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tryphon
09-22-2015, 05:06 AM
Just to show that my port begins to look like a game :)
It improves slowly, not because of coding difficulties (though there are some) but because of lack of free time.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x37hky3

Some notes :

1) Colors are wrong

I coded a quick and dirty converter for the arcade arts, and it messes colors (more exactly, some different colors are converted to the same MD color). I'll rewrite that later.

Moreover, for the moment I still haven't decided how to handle palettes. I think I'll use palette 1 for Musashi, HUD, and maybe hostages, palettes 2 & 3 for ennemies, and palette 3 for backgrounds. Unfortunately, that's much less than the arcade, so I can't be sure that the final result will be nicer, just different (brighter and more contrasted)

2) There's no collisions between sprites

That's my next job.

3) Some hotspots are misplaced

I'll do that when I'll be in testing phase.

4) The engine is still not optimized

Because "premature optimization is the root of all Evil". That said, some optimization will be easy. If it isn't sufficient, I'll rewrite routines in pure asm (should not be too hard once the engine architecture will be stable, and it's easier to design in C)

5) There are sometimes one quick ghost frame here and there

It's hard to debug, because it happens rarely, it lasts only one frame and is hardly noticeable, and it's not reproductible.
I bet it's due to a too long VBLANK, so it should be fixed with optimization. If not, I'll have a deeper look inside.

6) Other than that

Musashi can move (all his moveset is implemented, with the exception of magic), the background scrolls, the ennemy has an AI similar to the arcade (the simplest AI of the game).

If something feels wrong, don't hesitate to criticize.

Tor Landeel
09-22-2015, 07:41 AM
Wow! Even if it's still an early job, it already has a very good feeling!

djcc
09-22-2015, 09:00 AM
Code-wise, are you working from the arcade assembly or you're writing it from scratch?

Nightwolf
09-22-2015, 10:04 AM
Great, great... great!!! :_) Love Shinobi arcade!!

LinkueiBR
09-22-2015, 12:03 PM
https://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/its_beautiful.jpg?w=720

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tryphon again."

Wesker
09-22-2015, 12:14 PM
I love where this is going. :)

Even if the palettes are not quite right, it already looks better than the PC Engine version for example.

EPSYLON EAGLE
09-22-2015, 12:37 PM
Very exciting!

Mad Moham
09-22-2015, 12:51 PM
That looks so cool!

It has me wondering why there was never an official version for MD, I can't wait to see where this project goes, good job so far.

maxxfarras
09-22-2015, 01:21 PM
Watch that short demo in the video was an great experience. I been waiting for someone to do something like this for years. Thanks for sharing!

Tryphon, If you consider that eventually you need some help with by hand palette conversion please let me know.

For other side, I did some palette conversion for a never released sega master system version years ago using just a single 16 color subpalette for all sprites (of some stages I think) including musashi. It looked good IMO, even if not very acurate.

I will look for that pics and I will send them to you. Dont sure if will be useful for you as an reference for help you to decide how to share the subpalettes for the megadrive, but nothing is lost if I send it to you :p

chilled
09-22-2015, 01:43 PM
Amazing! I often dream about a 32meg Shinobi MD that kicks the butt of the SMS version. I also wish someone did proper 32meg early MD ports like Golden Axe and the like

maxi
09-22-2015, 02:54 PM
Good to see this level of progress! But I still think the game should use the sprites of the remake (but with Joe Musashi's cloth changed to white, like the sequels):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihOBflmNMxY

cabear
09-22-2015, 03:23 PM
Nah, that redesigned joe sprite looks too much like hanzo from Sam Sho. A proper shinobi port has to look as arcade perfect as possible!

tryphon
09-22-2015, 05:52 PM
Wow! Even if it's still an early job, it already has a very good feeling!

Thanks! I studied the game frame per frame to figure out the physics.


Code-wise, are you working from the arcade assembly or you're writing it from scratch?

From scratch, using SGDK. That said, I used some ideas from the game engine of Shadow Dancer MD. I'd like to read the arcade disassembly (would it be only to get some data quite annoying to enter by hand, like the bounding boxes, hit boxes or whatever boxes) but have no idea how to get this disassembly (a MAME ROM is a set of several files, I don't know which is data or code, if data and code are separated or mixed...)


Watch that short demo in the video was an great experience. I been waiting for someone to do something like this for years. Thanks for sharing!

Tryphon, If you consider that eventually you need some help with by hand palette conversion please let me know.

For other side, I did some palette conversion for a never released sega master system version years ago using just a single 16 color subpalette for all sprites (of some stages I think) including musashi. It looked good IMO, even if not very acurate.

I will look for that pics and I will send them to you. Dont sure if will be useful for you as an reference for help you to decide how to share the subpalettes for the megadrive, but nothing is lost if I send it to you :p

Thanks. I saw your pm and it looks indeed impressive using only 16 colors ! I may need some help for gfx later in the development process, if I'm not satisfied with my results. I'll make you know then. And you'll have more than 40 colors to work with! (wooh!)


Good to see this level of progress! But I still think the game should use the sprites of the remake (but with Joe Musashi's cloth changed to white, like the sequels)

I know this remake. I didn't use its sprites for 2 reasons :

1) I'm fond of the arcade original (I finished it when I was 11, instead of going to school :P )

2) the remake sprites use another resolution and much more color than the original (the System16 has the same resolution than MD, but slightly more colors) so it needs much more work to convert and redesign the remake sprites for MD. If you feel inclined to do this work, I'll gladly include them in my port. I can even import the 2 sets and let the player decide.

BladeJunker
09-22-2015, 06:12 PM
What great time to be alive, Shinobi on the Gen/MD, no offense to the other platforms but it belongs on a Sega 16-bit platform. :D

The timing does look good on the physics, feel is big part of being arcade perfect that can get overlooked. :|

Don't you dare use any remake sprites, it's just not the same when he isn't rescuing albino orphan children that look like Casey from the Mr. Dressup show. :lol:
http://i.cbc.ca/1.3184129.1438998381!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_620/mr-dressup.jpg
Part of my Canadian childhood if you've never heard of him. :)

I really like the way Joe looks in original game as he never looked like that again, to me it personified what a modern ninja is while later revisions went more traditional.

Anyway thank you tryphon for attempting this port, I wait patiently for it's completion. :)

negative chill
09-22-2015, 06:30 PM
Wouldn't it be much easier to just do a sprite hack of Shadow Dancer? Because near as I can tell, the two are almost identical gameplay wise

Pyron
09-22-2015, 06:45 PM
My Hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tryphon
09-23-2015, 11:18 AM
Wouldn't it be much easier to just do a sprite hack of Shadow Dancer? Because near as I can tell, the two are almost identical gameplay wise

A sprite hack is not sufficient. You need to hack the levels, the characters placement, the characters AI, the music, disable the dog...

My first intention was to do that, but I'm not really sure it'd be faster or easier.

Barone
09-23-2015, 11:32 AM
My first intention was to do that, but I'm not really sure it'd be faster or easier.
It wouldn't. You did the right thing IMO. Much, much better this way.

maxi
09-23-2015, 06:36 PM
2) the remake sprites use another resolution and much more color than the original (the System16 has the same resolution than MD, but slightly more colors) so it needs much more work to convert and redesign the remake sprites for MD. If you feel inclined to do this work, I'll gladly include them in my port. I can even import the 2 sets and let the player decide.
How does this work? Does it have something to do with the sprite size limit of the MD? If so, where can I find some info about it?
I work with graphic editors and already did some sprites just for curiosity, without color limits. I imagine you're using a color palette in-game and I must use the same, reserving some colors for the backgrounds.
Just found this site (http://spritedatabase.net/game/1563) with the game's sprites, except by the backgrounds, and did a quick color reduction and change in Photoshop.
It counts now 13 colors:
10719
How should I proceed next? Also, by the sprite sheet, the remake uses 3 models at the same time, one for his legs, other for the upper body and the last for his scarf. Would the MD handle them same way or as just one?

evilevoix
09-23-2015, 08:47 PM
So nice!!! Thanks for the effort!

LinkueiBR
09-23-2015, 09:37 PM
How does this work? Does it have something to do with the sprite size limit of the MD? If so, where can I find some info about it?
I work with graphic editors and already did some sprites just for curiosity, without color limits. I imagine you're using a color palette in-game and I must use the same, reserving some colors for the backgrounds.
Just found this site (http://spritedatabase.net/game/1563) with the game's sprites, except by the backgrounds, and did a quick color reduction and change in Photoshop.
It counts now 13 colors:
10719
How should I proceed next? Also, by the sprite sheet, the remake uses 3 models at the same time, one for his legs, other for the upper body and the last for his scarf. Would the MD handle them same way or as just one?

This Shinobi remake sprite is bad and smaller if compared to the original arcade sprite!

smokemonster
09-23-2015, 09:48 PM
Very cool project, and great attention to detail tryphon. I'm excited to see how this progresses.

Vludi
09-23-2015, 11:09 PM
Just awesome, can't wait to see this game in action.

As for the "remake sprite", it doesn't fit the original style at all.

maxi
09-23-2015, 11:20 PM
This Shinobi remake sprite is bad and smaller if compared to the original arcade sprite!

Just compared the two and the remake sprite is actually one pixel higher:
10721

Also, I always found his original model silly. Looks like Batman without his mask and cape, and the head isn't even hidden like in the title screen and cover of the MS port. His Shadow Dancer and Super Shinobi cloths are a lot better, like a proper ninja.

Black_Tiger
09-23-2015, 11:28 PM
Just compared the two and the remake sprite is actually one pixel higher:
10721

Also, I always found his original model silly. Looks like Batman without his mask and cape, and the head isn't even hidden like in the title screen and cover of the MS port. His Shadow Dancer and Super Shinobi cloths are a lot better, like a proper ninja.

Just look at that screen shot and it's obvious how wrong that sprite is for this game.

Even if alternatives are optional, Shinobi isn't Shinobi without the original player sprite.

The only way alternate costumes should be done is if someone builds off of the original sprite and makes it match the game.

LinkueiBR
09-24-2015, 12:40 AM
Also, I always found his original model silly. Looks like Batman without his mask and cape, and the head isn't even hidden like in the title screen and cover of the MS port. His Shadow Dancer and Super Shinobi cloths are a lot better, like a proper ninja.

I also never understand why Joe Musashi don't use a ninja mask in the original game...
f@ck logic

Assman
09-24-2015, 01:23 AM
I never liked the original Mushashi sprites either, so I'd love to see an option for different ones, but I think the sprites from one of the Genesis games would be a better fit. Even just having a masked version of the original sprites with or without a palette similar to the other games would probably be a big step up.

It would also be cool if there was an option to have a SMS-like health bar for those more familiar with that port, especially since this game can be kind of a bastard. Just a thought.

Either way, I'm all over this. Any extra options or features would only be the cherry on top.

tryphon
09-24-2015, 03:51 AM
How does this work? Does it have something to do with the sprite size limit of the MD? If so, where can I find some info about it?
I work with graphic editors and already did some sprites just for curiosity, without color limits. I imagine you're using a color palette in-game and I must use the same, reserving some colors for the backgrounds.
Just found this site (http://spritedatabase.net/game/1563) with the game's sprites, except by the backgrounds, and did a quick color reduction and change in Photoshop.
It counts now 13 colors:
10719
How should I proceed next? Also, by the sprite sheet, the remake uses 3 models at the same time, one for his legs, other for the upper body and the last for his scarf. Would the MD handle them same way or as just one?

I still don't know exactly how many colors I'll be able to devote to Musashi Sprite. I'm afraid it'll be less than 13, more likely around 8. I need not only sprites, but also bounding box rectangles, hitboxes, damage boxes... You should wait a little to do that until I correctly implemented those features and have a complete ressources builder.

Also, I'll need also stages arts, since remake sprite doesn't fit well in arcade stages. If you don't have them, you'll have to rip them from the game (take snapshots and adjusts images pixel-perfectly, that's what I did with arcade stages).

So you must be warned that it's a very time-consuming task.




I never liked the original Mushashi sprites either, so I'd love to see an option for different ones, but I think the sprites from one of the Genesis games would be a better fit.

In fact I plan to add the Shinobi III sprite as an easter egg (if it fits well, if not I'll try Revenge of Shinobi or Shadow Dancer sprite ; that said, Shadow Dancer hero is not Joe Musashi IIRC).


It would also be cool if there was an option to have a SMS-like health bar for those more familiar with that port, especially since this game can be kind of a bastard. Just a thought.

Planned too. It'll more likely be a hybrid game inspired by SMS version. I'd like to fix some issues with the SMS game (to summarize : either did I win the 1st bonus stage and gain the flying magic, in which case I finished the game without losing a life ; or I failed at this bonus stage and couldn't get through stage 4-2, that's not fair)

But it's a long-term improvement.

Stef
09-24-2015, 09:57 AM
IMO i far prefer the originals sprites, they of course fit better to the original design ! I'm really not a fan of the reworked sprites in the different sequels or remakes...

Barone
09-24-2015, 10:38 AM
I agree with Stef.

tryphon
09-24-2015, 11:05 AM
So do I. It's absolutely out of question to get rid of original art. I just leave the door open to alternate arts you can select in the Options menu, but I won't give up original. So many memories :)

Wesker
09-24-2015, 11:17 AM
The original arcade game feels a lot more contemporay as a Mega Drive game rather than that J2ME remake with aesthetics based upon the Shinobi 2002 game for PlayStation 2, so I also prefer the conversion to keep resembling the original as much as possible.

As for the health meter, I would also add an option (an options screen would be perfect for this and other possible configurations) to play with one-hit life for those who prefer to stay closer to the arcade experience.

tryphon
09-24-2015, 11:23 AM
In fact, I intend to propose 2 different games (in the same cart) selectable at start menu :
* the arcade game (as close as possible)
* a console special, inspired by the SMS one (with a life bar, but also other differences)

maxi
09-24-2015, 11:35 AM
Also, I'll need also stages arts, since remake sprite doesn't fit well in arcade stages. If you don't have them, you'll have to rip them from the game (take snapshots and adjusts images pixel-perfectly, that's what I did with arcade stages).
So you must be warned that it's a very time-consuming task.
But it's a long-term improvement.
Yes, the idea I had is change everything (enemies, stages and objects), not just Joe. The only thing weird for me in the remake is how they changed the hostage kids for a generic kunoichi. The stages would be a bit difficult to extract because some of them are using more than one layer, and I don't know if there's an emulator for java games which let me isolate each layer. But like you said, better improve more the engine so we can see if the hitboxes would compromise the gameplay.
Also, I was just going to ask about the MS improvements. Good to see your are planning to mix the versions, because the power ups are a welcome addition.

chilled
09-24-2015, 11:40 AM
I also never understand why Joe Musashi don't use a ninja mask in the original game...
f@ck logic
it's because at the time he wasn't known at all. Just like Daft Punk at their beginnings ;)

I too don't understand this sprite replacement nonsense. We want original Shinobi on the MD, not an hybrid custom crazy morphed guy. We want gray, uncovered, genuine Musashi. And we don't need fancy easter eggs and lots of improvements: we'd like a faithful port (preferably faithful to the arcade instead of the SMS, but whatever you can achieve will do)

maxxfarras
09-24-2015, 12:33 PM
In fact, I intend to propose 2 different games (in the same cart) selectable at start menu :
* the arcade game (as close as possible)
* a console special, inspired by the SMS one (with a life bar, but also other differences)

Perfect choice IMO.

