD games make my point, studios asked Sega what to make, but nothing was ready at the time for full blown CD-ROM development so Sega told them to make 8mbit Genesis games and plan on adding CDA and cutscenes later.
That's bullshit. Believe it or not, companies supporting the PCE CD in Japan were able to create games making good use of the CD right in the early '90s, so:
A) What you said is just bullshit that SOA used all the time to excuse their own incompetence and bad choices in terms of games line-up.
B) Companies supporting the Sega CD were a POS when compared to the ones supporting the PCE CD.
C) Sega CD was released without the proper development tools. In such case, is it my fault? Sony's fault? or Sega fault?
D) A mixture of the previous items.




That's how early the Sega CD was for the industry. The same thing happened with the PCE CD, it wasn't just the system cards that limited what they could do, the development and studios tools were being made for the system in Japan after the system's release.
Please, don't dig your own grave. Take all games released for the PCE CD during the first two years of its release in Japan and then compare those games to the ones released in the first two years of Mega CD's life.
I'll be eating popcorn while you list them.





The PS1 eventually had the better library for the same reason the NES has a bigger more diverse library than the Master System.
That's a blatant lie and smashed view you keep spreading as if it had any truth in its own, but it doesn't.

Backing a bit, to your defense of SOA's investment in that POS studio, let's see what Sony did. Instead of creating any gigantic monster with no experience, they bought Psygnosis and also used the Sony Imagesoft label to gain experience with the multimedia stuff prior to anything.
Psygnosis had a MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH bigger experience with CD games than SOA ever dreamed of. OTOH, Sony Imagesoft make a partnership with Sega, I wonder, to learn more about games publishing and distribution in large scale.
Psygnosis had, in 1993/1994, already experienced all sorts of CG creation tools, 3D audio studio equipments and was able to publish in several platforms, including: Mega Drive, Mega CD, FM Towns, Amiga... A lot of great games were developed or published by Psygnosis, with their publishing work many times including all the audio treatment of the games.

While Sony was doing that, Sega was wasting money with the dumb Multimedia Studio which never produced anything great and only generated 2 mediocre games for the Sega CD. What a great show up of Sega's superior creativity, eh?

Now, on your NES comparison, that's pretty much off. You say like if the Saturn was a better platform and the PS1 just outdone it when it was already dead. Well, it passes far away from the truth.
From day 1, in comparison to the Saturn, the PS1 had:
- Better and easier to use SDK.
- Stronger 3rd party support, especially in Europe.
- A hardware design which made PC-to-console ports a lot easier.
- Much better 2nd party support.
- Far better marketing campaign.
- Launch and early 3D games running at better framerate.
- Bigger and better publishers.

We can go further into this discussion, but it's way off topic already.



All I see Sony brought to the table is escalation. Their money and spending made it impossible for other companies to be profitable with less. It is like two fighters and you want to see who's better, but the other one brings a gun and doesn't fight hand to hand. You can't see if he's a better fighter because he escalated immediately to kill or be killed.
That's all you chose to see.



Does anyone else get the image of the Nintendo 64 Kid running around smacking people with N64's while screaming "NINTENDO 64!" whenever A Black Falcon posts in these threads?
I do. He criticizes the DC's Racing library, which is usually praised by any serious gamer, but loves the N64 offering, like Rush and Cruis'n games which are pretty mediocre efforts. Go figure.
To not talk about his mind boggling graphics comments; too bad that in reality the N64 badly designed hardware couldn't even surpass much older hardware in terms of best looking games...

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2013, 02:17 PM
I didn't have a CD burner until @2002. I was using my Saturn and Dreamcast to browse the web, until I finally gotta PC @ 2002. I didn't have broadband until 2003 and I'm pretty sure a minority of people were still using dial-up in 2002.

Actually I remember reading back around 2005ish that still over 60% of US Internet Users were using Dial-Up. I know I didn't get Broadband until around 2004.

Moirai
03-21-2013, 02:22 PM
My parents had broadband in my house in 1998.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2013, 02:26 PM
My parents had broadband in my house in 1998.

In 1998, just about everyone I knew was on Dial-Up. If someone was on broadband they were either A) Rich, or B) Required it for work.

gamevet
03-21-2013, 02:31 PM
Actually I remember reading back around 2005ish that still over 60% of US Internet Users were using Dial-Up. I know I didn't get Broadband until around 2004.


I meant to say majority. Stupid iPhone auto corrects my words.


Yeah, I was adding network drops in homes around 2003-2005, to bring broadband connections near their computers.

Vector2013
03-21-2013, 02:47 PM
DC still has games coming out (old discoveries or new sd games or ports of Pier Solar) and a very small, but dedicated homebrew base still. GunLord. Tahi. Others. Ask 8/10 people who owned and played a DC, they still have one and like it. DC was and is the first open source console for over a decade.

Now who still watches dvds on their ps2s or still likes playing ps2 ?

What is funny is, watch Godzilla 2000 they had dvd camcorders. Japan had dvds on market first it seemed maybe as a test run but it never seemed to catch on until other countries drooled over it as it was knew to them. Asia vcd market was good enough, but it seemed once we drooled over dvds so did Japan (even though they had it for a year). Although ps2 made it more affordable I guess. Japan even had a ps2 dvd recorder well before dvd recorders were here.

Maybe Sony got the blu ray trademarks (so they can profit off movies and have exclusive game on format rights), but the dvd trademark was shared by many companies along with Sony. The DC just came out 2 years before the dvd and ps2 drooling. Nothing would have helped Sega. We all know they made certain bad decisions and Sony was unstoppable then, the end.

Like I said I can put a 1080 avi and convert it on a vcd and it'll look like a dvd (a regular vcd looks like vhs) on DC, too bad I couldn't do that back when the ps2 shadow before it's launch was the size of Godzilla ha. But the dvd and blu ray fads are over, put them in the dvdhd or gdrom graveyard basically yet people still love and play DC.

Ironically piracy helped the DC in the long run. People at Sega even gave hackers the instructions to pirate games and create apps. I sent some info and screenshots to this and other places, post # 4 :

http://www.cracked.com/article_19745_the-5-ballsiest-easter-eggs-hidden-in-video-games.html

A Black Falcon
03-21-2013, 03:36 PM
I do. He criticizes the DC's Racing library, which is usually praised by any serious gamer, but loves the N64 offering, like Rush and Cruis'n games which are pretty mediocre efforts. Go figure.
Way to deceptively describe what I said. I mean, because I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said that Sega's first-party racing game lineup on the Dreamcast is disappointing. First party lineup only, not the pretty good third-party DC racing game library.

Here's a comparison of the first/second party published racing game lineups on the N64, DC, and GC. They're put in order of release, first to last. (note: games originally published by some other company and then released later on in another region by Nintendo or Sega don't count here)

N64: Wave Race 64, Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, F-Zero X, 1080 Snowboarding, Excitebike 64, Mickey's Racing USA.

DC: Sega Rally 2, CART Flag to Flag, Sega GT, F355 Challenge, 18 Wheeler: American Pro Trucker, Daytona USA (2001). Hang-On and Outrun are also both playable in Shenmue, and both of those plus Power Drift are in Yu Suzuki Game Works Vol. 1.

GC: Wave Race: Blue Storm, Kirby Air Ride, F-Zero GX, Mario Kart: Double Dash, 1080 Avalanche

That DC list does get a bit longer if you add CRI's two games in (they were a third party, but were sort of Sega-exclusive, yes?), Buggy Heat (aka TNN Motorsports Hardcore Heat in the US) and Surf Rocket Racers (Power Jet Racing 2001 in Japan). And finally, if you count Crazy Taxi, naturally that helps things a lot... but that's not a traditional racing game, of course. Overall though, of those three lists, the N64 one is the one with the most consistently high quality -- those DC and GC lists both have some not-as-great games, but all of those N64 games are very good. As for DC vs. GC though, that's tougher... I'm not sure.

I will say though, my two favorite Sega racing games of that generation are Outrun 2006 and F-Zero X.


too bad that in reality the N64 badly designed hardware couldn't even surpass much older hardware in terms of best looking games...
That's simply false on any objective level.


Was Piracy really that rampant on the Dreamcast? Most people I knew in 1999 didn't have burner drives as they were still pretty expensive at that point. It seems more like Piracy became more popular after the Dreamcast was already dead for a few years as a positive reason to still own the console.
Yeah, I agree, I think the piracy issue is massively overstated by people who want to blame the DC's failure on that. No way, that had absolutely nothing to do with it. I mean, the PS1 has easier piracy than just about any other system around, and I think it did okay. The piracy on DC existed, but not everyone had an internet connection fast enough to download games on (so many people were on dialup!) and even fewer had CD burners (for instance I had broadband and a DVD drive in my computer from 2001 on, but didn't have a CD/DVD burner until 2006...). Sure the piracy was easy, but in 1999-2001, how many people actually could take advantage of it? Not as many as the "piracy killed the DC!" people say, that's for sure.

And remember, that PS1 did well, piracy or no.

sheath
03-21-2013, 03:55 PM
The piracy thing needs to be placed in its proper context of Sega pouring it's last few hundred million dollars into the Dreamcast's marketing in the US. At least according to Pettus and a couple of other sources Sega was basically out of cash and dependent on the Dreamcast for revenue to keep the same on the market. They didn't have any other reserves or alternate markets to lean on.

No matter what the reality is that piracy for the Dreamcast had a very real hand in its discontinuation. There just wasn't any wiggle room for Sega to be losing revenue from software sales and any amount of lost revenue to piracy was too much (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/piracykills.htm).

For example:
Individual pirate sites were boasting 1 million downloads a day in 2000. Let's say that 1% of that would have otherwise bought the game legitimately.

"1% of 1 million is 10,000 games a day.
100 out of 150 non-Sega games is 66.67%, were 3rd party games downloaded
50 out of 150 sega 1st party games is 33.34%, were 1st party games downloaded

6667 downloads at $8.40 per title = $56002.8 lost revenue per day
3334 downloads at $42.00 per title = $140028 lost revenue per day
Non-Sega($56002.8) games + Sega ($140028) games added together is $196,030.80 lost revenue per day. That amount adding up over 30 days is $5,880,924 of lost revenue. Adding up over a year, or 365 days is $71,551,242 of lost revenue. Try to budget your expenses with only 500 million dollars left to your name, when people are stealing that much from you unpredictably.

These numbers are created assuming that only 1% of the 1 million hits per day on one pirate site all downloaded a game, and all would have bought the game otherwise. This only includes the 1 million hits per day pirate sites boasted, and does not include usenet downloads, bootleg sales, or any other source or multiple pirate sites getting 1 million hits per day. A more realistic estimate in my opinion is that 10% of those hits both downloaded and would have otherwise bought those games. This would make the numbers:
$1,960,308 per day, $58,809,240 per month, and
$715,512,420 per year."
Even if you make it .01% of those 1 million hits a day that only the actual
pirate websites were getting, it'd add up to a lot of money for Sega, which
already didn't have enough. Thus, Piracy helped, if not caused, the earlier
death of the Dreamcast in the US.


Interviews let them talk as they will and lie as much as they want. A lot of bullshit there, just like any Trip's interview about the 3DO or any Atari CEO talking any time. They always act like they have changed the world and invented a lot of stuff but, sadly, if you come to the games released outside US, you'll see that they didn't made much of difference.

If you are going to discount primary sources on the topic I certainly cannot add anything more. Franz and Kalinske even independently agreed on a good deal, like the SGI deal, that we previously thought Kalinske was being bullish about. I see no reason to dismiss these interviews, out of hand or otherwise.



That's just a bad excuse to throw money out of the window.
SOA had ZERO experience, even in publishing, with CD games when they went for a gigantic studio. That does make any sense to you? Business-wise I can assure you that's a very risky and fail-prone attitude/investment.

Yeah, I'm just telling you that SOA made the same contribution of a huge amount of dog shit to the development of multimedia in the industry.

Which reduces even more its scope and relevance since the Sega CD's US library has many FMV games. And they are mostly bad, have helped to hurt the console's image while the Multimedia Studio was there, making piles of crap.

What makes you believe that SOA's Multimedia Studio was a state of art one? Really, it's was just a POS.

Well, apparently Tommy Tallerico and Michael Jackson were impressed with the studio. I've always taken that and the magazines calling it state of the art at face value. That and nobody else was trying to make games like Jurassic Park CD at the time, though Origin handily beat anything Sega did in writing/acting/directing and A/V quality. I don't know how much of the localization for Wing Commander on Sega CD was done in the US, but I thought that was a great effort all around.



So any live acting scenes are inherited from the Sega CD games? C'mon!
That game is like a Shockwave rip-off. IIRC Shockwave has nothing to do with Sega.


Really man, you have to know you're blowing my position to the absurd here.



Considering the interactive games on the 3DO created with a extremely reduced budget by unknown tiny studios that are just as "good" as Sega's Multimedia Studio best effort, we can see that such studio was just a huge waste of time and money.


Why do you think they were extremely reduced budgets? How do you know they didn't spend most of their budget leasing studio space they might have gotten a better deal on if Matsushita created a studio specifically for 3DO development? See where I am going here?



That's bullshit. Believe it or not, companies supporting the PCE CD in Japan were able to create games making good use of the CD right in the early '90s, so:
A) What you said is just bullshit that SOA used all the time to excuse their own incompetence and bad choices in terms of games line-up.
B) Companies supporting the Sega CD were a POS when compared to the ones supporting the PCE CD.
C) Sega CD was released without the proper development tools. In such case, is it my fault? Sony's fault? or Sega fault?
D) A mixture of the previous items.


I'm not sure exactly what I said was bullshit, but Konami did spend a pretty penny creating its own Multimedia studio to support the PCE CD. Both Sega's Western studio and Konami's in Japan were big news in 1992, just after the Mega CD's and DUO's Japanese launch and two years before the Playstation saw Japanese release. What exactly did I say that was bullshit?



Please, don't dig your own grave. Take all games released for the PCE CD during the first two years of its release in Japan and then compare those games to the ones released in the first two years of Mega CD's life.
I'll be eating popcorn while you list them.


Um, did I say somewhere that Sega's efforts with the Sega CD exclusively supported better games? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.



That's a blatant lie and smashed view you keep spreading as if it had any truth in its own, but it doesn't.

That the PS1 library wasn't the absolute positive definitive 32-bit library prior to 1998 is hardly a lie. Same goes for the NES prior to 1990. Keep in mind I'm actually not saying the Saturn was definitively better prior to that either, not sure why that assertion keeps getting foisted on me.



Backing a bit, to your defense of SOA's investment in that POS studio, let's see what Sony did. Instead of creating any gigantic monster with no experience, they bought Psygnosis and also used the Sony Imagesoft label to gain experience with the multimedia stuff prior to anything.
Psygnosis had a MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH bigger experience with CD games than SOA ever dreamed of. OTOH, Sony Imagesoft make a partnership with Sega, I wonder, to learn more about games publishing and distribution in large scale.
Psygnosis had, in 1993/1994, already experienced all sorts of CG creation tools, 3D audio studio equipments and was able to publish in several platforms, including: Mega Drive, Mega CD, FM Towns, Amiga... A lot of great games were developed or published by Psygnosis, with their publishing work many times including all the audio treatment of the games.

Sony Imagesoft cut its teeth with SoA and it's PoS Studio and lying executives, making mostly FMV games recorded in the 80s and porting Genesis/SNES games while adding better music. Psygnosis made or had their games ported to both the Sega CD and PCE-CD long before Sony was a console manufacturer or respected in the game industry at all. Of course buying them was a good business decision, but it didn't cause Sony to be any more or less a respected game hardware/software maker. My assertion was that Sega's "utterly worthless" studio and add-ons had significant a hand in the industry ramping up for multi-media CD-ROM production. How does any of this negate my point?



While Sony was doing that, Sega was wasting money with the dumb Multimedia Studio which never produced anything great and only generated 2 mediocre games for the Sega CD. What a great show up of Sega's superior creativity, eh?

My assertion that Sega's creativity was always greater than Sony's is rooted in the historical fact of Sega's game and hardware development, and their willingness to take chances, try new things. Yes, I say their focus even on FMV was creative at the time, Sony certainly thought it was too.



Now, on your NES comparison, that's pretty much off. You say like if the Saturn was a better platform and the PS1 just outdone it when it was already dead. Well, it passes far away from the truth.
From day 1, in comparison to the Saturn, the PS1 had:
- Better and easier to use SDK. (Cost lots of money that Sega put into new games)
- Stronger 3rd party support, especially in Europe. (Cost lots of money that Sega put into new games)
- A hardware design which made PC-to-console ports a lot easier.
- Much better 2nd party support. (Cost lots of money that Sega put into new games)
- Far better marketing campaign. (Cost lots of money that Sega put into new games)
- Launch and early 3D games running at better framerate.
- Bigger and better publishers. (Cost lots of money that Sega put into new games)

I didn't say the Saturn was a better platform than the PS1. I said the PS1's library wasn't definitively better while the Saturn was on the market, or more specifically that the PS1's library is only better because it was on the market longer and dominated for most of the time it was marketable. I don't see any problems with your bullet points, I also don't see how they are relevant to my statement. As for Sony's business decisions, I don't know how else to say it besides what I have put in bold above.



That's all you chose to see.


Sure, after they kicked all of my preferred genres out, spat on their grave and tea bagged them. ;)

The above is a run on to the absurd, and not 100% logical or necessarily my opinion day in and day out.

MrSega
03-21-2013, 04:01 PM
Sega canceling the Dreamcast was one of the biggest disappointments for me as a gamer. This is probably the source of my disgust for the machine in the past. That said, I really did love this machine BITD. And unlike the N64s, the DCs cheap aftermarket 3rd party memory cards still work today. Then there's the homebrew scene for it which is awesome. To be honest, even though it's old and yellowing worse than my SNES (-_-), I'm starting to like this machine again.

They ran out of money. But since 2008, they've been steadily climbing back.

Vector2013
03-21-2013, 04:42 PM
Piracy also help sell Dreamcasts too later, ironically.

Black_Tiger
03-21-2013, 05:08 PM
Piracy isn't simply downloading roms/isos for personal use. Shops everywhere sold cdr Playstation games long before the Dreamcast and then after the DC came out, you could buy games new here for $70 - $80 after taxes, or you could walk into shops all over the place, visit flea markets or reply to ads in the buy&sell to buy discs with covers for $5 or less individually, with discounts for multiple games.

I know that it wasn't some kind of local phenomenon, because I talked to many people in the U.S. in forums from 1997 onward who described Playstation and later DC piracy as being the same where they lived. Bootleg Saturn games were sold locally at least since I moved to the big city in 1996. Playstation piracy at least required having your console modied. But with Dreamcast you only had to buy a boot disc (sold locally for $10) from the people selling the bootleg games. I think that most actually included a free game with the boot disc. Saturn and Playstation bootlegs also traditionally sold for $10 - $40 (Saturn imports with full reproed packaging), but DC bootlegs were virtually free from day one and you could buy imports of games well before they were available at retail in North America. I still see Playstation bootlegs all over and even Neo Geo CD and 3DO bootlegs with full repro packaging.

I saw locally how DC retail sales went from having trouble stocking enough copies to rotting on shelves before the PS2 came out.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2013, 05:11 PM
How could they sell Saturn bootlegs? It's impossible to boot burned games on the system unless you have a mod chip.

And I never saw bootleg Dreamcast or PS1 games in stores where I lived. Where did you live at the time? Hong Kong?

sheath
03-21-2013, 05:11 PM
Dreamcast CDRs were/are self booting, they didn't need a boot disk. The same Utopia Boot Disk could be downloaded for free and burned with any CD-Writable drive, which I had from 1999 on in my budget PC. I used the Utopia disk to play imports until I burned a CDR of the GameShark disk (useless except for imports if you didn't have the VMU Gameshark too).

The only time I saw a boot disk sold in Texas was with Shenmue II, and even then it was an official looking one not the Utopia disk. I have never once seen a bootleg disk in the wild for any console.

gamevet
03-21-2013, 05:47 PM
If piracy was that rampant on DC, NFL2K2 would not have sold near 1 million units in North America.

Vector2013
03-21-2013, 05:53 PM
How could they sell Saturn bootlegs? It's impossible to boot burned games on the system unless you have a mod chip.


Swap trick.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2013, 05:56 PM
Swap trick.

Yeah, and that's pretty hard to do on Model 2 systems and it severely damages the CDROM drive. And it still ignores the point that you can't just throw a burned Saturn disc into the Saturn and have it boot like you can on the Dreamcast. I've heard of bootleg PC-Engine CD, Sega CD, 3DO, Neo Geo CD, and even PS1 games, but I've never ever heard of or seen bootleg Saturn games.

sheath
03-21-2013, 05:57 PM
If piracy was that rampant on DC, NFL2K2 would not have sold near 1 million units in North America.

I don't think piracy had to negate sales, just mitigate them, to make it a serious issue for Sega in 2000. So again, if 1% of all NFL2K sales were lost to pirates Sega lost too much money.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2013, 06:08 PM
The average budget for games that generation was $5 million. So if we assume that's what NFL2K2's budget was, and we assume they made about $20 per copy sold (current games make about $30 per unit sold at $60), then Sega only needed to sell 250k copies to break even.

Vector2013
03-21-2013, 06:15 PM
Yeah, and that's pretty hard to do on Model 2 systems and it severely damages the CDROM drive.


I never had a problem doing it on a model 2 although on my model 1 it was easier I admit. Almost 2nd nature.


And it still ignores the point that you can't just throw a burned Saturn disc into the Saturn and have it boot like you can on the Dreamcast.


When was that brought up that you can just put a bootleg in your Saturn and it'll work ? I quoted you saying a mod chip was needed. But it wasn't. Or maybe you meant mod by taping lid switch. I did the swap trick since late 90s. It was common knowledge even then, and back then and now I'm not the most tech savy person.


I've heard of bootleg PC-Engine CD, Sega CD, 3DO, Neo Geo CD, and even PS1 games, but I've never ever heard of or seen bootleg Saturn games.

Okay. Everyones experiences are different. I never saw any bootlegs in stores. But bootlegging Sega CD games was easy in mid to late 90s even from browsing basic forums in my school library computer. Just a niche thing if you had internet and cd burner and a pc at your house. It took me days to download Sega CD and Saturn games on dial up in 1998 or 1999 then later we heard you can do it for DC.

Edit :

None of which needed a "mod chip". Even Utopia separate disc (first home app) for DC was out dated weeks later because games had it put in with ISOs which when put in DC, booted right up like a retail game.

old man
03-21-2013, 08:28 PM
If piracy was a problem then why didn't Sega just make a revision that couldn't play games off CDR's, or even make a rev. that couldn't play them at all? In all that time there aren't any Dreamcasts that can't play CDRs (that I know of).

sheath
03-21-2013, 09:19 PM
If piracy was a problem then why didn't Sega just make a revision that couldn't play games off CDR's, or even make a rev. that couldn't play them at all? In all that time there aren't any Dreamcasts that can't play CDRs (that I know of).

There actually are Dreamcasts that blocked the CDR booting option, they just occurred so close to the last run of consoles made that they basically don't matter. I suspect that had the Dreamcast continued there would have been online detection software for the CDR boot method that would have banned SegaNet accounts in a similar way that Xbox Live and other services do the same.

The problem we are discussing though is the critical year of 2000 and how Dreamcast piracy contributed to Sega getting out of the hardware business.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2013, 09:38 PM
I never had a problem doing it on a model 2 although on my model 1 it was easier I admit. Almost 2nd nature.



When was that brought up that you can just put a bootleg in your Saturn and it'll work ? I quoted you saying a mod chip was needed. But it wasn't. Or maybe you meant mod by taping lid switch. I did the swap trick since late 90s. It was common knowledge even then, and back then and now I'm not the most tech savy person.



Okay. Everyones experiences are different. I never saw any bootlegs in stores. But bootlegging Sega CD games was easy in mid to late 90s even from browsing basic forums in my school library computer. Just a niche thing if you had internet and cd burner and a pc at your house. It took me days to download Sega CD and Saturn games on dial up in 1998 or 1999 then later we heard you can do it for DC.

Edit :

None of which needed a "mod chip". Even Utopia separate disc (first home app) for DC was out dated weeks later because games had it put in with ISOs which when put in DC, booted right up like a retail game.

I didn't say you needed a mod chip for the Dreamcast. You do need one for the Saturn though if you don't want to kill the Disc Drive. Yeah the swap trick works, but only morons do it because essentially every time you do it you risk damaging the CD-ROM drive. My point was, where on earth did they sell bootleg Saturn games since no matter how you spin it you have to do some kind of modification to the console to make it work? And "I downloaded one Saturn game and burned it once after the system was already dead and gone!" doesn't count. Also, who actually had a CD Burner when the Saturn was still on the market? Anyone?

From my memory CD Burners around 1999 were still over $100, and I honestly remember them being closer to $200. By 2002 they were around $60-$80 depending on brand. That's pretty expensive. And considering studies the music industry was doing around that time said in 1999 14% of people had CD Burners, I think it's safe to say piracy at that time was fairly limited in it's scope. In 2002 that percentage grew to 40%. While that's a large increase, it's still the minority.Yes, enthusiasts had CD burners at that time, but the average gamer didn't.

gamevet
03-21-2013, 10:23 PM
I don't think piracy had to negate sales, just mitigate them, to make it a serious issue for Sega in 2000. So again, if 1% of all NFL2K sales were lost to pirates Sega lost too much money.

That is not rampant piracy numbers. If piracy was really killing sales of the DC, the numbers for NFL2K and 2K1 wouldn't have been that high. Madden 2001 (PS2 launch title) only sold 1.21 million units in North America, compared to 1.13 million NFL2K units sold and 1.01 million units for NFL2K1.

The Dreamcast plummeted, as soon as the PS2 was launched. It had only sold @ 2.5 million units in North America, before Sega ceased production of the console. The PS2 sold nearly a million units within the first 10 days in Japan alone.


http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Biggest_game_system_launches

sheath
03-21-2013, 10:38 PM
That is not rampant piracy numbers. If piracy was really killing sales of the DC, the numbers for NFL2K and 2K1 wouldn't have been that high. Madden 2001 (PS2 launch title) only sold 1.21 million units in North America, compared to 1.13 million NFL2K units sold and 1.01 million units for NFL2K1.

The Dreamcast plummeted, as soon as the PS2 was launched. It had only sold @ 2.5 million units in North America, before Sega ceased production of the console. The PS2 sold nearly a million units within the first 10 days in Japan alone.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Biggest_game_system_launches

Why does it have to be "rampant" to be a contributing factor to the Dreamcast's discontinuation? 2.5 million Dreamcast users in the US before February of 2001 sounds a little low to me as well.

gamevet
03-21-2013, 10:59 PM
Why does it have to be "rampant" to be a contributing factor to the Dreamcast's discontinuation? 2.5 million Dreamcast users in the US before February of 2001 sounds a little low to me as well.

1% isn't much to bark about. Used game sales probably accounted for at least 10% of lost sales of new titles for all consoles.

2.5 millions doesn't sound that bad, considering that was a little over 1 year and 5 months. There was still a lot of product sitting in retail that had not sold, and Sega had @ a million units sitting in their stock that also had to be sold out. I don't recall the exact number that SOJ was expecting SOA to have sold by the end of 2000, but I believe it was somewhere around 4 million and they came up short. That unsold stock had to be sitting in North American warehouses somewhere.


