PDA

View Full Version : What if the Saturn had used the SGI chipset?



redsox2013
09-17-2017, 09:23 PM
We all know that Sega of America had a deal to use a chipset from Silicon Graphics in the Saturn, but Sega of Japan overruled the plan. That chipset was eventually used to power the Nintendo 64. I've always wondered - what if Sega used it instead?

We know that the N64 has a problem with draw distance like the Saturn does. The N64 hides it with fog, while there's just a lot of pop up on many Saturn games. I wonder how the SGI chip could handle Sega's arcade racers? Sega's arcade ports were vital to the 32 bit era, and that would have still been true even with different processors. Maybe games like Daytona & Sega Rally could have had sharper textures, but would they be better with foggy backgrounds? Same goes for the Panzer Dragoon games.

How would the Virtua Fighter games look on an N64? There's no real comparison as I think the only 3D fighter on N64 was Mortal Kombat. Maybe it wouldn't have been as good. After all, 3D fighters were huge in the mid and late 90's, but the N64 was severely lacking this important genre. Perhaps the SGI chip couldn't handle a 3D fighter like the Saturn and PS1 do.

What about 2D fighters, especially the Capcom ones? Again, none were made for N64, so we don't really know how that chip could handle hand drawn backgrounds and fighters. Same for 2D shooters, a staple of the Saturn lineup, especially in Japan.

Of course, with the SGI chipset, Sega would have had a much easier time creating 3D platformers. A true 3D Sonic game would have almost certainly been a reality, and that alone would have sold millions more systems. Not to mention third party support would have been better with easier 3D tools to work with.

As great as NiGHTS into Dreams is, that is one game that I feel would almost certainly benefit from the different processor. As a 2.5D game, foggy backgrounds wouldn't be an issue like in a true 3D game, and the game could get an overall cleaner look. Imagine Mario 64 quality textures and environments.

gamevet
09-17-2017, 09:24 PM
Here comes the Team Andromeda Sega of America lies rant.

Tower of Power
09-17-2017, 09:34 PM
Here comes the Team Andromeda Sega of America lies rant.

Incoming photos of old issues of EDGE.

j_factor
09-17-2017, 10:11 PM
We all know that Sega of America had a deal to use a chipset from Silicon Graphics in the Saturn, but Sega of Japan overruled the plan. That chipset was eventually used to power the Nintendo 64. I've always wondered - what if Sega used it instead?

We know that the N64 has a problem with draw distance like the Saturn does. The N64 hides it with fog, while there's just a lot of pop up on many Saturn games. I wonder how the SGI chip could handle Sega's arcade racers? Sega's arcade ports were vital to the 32 bit era, and that would have still been true even with different processors. Maybe games like Daytona & Sega Rally could have had sharper textures, but would they be better with foggy backgrounds? Same goes for the Panzer Dragoon games.

How would the Virtua Fighter games look on an N64? There's no real comparison as I think the only 3D fighter on N64 was Mortal Kombat. Maybe it wouldn't have been as good. After all, 3D fighters were huge in the mid and late 90's, but the N64 was severely lacking this important genre. Perhaps the SGI chip couldn't handle a 3D fighter like the Saturn and PS1 do.

What about 2D fighters, especially the Capcom ones? Again, none were made for N64, so we don't really know how that chip could handle hand drawn backgrounds and fighters. Same for 2D shooters, a staple of the Saturn lineup, especially in Japan.

Of course, with the SGI chipset, Sega would have had a much easier time creating 3D platformers. A true 3D Sonic game would have almost certainly been a reality, and that alone would have sold millions more systems. Not to mention third party support would have been better with easier 3D tools to work with.

As great as NiGHTS into Dreams is, that is one game that I feel would almost certainly benefit from the different processor. As a 2.5D game, foggy backgrounds wouldn't be an issue like in a true 3D game, and the game could get an overall cleaner look. Imagine Mario 64 quality textures and environments.

I don't think the fog is favored by the N64's chipset per se. Fog just saves space. On Playstation or Saturn you'd have a bitmap image in the background, with fog you don't need that image.

This is very difficult to try to imagine because, even if Sega took the chipset, they wouldn't have made it into a cartridge system. So what you need to imagine is not Sega games on the N64, but Sega games on a hypothetical N64 CD.

