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Blades
12-14-2017, 12:10 PM
The Genesis (and Master System) had no shortage of fantastic RPGs, often developed by Sega themselves (Phantasy Star). Neither did the Dreamcast.

So what happened with the Saturn? It seems like most of the RPGs released for the system were developed by 3rd parties and translated by Working Designs. Where was the Saturn's Phantasy Star?

Team Andromeda
12-14-2017, 12:59 PM
The Genesis (and Master System) had no shortage of fantastic RPGs, often developed by Sega themselves (Phantasy Star). Neither did the Dreamcast.

So what happened with the Saturn? It seems like most of the RPGs released for the system were developed by 3rd parties and translated by Working Designs. Where was the Saturn's Phantasy Star?

The Saturn had loads of RPG's from SEGA, sadly most never made into the USA or were ever translated. SEGA gave the Saturn The Shining Force trilogy, the Sakura Wars series, Shining Wisdom, Shining inthe Holy Ark, Dark Saviour, Blue Seed, Magic KnightRay Earth, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Dragon Force series, WachenRoder to name by a few developed or published by SEGA. Never mind the stack loads of ones from 3rd parties.

gamevet
12-14-2017, 01:53 PM
You got Shining Wisdom, Shining Force III and Shining: The Hoky Ark instead of Phantasy Star.

Black_Tiger
12-14-2017, 02:00 PM
32-bit RPGs don't get better that Tengai Makyou The Apocalypse 4.

What are all of these SMS RPGs I've never heard of? Doesn't the Saturn have like tens times more and the Dreamcast many more as well?

Eldorado Gate is 7 cool RPGs for Dreamcast, which alone should outnumber SMS unless there really are a bunch of unheard RPGs out there.

I think that you have to be pretty flexible with the definition of RPG to say that the SMS has more than 3 or 4 and even then you barely reach a dozen adventure, point 'n click, misc hybrid games. That flexibily woykd qualify dozens of Saturn games like:

Dragon Slayer
Ys
Ys II
Xanadu
Temple Del Sol Aztec II
Phantasy Star 1 - 4
Langrisser 1 - 4
Shining Force III sc 1 - 3 + P
Shining Holy Ark
Shining Wusdom
Riglord Saga 1, 2
Blue Breaker
Sky Adventure
Lunar SSS, EB and MS
Grandia and DM
Albert Odyssey
Blue Seed 9
Panzer Dragoon Azel
Magic Kbight Rayearth
Warcraft II
AD&D Collection
Guarduan Heroes
Ogre Battle
Tactics Ogre
Megai Tensei DS and SH
Endless "digital adventure" games
Super Hydlide
Dark Saviour
Story of Thor
Blazing Dragons
Black Matrix
Wachenrider
Princess Crown
Samurai Spirits RPG
SotN
Vandal Hearts
Suikoden
Farland Saga...

Blades
12-14-2017, 02:15 PM
Looks like I was very wrong, and Iíve never been happier to be!

Should I start with Shining?

Thief
12-14-2017, 02:57 PM
Well the Shining games are the best, so if you start with that the others will be more of a let down. From personal experience PDS was a massive let down after four main Saturn Shining games. Watchenroder was pretty 'meh' too.

gamevet
12-14-2017, 02:58 PM
Half of those RPGs do me no good, because of the language barrier. And don't waste your time with Virtual Hydlide, it was horrible. The list is also missing the awesome Dragon Force games, as well as Dark Savior.


There is a fan translation of Policenauts that I need to burn a copy of. I really liked playing Snatcher back in the day.

Thief
12-14-2017, 03:32 PM
Scenario 2 & 3 of Shining Force have nice translation patches, and for Watchenroder I used a GameFAQs translation text file.

Black_Tiger
12-14-2017, 04:13 PM
Half of those RPGs do me no good, because of the language barrier. And don't waste your time with Virtual Hydlide, it was horrible. The list is also missing the awesome Dragon Force games, as well as Dark Savior.