Let's forget the negative talk for a few and enjoy this nice tribute to the DC by Gamespot. :)

LRgZg2UhzEU

sheath
03-21-2013, 11:10 PM
My 1% thing was low balling the piracy that was estimated at the time to make the point I think was pretty plain. For a company that only had about $500 Million to its name, losing any amount of sales for an reason was untenable. What percentage of that unsold stock would you attribute to readily available CDR copies?

I would much prefer this stay on the positive side of things though. If anybody would like to take a jack hammer or A-bomb to the topic of Sega being the stupidest most worthless and idiotic gaming company ever, please start the 1000th thread on that elsewhere.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2013, 11:16 PM
If the amount of piracy was about 20% or more then I'd consider it a problem.

Piracy wasn't a true problem for the Dreamcast. The true problem was Sega bleeding money from 1994 to 2002.

gamevet
03-21-2013, 11:32 PM
My 1% thing was low balling the piracy that was estimated at the time to make the point I think was pretty plain. For a company that only had about $500 Million to its name, losing any amount of sales for an reason was untenable. What percentage of that unsold stock would you attribute to readily available CDR copies?

Sega was losing money on the hardware. They had dropped the price to $150 for the 2000 holiday season and were giving away free Dreamcasts with a 2 year sub to Seganet; I actually got a $100 check from Sega for being a subscriber. Yeah, they took losses from piracy, but the real losses were the costs of creating the console, marketing it and Seganet.



I would much prefer this stay on the positive side of things though. If anybody would like to take a jack hammer or A-bomb to the topic of Sega being the stupidest most worthless and idiotic gaming company ever, please start the 1000th thread on that elsewhere.

That would be nice for a change. ;)

Vector2013
03-21-2013, 11:59 PM
I didn't say you needed a mod chip for the Dreamcast.


And I never said you said that. I made the edit to articulate that Sega CD or Saturn or DC didn't need a mod to play cd-rs. Again, you said and I quoted you saying that a mod chip was needed for Saturn to play bootlegs, which it doesn't.


You do need one for the Saturn though if you don't want to kill the Disc Drive.


A myth. Just like "using cd-r will ruin your DC gdrom drive" others say. None of my Saturns had anything wrong or affected with doing the swap trick for over a decade. None of my DCs were affected using cd-rs. There is a thread on another forum explaining it. It wears on drive mechanic very minutely but won't risk breaking drive or ruining eye.


Yeah the swap trick works, but only morons do it because essentially every time you do it you risk damaging the CD-ROM drive.


Me and my friends did the trick for over a decade and we aren't morons and guess what nothing happened to our consoles.


My point was, where on earth did they sell bootleg Saturn games

I don't know as I said earlier I never saw bootleg Saturn games in stores either.


since no matter how you spin it you have to do some kind of modification to the console to make it work?


I'm not spinning anything. You said mod chip. I can only go by what you type. Is putting tape on switch a mod, technically yes but you said mod chip and guess what you don't need tape on Model 1s if you time it correctly you can eject lid at perfect time and swap.


And "I downloaded one Saturn game and burned it once after the system was already dead and gone!" doesn't count.


Who said that ?


Also, who actually had a CD Burner when the Saturn was still on the market? Anyone?

I had an enternal PC CD burner in early 1998. Djs I knew in 1997 had them but they were expensive yes. I'm not even a tech savy person. Cost $200 in early 1998 here where I live. Cost my friend in 1997 over $400.


From my memory CD Burners around 1999 were still over $100, and I honestly remember them being closer to $200. By 2002 they were around $60-$80 depending on brand. That's pretty expensive.


Everyones experiences are different. CD burner/writer technology was thee fastest and price reduced technology ever just like playing the cd media got cheaper quickly over time. In 1991 it costs companies $50,000 in 1995 it cost a company $1000 in early 1998 (I was buying Saturn games then) it cost the avg person $200 in 1999 my faster internal pc cd burner cost $139 (not expensive), my home cd recorder cost $249 and my mini disc recorder (I know not regulat cd) cost $189. I got receipts for the last 3 in a box.


And considering studies the music industry was doing around that time said in 1999 14% of people had CD Burners,


Sounds off. Sounds like they were downplaying the real percentage to downplay piracy which they dreaded then big time. Everyone I knew had a cd burner in 1999 and none of us were tech savy, in fact in 1999 leaked retail albums were being downloaded as mp3s and converted to wav and burned on cds or kept as mp3s to play on mp3 players (way before the ipod was a thought). I can provide proof for that.


I think it's safe to say piracy at that time was fairly limited in it's scope. In 2002 that percentage grew to 40%. While that's a large increase, it's still the minority.Yes, enthusiasts had CD burners at that time, but the average gamer didn't.

I said it was niche early on but I wasn't a hardcore gamer or tech savy and even I had a cd burners in late 90s, both pc burners and Phillip home recorders.

old man
03-22-2013, 12:26 AM
I don't think that Sega was the stupidest most worthless and idiotic gaming company ever, just a bunch of quitters. Anyway, that PowerVR chipset might not have been as powerful as everyone elses, but I've always liked how crisp, sharp, and colorful everything looked. Also DC ports to the Cube always looked washed out to me.

Genesis Knight
03-22-2013, 12:52 AM
On a totally different note, which is the best KoF game for Dreamcast? 99 Dream Match? Evolution? 2000/01/02?

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 01:03 AM
And I never said you said that. I made the edit to articulate that Sega CD or Saturn or DC didn't need a mod to play cd-rs. Again, you said and I quoted you saying that a mod chip was needed for Saturn to play bootlegs, which it doesn't.



A myth. Just like "using cd-r will ruin your DC gdrom drive" others say. None of my Saturns had anything wrong or affected with doing the swap trick for over a decade. None of my DCs were affected using cd-rs. There is a thread on another forum explaining it. It wears on drive mechanic very minutely but won't risk breaking drive or ruining eye.



Me and my friends did the trick for over a decade and we aren't morons and guess what nothing happened to our consoles.



I don't know as I said earlier I never saw bootleg Saturn games in stores either.



I'm not spinning anything. You said mod chip. I can only go by what you type. Is putting tape on switch a mod, technically yes but you said mod chip and guess what you don't need tape on Model 1s if you time it correctly you can eject lid at perfect time and swap.



Who said that ?



I had an enternal PC CD burner in early 1998. Djs I knew in 1997 had them but they were expensive yes. I'm not even a tech savy person. Cost $200 in early 1998 here where I live. Cost my friend in 1997 over $400.



Everyones experiences are different. CD burner/writer technology was thee fastest and price reduced technology ever just like playing the cd media got cheaper quickly over time. In 1991 it costs companies $50,000 in 1995 it cost a company $1000 in early 1998 (I was buying Saturn games then) it cost the avg person $200 in 1999 my faster internal pc cd burner cost $139 (not expensive), my home cd recorder cost $249 and my mini disc recorder (I know not regulat cd) cost $189. I got receipts for the last 3 in a box.



Sounds off. Sounds like they were downplaying the real percentage to downplay piracy which they dreaded then big time. Everyone I knew had a cd burner in 1999 and none of us were tech savy, in fact in 1999 leaked retail albums were being downloaded as mp3s and converted to wav and burned on cds or kept as mp3s to play on mp3 players (way before the ipod was a thought). I can provide proof for that.



I said it was niche early on but I wasn't a hardcore gamer or tech savy and even I had a cd burners in late 90s, both pc burners and Phillip home recorders.

$139 for a CD Burner was expensive back in 1999 for most people. Your personal experience doesn't change that fact. I doubt the percentage of owners with burners is off since in the same article they were talking about how the amount significantly increased by 2002. They most certainly weren't trying to downplay it. I think it's more you taking your personal experience and trying to say it was the norm. I didn't know anyone with a CD burner until around 2001, we didn't get our first one until 2002.

And what other forum said the Swap Trick doesn't damage the disc drive? Just about every Saturn forum I've been to it's pretty well stated that prolonged use WILL damage the drive. Think about it, you are forcefully stopping the motor while it's spinning and holding it. You're taking the risk of damaging the moving parts. Doing the Swap Trick is just about as stupid as swapping Carts while the system is turned on. It's just not a good idea. If you've truly been using the Swap trick heavily for over a decade consider yourself lucky that your Disc Drive isn't damaged. There are plenty of people on other forums who have reported it damaging their Disc Drive.

And Burned games CAN damage the GD-ROM drive in your Dreamcast. It's not as bad as it used to be though as now most people who rip the games and turn them into the CD images take more care in optimizing them. The problem that used to happen was the rips weren't optimized resulting in the laser having to work harder and longer to load data. Basically it would result in wearing the drive out faster.

SEGA.GENESIS1989
03-22-2013, 01:08 AM
I don't think that Sega was the stupidest most worthless and idiotic gaming company ever, just a bunch of quitters. Anyway, that PowerVR chipset might not have been as powerful as everyone elses, but I've always liked how crisp, sharp, and colorful everything looked. Also DC ports to the Cube always looked washed out to me.

I have to agree. The title for stupidest most worthles and idiotic gaming company of all time could go to some other worthy contenders. If SEGA went bankcrupt, then I would have no problem placing the crown on it's pointy little head. But it didn't and lately has been quite successful. Admittedly, much of the thanks goes to Isao Okawa who gave SEGA $695 million worth of Sega and CSK stock. SInce this is a thread about the Dreamcast, it should be mentioned that he gave SEGA $40 million dollars to fund the Dreamcast.

If you are a fan of SEGA, much of the accolades should be given to this man for helping SEGA survive during the last decade and to rebuild as a viable entity in the gaming market.

Isao Okawa I salute you!

Barone
03-22-2013, 01:09 AM
If you are going to discount primary sources on the topic I certainly cannot add anything more.
If you like to keep spreading shit like this, it's OK with me, I just found it pretty pointless and most of those claims were disproved like 20 years ago. But, hey, here we go with "primary sources":
dfk7N2BQ5Go




Franz and Kalinske even independently agreed on a good deal, like the SGI deal, that we previously thought Kalinske was being bullish about. I see no reason to dismiss these interviews, out of hand or otherwise.
The major and final reason to dismiss the shit they said is that the Multimedia Studio ended up being a huge and expensive failure.



Well, apparently Tommy Tallerico and Michael Jackson were impressed with the studio. I've always taken that and the magazines calling it state of the art at face value.
We all know it says almost nothing about the real value of things. Being impressed is OK, since the studio was very well ($$$) equipped but, then again, to produce good and innovative games out of it was the point (in which SOA failed miserably), not to impress popstars (they succeeded here, yahoo!!!).



That and nobody else was trying to make games like Jurassic Park CD at the time,
Wrong. Myst came out like 6 months earlier on Mac and it looked and played much better. A huge success produced by a, then, very small company with no huge hit Hollywood license like Jurassic Park nor a 10 million stupid studio full of jerks.
Myst scenes have much better transition, the CG scenes look much more impressive than those Sega expensive dinosaurs and the gameplay is way deeper in comparison. Again, released earlier and with much less resources.



though Origin handily beat anything Sega did in writing/acting/directing and A/V quality.
That wasn't really an achievement. Jurassic Park on the Sega CD wasn't anything special when it was released. Let's have a look at EGM's quote about the game:
"This is one of those point and click games that I don't get into very much. I think those games should stay for the computer. Although there are some action sequences, I just found the pace of the game too slow."
- Al Manuel, EGM March 1994

Let's see what EGM had previously published (March 1993) about the Sega Multimedia Studio:
"... What do you get when you invest millions of dollars into a multi-media studio to produce CD games, put the Sega-name on the door and then wait almost a year? Nothing!"



I don't know how much of the localization for Wing Commander on Sega CD was done in the US, but I thought that was a great effort all around.
The whole game was a great effort IMO, as the previous Game Arts releases for the Sega CD. Again, small company back then with no 10 million studio (http://www.sega-16.com/2011/08/developers-den-game-arts/).



Really man, you have to know you're blowing my position to the absurd here.
You're using the absurd as fact, that's no my fault.




Why do you think they were extremely reduced budgets? How do you know they didn't spend most of their budget leasing studio space they might have gotten a better deal on if Matsushita created a studio specifically for 3DO development? See where I am going here?
Games like Lost Eden and The Daedalus Encounter certainly didn't cost 10 millions bucks to the 3DO or any other company and were far much better, interesting and "innovative" than Jurassic Park on the Sega CD, to not talk about Willy Woody.
Not on the 3DO, but another good example, 7th Guest was also very successful and much better game than JP with "Most of the footage for the game was filmed with a US$35,000 budget, Super VHS cameras, and blue butcher paper as a background that would later be removed to help insert the actors in the game, a process called chromakey, or bluescreen.".

Bill Gates called The 7th Guest "the new standard in interactive entertainment."[1] If not for the popularity of The 7th Guest and Myst, a similar-styled adventure game, the CD-ROM would not have been as popular and would have taken longer to gain a foothold in the marketplace.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobyte)
Myst and The 7th Guest, both games developed by small companies with small budget. No, really no need of jerk gigantic 10 million bucks studio to make anything good with a CD-ROM. And, again, those two games had a much more important contribution to the industry than the Sega's Multimedia Dumb Studio.

Mansion of Hidden Souls on the very same Sega CD is a more interesting and deep point-and-click adventure than Jurassic Park IMO, released months earlier with mouse support and which also didn't need any 10 million multimedia studio to be made.



I'm not sure exactly what I said was bullshit,
Your SOA-like saying that the game companies weren't ready to make good use of the CD (You said: "That's how early the Sega CD was for the industry.").

That's another SOA CEOs' cheapo lie, they say it just trying to hide their incompetence in bring good games to the platform.
You know that SOA did something really wrong when you get games like Snatcher, The Space Adventure and Road Avenger constantly mentioned as some of best games on the system.

Road Avenger is a 1985 game, Snatcher is actually 1988's, Cobra Kuroryuuou no Densetsu is from 1989, Cobra II: Densetsu no Otoko (Space Adventure) is from 1991... Games like J.B. Harold Murder Club (1990) or Cosmic Fantasy: Bouken Shounen Yuu (1990) on the PCE CD did make some good use of the CD medium despite the rudimentary tools available. And there are several more examples if you look at the FM Towns library... All those games were already there when the Mega CD was released in Japan in late 1991!
For the western side of things, there were several good point-and-click games or early CG-based FMV games which were never released on the system. Games that maybe aren't great but certainly much better than any ALG offer or Digital Pictures crappy production. And, heck, a bit later some of those games were ported to systems like 3DO and CD-i with positive reviews...
So, no, it's not like the industry wasn't ready for the Sega CD. It was Sega, both SOA and SOJ, which wasn't ready to properly build a good library for a CD-based system.






Psygnosis made or had their games ported to both the Sega CD and PCE-CD long before Sony was a console manufacturer or respected in the game industry at all.
However, Sony had acquired them still in 1993.



Of course buying them was a good business decision, but it didn't cause Sony to be any more or less a respected game hardware/software maker.
It does brought a lot of "know-how" to Sony in many gaming-related business aspects.




My assertion was that Sega's "utterly worthless" studio and add-ons had significant a hand in the industry ramping up for multi-media CD-ROM production. How does any of this negate my point?
The problem is that your "point" is all based in your very own belief in Sega's official words about their studio objectives and relevance. OTOH, there's no non-Sega source pointing that POS studio as relevant to any extent of the gaming history.




My assertion that Sega's creativity was always greater than Sony's is rooted in the historical fact of Sega's game and hardware development, and their willingness to take chances, try new things. Yes, I say their focus even on FMV was creative at the time, Sony certainly thought it was too.
So, to invest in poorly recorded and atrociously directed '80s B-movies as "games" was one of the Sega's creative moves? Thanks, I think I'll pass that one.



(Cost lots of money that Sega put into new games)
That's pure fanboysm talking. Look at the very same magazines you love to use to defend the 32X or any other "creative" move from Sega...
Things Sega spent money during its "glorious" times:
-Dumb useless multimedia studio.
-Non-liar and totally scientific-based Blast Processing campaign.
-Revolutionary activator controller development and marketing campaign.
-Angry black guy Sega CD Ad.
-6 month short-lived 40X times powerful 32-bit add-on whose most of lifespan was dedicated to sluggish half-assed ports of 16-bit games.
-Single-game ever used ultra-revolutionary SVP technology.

Sorry, I don't care about those "new games".
Anyway, looks like Sega had a lot of money to toss, so I really find it hard to blame the all-evil and demoniac Sony for draining all Sega resources with its "anti-competitive" attitude.



or more specifically that the PS1's library is only better because it was on the market longer and dominated for most of the time it was marketable.
That's a very biased way to see things IMO.





Way to deceptively describe what I said. I mean, because I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said that Sega's first-party racing game lineup on the Dreamcast is disappointing. First party lineup only, not the pretty good third-party DC racing game library.

Here's a comparison of the first/second party published racing game lineups on the N64, DC, and GC. They're put in order of release, first to last. (note: games originally published by some other company and then released later on in another region by Nintendo or Sega don't count here)

N64: Wave Race 64, Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, F-Zero X, 1080 Snowboarding, Excitebike 64, Mickey's Racing USA.

DC: Sega Rally 2, CART Flag to Flag, Sega GT, F355 Challenge, 18 Wheeler: American Pro Trucker, Daytona USA (2001). Hang-On and Outrun are also both playable in Shenmue, and both of those plus Power Drift are in Yu Suzuki Game Works Vol. 1.

GC: Wave Race: Blue Storm, Kirby Air Ride, F-Zero GX, Mario Kart: Double Dash, 1080 Avalanche

That DC list does get a bit longer if you add CRI's two games in (they were a third party, but were sort of Sega-exclusive, yes?), Buggy Heat (aka TNN Motorsports Hardcore Heat in the US) and Surf Rocket Racers (Power Jet Racing 2001 in Japan). And finally, if you count Crazy Taxi, naturally that helps things a lot... but that's not a traditional racing game, of course. Overall though, of those three lists, the N64 one is the one with the most consistently high quality -- those DC and GC lists both have some not-as-great games, but all of those N64 games are very good. As for DC vs. GC though, that's tougher... I'm not sure.

I will say though, my two favorite Sega racing games of that generation are Outrun 2006 and F-Zero X.
While I agree with some of your points and can see what you actually meant, it's hard for me to partake any serious discussion with you about racing games if you fail to see that F355 Challenge on the DC was on a different league in many aspects, it was waaaay ahead of any other game you listed IMO. And to put Mickey's Racing USA in the same post of it is just... sad.




On a totally different note, which is the best KoF game for Dreamcast? 99 Dream Match? Evolution? 2000/01/02?
99 Dream Match, just 'cause KOF '98 >>>>> 99 + 2000 + 2001 + 2002. Seriously. ;)

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 02:21 AM
$139 for a CD Burner was expensive back in 1999 for most people. Your personal experience doesn't change that fact.


And it ain't a fact because you say so about that. It wasn't expensive to me or my friends from my experience. I'm not going to sit here and say it was or wasn't for MOST people because I said everyones experience is different. I had a job though, and anything left over after rent went to stuff like that. $139 expensive ? Subjective imo.



I doubt the percentage of owners with burners is off since in the same article they were talking about how the amount significantly increased by 2002.


I bet it did increase by 2002. But only 14% of people had cd burners in 1999 ? Link ? And was that reality ? More like estimations. And those aren't facts.


They most certainly weren't trying to downplay it. I think it's more you taking your personal experience and trying to say it was the norm. I didn't know anyone with a CD burner until around 2001, we didn't get our first one until 2002.

I'm just explaining my experience and my friends, I said everyones experience is different, but I doubt it was actually 14%. And internet piracy was a norm concern in the music industry then, internet audio burned to cd-r, was a fact :

"However, the late 1990s and early 2000s saw an increase in the free trading of digital bootlegs, sharply decreasing the demand for and profitability of physical bootlegs. The rise of standard audio file formats such as MP3 and FLAC, combined with the ability to share files between computers via e-mail, FTP, instant messaging, and specialized peer-to-peer file sharing networks such as Napster (now defunct as p2p), Limewire, Soulseek and BitTorrent, made it simpler than ever for bootleg collectors to exchange rarities. Older analog recordings were converted to digital format for the first time, tracks from bootleg CDs were ripped to computer hard disks, and new material was created with digital recording of various types, and all of these types could now be easily shared. The quality and portability of recording devices and microphones also increased exponentially, resulting in recordings which were often on a par with official releases. One notable change caused by this shift in technology was the unit of exchange: instead of album-length collections or live recordings of entire shows, fans often now had the option of searching for and downloading bootlegs of individual songs.[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleg_recording

If you think that wiki link is unreliable, look for similar info on other sites. Here is a good study during early 1999 to early 2000.

http://www.ifpi.org/content/library/Piracy2000.pdf

http://www.thesituation.co.uk/features/napster/napster.html

And I personally remember VCD pirating was out of control in late 90s in Asia, my brother sent me VCD movies to play on my Saturn using my VCD mpeg player (VCDs didn't hurt my Saturn either) :

http://www.computerdjsummit.com/members/documents/piracy.html


And what other forum said the Swap Trick doesn't damage the disc drive?


I was going to post a link to DC laser discussion, I don't think I mentioned posting a Swap Trick link that doesn't damage Saturn drive but here post 14 20 and more, I admit it is debatable :

http://segaxtreme.net/community/topic/10391-official-swap-trick-support-thread/


Just about every Saturn forum I've been to it's pretty well stated that prolonged use WILL damage the drive.


Yeah just like people saying a 32 x won't work in a cdx on forums while I was playing 32 x games on my 32x plugged in my cdx. I saw people saying it does, and some saying it don't about Saturn swap trick too.


Think about it, you are forcefully stopping the motor while it's spinning and holding it.

You put the cd in when other stops spinning after 1st cycle. If anything you slow it down AFTER it free spins before the next cycle. There is a proper and unproper way to do it. I never had any problems.


You're taking the risk of damaging the moving parts.


If you don't do it right, minor wear COULD happen as I stated.


Doing the Swap Trick is just about as stupid as swapping Carts while the system is turned on.


No it ain't.


It's just not a good idea. If you've truly been using the Swap trick heavily for over a decade consider yourself lucky that your Disc Drive isn't damaged.

Yes I'm being truthful and I have no reason to lie. I'm just going by what I experienced myself or friends consoles. If we are lucky that my 3 Saturns and all my friends Saturns still work perfect after all the consoles had swap tricks performed on them (the trick should be done correctly) perhaps we are then.


There are plenty of people on other forums who have reported it damaging their Disc Drive.

Just like people saying 32 x doesn't work in cdx, like cd-rs destroyed their GDRoms drive yeah yeah there are people like that, but I'm not saying it's impossible if they did it wrong or maybe their drive wasn't in good shape to begin with.


And Burned games CAN damage the GD-ROM drive in your Dreamcast. It's not as bad as it used to be though as now most people who rip the games and turn them into the CD images take more care in optimizing them. The problem that used to happen was the rips weren't optimized resulting in the laser having to work harder and longer to load data. Basically it would result in wearing the drive out faster.

That is correct. I'm going to post the link discussing it even though you nailed it, however nobody I knew ever had that happen. And I know a lot of people with DCs. There a great posts debating it here.

http://dreamcast-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5322&start=30

Do you personally know anyone who had their Saturn or DC ruined directly from cd-rs. Be honest. 100% that was the cause ?

Edit :

I enjoyed our friendly debate and glad we can debate without being rude to each other. I'm going by my experience and I can't say what was expensive to most people, as I don't know most of those people. But everyone I knew who weren't even making $15,000 a year then (below avg) had cd burners (either pc, home or both or even minidisc) in 1999 and internet piracy was definitely a problem for the music industry as bootleg cds were all over then and bootleg vcds were out of control. I think we both brought nice points up but I think we should let people reading our back in forths make up their own mind or weigh in instead of us going in circles.

bultje112
03-22-2013, 08:26 AM
If piracy was that rampant on DC, NFL2K2 would not have sold near 1 million units in North America.

it didn't, not even close.


If piracy was a problem then why didn't Sega just make a revision that couldn't play games off CDR's, or even make a rev. that couldn't play them at all? In all that time there aren't any Dreamcasts that can't play CDRs (that I know of).

they did

bultje112
03-22-2013, 08:30 AM
That is not rampant piracy numbers. If piracy was really killing sales of the DC, the numbers for NFL2K and 2K1 wouldn't have been that high. Madden 2001 (PS2 launch title) only sold 1.21 million units in North America, compared to 1.13 million NFL2K units sold and 1.01 million units for NFL2K1.

The Dreamcast plummeted, as soon as the PS2 was launched. It had only sold @ 2.5 million units in North America, before Sega ceased production of the console. The PS2 sold nearly a million units within the first 10 days in Japan alone.


http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Biggest_game_system_launches

ugh, next time you open your mouth, look into the facts first.

the dreamcast wasn't hacked until in the late part of 2000, so of cours enfl 2k and 2k1 sold very well. did you see sales 2001 and onwards? HORRIBLE, sonic adventure 2 sold 15% of the original sonic adventure. the game was out for download 8 weeks(!!) before official release

gamevet
03-22-2013, 09:45 AM
ugh, next time you open your mouth, look into the facts first.

the dreamcast wasn't hacked until in the late part of 2000, so of cours enfl 2k and 2k1 sold very well. did you see sales 2001 and onwards? HORRIBLE, sonic adventure 2 sold 15% of the original sonic adventure. the game was out for download 8 weeks(!!) before official release

Next time you open your mouth, maybe you need to get the facts straight. DC ceased production in March of 2001. Piracy was not rampant in 2000 and the sales figures reflect that. Piracy in 2001 had nothing to do with the discontinuation of the DC; it was already a done deal.


It's still fact that NFL2K and 2K1 both sold over a million units. Piracy did not affect their sales numbers. OMG! I lumped 2K2 in there! DC was already dead in buried at retail by the end of 2001.

bultje112
03-22-2013, 09:52 AM
Next time you open your mouth, maybe you need to get the facts straight. DC ceased production in March of 2001. Piracy was not rampant in 2000 and the sales figures reflect that. Piracy in 2001 had nothing to do with the discontinuation of the DC; it was already a done deal.


It's still fact that NFL2K and 2K1 both sold over a million units. Piracy did not affect their sales numbers. OMG! I lumped 2K2 in there! DC was already dead in buried at retail by the end of 2001.

do you even know that piracy started in late 2000. exactly late august 2000 and overnight the dreamcast piracy scene went from nothing to bigger than psx and the biggest there was. hardware sales increased in fact in late 2000, because of that, while sofware sales halted big time, and nfl2k1 of course sold very well because it was first american football game that featured online play, similar to how pso sold relatively well because burning the game couldn't get you online without an access code.

Black_Tiger
03-22-2013, 11:06 AM
How could they sell Saturn bootlegs? It's impossible to boot burned games on the system unless you have a mod chip.

And I never saw bootleg Dreamcast or PS1 games in stores where I lived. Where did you live at the time? Hong Kong?

Close: Vancouver. But like I said, everywhere I went online, people in the U.S. talked about how widedpread PS1 and DC bootlegs were and lots of people sold them as well as PCE and Sega-CD cdrs on forums, eBay, Yahoo auctions, etc. When I browsed second hand stores in Washington state in the late 90's I also saw bootleg PSX games.

