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negative chill
11-05-2014, 02:12 PM
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?54194-Sonic-X-treme-Point-of-View-Info-help-required&

So some guy over at Assembler Games has come into possession of the Point Of View Studios build of Sonic X-Treme along with a proto Saturn PC Emulator that was supposed to go hand in hand with the Sega Diamond Edge graphics card (?). Andrew 75 (of Project AXSX, the fan remake of Sonic X-Treme) is currently helping him work on it so that it can be ready for a possible free public release

xelement5x
11-06-2014, 11:48 AM
Pretty cool stuff there.

Moirai
11-06-2014, 01:14 PM
My prediction is that it'll get hyped up a ton, then stashed away by some greedy fuck never to be released.

RPGbandit
11-06-2014, 02:56 PM
A GOOD Saturn emulator?? Surely you jest!

I would definitely like to mess around with that

Guntz
11-06-2014, 03:07 PM
It probably relies on the NV1 graphics card mentioned in that thread.

TheSonicRetard
11-06-2014, 03:11 PM
My prediction is that it'll get hyped up a ton, then stashed away by some greedy fuck never to be released.

No, im definitely releasing this.

TheSonicRetard
11-06-2014, 03:12 PM
It probably relies on the NV1 graphics card mentioned in that thread.

So to quote JR on the similarities between the actual saturn and the nv1 card: "they use electricity. Thats about it."

Guntz
11-06-2014, 03:22 PM
Then how come people keep going on about the Saturn controller board for the NV1?

TheSonicRetard
11-06-2014, 03:32 PM
The game is coded to use that board, it doesnt recognize a normal pc gameport and there dont appear to be any keyboard controls.

negative chill
11-06-2014, 03:41 PM
My prediction is that it'll get hyped up a ton, then stashed away by some greedy fuck never to be released.

If that occurs, I sincerely hope he/she gets it stolen out from under them only to have it dumped on the internet

We've already lost the 12 Tales of Conker and Dinosaur Planet builds to these types of people, and I'll be damned if I'm going to happen again to something as infamous as Sonic X-Treme

TheSonicRetard
11-06-2014, 03:46 PM
Again, nobody has to worry about that, I fully intend to release this stuff and we have backups and everything. The chances of this proto going missing again is nill.

In fact we're prepping a small release for very soon. Not the engine build but some new assets.

Keep in mind we're not holding out on this stuff, we're super hyped to distribute it. Is just that we don't have anything ready to release yet.

Guntz
11-06-2014, 03:48 PM
Ah, well I guess that makes sense then as the game was in the middle of development.

Good luck with the release of the prototype.

TheSonicRetard
11-06-2014, 03:59 PM
Thanks! We're super excited to get this into people's hands. Just getting this stuff isn't the goal for us, we want to be the ones who go down as the people who released sonic xtreme.

Guntz
11-06-2014, 04:59 PM
Will this help to determine how far along Sonic X-Treme really was before it was canned? Most information thus far hasn't been all that specific.

TheSonicRetard
11-06-2014, 07:24 PM
We have everything of sonic xtreme that ever existed.

TrekkiesUnite118
11-06-2014, 07:29 PM
I saw on your NeoGAF post you mentioned stubs for Saturn compiling. Is there anything actually there to compile the Saturn version or even partial Saturn code? Or is it just notes with nothing actually there?

retrospiel
11-06-2014, 07:49 PM
From what I remember the PC and Saturn version were very different projects handled by different teams working independently from each other (for whatever reason). The PC version was far more advanced than the Saturn version when they stopped working on it.

I think the Saturn version(s) are already available for a couple of years if I'm not mistaken.

TheSonicRetard
11-06-2014, 07:54 PM
From what I remember the PC and Saturn version were very different projects handled by different teams working independently from each other (for whatever reason). The PC version was far more advanced than the Saturn version when they stopped working on it.

I think the Saturn version(s) are already available for a couple of years if I'm not mistaken.

No, they build from the same source.

retrospiel
11-06-2014, 07:55 PM
Are you sure? I remember Chris Senn talking about how the PC version was far ahead of the Saturn port.

TheSonicRetard
11-06-2014, 07:58 PM
I saw on your NeoGAF post you mentioned stubs for Saturn compiling. Is there anything actually there to compile the Saturn version or even partial Saturn code? Or is it just notes with nothing actually there?

You can build the project for either saturn or pc. Its the same project.

TrekkiesUnite118
11-06-2014, 08:16 PM
You can build the project for either saturn or pc. Its the same project.

Do you guys have the libraries to do that? While the PC version will be more accessible to most people, it would still be interesting to see how it ran on the Saturn.

Blades
11-06-2014, 08:44 PM
Holy damn. Awesome.

Are you guys collecting donations?

retrospiel
11-06-2014, 09:04 PM
Well, I'd certainly be interested in seeing it running on a real Saturn.

TheSonicRetard
11-07-2014, 10:12 AM
We've got it built for the saturn. It'll run under an emulator but crashes on a real saturn. We're going to use a cartdev to step through the execution to see where it crashes on real hardware.

TrekkiesUnite118
11-07-2014, 10:41 AM
We've got it built for the saturn. It'll run under an emulator but crashes on a real saturn. We're going to use a cartdev to step through the execution to see where it crashes on real hardware.

That's awesome! I can't wait to see how it stacks up compared to the videos and promo stuff that was released years ago.

TmEE
11-07-2014, 10:45 AM
Whoa !
This is awesome !

TheSonicRetard
11-07-2014, 11:12 AM
That's awesome! I can't wait to see how it stacks up compared to the videos and promo stuff that was released years ago.

Currently its just 1 build of many and it just flies through the level, no controller input. I asked JR tp weigh in a bit more on why its not polling thr controller on the saturn. The nv1 build creates an object that represents the nv1 hardware, and that object is what polls the controller on the pc version. So it might be a case of the saturn version flat out not having any code to poll the controllers. But, given the abstraction layer the source code operates under, it might be possible to get controller polling going on the saturn.

Barw minimum, though, is that everyone will get to run this on their pc without an nv1 using an emulator :)

TheSonicRetard
11-07-2014, 11:24 AM
Holy damn. Awesome.

Are you guys collecting donations?

Nope, no donations :)

TrekkiesUnite118
11-07-2014, 11:34 AM
While I know SSF isn't a 1:1 match of the Saturn for performance, how did the game appear to run? I'd imagine the target Framerate was 30fps, does it seem to hit that?

TheSonicRetard
11-07-2014, 11:46 AM
It flies by, it might be running at an impossible speed.

Jeckidy
11-07-2014, 08:26 PM
When you guys said you had "everything that ever existed", does this mean you have the NiGHTs demo and Boss builds as well?

miru
11-08-2014, 12:49 AM
I wonder if you can find Sister Sonic and Sonic Jr as well, hopefully.

Sega Uranus
11-08-2014, 01:45 AM
Love the work you guys have been doing. It seems unreal how long this has all taken.


I wonder if you can find Sister Sonic and Sonic Jr as well, hopefully.

I would be especially interested in seeing Sister Sonic, but I doubt any significant work of that game was saved. I imagine the fandom would have shifted a lot early on if that game was released.

EclecticGroove
11-08-2014, 03:03 AM
[QUOTE=miru;691878]I wonder if you can find Sister Sonic /QUOTE]

From a gameplay standpoint I can't see how that would be too problematic (assuming you could insert new sprites into popful mail). So long as at least some concept art was around for the characters it would be pretty trivial for a good sprite artist to make a 1:1 replacement for the characters. Story wise of course it would be a total wash unless more information was floating around about that.

Blades
11-08-2014, 10:37 PM
It seems unreal how long this has all taken.

I remember when these videos first surfaced.

wzvS_beXtXk

aZb7LE6G5Gg

I thought I'd never live to see the day. We shall see if I do. Perhaps this will all culminate with an iOS/PSN release? Holy god I don't want to dream.

TheSonicRetard
11-09-2014, 10:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNCeVNOhdIM

Blades
11-09-2014, 10:19 PM
Oh my god it's happening.

Barone
11-11-2014, 09:40 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNCeVNOhdIM
Well, I think every Sega fan is thankful for what you and your friends are doing, TheSonicRetard. It's awesome to see it running after so much speculation and this looooooooooooong wait.

But I also would like to ask you to keep partaking the discussions here (not only about the Sonic X-Treme release). I know that you're very busy lately, but your input in this forum has been awesome in the past and I'd like to see you posting more often if possible.

Thanks a lot!

TheSonicRetard
11-13-2014, 12:43 AM
Well, I think every Sega fan is thankful for what you and your friends are doing, TheSonicRetard. It's awesome to see it running after so much speculation and this looooooooooooong wait.

But I also would like to ask you to keep partaking the discussions here (not only about the Sonic X-Treme release). I know that you're very busy lately, but your input in this forum has been awesome in the past and I'd like to see you posting more often if possible.

Thanks a lot!

Thanks man, means a whole bunch. I'm spread really thin lately, unfortunately. I need to put in some more time over here...

in the mean time, have a brand new screenshot :P

http://i.imgur.com/k7HKF0y.png

Jeckidy
11-13-2014, 02:37 AM
I'm excited about this but I'm hoping for a PC release more than a Saturn release. My Saturn would have to be modded, and my PC doesn't like SSF.

Guntz
11-13-2014, 03:27 AM
My Saturn is already modchipped. :)

Moirai
11-13-2014, 12:39 PM
Maybe some hackers and programmers can finish Sonic Xtreme for the saturn.. Maybe even get it endorsed by sega just like the widescreen HD versions of sonic CD

TheSonicRetard
11-13-2014, 03:00 PM
So just some things I've noticed from these builds and looking at old xtreme footage:

some of the most grainy footage might have been from POV's saturn port all along. There are number of videos that are extremely poor quality, like they were recorded off screen, than exhibits the behavior from the saturn build, namely the way the Sonic Sprite is pasted over objects in front of him, where, in the PC version, those objects merely become transparent.

Ofer's engine would automatically make obfuscating pieces of geometry transparent if they got in between sonic and the camera, see here:

http://I.imgur.com/67V5eMv.png

the saturn build we have exhibits different behavior:

http://I.imgur.com/wx9JAoC.png

We see that same behavior in some of the stranger footage for Xtreme, example:

http://I.imgur.com/o9KVmhq.png

In footage from this area, we also see Sonic jump repeatedly, multiple times in the air (as in, more than twice). Also, in this footage, when sonic jumps, he becomes a blue sphere, where in the PC footage, when he jumps, he displays individual frames of jumping animation. I'm not sure if this is just a case of frames being missed in the video capture or not, however. Also, in the above footage, Sonic can't collect rings, just like the Saturn build, but unlike the PC build.

Obviously any actual art or test levels they got would have been created by STI. I'm merely talking about footage of the saturn engine... potentially. I think the above that I pointed out is from POV.

Of course, it could also just as easily be from an earlier version of Ofer's engine and the quirks I'm pointing out in the saturn build were lifted directly from Ofer's work...

we won't know till later, I guess. Just interesting to go back and watch the old footage.

TrekkiesUnite118
11-13-2014, 03:31 PM
That issue might also be a result of the Saturn's known transparency issues.

