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gamevet
09-21-2016, 08:48 PM
No, quite the opposite really. But my cousins and aunts on my Dad's side were all Sega fans. So naturally we all ended up getting a Saturn around when the 3 Free games deal was going on. Some had it before that deal and had the Virtua Fighter bundle, as did some of my friends at school. The point is, I've played that version.

I'm not buying it. Everyone I knew that played videogames either had a PlayStation, or an N64. Why would anyone that already had Virtua Fighter 2, run out and buy Virtua Fighter? Also, there were less than 50,000 Saturn units sold that had the Virtua Fighter bundle. Poor people don't run out and buy $300-$400 consoles. Hell, the average gamer doesn't buy the next generation console until the price hits mass market appeal.

You shouldn't be falling out of the ring in Virtua Fighter (Saturn) because of the far off clipping on the top of the ring, unless you just really suck at the title.



It is very easy to tell real hardware captures apart from emulation if you know what too look for. Overscan bars, blended meshes, composite artifacts, audio hums, etc. are all dead giveaways. If you're not used to the original Saturn port of Virtua Fighter, the clipping ring can throw you off for a bit until you adjust. That's something you shouldn't have to do, and it does affect gameplay.

There's no audio hum in my captures. You also have 2 captures that would have compression artifacts from being converted twice, when you have head to head comparisons.

EclecticGroove
09-21-2016, 08:54 PM
So... what exactly is the discussion?
Those two quotes are wildly different topics.

TrekkiesUnite118
09-21-2016, 09:01 PM
I'm not buying it. Everyone I knew that played videogames either had a PlayStation, or an N64. Why would anyone that already had Virtua Fighter 2, run out and buy Virtua Fighter. Also, there were less than 50,000 Saturn units sold that had the Virtua Fighter bundle. Poor people don't run out and buy $300-$400; they wait until it hit mass market.

Key words were friends and family members. And some of my family members had it before that bundle came out. The rest of us ended up getting it after that bundle came out. 2 of my Aunts never had kids, so they had the disposable income to spend on that kind of stuff. The ones with kids like my parents and cousins parents didn't have that kind of income to throw around. We got ours when the 3 Free games deals came out. One or two of my friends at school however had the earlier Saturn bundle as well.

I got my PS1 for Christmas in 1998 from one of my Aunts with disposable income, my N64 I got in late 1999, early 2000 with my own Money I earned from my Paper Route. My Saturn my Dad bought in 1996 with the 3 Free Games deal because he loved playing Daytona USA and Sega Rally. He was introduced to those because the company he worked for at the time made the plastic pieces (Seats, Screen Borders, etc.) for the Arcade Cabinets for games made by Sega, Atari, Midway, etc.




There's no audio hum in my captures. You also have 2 captures that would have compression artifacts from being converted twice, when you have head to head comparisons.

I said audio hums were one of them. Not that it always needs to be there. And even with compression artifacts, Composite Artifacts are quite distinct and stick out. They usually present as shimmering, rainbow banding, etc.

There's also the fact that the Arcade vs Saturn Side by Side video of Virtua Fighter I posted was stated to be captured from real hardware for both versions by the video creator. Here's his channel, you can go through numerous videos where he shows his hardware and how he captured video off of it.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSzmW3FaQ9O1wbMfgUK6-Gw


So... what exactly is the discussion?
Those two quotes are wildly different topics.


From the other thread, TA thinks all 3D transparencies on the Saturn are done through meshing or VDP2, despite the mountains of evidence and facts stating otherwise. He even thinks a joke comment about it being done with Pixie Dust in Sonic R is actually a code name for an elaborate high-resolution dithering algorithm. It's quite comical.

gamevet
09-21-2016, 09:06 PM
So... what exactly is the discussion?
Those two quotes are wildly different topics.

I was talking about how legit some of those captures of Saturn Virtua Fighter are, and if they are emulated, that some things may be more of whack then they actually are.


I really don't notice the clipping with the character models in the real version (not emulated) of VF on the Saturn until they do their winning poses. The ring clipping doesn't effect your ability to stay in the ring with the real version of the Saturn game either. I can't even capture my Saturn's gameplay until I get a scart to component cable (I already have the scart cable) and a frame-meister to get it up to 640 x 480 resolution.

TrekkiesUnite118
09-21-2016, 09:11 PM
I was talking about how legit some of those captures of Saturn Virtua Fighter are, and if they are emulated, that some things may be more of whack then they actually are.

Both videos of Virtua Fighter I posted were real hardware. The one here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=-0MODsoB95E

You can easily see the composite artifacts around the text and some of the models.





I really don't notice the clipping with the character models in the real version (not emulated) of VF on the Saturn until they do their winning poses. The ring clipping doesn't effect your ability to stay in the ring with the real version of the Saturn game either. I can't even capture my Saturn's gameplay until I get a scart to component cable (I already have the scart cable) and a frame-meister to get it up to 640 x 480 resolution.

