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View Full Version : Pre-'cast - Next Generation follows Black Belt - Dural - Katana



parallaxscroll
07-19-2015, 09:10 AM
I always appreciated NG's format and attention to tech detail, while still remaining readable.

http://i.imgur.com/ztiEnIp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/x0ZOcgT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/d9lGojU.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/nibiUyd.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/olrm2iA.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/PCyG3wT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Gpo5vza.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0rmcFjn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/d4S4muV.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ybbMjaF.jpg

Yharnamresident
07-19-2015, 06:25 PM
Man this is an amazing find, it will keep me entertained all tonight.

parallaxscroll
07-19-2015, 07:50 PM
Man this is an amazing find, it will keep me entertained all tonight.

Believe me, it was entertaining to read all of this again myself. Man, I really wish I had access to the next 6 months or so of NG issues, as during that time Dreamcast was revealed, tech demos & games shown, lots developer interviews, etc.

Yharnamresident
07-19-2015, 10:59 PM
Scud Race could've been my favourite racing game on the Dreamcast, if they actually made it.

parallaxscroll, you live in the same city as Adam Koralik. Go see if he has the magazines. Haha.

GriskaGyoran
07-20-2015, 07:40 AM
Question about Dreamcast development. I always suspected that the Blackbelt proposal was leaps and bounds more powerful than the Katana proposal which ended up being the Dreamcast. Is my suspicion true, or more or less false?

Benjamin
07-20-2015, 11:37 AM
Stuff like this kinda makes me regret dumping my couple of years of Next Generation on eBay so long ago, but I know it wouldn't take long for the magazine's bias against Sega and 2-D games and assorted crappy reviews to make me want to throw it all out again. It really was an attractive magazine, but the hivemind staff / lack of bylines still infuriates me.

parallaxscroll
07-20-2015, 08:05 PM
Question about Dreamcast development. I always suspected that the Blackbelt proposal was leaps and bounds more powerful than the Katana proposal which ended up being the Dreamcast. Is my suspicion true, or more or less false?

That's likely false. From my understanding there were aspects of both that had advantages and disadvantages. NEC / VideoLogic PowerVR Second Generation (PowerVR Series 2) in general had a more advanced feature set than anything 3Dfx had at the time. On the other hand, 3Dfx's Glide API was extremely easy to develop for.

Now specifically, the version of PowerVR Series 2 that went into Dreamcast (and NAOMI arcade board) was the CLX2 (aka PowerVR2DC), This was a custom chip that had higher performance than the PC version that was delayed by over a year, the PowerVR PMX aka PowerVR250 that was in the Neon250 graphics card.

The only thing that might have been 'leaps and bounds' better with the 3DFX powered Black Belt, is the western 3rd party support Sega would've gotten. EA did not support Dreamcast, and IIRC the main reason was because Sega went with PowerVR instead of 3DFX.

3DFX / Voodoo / Voodoo2 / Banshee and the Glide API had massive, massive support from third party devs, NEC / VideoLogic / PowerVR and their API had very little western support, mainly Japanese support, especially with the first generation PowerVR (PCX1, PCX2).

parallaxscroll
07-20-2015, 09:05 PM
Looks like I've got more articles :)

http://i.imgur.com/eA3juXi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vWpIwUM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/o2hLTVB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b03FMzi.jpg

parallaxscroll
07-20-2015, 09:28 PM
http://i.imgur.com/WSIIuvZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GuHtIys.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lNnyFbi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7bUoQ1E.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/L5YC4Ki.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ejYcOBR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/i4MZTNG.jpg

parallaxscroll
07-20-2015, 09:36 PM
http://i.imgur.com/IYYtVvm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vtRqGBw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ntxSkye.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rQuwEbb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wQ2MsK3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/onP4kd3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KFNUac2.jpg

Whew!

Yharnamresident
07-20-2015, 09:46 PM
So Adam did have the magazines?

parallaxscroll
07-20-2015, 09:51 PM
So Adam did have the magazines?

LOL, I have no idea, I've never talked to him.