LinkueiBR
09-24-2015, 01:32 PM
In fact, I intend to propose 2 different games (in the same cart) selectable at start menu :
* the arcade game (as close as possible)
* a console special, inspired by the SMS one (with a life bar, but also other differences)

This would be perfect!!!

Mad Moham
09-24-2015, 01:48 PM
In fact, I intend to propose 2 different games (in the same cart) selectable at start menu :
* the arcade game (as close as possible)
* a console special, inspired by the SMS one (with a life bar, but also other differences)


This would be perfect!!!

I agree

SEGA.GENESIS1989
09-24-2015, 06:32 PM
In fact, I intend to propose 2 different games (in the same cart) selectable at start menu :
* the arcade game (as close as possible)
* a console special, inspired by the SMS one (with a life bar, but also other differences)

You will make alot of people EXTREMELY happy (including myself) if you pursue this idea! :D

Assman
09-24-2015, 07:49 PM
In fact I plan to add the Shinobi III sprite as an easter egg (if it fits well, if not I'll try Revenge of Shinobi or Shadow Dancer sprite ; that said, Shadow Dancer hero is not Joe Musashi IIRC).



Planned too. It'll more likely be a hybrid game inspired by SMS version. I'd like to fix some issues with the SMS game (to summarize : either did I win the 1st bonus stage and gain the flying magic, in which case I finished the game without losing a life ; or I failed at this bonus stage and couldn't get through stage 4-2, that's not fair)

But it's a long-term improvement.

This sounds really, really awesome. I salute you! :rock:

Pyron
09-24-2015, 08:26 PM
So do I. It's absolutely out of question to get rid of original art. I just leave the door open to alternate arts you can select in the Options menu, but I won't give up original. So many memories :)

Please Tryphon, keep going with original rip off of the game, the arcde version is the one that must be folow,
sms version or another ports dosent have same quality of the original, belive me.

Lest go make the dream comes true, original shinobi to md is way to go..!
If you want any help about art i can try help

Allard
09-25-2015, 11:43 AM
Holy Jesus Heisenberg Christ, is this beautiful. Sega never porting the original Shinobi to MD never made sense to me, with some of the niceties from the SMS version this could easily be the definitive edition. Keep up the good work!

LinkueiBR
09-25-2015, 12:58 PM
I can't wait to hear the music!!!
Like Midnight Resistance, it may sound even better on the MD than the Arcade version!!!

Black_Tiger
09-25-2015, 01:13 PM
Holy Jesus Heisenberg Christ, is this beautiful. Sega never porting the original Shinobi to MD never made sense to me, with some of the niceties from the SMS version this could easily be the definitive edition. Keep up the good work!

Licensing the game out to Asmik for the PC Engine might have had something to do with it. That and Sega developing Revenge of Shinobi so early on.

SEGA.GENESIS1989
09-25-2015, 07:08 PM
Holy Jesus Heisenberg Christ, is this beautiful. Sega never porting the original Shinobi to MD never made sense to me, with some of the niceties from the SMS version this could easily be the definitive edition. Keep up the good work!


Licensing the game out to Asmik for the PC Engine might have had something to do with it. That and Sega developing Revenge of Shinobi so early on.

I've always worked on the presumption that SEGA figured that SEGA Genesis owners could always play the Master System version of Shinobi via the "Power Base Converter" (anyone remember what the release date was for the peripheral? There's no info online :(). After all, Master System games were being sold along side SEGA Genesis games (at least for a short period of time).

OverDrone
09-25-2015, 07:18 PM
Classic '87 Shinobi sprite or bust. That Samurai Shodown looking thing is not Shinobi.

And well done to Tryphon for this initiative, exciting since the original was one of my favourite machines back in the arcade. The graphics, music, gameplay - all awesome. This and Black Tiger were my go-to action games at the time.

Speaking of which, Black Tiger - along with a port of Rastan - are the MD ports I'd most like to see appear, mostly because I think the machine is made for pretty much nigh-on perfect ports in those cases.

Pyron
09-25-2015, 07:19 PM
Tryphon,

I dont know if this help you, but take this joe musashi sprites and reduced size a litle bit and otimazed the pallete to MD handle it.
http://i.imgur.com/hcOkvHX.png

Pyron
09-25-2015, 07:41 PM
Tryphon,

I dont know if this help you, but take this joe musashi sprites and reduced size a litle bit and otimazed the pallete to MD handle it.
http://i.imgur.com/hcOkvHX.png

Or a more SMS style more darkewr with less colors count

http://i.imgur.com/B5GNLLz.png

Pyron
09-25-2015, 07:45 PM
A closer look

http://i.imgur.com/e7VSy2O.png

14 colors on musashi sprite + 1 to transparency = 15 colors

LinkueiBR
09-25-2015, 11:43 PM
I think it's not necessary reduce the sprite size since the Arcade game run in the same resolution of MD (320x224).
Reduce the colors of Shinobi sprite by other hand is necessary to fit with all the objects and text of the screen.

Barone
09-26-2015, 01:14 AM
@Tryphon
Here's my suggestion for your palette setup:

Palette #0
color #0 as the main background color (i'm assuming you have full screen, so it's not a problem to have colored borders because they won't be visible).
colors #1-9 for far background tiles (they don't seem to be all that colorful in the original arcade game so I wouldn't spend more than on them).
colors #10-15 for fireball tones. You can also reuse some of them for the electric effects and the windows in some of the buildings in the far background.

Palette #1
colors #1-15 for "middle" background/foreground/platform tiles.

Palette #2
colors #1-15 for enemies whose colors differ a lot from the main character and for most of the projectiles. During boss fights you can dedicate this palette only for the boss.

Palette #3
colors #1-10 for the main character and the HUD.
colors #11-12 for two shades of a same color which can be used on enemies similar to the main character.*
colors #13-15 for another three shades of a same color which can be used on enemies similar to the main character.*

*Since the main character has gray-ish tones, you can recombine some of those shades with "neighbor" colors (brown-ish/purple-ish/blue-ish/etc variations of those gray tones).

Another useful trick is to have some of the enemies using a a sub-set of the main characters skin shades. Example: main character uses colors#1-4 for skin, starting from the darkest one. Then some enemies with darker skin colors can use color#1-3 while the ones with brighter skin can use color#2-4.

Black_Tiger
09-26-2015, 01:54 AM
This is how I'd re-color the player sprite, without taking into consideration palette sharing yet. It has all the shades of the arcade version:


http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/joerccomp1.png




Here's a single attempt at converting everything to 9-bit color, with an intent to keep individual aspects uniquely colored, to avoid sprites from sharing background colors.


http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/shinobistage1.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/shinobistage1rc1.png



If I was seriously working on this (or had more time), I'd experiment more (particularly re-balancing the grass* and bad guy) before looking at how to allocate colors with 4 palettes.



*This quick test already looks better:

http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ssaltgrass1.png


Seriously need to sleep now. :p

tryphon
09-26-2015, 03:53 AM
Speaking of which, Black Tiger - along with a port of Rastan - are the MD ports I'd most like to see appear, mostly because I think the machine is made for pretty much nigh-on perfect ports in those cases.

Believe it or not, on my already too long list of projects that I will ever make or not, Black Tiger is pretty high, and Rastan is present but lower. To be honest, Black Tiger was pretty high, but Maldita Castilla is taking its place :)

There are some very interesting posts here I'll answer little by little, but I want to thank everyone! :)

maxxfarras
09-26-2015, 04:26 AM
Guys, please listen this advice as a general suggestion:

from my experience by working with megadrive palette and many trial and error tests for port MD graphics (not only for SSF2) I learned that the following is absolutely true:

the best aproach for optimize the use of a 16 color subpalette is by considering all the objects that will use such subpalette in a same screen at same time and then reduce colors slowly. (For example consider mushashi, bullets, hostages hud at same time and then reduce to 16 colors). Maybe this can sound strange but it works.

So, to reserve colors and asign them to each isolated colorful object from the begining will not work well because you will ride out of colors very fast!
Of course some times is necesary to reserve colors, but you must avoid this aproach always when possible and try always to share colors from the beggining with all objects for better results.

That said, I did not study yet well the Barone proposal for opinate, but lMO the original tryphon propose for palette asignation is good because let the posibility of exchange the original musashi sprite for another one as an easter egg. Also asignate only one 16 color subpalette for the backgrounds should be enough in many or all cases for this game. (if not, always you could use others of the subpaletes asignated for sprites for help).

Edit: In a second thought, Im not sure if 16 colors could be enough for the backgrounds, need to do some tests first :P

Pyron
09-26-2015, 09:54 AM
Guys, please listen this advice as a general suggestion:

from my experience by working with megadrive palette and many trial and error tests for port MD graphics (not only for SSF2) I learned that the following is absolutely true:

the best aproach for optimize the use of a 16 color subpalette is by considering all the objects that will use such subpalette in a same screen at same time and then reduce colors slowly. (For example consider mushashi, bullets, hostages hud at same time and then reduce to 16 colors). Maybe this can sound strange but it works.

So, to reserve colors and asign them to each isolated colorful object from the begining will not work well because you will ride out of colors very fast!
Of course some times is necesary to reserve colors, but you must avoid this aproach always when possible and try always to share colors from the beggining with all objects for better results.

That said, I did not study yet well the Barone proposal for opinate, but lMO the original tryphon propose for palette asignation is good because let the posibility of exchange the original musashi sprite for another one as an easter egg. Also asignate only one 16 color subpalette for the backgrounds should be enough in many or all cases for this game. (if not, always you could use others of the subpaletes asignated for sprites for help).

Edit: In a second thought, Im not sure if 16 colors could be enough for the backgrounds, need to do some tests first :P

Yeah, in my example i used 14 colors to musashi, add 1 red tone and you complete what you need to make blood, UI, fire effect. You van use this pallete for the hostages and some enemys.

Uses a second pallete to the enemys Of that stage, its Easy because shinoby dosent uses much enemy variation per stage.

And se can use the 2 last palletes to make the background

maxxfarras
09-26-2015, 04:31 PM
Pyron,

maybe Im wrong and sorry if I do, but from your pic looks like you are reserving colors for shinobi beforehand (at least that you optimized colors beforehand for all the objects and then you are just showing the shinobi sprite, do you did so?).

Anyway, musashi sprite lost a shade of gray in your version, but not sure if that so because an artistic choice or because you are indeed reserving colors beforehand. In this case I prefer the black tiger version because it keeps all shades.

My point is that you could keep all original shades for all objects including musashi by using this aproach: if you consider the apropiate
objects togheter and then you optimize the palette of color.

I have no time yet for do tests with megadrive version, but for try to make my point clear, let me show you this test pic that I did for the sega master system version years ago. Of course colors are not acurate, because I was obligated to use only one 16 color subpalette for all enemies. Sega master system hardware only let you use one 16 color subpalette for sprites and you only dispose of 64 colors for choose.

Also musashi look greenish because master system dont have enough grey tones in their master palette, etc.

That said, you will notice that almost not shades of colors was lost in this master system version pic sample:

http://s23.postimg.org/9w406eguj/shinobi_demas_stages.png (http://postimage.org/)


If you use this aproach for megadrive and split the subpalettes smartly at same time (something in the lines that Barone or tryphon are proposing)
then you you could get very close graphics for megadrive version with no lost shades.

BladeJunker
09-26-2015, 05:53 PM
Believe it or not, on my already too long list of projects that I will ever make or not, Black Tiger is pretty high, and Rastan is present but lower. To be honest, Black Tiger was pretty high, but Maldita Castilla is taking its place :)

Bless you on Black Tiger, so many bad ports that made me just go back to the arcade or MAME these days, that would be awesome. :D I'd like Rastan too, last time I talked about it I thought mashing the arcade and NES versions together would be neat. Maldita Castilla is a great choice, I think that will port well. :)

Wesker
09-26-2015, 07:40 PM
I'd like Rastan too, last time I talked about it I thought mashing the arcade and NES versions together would be neat.

Rastan for the NES?

BladeJunker
09-26-2015, 08:11 PM
Rastan for the NES?

Ha ha ha lol, whoops, I was rushing to join my lunch party at the time. :lol: I misread that in my haste, I was actually thinking of Rygar for some reason. But yeah Rastan would be great on the MD, much like Shinobi it got lost in the 8 to 16-bit porting time period. There are lots of arcade titles that would have been better on the consoles that came after the consoles they were ported to in a lot of cases.

Actually Rastan on NES could be a fun project for somebody somewhere. :)

Barone
09-26-2015, 08:20 PM
Rygar is one I'd love to see on the MD. There's a X68000 version but we, regular folks, we couldn't get such greatness at home.

cabear
09-27-2015, 03:22 AM
a MD Rygar as close to arcade perfect would be amazing. i would love to see more arcade faithful ports to the genesis, it's the perfect system to do it.

Bibin
09-27-2015, 04:30 AM
I want Fantasy Zone arcade perfect! The hardware can definitely come close, even if sprites may flicker or some animation is reduced. Super Fantasy Zone is alright, but I want the real deal!

LinkueiBR
09-27-2015, 11:54 AM
OFF: 2 Arcade games that use the same engine of Shinobi and i really like to see in the GENESIS are ESWAT and Shadow Dancer

Wesker
09-27-2015, 12:37 PM
Seems like this thread has become a wishlist, so I will express my probably-never-to-be-fulfilled-wishes too.

I have to recognize that I don't have particular arcade games that I would like to see on the Mega Drive, although I commend huge efforts like the one being done here, but certain SNES games, one of them being Battletoads in Battlemaniacs which would be an awesome addition to the Mega Drive (that way it would have a Battletoads game with true 16-bit graphics rather than simple NES conversions) and was probably considered by Virgin at a certain point when they had the license to do the Master System version, and other being Super Turrican 2 to have the complete Turrican series on the Mega Drive, as I consider Super Turrican an alternative version of Mega Turrican/Turrican 3. Some Konami games like Sparkster, so it would join with the Mega Drive Rocket Knight Adventures games on the same platform, and any Ganbare Goemon game would be amazing too.