If you're used to the clipping it wouldn't. But if you're not used to it you will probably be thrown off. You can't deny that it's much easier to figure out where on the ring you are when you can see more of it. I have the same issue with Dead or Alive on the PS1. Though I think that one is a bit worse to be honest.

gamevet
09-21-2016, 09:17 PM
I went back to almost almost 6 years ago for that guys channel. The only stuff I saw about how he captures real hardware was with a Naomi board and a couple of other arcade boards.

Edit*

Video compression on low res images will create that same effect. Hell, DVD will do that with the credits, because of the low compression of the format.




If you're used to the clipping it wouldn't. But if you're not used to it you will probably be thrown off. You can't deny that it's much easier to figure out where on the ring you are when you can see more of it. I have the same issue with Dead or Alive on the PS1. Though I think that one is a bit worse to be honest.

Seriously, how? You could make an excuse for Daytona USA's clipping affecting how well you race, but it's just a piss-poor excuse for the Saturn version of VF being harder to play, because the clipping doesn't effect anything but presentation.

Lync
09-21-2016, 10:11 PM
http://www.mattgreer.org/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/

^I happened upon this site not too long ago and felt like it provided a straight-forward explanation of VDP1 and 2 transparency effects. I'm no Saturn-wiz in regards to hardware so this gave me a better understanding of capabilities/limitations and why meshes became more widely exercised from a developer standpoint.

While I was in grade school during the Saturn's run, and ever since then actually, there was only one classmate/person who I knew that owned a Saturn. He used to give me codes for Virtua Fighter not knowing they didn't work for my 32X, and especially considering years later that I realized he was giving me codes for Virtua Fighter Kids. :p

And it was mentioned in another thread but I still stand by the 32X port of Virtua Fighter as offering the most well-rounded experience - that said, had Remix allowed for the option to use those original poly-shaded character models then that'd be my version of choice. The texturing was cool, but prefer that arcade look!

gamevet
09-21-2016, 10:41 PM
The texture mapping in Remix hides some of the clipping of the models. I don't know how, but you can see it if you look closely.

I got my copy of Remix free in the mail from Sega, since I had a registered launch Saturn.

TrekkiesUnite118
09-22-2016, 12:55 AM
I went back to almost almost 6 years ago for that guys channel. The only stuff I saw about how he captures real hardware was with a Naomi board and a couple of other arcade boards.

Then you didn't look hard enough because here he is showing off his model 1 board and how he has it hooked up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a916vigy8g

Here is a similar comparison he did with Virtua Fighter 2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGgeoCYflDU

Again he mentions this is captured from real hardware for both versions. I think it's safe to say this guys videos are real hardware.



Edit*

Video compression on low res images will create that same effect. Hell, DVD will do that with the credits, because of the low compression of the format.

It might cause artifacts, but Composite artifacts are pretty distinct if you know what to look for. Video Compression artifacts have a different look to them as well. Those usually result in macroblocking, varying degrees of pixelation, etc. Composite artifacts usually appear as screen door kind of effect overtop certain colors, in motion it can appear as a kind of shimmering or rainbow banding effect, something video compression rarely if ever creates. Then there's the fact that in many you can see interlacing and combing artifacts as well as overscan borders.

The point is, you can spot it if you know what to look for. The only way you could confuse compression with composite artifacts is if the video was extremely low resolution and heavily compressed obscuring everything. Which most people wouldn't really use as a good example for graphical discussions.



Seriously, how? You could make an excuse for Daytona USA's clipping affecting how well you race, but it's just a piss-poor excuse for the Saturn version of VF being harder to play, because the clipping doesn't effect anything but presentation.

Well let's see, I can't see the edge of the stage unless I'm right on top of it or right next to it. So I have no visual cues to tell me where I am in relation to it most of the time. So I don't have the information to figure out where I am on the stage most of the time to know if I'll be putting myself at risk if I move in any direction because I don't know with certainty where the edge is.

If I look at Virtua Fighter Remix or Virtua Fighter 2 however, I can see the differently textured edge of the stage at all times from any angle. That small bit of information is just enough to allow me to get a good idea of where I am at on the stage and know what directions I can move to without putting myself at risk of a ring out.

Let's look at some screenshots. Here's one I grabbed from a youtube video of the original Saturn port:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/TrekkiesUnite118/VF1Clipping2_zpsitxjqgly.png

Can you say with certainty where the characters are on the stage? They could be in the middle, they could be a little to the left, to the right, they could be getting near an edge but it hasn't popped up yet. You really don't know with the information provided.

Here's a similar shot from Remix:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/TrekkiesUnite118/VFR2_zpsbx2nyhj7.png

Judging by the border we can figure out we are probably nearing the opposite edge of the ring due to how far away the other side is getting. We know that the opposite corner to the one mid left of the screenshot is probably just behind the camera and we are probably nearing the corner that will soon appear towards the mid right of the screen. That simple border gives us just enough information to piece together where we are on the stage and how close we are to the edges.

That information isn't always available in the original Saturn port and you have to resort to a lot of guess work.

Barone
09-22-2016, 02:37 AM
Nexus' channel is all about real hardware captures. I've been a subscriber of his channel for years.
I pretty much only subscribe to channels which use real hardware.



And it was mentioned in another thread but I still stand by the 32X port of Virtua Fighter as offering the most well-rounded experience - that said, had Remix allowed for the option to use those original poly-shaded character models then that'd be my version of choice. The texturing was cool, but prefer that arcade look!
This.