The one store I first saw cdr Saturn games at also did modchip service, but soon lots of stores sold discs burned to order from catalogs.

gamevet
03-22-2013, 11:20 AM
do you even know that piracy started in late 2000. exactly late august 2000 and overnight the dreamcast piracy scene went from nothing to bigger than psx and the biggest there was. hardware sales increased in fact in late 2000, because of that, while sofware sales halted big time, and nfl2k1 of course sold very well because it was first american football game that featured online play, similar to how pso sold relatively well because burning the game couldn't get you online without an access code.


That increase in sales started with a price drop to $149 and quickly subsided at the end of the holiday season. Those $99 and $50 Dreamcasts at Best Buy would have flown off of shelves if piracy was increasing sales, but they didn't.

And when did a pirated copy stop someone from taking NFL2K1 online?

sheath
03-22-2013, 11:49 AM
If you like to keep spreading shit like this, it's OK with me, I just found it pretty pointless and most of those claims were disproved like 20 years ago. But, hey, here we go with "primary sources":
dfk7N2BQ5Go[/YOUTUBE]

The major and final reason to dismiss the shit they said is that the Multimedia Studio ended up being a huge and expensive failure.

That is no reason to dismiss anything historically. In fact, dismissing expensive failures and the primary sources around them is a very biased thing to do. Similarly, you are misunderstanding my intentions and railing on me instead of considering the possibility that I had something to say. I'm not going to go back and quote myself, but what I am trying to say is that Sega's early efforts with the multi-media studio, multi-media in general, and the Sega CD was very influential in the industry. Is it possible that some companies saw what Sega did and decided to do things differently? Absolutely, but that is still Sega's actions influencing the industry.

As for Joe Miller, Tom Kalinske and Scot Bayless, I'm not asking you to believe their self promotion, especially at the time. What I am talking about is reading between the lines, using their first hand accounts to gain a better understanding. For example, another one of Sega's earlier influences was Joe Miller himself (http://www.sega-16.com/2013/02/interview-joe-miller/)who said:


I was actually consulting for Sega from mid ’91 to early ’92 for Ken Balthaser, helping him coordinate and organize the internal multimedia studio. I then recruited the initial director of the studio, Tom Reuterdahl and stepped away to do some other things. When Ken decided to leave Sega and join his son’s new venture, Sega reached out to me, as I had a recent existing relationship, and asked me to join as Senior Vice President of Product Development. I wasn’t sure that was what I wanted to do, but after getting in and having some conversations with Tom Kalinske at length about the working relationship with Sega of Japan (SOJ), how much independence would be involved, deciding exactly what to build and how the process would work, I felt more comfortable with it. And in October of ’92 I formally joined Sega, and stayed through the formation of SegaSoft and ultimately ended up leaving in August of ’96. I continued on as a consultant to mop up some things for them, and then pretty much handed everything over in early ’97.


You see, if Kalinske and Sega of America could influence these two people's careers with their multi-media studio what do you think that caused in the industry as a whole?

Here is another example from Scot Bayless (http://www.sega-16.com/2012/03/interview-scot-bayless/):


I met Michael just before that all went down. Possibly the strangest conversation I’ve ever had. By that point, I’d been introduced to a pretty wide spectrum of music guys. David Bowie, Thomas Dolby, Todd Rundgren, Vince Neil and a bunch of others. The music guys were fascinated by the prospect of a game machine that could play ‘real’ music – not those beeps and boops that people thought video games were about. The PR gang was walking Michael around and he showed up in my office with this trail… this entourage… strung out a hundred feet behind him. We showed him what we were doing with Jurassic Park, and the whole time, maybe 20 minutes, he never made eye contact, barely even responded to anything we did or said. It was like talking to a mannequin. And then he asked about the music for Ecco and I said, “Hey, Spencer Nilsen is right down the hall. Why don’t you come see the music studio?” It was like the guy suddenly woke up from a coma. We took him down to the studio, introduced him to Spencer, and for about the next hour watched as this whole other person emerged. He was animated. He was genuinely engaged, even excited. A completely different person. It was frankly the most amazing thing I’ve ever seen.
I think that was the moment when Michael made the decision to work with Sega. He really wanted to be a part of what he saw happening with Spencer in the studio. As to how things went from there, I honestly don’t have much detail. Roger Hector is the guy who really knows that story.



So you see, Sega's ramping up production in 1992-4 for multimedia drew a lot of attention to the game industry. Attention brings talent, money, and ideas, and that is all I was saying.



We all know it says almost nothing about the real value of things. Being impressed is OK, since the studio was very well ($$$) equipped but, then again, to produce good and innovative games out of it was the point (in which SOA failed miserably), not to impress popstars (they succeeded here, yahoo!!!).

Wrong. Myst came out like 6 months earlier on Mac and it looked and played much better. A huge success produced by a, then, very small company with no huge hit Hollywood license like Jurassic Park nor a 10 million stupid studio full of jerks.
Myst scenes have much better transition, the CG scenes look much more impressive than those Sega expensive dinosaurs and the gameplay is way deeper in comparison. Again, released earlier and with much less resources.

Do Myst and Seventh guest play like an interactive encyclopedia showing long extinct animals in a setting based on a blockbuster movie? Of course they don't. I was only saying that nobody was making the kind of game Jurassic Park CD is, instead what we got was platformers and shooters and whatever the hell that 3DO game is.



That wasn't really an achievement. Jurassic Park on the Sega CD wasn't anything special when it was released. Let's have a look at EGM's quote about the game:
"This is one of those point and click games that I don't get into very much. I think those games should stay for the computer. Although there are some action sequences, I just found the pace of the game too slow."
- Al Manuel, EGM March 1994

Let's see what EGM had previously published (March 1993) about the Sega Multimedia Studio:
"... What do you get when you invest millions of dollars into a multi-media studio to produce CD games, put the Sega-name on the door and then wait almost a year? Nothing!"


Yup, Scot Bayless also commented on this:


The SOA internal studio (which was distinct from STI) was organized under Tom to do the Sega CD version of Jurassic Park which Sega licensed non-exclusively from Universal. The entire studio was focused on that product, and the original plan was to make it one of SOA’s tentpole launch titles for Sega CD. So, no, the studio wasn’t purely technical; it was a fully staffed development team, and a big one at that. The ambition of that team and the Jurassic Park title was huge, and money seemed to be no object. The animators were using Silicon Graphics workstations running Softimage 1.0 and sporting 1gb optical drives that priced at something like $20K per station. People were taking scouting trips to Spielberg’s location shoots in Hawaii, renting steadicams and running them around in the jungle… pretty crazy stuff.
After Jurassic Park, the internal studio never really got traction on their next big thing. There was quite a bit of experimentation, but nothing really took root. And then 32X hit, which siphoned off a bunch of people’s time, followed by Saturn. By then it was pretty clear that SOA was going to have to shrink, and I think they broke up the studio.



It seems to me that the entire development time of Jurassic Park CD went right through the early multi-media buzz and subsequent fall out. It definitely ran into the market slump and Sega's lost year on year revenue that led to the creation of the 32X. Bayless' first hand account also changes the "studio" into a game developer by the time it was shut down.



The whole game was a great effort IMO, as the previous Game Arts releases for the Sega CD. Again, small company back then with no 10 million studio (http://www.sega-16.com/2011/08/developers-den-game-arts/).


So, what, Game Arts did all of its recording in a basement on personal computers? Who did the english voice acting in Wing Commander for Sega CD? The manual says:


Sega CD Game Credits
Sega CD version developed by Game Arts
Producer............................Alan Gardner
Package Design...................Al Carnley, Jennifer Davis, Craig Miller
Documentation Design..........Jennifer Davis
Documentation and Editing.....Tuesday Frase, David Ladyman
Q.A. Project Leader..............Alvaro Moreno
Quality Assurance................Mark Franz


Clear as mud, but I would guess that Game Arts didn't do the English voice acting.



You're using the absurd as fact, that's no my fault.

It's absurd to consider the facts then?



Games like Lost Eden and The Daedalus Encounter certainly didn't cost 10 millions bucks to the 3DO or any other company and were far much better, interesting and "innovative" than Jurassic Park on the Sega CD, to not talk about Willy Woody.
Not on the 3DO, but another good example, 7th Guest was also very successful and much better game than JP with "Most of the footage for the game was filmed with a US$35,000 budget, Super VHS cameras, and blue butcher paper as a background that would later be removed to help insert the actors in the game, a process called chromakey, or bluescreen.".

Bill Gates called The 7th Guest "the new standard in interactive entertainment."[1] If not for the popularity of The 7th Guest and Myst, a similar-styled adventure game, the CD-ROM would not have been as popular and would have taken longer to gain a foothold in the marketplace.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobyte)
Myst and The 7th Guest, both games developed by small companies with small budget. No, really no need of jerk gigantic 10 million bucks studio to make anything good with a CD-ROM. And, again, those two games had a much more important contribution to the industry than the Sega's Multimedia Dumb Studio.

Mansion of Hidden Souls on the very same Sega CD is a more interesting and deep point-and-click adventure than Jurassic Park IMO, released months earlier with mouse support and which also didn't need any 10 million multimedia studio to be made.

You are getting hung up on the fact that you don't like the one game SoA's internal multimedia studio made and missing the point of the discussion. I never said nor implied that without Sega multimedia never would have existed, that is absurd and completely off from what I have been saying. That is why I brought Konami into the discussion as well, if I knew of more multimedia studios being created for the PCE CD and Sega CD I'd list them as well. Game Arts and Origin and Digital Pictures and American Laser Games and whoever else were obviously also pioneers of multimedia games and multimedia in games.

As for Jurassic Park CD, I am not talking about the gameplay, I am talking about the resources required to digitize everything that is on that disk and turn it into a game. It doesn't matter that Sam N Max, Leisure Suit Larry or Shadowgate are more amusing point and click adventures. I didn't say Sega's multimedia studios made great games and nobody else did, I said that they were very influential to the industry and helped the industry with experience and resources to ramp up for the eventual CD-ROM takeover.



Your SOA-like saying that the game companies weren't ready to make good use of the CD (You said: "That's how early the Sega CD was for the industry.").

That's another SOA CEOs' cheapo lie, they say it just trying to hide their incompetence in bring good games to the platform.
You know that SOA did something really wrong when you get games like Snatcher, The Space Adventure and Road Avenger constantly mentioned as some of best games on the system.

Road Avenger is a 1985 game, Snatcher is actually 1988's, Cobra Kuroryuuou no Densetsu is from 1989, Cobra II: Densetsu no Otoko (Space Adventure) is from 1991... Games like J.B. Harold Murder Club (1990) or Cosmic Fantasy: Bouken Shounen Yuu (1990) on the PCE CD did make some good use of the CD medium despite the rudimentary tools available. And there are several more examples if you look at the FM Towns library... All those games were already there when the Mega CD was released in Japan in late 1991!
For the western side of things, there were several good point-and-click games or early CG-based FMV games which were never released on the system. Games that maybe aren't great but certainly much better than any ALG offer or Digital Pictures crappy production. And, heck, a bit later some of those games were ported to systems like 3DO and CD-i with positive reviews...
So, no, it's not like the industry wasn't ready for the Sega CD. It was Sega, both SOA and SOJ, which wasn't ready to properly build a good library for a CD-based system.


Okay, well, Olaf Olaffson wasn't influenced by the Sega CD at all then, he and Kalinske didn't talk about its merits and weaknesses and muse about what a next generation multimedia machine should look like. Sony Imagesoft didn't cut its teeth multimedia development Sega CD. I am a fool, stupid too.



However, Sony had acquired them still in 1993.

It does brought a lot of "know-how" to Sony in many gaming-related business aspects.

The problem is that your "point" is all based in your very own belief in Sega's official words about their studio objectives and relevance. OTOH, there's no non-Sega source pointing that POS studio as relevant to any extent of the gaming history.


Okay, so Sony and Psygnosis were gaming wizards and Sega never influenced anybody.



So, to invest in poorly recorded and atrociously directed '80s B-movies as "games" was one of the Sega's creative moves? Thanks, I think I'll pass that one.

That's pure fanboysm talking. Look at the very same magazines you love to use to defend the 32X or any other "creative" move from Sega...
Things Sega spent money during its "glorious" times:
-Dumb useless multimedia studio.
-Non-liar and totally scientific-based Blast Processing campaign.
-Revolutionary activator controller development and marketing campaign.
-Angry black guy Sega CD Ad.
-6 month short-lived 40X times powerful 32-bit add-on whose most of lifespan was dedicated to sluggish half-assed ports of 16-bit games.
-Single-game ever used ultra-revolutionary SVP technology.

Sorry, I don't care about those "new games".
Anyway, looks like Sega had a lot of money to toss, so I really find it hard to blame the all-evil and demoniac Sony for draining all Sega resources with its "anti-competitive" attitude.


Okay, so Sony's presence in the industry was entirely positive and Sega just blew its own brains out. End of story.



That's a very biased way to see things IMO.


Is it or is it not a fact that most of the Playstation library was released from 1998 onward? I'm not dismissing these games by contextualizing them.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 01:10 PM
And it ain't a fact because you say so about that. It wasn't expensive to me or my friends from my experience. I'm not going to sit here and say it was or wasn't for MOST people because I said everyones experience is different. I had a job though, and anything left over after rent went to stuff like that. $139 expensive ? Subjective imo.

For a CD Burner $139 was expensive. Even now that I have a job making decent money I wouldn't consider paying that much for a similar device. I consider the price point for where something like that becomes affordable to the masses and not a luxury to enthusiasts or people with more money than sense to be around the $50 range. And when CD Burners hit that range, that's when we saw an explosive growth of piracy.



I bet it did increase by 2002. But only 14% of people had cd burners in 1999 ? Link ? And was that reality ? More like estimations. And those aren't facts.

It comes from a Survey the Recording Industry did, which is mentioned here:
http://www.bricklin.com/recordsales.htm



I'm just explaining my experience and my friends, I said everyones experience is different, but I doubt it was actually 14%. And internet piracy was a norm concern in the music industry then, internet audio burned to cd-r, was a fact :

"However, the late 1990s and early 2000s saw an increase in the free trading of digital bootlegs, sharply decreasing the demand for and profitability of physical bootlegs. The rise of standard audio file formats such as MP3 and FLAC, combined with the ability to share files between computers via e-mail, FTP, instant messaging, and specialized peer-to-peer file sharing networks such as Napster (now defunct as p2p), Limewire, Soulseek and BitTorrent, made it simpler than ever for bootleg collectors to exchange rarities. Older analog recordings were converted to digital format for the first time, tracks from bootleg CDs were ripped to computer hard disks, and new material was created with digital recording of various types, and all of these types could now be easily shared. The quality and portability of recording devices and microphones also increased exponentially, resulting in recordings which were often on a par with official releases. One notable change caused by this shift in technology was the unit of exchange: instead of album-length collections or live recordings of entire shows, fans often now had the option of searching for and downloading bootlegs of individual songs.[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleg_recording

If you think that wiki link is unreliable, look for similar info on other sites. Here is a good study during early 1999 to early 2000.

http://www.ifpi.org/content/library/Piracy2000.pdf

http://www.thesituation.co.uk/features/napster/napster.html

Oh I'm not debating music piracy wasn't an issue, but just because a lot of people were downloading music illegally doesn't mean they were all burning it to CDs. That's the difference between music piracy and game piracy. Game Piracy requires you to burn the game to a disc. Music Piracy doesn't.



And I personally remember VCD pirating was out of control in late 90s in Asia, my brother sent me VCD movies to play on my Saturn using my VCD mpeg player (VCDs didn't hurt my Saturn either) :

http://www.computerdjsummit.com/members/documents/piracy.html


VCDs shouldn't damage your Saturn, the thing is supposed to be able to read them after all. That's what the MPEG card is for. And VCD Pirating in Asia is quite different. That's not the same as personal Video Game Piracy.



I was going to post a link to DC laser discussion, I don't think I mentioned posting a Swap Trick link that doesn't damage Saturn drive but here post 14 20 and more, I admit it is debatable :

http://segaxtreme.net/community/topic/10391-official-swap-trick-support-thread/

Only 1 person says they don't think it will damage it, and immediately after the person who made the guide called bullshit on it and stated it will cause damage over time. And I'm not going to bring up ever thread where people reported that it broke their drives. That would be a waste of my time. A simple google search brings up threads of people mentioning it though.




Yeah just like people saying a 32 x won't work in a cdx on forums while I was playing 32 x games on my 32x plugged in my cdx. I saw people saying it does, and some saying it don't about Saturn swap trick too.

Not the same thing at all. The CDX issue truly is a myth. The Swap Trick damaging your Saturn has evidence from people who have had it happen as well as the fact it's common sense it's not a good thing to do.




You put the cd in when other stops spinning after 1st cycle. If anything you slow it down AFTER it free spins before the next cycle. There is a proper and unproper way to do it. I never had any problems.

Yes, but it's still guess work at best, especially on a Model 2. There's no point in really doing it anymore especially since there's now modchips.


ugh, next time you open your mouth, look into the facts first.

the dreamcast wasn't hacked until in the late part of 2000, so of cours enfl 2k and 2k1 sold very well. did you see sales 2001 and onwards? HORRIBLE, sonic adventure 2 sold 15% of the original sonic adventure. the game was out for download 8 weeks(!!) before official release

And Sonic Adventure 2's low sales have nothing to do with the fact that it was released after the Dreamcast was already dead and buried correct? And last I checked the game actually sold well for being released after the Dreamcast was dead.


Close: Vancouver. But like I said, everywhere I went online, people in the U.S. talked about how widedpread PS1 and DC bootlegs were and lots of people sold them as well as PCE and Sega-CD cdrs on forums, eBay, Yahoo auctions, etc. When I browsed second hand stores in Washington state in the late 90's I also saw bootleg PSX games.

The one store I first saw cdr Saturn games at also did modchip service, but soon lots of stores sold discs burned to order from catalogs.

Well I lived near Chicago at the time and I honestly don't remember seeing any bootleg Saturn games. Heck it was hard enough finding official retail Saturn games in 1997/1998. And when the Dreamcast came along I lived in Central Pennsylvania and again I don't remember seeing people selling Dreamcast bootlegs in stores.

Black_Tiger
03-22-2013, 01:32 PM
That wouldn't surprise me. It seems as though almost all of Sega of America went with Peter Moore to the Xbox.



The PS2 was the worst hyped console of all time in my opinion. I have never seen a product promoted with such out and out lies before and everybody apparently buying into it at the same time (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/PS2success.htm), except maybe the N64. I can honestly see the PS1 as a game console, and probably the strongest game library of the 5th generation if imports are included. The PS2 I can't see as anything more than an electronic's giant's set top box and an over hyped under delivered one at that.

As for DVD, for whatever reason only Sony found the financial risk of including it in the stock system worthwhile that generation. Including it in the Dreamcast in 1998 would have killed the unit even faster due to the high cost (or greater losses per console).

Your article seems to agree with what I said, about the media running wild with typical marketing bs. It did stand out in contrast at the time, to how refreshingly honest Sega was during the Dreamcast era. But the PS2 hype by Sony still doesn't seem worse than N64 hype by Nintendo or in now in retrospect the PS3. Even back with the SNES, Nintendo promised Toy Story visuals with games using the exact same technology as the film. Let alone their ads about Killer Instinct displaying 512 colors at once and the SNES running Sonic as-is plus scaling sprites to fill the screen.

During the first year of PS2 I saw lots of people buying them at the till, but never with any games. But half the time they bought the Matrix on dvd to go with it. Like I said, dropping the modem that the masses didn't care about and sparing the cost of Sega.net to offset the cost of a dvd drive and not having your games sold for a few bucks on the street before they reach retail, within months of the console launch, couldn't do more damage than good. If you're not making large profits on hardware, what good is losing most of your software sales to piracy? I literally have never seen a console's games bootlegged as quickly and massively in the history of video games.

sheath
03-22-2013, 01:36 PM
I started building my own PCs in 1998 and I am fairly certain that I had a CDR for the entire Dreamcast lifetime. I always aimed for paying less than $80 per component when I built a PC, I know I never paid more than that for an optical drive or hard drive.

gamevet
03-22-2013, 01:59 PM
I was playing laser disc games in the arcades long before the Sega CD or Myst existed. Sega's multimedia studio did very little to push CD technology forward.

sheath
03-22-2013, 02:10 PM
I was playing laser disc games in the arcades long before the Sega CD or Myst existed. Sega's multimedia studio did very little to push CD technology forward.

I was playing Model 1, Model 2 and Model 3 games in the Arcades before I ever played a Playstation 1 or 2. Playstation did very little to push optical disks or 3D gaming forward.

Also, Jurassic Park and Terminator 2 the movies used superior CGI than anything a game console ever did in the 90s. 90s game consoles, games, and game developers did very little to push forward CGI technology. Also, Jurassic Park and Terminator 2 were bigger financial successes than any game from the time, so making games in the 90s was stupid and retarded.

gamevet
03-22-2013, 02:16 PM
I was playing 3D arcade games in the 80s. Model 1,2 and 3 did very little to push 3D forward.

TRON used 3D CGI in the 80s and pushed forward the use of computer graphics in film. Bad comparison.

sheath
03-22-2013, 02:22 PM
Gasp, making games in the 80s was stupid too!

gamevet
03-22-2013, 02:24 PM
It didn't require 10 million dollar studios.

sheath
03-22-2013, 02:27 PM
It didn't require 10 million dollar studios.

Nope, just expensive test markets, exclusive licensing contracts and strong arm tactics against retailers who wanted to carry more than one similar product. Atari, Warner, Sega, and Tonka's failure to dominate the market in the late 80s is proof. Making games in the 80s and 90s, at all, at any expense, was a waste of time because people lost money.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 02:30 PM
For a CD Burner $139 was expensive. Even now that I have a job making decent money I wouldn't consider paying that much for a similar device.

Okay. But you said 3 times it was expensive (keep in mind mine was a top of the line internal cd burner then and other were cheaper) and I said 3 times it wasn't. Again, opinions. We should let people reading our back and forths weigh in.


I consider the price point for where something like that becomes affordable to the masses and not a luxury to enthusiasts or people with more money than sense to be around the $50 range. And when CD Burners hit that range, that's when we saw an explosive growth of piracy.

Agreed when it got cheaper it got more accessible for various piracy but everyone I knew had one and we lived check to check. Wasn't a luxury to have a internal cd burner for a pc in 1999 imo.


It comes from a Survey the Recording Industry did, which is mentioned here:
http://www.bricklin.com/recordsales.htm

Oh I'm not debating music piracy wasn't an issue, but just because a lot of people were downloading music illegally doesn't mean
they were all burning it to CDs.


Not all, but I said everyone I knew did. Was it more common later, yes, but it was still common then in my area (not rich or avg by far).


That's the difference between music piracy and game piracy. Game Piracy requires you to burn the game to a disc. Music Piracy doesn't.

I agree with that premise, but we were discussing bootleg cd-r games, and to play a bootleg Saturn game it had to be on cd-r, which it was then.


VCDs shouldn't damage your Saturn, the thing is supposed to be able to read them after all. That's what the MPEG card is for. And VCD Pirating in Asia is quite different. That's not the same as personal Video Game Piracy.


I only brought that up because I was playing bootleg cdr (bootleg) vcds then (as we were discussing industry piracy at the time) when my brother from Asia sent them to me, along with me playing bootleg cd-r games. I still like playing vcds in my Saturn and we both know about the various mpeg/vcd/jpeg card which is cool.


Only 1 person says they don't think it will damage it, and immediately after the person who made the guide called bullshit on it and stated it will cause damage over time.


It was more than 1 person, again, post 14 and 20 (and the guy in post 27 is correct in his method) like I said :

http://segaxtreme.net/community/topic/10391-official-swap-trick-support-thread/

It's debated. But let me say something, even putting a retail game in over time sinks the drive, there are youtube videos explaining that and how to raise it back up by 1mm. So yes even playing retail games by pressing cd onto drive is a risk to sink or wear drive unit (yet it might not happen to all) over time (which is different for everyone habits because there are variables to that), just as an unpropper swap trick could risk wearing you drive over time. However I have never met anyone who had their Saturn damaged doing swap trick from late 90s even up until now.


And I'm not going to bring up ever thread where people reported that it broke their drives. That would be a waste of my time. A simple google search brings up threads of people mentioning it though.


And a simple google search would bring up b.s. threads of people mentioning 32 x doesn't work in cdx, that was my point on that. Since me or nobody I know ever had that happen, I can't speak on everyones experience but about cdx myth that is proof there are masses of people who are just full of b.s online about things.


Not the same thing at all. The CDX issue truly is a myth. The Swap Trick damaging your Saturn has evidence from people who have had it happen as well as the fact it's common sense it's not a good thing to do.

I never saw any evidence. It's a fact and common sense to me and my friends it hasn't and doesn't affect our Saturns. Then again, we do it properly, which is another key point. Again, look at the mass amount of info about that cdx myth, that doesn't mean it's true, as you know.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 02:37 PM
I'm pretty sure a few people over at SegaSaturn.co.uk have mentioned it damaging their drives. Sure if you perfectly do it you limit the risk, but perfectly doing it is rather difficult. On a model 1 it's easier, but on a Model 2 it's pretty much guess work. And that kind of inaccuracy is what leads to the damage.

sheath
03-22-2013, 02:49 PM
I would suspect that bad burns would wear the laser out faster than disk swapping would do anything at all.

gamevet
03-22-2013, 02:51 PM
Nope, just expensive test markets, exclusive licensing contracts and strong arm tactics against retailers who wanted to carry more than one similar product. Atari, Warner, Sega, and Tonka's failure to dominate the market in the late 80s is proof. Making games in the 80s and 90s, at all, at any expense, was a waste of time because people lost money.

The point is that Sega spent $10 million on a studio for games, for a userbase that was never going to be huge. Myst, 7th Guest, Dragon's Lair and even Mad Dog McCree didn't require that kind of expenditure to create those games. Blair Witch didn't even require $100,000 to make.

The $10 million is just one of many wasted expenses that Sega didn't need. Where were the bean counters at?


Piracy didn't kill the Dreamcast. Sega already being broke when they launched the console is why they had to quit making hardware.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 02:52 PM
I would suspect that bad burns would wear the laser out faster than disk swapping would do anything at all.

The swap trick on the Saturn involves removing the disc while it's still moving and being read. It's not like a boot disc where it properly instructs the drive to stop before swapping.

bultje112
03-22-2013, 02:56 PM
true but I've never heard or experiences first hand how it destroyed my laser or disc motor, or whatever. besides saturn has got to be the most quality (cd) hardware console I know

sheath
03-22-2013, 02:58 PM
The point is that Sega spent $10 million on a studio for games, for a userbase that was never going to be huge. Myst, 7th Guest, Dragon's Lair and even Mad Dog McCree didn't require that kind of expenditure to create those games. Blair Witch didn't even require $100,000 to make.

The $10 million is just one of many wasted expenses that Sega didn't need. Where were the bean counters at?

Piracy didn't kill the Dreamcast. Sega already being broke when they launched the console is why they had to quit making hardware.

I see that you are very convinced that this line of thinking is true. But you are running every and any counter arguments to the absurd to hold onto the narrative that Sega just threw its money away.

Did Sega of America *need* a state of the art multimedia studio? Probably not. Would having such a thing make localization, recording, digitization and any other sort of game development related task easier for Sega of America? Probably so. Why is this such a contest? Because some of us are absolutely obsessed with what the "winner" did and can't stand second or third place.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 03:05 PM
I'm pretty sure a few people over at SegaSaturn.co.uk have mentioned it damaging their drives. Sure if you perfectly do it you limit the risk, but perfectly doing it is rather difficult. On a model 1 it's easier, but on a Model 2 it's pretty much guess work. And that kind of inaccuracy is what leads to the damage.