Barone
11-13-2014, 03:42 PM
The POV concept was cursed since the very beginning IMO, given that 3D transparencies would be required if you wanted to go beyond Bug!-like maps. I mean, you're always in a point of view where you need transparencies a lot in order to be able to see your character if he goes away/inside rooms, etc.

TheSonicRetard
11-13-2014, 03:54 PM
That issue might also be a result of the Saturn's known transparency issues.

Probably, although the saturn has a hardware call to render a polygon usong dithering to fake transparency.

The point I was making, however, is that we always assumed we had never seen this engine running on the saturn until last week. That *might* not be true, we might have seen glimpses of it for years and never realized. But thats just some speculation right now until we do more work.

SperglordLava
11-15-2014, 11:05 PM
Sonic X-Treme probably would have had a better chance if Yuji Naka wasn't such a crybaby because they used his engine. Seriously, they should have just let him quit. He was basically acting like a child. "That's MY toy!"

Guntz
11-15-2014, 11:25 PM
The stupidity of Sega Enterprises is most evident with Sonic X-Treme. Clearly Sega deserved to fail considering how well they capitalized on their best known character when they needed him the most.

also, kinda odd to think that even though whats-her-name from Sonic the Movie has long since died with the pre-Adventure era assortment of characters, she still lives on with the necromancy-like fanbase.

SperglordLava
11-16-2014, 12:18 AM
The stupidity of Sega Enterprises is most evident with Sonic X-Treme. Clearly Sega deserved to fail considering how well they capitalized on their best known character when they needed him the most.

also, kinda odd to think that even though whats-her-name from Sonic the Movie has long since died with the pre-Adventure era assortment of characters, she still lives on with the necromancy-like fanbase.
Sonic X-Treme not being released basically killed the Sonic franchise from that point forward; mediocre release after mediocre release. Modern Sonic killed Sonic, and now what, we have this Sonic Boom bullshit? By the way, the Presidents daughter from Sonic OVA is named Sara.

Kogen
11-16-2014, 12:45 AM
The stupidity of Sega Enterprises is most evident with Sonic X-Treme. Clearly Sega deserved to fail considering how well they capitalized on their best known character when they needed him the most.

also, kinda odd to think that even though whats-her-name from Sonic the Movie has long since died with the pre-Adventure era assortment of characters, she still lives on with the necromancy-like fanbase.

Still not worth dragging everyone else down with Sonic. Saturn did quite well in Japan.

A Black Falcon
11-16-2014, 01:17 AM
Still not worth dragging everyone else down with Sonic. Saturn did quite well in Japan.
No, it didn't. The Saturn did well in Japan in 1995-1996, but it started fading in 1997 after FFVII released on PS1 and DQVII was announced as a PS1 exclusive, and Sega stopped supporting the platform there only four years after release, at the end of '98. The Saturn sold 5-7 million systems in Japan, versus 21.6 million Playstations there. Sure, the Saturn probably edged out the N64 in Japan, since the N64 sold only 5.54 million systems there, but not by too much, and with how disastrous N64 sales were in Japan compared to the SNES, that's saying something. (Of course, the Genesis to Saturn transition in the US was even worse than that -- ~20 million to 1.5-2 million!)

Anyway, 5 to 7 million systems sold isn't awful, but I don't think it's "quite well", either. If 5.5 million N64s sold in Japan is considered somewhat bad, a Saturn which sold slightly better than that has to also be considered a disappointment. Sega started off great in Japan, and won 1995-1996 I'm pretty sure, but couldn't keep that momentum up and collapsed in '97-'99.


The stupidity of Sega Enterprises is most evident with Sonic X-Treme. Clearly Sega deserved to fail considering how well they capitalized on their best known character when they needed him the most.

also, kinda odd to think that even though whats-her-name from Sonic the Movie has long since died with the pre-Adventure era assortment of characters, she still lives on with the necromancy-like fanbase.
What Sega really needed to do was force Sonic Team to make a Sonic game as their first Saturn game. Period. X-Treme could have been nice too, but it wasn't going to be ready until later; even in ideal conditions (no idiotic corporate meddling ruining the game, etc.) actually finishing that game for a 1996 release would have been very difficult -- and that's still months after NiGHTS's release in mid '96, when Sonic Team hopefully could also have finished some Sonic game. Sega absolutely needed Sonic to have any chance in the West.

TrekkiesUnite118
11-16-2014, 01:48 AM
What Sega really needed to do was force Sonic Team to make a Sonic game as their first Saturn game. Period. X-Treme could have been nice too, but it wasn't going to be ready until later; even in ideal conditions (no idiotic corporate meddling ruining the game, etc.) actually finishing that game for a 1996 release would have been very difficult -- and that's still months after NiGHTS's release in mid '96, when Sonic Team hopefully could also have finished some Sonic game. Sega absolutely needed Sonic to have any chance in the West.

I think if they had done that they may have lost Sonic Team. Sonic Team developers have been very clear in interviews about NiGHTS and Burning Rangers that by the time they were done with Sonic and Knuckles they were sick of making Sonic games and wanted to try other things. Forcing developers to make something they're sick of making isn't really a good idea when they've been making that for the past 5+ years. NiGHTS and Burning Rangers allowed them to explore new ideas and recharge their batteries so by the time they were ready to make Sonic games again they made solid titles like Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2.

Honestly I think if Sega had not botched the Saturn's launch so badly they could have had a better foundation to stand on that not having a new Sonic title until about late 1997/1998 wouldn't have been as devastating. I still say delaying the US launch until September 1995 as originally planned with better polished releases would have made a pretty big difference. Instead of comparing a buggy port of Virtua Fighter to Toshinden or Tekken gamers and magazines would be comparing Virtua Fighter Remix to those titles. Instead of a choppy port of Daytona they could have possibly had a more polished port of Daytona. Team Andromeda could have had the time they needed to get Panzer Dragoon not only running at 30fps but have the music properly synced. More third party releases would have been ready for launch making the library more appealing.

Throw in that Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, and Virtua Fighter 2 would be ready by the holidays and you'd have a good launch with a promising holiday season coming up. And that could have gotten more developers on board in spite of the crazy architecture.

miru
11-16-2014, 02:20 AM
Sonic X-Treme not being released basically killed the Sonic franchise from that point forward; mediocre release after mediocre release. Modern Sonic killed Sonic, and now what, we have this Sonic Boom bullshit? By the way, the Presidents daughter from Sonic OVA is named Sara.

And then the games went from mediocre to shit in 2010...

TrekkiesUnite118
11-16-2014, 02:26 AM
And then the games went from mediocre to shit in 2010...

If you're referring to Sonic Colors I'd like to know how that was shit. That was one of the best Sonic games to come out in a while.

Kogen
11-16-2014, 02:33 AM
No, it didn't. The Saturn did well in Japan in 1995-1996, but it started fading in 1997 after FFVII released on PS1 and DQVII was announced as a PS1 exclusive, and Sega stopped supporting the platform there only four years after release, at the end of '98. The Saturn sold 5-7 million systems in Japan, versus 21.6 million Playstations there. Sure, the Saturn probably edged out the N64 in Japan, since the N64 sold only 5.54 million systems there, but not by too much, and with how disastrous N64 sales were in Japan compared to the SNES, that's saying something. (Of course, the Genesis to Saturn transition in the US was even worse than that -- ~20 million to 1.5-2 million!)

Anyway, 5 to 7 million systems sold isn't awful, but I don't think it's "quite well", either. If 5.5 million N64s sold in Japan is considered somewhat bad, a Saturn which sold slightly better than that has to also be considered a disappointment. Sega started off great in Japan, and won 1995-1996 I'm pretty sure, but couldn't keep that momentum up and collapsed in '97-'99.


What Sega really needed to do was force Sonic Team to make a Sonic game as their first Saturn game. Period. X-Treme could have been nice too, but it wasn't going to be ready until later; even in ideal conditions (no idiotic corporate meddling ruining the game, etc.) actually finishing that game for a 1996 release would have been very difficult -- and that's still months after NiGHTS's release in mid '96, when Sonic Team hopefully could also have finished some Sonic game. Sega absolutely needed Sonic to have any chance in the West.

Blah blah blah. The console sold decently, had plenty of games, and had million sellers (such as Virtua Fighter 2). It did just as good if not better than N64. Failed consoles do not have this thing called 'success'.


If you're referring to Sonic Colors I'd like to know how that was shit. That was one of the best Sonic games to come out in a while.

It is pretty stinky, honestly. Not 'fall through the floor' bad, but mind-numbingly boring.

Benjamin
11-16-2014, 02:44 AM
I still say delaying the US launch until September 1995 as originally planned with better polished releases would have made a pretty big difference.

I agree that definitely would have helped -- the Saturn never really recovered from its "bad at 3-D" image those early titles left behind -- but the PlayStation would still be the odds-on consumer favorite by virtue of being $100 less than the competition. If we could go back in time and get Sega to launch at $299 on top of delaying the launch, then we could talk, but then we'd also be urging the company to scrap its other 32-bit system, too...

Kogen
11-16-2014, 02:49 AM
I agree that definitely would have helped -- the Saturn never really recovered from its "bad at 3-D" image those early titles left behind -- but the PlayStation would still be the odds-on consumer favorite by virtue of being $100 less than the competition. If we could go back in time and get Sega to launch at $299 on top of delaying the launch, then we could talk, but then we'd also be urging the company to scrap its other 32-bit system, too...

You basically just described Xbox One and Kinect.

TrekkiesUnite118
11-16-2014, 02:50 AM
I agree that definitely would have helped -- the Saturn never really recovered from its "bad at 3-D" image those early titles left behind -- but the PlayStation would still be the odds-on consumer favorite by virtue of being $100 less than the competition. If we could go back in time and get Sega to launch at $299 on top of delaying the launch, then we could talk, but then we'd also be urging the company to scrap its other 32-bit system, too...

Nothing wrong with just scrapping the 32X entirely. As much as I love the thing, it really shouldn't have been released. As for Cost, Sega might have been able to advertise as a higher value since their system came with a game and Sony's didn't if I remember correctly. For example an ad showing that for the PS1 you need to get a game and a memory card which you didn't need to do with the Saturn could have made it look to be a better value. Or they could have price matched them which they originally did by September 1995 anyways if I remember correctly.

Kogen
11-16-2014, 03:12 AM
They should have made a model 3 Genesis: the SEGA Neptune. 32X built in and CD optional. That would be my favourite console if it existed. I actually love 32X graphics and sound, just the way you set it up is retarded. As a side add-on it is OK, but a real console was required.

Benjamin
11-16-2014, 03:31 AM
You basically just described Xbox One and Kinect.

The console race between Xbox One and PlayStation 4 is quite similar to the one between the Saturn and PlayStation. The only difference is that Microsoft has games and a service that have people choosing its system, and it didn't tarnish its brand coming into the launch the way Sega started doing.


As for Cost, Sega might have been able to advertise as a higher value since their system came with a game and Sony's didn't if I remember correctly. For example an ad showing that for the PS1 you need to get a game and a memory card which you didn't need to do with the Saturn could have made it look to be a better value. Or they could have price matched them which they originally did by September 1995 anyways if I remember correctly.

People never factor in those "hidden" charges though. The Saturn was the better value due to having oodles more built-in memory compared to the PlayStation along with the pack-in game, but people aren't going to care about save data storage going into a purchase, and Virtua Fighter was never a hit in the West to really make a difference and warrant the price increase.