Guntz
07-20-2015, 09:53 PM
"So why do we have to wait 18 months [for Dreamcast]? We decided to not launch this year so devs would have time to do software, without compromises just because of the system's launch"

I still think that was a big mistake. There was almost a whole year between Saturn's last US game (Magic Knight Rayearth, late 98) and the Dreamcast's US launch (sept 99). The Dreamcast really should have launched in the US in late 1998, or early 99 even. Even if the DC didn't have much at its Japanese launch, leaving the US market with no console and no games really hurt Sega's chances at weathering the Sony storm. In fact, the Japanese Dreamcast launch should have been delayed so the Saturn could have more time to wind down. Japanese DC in 99, US DC in 98.

parallaxscroll
07-21-2015, 12:26 AM
This should be the last set of Dreamcast articles from NG.

I included a bonus at the end, on Namco's original Ridge Racer coin-op arcade. the System 22 board. Why? Just for trivia I suppose.

See, in the premier issue of NG they had the specs [400 MFLOPS] as well as noting the polygon count and the fact that System 22 did gouraud shading, while Sega's Model 2 did not.
Years later, in 'Lifting The Lid On Dreamcast' they thought to mention that the SH4 CPU had more floating point performance [1.4 GFLOPS] than Ridge Racer arcade [0.4 GFLOPS].

And finally Namco's Japanese arcade flyer for Ridge Racer which mentions the same spec.


http://i.imgur.com/K6T5ONV.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8zBu6of.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oVa9nxI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vFe8qUN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/keFNbvE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/fQHHnJC.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/b4knKNL.jpg

Last but not least - If only Sega had brought this game to Dreamcast, they woulda' made me a happy camper.
Yes, here it was in an alpha state and I guess the title hadn't been finalized.

http://i.imgur.com/6z4Blmo.jpg

stu
07-21-2015, 01:22 AM
Looks like I've got more articles :)





These are great scans parallaxscroll I've sent some rep your way. , I was wondering if you had Page 16 of the July 1998 issue of NG and the rest of that NG special from August 1998 as it looks like it covered some of the info on the Project X system (eventually known as Nuon) I've always been interested to read more on that system.

Thanks

parallaxscroll
07-21-2015, 01:55 AM
No problem stu, here are the NG articles on VM Lab's Project X (what eventually became Nuon):

November 1997: http://i.imgur.com/qjKnt5P.jpg

January 1998:
http://i.imgur.com/DjtbbOL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ocH68X2.jpg

April 1998:
http://i.imgur.com/csyQ5ac.jpg

July 1998:
http://i.imgur.com/8oBI1ME.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/brimuAs.jpg

August 1998:
http://i.imgur.com/PoNN1vG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kRtCd35.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nYDLHOO.jpg

I'll try to get the entire Aug 1998 NG special up soon.

Yharnamresident
07-21-2015, 05:01 PM
I don't got time to read anything right now, but I just wanna say:

why is it so hard to find early info on the PS2? it seems the only info you can find, is after it was announced in March 1999. Or random crap like this:http://www.segatech.com/archives/october1997.html

I can't find any 1997 or 1998 PS2 articles.


And I can't believe someone found the PS3 specs in January 2002, despite a few inaccuracies:http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/14/t41821-ps3-news-speculation/

Guntz
07-21-2015, 06:16 PM
Did Project X turn into the Nuon DVD Player?

stu
07-21-2015, 06:29 PM
No problem stu, here are the NG articles on VM Lab's Project X (what eventually became Nuon):

November 1997:

January 1998:

April 1998:

July 1998:



August 1998:



I'll try to get the entire Aug 1998 NG special up soon.

Thanks for posting those parallaxscroll, those were a great read. I think I had the 1st article from an issue of Edge Magazine (UK version of Next Generation) but all the other articles were totally new to me and very interesting. One of the things I miss about those years (and also the previous years from 1993 through 1998) were huge variety of technologies being developed and worked on for video game systems, nowadays consoles are simply low end PC parts chucked in a relatively nondescript box, kinda boring these days. Thanks again, they made for some great reading this morning at breakfast. :)



Did Project X turn into the Nuon DVD Player?


