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View Full Version : Classic Gaming Quarterly takes a look back at the NA launch of the Sega Saturn.



gamevet
12-27-2015, 01:32 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkdygHiqB40

SkdygHiqB40

I purchased my Saturn in May of 1995. My 1st titles for the console were the pack-in Virtua Fighter, Daytona USA, Pebble Beach Golf and Panzer Dragoon Saga. I agree with him, that Clockwork Knight was a weird title for the console launch.

Thief
12-27-2015, 03:12 AM
Well, being a Sega Saturn fanboy, I have no choice but to watch this when I get up after some sleep... bad or good. It's Saturn. Must watch.

Oh, and I purchased Saturn during early launch with Virtua Fighter, Daytona and Sega Steering Wheel. One of the best summer ever. All because of Daytona and Steering Wheel.... Virtua Fighter what?

I still have that crappy GamePro too.

Yes, Clockword Knight totally sucked. I felt ripped off renting that turd.

Panzer Dragoon was a very cool rental.

I also had this cool demo disc with very, very awesome music on it.

Barone
12-27-2015, 09:01 AM
The historical perspective doesn't get much more SOA-biased than this. :(

Thief
12-27-2015, 02:08 PM
^ I didn't care for the first half about the history at all. I thought it was going to be all about talking about the games.



Anyway, I'm at the talking about the games part, and the first part where I feel like I have to stop the video to say something; what is wrong with an overly complicated storyline for a simple Arcade game? Like seriously? What a dumb remark or is he just trying to be funny and cliche with that hemmed in line "Basically just involves you riding a dragon fighting monsters."

What? He's playing a Sega Saturn game hunched over a PC monitor at a desktop like a PC scrub racer?!

The Steering Wheel does not make Daytona USA better?! And Daytona just as bit as fun as Ridge Racer on PS1 instead of leaps and bounds better?!



Overall, I won't be watching this guys videos ever again. Saturn, Genesis or not. These vids aren't my type at all.

Knuckle Duster
12-27-2015, 02:35 PM
The historical perspective doesn't get much more SOA-biased than this. :(

The video is about the North American launch from the perspective of an American.

I'd expect a focus and bias in favor of the CEO who put Sega on the map.

gamevet
12-27-2015, 02:43 PM
There would be no Saturn without the success of the Genesis in the West. SOA put Sega on the map for home consoles. It makes perfect sense to discuss how Sega got to where they were, leading up to the launch of the console in North America.

gamevet
12-27-2015, 02:49 PM
Yeah. Maybe it would make more sense to talk about the licensed Mega-Drive market in South America.:daze:

TrekkiesUnite118
12-27-2015, 03:19 PM
Then why don't you actually post some facts to back up your claims and enlighten the rest of us? Sitting there being snarky isn't helping anything.

gamevet
12-27-2015, 03:24 PM
It doesn't prop up the PlayStation enough for him to like it.

Barone
12-27-2015, 03:31 PM
:rofl:

retrospiel
12-27-2015, 03:45 PM
That is some infuriatingly bad research.

TrekkiesUnite118
12-27-2015, 04:03 PM
:rofl:

Again Barone, being snarky isn't going to make us all suddenly understand where you're coming from or suddenly have all the facts pop into our heads. So are you going to do something actually productive by posting your facts and arguments? Or are you going to continue to do something completely counterproductive and just post snarky and arrogant comments?

retrospiel
12-27-2015, 04:08 PM
So many things, I don't know where to start... The most obvious thing: PlayStation started as a CD-ROM drive for the SNES and was not born out of a missed joint-venture between Sega and Sony.

TrekkiesUnite118
12-27-2015, 04:13 PM
So many things, I don't know where to start... The most obvious thing: PlayStation started as a CD-ROM drive for the SNES and was not born out of a missed joint-venture between Sega and Sony.

From some interviews it was apparently born out of both. How accurate Kalinske's interview is though I don't know. Which is why it would be nice if Barone actually posted some facts and info here instead of just being snarky.

retrospiel
12-27-2015, 04:23 PM
PlayStation launched in late 1994 in Japan. It takes years to develop a new hardware. Impossible to create a bond with Sony of America (who had no hand in creating PlayStation anyway) and come up with a full hardware design between 1992 (launch of the Mega CD in NA) and 1993 (when this was supposed to happen). What's more likely is that Sony had a (semi-)finished hardware design and -assuming what Kalinske claims is at least partially true- wanted Sega to swallow a part of the cost (wtf!!?) and be for them what Namco later were (likely in addition to the actual Namco): a third party developer. Sony obviously knew exactly what the were doing while the fact that Kalinske was naive enough to have the later manager of SCEA close to him, sharing hardware and software strategies with him, is rather telling.

gamevet
12-27-2015, 04:41 PM
You do know that Olaf and SOA had a good relationship?

The SNES based PlayStation prototype that was recently discovered, was in the hands of Olaf, and was supposed to have been destroyed along with all the other units.

Sony Imagesoft was publishing games for the Sega CD and they did so with help from Sega.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/sega-and-sony-almost-teamed-up-on-a-console

retrospiel
12-27-2015, 04:48 PM
That's not what I said though. I said that Kalinske was naive to let Sony in on their strategies when Sony obviously were merely looking for a third party developer with good brand recognition for their own hardware.

gamevet
12-27-2015, 05:05 PM
That's not what I said though. I said that Kalinske was naive to let Sony in on their strategies when Sony obviously were merely looking for a third party developer with good brand recognition for their own hardware.

And how does any of that make the creator of the video wrong?

Sega of America and Sony were working together on games for the CD format and ideas for how to use the tech. Nowhere does he say in the video that the proposed hardware from Olaf and SOA was ever built.

Team Andromeda
12-27-2015, 05:11 PM
You do know that Olaf and SOA had a good relationship?

The SNES based PlayStation prototype that was recently discovered, was in the hands of Olaf, and was supposed to have been destroyed along with all the other units.



Makes zero difference. Sony America never ever had a hardware division, It was SONY Japan that called the R&D shots and developed all the Hardware and SONY Japan was locked into an 'exclusive' deal with NCL and the Snes CD Drive . And speaking of Olaf you do know he left SONY America after a huge bust up with SONY Japan and the pricing of the American PS (which SONY Japan were not happy with) . Tom can lie and spin all he wants, he cocked up and call the 32Bit war all wrong at the end of the day and I just wished he was more honest about it

gamevet
12-27-2015, 05:17 PM
Makes zero difference. Sony America never ever had a hardware division, It was SONY Japan that called the R&D shots and developed all the Hardware and SONY Japan was locked into an 'exclusive' deal with NCL and the Snes CD Drive . And speaking of Olaf you do know he left SONY America after a huge bust up with SONY Japan and the pricing of the American PS (which SONY Japan were not happy with) . Tom can lie and spin all he wants, he cocked up and call the 32Bit war all wrong at the end of the day and I just wished he was more honest about it

Did you watch the video, or read the article? None of that had to do with Olaf and SOA proposing the idea to Sony of Japan. It was Sega of Japan that rejected the idea, not Sony of Japan.

Team Andromeda
12-27-2015, 05:32 PM
Did you watch the video, or read the article? None of that had to do with Olaf and SOA proposing the idea to Sony of Japan. It was Sega of Japan that rejected the idea, not Sony of Japan

SEGA Japan never ever had any dealings with SONY or were ever offered SONY Japan Hardware. True to say they were offered 3DO tech and were 'meant' to be just a hand shake away from being a 3DO M2 developer, were offered the N64 chipset and also the Lynx Hardware too . SEGA Japan were totally caught off guard with the PS chipset and to rush out Saturn improved spec's to try and catch up. If SEGA were offered the SONY chipset 1) they would have kown that SONY was looking to be serious player and 2) what tech were needed to beat SONY Hardware .

SEGA America and Sony America could talk all they want . SONY Japan was locked into a deal with NCL and when that fell through decided to go alone

gamevet
12-27-2015, 05:38 PM
The Sony chipset is a totally different subject.

What was being talked about was the relationship that Kalinski and Olaf had when it came to designing Sega's next console and how they could work together. It was never about Olaf coming up with the final design for the PlayStation. This was just one of the many different proposals by Kalinski to SOJ, that got shot down by them.

As far as I know, Olaf's company was brought in to create hardware and software for Sony's CD add-on. It was when that fell through that he started talking to Sega about a new console.

TrekkiesUnite118
12-27-2015, 05:39 PM
SEGA Japan never ever had any dealings with SONY or were ever offered SONY Japan Hardware. True to say they were offered 3DO tech and were 'meant' to be just a hand shake away from being a 3DO M2 developer, were offered the N64 chipset and also the Lynx Hardware too . SEGA Japan were totally caught off guard with the PS chipset and to rush out Saturn improved spec's to try and catch up. If SEGA were offered the SONY chipset 1) they would have kown that SONY was looking to be serious player and 2) what tech were needed to beat SONY Hardware .

SEGA America and Sony America could talk all they want . SONY Japan was locked into a deal with NCL and when that fell through decided to go alone

Weren't you one of the ones here for years saying that was just a Rumor and that the Saturn's specs were well known and set in stone well before Sony's specs were unveiled?

retrospiel
12-27-2015, 05:39 PM
It was Sega of Japan that rejected the idea, not Sony of Japan.

If there was a hardware involved it would have been the PlayStation and Sega would have ended up a third party developer. - Why would they agree to that? They were at the height of their success. They had worked 10 years to got to the point where they were.

gamevet
12-27-2015, 05:48 PM
If there was a hardware involved it would have been the PlayStation and Sega would have ended up a third party developer. - Why would they agree to that? They were at the height of their success. They had worked 10 years to got to the point where they were.

Again, your opinion of that idea does not make what was said in that video wrong. Kalinski saw hardware as a loss, and a means to sell software. His proposal was that Sony would help pay for hardware costs and that Sega would get all the benefits of being a 1st party publisher. SOJ shot that down though.

Team Andromeda
12-27-2015, 05:51 PM
What was being talked about was the relationship that Kalinski and Olaf had when it came to designing Sega's next console and how they could work together

Sigh... Sony America could talk all it wants SONY Japan does all the Hardware R&D inthe 90's the only corp it ever did a deal with was NCL . Now if it was SONY Japan and SEGA America talking that would be really different.


Weren't you one of the ones here for years saying that was just a Rumor and that the Saturn's specs were well known and set in stone wel

Basic Saturn tech spec's we not changed much in terms of 5 background planes , 32 channels of sound and a Hitachi CPU running at 27 Mhz . Adding in 2 SH-2 CPU's were not part of the plan and SEGA's reaction to the SONY spec's

retrospiel
12-27-2015, 05:55 PM
[Kalinske's] proposal was that Sony would help pay for hardware costs and that Sega would get all the benefits of being a 1st party publisher.

Translation: Sega should help paying for Sony's hardware.

Again: Why would SOJ agree to that? It did NOT work for Nintendo earlier and in 1993 Sega were at the very height of their success. They worked ten years for this.



Adding in 2 SH-2 CPU's were not part of the plan and SEGA's reaction to the SONY spec's

32X uses the same setup so this seems unlikely.

TrekkiesUnite118
12-27-2015, 05:56 PM
Basic Saturn tech spec's we not changed much in terms of 5 background planes , 32 channels of sound and a Hitachi CPU running at 27 Mhz . Adding in 2 SH-2 CPU's were not part of the plan and SEGA's reaction to the SONY spec's

But this was known as early as January of 1994 as Sega of America was inspired to use it in the 32X's design...

Team Andromeda
12-27-2015, 06:05 PM
Why would SOJ agree to that? It did NOT work for Nintendo earlier and in 1993 Sega were at the very height of their success

Tom lies and spin you mean . You really think SONY Japan would take all the Hardware losses itself ?. Sorry SONY wanted the software profits too and that's what NCL didn't like . And you prove to me where SONY Japan (not SONY America) offered SEGA the PS chipset. Lets remember the great Tom said that only the 32X was massmarket not the PS or Saturn . Let's remember Tom 2 page letter prasing the Saturn power how SEGA made the best games and how SEGA would win the 32 Bit war . The lies and bullshit that comes out of this man mouth makes Trip Hawkins look like a saint .


32X uses the same setup so this seems unlikely

SEGA Saturn 1st ever leaked tech spec's was of one CPU, only after the news of the PSX was the Saturn down to have 2 SH-2's. SEGA Japan insiders also say the VDP 1 was improved too

Team Andromeda
12-27-2015, 06:06 PM
But this was known as early as January of 1994 as Sega of America was inspired to use it in the 32X's design

Long before that time the likes of EDGE was reporting of SONY new multi media machine/console. In fact SONY held a press conf in December 1993 to tell the world of the PS-X

TrekkiesUnite118
12-27-2015, 06:22 PM
Long before that time the likes of EDGE was reporting of SONY new multi media machine/console. In fact SONY held a press conf in December 1993 to tell the world of the PS-X

Yet Sega of America was aware of the Saturn having 2 SH-2s less than a month later, and not only that it appeared to be something that had been set in stone for a while for them to see it as such a good idea and not something rushed out the door without thought.

The afterthought in the Saturn's design seems to be more aimed at VDP1's quirkiness and the fragmented memory.

Knuckle Duster
12-27-2015, 06:54 PM
Oh boy, this bullshit tangent again.

http://threadbombing.com/data/media/29/fthisthread.gif

Lan Di
12-27-2015, 07:39 PM
Wow, all this Kalinske hate. Tom Kalinske was no saint by any stretch of the imagination, but it was through his leadership and ingenuity that made Sega a mainstream household name outside of the EU and Brazil and Japan. The EU had Virgin, and Brazil had Tech Toy. Kalinske filled the void for the rest if the world. SOA's branding and marketing style transcended all demographics and other regions adopted the SOA style of marketing. The Saturn's failure is not Kalinke's, that failure was both Hayayo Nakayama's and Bernie Stolar's fault. Remember the Working Designs fiasco? The early launch mandated by Nakayama san? The mis-management of Capcom and SNK fighters? No RAM cart or video card for the rest of the world. Think about it, if Sega, SNK and Capcom would have made an exclusive deal the Saturn would have had a chance.

Thief
12-27-2015, 09:05 PM
Oh boy, this bullshit tangent again.

http://threadbombing.com/data/media/29/fthisthread.gif

What?! Things are just getting good.

https://media.giphy.com/media/RHiD0K65NxxLO/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

CGQuarterly
12-27-2015, 09:35 PM
Makes me sad to see one of my videos causing this much fighting.

retrospiel, I'm sorry you feel that this episode was poorly researched. I assure you that it was very well researched. The "historical perspective" section, or whatever you want to call it, was framed the way that it was because it told a compelling story, but I do not believe that I said anything that was untrue, nor do I think that I blatantly omitted any key information. As someone else already pointed out in this thread, I am an American, talking about the launches of these consoles from an American perspective.

If someone doesn't like the subjective things that I say (like Panzer Dragoon having too much plot for an arcade game) then that's fine; my style isn't going to be for everyone. That isn't me trying to be funny at all, it's me giving my opinion. At the end of the day, Panzer Dragoon is an arcade rail shooter and I *personally* want to hear about plot in that game just as much as I would in Space Harrier. As far as the rest of your post, I was playing the game at my desk because I need to run the Saturn through a Framemeister to capture the footage, and that is the only TV in my office that accepts HDMI, and a desktop is the most comfortable place to set up both the Mission Stick (Panzer Dragoon) and the Arcade Racer (Daytona USA). Would you have preferred that I was sitting in my lounge chair with those controllers sitting on my lap? And speaking of the Arcade Racer, while it does wonders for some of Sega's later arcade racers on the Saturn, it is shit for Daytona USA.

gamevet
12-27-2015, 09:55 PM
Sigh... Sony America could talk all it wants SONY Japan does all the Hardware R&D inthe 90's the only corp it ever did a deal with was NCL . Now if it was SONY Japan and SEGA America talking that would be really different.



It was Sony of Japan and Sega of America talking, through Sony of America.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/sega-and-sony-almost-teamed-up-on-a-console


Sony came to us after they had been rebuffed by Nintendo," Kalinske recalled. “They had wanted Nintendo to use some technology that they had, and Nintendo instead chose to work with Philips. That really annoyed Sony. Olaf Olafsson [Sony Electronic Publishing President] and Micky Schulhof [President of Sony America] came to my office and said, 'Tom, we really don’t like Nintendo. You don’t like Nintendo. We have this little studio down in Santa Monica [Imagesoft] working on video games, we don’t know what to do with it, we’d like Sega’s help in training our guys. And we think the optical disc will be the best format.


Kalinske agreed with Sony's executives and proposed a partnership to finance a small developer called Digital Pictures, who eventually created Night Trap, Sewer Shark, and Supreme Warrior for Sega-CD.


Sega of America and Sony were both convinced that the next platform had to use optical discs. We had been working on this CD-ROM attachment to the Genesis, which we knew really wasn’t adequate, but it taught us how to make games on this format," said Kalinske. "We had the Sony guys and our engineers in the United States come up with specs for what this next optical-based hardware system would be. And with these specs, Olafsson, Schulhof and I went to Japan, and we met with Sony’s Ken Kutaragi. He said it was a great idea, and as we all lose money on hardware, let's jointly market a single system – the Sega/Sony hardware system – and whatever loss we make, we split that loss.

Kalinske took his proposal to Sega's Board of Directors, who promptly vetoed the idea.

Next, we went to [Sega president] Nakayama and the Board at Sega, and they basically turned me down. They said, 'that’s a stupid idea, Sony doesn’t know how to make hardware. They don’t know how to make software either. Why would we want to do this?' That is what caused the division between Sega and Sony and caused Sony to become our competitor and launch its own hardware platform." 

That was only the beginning of the schism between Kalinske and his superiors at Sega of Japan. Sony poached Sega senior executives, including Kalinske's second-in-command Steve Race, to develop the Sony PlayStation. Sega moved forward on its own with the Saturn and Kalinske didn't believe the system would succeed, but Sega of Japan was looking to spoiler Sony's efforts with the console's launch.

Olaf was in charge of Sony's CD projects long before the NCL deal.

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/1991-03-24/olaf-olafsson-sonys-jack-of-all-media



Olafsson joined Sony in 1984 as a researcher for a San Jose (Calif.) unit that sells CD-ROM drives and other computer peripherals, mainly to other manufacturers for use in their own machines. Since 1989, he has also worked as a vice-president for special projects for Sony USA, reporting to Schulhof in New York. There, he helped plan the new company while evaluating new technologies and investment opportunities.

With Electronic Publishing, he'll be competing with IBM, Time Warner Inc., and several other big companies that have recently entered the market for multimedia home entertainment. Olafsson has spent the past few weeks sounding out Sony artists about licensing their images and sounds for use in the new technology. A good number, both with Sony Music and Columbia Pictures, have shown "strong interest" in the new media, he says.

Thief
12-27-2015, 10:07 PM
If someone doesn't like the subjective things that I say (like Panzer Dragoon having too much plot for an arcade game) then that's fine; my style isn't going to be for everyone. That isn't me trying to be funny at all, it's me giving my opinion. At the end of the day, Panzer Dragoon is an arcade rail shooter and I *personally* want to hear about plot in that game just as much as I would in Space Harrier. As far as the rest of your post, I was playing the game at my desk because I need to run the Saturn through a Framemeister to capture the footage, and that is the only TV in my office that accepts HDMI, and a desktop is the most comfortable place to set up both the Mission Stick (Panzer Dragoon) and the Arcade Racer (Daytona USA). Would you have preferred that I was sitting in my lounge chair with those controllers sitting on my lap? And speaking of the Arcade Racer, while it does wonders for some of Sega's later arcade racers on the Saturn, it is shit for Daytona USA.



^ Having lore in the simplest games can still be very important. Especially to a kid back in the day that couldn't buy many games and only replayed a few over and over. And where imagination of a well thought out world and lore greatly add to enjoyment of anything, even screwing with a hot chick "Here, babe, slap this Tifa costume on while I break out ma big sword." See? :p ... "Cloud why's your sword so small." :confused: "Oh, I see, it not powered up yet. ... ahem. Wise from your gwave!"

Even on the dedicated Gradius STG forums (GameStone) for a simple Arcade style shooter series, folks are very interested in the lore and story of the games and how they are connected. Because yeah, playing these games over and over should make you wonder about that. Some of us don't just play a game for a few minutes then move on to the next review.



Thanks for answering my other questions, but no way can the Steering Wheel be shit for Daytona because it make it feel more like the arcade and that you're playing a racer.

And again, no way Ridge Racer comes close to Daytona USA. No contest. Opinion or not. Ridge Racer 1 was a stop gag maybe worthy of a rental. Not an entire summer of fun like I had with Daytona USA with Steering Wheel during early launch making me feel like I had the Arcade of my fave racer at home.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaBUeINW_3s

Yes, this video says it all.

CGQuarterly
12-27-2015, 11:09 PM
^ Having lore in the simplest games can still be very important. Especially to a kid back in the day that couldn't buy many games and only replayed a few over and over. And where imagination of a well thought out world and lore greatly add to enjoyment of anything, even screwing with a hot chick "Here, babe, slap this Tifa costume on while I break out ma big sword." See? :p ... "Cloud why's your sword so small." :confused: "Oh, I see, it not powered up yet. ... ahem. Wise from your gwave!"

Even on the dedicated Gradius STG forums (GameStone) for a simple Arcade style shooter series, folks are very interested in the lore and story of the games and how they are connected. Because yeah, playing these games over and over should make you wonder about that. Some of us don't just play a game for a few minutes then move on to the next review.

It just comes down to personal taste. I have never been one who was interested in the story in most games. To me, I play an RPG or adventure game if I want to get immersed in a story. I play a game like Panzer Dragoon because I want arcade action. As to your last sentence, I'm sorry if you feel as though that's what I'm doing. I make these videos because I really love games, particularly the games of my youth and young adulthood. I am not some YouTuber who just cranks out a review and then moves on to the next thing. I struggle to upload even once per month because I spend ridiculous amounts of time on each video.


Thanks for answering my other questions, but no way can the Steering Wheel be shit for Daytona because it make it feel more like the arcade and that you're playing a racer.

The Arcade Racer just doesn't feel right to me when playing Daytona USA (again, my subjective opinion). I have spent tons of time playing the arcade version (my buddy owns two of them), and in my opinion the Arcade Racer wheel does not make the Saturn port feel more like the arcade port. As I said in my last post, that wheel can be a godsend for some of the Saturn's later arcade racers, but for Daytona I'll take the standard controller.


And again, no way Ridge Racer comes close to Daytona USA. No contest. Opinion or not. Ridge Racer 1 was a stop gag maybe worthy of a rental. Not an entire summer of fun like I had with Daytona USA with Steering Wheel during early launch making me feel like I had the Arcade of my fave racer at home.

When talking about the launch of the Saturn, the obvious comparison to be made regarding Daytona USA is to Ridge Racer, as they were both home ports of popular arcade racers. I happen to think that they are both excellent games. Much like yourself, I would take Daytona USA over Ridge Racer any day of the week, but I am not going to say something like "Ridge Racer doesn't even come close to Daytona USA" because in doing so I would be implying that Ridge Racer is not a good game, which I don't believe to be the case.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaBUeINW_3s

Yes, this video says it all.

I think that video says more about Kaz Hirai's total lack of charisma, and less about how people feel about Ridge Racer.

Thief
12-27-2015, 11:33 PM
You don't even play Daytona with analog controls...

And lore is not just story. It's the shape of the world and it's creatures, buildings and vehicles. And Panzer word is very rich. Why it ended up as an RPG for the third game.

And I still believe Ridge Racer on PS1 aged much worse. The only Ridge Racer games I cared for back in the day were the last two released for PS1.