Saturn did ultimately get a price cut, but by then the damage was done, and the huge drop in price came across as a desperate move to push a dying console. Developers had already picked up the better selling, easier to develop PlayStation, and that's where consumers went.

I believe a $299 launch with Virtua Fighter Remix would have helped, but we all know the Saturn was plagued with lots of issues anyway which held it back. I still think the flashy, full 3-D movement of Toshinden would have people picking it over Virtua Fighter Remix when judging a system. No great insight on my part, of course, since that's exactly what happened.

Kogen
11-16-2014, 03:34 AM
Toshinden is totally a household name.

A Black Falcon
11-16-2014, 05:09 AM
Blah blah blah. The console sold decently, had plenty of games, and had million sellers (such as Virtua Fighter 2). It did just as good if not better than N64. Failed consoles do not have this thing called 'success'.
Failed consoles lose money. The Saturn lost Sega a lot of money. Only Microsoft with its billions could redefine massive losses into "acceptable losses spent building our brand"; Sega wasn't like that, only a fraction that much losses drove them out of the industry. And yes, Japan didn't help there -- remember that despite the success for a couple of years, Sega's fading in '97 hurt them badly! The PS1 ended up lasting more than twice as long as the Saturn in Japan, and sold 3+ times better. The Dreamcast bombed hard at release in late '98, and never recovered. And isn't VF2 the ONLY million seller the Saturn ever had?

So yeah, the Saturn did okay in one region for a couple of years. It's great that it got that much at least, because it resulted in many great games. But unfortunately, it can't be called a "success", even just in Japan and ignoring the rest of the world. The short lifespan and failed (and far too early!) generation transition, and the financial losses, preclude that, I would say.


Nothing wrong with just scrapping the 32X entirely. As much as I love the thing, it really shouldn't have been released. As for Cost, Sega might have been able to advertise as a higher value since their system came with a game and Sony's didn't if I remember correctly. For example an ad showing that for the PS1 you need to get a game and a memory card which you didn't need to do with the Saturn could have made it look to be a better value. Or they could have price matched them which they originally did by September 1995 anyways if I remember correctly.
I agree entirely, of course. The only way to even begin to justify the 32X is to cancel the Saturn and release a more powerful and less expensive to build system in '96 instead, and even then, sticking with just the Genesis + Sega CD would probably have been the right choice. I love plenty of 32X games too, but it should never have happened, not if they were also releasing the Saturn at the same time.

Blades
11-16-2014, 06:03 AM
The Dreamcast bombed hard at release in late '98, and never recovered.

Wasn't the Dreamcast launch one of the most successful of all time?

Kogen
11-16-2014, 06:11 AM
Saturn killed SEGA even though it had a successful run and had a successor. N64 had a successor and a successful run too.


Wasn't the Dreamcast launch one of the most successful of all time?

Yeah. DC only failed due to SEGA's president dying. There was nothing wrong with the hardware or software. They even had a large-storage, ethernet, DVD model in the works that would have whooped Sony's butt. SEGA of America took advantage of the situation to kill SEGA, then their president quit to join EA.

A Black Falcon
11-16-2014, 06:13 AM
Wasn't the Dreamcast launch one of the most successful of all time?
The US launch (September to December 1999) was, yes; sales slipped starting in January '00 and didn't recover, but it did have a good first few months, yes, and okay but not great enough sales after that.

The Japanese launch in December 1998, however, was a disaster; sales were awful, there were no games (hope you like Virtua Fighter 3tb, because that's one of the only games that was available at launch!), supply was limited (they had far too few systems made; slow production was one reason the US launch wasn't until 9 months later) and the failure rate apparently was too high, and this all resulted in the system crashing hard out of the gate and never recovered. Sega proved that they had learned very little from the Saturn's launch failure in the West, and repeated some of the same mistakes with the DC -- a too-early launch with too few games that cut off a more successful platform while gamers would rather have still supported the last system for longer. In Japan, only the seriously hardcore owned Saturns. This is why all Dreamcast games released after its death in April 2002, save only four [KOF '00, KOF '01, KOF '02, and Puyo Puyo Fever], were shmups and visual novels (yes, ALL except for those four were in those two genres) -- two genres aimed right at that tiny super-hardcore fanbase that had actually bought Dreamcasts.

You know that fabled US DC launch with so many great games, etc? That only happened as a result of Sega waiting a quite long time after the Japanese launch before they actually released it here. We had 9 months of software all at once, with none of the software droughts, with more systems available to buy, with some new games from Western publishers like Midway, with fewer of the hardware problems, with a modem included with the system (yes, the Japanese launch systems didn't come with the modem), etc. Unfortunately, failing badly in Japan hurts, it's one of the largest markets... and the DC never got over like 2% marketshare there, sadly enough.


Saturn killed SEGA even though it had a successful run and had a successor. N64 had a successor and a successful run too.
The difference between the N64 and the Saturn is that the N64 was a profitable console that Nintendo made money off of, while the Saturn was a financial failure that lost Sega probably hundreds of millions of dollars. Also the N64 sold more than triple the number of systems worldwide that the Saturn did thanks to its success in the US; that matters too.

For Nintendo, their big failures so far are the Virtual Boy (in all regions); the N64 (in Japan only); the Gamecube (particularly in the US, where Nintendo lost half of the N64's audience to Microsoft, while failing to make any gains anywhere); and the Wii U (everywhere), unless things turn around for that last one.


Yeah. DC only failed due to SEGA's president dying. There was nothing wrong with the hardware or software. They even had a large-storage, ethernet, DVD model in the works that would have whooped Sony's butt. SEGA of America took advantage of the situation to kill SEGA, then their president quit to join EA.
:lol: Quite a fantasy here... but in reality, the Dreamcast crashed and burned from day one in Japan. The US is the only region that it did okay in, and even here it stalled as soon as PS2 hype got going just months after its release.

Sega left the hardware market because they were running out of money. Sega didn't release a DVD-based Dreamcast because they couldn't afford it. I absolutely think that they should have, yes -- if the DC had had a DVD drive from day one, with perhaps a 1999 release date everywhere instead of the foolhardy 1998 Japanese launch that went so terribly badly, I think it would have done MUCH better for Sega. It's too bad they couldn't afford to do that. Sega was going broke. They could have kept going, but they were clearly losing, and the DC wasn't selling up to expectations. Sega of America didn't kill Sega, Sega of Japan was in charge and had the primary responsibility. If Sega of America "killed the Dreamcast" in early 2001, it was only because the US was the only region where the DC had actually sold okay up to that point, so it was up to Sega of America to look at things again and decide if the situation was salvageable. But after looking at the PS2's launch and the upcoming Gamecube and Xbox, while Dreamcast sales lagged, they knew it wasn't. If Sega had had money, they wouldn't have had to do what they did (Microsoft probably lost more on the Xbox in one year than Sega lost on the Saturn and Dreamcast combined in their whole lives...), but Sega never had even Nintendo dollars, much less Sony or Microsoft. They were probably doomed as a first party anyway because of that, in the long run... being a hardware manufacturer costs more every generation!

Benjamin
11-16-2014, 06:41 AM
Toshinden is totally a household name.

Among those interested in video games at the time, it certainly was. You had all the magazines raving about it, and Sofia was deemed popular enough to be a Sony mascot for a while.

Kogen
11-16-2014, 04:50 PM
The difference between the N64 and the Saturn is that the N64 was a profitable console that Nintendo made money off of, while the Saturn was a financial failure that lost Sega probably hundreds of millions of dollars. Also the N64 sold more than triple the number of systems worldwide that the Saturn did thanks to its success in the US; that matters too.

For Nintendo, their big failures so far are the Virtual Boy (in all regions); the N64 (in Japan only); the Gamecube (particularly in the US, where Nintendo lost half of the N64's audience to Microsoft, while failing to make any gains anywhere); and the Wii U (everywhere), unless things turn around for that last one.

N64 shipped 33 million, Saturn sold 10. We can only assume 'shipped' is half sold, so 15 million. Yeah, N64 did better outside Japan while Saturn did better in Japan. It was a success in Japan.



:lol: Quite a fantasy here... but in reality, the Dreamcast crashed and burned from day one in Japan. The US is the only region that it did okay in, and even here it stalled as soon as PS2 hype got going just months after its release.

Sega left the hardware market because they were running out of money. Sega didn't release a DVD-based Dreamcast because they couldn't afford it. I absolutely think that they should have, yes -- if the DC had had a DVD drive from day one, with perhaps a 1999 release date everywhere instead of the foolhardy 1998 Japanese launch that went so terribly badly, I think it would have done MUCH better for Sega. It's too bad they couldn't afford to do that. Sega was going broke. They could have kept going, but they were clearly losing, and the DC wasn't selling up to expectations. Sega of America didn't kill Sega, Sega of Japan was in charge and had the primary responsibility. If Sega of America "killed the Dreamcast" in early 2001, it was only because the US was the only region where the DC had actually sold okay up to that point, so it was up to Sega of America to look at things again and decide if the situation was salvageable. But after looking at the PS2's launch and the upcoming Gamecube and Xbox, while Dreamcast sales lagged, they knew it wasn't. If Sega had had money, they wouldn't have had to do what they did (Microsoft probably lost more on the Xbox in one year than Sega lost on the Saturn and Dreamcast combined in their whole lives...), but Sega never had even Nintendo dollars, much less Sony or Microsoft. They were probably doomed as a first party anyway because of that, in the long run... being a hardware manufacturer costs more every generation!

Nice block of rambling. DC had a great launch and was doing good until SEGA's owner died. Not his fault he had a random heart attack and idiots took over. Console gaming has been shit since then. Essentially the whole Japanese development scene died.


Among those interested in video games at the time, it certainly was. You had all the magazines raving about it, and Sofia was deemed popular enough to be a Sony mascot for a while.

Video game magazines only sold to a minority of nerds to be blunt. I got a PS1 in 1998 because Spyro looked like Sonic and it was affordable. I doubt I could even pronounce Toshinden, nor would I care honestly, it looks stupid from what I have seen.

TrekkiesUnite118
11-16-2014, 09:35 PM
N64 shipped 33 million, Saturn sold 10. We can only assume 'shipped' is half sold, so 15 million. Yeah, N64 did better outside Japan while Saturn did better in Japan. It was a success in Japan.



I'm a massive Saturn fanboy and even I have to admit this is utter nonsense. The N64 did better worldwide than the Saturn, there's no doubt about that. Saturn probably beat it in Japan, but again PS1 was by far number 1. Saying only half of the N64's shipped numbers sold is complete nonsense. the N64 was everywhere in the US. Just about all my friends who had a PS1 also had an N64. On the other hand most of my friends had no clue what a Sega Saturn was.

As for the Dreamcast, it's no secret it fell flat on it's face in Japan. Throw in the fact Sega was selling it at a huge loss causing them to bleed money and you didn't have a good situation. If Sega had the money Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft had they could have pushed through to make it a success. But they weren't in that financial position.

j_factor
11-16-2014, 10:57 PM
Among those interested in video games at the time, it certainly was. You had all the magazines raving about it, and Sofia was deemed popular enough to be a Sony mascot for a while.

