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Moirai
11-27-2013, 05:14 PM
Today Sega's Dreamcast turns 15 years old.

Hard to believe it's been that long... of course being only 18 I was just a small child at the time. My earliest memory of the DC is Jet Grind Radio at funcoland during the twilight days of the DC. Also seeing Sonic Adventure 2 commercials on TV.

What are you guy's memories of the DC from the past 15 years? Its hard to believe games are still coming out for it... it was the true winner of its generation. How many Gamecube or Xbox games do you see coming out since they were discontinued? The PS2 is a strange exception, of course :)

tomaitheous
11-27-2013, 05:26 PM
I remember seeing some football game on a huge multiscreen-rear-project setup at Best Buy. I thought it looked incredibly real. Even if I didn't go for sports games.

But the killer game I remember selling me on the Dreamcast (besides that awesome opening demo for SA1), was the Soul Caliber game. Watching footage of that game, just blew my mind. The graphics, animation.... man. It was a very exciting time. It meant the end of nasty 32bit era 3D graphics.

evildragon
11-27-2013, 05:37 PM
It meant the end of nasty 32bit era 3D graphics.

But the SH4 is 32-bit. <_<

tomaitheous
11-27-2013, 05:40 PM
But the SH4 is 32-bit. <_<
;-_-

FuturePrimitive
11-27-2013, 05:41 PM
My earliest memories were playing the Dreamcast at a friend's house. I was kinda jealous, since it blew away my PSone (the little white one) and N64. So many games were arcade perfect or close to it: Soul Calibur, Marvel vs. Capcom series, Street Fighter series, Crazy Taxi, SEGA Rally 2...

Then all of those crazy unique experiences like Chu Chu Rocket, Space Channel 5, Jet Grind Radio, Skies of Arcadia...

The SEGA Dreamcast was an immense system. It was truly ahead of its time. It's a damn shame it wasn't given much of a chance to thrive. I'm proud to finally have one after waiting about 13-14 years. I only have 1 game for it. :|

Yharnamresident
11-27-2013, 05:53 PM
The Dreamcast still isn't legal? god I can't wait anymore years


When I hear 32-bit era, I think PS1/Saturn/N64. Dreamcast is in the Enhanced-Definition era.

Bottino
11-27-2013, 06:01 PM
Dreamcast... the last true hardcore console created.
When the DC was announced, i was still playing my Mega Drive. When i saw the Sonic Adventure demo, that blew my mind away; nothing at the time came even close to that.

http://global3.memecdn.com/xbone-wil-end-the-same-way-as-dreamcast-did_o_1691501.jpg

sheath
11-27-2013, 06:14 PM
Dreamcast, when hope for entirely new games still lived and when that hope died.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWdbbGIS-WI

TmEE
11-27-2013, 06:20 PM
I remember seeing Dreamcast stuff on sega.com in 1999 or 2000, I so badly wanted one... I finally got one 2005. They were not sold in my country :/

4Runner
11-27-2013, 06:22 PM
Dreamcast... the last true hardcore console created.
When the DC was announced, i was still playing my Mega Drive. When i saw the Sonic Adventure demo, that blew my mind away; nothing at the time came even close to that.

http://global3.memecdn.com/xbone-wil-end-the-same-way-as-dreamcast-did_o_1691501.jpg

I couldn't have put it better than that. You sir are incredible! I am glad that I never got into anything past the original Xbox. I do have a Dreamcast, but I don't play it because I just can't get into CD games.

4Runner
11-27-2013, 06:24 PM
Wait a minute...I thought the Dreamcast launched on 09/09/1999. Did I miss something here?

grieverr
11-27-2013, 06:27 PM
Wasn't the DC released 9/9/99?

That being said, the DC was the first time I felt "the next generation". Soul Calibur was so jaw-dropping beautiful, that it still holds up well today. The vibe and feeling I got from Phantasy Star Online really transported me there. And online play with that game was just magical. I can't say enough good things about the DC.

It's probably also the only console that all of my gaming buddies agreed on. We've always had a sega/nintendo, sony/microsoft split. But the Dreamcast? We ALL loved it!

sheath
11-27-2013, 06:34 PM
I am pretty sure somebody decided to grant the Dreamcast its original Japanese birthdate in 1998. Virtua Fighter 3 for you!

Moirai
11-27-2013, 06:46 PM
I am pretty sure somebody decided to grant the Dreamcast its original Japanese birthdate in 1998. Virtua Fighter 3 for you!

yup. the original release date was 11/27/1998

midnightrider
11-27-2013, 07:18 PM
Dreamcast, when hope for entirely new games still lived and when that hope died.