Now, on the Sega Saturn it's a different thing. That's the system where I would love to see certain arcade games converted in pixel perfect or quasi-pixel perfect form, mostly beat 'em ups and mostly Capcom games like Cadillacs and Dinosaurs, The Punisher and Alien vs Predator, and then some others like Golden Axe: The Revenge of Death Adder, Battletoads Arcade and some of the Konami beat 'em ups. I would prefer these developments to take place in a system like the Sega Saturn rather than one like the Mega Drive for obvious technical reasons, the Mega Drive version of The Punisher being an example of that and even if it's a mediocre conversion which could have turned out much better.

tryphon
09-27-2015, 04:12 PM
Some answers (If I ignored your post and you want an answer, don't hesitate to repost) :

@ maxfarras : you're totally true in your way of proceeding, and that's also how I'll proceed. I noted some ideas :

* find pairs of ennemies that can't be on screen at the same time so they can use same color indexes
* since all sprites are split in smaller ones, try to make all the head sprites use the same palette (or most of them) which is not the same as the one for the rest of the bodies
* let green and red ninjas use same indexes with 2 different palettes (but not blue).
* use dithering when reducing colors

@ pyron : I like your work, especially the "SMS" one that shows that we can still have something nice with a lower color count. You may gain some more colors with removing one shade of yellow and one shade of skin

@ barone : for the moment, all the tests I've done on backgrounds show that using 15 colors for both planes should be acceptable (I tried 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, maybe not the most colorful. I'll have a look on stages 3-1 and 4-1 that are much more colorful), that's why I tried to maximize the colours I could use for ennemies. Stef once said that the VDP designers could have made it in such a way that the 4 palettes for sprites wouldn't be the same as the 4 palettes for planes, and I can't understand why noone thought of it before :)

@ all : I opened this topic for Shinobi, let's stay on this please :) You're free to open another one for what you'll like to see. One day or another I'll post the list of the projects I'd like to make (and there's just too much of them, but neither Rygar nor Fantasy Zone nor Battle Toads).

Wesker
09-27-2015, 04:23 PM
Yup, all those messages (including mine of course) should be moved to a different "wishlist" thread and leave this one concerning the Shinobi conversion only.

Barone
09-27-2015, 05:41 PM
@ barone : for the moment, all the tests I've done on backgrounds show that using 15 colors for both planes should be acceptable (I tried 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, maybe not the most colorful. I'll have a look on stages 3-1 and 4-1 that are much more colorful), that's why I tried to maximize the colours I could use for ennemies. Stef once said that the VDP designers could have made it in such a way that the 4 palettes for sprites wouldn't be the same as the 4 palettes for planes, and I can't understand why noone thought of it before :)
Thanks for the reply.

Maybe it's more of a personal thing (and my main intention was to get this discussion ignited since you said you're still thinking about how to do it) since I see that others also suggested to use just one palette for the background but I tend to think that just one palette for the background sucks.
I mean, I see this as a problem on many Mega Drive games and on most of the arcade ports: sprites look good but the backgrounds look bad, drained out. And when you go check the palettes you'll usually find this 1+3 setup which usually results in a unbalanced picture IMO.

OTOH, for what I've seen, the games with best use of color on the system are the ones where characters were designed to be "economic" in terms of number of colors they required or the arcade ports where the characters sprites have been very slightly reduced in terms of shadings and the palettes were split in a clever way.

In other words, I prefer games where both characters and backgrounds are close to the arcade instead of arcade-perfect looking characters over drained out backgrounds.


Shinobi isn't very colorful neither are the characters shadings very rich nor are the tiles super detailed, but you may run into some shit thanks to it originally relying on very soft/bright colors and pastel tones which can't really be reproduced with the MD's palette.

In some cases it makes the games actually look better on the MD IMO, like Shinobi's first stage probably will.
But for the later parts of the game, like one stage which has mountains and a cyan-ish clor for the sky, the final result of the conversion may look a bit odd if you try to match all arcade colors and how they repeated some of them on the background and foreground. I'd use a bit brighter color on the sky than on the floor in that stage, for an example; those mountains also use some gray-ish tones which don't have a proper equivalent on the MD's palette IMO, etc.

IDK, I'll probably go out on a limb and keep defending until I die the idea that more than 16 colors for the background would be great, but I really believe it would give you more room for a conversion which would look at least as good as the original arcade version (which has some pitfalls IMO).

tryphon
09-27-2015, 06:22 PM
Your point is interesting. I'll do several experiments when I'll be at finalizing graphics (still a long time), and I intend to use those coloured stages (I think you're refering to 3-1, 4-1, maybe 5-1). That said some of the stages do use around 16 colors (2-2 for example).

Pyron
09-27-2015, 06:48 PM
@maxfarras and @Tryphon thanks alot for the feedback, yes i tried save some shades to complete the basic and most used objcets in the game,
because its help Tryphon alot in the future.

Now i tried again with more carefull and wise, i keep almost all detail of the musashi using the same color count look
http://i.imgur.com/FLlelfG.png

Musashi = 14 colors
Free Slot = to red shade to blood / ui
Total = 15 Colors

I also changed the blue detail e put a gold look in details, is more beautiful than the arcade and we can use to several enemys and effects.
The 2 blue tones also can be used in blue ninja in the future (third shade can be done by dither).

Now look to the complete musashi move set using (14 colors)
http://i.imgur.com/tEb8l42.png

BladeJunker
09-27-2015, 06:54 PM
@tryphon: Wishlist creep, it happens, can we blame Black Tiger, you, me, it kinds of escalates while we wait patiently for Shinobi. :lol:

@Barone: I agree that one palette for the background can look pretty bad usually however Shinobi backgrounds are fairly homogeneous, very man-made and urban mostly. What will drain the color out of the background is arcade color accuracy since the color ramps are so isolated and individual from each other that they don't share much if any common colors, so if the hue isn't bent to be more global the color ramps have to be reduced to conform to the original colors hues to fit into 1 palette. So Arcade Accurate VS. Global Palettization.

What I'm finding with GEN/MD graphics is that 'everything' has to be economical in terms of color but I can see that many people favor one element over another so they dump a ton of color demand onto one palette. Mostly with the sprites people definitely want Musashi accurate so there's a push for his colors to be reserved but it probably won't work, I thought maxxfarras's take on the sprites looked like a good start in being "globalized" except for one 'invisible' color on Musashi.

I agree about the pastel aspect of the arcade being prominent in the arcade version which won't translate to GEN/MD, you can pursuit pastels on the console but you can't be fussy on the color of anything lol. I think the increased contrast will help like you say, after all the stock video output is Composite or RF.
My concerns are with the depth contrast of the background, I'm a little concerned that a single background palette could make all the graphics share one level of contrast and diminish the depth perception as in higher contrast foreground and lower contrast background to make the sprites pop and visually telegraph what is in front of what.

Pyron
09-27-2015, 07:47 PM
@maxfarras and @Tryphon thanks alot for the feedback, yes i tried save some shades to complete the basic and most used objcets in the game,
because its help Tryphon alot in the future.

Now i tried again with more carefull and wise, i keep almost all detail of the musashi using the same color count look
http://i.imgur.com/FLlelfG.png

Musashi = 14 colors
Free Slot = to red shade to blood / ui
Total = 15 Colors

I also changed the blue detail e put a gold look in details, is more beautiful than the arcade and we can use to several enemys and effects.
The 2 blue tones also can be used in blue ninja in the future (third shade can be done by dither).

Now look to the complete musashi move set using (14 colors)
http://i.imgur.com/tEb8l42.png

Plus stage 1 with 18 colors, resting slot left to extra details for extra objects and shading for the enemys
http://i.imgur.com/4ibujCu.png

Barone
09-28-2015, 03:20 AM
My concerns are with the depth contrast of the background, I'm a little concerned that a single background palette could make all the graphics share one level of contrast and diminish the depth perception as in higher contrast foreground and lower contrast background to make the sprites pop and visually telegraph what is in front of what.
I've rep'ed you for the details you brought up with this post but this part is especially great IMO.

This was the reason why I made an alternate version of Joe & Mac's color enhancement patch (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?28100-Gabriel-Pyron-s-Color-Hacks!!!-(Golden-Axe-Street-Fighter-II-Final-Fight-CD-etc)&p=700084&viewfull=1#post700084) several months ago.

Very few Mega Drive games even seem to take that aspect into account and the few arcade games which had it back in the days would actually lost it when ported to the MD; in part thanks to the 1-3 palette split I mentioned before.

This is one of the aspects where I consider Ristar technically superior to Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3, Knuckles. SOJ really got the depth contrast concept right in that game. And IMO it's one of the reasons why Sonic CD feels so visually cluttered: it has lots of background tiles but pretty much no depth contrast applied to them.

Other than Ristar, I would cite Quackshot, World of Illusion (though the palette usage is nowhere near as polished as in Quackshot and some of the tiles look rough on the edges), Monster World IV, Rocket Knight Adventures (the industrial stage is a classic example IMO; one of the aspects which was downgraded on Sparkster), X-Men 2: Clone Wars, Ranger-X (which is mind-blowing in terms of lighting effects usage in some of its levels), Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master as good examples of depth contrast usage on the MD.

Alianger
09-28-2015, 12:08 PM
I'd have to disagree with brightening the shades if you're going to keep the pure black darkest shade, which already stuck out a lot in the original arcade game.

Very excited for this project though!

BladeJunker
09-28-2015, 07:09 PM
I've rep'ed you for the details you brought up with this post but this part is especially great IMO.

This was the reason why I made an alternate version of Joe & Mac's color enhancement patch (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?28100-Gabriel-Pyron-s-Color-Hacks!!!-(Golden-Axe-Street-Fighter-II-Final-Fight-CD-etc)&p=700084&viewfull=1#post700084) several months ago.

Very few Mega Drive games even seem to take that aspect into account and the few arcade games which had it back in the days would actually lost it when ported to the MD; in part thanks to the 1-3 palette split I mentioned before.

This is one of the aspects where I consider Ristar technically superior to Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3, Knuckles. SOJ really got the depth contrast concept right in that game. And IMO it's one of the reasons why Sonic CD feels so visually cluttered: it has lots of background tiles but pretty much no depth contrast applied to them.

Other than Ristar, I would cite Quackshot, World of Illusion (though the palette usage is nowhere near as polished as in Quackshot and some of the tiles look rough on the edges), Monster World IV, Rocket Knight Adventures (the industrial stage is a classic example IMO; one of the aspects which was downgraded on Sparkster), X-Men 2: Clone Wars, Ranger-X (which is mind-blowing in terms of lighting effects usage in some of its levels), Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master as good examples of depth contrast usage on the MD.

Thanks for the rep, just happy to offer as much useful feedback as I can muster. Been nice getting to know how this platform ticks. :)

Nice patch btw, didn't know Joe & Mac had such hard contrast on GEN/MD, very dark in weird places. It is often overlooked, early arcade games struggled with it a lot despite having hardware far superior to the home consoles of the time, growing pains I guess. What is great about 'depth contrast' is it only takes 'care' rather than anything technologically difficult since its something you can apply to any and all graphics. I tend to look at original Game Boy graphics as a good example, sure only 4 shades but most of the developers excelled at good 'depth contrast', probably had to in order to compensate for the screen ghosting lol.

Ristar is a great example, despite all that ornate detail nothing ever gets visually confusing. Yeah Sonic CD is a mess to my eyes, I find it hard to look at compared to the GEN/MD Sonic titles, it makes me feel uneasy. :daze: All great examples you've cited, some developers that really knew the platform well. Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master is one of my favorite examples of GEN/MD graphics, absolutely nothing I would change about those exquisite graphics, perfect. :D

MathUser
09-29-2015, 03:48 PM
Looks great. Keep up the great work!

maxxfarras
09-30-2015, 02:37 AM
Some answers (If I ignored your post and you want an answer, don't hesitate to repost) :

@ maxfarras : you're totally true in your way of proceeding, and that's also how I'll proceed. I noted some ideas :

* find pairs of ennemies that can't be on screen at the same time so they can use same color indexes
* since all sprites are split in smaller ones, try to make all the head sprites use the same palette (or most of them) which is not the same as the one for the rest of the bodies
* let green and red ninjas use same indexes with 2 different palettes (but not blue).
* use dithering when reducing colors
...
.

tryphon,
I agree except for the use of dithering. I avoid it because is personal taste but there are other more reasons:

IMO if you recycle properly the colors, then dithering is not necesary except for very specific areas like gradients shadings, like for example sky. Other reason because I avoid it is beause modify the original drawing of graphics involves more work.

I think that dithering is completely avoidable using the right aproach (that is, recycling colors).



Pyron:

Your pics look great now! However, The only problem that I see is that your pic is not using the MD palette. IMO, you could save time and effort if you first convert to megadrive palette and then proceed to decrease colors. In other case you will not be be sure which will be the final results when you posterize your pic.

I suggest use paint shop pro editor, is great for this kind of retro stuff. Pyron, I can send you a PM with more details about the tools that I use if you wish for exchange of ideas.

At least for me, the more efficient aproach is to work in this order:


1. Rip all the backgrounds and characters which appear in a given level.
(including absolutely all atacks, signs etc, not forget nothing)

2. Split the characters and backgrounds in four diferents sheets for proceed to optimize the use of each color subpalette.

2. Adjust bright/contrast and then posterize with 8 steps for convert the graphics to megadrive palette. If it not looks goodthen try again with diferent contrast brightnes level.

3. If graphics look good posterized with megadrive palette, then proceed to slowly decrease colors using paint shop pro's "edit palette" option and then replace the similar colors by a same color in the little color squares that appear in the edit window using the dropper tool. Continue so, and then stop when you decrease the palette to 16/15 colors.


By the way, after of some testing , I agree totally with Barone: one 16 color subpalette could be not enough for backgrounds in some levels for make it acurate, for example level 1-1. But as Barone said, the plane B background is not so colorful. so IMO you could share some palette asigned for the sprites with plane B. Indeed something like 2.5 subpaletes for sprites and 1.5 for backgrounds (letting posible overlapp use of subpaletes for sprites and backgrounds) could it be enough. But anyway this is something in the same lines that Barone proposed.

Pyron
09-30-2015, 10:40 PM
Pyron:

Your pics look great now! However, The only problem that I see is that your pic is not using the MD palette. IMO, you could save time and effort if you first convert to megadrive palette and then proceed to decrease colors. In other case you will not be be sure which will be the final results when you posterize your pic.

I formated my PC to installs the Windows 10 and lsot some tools, but i get mega drive pallete to photoshop to do a fast edit, cuz that i'm sure using MD pallete but i was worng =/
Anyway if this editor you said is bether i want take a look, if it make my life easier i wanna it =D

tryphon
10-01-2015, 03:54 AM
tryphon,
I agree except for the use of dithering. I avoid it because is personal taste but there are other more reasons:

IMO if you recycle properly the colors, then dithering is not necesary except for very specific areas like gradients shadings, like for example sky. Other reason because I avoid it is beause modify the original drawing of graphics involves more work.

I think that dithering is completely avoidable using the right aproach (that is, recycling colors).