Toshinden was on the cover of Next Gen and all, but it wasn't really a breakout title in terms of sales. It sold about the same as various other "hits" in the Playstation's early days, such as WipEout, Warhawk, Destruction Derby, ESPN Extreme Games, Doom, etc. -- which is to say respectably, but not amazingly. The best selling games were Tekken, Ridge Racer, NFL Gameday, Twisted Metal, and Rayman. Though I guess these games had a longer shelf life, especially Rayman, so "at the time" sales may be a bit different.

Kogen
11-17-2014, 02:25 AM
I'm a massive Saturn fanboy and even I have to admit this is utter nonsense. The N64 did better worldwide than the Saturn, there's no doubt about that. Saturn probably beat it in Japan, but again PS1 was by far number 1. Saying only half of the N64's shipped numbers sold is complete nonsense. the N64 was everywhere in the US. Just about all my friends who had a PS1 also had an N64. On the other hand most of my friends had no clue what a Sega Saturn was.

As for the Dreamcast, it's no secret it fell flat on it's face in Japan. Throw in the fact Sega was selling it at a huge loss causing them to bleed money and you didn't have a good situation. If Sega had the money Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft had they could have pushed through to make it a success. But they weren't in that financial position.

Logically I can only assume in a fair manner that half of what was shipped was sold. Get me a real number if you want, although I barely care. Assumptions are not non-sense, they are estimates.

SEGA could have made DC a success like it was at first if they did a second model. But like I said, they were sabotaged and taken advantage of by American businessmen. Sonic Adventure I recall sold over a million in Japan, making it the most successful Sonic game there. I recall Crazy Taxi being a huge hit outside of Japan as well.

Not sure why your friend is clueless. I know what a Saturn is and I own one. I do admit half of the good games are Japanese only.

A Black Falcon
11-17-2014, 02:33 AM
N64 shipped 33 million, Saturn sold 10. We can only assume 'shipped' is half sold, so 15 million. Yeah, N64 did better outside Japan while Saturn did better in Japan. It was a success in Japan.
:lol: Uhh... no, ther'es no console ever which only sold half of the systems that were shipped. That's insanely ludicrous. :lol:

Sure, actual N64 sales numbers were probably a few million under 33 million, but it was close to that number. Meanwhile, that Saturn number you mention? The actual supposed "sold" number is 9.5 million, and I question it. We know that the system sold about 1.5 to 2 million systems in the US, ~1 million in Europe in early '98, and was at about 5 million in Japan in early 1998. That's 7.5 to 8.2 million sold that we actually know of, plus an unknown number that sold in Japan from '98 on; the system was fading out, but surely still sold something.

And then we have a "9.5 million total" number from a very unreliable source article that's loaded with mistakes and doesn't cite where it got its numbers from. Are there actual sales numbers to back this up? Because from the numbers we actually know, getting to even 8 million total sold is not certain, never mind "9" or "10". Those US and European numbers are almost certainly just about the final sales numbers (Saturn sales in the US collapsed in spring 1997 after Bernie Stolar decided the system needed to die, the system sold very few systems after that point... and even fewer after 1997. We've seen the sales chart, it's posted elsewhere on the forum. And in Europe the situation wasn't too different.), and the "2 million" US number might be too high. That '5 million' Japan number isn't the final number, but did the Saturn sell two million more systems in Japan in 1998-2000 as it died out? That's the only way to get to that "9.5 million" number that article claimed. It's possible, but I'm skeptical; I'd guess 8-9 million worldwide, probably. Maybe it's 9.5, but it's extremely unlikely to be higher. Meanwhile, Nintendo sold at least triple that number worldwide that generation, and actually made a profit off of it too.


Nice block of rambling. DC had a great launch and was doing good until SEGA's owner died. Not his fault he had a random heart attack and idiots took over.
Once again, this is completely false. The system crashed hard in Japan and failed there from day one. Only in the US was it doing even okay, never mind "great", and the "great" period in the US ended in January 2000.

Also, Isao Okawa died in March 2001. The Dreamcast failed in Japan starting from the month of its release, December 1998, and failed in the US in 2000, as sales stagnated. As I've said plenty of times before, the Dreamcast finished behind both the PS1 and the N64 in hardware sales in every single month of 2000 in the US, January through December! Yeah, sales were okay, but Sega needed better than "okay" in order to survive as a hardware maker. Okawa was still alive in January 2001 when Sega decided that its holiday 2000 sales numbers in the US weren't good enough to justify staying in the hardware business; remember that Sega announced it was going third party in January 2001.


Console gaming has been shit since then. Essentially the whole Japanese development scene died.
Uh, no, Japanese console development died with the 7th gen -- that is, the PS3/Wii/360 generation -- not with Sega leaving the industry. The PS2 had one of the best lineups of Japanese games of any console ever... but then the generation after that costs got too high, and Japanese developers retreated to handhelds. The problem is that Japanese developers always relied first on sales in their home market, but the Japanese market isn't large enough to support many current or last-gen AAA development team budgets. The only way to solve this would be to make more games that would sell internationally, but some didn't want to try and others did but it didn't work out, while handheld (and now cellphone) gaming in Japan boomed, and we got the game industry today.


Video game magazines only sold to a minority of nerds to be blunt. I got a PS1 in 1998 because Spyro looked like Sonic and it was affordable. I doubt I could even pronounce Toshinden, nor would I care honestly, it looks stupid from what I have seen.
Well, the PS1 wasn't a big hit in the West until 1997 (FFVII!), but among gamers, Toshinden was one of the Playstation's biggest names in 1995. It was absolutely a big deal among gamers, and we all knew the name, whether or not we'd played it.


Logically I can only assume in a fair manner that half of what was shipped was sold. Get me a real number if you want, although I barely care. Assumptions are not non-sense, they are estimates.
An absolutely insane "half of shipments don't sell" statement is in absolutely no way fair. That could never, ever happen to any system that sold to any significant degree, and surely never has. The only case I know of where that actually happened is the Jaguar, where Atari said that by early '96 they had produced 250,000 Jaguars, but had only sold half that many. They eventually sold a lot of the rest at fire-sale clearance prices after discontinuing it. But other than that, it's never happened. N64 sales numbers are admittedly not going to match production numbers, but they're going to be close.


SEGA could have made DC a success like it was at first if they did a second model. But like I said, they were sabotaged and taken advantage of by American businessmen. Sonic Adventure I recall sold over a million in Japan, making it the most successful Sonic game there. I recall Crazy Taxi being a huge hit outside of Japan as well.
Seriously, you need to listen sometimes! Once again, the Dreamcast sold TERRIBLY in Japan. It failed there badly. 2% market share max, poor sales from month one. This is an absolute fact. It was not "American businessmen" who doomed the Dreamcast in Japan. It was Sega of Japan's poor decisions that they'd made consistently for some years by that point.

And as for the US, the Dreamcast died here in 2000 thanks to the PS2 and PS2 hype. Not "American Businessmen".

And anyway, as I said, Sega was doomed as a hardware maker anyway, because they didn't have the cash reserves to be able to afford to stay in for much longer! 7th gen game development was quite expensive, I can't imagine Sega managing to afford that unless they struck Wii-like gold...


Not sure why your friend is clueless. I know what a Saturn is and I own one. I do admit half of the good games are Japanese only.
Uh, what? It's a lot like the Sega Master System, a failure of a console that sold only 1 or 2 million systems (in North America) and lots of gamers never even heard of. It's very, very easy to imagine gamers that gen who had never heard of the Saturn. I'm sure there were millions of them. And of course, also consider that the Saturn died halfway through the generation! 1997-1999 were the biggest sales years for the N64 and PS1, and 2000 was pretty good too. But the Saturn died in '97 thanks to its failure and Bernie Stolar, and after that it didn't exist. Lots of people hadn't even bought a next-gen console at that point.

TrekkiesUnite118
11-17-2014, 02:48 AM
Logically I can only assume in a fair manner that half of what was shipped was sold. Get me a real number if you want, although I barely care. Assumptions are not non-sense, they are estimates.

Yet when we look at media create sales and NPD data we see that the sales are actually pretty close to Nintendo's shipment numbers.

This graph should give you a good idea of how both the Saturn and the Dreamcast really sold:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1682/urwf.jpg

Notice the Saturn flatlines in 1997 and that the Dreamcast never outsells the PS1 and struggles to outsell the N64.


SEGA could have made DC a success like it was at first if they did a second model. But like I said, they were sabotaged and taken advantage of by American businessmen. Sonic Adventure I recall sold over a million in Japan, making it the most successful Sonic game there. I recall Crazy Taxi being a huge hit outside of Japan as well.

Sega was already bleeding money and as you can see the Dreamcast couldn't even outsell old systems, let alone the PS2, GC, or Xbox. How was Sega supposed to turn it around with a new model when they already had warehouses overflowing with unsold systems? People seem to forget that a lot of Dreamcast Sales came after it was discontinued and was being sold in bargain bins.


Not sure why your friend is clueless. I know what a Saturn is and I own one. I do admit half of the good games are Japanese only.

Of course you know what a Saturn is, you're a Sega fan. But newsflash, most people outside of the Sega fanbase know little to nothing about their systems, let alone the obscure ones. A lot of non Sega people think the Saturn is the same thing as the Sega CD when you bring it up. I know growing up almost none of my friends knew what the hell a Saturn was, most likely because the System was dead by 1997 here and never made a big splash.

j_factor
11-17-2014, 04:37 AM
ITT: People seriously replying to Kogen

Gogogadget
11-17-2014, 07:58 AM
If you're referring to Sonic Colors I'd like to know how that was shit. That was one of the best Sonic games to come out in a while.

Not always trying to be that guy, but 'one of the best Sonic games in a while' isn't really much of a qualifier.

Sonic Colors... worked. I'll give it that.

SperglordLava
11-17-2014, 08:34 AM
Sonic Colors was Sonic Unleashed 2 with lots of 2D sections and boring puzzles. The DS version was Sonic Rush 3, so that sucked. I remember playing it and you just boosted and talked to Sonic's retarded friends.

Bottino
11-17-2014, 10:55 AM
That's seriously awesome and a very pleasant surprise. I personally thought that Sonic X-Treme would never see the light of day.
Looking forward to next updates.

Also, it would be great to not poison this thread with these ridiculous "modern-Sonic-sux-Stupid-failed-Sega" discussions.

negative chill
11-17-2014, 01:04 PM
Also, it would be great to not poison this thread with these ridiculous "modern-Sonic-sux-Stupid-failed-Sega" discussions.

That kind of comes with the territory

Jeckidy
11-17-2014, 03:38 PM
I'm glad Dione Warwick left the Sonic Friends Network.

SperglordLava
11-17-2014, 04:13 PM
That's seriously awesome and a very pleasant surprise. I personally thought that Sonic X-Treme would never see the light of day.
Looking forward to next updates.

Also, it would be great to not poison this thread with these ridiculous "modern-Sonic-sux-Stupid-failed-Sega" discussions.
Well it's kind of true. The last partially decent Sonic game was Sonic Generations. Within a span of over ten years, that's pretty much been the best thing Autism Team could come up with. Before that, we had a couple decent titles like Sonic Advance, Sonic Adventure (Still full of glitches, but makes the list due to being the best 3D Sonic game not made by fans), and Sonic Pocket Adventure (Mostly because it copied the classics). Practically everything after that was about as appealing as pouring bleach down my dick hole and watching it burn a bigger hole. What was after that? Heroes? Shadow? Riders? Secret Rings? Black Knight? Rush? 06? Rivals? Unleashed? Sonic 4? Just pure shit left and right. Sonic Mega Collection Plus and Sonic Gems Collection were the best Sonic games released after like, Advance 1. A re-release of Sonic the Fighters in some collection game is more worth my money than any of the shit listed above.