And if you spend that much time playing, you really didn't say much about these games... but then again I'm not sure what audience you're targeting. Not me. That's all I know. But don't worry. I don't watch much YouTube (I still don't have a YT account). And don't take offense either. Not worth it.

CGQuarterly
12-27-2015, 11:59 PM
And if you spend that much time playing, you really didn't say much about these games... but then again I'm not sure what audience you're targeting. Not me. That's all I know. But don't worry. I don't watch much YouTube (I still don't have a YT account). And don't take offense either. Not worth it.

I try to keep the coverage of each game to around 3 minutes or less. They are not meant to be exhaustive reviews. I am trying to touch on each game as part of telling the story of the launch of the system.

The audience I am targeting is myself. I make the kind of videos that I enjoy watching. Obviously a lot of other people also enjoy them, which makes me happy. It's a bummer that you're not one of them, but different strokes for different folks. I only responded to your initial post because you seemed to have a pretty strong negative reaction to the show and I thought I would respond (and only even found this thread because retrospiel left a comment on the vid itself). I absolutely welcome constructive criticism because it is my goal to make the best quality videos that I can (and that includes their factual accuracy), but with an increase in the popularity of my channel comes an unfortunate increase of criticism that isn't particularly "constructive".

retrospiel
12-28-2015, 12:13 AM
retrospiel, I'm sorry you feel that this episode was poorly researched. I assure you that it was very well researched.

It's nice to see you posting here. I LOVED your Genny, PCE/TG-16, PSX launch videos - they were truly brilliant. The more I am dissapointed with this one.

What ruins this new video is the introduction. And perhaps I used the wrong word in this context: The problem is less the research but more the amount of misinformation going around these days that makes an honest attempt at retelling what actually happened impossible. There must be hundreds of interviews with Kalinske by now and he not only plays into the role interviewers have put him in over the past ten years but even actively tries to tilt their already skewed perspective of things further towards his persona.

CGQuarterly
12-28-2015, 01:29 AM
It's nice to see you posting here. I LOVED your Genny, PCE/TG-16, PSX launch videos - they were truly brilliant. The more I am dissapointed with this one.

What ruins this new video is the introduction. And perhaps I used the wrong word in this context: The problem is less the research but more the amount of misinformation going around these days that makes an honest attempt at retelling what actually happened impossible. There must be hundreds of interviews with Kalinske by now and he not only plays into the role interviewers have put him in over the past ten years but even actively tries to tilt their already skewed perspective of things further towards his persona.

Firstly, thank you for your positive comments about my other launch vids. Regarding this video, I would say first and foremost that there is no way to tell this story that isn't going to elicit a negative response from some folks. It is a controversial subject and there is no way to frame it without painting someone as the bad guy. I fully agree that there is a ton of misinformation on the net not just about this particular topic, but about gaming history in general. Unfortunately, information was not preserved as it was not seen as important. That being said, I do not believe that any of the information contained in my video is incorrect. Yes, the video is sympathetic to Kalinske but that is due to my perspective as both an an American gamer and as someone who had a Genesis in its heyday.

Edit: At the end of the day, I am doing the best job that I can with every video. Each one is a learning experience, and this one was never going to be easy due to the sensitive nature of the subject matter. It is disappointing for me that anyone would watch one of my videos and come away thinking that I was doing a less-than-thorough job with either the historical research or with the time that I spend with each game. But at the end of the day these are my videos and are colored by my opinions.

Thief
12-28-2015, 01:35 AM
...but with an increase in the popularity of my channel comes an unfortunate increase of criticism that isn't particularly "constructive".

Yeah, I sometimes read some crazy comments on YouTube too. You just have to have a sense of humour about it there, and you'll be fine. ... Well, it's what I do. I laugh everything off... if not, I go party to get in the right mood, then laugh everything off.

But cheers and good luck. Because making videos for myself is exactly what I'd do too... then laugh all the critics, constructive or not, off.

gamevet
12-28-2015, 02:30 AM
Firstly, thank you for your positive comments about my other launch vids. Regarding this video, I would say first and foremost that there is no way to tell this story that isn't going to elicit a negative response from some folks. It is a controversial subject and there is no way to frame it without painting someone as the bad guy. I fully agree that there is a ton of misinformation on the net not just about this particular topic, but about gaming history in general. Unfortunately, information was not preserved as it was not seen as important. That being said, I do not believe that any of the information contained in my video is incorrect. Yes, the video is sympathetic to Kalinske but that is due to my perspective as both an an American gamer and as someone who had a Genesis in its heyday.

Edit: At the end of the day, I am doing the best job that I can with every video. Each one is a learning experience, and this one was never going to be easy due to the sensitive nature of the subject matter. It is disappointing for me that anyone would watch one of my videos and come away thinking that I was doing a less-than-thorough job with either the historical research or with the time that I spend with each game. But at the end of the day these are my videos and are colored by my opinions.

I thought that the video was very well done. You took the time to show segments of magazine articles from the time, with each subject that you had brought up. People always bring up how Sony of Japan was pissed off about how Nintendo had brushed Sony aside during their agreement for the Nintendo CD, but they never consider that there was a North American side of Sony that was also involved, and that they had moved towards working with Sega to establish an idea about how to use CD technology for gaming.

Team Andromeda
12-28-2015, 11:32 AM
Yet Sega of America was aware of the Saturn having 2 SH-2s less than a month late

Well looking over that was after SEGA had found out about the PS-X. I'm not so sure for a few reasons namely most SEGA insiders all said the 2nd CPU was a afterthought and that they would be no way SEGA would know hit it's 1994 date as it was playing chaos with SEGA development systems and game development and also I rememeber SEGA West even claming Mars was more powerful than the Saturn at it's early stage . I would put to you that untill SEGA found out about the PS-X, The Saturn was only ever going to have 1 main SH-2 CPU.


Olaf was in charge of Sony's CD projects long before the NCL deal

Try no . I'm sure even to this very SONY America has no R&D what so ever and in the early 90's . SONY computer/console divsion was tiny and based in SONY Japan Music HQ and not able to work on more than one major product at a time . It always been SONY Japan that does the R&D and SONY Japan was locked into a deal to produced the PS for NCL. SEGA never used SONY for the Mega CD audio or CD Drive. After NCL made SONY look a laughing stock , SONY decided it would go alone and I have interview with both Phil Harrison and Ken that back that up


It was Sony of Japan and Sega of America talking, through Sony of America

Please no more lies and Spin from Tom . Becasue that man just talks bullshit and I do get board of his lies and spin . You show any interview and I mean any interview from any member of SONY Japan that paints Tom's picture out . Never mind that any interview with Sega, Bayless or Joe Miller (SEGA America key tech guys) never ever talk of them being offered SONY Tech; If that was the case they would have been no need to go for the SH-2 when the call came from Japan to make what would become the 32X, they could have just gone for SONY PS and also tell SEGA Japan don't worry about the 3DO or Jaguar , worry more about SONY tech .

gamevet
12-28-2015, 01:36 PM
Try no . I'm sure even to this very SONY America has no R&D what so ever and in the early 90's . SONY computer/console divsion was tiny and based in SONY Japan Music HQ and not able to work on more than one major product at a time . It always been SONY Japan that does the R&D and SONY Japan was locked into a deal to produced the PS for NCL. SEGA never used SONY for the Mega CD audio or CD Drive. After NCL made SONY look a laughing stock , SONY decided it would go alone and I have interview with both Phil Harrison and Ken that back that up.

Try yes. He was the guy that was marketing Sony CD drives for home computers, as well as software. He was the guy behind Sony Imagesoft that worked out deals with Sega to publish games on the Sega CD. He was involved with R&D for CD software development.




Please no more lies and Spin from Tom . Becasue that man just talks bullshit and I do get board of his lies and spin . You show any interview and I mean any interview from any member of SONY Japan that paints Tom's picture out . Never mind that any interview with Sega, Bayless or Joe Miller (SEGA America key tech guys) never ever talk of them being offered SONY Tech; If that was the case they would have been no need to go for the SH-2 when the call came from Japan to make what would become the 32X, they could have just gone for SONY PS and also tell SEGA Japan don't worry about the 3DO or Jaguar , worry more about SONY tech .

Why would he even bother to tell the story, if it wasn't true?

Why would Miller talk about it. He's always asked questions about the 32X and other hardware that he was involved in. What Kalinski was talking about was a concept for what a next-gen CD based system should be. Hell, for all we know it was a very on the fly conversation with his engineers that had happened. He talked about proposed specs and nothing more. I very much doubt that he had Miller drawing up schematics with CPUs and graphics chips, when it was nothing more than an idea that was being presented to Sony of Japan and Sega of Japan.

http://segaretro.org/Sega


Mickey Schulhoff and Olaf Olafsson of Sony spoke with Kalinske about the possibility of a joint venture between the two companies to pool resources and create the next generation of consoles, though the plan was vetoed by Sega of Japan before it could fully get off the ground.

You can read the whole interview here: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-02-23-is-sega-the-next-atari

All I know is that where ever Kalinske has played a big part of a company, he's had success. His Knowledge Universe company was merged with Leapfrog and now the company is one of the biggest childrens educational toy companies in the world. He always made good decisions, and once SOJ stopped listening to him, he packed up a left.

Tower of Power
12-28-2015, 03:56 PM
Great job on the videos, I think yours are some of the highest quality gaming videos on YouTube, and I really enjoy watching them. It's too bad some people just don't "get it," and come in with a negative agenda. I don't know if there's a language barrier or something. Sometimes I feel like we're dealing with people from a different dimension or something with a slightly different version of reality...

Team Andromeda
12-28-2015, 06:16 PM
Try yes. He was the guy that was marketing Sony CD drives for home computers, as well as software. He was the guy behind Sony Imagesoft that worked out deals with Sega to publish games on the Sega CD

That's not Hardware R&D and deep down you know . SONY Japan were the ones that would decide such things and they choose NCL .


Why would he even bother to tell the story, if it wasn't true?

One would have thought that SEGA Japan was offered the PS-X chipset . Then Scott Bayless or Joe Miller would have come out and talked about it and how it was one of the biggest mistakes SEGA ever made, for starters . Never mind telling SEGA Japan not worry about 3DO or Jaguar tech , but worry more about SONY tech as it beats what 3DO,Atari and us at SEGA can offer


I very much doubt that he had Miller drawing up schematics with CPUs and graphics chips, when it was nothing more than an idea that was being presented to Sony of Japan and Sega of Japan.

SONY in total secret kept the PS Project going .


You can read the whole interview here:

It's all Tom. Shows me any interview and I mean any interview from any memeber of SONY Japan that backs up Tom's claims . Becasue he's the king of spin . He now talks down the Saturn and games like Virtual Fighter wasn't saying that at the time and forget the Saturn and PS, the 32X was going to be the mass market 32 bit system .

Barone
12-28-2015, 07:12 PM
It's nice to see you posting here. I LOVED your Genny, PCE/TG-16, PSX launch videos - they were truly brilliant. The more I am dissapointed with this one.

What ruins this new video is the introduction. And perhaps I used the wrong word in this context: The problem is less the research but more the amount of misinformation going around these days that makes an honest attempt at retelling what actually happened impossible. There must be hundreds of interviews with Kalinske by now and he not only plays into the role interviewers have put him in over the past ten years but even actively tries to tilt their already skewed perspective of things further towards his persona.
Same here. I had really enjoyed the previous ones.

Even from an American-only perspective, I think it's simply unfair to ignore most of the SOA's missteps and put all the burden on SOJ like the video intro did.

Team Andromeda
12-29-2015, 07:16 AM
Even from an American-only perspective, I think it's simply unfair to ignore most of the SOA's missteps and put all the burden on SOJ like the video intro did

SEGA Japan made some screw ups (but all corps do) Hardware wise the Saturn was really hurt by no 3d transparent effects , the tools should have been better and SEGA Japan didn't really see how much Sonic was a big deal and how they really needed a proper Sonic game early in (or just to make it clear one was coming) . Plus SEGA Japan should have done more to get Square on board the moment they left NCL...

SEGA West made countless screw ups though and TOM needs to take a lot of the blame .... He quite clearly didn't believe in the high price of the Saturn or the PS and that they wouldn't sell in any great numbers in 1995 and much of 1996 and went for the price war A huge mistake. didn't get his In-House Teams ready for next gen productions STI weren't up too it , SEGA Multi media studio was just in a mess at that time and couldn't a decent Mega CD title never mind a AAA Saturn 32 bit title.

Splitting SEGA PR, SEGA development Teams and SEGA's fans between either the 32X or Saturn was the biggest screw up of the 32 bit age and it really cost SEGA. Plus Tom on the one hand ripps into the N64 for Carts (forgetting the 32X was Cart) he then also makes out the N64 wasn't real lol, how SEGA had the best tech and In-House teams and then says only SEGA can make VF series and on... Only now to make out VF was crap, like SEGA tech and so .


The man lies and spins all the time and of course was so good that no-one in the industry came after him... Not SONY, Not NCL and no MS too . Nice one TOM lol

gamevet
12-29-2015, 11:34 PM
That's not Hardware R&D and deep down you know . SONY Japan were the ones that would decide such things and they choose NCL .

It's R&D based around using the CD format, which the North American branch was responsible for at the time. Sony of Japan didn't have any interest in videogames, but Sony's Ken Kutarugi did.

All of this happened after Nintendo announced that they were partnering with Philips for the SNES-CD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNES-CD


The relationship between Sony and Nintendo started when Sony engineer Ken Kutaragi became interested in working with video games after seeing his daughter play games on Nintendo's Famicom video game console. He took on a contract at Sony for developing hardware that would drive the audio subsystem of Nintendo's next console, the Super NES. Kutaragi secretly developed the chip, known as the Sony SPC 700. As Sony was uninterested in the video game business, most of his superiors did not approve of the project, but Kutaragi found support in Sony executive Norio Ohga and the project was allowed to continue. The success of the project spurred Nintendo to enter into a partnership with Sony to develop both a CD-ROM add-on for the Super NES and a Sony-branded console that would play both SNES games, as well as titles released for the new SNES-CD format.

Development of the format started in 1988, when Nintendo signed a contract with Sony to produce a CD-ROM add-on for the SNES. After several years of development, Sony introduced a standalone console at 1991's summer Consumer Electronics Show called the "Play Station." The system was to be compatible with existing SNES titles as well as titles released for the SNES-CD format. However, due to licensing disagreements with Sony, Nintendo announced that it had formed an alliance with Sony's rival Philips to produce the SNES-CD add-on.

So, a year later Sony announces a partnership with Sega, to create content and publish games on Sega's consoles, with a key focus on supporting their upcoming Sega CD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Imagesoft


On May 20, 1992, Sega of America and Sony Electronic Publishing announced a partnership to create content for Sega's consoles under the direction of Imagesoft.[5] Besides Sega's cartridge-based Genesis and GameGear consoles the partnership targeted the upcoming Sega CD peripheral.[6] Among the first titles released for Sega's consoles after the announcement are Sewer Shark and Hook. Sewer Shark, initially released exclusively to Sega CD, is a rail-shooter that years earlier had been shelved as part of the ill-fated Control-Vision platform. The Hook video games are tie-ins to the Spielberg feature film Hook that premiered in December 1991 and was produced by Sony owned TriStar Pictures. Ports of the video game for Sega platforms are based on the SNES game published earlier by Imagesoft. The Sega CD version was enhanced with better cut scenes with voice actors and digital stills and featured music from the film soundtrack.[7]




One would have thought that SEGA Japan was offered the PS-X chipset . Then Scott Bayless or Joe Miller would have come out and talked about it and how it was one of the biggest mistakes SEGA ever made, for starters . Never mind telling SEGA Japan not worry about 3DO or Jaguar tech , but worry more about SONY tech as it beats what 3DO,Atari and us at SEGA can offer.

It never got to that stage. He's talking about Sony Imagesoft, Ken Katuragi and Sega of America proposing a console based around CD technology to Sony of Japan. Sony of Japan agreed to give it a try and it was shot down by Sega's board of directors. This more than likely happened shortly after Nintendo announced (June 1991) that they were cutting their alliance with Sony for a CD attachment for the SNES. Sega of Japan doesn't think Sony has any business in hardware, so Sony Imagesoft decides to partner with Sega to bring software to their consoles instead. Ken's PlayStation team didn't become official until 1993.

You should check out the book Opening up the Xbox. It covers how Seamus Blackley and his team proposed the Xbox videogame hardware to Bill Gates. They didn't have hardware ready to show him. They pretty much put together a proof of concept template to introduce to Bill, with hopes of getting approval to roll the project forward.




SONY in total secret kept the PS Project going .


It's all Tom. Shows me any interview and I mean any interview from any memeber of SONY Japan that backs up Tom's claims . Becasue he's the king of spin . He now talks down the Saturn and games like Virtual Fighter wasn't saying that at the time and forget the Saturn and PS, the 32X was going to be the mass market 32 bit system.

It's more like Sony started working on their own console, after being shot down by Nintendo and Sega for a partnership in hardware.

Why would Sony of Japan talk about a deal that never happened? The deal with Nintendo was in full swing, with Sony pouring resources behind the project, while the Sega thing was nothing more than a proof of concept template that got shot down.

Team Andromeda
12-30-2015, 01:45 AM
It's R&D based around using the CD format, which the North American branch was responsible for at the time. Sony of Japan didn't have any interest in videogames, but Sony's Ken Kutarugi did.

Sony America had no R&D what so ever. What part of that do you not understand ? . And sorry its wrong to make out that SONY Japan had no intertest in videogames .


So, a year later Sony announces a partnership with Sega, to create content and publish games on Sega's consoles, with a key focus on supporting their upcoming Sega CD

Yeah by porting Hasbro FMV games . SONY also published games on other formats and like Phil Harrion said more or less used the likes of SEGA to get their foot in the door. I remember MS saying that they had no plans for a console and were all behind the DC, all that while having not 1, but 2 console projects in development.


It never got to that stage. He's talking about Sony Imagesoft, Ken Katuragi and Sega of America proposing a console based around CD technology to Sony of Japan

Where the proof to back that up . I want to see interviews and quotes from SONY Japan staff , not bullshit from TOM .


It's more like Sony started working on their own console, after being shot down by Nintendo

Try after being shot down by NCL . SONY didn't want to work with anybody else and went alone .


The deal with Nintendo was in full swing, with Sony pouring resources behind the project,

And yet you make out SONY Japan wasn't interested in consoles . Make your mind up

gamevet
12-30-2015, 02:46 AM
Sony America had no R&D what so ever. What part of that do you not understand ? . And sorry its wrong to make out that SONY Japan had no intertest in videogames.

No, you're trying to exclude software R&D from hardware R&D. Olaf was appointed with finding a use for Sony's CD drives for PCs. He was responsible for R&D behind finding uses for their new CD hardware for PC.

The article that I'd posted talked about Sony not being interested in Kataragi's sound chip that he had developed for the SNES, until he had found someone within the company that had backed him. It also noted that Sony had no interest in videogames.


The relationship between Sony and Nintendo started when Sony engineer Ken Kutaragi became interested in working with video games after seeing his daughter play games on Nintendo's Famicom video game console. He took on a contract at Sony for developing hardware that would drive the audio subsystem of Nintendo's next console, the Super NES. Kutaragi secretly developed the chip, known as the Sony SPC 700. As Sony was uninterested in the video game business, most of his superiors did not approve of the project, but Kutaragi found support in Sony executive Norio Ohga and the project was allowed to continue. The success of the project spurred Nintendo to enter into a partnership with Sony to develop both a CD-ROM add-on for the Super NES and a Sony-branded console that would play both SNES games, as well as titles released for the new SNES-CD format.



Yeah by porting Hasbro FMV games . SONY also published games on other formats and like Phil Harrion said more or less used the likes of SEGA to get their foot in the door. I remember MS saying that they had no plans for a console and were all behind the DC, all that while having not 1, but 2 console projects in development.

They weren't just porting Hasbro FMV games. They backed Digital Pictures Studios with Sega and were a part of the (at the time) exclusive release of Sewer Shark for the Sega CD. There's a list of games that Sony Imagesoft was involved in, in the link I had provided above.

I suggest that you read the book that I was talking about. There was no 2 console projects, like you are suggesting. The DC project was a means for MS to sell Windows CE to developers and for use in low memory handheld devices.



Where the proof to back that up . I want to see interviews and quotes from SONY Japan staff , not bullshit from TOM.

The timeline matches up. Like I had said above: Why would anyone at Sony talk about a project that never left the ground?




Try after being shot down by NCL . SONY didn't want to work with anybody else and went alone.

No, Sony didn't go it alone. They reached out to Sega after being humiliated by Nintendo. They made a deal to publish titles for Sega consoles in 1992, 11 months after they were brought to shame by Nintendo in that 1991 CES.




And yet you make out SONY Japan wasn't interested in consoles . Make your mind up

They weren't interested in videogames, until they had noticed the success that they had with the sound chip that Ken had designed for the SNES.

Team Andromeda
12-31-2015, 02:08 AM
Try yes. He was the guy that was marketing Sony CD drives for home computers, as well as software.

He was the guy selling SONY Japan designed and built products . I'm not sure that even now SONY America has no R&D what so ever for hardware products. And SONY Japan was locked into a deal with NCL.


They weren't just porting Hasbro FMV games. They backed Digital Pictures Studios with Sega and were a part of the (at the time) exclusive release of Sewer Shark for the Sega CD

Sewer Shark lol another ex Hasbro game . Other than Ground Zero texas I can't think of many if any exclusive built from the ground up Mega CD games from SONY. So much for backing the format and SEGA *rolls eyes*


Why would anyone at Sony talk about a project that never left the ground

So that's a no then ?. Why did SONY even show us the pictures of the Snes CD-rom ? Why does tom still talk about all the SEGA projects that never left the ground and where no-one from SONY Japan or any developer backs TOM bullshit claims up .


No, Sony didn't go it alone.

I think you find they went it alone and that's why we got the PSX


They weren't interested in videogames, until they had noticed the success that they had with the sound chip that Ken had designed for the SNES

I think SONY always been looking at the video game indusrty for a very long time . It tried it's hand with the Philips CDI and also the MS-X. I think the Nintendo gameboy really made SONY take note and where SONY Japan thought that was a product that they should have made.


I suggest that you read the book that I was talking about. There was no 2 console projects, like you are suggesting

I think you need to get your facts straight . Seamus Blackley confirmed that they was not one but 2 consoles projects in development at MS and how both of which faced a massive uphill battle to get the green light to go into full production . This after Bill Gates had a lovely video link at SEGA Japan and where MS said they were happy with the DC and that they had no console projects in development

gamevet
12-31-2015, 02:36 PM
He was the guy selling SONY Japan designed and built products . I'm not sure that even now SONY America has no R&D what so ever for hardware products. And SONY Japan was locked into a deal with NCL.

Like I said before, you need to quit assuming R&D is just about hardware. Olaf had one of the 200 working prototype NCL Play Stations. He was involved with getting software developed for the platform.

Again, Sony was not locked in with NCL, once the announcement that they were going with Philips for their CD. Sony could have sued NCL for a breach of contract, if they had chosen to do so.

Sega and Sony funded Digital Pictures games for the Sega CD. The Hasbro Nemo story isn't relevant here.




Sewer Shark lol another ex Hasbro game . Other than Ground Zero texas I can't think of many if any exclusive built from the ground up Mega CD games from SONY. So much for backing the format and SEGA *rolls eyes*

Sony didn't build any of that. 98% of the titles published by Sony are developed by 2nd/3rd parties. Sony of America had to create 989 Studios just to get their own sports titles made for the Playstation.