I basically agree but just mentioning stuff doesn't hold a lot of weight for me esp since people mentioned a 32 x won't work in cdx in mass. Okay but there have been Saturn Swap Trick guides and threads and various posts on it since I been on internet, so it's their fault if they don't do the proper research on how to do it with the 2 models or perform the proper technique in the first place. Even in 1998 or 1999 I went to websites that hosted low quality mpegs showing how to do it between the 2 models and it's been on youtube for like over 6 years too https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sega+swap+trick&page=6 and search engines for like 14 years. Here are early guides or discussions but I saw earlier ones on web in late 90s.

http://www.consoledatabase.com/faq/segasaturn/segasaturnfaq.txt
http://www.gamefaqs.com/saturn/916393-saturn/faqs/10874
http://www.gamefaqs.com/saturn/916393-saturn/faqs/5307
http://www.theisonews.com/forums/index.php/topic,91023.0.html?PHPSESSID=jj6h9l3ruo036mpn2hb1r 1e5p5

Interesting guy even says try google for more info in 2002 ha

gamevet
03-22-2013, 03:09 PM
I see that you are very convinced that this line of thinking is true. But you are running every and any counter arguments to the absurd to hold onto the narrative that Sega just threw its money away.

When you come out broke, you did throw your money away.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 03:10 PM
true but I've never heard or experiences first hand how it destroyed my laser or disc motor, or whatever. besides saturn has got to be the most quality (cd) hardware console I know

It's not the laser that would be damaged. It's the motor and the moving parts. It's not something instant, it's a wear over time thing. If you only use the trick once a month or so it probably wont kill it. If you do it every day and play a lot of burned games each day, then you are seriously risking the longevity of the system.


I basically agree but just mentioning stuff doesn't hold a lot of weight for me esp since people mentioned a 32 x won't work in cdx in mass.

Will you quit bringing this up? The issues are quite different and unrelated. The CDX issue stems from it being mentioned in one of their manuals that they weren't guaranteed to work. The Swap Trick damage has been reported by people on forums over the years and is easily explained since you are stopping the disc while it's still being read.

sheath
03-22-2013, 03:13 PM
When you come out broke, you did throw your money away.

Uh huh. And when your competitors did everything in their non insubstantial power to make it impossible for you to turn a profit they had nothing to do with it right?

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 03:20 PM
The swap trick on the Saturn involves removing the disc while it's still moving and being read. It's not like a boot disc where it properly instructs the drive to stop before swapping.

What you are failing to mention is the disc is not being read then, it stops and spins freely after the initial read cycle, then you put cd-r in before 2nd cycle, which regardless if you performed a swap trick with cd-r or just put in a retail game to play the Saturn 2 cycles would occur anyway. It starts and stops twice. All you are doing if you do it right, is after it's first read and free spinning (no stress because only inertia is causing cd to spin after 1st cycle/read happens) take that cd out gently and put another cd-r in gently during it's non read in between 2 cycles time. If you do it lightly (not slamming shit in and pressing hard) or with right timing, everything is cool. Even people who have a heavy hand playing retail games only have had the drive get pushed down by 1mm "over time". And some haven't. It's all on how you do things.

"Today, 01:56 PM #150
bultje112
I've never heard or experiences first hand how it destroyed my laser or disc motor, or whatever. besides saturn has got to be the most quality (cd) hardware console I know".

Me either. In fact, who has here ?

jerry coeurl
03-22-2013, 03:20 PM
Uh huh. And when your competitors did everything in their non insubstantial power to make it impossible for you to turn a profit they had nothing to do with it right?


Next you're gonna tell me that it's Sony's fault that Sega spent 10 million dollars on a studio that only ever produced one game. Damn them and their anti-competitive ways! Sega didn't make any questionable business decisions at all. If not for Sony, why, Sega would still be in the hardware game, every software release would be an original ip, there'd be no hole in the ozone layer and the Dodo would have never gone extinct! I fie on them!

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 03:25 PM
Will you quit bringing this up? The issues are quite different and unrelated.


No because you still don't see the point. Just because masses of people mention stuff doesn't mean it's true. Both have people "mentioning it a lot on internet".


The CDX issue stems from it being mentioned in one of their manuals that they weren't guaranteed to work.


Yes because of FCC. I know.


The Swap Trick damage has been reported by people on forums over the years

See my first sentence in this post.


and is easily explained since you are stopping the disc while it's still being read.

Read post 156.

sheath
03-22-2013, 03:26 PM
Next you're gonna tell me that it's Sony's fault that Sega spent 10 million dollars on a studio that only ever produced one game. Damn them and their anti-competitive ways! Sega didn't make any questionable business decisions at all. If not for Sony, why, Sega would still be in the hardware game, every software release would be an original ip, there'd be no hole in the ozone layer and the Dodo would have never gone extinct! I fie on them!

Actually, I have only been defending the possibility that Sega did anything right at all in some of these "questionable" decisions. Apparently thinking about these decisions on this forum earns the ire of all. And I'm the biased one, hahah.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 03:26 PM
What you are failing to mention is the disc is not being read then, it stops and spins freely after the initial read cycle, then you put cd-r in before 2nd cycle, which regardless if you performed a swap trick with cd-r or just put in a retail game to play the Saturn 2 cycles would occur anyway. It starts and stops twice. All you are doing if you do it right, is after it's first read and free spinning (no stress because only inertia is causing cd to spin after 1st cycle/read happens) take that cd out gently and put another cd-r in gently during it's non read in between 2 cycles time. If you do it lightly (not slamming shit in and pressing hard) or with right timing, everything is cool. Even people who have a heavy hand playing retail games only have had the drive get pushed down by 1mm "over time". And some haven't. It's all on how you do things.


That's only if you can perfectly get it timed. Which as I said on a Model 2 system is pretty much guess work. Not to mention if you want your burned game to run properly you need to do 2 swaps instead of one like you are describing.


No because you still don't see the point. Just because masses of people mention stuff doesn't mean it's true. Both have people "mentioning it a lot on internet".


Sorry but if a decent amount of people report it's damaged their Saturn's I'm going to say it's certainly a possibility. Heck even on most guides about it mention the risk involved and that it will wear out the the drive over time.

gamevet
03-22-2013, 03:28 PM
Uh huh. And when your competitors did everything in their non insubstantial power to make it impossible for you to turn a profit they had nothing to do with it right?

Sega was losing money before they even got to the Saturn. Sony had nothing to do with that.

sheath
03-22-2013, 03:33 PM
Saga was losing money before they even got to the Saturn. Sony had nothing to do with that.

Nothing at all? The market slump hurt Sega more than Nintendo, and Sega pretty much pulled out all of the stops in 1994 to correct that. Then Sony announced its entry to the console market in mid to late 1993, replete with exaggerated theoretical specs that everybody agrees caused SoJ to "scramble" and revamp the Saturn.

What was Sega counting on by overmarketing the Genesis to break Nintendo's monopoly? It surely wasn't solid sales without overmarketing with their next generation system, that would be silly. Yeah, Sony had absolutely nothing to do with Sega losing money at all. Sony's Arcade boards being essentially Playstations with more RAM didn't contribute at all to the decline of the Arcade Industry either. That would be silly fanboyish thinking wouldn't it?

http://advancedriskology.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/linear-thinking1.png

Add an X and you have the world's greatest game controller button designations ever. Because Sony never made a mistake and covered it up by throwing cash at it.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 03:41 PM
I have heard certain games don't run correctly with 1 swap but all mine did and 1 game that they say won't is shown here and I only swap once too on model 1 and model 2 (shown here). This guy repeats (it ruins drive) too, to be fair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIqZBP-49hE

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 03:56 PM
I do remember doing 2 swaps for model 1 and 1 for model 2 but I remember doing a 1 swap on a model 1 if memory serves. Maybe I'll dig everything out and make a video on it one day and see if I can do it again.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 03:57 PM
The issue with it if I remember correctly is with games that use CD Audio. Basically during the first read it gets the track information and if your official games track info doesn't match or isn't close to your burned copy your CD audio won't play properly. For example it will play the wrong tracks at the wrong time, it wont play them at all, or they will cut off at the wrong time.

Out of curiosity how frequently did you use the swap trick?

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 03:57 PM
Okay cool.

gamevet
03-22-2013, 04:04 PM
Nothing at all? The market slump hurt Sega more than Nintendo, and Sega pretty much pulled out all of the stops in 1994 to correct that. Then Sony announced its entry to the console market in mid to late 1993, replete with exaggerated theoretical specs that everybody agrees caused SoJ to "scramble" and revamp the Saturn.

If Sega didn't waste their resources on extending the life of the Genesis, they would have been better financially to launch its replacement in 1993 (Japan) and 94 for the West.

Go ahead and blame Sony for making better hardware design in 1993. That's on Sega.



What was Sega counting on by overmarketing the Genesis to break Nintendo's monopoly? It surely wasn't solid sales without overmarketing with their next generation system, that would be silly. Yeah, Sony had absolutely nothing to do with Sega losing money at all. Sony's Arcade boards being essentially Playstations with more RAM didn't contribute at all to the decline of the Arcade Industry either. That would be silly fanboyish thinking wouldn't it?

http://advancedriskology.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/linear-thinking1.png

Add an X and you have the world's greatest game controller button designations ever. Because Sony never made a mistake and covered it up by throwing cash at it.

How terrible of Sony for partnering with Namco. They should be ashamed of themselves for such evil tactics.

bultje112
03-22-2013, 04:09 PM
sega didn't need to bring new hardware in 1993 or 1994. if they made one mistake it's that they brought the saturn too early, in 1996 the western market was still dominated by 16 bit

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 04:11 PM
Sony might end up just a 3rd party again like Sega one day or consoles might be extinct soon anyway. So Atari had their shine, Nintendo and Sega had their brightest in 90s (arguably), Sony and Micro ruled the last of it. Like arcades a new generation might say what's a console.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 04:14 PM
sega mistake it's that they brought the saturn too early

http://www.1up.com/news/day-history-sega-announces-surprise

"Kalinske announced that due to "high consumer demand," Sega would release the console earlier than planned. So early, in fact, that to the surprise of everyone in the audience, Kalinske said that it was literally in stores that day."

gamevet
03-22-2013, 04:26 PM
sega didn't need to bring new hardware in 1993 or 1994. if they made one mistake it's that they brought the saturn too early, in 1996 the western market was still dominated by 16 bit

The MD was 5 years old in Japan and not doing as we'll there. It would have been the perfect time to release the console there, get software established and then launched a year later in the West. Nintendo didn't have a problem with continued software sales on the SNES, after the N64 was launched in 96.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 04:27 PM
Honestly I think just waiting until Fall of 1995 would have been better. By that point they would have had much more solid software to launch with.

bultje112
03-22-2013, 04:29 PM
http://www.1up.com/news/day-history-sega-announces-surprise

"Kalinske announced that due to "high consumer demand," Sega would release the console earlier than planned. So early, in fact, that to the surprise of everyone in the audience, Kalinske said that it was literally in stores that day."


so? what is he supposed to say? yeah we now we can't compete with sony so out of pure desperation we are releasing it right now. saturn sold like 40,000 units in the first 6 months? the 32 bit business in 1995, was maybe 5-10% of the market, which is nothing. it took a full year for playsation 1 to sell 2 million units in north america(september 1996). dreamcast a system that failed sold that number in 3 months, snes did that in 3 months as well and that was a generation before, when business was even smaller

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 04:31 PM
Now I know the Saturn wasn't a massive success, but I'm pretty sure it sold more than 40k units in it's first 6 months.

gamevet
03-22-2013, 04:33 PM
Honestly I think just waiting until Fall of 1995 would have been better. By that point they would have had much more solid software to launch with.

They still would have fell into the same trap they had set upon themselves with the original Saturn design. Perhaps if they had the money they had wasted on add-ons and a portable Genesis, they could have afforded to redesign the console properly, to make it more affordable to manufacture.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 04:36 PM
so? what is he supposed to say? yeah we now we can't compete with sony so out of pure desperation we are releasing it right now. saturn sold like 40,000 units in the first 6 months? the 32 bit business in 1995, was maybe 5-10% of the market, which is nothing. it took a full year for playsation 1 to sell 2 million units in north america(september 1996). dreamcast a system that failed sold that number in 3 months, snes did that in 3 months as well and that was a generation before, when business was even smaller

Just posted it because you guys were bringing up Sega mistakes during that era, that was one. Nothing more, nothing less.

Generally, I like when big time Nintendo fans always say "the SNES never needed any add ons or upgrades and more than 1 power supply and this and that other crap look at that Sega mess (true it was a mess then)", yet they planned a cd-rom drive too but pissed off Philips and Sony more than once so it didn't release but was hyped as hell and many of their games had cheat chips. Maybe everyone didn't like the Genesis add ons, but at least they were delivered and there are great games for Genesis, Sega CD (few) and 32 x (few) just like the SNES had great games or at least even 2 good versions of the same game (looks at Final Fight SNES) ha.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2013, 04:40 PM
While the Saturn Design wasn't perfect, I don't think a massive redesign would have helped them financially as it would have caused problems on the development of launch titles. And as the PS2 proved, developers will develop for a hard to program system if enough people buy it. Having a stronger launch could have given them the push they needed to create that situation. Gamers wouldn't have cared about the Saturn's programming difficulty as long as the games didn't reflect any issues from it. If Sega launched in the US in fall of 1995 they could have launched with Virtua Fighter Remix instead of the original port which would have looked much better in comparison to Toshinden and Tekken. They could have launched with an improved version of Daytona and possibly had Sega Rally depending on when in the fall they launched. That would have looked better when compared to Ridge Racer. And they would have also had Virtua Fighter 2 and Virtua Cop on the Horizon which would have made them technically be in the launch window.

bultje112
03-22-2013, 04:42 PM
Now I know the Saturn wasn't a massive success, but I'm pretty sure it sold more than 40k units in it's first 6 months.

I put an ? there as I'm really not certain about that numberm but I know it was very low. something like 250,000 by the end of 1995, of which the most were sold during christmas

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 04:44 PM
I still can't understand how a company that basically ushered in 3D polygon hits like Virtua Fighter and Virtua Racing in Arcades couldn't see a year or 2 later how the Saturn should be 3D until the very last second they made it 2D and 3D more.

sheath
03-22-2013, 04:53 PM
I still can't understand how a company that basically ushered in 3D polygon hits like Virtua Fighter and Virtua Racing in Arcades couldn't see a year or 2 later how the Saturn should be 3D until the very last second they made it 2D and 3D more.

That's because they didn't. No "Saturn" design that was 2D only has ever surfaced in any way. Like all of Sega's decisions, being the losers they are, everybody has over scrutinized every rumor and painted the most absurd negative interpretations as fact. The Saturn was always going to be a 3D console, it's just a question of how powerful it was going to be.

-edit-

Back on topic, the Dreamcast rocked even though Sega (especially Sega of America, damn them!) never did anything right and was absolutely not creative in any way. Eh Comrades?!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPk9NDTn2LE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGt76tFdCzA

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 05:51 PM
That's because they didn't. No "Saturn" design that was 2D only has ever surfaced in any way. Like all of Sega's decisions, being the losers they are, everybody has over scrutinized every rumor and painted the most absurd negative interpretations as fact. The Saturn was always going to be a 3D console, it's just a question of how powerful it was going to be.


Well didn't they say 2D was still where it was going to be even though they made 3D hits in Arcade before to the point people were starting to copy them ? I mentioned the Saturn was 2D and 3D but they did improve it more just before release correct ? (3D part?). So was it once not powerful enough to do VF or VR because it was focused on being 2D mainly ? I'm trying to find out fact from rumor on this. Articles brings up what we both mentioned.

""Just a 2D system"

Another possible cause for the idea that the Saturn was primarily a 2D game system with moderate 3D capabilities is that there are quite a few 2D games that were made for it, in comparison to the PS1's library. Sony forced developers to make PS1 games exclusively 3D until some years after the Playstation's release. Combine the library differences with a couple of Industry rumors about the President of Sega of Japan deciding the architecture of the Saturn over a golf game with a buddy from Hitachi, and the same President "scrambling" to revamp the Saturn's 3D capabilities immediately after Sony publicized the PS1's specs (mind you, the 500k/1million specs, not the real ones) and you have a theory run wild with speculation that proponents will defend to their deaths. Because of this, and the fact that 3D gaming caught on and completely replaced 2D gaming in this generation, Sony has been credited as the company to bring gaming into 3D."

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/SATPScompare.htm

"Secondly, Sega was seemingly caught flat-footed by the industry's shift to 3D game design and polygonal graphics. The company had always pushed sprite-based design to its limit with innovations like the System 16 board and Super Scaler tech, yet somehow its engineers failed to foresee the industry's move to polygons. The Saturn's entire architecture was revamped late in development, with a second processor added in nearly the 11th hour to aid 3D rendering. The drawback was that this complex hardware made the system difficult to program for -- and Sega's decision to go with quadrilaterals instead of the triangles everyone else settled on made cross-platform development difficult."

http://www.1up.com/features/saturn-collectors-guide

kool kitty89
03-22-2013, 05:54 PM
For me, the Dreamcast will never be its own thing because it will always be the console that rivaled two Playstations at once and arguably beat them both and the N64 in the same timeframe.

Here is an old write up I did almost a decade ago (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/DCPScompare.htm) to kick off the thread.

Most casual gamer players who know about the Dreamcast know about it in name only, and seem to have completely failed to categorize it in any way. Several facts must be acknowledged before continuing to read the information on this comparison. The first and most important is that the Dreamcast was the first game console of the "128-bit" generation, or the "current generation" by 2006 standards. Secondarily but almost as important is the fact that the Playstation 2 was and is reputed to be the stand-alone greatest console of this generation. Finally, the perception of the PS2's absolute superiority leans heavily on hype, sales numbers and marketing, but it is important to note that crucial facts which Sony's hype depends on is demonstrably false. Knowing the Dreamcast and PS2's graphical and software advantages is an important thing, since the hype, game magazines, and Sony fans exclusively favor the PS2.
Before we get into tech stuff on this, I'm going to point out that marketing and general consumer perception (as well as overall success of a console) are rarely defined by the hardware whatsoever. It's far more up to software development resources (in-house/licensed/commissioned and 3rd party interest) as well as brand recognition/marketing/etc (PR related stuff), and of course good business management and distribution infrastructure. (those latter two things were Warner-Atari's biggest problems)

Hardware makes a difference, especially if it put a real limitation on programming/game quality (too weak and/or resource-intensive to develop for) and/or is unreasonably expensive, but most mainstream consoles released by competent companies don't fall into that category . . . and several that do only do so due to non-hardware related issues. (like 3DO's high price point) Even the PS2's programming difficulties were in large-part related to Sony not putting intensive R&D into putting out comprehensive libraries early on and not just the architecture of the system itself.

In those respects, there's absolutely nothing wrong with what Sony did . . . ALL companies push marketing BS and twist (and oversimplify) technical details to push PR. Most consumers can't understand the real difference anyway, hence why the real meat of the matter is how all that really impacts the end products. (ie real-world software performance) Sega is as guilty of this as anyone else, and mass-market success is generally defined by who manages to market/position their product the best. (money would obviously be a factor there too)

There's other things related to more shady business practices including various monopolistic/anticompetitive business practices. But AFIK, noone has ever pushed things on the level Nintendo had in the late 80s and early 90s ever again simply because there's far too much competition. (Atari tried to do what Nintendo did to some extent, but they failed when Activision opened the door to unlicensed publishing . . . I'm honestly not sure why that didn't happen with the Famicom in Japan)
The parallels to this on Sony's end are different . . . and I also wouldn't include mergers/buyouts in the same category as what Nintendo did. (except maybe the odd case of a company being bought out specifically to kill it -more examples of that in other parts of the software industry than gaming though, and lots of litigation involved in that sort of stuff too)

Sony had an influence on the market and they certainly drove the direction of games/genres to some extent, but encouraging certain games and providing incentives (positive feeback) are different than explicitly restricting developers in general like Nintendo did . . . and Sony never contractually locked 3rd party developers into their platforms. (so they had creative freedom to produce on platforms better suited to the games they wanted to make, or better versions of games -and that DID happen with quite a lot of games in the PS2 days)




The PS2, on the other hand enjoyed a full lifecycle as the lowest common denominator for the 128-bit generation of consoles. As late as 2005, Capcom was forced to drop the polygon counts of the PS2 port of Resident Evil 4 from the Gamecube to between 900k to 1.5 million polygons per second, at 30 frames per second, while the Gamecube original ran at nearly twice this polygon count. This means that the entire generation of game consoles was relatively close to the Dreamcast's specs. This is in opposition to the idea, propagated by the media, that the PS2, Xbox and Gamecube's games were running 2-4 times the polygon counts of the Dreamcast's max specs. So, it was actually only blind brand name following coupled with the masses buying into hype which caused the mass market to reject three consoles in favor of the PS2 exclusively. This is evidenced by the massive public choice for the PS2 being made clearly, before the Xbox and Gamecube even launched.

OK, disregarding marketing BS:
Polygon count is a HORRIBLE metric for 3D game quality. It says nothing about the non-static-visual complexity of the game engine (AI, physics, etc), and doesn't even say that much about actual graphics quality.

There's so many added effects (and varying quality/complexity therein) beyond raw polygon count that this sort of comparison really doesn't hold water in general. Plus, there's varying game design in general, and certain games that are complex enough that the Xbox might only have similar raw polygon performance in the range of average Dreamcast games, but only because that level of game was never produced on the Dreamcast. (ie DC couldn't handle it with similar quality and polygon rate) And that's not even getting into color depth or resolution. (though that's not that big of an issue since most 6th gen games were 480p or 480i . . . albeit some were 24 or 16-bit color rather than 32-bit)

A multi-platform benchmark with reasonable optimization for each (and support for the varying feature sets) would be the ideal comparison here, but even those are rather flawed. (look how often 3Dmark performance doesn't mesh with typical game performance -some CPUs and/or GPUs might beat others in benchmarks but not in actual games, especially in CPU performance comparisons . . . and that's even limiting things to a common system architecture constrained by PC standards)


Had the Dreamcast been more successful and remained on the market for the brunt of the 6th generation, I'm confident that the performance disparity would be quite obvious, as it generally is already between PS2, Xbox, and GC -and PC. (with a grain of salt taken for how much development resources/time were spent on any give game)
The PS2 should have been the closest to DC performance overall, especially considering the programming environments involved. (and particularly since the PS2's raw hardware feature set of the GPU didn't cater to some of the same visual quality of the others . . . there was a lot of resources put into raw polygon/vertex pushing power above visual quality and a lack of things like modern texture compression -primarily relying on traditional 4 and 8-bit paletted textures for "compression" vs the PVR and S3 texture compression on the others)

That's still oversimplifying things, and I don't have that deep of an understanding of the PS2's architecture overall, but I think that's fairly accurate.

Also, the difficulty of programming the PS2, again, isn't so much down to the raw architecture (it is in some ways though) but the programming environment. From what I've gathered, too little was supported out of the box by high level libraries/APIs (especially catering to standard 3D programming practices) and a ton was left up to developers to figure out on their own with raw hardware documentation. (so they'd have to build their own libraries and/or code directly at low-level)
It's somewhat like if Nintendo put out the N64 with no standard API or compilers and just documentation of the RSP/RDP. (except worse given the greater complexity of newer hardware and newer game design -the N64 was the first console design to be complex enough to really make 100% low-level programming generally unrealistic due to sheer architectural complexity)

And with the way mainstream Dreamcast game programming/software quality was going by 2000/2001, that system easily could have kept up with the PS2 (and quite possibly had consistently better looking games) for most of the generation, at least assuming the DC got roughly the level of support as the GC and Xbox, let alone more than that. (and also assuming Sony and 3rd parties took just as long to get reasonably well performing APIs put together for the PS2 . . . prior to that you'd have weaker libraries and/or intensive -and still often limited- low/lower-level programming -plus the different set of raw performance trade-offs between PS2 and DC even if both were pushed close to their theoretical potential)

But differences to GC and Xbox probably would have been roughly as obvious as with the PS2.

Black_Tiger
03-22-2013, 05:57 PM
Just posted it because you guys were bringing up Sega mistakes during that era, that was one. Nothing more, nothing less.

Generally, I like when big time Nintendo fans always say "the SNES never needed any add ons or upgrades and more than 1 power supply and this and that other crap look at that Sega mess (true it was a mess then)", yet they planned a cd-rom drive too but pissed off Philips and Sony more than once so it didn't release but was hyped as hell and many of their games had cheat chips. Maybe everyone didn't like the Genesis add ons, but at least they were delivered and there are great games for Genesis, Sega CD (few) and 32 x (few) just like the SNES had great games or at least even 2 good versions of the same game (looks at Final Fight SNES) ha.

The SNES shipped with addon upgrades from day one. They just bundled them with every copy of games that supported them and didn't give consumers the option of buying them separately. The SNES can't run games like Pilotwings or Super Mario Kart without addons.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 06:01 PM
The SNES shipped with addon upgrades from day one. They just bundled them with every copy of games that supported them and didn't give consumers the option of buying them separately. The SNES can't run games like Pilotwings or Super Mario Kart without addons.

Agreed that is why I mentioned cheat chips (as add ons) in my paragraph you quoted.

kool kitty89
03-22-2013, 06:09 PM
I don't know sheath. You're argument that everyone but Sega failed the Dreamcast seems pretty backwards to me. The PS2 may have been the favorite, but the DC wasn't a flop. I think it was at least as successful as the Gamecube in the two years it was released. I hear this "sega was out of money stuff", and everyone points to the dreamcast, but nobody ever mentions over budgeted, niche, pet projects like Shenmue. Maybe if Shenmue had never existed Sega wouldn't have canceled the Dreamcast?
Dreamcast was dropped because it's massive success (in sales volumes) was mainly limited to the US and Sega was bleeding money like crazy to support its marketing (and related price cuts, special Seganet deals, general infrastructure, software R&D, etc).

Remember, a company needs to be able to sustain a few years of net losses on a new console before profits have a chance to come in, and by 2001, Sega was either unable or unwilling to keep that up. (unwilling to take the risk or simply unable to secure the emergency investment funding it needed -since their arcade/entertainment/amusement divisions didn't make enough to support them and they didn't have cache reserve in the bank, seeking 3rd party funding was the only real option . . . that and maybe liquidating certain assets) Also remember Sega was already in debt at the time, though they managed to hide it until after the DC's cancellation.