A Black Falcon
11-17-2014, 04:49 PM
Bah, Secret Rings is the best Sonic game since Sonic Adventure 2!

SperglordLava
11-17-2014, 04:57 PM
The Storybook games were retarded. Just boring fan fiction made into broken games on the Wii that no one bought unless they had asperger's syndrome.

Barone
11-17-2014, 05:23 PM
The Sonic fanboy routine:

void SonicFanboy (string thread_title)
{
if (thread_title.contains("sonic"))
{
while(true)
{
DoDrama();
}
}
}

SperglordLava
11-17-2014, 05:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQhjJ0BLxT0
"STOP HATING ON SONIC, YA FRICKEN FANBOYS! THE SONIC CYCLE IS OVERRRRRRRRR!!! SONIC 4, SONIC COLORS, AND SONIC GENERATIONS WERE GOOD GAMES!!!"

retrospiel
11-17-2014, 05:47 PM
If Sega had the money Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft had they could have pushed through to make it a success. But they weren't in that financial position.

I tend to disagree. I'd argue that it cost them more money to discontinue the console than to just slowly start releasing third party games for Nintendo/Sony/MS on the side.

Besides, Kogen actually is correct about Sega of America being the driving force behind the discontinuation:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?26364-Former-Sega-VP-has-passed-away&p=623309&viewfull=1#post623309

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132517/the_rise_and_fall_of_the_dreamcast.php?page=7

Moore's Manifesto of the Future

In September 2000, well before the year's biggest sales months had taken place, Peter Moore and Charles Bellfield wrote a report called the "Manifesto of the Future," which they presented to all of Sega of Japanese executives and the studio heads in Japan, including creative heavyweights such as Yu Suzuki (AM2), Yuji Naka (Sonic Team), Rikiya Nakagawa (AM1/Wow Entertainment) and Toshihiro Nagoshi (AM4/Ausement Vision) among others.

"I remember it like it was yesterday," said Bellfield. "We presented a strategy in September 2000 that said we were not viable as a hardware player in the States beyond Christmas 2000 and that we needed to get out of the hardware business. That meeting was the first time Japan had ever heard that we could not be successful against the power of Microsoft, who had not yet announced their intention to come into the space, but we knew they were."

"They were hearing from the one region, the US, that had been successful with the Dreamcast launch, that the future of the Dreamcast was not going to be rosy. North America was the one lifeline that they had left -- that maybe success in the US would allow them to bridge doing another hardware platform, or to extend the life of this platform, or allow it to be reinvented in Japan and Europe."

"When we told them that staying in the hardware business was not our advice, the next thing that happened was all of the heads of all the studios got up and walked out without saying a word. That, in the Japanese culture, is pretty rude. But they were shocked."

Moore's document stated that Sega was arguably one of the greatest software companies ever, and it should focus on its major strength: software."


I think Okawa later realized he had ruined his life's work when agreeing to Moore's Manifesto which is why he donated 700 million dollars to the company shortly before he died.

spiffyone
11-17-2014, 06:03 PM
Sega was already bleeding money and as you can see the Dreamcast couldn't even outsell old systems, let alone the PS2, GC, or Xbox.

To be fair, i don"t believe either gc or xbox outsold ps1 for quite some time as well. And it typically takes quite a while for a newly launched system to outsell previous gen leaders (about a year or so after the launch month). What really hurt Sega was having unsold inventory, not not outselling the previous gen leader (PS1).


People seem to forget that a lot of Dreamcast Sales came after it was discontinued and was being sold in bargain bins.

I can't find the links right now, but IGN had a breakdown of what Sega had in unsold inventory and it amounted to about 2.5-3 million units. When DC truly hit "bargain bins" (the $49.99 price point) there were just about 500k left unsold.

Folco
11-17-2014, 08:42 PM
As for the Dreamcast, it's no secret it fell flat on it's face in Japan. Throw in the fact Sega was selling it at a huge loss causing them to bleed money and you didn't have a good situation. If Sega had the money Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft had they could have pushed through to make it a success. But they weren't in that financial position.
That was Sega big mistake that ruined the company.
DC simply wasn't selling good enough for the losses Sega was taking on hardware for them to hope to return to profitability.
The whole Dreamcast project was a move dictated by desperation and pride.


:lol: Uhh... no, ther'es no console ever which only sold half of the systems that were shipped. That's insanely ludicrous. :lol:

When talking about a console total sales it is always used the total shipment worldwide provided by the manufacturer because it is a precise figure as it gets.

PS1 LTD: 102.49M
N64 LTD: 32.93M
Saturn LTD: 9.26M
Dreamcast LTD: 9.13M



I can't find the links right now, but IGN had a breakdown of what Sega had in unsold inventory and it amounted to about 2.5-3 million units. When DC truly hit "bargain bins" (the $49.99 price point) there were just about 500k left unsold.
DC total shipment as March 2001: 8.20M
Sega DC unsold inventory "dumped" at fire sales the following fiscal year: 0.93M

The actual stocks at retail was likely indeed in the million, US total sales at retail provided by NPD as March 2001 was 2.89M.
Total DC sold in US as 2002 provided by NPD is 4.01M.

A Black Falcon
11-17-2014, 09:05 PM
I tend to disagree. I'd argue that it cost them more money to discontinue the console than to just slowly start releasing third party games for Nintendo/Sony/MS on the side.

Besides, Kogen actually is correct about Sega of America being the driving force behind the discontinuation:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?26364-Former-Sega-VP-has-passed-away&p=623309&viewfull=1#post623309

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132517/the_rise_and_fall_of_the_dreamcast.php?page=7

Moore's Manifesto of the Future

In September 2000, well before the year's biggest sales months had taken place, Peter Moore and Charles Bellfield wrote a report called the "Manifesto of the Future," which they presented to all of Sega of Japanese executives and the studio heads in Japan, including creative heavyweights such as Yu Suzuki (AM2), Yuji Naka (Sonic Team), Rikiya Nakagawa (AM1/Wow Entertainment) and Toshihiro Nagoshi (AM4/Ausement Vision) among others.

"As you can imagine, what was happening was that we were very close to the business," said Moore. "The writing ultimately was on the wall regarding the challenges to sustain the hardware business in the face of the financial difficulties Sega had at the time and the impending launch of the PS2. So we went over there as responsible business people should do and presented what was going on in North America."

"I remember it like it was yesterday," said Bellfield. "We presented a strategy in September 2000 that said we were not viable as a hardware player in the States beyond Christmas 2000 and that we needed to get out of the hardware business. That meeting was the first time Japan had ever heard that we could not be successful against the power of Microsoft, who had not yet announced their intention to come into the space, but we knew they were."

"They were hearing from the one region, the US, that had been successful with the Dreamcast launch, that the future of the Dreamcast was not going to be rosy. North America was the one lifeline that they had left -- that maybe success in the US would allow them to bridge doing another hardware platform, or to extend the life of this platform, or allow it to be reinvented in Japan and Europe."

"When we told them that staying in the hardware business was not our advice, the next thing that happened was all of the heads of all the studios got up and walked out without saying a word. That, in the Japanese culture, is pretty rude. But they were shocked."

Moore's document stated that Sega was arguably one of the greatest software companies ever, and it should focus on its major strength: software."


I think Okawa later realized he had ruined his life's work when agreeing to Moore's Manifesto which is why he donated 700 million dollars to the company shortly before he died.
I have already said it, but the Dreamcast was discontinued bcause:

1) Sega was running out of money.
2) The system crashed and burned in Japan and sold terribly there.
3) US sales flattened off in 2000; the system had no momentum after its solid launch in '99.

By September 2000, saying that Sega was doomed as a hardware maker was just stating the obvious. The PS2 released that holiday season! Sega gave it a try, and pushed it in the US, but they failed, and so in January they announced they were leaving. But based on only Japan, Sega might have had to give up even sooner, considering how awful Japanese DC sales were!

Also, there had been internal talk in Sega of Japan about leaving hardware too. I'm pretty sure of this. It just wasn't a majority opinion... until their finances faded, and it became clear that their only chances were probably bankruptcy eventually, or leaving the hardware business. They chose the latter.




That was Sega big mistake that ruined the company.
DC simply wasn't selling good enough for the losses Sega was taking on hardware for them to hope to return to profitability.


When talking about a console total sales it is always used the total shipment worldwide provided by the manufacturer because it is a precise figure as it gets.

PS1 LTD: 102.49M
N64 LTD: 32.93M
Yeah, both of these numbers are slightly above actual sales of course, but they're all the numbers we really have, and most shipped systems did sell.


Saturn LTD: 9.26M[quote]
Hmm, interesting. I wonder what the regional breakdown of that is... 1M Europe, 1.5M US, 6.75M Japan? Or was the US or EU final totals slightly higher? I imagine we don't know what the real breakdown is, but it's interesting to try to figure it out. I know we have "1M Europe, 2M US, 5M Japan" numbers from early '98, but I think that US number is a bit high, isn't it... and that doesn't add up to 9.26 million, and the only way for it to would be, like, 1.25M hardware sales in Japan in '98-'00. Which seems a bit high, going by how the system was pretty much dead after the end of '98. But who knows, maybe it did sell that much.

[quote]Dreamcast LTD: 9.13M

DC total shipment as March 2001: 8.20M
Sega DC unsold inventory "dumped" at fire sales the following fiscal year: 0.93M
Hmm, so is that "10.5 million DCs sold" number wrong too? Or did it sell much in Japan after March '02? I'm not at all surprised, if that number is wrong. I just thought the DC outsold the Saturn...

Folco
11-17-2014, 09:17 PM
Wasn't the Dreamcast launch one of the most successful of all time?
Yes, at the time the US launch was the best ever however sales afterwards were disappointing.
Look at the trajectory (US figures provided by NPD):
1999: 1.48M (roughly 4 months)
2000: 1.28M
2001 and 2002: 1.25M (at fire sale prices)

EDIT:


Hmm, so is that "10.5 million DCs sold" number wrong too? Or did it sell much in Japan after March '02? I'm not at all surprised, if that number is wrong. I just thought the DC outsold the Saturn...
A sale number isn't right or wrong, it's reliable or not (that is it is provided by an entity you have faith in).
DC LTD I posted was obtained by summing DC LTD as March 2001 with the unsold inventory Sega declared was dumping during the next fiscal year.
Sincerely I don't see how Sega would produce more systems (I believe production was halted in January 2001 or earlier) or push more systems at retail after March 2002.

You can verify the number reading financial reports which are still available on SegaSammy site.

About Saturn regional breakdown, my rough guess is
Japan: 6M
America: 2M
Europe/Other: 1M


I have already said it, but the Dreamcast was discontinued bcause:

1) Sega was running out of money.
2) The system crashed and burned in Japan and sold terribly there.
3) US sales flattened off in 2000; the system had no momentum after its solid launch in '99.

You missed the more important factor IMO, that is Sega was running out of money because the DC business was severely bleeding money.
Sega was too much aggressive and the bet counterfired.