By the way, here's a real hardware capture of the 32X version with very good definition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On_7C8KzJPo


What hurts the gameplay of the original Saturn version for me is how distracting the rendering errors are. Noticeable parts of the floor but also very distracting in the joints of the fighters' models. This is what ruins that version to me.
I can play both versions no problem, but to play the Saturn one is unpleasant to me.

Team Andromeda
09-22-2016, 04:54 AM
Why would anyone that already had Virtua Fighter 2, run out and buy Virtua Fighter?

You wouldn't , or you would get VF Remix at the very least . I got VF on the Saturn in 1994 there wasn't any other 3D beat them up around at the time and back then the game looked and sounded amazing . I also remember that a had to wait 2 weeks for my 2nd pad from Japan to play 2 player , as stock of extra Saturn pads were so low in Japan at the time with the Japanese going mad over Saturn VF.


From the other thread, TA thinks all 3D transparencies on the Saturn are done through meshing or VDP2, despite the mountains of evidence and facts stating otherwise.

You keep on saying that, whilest almost every Saturn 3D game needed transparent effects that had to use mesh effects or a similar effects at some point in the game programme . Those issues just were not there in the PS or 3DO games .



Again he mentions this is captured from real hardware for both versions. I think it's safe to say this guys videos are real hardware

They most porobaly are, have a Look at Model 2 not make the shadows transparent , the mesh type effect used for the smoke . Model 2 and even Model 2B had its own set off issues with Transparent effects


Let's look at some screenshots. Here's one I grabbed from a youtube video of the original Saturn port

We can all grap a picture to suit our needs, the clipping is happening in at the edges of the stage in the background characters - not side to side. Since VF plays on a 2D plane for like 99% of the time its not half the issue you make out . I'm pretty sure untill you press play the video pic shows next to no clipping at all , maybe I should have grabbed that pic. Anway that's the real game, being played on a real Saturn and the clipping isn't a issue for gameplay at all .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yX1vxr5PGU

But anytime one uploads a vid to you youtube some compression and loss of quality is taking place

gamevet
09-22-2016, 09:30 AM
I've never fell out of the ring in Virtua Fighter (Saturn) because of the edge of the ring not being there. The majority of the clipping occurs on the top edge of the ring, which would have nothing to do with not seeing the left or right edges of the ring. That's why I say that Trekkies has never played the game, or it was his first time playing the game and those floaty jump kicks had him landing out of the ring.

I much prefer the Saturn's VF over the 32x version. It runs much smoother, the moves are more responsive, and the sound just kicks all kinds of ass. If that's not good enough, there's always Virtua Fighter Kids.

Team Andromeda
09-22-2016, 05:19 PM
I much prefer the Saturn's VF over the 32x version. It runs much smoother, the moves are more responsive, and the sound just kicks all kinds of ass. If that's not good enough, there's always Virtua Fighter Kids.

I can't play the 32X version TBH, It looks utter rubbish in comparison, sounds like an Atari ST game . Its such a massive comedown tbh

TrekkiesUnite118
09-22-2016, 11:23 PM
I've never fell out of the ring in Virtua Fighter (Saturn) because of the edge of the ring not being there. The majority of the clipping occurs on the top edge of the ring, which would have nothing to do with not seeing the left or right edges of the ring. That's why I say that Trekkies has never played the game, or it was his first time playing the game and those floaty jump kicks had him landing out of the ring.

Quit making assumptions about people just because they don't agree with you. The floaty jumps had nothing to do with this. And I'm not saying you will fall out of the ring due to the edge not being there. It's literally that you don't know where the edge is until you're right on top of it. It makes it harder to decide what move you want to use because you don't know if when you're done if it will position you right next to the edge and put you in risk of a ring out.

I'm not saying you fall through the stage or anything like that. I'm saying it impacts your decision making and strategy because it limits what information you have to figure out your position. Maybe you're used to it, which good for you. But you shouldn't have to get used to that issue.



I much prefer the Saturn's VF over the 32x version. It runs much smoother, the moves are more responsive, and the sound just kicks all kinds of ass. If that's not good enough, there's always Virtua Fighter Kids.

The Saturn and 32X versions both run at 30fps. If I want to play the first Virtua Fighter, my go to is Remix, followed by the 32X.





You keep on saying that, whilest almost every Saturn 3D game needed transparent effects that had to use mesh effects or a similar effects at some point in the game programme . Those issues just were not there in the PS or 3DO games .

I keep saying it because it's the truth. I've explained how it works, I've explained the shortcomings to you. It's up to you to let your bias go and learn from it.




They most porobaly are, have a Look at Model 2 not make the shadows transparent , the mesh type effect used for the smoke . Model 2 and even Model 2B had its own set off issues with Transparent effects

Yes, some model 2 boards do. Some have limited support for single shaded transparencies. However those boards still can't do it with textures which is why you still see meshing.

Not all transparencies are the same. You need to stop using blanket logic and learn how things work.