I hope too I'll be able to avoid completely dithering, as I don't like it either.


By the way, after of some testing , I agree totally with Barone: one 16 color subpalette could be not enough for backgrounds in some levels for make it acurate, for example level 1-1. But as Barone said, the plane B background is not so colorful. so IMO you could share some palette asigned for the sprites with plane B. Indeed something like 2.5 subpaletes for sprites and 1.5 for backgrounds (letting posible overlapp use of subpaletes for sprites and backgrounds) could it be enough. But anyway this is something in the same lines that Barone proposed.

I had good results in stage 1-1 using 19 colors (15 for plane A, 4 for plane B) and I think a little less can be achieved. That said, if sprites can be decent and leave some colors for background, then that'll be the way. So it'll be 2.75 palettes for sprites (and HUD) and 1.25 for backgrounds.

Though, sharing colors between sprites and backgrounds is dangerous (if this is what you proposed, I'm not exactly sure).

If there are gradients (but I don't remember so), I could try an HINT color swap.

For now, I'm far from designing definitive sprites. I'm struggling with collisions boxes :)

philip
10-02-2015, 05:07 PM
Very nice project ! I like to play this arcade game. :D

Gentlegamer
10-02-2015, 05:32 PM
Amazing work!

maxxfarras
10-03-2015, 05:04 PM
For now, I'm far from designing definitive sprites. I'm struggling with collisions boxes :)

That is great tryphon!

tryphon, I understand that there still a long way for that you begin to work with graphics and of course to code the game is the more important and difficult task but many of us are very excited about your project and I was very curious how so well could work only one 16 color palette for background, so I could not resist the temptation to do a serious try.

Of course the term "acceptable" is subjective but for the following two levels one 16 color palette looks acceptable (at least for me). At least can be useful as reference (pics only use 16 colors of MD palette):

http://s11.postimg.org/qapc9epib/shinobitest3.png (http://postimage.org/)

http://s28.postimg.org/s8gzel8cd/shinobi_4_1_otro4.png (http://postimage.org/)

I will do some tests with the more colourful backgrounds stages for check how so well work one 16 colour palette and I will post here later if you agree.


Though, sharing colors between sprites and backgrounds is dangerous (if this is what you proposed, I'm not exactly sure).

Yes, I considered could be done in certain spots. Do you say that is dangerous because sprites could blend with the background and also you could need to rework colors of sprites for each stage?

Edit: I replaced the second pic for other one with more brighteness, I think it look more acurate.

tryphon
10-04-2015, 03:59 AM
I was thinking about blending.

Another constraint is that one given sprite must use the same color indices if it appears in several stages (unless I duplicate the data). That said, indices can refer to slighly different colors (musashi in MD Shadow Dancer isn't always exactly the same color and nobody notices - at least not me before I studied the game).

maxxfarras
10-04-2015, 04:55 AM
I was thinking about blending.

Another constraint is that one given sprite must use the same color indices if it appears in several stages (unless I duplicate the data). That said, indices can refer to slighly different colors (musashi in MD Shadow Dancer isn't always exactly the same color and nobody notices - at least not me before I studied the game).

Interesting. Indeed I never noticed that before.
By the way, do you dissasembled some shadow dancer code and you are adapting such code for help to create the engine to shinobi arcade port?

Gentlegamer
10-04-2015, 06:20 AM
I was thinking about blending.

Another constraint is that one given sprite must use the same color indices if it appears in several stages (unless I duplicate the data). That said, indices can refer to slighly different colors (musashi in MD Shadow Dancer isn't always exactly the same color and nobody notices - at least not me before I studied the game).

Whoa! Can you show examples?

Pyron
10-04-2015, 07:33 AM
@maxfarras this is my results using your hints in paint shop pro, look good.
now i need help with manual refinement

http://i.imgur.com/bDKaOVJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/PiLc1Lv.png

Nightwolf
10-06-2015, 09:46 PM
So great :_)

BladeJunker
10-08-2015, 07:29 PM
http://s11.postimg.org/qapc9epib/shinobitest3.png (http://postimage.org/)

http://s28.postimg.org/s8gzel8cd/shinobi_4_1_otro4.png (http://postimage.org/)

That's looking really great, the various layers of depth are still visible and it looks still very colorful. The second background looks less like the arcade but you did an amazing job spreading only 16 colors over 3-4 distinct color regions.

The second shot is a little bright compared to the original but that could be a good thing, if it is a desert like stage the original background looks too overcast or smoky for such a bright place unless its dusk or dawn.

tryphon
10-09-2015, 04:35 AM
I like too the idea of background being a little bright. PCE version was much too dark IMO.

Some infos : I implemented collisions and hitboxes, and reworked the ressources generator to make it easier to add new ennemies.

For the 2 weeks to come, the project will be in pause because of the imminent release of the English translation of Phantasy Star: Generation 2, the remake of Phantasy Star 2 on PS2. Translators have finished their work and there are minor bugs for me to fix. There's also an update to the translation of Phantasy Star: Generation 1 which uses the same tools I made and which need attention.

Then I'll switch back to Shinobi. Planned improvements are rewriting and cleaning of Ennemies manager and Sprites manager. It shouldn't be spectacular (only one stage and one type of ennemy, even if this time there will be more of them and you can interact with them), but then I'll add projectiles, and new ennemies. It should really feel like a Shinobi at this moment :)

Thanks for your attention :)

tomaitheous
10-09-2015, 03:26 PM
For the 2 weeks to come, the project will be in pause because of the imminent release of the English translation of Phantasy Star: Generation 2, the remake of Phantasy Star 2 on PS2. Translators have finished their work and there are minor bugs for me to fix. There's also an update to the translation of Phantasy Star: Generation 1 which uses the same tools I made and which need attention.


F-ing awesome! I've been waiting for ages (no pun intended) for an English translation of PSII for PS2.



Anyway, I've been following this thread for a bit. I hope you see this Shinobi project through. It really is a shame this was never brought to their 16bit home system. I'm curious.. are looking at the disassembly and/or tracing through the original arcade code?

tryphon
10-09-2015, 04:05 PM
Nope. I'd had liked, but I didn't find documentation on System16.

tomaitheous
10-09-2015, 04:43 PM
Nope. I'd had liked, but I didn't find documentation on System16.

I mean more for the main character, enemy, and game logic. I reassembled the arcade rom to boot on the Genesis, so that I could look at the game code (years ago). I don't know of that approach helps you or not. I read of some other people making homebrew of their favorite games, and looked at the code game to copy/emulate the gameplay mechanics and such.

tryphon
10-09-2015, 05:02 PM
Game logic is quite classic. What I'd like to know is how are collisions handled ? Boxes ? Pixel perfect ? If boxes, how many pe sprite ? How are they designed (almost exact fit or too small) ?

tomaitheous
10-09-2015, 10:15 PM
Game logic is quite classic. What I'd like to know is how are collisions handled ? Boxes ? Pixel perfect ? If boxes, how many pe sprite ? How are they designed (almost exact fit or too small) ?

So what if you took the arcade assemble rom, running on the Genesis, and interpreted the sprite table for some quick boxes to show up on screen? I didn't research a whole lot into the arcade hardware, but I'm pretty sure the SAT is manually written to and probably during vblank. You only need to write a hook for the routine that copies it to arcade VDP ram - or whatever, and just parse/interpret that to show something on screen (not even back ground data/graphic). Hook the control code with your own and you'll be able to play.. something. At that point you can start trapping and stepping through code to see what the game is doing. Maybe even identify tables of data/etc and export (rip) it. You'll also need to setup a hook in the vblank interrupt vector code, so the Genesis VDP can trigger it (the games Vblank routine).

tryphon
10-10-2015, 12:33 AM
Of course it'd help. But how do you build the ROM ?

The MAME archive is made of 18 small files with cryptic names :)

tomaitheous
10-10-2015, 01:07 AM
I'm looking at what I have now, and it looks like I did this 5 years ago. So I don't remember all the details. But it appears that I used a bootleg version of the arcade romset (again, not sure why. I think because of the copy protection mechanism of the system16 software). I do remember looking at mame source code, with shows which rom file names that get attached to emulation cores (68k, vdp, z80, etc). I also did this for another arcade project (that got much further along). From there, I just made/combined a rom that housed all the 68k code/data (those roms, in their specific order that mame source code had showed). The other roms should be graphic data for the arcade VDP and roms for the z80.

Gentlegamer
10-10-2015, 01:13 AM
I feel smarter just reading this thread.

maxxfarras
10-11-2015, 04:28 AM
I like too the idea of background being a little bright. PCE version was much too dark IMO.

Some infos : I implemented collisions and hitboxes, and reworked the ressources generator to make it easier to add new ennemies.

For the 2 weeks to come, the project will be in pause because of the imminent release of the English translation of Phantasy Star: Generation 2, the remake of Phantasy Star 2 on PS2. Translators have finished their work and there are minor bugs for me to fix. There's also an update to the translation of Phantasy Star: Generation 1 which uses the same tools I made and which need attention.

Then I'll switch back to Shinobi. Planned improvements are rewriting and cleaning of Ennemies manager and Sprites manager. It shouldn't be spectacular (only one stage and one type of ennemy, even if this time there will be more of them and you can interact with them), but then I'll add projectiles, and new ennemies. It should really feel like a Shinobi at this moment :)

Thanks for your attention :)

That are indeed some great news! And I had no idea that this games had /has been translated and that you are one of the guys behind this.
I remember I was very frustrated back on time because we not got a english version of this games. Thanks a lot for this translation work!

cabear
11-24-2015, 09:41 PM
Any updates with this awesome project?

Scorpion Illuminati
11-24-2015, 10:12 PM
Wouldn't it be much easier to just do a sprite hack of Shadow Dancer? Because near as I can tell, the two are almost identical gameplay wise
It would be easier, but then it wouldn't be a true port. Some may prefer the original gameplay, which might be easier to do if it was done from scratch based on the observed arcade code.

Signed,

Scorpion Illuminati

tryphon
11-25-2015, 02:42 AM
I'm still finalizing the Phantasy Star Generation updates : there was a nasty bug with Phantasy Star Generation 2 that took me some time to fix, and I was contacted in the meantime to make a more polished version of the English translation of Generation 1.

They are almost finished : I'm just waiting the final script for both to build and distribute the final version (I'll make a post on this board to announce them since they can interest SEGA fans).

While waiting I'm back to Shinobi. I'm coding a better ressource editor to make consistent collision boxes (I didn't realize how many constraints there are between them)

IrishNinja
11-25-2015, 07:09 PM
Just seeing this now, but - hype! video in the OP looks dope, glad you're not cutting corners on it either.

tryphon
12-16-2015, 01:45 PM
I'm currently designing states machines for some ennemies, and I have a question for gamers : I was almost sure that mohawkz/punks in the 1st level could stop shurikens by kicking them. I tried on MAME, at different difficulty level, but wasn't able to see it.

Was I mistaken ? Or does it occur in some strange situation ?

cabear
12-16-2015, 02:54 PM
I tried it on my ouya running mame set .139, i couldn't replicate the punks kicking shurikens out of the air.

tryphon
12-17-2015, 06:27 AM
Thanks! I must've dreamt of it :)

(hey, I was 11 years old when playing Shinobi :D )

LinkueiBR
12-17-2015, 01:34 PM
I'm currently designing states machines for some ennemies, and I have a question for gamers : I was almost sure that mohawkz/punks in the 1st level could stop shurikens by kicking them. I tried on MAME, at different difficulty level, but wasn't able to see it.

Was I mistaken ? Or does it occur in some strange situation ?

I don't remember of see this, but yeah, could exist. We need test all the versions and revisions of the Shinobi Arcade.

tryphon
12-17-2015, 01:55 PM
I remember the one I played when I was young had something like (c) BETA fwiw.

cabear
12-17-2015, 02:13 PM
I tried again with another version of shinobi, i couldn't get the punks to even kick until i was right next to them, and even then the kick or sword animation would kill them before they could do their low kick. that'd be cool if you implemented that though, it'd be a neat feature and add a little danger to the punks!

tryphon
12-17-2015, 02:17 PM
It's even worse than that : it seems that when they kick you, if you don't move, they miss you :)

Green/Red Ninjas are like that too : if you stay crouched in the opposite direction, they miss you and jump backwrds. And since the game engine allow them to appear continuously, you can stay crouched and see tenths of nnja going towards you before the game slows down. Needless to say that I won't be able to implement this in MD version (if I can achieve 6 moving characters t the same time, I'll be happy).

Pyron
12-17-2015, 06:38 PM
I was almost sure that mohawkz/punks in the 1st level could stop shurikens by kicking them.

It's dosen't happen in the game, i played it alot and i never see it, if you see it is bug or pirated version.

Stef
12-18-2015, 10:33 AM
Same here, played hundred of hours and never saw that...

Kokomeri
12-19-2015, 12:24 PM
It's dosen't happen in the game, i played it alot and i never see it, if you see it is bug or pirated version.
Hey pyron...
In mobile version... yep, in original arcade/mastee system... nope.

Its a blonde punks.


Sorry for my bad english...:(

Pyron
12-19-2015, 02:32 PM
Hey pyron...
In mobile version... yep, in original arcade/mastee system... nope.

Its a blonde punks.


Sorry for my bad english...:(

Ok, now i understand, dont be angry with me but who's cares for the mobile version?
The arcade original one is the way to go, best fast paced gameplay of entire serie's
its amazing game!

Kokomeri
12-19-2015, 02:41 PM
Ok, now i understand, dont be angry with me but who's cares for the mobile version?
The arcade original one is the way to go, best fast paced gameplay of entire serie's
its amazing game!

Pois ...

I love the original game, but i only played on master system.

Man... my english sucks...:lol:

tryphon
12-19-2015, 04:19 PM
I never played the remake, but I was sure it happened on the arcade. I remember it happened on only one arcade machine in my neighborhood, and that made me upset since I lost a live in the 10 first seconds of the game while I 1cc-ed it on another machine...

Weird. If the remake does that while I don't know it, where did I take this idea...

Pyron
12-20-2015, 08:06 AM
I never played the remake, but I was sure it happened on the arcade. I remember it happened on only one arcade machine in my neighborhood, and that made me upset since I lost a live in the 10 first seconds of the game while I 1cc-ed it on another machine...

Weird. If the remake does that while I don't know it, where did I take this idea...

Tryphon thats must be one pirated version, or something worng in this machine. I'm saying that because i really played alot this game back in the day,
and i became really good on it finishing the game with one coin after spend $$$$ learning how to play
i can secure i never see that....

You gonna made the port arcade accurate puting the corporal colision bug and mandaras glitch? ( i want that =D )

tryphon
12-20-2015, 10:37 AM
Tryphon thats must be one pirated version, or something worng in this machine.

Yes, I'm pretty sure it was a pirated version. Some colors were wrong : for example, stage 2-3 was daylight whereas it's normally a nocturne one.