If memory serves me right the operating income of the arcade division was more or less stable compared to past years so the death of arcades outside Japan wasn't really a cause in Sega demise.
The death of the "arcade culture" though was a huge blow for Sega...

A Black Falcon
11-17-2014, 09:53 PM
Yes, at the time the US launch was the best ever however sales afterwards were disappointing.
Look at the trajectory (US figures provided by NPD):
1999: 1.48M (roughly 4 months)
2000: 1.28M
2001 and 2002: 1.25M (at fire sale prices)
Yeah, you can also see this on the chart quoted earlier in the thread, the DC did well at first and then faded.


EDIT:

A sale number isn't right or wrong, it's reliable or not (that is it is provided by an entity you have faith in).
That's true.


DC LTD I posted was obtained by summing DC LTD as March 2001 with the unsold inventory Sega declared was dumping during the next fiscal year.
Sincerely I don't see how Sega would produce more systems (I believe production was halted in January 2001 or earlier) or push more systems at retail after March 2002.
Well, Dreamcast games released in Japan until 2007, remember. It's reasonable to assume that some small-ish number of systems were sold each year from the back stock they had probably built up. Think of how Nintendo sold the Famicom until, like, 2005 or something, with small numbers of sales each year. You're right though, I would expect that most sales there would have happened between December '98 and April '02, the period that Sega was releasing first-party titles for the system in Japan. But it's likely there were some sales after that... the only question is if it actually added up to anything significant. But if that 9.26 million number is the real, final Saturn sales number, it seems possible that the DC could have gotten the 130k sales needed to match the Saturn's total, perhaps... That's a small gap.


You can verify the number reading financial reports which are still available on SegaSammy site.
When did Sega start putting hardware sales in their financial reports, anyway? Haven't they never gone back and said official by-region shipment numbers, unlike Sony and Nintendo who have both done that?


About Saturn regional breakdown, my rough guess is
Japan: 6M
America: 2M
Europe/Other: 1M
For US Saturn sales, I just struggle to see how sales get up to 2 million considering the reality of the chart we have: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?28833-Sonic-X-Treme-Unearthed&p=693177&viewfull=1#post693177 Those other numbers look quite reasonable, though.


You missed the more important factor IMO, that is Sega was running out of money because the DC business was severely bleeding money.
I didn't miss it, I just wasn't explaining the reasons, just that they were. And anyway, they had multiple reasons for being so low on money.


Sega was too much aggressive and the bet didn't pay off.

If memory serves me right the operating income of the arcade division was more or less stable compared to past years so the death of arcades outside Japan wasn't really a cause in Sega demise.
The death of the "arcade culture" though was a huge blow for Sega...
I'm pretty sure I remember reading that arcade revenues declined at some point in the DC's life, or the Saturn/DC era... you think that arcade revenues were stable? That would be surprising, if true; I thought that the arcade decline and the Dreamcast were both major causes of Sega's running out of money.

Regardless of that, though, remember that Sega had never had as much cash as Nintendo, or the size of a Sony or Microsoft. None of those others would be driven out with Sega-like losses; they've all lost more in some years, particularly more recently, and done fine because they are larger or have big cash reserves. Sega was relatively small and consistently poor at saving money, and it eventually did them in. Sega made so many major money-losing mistakes in the '90s, in between making a lot of great games...

Folco
11-17-2014, 10:13 PM
I'm pretty sure I remember reading that arcade revenues declined at some point in the DC's life, or the Saturn/DC era... you think that arcade revenues were stable? That would be surprising, if true; I thought that the arcade decline and the Dreamcast were both major causes of Sega's running out of money.

Revenue decline from the FY '98 apex but didn't fall off badly.
The arcade business was always profitable.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=65998361&postcount=182

j_factor
11-18-2014, 03:05 AM
Well, Dreamcast games released in Japan until 2007, remember. It's reasonable to assume that some small-ish number of systems were sold each year from the back stock they had probably built up. Think of how Nintendo sold the Famicom until, like, 2005 or something, with small numbers of sales each year. You're right though, I would expect that most sales there would have happened between December '98 and April '02, the period that Sega was releasing first-party titles for the system in Japan. But it's likely there were some sales after that... the only question is if it actually added up to anything significant. But if that 9.26 million number is the real, final Saturn sales number, it seems possible that the DC could have gotten the 130k sales needed to match the Saturn's total, perhaps... That's a small gap.

They weren't selling new Dreamcast systems anymore at that late date. I don't recall when exactly they ran out of new Japanese units but it was much earlier than 2007. When Puyo Puyo Fever came out in early 2004, there were some stories that Sega was restarting Dreamcast sales in Japan, but that was based on a mistranslated web page, and all they did was sell refurbished units through Sega Direct. There was a "bundle" with the game and system but it wasn't a true retail bundle, just a package deal with a slight discount for buying both. They did the same thing when Radirgy came out two years later.


For US Saturn sales, I just struggle to see how sales get up to 2 million considering the reality of the chart we have: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?28833-Sonic-X-Treme-Unearthed&p=693177&viewfull=1#post693177 Those other numbers look quite reasonable, though.

That chart doesn't label the Y axis, so you can't really tell how many units were sold. Even if you were to attempt to reconstruct the scale by counting the distance in pixels in spots where we know the approximate number, the resolution is too low to deduce decent numbers out of it. Also, NPD data doesn't represent total sales. It's useful for comparison purposes, but not accurate in absolute numbers. Only major retailers report to the NPD; independent stores, which were more numerous in the 90s than they are now, didn't. And it excludes sales in Canada.

A Black Falcon
11-18-2014, 05:10 AM
Revenue decline from the FY '98 apex but didn't fall off badly.
The arcade business was always profitable.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=65998361&postcount=182
Ah, right. That's still very bad for Sega's revenues, though! I mean, with the DC underwhelming, their only hope was good arcade revenues... but those were declining, not improving or staying flat. That certainly made a bad situation worse.


They weren't selling new Dreamcast systems anymore at that late date. I don't recall when exactly they ran out of new Japanese units but it was much earlier than 2007. When Puyo Puyo Fever came out in early 2004, there were some stories that Sega was restarting Dreamcast sales in Japan, but that was based on a mistranslated web page, and all they did was sell refurbished units through Sega Direct. There was a "bundle" with the game and system but it wasn't a true retail bundle, just a package deal with a slight discount for buying both. They did the same thing when Radirgy came out two years later.
Yeah, the question is about when they ran out. If they sold, like, a couple thousand systems a year from April '02 on for a couple of years, then the Saturn won overall in sales. But if they managed 125k total, then the Dreamcast might have. I'd imagine it'd probably mostly depend on how much they sold in FY2003 (April '02 to March '03), since later on I'm sure sales were negligible...


That chart doesn't label the Y axis, so you can't really tell how many units were sold. Even if you were to attempt to reconstruct the scale by counting the distance in pixels in spots where we know the approximate number,
This is very possible, we know many of those Chistmas-season peaks.


the resolution is too low to deduce decent numbers out of it.
Look at the full-size image, I think it's high enough resolution to see things clearly: http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1682/urwf.jpg


Also, NPD data doesn't represent total sales. It's useful for comparison purposes, but not accurate in absolute numbers. Only major retailers report to the NPD; independent stores, which were more numerous in the 90s than they are now, didn't. And it excludes sales in Canada.
This is true, Canada and minor retailers weren't figured into those numbers. That is a good point. Actual North America sales would be a bit above NPD numbers. Canada's small, and most games and systems sell at major retailers, but not all of them.

Folco
11-18-2014, 05:38 AM
Yeah, the question is about when they ran out. If they sold, like, a couple thousand systems a year from April '02 on for a couple of years, then the Saturn won overall in sales. But if they managed 125k total, then the Dreamcast might have. I'd imagine it'd probably mostly depend on how much they sold in FY2003 (April '02 to March '03), since later on I'm sure sales were negligible...

I have no idea why you are so interested in the narrative of one console "winning" over another.
You can say by the shipment data provided by Sega that Saturn outsold Dreamcast but it doesn't really matter.
Also 130K in this context are peanuts.

j_factor
11-18-2014, 11:48 AM
Yeah, the question is about when they ran out. If they sold, like, a couple thousand systems a year from April '02 on for a couple of years, then the Saturn won overall in sales. But if they managed 125k total, then the Dreamcast might have. I'd imagine it'd probably mostly depend on how much they sold in FY2003 (April '02 to March '03), since later on I'm sure sales were negligible...

They definitely didn't have any more to sell by early 2004. That's very clear. Sales would have stopped by late 2003 at the absolute latest, and probably earlier.


This is very possible, we know many of those Chistmas-season peaks.

Look at the full-size image, I think it's high enough resolution to see things clearly: http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1682/urwf.jpg

Yeah, I tried but the image isn't good enough. Look at mid-98 for the Saturn; it looks like it goes up and down slightly, but it just registers as basically zero the whole time. The line and the points aren't perfectly aligned, and it's tough to gauge distance when it's so close to the axis. Look also at late '97 -- the line seems to show a slight decline for October, but when you zoom in and look at just the points, they're at the same height. Now obviously sales would be a low number for all of these times, but when we're talking about only 2 million units total, several instances of a low number will add up to a fairly significant chunk of that.

Moirai
11-18-2014, 12:10 PM
Just going by what I've seen locally. I know more people that had saturns back in the day than had dreamcasts back in the day. Also I see more saturn consoles floating around in the wild than I do dreamcasts. However, I see more Dreamcast games than saturn games. I think dreamcast owners were more die-hard gamers and bought more games or something...

A Black Falcon
11-18-2014, 06:57 PM
Just going by what I've seen locally. I know more people that had saturns back in the day than had dreamcasts back in the day. Also I see more saturn consoles floating around in the wild than I do dreamcasts. However, I see more Dreamcast games than saturn games. I think dreamcast owners were more die-hard gamers and bought more games or something...
I don't know where you live, but in North America the Dreamcast sold more than twice what the Saturn did -- a bit over 4 million for the DC, 2 million max for the Saturn. I'm not sure how the Dreamcast sold in Europe, but given that the Saturn only sold a million there, the DC probably did better there as well.


They definitely didn't have any more to sell by early 2004. That's very clear. Sales would have stopped by late 2003 at the absolute latest, and probably earlier.
Yeah, 2003 at the latest does sound reasonable, if by '04 all they were offering was refurbished systems.


Yeah, I tried but the image isn't good enough. Look at mid-98 for the Saturn; it looks like it goes up and down slightly, but it just registers as basically zero the whole time. The line and the points aren't perfectly aligned, and it's tough to gauge distance when it's so close to the axis. Look also at late '97 -- the line seems to show a slight decline for October, but when you zoom in and look at just the points, they're at the same height. Now obviously sales would be a low number for all of these times, but when we're talking about only 2 million units total, several instances of a low number will add up to a fairly significant chunk of that.
Ah right, I see what you mean. Yeah, figuring out Saturn numbers after March '97 on that chart would be pretty hard, the system is just so few pixels above the bottom of the line!

Barone
11-18-2014, 07:08 PM
the system is just so few pixels above the bottom of the line!
lmao! Sorry, I can't rep you again, ABF. But that part made me laugh quite a bit.