We can all grap a picture to suit our needs, the clipping is happening in at the edges of the stage in the background characters - not side to side. Since VF plays on a 2D plane for like 99% of the time its not half the issue you make out . I'm pretty sure untill you press play the video pic shows next to no clipping at all , maybe I should have grabbed that pic. Anway that's the real game, being played on a real Saturn and the clipping isn't a issue for gameplay at all .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yX1vxr5PGU

But anytime one uploads a vid to you youtube some compression and loss of quality is taking place

Youtube compression isn't going to make more polygons magically disappear. And in your video I can still see plenty of instances where you can't see the edge and you can't tell where you are on the stage. Some stages are better than others, but Sarah's and Akira's are probably the worst offenders. Virtua Fighter is a 3D fighter about positioning yourself to take advantage of your opponent. Not knowing where you are on the stage at all times limits your effectiveness at positioning yourself. Sure you can get used to the clipping, but you shouldn't have to.

gamevet
09-22-2016, 11:52 PM
Quit making assumptions about people just because they don't agree with you. The floaty jumps had nothing to do with this. And I'm not saying you will fall out of the ring due to the edge not being there. It's literally that you don't know where the edge is until you're right on top of it. It makes it harder to decide what move you want to use because you don't know if when you're done if it will position you right next to the edge and put you in risk of a ring out.

I'm not saying you fall through the stage or anything like that. I'm saying it impacts your decision making and strategy because it limits what information you have to figure out your position. Maybe you're used to it, which good for you. But you shouldn't have to get used to that issue.

This has very little to do with assumptions. The only affect of not knowing where the edge of the ring occurs is when you make a (floaty) high jump to land a move on a downed opponent, or you do a long drop kick.

You can see in this comparison video of Remix vs the original that the left and right edges of the ring are very much visible.

5qd8FVApKkk




The Saturn and 32X versions both run at 30fps. If I want to play the first Virtua Fighter, my go to is Remix, followed by the 32X.

It doesn't matter that both versions run at 30 fps. Just look at videos of moves like the round house kick, the flip kick, or the players falling to the ground and it's pretty obvious that the 32X version cuts out frames of animation.

I would have boxed up my Saturn and taken it back to Toys R' Us, if the Saturn version of Virtua Fighter was like the 32X version.

Team Andromeda
09-23-2016, 12:53 AM
I keep saying it because it's the truth

The truth is that almost every Saturn 3D game needs to use a Mesh effect, at some stage . Its so obvious it's an issue for the Saturn that simply is not there for the PS or 3DO .That for me was a big Hardware oversight and one area that made PS games look better with fancy effects , even if in terms of Polygons there wouldn't be much difference between the 2 versions (like Tunnel B1)


Yes, some model 2 boards do.

Maybe the very latest one, but Model 2 and Model 2B didn't support it in Hardware


Not knowing where you are on the stage at all times limits your effectiveness at positioning yourself. Sure you can get used to the clipping, but you shouldn't have to.

Its only seems a issue to you , and its not like the entire stage disappears . I think you're just making a big deal out of nothing . Saturn VF is leagues better than the 32X version . I can understand the GFX shortcomings of Saturn's Daytona USA getting inthe way of gameplay for most, but not VF on the Saturn . I never had issues, never seen anyone else having issues and none of the reviews at the time seemed to have issues at all .

hat's not to say it couldn't be done or there isn't a work around .


Youtube compression isn't going to make more polygons magically disappear.

Before you press play how much clipping is there ?

Sik
09-23-2016, 02:48 AM
The Saturn and 32X versions both run at 30fps. If I want to play the first Virtua Fighter, my go to is Remix, followed by the 32X.
Doesn't the 32X version run at 20FPS?

doomguy
09-23-2016, 07:11 AM
No way does the Saturn version feel more responsive other way around IMO that's my main complaint with that version

TrekkiesUnite118
09-23-2016, 11:45 AM
This has very little to do with assumptions. The only affect of not knowing where the edge of the ring occurs is when you make a (floaty) high jump to land a move on a downed opponent, or you do a long drop kick.

You can see in this comparison video of Remix vs the original that the left and right edges of the ring are very much visible.

5qd8FVApKkk

In some stages it isn't as bad as others. But look at Sarah's stage in that video. The edge is almost never visible. Maybe with you being used to it you only do it on jumps, but if you're not used to it you can run into a situation where you think you're further from the edge than you really are and you step back only to then have the edge pop in and you realize you're right on top of it. You might not go right off of it, but had you known it was there you might not have decided to back off on the opponent.

To be clear, I'm not talking about accidentally going off the stage. I'm talking about misjudging where you are on the stage making bad decisions on where to position yourself because of it. Those bad decisions can then put you in a position that you don't want to be in and can make things more difficult. It's annoying and it can impact how you mentally play the game.



It doesn't matter that both versions run at 30 fps. Just look at videos of moves like the round house kick, the flip kick, or the players falling to the ground and it's pretty obvious that the 32X version cuts out frames of animation.

I would have boxed up my Saturn and taken it back to Toys R' Us, if the Saturn version of Virtua Fighter was like the 32X version.

Maybe during replays the frame rate dips because the model quality bumps up. During gameplay I've rarely noticed it.