Yes, unfortunately it had virtually no support from game developers and publishers and VM Labs who developed it got bought out and the new owner pretty much killed off the chip set. The system kinda bombed.

parallaxscroll
07-21-2015, 07:53 PM
Nuon bombed so badly, it made the original 3DO look like a huge success.

Yharnamresident
07-21-2015, 10:32 PM
I was just gonna say, why have I never heard of that console?

parallaxscroll
07-22-2015, 09:05 PM
Probably because it wasn't marketed a a video game console, but more or less 'enhanced' DVD players that had the ability to play games.

Pulstar
07-23-2015, 06:01 AM
Detailed coverage BITD was mostly exclusive to PC magazines. US magazines like EGM and Gamepro sucked big time, they mostly consisted of ads interrupted by stupid blurbs and grainy screenshots.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hJtaj3hByg

Yharnamresident
07-24-2015, 08:32 PM
"We're showing 30,000 polygons a frame in D2"

30,000 x 30 = 900,000 polygons per second.


And Guntz, I gotta agree. I think these magazines show that the Dreamcast hardware was finalized in early 1998. They waited until fall 1999 to release it in North America?

And none of those interviewers asked important questions. "I see the Dreamcast controller has a total of 7 buttons and only 1 analog stick. Won't that controller be outdated from the start?"

Guntz
07-24-2015, 08:58 PM
Yep, nearly a whole year went by with pretty much nothing from Sega of America. No new Saturn games or a DC launch. That just might be the nail that sealed the DC's fate. It wouldn't be so bad if they kept releasing Saturn games, but they didn't. DC would have been a lot better off with a Christmas '98 release. That would have rocked the world back then. Sure, there wasn't much available for the DC at that time, but it would have been a lot better than the reality we got instead.

Parallaxscroll, do you have any magazines articles on the 64DD? I'd love to see a thread like that.

Yharnamresident
07-25-2015, 12:04 AM
Yea most people don't understand how much Bernie screwed up. He thought it was fine to let the company have no console for almost 2 years.

And I also request magazine articles on early PS2 stuff.

I can help. The problem isn't finding the magazines that have PS2 info, its knowing which magazines have it.

These guys sure had low expectations for PS2:

http://i.imgur.com/3YAgq1D.png


http://i.imgur.com/rf2O59A.png

parallaxscroll
07-25-2015, 09:13 AM
The 'Did You Know Gaming?' Youtube channel had an episode on Dreamcast about six months ago and it was pretty good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfTv0IvGYwU

Even though there are some mistakes in the video, they at least managed to list the major 3D graphics chip companies Sega had worked with before settling on NEC/VideoLogic.

http://i.imgur.com/MvJYP1p.png

Kogen
07-25-2015, 11:05 AM
Jeffrey is Pachinko, Jacky is SEGA/Konami:

http://puu.sh/jckjh.jpg

parallaxscroll
08-02-2015, 11:53 AM
Okay now here is NG's interview with 3DFX's top brass following Sega terminating the graphics chip contract with them in favor of NEC/VideoLogic PowerVR.

http://i.imgur.com/IvW3juK.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/ajX8uPB.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/Vdn4gu4.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/jtnroUy.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/B0wU1LB.jpg?1

Pulstar
08-02-2015, 04:44 PM
3dfx was the top cheese back in the late 90s, everyone else was playing catch-up. The PowerVR wasn't a bad choice though.

Kind of wish 3dfx had been acquired by ATi instead.

gamevet
08-02-2015, 05:20 PM
"So why do we have to wait 18 months [for Dreamcast]? We decided to not launch this year so devs would have time to do software, without compromises just because of the system's launch"

I still think that was a big mistake. There was almost a whole year between Saturn's last US game (Magic Knight Rayearth, late 98) and the Dreamcast's US launch (sept 99). The Dreamcast really should have launched in the US in late 1998, or early 99 even. Even if the DC didn't have much at its Japanese launch, leaving the US market with no console and no games really hurt Sega's chances at weathering the Sony storm. In fact, the Japanese Dreamcast launch should have been delayed so the Saturn could have more time to wind down. Japanese DC in 99, US DC in 98.