Blades
02-10-2015, 05:18 AM
Holy Christ guys.

f9EUDlC6vsI

GriskaGyoran
02-10-2015, 07:59 AM
Maybe I wasn't listening, or just being the poop-nose I usually am, but is there any chance of seeing a Saturn port? Because I'd buy that in a second.

maxi
02-10-2015, 10:15 AM
Maybe I wasn't listening, or just being the poop-nose I usually am, but is there any chance of seeing a Saturn port? Because I'd buy that in a second.
The guy with the original material is working directly on the Saturn development board, so the game, so far, is being tested on the console and emulator. There's also a guy in sonicretro that is receiving material to implement on his project for PC, that is current a lot more advanced since it started around 2010.
In a worst-case scenario we will receive, eventually, an unfinished but working Saturn game and a complete PC release with personal adaptations by the developer of the unfinished parts.

Moirai
02-10-2015, 12:07 PM
I don't know where you live, but in North America the Dreamcast sold more than twice what the Saturn did -- a bit over 4 million for the DC, 2 million max for the Saturn. I'm not sure how the Dreamcast sold in Europe, but given that the Saturn only sold a million there, the DC probably did better there as well.
I live in Kentucky, louisville area

j_factor
02-10-2015, 01:46 PM
So... the PC version of Sonic X-treme was an NV1 game? Somehow I missed that detail until just now.

Blades
02-11-2015, 05:42 AM
Maybe I wasn't listening, or just being the poop-nose I usually am, but is there any chance of seeing a Saturn port? Because I'd buy that in a second.

From Sonic Retro.


To my knowledge, Jolly's goal is to get all three versions (Modern PC, Windows 95/NV1, and Saturn) to the same playable state.
The Saturn is the last platform he's going to be working on since it'll be the most difficult and likely the most time consuming, but with the code from the previous versions already in place it'll probably be a lot easier to port over than if he'd done it with the Saturn version first.
Things could change in the future, but Jolly has done good work so far so it's certainly possible.

Moirai
02-11-2015, 02:44 PM
I'm waiting for SEGA to release this officially, kinda like that sonic CD widescreen port

16-bit
02-11-2015, 03:06 PM
I'm waiting for SEGA to release this officially, kinda like that sonic CD widescreen port

I don't think they ever will. It's unlike any company to put work into a prototype that's almost 20 years old.

Melf
02-11-2015, 03:28 PM
I tend to disagree. I'd argue that it cost them more money to discontinue the console than to just slowly start releasing third party games for Nintendo/Sony/MS on the side.

Besides, Kogen actually is correct about Sega of America being the driving force behind the discontinuation:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?26364-Former-Sega-VP-has-passed-away&p=623309&viewfull=1#post623309

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132517/the_rise_and_fall_of_the_dreamcast.php?page=7

Moore's Manifesto of the Future

In September 2000, well before the year's biggest sales months had taken place, Peter Moore and Charles Bellfield wrote a report called the "Manifesto of the Future," which they presented to all of Sega of Japanese executives and the studio heads in Japan, including creative heavyweights such as Yu Suzuki (AM2), Yuji Naka (Sonic Team), Rikiya Nakagawa (AM1/Wow Entertainment) and Toshihiro Nagoshi (AM4/Ausement Vision) among others.

"I remember it like it was yesterday," said Bellfield. "We presented a strategy in September 2000 that said we were not viable as a hardware player in the States beyond Christmas 2000 and that we needed to get out of the hardware business. That meeting was the first time Japan had ever heard that we could not be successful against the power of Microsoft, who had not yet announced their intention to come into the space, but we knew they were."

"They were hearing from the one region, the US, that had been successful with the Dreamcast launch, that the future of the Dreamcast was not going to be rosy. North America was the one lifeline that they had left -- that maybe success in the US would allow them to bridge doing another hardware platform, or to extend the life of this platform, or allow it to be reinvented in Japan and Europe."

"When we told them that staying in the hardware business was not our advice, the next thing that happened was all of the heads of all the studios got up and walked out without saying a word. That, in the Japanese culture, is pretty rude. But they were shocked."

Moore's document stated that Sega was arguably one of the greatest software companies ever, and it should focus on its major strength: software."


I think Okawa later realized he had ruined his life's work when agreeing to Moore's Manifesto which is why he donated 700 million dollars to the company shortly before he died.

I don't know. If you're going to go by the manifesto, you also have to take into account that what Moore was saying about the DC's success was true. The US was its strongest market, and it was falling behind. Even so, the DC sold better in the US than in Japan. Okawa had to donate that money because SEGA was in bad shape overall, not just the U.S. The PS2 would have crushed the DC completely within 3 months of its launch. Hell, I remember EB Games offering $100 for people's DCs in trade-in MONTHS before the PS2 even arrived.

I honestly don't understand the belief that the US side of SEGA killed it. If you look historically, the only reason SEGA lasted as long as it did was because of the success it had in America. Of more than a half-dozen platforms released, only the Saturn saw major success in Japan, and the greatest sales in SEGA history all came from America. SEGA's on death's door right now, and that's ALL on Japan. There isn't any real product development done in the US anymore. The company has never had strong Japanese management capable of looking beyond Japan. That's why it was never able to sustain any momentum.

Cornholio857
02-23-2015, 10:33 PM
Playable build of Sonic Xtreme released!

http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=34038

I'll definitely be trying this out.

Blades
02-23-2015, 11:05 PM
RADICAL

EDIT: Holy shit it's awesome. I never thought I'd be able to play the Xtreme E3 Jade Gully.

I also never thought about how unfinished the game was exactly.

Cornholio857
02-24-2015, 12:13 AM
Just got done trying this out. VERY cool! I do know that more levels and builds are on the way, but this holds me over until then. I explored the whole map by rapidly tapping the jump button and moving Sonic around (Similar to Knuckles' infinite jump glitch in Boom). Note that this one level build is not the fish-eye build (v40 IIRC).

So what are your opinions/thoughts about it?

Blades
02-26-2015, 09:30 PM
More levels to come.


This first public release consists of a Jungle level, which I like to refer to as "The E3 Jade Gully level" since it was shown in one of the E3 96 Promo videos.
Other levels are playable and all , but they are not featured in this teaser release. Rest assured they will be released in the final release that also addresses some bugs.


*The next port to be done will be of version 040 which has the fisheye lens effect. V040 can also run on Sega Saturn hardware. ( with a good FPS mind you) There is also a mysterious build by the now defunct Point of View studios. POV's build version is for Sega Saturn as well and uses 100% original code separate from the STI's code.

We're experiencing history, folks.

If the code from the PC version ever get released, I'm pretty sure the world will end.

oeoX6M50iCM

wzvS_beXtXk

Cornholio857
02-26-2015, 11:59 PM
If the code from the PC version ever get released, I'm pretty sure the world will end.

JollyRoger has stated that he will eventually release the binaries that the source builds, but not the source to Ofer's engine out of respect for him. I can't wait til the next release though! :cool:

Blades
02-27-2015, 12:43 AM
No way, he doesn't have that code.

Cornholio857
02-27-2015, 12:52 AM
No way, he doesn't have that code.


Ok, here is a summary of all the activities that are going on at once:


1) Finding semi-complete tech demos of cancelled games that can be released as-is. So far I have done:
1a) Found and tested early tech demo of IMSA GT for Playstation, which eventually became Sports Car GT. Included is a car viewer and a very early demo of running a car in the Road Atlanta track, with music.
1b) Found and tested concept demo of Command and Conquer: Commando for Playstation, which I guess is/became C&C Renegade. Included is a character viewer, a rough terrain viewer and a demo of the main character running around on the Road Atlanta race track (yes, it is weird)
1c) Asked ASSEMBLER what is the best way to release these, where to upload them, which forum section to use, etc. (no reply yet)




2) Finding assets in the Sonic archives that have never been released before
2a) I wrote a binary compare tool and already found lots of PCX images that are not part of previous releases. I am in conversation with andrew75 as to how to handle/release these assets.

3) Analyze the differences between all the (Sonic) source code trees spread around the archive, and all the tools present in the archive

4) Analyze the source code of PC/NVidia NV1 version of the Sonic engine (Ofer's), all its required tools/dependencies and how to make it run on my old PIII machine
4a) NV1 SDK has been obtained, and the code seems to build properly, but I have no way to test it until I have a NV1 card to run it on.
4b) Find a Diamond Edge 3D card (not found yet)
4c) The version of the engine present in the archive has been heavily biased towards using the NV1 and Saturn systems, and it doesn't build without using one of the two "backends". I am investigating what the code needs to be compiled/run without either of the two. I found parts of the source code to have provisions to be compiled for Mac as well, which confirms everything that has been said about Ofer's code.

5) Analyze the complete Saturn build environment required to build the Saturn version of the Sonic engine (Ofer's), by analyzing the tools present in the archive and their references to many build paths

6) Analyze the Sonic Editor (Ofer's) (different build of the same source tree, with additional dependencies)

7) Understand how to build the Sonic POV engine for Saturn (pieces of the build system seem to use the PSYQ toolchain, other pieces the Sega toolchain)

I have not found any design documents so far, but it doesn't mean there are any, the archive is rather large and I have inspected only a part.

Please be patient, I am not a student nor I have infinite time to work on this, so it's going to take a while.

Jollyroger

He does and he has confirmed that he has made multiple back-ups. :D

Blades
02-27-2015, 12:58 AM
Does that mean this engine is the one powering the levels in the videos?

IIRC the leak a few years back had the actual levels in the videos but no engine.

Cornholio857
02-27-2015, 01:06 AM
Does that mean this engine is the one powering the levels in the videos?

IIRC the leak a few years back had the actual levels in the videos but no engine.

I believe so, I could be wrong though. If it is, it would be the v040 build which you quoted above (unless there were later builds). And yes, that leak had all the level assets but no engine.

Blades
02-27-2015, 01:07 AM
:cool:

spiffyone
02-27-2015, 06:06 PM
So is this playable on Saturn, or is it the windows build?

Vector
03-01-2015, 07:03 AM
..i agree..ironically now i am glad it did not get released..let mario have the 3d masterpiece on n64 it was much deserved..this would have been a slow paced not really sonic but a sonic name game anyway..this might have not helped the saturn at all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmmLle2FqLA

Hidden_Darkness
03-01-2015, 12:51 PM
this is awesome, once I get another computer i'll definately be downloading this playable level. this was the game I wanted a saturn for as a kid, I was really disappointed when it got canceled.

Da_Shocker
03-02-2015, 01:47 AM
Excellent work SonicRetard with that being said with that being said I still think when everything is said and done this will still end up being a mediocre game. As for people crying foul on Yuji Naka for not allowing them to use the NiGHTS engine take a look at NiGHTS when you're playing on the ground levels as Claire or Ellis it looks terrible. Playing Sonic in NiGHTS looks awful. As much as I liked Burning Rangers it still looks really terrible in some sections. The NiGHTS engine is at best when it's used as a 2D based on rails racing game to hide the limitations of the Saturn or the engine itself.

Baloo
03-02-2015, 01:57 AM
I'm not going to lie, this game still looks unplayable.

Blades
03-07-2015, 07:21 PM
I believe so, I could be wrong though. If it is, it would be the v040 build which you quoted above (unless there were later builds). And yes, that leak had all the level assets but no engine.

Well the world won't be ending anytime soon, I asked on Retro.