Anyway, the main reason Sega rejected the chipset is because it wouldn't have been available in enough quantity soon enough for their liking. Remember that the N64 came out in the fall of '96 here and March '97 in Europe. I don't think that late start would have worked for Sega as well as it did for Nintendo. Imagine all of the arcade ports (and maybe PC/Playstation/3DO ports) that were released in '95 for the Saturn not coming out until late '96. Even if they ended up with better graphics than the actual Saturn releases, they would've been derided for their age. Well, either that or a bunch of them just don't come out at all. Maybe that means the 32x is more viable and becomes the well-supported stopgap it was intended to be, lasts a couple years, and gets a bunch of those games. But while that may have made the 32x more successful and longer-lived, I don't think running with the 32x for two years and releasing the Saturn in late '96 would have been a good plan for the Saturn. Their market would be more divided.

Barone
09-17-2017, 10:38 PM
We all know that Sega of America had a deal to use a chipset from Silicon Graphics in the Saturn, but Sega of Japan overruled the plan.
This is bullshit.
SOA was busy revolutionizing the industry with the Sega Multimedia Studio, preparing the 32X to sell millions, developing Sonic Xtreme to shock the world and helping Sony Imagesoft to build a line-up of games for the 5th generation.



That chipset was eventually used to power the Nintendo 64. I've always wondered - what if Sega used it instead?
It would've been even worse. Sega had their own hardware R&D, SGI stuff simply didn't make any sense to them.



We know that the N64 has a problem with draw distance like the Saturn does.
N64 has mostly fillrate-related issues while Saturn game's reduced draw distance is usually related to polygon rendering limitations.


Of all the "failed" 5th gen architectures, the one that could have been successful - if properly finished and $upported - was the Jaguar's IMO.

sull56ivan2010
09-17-2017, 11:04 PM
All systems of that generation had draw distance issues. Racing (or driving, car combat, etc...) games always had that problem. Ridge Racer, NASCAR, Driver, Daytona. The list goes on.

Nintendo 64 was pretty hard to develop games for. Even the emulation still has issues despite improvements. I'm not sure if the Saturn would have been easier (or harder) if it had SGI stuff.

Thief
09-17-2017, 11:35 PM
Games still have draw distance problems. If it's not poly's it's texture detail.

Benjamin
09-17-2017, 11:41 PM
Of course, with the SGI chipset, Sega would have had a much easier time creating 3D platformers. A true 3D Sonic game would have almost certainly been a reality, and that alone would have sold millions more systems. Not to mention third party support would have been better with easier 3D tools to work with.

Sega's libraries were good enough to deliver a solid Sonic game. The company just chose to abandon that idea for whatever reason. Remember that as complex as the Saturn may be, it's really Sega's hording of its development tools which hindered third-party development. I don't see that attitude changing with an SGI chipset instead, and I've seen enough people say that the N64 was a difficult machine itself.

In general, I think games would look worse with the SGI chipset. Higher resolution games such as VF2 and the KaZe pinball games would definitely suffer since the N64's high res mode isn't as high as the Saturn's, and then no game to my knowledge could actually use that mode for gameplay. We'd be going from 704x480 to 480x360. We've seen that the Saturn could go toe-to-toe with the PlayStation with releases like Dead or Alive and even offer improvements like better floor rendering. I'm not sure that exists on SGI. The lack of fighters on the system make me think that the system probably struggles with any kind of fast, demanding action games.

Blades
09-17-2017, 11:53 PM
Of all the "failed" 5th gen architectures, the one that could have been successful - if properly finished and $upported - was the Jaguar's IMO.

This needs explanation. The Jaguar was a mess with a very low performance ceiling. It was just a low-effort production. Even Carmack himself had to cut out music.

Eep386
09-18-2017, 01:39 AM
Jaguar's biggest issue was Atari themselves. Their marketing made Sega of America's marketing of the Saturn look accomplished. ('DO THE MATH!!1'.... :bull:)

The fact that the two main chips couldn't execute code from RAM due to an insanely stupid design blunder that should never have made it out of R&D, didn't help matters either.

TrekkiesUnite118
09-18-2017, 01:54 AM
N64 has mostly fillrate-related issues while Saturn game's reduced draw distance is usually related to polygon rendering limitations.


I thought you said once that the Saturn's issue was also fillrate related as VDP1 didn't have a high enough fillrate when compared to say the PS1?