And who cares if it was exclusive, or not? Sony was backing the Sega CD from 1992-1994.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Imagesoft


ESPN Sunday Night Football
Chuck Rock
Mary Shelly's Frankenstein
ESPN National Hockey Night
Braum Stoker's Dracula (developed by Psygnosis.Hmmm...)
Mickey Mania
3 Ninjas Kickback

Let's look at what Tom had to say about it in a Sega-16 interview from 2006.

http://www.sega-16.com/2006/07/interview-tom-kalinske/


Sega-16: To this day, gamers have a love/hate relationship with the Sega CD, and unfortunately many don’t bother to look past the full-motion games in its library, where there really is a lot of quality software. In your opinion, what did you think was genuinely needed to make it a success?

Tom Kalinske: That’s a good question, and you have to remember that this was the very beginning of the optical medium in terms of a video game experience, and none of us knew what the hell we were doing! I mean, it was really an experiment, a great learning experience. One of the interesting things to me is that one of our strongest partners in developing for that platform was Sony. And Sony didn’t have a hardware division (at least for video games) at the time. They had a software division run by Olaf Olafsson, who was a great partner to us. They spent lots of money developing games for the Sega CD (probably more than we did), we gave them technical help – a lot of it; we loaned them people, and there was really this wonderful collaborative effort. We each benefited from each other’s work, and I think that’s one of the things that has been forgotten in video game industry lore or history: that this very strong bond existed back then between the two companies. In fact, taking it to the next step, at one point Olaf, Mickey Schulhoff (former Sony of America CEO), and I discussed that since we had such a great relationship from working on the Sega CD, why don’t we take what we’ve learned from our software developers – their input – and use it as the criteria for what the next optical platform ought to be?




So that's a no then ?. Why did SONY even show us the pictures of the Snes CD-rom ? Why does tom still talk about all the SEGA projects that never left the ground and where no-one from SONY Japan or any developer backs TOM bullshit claims up.

It blows my mind that you can't understand the difference between a design concept and prototype. Sony made working prototypes of the Nintendo Play Station, while Sega, Olaf and Ken put together a design concept for a console they could build together.

Hey, look! It's Olaf's working prototype of the Sony/Nintendo Play Station.

o9ThTxiqx30




I think you find they went it alone and that's why we got the PSX.

And water makes things wet...





I think you need to get your facts straight . Seamus Blackley confirmed that they was not one but 2 consoles projects in development at MS and how both of which faced a massive uphill battle to get the green light to go into full production . This after Bill Gates had a lovely video link at SEGA Japan and where MS said they were happy with the DC and that they had no console projects in development

I have my facts straight. The Dreamcast has nothing to do with the 2 boxes that you are referring too. The other box had nothing to do with Xbox design. It was the team behind Web TV that were trying to convince Bill Gates that they could expand their web browser box into a game console. :shame:

IrishNinja
12-31-2015, 08:12 PM
oh man, totally watching this video tonight! i'm a relatively newjack saturn fanboy, but love the shit out of it


The video is about the North American launch from the perspective of an American.

I'd expect a focus and bias in favor of the CEO who put Sega on the map.


There would be no Saturn without the success of the Genesis in the West. SOA put Sega on the map for home consoles. It makes perfect sense to discuss how Sega got to where they were, leading up to the launch of the console in North America.

yeah, again not having seen it yet, but that's what i'd go into it expecting as well


Tom lies and spin you mean . You really think SONY Japan would take all the Hardware losses itself ?. Sorry SONY wanted the software profits too and that's what NCL didn't like . And you prove to me where SONY Japan (not SONY America) offered SEGA the PS chipset. Lets remember the great Tom said that only the 32X was massmarket not the PS or Saturn . Let's remember Tom 2 page letter prasing the Saturn power how SEGA made the best games and how SEGA would win the 32 Bit war . The lies and bullshit that comes out of this man mouth makes Trip Hawkins look like a saint .

i know some of ya'll aren't fans but come on
wasn't that mass market 32X quote spin in Next Generation/EDGE when asked about the Saturn's pricing (which wasn't his call)? also what kinda leader would tom be if he hadn't raved about the saturn winning the 32-bit war? some of this is really reaching.

Greg2600
12-31-2015, 11:57 PM
Another professionally done video by CGQ, always a good watch. The head in the sand love for SOJ though is just quite comical. Even Yu Suzuki got sick of their ineptness, and had to move to California to work essentially for SOA. They screwed the pooch every chance they had.

gamevet
01-01-2016, 12:51 AM
Another professionally done video by CGQ, always a good watch. The head in the sand love for SOJ though is just quite comical. Even Yu Suzuki got sick of their ineptness, and had to move to California to work essentially for SOA. They screwed the pooch every chance they had.

Yep!

I thinks it's pretty obvious when Tom leaves the company, and the founder of Sega leaves the board of directors in disgust.

Tower of Power
01-01-2016, 01:59 AM
Yep!

I thinks it's pretty obvious when Tom leaves the company, and the founder of Sega leaves the board of directors in disgust.

I heard a theory recently that said that SOJ was envious of SOA's success with the Mega Drive (no big revelation here), so they really wanted the Saturn to be successful (and beat Nintendo) in their home turf of japan. And in that way SOJ was successful, the Saturn was reasonably successful in Japan. Just at the expense of their market share everywhere else.

Team Andromeda
01-01-2016, 07:45 AM
Like I said before, you need to quit assuming R&D is just about hardware.

It is when you're on about producing a console or a console add-on . And that side of SONY was based in Japan and locked into a deal with NCL.


Sony didn't build any of that. 98% of the titles published by Sony are developed by 2nd/3rd parties

So much for backing SEGA then . When most of SONY games were just ports .


And who cares if it was exclusive, or not? Sony was backing the Sega CD from 1992-1994

Looking over how lame that list is . So were the likes of EA, Virgin, JVC and loads of others . Shame them that only the likes of CORE put some really effort into Mega CD.



Let's look at what Tom had to say about it in a Sega-16 interview from 2006.

LOL Only SONY did was to port old games from other systems .... Other than Ground Zero Texas and that was more Digital Pictures


Hey, look! It's Olaf's working prototype of the Sony/Nintendo Play Station

LOL That the NCL/SONY Snes Drive the Playstation . The only that was SONY was locked into with NCL . Nothing whats so ever to do with Olfa I think you'll find

Since we're on about Tom lets see how he contradicts him self over the years be that his view on carts (despite the 32 x being Cart) , if the N64 was real (despite SEGA seeing the Hardware) and how VF was better than Tekken and how he and he team knew the Saturn tech was lame

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5759/23806927480_62e00de8d5_h.jpg

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5689/24102587705_1606df6908_h.jpg

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5659/24102591515_08e7ea8b2c_h.jpg

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5699/23474371764_15e7b95672_h.jpg



The king if lies and the King of spin. Either he was lying back then or now in his recent interviews . Either way he's a lair

Team Andromeda
01-01-2016, 07:58 AM
Even Yu Suzuki got sick of their ineptness, and had to move to California to work essentially for SOA

Well far be it for me to hightlight ineptness, but I'm sure you mean Yuji Naka and not Yu Suzuki . And is this same Yuji Naka that loved America so much, he wouldn't share his NiGHTS engine with them ? . Never mind that the great Olaf's left SONY America after a bust up over PS pricing . Or the way SONY let Ken kutaragi almost run SONY into the ground .

Thief
01-01-2016, 01:21 PM
Since we're on about Tom lets see how he contradicts him self over the years be that his view on carts (despite the 32 x being Cart) , if the N64 was real (despite SEGA seeing the Hardware) and how VF was better than Tekken and how he and he team knew the Saturn tech was lame.

Isn't VF deeper then Tekken? If so, VF is the better game. But don't take my word for it. I never gave Tekken enough of a chance back in the day. ie. I bought Tekken 3 when it came out because of all the rage hype in the gaming mags of the day. Only I recall getting bored with it very fast. I think I only kept it for something like one weekend then back to the store it went. I remember the same thing with Soul Caliber on the Dreamcast. Brought it back after one weekend too, to shocked EB store owners.

And someone here already mentioned Tom was basically doing Sega PR back in the day (what, you wanted him to say "Saturn is not our future" like idiot Bernie? Give me a break). So if anything, he had to lie back then, if he did. So if you're going to try to make Tom as a liar, try to spot him lying in the recent interviews. Not those from back when he was working with Sega.

Knuckle Duster
01-01-2016, 02:33 PM
Isn't VF deeper then Tekken? If so, VF is the better game. But don't take my word for it. I never gave Tekken enough of a chance back in the day. ie. I bought Tekken 3 when it came out because of all the rage hype in the gaming mags of the day. Only I recall getting bored with it very fast. I think I only kept it for something like one weekend then back to the store it went. I remember the same thing with Soul Caliber on the Dreamcast. Brought it back after one weekend too, to shocked EB store owners.

And someone here already mentioned Tom was basically doing Sega PR back in the day (what, you wanted him to say "Saturn is not our future" like idiot Bernie? Give me a break). So if anything, he had to lie back then, if he did. So if you're going to try to make Tom as a liar, try to spot him lying in the recent interviews. Not those from back when he was working with Sega.

VF is the only universally balanced fighting game franchise. It's Sega's best, and most consistent series.

Tekken has different characters that break the game into tiers, like Street Fighter. A roster full of characters that are overpowered or too handicapped to be fairly competitive.

IrishNinja
01-01-2016, 10:13 PM
literally not seeing anything in there that shows TK as a "liar". i went through just to see if the man'd contradicted himself (easy to do in interviews decades later, aging and all - he's done it on stuff ive seen here no doubt) but yeah, ntohin


Another professionally done video by CGQ, always a good watch. The head in the sand love for SOJ though is just quite comical. Even Yu Suzuki got sick of their ineptness, and had to move to California to work essentially for SOA. They screwed the pooch every chance they had.

wait, Suzuki did that? i thought Naka did for Sonic 2


I heard a theory recently that said that SOJ was envious of SOA's success with the Mega Drive (no big revelation here), so they really wanted the Saturn to be successful (and beat Nintendo) in their home turf of japan. And in that way SOJ was successful, the Saturn was reasonably successful in Japan. Just at the expense of their market share everywhere else.

first time i heard that...kinda made sense
i mean, how else you gonna explain putting sonic team onto NiGHTs, no SOR, TJ&E, Golden Axe being what it was, so many choices with no western market in mind - at least, it felt that way at the time, for me

gamevet
01-02-2016, 12:45 AM
It is when you're on about producing a console or a console add-on . And that side of SONY was based in Japan and locked into a deal with NCL.

Sony wasn't locked into the deal anymore, once NCL breached their contract by announcing (June 1991 CES) that they were partnering with Philips. Do you have any understanding of what a breach of contract means? Still, all of that is moot if Nintendo never stipulated that Sony couldn't produce their own hardware outside of that deal.

You keep trying to bring up that Sony Imagesoft (SOA) wasn't a hardware developer, to shut down any notion that they were trying to work out a deal with Sega to produce a console together. Sony of Japan (the hardware side) was onboard.



So much for backing SEGA then . When most of SONY games were just ports.

Obviously, you missed the point. 99% of all Sony published game software is developed by 2nd/3rd party developers, even today.



Looking over how lame that list is . So were the likes of EA, Virgin, JVC and loads of others . Shame them that only the likes of CORE put some really effort into Mega CD.

It's pretty funny that you say that, because one of the those games was from CORE.




LOL Only SONY did was to port old games from other systems .... Other than Ground Zero Texas and that was more Digital Pictures.

Again, you're missing the point. Sony and Sega invested in Digital Pictures. You can add Double Switch, Prize Fighter, Scottie Pippen's Slam City, C&C's Music Factory: Make my Video and Corpse Killer to the list of games from Digital Pictures.




LOL That the NCL/SONY Snes Drive the Playstation . The only that was SONY was locked into with NCL . Nothing whats so ever to do with Olfa I think you'll find.

That was the NCL/Sony Play Station that was sent to Olaf. It's the only NCL/Sony Play Station that is known to exist.



Since we're on about Tom lets see how he contradicts him self over the years be that his view on carts (despite the 32 x being Cart) , if the N64 was real (despite SEGA seeing the Hardware) and how VF was better than Tekken and how he and he team knew the Saturn tech was lame.

He didn't think the hardware was lame. He just thought that it was way too expensive to produce and sell. Sony exposed that by pricing Sega out of the 32-bit market.


You're grasping at straws if you think any of those articles show contradiction. He said that a (16-bit) cartridge typically cost around $30 to produce. The N64 carts were even more expensive ($50) to produce, and he pointed that out. That's why N64 games were @ $70 during the 1st 6 months of the consoles existence in North America.




The king if lies and the King of spin. Either he was lying back then or now in his recent interviews . Either way he's a lair

Try again. He mentioned the Sony/Sega deal in his interview with Sega-16 back in 2006. The story has never changed and nobody from Sony has every challenged that interview, going on 9 years now.

Team Andromeda
01-02-2016, 08:38 AM
And someone here already mentioned Tom was basically doing Sega PR back in the day (what, you wanted him to say "Saturn is not our future" like idiot Bernie? Give me a break

You don't see anyone from MS trying to make out the XBox One is more powerful than the PS4 . Tom is the king of lies and spin and if he didn't believe that the Saturn was more powerful he really didn't need to say it . After all some are so quick her to point out that Yu Suzuki had issues with the CPU of the Saturn . So Tom was either lying from his teeth back then or liying now . Either way the man has lied on record and will say anything to make him look good


Isn't VF deeper then Tekken? If so, VF is the better game.

To some and to others not .


Sony wasn't locked into the deal anymore, once NCL breached their contract by announcing (June 1991 CES) that they were partnering with Philips

Sony was locked into a deal with NCL untill 1991 and after that day . SONY went alone and weren't looking for anyone .



Obviously, you missed the point. 99% of all Sony published game software is developed by 2nd/3rd party developers, even today

Obviosly you seem not to understand that the likes of Little Big Planet, GT series, Killzone series, Wipeout series, Drive Club, Ico, SOTC, This Is Football series, Getaway series, Sing Star, God Of War series , Drakes series, Ape Escape series, Terraway, Primal, Medieval, Locorooc Gravity Rush, Dropship, The Legend of Dragoon, Motor Toon series, Omega Boost and god knows how many more titles are all In-House games.


It's pretty funny that you say that, because one of the those games was from CORE

Yeah a port of a Amgia and Mega Drive game that other than a CD soundtrack made little use of the Mega CD at all. The SEGA/JVC games Core games like Thunderhawk at least used the system


Again, you're missing the point. Sony and Sega invested in Digital Pictures.

I haven't as I talked about Ground Zero . Games like Sewer Shark were old Hasbro FMV games


That was the NCL/Sony Play Station that was sent to Olaf.

Sorry we all knew of the PS before that video . SONY even released this picture of PS to the press way back in September 1999 . Btw they were meant to 200 units finished and also one game that was meant to look our of this world collecting dust in SONY Japan HQ

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1488/23496313084_badf4e4f7a_h.jpg

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5799/23497738233_c69327b15a_h.jpg


He didn't think the hardware was lame. He just thought that it was way too expensive to produce and sell.

No what he told Retro gamer . Do I need to post the interview up ?


Try again. He mentioned the Sony/Sega deal in his interview with Sega-16 back in 2006

Huh They was no deal . SONY Japan never ever offered the PS chipset to SEGA.

Team Andromeda
01-02-2016, 10:57 AM
He didn't think the hardware was lame. He just thought that it was way too expensive to produce and sell. Sony exposed that by pricing Sega out of the 32-bit market.

Just to show you what a utter lair Tom really is, Here's his thoughts onthe Saturn now . So either lied back then or he is now . Any half-decent barrister could make mince meat of Tom's lies and spin in a court of Law
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5766/23831177020_ba5d006aec_h.jpg

gamevet
01-02-2016, 12:16 PM
Sony was locked into a deal with NCL untill 1991 and after that day . SONY went alone and weren't looking for anyone.

So, I guess you're okay with lying through your teeth about what Sony was doing after June of 1991?

Clearly, Sony signing up with Sega to publish games on Sega consoles in 1992 goes against such a silly notion.



Obviosly you seem not to understand that the likes of Little Big Planet, GT series, Killzone series, Wipeout series, Drive Club, Ico, SOTC, This Is Football series, Getaway series, Sing Star, God Of War series , Drakes series, Ape Escape series, Terraway, Primal, Medieval, Locorooc Gravity Rush, Dropship, The Legend of Dragoon, Motor Toon series, Omega Boost and god knows how many more titles are all In-House games.

Just about every one of those studios was 2nd or 3rd party developers when they started making games for the Playstation brand. None of those studios were created by Sony, except 989 in North America.





I haven't as I talked about Ground Zero . Games like Sewer Shark were old Hasbro FMV games

Games for (Hasbro) vaporware. The only thing that came from that was the film footage that was shot to make those games. They still needed to be built from the ground up to work on the Sega CD and other CD based systems.




Sorry we all knew of the PS before that video . SONY even released this picture of PS to the press way back in September 1999 . Btw they were meant to 200 units finished and also one game that was meant to look our of this world collecting dust in SONY Japan HQ

Do you have comprehension skill problems?

I'm showing you an actual NCL/Sony Play Station that was owned by Olaf. I'm showing you that he was very much involved with Sony's software development for the NCL/Sony Play Station, and other platforms after that deal fell through. We've all seen the concept art of the Sony Play Station for NCL.



No what he told Retro gamer . Do I need to post the interview up?

I have that issue, thank you very much. And no, that was not the 1st time he had said that. I even pointed you to the Sega-16 interview with Tom from back in 2006, where he had said the same thing.

http://www.sega-16.com/2006/07/interview-tom-kalinske/


Sega-16: So Sony essentially brought their ideas to the two big guns in the industry, only to be turned down and forced out on their own.

Tom Kalinske: Yeah, they had no choice in their mind, I’m sure. First, they tried to go with one of the two big companies and when that failed, well of course they have to go out on their own. And of course, they ended up benefiting tremendously because of that.


You're reading comprehension skills are killing me.

Nothing that you have posted above, has shown that he was twisting lies. The 1996 articles you posted showed him touting the software lineup for the Saturn that holiday season and the price point. He never said the hardware was more powerful, but he did say that Sega's hardware would provide the best games (are you going to dispute that too?) that 1996 holiday season.

His team felt that the SGI chipset was better. So, what?




Huh They was no deal . SONY Japan never ever offered the PS chipset to SEGA.

Again, you are showing a total lack of comprehension skills here. Nobody said that Sony of Japan offered Sega the PS chipset. You need to get the stupid idea out of your head.

Sony of America (Sony Imagesoft), Ken Kataragi and Tom approached Sony of Japan with a very basic concept drawing (like a patent flow chart) of what they felt would be a basis for new CD based console that they could both back. Once Sega of Japan's board of directors shot it down, Ken and Sony went on their own to create the PlayStation.

Barone
01-02-2016, 01:17 PM
Let's see:

- Makes a lot of money based on aggressive marketing AND great games developed by SOJ AND great hardware design by SOJ -> Gets all the credit.
- Smokes millions on shitty FMV stuff -> Gets a free pass.
- Smokes millions on a Multimedia Studio which developed half a dozen of mediocre games -> Gets a free pass.
- Insult-based marketing campaign for the Game Gear with damage to Sega's image -> Gets a free pass.
- Retard FMV-based campaign for the Sega CD with potential damage to Sega's image -> Gets a free pass.
- Over-promising 32X's campaign ("40X faster" and etc.) with potential damage to Sega's image and Genesis status -> Gets a free pass.
- Poor damage control of the whole "Night Trap" and violent games bs -> Gets a free pass.
- Saturn's awkward and retard advertising campaign -> Gets a free pass.
- Sets up STI with major technical support from SOJ -> Gets all the credit for the good part of the results.
- Fails to deliver a consistent quality control for SOA-subcontracted developed games -> Gets a free pass.
- Fails to build a productive in-house or second party development team -> Gets a free pass.
- Fails to localize several great games and never releases in US some very good/great games released in Europe -> Gets a free pass.
- Whores out the Sonic brand with the mediocre Sonic Spinball -> Gets praised for the number of units sold.
- Promotes shitty stuff like the "Activator" -> Gets a free pass.
- Loses a lot of market share after so much money smoked on bs -> Gets a free pass.
- Sonic X-Treme debacle -> Gets a free pass.
- Promotes a partnership with Sony and share info with them without SOJ's approval -> Gets a free pass.
- Supports the Joe Miller's 32X design with no real support for 3D -> Gets a free pass.
- 32X released in US with major retailers supply issues -> Gets a free pass.
- Retard surprise launch of the Saturn ripping off major retailers -> Gets a free pass.
- SOA redesigns the Saturn controller to be much worse for no good reason -> Gets a free pass.
- Fails to sell the "millions" of 32X units like he had envisioned and promised to all media -> Blames SOJ for everything.
- Fails to sell the Saturn in US -> Blames SOJ for everything.
- Blames SOJ for all SOA's failures under his management -> Gets praised by Sega-16.

The pro-SOA bias in this board is very strong, so it doesn't really surprise me.

It's a shame that Sega Ages collection doesn't include a single volume for the SOA-developed treasures; I'm pretty sure that people all over the world would love to play Greendog once again.

It's a shame there isn't a Kalinske Game Works series to allow us to contemplate all his brilliance and hard work which created the conditions for us to be graced with the existence of the Saturn.
Let's forgive Sega for having released three consoles prior the existence of such a messiah.

Let's forgive the dickheads of SOJ for design awful games such as Monaco GP, Zaxxon, Hang-On, Space Harrier, Fantasy Zone, OutRun, After Burner, Phantasy Star, Shinobi, Columns, etc. It wouldn't be until Kalinke's era that Sega would be able to pull off masterpieces such as Wild Woody and really build a respectful brand.

Let's forgive SOJ for making money out of the arcades when they could have sold millions of 32X units and just smile upon their competitors.

Let's forgive the stupid SOJ designers and producers who made Disney games such as Quackshot and Castle of Illusion when they could have produced something like TaleSpin under SOA's guidance.
But thank God Kalinske was there to redesign Sonic without fangs and allow it to be a successful product.

Let's forgive all these narrow-minded stupid foreigners (who should not be in this forum in the first place) for not being able to recognize the greatness of Kalinske's legacy.

Thank God for Kalinske, "the man who put Sega on the map". :notworthy:

Team Andromeda
01-02-2016, 02:00 PM
So, I guess you're okay with lying through your teeth about what Sony was doing after June of 1991

All they was doing was designing and developing the PS by themself's.


Sony signing up with Sega to publish games on Sega consoles in 1992 goes against such a silly notion

What using the likes of SEGA and NCL to get it's foot in the door.


Games for (Hasbro) vaporware.

LOL it wasn't vaporware the games and most of the Hardware was finished. Night Trap and the likes of Sewer Shark were developed for that format.


They still needed to be built from the ground up to work on the Sega CD and other CD based systems

LOL There's been plenty of games were made for one format only to be brought out for another. Snacther started life as a MSX game, Dragon's Lair as Laser Disc system all those came to the Mega CD. And Halo started life as a Mac game yet came to the console and viva pinata has a Windows phone game and yet became a 360 title


I'm showing you an actual NCL/Sony Play Station that was owned by Olaf.

Are you for real ? SONY is a Japanese corp and they call and control all the shots . Olaf was just a employee.


I have that issue, thank you very much. And no, that was not the 1st time he had said that.