Couldn't agree more. When I reflect on it, the last time I truly enjoyed a console was the Dreamcast. Not that what followed was horrible, but that was when I started to notice the heavy reliance on FMV's(though there was Sword of the Berserk, Shenmue, Soul Reaver, and even both Sonic Adventure games...)

sheath
11-27-2013, 07:24 PM
Couldn't agree more. When I reflect on it, the last time I truly enjoyed a console was the Dreamcast. Not that what followed was horrible, but that was when I started to notice the heavy reliance on FMV's(though there was Sword of the Berserk, Shenmue, Soul Reaver, and even both Sonic Adventure games...)

Shenmue practically invented the fad of FMV style real time cutscenes as well. Honestly, a good number of Sega's offerings on the Dreamcast seemed like they would genuinely strike gold with the mainstreamers. The fact that games like Jet Set Radio and Shenmue did not sell in AAA numbers was one of the first things that tipped me off to the gruesome fact that mainstreamers worship brand first, and do_not like gameplay innovation.

Yharnamresident
11-27-2013, 07:40 PM
Wow Jet Grind Radio was released 4 days after the PS2. I bet Jet Grind Radio was in serious demand after being sold out everywhere, copies of the game were being sold on Ebay for $500.

4Runner
11-27-2013, 07:43 PM
yup. the original release date was 11/27/1998

Ah I see, well it's obvious why I was confused because I don't live in Japan so that date means nothing to me. C'est la vie!

4Runner
11-27-2013, 07:45 PM
Sword of the Berserk and Soul Reaver....man were those games awesome! The first time I saw the sword in Berserk I was like DAMN, are you serious with that shit?!

The Jackal
11-27-2013, 07:46 PM
Wow Jet Grind Radio was released 4 days after the PS2. I bet Jet Grind Radio was in serious demand after being sold out everywhere, copies of the game were being sold on Ebay for $500.

I got my copy last year, brand new, still in it's original shrinkwrap, for the sum of 1.

tz101
11-27-2013, 08:02 PM
Got my first DC system about three years ago from a Craigslist ad. Since have picked up three others through yard sales and thrift finds, including a CIB console that looks almost new for $10. I don't remember much about Dreamcast when it launched other than not seeing it in stores around my area as much as PSX or N64. In looking at the games and graphics on DC games, I am struck as to why Sega decided to bail after all. Could they not have stuck it out as a second-tier player in that generation, much like Nintendo did with Gamecube? Maybe not as much interest in Sega's 1st party titles at that time to keep the ship afloat? It still boggles my mind how quick they threw up the white flag to Sony.

Yharnamresident
11-27-2013, 08:21 PM
I got my copy last year, brand new, still in it's original shrinkwrap, for the sum of 1.

Maybe the game's street value would be higher, if it wasn't released on such a bad date.


Got my first DC system about three years ago from a Craigslist ad. Since have picked up three others through yard sales and thrift finds, including a CIB console that looks almost new for $10. I don't remember much about Dreamcast when it launched other than not seeing it in stores around my area as much as PSX or N64. In looking at the games and graphics on DC games, I am struck as to why Sega decided to bail after all. Could they not have stuck it out as a second-tier player in that generation, much like Nintendo did with Gamecube? Maybe not as much interest in Sega's 1st party titles at that time to keep the ship afloat? It still boggles my mind how quick they threw up the white flag to Sony.

Its either go third party, or go bankrupt.

4Runner
11-27-2013, 09:08 PM
The Dreamcast would've survived if it included a software DVD program to play DVD's. I think that's why it suffered and eventually died.

sheath
11-27-2013, 09:15 PM
The Dreamcast would've survived if it included a software DVD program to play DVD's. I think that's why it suffered and eventually died.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18YpWyeUPP0

For the 1000nth time, would any consumer have bought a $400 Dreamcast not made by the wonderous not-a-gaming company Sony? If so, DVD in 1998 might have been a good idea. Microsoft and Nintendo elected against it even in 2001, except the former who figured a way to make more money on it after all.

Knuckle Duster
11-27-2013, 09:31 PM
A lot of people seem to forget that the PS2's edge was letting you play PSX games & letting you use your game controllers.

DVD player hype was still hype. Not everybody bought into it, most people made the jump because they had a strong library of old and new games.

tz101
11-27-2013, 09:42 PM
Its either go third party, or go bankrupt.