Sega's situation was just problematic and unstable from all that happened (arcade/console/etc-wise) in the years leading up to the DC to support that. Plus there's the PR mess Sega had going into the DC (so MORE investment needed to overcome that). That and Sega still wasn't playing it smart with the DC. (many areas they could have been more conservative with spending -and should have been given their limited resources . . . the unbridled spending on SegaNet and unnecessary price cuts and rebates on DC immediately pop to mind, so does the pack-in modem)

Those funding issues also weren't helped by Sega dropping the handheld market. (which was one of Nintendo's saving graces in the long run . . . and a market where Sega had been the sole substantial challenger on the international market prior to the launch of the PSP -Game Gear had massive potential for challenging GB in the late 90s had Sega pushed for that -both in terms of cost/bulk reduced hardware with much better battery life and generally better software support as the aging GB became less and less attractive . . . unless Nintendo was driven to launch a successor sooner :p )






On the topic of whether the Dreamcast could manage Gamecube or Xbox quality graphics, this came up in the 6th generation thread (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?22176-Comparison-of-6th-generation-game-console-hardware&p=548086&viewfull=1#post548086). I see a number of ways to look at this question, but all of them boil down to what the games actually managed to pull off. There are demos that have the PS2 showing a single polygonal image at 17 million polygons per second and the Xbox doing something more in the 47 million range, but there are no games that even approach that low end. A Pentium III 500Mhz and a Riva TNT AGP card maxes out at 2.5 Million polygons per second with one light source in 3D Mark 2000. A Riva TNT 2 would obviously do better, but at the time the difference between tile based renderers and hardware T&L was still undecided. The SH4 is undoubtedly more capable (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?22176-Comparison-of-6th-generation-game-console-hardware&p=537278&viewfull=1#post537278) of polygon throughput than the Pentium III.

So once again we need games to be optimized for the GPU to take advantage of either system. With 64MB of RAM and the Nvidia GPU including hardware T&L, the Xbox should handily be ahead in every technical area though.
I'm pretty sure the SSE unit in the Pentium III could outstrip the SH4's vector unit at those clock speeds . . . perhaps not clock for clock, but by 500 MHz it should more than make up the difference. Also remember that polygon performance isn't solely limited by geomentry and T&L performance, those are just the hard limits on max polygon output. Remember how skewed the PSX's GTE's vertex performance is without context of actual GPU bottlenecks? Same thing for this comparison. (well that, and you've also got to consider contention of other CPU/bus intensive tasks that would restrict vertex computation performance . . . same for the GTE on the PS1 for that matter -it shares the CPU bus)

Go ahead and run a DirectX5 or 6 behncmark (no hardware vertex/T&L support -like 3DMark99 or Final Reality) on a relatively modern GPU (like a Geforce 4) and you'll find the real bottlenecks of those older CPUs.

Even if the Xbox didn't have hardware T&L (but similar performance in all other respects) it still should have been considerably more powerful than the DC or PS2 . . . perhaps not GC. (unless you remove T&L there too)





I wonder why Sega didn't releases the DC in the US and Europe first rather than releasing it in Japan. The Saturn was still fairing pretty well in Japan while it was dead here and in Europe. And the US and Europe had always been more receptive to Sega than Japan ever has. Look at how the Japanese treated the launch of the DC it sure paled in comparison to the Saturn. While in the US and Europe it took off. I can see why Sony and Nintendo would release shit in Japan first but not Sega.
It's called pride. It wasn't until the bitter end that SOJ let pride go and pushed their chips towards the western market.
What are you talking about?

Launching in Japan made perfect sense . . . a good test market and more viable market when software, system pricing, and volumes would be otherwise inadequate. Nothing exclusively about pride. (plus, on paper, the Saturn's success in Japan should have meant the DC had the best chance there . . . which didn't happen obviously) The 1999 launch was nearly perfect . . . the hole on the market leading up to that was a separate problem though. (they should have kept the Saturn supported better in the interim)

Black_Tiger
03-22-2013, 06:29 PM
Agreed that is why I mentioned cheat chips (as add ons) in my paragraph you quoted.

Lol, missed the "cheat chips" part. :p But as much as the business side of chips-on-cart vs external addons can be debated, the fact remains that several of the games most championed by Nintendo (at the cost of other consoles) fans cannot be run on SNES hardware. Whats crazy is how often those critical of non-Nintendo addons will still defend the N64 ram pak, even while saying that Saturn ram cart games don't count.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 06:39 PM
Lol, missed the "cheat chips" part. :p

No problem.


But as much as the business side of chips-on-cart vs external addons can be debated, the fact remains that several of the games most championed by Nintendo (at the cost of other consoles) fans cannot be run on SNES hardware. Whats crazy is how often those critical of non-Nintendo addons will still defend the N64 ram pak, even while saying that Saturn ram cart games don't count.

Agree.

kool kitty89
03-22-2013, 06:43 PM
There are many people who really care about the N64 ? It had Mario 3D, 007, Zelda...and sequels that were going to be on SNES but put on N64 just with 64 slapped on it. The N64 is steps up from Jaguar but that is it. Playstation owned the 32 bit and 64 bit generation. For all the people who get a laugh at Sega CD, 32 x and Saturn I get a laugh out of Virtua Boy, N64 and GameCube (maybe add WiiU, the DC Jr). And you know what, I know Game Boy (GB Color and every GB model ever made) has records, but Atari Lynx was scheduled to release in 1987 and it was light years beyond the Game Boy which looked like a Tiger Electronics unit compared to it. Not sure what a N64 has to do with DC generation anyway. DC > N64 and GameCube combined imo.
Technically speaking, the N64 was the most powerful system of its generation by far . . . it was just restricted by Nintendo's business decisions (including hardware documentation and 3rd party licensing models) and the use of carts instead of CDs or a similar propriety optical format (DD was a crap idea . . . something more like GDROM -even without the capacity, but just the propretary/secure format- would have been ideal). But the cart issue really feeds into Nintendo's business model in general. (all one shared problem . . . unlike Sega's mosaic of varying issues :p )
Even so, a handful of games really show that power as well, in spite of the limits. (most of those games are also upwards of 32 MB carts, so that's obviously a factor too :p )

Also, no N64 games were "going to be on SNES" . . . a handful had ideas pulled from early 3D concepts on the SNES, but no games were directly related.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 07:23 PM
Technically speaking, the N64 was the most powerful system of its generation by far

I don't consider the N64 (64 bit) in the Dreamcasts generation (128 bit) and not sure why it was even brought up tbh. I'm not saying it wasn't the most powerful of it's 32/64 bit generation (My steps up from Jaguar comment was harsh yes) but nothing really mattered besides PlayStation in the generation (in USA) in the publics eye is what I meant. Everyone I knew who bought a N64, got bored with it quick and still played PS1 more anyway.

PS1 owned. Anything else didn't really matter here. N64 and Gamecube like the WiiU are backburners. Sure N64 sold more than Saturn, but PS1 ruled. Dreamcast was a great console imo for 128 bit generation but PS2 ruled that too. Wii (technically last generation now I guess) was a phenomenon (they should of payed that midway/dc controller guy for it's controller birth) but even though Wii is the leader now (where current sales charts ?) the N64 and Gamecube like the Saturn and DC, were under the Sony shadow from PS2 record sales then Xbox then GameCube then DC. Nobody cared about those 3rd and 4th machines for the most part. Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony now though, seem to be fading it seems.

Edit :

Wii, 360 and PS3 are cool but their time is over basically. Who basically cares a Wii U is out now or PS4 or 720 is coming ? People seem content with what they have (being it's nothing but clone games anyway). So it could have been a blessing for Sega (no matter all the reasons they got here) became a 3rd party in 2001. Now if Ouya or other things take off, they have a good step in being a 3rd party developer and been okay since 2001 for 2 generations or more now. Capcom seems dying, Konami has faded, I'm sure Sony could go back to 3rd Party and Nintendo could do good, but would Microsoft ? Atari USA is now it's own company and has money. I think Sega is in a okay place too. They just need better and more games. If in 5 years there are no traditional consoles, then almost everyone failed and everybody who once ruled will be standing next to each other bidding for fans attention as those companies reminisce on Atari 2600, Genesis, PS2, 360 and Wii once ruled but that is the past, like consoles themselves might be.

Forgot ad add, if somebody laughs at you for owning a Sega CD and starts rambling, just talk about this :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Nintendo-64DD-expansion.jpg/220px-Nintendo-64DD-expansion.jpg

Units sold 15,000

"The 64DD may be seen as the Nintendo 64 equivalent of the Atari Jaguar CD. Both are disc-based add-on consoles, announced in the weeks surrounding the launch of their base consoles. In both cases, the base consoles did not perform as well in the market as their publishers (Nintendo and Atari Corporation) had hoped, and the add-ons were ultimately released for only two reasons: to keep the promise of their release to gamers, and to recoup some of the money already spent on the consoles' development. Because of this, the consoles were both released in limited numbers and with little marketing, made available only in the publisher's home country, and supported for a very short time. Finally, both consoles were released with an unusually high amount of pack-in materials (the Jaguar CD was packed with two games, a soundtrack CD, and a demo disc). Though the 64DD does not have the failure rate the Atari Jaguar CD has."

If they talk about 32 x, bring up Virtual Boy (Units sold 770,000). If they bring up Saturn, bring up GameCube (Units sold Worldwide: 21.74 million).

stu
03-22-2013, 07:39 PM
Also, the difficulty of programming the PS2, again, isn't so much down to the raw architecture (it is in some ways though) but the programming environment. From what I've gathered, too little was supported out of the box by high level libraries/APIs (especially catering to standard 3D programming practices) and a ton was left up to developers to figure out on their own with raw hardware documentation. (so they'd have to build their own libraries and/or code directly at low-level)
It's somewhat like if Nintendo put out the N64 with no standard API or compilers and just documentation of the RSP/RDP. (except worse given the greater complexity of newer hardware and newer game design -the N64 was the first console design to be complex enough to really make 100% low-level programming generally unrealistic due to sheer architectural complexity)



IIRC The PS2's development environment was designed that way because they were getting a lot of requests from developers for a lot more low level access and a less high level C programming based environment. I seem to remember that with the original PlayStation Sony pretty much blocked any low level access and made the developers go through the APIs provided by Sony, mainly to aid the development process along. In an article called "Making the thin lady sing", published in an Edge special edition called "Equip - The insiders guide to Playstation 2" there was a section dealing with this:


According to Paul Holman at SCEE, one of the reasons for this initial bewilderment was that Sony's approach with respect to developer support was markedly different for PlayStation2. "When PSOne came out we provided a whole series of libraries and the expectation was developers would use them throughout." he says. European developers, in particular, demanded lower level access to the hardware. The result was, despite its obvious complexity, with Playstation2 Sony gave developers what it thought they wanted: fewer libraries but lots of detailed information about how the system worked.

It does go on to say that developers initially had a hard time with the PS2, but that some of the devs did get to grips with the system. I think Sony probably should of balanced the support more so that low and high level support was equal.

BTW If anyone wants to see the article I could scan it and attach it if this doesn't breach forum rules. What is the forum's policy on magazine scans? This magazine was fron 2003 so its about 10 years old now.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 07:49 PM
BTW If anyone wants to see the article I could scan it and attach it if this doesn't breach forum rules. What is the forum's policy on magazine scans? This magazine was fron 2003 so its about 10 years old now.

Upload it on tinypic, then post forum image link here, me and others do it all the time, here.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?14038-Review-of-Retro-Gamer-s-32X-quot-Retroinspection-quot/page55

stu
03-22-2013, 08:10 PM
OK Here are the scans, sorry if the image quality on the edges is a bit rough. I didn't want to bend the magazine too much ;)


Page 1

http://i46.tinypic.com/5lq81u.jpg

Page 2

http://i46.tinypic.com/1zd4t8z.jpg

Page 3

http://i47.tinypic.com/35a3wja.jpg

kool kitty89
03-22-2013, 08:38 PM
The problem is that the Genesis is the only time that Sega tried hard to actually appeal to Western audiences... with the Saturn and Dreamcast they just kind of let their developers do their thing, and focused mostly on Japan. Sega's games got weirder and more unique, and that often resulted in some great games, but it came at a big cost in their Western support. The conflict between Sega of Japan wanting Japanese success, versus the things that they should have done to try to hold on to some of their Western base, is an obvious one... is it really American or European consumers' fault that they didn't want to get Saturns or Dreamcasts, when it's Sega that designed those systems for a different market, made lots of games that weren't interesting to audiences here, and did little to try to hold on to all of that marketshare and audience they'd grabbed with the Genesis? I don't really think that consumers can, or should, be blamed for that one!
That and the only console they consistently got mass marketing and business management right. I'll argue the did push more for western stuff with the DC too, at very least with the resurgence of Sega Sports (one of the defining features of the Genesis's success in North America).

But with what happened to a fair chunk of Sega's 2nd/3rd party collaborative developers from the early/mid 90s along with the state of the internal western R&D studios during 1996-1998 meant they'd have to start rebuilding some of that again with the DC in general.

On the software end of things, Sega WAS still pushing for the sort of development they'd had on the MD and MCD with the Saturn (in terms of 1st/2nd/3rd party development in western studios), but there was the whole mess of the transitional period, Sega's general financial problems, and the huge issue of what happened to internal development in late '96 and early 97 with the Saturn effectively killed off in general. (with several western game projects cancelled and Sega's internal development resources heavily scaled back to cut costs)
Sega pulled the Saturn before it really had a chance to do many of those things . . . it probably never would have been a stand-out success given the state of things by late 1996 (ie right after Kalinske -among others- left), but with reasonable management still focusing on promotion and market stability with the Saturn (at least in the interim -until late 1999) it at least would have had more of a chance. (at very least it could have made for reasonable damage control of the whole situation and lead into a much healthier transition to Dreamcast)
Seriously, it wasn't even until 1997 that some of the Saturn's best games even got released (especially 3rd party stuff), and even more got way scaled back or cancelled due to Stolar's management decisions.

There were the critical problems in marketing/market positioning and planning (and some related management issues) hurting things too.


Much like with the Turbografx, Jaguar, and 3DO before it, the Dreamcasts' early release date left it struggling graphically once the other, better-looking consoles released. All of those four systems I just listed are often accused of having games that sometimes look "last-gen". Yes, they're all "next-gen" machines, but they are well behind the other systems of the generation, and it's pretty easy to tell that when you look at the games. Lots of TG16 games look like enhanced NES titles, lots of Jaguar games look like SNES games, and lots of Dreamcast games look like enhanced PS1/N64 stuff. So yeah, I somewhat disagree with you on this point. The DC is certainly next generation, and some games show off that fact, but many do not. This is a problem that doesn't exist on the Gamecube or Xbox, that's for sure. The PS2 does have that issue, but by the middle of its life it had mostly left it behind.
DC games were generally similar to contemporary PC games too, so take that either way. ;) Games were going to change as time went on in general . . . 1999/2000 N64/PSX games looked more like 1999/2000 PC/DC games (and often were multiplat games thereof) than 1996 N64/PSX games and that makes perfect sense. ;)

Then there's some games that clearly are really in another league on PC/DC at that time . . . and more that easily could have been. (and, on that note, Unreal REALLY should have been on the DC . . . and could have been a 1999 release too given UT -which used the same game engine)

Likewise, late gen NES (or SMS for that matter) games also progressed far beyond earlier games, and the same would apply to early PCE games and even MD games for that matter. (or computer games)

The industry tends to progress in general across multiple platforms (console, computer, arcade) with varying degrees of that manifesting on all supported platforms of the time. (some more hardware-limited than others)




I was agreeing with you until this last point... what, 1993? Why in the world would that have been a good idea? I mean, the complete failures of every system released in 1993 -- that is, the Fujitsu FM Towns Marty, the Amiga CD32, the Jaguar, and the 3DO -- proves, I would say, that the mass market wasn't interested in a new system in 1993, or 1994 for that matter. It wasn't until 1995 that Japan really got interested in the next generation, and really 1996 for the US. Europe I don't know, maybe even later? No, I still think that Sega's problem was that they thought another addon or early launch were needed, when they weren't. Sega would have been better off sticking with just the Genesis and Sega CD until maybe late 1995-mid 1996 for a new console launch. Maybe late 1995 for Japan, mid '96 for the US. That'd be fine. And of course, it should have been something better (easier to program for and more powerful) than the Saturn is. Sony only stayed ahead all generation (above Nintendo in the US, I mean) because the N64 slowed down after its first Christmas... PS1 sales that first year-plus were slow, it's just that Saturn sales were even slower. Sega would have been just fine with a 1996 release in the US, and by abandoning the wrong idea of a second addon, they'd lose fewer fans, too. I know that by 1995 the Genesis was dated, and Sega probably blamed that for why games like Comix Zone didn't sell as well as they'd hoped, but I think that part of the problem that year was that Sega was confusing everyone with too much hardware, not just that the Genesis was old.
There's extenuating circumstances for all those situations too, so there's nothing to say 1993 was an inherently bad year to launch a new platform . . . and technically the Jag didn't launch until '94 ('93 was a test market, and even for most of '94 widespread distribution was severely hampered -both in the US and Europe; just one of many problems Atari was having).

That said, I agree that '93 would NOT have been a good year for Sega to launch a new console, '94/95 made perfect sense in general in terms of actual launch dates. (actual planning and execution of that are other issues)
If anything, you could argue that '93 would have been a good time for Sega to introduce (reasonably low-cost) enhancement chips on carts. (though, honestly, they should have been doing that much earlier than that even) The MD cart slot has great support for expansion, and there should have been plenty of routes for relatively cheap/simple embedded hardware to be introduced to enhance game potential. (be it sound and/or graphics in a variety of possibilities)
The Sega CD already enhanced a number of things, obviously, but (even with better management/marketing) the MD was still going to be Sega's mainstream platform at the time. Hell, certain enhancement chips could allow cross-platform MCD/MD games that otherwise would be impractical. (and not only moving some MCD exclusives to cart conversions, but potentially attracting developers to do the reverse and increase the MCD library in general -of course, if they were willing to make the investment in development resources)

Actually, 1993 probably would have been a good year for NEC to launch a new console, even if they dropped back to just Japan. Still the PC-FX itself was a bit weak, but with an extra year head start (and especially including backwards compatibility) it would have had a better chance at least. (and the 3D accelerator module might have actually made it out) Whether they'd have had any chance outside Japan is a separate issue.


As for the Dreamcast, really, as I said, everything above aside, the #1 biggest thing Sega could have done is get a DVD player in the thing. Seriously, the DC as a DVD player would have been huge in 1998-2000! So many people, in both Japan and the West, bought PS2s to play DVDs... I know that a DC DVD player would have had to pay Sony for DVD license rights, but it'd have been worth it in how many more systems they'd have sold, I think.
HORRIBLE idea. It would have made the DC way too expensive. DVD drive costs on top of DVD video licensing in 1998/1999! Crazy. Even by 2001 it was an issue. (Sony of course, didn't have to deal with any of that overhead)

Also, I really think the PS2-DVD issue is WAY overinflated in terms of how much it boosted hardware sales and (more importantly) how it impacted game sales.

Even if Sega had been massively successful with the Saturn and had money to spare, that would have been a bad idea.


Yeah, agreed here. Sega did have those partnerships, and those games, in the Genesis era, but they really messed up by letting them go. Maybe there was nothing they could do, and Sony was just in better shape than Sega to capitalize on the changing market, but regardless, you're right.
Among other management decisions of that period, Sega probably should have paid close attention to the political/bureaucratic situations of its key 3rd party partners (particularly those it contracted to directly). If mergers or buy-outs (or potential thereof) threatened the working partnerships, it could have been wise to invest in actually (attempting to) bring in the more critical partners as actual 2nd parties. (ie directly invest in partial ownership of said companies to prevent their partnerships from slipping away -losing Core's close relationship in the Saturn days immediately comes to mind . . . even makes me wonder if a Sega owned Core might have continued more with some of the creative freedom they'd shown prior to that -assuming Sega didn't have other problems to drag all of them down)











I see your seen saying and your response and see you again, er, yeah. Based on Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft's public image the trick seems to be how well they can orchestrate themselves as creative geniuses while hiding all of their huge screw ups with lots of money. Sega seemed to be of the PR mindset that if they made quality product consumers would come, except for the Genesis days they never seemed all that keen on fabricated self promotion and I always respected that. Even if others don't see Sega that way, I think it is a touch hyperbolic to say that Sega's public image was or is entirely their responsibility.

I mean really, Sony seems to be floundering in public image finally and rightly so but there are still droves of people who willfully expect them to pull something creative out of their ass when that has never really happened before. Nintendo can say "yeah we suck, but look! New Zelda/Mario!" and everybody is happy. And Microsoft, yeah.
ANY big consumer product company with that mindset (quality is all that's important) is going to fail, it just doesn't make sense. That sort of thinking is totally unworkable.

Now, maintaining a high standard for quality in a SANE manner with the respect to other critical business practices is key and what all successful companies end up doing. Actual product quality is only a small facet of any consumer product's success. -And on top of that, Sega's "quality" wasn't consistently or dramatically better than most of their mainstream competition either, so that argument still doesn't apply.

Same thing with allowing creative freedom, it's something to be tempered and balanced with other business aspects. (and many companies go too far either way, and the closest to ideal cases oscillate between the two -that's really the best you can hope for . . . that and smaller developer firms that put out some great stuff and then either fall apart, get bought up, or split up and have the talent move on to other projects or new start-ups rather than languishing)

Sheath, hell, having companies bought-up like that even fuel's you're own preference for innovation over evolution, since the new parent companies will own the old IPs and force the developers who leave to create new characters and worlds. :p (though I personally don't agree that that's a fundamentally good thing either -plenty of cases where sequels or even long running series are a very good thing overall)





The Multimedia studio was crucial for developing CD-ROM games with any kind of multimedia, including cutscenes, CD quality music, voice acting, the works. Sega did not make that studio to make more FMV games. In fact, without Sega's early efforts with multimedia on the Sega CD it is doubtful how far along the industry would have been when the Saturn and PS1 made FMV cutscenes more normal and expected. Even Sony leaned heavily on Sega at the time of the Sega CD.
Totally agree. Albiet, it is a shame that they didn't utilize their multimedia resources differently and diversify at least as much as PC developers were doing at the time. (ie a mix of "interactive movie" type FMV stuff along with the foundation of what has become staples of multimedia in modern gaming . . . and a few casees of both -like the interactive Wing Commander cutscenes)
That, and they could have tempered in-house development more with ports of PC games. (a lot of the existing library that could have been better filled by some contemporary PC games, and Sega could have focused internal resources at fewer higher-quality original projects -or just tembered spending in general ;))


Overmarketing the Genesis was the only way to break Nintendo's illegal monopoly and stronghold on retailers. The choice there was to get by with 20% of the market at best, more likely less than 10%, or pay now and profit later. Unfortunately they didn't get the last part down. Sony's entrance into the market, and subsequent massive spending, and buying or paying off retailers, made the industry just as virulent and risky for other platform holders as Nintendo's monopolistic tactics had a decade earlier. Sega didn't exactly squander their momentum, Sony took it. The only question is how much might Sega have held on for if they made absolutely no mistakes and found an alternative revenue stream other than Arcades at the same time.
Not just to break Nintendo, but massive marketing became a staple of the entire (expanding) industry and has been critical ever since. Granted, there's some areas they could have re-directed marketing (like actually promoting more of the Sega CD's diverse library or MD games for that matter -rather than TV ads being more directed to the consoles), but the overall marketing style is a big part of what defined the MD's success.

Really, mass marketing is really an integral component that drove every successful console in North America going back to the 2600. (and also a key limiting factor for the 7800 and Master System -among other issues) It's not just TV ads either, but overall marketing. (print ads, product placement, in-store displays/kisoks, etc)


Shenmue should have been syndicated and at leased lent to other internal studios (see Yakuza) to make up the profits, not dropped. I agree there. The 32X was the only thing to shoot up Sega's revenue in 1994 at the crucial timing of the Saturn's Japanese Launch and early software development, which was much more costly than any 32X game possibly could have been to develop. Developing 32X versions of appropriate Saturn games shouldn't have cost any more than companies making ports of any game for multiple platforms and handhelds, for profits I might add.
I seem to recall reading that Saturn Shenmue was actually pretty close to completion too . . . probably another screw-up there to drop that along with the number of mounting mistakes following 1996 with the Saturn.


Did I neglect to exclude the Genesis marketing in that statement? Really though, Blast Processing was the kind of Marketing people are claiming Sega should have used more of, the kind that made their product look better.
Yes, though there's doing that within reason too, and also doingit tactfully enough to reasonably defent againt counter-arguments from competitors. (ie not twisting tech details so far that they are pretty much totally false)


Sega created games, and lots of them, too many to count really, and many of them were innovative or at least evolutionary. Sony created business partnerships to secure its market dominance, bought or payed off developers with better software, put smaller firms that wouldn't play their way out of the business, and offered what in exchange? At least Microsoft made online play easy and created Live Arcade to bring back the classics, Sony dragged their heals on that for the entire time they dominated the market. Sorry, I don't see anti-competitive business tactics as "creative" in the same sense that companies like Sega were.
What smaller firms did Sony put out of business?

And, in the PS2 days, Sony offered a LOT of incentive for developers to move over to them (or cross-platform support them). From the raw power of the system, to the development tools, to the favorable development licensing incentives (forget the details, but there were certain early sign-on bonuses/perks too in some cases). Sony had the air of confidence and stable management over the whole project too, along with good marketing and very real internal investment into the entire venture. (far and away from what the only previous mega-corp had attempted -NEC's foibles and failures in PCE/TG-16 management)

All things that made them massively attractive to 3rd party developers ESPECIALLY in terms of finally offering a truly compelling alternative to Nintendo in all major markets, and especially in Japan. That and Sega probably screwed up by not trying to take Sony on directly with some of those developer incentives, including with the influx of previously Nintendo-first developers. The Saturn made a big splash in Japan, and with the right incentives, Sega should have had much better luck pulling in some critical 3rd parties. (granted, Sega's status in Arcades would have complicated matters for other arcade developers -Getting Square to at least go multiplatform would have been a huge issue though . . . no way they could pull exclusivity from Sony, but splitting interests should have been possible with the right incentives)






The piracy thing needs to be placed in its proper context of Sega pouring it's last few hundred million dollars into the Dreamcast's marketing in the US. At least according to Pettus and a couple of other sources Sega was basically out of cash and dependent on the Dreamcast for revenue to keep the same on the market. They didn't have any other reserves or alternate markets to lean on.
I doubt they lost money from actual sales issues, but the net impact from PR issues with 3rd party developers was probably the biggest problem. A real shame too since GDROM really could have been a very secure and foolproof format. (without that exploit for ripping discs, it would have taken a leaked dev unit to allow that) That and lack of added security for booting CDs (initially) was a bad oversight too. (unlike late model DCs which can't read burned games out of the box) --All 1999 models can play burned games, but many 2000 models can't.




Nothing at all? The market slump hurt Sega more than Nintendo, and Sega pretty much pulled out all of the stops in 1994 to correct that. Then Sony announced its entry to the console market in mid to late 1993, replete with exaggerated theoretical specs that everybody agrees caused SoJ to "scramble" and revamp the Saturn.
Hardly. Those with enough understanding on the subject have argued that Sony would have only been one facet of that . . . the Jaguar, 3DO, Project Reality, PC, and (perhaps most importantly) criticism of Sega's own programmers all likely influenced that. (the programmer/engineer input being the best supported)

Now, what sort of modifications the hardware got is up to speculation, but I highly doubt it had much to do with the custom chips themselves (since the final design changes took place in late 1993 and final debugging for production in early/mid 1994, there wasn't enough time to do any major redesign work). So the likely changes would be the more modular components in the system, like RAM and the CPU. And it's also quite possible that engineers were already considering a variety of hardware configurations in terms of CPU/RAM (something variable to some extent on almost all console/computer designs). There's indication that Sega originally considered (or even implemented) an SH1 as the main CPU as well as single SH2 prior to the dual SH2 set-up was finalized.