It would have been a bigger mistake to launch early, without software. The DC bombed in Japan, because of their early launch with crap like Pen Pen Triicilon. The Saturn bombed in North America, because of an early launch and a lack of software.

The North American DC launch was the most successful launch to date, until the PS2 arrived. The North American market was also the most successful and that was because of the carefully planned software launch lineup and Sega getting Kiosks out to retail to show off the games before the launch.

parallaxscroll
08-02-2015, 06:54 PM
3dfx was the top cheese back in the late 90s, everyone else was playing catch-up. The PowerVR wasn't a bad choice though.

Kind of wish 3dfx had been acquired by ATi instead.

Sega was understandably furious when in June 1997 3Dfx released their IPO (initial public offering / prospectus) including statements about Voodoo Graphics architecture being the basis for the 3Dfx/Sega Chipset for Sega's next console and that an agreement had been reached that March.

From the 3Dfx IPO - Source: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1010026/0000891618-97-002713.txt


Voodoo Graphics technology is also the basis for the 3D media processor chipset that the Company is developing for license to Sega Enterprises, Ltd. ("Sega") for use in Sega's next generation consumer home game console


DEPENDENCE ON RELATIONSHIP WITH SEGA

In March 1997, the Company entered into a Technology Development and License Agreement with Sega (the "Sega Agreement"), under which the Company will develop and license to Sega the technology for a 3D media processor chipset (the "Sega/3Dfx Chipset") for use in Sega's next generation home game console product (the "New Sega Game Console"). The Sega Agreement grants Sega the exclusive right for three years to the Company's architecture solely for use in home game consoles. Through the end of 1998, the Company expects to earn development contract revenues and certain development bonuses provided that certain milestones set forth in the Sega Agreement are met. The Company will derive royalty revenue for each Sega/3Dfx Chipset incorporated into products sold by Sega. Therefore, the timely development of the Sega/3Dfx Chipset by the Company and the successful introduction and sale of the New Sega Game Console by Sega will be critical factors affecting the Company's future business, financial condition and results of operations. The Company has not yet completed development of the Sega/3Dfx Chipset, and there can be no assurance that the Company will successfully complete such development or, if such development is completed, that the Sega/3Dfx Chipset will perform as expected. Despite pre-release testing of the Sega/3Dfx chipset by the Company, there can be no assurance that, once the Sega/3Dfx Chipset is made available to Sega, performance errors and deficiencies will not be found, or if discovered, that the Company will be able to successfully correct such performance errors and deficiencies in a timely manner, if at all. If the Company is unable to complete the development of the Sega/3Dfx Chipset or successfully deliver it to Sega, the Company's business, financial condition and results of operations would be materially adversely affected.

There can be no assurance that Sega will ever introduce the New Sega Game Console. Published reports in the financial press have indicated that Sega may discontinue the manufacture and marketing of its home game console hardware. The Company's business, financial condition and results of operations would be materially adversely affected if Sega does not introduce the New Sega Game Console. If introduced, there can be no assurance that the New Sega Game Console will achieve market acceptance. The home game console industry has been characterized by unpredictable and sometimes rapid shifts in the popularity of products, by severe price competition and by frequent introductions of new technology and new products. Only a small number of products have achieved broad market acceptance. Such market acceptance has often followed intense competition between competing formats, such as those of Nintendo Company, Ltd. ("Nintendo") and Sony Corporation ("Sony"). Any competitive, technological or other factor adversely affecting the introduction or sales of the New Sega Game Console or related software titles would have a material adverse effect on the Company. Further, there can be no assurance that Sega will successfully manage the introduction of the New Sega Game Console.