I'm saying that because i really played alot this game back in the day,
and i became really good on it finishing the game with one coin after spend $$$$ learning how to play
i can secure i never see that....

We did the same ;)


You gonna made the port arcade accurate puting the corporal colision bug

Yes :)


and mandaras glitch? ( i want that =D )

I don't think this one is a bug, rather an unexpected behaviour, but consistent with collisions rules. So I'll try to make my rules do the same, but I can't be affirmative.

Pyron
12-20-2015, 03:09 PM
Good know Tryphon =D
Any update ?

Barone
12-20-2015, 03:25 PM
I was almost sure that mohawkz/punks in the 1st level could stop shurikens by kicking them
It might be an undumped bootleg which MAME simply doesn't know to exist.

I know that nowadays there's still some hackers producing MKII arcade bootleg PCBs on demand (some serious $$$ involved).
I think it's possible that back in the days people were offering services like that. Maybe to increase the difficulty and replay value of the arcade games rather than for rarez collecting like today.
It's not unheard arcade bootlegs having some extra AI patterns included so it seems to be the most likely scenario here IMO.

tryphon
12-20-2015, 07:36 PM
@ Pyron:
No spectacular updates for now : I've been busy with Phantasy Star Generation 1 & 2.
I coded a gfx ressource generator from a psd (photoshop layers) file. It's easier to design collision boxes and hitboxes using layers (I can compare frame per frame).
I finetuned the behaviour of Musashi, punk and shooter, implemented projectiles (player's and ennemies').

To make things easier, I decided to code a code generator that can translate a txt file with simplified syntax into a c program to generate states machines for all ennemies. I'm currently doing it.

When it'll be finished, I'll attack the big task : the objects manager. Currently, there's at most 3 characters onscreen at once (Musashi, a punk, a shooter), I want to go to 6 at least, 8 if possible. I'm afraid it won't be possible without some problems (I think that if more than 3 objects needs to update their gfx at the same frame, it'll take too long) so it'll be time to optimize, and to find some tricks. If it isn't sufficient, I may have to recode some parts in asm.

When this part will be okay, there'll be a 1st level almost playable. I'll release an alpha ROM to test.

@ Barone : you must be right. It seems piracy in arcade was quite usual in those days.

Melf
12-20-2015, 11:11 PM
Awesome news! I can't wait to see the next update. You're doing amazing work.

LinkueiBR
12-21-2015, 03:44 PM
I found a video of this strange bootleg version of Shinobi. Plays and sounds different.
Probably this was the version that tryphon played.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qqLPBvXYbE

tryphon
12-28-2015, 08:13 PM
Here's a short video of latest version. As stated, nothing stellar but it smells like Shinobi :


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3jvah2

cabear
12-28-2015, 08:20 PM
Awesome job !!! It definitely looks like shinobi! the enemies and attacks all look great!

Vludi
12-28-2015, 10:21 PM
Here's a short video of latest version. As stated, nothing stellar but it smells like Shinobi :


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3jvah2

Fantastic!

Stef
12-29-2015, 07:42 AM
Awesome !! look like arcade perfect colors aside :)

matteus
12-29-2015, 08:24 AM
Where did the video go?

tryphon
12-29-2015, 08:44 AM
It's in my message but I can't see it from my phone, though it shows on my PC. Here's a link:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3jvah2

matteus
12-29-2015, 09:23 AM
Thanks! My phone for some reason doesn't want to play use videos unfortunately! How annoying!

OmegaMax
12-29-2015, 11:33 AM
Looks really good

Wesker
12-29-2015, 07:25 PM
I like a lot when this complicated type of homebrew consisting in replicating games from other platforms from scratch is attempted and done so accurately. :D

Keep on the good work on it. This is going to be an awesome addition to the Mega Drive library.

Pyron
12-29-2015, 08:37 PM
tryphon excelent work my friend!

just one question, have any chance to you increase a litle more musashi sprite detail?

OmegaMax
12-29-2015, 09:05 PM
How are you handling the player movement tryphon?Something like:?:

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
NinjaIdle:
move.b #ObjectIdle,ObjectState(a0)
move.b #ObjectIdleFrame,ObjectAnimationFrame(a0)
bsr Do_ClearObjectDeltas
bsr Do_ObjectStarAttack
bsr Do_ObjectCloseRangeAttack
jmp HandleObjectsCont2
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
NinjaWalkRight:
cmp.b #MWalkRight,ObjectState(a0)
beq.s NinjaWalkRightCont
move.b #MWalkRight,ObjectState(a0)
bsr Do_ModObjectAnimation
move.w #$0100,ObjectXDelta(a0)
move.b #ObjectFacingRight,ObjectFacingDirection(a0)
NinjaWalkRightCont:
bsr Do_ObjectTileMapCheck
cmp.b #Empty,d2
beq.s InitObjectPlatformGravity
bsr Do_ObjectStarAttack
bsr Do_ObjectCloseRangeAttack
jmp HandleObjectsCont
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
NinjaWalkLeft:
cmp.b #MWalkLeft,ObjectState(a0)
beq.s NinjaWalkLeftCont
move.b #MWalkLeft,ObjectState(a0)
bsr Do_ModObjectAnimation
move.w #$ff00,ObjectXDelta(a0)
move.b #ObjectFacingLeft,ObjectFacingDirection(a0)
NinjaWalkLeftCont:
bsr Do_ObjectTileMapCheck
cmp.b #Empty,d2
beq.s InitObjectPlatformGravity
bsr Do_ObjectStarAttack
bsr Do_ObjectCloseRangeAttack
jmp HandleObjectsCont
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

tryphon
12-30-2015, 10:07 AM
Thanks for your support. The next step is to handle more objects at screen at once, and it's the most frightening part of the job for me.


Awesome !! look like arcade perfect colors aside :)


tryphon excelent work my friend!

just one question, have any chance to you increase a litle more musashi sprite detail?

Concerning graphics, everything is still in complete WIP (same palettes as the first video posted, just for testing purpose). It's not yet time to study them. When the object manager will be done, I'll implement some more characters, game mechanics (hostages, bonus, power-up, next level arrow) and then, it'll be time to study how sharing palettes, what kind of downgrading must be made to arts, and experiment what looks the best. I'm slow, so I'd be surprised if I reach this stage before this summer.

And it won't be finished : there will be sound, and final game mechanics (bosses, bonus stages, title screen, end screen - this last should take less than 5 minutes, additional content...)


How are you handling the player movement tryphon?Something like:?:

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
NinjaIdle:
move.b #ObjectIdle,ObjectState(a0)
move.b #ObjectIdleFrame,ObjectAnimationFrame(a0)
bsr Do_ClearObjectDeltas
bsr Do_ObjectStarAttack
bsr Do_ObjectCloseRangeAttack
jmp HandleObjectsCont2
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
NinjaWalkRight:
cmp.b #MWalkRight,ObjectState(a0)
beq.s NinjaWalkRightCont
move.b #MWalkRight,ObjectState(a0)
bsr Do_ModObjectAnimation
move.w #$0100,ObjectXDelta(a0)
move.b #ObjectFacingRight,ObjectFacingDirection(a0)
NinjaWalkRightCont:
bsr Do_ObjectTileMapCheck
cmp.b #Empty,d2
beq.s InitObjectPlatformGravity
bsr Do_ObjectStarAttack
bsr Do_ObjectCloseRangeAttack
jmp HandleObjectsCont
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
NinjaWalkLeft:
cmp.b #MWalkLeft,ObjectState(a0)
beq.s NinjaWalkLeftCont
move.b #MWalkLeft,ObjectState(a0)
bsr Do_ModObjectAnimation
move.w #$ff00,ObjectXDelta(a0)
move.b #ObjectFacingLeft,ObjectFacingDirection(a0)
NinjaWalkLeftCont:
bsr Do_ObjectTileMapCheck
cmp.b #Empty,d2
beq.s InitObjectPlatformGravity
bsr Do_ObjectStarAttack
bsr Do_ObjectCloseRangeAttack
jmp HandleObjectsCont
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

It's a state machine (and from I can guess, so is your code) so yes.

I write the state machine in some minimal scrpting language. For example the shooter scripting is (for the moment, I still have to implement sitting and lying shooters) :


include_h projectile.h

include ../conditions.txt

define @check_shoot:
($same_level && $near):
$at_left: shoot_left
_: shoot_right

mirror_state walk_left:
align_on_bottom(self);
set_physics_p(self, -1, 0, 0, 0);
set_animation(self, SHOOTER_WALK_LEFT);
self->param1 = 1 << (random() & 3);
transitions:
@check_hit
@check_shoot
$wall: walk_right
$obstacle_left:
$at_left: jump_left
_: walk_right
$fall: fall_left
($end && $dec_param1): recharge_left

mirror_state recharge_left:
set_physics_p(self, 0, 0, 0, 0);
set_animation(self, SHOOTER_RECHARGE_LEFT);
if (self->param2 < 2) self->param2++;
else self->param2 = 2;
transitions:
@check_hit
$end:
(self->param2 < 2): recharge_left
@check_shoot
_: walk_left

mirror_state shoot_left:
set_physics_p(self, 0, 0, 0, 0);
set_animation(self, SHOOTER_PREPARATION_SHOOT_STAND_LEFT);
transitions:
@check_hit
$end: shoot2_left

mirror_state shoot2_left:
set_physics_p(self, 0, 0, 0, 0);
set_animation(self, SHOOTER_SHOOT_STAND_LEFT);
transitions:
@check_hit
(self->total_ticks_in_animation == 4): {bullet_throw_left(self, self->x + FIX32(\-40\40\), self->y + FIX32(-40));}
$end:
$dec_param2: recharge_left
_: shoot2_left

mirror_state hit_left:
self->is_dead = self->is_hit;
set_physics_p(self, 0, 0, -4, 0.5);
if (musashi.x < self->x) self->speed_x = FIX32(2);
else self->speed_x = FIX32(-2);
set_animation(self, SHOOTER_HIT_LEFT);
transitions:
$obstacle_right:
$ground:
$killed: death_left
_: walk_left
_: {self->speed_x = 0;}

mirror_state jump_left:
set_physics_p(self, 0, 0, 0, 0);
set_animation(self, SHOOTER_IMPULSE_LEFT);
transitions:
@check_hit
$end: jump1_left

mirror_state jump1_left:
set_physics_p(self, -1, 0, -5, 0.25);
set_animation(self, SHOOTER_JUMP_LEFT);
transitions:
@check_hit
$max_jump: fall_left
_: {self->speed_x = FIX32(\-1\1\);}

mirror_state fall_left:
self->accel_y = FIX32(.25);
set_animation(self, SHOOTER_FALL_LEFT);
transitions:
@check_hit
$ground: walk_left

mirror_state death_left:
set_physics_p(self, 0, 0, 0, 0);
set_animation(self, SHOOTER_DEAD_LEFT);
transitions:
$end: init_inactive


The code between mirror_state and transitions is the state initialisation, and after the transitions it's the state update (basically, it checks if you fulfilled conditions to change state). Indentation delimits groups, like in Python.

Then I wrote a Python script that translates it into a C source file (much more verbose).

The advantages of doing this are that I can generate xxx_left and xxx_right states with only one definition, that I can share code between different characters, and if I'm forced to code in asm (which I fear will be necessary up to one point) I "just" have to rewrite my Python script.

Pyron
12-30-2015, 06:10 PM
Thanks !!!!


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tryphon again.

tryphon
03-15-2016, 06:00 PM
I lack time recently (kids are always sick :( ) but I took some to finetune my ressources makers and optimize my sprite engine. I tested them with another port I intend to do some day, but what you see actually uses the Shinobi engine :


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xl066_mw1_videogames

link to the video (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xl066_mw1_videogames)

Note to segarule : the final version will allow to play the green-haired boy, I'm not racist :p

LinkueiBR
03-15-2016, 07:11 PM
I lack time recently (kids are always sick :( ) but I took some to finetune my ressources makers and optimize my sprite engine. I tested them with another port I intend to do some day, but what you see actually uses the Shinobi engine :


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xl066_mw1_videogames

link to the video (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xl066_mw1_videogames)

Note to segarule : the final version will allow to play the green-haired boy, I'm not racist :p

Wonder Boy 3 - Monster Word... One of the best games ever!
Any update in the Shinobi project?

OmegaMax
03-15-2016, 07:13 PM
Great to see you still coding the engine in you're spare time,sorry to hear about you're children being ill.

Allard
03-16-2016, 11:54 AM
I lack time recently (kids are always sick :( ) but I took some to finetune my ressources makers and optimize my sprite engine. I tested them with another port I intend to do some day, but what you see actually uses the Shinobi engine :


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xl066_mw1_videogames

link to the video (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xl066_mw1_videogames)

Note to segarule : the final version will allow to play the green-haired boy, I'm not racist :p
Man, I hope your kids will get well and won't get sick as often (and not just because it keeps you from coding the game).

Pyron
03-16-2016, 02:51 PM
I lack time recently (kids are always sick :( ) but I took some to finetune my ressources makers and optimize my sprite engine. I tested them with another port I intend to do some day, but what you see actually uses the Shinobi engine :


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xl066_mw1_videogames

link to the video (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xl066_mw1_videogames)

Note to segarule : the final version will allow to play the green-haired boy, I'm not racist :p

Congrats my friend, i pray to god for you keeping going and focus to finish shinobi... my childhood dream =D

Pyron
01-06-2017, 11:22 AM
UP!!!


Because this should never be forgotten

tryphon
01-06-2017, 01:49 PM
I am currently working on this (or rather, on something closely related that should make progress quite fast when it'll be finished). I'll tell more when I'll have something to show, but at last, I'm working on it again !

OmegaMax
01-07-2017, 09:55 AM
Master system shinobi special edition tech demo,not sure if you seen this Tryphon


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGUDwklBRFA&feature=youtu.be

smokemonster
01-07-2017, 10:15 AM
Glad to hear you're back in action Tryphon! :D

LinkueiBR
01-07-2017, 10:36 AM
I am currently working on this (or rather, on something closely related that should make progress quite fast when it'll be finished). I'll tell more when I'll have something to show, but at last, I'm working on it again !

If you need a help to convert graphics or sounds... Shinobi MD need to be finished!!!

OFF: I would love to hear the Shinobi soundtrack with PCM percussion instead of FM. Like Super Shinobi 1 and 2...

tryphon
01-07-2017, 10:38 AM
Thanks.

@OmegaMax : yes I knew it and even posted here about it. AFAIK it's a member of sega16 who did it (Maxfarras ? Or you ?) but I think it hasn't been further than this demo.

TBH I'd be very surprised that SMS can handle such big sprites, considering how much troubles I have to animate more than 4 of them on MD.

But the work on colors is awesome.

OmegaMax
01-07-2017, 04:45 PM
Yes not mine,I also have my doubts about the amount of sprites that it would require.I also like the colors,anyway keep us posted on progress of your projects.