The truth is that almost every Saturn 3D game needs to use a Mesh effect, at some stage . Its so obvious it's an issue for the Saturn that simply is not there for the PS or 3DO .That for me was a big Hardware oversight and one area that made PS games look better with fancy effects , even if in terms of Polygons there wouldn't be much difference between the 2 versions (like Tunnel B1)

I'm not saying there's not issues with the effect on Saturn. I'm pointing out that the Saturn does have hardware support for it. I've explained to you over and over again how it works and why it's not used a lot and why you still see meshing. But to reiterate here it is again. Please actually take the time to read and understand it this time:

1) VDP1 Transparencies are slow. They take 6 times longer to render than normal sprites and polygons. A game with lots of those going on is going to have performance issues.

2) VDP1 Transparencies are not able to blend with both VPD1 objects and VDP2 objects. It can only do one or the other. So it's either going to blend with VDP2 layers and erase any VDP1 objects it passes over, or it's going to blend with VDP1 objects and not blend with VDP2 layers behind it. You can see this happening on games that ignore the issue and use the effect anyways. This issue is present for both 2D and 3D objects.

3) The Saturn doesn't really render polygons (Quads or Triangles) like the PS1, Model 1 and 2 boards, etc. It instead distorts sprites to the shape it needs and draws that to it's frame buffer at the right spot. This makes the system prone to pixel over draw. The same pixel on the screen will be drawn more than once due to this distortion. For normal stuff this is ok, as the highest level pixel will be drawn on top and you wont see any errors from the pixels below. For 50/50 transparencies though this causes a problem. You draw the first pixel as 50/50 blended. Then another pixel needs drawn in that same spot that is also 50/50 blended. You 50/50 blend a 50/50 blended pixel and you get an error. You can see this happening in games that ignore the issue and do it anyways.

This is pretty much the gist of VDP1 transparencies. This is also why you can see games using both real VDP1 transparencies and meshing. The balance between performance, visual quality, and rendering errors/bugs may be acceptable for some in game objects, but not others.



Maybe the very latest one, but Model 2 and Model 2B didn't support it in Hardware

Sonic the Fighter's is on the 2B board. The 2B board is the first to be listed with single shaded transparencies:

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=715

Again, if it means what I think it means then the board can draw a transparent single color polygon just fine. Textured polygons however still need to be meshed. This is why you still see meshing on those kind of objects in Model 2 games. But the clear cockpit dome of Sonic the Fighters doesn't have a problem because it's not textured.



Its only seems a issue to you , and its not like the entire stage disappears . I think you're just making a big deal out of nothing . Saturn VF is leagues better than the 32X version . I can understand the GFX shortcomings of Saturn's Daytona USA getting inthe way of gameplay for most, but not VF on the Saturn . I never had issues, never seen anyone else having issues and none of the reviews at the time seemed to have issues at all .

Did any of the reviews complain about the clipping? I'm not saying the entire stage disappears, but a significant portion is not visible. It does impact how you think when you play the game. Maybe you never thought about it before or are so used to it you don't notice it anymore. But it certainly bothers me and it certainly bothered people who would much rather play Remix or the 32X version.



Before you press play how much clipping is there ?

For that one frame none. Unfortunately the game is never like that during gameplay. Yeah you might be able to see one piece of the edge every now and then before you're on top of it, but it's still pretty bad and impacts how you think about you're positioning in the ring.


Doesn't the 32X version run at 20FPS?

It's 30fps last I checked. I think Chilly and a few others years ago confirmed that when it came up.

Team Andromeda
09-23-2016, 03:55 PM
In some stages it isn't as bad as others. But look at Sarah's stage in that video.

I don't agree and the irony is in that video how many matches were won by a ring out ? .


I'm not saying there's not issues with the effect on Saturn. I'm pointing out that the Saturn does have hardware support for it

There's issues and there's big issues ok . You talk of the likes of NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon have you really played those games at all . Panzer Dragoon may do a weak and basic effect on the lock on, every thing else in comes the bloody mesh effect, NiGHTS uses the mesh effect almost more than any Saturn 3D game. Look at RSG its a Saturn master class in visuals and how to use the system and even than game needs the mesh effect . Those are issues the PS or stuff like the 3DO didn't suffred from .

That's why to me it was a Huge shortcoming of the Saturn hardware . as much as I love the system and it's games


Sonic the Fighter's is on the 2B board.

SEGA Rally was the 1st game to use the Model 2B board and it didn't support or use transparent effects .


Did any of the reviews complain about the clipping

None at all in terms of it affecting the gameplay or matches being lost due to people not knowing where there are . Even EDGE gave VF a 9 out of 10 back inthe day .


http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=715

Please that's system 16 a fan site , I mean the tech on Model 1 is wrong for starters it was not developed by GE at all .

Black_Tiger
09-23-2016, 04:13 PM
There's issues and there's big issues ok . You talk of the likes of NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon have you really played those games at all . Panzer Dragoon may do a weak and basic effect on the lock on, every thing else in comes the bloody mesh effect, NiGHTS uses the mesh effect almost more than any Saturn 3D game. Look at RSG its a Saturn master class in visuals and how to use the system and even than game needs the mesh effect . Those are issues the PS or stuff like the 3DO didn't suffred from .