There is a fan translation of Policenauts that I need to burn a copy of. I really liked playing Snatcher back in the day.

Half of the Mega Drive/Mega-CD RPGs won't do you any good either.

There are still a lot of RPG'ish games released in English for Saturn and Dreamcast.

Team Andromeda
12-14-2017, 04:29 PM
Looks like I was very wrong, and Iíve never been happier to be!

Should I start with Shining?

No Start with Panzer Dragoon Saga or the likes of Dark Savour. Shining In the Holy Ark is awesome though and while it's not from SEGA Albert Odyssey is an amazing RPG with one of the best music scores around and most of it comes off the sound chip (for people who like that sort of stuff)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YR7MPIHYj4&index=6&list=PL1D1180CB43FBD223


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HfQ3SfDNTg&list=PL1D1180CB43FBD223&index=10

BubsyFan1
12-14-2017, 05:25 PM
Has anyone played Mystaria/Blazing Heroes? That's one I've been interested in playing for a while.

EclecticGroove
12-14-2017, 06:08 PM
Has anyone played Mystaria/Blazing Heroes? That's one I've been interested in playing for a while.

Yeah, it's decent. It's not as good or polished as SF III, but it's a pretty decent strategy RPG.

gamevet
12-14-2017, 09:37 PM
Has anyone played Mystaria/Blazing Heroes? That's one I've been interested in playing for a while.

I loved it, though the one thing that bothered me is that you couldn't save a game during a battle, and some of those could last nearly an hour.

bultje112
12-15-2017, 02:39 AM
The Genesis (and Master System) had no shortage of fantastic RPGs, often developed by Sega themselves (Phantasy Star). Neither did the Dreamcast.

So what happened with the Saturn? It seems like most of the RPGs released for the system were developed by 3rd parties and translated by Working Designs. Where was the Saturn's Phantasy Star?

not a single sega console has the amount of sega rpg's released on it like the saturn and on top of that almost all of them are 8/10 at least. below 8/10 or higher games from sega only:

dragon force
dragon force 2
virus (japanese only)
shining force 3 scenario 1
shining force 3 scenario 2
shining force 3 scenario 3
shining the holy ark
panzer dragoon saga
story of thor 2
magic knight rayearth
dark savior
mystaria

Blades
12-17-2017, 05:06 PM
I have tried some of these RPGs, and they are all fantastic technically.

This is nitpicky, but I'll ask anyway. I really enjoyed all four Phantasy Stars. Describing what I liked about them is difficult. It's the serious atmosphere, the blending of science fiction and surrealism, the music, the tone, and the art style. Few people would say Phantasy Star is light-hearted. It's been a long time since I got as into an RPG as I did with the four Phantasy Stars. Maybe Yakuza...

The Saturn RPGs certainly look and sound great. However for example, Magic Knight Rayearth doesn't have the same type of tone. I picked MKR because it was directed by the same person who directed the first Phantasy Star. While good, MKR is undeniably different in tone.

I also tried finding the scenario writer from the original Phantasy Stars, but he doesn't have any writing credits since the Genesis (Ossale Kohta).

It seems like all the Saturn RPGs mentioned are either quirky fun like MKR or medieval fantasy like Shining or Albert Odyssey.

Can anyone recommend anything based on what I've said, Saturn or otherwise? I will play it before I comment.

Phantasy Star Saga stands as the only example out of the ordinary I have yet to try.

NeoZeedeater
12-17-2017, 05:26 PM
Panzer Dragoon Saga was definitely the closest to giving me the feeling the old Phantasy Star games did in terms of quality and exploring a future/past-inspired world. Still, the battle system and linearity give it a different vibe.

Team Andromeda
12-18-2017, 04:31 AM
. However for example, Magic Knight Rayearth doesn't have the same type of tone.