LinkueiBR
05-22-2017, 10:13 PM
UP!!!


Because this should never be forgotten Part II

Alianger
05-23-2017, 04:43 AM
Master system shinobi special edition tech demo,not sure if you seen this Tryphon

Is there a working video?

OmegaMax
05-24-2017, 12:49 PM
If you have access to a master system emulator you can try it yourself,get it here http://www.smspower.org/forums/11459-MyShinobiSEDemo

LinkueiBR
05-25-2017, 06:30 PM
Looks like that Tryphon recorded a video of his port 3 months ago... Looks great!!! :D


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5cr3j3_shinopy01_videogames

Alianger
05-25-2017, 06:47 PM
If you have access to a master system emulator you can try it yourself,get it here http://www.smspower.org/forums/11459-MyShinobiSEDemo

Thanks for the link.

philip
10-11-2017, 07:44 AM
My result for color test to mission 1-1 : 55 colors out of 512.
palette 0 : Layer B (6 colors mission 1-1) and sprite (10 colors)
palette 1 : Layer A (15 colors mission 1-1)
palette 3 : sprites (15 colors)
palette 4 : sprites (15 colors)
MD_stg1_all.png
http://www.mirari.fr/bubU (http://www.mirari.fr/MUb2)
:D

LinkueiBR
10-11-2017, 11:39 AM
My result for color test to mission 1-1 : 55 colors out of 512.
palette 0 : Layer B (6 colors mission 1-1) and sprite (10 colors)
palette 1 : Layer A (15 colors mission 1-1)
palette 3 : sprites (15 colors)
palette 4 : sprites (15 colors)
MD_stg1_all.png
http://www.mirari.fr/bubU (http://www.mirari.fr/MUb2)
:D

Amazing!!!

Alianger
10-11-2017, 12:35 PM
Good job dude.

Alianger
10-12-2017, 11:44 AM
I messed around a bit with porting BGM1 to MD, had to use ch3 mode or psg to get all the harmonies in. Not sure what compromises sound best.
https://ufile.io/gts3m

Pyron
10-12-2017, 03:18 PM
My result for color test to mission 1-1 : 55 colors out of 512.
palette 0 : Layer B (6 colors mission 1-1) and sprite (10 colors)
palette 1 : Layer A (15 colors mission 1-1)
palette 3 : sprites (15 colors)
palette 4 : sprites (15 colors)
MD_stg1_all.png
http://www.mirari.fr/bubU (http://www.mirari.fr/MUb2)
:D

Looks cool, but the colors of joe and ninja enemys is too diferent from the original from my tastes, md can deliver more faithfull visuals.

philip
10-13-2017, 06:57 PM
Thanks you. :D

@Pyron
It's difficult, the ninjas arcade version, red, green, blue and yellow = 40 colors !
The scenery is most brighter, compared to arcade version, but with better contrast, so Joe must be brighter too.

dr apocalipsis
10-13-2017, 07:45 PM
It's difficult, the ninjas arcade version, red, green, blue and yellow = 40 colors !
The scenery is most brighter, compared to arcade version, but with better contrast, so Joe must be brighter too.

Well, I figure not all enemies share screen at once, you know.

Anyway, I find your job pretty good. Not like most arcade emulators show the correct colors anyway, MAME is known for its washed out aspect.

LinkueiBR
10-14-2017, 08:52 AM
Yep we need yo remember that, unfortunately, MAME have very inacurate colors.

Black_Tiger
10-14-2017, 12:54 PM
I often hear people say that misc issues in system 16 and other arcade hardware is the result of mame, but my system 16 pcbs all look the same in dedicated system 16 cabinets, other arcade cabinets and with my superguns.

LinkueiBR
10-14-2017, 05:04 PM
Wow i don't have noticed these 2 Shinobi MD videos that was uploaded 4 months ago

Title Screen:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5oqysq

Gameplay:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5oo6c5

Gorgeous!

philip
10-14-2017, 07:13 PM
I messed around a bit with porting BGM1 to MD, had to use ch3 mode or psg to get all the harmonies in. Not sure what compromises sound best.
https://ufile.io/gts3m
I like your version ! :D

@ dr apocalipsis
Color test comparaison with games popular for MD :
http://www.mirari.fr/ABge (http://www.mirari.fr/1DSD)
;)

Pyron
10-15-2017, 08:06 PM
Yep we need yo remember that, unfortunately, MAME have very inacurate colors.

yeah but in shinobi case and other system 16 games its close from reality

OverDrone
10-16-2017, 02:46 AM
Wow i don't have noticed these 2 Shinobi MD videos that was uploaded 4 months ago

Title Screen:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5oqysq

Gameplay:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5oo6c5

Gorgeous!

It looks like it would play amazingly. It moves just like the coin op. Incredible!!

If it were to have got to the stage of having audio, the MD could handle a 'perfect' rendition of the music, or go one better and give it a MD style arrange!

Nightwolf
10-16-2017, 02:03 PM
Just... amazing... Really really cool man!

Alianger
10-16-2017, 04:25 PM
I like your version ! :D

@ dr apocalipsis
Color test comparaison with games popular for MD :
http://www.mirari.fr/ABge (http://www.mirari.fr/1DSD)
;)

Thanks, updated it and covered BGM 2 as well: https://ufile.io/03mpr

LinkueiBR
10-16-2017, 05:25 PM
Thanks, updated it and covered BGM 2 as well: https://ufile.io/03mpr

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Alianger again."

Good job Alianger!

Alianger
10-21-2017, 12:10 PM
Boss theme cover: https://ufile.io/92isc

Stef
10-23-2017, 12:42 PM
Awesome conversions ! Definitely looking forward your futures works !

Pyron
10-24-2017, 05:37 PM
Thanks, updated it and covered BGM 2 as well: https://ufile.io/03mpr

i loved it, good work

LinkueiBR
12-04-2017, 09:28 AM
Just check it out some recent videos from days ago:

http://www.dailymotion.com/Le_Furet/videos

Tryphon job is impressive! O.O

Pyron
12-04-2017, 09:50 AM
freaking cool, i really wanna know why he dosen't post here anymore ? :(

Thief
12-04-2017, 09:59 AM
Nobody wants to post here anymore, and that's how people here like it.

Pyron
12-04-2017, 10:07 AM
Nobody wants to post here anymore, and that's how people here like it.
I understand, there's any place where i can follow your progress and others projects ? PM me if it is possible plz

Thief
12-04-2017, 10:46 AM
Ah, thee ol' chip on shoulder reply.

Barone
12-04-2017, 03:38 PM
Tryphon job is impressive! O.O
Guy is a ninja himself.

SEGA.GENESIS1989
12-04-2017, 07:48 PM
Just check it out some recent videos from days ago:

http://www.dailymotion.com/Le_Furet/videos

Tryphon job is impressive! O.O


Jesus Christ almighty! Tryphon has done quite a bit of work! This was totally unexpected! I've quietly been hoping that he's been working on the port! Thanks very much for posting an update LinkueiBR! :D

I tried repping you but unfortunately got the message "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LinkueiBR again." :(

Melf
12-05-2017, 10:50 AM
This looks amazing! I'm so glad he's kept working on it. I can't wait to play a finished version.

OmegaMax
12-11-2017, 10:56 PM
I can't wait to play a finished version.

Me too

Pyron
03-14-2018, 07:06 PM
More Videos..
Tryphon is my hero!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6cwalo
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6d5yk9
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6dxlzv
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6e1ndn

SEGA.GENESIS1989
03-15-2018, 12:57 AM
Thanks for posting the videos Pyron!

*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Pyron again.*

OmegaMax
03-15-2018, 06:57 AM
Impressive

MegaDriver
03-15-2018, 02:25 PM
Very impressive indeed!

IrishNinja
03-15-2018, 06:57 PM
a good buddy of mine has the coin-op, got to play it a bit again last year....and those videos look fantastic in that light, can't wait!

EPSYLON EAGLE
03-21-2018, 11:48 AM
It is worth remembering that the prototype is not optimized yet for the Mega Drive color limitations.

http://www.gamopat-forum.com/t82606p450-shinobi-1-sur-md

cabear
03-26-2018, 02:02 AM
that looks amazing, i always wanted a genesis port of shinobi but never got it!

bertodecosta
03-28-2018, 10:00 PM
Stage 5.3 video is up :


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gl8am

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gl8am

Chev Chelios
04-23-2018, 08:28 PM
The first Rastan of the arcade would be a very cool idea.

SEGA.GENESIS1989
04-23-2018, 10:19 PM
This conversion is turning out to be totally wicked! The video makes Joe Musashi look like a total bad @55! Hehe!

drludos
05-03-2018, 02:34 PM
Small update, Tryphon and Philipp are currently working on converting all the graphics from the arcade to the limited color palette of the Genesis. Here is a WIP version with several different sprites, they look very cool:
http://www.mirari.fr/nYyQ

The work they are doing on this conversion is more and more impressive every day!

Chev Chelios
05-04-2018, 12:26 AM
Small update, Tryphon and Philipp are currently working on converting all the graphics from the arcade to the limited color palette of the Genesis. Here is a WIP version with several different sprites, they look very cool:
http://www.mirari.fr/nYyQ

The work they are doing on this conversion is more and more impressive every day!

I'm following the gamopat forum topic, I wish I could help but I do not have the necessary knowledge, the work is getting impressive, and although they quote Mega Drive with the palette, I tend to think that this Big Mega palette makes it a home of critavity in matters of general, since the game is getting fantastic colors.
I hope the project is completed.

Jeckidy
05-04-2018, 02:10 AM
I'm following the gamopat forum topic, I wish I could help but I do not have the necessary knowledge, the work is getting impressive, and although they quote Mega Drive with the palette, I tend to think that this Big Mega palette makes it a home of critavity in matters of general, since the game is getting fantastic colors.
I hope the project is completed.

I also hope the project is completed. It's not a very large game to begin with! Genesis was more than capable of handling a quality port of the original arcade Shinobi. You have to wonder why it never happened, considering all the sequels for it on Genesis, including the numerous console ports of Sega's arcade games. As far as home ports go, I just stick with the Master System version, but like I said, the MD deserved a more faithful port of this game.

Pyron
05-04-2018, 08:42 AM
Small update, Tryphon and Philipp are currently working on converting all the graphics from the arcade to the limited color palette of the Genesis. Here is a WIP version with several different sprites, they look very cool:
http://www.mirari.fr/nYyQ

The work they are doing on this conversion is more and more impressive every day!

Looking good, but cyan ninjas instead of the classic blue ninja's destroy my heart!

Pyron
05-04-2018, 10:08 AM
I visit the forum and i see this image bellow:

http://www.mirari.fr/YfFZ
Its a good work use 1 pallete for all enemys of the game but they dosent look good at all
1 pallete to interface / all enemys / effects is too much

i think that they can use musashi pallete to ui and effects too, allowing draw some enemys with this pallete
also gives more freedom to second pallete to enemys, resting 2 full palletes to bkg

Chev Chelios
05-07-2018, 04:40 AM
I visit the forum and i see this image bellow:

http://www.mirari.fr/YfFZ
Its a good work use 1 pallete for all enemys of the game but they dosent look good at all
1 pallete to interface / all enemys / effects is too much

i think that they can use musashi pallete to ui and effects too, allowing draw some enemys with this pallete
also gives more freedom to second pallete to enemys, resting 2 full palletes to bkg

Did you suggest this possibility to them?

Even save those caveats, I'm enjoying the vivid colors of the port (maybe the effects may get weird) but overall it's great.

Pyron
05-07-2018, 08:56 AM
Did you suggest this possibility to them?

Even save those caveats, I'm enjoying the vivid colors of the port (maybe the effects may get weird) but overall it's great.

we dosen't have contact with them, tryphon abandoned us.. sadly

Chev Chelios
05-07-2018, 09:35 AM
we dosen't have contact with them, tryphon abandoned us.. sadly

What a pity, I registered there to upset ( importunar ) a bit, maybe to influence something.
But we have to hope for him to take the best route.

drludos
05-07-2018, 05:49 PM
I also hope the project is completed. It's not a very large game to begin with! Genesis was more than capable of handling a quality port of the original arcade Shinobi. You have to wonder why it never happened, considering all the sequels for it on Genesis, including the numerous console ports of Sega's arcade games. As far as home ports go, I just stick with the Master System version, but like I said, the MD deserved a more faithful port of this game.

That was my first thought too. However, reading the details of the project here and in the french forum (gamopat) it seems that Shinobi 1 is a more complex game than it looks like at first. For example, the images (sprites, BG) use loads of different colors, so it's very difficult to fit them all inside 4 palettes only. Also, the game can display loads of enemies at the same time, and the sprites are quite big, making the task even more difficult for Tryphon. But regarding all the progress he made, I really think he will complete the project and deliver a wonderful port!

Oh, and don't worry Pyron (and others) - Although Tryphon doesn't have the time to post here as much as he would like, he does read all your suggestions and ideas on this sub!

Chev Chelios
05-07-2018, 06:26 PM
we dosen't have contact with them, tryphon abandoned us.. sadly

I told him about your comment, he gave an explanation and said he would talk to you, since he likes your job.

LinkueiBR
05-07-2018, 06:38 PM
I never liked the controls from the SMS Shinobi. Hurts a bit to say this, but for me... it sucks!
Arcade all the way!!!

Pyron
05-08-2018, 03:29 PM
Oh, and don't worry Pyron (and others) - Although Tryphon doesn't have the time to post here as much as he would like, he does read all your suggestions and ideas on this sub!


I told him about your comment, he gave an explanation and said he would talk to you, since he likes your job.

That's great!!! I never understood why he disappeared, but I liked to exchange ideas with him, I always enjoyed his work. I hope everyone can contribute in some way to getting this project out of the best way possible.

philip
05-08-2018, 04:34 PM
Here results of my research :

http://www.mirari.fr/aO6o

http://www.mirari.fr/Ah72

http://www.mirari.fr/YfFZ

http://www.mirari.fr/nYyQ

Pyron
05-08-2018, 07:34 PM
Amazing work Philip, congratulations.

Also look at screens i think i can use only 1 pallete to bkgs, so i can work with 3 palletes to musashi / enemys.
i don't know the engine restrictions or how the project was setup but one day if tryphon allow me some try.. i can do some tests

Chev Chelios
05-09-2018, 08:47 AM
Amazing work Philip, congratulations.

Also look at screens i think i can use only 1 pallete to bkgs, so i can work with 3 palletes to musashi / enemys.
i don't know the engine restrictions or how the project was setup but one day if tryphon allow me some try.. i can do some tests

Cool, so I understand that one of your reasons for leaving Sega 16 aside is because of English, but he admires his work, talk to him in MP on Gamopat.

Pyron
05-09-2018, 07:05 PM
I did one try with musashi main pallete
Like i said, we can use it to fonts, fire effects, all ninjtusu of the game and much more..