Why for them and not for Nintendo? They played 2nd fiddle for two straight generations if you also count N64 and did not end up in bankruptcy.

Yharnamresident
11-27-2013, 10:02 PM
Why for them and not for Nintendo? They played 2nd fiddle for two straight generations if you also count N64 and did not end up in bankruptcy.

Because Nintendo still had the Game Boy Colour/Game Boy Advance for making profit.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18YpWyeUPP0

For the 1000nth time, would any consumer have bought a $400 Dreamcast not made by the wonderous not-a-gaming company Sony? If so, DVD in 1998 might have been a good idea. Microsoft and Nintendo elected against it even in 2001, except the former who figured a way to make more money on it after all.

Bernie Stolar we are reminded of your idiocy on every post on this board!!

Bottino
11-27-2013, 10:33 PM
No console, no matter how good it were, would stand a chance against Sony and the hyper-mega-fucking hype surrounding it.
"The Playstation 2 can process 40 million polygons per second" "The Playstation 2 can launch rocket missiles" "you can watch porn on it" "Sony has a pile of cash to anyone that gives it generous reviews".

There were never competition to the PS2 because there could be none.

old man
11-27-2013, 10:39 PM
15 years? Damn I feel old.

grieverr
11-27-2013, 11:20 PM
Maybe the game's street value would be higher, if it wasn't released on such a bad date.

It probably also doesn't help (the value of the game) that you can still easily get the game on Xbox Live/PSN.

Thierry Henry
11-28-2013, 12:01 AM
No official distribution of the DC on these shores. By that time this part of the world was firmly established as "playstation country".

I bought my first DC in 2007. I remember hooking it up via VGA and thinking (and still do) that the visuals look fantastic! I can only imagine the reaction of gamers back in the day going from the N64 to the Dreamcast. Visually must have seemed like stepping out of the stone-age and smack bang into the modern world.

sheath
11-28-2013, 03:03 AM
No official distribution of the DC on these shores. By that time this part of the world was firmly established as "playstation country".

I bought my first DC in 2007. I remember hooking it up via VGA and thinking (and still do) that the visuals look fantastic! I can only imagine the reaction of gamers back in the day going from the N64 to the Dreamcast. Visually must have seemed like stepping out of the stone-age and smack bang into the modern world.

I remember crassly dismissing the Dreamcast as "yet another Playstation FMV" at Gameworld in San Antonio. The CRT was about 27inch and I saw the Namco logo on the game, the rest I assumed was non game graphics. The clerk was quick to correct me and my interest was piqued. Sonic Adventure and Powerstone at a hard core gaming friend's house prior to launch convinced me to buy that little white box at launch.

Lan Di
11-28-2013, 03:22 AM
If Sega included a DVD drive in the Dreamcast, Sega would still be in the console business today. Piracy would have never been in the equation. The PS2 was a poor man's DVD player and that helped distract potential buyers away from the mediocre launch games. The PS2 made history by being the first successful game console to double as a video player, and that drew in the mainstream consumer. Piracy was not a problem for PS2 until the PS2 HDD was released. The Gamecube survived because piracy was not an issue and five years later the Gamecube was re-imagined as the Wii. Waggle took precedence over video playback.

4Runner
11-28-2013, 04:41 AM
If Sega included a DVD drive in the Dreamcast, Sega would still be in the console business today. Piracy would have never been in the equation. The PS2 was a poor man's DVD player and that helped distract potential buyers away from the mediocre launch games. The PS2 made history by being the first successful game console to double as a video player, and that drew in the mainstream consumer. Piracy was not a problem for PS2 until the PS2 HDD was released. The Gamecube survived because piracy was not an issue and five years later the Gamecube was re-imagined as the Wii. Waggle took precedence over video playback.

Pretty much what I tried to say, but explained better. Remember folks, we're not talking about the Dreamcast besting the PS2. I'm simply saying that if it had included DVD playback of some sort, it would've lasted and maybe had a successor named The Sega Inception? DVD was still a new thing back then and to have a console do something else other than play games was huge. Sony would've still been the one to beat, but I think the Dreamcast could've survived if Sega would've stepped it up in the support department. Sega in the mid to late 90's was like a old jock strap...good support for a while, but eventually it'll give way. They dropped their machines too quickly and never really fed them to the public like they did the Genesis. It's like they fired their whole marketing/advertising team after the Genesis.