Blue Seed, Cyber Doll, Meltylancer Ginga Shoujo Keisatsu 2086, Virus shame they are all in Japanese. I was quite gutted that Virus was never translated since that was a Big project by SEGA Japan and hudson

DSwizzy145
12-18-2017, 08:22 PM
Blue Seed, Cyber Doll, Meltylancer Ginga Shoujo Keisatsu 2086, Virus shame they are all in Japanese. I was quite gutted that Virus was never translated since that was a Big project by SEGA Japan and hudson

I LOVED Virus and Cyber Doll! How come neither of those two got a fan translation or official translation?

Blades
12-18-2017, 08:26 PM
How are you guys playing these games? I don't understand Japanese at all.

DSwizzy145
12-18-2017, 08:33 PM
How are you guys playing these games? I don't understand Japanese at all.

Trial & Error :p or the few Gamefaqs English Translation text guides online

Black_Tiger
12-18-2017, 11:48 PM
How are you guys playing these games? I don't understand Japanese at all.

I learned enough to play through most Japanese RPGs, digital adventure, war sims, etc by just playing them bitd and picking up a lot along the way, long before I had access to a Japanese dictionary. Nowadays it's much easier with the internet, guides and katakana/hiragana charts.

bultje112
12-19-2017, 05:20 AM
Panzer Dragoon Saga was definitely the closest to giving me the feeling the old Phantasy Star games did in terms of quality and exploring a future/past-inspired world. Still, the battle system and linearity give it a different vibe.

in terms of production values it is the best game ever made for the 32bit generation. it was the most expensive game ever made and it shows.

Team Andromeda
12-19-2017, 05:23 AM
I LOVED Virus and Cyber Doll! How come neither of those two got a fan translation or official translation?

I loved Virus too, its down to the fact that SEGA America didn't have a clue inthe 32 bit era and also went to uspet and pee off the one corp that would may have translated them. Thanks for nothing Tom and Bernie , though I do have to say if Tom was still at SOA we may have seen Grandia on the Saturn inthe west

bultje112
12-19-2017, 05:24 AM
How are you guys playing these games? I don't understand Japanese at all.

a number of games have been translated and for the other ones I use an e-reader, like the sakura taisen games and virus. that last one really needs a translation though. is arguably even better than snatcher and policenauts. was also one of the most expensive games made on saturn. so much money was invested in a joint venture by sega and hudson.

Team Andromeda
12-19-2017, 05:34 AM
in terms of production values it is the best game ever made for the 32bit generation. it was the most expensive game ever made and it shows.

I doubt it cost the $40 million it cost square to make FF7, but it wouldn't be far off. It set the standards for SEGA and huge massive productions with-in the group. The very 1st Panzer game was said to be the most expensive SEGA game ever made in the grops histort be that for Arcade or Arcades. SEGA really did splash the cash when it came to Panzer.

Team Andromeda
12-19-2017, 05:36 AM
How are you guys playing these games? I don't understand Japanese at all.

You can get by, more so these days, (back inthe day I had to use the likes of SSM Grandia import gudie) but at the end of the day what is the point. One misses out on the story and character development, which is really what makes an RPG imo

bultje112
12-19-2017, 05:59 AM
I doubt it cost the $40 million it cost square to make FF7, but it wouldn't be far off. It set the standards for SEGA and huge massive productions with-in the group. The very 1st Panzer game was said to be the most expensive SEGA game ever made in the grops histort be that for Arcade or Arcades. SEGA really did splash the cash when it came to Panzer.

Panzer dragoon saga actually cost 43 million dollars to make and it shows in the much better fmv's and fully voiced dialogue of the entire game. after playing final fantasy 7 and being blown away, panzer dragoon saga felt like a truly 32 bit rpg. it was another step, with all the voice work, full 3d environment and more free roaming worlds.

a similar thing happened with metal gear solid for psx. another major step for 32 bit gaming.