Awesome.

Does this mean we have the resources for a playable version of this?

wzvS_beXtXk

That build of the engine featured in those videos is a much, much later PC build, the same one pitched to SEGA's PC division. Only Chris Senn and Ofer Alon were working on it at this point, as the rest of the team went with POV and their older engine from Ofer (the engine we have). Sadly there is no way to get this build, unless Ofer still has it and is willing to share. What we have is an early build much like the E3 trailer.

The assets in Jolly's archive are very interesting nonetheless, as many of the levels found in it have never been seen outside of the E3 trailer and magazine previews. We're also getting the POV engine, which nobody outside of STI has ever seen before.

Cornholio857
03-07-2015, 10:54 PM
Yeah, I saw your post. I'm very appreciative of what was found, sucks we likely will never see that build. Sadly, Ofer will probably keep that build to himself. Can't really blame him though.

Blades
10-24-2015, 05:55 AM
New release. Loooots of new levels. Looks like it includes the infamous photoshopped checkerboard test level (1:04)

http://www.unseen64.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/SONIC2-150x150.jpg


== V037 Engine release 3 ==
== With all 037 levels + More levels ==


Hey guys this is the Biggest release yet! This Mega release includes over 150 levels!
Many of which were never seen by the public before !

BT4YwOXzxP0


For the latest release of Jollyroger's modern Windows port for Ofer's V037 NV1 engine, This release breaks away from the "AS IS" state of our last release by adding:
*the ability to play music.
*Incorporates A camera distance Function which can be tweaked in each .def file to counterbalance level depth scaling differences vs Sonic's distance to camera.
*The engine now has a Global configuration file for Sonic's main physics attributes among other engine settings. (like V038 and above)
*Over 150 playable original STI experimental test levels are now included in the release, however many are duplicate files which
have different adjusted attributes like texture physics settings to help slow or speed sonic up in specific situations. Or are snapshots in time showing a level's development history from start to finish.

Each and every Level.def file that is playable with the release engine had to be edited like so:
*Sonic's main Physics were stripped out.
*Player parameter changed from Static to player.
*New Camera parameters set up and adjusted, to match camera distance between levels that had different depth scaling.
* Some color pallet links corrected.
*Replace all Ring and Enemy Blocks with Actors so that Sonic could pass threw them, and possibly interact with them in a future release.
*Attempted to tweak physics in the new Global file to make the game feel a little more playable.

Besides the modified levels, All of the original Level files and assets are also included in this leak in an unmodified form,
including levels that do not work with our engine since the levels are from older engine builds that we do not have.
There are also partial levels for other builds of the game as well.

Mega (https://mega.nz/#%21pdBRCKLQ%21dqvt4b08EdFoCnd259Jb7lTYbDD54imGsH4 JL8IQPS8)
Mediafire (https://www.mediafire.com/?4ofa2622q5mvs20)

Peeteris
08-30-2017, 06:25 PM
Probably will get blamed because of reviving old thread, but I felt very sentimental and sorry about Sonic xtreme lately for no reason.
Maybe there are any new information popped out regarding to Sonic Xtreme, Mars, Saturn?

Team Andromeda
07-12-2018, 05:46 AM
Well in this Months Retro gammer. Kats Sato confirmed what I always suspected and that's that the game was a pile of crap and that's why it was dropped.

Moirai
07-12-2018, 11:06 AM
Sonic xtreme doesn’t look that fun to play at all

Somehow I doubt it would’ve done much to “save” the saturn

Leynos
07-12-2018, 12:39 PM
The game looked horrible. Starting with 3D Blast SEGA just hit a point they really did not know what to do with Sonic. Sonic didn't get bad with Shadow or Sonic06. No.Sonic got bad in the 90s as well. Sonic Blast is shit. Sonic 2 on GG has poor level design. Sonic Drift isn't good.3D Blast aside from OST is awful. Sonic R is an unfinished broken game. I'm not saying I don't like some of these as some of them are guilty pleasures. I even love the SA games but let's face it. They were not very good. Sonic Heroes again crap. Sonic Advance is good but only the first one. Rush...eh. I honestly think it took until Color/Generations for a genuinely great Sonic game to come out again since the mid-90s. Then got bad again lol until Mania. I do like Sonic but he's hadmore bad games than good ones.

axel
07-12-2018, 01:43 PM
The game looked horrible. Starting with 3D Blast SEGA just hit a point they really did not know what to do with Sonic. Sonic didn't get bad with Shadow or Sonic06. No.Sonic got bad in the 90s as well. Sonic Blast is shit. Sonic 2 on GG has poor level design. Sonic Drift isn't good.3D Blast aside from OST is awful. Sonic R is an unfinished broken game. I'm not saying I don't like some of these as some of them are guilty pleasures. I even love the SA games but let's face it. They were not very good. Sonic Heroes again crap. Sonic Advance is good but only the first one. Rush...eh. I honestly think it took until Color/Generations for a genuinely great Sonic game to come out again since the mid-90s. Then got bad again lol until Mania. I do like Sonic but he's hadmore bad games than good ones.

It's not easy to make a game like Sonic work in three dimensions, wish they had made a 2.5D platformer like we eventually got with Sonic 4. Could have looked great on the Saturn. But, it was the '90s, and EVERYTHING had to go 3D, even Bubsy!

Moirai
07-12-2018, 02:04 PM
Imagine a world where sonic 4 had been made on the Saturn, 2D with cool sprite effects, vdp2 effects, perhaps superscaler special stages, parts of levels where your character goes in the background, etc. a really impressive 2D Sonic probably would’ve done at least decently.

Leynos
07-12-2018, 08:14 PM
I have always wanted a 2D Sonic sidescroller that looks animated. Like how Cuphead looks but with the style of SEGA CD cutscenes animation.

Jeckidy
07-12-2018, 09:08 PM
Saturn did 2D well enough that we easily could've had a game like Sonic Mania, but westerners wouldn't have been too flattered with it because they are graphics whores and wanted stupid stuff like that instead.

Sonic and Mario is like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. Mario/DQ stay largely the same, but are still good for the most part. Sonic/FF try all these new, unpredictable ideas and while they get it right sometimes, there are a lot of stinkers put out in the process.

I would've liked a 3D Sonic Saturn game with the environments and look of Sonic the Fighters but of course, not a fighter at all. But, we know how poorly Saturn handled 3D games of this type. Xtreme was the closest we would've gotten to a 3D adventure Sonic. Even Sonic R had poor draw distances compared to later ports, and other issues.

Team Andromeda
07-13-2018, 08:37 AM
It's not easy to make a game like Sonic work in three dimensions, wish they had made a 2.5D platformer like we eventually got with Sonic 4. Could have looked great on the Saturn. But, it was the '90s, and EVERYTHING had to go 3D, even Bubsy!

After Mario 64 it all had to be 3D, you are spot on. Think is SEGA really should have ported Sonic CD to the Saturn added some new gfx tricks get rid of the slowdown, new 3D bonus stages and also Cinepak Full-screen FMV and that would have been great for the USA and Pal launches (or just after) .
It's also a shame we never got to see what Sonic Adv would have been on the Saturn before it was moved to the DC.

Cafeman
07-13-2018, 10:17 AM
Saturn did 2D well enough that we easily could've had a game like Sonic Mania, but westerners wouldn't have been too flattered with it because they are graphics whores and wanted stupid stuff like that instead.

But, we know how poorly Saturn handled 3D games of this type. Xtreme was the closest we would've gotten to a 3D adventure Sonic. Even Sonic R had poor draw distances compared to later ports, and other issues.

I agree with your thoughts, but don't forget about Sonic Jam and its 3D Sonic World level! Using that engine would have given us a great 3D Sonic Adventure style game. Imagine if they also included the 3D half pipe engine from Sonic 3D Blast, too. But it was too late for the Saturn at that point.

stu
07-14-2018, 02:02 AM
Think is SEGA really should have ported Sonic CD to the Saturn added some new gfx tricks get rid of the slowdown, new 3D bonus stages and also Cinepak Full-screen FMV and that would have been great for the USA and Pal launches (or just after) .



Why bother porting Sonic CD over to a new system like the Saturn? It would of been better to have delayed Sonic 3 and made that a Saturn launch title, could of had massively improved graphics and sound and we could of bought the game on one CD instead of across 2 carts. Frankly imo Sonic CD wasn't that great of a game and Sonic 3 and Knuckles is way better.

Ecco
07-14-2018, 03:56 AM
I have always wanted a 2D Sonic sidescroller that looks animated. Like how Cuphead looks but with the style of SEGA CD cutscenes animation.

Sonic Robo Blast is a 3D game with animation style artwork and traditional style of the early Genesis games, but in 3D.

You might like it.


14254



It plays great because no bottomless pits like the real 3D games. And the drawn art-style is nice.

Apparently it was built on a Doom engine IIRC.

I know you said 2D but this game does have a better 3D experience than the real games, and a dope hand-drawn art style.

Team Andromeda
07-14-2018, 06:20 AM
Why bother porting Sonic CD over to a new system like the Saturn? It would of been better to have delayed Sonic 3 and made that a Saturn launch title, could of had massively improved graphics and sound and we could of bought the game on one CD instead of across 2 carts. Frankly imo Sonic CD wasn't that great of a game and Sonic 3 and Knuckles is way better.

Becasue so many people didn't have a Mega CD and very few played Sonic CD compared to the Mega Drive series. SONIC CD was made with CD storage in mind and would have been a really nice simple quick fix. Just slightly improved Gfx with more colour and sprite effects, the same music, 60 fps bonus section will full scaling and all the Fmv full screen and much better quality. It would have been nice game to have at launch of the Saturn in the US and Pal.

No way was SEGA going to delay Sonic 3 until 1995.

Moirai
07-14-2018, 11:17 AM
Sega CD needed a sonic game. Saturn needed Sonic CD 2. 32X shouldn’t exist.

They could’ve called sonic on Saturn “Sonic S” or perhaps Sonic CD 2X in reference to the saturns 2X speed drive lol

Even in an age of 3D hype, I think a really GOOD 2D sonic that took advantage of the saturns capabilities would’ve sold pretty well... would’ve made an ideal pack-in game... also a more robust co-op mode with sonic and tails would be cool...

Also the 3 free games deal was weird.. why include Virtua Cop and not include a gun? Who wants a light gun game without a gun?!?

Jeckidy
07-14-2018, 08:01 PM
Even in an age of 3D hype, I think a really GOOD 2D sonic that took advantage of the saturns capabilities would’ve sold pretty well... would’ve made an ideal pack-in game... also a more robust co-op mode with sonic and tails would be cool...

True, but not everything had to be about Sonic. Virtua Fighter 1 and 2 were actually great pack-in games, even if most people tend to overlook the series when compared to other well-known fighters.


Also the 3 free games deal was weird.. why include Virtua Cop and not include a gun? Who wants a light gun game without a gun?!?

Believe it or not, I got really good with using the d-pad to move the cursor in Virtua Cop, enough so that I successfully finished the game with the pad several times. I never had the gun, which is useless now that CRTs are disappearing and light guns don't work on HDs.

Leynos
07-14-2018, 11:19 PM
If SEGA made a hybrid 2D/3D game like SOTN It might have done better than straight up 2D. As a launch game instead of maybe Clockwork Knight.