bultje112
11-28-2013, 07:42 AM
Shenmue practically invented the fad of FMV style real time cutscenes as well. Honestly, a good number of Sega's offerings on the Dreamcast seemed like they would genuinely strike gold with the mainstreamers. The fact that games like Jet Set Radio and Shenmue did not sell in AAA numbers was one of the first things that tipped me off to the gruesome fact that mainstreamers worship brand first, and do_not like gameplay innovation.

shenmue is the 2nd best selling game of dreamcast of all time. shenmue 2 is most imported videogame in history. even chains like eb sold them in north america with a bootdisc. still the niche market back then has become more mainstream now. a game like heavy rain would've bombed 12 years ago for sure. but not today.

bultje112
11-28-2013, 07:44 AM
If Sega included a DVD drive in the Dreamcast, Sega would still be in the console business today. Piracy would have never been in the equation. The PS2 was a poor man's DVD player and that helped distract potential buyers away from the mediocre launch games. The PS2 made history by being the first successful game console to double as a video player, and that drew in the mainstream consumer. Piracy was not a problem for PS2 until the PS2 HDD was released. The Gamecube survived because piracy was not an issue and five years later the Gamecube was re-imagined as the Wii. Waggle took precedence over video playback.

if they included dvd dreamcast would've died harder than saturn. the system would've cost 500 or 600$ easily. no change in hell for them. only sony could get away with that

IrishNinja
11-28-2013, 07:44 AM
man stop oversimplifying & blaming piracy like that was what killed hardware sega, for real. it was a lot more than just that factor.

ima copy my post from GAF cause im drunk & emotional for the DC, which is also true when i'm sober.


http://i.imgur.com/n9OHigp.jpg

bought mine launch day, like any proper hardcore gamer alive at the time did. still the best launch lineup hands down.

the thing about the Dreamcast...so many people go on about the PS2 killed it, or more precisely sega's mistakes going up to it (ive read a great deal in recent times talking about the downward slope they saw after Kalinske left/subsequent lack of vision) but the real tragedy was that the DC era was classic arcade action Sega finally hitting all the right notes in a short time, and it still not being enough.

sixforutyfive has an excellent thread about here which im far too drunk to currently link but basically highlights why all of last years LTTP: JET GRIND RADIO SUCKED ROSE TINTED GLASSES LOLOL were garbage threads from a crowd largely catered to treat 6-8 hour single player games as disposable entertainment, rather than what was truly being offered that time: arcade gameplay perfection. what i mean to say is that the cheap quarter-munching aspects that never worked on consoles (and plagued 8/16 bit games infamously) was replaced with short games that were meant to be learned & mastered. the same crowd on here that cherishes the perfect balance of risk/reward the Souls games give have a tremendous amount of overlap with this design, philosophically: there's a ton to be found/explored in JSR but you have to be brave, and you have to both learn & deliver. it's incredibly satisfying but there's nothing for you if you aren't interested in trying; few people i know have even fully beaten the tutorial stage (myself included, to be honest) as a result.

when this was the default mode of play i totally get why many rejected it & instead celebrated say the 1st party offerings of the SNES era, but i personally will never understand this juxtaposition as i came from a time when both design philosophies were alive & growing and could be loved & explored for very different reasons. DC era may be a time capsule now - and to many going into the PS2, it was then as well, what with the ongoing decline of US arcades - but for core fighting fans, SHMUPs (these are great people), wacky japanese fans who would talk to Seaman on a mic, rhythm fans, and those who grew up on Suzuki simulations & cherished his magnum opus Shenmue (seeing its pacing problems as bold choices) it was an incredible time, and gone all too fast. in less than 2 years, and with little help beyond a handful of 3rd parties (Namco & others early on, Capcom perhaps the largest) you had one of the most memorable libraries built, and while many linger on the sad notion of what might've been, what we actually got was some absolute gems, some i'm still happily discovering to this day.

+ plus side

built-in modem! Sega net let me see the weather tomorrow in Shenmue (and 100 man fight leaderboards), DLC for Samba de Amigo, and join clans in Phantasy Star Online
an OS by MS that was somehow unobtrusive
nearly everything about it - even the tamagochi-like VMU's! - felt like it was from the future, and its influence was clearly felt
an incredible amount of high quality titles at a good price (mostly still cheap to this day!) despite its short life, with an amazing amount of variety for its cyle to boot
no other system was gonna give me a keyboard for Typing of the Dead, let's be honest
though technically showing up late for the 32-bit era (or more precisely, early for the next) it's that period of early 3D that ages well for me due to generous AA in some titles, especially over VGA
easy bootlegging may've done some share of damage but its homebrew scene grew & now is much easier/cheaper to revisit than the poor Saturn fares