Honestly I think the Saturn would have been ok if Sega just went for a global September 1995 release instead of a rushed November 1994 release. Use that extra year to polish the hardware out a bit more. Possibly beef up VDP1 to do proper polygons, handle transparencies and lighting better, make the memory more unified and less confusing to work with, etc. Also ditch the 32X and use that extra time to also turn many of those 32X games into launch Saturn titles. So for example have Doom, Star Wars Arcade, Virtua Racing Deluxe, Knuckles Chaotix, Space Harrier, After Burner, Shadow Squadron, etc. all ready for a September 1995 Saturn launch.

Barone
09-18-2017, 06:23 AM
This needs explanation. The Jaguar was a mess with a very low performance ceiling. It was just a low-effort production. Even Carmack himself had to cut out music.
Performance ceiling for textured 3D games was much better than the 32X, for an example, and it could have been available much earlier. If Sega was to go with the low-end 5th gen option route, the Jaguar's architecture made a lot more sense IMO.
Atari was dying at the time of its release and the hardware wasn't properly revised; being launched full of critical bugs. On paper, it has some serious advantages over the 3DO Multiplayer as well and I think it could have been far more cost effective than the Saturn we got.



I thought you said once that the Saturn's issue was also fillrate related as VDP1 didn't have a high enough fillrate when compared to say the PS1?
In the context of SAT vs PS1 and games which pushed the hardware to the max.
Most devs didn't know how to properly handle the Saturn's hardware for 3D to begin with, nor they had had the proper profiling tools to help identify the bottlenecks, etc. Ports, 3rd party games would usually have simpler 3D models and reduced draw distance to compensate for their puny rendering engines.



Honestly I think the Saturn would have been ok if Sega just went for a global September 1995 release instead of a rushed November 1994 release. Use that extra year to polish the hardware out a bit more. Possibly beef up VDP1 to do proper polygons, handle transparencies and lighting better, make the memory more unified and less confusing to work with, etc. Also ditch the 32X and use that extra time to also turn many of those 32X games into launch Saturn titles. So for example have Doom, Star Wars Arcade, Virtua Racing Deluxe, Knuckles Chaotix, Space Harrier, After Burner, Shadow Squadron, etc. all ready for a September 1995 Saturn launch.
The 32X should've never existed.
More unified and faster texture RAM would have helped IMO too.

Single and faster CPU would have been less scary to program for and it would give you better performance out-of-the-box.

Team Andromeda
09-18-2017, 07:43 AM
Here comes the Team Andromeda Sega of America lies rant.

Try no. SEGA were offered the SGI N64 chipset. Not that it would have helped much given SEGA wanted to launch in 1994 and the N64 hardware was seriously delayed so that wouldn't have helped SEGA. N64 software development was also hard (Treasure said even more harder) and double the price of the Saturn dev kit, so that's another area that wouldn't have helped. And tbh for all the talk, most PS games look better than the N64 and there are a ton of better looking Saturn games with also much better textured better sound and also a far better and more vibrant display running at a better FPS and Screen Res too.

Team Andromeda
09-18-2017, 07:55 AM
How would the Virtua Fighter games look on an N64? There's no real comparison as I think the only 3D fighter on N64 was Mortal Kombat. .

There are comparisons we had Fighters Destiny made by Ex AM#2 coders Genki and the results speak for themselves. Its not a patch on VF 2 runs at half the frame rate and much lower res. N64 was better for open world games, but most N64 games didn't look great had tons of fogging and washed out blurry textures Nevermind the terrible framerates seen in a lot of N64 games 64 or the lack of proper sound hardware


Not to mention third party support would have been better with easier 3D tools to work with.

There were not easier to work with, Warp and Tresure both said the N64 tools were worst than the Saturns, even RARE admitted the N64 was hard to work on


Again, none were made for N64, so we don't really know how that chip could handle hand drawn backgrounds and fighters. Same for 2D shooters, a staple of the Saturn lineup, especially in Japa

It could have done it for sure, but there's the cost. N64 development tools thanks to it being an SGI was really expensive so for many small 3rd parties making niche shooters thats a hurdle , never mind the the use of Carts are what really killed it for a lot of the small 3rd parties. When you have to bulk order for carts with no gauturee of selling them It was easier to go on CD-Rom.