Listen to you it was the high price of the Saturn, changed our tune now have we . Oh and BTW here was the great TOM had to say on SONY tech back in 1994 that SEGA had superior tech , what a lair he really is

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1650/23762189689_857506e823_h.jpg


His team felt that the SGI chipset was better. So, what

Yet in 1995 he was saying the Saturn was the best . Also looking over that, if he and his team really felt like that why didn't they just use the SGI chipset for the 32X instead of going with the SH-2's and their own VDP. Or why didn't and his best mate Olfa use the PS chipset for the 32X when that call came from Japan .


Nobody said that Sony of Japan offered Sega the PS chipset.

SONY Japan do all the Hardware. So if SONY Japan are not into it there's no chipset .

Team Andromeda
01-02-2016, 02:20 PM
I'm pretty sure that people all over the world would love to play Greendog once again.

I still have a old CES video of Tom saying Greendog was going to bigger than Sonic and show the world what American developers can do . Nice one Tom


Let's forgive all these narrow-minded stupid foreigners (who should not be in this forum in the first place) for not being able to recognize the greatness of Kalinske's legacy

To be fair he did do a lot of good work too . I like how he helped set up STI and had the balls to stand up to SOJ and pack in Sonic and use Sonic to really sell the system and I also liked how he did far better with the Mega CD. That said he blew up all that hardware by beliveing in the 32X far too much and think cost would win the 32 bit war .

Thief
01-02-2016, 02:52 PM
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5799/23497738233_c69327b15a_h.jpg

Wow, that Sony gamepad looks so much more comfortable and flexible for all type of games instead of the garbage we got. :(

gamevet
01-02-2016, 11:14 PM
LOL it wasn't vaporware the games and most of the Hardware was finished. Night Trap and the likes of Sewer Shark were developed for that format.

The plug was pulled and the planned production run of 250,000 units was cancelled. It was vaporware.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/12/25/finding-nemo-the-story-behind-hasbros-nintendo-killer


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vaporware


: a computer-related product that has been widely advertised but has not and may never become available.




SONY Japan do all the Hardware. So if SONY Japan are not into it there's no chipset .

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/Gamevet/picard-headesk.jpg (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Gamevet/media/picard-headesk.jpg.html)

Team Andromeda
01-03-2016, 02:01 AM
The plug was pulled and the planned production run of 250,000 units was cancelled. It was vaporware

No its just a product that was never put into full production . Some of the games were done and the Hardare finished, that is hardly vaporware that's more for a product that never ever exists at all or was desgined and built and just made up on the spot

The likes of Sewer Shark were just ports from and tbh FMV was hardly using the Mega CD to it's fullest . And Sony Japan controls desgins and greenlights all of SONY R&D and Hardware.

Greg2600
01-03-2016, 02:01 AM
Well far be it for me to hightlight ineptness, but I'm sure you mean Yuji Naka and not Yu Suzuki . And is this same Yuji Naka that loved America so much, he wouldn't share his NiGHTS engine with them ? . Never mind that the great Olaf's left SONY America after a bust up over PS pricing . Or the way SONY let Ken kutaragi almost run SONY into the ground .

Yes sorry I meant Naka. Kutaragi was not "let SONY" run into the ground. Ken was chastised but he took one for the team. SONY made a corporate decision to include a Bluray drive in every PS3, which inflated the price by $200 or whatever. Sure this killed them at the outset, but last time I checked SONY's format won, and the games division is fine now.

Perhaps there's another side of the story, but SOJ refuse to grant interviews, and have never openly contradicted what SOA folks have said.

I submit the following as evidence of SEGA's bumbling, and who the decision-making was done by....

1. SOJ refuses to collaborate with SONY in a manner that sees what becomes the PlayStation instead of becoming the Saturn. No, Sony didn't hand them their specs, but their engineers had the same skepticism SOA's did about the SOJ Saturn. Not to mention they lost the chance to spread hardware costs across BOTH manufacturers, which would have been a monstrous bonus. To say nothing about SONY's marketing muscle.

2. Overall Sega cannot compete with SONY's piggy bank, so their marketing resources are far less. As a result of budgetary constraints, SOJ orders ALL MegaDrive/Genesis development ceased. Tough to point blame on this one, but it was a mistake.

3. Kalinske, who was NOT enthralled with the 32X, realizes his Genesis is too underpowered vs. the SNES, AND wants a smoother transition to the next system. SOJ wishes him to sell the 32X as a new standalone system (essentially a Neptune), but Tom gets clearance to sell the add-on so as not to piss off Genesis owners. Was it pricey, yes? Did it erode confidence in SEGA? To a degree, but the alternative was further embarrassment by Nintendo, who were full steam ahead with DK Country and other impressive SNES titles.

4. The early launch, which was an unbelievable disaster, was dictated by SOJ, for some unGodly reason. This was coupled with the drop in support of everything else, including Genesis, 32X, and Game Gear too.

So there's plenty of blame to go around, but the most critically disastrous decisions were made in Japan, not by Tom.

gamevet
01-03-2016, 02:48 AM
No its just a product that was never put into full production . Some of the games were done and the Hardare finished, that is hardly vaporware that's more for a product that never ever exists at all or was desgined and built and just made up on the spot

The likes of Sewer Shark were just ports from and tbh FMV was hardly using the Mega CD to it's fullest.

Sewer Shark was never completed for the hardware. The console was shut down right after filming was completed. All of this was covered in the article that I had linked. It's pretty obvious that your either didn't bother to read it, or can't quite understand what the article was telling you.

Obviously, you don't get what vaporware means.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/145351/article.html


12. Sega VR


Sega VR
Before the madness of the dot-com boom really got under way, the serious buzz was all about virtual reality. Aside from the movie The Lawnmower Man and VR cafés springing up in tech-friendly cities, a potential battle was shaping up between two giants of the video game industry, both aiming to bring the wonders of virtual reality gaming to the home.

Sega had decided to create the Sega VR as a virtual-reality add-on to its wildly popular Genesis system. Although the twin-LCD headset made the player look like a cross between Battlestar Galactica's Cylons and Knight Rider's KITT, it was one of the sleeker-looking VR headsets of the day. And, by all accounts, that was the best thing about it. Despite ambitious specs, including 320-by-200-pixel resolution, head tracking, and a color display, the few people who tried the system outside of Sega--mostly at trade shows--were far from impressed. While the Sega VR did meet its specs on paper, in practice the images were a blurry mess. The company scrapped the project in 1994. (But not before making an arrangement to offer the Sega VR as a prize in an Alpha-Bits cereal contest. What the winner actually got is a mystery.)

Sega probably breathed a sigh of relief when a year later Nintendo's Virtual Boy also flopped spectacularly.




And Sony Japan controls designs and green lights all of SONY R&D and Hardware.

Fixed if for you.

It was green lighted by Sony of Japan. It was the Sega board that had shot it down.

It never made it to the design stage, yet somehow you can't understand that.

Team Andromeda
01-04-2016, 06:41 PM
Sewer Shark was never completed for the hardware. The console was shut down right after filming was completed.

Like Night Trap most of the game was done. The only thing changed inthe Mega CD version of Night Trap was a reshot of the intro and breaking contact (with a Mega Drive pad) Since you're mean to be a reader of Retro Gamer you would know this after the special they did on Night Trap.


Obviously, you don't get what vaporware means.

Vaporware to me means the likes of Atari Jaguar 2 (said to 5 times the power of PS) The Virtual Figther 3 Add On Cart for the Saturn Saturn (meant to have Model 3 power), the GigaDrive (the 32 Bit follow up) and so on. Stuff that we never saw in any form and so is vaporware ie a load of hot air . Where as something like the Nasbro Nemo, the SEGA Neptune, Snes PS are not Vaporware as we seen some sort of proof of them either with games or hardware prototypes.


It never made it to the design stage

I think you find it made it alright and went on to become the 2nd best selling home console of all time . You seem not to understand what a employee is or what a Subsidiary is . Think like you Bernie owns the DC and Ed Fries the original XBox.

I think you find SONY Japan owns the PS

A Black Falcon
01-05-2016, 04:11 AM
Like Night Trap most of the game was done. The only thing changed inthe Mega CD version of Night Trap was a reshot of the intro and breaking contact (with a Mega Drive pad) Since you're mean to be a reader of Retro Gamer you would know this after the special they did on Night Trap.
The filming was done, sure, but not the programming and such, I believe. Just having the filming done doesn't make the whole game finished!


Vaporware to me means the likes of Atari Jaguar 2 (said to 5 times the power of PS) The Virtual Figther 3 Add On Cart for the Saturn Saturn (meant to have Model 3 power), the GigaDrive (the 32 Bit follow up) and so on. Stuff that we never saw in any form and so is vaporware ie a load of hot air . Where as something like the Nasbro Nemo, the SEGA Neptune, Snes PS are not Vaporware as we seen some sort of proof of them either with games or hardware prototypes.
vaporware means something which was promised but never released. Games which are long-delayed are sometimes called vaporware (Duke Nukem Forever was for some time, for example), hardware which was announced but has since disappeared or never made it to release, etc. It's not only something never shown in the first place, no; that's more restrictive than the actual definition of the term.

See the definition here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware Vaporware is, specifically, something that has been announced but not (yet) released. It's usually something in development, or alternately something which probably WAS in development but may since have been cancelled.

Team Andromeda
01-05-2016, 06:57 AM
The filming was done, sure, but not the programming and such, I believe.

In the Night Trap special the only change was a extra reshot for the end of the intro . The gameplay was not changed and most of the Nemo hardware done, just that Hasbro got cold feet right at the last moment, much like they did with their VR system too . That happens


vaporware means something which was promised but never released

To me it means a load of hot air and stuff that never ever existed. Hardware like the Snes PS was desgined built and finished a game like WaterWorld on the Saturn finshed but sadly never brought out, same for the SEGA Mega Drive VR (and what a waste of money that was) . Bit different to vaporware like Saturn VF 3 (which were never ever saw at any stage), the much talked about Saturn VF 3 add-m Cart, or the Jaguar 2 Hardware, or SEGA's 32 Bit Gigadrive.

I think there is a world of different myself

gamevet
01-07-2016, 12:06 AM
Like Night Trap most of the game was done. The only thing changed inthe Mega CD version of Night Trap was a reshot of the intro and breaking contact (with a Mega Drive pad) Since you're mean to be a reader of Retro Gamer you would know this after the special they did on Night Trap.

Not even close. The filming was completed right around the time that Hasbro killed the project. The only playable part of Night Trap, was a 5 minute demo called Scene of the Crime. It didn't have any of the traps that you see in the game, much beyond just showing the changing room scenes. The demo was shot over a weekend.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/12/25/finding-nemo-the-story-behind-hasbros-nintendo-killer


Fulop also made Scene of the Crime with director Jim Riley. “It was basically Night Trap without the traps,” said Fulop. “A five minute mystery shot over a weekend in a house in Hillsborough.” The demo was inspired by a play called Tamara, an experiment in parallel storytelling that asked the audience to move between 13 different rooms to piece together its multifaceted mystery. Tamara – and in turn, Scene of the Crime – became the template for FMV game design, particularly Night Trap.

Still, it really doesn't matter where Night Trap and Sewer Shark got their start. They were the top selling Sega CD titles for the add-on in North America, and FMV played a huge part in the promotion and sales of the Sega CD in the region.





Vaporware to me means the likes of Atari Jaguar 2 (said to 5 times the power of PS) The Virtual Figther 3 Add On Cart for the Saturn Saturn (meant to have Model 3 power), the GigaDrive (the 32 Bit follow up) and so on. Stuff that we never saw in any form and so is vaporware ie a load of hot air . Where as something like the Nasbro Nemo, the SEGA Neptune, Snes PS are not Vaporware as we seen some sort of proof of them either with games or hardware prototypes.

That's a small part of what vaporware is. The meaning has changed over the years. M2 is considered vaporware as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware


Vaporware also includes announced products that are never released because of financial problems, or because the industry changes during its development.[12] When 3D Realms first announced their video game Duke Nukem Forever in 1997, it was early in its development.[18] The company's previous game released in 1996, Duke Nukem 3D, was a critical and financial success, and customer anticipation for its sequel was high. As personal computer hardware speeds improved at a rapid pace in the late 1990s, it created an "arms race" between companies in the video game industry, according to Wired News. 3D Realms repeatedly moved the release date back over the next 12 years to add new, more advanced features. By the time 3D Realms went out of business in 2009 with the game still unreleased, Duke Nukem Forever had become synonymous with the word "vaporware" among industry writers.[19][20] The game was revived and released in 2011. However, due to a 13-year period of anticipations and poor storyline, the game had primarily extremely negative reviews, except for PC Gamer, who gave it 80/100.




I think you find it made it alright and went on to become the 2nd best selling home console of all time . You seem not to understand what a employee is or what a Subsidiary is . Think like you Bernie owns the DC and Ed Fries the original XBox.

I think you find SONY Japan owns the PS

What are you babbling on about?

Nobody said that the Playstation could have possibly been a Sony/Sega collaboration. The headlines may have painted a Sege Playstation, but that was not what Tom was saying. The console could have been called a Sega Uranus, for all we know.

Ken continued his dream of making a console, and he decided to keep the name Playstation, since Sony's Nintendo Play Station was a huge burn for them. Meanwhile, Sega began working on the Saturn in 1993.

Team Andromeda
01-07-2016, 05:27 PM
Not even close. The filming was completed right around the time that Hasbro killed the project. The only playable part of Night Trap, was a 5 minute demo called Scene of the Crime. It didn't have any of the traps that you see in the game, much beyond just showing the changing room scenes. The demo was shot over a weekend.

Dear God !. If you're going to post a link, at least take the time and trouble to read the link, or the issues of RetroGammer one says they have. Scene of the Crime was demo and not the finished game.. The Clue with NighTrap, was in its name. No way you the studio film the scenes and then go back to reshot them only now with traps . The traps were part of the set part of the game from the very start. All of the game development and filming was done by 88, long before the Mega CD even saw the light of day. So like with Sewer Shark it's nothing more than a port

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1658/24129323872_841d444eaf_h.jpg


They were the top selling Sega CD titles for the add-on in North America,

Says who ? Night Trap casued a stir sold a bit too , but It didn't last and SEGA pissed down a ton of money down the FMV hype wagon ..


The headlines may have painted a Sege Playstation, but that was not what Tom was saying. The console could have been called a Sega Uranus, for all we know.

Tom is just for of talk and bullshit. PS was SONY Japan


Meanwhile, Sega began working on the Saturn in 1993

I think you'll find SEGA started work onthe Saturn long before then

Crom
01-07-2016, 08:27 PM
Sony of America (Sony Imagesoft), Ken Kataragi and Tom approached Sony of Japan with a very basic concept drawing (like a patent flow chart) of what they felt would be a basis for new CD based console that they could both back. Once Sega of Japan's board of directors shot it down, Ken and Sony went on their own to create the PlayStation.

This makes my head hurt. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Ken Kutaragi began work on the PlayStation in 1988, before Kalinske was even at Sega. Kalinske had nothing whatsoever to do with the development of the PlayStation.

:blah:

bultje112
01-08-2016, 05:33 AM
Makes zero difference. Sony America never ever had a hardware division, It was SONY Japan that called the R&D shots and developed all the Hardware and SONY Japan was locked into an 'exclusive' deal with NCL and the Snes CD Drive . And speaking of Olaf you do know he left SONY America after a huge bust up with SONY Japan and the pricing of the American PS (which SONY Japan were not happy with) . Tom can lie and spin all he wants, he cocked up and call the 32Bit war all wrong at the end of the day and I just wished he was more honest about it

what? is it now hip all of a sudden to hate on tom kalinske? he did call the 32 bit market right on. the 32 bit market was virtually non-existant in the west(major markets combined) until 1997. sega blew everything away by focusing on the saturn when they should've focused on the megadrive, like nintendo did with the snes.

Team Andromeda
01-08-2016, 05:56 AM
what? is it now hip all of a sudden to hate on tom kalinske? he did call the 32 bit market right on. the 32 bit market was virtually non-existant in the west(major markets combined) until 1997. sega blew everything away by focusing on the saturn when they should've focused on the megadrive, like nintendo did with the snes.

Sorry the 16 bit market in the west was in steep decline and Sony millions of 32bit PS in 1995 and more so 1996 . Tom called it wrong with the 32x .

Tower of Power
01-08-2016, 04:47 PM
what? is it now hip all of a sudden to hate on tom kalinske? he did call the 32 bit market right on. the 32 bit market was virtually non-existant in the west(major markets combined) until 1997. sega blew everything away by focusing on the saturn when they should've focused on the megadrive, like nintendo did with the snes.

There are some people on these boards who have an irrational hatred of Tom Kalinske, blaming him for things he wasn't necessarily involved him, and denying him credit for stuff he was involved in. Not to say he was perfect or anything, but fair is fair.

I think in 1993 or so there was a steep decline in 16 bit sales, so that caused some panic at Sega which shows in the sometimes rushed moves to 32 bit they made.

Team Andromeda
01-08-2016, 06:31 PM
There are some people on these boards who have an irrational hatred of Tom Kalinske, blaming him for things he wasn't necessarily involved him


And his supporters can't have it both ways either. This was meant to be the man that stood up to SEGA Japan but then he's also meant to be the man that had no choice but to do what SEGA Japan said . Also its a myth to say the Mega Drive and Snes was doing well in the mid 90's . Both SEGA and Nintendo was seeing the 16 bit market shrink and become saturated . Nothing shows this more than the likes of Sonic... Sonic 1 and II sell millions and millions, Sonic II and S&K nothing like the numbers despite a massive push for Sonic III and a huge userbase . Truth is most consumers were ready for somthing new



https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7571/15692293292_66176dd15b_h.jpg

IrishNinja
01-08-2016, 07:24 PM
what? is it now hip all of a sudden to hate on tom kalinske? he did call the 32 bit market right on. the 32 bit market was virtually non-existant in the west(major markets combined) until 1997. sega blew everything away by focusing on the saturn when they should've focused on the megadrive, like nintendo did with the snes.


There are some people on these boards who have an irrational hatred of Tom Kalinske, blaming him for things he wasn't necessarily involved him, and denying him credit for stuff he was involved in. Not to say he was perfect or anything, but fair is fair.

I think in 1993 or so there was a steep decline in 16 bit sales, so that caused some panic at Sega which shows in the sometimes rushed moves to 32 bit they made.

seriously, i know console wars rubbed some people wrong but the reaching for narratives is amazing


Sorry the 16 bit market in the west was in steep decline and Sony millions of 32bit PS in 1995 and more so 1996 . Tom called it wrong with the 32x .

the 32x wasn't his call, just like most hardware decisions - what was he supposed to do? he (rightfully) pointed out saturn's price as not being for everyone in that issue of next gen, framing 32x as anything but a holdover was pretty much his job as CEO. if he would've pulled a Bernie and just said "32x isnt our future" that would've made him a better man/CEO?

gamevet
01-08-2016, 09:58 PM
This makes my head hurt. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Ken Kutaragi began work on the PlayStation in 1988, before Kalinske was even at Sega. Kalinske had nothing whatsoever to do with the development of the PlayStation.

:blah:

Your comment makes my head explode.

Sony signed up with Nintendo to create a CD add-on device for the SNES in 1988 and then eventually they went one step further and tried to create an all-in-one SNES/Sony CD machine. It was called Playstation, but had nothing to do with the design of the real Playstation, that Sony started developing in 1993. It was code named PS-X, or Playstation Extreme.

What you're saying is like calling the Atari Panther the same project as the Jaguar.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/Gamevet/PSX_zpsnf1n8mut.jpg (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Gamevet/media/PSX_zpsnf1n8mut.jpg.html)

Crom
01-08-2016, 10:12 PM
Your comment makes my head explode.

Sony signed up with Nintendo to create a CD add-on device for the SNES in 1988 and then eventually they went one step further and tried to create an all-in-one SNES/Sony CD machine. It was called Playstation, but had nothing to do with the design of the real Playstation, that Sony started developing in 1993. It was code named PS-X, or Playstation Extreme.

What you're saying is like calling the Atari Panther the same project as the Jaguar.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d76/Gamevet/PSX_zpsnf1n8mut.jpg (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Gamevet/media/PSX_zpsnf1n8mut.jpg.html)

:confused:

What you just posted does not in any way verify the outrageous claim you made:


Sony of America (Sony Imagesoft), Ken Kataragi and Tom approached Sony of Japan with a very basic concept drawing (like a patent flow chart) of what they felt would be a basis for new CD based console that they could both back. Once Sega of Japan's board of directors shot it down, Ken and Sony went on their own to create the PlayStation.

The reason being that you made it up.

Again, Kalinske had nothing to do with the development of the PlayStation.

gamevet
01-08-2016, 10:39 PM
The reason being that you made it up.

Again, Kalinske had nothing to do with the development of the PlayStation.

A concept drawing between Ken Kutaragi, Sony Imagesoft and Tom's team had nothing to do with the eventual development of the PS-X. How you came to that conclusion is just mind numbing. You're basically putting words in my mouth that I'd never said.

Ken Kutaragi designed the 3D chip that would be the center point of PS-X development. How you came to the conclusion that the concept drawing was being suggested as a part of that development is on you. The article I posted even stated that Sony went it alone and began development of the PlayStation on their own.

I certainly didn't make it up either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_(console)


After the collapse of the joint-Nintendo project, Sony briefly considered allying itself with Sega to produce a stand-alone console. The Sega CEO at the time, Tom Kalinske, took the proposal to Sega's Board of Directors in Tokyo, who promptly vetoed the idea. Kalinske, in a 2013 interview recalled them saying "that’s a stupid idea, Sony doesn't know how to make hardware. They don’t know how to make software either. Why would we want to do this?".[23] This prompted Sony into halting their research, but ultimately the company decided to use what they had developed so far with both Nintendo and Sega to make it into a complete console based upon the Super Famicom.[23] As a result, Nintendo filed a lawsuit claiming breach of contract and attempted, in US federal court, to obtain an injunction against the release of what was originally christened the "Play Station", on the grounds that Nintendo owned the name.[22] The federal judge presiding over the case denied the injunction and, in October 1991, the first incarnation of the aforementioned brand new game system was revealed. However, it is theorized that only 200 or so of these machines were ever produced.[24]

Tom also mentioned Sony's brief consideration of allying itself with Sega to produce a stand-alone console in his 2006 interview with Sega-16.

Crom
01-08-2016, 11:37 PM
A concept drawing between Ken Kutaragi, Sony Imagesoft and Tom's team had nothing to do with the eventual development of the PS-X. How you came to that conclusion is just mind numbing. You're basically putting words in my mouth that I'd never said.

Ken Kutaragi designed the 3D chip that would be the center point of PS-X development. How you came to the conclusion that the concept drawing was being suggested as a part of that development is on you. The article I posted even stated that Sony went it alone and began development of the PlayStation on their own.

OK, let's do this the hard way:


Sony of America (Sony Imagesoft), Ken Kataragi and Tom approached Sony of Japan with a very basic concept drawing (like a patent flow chart) of what they felt would be a basis for new CD based console that they could both back.

No, Kalinske, Olafsson, and Kutaragi did not approach Sony of Japan with a concept drawing. According to Kalinske, he and Olafsson came up with ideal specs for a new console and approached Kutaragi in Japan, who of course was independently developing the PlayStation. Kalinske has never given any indication that they spoke to any execs at Sony of Japan - just Kutaragi, who Kalinske says was interested in a partnership.


Once Sega of Japan's board of directors shot it down, Ken and Sony went on their own to create the PlayStation.

Sega of Japan turning down the partnership did NOT result in Kutaragi then going on to develop the PlayStation. The PlayStation prototype was already finished by mid 1992. Kalinske's meeting with Kutaragi was essentially an irrelevant aside. Kutaragi had been secretly working on the independent PlayStation at Sony even as the second round of the possible Nintendo/Sony partnership was under way, and when that fell through his prototype was the only thing that stopped the Sony execs from axing it all.