The pow explosion i can dither it a little but i think is better wait for what i can do with the others pallets in the future
also i didn't find all enemys sprites to rip so i did play a litle and take some basics, i need of all sprites to look what else i can fit here..
another thing is i can do better job on punk with another pallete to guards and humanoid enemys

anyway here is my try, if someone can ask to tryphon some feedback i will liked it, thanks

https://i.imgur.com/ZUtTgNp.png
*upload degraded a litle the colors

drludos
05-09-2018, 07:27 PM
Woaw, it looks great!

I've just posted your picture on the gamopat forum:
http://www.gamopat-forum.com/t82606p660-shinobi-1-sur-md#2799694

I'll translate you back into english any feedback :)!

tryphon
05-09-2018, 07:33 PM
It's slow for me to write English, but I can do it :D

Thanks Pyron. I'm looking forward to watching what you can do with the second palette.

Also, note we don't need 2 full palettes for the backgrounds : the back plane uses only 8-10 colors in arcade, some of them can't be differentied by the 9 bits Megadrive master palette. So you still have half a palette for sprites (I'm also considering the possibility to use only one palette for both planes, switching colors with a HInt).

Pyron
05-09-2018, 08:38 PM
It's slow for me to write English, but I can do it :D

Thanks Pyron. I'm looking forward to watching what you can do with the second palette.

Also, note we don't need 2 full palettes for the backgrounds : the back plane uses only 8-10 colors in arcade, some of them can't be differentied by the 9 bits Megadrive master palette. So you still have half a palette for sprites (I'm also considering the possibility to use only one palette for both planes, switching colors with a HInt).

Nice see you here =D

I need yur help with at least 1 sample for each enemy sprite, only with it i can do more palletes because i need the reference.

About the half pallete in second bg plane, is a challenge do something with 6 shades but we can use to pow or increase the details on the firts plane with the objects, posters, barrels, boxes and etc..

Chev Chelios
05-10-2018, 08:37 AM
Smooth changes, but more closer to the original.
Great job.

vash999
05-10-2018, 11:59 AM
Is in this type of projects where I find the real power of this console! A blast procesing !!!

Chev Chelios
05-10-2018, 12:14 PM
Is in this type of projects where I find the real power of this console! A blast procesing !!!

These projects make us very excited.
I remember a time ago a member here of the forum started a Hyperstone hack with some changes even trying to add the first stage "Big Apple", I would like it so much that it had continued, would be wonderful Hyperstone with this intro, plus the color adjustments of the Pyron.

Pyron
05-10-2018, 03:36 PM
I did i litle tweak here, the orange is too close each other that's i drop one shade, also i'm add more alternate colors for some enemrys to add more variety on the screen

https://i.imgur.com/ZUtTgNp.png
*to full otimization i need to test with real hardware that's is impossible for now

@tryphon, i think that is not a good ideia we haxe fixed enemys palletes for entire game, each section has your own set of enemys
the only enemy thats appears random in each stage is the ninja that is well suplied in my main pallete

my sugestion: Each sub stage loads a entire new palletes include the enemrys colors like any another game,
with this i can do a betther job for each section of the game with richer visuals and more close to the original.

*edit: updated with more variations

Pyron
05-11-2018, 10:16 AM
I do not know the restrictions of the project, and how faithful Tryphon wants to be to the arcade, I say this because making a palette so musashi is identical to the arcade is easy, but it will be less versatile for the game. In addition, from my experience, I affirm that the arcade palette has not been good in MD, those greenish-yellow shades next to each other do not have sufficient contrast and will merge with each other losing detail. If you play on the actual hardware I say that the visual with more contrast is the right way for the colors to work in the MD, if the reference is just emulator then not the one to discuss ..

Another thing, many get the Mame as a reference, but it's just for you to have a notion, the real experience in an arcade with decent monitor with the board sent the signal straight through rgb at 15khz you will know that the Mame for several games passes a very different look.

Anyway, we can refine this work a lot more than it has a prototype in our hands to burn for real hardware because although many will not believe it, the colors in any mega drive emulator are not accurate

philip
05-11-2018, 08:05 PM
I do not know the restrictions of the project, and how faithful Tryphon wants to be to the arcade, I say this because making a palette so musashi is identical to the arcade is easy, but it will be less versatile for the game. In addition, from my experience, I affirm that the arcade palette has not been good in MD, those greenish-yellow shades next to each other do not have sufficient contrast and will merge with each other losing detail. If you play on the actual hardware I say that the visual with more contrast is the right way for the colors to work in the MD, if the reference is just emulator then not the one to discuss ..

Another thing, many get the Mame as a reference, but it's just for you to have a notion, the real experience in an arcade with decent monitor with the board sent the signal straight through rgb at 15khz you will know that the Mame for several games passes a very different look.

Anyway, we can refine this work a lot more than it has a prototype in our hands to burn for real hardware because although many will not believe it, the colors in any mega drive emulator are not accurate
There is no problem of contrast for Joe. Here is a photograph on my Trinitron television :
http://www.mirari.fr/OXKz

Pyron
05-12-2018, 11:06 AM
https://i.imgur.com/kTi3F6n.png

With this I think I finished making all the enemies of the game, I can still create other sub colors for the existing ones.
Summing up with 2 palettes we solved the problem of the game, I also say that almost all did not lose any level of shading compared to the original, only adaptations were made just for the sprite not to lose detail.

Again, tryphon did not tell me anything about the constraints of the project, so I'm trying to wipe the whole process to 2 palettes if I can not use these two palettes freely so really the work would have to be very degraded.

Anyway, no one asked for my help, I'm doing it myself, I do not want to disturb the process and degrade the work that others did in any way, so I apologize if anyone has thought of something like that.
But Tryphon is well aware that the original Shinobi is one of my favorite games of life and before he started the project I had commented with him that this was the game I wanted most in the MD, so I feel compelled to do something. Hope it helps in the project somehow.

A hug to everyone involved.

Melf
05-12-2018, 01:39 PM
No worries. All of you are doing the lord's work with this project. It looks amazing.

Chev Chelios
05-12-2018, 03:07 PM
I totally agree with Melf, it's very cool to see everyone's efforts to help Tryphon in this fantastic project.
Pyron his work has been magnificent, as always of excellence, and like the one of the Philip of a more range of options to help the Tryphon.
And even though he says it's a personal project and the choices are his, he says he shares it because he likes some people.
He's a nice and sensible guy, sure enough based on his engine he's going to make the best decision.
Thanks again for your contribution Pyron.

tryphon
05-12-2018, 06:20 PM
Thanks Pyron, it's really interesting.

I didn't tell you aout the constraints for the simple reason they aren't fixed. I was starting on 2.5 palettes sprites + 0.5 palette background b + 1 palette background a, but :

* you show 2 palettes for sprites can be nice, even if not totally faithful (I miss green ninja, in particular)

* some tries about background shows that 1.5 palettes can be hardly sufficient (level 5-2), or to the contrary, too much (stage 2-2 is as arcade-perfect as possible with 1 palette). A color change via HInt can help in some stages, but not in every stages (in particular 5-2)

so do anything you want :)

Just a remark : for alternate colors, it's more common (much cheaper in ROM) to switch palettes rather than colors (see what I mean ? For example, use palette 2 with ninjas). Also, don't focus on bosses (including yellow ninjas) since their palette can be specific (there are no normal ennemies in these stages).

Pyron
05-13-2018, 10:29 PM
Thanks Pyron, it's really interesting.

I didn't tell you aout the constraints for the simple reason they aren't fixed. I was starting on 2.5 palettes sprites + 0.5 palette background b + 1 palette background a, but :

* you show 2 palettes for sprites can be nice, even if not totally faithful (I miss green ninja, in particular)

I think that's the point of the question: What is it to be faithful to the original?

Keep details of the beautiful pixel art of the game and the richness of the scenarios and sprites that were iconic for everyone at the time
or
sacrificing much of this quality to have elements with more "diverse" colors that resemble the first look at the arcade

My goal with Mega Drive has always been to add details instead and to subtract, as was common in the era in which the console suffered from multiple ports cuts for accounts where people did not know how to handle the limitations, you'll see one side of that soon with SF RM and I wanted the Shinobi not to suffer the same end. Also as you can see, I have now made the green ninja with the second palette, however, having the same green arcade is impossible since it will destroy all other elements that use the same color.

Now if you go to the side of only making more "faithful" colors, unfortunately you're going to have to go to the path I was seeing being presented which was to cut as much as possible




* some tries about background shows that 1.5 palettes can be hardly sufficient (level 5-2), or to the contrary, too much (stage 2-2 is as arcade-perfect as possible with 1 palette). A color change via HInt can help in some stages, but not in every stages (in particular 5-2)

so do anything you want :)
That's cool.. we can use to do some tricks or use to special enemys like spiderman thats requires alot of blue shades that i can't achiv with my main pallete.



Just a remark : for alternate colors, it's more common (much cheaper in ROM) to switch palettes rather than colors (see what I mean ? For example, use palette 2 with ninjas). Also, don't focus on bosses (including yellow ninjas) since their palette can be specific (there are no normal ennemies in these stages).
I think that to have more quality we will have to escape from the common, in almost all the sprites the palette was used to the maximum to add shades and details, then almost the whole time you will need to have the two loaded which will not do much good to be carrying several sub palettes on the fly.

What I see being done in games like street fighter and streets of rage is that a copy of the sprite is loaded into the vram and via some code they can make each instance of that copy use different positions of the palette, I do not know how complex it is to do but I hope that you can get some solution in this direction, and for everything I've seen you doing so far .. I think that you kick for easy goal!

tryphon
05-14-2018, 04:58 AM
I think that's the point of the question: What is it to be faithful to the original?

Keep details of the beautiful pixel art of the game and the richness of the scenarios and sprites that were iconic for everyone at the time
or
sacrificing much of this quality to have elements with more "diverse" colors that resemble the first look at the arcade

It's a biased way to express it, but yes, it's the point :D

The problem with Shinobi, is that the colors are also iconic : the particular full green of the ninjas (that no real-life ninja would ever consider for a suit) is for me a signature of the game.

But I understand perfectly your view, and I'll code the ressource generator so it's easy to compile several colorizations of the game.


My goal with Mega Drive has always been to add details instead and to subtract, as was common in the era in which the console suffered from multiple ports cuts for accounts where people did not know how to handle the limitations, you'll see one side of that soon with SF RM and I wanted the Shinobi not to suffer the same end. Also as you can see, I have now made the green ninja with the second palette, however, having the same green arcade is impossible since it will destroy all other elements that use the same color.

Now if you go to the side of only making more "faithful" colors, unfortunately you're going to have to go to the path I was seeing being presented which was to cut as much as possible

No, you're exagerating. If I exagerate the other way, I can say that if you want to keep all details, you'll end with nonsensic/washed-out colors. I think we both agree that the best is somewhere between both attitudes.

That said, I understand your point. If you feel inclined to, try to colorize some stages :

* some rich in colors, like 5-2, 4-1 (and 3-1, 5-1)

* some poorer like 1-1 or 2-2, to see if we don't waste too much.

It's possible to use more than 1 palette for a given background, but we must make sure that the whole tile is rendered with the same palette !


That's cool.. we can use to do some tricks or use to special enemys like spiderman thats requires alot of blue shades that i can't achiv with my main pallete.

Note also that spiderman, when hit, becomes full white and grey (even if it won't be a huge loss if we must alter this one).


I think that to have more quality we will have to escape from the common, in almost all the sprites the palette was used to the maximum to add shades and details, then almost the whole time you will need to have the two loaded which will not do much good to be carrying several sub palettes on the fly.

OK. It isn't a real problem (see below).

That said, it can be done on green ninjas, it only requires to align one of the ninja with musashi palette and the second palette. Maybe we can align 2 other enemies.


What I see being done in games like street fighter and streets of rage is that a copy of the sprite is loaded into the vram and via some code they can make each instance of that copy use different positions of the palette, I do not know how complex it is to do but I hope that you can get some solution in this direction, and for everything I've seen you doing so far .. I think that you kick for easy goal!

I don't remember these games shift color indices :

* Streets Fighter uses 2 different palettes for each player, the color indices are the same (if you play Ryu vs Ryu, you'll see the colors matching in the two palettes). The sprite are dynamic : only the current frame is loaded in VRAM (which is far too small to load everything)

* Streets of rage I don't know ; I'd assume it loads all the frames of a given enemy type in VRAM (sprites are static), and render them with different palettes if they are not of the same "class" (ie the same sprite with different colors). If it'd do the thing another way, it'd require twice as much VRAM, and I think it's already near full)

Concerning Shinobi, we don't have the same limitations. (Most of the) sprites are dynamic, so it's perfectly possible to store different copies of the same sprites with different indices (but it'll make the ROM bigger) (which isn't really a problem, but I'd like the idea to keep not to far from the old days limitations, so 8Mb would be neat, 16Mb acceptable, but bigger seems overkill). I could code something to do it on-the-fly but I fear it has negative impact on performances, and it's my main concern (the engine is already more ressource-eating than Shadow Dancer's).

But it isn't a real constraint, so don't bother with that right now.

I'm currently (slowly because I suffer from headaches for a week) converting my ressources generators to SGDK and will compile some ROMs with stages + sprites, to see what happens on real hardware.

Don't hesitate to post your tries on stages, if you do them :)

And thanks for all your work !

Stef
05-14-2018, 06:18 AM
Concerning Shinobi, we don't have the same limitations. (Most of the) sprites are dynamic, so it's perfectly possible to store different copies of the same sprites with different indices (but it'll make the ROM bigger) (which isn't really a problem, but I'd like the idea to keep not to far from the old days limitations, so 8Mb would be neat, 16Mb acceptable, but bigger seems overkill). I could code something to do it on-the-fly but I fear it has negative impact on performances, and it's my main concern (the engine is already more ressource-eating than Shadow Dancer's).


About that specific point, if your palette is correctly arranged (mean that color shades are always arranged in same order : dark, medium, light...)
Then you can quickly convert the tiles data using long addition on tile data, basically to convert your sprite tiles you can do something like that (for 4 sub palettes of 4 colors):


static const u32 subPalShift[4] = {0x00000000, 0x44444444, 0x88888888, 0xCCCCCCCC};
u32 tileBuffer[8 * maxTilePerFrame];

u32 *src = sprite->tiles;
u32 *dst = tileBuffer;
const u32 sft = subPalShift[subPal];
u16 numTile = sprite->frame->numTile;

while(numTile--)
{
*dst++ = *src++ + sft;
*dst++ = *src++ + sft;
*dst++ = *src++ + sft;
*dst++ = *src++ + sft;
*dst++ = *src++ + sft;
*dst++ = *src++ + sft;
*dst++ = *src++ + sft;
*dst++ = *src++ + sft;
}

Then you need to use 'dst' tiles for your sprite, that should be fast enough depending the number of converted sprites.