Although I don't like the mesh effect or how transpancy effects were spammed in ridiculous ways that generation, those games also feature major transparency effects which are superior to anything in PSX and N64 games. It's still a mechanical mix, but for some reason the Saturn gets dumped on in every way possible while the other consoles get a pass.

Virtua Fighter is a great example. Most PSX games are technically an unstable jittery mess, with texture warping, flappy seams and a pixelated haze across everything. Because of how things played out commercially, we've been conditioned to base what is "normal" around the Playstation.

So it's glitchiness in most games doesn't ruin them in comparisons to Saturn, but somehow some comparatively very minor 3D glitchiness in a Saturn game is hard to look at and it affects the gameplay when comparing it to 32X?

There's no point to these kinds of discussions, because in the end the Saturn gets trashed either way.

Thief
09-23-2016, 04:25 PM
Might as well toss this out since there be many mesh haters here. SSF emulator has the option to blend meshes into transparency.

Team Andromeda
09-23-2016, 05:17 PM
Although I don't like the mesh effect or how transpancy effects were spammed in ridiculous ways that generation, those games also feature major transparency effects which are superior to anything in PSX and N64 games.

Panzer Dragoon doesn't use many transparent effects (even if at the time it was the best looking conole game around ). Nights has great and amazing transparent effects when its the VDP II effect and that's when the Saturn can outclass the PS , like it does with Thunder Force V transparent effects but they're a flat plane

TrekkiesUnite118
09-24-2016, 11:52 AM
I don't agree and the irony is in that video how many matches were won by a ring out ? .

What does the way your matches end have anything to do with not being able to see the ring having an impact on gameplay or not?

Have you forgotten what spurred this part of the debate? You said better graphics have no impact on gameplay. I pointed out both Virtua Fighter and Daytona as having possible impacts from poor draw distance and clipping issues because it would impact either consciously or subconsciously how you think about playing the game. It would impact how you interpret where you are on the stage or track to know what move is the best one to do.

If you and gamevet are used to those versions than good for you.



There's issues and there's big issues ok . You talk of the likes of NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon have you really played those games at all . Panzer Dragoon may do a weak and basic effect on the lock on, every thing else in comes the bloody mesh effect, NiGHTS uses the mesh effect almost more than any Saturn 3D game. Look at RSG its a Saturn master class in visuals and how to use the system and even than game needs the mesh effect . Those are issues the PS or stuff like the 3DO didn't suffred from .

That's why to me it was a Huge shortcoming of the Saturn hardware . as much as I love the system and it's games

I have played them numerous times and beaten them numerous times. I'm well aware that they use meshes. Again, did you read what I posted? It clearly points out exactly what issues are present with VDP1 50/50 alpha blending and why you don't see it used a lot as well as why you still see meshes even in games that use the hardware supported 50/50 blending. Go back and carefully read it and try replying when you actually understand it.

The issues it has still doesn't change the fact it has hardware support for it. The fix for Saturn transparencies isn't add hardware support for it. It already has that. The fix is completely nix VDP1 and go with something that actually draws polygons properly. The fix is to pick a new chip that doesn't take so damn long to draw transparencies and can do more than 50/50 blending. The fix is to rework how VDP2 and whatever you replace VDP1 with communicate with each other so the blending between the two chips works properly.

If you just add hardware support for it (which would be redundant since it already has it), it won't make any difference as the same issues will still be there.



SEGA Rally was the 1st game to use the Model 2B board and it didn't support or use transparent effects .

That doesn't mean the board didn't support it though. Every game doesn't need to use every single hardware effect you know. Out of the entire SNES library how many games actually use Mode 7?

Secondly most if not all of Sega Rally's meshes appear to be textured, not single shaded. Even the car windows. They have the cloud textures on them like Daytona did. Model 2 transparency for the later boards if the information provided is accurate can only be done on single shaded polygons, not textured polygons.



None at all in terms of it affecting the gameplay or matches being lost due to people not knowing where there are . Even EDGE gave VF a 9 out of 10 back inthe day .

But they did mention the clipping did they not? Just because you never thought about this before doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist. And again, the entire point was you saying less glitchy graphics don't impact gameplay. I merely gave you an example of where it can impact gameplay.




Please that's system 16 a fan site , I mean the tech on Model 1 is wrong for starters it was not developed by GE at all .

Got something better? I have a feeling even if we had dev manuals for the Model 2B boards saying there was support for single shaded transparencies you would still kick and scream that there wasn't support for it.



So it's glitchiness in most games doesn't ruin them in comparisons to Saturn, but somehow some comparatively very minor 3D glitchiness in a Saturn game is hard to look at and it affects the gameplay when comparing it to 32X?

There's no point to these kinds of discussions, because in the end the Saturn gets trashed either way.

It wasn't about trashing the Saturn. TA was saying that the better graphics provided by VDP2 in the later 3D Fighters like Virtua Fighter Remix, Virtua Fighter 2, etc. had absolutely no impact on gameplay at all. I gave him an example of how it could impact gameplay.