The supposed Sony/Sega partnership does not even deserve a footnote in the history of the PlayStation because it got shot down by Sega from the start. Although it seems that you are now intent on denying it, you were clearly trying to imply that Kalinkse's suggestion of a joint console development somehow had an influence on Kutaragi's development of the PlayStation, which is of course outrageous.

gamevet
01-08-2016, 11:38 PM
Dear God !. If you're going to post a link, at least take the time and trouble to read the link, or the issues of RetroGammer one says they have. Scene of the Crime was demo and not the finished game.. The Clue with NighTrap, was in its name. No way you the studio film the scenes and then go back to reshot them only now with traps . The traps were part of the set part of the game from the very start. All of the game development and filming was done by 88, long before the Mega CD even saw the light of day. So like with Sewer Shark it's nothing more than a port.

The Scene of the Crime demo was used as a template for the development of Night Trap. There's even a hidden code in the Sega CD version of Night Trap, that shows the team demonstrating Scene of the Crime to Hasbro.

The only thing ported from the Nemo versions was the video, that was converted to MPEG-1 for the Sega CD.



Says who ? Night Trap casued a stir sold a bit too , but It didn't last and SEGA pissed down a ton of money down the FMV hype wagon ..

Sewer Shark was a pack-in game for the clam-shell Sega CD. It sold very well, because of that. Night Trap had a second run, after the whole controversial court case and was eventually ported to the 32X.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Trap


Footage of the never released VHS-based Control-Vision games can be viewed in the Sega CD version of Night Trap by entering a button code when the credits read "In Memory of Stephen D. Hassenfield".[6] This footage shows Hasbro executives taking a look at Scene of the Crime (the prototype for Night Trap) in December 1987.


Due to the controversy over the game, Night Trap only sold through an initial print run, but was still considered financially successful.[26] It became a best-seller in the United Kingdom.



PS was SONY Japan.

Well, no shit. The proposed console specs for a Sony/Sega collaboration were shot down. That proposal had nothing to do with the Sony PlayStation.




I think you'll find SEGA started work onthe Saturn long before then

They worked on several projects during that time period. The Jupiter and early Saturn projects were scrapped, with the real Saturn hardware not going into development until 1993.

https://segaretro.org/History_of_the_Sega_Saturn


Rumours of a successor to the Sega Mega Drive emerged as early as 1991, with the arrival and subsequent rise of Nintendo's Super Famicom in Japan. The Super Famicom, later to become the Super Nintendo Entertainment System (or SNES) in western markets, was considered by much of the press to be the superior machine from a technical standpoint, prompting suggestions that Sega may have attempted to leapfrog its competition at the earliest possible opportunity.

The industry was still relatively young and the concept of a console "cycle" had not yet fully been explored, and the arrival of the Sega Mega-CD put the question of a successor to bed for several months. However, in 1993 the situation was different - threats of the Atari Jaguar, CD-i and 3DO were putting strain on the Mega Drive's 16-bit image in the West, and in Japan, the system simply had not taken off, and so, talk of brand a new console began to make the headlines - "project Saturn".

Pre-announcement
A 27-member group known as the Away Team, began development of the "Saturn" project - a CD-based gaming system to carry the company forward. Away Team was composed of Sega employees from a wide range of specialties, including hardware engineering, product development, and marketing, and was headed by Hideki Sato, who had also been responsible for designing Sega's prior "main" consoles. The team worked roughly two years on the project exclusively, in an attempt to get the console to launch with the some of the world's best hardware and software of the era.

Throughout much of 1993, nobody knew what project Saturn entailed, though from the start it seemed likely that the successor to the Mega Drive would be a "32-bit" or "64-bit" system utilising a CD-ROM drive and possibly offering a cartridge option (though no Mega Drive backwards compatibility). It was often difficult to envision the future - Virtua Racing and later Virtua Fighter gave clues about what 3D gaming from Sega could look like, but expectations were raised when Namco demonstrated its texture-mapped arcade racing game, Ridge Racer at the Amusement Machine Show 1993.

On September 21st, 1993, Sega announced a joint venture with Hitachi with the intention of producing a "32-bit" video game multimedia machine, the idea being that Hitachi would be responsble for producing the processor. Mega Drive and Mega-CD support was effectively ruled out around this point - it was unlikely that Sega would equip its new console with all the chips required to run this software natively, and more modern techniques such as software emulation was completely unheard of at the time.

By February 1994, talk of the Saturn was well under way, with developers supposedly receving extremely early hardware reported to be vastly superior to the Amiga CD32, Atari Jaguar and 3DO, as well as Virtua Racing. It was thought to be more in-line with Sega's Daytona project (the corporation's answer to Ridge Racer), though these comparisons with Sega Model 2 hardware were often generous to the Saturn. Furthermore, Virtua Racing actually has a higher polygon count than Daytona, but because the polygons are not texture-mapped (which, incidentally was technology provided by Lockheed Martin, not Sega), the game looks less "realistic".

Edge magazine issue #5 states that the Saturn had a SH7032 CPU RISC chip running at 27MHz as its main processor, 3MB of RAM (which suggests a lack of VDP2 chip), "32 audio channels" (with support for PCM and FM) and a release date of November 1994. The final model opts for two SH-2 processors, with the SH-1 reduced to controlling the CD-ROM drive.

Barone
01-08-2016, 11:56 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Crom again.

gamevet
01-09-2016, 12:27 AM
OK, let's do this the hard way:



No, Kalinske, Olafsson, and Kutaragi did not approach Sony of Japan with a concept drawing. According to Kalinske, he and Olafsson came up with ideal specs for a new console and approached Kutaragi in Japan, who of course was independently developing the PlayStation. Kalinske has never given any indication that they spoke to any execs at Sony of Japan - just Kutaragi, who Kalinske says was interested in a partnership.

My mistake on Kutaragi being involved in that stage. Sony of Japan was shown the specs conceived by Olaf, Tom's team and Mickey Shulloff.

http://www.sega-16.com/2006/07/interview-tom-kalinske/


Tom Kalinske: That’s a good question, and you have to remember that this was the very beginning of the optical medium in terms of a video game experience, and none of us knew what the hell we were doing! I mean, it was really an experiment, a great learning experience. One of the interesting things to me is that one of our strongest partners in developing for that platform was Sony. And Sony didn’t have a hardware division (at least for video games) at the time. They had a software division run by Olaf Olafsson, who was a great partner to us. They spent lots of money developing games for the Sega CD (probably more than we did), we gave them technical help – a lot of it; we loaned them people, and there was really this wonderful collaborative effort. We each benefited from each other’s work, and I think that’s one of the things that has been forgotten in video game industry lore or history: that this very strong bond existed back then between the two companies. In fact, taking it to the next step, at one point Olaf, Mickey Schulhoff (former Sony of America CEO), and I discussed that since we had such a great relationship from working on the Sega CD, why don’t we take what we’ve learned from our software developers – their input – and use it as the criteria for what the next optical platform ought to be?

So we got all that and put it together so that it wasn’t just pure engineeringese (jargon) but something that people could understand. I remember we had a document that Olaf and Mickey took to Sony that said they’d like to develop jointly the next hardware, the next game platform, with Sega, and here’s what we think it ought to do. Sony apparently gave the green light to that. I took it to Sega of Japan and told them that this was what we thought an ideal platform would be, at least from an U.S. perspective, based on what we’ve learned from the Sega CD, and our involvement with Sony and our own people. Sega said not a chance. Why would it want to share a platform with Sony? Sega would be much better off just developing its own platform, and it’s nice that we had some ideas on what that platform ought to be and they’d consider it, but the company would be developing its next platform itself.

When you think back on that position, it’s an interesting one. We all knew we were going to lose money on the hardware, so our proposal was that each of us would sell this joint Sega/Sony hardware platform; we’ll share the loss on the hardware (whatever that is, we’ll split it), combine our advertising and marketing, but we’ll each be responsible for the software sales we’ll generate. Now, at that particular point in time, Sega knew how to develop software a hell of a lot better than Sony did. They were just coming up the learning curve, so we would have benefited much more greatly, at least in my opinion, than Sony would have, at least initially, at least for a year or two. But Sega of Japan didn’t want any of that.




Sega of Japan turning down the partnership did NOT result in Kutaragi then going on to develop the PlayStation. The PlayStation prototype was already finished by mid 1992. Kalinske's meeting with Kutaragi was essentially an irrelevant aside. Kutaragi had been secretly working on the independent PlayStation at Sony even as the second round of the possible Nintendo/Sony partnership was under way, and when that fell through his prototype was the only thing that stopped the Sony execs from axing it all.

The supposed Sony/Sega partnership does not even deserve a footnote in the history of the PlayStation because it got shot down by Sega from the start. Although it seems that you are now intent on denying it, you were clearly trying to imply that Kalinkse's suggestion of a joint console development somehow had an influence on Kutaragi's development of the PlayStation, which is of course outrageous.

No, Sony being shot down by Sega and Nintendo resulted in Ken pursuing a console designed by Sony. Sony was still in negotiations with Nintendo well into late 1992.

Ken was not appointed as a manager of the Sony PlayStation project until 1993. Do you have a source to back up that he had finished a prototype in 1992?

http://www.nndb.com/people/267/000132868/


Sony Manager, PlayStation Project, Sony Computer Entertainment (1993-99)

Crom
01-09-2016, 01:30 AM
My mistake on Kutaragi being involved in that stage. Sony of Japan was shown the specs conceived by Olaf, Tom's team and Mickey Shulloff.

Kalinske addresses it more specifically here:


“We had the Sony guys and our engineers in the United States come up with specs for what this next optical-based hardware system would be. And with these specs, Olafsson, Schulhof and I went to Japan, and we met with Sony’s Ken Kutaragi.

“He said it was a great idea, and as we all lose money on hardware, let's jointly market a single system – the Sega/Sony hardware system – and whatever loss we make, we split that loss.”

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/tale-of-two-e3s-xbox-vs-sony-vs-sega/0118482



No, Sony being shot down by Sega and Nintendo resulted in Ken pursuing a console designed by Sony. Sony was still in negotiations with Nintendo well into late 1992.

Ken was not appointed as a manager of the Sony PlayStation project until 1993. Do you have a source to back up that he had finished a prototype in 1992?

http://www.nndb.com/people/267/000132868/

I don't think you are very familiar with the history of the PlayStation... the 1993 date refers to when Sony officially approved the project. It had been Kutaragi's pet project since 1988 but many Sony execs were heavily against it. Also, I don't know why you think the so-called "Nintendo PlayStation" is a different project from the final PlayStation. The Sony-Nintendo deal had Sony selling it's own stand-alone console that would support both SFC carts and CDs, and Nintendo selling a CD add-on for the SFC. When Nintendo bailed, Kutaragi kept the stand-alone design and just dropped the SFC support. The project continuously evolved from its start in 1988. There was no point in time when Kutaragi was like "Well, Nintendo and Sega don't seem interested. I guess I'll start from scratch and make a new console."

I got it from another thread here that I can't find now, but in former Sony president Norio Ohga's autobiography, he specifically mentions the date of June 24, 1992 as the meeting that decided the fate of the PlayStation. If you do a google translate of the Japanese wiki page for the PlayStation it has the details. Basically, Sony had a meeting on that day where pretty much every exec was against the continuation of the project after again being screwed over by Nintendo. Kutaragi refused to let his "baby" die and made a passionate appeal where he said that Sony would be forever laughed at if they let Nintendo get the better of them. He then revealed that he had a working prototype. Ohga was so impressed that he officially greenlit the project, which launched as the PS-X Project at the start of 1993. Famously, Kutaragi had to hide in the offices of Sony Music Entertainment due to the hostility of many of the Sony execs.

From what Kalinske has said in other interviews (or was it in Console Wars?) he approached Kutaragi at the end of 1992 or start of 1993, well after the PlayStation prototype had been developed.

gamevet
01-09-2016, 02:04 AM
Kalinske addresses it more specifically here:



http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/tale-of-two-e3s-xbox-vs-sony-vs-sega/0118482

Yeah, I've read that interview. It is in that interview where Tom says that Ken thought that it was a great idea. Why would Ken say that, unless this happened somewhere between the Phillips announcement in 1991 and the Sony NCL deal finally coming to an end in 1992?





I don't think you are very familiar with the history of the PlayStation... the 1993 date refers to when Sony officially approved the project. It had been Kutaragi's pet project since 1988 but many Sony execs were heavily against it. Also, I don't know why you think the so-called "Nintendo PlayStation" is a different project from the final PlayStation. The Sony-Nintendo deal had Sony selling it's own stand-alone console that would support both SFC carts and CDs, and Nintendo selling a CD add-on for the SFC. When Nintendo bailed, Kutaragi kept the stand-alone design and just dropped the SFC support. The project continuously evolved from its start in 1988. There was no point in time when Kutaragi was like "Well, Nintendo and Sega don't seem interested. I guess I'll start from scratch and make a new console."

I got it from another thread here that I can't find now, but in former Sony president Norio Ohga's autobiography, he specifically mentions the date of June 24, 1992 as the meeting that decided the fate of the PlayStation. If you do a google translate of the Japanese wiki page for the PlayStation it has the details. Basically, Sony had a meeting on that day where pretty much every exec was against the continuation of the project after again being screwed over by Nintendo. Kutaragi refused to let his "baby" die and made a passionate appeal where he said that Sony would be forever laughed at if they let Nintendo get the better of them. He then revealed that he had a working prototype. Ohga was so impressed that he officially greenlit the project, which launched as the PS-X Project at the start of 1993. Famously, Kutaragi had to hide in the offices of Sony Music Entertainment due to the hostility of many of the Sony execs.

From what Kalinske has said in other interviews (or was it in Console Wars?) he approached Kutaragi at the end of 1992 or start of 1993, well after the PlayStation prototype had been developed.

I'm fairly familiar with the project. The NCL deal was totally separate from the development of Sony's own PlayStation console. The only thing that those 2 projects share is the PlayStation name.

You think that Sony's choice of using an SGI owned CPU in the PlayStation design was just some sort of fluke, without having some kind of influence from Sega and Nintendo?

Crom
01-09-2016, 02:32 AM
Yeah, I've read that interview. It is in that interview where Tom says that Ken thought that it was a great idea. Why would Ken say that, unless this happened somewhere between the Phillips announcement in 1991 and the Sony NCL deal finally coming to an end in 1992?

The second round of the Nintendo deal didn't end at the end of 1992. It was before that. The dates listed on the English Wikipedia are not reliable (seriously, check the sources, they are awful). Norio Ohga was very specific about the date when it was decided that Sony would pursue an independent console.

There's no way Kalinske met Kutaragi before mid-1992. The Sega-Sony partnership for Sony Imagesoft was created on May 20, 1992, and as Kalinske has said in every interview about the subject, everything stems from that partnership.

So Sony cut off ties with Nintendo in June 1992 and decided to release its own console based on the work Kutaragi had already done, and Kalinske met with Kutaragi several months after that.



I'm fairly familiar with the project. The NCL deal was totally separate from the development of Sony's own PlayStation console. The only thing that those 2 projects share is the PlayStation name.

Got anything to back that up?

gamevet
01-09-2016, 03:11 AM
The second round of the Nintendo deal didn't end at the end of 1992. It was before that. The dates listed on the English Wikipedia are not reliable (seriously, check the sources, they are awful). Norio Ohga was very specific about the date when it was decided that Sony would pursue an independent console.

I'm not finding any sources to back that.


There's no way Kalinske met Kutaragi before mid-1992. The Sega-Sony partnership for Sony Imagesoft was created on May 20, 1992, and as Kalinske has said in every interview about the subject, everything stems from that partnership.

So Sony cut off ties with Nintendo in June 1992 and decided to release its own console based on the work Kutaragi had already done, and Kalinske met with Kutaragi several months after that.

Sony officially announced that they were supporting Sega consoles in 1992. That does not mean that Sega and Olaf were not already working together before the official announcement. Sony and Sega invested money in Digital Pictures dating back to 1991, so it's pretty obvious that they were already in a partnership before the official announcement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Pictures


Digital Pictures was an American video game developer founded in 1991 by Lode Coen, Mark Klein, Ken Melville, Anne Flaut-Reed, Kevin Welsh and Tom Zito.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2427139,00.asp


Rather than upset the apple cart even further, Kutaragi and his team were sent to work in a different division: Sony Music. Over the next two years, several things happened: Sony worked with Philips (again) to create the first DVDs. Sony almost struck a deal to work with Sega, but instead stuck with Nintendo (again). And Sony never manufactured more than about 200 Play Station consoles. This was all despite the formation of Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE) in Japan in November 1993 and Sony Computer Entertainment of America (SCEA) in May 1994.



Got anything to back that up?

Yeah, like I really need a source to back that up. The NCL Play Station was a totally separate project from what Sony did when they began developing their own PlayStation. It's totally different hardware, from the ground up.

Crom
01-09-2016, 03:50 AM
Why are you grasping for straws?

1. Sony decides to independently develop the PlayStation on June 24, 1992.

Source: Norio Ohga's autobiography: http://www.amazon.co.jp/SONY%E3%81%AE%E6%97%8B%E5%BE%8B-%E7%A7%81%E3%81%AE%E5%B1%A5%E6%AD%B4%E6%9B%B8-%E5%A4%A7%E8%B3%80-%E5%85%B8%E9%9B%84-x/dp/4532310504

2. Sega partners with Sony via Sony Imagesoft to develop Sega CD titles on on May 20, 1992.

Source: New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/21/business/company-news-sega-links-with-sony-to-make-cd-video-games.html?pagewanted=print

(Digital Pictures was an independent studio that both companies later financed.)

3. Based on his partnership with Sony via Imagesoft, Tom Kalinske and Olaf Olafsson come up with a design for a new CD-based console. They meet with Kutaragi who, according to Kalinske, expresses interest, but nothing ever comes of it because Sega of Japan isn't interested.

Source: Interview with Kalinske: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/tale-of-two-e3s-xbox-vs-sony-vs-sega/0118482

It is completely clear and unambiguous from that interview that the meeting with Kutaragi occurred after the Imagesoft partnership. You can't simply dismiss that because it doesn't fit with your distorted understanding of what happened.

Again, Sony had already decided to develop the PlayStation when Kalinske met with Kutaragi.

The only source you have for ANYTHING is a second-hand article in PCMag that doesn't list any references and isn't based on any interviews and has one jumbled sentence of relevance. That is the definition of grasping for straws.

Hint: Just because you read it on the internet doesn't mean it's true. Stick with first-hand accounts.

Team Andromeda
01-09-2016, 04:14 AM
the 32x wasn't his call, just like most hardware decisions - what was he supposed to do? he

Never said it was, but when it became clear the Saturn would make and hit its Fall 1994 date and the Jaguar and 3DO were no threats was the time to utterly drop the system. Yet the Tom pushed ahead with the 32X and thought it would be the best selling and only mass masmarket system for 1995/6 . He totally called it wrong and should admit to it.


The Scene of the Crime demo was used as a template for the development of Night Trap.

Even when you've been totally owned you still can't take it. Both Night Trap and Sewer Shark were finished and complete, ready for the 89 launch. Lets not forget it was Wolfteam and Cobra Command.Thunder Storm Fx that got the FMV Mega Cd ball rolling.


Still, it really doesn't matter where Night Trap and Sewer Shark got their start. They were the top selling Sega CD titles for the add-on in North America,

Where is the proof for this to back it up. I thought Sonic CD was the best selling Mega CD game in the USA and in Pal land .


Well, no shit. The proposed console specs for a Sony/Sega collaboration were shot down. That proposal had nothing to do with the Sony PlayStation

You just can't be real . SONY Japan do and control all the hardware . The extact same team that were put to work on the PS-X were the ones that made the Snes CD PS.


They worked on several projects during that time period. The Jupiter and early Saturn projects were scrapped, with the real Saturn hardware not going into development until 1993

The Saturn project wasn't scraped at all , just a serious redesign of the spec's and more so the CPU were changed and the move from NEC CPU to Hitachi . Hell that happens with a lot of consoles though the design phase.


Yeah, like I really need a source to back that up.

I think you do and since Tom and his best mate Olaf Olafsson were such good Pals and Tom knew of the PS , you'll think he more about SONY plans lets see what the great man himself knew....

[url=https://flic.kr/p/CNLgfQ]https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1698/24158038712_21e15a876d_h.jpg

And here's the best one yet . Not do with Spec it's was all about the price . And this is where TOM screwed up and where SEGA lost the 32 Bit battle and there's no way SEGA Japan made him say that load of crap

[url=https://flic.kr/p/CwcAns]https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1720/23970600380_f09c1b3ef9_h.jpg

bultje112
01-09-2016, 11:27 AM
Sorry the 16 bit market in the west was in steep decline and Sony millions of 32bit PS in 1995 and more so 1996 . Tom called it wrong with the 32x .

any evidence to back up that psx outsold snes and megadrive in the west in 95? I don't believe that at all.

Team Andromeda
01-09-2016, 01:57 PM
any evidence to back up that psx outsold snes and megadrive in the west in 95? I don't believe that at all.

If I must I'll post the lscan. SEGA still had the bigger market share in 1995, but sales of the PS were better . Software sales of the latter Mega Drive titles were pretty low lets face it. Games like Comic Zone. SOR III, Vectorman II and the likes just didn't sell in huge numbers . Tom called in wrong, not just in Japan but also in the west too many gamers ready ready to move on and pay for it, they just went with the PS sadly and SEGA never ever recovered from that .

That's what lost SEGA the 32 bit battle

bultje112
01-09-2016, 02:23 PM
nonsense. the psx didn't took off until 1997.

also I was walking megadrive AND snes. snes was outsold in 1995?

RedAngel
01-09-2016, 02:26 PM
1995 was still a good year for the 16 bits market, Sega sold more than 2 millions of Genesis in USA while it only sold 400.000 units of Saturns.

gamevet
01-09-2016, 11:06 PM
Why are you grasping for straws?

1. Sony decides to independently develop the PlayStation on June 24, 1992.

Source: Norio Ohga's autobiography: http://www.amazon.co.jp/SONY%E3%81%AE%E6%97%8B%E5%BE%8B-%E7%A7%81%E3%81%AE%E5%B1%A5%E6%AD%B4%E6%9B%B8-%E5%A4%A7%E8%B3%80-%E5%85%B8%E9%9B%84-x/dp/4532310504

You've read that book? I certainly can't.


2. Sega partners with Sony via Sony Imagesoft to develop Sega CD titles on on May 20, 1992.

Source: New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/21/business/company-news-sega-links-with-sony-to-make-cd-video-games.html?pagewanted=print

(Digital Pictures was an independent studio that both companies later financed.)

You just shot yourself in the foot with that article.


Sony is also planning to introduce its own Play Station CD game system, which will be available next year. The competing Sony system will be able to run Nintendo games but it is unclear whether it will be compatible with Sega. The Sega CD system, which is actually an accessory for the existing Sega Genesis System, will cost $299, about $100 more than the one Nintendo plans to release.

So, Sony is still planning to release their own Sony Play Station in 1993, according to that article, that will be able to play SNES games as well as Sony developed CD titles. Strange, considering that Sony was already working on the PSX in 1992.




3. Based on his partnership with Sony via Imagesoft, Tom Kalinske and Olaf Olafsson come up with a design for a new CD-based console. They meet with Kutaragi who, according to Kalinske, expresses interest, but nothing ever comes of it because Sega of Japan isn't interested.