- minuses

the world was very clearly not ready to go online for years yet, sadly. XBL would be built on the bones of sega.net
the single biggest hindrance for some titles is the lack of 2nd analog/camera control
even though Sega embodied the bold cutting edge shit that much of GAF celebrates in stuff like the Vita they couldn't have a DVD player in there in '99 to help make it more future-proof, and honestly stuff like the 32x chased off so much of the base they built in the Genesis era that not nearly enough people came back around for this masterpiece (though i would very much like to remind younger gaffers i do not judge you or bust your chops for this, but rather encourage revisiting these gems where you can!)
while i adore the controllers, the core being at the bottom is kinda clumsy, and sadly the arcade sticks aren't cheap as a result (Saturn sticks can be found for less than $20, i was lucky to find an official DC one for $50 recently!)


RIP to possibly my favorite system of all time. there is quite literally a sega/DC sized whole in the scene for me to this very day, and Dr. Sparkle & its disparagers can help themselves to my ass; if you were around for that era and still bash it, you either didn't really give its library a chance or your tastes aren't worth addressing, these are facts.

bultje112
11-28-2013, 07:57 AM
piracy was a horrible factor, starting september 2000 software sales dropped completely(is posted here many times already) because they hacked the dreamcast system and literally over night the piracy scene became bigger than psx.

BoostedGR33K
11-28-2013, 08:01 AM
My 1st experience on the dreamcast was Phantasy Star Online. Just blew my frakkin mind wide open. I didnt have the money back then for a Dreamcast when they first came out, but I figured "Well lets face it guys - Sega is gonna be making consoles the rest of our lives. I'll wait till their next big thing to come out in a couple years and that'll make all the dreamcast stuff cheaper right?" Ugh..... Im just happy I now own one and give it plenty of love and affection... heh

IrishNinja
11-28-2013, 08:11 AM
piracy was a horrible factor, starting september 2000 software sales dropped completely(is posted here many times already) because they hacked the dreamcast system and literally over night the piracy scene became bigger than psx.

i'm not at all denying it was a factor m'man; i recall going to a comic shop in early 2000, buying my books and being offered a new game burned (with case) for another tenner...shit was crazy then. what i'm saying is, other systems have suffered about as much & stayed afloat; the DC categorically died because of past debt sega built/momentum it lost due to PS2 etc etc. i tend to think over-focusing on any one factor - lack of DVD, PS2 bullshit hype, piracy, Moore etc etc - is oversimplifying is all. I very much subscribe to the Genesis Knight school of thought: Sega's collective actions, especially post Kalinske (arguably during though) created a scenario where the DC simply couldn't thrive, even with arcade decline. there was so much more going on that just the burning though.

bultje112
11-28-2013, 08:12 AM
other systems didn't suffer nearly as much. ps2 only got piracy in when it had a huge install base, same with psx. not with dreamcast. in fact when they hacked dreancast hardware sales actually went up and software sales went down and not just a little.

IrishNinja
11-28-2013, 08:17 AM
anecdotal, but i saw exactly what you're referencing. still, are you prepared to say that when Moore - after the biggest weekend of hardware sales post launch, as i recall - closed their doors, he did so as a result of piracy over any other factor? again i'm not arguing it wasn't one; i'm simply saying i think that variable is overrated. i may present cherish the homebrew scene/etc but the WW install base was the problem, not those burning games.

Yharnamresident
11-28-2013, 09:07 AM
I think we all agree the Dreamcast controller is far from perfect.

-The VMU is a gimmick, get rid of it and make the controller slimmer.

-Once again, they created another controller that doesn't have enough god damn buttons. The SNES has more buttons than it.

-The dpad is just some Nintendo knock-off, why they abandoned their previous flawless dpads? who knows.

-This console sure won't be a personal favourite for FPS shooters, as you only got 1 analog stick.

Bottino
11-28-2013, 12:54 PM
-The VMU is a gimmick, get rid of it and make the controller slimmer.


No.One of the coolest features of the DC is the VMU and how it integrates to several games.



-Once again, they created another controller that doesn't have enough god damn buttons. The SNES has more buttons than it.

Perhaps.But the triggers are excelent, especially for racing games, and the analog stick is very good too.


-The dpad is just some Nintendo knock-off, why they abandoned their previous flawless dpads? who knows.