As far as Sega actually losing money overall, I haven't seen definitive info on this one way or the other. There's evidence to support that the major losses didn't happen until mid-way into the Saturn, and then mounted with investments made to the Dreamcast. (kind of makes you wonder how it could have played out if Sega had taken as big an investment risk with the Saturn as they had with the DC)

kool kitty89
03-22-2013, 08:48 PM
The point is that Sega spent $10 million on a studio for games, for a userbase that was never going to be huge. Myst, 7th Guest, Dragon's Lair and even Mad Dog McCree didn't require that kind of expenditure to create those games. Blair Witch didn't even require $100,000 to make.

The $10 million is just one of many wasted expenses that Sega didn't need. Where were the bean counters at?
You're talking like the studio was just for the Sega CD. Sega's multimedia Studio would have expanded to contribute to later Saturn/PC/DC works in general had management gone better. Not a fault of creating the studio, but more a problem with management overall.

That, and as mentioned earlier, Sega could (and should) have made much better use of the multimedia studio in gneral, and truly tasted the waters for the new potential . . . more like PC game developers were doing.

Sega made some misguided decisions and bad investments that really don't make sense (even without hindsight), but the multimedia studio itself was not one of those. (what they DID with the studio in the end would apply more so though . . . and more so their overall management problems that squandered its potential on both the Sega CD and -especially- Saturn)





While the Saturn Design wasn't perfect, I don't think a massive redesign would have helped them financially as it would have caused problems on the development of launch titles. And as the PS2 proved, developers will develop for a hard to program system if enough people buy it. Having a stronger launch could have given them the push they needed to create that situation. Gamers wouldn't have cared about the Saturn's programming difficulty as long as the games didn't reflect any issues from it. If Sega launched in the US in fall of 1995 they could have launched with Virtua Fighter Remix instead of the original port which would have looked much better in comparison to Toshinden and Tekken. They could have launched with an improved version of Daytona and possibly had Sega Rally depending on when in the fall they launched. That would have looked better when compared to Ridge Racer. And they would have also had Virtua Fighter 2 and Virtua Cop on the Horizon which would have made them technically be in the launch window.
Agree . . . Saturn was good enough to do Sega proud if it hadn't been the the compounted problems in general. (mistake after mistake year-in and year-out from 1994 through 1998 . . . and arguably through 2001 or even post-DC)

As a hardware asside, though, going by the existing Saturn design and overall cost/tech limits of the time, Sega's best bet probably would have been a design centered around a souped up VDP1 and no VDP2. (double the bandwidth and maybe a few added features -better alpha blending support, real multiplicative lighting -or a non-standard colorspace like jaguar did to allow similar or better effects, etc -CRY color is really neat . . . 4-4-4-4 RGBI would have been interesting too though) 1MB of 32-bit wide texture RAM and 2 32-bit wide framebuffers. (or maybe a unified dual-bank 512 kB framebuffer -some contention for framebuffer scanning, but lower cost)
Something kind of like the 3DO GPU perhaps, but clocked faster and with faster RAM and a separate CPU bus. (3DO Cel and Saturn VDP1 are similar in a number of ways and even have similar peak rendering performance, but 3DO does that with 1/2 the RAM speed and double the bus width -32 bits vs 16-bits)
Still quads, but without the masive trade-offs with the Saturn's hardware scroll planes from VDP2. (all resources could go to quads for 2D and 3D, potentially beating the PSX in raw polygon output and texture quality by a fair marigin -if opitmized for- and also beating it in 2D with the same level of flexibility as a pure blitter-based system allows -no trade-offs of using VDP1+VDP2) -The higher price of the Saturn would have been more worthwhile there too.





Generally, I like when big time Nintendo fans always say "the SNES never needed any add ons or upgrades and more than 1 power supply and this and that other crap look at that Sega mess (true it was a mess then)", yet they planned a cd-rom drive too but pissed off Philips and Sony more than once so it didn't release but was hyped as hell and many of their games had cheat chips. Maybe everyone didn't like the Genesis add ons, but at least they were delivered and there are great games for Genesis, Sega CD (few) and 32 x (few) just like the SNES had great games or at least even 2 good versions of the same game (looks at Final Fight SNES) ha.
Sega should have used on-cart hardware too. (within reason)

Also, Nintendo didn't "piss off" Sony or Phillips, they abandoned Sony when they decided their contractual arrangement was unsuitable (albeit in a way that was rather cruel and disrespectful to Sony), then went on to partner with Phillips and eventually decided (in 1994) to halt that project too, but pissing off prospective Nintendo fans much more than Phillips. (Phillips still got money and perks from the venture to some extent, just not the royalties they could have had if the system was released)
A huge part of the cancellation was the same reason they opted for carts on the N64. (wanting a fully proprietary format resistant to piracy and leveraging huge control over 3rd party publication and distribution -including disallowing 3rd party manufacturing of game media)



Well didn't they say 2D was still where it was going to be even though they made 3D hits in Arcade before to the point people were starting to copy them ? I mentioned the Saturn was 2D and 3D but they did improve it more just before release correct ? (3D part?). So was it once not powerful enough to do VF or VR because it was focused on being 2D mainly ? I'm trying to find out fact from rumor on this. Articles brings up what we both mentioned.

""Just a 2D system"

Another possible cause for the idea that the Saturn was primarily a 2D game system with moderate 3D capabilities is that there are quite a few 2D games that were made for it, in comparison to the PS1's library. Sony forced developers to make PS1 games exclusively 3D until some years after the Playstation's release. Combine the library differences with a couple of Industry rumors about the President of Sega of Japan deciding the architecture of the Saturn over a golf game with a buddy from Hitachi, and the same President "scrambling" to revamp the Saturn's 3D capabilities immediately after Sony publicized the PS1's specs (mind you, the 500k/1million specs, not the real ones) and you have a theory run wild with speculation that proponents will defend to their deaths. Because of this, and the fact that 3D gaming caught on and completely replaced 2D gaming in this generation, Sony has been credited as the company to bring gaming into 3D."

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/SATPScompare.htm

"Secondly, Sega was seemingly caught flat-footed by the industry's shift to 3D game design and polygonal graphics. The company had always pushed sprite-based design to its limit with innovations like the System 16 board and Super Scaler tech, yet somehow its engineers failed to foresee the industry's move to polygons. The Saturn's entire architecture was revamped late in development, with a second processor added in nearly the 11th hour to aid 3D rendering. The drawback was that this complex hardware made the system difficult to program for -- and Sega's decision to go with quadrilaterals instead of the triangles everyone else settled on made cross-platform development difficult."

http://www.1up.com/features/saturn-collectors-guide
Most of that is false and unreasonable supposition on the subject.

Sega and (to lesser extent) Namco were kings of 3D in the arcades in the early 90s, and as I discussed previously, the sort of "last minute" changes to the Saturn were almost certainly limited to CPU and RAM choices. (also note the 3DO and Sega arcade boards used quads for 3D too, so that aspect wasn't really strange either . . . Nvidia's NV-1 used that too -triangles were more common and easier to work with though, but there were technical reasons to go for quads, both in terms of hardware design and rendering performance)

Any plans for "moderate 3D" on the Saturn design had probably gone out the window by late 1992. (in terms of any claims that the Saturn was to be "all 2D" with limited 3D like the PC-FX -no hardware assist)






IIRC The PS2's development environment was designed that way because they were getting a lot of requests from developers for a lot more low level access and a less high level C programming based environment. I seem to remember that with the original PlayStation Sony pretty much blocked any low level access and made the developers go through the APIs provided by Sony, mainly to aid the development process along. In an article called "Making the thin lady sing", published in an Edge special edition called "Equip - The insiders guide to Playstation 2" there was a section dealing with this:


According to Paul Holman at SCEE, one of the reasons for this initial bewilderment was that Sony's approach with respect to developer support was markedly different for PlayStation2. "When PSOne came out we provided a whole series of libraries and the expectation was developers would use them throughout." he says. European developers, in particular, demanded lower level access to the hardware. The result was, despite its obvious complexity, with Playstation2 Sony gave developers what it thought they wanted: fewer libraries but lots of detailed information about how the system worked.

It does go on to say that developers initially had a hard time with the PS2, but that some of the devs did get to grips with the system. I think Sony probably should of balanced the support more so that low and high level support was equal.

BTW If anyone wants to see the article I could scan it and attach it if this doesn't breach forum rules. What is the forum's policy on magazine scans? This magazine was fron 2003 so its about 10 years old now.
Sony misread developers: they wanted BOTH high level libraries and the option to make low level tweaks (a problem with the PSX and a critical flaw with the 3DO especially -the older/more primitive hardware benefits more and more from manual low-level optimization). N64 was hindered by limited/no access to low level hardware (for direct programming or custom APIs), but unlike the PSX/Saturn/3DO, the N64 would have been highly impratical to launch with no libraries at all. (the other 3 were simple enough that good documentation would have been reasonable . . . albeit the Saturn's documentation was questionable and limited initially -as with most previous Sega consoles)

Sony did this right with their expanded PSX documenation late gen, but they just screwed that up with the PS2. (there should have been a high-quality baseline standard set of libraries -maintained and improved with time- as well as comprehensive documentation) Albeit, with the complexity of hardware in that genration, low-level programming was really becoming impractical. (still useful and important for 5th gen, not so much 6th gen, and generally unworkable 7th gen -aside from the actual coders building the compilers and libraries in general)





I don't consider the N64 (64 bit) in the Dreamcasts generation (128 bit) and not sure why it was even brought up tbh. I'm not saying it wasn't the most powerful of it's 32/64 bit generation (My steps up from Jaguar comment was harsh yes) but nothing really mattered besides PlayStation in the generation (in USA) in the publics eye is what I meant. Everyone I knew who bought a N64, got bored with it quick and still played PS1 more anyway.

PS1 owned. Anything else didn't really matter here. N64 and Gamecube like the WiiU are backburners. Sure N64 sold more than Saturn, but PS1 ruled. Dreamcast was a great console imo for 128 bit generation but PS2 ruled that too. Wii (technically last generation now I guess) was a phenomenon (they should of payed that midway/dc controller guy for it's controller birth) but even though Wii is the leader now (where current sales charts ?) the N64 and Gamecube like the Saturn and DC, were under the Sony shadow from PS2 record sales then Xbox then GameCube then DC. Nobody cared about those 3rd and 4th machines for the most part. Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony now though, seem to be fading it seems.
That's nothing to do with the hardware design and everything to do with Sony and Nintendo's business strategies and marketing.

Vector2013
03-22-2013, 09:44 PM
Sega should have used on-cart hardware too. (within reason)

Also, Nintendo didn't "piss off" Sony or Phillips, they abandoned Sony when they decided their contractual arrangement was unsuitable (albeit in a way that was rather cruel and disrespectful to Sony),


It seemed that way, Sony was like "bye then" and took the PS on market using basically the SNES controller blueprint, capitalized on FF license and other things and destroyed everyone in their path to become the VG leader. Sony had a middle finger to Nintendo I'm sure. All Nintendo had to do was shut up and let the PS add on as is and Nintendo/Sony would have ruled the world.



then went on to partner with Phillips and eventually decided (in 1994) to halt that project too, but pissing off prospective Nintendo fans much more than Phillips. (Phillips still got money and perks from the venture to some extent, just not the royalties they could have had if the system was released)


Yes.


A huge part of the cancellation was the same reason they opted for carts on the N64. (wanting a fully proprietary format resistant to piracy and leveraging huge control over 3rd party publication and distribution -including disallowing 3rd party manufacturing of game media)


So they asked companies to design a cd add on but wanted carts all along really because they didn't want to pay cd royalties and prevent piracy ? Okay. Is Wii and WiiU the only Nintendo devices that use regular size discs ?


Most of that is false and unreasonable supposition on the subject.

Sega and (to lesser extent) Namco were kings of 3D in the arcades in the early 90s, and as I discussed previously, the sort of "last minute" changes to the Saturn were almost certainly limited to CPU and RAM choices. (also note the 3DO and Sega arcade boards used quads for 3D too, so that aspect wasn't really strange either . . . Nvidia's NV-1 used that too -triangles were more common and easier to work with though, but there were technical reasons to go for quads, both in terms of hardware design and rendering performance)

Any plans for "moderate 3D" on the Saturn design had probably gone out the window by late 1992. (in terms of any claims that the Saturn was to be "all 2D" with limited 3D like the PC-FX -no hardware assist)


Okay thanks. VF and VR by Sega were the 1st polygon fighters and racers in Arcades yes ? Way before Saturn ?


That's nothing to do with the hardware design and everything to do with Sony and Nintendo's business strategies and marketing.

I don't really care about the N64 hardware really, I said it was powerful in it's generation (not DCs) but that didn't matter PS1 ruled it and not sure why it was even brought up in in DC thread, it wasn't even in DCs generation.

Armoured Priest
03-22-2013, 09:58 PM
As far as adding the DVD player to the DC and the perception of its helping success for the PS2. Really, that's a mixed bag. There's the case to be made that the PS2 was a lot of people's first DVD players (and that "The Matrix" was the PS2's killer app). Honestly it meant more in Japan then in the US (can't comment on Europe, i don't know these numbers). In Japan the PS2 was far and away the cheapest DVD player available. if memory serves standalone units were at least 2 to 1 in cost versus the PS2 in Japan. So in Japan that actually did push a lot of PS2s. Here in the US it was different. Standard catalog prices for DVD players at that point were 120-150 USD for a low to mid range model (some cheapies were flirting with 100, and obviously there were more expensive models to be had.) I myself bought one, a Magnavox from Sears, for about 150-160, before the PS2 was released (I picked up Twister for my sister and mom, and bought myself Mystery Men...still get a kick out of that movie :) ). To be fair, I did this knowing I had a PS2 pre-ordered for my own DVD purposes and I wanted to help bring my family into the 21st century ;P...and like my DC, I got a PS2 on day one.

Difference was with my DC, I had Soul Calibur. With my PS2, I didn't really have any games worth noting, and there wasn't anything i cared about till Zone of the Enders came out (which was a fine, if shallow and short, game...I played the MGS2 demo a couple times, but I bought ZotE for ZotE...I generally am not willing to spend $50 for a demo).

Anyway short version DVD mattered more in Japan (where it mattered a lot) then in North America (didn't matter so much).

sheath
03-22-2013, 10:10 PM
I only bought a PS2 in late 2001 because my PC wouldn't play Soul Reaver 2, I wanted a PS1 again for some of the newer 2D games like Strider 2, and I wanted a DVD player. It was still $300 at that point and had just come out of its forced launch shortage and become readily available. For the price I figured I was adding PS2 functionality for about $100 and saving shelf space.

In 2000 I thought people were bat shit crazy for buying a PS2 at $300 and not a Dreamcast at $150 considering the game libraries at the time. But, I've always assumed people would look at the actual games before purchasing a console.

Armoured Priest
03-22-2013, 10:34 PM
I only bought a PS2 in late 2001 because my PC wouldn't play Soul Reaver 2, I wanted a PS1 again for some of the newer 2D games like Strider 2, and I wanted a DVD player. It was still $300 at that point and had just come out of its forced launch shortage and become readily available. For the price I figured I was adding PS2 functionality for about $100 and saving shelf space.

In 2000 I thought people were bat shit crazy for buying a PS2 at $300 and not a Dreamcast at $150 considering the game libraries at the time. But, I've always assumed people would look at the actual games before purchasing a console.

I assumed the games would come. The PS1 had a great library, didn't think Sony would screw that up. That and I had the money to blow. I had PS1, Sega Saturn, and Dreamcast games to fill the gap till the good PS2 games started to show up. (so excited for the D&D collection getting re-released :) I put many hours into the Saturn port.) Also looking forward to Dragon's Crown (which got a new trailer today...basically D&D 3). XD


I basically looked at it as DVD for 150, replacement PS1 (which was getting a little finicky at the time) for another 50, and the promise of PS2 games for 100.

sheath
03-22-2013, 11:13 PM
ANY big consumer product company with that mindset (quality is all that's important) is going to fail, it just doesn't make sense. That sort of thinking is totally unworkable.

This is what I am trying to describe to the younger generation and the group in general. The console wars of the 90s decided this, previously the companies themselves and consumers very much believed in the concept of "if you build it, they will come."



Now, maintaining a high standard for quality in a SANE manner with the respect to other critical business practices is key and what all successful companies end up doing. Actual product quality is only a small facet of any consumer product's success. -And on top of that, Sega's "quality" wasn't consistently or dramatically better than most of their mainstream competition either, so that argument still doesn't apply.

In business it is generally "sane" to assume that your highest revenue source is going to continue to be so. I don't know any companies that just bale out of an industry without first suffering massive losses. Nintendo and Sony made the game industry such that no console manufacturer could get by without a huge side market/slush fund to lean on.

As to Sega's game or hardware quality. Really, please defend your position that Sega's "quality" of hardware and software wasn't better than their competitors? Are we talking about the popularity of the products determining quality, innovation determining quality, risk determining quality, longevity determining quality? I was specifically pointing to Sega's risk taking with new products and quantity of software and hardware releases during the 80s and 90s.



Totally agree. Albiet, it is a shame that they didn't utilize their multimedia resources differently and diversify at least as much as PC developers were doing at the time.
That, and they could have tempered in-house development more with ports of PC games.


Ideally they would have licensed the "studio" to third parties for a much better fee than Hollywood or the music industry would have for game development. For all we know this actually happened.



Not just to break Nintendo, but massive marketing became a staple of the entire (expanding) industry and has been critical ever since. Granted, there's some areas they could have re-directed marketing (like actually promoting more of the Sega CD's diverse library or MD games for that matter -rather than TV ads being more directed to the consoles), but the overall marketing style is a big part of what defined the MD's success.

Really, mass marketing is really an integral component that drove every successful console in North America going back to the 2600. (and also a key limiting factor for the 7800 and Master System -among other issues) It's not just TV ads either, but overall marketing. (print ads, product placement, in-store displays/kisoks, etc)

Yup, anticompetitive megacorps escalate. That is what they do. What happens when things escalate for too long? *pop*



I seem to recall reading that Saturn Shenmue was actually pretty close to completion too . . . probably another screw-up there to drop that along with the number of mounting mistakes following 1996 with the Saturn.

Saturn Shenmue has been rumored to be in various states, none of which are confirmed. The video in Shenmue II can't even be used to confirm the actual framerate for example. We can assume that is what Saturn Shenmue would have looked like and that is about it. Yu Suzuki is a creative genius and mad man, if he sees more capabilities he takes advantage of them. That is, unless we are going to dismiss his interviews as well, then he is probably just another wasteful Sega moron who made a bunch of stuff that didn't make billions of dizzollars.



What smaller firms did Sony put out of business?

Bleem!, Sega, Working Designs, and Lik Sang. Core essentially lost its original talent directly because of Sony's exclusive Tomb Raider contract.

-edit-

Here is something I wish I could define more clearly to the rest of the group.

http://www3.wooster.edu/teagle/images/vendiagram.png

Look at how creativity almost precludes organization and systematic thought. Obviously a balance must be struck, but the way the industry is today thanks to companies like Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, EA, and Activision is the opposite extreme. Doing nothing unless it can be measured in focus groups will result in stagnation, has resulted in stagnation.

Knuckle Duster
03-23-2013, 02:58 PM
Does Mame have any Naomi integration? If I throw together a cabinet for CvsSNK2, does it run 100% yet? NullDC the way to go? I haven't followed that scene.

sheath
03-23-2013, 03:14 PM
Does Mame have any Naomi integration? If I throw together a cabinet for CvsSNK2, does it run 100% yet? NullDC the way to go? I haven't followed that scene.

As far as I know the only chance of emulating anything from this generation is basically like porting the code to newer hardware, or high level emulation on a game by game basis. Odds are we will never see low level emulation of any of these consoles.

The Jackal
03-23-2013, 08:29 PM
Digging up the CD burner's being too expensive for most folks back in 2002 part:

Yes, it was. But all you needed was someone with access to one. I knew of two shops back in 2001-2 which sold pirated Dreamcast games, one of them being run by a "friend" of the family: he used to make repeated trips to Taiwan and would come back with whatever he could smuggle back; namely knockoff DVDs and games (PS1 games mostly, but he still sold DC games as well). All he needed was just one copy of a game, and he could easily make more. I remember he used to have a box of them stashed in the back, and would only bring them out when he knew the coast was safe.

gamevet
03-23-2013, 09:14 PM
What are you talking about?

Launching in Japan made perfect sense . . . a good test market and more viable market when software, system pricing, and volumes would be otherwise inadequate. Nothing exclusively about pride. (plus, on paper, the Saturn's success in Japan should have meant the DC had the best chance there . . . which didn't happen obviously) The 1999 launch was nearly perfect . . . the hole on the market leading up to that was a separate problem though. (they should have kept the Saturn supported better in the interim)

I'm talking about from the 32X on. SOA was creating the 32X and wasn't being informed about the upcoming Saturn. SOJ having SOA working on a Dreamcast prototype, only to have it shot down by the SOJ design. The sales numbers don't lie though; SOJ finally let the western markets back into the fold (they didn't even know when the system was going to launch), after they had launched in Japan.

Don't be so quick to jump the gun.



You're talking like the studio was just for the Sega CD. Sega's multimedia Studio would have expanded to contribute to later Saturn/PC/DC works in general had management gone better. Not a fault of creating the studio, but more a problem with management overall.

That, and as mentioned earlier, Sega could (and should) have made much better use of the multimedia studio in gneral, and truly tasted the waters for the new potential . . . more like PC game developers were doing.

Sega made some misguided decisions and bad investments that really don't make sense (even without hindsight), but the multimedia studio itself was not one of those. (what they DID with the studio in the end would apply more so though . . . and more so their overall management problems that squandered its potential on both the Sega CD and -especially- Saturn)


They didn't need a a full production audio/video studio to create media for the Sega CD, PC, Saturn or DC. Better productions were being made with small studios, creating pretty good content on small budgets. Building a $10 million studio without any direction doesn't look like a good investment decision at all, and considering the content that was created in the West, compared to Japan for the Sega CD, it was a failure.

Hell, television stations were doing audio/video production using Amigas and Video toaster back then. They didn't need multi-million dollar studios to create content.

Vector2013
03-23-2013, 09:27 PM
Digging up the CD burner's being too expensive for most folks back in 2002 part:

Yes, it was.

May I ask where you lived ? In 2002 CD burning was kind of old and cheap in PCs as the new media was DVDs then and here is a forum 2 years after that in 2004 saying how DVD burners only cost $150 or cheaper then plus they discuss CD burners being cheap or outdated years before.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=1368454

I still don't see how a CD Burner in 1999 or a DVD Burner in 2004 costing like $150 was expensive. That was how people stored media info, I mean external HD now cost that, so really nothing changed since 1999.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/WD---My-Book-Essential-3TB-External-USB-3.0/2.0-Hard-Drive---Black/1261281.p?id=1218244145647&skuId=1261281

Would I say that is expensive to hold or back up all my info ? No.

The Jackal
03-23-2013, 09:34 PM
May I ask where you lived ? In 2002 CD burning was kind of old and cheap in PCs as the new media was DVDs then and here is a forum 2 years after that in 2004 saying how DVD burners only cost $150 or cheaper then plus they discuss CD burners being cheap or outdated years before.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=1368454

I still don't see how a CD Burner in 1999 or a DVD Burner in 2004 costing like $150 was expensive. That was how people stored media info, I mean external HD now cost that, so really nothing changed since 1999.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/WD---My-Book-Essential-3TB-External-USB-3.0/2.0-Hard-Drive---Black/1261281.p?id=1218244145647&skuId=1261281

Would I say that is expensive to hold or back up all my info ? No.

London, most of the people I knew didn't get their own computers until around late 03, and most came with basic CD readers. My college in 2007 was still using floppy discs to save docs on. I don't think it had much to do with if they were expensive or not, it was more people were too poor to even consider them, at least in my area that's how it was.

j_factor
03-23-2013, 09:49 PM
My grandparents bought a budget Compaq PC that came with a CD burner. I don't remember precisely when they bought it, but it came with Windows ME, so it couldn't have been later than 2001.

Vector2013
03-23-2013, 10:29 PM
Okay thanks guys I think that is some of the problem, we are all from different regions that seem to handle the technology different a little, all different ages and all have subjective opinions on what is expensive.

All I can say for me is, I wasn't rich or even close to middle class, I was above poverty but in 1999 I had a PC with 2 internal burners (bought one burner in 1998 and other in 1999), bought a home mini disc recorder and home cd burner in 1999 all for around $140 to $200 each. So adding all those up it equaled a PS3 console launch basically. But just one was cheaper than a DC. Like I said a $150 for a 3 TB HD that saved all my years of info is priceless. Before that dvd recording was. Before that cd burning was. Before that floppy was. I think for 2004 to now a internal cd burner was like $69. It might be cheaper but they need to make a profit.

It was expensive to me in 1998 but not in mid 1999 and esp not in 2004. But that is where I live. And keep in mind I was never tech savy.

gamevet
03-23-2013, 10:58 PM
I really didn't have a need for a PC (Amiga gamer in the 80s-90s) until 2001. The internet was still getting its legs, PCs were expensive and work didn't require it at the time. The IT guy at my wife's job threw together a computer that I used from 2001-2003; it just had a CD drive. When I finally got a cheap PC ($500) in 2003, it came with a CD-RW drive.

This guy's article from 2000 sets the price for a CD-R burner at @ $149 back then.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030202233907/http://www.roxio.com/en/support/cdr/historycdr.html




The History of CD-R

by Bob Starrett




If you are new to CD recording and just bought a recorder for $149, it may be a little hard to imagine that the first CD recorder sold in the US cost $149,000 -- one thousand times more than the recorder you just bought. Actually, that first CD recorder would have been part of a susbsystem that included all the other equipment necessary to make the recorder record a single-session disc at 1x, the top recording speed at the time.

Barone
03-23-2013, 11:25 PM
That is no reason to dismiss anything historically. In fact, dismissing expensive failures and the primary sources around them is a very biased thing to do.
No, the bias is when you use *ONLY* SOA's ex-CEOs and Multimedia Studio's ex-employees to attest their own relevance. Sorry, actually it's not bias, it's pure madness.



Similarly, you are misunderstanding my intentions and railing on me instead of considering the possibility that I had something to say. I'm not going to go back and quote myself, but what I am trying to say is that Sega's early efforts with the multi-media studio, multi-media in general, and the Sega CD was very influential in the industry.
I will quote exactly what you said 'cause you seem to be changing it quite a bit now:

The Multimedia studio was crucial for developing CD-ROM games with any kind of multimedia, including cutscenes, CD quality music, voice acting, the works. Sega did not make that studio to make more FMV games. In fact, without Sega's early efforts with multimedia on the Sega CD it is doubtful how far along the industry would have been when the Saturn and PS1 made FMV cutscenes more normal and expected. Even Sony leaned heavily on Sega at the time of the Sega CD.
Since you have no sources, other than SOA themselves to say that SOA was great and yaadaaadada, the "In fact" part is all bullshit. And I have pointed many examples to you showing that you didn't need any multimillion studio to do wonder in the CD market, then, the "crucial" part is also bullshit.
Now, point me some sources with any other companies in the game industry or even magazines attesting that the Multimedia Studio influenced shit or just drop those non-sense lines, please.



Is it possible that some companies saw what Sega did and decided to do things differently? Absolutely, but that is still Sega's actions influencing the industry.
You said *POSSIBLE* or *IN FACT*. 'Cause I think you said *IN FACT* and, in such case, sources are required.