Source: Interview with Kalinske: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/tale-of-two-e3s-xbox-vs-sony-vs-sega/0118482

Yeah, that has been brought up many times already in this thread.


It is completely clear and unambiguous from that interview that the meeting with Kutaragi occurred after the Imagesoft partnership. You can't simply dismiss that because it doesn't fit with your distorted understanding of what happened.

Again, Sony had already decided to develop the PlayStation when Kalinske met with Kutaragi.

According to the interview you posted from mmcvuk. it sounds like Olaf approached Sega of America right after Nintendo announced a partnership with Philips at the June 1991 CES.


“They had wanted Nintendo to use some technology that they had, and Nintendo instead chose to work with Philips. That really annoyed Sony. Olaf Olafsson [Sony Electronic Publishing President] and Micky Schulhof [President of Sony America] came to my office and said: ‘Tom, we really don’t like Nintendo. You don’t like Nintendo. We have this little studio down in Santa Monica [Imagesoft] working on video games, we don’t know what to do with it, we’d like Sega’s help in training our guys. And we think the optical disc will be the best format.’

“Well I agreed with them, I thought CDs would be the next format as well. But in those days nobody knew how to programme on optical discs. So I said, “Ok. Let’s combine our efforts. Let’s finance Imagesoft, and let’s finance this little developer called Digital Pictures, which seemed to be furthest along in knowing how to programme on optical disc.’ And they financed three titles from Digital Pictures and we did as well.

http://www.sega-16.com/2008/03/developers-den-digital-pictures/


It’s ironic that although people automatically associate Zito’s games with the Sega CD, his first attempt at bringing his “interactive television” to consoles was with Nintendo, not Sega. In 1991, Nintendo announced its “Play Station,” which would play both SNES cartridges and Sony’s own 680 meg Super Disc. The deal had originally been drawn up in 1988, and by now plans were already being drawn up to secure content for the add-on. In addition to Trilobyte’s 7th Guest, Zito’s games were being considered, specifically Sewer Shark. Mickey Schulhof, chairman of Sony U.S.A. and Peter Gruber, head of Columbia Pictures, were so fascinated by the footage of the game they had seen that they were looking to buy the company that had created it. When Zito was informed of the visit, he hopped on a plane and went to New York. He had already purchased back the rights to both titles when the Control-Vision project died, and he was itching to finally bring them to market. Schulhof signed him as a developer for the Nintendo Playstation, and Zito formed Digital Pictures so he could begin updating both Night Trap and Sewer Shark.

According to Sega-16's article about Digital Pictures, it was Sony signing him on as a developer for the Play Station (Schulhof) that allowed Tom Zito to create Digital Pictures. And if the interview with Tom from the article you posted is right, Olaf approached Tom right after Nintendo's June 1991 CES announcement that they were partnering with Philips. So, the grey area is just when did Olaf, Shulhof and Tom decide to put together a proposal for said console?



The only source you have for ANYTHING is a second-hand article in PCMag that doesn't list any references and isn't based on any interviews and has one jumbled sentence of relevance. That is the definition of grasping for straws.

Okay.....


Hint: Just because you read it on the internet doesn't mean it's true. Stick with first-hand accounts.

Such hypocrisy.

gamevet
01-10-2016, 12:20 AM
And his supporters can't have it both ways either. This was meant to be the man that stood up to SEGA Japan but then he's also meant to be the man that had no choice but to do what SEGA Japan said . Also its a myth to say the Mega Drive and Snes was doing well in the mid 90's . Both SEGA and Nintendo was seeing the 16 bit market shrink and become saturated . Nothing shows this more than the likes of Sonic... Sonic 1 and II sell millions and millions, Sonic II and S&K nothing like the numbers despite a massive push for Sonic III and a huge userbase . Truth is most consumers were ready for somthing new


The SNES was going strong well into 1996 and the Genesis was still selling very well in late 1994 and early 1995.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128453

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701305

Gentlegamer
01-10-2016, 01:36 AM
The SNES was going strong well into 1996 and the Genesis was still selling very well in late 1994 and early 1995.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128453

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701305

The fact that SNES sold so strongly against the next gen systems (like NES before it) belies the statement that consumers were ready to drop the 16-bit gen so quickly.

I hope I don't start a big fight over part of this opinion, but I think while Nintendo would still have 'won' in that time period, Sega could have kept up stronger Genesis sales if they didn't abandon it for Saturn so rapidly.

Crom
01-10-2016, 01:49 AM
You've read that book? I certainly can't.

Sorry for you?


You just shot yourself in the foot with that article.

So, Sony is still planning to release their own Sony Play Station in 1993, according to that article, that will be able to play SNES games as well as Sony developed CD titles. Strange, considering that Sony was already working on the PSX in 1992.

I know dates seem to be hard for you, but that article is from May 1992. In June 1992, Sony made the decision to go it alone. (June is one month after May.)


According to the interview you posted from mmcvuk. it sounds like Olaf approached Sega of America right after Nintendo announced a partnership with Philips at the June 1991 CES.

Where are you getting "right after" from? Are you just putting these words in at your leisure? At some point after the Nintendo-Philips debacle, Olafsson met with Kalinske and they agreed to the Imagesoft partnership. That partnership was finalized in May 1992. Don't make dates up just because they suit your argument.


http://www.sega-16.com/2008/03/developers-den-digital-pictures/

According to Sega-16's article about Digital Pictures, it was Sony signing him on as a developer for the Play Station (Schulhof) that allowed Tom Zito to create Digital Pictures. And if the interview with Tom from the article you posted is right, Olaf approached Tom right after Nintendo's June 1991 CES announcement that they were partnering with Philips. So, the grey area is just when did Olaf, Shulhof and Tom decide to put together a proposal for said console?

That quote makes no reference to Sega. "Olaf approached Tom right after Nintendo's June 1991 CES announcement"?? Again, you have completely made that up. There is NO evidence of when they first got together.

Once again, you haven't provided any evidence at all to these claims you're making. You are reading three layers between the lines to try to support your whacked out interpretation and are ignoring first-hand accounts that clearly show you are wrong. Just give up already.

:shame:

Crom
01-10-2016, 02:19 AM
The fact that SNES sold so strongly against the next gen systems (like NES before it) belies the statement that consumers were ready to drop the 16-bit gen so quickly.

I hope I don't start a big fight over part of this opinion, but I think while Nintendo would still have 'won' in that time period, Sega could have kept up stronger Genesis sales if they didn't abandon it for Saturn so rapidly.

Of course it's a complicated situation and we'll never know what might have been, but Sega seemed pretty focused on being the first out the gate in the 32-bit era. One of the Genesis's big advantages was being released a full 2 years before the SNES. I generally think the timing of the Saturn release was right to overcome Nintendo, it's just that there were other very severe problems that prevented the Saturn from becoming successful. Look at the PlayStation: it also came out a year before the N64 and we all know what happened there.

Nintendo "won" the end of the 16-bit era, but the late release of the N64 cost them severely. I can't see Sega as having been better off focusing on the Genesis for another year.

The Genesis's late releases, such as Comix Zone, also didn't sell well. Peter Morawiec said "Comix Zone hadn’t performed as well as we all hoped (the PS1 stole our thunder)".

Gentlegamer
01-10-2016, 03:00 AM
but the late release of the N64 cost them severely.
That's not what cost Nintendo. N64 was outselling PlayStation during most of 97. It was the drought of games and the huge third party push Sony received that hurt Nintendo.


The Genesis's late releases, such as Comix Zone, also didn't sell well. Peter Morawiec said "Comix Zone hadn’t performed as well as we all hoped (the PS1 stole our thunder)".

Was Comix Zone the type of game expected to be competitive with Donkey Kong Country?

Team Andromeda
01-10-2016, 04:50 AM
nonsense. the psx didn't took off until 1997.

also I was walking megadrive AND snes. snes was outsold in 1995?

This place sometimes just makes me laugh ... I thought SEGA was meant to have killed the Mega Drive in 1995, now its meant to be one of the best selling systems in 1995 and 1996 . In 1996 PS sales were really good and strong and helped by games like Resident Evil and Crash ECT


The SNES was going strong well into 1996 and the Genesis was still selling very well in late 1994 and early 1995.

PS was selling better and its software was dominating all the charts in late 95 and 96 . Snes was always going to last that bit longer that the MD given it came out 2 years latter and also the fact that SGI had to delay its N64 chipset by over a year.


So, Sony is still planning to release their own Sony Play Station in 1993, according to that article, that will be able to play SNES games as well as Sony developed CD titles

Yes The deal with Nintendo was to provide a CD drive for the Snes, but also has part of the deal SONY was also going to bring out its own separate stand alone machine. Sony did push ahead and wanted to bring out its Snes PS, but then that was dropped

RedAngel
01-11-2016, 03:47 PM
http://i68.tinypic.com/25akzv8.gif

It seems that 32 bits overcame 16 bits in 1996 not in 1995. In 1996 the sales of 32 bits hardware and software was more or less the same than 16 bits hardware and software in 1995.

Team Andromeda
01-12-2016, 11:35 AM
16 bit Hardare and software sales were in decline , even in the West . Tom screwed up and thought price would win out , while SONY just cleaned up at the end of 95 and all through 96 .

stu
01-12-2016, 02:54 PM
Sorry for you?



I know dates seem to be hard for you, but that article is from May 1992. In June 1992, Sony made the decision to go it alone. (June is one month after May.)



Where are you getting "right after" from? Are you just putting these words in at your leisure? At some point after the Nintendo-Philips debacle, Olafsson met with Kalinske and they agreed to the Imagesoft partnership. That partnership was finalized in May 1992. Don't make dates up just because they suit your argument.



That quote makes no reference to Sega. "Olaf approached Tom right after Nintendo's June 1991 CES announcement"?? Again, you have completely made that up. There is NO evidence of when they first got together.

Once again, you haven't provided any evidence at all to these claims you're making. You are reading three layers between the lines to try to support your whacked out interpretation and are ignoring first-hand accounts that clearly show you are wrong. Just give up already.

:shame:

So MrKnowItAll, I guess judging by the obnoxious and smug tone of your posts that you have cast iron proof that Kalinske is full of shit? You know, like an interview with either Olaf Olafsson and/or Micky Schulhof (the 2 Sony America guys that Kalinske claims to have had a meeting with) where they categorically denied and refuted that there had ever been any discussion of working together with Sega on a 32 bit CD based console. (independently of Sony Japan and the PSX development)

Otherwise you are just some anonymous nobody on "teh internets" making baseless claims, frankly between listening to someone who actually worked in the industry (Kalinske) or listen to some moron off the internet (YOU), I'd rather give the industry veteran the benefit of the doubt.

gamevet
01-12-2016, 10:54 PM
I know dates seem to be hard for you, but that article is from May 1992. In June 1992, Sony made the decision to go it alone. (June is one month after May.)

The article states that Sony plans on releasing a SNES compatible Play Station in 1993. The article I'd posted from NG (post #88) covers the deal when Nintendo, Philips and Sony agree to allow Sony to release their own independent Play Station console the following year.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?30798-Classic-Gaming-Quarterly-takes-a-look-back-at-the-NA-launch-of-the-Sega-Saturn&p=738297&viewfull=1#post738297


Throughout 1991 and 1992, development of the Playstation progressed on the general understanding that an agreement would be reached over the licensing of Nintendo CD software. At the end of 1992, Nintendo, PHilips and Sony signed a deal whereby Sony's PlayStation would be able to run SNES CD-ROMs but left Nintendo with the sole rights to all its game, including CDs.

Why did Sony continue to pursue such a deal, if they were already working on the PSX in 1992?




Where are you getting "right after" from? Are you just putting these words in at your leisure? At some point after the Nintendo-Philips debacle, Olafsson met with Kalinske and they agreed to the Imagesoft partnership. That partnership was finalized in May 1992. Don't make dates up just because they suit your argument.

That quote makes no reference to Sega. "Olaf approached Tom right after Nintendo's June 1991 CES announcement"?? Again, you have completely made that up. There is NO evidence of when they first got together.

Once again, you haven't provided any evidence at all to these claims you're making. You are reading three layers between the lines to try to support your whacked out interpretation and are ignoring first-hand accounts that clearly show you are wrong. Just give up already.

It makes no sense for Olaf and company to still be fuming about Nintendo's deal with Philips, 11 months after the June 1991 announcement, especially considering that Sony was still hammering out a deal with Nintendo up to the end of 1992. Sony Imagesoft had already set up a deal with Digital Pictures and were left sitting there waiting for the green light. You don't think that Sony Imagesoft wasn't already looking towards Sega, after the Nintendo deal was starting to fall apart in June of 1991?

And here's the quote from your link.


They had wanted Nintendo to use some technology that they had, and Nintendo instead chose to work with Philips. That really annoyed Sony. Olaf Olafsson [Sony Electronic Publishing President] and Micky Schulhof [President of Sony America] came to my office and said: ‘Tom, we really don’t like Nintendo. You don’t like Nintendo. We have this little studio down in Santa Monica [Imagesoft] working on video games, we don’t know what to do with it, we’d like Sega’s help in training our guys. And we think the optical disc will be the best format.’

“Well I agreed with them, I thought CDs would be the next format as well. But in those days nobody knew how to programme on optical discs. So I said, “Ok. Let’s combine our efforts. Let’s finance Imagesoft, and let’s finance this little developer called Digital Pictures, which seemed to be furthest along in knowing how to programme on optical disc.’ And they financed three titles from Digital Pictures and we did as well.

So here's Olaf and Shulhof sitting around waiting on a green light from Nintendo and Sony, to continue working on getting their Digital Pictures project rolling for the Play Station.

Yes, Sony Imagesoft and Sega made an official announcement that they had signed on to publish titles for Sega console in May of 1992, but that does not mean that they weren't already working together before that.

Team Andromeda
01-13-2016, 07:55 AM
So MrKnowItAll, I guess judging by the obnoxious and smug tone of your posts that you have cast iron proof that Kalinske is full of shit?

Just look at his countless interviews why continually contradicts himself . You want 'full of shit'. I tell you what full of shit is .. is ripping into the N64 for being Cart and then trying to make out no matter how great the Saturn , the PSX or N64 were the 32X would out sell them all thanks to price , nice one Tom (oh and btw TOM 32X was Cart too) .


like an interview with either Olaf Olafsson and/or Micky Schulhof (the 2 Sony America guys that Kalinske claims to have had a meeting with)

Claims lol that says it all. Looking over that , we need to see someone from SONY Japan to back up Tom's claims and after all these years there's noone at all .


between listening to someone who actually worked in the industry (Kalinske)

What a proven lair and spinner, yeah right .


Why did Sony continue to pursue such a deal, if they were already working on the PSX in 1992

Becasue Nintendo had 90% of Japan and SONY wanted a bit of the SuperFamicom cake

Crom
01-13-2016, 11:55 AM
So MrKnowItAll, I guess judging by the obnoxious and smug tone of your posts that you have cast iron proof that Kalinske is full of shit? You know, like an interview with either Olaf Olafsson and/or Micky Schulhof (the 2 Sony America guys that Kalinske claims to have had a meeting with) where they categorically denied and refuted that there had ever been any discussion of working together with Sega on a 32 bit CD based console. (independently of Sony Japan and the PSX development)

Otherwise you are just some anonymous nobody on "teh internets" making baseless claims, frankly between listening to someone who actually worked in the industry (Kalinske) or listen to some moron off the internet (YOU), I'd rather give the industry veteran the benefit of the doubt.

What? I didn't even say anything about Kalinske being full of shit, lol. You are way off base. My point was that gamevet is completely misinterpreting the facts in order to argue some convoluted theory that the PlayStation somehow resulted from Kalinske's joint proposal to Kutaragi (Kalinske has NEVER said this, btw).

I'm not doubting Kalinske's version of events. I have no idea what you read, but it wasn't anything I wrote.

+1 for reading comprehension?

Crom
01-13-2016, 12:01 PM
The article states that Sony plans on releasing a SNES compatible Play Station in 1993. The article I'd posted from NG (post #88) covers the deal when Nintendo, Philips and Sony agree to allow Sony to release their own independent Play Station console the following year.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?30798-Classic-Gaming-Quarterly-takes-a-look-back-at-the-NA-launch-of-the-Sega-Saturn&p=738297&viewfull=1#post738297

Why did Sony continue to pursue such a deal, if they were already working on the PSX in 1992?


Hi, sorry, those do not trump the president of Sony writing in his memoir the exact date of the meeting where the decision was made.

Don't put so much faith in the poorly researched articles of American gaming magazines when it comes to the internal workings of foreign companies. They probably got their news 6 months after the fact and half of it was wrong.

stu
01-13-2016, 04:05 PM
Just look at his countless interviews why continually contradicts himself . You want 'full of shit'. I tell you what full of shit is .. is ripping into the N64 for being Cart and then trying to make out no matter how great the Saturn , the PSX or N64 were the 32X would out sell them all thanks to price , nice one Tom (oh and btw TOM 32X was Cart too) .

FFS how many times do people have to point this out to you before it gets through your thick head. Tom Kalinske was a glorified SALESMAN. He was employed by Sega to PROMOTE Sega products and make positive PR statements, on order to allow his employer to sell larger volumes of it's products Would you rather said something like this?

"Well we have just launched a new overpriced addon for the Genesis but I don't want you to buy it because I am currently being strong armed by my superiors in Japan into releasing yet another game console in 6 months time so please buy that instead."

Would that make you happier TA? He's neither contradicting himself or lying, he is simply making positive statements that give the impression that everything is peachy and wonderful so that emotionally invested fanboys like you will buy everything that Sega makes. That's what promoters do.


Claims lol that says it all. Looking over that , we need to see someone from SONY Japan to back up Tom's claims and after all these years there's noone at all .
What a proven lair and spinner, yeah right .


WTF are you babbling on about. Why the feck would execs at Sony Japan know what was going on in a meeting between Kalinske and the Sony US guys. AFAIK the only person at Sony Japan who might have knowledge is Ken Kuturagi, how about you make yourself useful and go snag an interview with him so that you can "prove Kalinske wrong" and keep your stupid crusade going on.



What? I didn't even say anything about Kalinske being full of shit, lol. You are way off base. My point was that gamevet is completely misinterpreting the facts in order to argue some convoluted theory that the PlayStation somehow resulted from Kalinske's joint proposal to Kutaragi (Kalinske has NEVER said this, btw).

I'm not doubting Kalinske's version of events. I have no idea what you read, but it wasn't anything I wrote.

+1 for reading comprehension?

LOL I have comprehension issues? Where did Gamevet indicate he thought that the system discussed by the Sony US guys and Kalinske was the same as either of the Playstation projects going on at Sony Japan? In fact he said this to you when you started accusing him:

Quote: "A concept drawing between Ken Kutaragi, Sony Imagesoft and Tom's team had nothing to do with the eventual development of the PS-X. How you came to that conclusion is just mind numbing. You're basically putting words in my mouth that I'd never said.
Ken Kutaragi designed the 3D chip that would be the center point of PS-X development. How you came to the conclusion that the concept drawing was being suggested as a part of that development is on you. The article I posted even stated that Sony went it alone and began development of the PlayStation on their own."

Seems like you need the review on Comprehension 101 as is looks like you failed it first time.

Crom
01-13-2016, 05:01 PM
LOL I have comprehension issues? Where did Gamevet indicate he thought that the system discussed by the Sony US guys and Kalinske was the same as either of the Playstation projects going on at Sony Japan? In fact he said this to you when you started accusing him:

Quote: "A concept drawing between Ken Kutaragi, Sony Imagesoft and Tom's team had nothing to do with the eventual development of the PS-X. How you came to that conclusion is just mind numbing. You're basically putting words in my mouth that I'd never said.
Ken Kutaragi designed the 3D chip that would be the center point of PS-X development. How you came to the conclusion that the concept drawing was being suggested as a part of that development is on you. The article I posted even stated that Sony went it alone and began development of the PlayStation on their own."

Seems like you need the review on Comprehension 101 as is looks like you failed it first time.

You seem a bit unhinged. First, gamevet acknowledged that he was wrong with the statement you quoted:


My mistake on Kutaragi being involved in that stage. Sony of Japan was shown the specs conceived by Olaf, Tom's team and Mickey Shulloff.

And then said that Kutaragi developing the PlayStation was a result of Sega turning town Kalinske's plan:


No, Sony being shot down by Sega and Nintendo resulted in Ken pursuing a console designed by Sony. Sony was still in negotiations with Nintendo well into late 1992.

Ken was not appointed as a manager of the Sony PlayStation project until 1993. Do you have a source to back up that he had finished a prototype in 1992?

His last statement there showed he wasn't familiar with the June 24, 1992 meeting, which almost certainly occurred before Kalinske approached Kutaragi.

By the way, gamevet, the first page of Ch. 32 of Console Wars and then Ch. 37 also mentions the June 24, 1992 meeting (which I assume Blake Harris got from Ohga's memoir):


But that all changed at the pivotal management meeting on June 24, 1992.

After Sony’s board of directors had made it clear that they had little interest in moving forward, Ken Kutaragi stunned them by revealing the console he had been secretly working on for months. In early 1992, he internally recruited the engineers behind Sony’s System G (a special-effects engine that retailed for $250,000), and persuaded them to help him build a new and improved system capable of rendering 3-D graphics.

It goes on to describe the Sony board (who were in opposition to Kutaragi) as still "playing tag" with Nintendo for the next few months, despite Kutaragi working on the independent console. That might explain those dates you're finding. It also gives the date of October 12, 1992 as the time when Olafsson and Kalinske began discussing a partnership between the two companies (also in Ch. 37).

Granted, it's Console Wars and is full of errors, but it agrees with the other dates and is quite specific.

stu
01-13-2016, 06:20 PM
You seem a bit unhinged.


I'm sorry I'll try to be a little less Unhinged in future, just for you! :D

On with your points:


First, gamevet acknowledged that he was wrong with the statement you quoted:


Umm no actually he just said he was wrong with regard to Kutaragi being involved at that stage, however once the Sony US guys had met with Kalinske, Kutaragi was then asked for input, which I believe you posted.




And then said that Kutaragi developing the PlayStation was a result of Sega turning town Kalinske's plan:

His last statement there showed he wasn't familiar with the June 24, 1992 meeting, which almost certainly occurred before Kalinske approached Kutaragi.


Um wrong again, that's you rewriting what Gamevet wrote originally in order to convey that. All he said was that Sony attempted to collaborate with both Nintendo and Sega on developing a game console, separately and at different points in time, however both efforts came to nothing and Sony ended up going it alone. No-one has attempted to say that the the final specification of the PlayStation is a direct result of Sega turning down Kalinske's plan, that's just your comprehension issues at work there.

Crom
01-13-2016, 09:14 PM
Um wrong again, that's you rewriting what Gamevet wrote originally in order to convey that.

Jeez, will it help if I just quote him? Oh wait, I already did that.

He said "Sony being shot down by Sega and Nintendo resulted in Ken pursuing a console designed by Sony." There, I didn't rewrite anything.

My whole point is that the evidence actually indicates Kutaragi was already doing that before Kalinske approached him.

What exactly is your point again...?? :daze:

stu
01-14-2016, 12:40 AM
Jeez, will it help if I just quote him? Oh wait, I already did that.

He said "Sony being shot down by Sega and Nintendo resulted in Ken pursuing a console designed by Sony." There, I didn't rewrite anything.

My whole point is that the evidence actually indicates Kutaragi was already doing that before Kalinske approached him.