What killed the Saturn is SEGA talking the consumer for granted and a bunch of mugs and trying to sell 2 different 32bit systems at the same time.

Team Andromeda
09-18-2017, 08:08 AM
Sega's libraries were good enough to deliver a solid Sonic game. The company just chose to abandon that idea for whatever reason. Remember that as complex as the Saturn may be, it's really Sega's hording of its development tools which hindered third-party development. .

Project Sonic (Sonic Adv) was in development for the Saturn, it was sadly moved up to Dreamcast production like a few other Saturn games. I really can't blame Sonic Team for wanting to try a new IP and make something new after 4 Sonic games in 4 years but do blame SEGA Japan for not getting a port of Sonic CD on the Saturn for the USA/UK launches . Sonic X was just in a mess from start to finish and a perfect example of how not to run a Studio, but SEGA America seemed to lose it and really mismanager their STI and Multi-Media studios. But there you go SOA and SOE were just convinced the 32X would sweep all before it, they never factored for one sec it wouldn't be anything other than a super success [/QUOTE]


We'd be going from 704x480 to 480x360. We've seen that the Saturn could go toe-to-toe with the PlayStation with releases like Dead or Alive and even offer improvements like better floor rendering.

Yep and also there are not many N64 games that run at 60 fps. 99% of N64 suffered from blurry washed out display and no many N64 games run in low res mod never mind the sound comes at a cost of CPU performance . SEGA were right to turn it down and Saturn would have had an inferior chipset given SOJ wanted to go in 84 . They should have taken the Handy hardware, It was so much better than their GameGear tech imo

Team Andromeda
09-18-2017, 08:15 AM
. Also ditch the 32X and use that extra time to also turn many of those 32X games into launch Saturn titles. So for example have Doom, Star Wars Arcade, Virtua Racing Deluxe, Knuckles Chaotix, Space Harrier, After Burner, Shadow Squadron, etc. all ready for a September 1995 Saturn launch.

That's what really needed to happen at the time. SOJ was always going to go for 94, but SEGA West could have gone in September 1995 with no 32X had games like Star Wars, VR Deluxe, Panzer Dragoon, VF Remix, Daytona, Doom, Clockwork Night 1 and II, Astal already for launch. That's a great lineup along with a SEGA totally united and focus on one system would have made it far easier for PR and selling to 3rd parties and retail. Not so sure about Transparteinces SOJ engineers just didn't seem to vaule them at the time as even its Model 1,2 Arcade boards had issues with them and had to use mesh effect some or most times, untill Model 3 in 96

Thief
09-18-2017, 11:58 AM
There were not easier to work with, Warp and Tresure both said the N64 tools were worst than the Saturns, even RARE admitted the N64 was hard to work on

I can't believe the only reason Donkey Kong Country on the N64 has the RAM expansion packed in with the game was because of a game crashing glitch that would occur and no matter what they tried, they couldn't fix it. So instead pouring more resources into figuring out the issue, they just packed in the RAM expansion because it fixed the issue.

Sik
09-18-2017, 01:16 PM
I doubt the SGI chipset would have helped...

I've been looking at Saturn docs these months, and in my opinion: VDP1 (the 3D one) is relatively easy to cope (even with its quirks, it boils down to making a list of polygons and telling it to go render them). VDP2 (the 2D one) looks like a horrible overengineered beast with like 16 different ways to interprete color, it's so bad that you have to tell it exactly how to spend its memory accesses x_x I have to look more into it yet, but it's not looking like it'll be fun. Probably Sega would have been better off with a simpler VDP2 instead of a more beefy VDP1.

Thief
09-18-2017, 01:37 PM
Cool, Sik. Would be nice to hear more on what you discover looking over Saturn docs in the future.

Team Andromeda
09-18-2017, 02:47 PM
I doubt the SGI chipset would have helped...

I've been looking at Saturn docs these months, and in my opinion: VDP1 (the 3D one) is relatively easy to cope (even with its quirks, it boils down to making a list of polygons and telling it to go render them). VDP2 (the 2D one) looks like a horrible overengineered beast with like 16 different ways to interprete color, it's so bad that you have to tell it exactly how to spend its memory accesses x_x I have to look more into it yet, but it's not looking like it'll be fun. Probably Sega would have been better off with a simpler VDP2 instead of a more beefy VDP1.