Pyron
05-14-2018, 11:15 AM
It's a biased way to express it, but yes, it's the point :D

The problem with Shinobi, is that the colors are also iconic : the particular full green of the ninjas (that no real-life ninja would ever consider for a suit) is for me a signature of the game.

But I understand perfectly your view, and I'll code the ressource generator so it's easy to compile several colorizations of the game.
Yeah, i think that it is a personal feeling for each person, like i said before about the cyan blue ninja.. for me this one is more iconic and assassin
anyway i remove most of "alternate" versions and i remade the pallete, maybe you like it more.. you are boss here!
but keep in mind to optmize i need use the real hardware and the image upload always degrade the colors.
https://i.imgur.com/Lsls8lO.png



No, you're exagerating. If I exagerate the other way, I can say that if you want to keep all details, you'll end with nonsensic/washed-out colors. I think we both agree that the best is somewhere between both attitudes.
I apologize if I had passed this feeling, but I am extremely detail-oriented and pay close attention to detail. As you said to me, the arcade pallete does not fit into the hardware of 9-bit MD, if you look at all the enemies in the game, including the bosses, you'll see pastels tones very close to each other, what i did in overall is got a more vivid look without losing the "faithful" look as much as possible.

The problem that the most iconic enemy of the game uses vibrant colors (the ninjas) .. and I think I managed to represent them right here (blue, red and yellow) but to be 100% accurate arcade we need a whole palette dedicated to them , or you need to sacrifice all the other sprites in the game.
You might disagree, but what I saw in some previews was a major degradation of the sprites.




* some rich in colors, like 5-2, 4-1 (and 3-1, 5-1)

* some poorer like 1-1 or 2-2, to see if we don't waste too much.

It's possible to use more than 1 palette for a given background, but we must make sure that the whole tile is rendered with the same palette !

I will try, i need found some rip material or rip it myself to make a try.




Note also that spiderman, when hit, becomes full white and grey (even if it won't be a huge loss if we must alter this one).

If he uses this special space in second bg pallete, maybe we can use a trick to uses pre allocated palletes and swap between then,
Final Fight CD uses a very small pieces of palletes that is been allocated on the fly by enemys on the screen, you can try look how they do that process.








* Streets Fighter uses 2 different palettes for each player, the color indices are the same (if you play Ryu vs Ryu, you'll see the colors matching in the two palettes). The sprite are dynamic : only the current frame is loaded in VRAM (which is far too small to load everything)

I'm was talking about of effects and special effects, like hadouken thats always are load on vram using blue and red shades. But i revised the rom and i found 2 copys of same sprite using diferent colors like you said, so i'm worng here sorry.




Concerning Shinobi, we don't have the same limitations. (Most of the) sprites are dynamic, so it's perfectly possible to store different copies of the same sprites with different indices (but it'll make the ROM bigger) (which isn't really a problem, but I'd like the idea to keep not to far from the old days limitations, so 8Mb would be neat, 16Mb acceptable, but bigger seems overkill). I could code something to do it on-the-fly but I fear it has negative impact on performances, and it's my main concern (the engine is already more ressource-eating than Shadow Dancer's).

I think we can drop a ideia to have several alternate versions of the same sprite, uses what you think is more faithfull to original and just create a copy for the ninjas and the big guards thats uses alternate colors. The important is be close of the arcade, we didn't lose anything adding alot the colors in enemys..


And ofc i will keep trying, just tell me the direction that you wanna go to me follow your steps, because you are the boss here.. cya!!

tryphon
05-14-2018, 02:54 PM
You can find all the backgrounds here :

https://www.vg-resource.com/thread-31701.html

Pyron
05-14-2018, 03:08 PM
That said, I understand your point. If you feel inclined to, try to colorize some stages :

* some rich in colors, like 5-2,

I'm very curious about and i did here your first sugestion, its a very easy one.
I did'nt rip myself but i take png screens to this.. and cut parts that's you gonna use as tiles

the result:
https://i.imgur.com/o4333HU.png
*reference
http://www.gamerstavern.com/assets/screenshots/shinobi1_07.png

The firts 3 orange shades its for you do a cicle fire effect on lamps.
Also i know that's in the end of stage has the house entrance,
but i already left the shades for it on pallete that's uses the same on the example above,
if you like it tell me to go to others stages, or give me orientation to changes.

Pyron
05-14-2018, 03:26 PM
You can find all the backgrounds here :

https://www.vg-resource.com/thread-31701.html


I just look before post.. thank you for source material
The arcade put everything on one plane because the limitations is not the problem to system 16
In stage 5-2 if you gonna do in the same way we are in trouble
so we can use priority trick to use both planes in wise way,
or just set tiles the right pallete i think can work
tell me if is possible in your engine or if i need redo the work


also i need to ask, is possible use parallax on second bg ?

chilled
05-14-2018, 03:43 PM
just make it a full 32 MEGA POWER rom even if that means leaving everything uncompressed + easteregging naked pics of Pyron & Tryphon

tryphon
05-14-2018, 07:13 PM
I just look before post.. thank you for source material
The arcade put everything on one plane because the limitations is not the problem to system 16
In stage 5-2 if you gonna do in the same way we are in trouble
so we can use priority trick to use both planes in wise way,

I really don't see how. Both planes don't scroll at the same speed, and they overlap...


or just set tiles the right pallete i think can work

I think that rearranging the colors in each palettes should be sufficient.

Also note 2 things :

1) I need only one color for the cycle effect of firelamps

2) if necessary, we can use a HInt to swap the colors of the roof of the house at the end of the stage with the stone colors (and the colors of the wall with the grass colors)


also i need to ask, is possible use parallax on second bg ?

Yes, but I don't think it'll help at this precise stage.

Pyron
05-15-2018, 11:27 AM
@tryphon

I redid the stage and i have to drop 1 lamp shade for you do a fire effect cycle,
but i think that did'nt damage the art overall.

Also i used the rocks and the house was plane 2, so gonna be easy overlap it with the grass and etc..
you just need fill the empty space of house bkg with the tiles of second plane bamboo thats is easy
if you liked tell me, because i can do every stage for you, cya

https://i.imgur.com/dFSFUKp.png

Pyron
05-16-2018, 09:13 AM
Stage 1

Like Tryphon said.. we have some colors left.. i think that stage 1-2 can do the same and have the spider in full glory

https://i.imgur.com/TBjUSXc.png
http://screenmania.retrogames.com/arcade/05/arcade_0145_010.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/WQwWqtl.png

Hex colours values
BG1= 0E 0E 00 00 00 44 02 66 02 64 04 88 06 AA 02 4C 08 8E 04 46 04 68 06 8A 06 AC 08 AC 0A CE 0C EE
BG2= 0A 48 00 00 06 24 08 46 08 66 0A 88 0A AA 06 64

Nightwolf
05-16-2018, 12:49 PM
just loving it guys... just loving it...

Pyron
05-17-2018, 09:05 AM
@Tryphon

Stage 5-1 that you ask for
https://i.imgur.com/WHWLbsa.png

Pyron
05-17-2018, 10:05 AM
@Tryphon

Stage 4-1, another that you asked for
https://i.imgur.com/wPvqFo9.png

All of them is very easy to port w/o loss any shade

LinkueiBR
05-17-2018, 11:59 AM
Nice job tryphon/pyron

Can't wait to hear the Soundtrack arrange for the Ym2612 version. Alianger?

Pyron
05-18-2018, 09:34 AM
Stage 1-2, like i said, i used the empty space on pallete to draw the spider man

https://i.imgur.com/ZhMWOCX.png
http://screenmania.retrogames.com/arcade/05/arcade_0145_013.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/w74ljLP.png

Hex Colours Values
BG1= 0E 0E 00 00 00 44 02 66 02 64 04 88 06 AA 02 4C 08 8E 00 46 04 24 04 46 04 68 06 8A 08 AC 0A CE
BG2= 0E 84 00 00 08 66 0A 88 0A AA 08 64 0A 86

Pyron
05-18-2018, 12:05 PM
Stage 1-3

https://i.imgur.com/2iuG3Rq.png
http://screenmania.retrogames.com/arcade/05/arcade_0145_025.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/wNdM6kI.png

Hex Colours Values
BG1= 0E 0E 04 26 02 24 02 46 04 68 06 8A 08 AC 04 48 04 6A 06 8C 08 AE 0A CE
BG2= 08 4C 06 46 08 64 0A 86 0A A8 0A CA 08 46 00 00 00 44 02 66 02 64 04 88
BOSS= 0E 0E 00 00 04 44 06 66 0A AA 0E EE 04 AE 04 CE 00 06 00 0A 00 2C 00 8E 02 68 04 8A 06 AC 0A EE

Chev Chelios
05-18-2018, 07:23 PM
You did a great job Pyron, I really enjoyed the 1-3, I'm enjoying more of the edited colors than the original arcade

Pyron
05-19-2018, 09:35 AM
I can say that the colors can be improved alot with the real hardware because we can look how it really looks
i just did it on my lunch time on my job without my regular stuff but, the import is fit the artwork in the limited md constrains w/o lose shades and i achiv it in almost all cases.
adjust the tones and colors later its just a easy final touch..

Pyron
05-21-2018, 08:51 AM
for curiosity I did a mockup with photos that I found from the arcade and tried to replicate with what I did, well you can see where I can improve later ..

but it is very cool to see an arcade image with more than 100 colors on the arcade screen being represented in the MD with the average of 40 colors without losing any detail in the scenarios and the enemies.

https://i.imgur.com/yiQYZWQ.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/W5Oz7AZ.png

LinkueiBR
05-21-2018, 11:44 AM
for curiosity I did a mockup with photos that I found from the arcade and tried to replicate with what I did, well you can see where I can improve later ..

but it is very cool to see an arcade image with more than 100 colors on the arcade screen being represented in the MD with the average of 40 colors without losing any detail in the scenarios and the enemies.

https://i.imgur.com/yiQYZWQ.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/W5Oz7AZ.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU05DSDKz68

Can't wait to play it on my MD!!!

Chev Chelios
05-21-2018, 06:07 PM
for curiosity I did a mockup with photos that I found from the arcade and tried to replicate with what I did, well you can see where I can improve later ..

but it is very cool to see an arcade image with more than 100 colors on the arcade screen being represented in the MD with the average of 40 colors without losing any detail in the scenarios and the enemies.

https://i.imgur.com/yiQYZWQ.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/W5Oz7AZ.png

The fidelity of Pyron's colors are absurd.

Pyron is it possible to improve the green tone on the enemy's pants or do you use the same Ninja green?

I would love to have this cartridge.

mix256
05-22-2018, 06:19 AM
What does it take to get into the circle of this one to be able to play an early version? :cool:

Pyron
05-22-2018, 09:54 AM
The fidelity of Pyron's colors are absurd.

Pyron is it possible to improve the green tone on the enemy's pants or do you use the same Ninja green?

I would love to have this cartridge.

Is the same, it uses my second pallete, you can see in the previous page, i did 2 versions.. one more accurate and other more saturated to allow green ninja like the arcade. But we can have the green ninja using the free space on the second background pallete and have accurate colors to other enemys, all depends what tryphon gonna set for the project.. in this area i think only philip know details because he works more closer with tryphon and leads what going on in art conversion.

maxxfarras
05-23-2018, 02:58 AM
Long time ago since I posted in this forum, I have been very busy this last years with real life.

Both work of phillip and pyron are excellent and very different aproachs for shinobi sprites. I could not resist to use the Phillips and Pyron work as reference and I have been trying to colorize the sprites using the experience that I got working with the SSF2 redraw hack. I hope no bother you if I post some of my tries here soon.

Maybe Tryphon, Phillip, Pyron or someone else could use my pics as reference, for try to improve them, modify or at least use some ideas for a different aproach. I think all together can try to collaborate a little with the tryphon's amazing project.

Pyron, phillip and tryphon, if you need some extra help with port graphics colors for shinobi please let me know, I will have some more free time in a month or so.

Nice to post in this forums again.

PD: Pyron, thanks a lot for your super hang on color hack, is amazing.

Pyron
05-23-2018, 08:07 AM
Nice see you here again my friend!

I think that any help are welcome, i will love see what you can do

my focus like i said before is only try not lose details in sprites and on bg's
and i think i'm do a good job in this way..
about colors like i said before.. here is just a reference because in mega drive it will look diferent
because that i said that i can improve the colors alot if the game in hands
i has tried use hivepal to color values because looks more closer and with tryphon
convert the values it gonna run w/o problems on MD
instead i see some other photos and clear we can notice some colors that's MD can't produce

Chev Chelios
05-23-2018, 11:52 AM
Long time ago since I posted in this forum, I have been very busy this last years with real life.

Both work of phillip and pyron are excellent and very different aproachs for shinobi sprites. I could not resist to use the Phillips and Pyron work as reference and I have been trying to colorize the sprites using the experience that I got working with the SSF2 redraw hack. I hope no bother you if I post some of my tries here soon.

Maybe Tryphon, Phillip, Pyron or someone else could use my pics as reference, for try to improve them, modify or at least use some ideas for a different aproach. I think all together can try to collaborate a little with the tryphon's amazing project.

Pyron, phillip and tryphon, if you need some extra help with port graphics colors for shinobi please let me know, I will have some more free time in a month or so.

Nice to post in this forums again.

PD: Pyron, thanks a lot for your super hang on color hack, is amazing.

Although not in the forum previously.
I watch your work on Street, it's good to see you here Maxxfarras.
Pyron and Max, i know Tryphon is here, but since the project is in Gamopat, would not it be better to post it there? interaction would be easier.
Well, that's just a question.

tryphon
05-23-2018, 06:04 PM
It's not a problem, I watch this thread everyday, even if I don't comment :)

Thanks for your work Pyron. You can continue if you want, but you're not in a hurry. I am quite busy for the 3 weeks to come so don't expect me to finish the color-test ROM sooner (except unexpected luck).

Please note that this project is still an early alpha for me, I'm not even sure I'll be able to fulfill it (I'll know when I'll see the performances of the engine). So if you don't want to invest more time for now, I'd understand perfectly...

Pyron
05-24-2018, 08:46 AM
@Tryphon i can continue and re-do the work how many times you want for best experience possible, its a pleasure to me.
But please, send me some feedback sometimes when you visit the forum plz =D

mix256
05-24-2018, 09:14 AM
Please note that this project is still an early alpha for me, I'm not even sure I'll be able to fulfill it (I'll know when I'll see the performances of the engine). So if you don't want to invest more time for now, I'd understand perfectly...

What performance issues do you foresee? I wouldn't mind some slowdown every now and then.

Pyron
05-24-2018, 12:32 PM
stage 2-1

https://i.imgur.com/Jxe0QKe.png

Pyron
05-24-2018, 12:56 PM
arcade / mockup
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/03/Shin0000.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/9I1tpwg.png