What exactly is your point again...?? :daze:

So you disagreed with Gamevet's use of the phrase "resulted in" in that statement? Wow and you ask me what my point was. Has it ever occurred to you that he might not meant it "literally"? But whatever. :confused:

Crom
01-14-2016, 05:43 AM
So you disagreed with Gamevet's use of the phrase "resulted in" in that statement? Wow and you ask me what my point was. Has it ever occurred to you that he might not meant it "literally"? But whatever. :confused:

First you mistakenly attacked me for thinking that I said something negative about Kalinske, and now you think I'm nitpicking about semantics? Please look over the last few pages of this thread. gamevet has been trying to argue in many posts that Kalinske approached Kutaragi before Kutaragi had begun to develop the independent PlayStation. Are you agreeing with him? If so, why don't you explain why? Otherwise, I don't really think you're adding anything to the discussion.

Why does this matter? Well, whether gamevet intends it or not, if Kalinske DID approach Kutaragi with his ideal console specs before Kutaragi had begun to develop the PlayStation, then that might have had some influence on him. As I argue, that's not likely since it's pretty clear that Kutaragi had already begun development and already had an early prototype.

Team Andromeda
01-14-2016, 06:13 AM
FFS how many times do people have to point this out to you before it gets through your thick head. Tom Kalinske was a glorified SALESMAN. He was employed by Sega to PROMOTE Sega products and make positive PR statements, on order to allow his employer to sell larger volumes of it's products Would you rather said something like this?

So nothing more than a YES man . So then the move to pack in Sonic with the Genesis, the move to set up STI the move to have Sonic II developed in USA and everything else Tom loves to take credit for, was in fact all SOJ moves and ideas and Tom just said yes to it all.


Would that make you happier TA? He's neither contradicting himself or lying

I just wished he told the truth and he thought price would be key. I'll have far more time and respect for the man if just admitted to that.


Why the feck would execs at Sony Japan know what was going on in a meeting between Kalinske and the Sony US guys

SONY America is subsidiary can you grasp that for starters ? Only SONY Japan does all the Hardware and all the R&D . So with out SONY Japan on-board there's not only no deal, there's no hardware to deal with . Can you grasp that ?.

So less of the insults and swearing and try and come back with some facts or any sort of interview from SONY Japan ex staff that back up TOM's claims, hell even a interview with Olaf would be handy too

stu
01-14-2016, 02:46 PM
First you mistakenly attacked me for thinking that I said something negative about Kalinske, and now you think I'm nitpicking about semantics? Please look over the last few pages of this thread. gamevet has been trying to argue in many posts that Kalinske approached Kutaragi before Kutaragi had begun to develop the independent PlayStation. Are you agreeing with him? If so, why don't you explain why? Otherwise, I don't really think you're adding anything to the discussion.

Why does this matter? Well, whether gamevet intends it or not, if Kalinske DID approach Kutaragi with his ideal console specs before Kutaragi had begun to develop the PlayStation, then that might have had some influence on him. As I argue, that's not likely since it's pretty clear that Kutaragi had already begun development and already had an early prototype.

I don't see in any of Gamevet's posts in this thread where he said that the final specs for the Playstation were finalized after Kalinske's meeting/discussion, in fact its clear from his posts that he never thought that and just proves its just your comprehension skills that are lacking.

Here he responds to TA.

Quote: "What are you babbling on about?
Nobody said that the Playstation could have possibly been a Sony/Sega collaboration. The headlines may have painted a Sega Playstation, but that was not what Tom was saying. The console could have been called a Sega Uranus, for all we know.
Ken continued his dream of making a console, and he decided to keep the name Playstation, since Sony's Nintendo Play Station was a huge burn for them. Meanwhile, Sega began working on the Saturn in 1993."

And he posted this after you started twisting and misrepresenting what he was saying.

Quote: "A concept drawing between Ken Kutaragi, Sony Imagesoft and Tom's team had nothing to do with the eventual development of the PS-X. How you came to that conclusion is just mind numbing. You're basically putting words in my mouth that I'd never said.
Ken Kutaragi designed the 3D chip that would be the center point of PS-X development. How you came to the conclusion that the concept drawing was being suggested as a part of that development is on you. The article I posted even stated that Sony went it alone and began development of the PlayStation on their own.

But, whatever you want to say, I'm done with this.



So nothing more than a YES man . So then the move to pack in Sonic with the Genesis, the move to set up STI the move to have Sonic II developed in USA and everything else Tom loves to take credit for, was in fact all SOJ moves and ideas and Tom just said yes to it all.

LOL you are freakin unbelievable! No wonder people on here say you lack comprehension skills. I say that Kalinske is a salesman and now you twist what I said to make it seem like I called him a YES man so that you can unload another torrent of bullshit.



I just wished he told the truth and he thought price would be key. I'll have far more time and respect for the man if just admitted to that.

Kalinske always consistently stated that price would be key you idiot, and he was totally right. Kalinske has always gone "on record" as saying the launching the Saturn in the US was going to be an issue due to the price and sure enough when the Saturn launched in May 1995 at $399 ($449 with a game) it was too expensive, why else would Sega drop the price 2 times in less than a year? First it dropped to $299 to counter the Playstation launch, then early 1996 it dropped to $249. The only logical reason for these price cuts is that the volume of sales were too low and Sega needed to push them up with price cuts. The US market has always been more price sensitive than the Japanese one.

But please do carry on cherry picking statements Kalinske made and twisting them to suit your own agenda and narrative.




SONY America is subsidiary can you grasp that for starters ? Only SONY Japan does all the Hardware and all the R&D . So with out SONY Japan on-board there's not only no deal, there's no hardware to deal with . Can you grasp that ? .


Again how many times do people have to point out that it never went to the management at Sony Japan BECAUSE SEGA JAPAN SAID NO TO THE DEAL! Sega of America is a subsidiary and was heavily involved in conducting R&D, how the heck was the BlackBelt project done? They looked at the 3DO hardware and the SGI hardware, how else would they have been able to form an opinion on either of those with out RESEARCHING it first.




So less of the insults and swearing and try and come back with some facts or any sort of interview from SONY Japan ex staff that back up TOM's claims, hell even a interview with Olaf would be handy too


How come? I'm not the one libelling and slandering the guy by calling him a liar and a bullshitter and all the tirade of other insults that you've hurled at the guy. You're the one saying none of what he's said is true so I guess it's time for you to put up or shut up and prove him wrong with some cast iron evidence because until you do you're just trolling the entire board every time you start up this crap.

Crom
01-14-2016, 03:28 PM
I don't see in any of Gamevet's posts in this thread where he said that the final specs for the Playstation were finalized after Kalinske's meeting/discussion, in fact its clear from his posts that he never thought that and just proves its just your comprehension skills that are lacking.


Now I don't even know what you are talking about. Of course you don't see that in any of his posts because he never said it! :rofl:

To hold your hand some more, the last two pages of the thread have been us arguing about when exactly Kalinske met with Kutaragi, and when Kutaragi began developing the standalone PlayStation. As I said in my previous post, regardless of what gamevet's point was, this is an interesting question concerning the development of the PlayStation.

I have no idea why you are even posting in this thread. :ok:

Team Andromeda
01-14-2016, 03:39 PM
I say that Kalinske is a salesman and now you twist what I said to make it seem like I called him a YES man

So what was he ? A yes man to SOJ or did just what they said and wanted and did he lair in his interview with Retrogamer or with Edge back in 1994 ?


Kalinske always consistently stated that price would be key you idiot, and he was totally right

That's why the 32X was a utter flop and the PS saw lovely sales in 1995 and didn't look back in 1996 . Nice one Tom . And no Price isn't always key at all just ask Apple


why else would Sega drop the price 2 times in less than a year

To try and get sales . I guess that's why Nintendo had to drop the price of the N64 and Microsoft had to drop the price of the XBox mere months after launch.


went to the management at Sony Japan BECAUSE SEGA JAPAN SAID NO TO THE DEAL

Then there's no deal . SONY Japan do and handle the hardware. SONY was very different from SEGA . SONY for the outset was a Japan based corp, SEGA wasn't and SONY back inthe 80's and 90's did all the R&D and all the Hardware in Japan. SEGA was quite a bit different in that it did allow SEGA America to handle some Hardware R&D


How come? I'm not the one libelling and slandering the guy by calling him a liar

Well he is and is on record as the Edge and recent Retrogamer interview showed . Looking over that I take it you or anyone else for that matter can't post a interview with any of SONY Japan ex staff to back up Tom's Claims.


Oh and post with no insults or swearing that be very nice . Funny how it's ok for you to posts insults as well (don't ever make out I posts insults ever again, I much rather leave that to the likes of you thanks )

stu
01-14-2016, 06:20 PM
I have no idea why you are even posting in this thread. :ok:


Hey I feel the same about you. I mean spending 2 pages arguing over someone's use of a phrase and that he got one little fragment of information in the wrong order. Glad you feel better now.


So what was he ? A yes man to SOJ or did just what they said and wanted and did he lair in his interview with Retrogamer or with Edge back in 1994 ?

LOL wut? Are you babbling to yourself now or is that an actual question?




That's why the 32X was a utter flop and the PS saw lovely sales in 1995 and didn't look back in 1996 . Nice one Tom . And no Price isn't always key at all just ask Apple

Funny, I didn't think Apple either was or is a console manufacturer. Or are you talking about Pippin, bit of an epic fail if you ask me...lol. Oh and that "utter flop" shipped/sold 600,000 units in 2 months. How many did the Saturn sell in its first 2 months on sale?




To try and get sales . I guess that's why Nintendo had to drop the price of the N64 and Microsoft had to drop the price of the XBox mere months after launch.

So they couldn't sell it at the higher price then? Glad we agree on something.




Then there's no deal . SONY Japan do and handle the hardware. SONY was very different from SEGA . SONY for the outset was a Japan based corp, SEGA wasn't and SONY back inthe 80's and 90's did all the R&D and all the Hardware in Japan. SEGA was quite a bit different in that it did allow SEGA America to handle some Hardware R&D

That there was no deal is not the point. You still can't conclusively prove Kalinske wrong and that no meeting took place with the Sony US guys. You lose.




Well he is and is on record as the Edge and recent Retrogamer interview showed . Looking over that I take it you or anyone else for that matter can't post a interview with any of SONY Japan ex staff to back up Tom's Claims.


Oh and post with no insults or swearing that be very nice . Funny how it's ok for you to posts insults as well (don't ever make out I posts insults ever again, I much rather leave that to the likes of you thanks )

Still waiting for that conclusive proof TA. After all you're a video game expert historian. You know everything.

Knuckle Duster
01-14-2016, 06:35 PM
Oh boy, this bullshit tangent again.

http://threadbombing.com/data/media/29/fthisthread.gif



What?! Things are just getting good.

https://media.giphy.com/media/RHiD0K65NxxLO/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

Still think it's getting good?


There are users on this board so pedantic and anal about Sega's internal politics, that whenever these usual suspects start to show up comment, you just know it's going to melt down into a mundane, multi-page circle jerk that nobody in their right mind wants to look at.

DJ_Convoy
01-14-2016, 06:37 PM
Yes. The phrase "let's agree to disagree" comes to mind. None of us worked there, none of us know for certain, and no one is going to change anyone else's mind.

You don't always have to be right, in life. You don't always have to "win" an argument.

Crom
01-14-2016, 06:52 PM
Hey I feel the same about you. I mean spending 2 pages arguing over someone's use of a phrase and that he got one little fragment of information in the wrong order. Glad you feel better now.

I'm posting in this thread because I'm sharing interesting information about the development of the PlayStation that some readers might enjoy. I think gamevet was doing the same. As far as I can tell, the only thing you've contributed are pointless insults (which began when you completely misread what I wrote).

IrishNinja
01-14-2016, 07:01 PM
Still think it's getting good?

There are users on this board so pedantic and anal about Sega's internal politics, that whenever these usual suspects start to show up comment, you just know it's going to melt down into a mundane, multi-page circle jerk that nobody in their right mind wants to look at.

yeah, fair call - this was the opposite of good

Team Andromeda
01-15-2016, 05:12 AM
or is that an actual question

Be nice if you answered the questions , So we try again .

1) Was Tom a Yes man to SEGA Japan ? .

2) Was Tom lying in 1994 (when he said SEGA had better tech) or lying to Retro gamer last year when saying he knew from day one, that the Saturn spec wasn't good enough

Simple yes or no answers to both please


Funny, I didn't think Apple either was or is a console manufacturer

Trying to be clever . Apple shows that even in the USA, that price isn't always key and hell even in the console battles we see that; The more expensive PS 2 cleans up over the DC or the nice and cheap Cube,even in the USA. What you really got to do is make people feel that they have to buy and want your product. Tom called it badly wrong and it wasn't price, but more people being bored of the 16 bit machines and wanting something new.


So they couldn't sell it at the higher price then?

Cutting price isn't always a factor , just look at the DC, Vita Ect for that. MS and NCL had to act to Sony sales


You still can't conclusively prove Kalinske wrong and that no meeting took place with the Sony US guys

I do have to laugh at that. When you or gamevet haven't even produced a single interview with even any of these ex SONY US staff to back up Tom's claims for starters. Looking over that (and since you go on about comprehension ) I've even said Tom and his so called USA SONY mates could have talks. Its SONY Japan that does the hardware the R&D. You see the big diff with something like the SGI deal, is that wasn't just SEGA people saying they were offered the N64 chipset, but also the SGI hardware guys too, backing it up

Show me any proof from the Sony PS Hardware people that SEGA were offered the PS chipset . It's takes more that one person to collaborate a story or set of events.


Still waiting for that conclusive proof TA.

That be nice.. I'm still waiting for you to show me where I've meant to have done personal insults on here , when it seems you are the one that's doing insults.

Knuckle Duster
01-15-2016, 11:46 AM
I wouldn't look at Vita for any price cut argument. Sony didn't support it, lost retail shelves, and most people went digital for the games. Memory cards are proprietary and stayed expensive, and physical releases became preferred because the game prices drop to like 50% off compared to the PSN game download.

It's a disaster... much like this thread about Jibbajaba's video... No wonder Joe Redifer left these forums.

Team Andromeda
01-15-2016, 12:16 PM
I wouldn't look at Vita for any price cut argument. Sony didn't support it, lost retail shelves

SONY at the start did and pushed it hard , but it lost out and price in the end counted for nothing . DC which was way cheaper than the PS2 lost out , even with big price cuts by SEGA. Price is a factor, but isn't the be and end all . You got to make people want or feel they need to have to own your product.

Knuckle Duster
01-15-2016, 01:13 PM
SONY at the start did and pushed it hard , but it lost out and price in the end counted for nothing . DC which was way cheaper than the PS2 lost out , even with big price cuts by SEGA. Price is a factor, but isn't the be and end all . You got to make people want or feel they need to have to own your product.

Sony killed it before it launched. They announced a high price and put in expensive proprietary memory cards. 3DS was already too-expensive junk, and Sony didn't capitalize on that opportunity.

I bought one, and it is the last piece of shit from Sony I will ever purchase.

gamevet
01-15-2016, 10:14 PM
Jeez, will it help if I just quote him? Oh wait, I already did that.

He said "Sony being shot down by Sega and Nintendo resulted in Ken pursuing a console designed by Sony." There, I didn't rewrite anything.

My whole point is that the evidence actually indicates Kutaragi was already doing that before Kalinske approached him.

What exactly is your point again...?? :daze:

Sony didn't have anyone to partner with for hardware, so they did go it alone. It's not that complicated.

Providing a link to a book written in moon language isn't exactly evidence.

IrishNinja
01-15-2016, 10:20 PM
It's a disaster... much like this thread about Jibbajaba's video... No wonder Joe Redifer left these forums.

did he? i just figured dude was busy since game sack started running more often

Crom
01-15-2016, 10:24 PM
Sony didn't have anyone to partner with for hardware, so they did go it alone. It's not that complicated.

Providing a link to a book written in moon language isn't exactly evidence.


By the way, gamevet, the first page of Ch. 32 of Console Wars and then Ch. 37 also mentions the June 24, 1992 meeting (which I assume Blake Harris got from Ohga's memoir):


But that all changed at the pivotal management meeting on June 24, 1992.

After Sony’s board of directors had made it clear that they had little interest in moving forward, Ken Kutaragi stunned them by revealing the console he had been secretly working on for months. In early 1992, he internally recruited the engineers behind Sony’s System G (a special-effects engine that retailed for $250,000), and persuaded them to help him build a new and improved system capable of rendering 3-D graphics.

It goes on to describe the Sony board (who were in opposition to Kutaragi) as still "playing tag" with Nintendo for the next few months, despite Kutaragi working on the independent console. That might explain those dates you're finding. It also gives the date of October 12, 1992 as the time when Olafsson and Kalinske began discussing a partnership between the two companies (also in Ch. 37).

it's English... what more do you want :roll:

gamevet
01-16-2016, 02:48 AM
it's English... what more do you want :roll:

You can roll your eyes all you want. What you have quoted, only suggests that Ken persuaded Sony's System G team to help him in early 1992, but Sony did not get the ball rolling on the PSX project until 1993, and were still in litigations with Nintendo until the end of 1992. Sony even went so far as to produce 200 working prototypes of their Sony Play Station, that they had planned on releasing in 1993.

Kataku brought up a pretty good point about the book, which suggested that Sega of Japan was at fault for letting every opportunity that Sega of America presented them fall to the wayside.

http://kotaku.com/console-wars-the-kotaku-book-review-1576289967


The narrative even goes so far as to suggest that the mere existence of Saturn's competition—the Nintendo 64 and Sony's original PlayStation—was Sega of Japan's fault. Kalinske, Harris tells us, orchestrated partnerships that would have essentially put the technology behind these into Sega products instead, but his Japanese bosses dismissed the plans with little to no explanation, forever dooming Sega into a distant third and, we're left on our own to conclude, ultimately out of the hardware business entirely.

Team Andromeda
01-16-2016, 06:10 AM
Sony killed it before it launched. They announced a high price and put in expensive proprietary memory cards

So why even bother to bring it out . SONY tried hard with the PS vita and overlooking the proprietary cards (that scam never hurt Apple btw) the Vita cost a bit because it was pretty cutting EDGE . You can't just expect corps to give this tech away . I think the Vita is a great HH and bit gutted it never really took off it the west. If Price was key the DC would have cleaned up against the PS2, the Cube would have also sold way better and more than the XBox and the i-phone be left in the likes of HTC and Samsung's wake .

It's not all about price , you got to make people want your product and TOM totally and utterly cocked that up both with the Saturn and the 32X and with out SEGA Japan Sonic, the great sales man wasn't really that great at all.

RedAngel
01-16-2016, 08:34 AM
Price is very important but also perceived value. Apple products are expensive but they have great design, great branding, great marketing, intuitive software and very good hardware (perhaps not the best but always very good).
$399 for a Saturn was too much and Tom Kalinske knew it. 32X had a better debut than Saturn in the USA (600.000 vs 400.000) but it only had sense in a scenario that was not the real one: 1. 32bits didn´t overcome 16 bits in 1995 but one year later, 2. Saturn was realeased in may not in september, 3. The price of Sony Playstation was $299 and not $399 and 4. Neptune was cancelled.

Team Andromeda
01-16-2016, 08:51 AM
Apple products are expensive but they have great design, great branding, great marketing, intuitive software and very good hardware

That they do but they also cost got a hell of a lot more than their rivals and tbh I've both and imo HTC leave Apple standing for price and a better product. Price is a factor but its not the be and end all


$399 for a Saturn was too much and Tom Kalinske knew it.

It was too much. But at launch only the die hard will buy the systems at the start and they tend to be the ones that will find the money at the start . Tom should have well known that the price of the main unit would fall a year in.

Tom didn't do enough to get the America side of SEGA up to speed for 32 Bit production at all; STI was all over the shop, the Multi Media Studio a complete joke and in a total mess and Tom 32 Bit launch line's up on both the 32X and Saturn just lame and pathetic and then add to that a pointless redesign of the Saturn pad and a terrible rushed launch (which was TOM call) and it was mess from start to finish. The 32 X was no better . It was a nightmare system to set up, the games cost a fortune and the system was like £20 more expensive than SEGA said it would be and worst still you have utter garbage like Cosmic Carnage, Motocross Championship and most 3rd parties games that looked like they were using SNES code

It was all too easy for SONY to clean up and the worst part is that SEGA could have been a real strong number 2 (no way could SEGA beat SONY) but with NCL making it's own screw ups and the high price of carts. SEGA could have really taken on the N64 much better imo.


It's wasn't all Tom's doing and he did do a lot of good for SEGA and made a far better job of the Mega CD than SOJ. But he totally called it wrong for the 32 bit battle and totally screwed up that battle

Knuckle Duster
01-16-2016, 01:15 PM
So why even bother to bring it out . SONY tried hard with the PS vita and overlooking the proprietary cards (that scam never hurt Apple btw) the Vita cost a bit because it was pretty cutting EDGE . You can't just expect corps to give this tech away . I think the Vita is a great HH and bit gutted it never really took off it the west. If Price was key the DC would have cleaned up against the PS2, the Cube would have also sold way better and more than the XBox and the i-phone be left in the likes of HTC and Samsung's wake .

It's not all about price , you got to make people want your product and TOM totally and utterly cocked that up both with the Saturn and the 32X and with out SEGA Japan Sonic, the great sales man wasn't really that great at all.


You got to make people want your product. Nobody wanted to spend close to $400-$500+ to get a decent selection of mediocre games, out of the piece of shit Vita. I did it because I could. I sunk over a grand into it for the first year and I never picked it up for months at a time.

The great sales man is suddenly discredited because of obvious failings forced on him by his superiors, huh? I guess the Sega Genesis would have been amazing without his change of direction in North America. Right? No. No matter how much you try to revise history, I remember Sega before Tom. It was fucking pathetic. Credit where credit is due.


All we hear from TA in this thread is how price isn't everything. I mean, sure. Go tell that to the 3DO scene, or the PS3 at launch. Price can kill everything. All the marketing you have can't save you from a bad price.

HTC has almost no brand image, they are tiny and lean compared to all of their competitors. They almost went under a few years ago.

Crom
01-16-2016, 01:19 PM
The great sales man is suddenly discredited because of obvious failings forced on him by his superiors, huh? I guess the Sega Genesis would have been amazing without his change of direction in North America. Right? No. No matter how much you try to revise history, I remember Sega before Tom. It was fucking pathetic. Credit where credit is due.


There are users on this board so pedantic and anal about Sega's internal politics, that whenever these usual suspects start to show up comment, you just know it's going to melt down into a mundane, multi-page circle jerk that nobody in their right mind wants to look at.


:blah:

Knuckle Duster
01-16-2016, 01:21 PM
:blah:

http://i.imgur.com/QdEUkuP.gif

Indeed. The users on this forum are idiots who weren't there, and argue the same shit every time the topic is brought up.

Half of the criticism here is based on the opinions in the video in the OP. As if they're somehow wrong, and in needing of correction by a bunch of pedantic fucking hens, clucking at each other.

I guarantee you when Melf is done with his history book project, you'll have the same clowns here bitching about what really happened.

Team Andromeda
01-16-2016, 01:33 PM
You got to make people want your product. Nobody wanted to spend close to $400-$500+ to get a decent selection of mediocre games,

I don't know... SONY did well with the PS2 and PS3 and, even with their lauch software was a bit crap, so it was for the PS4. In fact I'm amazed the PS4 is selling as well as it does when the XBone One got a much better line up


or the PS3 at launch.

What a console that's sold over 70 million plus .


I guess the Sega Genesis would have been amazing without his change of direction in North America.

What did he change ? , With out Sonic Genesis sales would have been nothing like they were at all .


HTC has almost no brand image, they are tiny and lean compared to all of their competitors

What you mean like Apple were before the i-pod . HTC M9 phone is such a better phone than say the 6 and unlike Apple you can use SD cards and its a hell of a lot cheaper too

Knuckle Duster
01-16-2016, 03:49 PM
What a console that's sold over 70 million plus .