Some SEGA Japan insdiders said that the SH-2 and VDP II along with the Sound hardware were the bits of the Saturn finished 1st, it was the 2nd SH-2 and beefing up the VDP 1 that was the rushed part. I guess we'll never know other than the say the chipset was the best SEGA Japan could make at the time and all they could give.
Rather than look back with if or butts on chips we don't know were available or what was possible at SOJ . I rather look on stuff that could have been done better at the time. Really the system should have had sound compression or double the sound RAM, The Cart port should have had better connectors (changing the Ram carts is pain) SEGA really should have had Sonic CD on the system with some Saturn effects, full-screen FMV, and a polygon bonus section.

I also would have stopped all Mega Drive game production and moved them up to Saturn. A 2 player 24 bit colour (with full CD-AD music) Comic Zone could have been really nice as would have been all the 32X games all ready to for the launch. Also, I would have waited until VF Remix was ready and included the 2 Clockwork Knights games in one package too. Simple moves that would have made the Saturn launch a hell of a lot better

redsox2013
09-18-2017, 04:16 PM
While I was mainly thinking about performance, we also have to consider price. Even if Sega ditched the 1994 Japanese release and the May 1995 U.S. surprise and released worldwide in late 1995, could they have gotten the launch price down to $299 to match the Playstation? With more time, Sega may have been better able to engineer the existing chips for better performance, but ultimately it's still the same expensive chipset.

I agree with TA above that packing in VF Remix would have been better, as well as being able to improve Daytona (solid 30 FPS and less pop-up).

Sik
09-18-2017, 04:33 PM
Some SEGA Japan insdiders said that the SH-2 and VDP II along with the Sound hardware were the bits of the Saturn finished 1st, it was the 2nd SH-2 and beefing up the VDP 1 that was the rushed part. I guess we'll never know other than the say the chipset was the best SEGA Japan could make at the time and all they could give.
I need to look around which interview it was (note to self: gather all interviews and put them together in a single place), but if I recall correctly the Saturn was the first time they requested input from developers (until then the hardware department was just cramming in whatever they thought would be nice and fit). The problem is that it seems that AM2 was like the only of Sega's studios that actually knew much about 3D, everybody else wanted to stick to 2D. Given that proportion, I'd say I'm not surprised that the VDP2 became a mess as they tried to cram in every possible 2D feature they could think on.


SEGA really should have had Sonic CD on the system with some Saturn effects, full-screen FMV, and a polygon bonus section.
Sega should have had a proper 3D Sonic game on the Saturn at launch or near launch, period. I think that's what everybody was expecting about them and would have sold units on its own simply because fans would have wanted to play that game (that's literally the whole point of a killer app).

stu
09-18-2017, 05:19 PM
I also would have stopped all Mega Drive game production and moved them up to Saturn. A 2 player 24 bit colour (with full CD-AD music) Comic Zone could have been really nice as would have been all the 32X games all ready to for the launch. Also, I would have waited until VF Remix was ready and included the 2 Clockwork Knights games in one package too. Simple moves that would have made the Saturn launch a hell of a lot better

I'm not sure it would have been necessary to stop all MD game production. The MD by then was at a bargain basement price and was still selling. I would actually say that if they had killed of all the other systems that they had (like MS,GG and the MCD and obviously no 32X :)) and just kept the MD and Saturn development that I think Sega would have done better. You only have to look at the sales of the MD version of Sonic 3D, apparently it sold around 700,000 units - not bad for a system that was supposedly dead! There is also a precedent with how Sega kept the Master System going along side the MD. Obviously make the Saturn the main system, but with some of the bigger games maybe put out a Genesis/MD version to tie in with the game.

j_factor
09-18-2017, 06:15 PM
While I was mainly thinking about performance, we also have to consider price. Even if Sega ditched the 1994 Japanese release and the May 1995 U.S. surprise and released worldwide in late 1995, could they have gotten the launch price down to $299 to match the Playstation?

The Saturn's price was reduced to $299 in October of 1995. So I think so.

Team Andromeda
09-19-2017, 03:44 AM
I need to look around which interview it was (note to self: gather all interviews and put them together in a single place), but if I recall correctly the Saturn was the first time they requested input from developers app).