As for Joe Miller, Tom Kalinske and Scot Bayless, I'm not asking you to believe their self promotion, especially at the time. What I am talking about is reading between the lines, using their first hand accounts to gain a better understanding. For example, another one of Sega's earlier influences was Joe Miller himself (http://www.sega-16.com/2013/02/interview-joe-miller/)who said:
So, you really expect me to swallow ex-SOA's employees testimonials about how great SOA's projects were in interviews to a Sega fan site? Really? That's not happening in this century, I can assure you.



You see, if Kalinske and Sega of America could influence these two people's careers with their multi-media studio what do you think that caused in the industry as a whole?

Here is another example from Scot Bayless (http://www.sega-16.com/2012/03/interview-scot-bayless/):
Please, drop that shit and point me any non-Sega related sources attesting Sega's Multimedia Studio relevance. 'Cause all that I can see is that only SOA's employees and you think that such project worth jack to the game industry history.



So you see, Sega's ramping up production in 1992-4 for multimedia drew a lot of attention to the game industry. Attention brings talent, money, and ideas, and that is all I was saying.
I can hire 100 programmers, artists and whatever you want right now, it won't change the game industry any millimeter. It's what you DO and not what you OWN or BUY that influence something. Sega did NOTHING outstanding with its awesome equipped studio, that's the problem with your line of arguing IMO.



Do Myst and Seventh guest play like an interactive encyclopedia showing long extinct animals in a setting based on a blockbuster movie? Of course they don't.
Thank God, no. 'Cause that would be boring as hell and they probably would have sold 1/10 of what they actually did... Hey, wait, that's what happened to SOA's Jurassic Park, oh... ;)



I was only saying that nobody was making the kind of game Jurassic Park CD is, instead what we got was platformers and shooters and whatever the hell that 3DO game is.
Again, wrong. Feels like you chose to ignore all the examples I had provided. They aren't platformers and shooters at all.
"Look! Jurassic Park on the Sega CD!!! WOOOAAAAHH! It has fugly digitized images, wow! And it's a mixture of mediocre plotted point-and-click adventure and dinosaur interactive encyclopedia, expected to be played without mouse, WOOOOAAAAH!"
Really, very creative stuff. :notworthy:



It seems to me that the entire development time of Jurassic Park CD went right through the early multi-media buzz and subsequent fall out. It definitely ran into the market slump and Sega's lost year on year revenue that led to the creation of the 32X. Bayless' first hand account also changes the "studio" into a game developer by the time it was shut down.
Fact: Multimedia Studio was a 10 million investment and a lot of promises behind it, its first game came out only in 1994, after more than a full year of its foundation, and its sales were very mediocre. Also, the reviewers of all major magazines seem to have failed to see anything especial in that game, unlike you.



So, what, Game Arts did all of its recording in a basement on personal computers? Who did the english voice acting in Wing Commander for Sega CD? The manual says:
Clear as mud, but I would guess that Game Arts didn't do the English voice acting.
So, uh, by providing voice acting, in 1994, to a port of a PC game from 1990 SOA's changed the course of the game industry or something? I don't think so.
And, even so, there's no confirmation that such English voice acting was made by SOA's multimillionaire studio.




It's absurd to consider the facts then?
Your "facts" are interviews from Sega to the Sega fanbase talking about how great Sega was. That's... marvelous, in fact.




You are getting hung up on the fact that you don't like the one game SoA's internal multimedia studio made and missing the point of the discussion.
No, you're the one going back and forth from your alternate realities and dodging the truth. To be any influential to the industry any studio created by any company must be able to produce something that really set the world on fire, something really innovative that manage to, at the same time, sell like hot cakes and appeal to the critics. Even if not appealing to the critics, innovative best sellers usually have a great impact in the new products to be released in the next months/years.
SOA Multimedia Studio's work, be it the Jurassic Park game or any enhanced/composed/mixed soundtrack or any voice acting or anything you come to prove they did, nothing of all that "stuff" they created sold very well or appeared as innovative or groundbreaking or even as a landmark to either the press and much less to the game industry.
It still could have been "influential" to the game industry from a business/resources management point of view if it had dramatically reduce the Sega's costs/time of production of multimedia games and/or had made it in such a way that it had become a competitive advantage, making the Sega CD or even the Saturn games produced or localized there cheaper than Sony's and Nintendo's, for an example and/or making the Sega CD or Saturn libraries unmatched in terms of multimedia/innovative games. But nothing like that actually happened.
It remained as a good idea on the paper IMO, nothing beyond that.



As for Jurassic Park CD, I am not talking about the gameplay, I am talking about the resources required to digitize everything that is on that disk and turn it into a game.
They made it the most expensive way, yes. But, uh, what's so special about that? The results were depressing to say the least.




I didn't say Sega's multimedia studios made great games and nobody else did, I said that they were very influential to the industry and helped the industry with experience and resources to ramp up for the eventual CD-ROM takeover.
This statement is your self-confession that all you said was delusional.




Okay, well, Olaf Olaffson wasn't influenced by the Sega CD at all then, he and Kalinske didn't talk about its merits and weaknesses and muse about what a next generation multimedia machine should look like. Sony Imagesoft didn't cut its teeth multimedia development Sega CD. I am a fool, stupid too.
You can be anything you want to be, but when you claim facts you have to prove them with some sources actually.




Okay, so Sony and Psygnosis were gaming wizards and Sega never influenced anybody.
Okay, so Sony's presence in the industry was entirely positive and Sega just blew its own brains out. End of story.
Yeah, you run out of arguments, I see.

profholt82
03-24-2013, 12:43 AM
Ghost of Barone, Sheath,
"If you boys cannot control yourselves, then I'm afraid I'm gonna have to ask you to leave."
http://www.stanus.net/seinfeld/chars/larry_1.jpg

Barone
03-24-2013, 01:24 AM
Ghost of Barone, Sheath,
"If you boys cannot control yourselves, then I'm afraid I'm gonna have to ask you to leave."
Since sheath is the OP and he specifically asked me to "kick him in the teeth" (if I had disagreed with his last reply to me) during our conversations yesterday, well, I think we'll stay for a while.
We usually talk every day outside this forum, so it's not like we're actually bloody fighting in real life. But we do have very different views about some topics... I don't see a problem in that and I think he also doesn't, so, relax. ;)

profholt82
03-24-2013, 04:08 AM
Poster formerly known as Ghostinharborsomethingsomething, I will not relax, you relax!
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mafwcbJmrf1r52x2fo1_500.jpg

Barone
03-24-2013, 01:36 PM
??? :daze:

profholt82
03-24-2013, 02:02 PM
Yeah, I was a bit boozed up last night. I dont know what I was saying exactly. I think I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit and I was having too much fun while others looked on in puzzlement.

Anyway, apologies for my derailment. This is a vid from a thread I made on the DC last year about its release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqocFElidKI&feature=g-vrec&context=G207a00dRVAAAAAAAAAw

bgpjr
03-25-2013, 07:58 PM
I didn't read the entire thread (seems like it was getting away from the original subject) but CD burners were around late 90s, at least in my circle. I bought a SCSI CD burner back in '96 for $250. I was the first to have one in the group that I associated with. I remember discs being quite pricy, so when someone wanted something copied, they had to pay up. Plus the darn thing was not very reliable. A few years later, burners were quite the norm, especially by the time the Dreamcast was out.

Speaking of DC, I got mine at a pawn shop in the town I went to college at. I wasn't really into video games at that time, but did know of the DC. This was the spring of 2000. The pawn shop had the system, with two controllers for only $100, so I snagged it up. I fell in love with the machine! It got me back into video gaming. One of the first games I got was Soul Calibur. Holy cow did that game blow my mind! I remember showing it off to friends and they were amazed at it. The game still amazes me!

I recall my perception of why the console failed was the lack of a DVD drive. The PS2 having a DVD drive was a major selling point. I wanted a PS2 for that exact reason, but didn't get one at that time. The price was way too high, especially after the scalpers got ahold of them and sold them around $700. Ended up getting a cheap Apex DVD player instead. LOL I would not get a PS2 until 2007/8 and only because I found one for $50. At any rate, I felt betrayed by Sega when they discontinued it. I was really pissed off. I ended up dropping out of video games for about two years until I bought a Xbox. As for bootlegging, I didn't download any games for it, but did grab some of the various apps for it. Years later I downloaded some bootlegs, but that was well after the console's time in the marketplace. I especially liked the Street Fighter 3: Third Strike hack that had the game, but replaced the music with heavy metal / techno music!

kool kitty89
03-27-2013, 05:34 AM
As far as adding the DVD player to the DC and the perception of its helping success for the PS2. Really, that's a mixed bag. There's the case to be made that the PS2 was a lot of people's first DVD players (and that "The Matrix" was the PS2's killer app). Honestly it meant more in Japan then in the US (can't comment on Europe, i don't know these numbers). In Japan the PS2 was far and away the cheapest DVD player available. if memory serves standalone units were at least 2 to 1 in cost versus the PS2 in Japan. So in Japan that actually did push a lot of PS2s. Here in the US it was different. Standard catalog prices for DVD players at that point were 120-150 USD for a low to mid range model (some cheapies were flirting with 100, and obviously there were more expensive models to be had.) I myself bought one, a Magnavox from Sears, for about 150-160, before the PS2 was released (I picked up Twister for my sister and mom, and bought myself Mystery Men...still get a kick out of that movie :) ). To be fair, I did this knowing I had a PS2 pre-ordered for my own DVD purposes and I wanted to help bring my family into the 21st century ;P...and like my DC, I got a PS2 on day one.

Difference was with my DC, I had Soul Calibur. With my PS2, I didn't really have any games worth noting, and there wasn't anything i cared about till Zone of the Enders came out (which was a fine, if shallow and short, game...I played the MGS2 demo a couple times, but I bought ZotE for ZotE...I generally am not willing to spend $50 for a demo).

Anyway short version DVD mattered more in Japan (where it mattered a lot) then in North America (didn't matter so much).
I'm not saying that DVD wasn't a factor for the PS2 at all, or that it wasn't a selling point. (not to mention the actual advantages for games using the format)

However, I maintain that it wouldn't have made a practical selling point for the Dreamcast, partially due to the earlier release date than the PS2, but mainly due to the major cost overhead for using DVD technology (and licensing for DVD video support as well). It would have inordinately increased the DC's manufacturing costs and retail price, just not a good situation overall. (as it was, pricing the DC as low as they did, including the modem, and -especially- rebate offers and later price drops were pretty questionable given Sega's financial situation, but DVD is one thing that probably would have been a bad idea even if Sega had been in a good, stable money/market/management position going in with the DC in '98/99 -and totally insane to do given their historical situation)






I'm talking about from the 32X on. SOA was creating the 32X and wasn't being informed about the upcoming Saturn. SOJ having SOA working on a Dreamcast prototype, only to have it shot down by the SOJ design. The sales numbers don't lie though; SOJ finally let the western markets back into the fold (they didn't even know when the system was going to launch), after they had launched in Japan.
A lot of that has been debunked though. There's a lot of evidence that upper management of SoJ and SoA were quite reasonably in touch over major plans as such. The problem arose over long term planning in general, and ever shifting market targets for certain products. (the 32x itself had several market targets that were rendered moot by 1995 -including countering the 3DO and Jaguar)

Aside from that, the main ideas of the 32x still stood alongside the Saturn's release plans, and those roles had always been (and remained) more fitting to Sega's Western markets due to the price sensitivity of consoles there, the market slump at the time, and the much greater success of the Genesis (the latter applying specifically to using the add-on form factor).
We don't have intimate details on exactly what sort of plans there originally were for marketing the 32x and Saturn together, but in any case, the shifting dynamic in 1995 really screwed things up and Sega didn't handle the change well at all.
--In that context, with the 32x already on the market, it still could have made the most sense to continue support and try to build a low-end niche for that platform alongside the next-gen competition at very least in the short term (through 1996 -so until 5th gen consoles hit full mainstream). What Sega did do was far from that, of course, and ended up hurting pretty much all of their products in some way.
--OTOH, even prior to any insight into market dynamic shifts in late '94 or during '95 (so from the perspective of early 1994 -inception of 32x project), I still think there would have been a huge argument for a similar market goal/niche as the 32x targeted that could be filled by the Jupiter with a number of trade-offs but massive net advantages IMO. (probable similar retail price to MD+32x initially, much better overall performance and potential longevity, modular design that would be software/hardware compatible with and expandable to Saturn, etc -main disadvantages being higher price than the 32x add-on and no MD compatibility) -The other intended roles of the 32x could have been better filled by investment in MD/CD software development alone -including "chipped" carts -potentially much less elaborate than SVP. (not to get into other possibilities like a cheaper/simpler MD add-on -like an SVP cart, etc)

I've argued this here already:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?23010-More-Alternate-Reality-Stuff-or-Did-the-32x-Make-Sense


They didn't need a a full production audio/video studio to create media for the Sega CD, PC, Saturn or DC. Better productions were being made with small studios, creating pretty good content on small budgets. Building a $10 million studio without any direction doesn't look like a good investment decision at all, and considering the content that was created in the West, compared to Japan for the Sega CD, it was a failure.

Hell, television stations were doing audio/video production using Amigas and Video toaster back then. They didn't need multi-million dollar studios to create content.
How do you know how much was being invested in studios pushing multimedia like that at the time? 10 million is really a drop in the bucket compared to the sort of investments many companies were making at the time for multimedia game software. Case in point with Sega too, they spent millions on actual multimedia game development budgets, many of which would fall under the same "wasteful" category I touched upon earlier. (those are cases of really wasting money IMO . . . investing in a centralized studio like that very well could have paid off both in the short and long run if managed tactfully)

Of course, those big-budgets for games would become the norm and then be surpassed pretty quickly in the late 90s, but that's another topic in itself. ;)

And in terms of investment, we also have no solid figures on how much SoA spent on building other in-house North American studios, so there's not even definite context there.

I suppose the bigger overall argument here would be outsourcing vs buying up existing 3rd parties vs building up new internal resources in general. (with outsourcing you could focus on a limited set of in-house specializations and outsource to 3rd party partners to complement that . . . probably the most cost-effective options, but also with trade-offs -including conflicts of interest and the potential for buy-out or collapse of critical partners)

[QUOTE=gamevet;566099]
A bigger limit would have been actually sharing the games . . . with slow internet connections, you'd be a lot more limited as such. (and more prone to old fashion swapping of copied discs like in the floppy and cassette days ;) )

kool kitty89
03-27-2013, 07:02 AM
This is what I am trying to describe to the younger generation and the group in general. The console wars of the 90s decided this, previously the companies themselves and consumers very much believed in the concept of "if you build it, they will come."
Since when?
The console market going back to the late 70s was a mix of actual product quality and marketing (and distribution, branding, etc). Atari, Mattel, Coleco, Commodore, etc all heavily relied on mass marketing to drive their products . . . and in some cases, there wasn't much of anything "built" as such until AFTER a huge marketing push had been made. (the C64 was a big example of that . . . nasty build quality issues and poor customer support on top of that -but good hardware potential and software following that relatively quickly . . . average people also overlooked the total cost -with typical required peripherals- and issues like a painfully slow floppy drive compared to the competition, and the competitors failed to exploit those weaknesses either -things Atari really could have pushed in particular, both in terms of games and general computing -the latter which the A8 had a more definitive advantage over the C64 with)


In business it is generally "sane" to assume that your highest revenue source is going to continue to be so. I don't know any companies that just bale out of an industry without first suffering massive losses. Nintendo and Sony made the game industry such that no console manufacturer could get by without a huge side market/slush fund to lean on.
Sega didn't bail after first suffering massive losses, they dropped out after being fraught with mounting problems for roughly 5 years. They had tons of investments in their overall infrastructure and a much more diverse business network than Nintendo (and also lots of investor funding/credit for a time), but also a lack of raw cash funds to fall back on, and lack of any long-held establishment in the home game console market.

Likewise, the video game industry had already been limited to heavy hitting corporations for pushing home console hardware platforms by the end of the 70s and solidified as such in the early 80s. Hence why Nintendo tried to license to Atari rather than trying to break into such a rough market. (they were too small and weak to play with the big boys) If it wasn't for the market crash, this would have been the status quo much sooner, but with the crash, we saw a set back to a much more open market for a time that allowed Nintendo to become established when they were otherwise still relatively weak (and with the Japanese console market just hitting its first big boom).
Had the American game market been a bit more stable early on (fundamentally down to Atari's distribution and general management problems), Sega and Nintendo very well may have never directly entered that market. (though, on another note, Sega would have been a very good fit to license/collaborate through Coleco given the common choice of base hardware -SMS could have been modified to be Colecovision compatible, and there already were SG-1000 compatible CV clones)

The home console end of the video game industry has been steeped in big corporations from almost the very beginning . . . the arcade industry not so exclusively.

Also, Sega was already established as a major brand in the market by the time Sony came on the scene, so the biggest investments had already been made (mostly during the MD's life -to lesser extent with the SMS), so maintaining that market was the key. (which involved repeating some of the things they'd done with the MD -namely with their next-gen platform, not to mention continuing to push into the handheld market- as well as maintaining their mainstay cash cow and carefully positioning that for profitability and sustained competition with the SNES in the same market sector)

Sega made other mistakes that basically took them a step back from what they'd established in the MD's best days on the market, and on top of their monetary problems, they had to again build up PR to be competitive. (for consumers, investors, 3rd party publishers, etc) Bad luck and bad management decisions are what led to Sega's downfall as a console hardware maker . . . there's a lot in common with what happened to Atari. (for that matter, both Atari Inc and Atari Corp in different aspects . . . not so much Atari Games -particularly since the software/arcade only Sega managed much better in the long run than Atari Games, including the situation of the Sammy merger compared to Atari's Time Warner merger and then sale to Midway and eventual dismantling)


As to Sega's game or hardware quality. Really, please defend your position that Sega's "quality" of hardware and software wasn't better than their competitors? Are we talking about the popularity of the products determining quality, innovation determining quality, risk determining quality, longevity determining quality? I was specifically pointing to Sega's risk taking with new products and quantity of software and hardware releases during the 80s and 90s.
My point (in part) was that all that stuff is subjective, and if you compare a composite of what Sega, Nintendo, NEC, Sony, and contemporary 2nd and 3rd party developers/publishers were putting out, I really don't see any definitive edge in general. (or, if you look to the arcades specifically too . . . Sega and Namco were side by side with a lot of the technical innovations, and for the actual mainstay 2D games of the early 90s, Konami, Capcom, and SNK were massive competitors as well)

Sega was better in some areas, weaker in others, and not necessarily consistently so either. (certain categories could shift between different players) Hardware quality is something you could perhaps argue more definitively (ie more factual), and that definitely went back and forth consistently. (compare SG-1000 vs Famicom vs 7800 vs C64 vs SMS vs PC Engine vs Amiga vs MD vs SNES, etc -some with overall better technical merit as consumer game hardware designs in various respects, and some relatively definitively in terms of cost/complexity, release date, and overall performance -the hardware excellence of the Famicom certainly played a role in Nintendo becoming rooted as Japan's first massive home console success, in fact, I think that's one of the few cases in the industry where hardware played such a big role -there's some argument for the 2600 there too, particularly its cost to performance ratio)


Yup, anticompetitive megacorps escalate. That is what they do. What happens when things escalate for too long? *pop*
Only when management is crap . . . the 1982/83 crash never would have happened if Warner-Atari had solid business management and lack of harmful dual-management interference. If not for that, Atari, Coleco, and Mattel may all still have been major players to this day.
If James Morgan (or someone similarly capable) had taken over in '81 or even mid '82, the whole mess might have been avoided. (they'd still have been aggressively competitive -or anticompetitive when given the chance- megacorps, but healthier overall -and the "little guys" would have been a lot better off too . . . including the numbers of 3rd party developers who were damaged or destroyed by the crash -and even though Activision survived, it certainly wasn't the same)

Actually, having US megacorps specifically might have been better overall, especially with a few splitting the market and keeping eachother in check. The US market (not to mention Europe) already had antitrust laws in place and there had already been examples like Activision's court victory that opened things up and limited anti-competitive practices to some degree. The same things don't seem to have consistently applied in Japan, and that certainly became a huge problem with Nintendo. (technically speaking, there's absolutely no reason the Famicom couldn't have gone the way of the 2600 . . . or Intellivision, or Colecovision, or various other consoles or computers; there was no form of lock-out on the Famicom and only the matter of investing in reverse engineering the hardware to develop games without Nintendo's permission)

Europe is probably the exception overall, since they had relatively open competition from the start and a much bigger impact from viral marketing (and printed media) with a large number of competing platforms (consoles and computers) co-existed for over a decade before the mass market became redirected towards mega corps and such. (PC-compatibles became the definitive computing platform, consoles fell to the megacorps, mass media marketing became more definitive, etc)
Had there been more even competition in the US home computer market (perhaps on top of the console market crash being averted), things might have been different there too.


Bleem!, Sega, Working Designs, and Lik Sang. Core essentially lost its original talent directly because of Sony's exclusive Tomb Raider contract.
Bleem I totally agree with, but they weren't a game publisher/developer. Aside from that, I don't really agree with that analysis.
Working Designs screwed themselves over from the inside to a large extent . . . not really tied to Sony definitively AFIK.
What happened with Core was influenced by Sony, but really a conglomeration of things that all happened around that time. (probably starting with Center Gold's buyout/merger)

It's like arguing that Microsoft ruined RARE when a good chunk of the staff had already left due to creative differences in the Nintendo-influenced days . . . and still more assumptions for MS influencing decisions they may not have later on. (including things like what happened to certain IPs -Banjo Kazooie for example . . . it's a big assumption to blame MS for what happened with Nuts and Bolts rather than considering it was internal staff decisions and/or a combination of that --indeed, Grant Kurkhope made some interesting comments on that in his recent guest appearance on Game Grumps)


Look at how creativity almost precludes organization and systematic thought. Obviously a balance must be struck, but the way the industry is today thanks to companies like Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, EA, and Activision is the opposite extreme. Doing nothing unless it can be measured in focus groups will result in stagnation, has resulted in stagnation.
Relying on focus groups and other statistics is also flawed. The composite of market data should be a guide, not a strict set of rules to follow. Likewise, totally ignoring mass market interest is also a bad idea, at very least without moderation. (either in terms of how much "else" you put into given games or how many "other" game types you risk pushing over the current market staples -that would include both established genres that have fallen out of favor and/or testing the waters with new ideas in general)

Honestly, the current market isn't completely stagnant, but it's just progressing relatively slowly in the mainstream. As has happened in the past, new/independent studios are pushing the boundaries more, but this is perhaps more important than it has been in a while. That's not just on the software front, but potentially with upcoming new hardware competition too. (albeit it would have been a lot more interesting to see some new 3rd party competition pushing for a new generation of console hardware back a couple years ago with the existing consoles significantly aged and nothing else new on the horizon, especially with the lack of expandability of that aging hardware -I think 2010 in particular would seem to have been an interesting time to push that)

Vector2013
03-27-2013, 09:27 PM
85DJdDcyBN0

Black_Tiger
03-27-2013, 09:41 PM
85DJdDcyBN0

That's pretty cool. I never gave that game much attention as I'm not a fan of tennis (or sports) games.

gamevet
03-27-2013, 11:22 PM
A lot of that has been debunked though. There's a lot of evidence that upper management of SoJ and SoA were quite reasonably in touch over major plans as such. The problem arose over long term planning in general, and ever shifting market targets for certain products. (the 32x itself had several market targets that were rendered moot by 1995 -including countering the 3DO and Jaguar)

Has it? Did Stolar kill off the Saturn pre-maturely, for other reasons? He certainly left Sega of America's home division without a product to generate revenue, until the DC was launched.



Aside from that, the main ideas of the 32x still stood alongside the Saturn's release plans, and those roles had always been (and remained) more fitting to Sega's Western markets due to the price sensitivity of consoles there, the market slump at the time, and the much greater success of the Genesis (the latter applying specifically to using the add-on form factor).
We don't have intimate details on exactly what sort of plans there originally were for marketing the 32x and Saturn together, but in any case, the shifting dynamic in 1995 really screwed things up and Sega didn't handle the change well at all.
--In that context, with the 32x already on the market, it still could have made the most sense to continue support and try to build a low-end niche for that platform alongside the next-gen competition at very least in the short term (through 1996 -so until 5th gen consoles hit full mainstream). What Sega did do was far from that, of course, and ended up hurting pretty much all of their products in some way.

I don't see how Sega couldn't see it coming? The Sega CD had run its course, the Genesis console's sales were starting to decline, Atari and 3DO had launched new systems and the SNES was starting to explode on the marktetplace. Yeah, they could appeal to their current userbase at the time, but support for the device doesn't seem to suggest that it was really that great of an idea.




How do you know how much was being invested in studios pushing multimedia like that at the time? 10 million is really a drop in the bucket compared to the sort of investments many companies were making at the time for multimedia game software. Case in point with Sega too, they spent millions on actual multimedia game development budgets, many of which would fall under the same "wasteful" category I touched upon earlier. (those are cases of really wasting money IMO . . . investing in a centralized studio like that very well could have paid off both in the short and long run if managed tactfully)

Tom Zito's Digital Pictures started out for a little known system called Nemo. He obviously already had the means for a full-scale FMV production before Sega created that studio. Do you think Tom Zito needed that kind of studio to produce those cheesy FMV games?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Pictures


The company originated from an attempt to produce a game for the failed VHS-based NEMO game system. One of its first titles, Night Trap was originally produced as a title for the NEMO, before being converted for use with Sega's new Mega-CD. The mature themed content of Night Trap made it the source of some controversy. Nevertheless, the title was successful and Digital Pictures went on to create other full motion video-based titles primarily for Sega hardware. However, the company declined in the mid-1990s due to waning interest in full motion video games. Its final title, Maximum Surge went unreleased and was later repurposed into a film called Game Over.

They created a studio for Multimedia production, for a system that really wasn't capable of displaying FMV even close to what was being done in the arcades in the 80s. Once the 3DO and CDi came out, the FMV on the Sega CD looked really bad in comparison. It was just really bad planning overall. At least Japan understood what the Mega-CD was capable of and they created software that fit the system's design.




Of course, those big-budgets for games would become the norm and then be surpassed pretty quickly in the late 90s, but that's another topic in itself. ;)

And in terms of investment, we also have no solid figures on how much SoA spent on building other in-house North American studios, so there's not even definite context there.