Still, it's miles better than the abismal Playstation d-pad and i don't see anyone complaining about it.


-This console sure won't be a personal favourite for FPS shooters, as you only got 1 analog stick.

I never had any problems playing Quake III or Unreal with the standart controller.Also, there were a mouse and keyboard avaliable for the DC.

The DC controller was perfect? No. But it's not a piece of junk either.

Also, to say that piracy was a major factor in the Dreamcast's demise is to embrace a fallacy that piracy somehow is the no.1 enemy of the industry.

rsa501
11-28-2013, 02:13 PM
The Dreamcast still holds up today. My favorite version of Soul Calibur and so much more. It's hard to believe how cheap you can pick up a system for these days.

Yharnamresident
11-28-2013, 02:13 PM
I think it should've been:

Take the Saturn 3D controller, add another analog stick, some cool venting, and voila.

tz101
11-28-2013, 08:55 PM
If Sega included a DVD drive in the Dreamcast, Sega would still be in the console business today.

Nintendo didn't and still is. I simply don't buy that argument.

DarkDragon
11-28-2013, 09:03 PM
Just like FF VII was the reason I got a PSOne, Marvel vs Capcom 2 was the reason why I got a DC. All their other fighters as well.

Yharnamresident
11-28-2013, 09:14 PM
Nintendo didn't and still is. I simply don't buy that argument.

And Nintendo took a massive beating because of that. The Gamecube only sold 22 million.

See during the Dreamcast days, Sega needed every cent of profit they could get.

During the Gamecube days, the Gamecube was having the same shit sales as the Dreamcast, but Nintendo didn't care because the GBA was still raking in money for them.

Yharnamresident
11-29-2013, 02:00 PM
I'm done complaining about the controller.

Ever wanted to play Crash Bandicoot on the Dreamcast? take a look:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBpjIfpM2MM

midnightrider
11-29-2013, 02:13 PM
Alright, who didn't watch Metal Jesus today? :p

Yharnamresident
11-29-2013, 02:19 PM
Metal Jesus is part of a healthy breakfast!

retrospiel
11-29-2013, 02:34 PM
Nintendo didn't and still is. I simply don't buy that argument.

Well, it was Peter 'Xbox' Moore who thought Sega would be better off doing games for Microsoft:


http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132517/the_rise_and_fall_of_the_dreamcast.php?page=7

Moore's Manifesto of the Future

In September 2000, well before the year's biggest sales months had taken place, Peter Moore and Charles Bellfield wrote a report called the "Manifesto of the Future," which they presented to all of Sega of Japanese executives and the studio heads in Japan, including creative heavyweights such as Yu Suzuki (AM2), Yuji Naka (Sonic Team), Rikiya Nakagawa (AM1/Wow Entertainment) and Toshihiro Nagoshi (AM4/Ausement Vision) among others.

"As you can imagine, what was happening was that we were very close to the business," said Moore. "The writing ultimately was on the wall regarding the challenges to sustain the hardware business in the face of the financial difficulties Sega had at the time and the impending launch of the PS2. So we went over there as responsible business people should do and presented what was going on in North America."

"I remember it like it was yesterday," said Bellfield. "We presented a strategy in September 2000 that said we were not viable as a hardware player in the States beyond Christmas 2000 and that we needed to get out of the hardware business. That meeting was the first time Japan had ever heard that we could not be successful against the power of Microsoft, who had not yet announced their intention to come into the space, but we knew they were."

"They were hearing from the one region, the US, that had been successful with the Dreamcast launch, that the future of the Dreamcast was not going to be rosy. North America was the one lifeline that they had left -- that maybe success in the US would allow them to bridge doing another hardware platform, or to extend the life of this platform, or allow it to be reinvented in Japan and Europe."

"When we told them that staying in the hardware business was not our advice, the next thing that happened was all of the heads of all the studios got up and walked out without saying a word. That, in the Japanese culture, is pretty rude. But they were shocked."

sheath
11-29-2013, 02:36 PM
Alright, who didn't watch Metal Jesus today? :p

Who? Oh that guy. Okay I'll watch it.

-edit-

They say "RPG game" and the long haired guy with the gizzard had not played Sword of the Berserk. That is just silly, but I am glad these youtubers are reviewing the Dreamcast without repeating some poorly researched story of how Sega failed.

Half Life's Gold beta wasn't optimized and loads in all the exact same places as the PC version does from the hard drive. The Dreamcast's GD-ROM was more than fast enough to stream those tiny level segments, just look at Soul Reaver which is a little bit more optimized.