I have some old interviews with SEGA Japan and the likes of Yoji Ishii and they confirm that the main reason the Saturn used SH-2, was that the original planned Saturn CPU just wasn't good enough for 3D graphics so it was changed to the SH-2. So the Saturn was always meant to be to handle 3D, but yes after seeing the PSX spec I guess Saturn had to beef up the VDP1 and also doubled the SH2 CPU


Sega should have had a proper 3D Sonic game on the Saturn at launch or near launch, perio

That just wasn't possible or feasible. The Sonic Team were working on S&K till late 1994, so no way would any Sonic game would have been ready to go in 1994 or 1995 . So seeing as so litttle people have a Mega CD much less played Sonic CD, it would have been nice if SEGA ported Sonic CD to the Saturn put in some fancy Saturn sprite effects, nice 60 fps VDFP 2 bonus section with polygons used on the UFO and full-screen FMV and maybe even thrown in Sonic the Arcade game as a bonus. That would have done for the Western launches I feel, untill the Sonic Team were ready to make their new Sonic in late 1996. With out the 32X, Sonic X would have only one platform to be worked on and that also would have given that game a better chance of making it out too.

Team Andromeda
09-19-2017, 03:52 AM
I'm not sure it would have been necessary to stop all MD game production. The MD by then was at a bargain basement price and was still selling. I would actually say that if they had killed of all the other systems that they had (like MS,GG and the MCD and obviously no 32X :)) and just kept the MD and Saturn development that I think Sega would have done better. You only have to look at the sales of the MD version of Sonic 3D, apparently it sold around 700,000 units - not bad for a system that was supposedly dead! There is also a precedent with how Sega kept the Master System going along side the MD. Obviously make the Saturn the main system, but with some of the bigger games maybe put out a Genesis/MD version to tie in with the game.

Just becasue you move your In-House teams to the new system, doesn't mean you stop production or tool support for the older console. Its only what the likes of SONY, MS, Nintendo do . They still keep manufacturing their older systems, giving better deals and also better tools, but let 3rd parties make the software and for them to become entry-level systems or use 1st parties to make the games for you and publish them. SEGA should have done the same it did to a point with the move to Master system to Mega Drive (where is had the likes of Sims and compile to make MS games for it) and moved all its In-House Mega Drive production to the Saturn to help out with its launch software and make sure there is a feed of games for the following months.
I like Comix Zone but its would have been better onthe Saturn with 24 Bit colour, 2 player support and instead of a CD music disc given away with the MD game, you could have used that for the main tracks of the Saturn game.

Blades
09-19-2017, 01:46 PM
That would have done for the Western launches I feel, untill the Sonic Team were ready to make their new Sonic in late 1996.

That means no NiGHTS though.

Team Andromeda
09-19-2017, 02:46 PM
That means no NiGHTS though.

Should have made it more clear, I meant start production of the new Sonic title in middle 96, which is what Sonic Team did more so as after NiGHTS Sonic Team grew to 2 lines after the CS Rally Team joined their ranks . If all ifs and buts, but if SEGA was just focused on the Saturn and it did a better job of the Saturn and its software. We could have had a 96 Sonic from the STI team and then another Sonic following on in 1997 or early 98 from the main Sonic Team themselves along with Burning Rangers. It could have been so different

Thief
09-19-2017, 02:51 PM
Didn't Naka take like a year off after S&K to learn the Saturn.

Team Andromeda
09-19-2017, 03:00 PM
Didn't Naka take like a year off after S&K to learn the Saturn.

6 months to learn the Saturn is what Naka-san said in an interview, but while learning the hardware they were also prepping the new game. Its not like the Sonic Team had 6 months off and were doing nothing while doing R&D on the Saturn

Thief
09-19-2017, 03:06 PM
6 months to learn the Saturn is what Naka-san said in an interview, but while learning the hardware they were also prepping the new game. Its not like the Sonic Team had 6 months off and were doing nothing while doing R&D on the Saturn

Alright, thanks for the clarification.

Team Andromeda
09-19-2017, 03:16 PM
Alright, thanks for the clarification.

Its ok, the game went through over at least 3 revisions including one that was more like Indiana Jones type game . At 1st it started life out as a complete hand-drawn 2D game using the full power of the Saturn 2D chipset confirmed by Naoto Ohshima interview . I would have loved to seen that build, the only think that was there at the start was flight

Thief
09-19-2017, 04:21 PM
Interesting. Would loved to have seen that too.