Team Andromeda
09-24-2016, 12:28 PM
What does the way your matches end have anything to do with not being able to see the ring having an impact on gameplay or not

Well I guess sarcasm is beyond you . You made a big deal about the Edges of the ring being a factor , yet even in the video you linked there was no rings outs .


Again, did you read what I posted

Do you read what I post ? . For years I've always said one of the big reasons PS games were able to look bettter were due to fancy effects like Transparent effects , and its a issue with Saturn that made it look worse . That's all


That doesn't mean the board didn't support it though.

2 planed Stages for SEGA Rally were dropped due to issues of the boards lack of transparent effects one of which was a snowy stage as the team pointed out .


Got something better?

About 3 interviews with Yu Suzuki in EDGE and there's also plenty online


There isn't really a favorite but the hardware we used for Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter 2 are the most memorable to me -- the Model 1 and Model 2 boards. It was the first hardware capable of 3D graphics, and I was involved in its development from the drawing board. The chip used in the Model 2 came from military equipment from Lockheed Martin, which was formerly General Electric Aerial & Space's textural mapping technology. It cost $2 million dollars to use the chip. It was part of flight-simulation equipment that cost $32 million. I asked how much it would cost to buy just the chip and they came back with $2 million. And I had to take that chip and convert it for video game use, and make the technology available for the consumer at 5,000 yen ($50) per console or else nobody would buy the hardware. But I did it. And because I was able to do that we were able to put textures on the Virtua Fighter 2 characters.


http://www.1up.com/features/disappearance-suzuki-part-1

Do I really have to scan them in ?


Secondly most if not all of Sega Rally's meshes appear to be textured, not single shaded. Even the car window

What Rally do you play. There's a mesh type effect on the windows and on the puddles .


But they did mention the clipping did they not?

Yes, but nothing about it hurting the gameplay or not knowing where you are . Only you seem to have issues


TA was saying that the better graphics provided by VDP2 in the later 3D Fighters like Virtua Fighter Remix

No I said the gameplay is exaclty the same with VF and VF remix - which it is . So please stop the spin

TrekkiesUnite118
09-24-2016, 12:47 PM
Well I guess sarcasm is beyond you . You made a big deal about the Edges of the ring being a factor , yet even in the video you linked there was no rings outs .

That doesn't mean the issue isn't there. The whole point was that you were saying better graphics don't impact gameplay. I pointed out where it could. Just because you never thought about it before now doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact. Did you have any trouble when you first played the Saturn port 20 years ago and didn't have all that time to get used to it?



Do you read what I post ? . For years I've always said one of the big reasons PS games were able to look bettter were due to fancy effects like Transparent effects , and its a issue with Saturn that made it look worse . That's all

And I didn't say there were no issues. I simply said the system does have hardware support for 50/50 alpha blending on both polygons and sprites.



2 planed Stages for SEGA Rally were dropped due to issues of the boards lack of transparent effects one of which was a snowy stage as the team pointed out .

Which would most likely use TEXTURED transparencies, not single shaded ones. Do you understand the difference?



About 3 interviews with Yu Suzuki in EDGE and there's also plenty online

No where in what you linked does it mention alpha blending. And Virtua Fighter 2 was on the Model 2 board that had no alpha blending support at all.

Also you said the System-16 site didn't count because it said Model 1 hardware was made by GE. You're own interview you just posted says otherwise:


The chip used in the Model 2 came from military equipment from Lockheed Martin, which was formerly General Electric Aerial & Space's textural mapping technology.

A simple google search further verifies this.



http://www.1up.com/features/disappearance-suzuki-part-1

Do I really have to scan them in ?

Knock yourself out.



What Rally do you play. There's a mesh type effect on the windows and on the puddles .

I didn't say it didn't use meshes. I simply pointed out why the single shaded alpha blending wouldn't work. Those are on textures polygons. If you play in an emulator that blends the mesh to a real transparency, the texturing becomes more obvious:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahFvbo_YKy0

Those meshes are done with textured polygons. The single shaded transparency effect wouldn't work.


Yes, but nothing about it hurting the gameplay or not knowing where you are . Only you seem to have issues

That doesn't mean it didn't have some impact on it. You can't admit that just a tiny bit of how you think about playing that game could impacted by how well you can see the stage?



No I said the gameplay is exaclty the same with VF and VF remix - which it is . So please stop the spin

But most people would rather play Remix. Why? Becuase they like being able to see the entire stage and knowing where they are. Why do they like knowing where they are? Because it makes it easier to chose what attacks to use. It may be minor, but it is an impact on gameplay.

gamevet
09-24-2016, 12:48 PM
In some stages it isn't as bad as others. But look at Sarah's stage in that video. The edge is almost never visible. Maybe with you being used to it you only do it on jumps, but if you're not used to it you can run into a situation where you think you're further from the edge than you really are and you step back only to then have the edge pop in and you realize you're right on top of it. You might not go right off of it, but had you known it was there you might not have decided to back off on the opponent.

The edge is very much visible. They took out the cool lighted edges of the original and put a big blue strip on the edge in remix. I played both versions yesterday and had 1 ring out in the original and 3 ring outs in Remix; my ability to see the edge of the ring had nothing to do with those ring outs.