I'm sure they've spent just as much for other prodution studios, but they were investing in something that had already been done in the 80's by guys like Don Bluth. Beyond Dragon's Lair, the other FMV based arcade games didn't fair so well and quickly disappeared from the marketplace. There was also a plan for a system called the Halcyon, that never went beyond a couple of demo units sold to investors and a port of Thayer's Quest to the 3DO in Japan.

http://www.mobygames.com/company/sega-multimedia-studio


Sega Multimedia Studio was a development studio established in 1993 to create FMV games. The studio was responsible for two titles; Jurassic Park and Wild Woody, before it was closed in 1995.

kool kitty89
03-28-2013, 03:27 AM
Has it? Did Stolar kill off the Saturn pre-maturely, for other reasons? He certainly left Sega of America's home division without a product to generate revenue, until the DC was launched.
There's a difference between problems caused by miscommunication and just plain bad management in general. I'd like to more finer details with exactly what was going on at the time, but I haven't seen any strong evidence that communication had a defining impact on the actions Stolar took in general. (both regarding Saturn and Dreamcast)


I don't see how Sega couldn't see it coming? The Sega CD had run its course, the Genesis console's sales were starting to decline, Atari and 3DO had launched new systems and the SNES was starting to explode on the marktetplace. Yeah, they could appeal to their current userbase at the time, but support for the device doesn't seem to suggest that it was really that great of an idea.
That's my main point. And it's why I've based most of my hypothetical arguments (and arguments on certain things being "bad ideas") in the context of reasonable foresight and understanding of the market in 1994 (or at other times too) rather than going by hindsight. (which has a totally different set of arguments)

From what I can tell from a technical design perspective, and from what I've gathered from actual statements made in regards to market design goals for the 32x, it was both intended to cut in as a next-gen platform (fitting into the early gen and lower-end segments -technically not that different from the Jaguar) while also appealing more specifically to existing Genesis owners (which made up a huge chunk of the market). With the intended results to expand on the established 16-bit market, blending it into the (so-called) 32-bit generation and also as a more general lower-end (more easily adopted) next-gen platform for the general consumer. (plus specific goals in bolstering revenue and PR . . . both those could have been done in many other ways)

And those goals make a good deal of sense, as does the 32x . . . until you look at Sega's overall situation with software and hardware development/release plans of the time, most obviously the conflict of interests with the Saturn and 32x in general. (as I've argued in detail before in my 32x alternate reality thread) In that regard, it simply doesn't make sense . . . even if they really felt the MD+CD and Saturn wouldn't be able to properly fill the mainstream market in the 1994-96 period (even with a push in late-gen 16-bit software to balance things out before the Saturn could hit mainstream), they had much better options to deal with that without the major conflicts the 32x offered.
The main argument being the Jupiter -in terms of what would have been workable in early 1994, not other arguments that Sega should have had better/different foresight with the Saturn design in general. The other argument would have been a less elaborate add-on to the 32x or just investing in on-cart enhancement more at the tail end of the system's life -albeit they should have started doing that way earlier than SVP, and with more subtle/modest/practical examples too (ie much cheaper/simpler, but still useful enhancement chips -sound, graphics or math coprocessing, or whatever). And, honestly, I'd lump the (non-addon) hardware enhancement in with "push for more software" in general, since they're effectively the same thing from the consumer perspective. (and in a certain context, using larger ROMs alone would be gradual hardware enhancement as the generation progressed . . . so you could just balance that with the cost/performance trade-offs of using various sorts of expansion chips -including RAM)


Tom Zito's Digital Pictures started out for a little known system called Nemo. He obviously already had the means for a full-scale FMV production before Sega created that studio. Do you think Tom Zito needed that kind of studio to produce those cheesy FMV games?
Taking inflation into account, he probably invested a hell of a lot more than Sega did with that studio . . . even just the 2 games produced in the late 80s would have been done at unprecedented expense even by early 90s video game standards. (prior to other FMV really getting pushed) Whether or not they had a solidified internal studio or did heavier outsourcing would be another matter. (someone would still have had to invest in the studios being outsourced to, though . . . but that's where the whole "specialization" thing I mentioned previously comes into play)


They created a studio for Multimedia production, for a system that really wasn't capable of displaying FMV even close to what was being done in the arcades in the 80s. Once the 3DO and CDi came out, the FMV on the Sega CD looked really bad in comparison. It was just really bad planning overall. At least Japan understood what the Mega-CD was capable of and they created software that fit the system's design.
Japanese mmultimedia examples on the MCD are pretty bad on average, with Game Arts being one of the stand-out exceptions (and who knows how much they invested into internal multimedia resources to facilitate some of that) . . . in spite of the lack of investment in any sort of reasonable video compression, Wolf Team certainly invested a lot to optimize games for the system (from art conversion to audio -including quite a few cases of enhancements over the arcade originals in the case of laser disc games), and Sega (or whoever they outsourced to) at least did it reasonably well with their version of Popful Mail.
--That-is, unless you meant JP developers on the PCE CD . . . that's probably a better example of decent multimedia usage. (especially with the limitations of the original PCE CD)

However, I will also maintain that Sega misused their internal and external multimedia resources of the time and put way too much into plain old FMV stuff and not enough into broader areas of multimedia to allow hybrids of older/established gameplay styles with various multimedia enhancements (cutscenes and/or in-game voice acting, and/or streaming animation effects, etc -few games made really good use of that). Investing in cartoon animated stuff would have been a lot more visually attractive too (and very fitting to game design styles of the time, too) . . . Adventures of Batman and Robin did that quite well, but there wasn't a lot of that in general. (particularly since western developers got the hang of video compression on the platform far better than most Japanese developers, you had the relatively primitive early Segafilm stuff, then Sega's "Cinepak" and then you also had Rocket Science Games' compression format -looks similar to cinepak, and then there's the really interesting scheme used for Space Ace and Dragon's Lair -relatively specific to that style of animation, and it works exceptionally well . . . IMO the best overall cartoon animation conversion on the system -then again, the cinepak style formats could probably cater better to compressing cartoon animation too, but it would be more a matter of the compressor/encoder to be optimized for that over live action or general purpose compression -among other things, a lower dither threshold could be applied to animation and be more aesthetically pleasing)

I'm getting off topic though. My point was that the studio itself (or for that matter, all of Sega's multimedia investments on the MCD) weren't the problem, but just the direction they took in actually applying those resources became the problem. Multimedia shouldn't be synonymous with "FMV interactive cinema" type games. And, again, PCs handled that a lot better than the Sega CD (or 3DO for that matter) in terms of diverse usage of multimedia during the multimedia revolution. (albeit part of that was probably related to the transitional period of multimedia content on floppy disk based games, and the inherent constraints of that limited format guiding developers more than the massive capacity of CDs . . . though the hardware limits of the PCE CD also kind of did that too -the fact that red book audio was also a huge selling point for the system in Japan would have had an impact too)


I'm sure they've spent just as much for other prodution studios, but they were investing in something that had already been done in the 80's by guys like Don Bluth. Beyond Dragon's Lair, the other FMV based arcade games didn't fair so well and quickly disappeared from the marketplace. There was also a plan for a system called the Halcyon, that never went beyond a couple of demo units sold to investors and a port of Thayer's Quest to the 3DO in Japan.
Again, the multimedia studio wasn't an FMV studio, it was used for a wide variety of applications of multimedia in games, not just streaming video (though inclusive of that) . . . and Sega spent a TON of money on FMV that was largely unrelated to that studio as well anyway. :p

Investing in a multimedia studio (and multimedia in general) is a separate argument from whether Sega was wrong to push interactive movie type games like they did. (for the latter, I agree that was a mistake . . . there should have been only a scant handful of such games if that -beyond those already produced in the 80s- but that's not mutually exclusive with actually applying multimedia content in more varied and useful ways and leading the way for what was more firmly established in the late 1990s up to today in multimedia heavy game content)

sheath
04-01-2013, 03:27 PM
I'm watching this right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqkNiK2JTE

Huh, all NullDC footage. That emulator has come along, but it obviously can't handle the Dreamcast's PVRDC Modifier Volumes for shadows, and I don't remember Virtua Tennis having pop up on the court....

Vector2013
04-01-2013, 07:22 PM
I'm watching this right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqkNiK2JTE

Huh, all NullDC footage. That emulator has come along, but it obviously can't handle the Dreamcast's PVRDC Modifier Volumes for shadows, and I don't remember Virtua Tennis having pop up on the court....

Cool video sheath. Very professional video. Wish I could make videos like that, backgrounds with 360 transitions, hd video quality, cool intro. Will emulators/computers ever be good enough to run Saturn or DC perfectly fairly soon ?

sheath
04-01-2013, 07:26 PM
Emulators will never play games like real hardware, that is a pipe dream. With 3D games like the Dreamcast is capable of, reasonably enhanced "HD" emulation is a reasonable expectation.

Vector2013
04-01-2013, 07:28 PM
Okay, glad I got my consoles then.

AdamL
04-07-2013, 07:32 AM
No, if it had sold extremely well, Sega probably would have stayed in the industry. They did have some initial plans for a new system in the works, didn't they?

Not that I'm aware of. Here's what Isao Okawa was saying back in November 1999 (http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/11/12/sega_moots_console_hardware_exit/):

"I will say that the future doesn't necessarily lie in the hardware business," said Okawa. "I think in the future there is the possibility of Sega becoming a software-only company... "Even if Dreamcast does sell, we will make that shift."

Of course, he ended up dying right after Sega left the hardware business, so who knows what actually would have happened if the Dreamcast had been more successful.



Uh, yeah, no. If you seriously can't tell that games like Luigi's Mansion or Super Mario Sunshine have far better graphics than anything the DC could do... well, you're completely wrong, that's for sure, and aren't looking very closely either.

Umm, this seems like a completely unprovable statement to me. Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?


Those games use all kinds of visual effects you don't see on the DC, and I wouldn't be surprised if they push more polygons than you see on the DC, too.

I'd bet that you'd be wrong on that, but I don't know of any way to check the polygon counts of Gamecube games.


Now, Animal Crossing I'll give you -- that game is basically a slightly enhanced N64 port, after all -- but the rest of those? No way! Mario Sunshine, Luigi's Mansion, and MK Double Dash have issues, but their graphics aren't one of them. I was just playing Luigi's Mansion recently, actually, for the first time; I passed on it back at launch because it sounded too short and questionably fun. Well, the graphics are fantastic (I'd heard they were good, but under-rated them before playing it...), but the gameplay? Yeah, that's not so good. I like the adventure aspects, but the combat's not much fun, and it is quite short.

Where did I say that those games' graphics were an issue? They look fine.

Can you honestly say that Mario Kart Double Dash really looks much better than Daytona USA or Looney Tunes Space Race on the Dreamcast? I can't. Super Smash Bros. looks pretty similar to Power Stone.

I can't think of any great comparable to Luigi's Mansion's art style on the Dreamcast. Maybe Super Magnetic Neo. Pretty nice looking game in certain parts:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNydUYfrDm4

I agree with you that Luigi's Mansion isn't very fun though!


Getting back to the point, the GC game I got first, when I bought the system shortly after it released, was Rogue Leader. And yeah, there's no way in the world the Dreamcast could ever have done that.

Again, this is another completely unprovable statement.


But anyway. I had, and have, some DC ports for the GC, such as Sonic Adventure 2, Phantasy Star Online 1+2, and Skies of Arcadia, and some Naomi ports, like Beach Spikers and Super Monkey Ball. Those two DC ports particularly clearly do not use the Gamecube's power; you can tell that they're ports from a less powerful system, and both were visually enhanced for the GC, too. Beach Spikers and Super Monkey Ball look a little better, but still you can tell. The same is true for other games like Billy Hatcher... that game still looks more Dreamcast than Gamecube. I like the Dreamcast look well enough, so I don't mind too much, but it is true. My much bigger issue is with how abysmal most Sonic Team game cameras were... but still, purely comparing the technical graphics, say, Skies of Arcadia is no match for Baten Kaitos. Overall Skies is my favorite JRPG ever, but the graphics clearly are dated for a Gamecube game.

I'd say Sonic Adventure 2's and Phantasy Star Online's graphics reflect what most video games actually looked like at the time of its release rather than the system they were designed for. Same with Sonic Adventure 1, although that game's graphics were far above anything else on the market when it first came out.

Doesn't Baiten Kaitos have pre-rendered backgrounds? That alone would make it a really poor comparison to Skies of Arcadia, even ignoring the fact that that one of them came out 3 years before the other.

And Beach Spikers was a NAOMI2 game, while Super Monkey Ball was completely remade for the Gamecube, so I have no idea what you're talking about there.


They're both first/second party FPSes released in 2001... I know, Outtrigger is an arena game, but I don't know how much better it fares compared to UT or Q3, considering how absurdly miniscule Outtriggers' levels are... I mean, it's a fun game, but the levels are far too small.

Outtrigger was released in 1999 in arcades, so you're not even right about the dates. It's a horrible comparison.


I'm watching this right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqkNiK2JTE

Huh, all NullDC footage. That emulator has come along, but it obviously can't handle the Dreamcast's PVRDC Modifier Volumes for shadows, and I don't remember Virtua Tennis having pop up on the court....

That pop-up is only there because the emulator is forcing the game into widescreen - The game is just cutting out stuff that can't normally be seen on screen.

j_factor
04-07-2013, 07:40 AM
New rule: A Black Falcon is not allowed to say "visual effects" without identifying specific visual effects.

TVC 15
04-07-2013, 11:11 AM
I really don't get the fan-wank over Rouge Squadron on Gamecube, the game does do a good job at showcasing some nice environments and lighting, and runs at a fair old clip, but its a game that actually plays to the Gamecube's strengths, lots of snazzy EMBM texturing etc, consider for a moment in a slightly abstract sense that its mainly lots of geometry moving around, just boxes, this isn't multiple characters traversing dynamic environments with a lot of complex animation. The Flipper in Gamecube was actually quite weak in some key areas and didn't have a lot of vertex performance, and required a lot of assistance from the main CPU when doing anything like bones or skinning for animation, its fortunate the Gekko had enough grunt.

Metroid Prime was a much better showcase for GC, fancy embossed textures, nice lighting, and lots of well animated characters in complex environments. But this is another game the cleverly splits large areas into chunks to help stream areas of the game seamlessly.

Vis a Vis, the area where the Dreamcast should have suffered in was maintaining large high polygon environments, whilst handling A.I, animation, etc, since T&L plus game logic all ran on the SH-4. But Shenmue does a pretty good job showing the Dreamcast didn't do bad in that regard. This might be a good bone to throw out there for Kool_Kitty and similar armchair enthusiasts, but regarding the Dreamcasts limited expansion in regards to more technically advanced competitors with more ram, the Dreamcasts B-Bus (where the modem is attached) maybe could have been used for a Harddrive interface, I think it tops out at under 50MB/s. That would have been really cool and alleviated any ram bottlenecks by having a harddrive stream data, and could have emphasised the Dreamcast's internet connected features for storing downloads and additional game content.

Yeah, the Dreamcast is awesome.

Black_Tiger
04-07-2013, 02:18 PM
As ridiculous as it is to base the DC's maximum graphic ability on a couple years of development, especially when the bar was much lower durinv the early days of an emerging generation, for all we know Sega might have released some sort of secret micro code later on that would have unlocked all new potential.

kool kitty89
04-09-2013, 12:21 AM
Vis a Vis, the area where the Dreamcast should have suffered in was maintaining large high polygon environments, whilst handling A.I, animation, etc, since T&L plus game logic all ran on the SH-4. But Shenmue does a pretty good job showing the Dreamcast didn't do bad in that regard. This might be a good bone to throw out there for Kool_Kitty and similar armchair enthusiasts, but regarding the Dreamcasts limited expansion in regards to more technically advanced competitors with more ram, the Dreamcasts B-Bus (where the modem is attached) maybe could have been used for a Harddrive interface, I think it tops out at under 50MB/s. That would have been really cool and alleviated any ram bottlenecks by having a harddrive stream data, and could have emphasised the Dreamcast's internet connected features for storing downloads and additional game content.

Yeah, the Dreamcast is awesome.
How about if they'd released a broadband adapter module to replace the modem and included an IDE interface with that and optional HDD. (or maybe not optional depending on cost vs establishing better lowest common denominator standard)

sheath
04-09-2013, 10:29 AM
I think with the speed of loading already with the GD-ROM drive what the Dreamcast really needed is a RAM upgrade. Up to or over 64MB of SDRAM would have really given the hardware a chance to shine later on in the generation. Even that though, judging from Shenmue and Crazy Taxi, wasn't all that necessary except for true sandbox games.

bultje112
04-09-2013, 06:31 PM
a faster processor was more need I think

kool kitty89
04-09-2013, 08:04 PM
I think with the speed of loading already with the GD-ROM drive what the Dreamcast really needed is a RAM upgrade. Up to or over 64MB of SDRAM would have really given the hardware a chance to shine later on in the generation. Even that though, judging from Shenmue and Crazy Taxi, wasn't all that necessary except for true sandbox games.
This is something that's true for ALL mainstream/long-term market consoles with mass storage media. 5th generation up to today, RAM expansion is the single most universally useful type of expansion. (would have been most useful in the 7th gen given the exceptionally long duration)
Kind of funny that we do get HDD upgrade options with modern consoles, but not RAM. :p (and, likewise, the DC itself has provisions for expansion catering to HDD, but not RAM)

Cutting down games to run decently on the DC's limited graphics and (more so in some cases) CPU performance is a lot more doable in most cases than games really designed around needing more RAM. In terms of graphics/CPU limitations, pretty much anything on PS2 could have been done acceptably well (at the very least) on the DC if it had more RAM. That's perhaps less true for some GC games, and more so for some Xbox exclusives in particular . . . but I suppose it also depends on how you define "acceptable."
For that reason, an added 16 MB of main RAM probably would have made the most sense overall. (so 16+16+8+2= 42 MB total, so definitely enough to be well within the requirements for any and all GC or PS2 specific games)

Bottino
05-02-2013, 08:20 PM
I recenty bought my second Dreamcast.Spend R$ 450,00 on it. Totally worth it and i'm going have to spend some money to get much more games.
It was a machine that was way ahead of its time and , for such i say that next-gen is the Dreamcast:cool:.

Knuckle Duster
05-05-2013, 06:50 PM
The thing I appreciate the most about Dreamcast was it's ability to make Zoltor believe that the console's cache memory filled up, eventually bricked itself, and forced you to buy a new one as some sort of greedy profit scheme.

zetastrike
05-05-2013, 07:13 PM
I recenty bought my second Dreamcast.Spend R$ 450,00 on it. Totally worth it and i'm going have to spend some money to get much more games.
It was a machine that was way ahead of its time and , for such i say that next-gen is the Dreamcast:cool:.

Is that expensive? Are Dreamcasts hard to come by in Brazil?

Tripredacus
05-05-2013, 07:18 PM
Is that expensive? Are Dreamcasts hard to come by in Brazil?

Well its more than I'd pay, TBH. Thats over $200 USD I think. But Bottino did not say what Dreamcast he got, if it was a Tectoy one or other version.

Bottino
05-05-2013, 07:38 PM
Is that expensive? Are Dreamcasts hard to come by in Brazil?


Well its more than I'd pay, TBH. Thats over $200 USD I think. But Bottino did not say what Dreamcast he got, if it was a Tectoy one or other version.

Actually, i paid $90,00 for the DC plus $50,00 for the shipping in eBay.Mine is the American model.It should have cost approx. 280,00 for me but here the taxes for international transactions above $50,00 USD are criminal.
The thing is that the one i got was a good deal( it was almost new,came boxed, with manuals, a controller, VMU and a game) and to find one in those conditions here would be even more expensive(when it comes to eletronics , things tend to be overprice here).
Also, my biggest concern was the use of crappy pirated games on the DC, something very common here(i had that problem when i got my first one in 2001, which already came with issues).

zetastrike
05-05-2013, 07:42 PM
Brazil is a PAL country, isn't it? Would you need a converter to use it or do PAL TVs take an NTSC signal?

The Jackal
05-05-2013, 07:52 PM
Actually, i paid $90,00 for the DC plus $50,00 for the shipping in eBay.

Ouch.

Bottino
05-05-2013, 07:59 PM
Brazil is a PAL country, isn't it? Would you need a converter to use it or do PAL TVs take an NTSC signal?

I believe it was, but i think newer TVs are NTSC. Usually the TVs here came with multiple settings(mine has PAL-M, PAL-N and NTSC) so no problem there.



Ouch.

When i'm playing Power Stone 2 with my girl or my brother is all cool.;)

sheath
06-30-2013, 04:31 PM
Moved from the N64 thread.


I have eyes. And all of these consoles. And a lot of games. And when i see games like God of War 2, GT3/4, Okami and many other of the best looking PS2 games i don't need marketing to convince me its more powerful than the Dreamcast. Sega's console was wonderful and a beast by 1998 standards. It didn't deserve to die like that and it probably deserves its hardcore cult status and the love it gets from people. But i think its fans are carried away a bit.

Okay then, God of War 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F9Ndn4Se-I

Sword of the Berserk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSSqFi6ii-c


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gfzTYKbR9w

Draconus Cult of the Wyrm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awGtqDq7xU8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npbOTsz_pnc

I wish I could find the Dragon fight in Draconus, but apparently youtubers can't finish the game.Anyway, Phantasy Star Online has some big bosses (http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSLLgTvzdSs).

As for Gran Turismo 4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mXl7Seiiso) and and Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgDY9I-Ff84), I'd put them up against F355 Challenge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdPAJCnru3g) and Test Drive Le Mans (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUR9eU0fGM0) both technically and graphically. Considering when development began and ended for the two Dreamcast games I think they hold up quite admirably. Actually, I don't even need any caveats for either, they have better physics and AI than any Gran Turismo game and they look at least as good. Both games are on PS2 as well, though I wouldn't recommend Le Mans 24hrs as it didn't translate very well.



I mean you can argue that PS1 has better graphics than N64. I agree its arguable. Both consoles are pretty close anyway overall and have completely different visual treats and compromises. I can see how Spyro has better graphics than Banjo or Conker for some even though i don't agree personally. But i do not see how any Dreamcast game can reach the visual complexity of God of War 2, Okami, GTA San Andreas, Silent Hill 3, Burnout 3, GT4, Shadow of Colossus and a bunch of whatever games i'm forgetting. It has sharper textures but that's it.

To that i can agree. But i wouldn't bet on it. Also, didn't Shenmue pushed the hardware enough? I haven't played it for many years and i don't remember it well.

I'm not even sure where to start with this, you just rattled off a bunch of games. If it's sand box games you think the Dreamcast couldn't do I'd say that the only thing it would need is slightly smaller zones per load. Since the Dreamcast could load a full level in less than 5 seconds, as seen in its top games like Crazy Taxi 1+2, this wouldn't be a gameplay killer.

I'll post some close ups and broad screenshots later today to compare texture quality and level size if I can.

Soulis
06-30-2013, 04:35 PM
Well, the God of War video looks much better in my eyes.

sheath
06-30-2013, 04:58 PM
What specifically looks better to you? Specifically to the assertion that the PS2 was technically so advanced that the Dreamcast wouldn't or couldn't have kept up year for year into 2005, I just don't see much of a difference.

Grand Theft Auto San Andreas:
http://assets2.ignimgs.com/2004/12/17/grand-theft-auto-san-andreas-20041216051444222-1011205.jpg

Shenmue II
http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2001/dc/shenmue2/shenmue2_0914_screen018.jpg

Grand Theft Auto San Andreas:
http://assets2.ignimgs.com/2004/12/17/grand-theft-auto-san-andreas-20041216051451409-1011212_640w.jpg

Shenmue II (note the hands and digits)
http://assets1.ignimgs.com/2001/04/04/bg30-216092_640w.jpg

Grand Theft Auto San Andreas:
http://assets1.ignimgs.com/2004/10/29/grand-theft-auto-san-andreas-20041029021912186-978389_640w.jpg

Headhunter:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/20731-headhunter-dreamcast-screenshot-use-your-bike-to-transport.jpg

Crazy Taxi 2:
http://www.luc-maitre.fr/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/dreamcast-crazy.jpg

TrekkiesUnite118
06-30-2013, 05:04 PM
Well here's another interesting comparison we can make. Phantasy Star Universe vs Phantasy Star Online.

PSO Pros:
Large Areas. Each area has lots of rooms and can take anywhere from 10-30 minutes to get through a piece, maybe even longer.
Lots of unique Textures
Textures are nice and crisp
Dynamic Lighting (Only on Dreamcast and original PC port)
Lots of different enemy types in each area
You can equip any item in your inventory instantly at any time.
Recovery items work instantly
Bosses don't stop to load inbetween different forms.

Cons:
Lots of room recycling.
Lots of Item resknning
Gameplay is a bit more clunky and restricted
Only 4 People in your party at at time
Limited to only 100 people in a lobby at a time (But all can be seen and viewable at once)

Phantasy Star Universe:
Pros:
Up to 6 people per party
Less room recycling resulting in more unique areas and maps
Less item recycling resulting in more unique weapons
Smoother and less restrictive gameplay
Can have as many as 1000 people in a lobby at a given time (though only about 10-20 are visible at a time)
Some nice transparency and bloom effects
More polygons used on character models.

Cons:
Less Texture variety
More bland and washed out textures
Massive amounts of slow down
Limited to only 3 enemy types per area.
You can only instantly equip the 6 weapons in your action palette, the others have to be swapped in to be used.
Some times there's a lag while a weapon on your action palette loads in when you select it
There's a lag when you use recovery items
Areas are small and broken into blocks making them feel very short by comparison
Boss battles pause and load anywhere from 10-30 seconds between changing forms

There's a couple more issues I'm probably forgetting, but it should be noted that the issues I've mentioned for PSU mostly boil down to PS2 memory constraints. The issues either don't exist on the 360 and PC ports, or they went away on the other ports when they dropped PS2 support. The only one that was common among all was Slowdown, with 360 having it the worst. PSU runs at 30fps on the PS2 and 60fps on PC and 360. PSO runs at 30fps on all platforms.

Soulis
06-30-2013, 05:33 PM
GTA has more stuff going on than Shenmue. Also, Shenmue has next to no lighting and wooden animation.

Since we like posting pictures:

http://drowningpuck.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/okami-20080215103820578_640w.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/129/920500_20060510_screen002.jpg

http://i.testfreaks.com/images/products/600x400/203/zone-of-the-enders-the-2nd-runner.3200971.jpg

http://cdn-static.gamekult.com/gamekult-com/images/photos/00/00/38/26/ME0000382603_2.jpg

http://dlb-network.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/shadow_colossus-759239.jpg

http://www.ntsc-uk.com/reviews/ps2/SilentHill3/02.jpg

http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2003/news/01/16/konami/silenthill3_screen001.jpg

TrekkiesUnite118
06-30-2013, 05:42 PM
Aside from Silent Hill 3, I don't see much in those shots that would be beyond Dreamcast abilities. Okami comes down to mostly art style with a few special effects here and there. I don't think the Dreamcast would have any more trouble running it than the PS2.

Gran Turismo 4 isn't that impressive to me. Sure the cars are shiny, but beyond that you can see a lot of flaws. the ground textures are a bit bland, behind the high detail stuff you see while driving there's a lot of shitty low res textures and cheap models on par with Saturn and PS1 racers. Look behind the Bridgestone sign in your shot. The hill and trees look laughably shitty. You can tell they put most of the detail into the signs, cars, road, and the aprons along the road, then beyond that it's all shit.

Semmie
06-30-2013, 05:45 PM
guys what is the better pso server for dc at this moment? sylverant or schtserv?

Soulis
06-30-2013, 06:17 PM
Aside from Silent Hill 3, I don't see much in those shots that would be beyond Dreamcast abilities. Okami comes down to mostly art style with a few special effects here and there. I don't think the Dreamcast would have any more trouble running it than the PS2.
How about this then? (20+ cars @60fps + weather effects):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt0QGaf7LhI&feature=youtu.be

Someone mentioned it on that Gaf topic. I don't play F1 games but this one looks amazing.

TrekkiesUnite118
06-30-2013, 06:55 PM
Daytona USA on the Dreamcast has 40 cars at 60fps:

SeDWBdUYSZ4

Yeah, to my knowledge it doesn't have weather effects, but I honeslty don't see much of a difference between the rain mist coming off those F1 cars vs the Smoke coming off the tires in Daytona. All it's missing is the Rain itself and the drops on the screen. And honestly I can't really tell from that PS2 video if it's real rain or just a 2D overlay on top of the everything else.