Yes. After reaching the end of it's lifespan. After completely losing all the money gained from the 10 years their brand was on the market. The PS3 was a piece of shit at launch, nobody wanted it when the Xbox 360 was superior. It took Microsoft's RROD and their eventual abandonment of games for Kinect before Sony started to build back some of what they had.




What did he change ? , With out Sonic Genesis sales would have been nothing like they were at all .

Right, and he bundled Sonic with the hardware and oversaw aggressive marketing, putting Sega on the map as a household name in North America, which was also the biggest and most important market in gaming at the time. You're welcome.


What you mean like Apple were before the i-pod . HTC M9 phone is such a better phone than say the 6 and unlike Apple you can use SD cards and its a hell of a lot cheaper too

Apple's branding is above and beyond HTC, even when their stock was junk and they were nearly dead in the 90s. HTC makes decent hardware, but live or die on their annual hardware cycles, because they are not Samsung, LG, Motorola, etc. The Vive is the only thing they're doing that is making headlines.


You can't discredit Tom Kalinske. You can hate fuck him all you want over petty nerd bullshit finger-pointing, adding fuel to the theories of why Sega died later, but the guy bundled Sonic and took Sega to the top in the first place. So, fuck you.

Team Andromeda
01-17-2016, 06:51 AM
Yes. After reaching the end of it's lifespan

While it was no PS2 at the start. It was still selling in more than decent numbers early in, despite the high price and a lame line up of games.


The PS3 was a piece of shit at launch, nobody wanted it when the Xbox 360 was superior

It was still selling in good numbers even in the USA. Hell people should remember that 360 1st years sales weren't that hot and half the time it couldn't outsell the PS 2 in month sales . It took a while for the 360 to really start to sell in massive numbers


Microsoft's RROD and their eventual abandonment of games for Kinect before Sony started to build back some of what they had

The Ring of Death hurt MS a lot, but SONY was always doing a better in Europe and Japan and that really helped them in the long run. I agree with you on Kinect though


Apple's branding is above and beyond HTC

Yes so price isn't the be and end all . If people want your product they'll find a way to buy it. I'm sure if SEGA Japan had given Tom and his chums an amazing looking and playing Sonic 3D adventure than people would have bought a ton of Saturn's even at its high price . But too much is made with the Saturn high price as after a year it was cut down and at the start of a console only the real die hards buy the machines .
Tom screwed up with not getting SEGA America up to speed on next gen developers and not making or producing enough games for the American market, never mind splinting the SEGA fan base , SEGA development teams and SEGA PR budgets and 3rd party relations with backing either the Saturn or 32X . When with the threat of not just SONY but Nintendo , SEGA needed to 100% focused on 1 platform and backing and pushing only that system

gamevet
01-17-2016, 12:36 PM
The PS3 was losing money for Sony up until 2010, when they could finally build the console for less than they were selling it for.

Hans-CD
01-17-2016, 01:18 PM
I can't believe we have to explain the PS3 v 360 gen already! Time sure flies.

Ps3 at launch , actually up until let's be super nice and say late 2009 (uncharted 2), was in a pretty bad situation.
Actually, it reminds me a lot of Xbox One this gen. Lots of exclusives (though in my opinion not always as good as what was available on 360) but bad third party support together with a crazy price.
Xbox 360 was king of the hill until Uncharted 2 came out, around that time Sony started really lowering the price, then getting the SLim out and marketing the more for the gamers.Magically people who were having issues with their 360 changed system instead.

I bought everything at launch as always, but I clearly remember the long drought with Ps3. Then again, truth to be told, in 2010 the tables started turning so much that by 2012 PS3 went from a distant third to being in a tie for second place with 360 (then it surpassed it, but current gen was coming soon).
On software side the table started turning since late 2011 actually, that is when people started preferring PS3 versions of most multiplatform games ( bad ports like Bioshock or Bayonetta 1 were distant memories by then).

Really, gamevet was completely right when he said marketing is the most important thing. Marketing is what the Ps brand built itself on actually.
Let's not blame Kalinske for doing the most important job in a company, hooking up the fish!
A good salesman pitch sells a lot more than great specs.

Crom
01-17-2016, 02:22 PM
Let's make a list of all of the things that contributed to the success of the Genesis:

-Timely release
-Relatively cheap production cost
-Easy-to-develop-for hardware
-Extensive first-party software development
-Strong third-party support
-Great advertising campaign
-Recognizable titles (arcade ports)
-Lax competition

and many more.

The success or failure of a home console depends on such a fine balance of so many factors.

Sega did not have any other smash successes out of its many attempts: Sega CD, Game Gear, Pico, 32X, Sega Channel, etc.

I see a lot of people here trying to say "The Genesis succeeded because of good marketing." Yes, marketing was a part of it, but that certainly cannot explain everything. Otherwise, Sega's other well-marketed attempts would also have done better. But even the absence of one of the above factors can spell failure for a console, no matter how well marketed it is.

The Genesis succeeded because of a "perfect storm" of factors. Trying to pin it on one particular thing or person is futile.

.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-17-2016, 03:18 PM
.

Marketing I would say was the big reason for it's success though. Especially when we have systems that do the polar opposite of a lot of those aspects you've listed and are still successful due to good marketting (SNES, N64, PS2, etc.) Those systems did not have timely releases, cheap hardware, were difficult to develop for, and did not have lax competition. They did however have great marketing and good third party support as a result.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the most damaging aspect of the Saturn was not the hardware, price, or software. It was poorly handled launch in all regions. It was obviously rushed out the door with half-assed ports and it showed. Especially when compared to Sony's much more polished launch software. If Sega had just waited and did a later release around September-November of 1995, they could have a had a much stronger looking launch that would stack up better against the PS1. You'd have things like Virtua Fighter Remix instead of the glitchy original port. You could possibly have Sega Rally or even a better port of Daytona USA instead of what originally launched. And if Sega had ditched the 32X when it was still on the drawing board, some of those games could have been Saturn launch titles like Star Wars Arcade, Stellar Assault, Metal Head, Doom, Knuckles Chaotix, etc.

Knuckle Duster
01-17-2016, 03:55 PM
While it was no PS2 at the start. It was still selling in more than decent numbers early in, despite the high price and a lame line up of games.



It was still selling in good numbers even in the USA. Hell people should remember that 360 1st years sales weren't that hot and half the time it couldn't outsell the PS 2 in month sales . It took a while for the 360 to really start to sell in massive numbers



The Ring of Death hurt MS a lot, but SONY was always doing a better in Europe and Japan and that really helped them in the long run. I agree with you on Kinect though



Yes so price isn't the be and end all . If people want your product they'll find a way to buy it. I'm sure if SEGA Japan had given Tom and his chums an amazing looking and playing Sonic 3D adventure than people would have bought a ton of Saturn's even at its high price . But too much is made with the Saturn high price as after a year it was cut down and at the start of a console only the real die hards buy the machines .
Tom screwed up with not getting SEGA America up to speed on next gen developers and not making or producing enough games for the American market, never mind splinting the SEGA fan base , SEGA development teams and SEGA PR budgets and 3rd party relations with backing either the Saturn or 32X . When with the threat of not just SONY but Nintendo , SEGA needed to 100% focused on 1 platform and backing and pushing only that system




The bias is real with TA.

"More than decent" PS3 launch sales. Xbox 360 launch wasn't a big deal compared to PS2? (No shit. What was?)

$599 US Dollars became a meme. Playstation's entire history of profit was wiped out with higher losses. It had worse looking, poorly performing ports of most multiplat games for like 4-5 years. They didn't even make a Dual Shock 3 for launch because they were too cheapskate to pay their dues to patent holders.

PS3 was a disaster.

Gentlegamer
01-17-2016, 04:25 PM
$599 US Dollars became a meme. Playstation's entire history of profit was wiped out with higher losses. It had worse looking, poorly performing ports of most multiplat games for like 4-5 years. They didn't even make a Dual Shock 3 for launch because they were too cheapskate to pay their dues to patent holders.

PS3 was a disaster.

This is all true. And all the more amazing the recovery Sony made over the course of the generation.

gamevet
01-18-2016, 02:16 AM
I can't believe we have to explain the PS3 v 360 gen already! Time sure flies.

Ps3 at launch , actually up until let's be super nice and say late 2009 (uncharted 2), was in a pretty bad situation.
Actually, it reminds me a lot of Xbox One this gen. Lots of exclusives (though in my opinion not always as good as what was available on 360) but bad third party support together with a crazy price.
Xbox 360 was king of the hill until Uncharted 2 came out, around that time Sony started really lowering the price, then getting the SLim out and marketing the more for the gamers.Magically people who were having issues with their 360 changed system instead.

I bought everything at launch as always, but I clearly remember the long drought with Ps3. Then again, truth to be told, in 2010 the tables started turning so much that by 2012 PS3 went from a distant third to being in a tie for second place with 360 (then it surpassed it, but current gen was coming soon).
On software side the table started turning since late 2011 actually, that is when people started preferring PS3 versions of most multiplatform games ( bad ports like Bioshock or Bayonetta 1 were distant memories by then).

Sony's mistakes with the PS3 are more than just the costs of the hardware itself. They launched the console with mediocre software and used the platform to push the Blu-Ray format. Sure, it was the most affordable (and best) Blu-Ray player on the market, but as a game console, it was getting its ars handed to it. Sony turned it around by focusing on games and catching up to the online features of Xbox Live. Their marketing of Blu-Ray was pretty much an afterthought heading into 2009.



Really, gamevet was completely right when he said marketing is the most important thing. Marketing is what the Ps brand built itself on actually.
Let's not blame Kalinske for doing the most important job in a company, hooking up the fish!
A good salesman pitch sells a lot more than great specs.

It's funny when everyone tries to say that Sonic was the main reason why the Genesis was successful in North America. Japan also had that title available on the Mega-Drive, yet they didn't have a clue about how to use that title as a marketing tool for the console. Tom saw the Genesis as a means to sell the razor, to sell the blades. He took a loss on the hardware and used the software as a means to make the profits back, and then some.

The guy took a pretty generic plastic doll hero (He-Man), from just another action figure, to one of the most iconic toys in the 80's. It wasn't just simple luck.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-18-2016, 03:04 AM
The PS3 really is interesting to look at as a Saturn fan. Sony pretty much made almost all the same mistakes with the PS3 that Sega made with the Saturn. However Sony had the money and time to put into re-branding the system for what was essentially a relaunch 3-4 years later, which is what helped turn it around. It would've been interesting to see how something like that would have worked for the Saturn if Sega had the money and the time of an extra long console generation to try it.

Team Andromeda
01-18-2016, 05:15 AM
"More than decent" PS3 launch sales. Xbox 360 launch wasn't a big deal compared to PS2?

Not what I said at all. After the 360 launched it hard time out selling the PS2 ( a system more than 5 years old) in most of Europe and even the PS2 in the USA. In fact the 360 1st year sales numbers weren't that great at all. And MS too had to cut its price to try and get better sales .


Playstation's entire history of profit was wiped out with higher losses

SONY losses were more than just the PS3 I think you'll find. SONY lost out big time with the move to LCD TV's (where it was slow to move on to the jump for LCD) and its mobile phone arm cost it a fortune and I'm not sure if its Computer sector ever made real money (no wonder they sold it off) . PS3 did make huge losses at the start, but some 4 years in it was able to sell the PS3 not cost price, but at a profit and of course the PS3 helped SONY win the format war too,


It's funny when everyone tries to say that Sonic was the main reason why the Genesis was successful in North America

That's because it was . After Sonic Mega Drive sales hit insane numbers and also because Sonic is the best selling MD game of all time .


yet they didn't have a clue about how to use that title as a marketing tool for the console

Like Tom and the rest of SEGA America with the Saturn , I guess.

And btw lets put an end to the PS debate . SONY never offered the PS to SEGA, and in June of 1992 decided to go it alone to make their own Console after the NCL put down . Her's the Edge Special on the making of the PS with Ken and Phil and 'lets chart our own course'

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1595/24347191612_dd62df8bba_b.jpg

Team Andromeda
01-18-2016, 05:28 AM
The PS3 really is interesting to look at as a Saturn fan. Sony pretty much made almost all the same mistakes with the PS3 that Sega made with the Saturn

They made more or less all the mistakes, other than no SONY America trying to make a add on to the PS2 to extend its life and be sold as stop gab . But SONY was 100% focused onthe format and also they had marketshare . So all the bullshit excuses of poor tools and being hard to develop on and complicated CPU that developers used with the Saturn, went out the window with the PS3 .

Its always about marketshare

bultje112
01-18-2016, 07:49 AM
The SNES was going strong well into 1996 and the Genesis was still selling very well in late 1994 and early 1995.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128453

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701305

pretty much prooves that kalinske called it right. 16 bit market was the market well until 1996


That's not what cost Nintendo. N64 was outselling PlayStation during most of 97. It was the drought of games and the huge third party push Sony received that hurt Nintendo.


Was Comix Zone the type of game expected to be competitive with Donkey Kong Country?

perhaps in the us. rest of the world not even close

bultje112
01-18-2016, 07:52 AM
This place sometimes just makes me laugh ... I thought SEGA was meant to have killed the Mega Drive in 1995, now its meant to be one of the best selling systems in 1995 and 1996 . In 1996 PS sales were really good and strong and helped by games like Resident Evil and Crash ECT



PS was selling better and its software was dominating all the charts in late 95 and 96 . Snes was always going to last that bit longer that the MD given it came out 2 years latter and also the fact that SGI had to delay its N64 chipset by over a year.



Yes The deal with Nintendo was to provide a CD drive for the Snes, but also has part of the deal SONY was also going to bring out its own separate stand alone machine. Sony did push ahead and wanted to bring out its Snes PS, but then that was dropped
what are you talking about? genesis sold 2 million in 1995(won't even go into software sales) in us against 400,000 saturns. pls explain this and how 32 bit market was >>> 16 bit market

Team Andromeda
01-18-2016, 08:10 AM
what are you talking about? genesis sold 2 million in 1995(won't even go into software sales) in us against 400,000 saturns.

The Saturn was a dead duck inthe USA. The PS sold over 800,000 units alone by Christmas of 1995 in the USA in Europe its goes on to sell 600,000 units too in 1995. So that blew apart Tom's big idea that they wasn't a market. And in 1996 Sony go on to sell 3 million units in the west alone with price cut couldn't make enough PS systems .

Nice one TOM !

gamevet
01-18-2016, 10:22 AM
Those numbers are way off. It took 9 months for the PlayStation to hit 1 million units (shipped?) sold in the US. The PlayStation sold around 300k by the end of 1995, compared to the pautry 125k Saturns sold.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/PlayStation

gamevet
01-18-2016, 11:35 AM
That's because it was . After Sonic Mega Drive sales hit insane numbers and also because Sonic is the best selling MD game of all time.

Right?

Sega of Japan couldn't even get the Mega-Drive out of 3rd place in its own country. Sonic should have lifted the MD out of a distant 3rd place, but those idiots in Japan didn't have a clue about how to sell product.



And btw lets put an end to the PS debate . SONY never offered the PS to SEGA, and in June of 1992 decided to go it alone]

Sony announced that they were going to release their 16-bit version of the Play Station in 1993. Ken's little project was still being researched at that time. There was no 32-bit PlayStation prototype in 1992.

Knuckle Duster
01-18-2016, 02:13 PM
Not what I said at all. After the 360 launched it hard time out selling the PS2 ( a system more than 5 years old) in most of Europe and even the PS2 in the USA. In fact the 360 1st year sales numbers weren't that great at all. And MS too had to cut its price to try and get better sales .

You're comparing a discounted, 5 year old console saturated with games. One of the top selling consoles of all time...to an underdog Xbox 360 launch. As if it says anything about the 360, a higher priced next gen console that just launched.

Stupid comparison. It doesn't defend the PS3 position either. "$599 US Dollars."


SONY losses were more than just the PS3 I think you'll find. SONY lost out big time with the move to LCD TV's (where it was slow to move on to the jump for LCD) and its mobile phone arm cost it a fortune and I'm not sure if its Computer sector ever made real money (no wonder they sold it off) . PS3 did make huge losses at the start, but some 4 years in it was able to sell the PS3 not cost price, but at a profit and of course the PS3 helped SONY win the format war too,

Playstation lost all the money it made. Not "SONY" as a whole, the Playstation division was wrecked by the PS3 and the company was already on life support across the board.


That's because it was . After Sonic Mega Drive sales hit insane numbers and also because Sonic is the best selling MD game of all time .

Yes. Be sure to thank Tom for leading the company to include it with the hardware and get those sales numbers up.

Team Andromeda
01-18-2016, 03:01 PM
You're comparing a discounted, 5 year old console saturated with games. One of the top selling consoles of all time...to an underdog Xbox 360 launch

I'm just saying the way it was. I highly doubt that the SEGA Genesis old out the NES by a massive amount in month sales back in 89.


Playstation lost all the money it made

I think it's on the record that the SONY mobile side cost it the most money in losses . Then you had SONY getting hammered in TV sales and its PC divisions also posting massive losses . It wasn't just the PS side of things and at least the PS3 made sure SONY won the format war with BluRay and made money with the online and game side of things


Stupid comparison. It doesn't defend the PS3 position either. "$599 US Dollars.

It called the way it was and SONY PS3 came in $499 and still sold millions in its 1st year, even with a Saturn busting price tag too . Nice one TOM

Team Andromeda
01-18-2016, 03:06 PM
Sega of Japan couldn't even get the Mega-Drive out of 3rd place in its own country

No but it made the Saturn be number 1 in its own country for 2 plus years . Unlike Tom and his SOA chums who totally cocked up the 32 Bit battle Actually forget SOA and SOJ. It was SEGA that did the best being number 1 with both the Master System and Mega Drive, nice work lads .


Sony announced that they were going to release their 16-bit version of the Play Station in 1993.

Not that be the 32 Bit version and Sony Japan went it along after 1992 . No deals with SEGA at any stage and the one corp that could have had the PS chipset said no and on your bike . Thanks for nothing NCL

Knuckle Duster
01-18-2016, 03:25 PM
I'm just saying the way it was. I highly doubt that the SEGA Genesis old out the NES by a massive amount in month sales back in 89.

With no relevant point other than to imply the Genesis or Xbox 360 were somehow of a weaker standing in your argument.




I think it's on the record that the SONY mobile side cost it the most money in losses . Then you had SONY getting hammered in TV sales and its PC divisions also posting massive losses . It wasn't just the PS side of things and at least the PS3 made sure SONY won the format war with BluRay and made money with the online and game side of things

Sony lost a lot of money. With the PS3 life cycle, Sony's Playstation brand lost a lot of money on it's own, and more than what the Playstation brand earned since it's inception. It was a cost bloated monster, and using your same bullshit logic that discredits Tom Kalinske, we might as well say fuck you to Ken Kutaragi.



You're just one of those retarded history revisionists, chipping away at Kalinske's achievements because of what might have happened if he wasn't there with the Genesis, definitively pointing out at the total failings of the Saturn, without accepting that it was blown away by SOJ interference in the beginning, and Bernie Stolar's bombshell abandonment in the end.


Almost every thread you jump into on these forums has been swamped with the same bullshit, trying to railroad points that make no sense to anybody but yourself. Talking to you in person would likely be a tedious exercise in tolerating bias and selective hearing.

Team Andromeda
01-18-2016, 03:34 PM
With no relevant point other than to imply the Genesis or Xbox 360

The point being that , most consoles take a time to start selling in really high numbers just after launch. So why people expected it to be so different with the Saturn or PS is quite beyond me .


Sony lost a lot of money

It did. But I think the biggest losses came from the SONY Mobile side . SONY PS3 side was able to reports profits over it's life time and the PS3 won the BluRay war which is doing very well for SONY.


we might as well say fuck you to Ken Kutaragi

I think SONY did.


You're just one of those retarded history revisionists

Try I'm just saying the way it was and is . Tom did a lot of good, but a lot of bad too and he totally called it wrong about the 32 Bit battle

Knuckle Duster
01-18-2016, 05:25 PM
So does anybody else see how this asshole is cherry picking and trimming his quotes, so they lose their context, which already address his rebuttle?

Constant troll baiting.

gamevet
01-18-2016, 07:50 PM
Try I'm just saying the way it was and is . Tom did a lot of good, but a lot of bad too and he totally called it wrong about the 32 Bit battle

Tom had very little, if any, input about how Sega could compete in the 32-bit battle. It's so obvious, unless you're looking for a way to paint the guy as a liar. He gracefully exits from his position as CEO of SOA and remains on the board until June of 1996, just 13 months after the surprise launch of the Saturn in North America. The founder of the company (David Rosen) is so disgusted with the poor management from SOJ, that he steps down from the board of directors, after Tom's resignation. SOJ was solely responsible for how the Saturn was handled and that burden was dropped upon the North American and European markets. *See attached quote below from page 508 of "The Ultimate History of Videogames."*



No but it made the Saturn be number 1 in its own country for 2 plus years . Unlike Tom and his SOA chums who totally cocked up the 32 Bit battle Actually forget SOA and SOJ. It was SEGA that did the best being number 1 with both the Master System and Mega Drive, nice work lads.

And you're calling Tom Kalinske a liar?

Japan was feeling the heat from Playstation in Japan; that's why they had Tom launch the Saturn in May of 1995. They were hoping to get a leap on Sony. The Saturn was not the #1 console in Japan for a solid 2 years. The 1st year saw the PlayStation and Saturn going neck and neck until the Saturn got Virtua Fighter 2. Sega maintained a lead from the end of 1995 to the beginning of 1997 (less than 15 months), when the PlayStation took the lead for good and never looked back.






Not that be the 32 Bit version and Sony Japan went it along after 1992 . No deals with SEGA at any stage and the one corp that could have had the PS chipset said no and on your bike . Thanks for nothing NCL

Kicky, go bang, bang, fast?

Team Andromeda
01-20-2016, 04:25 AM
Tom had very little, if any, input about how Sega could compete in the 32-bit battle. It's so obvious, unless you're looking for a way to paint the guy as a liar

He's just a sales man . But listen to Tom he could have had the PS chipset and all these other wonderful deals( when that was never ever the case that SEGA could have had the PS chipset) . And you take way SONIC and Mega Drive sales would have been nothing like they were . Compare Mega Drives to when Tom 1st took over SOA, to when Sonic launched.


Japan was feeling the heat from Playstation in Japan; that's why they had Tom launch the Saturn in May of 1995

Huh In Japan the SEGA Saturn was smashing the PS for sales in 1994 and all of 1995 and most of 1996 I think you'll find . The heat was coming when SEGA West great dream of the 32X being the mass market leader turned out to be a total fad and a bit of a flop. The trouble was Tom and SEGA America didn't have a back up plan; they never factor in that the 32X wouldn't take off and wouldn't be anything other than a sales monster and that was at the expense of the Saturn and getting software ready for it .

But even then SEGA America made needless screw ups . Why redesign the pad, why go with those God awful SEGA CD cases instead of the standard CD jewel case, why go in May when the next month you had Bug and the likes of Virtual Remix ready to go, never mind in June to have packed Clockwork Knight 1 and II (with the much better sequel finished in June) as a single game (like the original plan for the game) and in June all those games were finished and ready to go. Not great but still in a lot better shape to launch in June or July.


So does anybody else see how this asshole is cherry picking and trimming his quote

More insults , thought it was me that was meant to do that (another lie on here) . And I'm not cheery picking at all. Just answering the questions more often than not with facts and looking back at what happened over the history of consoles , which you supporters of TOM don't to like.