As is typical with any new product introduction, quality and reliability problems may arise and any such problems may result in reduced orders, manufacturing rework costs, delays in collecting accounts receivable, additional service and warranty costs and a decline in Sega's competitive position. Further, Sega will not manufacture all major subassemblies and will be dependent on several vendors as manufacturers of such subassemblies. There can be no assurance that such vendors will manufacture such subassemblies on a timely basis and with acceptable quality, or, if demand for the New Sega Game Console increases, that such vendors will be able to accelerate production of the subassemblies to meet demand for such increases. Even if the New Sega Game Console is successfully introduced and does gain initial market acceptance, competitive products with comparable price and performance characteristics are likely to be introduced by competitors. This competition may reduce future market acceptance for the New Sega Game Console and result in decreased royalty revenues arising from the Sega/3Dfx Chipset. The failure of the Company to successfully develop and deliver the Sega/3Dfx Chipset or Sega's failure to successfully introduce and market the New Sega Game Console or its failure to achieve market acceptance would have a material adverse effect on the Company's business, financial condition and results of operations. See "Management's Discussion and Analysis of Financial Condition and Result of Operations

The entire IPO was literally brimming with the words 'Sega' (the word Sega is used 149 times!) and 'Sega/3Dfx Chipset' and 'New Sega Game Console', etc.

Not that Sega thought they did anything legally wrong, and there was a huge lawsuit between 3Dfx, NEC and Sega and it was settled, but anyway I digress.

Guntz
08-02-2015, 07:28 PM
It would have been a bigger mistake to launch early, without software. The DC bombed in Japan, because of their early launch with crap like Pen Pen Triicilon. The Saturn bombed in North America, because of an early launch and a lack of software.

The North American DC launch was the most successful launch to date, until the PS2 arrived. The North American market was also the most successful and that was because of the carefully planned software launch lineup and Sega getting Kiosks out to retail to show off the games before the launch.

Maybe, maybe not. The big problem that the super successful Dreamcast launch couldn't fix was the whole year that went by without any new Saturn games. That was seriously wasted potential. The Saturn did badly with its early launch because it was competing with the Genesis and 32X. An early DC wouldn't have had any competition.

gamevet
08-03-2015, 07:24 AM
Maybe, maybe not. The big problem that the super successful Dreamcast launch couldn't fix was the whole year that went by without any new Saturn games. That was seriously wasted potential. The Saturn did badly with its early launch because it was competing with the Genesis and 32X. An early DC wouldn't have had any competition.

How do you figure that the Dreamcast wouldn't of had any competition in 98, while the Saturn would have it from the older 16-bit machines?

The Dreamcast would of had the Playstation at its prime in 98, along with the N64 (sold its lion's share in North America) that had finally gotten 3rd party support pumping out games. The DC would have done nothing to change people's perceptions of Sega in North America, without the support of Sega Sports and key 3rd party titles to support the launch. The software lineup for the DC in 1998 was pathetic.

parallaxscroll
08-04-2015, 07:59 AM
A side by side comparison between Daytona USA 2 Battle On The Edge and Daytona USA 2001.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmJd4ZsNMeU

Also, VF3 arcade real hardware (not emulated) 720p60 off-screen videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihBCn5hfOJQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKBbwUtmmPY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqsRphMEv6k

Yharnamresident
08-05-2015, 02:36 AM
How do you figure that the Dreamcast wouldn't of had any competition in 98, while the Saturn would have it from the older 16-bit machines?

The Dreamcast would of had the Playstation at its prime in 98, along with the N64 (sold its lion's share in North America) that had finally gotten 3rd party support pumping out games. The DC would have done nothing to change people's perceptions of Sega in North America, without the support of Sega Sports and key 3rd party titles to support the launch. The software lineup for the DC in 1998 was pathetic.

Either way, the Dreamcast would've died. It needed to be designed as not a stopgap system

Pulstar
08-05-2015, 07:25 AM
Now we're talkin'! Sega-16 revisionism is the best revisionism :D

parallaxscroll
08-09-2015, 07:51 PM
Now we're talkin'! Sega-16 revisionism is the best revisionism :D

Always!

Yharnamresident
08-11-2015, 12:47 AM
Are you guys still magazine hunting? I found a couple good articles, but they were in Spanish. I do not have the ability to read Spanish.