Bottino
11-29-2013, 03:05 PM
"When we told them that staying in the hardware business was not our advice, the next thing that happened was all of the heads of all the studios got up and walked out without saying a word. That, in the Japanese culture, is pretty rude. But they were shocked." [/i]

They probably knew what was behind that "advice". And now, with the exception of Toshihiro Nagoshi, all of those guys left Sega.

spiffyone
11-29-2013, 04:33 PM
Dreamcast didn't fail Sega; Sega failed Dreamcast.

It's really as simple as that. The company was in a massive financial hole before Dreamcast was even on the drawing board, and those loses increased as the Saturn weighed down on them, and their investments in other markets didn't pay off. Dreamcast was born and put out to the world by a company that simply didn't have the financial strength to keep it afloat.

The system sold "well enough". The JP launch was a disaster for many reasons, but Bernie and his team (despite what some may state, Bernie wasn't "the bad guy") made the US/NA launch a huge success; DC's sales EU was less successful, but not too bad. Of course, the launch "glow" wore off, as it often does with consoles. Hard times were ahead. But whereas Microsoft and Nintendo could weather those storms, those downturns in sales, Sega simply could not. They hadn't the money to do so, and nowhere near the money of M$ and Nintendo with their warchest of GBAssets and Pokemoney. End result? Sega called it quits, DC was discontinued, whereas the other two, which DC was likely projected to sell as wel as, stayed on market.

Ah well.

In the short time DC was officially supported, goodness did it get a ton of damned good to great games. Jet Grind Radio, Crazy Taxi, Sega Marine Fishing (how did Sega make a fishing video game so fun? Genius!), Skies of Arcadia, Mars Matrix, Zero Gunner 2, Project Justice, Toy Commander, Power Stone 2, Record of the Lodoss War, Le Mans, SoulCalibur, Illbleed, etc., etc., etc. Best versions (at the time) of Rayman 2, Shadow Man, Soul Reaver, MDK2, etc., etc., etc.

It's the system that got me back into gaming in a big way, honestly.

I still have mine hooked up to my TV. Hell, I'm looking right at it. Or, rather, it's looking right at me.

It's thinking.

spiffyone
11-29-2013, 04:48 PM
Oh, and as for what DC "should've had":

IMO, a controller more based off the Saturn controller. Not the Nights stick so much as taking the Saturn JP pad (best traditional controller ever, IMO) and adding two analog sticks ala the "islands" used by Sony on their Dual Shock pad.

VMU? No window needed for that, IMO. Just have a connection for it between the two analog "islands".

The VMU itself shouldn't have been the stock memory unit either, if Sega couldn't get the costs down enough to put in a rechargeable battery and backlight. Having that little clock battery made for a very short battery life, which defeated the purpose of using it as a little portable game system; not having a backlight defeated the purpose of using it during gameplay for things like selecting plays, checking vital stats, etc.

Oh, and on a semi-tech related note: would've been nice if the CPU were a bit higher clocked, the RAM was increased a bit, and a second SH4 were used in place of the ARM CPU as the sound controller/DSP and connected to the main bus via a 32-bit bus (the sound chip was connected via 16-bit bus). That way the second SH4 could've been used as a second CPU should devs have wanted to use it, especially if and when Sega allowed for more "to the metal" programming (I could see the Sega dev teams making use of it due to their familiarity with such programming from Saturn). It wouldn't be used by most devs, of course, but that wouldn't have mattered because the stock DC with single SH4 CPU was put to good use, and in this hypothetical they'd have a higher clocked CPU and a bit more RAM to play with.

Of course, this would necessitate cost cutting elsewhere. IMO, the bundled modem should've been a separately sold peripheral. That was Bernie's blunder with DC. He insisted on the modem being in there, but Sega took over a year (two years from the JP date) to really have the online stuff set up. And it was among the costlier components in Dreamcast. His insistence on launching at $199 instead of $249 as Sega of Japan wanted was another possible blunder, but arguably a good move to make as Sega really needed to have a good launch.

retrospiel
11-29-2013, 05:16 PM
The modem was Sega of Japan's idea. Initially Dreamcast wasn't meant to have any physical media at all, according to Stolar.

Yharnamresident
11-29-2013, 05:21 PM
But didn't the Super-H 4s come stock in 166 MHz and 200 MHz models?

After storage space, I think main RAM was the Dreamcast's second biggest weakness.