To be clear, I'm not talking about accidentally going off the stage. I'm talking about misjudging where you are on the stage making bad decisions on where to position yourself because of it. Those bad decisions can then put you in a position that you don't want to be in and can make things more difficult. It's annoying and it can impact how you mentally play the game.

I've never had an issue with not knowing where I am in the ring. When I have my back towards the edge of the ring, I generally use a forearm hit or a jumping knee to push the opponent back.



Maybe during replays the frame rate dips because the model quality bumps up. During gameplay I've rarely noticed it.

No, it's during gameplay. The missing frames of animation is rather off putting, considering that the arcade game has such a smooth flow to its movement.

TrekkiesUnite118
09-24-2016, 01:00 PM
The edge is very much visible. They took out the cool lighted edges of the original and put a big blue strip on the edge in remix.

You can clearly see the cool lighted edges when you're right on top of them. When you're in the middle of the stage however, they are just beyond the draw distance and you can't see them. And what about Akira's stage? That one is almost never visible unless you're right on top of it.


I played both versions yesterday and had 1 ring out in the original and 3 ring outs in Remix; my ability to see the edge of the ring had nothing to do with those ring outs.

I didn't say not being able to see the edge of the ring is going to mean more Ring outs. I said not being able to see the edge will impact your sense of position on the stage and how you think about what move to use next.



I've never had an issue with not knowing where I am in the ring. When I have my back towards the edge of the ring, I generally use a forearm hit or a jumping knee to push the opponent back.

So do you just always push back in case the edge is right behind you and you can't see it at the moment?



No, it's during gameplay. The missing frames of animation is rather off putting, considering that the arcade game has such a smooth flow to its movement.

I've not really noticed it myself during gameplay. I've only ever noticed it in scripted stuff like the intro and the replays.

Sik
09-24-2016, 01:42 PM
I'm surprised nobody has brought up yet the Model 2's complete inability to do gouraud shading and hence shading on smooth surfaces (Dead or Alive works around this by ditching lighting and texturing everything, but then you have Sonic the Fighters going with untextured flat shaded polygons everywhere and it sticks like a sore)

Team Andromeda
09-25-2016, 04:45 AM
I'm surprised nobody has brought up yet the Model 2's complete inability to do gouraud shading and hence shading on smooth surfaces (Dead or Alive works around this by ditching lighting and texturing everything, but then you have Sonic the Fighters going with untextured flat shaded polygons everywhere and it sticks like a sore)

Namco used it to say System 22 was more powerful than Model 2 . Though Yu Suzuki said Daytona USA uses Gouard shading in the attract sequence

Team Andromeda
09-25-2016, 04:57 AM
The whole point was that you were saying better graphics don't impact gameplay.

They don't with VF. VF and VF Remix play and control exactly the same .


And I didn't say there were no issues.

Ok fair enough


Which would most likely use TEXTURED transparencies

Transparent effect on stuff like the car headlights ect


Also you said the System-16 site didn't count because it said Model 1 hardware was made by GE. You're own interview you just posted says otherwise

Didn't say it didn't count, but its a fan site and so the information can sometimes be wrong or mixed up . Model 1 was desgined by SEGA. GE didn't didn't come onboard untill Model 2 in 1992 .


And Virtua Fighter 2 was on the Model 2 board that had no alpha blending support at all

I know. Model 2 had its own issues with Transparent effects .


I didn't say it didn't use meshes.

I give up .

Thief
09-25-2016, 10:07 AM
Namco used it to say System 22 was more powerful than Model 2 . Though Yu Suzuki said Daytona USA uses Gouard shading in the attract sequence

I used to think Sega Model 2 games were the hottest looking games ever. Still do.

Team Andromeda
09-25-2016, 10:32 AM
I used to think Sega Model 2 games were the hottest looking games ever. Still do.

Yes I do too, but Namco made out that Ace Driver (I think it was) was using Gouard shading thru out the entire game and how System 22 was more powerful for facts like that . Like I say and its true for the Arcades too all systems have their plus and minus points

Sik
09-25-2016, 10:53 PM
Namco used it to say System 22 was more powerful than Model 2 . Though Yu Suzuki said Daytona USA uses Gouard shading in the attract sequence
Yeah, that part kind of confuses me. Especially seeing as I recall Nebula having a feature to fake gouraud shading on its own.

Just looked it up. Apparently it's only model 2C that supports gouraud shading (not the earlier revisions). Which revision does Daytona USA run on?

Team Andromeda
09-26-2016, 04:17 AM
Yeah, that part kind of confuses me. Especially seeing as I recall Nebula having a feature to fake gouraud shading on its own.

Just looked it up. Apparently it's only model 2C that supports gouraud shading (not the earlier revisions). Which revision does Daytona USA run on?

Daytona USA was the 1st Model 2 game, so it be the 1st version of the Board

Aurora
09-26-2016, 01:32 PM
I watched that Remix vs Original comparison and actually think some people may be confused by the ring on Sarah's stage. Part of the end of the ring keeps disappearing and reappearing, and I could see a more casual person wtfing at such, thus losing via ringout. I dunno. It's possible?