16 MBs would have looked pretty weak once the GameCube and Xbox came out, harder to do muilti-plats. 24 MBs of RAM would have helped it during the GTA III/Vice City days.

spiffyone
11-29-2013, 05:53 PM
The modem was Sega of Japan's idea. Initially Dreamcast wasn't meant to have any physical media at all, according to Stolar.

That's complete madness if true. For the time, at least. Nowadays I can see a DD only video game console, but not back then.

Could've sworn Bernie stated the modem was his idea, and that it was "absolutely vital" or something along those lines.


But didn't the Super-H 4s come stock in 166 MHz and 200 MHz models?

After storage space, I think main RAM was the Dreamcast's second biggest weakness.

16 MBs would have looked pretty weak once the GameCube and Xbox came out, harder to do muilti-plats. 24 MBs of RAM would have helped it during the GTA III/Vice City days.

You might be right about the SH4 clock speed. I'm just remembering modders overclocking it, but that wouldn't have been good for a mass produced consumer product.

DVD would've killed them in the early going. That drive was among the more costlier components in PS2. Sega didn't have the money to stomach those sorts of loses per unit. RAM, however, fluctuates in price and decreases more rapidly, so even just increasing the system RAM to 24 MB would've been nice for devs (more RAM is always a good thing).

I don't know what the cost difference was between the SH4 and the ARM7 they used for the sound chip, but what with the increased manufacturing of that part, and the removal of the modem as a pack in part, they could've shouldered the increase in cost from having another SH4 as the sound chip/secondary CPU tied to a 32-bit bus. Maybe. Someone with more knowledge than I in such matters would have an answer as to whether it would've been feasible.

retrospiel
11-29-2013, 06:04 PM
That's complete madness if true. For the time, at least. Nowadays I can see a DD only video game console, but not back then.

Could've sworn Bernie stated the modem was his idea, and that it was "absolutely vital" or something along those lines.

The interview I was thinking of: http://venturebeat.com/2009/09/11/qaa-former-sega-president-on-dreamcasts-failure-pranks-against-sony-his-ouster/

Seems the modem was Stolar's idea like you said, but: Mr. Okawa wanted to release this strictly on the Internet and I refused! He and I just went through major differences.

Yharnamresident
11-29-2013, 07:25 PM
That's complete madness if true. For the time, at least. Nowadays I can see a DD only video game console, but not back then.

Could've sworn Bernie stated the modem was his idea, and that it was "absolutely vital" or something along those lines.



You might be right about the SH4 clock speed. I'm just remembering modders overclocking it, but that wouldn't have been good for a mass produced consumer product.

DVD would've killed them in the early going. That drive was among the more costlier components in PS2. Sega didn't have the money to stomach those sorts of loses per unit. RAM, however, fluctuates in price and decreases more rapidly, so even just increasing the system RAM to 24 MB would've been nice for devs (more RAM is always a good thing).

I don't know what the cost difference was between the SH4 and the ARM7 they used for the sound chip, but what with the increased manufacturing of that part, and the removal of the modem as a pack in part, they could've shouldered the increase in cost from having another SH4 as the sound chip/secondary CPU tied to a 32-bit bus. Maybe. Someone with more knowledge than I in such matters would have an answer as to whether it would've been feasible.

Well nonetheless I agree it could've had a higher custom clock speed. Maybe 256 MHz, because 256 is a lucky number.

EclecticGroove
11-30-2013, 02:32 AM
To get this back on track... I remember avidly watching the Dreamcast news when it was being leaked out. I LOVED the Saturn, and it was my most played console long after it "died", it took years before the PSX would finally unseat the system's throne as king of my video game playtime.

So when the DC was set to release, I was excited for sure... and seeing some of the screenshots for games? Awe man, those looked AWESOME! When that date came around... 9/9/99 I was all set to go, play it, and make my choice on if to pick it up or not. I went and played the SA demo in a Toys R us, I saw the Soul Calibur demo on another system, and a few of the others as well.

Needless to say... I picked the system up right there with a few games, and eyed several others to pick up later. Never regretted that. From launch till loooooong after it was put out to pasture I enjoyed some of the best gaming on any console ever.
I still have that console I bought on launch, and I'll never sell it unless it's a serious need.

I'll always have fond memories of the console and its games, just like with the Saturn, Sega CD, and Genesis before it. From the first wows of SA, to the lonnnng nights playing PSO and just loving the look, feel, and sound of the game (even if I want another traditional PS RPG damn it). It was a console that hit a hell of a lot of high notes in so many genres.