Team Andromeda
12-19-2017, 06:13 AM
Panzer dragoon saga actually cost 43 million dollars to make and it shows

I've never seen SEGA Japan put a final figure on its costs. I agree that Saga is better and far more impressive, but I'm not sure if cost as much. SEGA did like to lead the way on voiced dialogue with the likes of Popful Mail, Saga and Magic Knight Rayearth - which was the 1st I'm sure where every character in the game had voiced dialogue, sadly taken out of the USA version

Black_Tiger
12-19-2017, 09:56 AM
I've never seen SEGA Japan put a final figure on its costs. I agree that Saga is better and far more impressive, but I'm not sure if cost as much. SEGA did like to lead the way on voiced dialogue with the likes of Popful Mail, Saga and Magic Knight Rayearth - which was the 1st I'm sure where every character in the game had voiced dialogue, sadly taken out of the USA version

Are you just talking about Sega's first in their own games? There are Turbo and PC Engine CD games that are 100% voice acted without any text.

profholt82
12-19-2017, 10:02 AM
Was a PS game ever in development for the Saturn, or did they just scrap the series all together during that time?

Team Andromeda
12-19-2017, 10:03 AM
Are you just talking about Sega's first in their own games? There are Turbo and PC Engine CD games that are 100% voice acted without any text.

A little bit of both . Popfulmail was one of the 1st but not everyone had spoken dialogue , but Magic Knight Rayearth had every character feature spoken dialogue.

Blades
12-22-2017, 01:37 PM
Was a PS game ever in development for the Saturn, or did they just scrap the series all together during that time?

I read an interview with Rieko Kodama where she said that Phantasy Star IV wrapped up the series well, but V was in development for a while. Since IV came out in late 1993 in Japan, V was probably in development for the Saturn.

Kodama later went on to make Magic Knight Rayearth for the Saturn in 1995.

BubsyFan1
12-27-2017, 05:29 PM
I remember reading an interview with Kodama where she said there were discussions for a fifth game where The Great Light was actually evil, which I thought was kind of cool because I remember thinking of scenarios for a fifth game with that same idea. It does seem like an obvious course of action (especially since there was something about TGL that always seemed suspicious to me), but I couldn't help but fist pump a little inside.

Jeckidy
04-13-2018, 04:00 AM
I'v been critical of Grandia in the past, but I've come to accept the game more over time. I must say that, although I own and have played the game on PSN, the PS1 version's downgrades are so repulsive and annoying that I can only enjoy the original Saturn version. The blurry, low-res battle backgrounds in the PS1 port are a big killer for me. Looking forward to seeing the Saturn version in English (there's already a Korean fan translation) but I have learned enough Japanese to understand a good amount of it in conjunction with having played the PS1 version, too.

The Japanese were not enthusiastic about PDS. It was too dark and realistic compared to Grandia which did in fact become a best-seller. Although the Japanese PDS (Azel) is easier to find than it's English counterpart (I assume because of higher production numbers) it did not make it into the SataKore greatest hits line, and it tends to get more mediocre ratings from Japanese publications than US ones. I personally disagree, of course, and the Japanese don't always have it right, but I do understand the difference in terms of cultural appeal and taste. Japanese reviewers will give it somewhere between 6 or 7 out of 10 on average, whereas Grandia gets 9 or 10, maybe 8 at the very least.

EmperorIng
04-13-2018, 03:02 PM
Grandia's downgrades coming to the PS1 are a shame, but the game is so good I am glad that people got to experience it in English anyhow. Better still, since you know the Saturn version probably would have been fucked with by Vic Ireland's posse. :cool:

I've been playing a bit of Shining the Holy Ark. When I first played the game getting my Saturn like 6+ years ago now, I hated it. I didn't like the slow framerate chugging in towns, or how the game got ludicrously difficult. Many years later, and having a better understanding of dungeon-crawlers, I can enjoy the game a lot more, even if the slowdown is still annoying - as well as the difficulty spike! The fairy system adds a twitch element to random battles that is kinda annoying (I always forget which sprite is mapped to which button, and which to use for enemies coming up, down, left, right... agh) but it is a fun extra flavor to the resource-management, battles, and crawling. It's probably one of the better 3D first-person dungeon-crawlers of the generation that I've played.

Shining the Holy Ark also serves as a good way of forgetting that the horrendous piece of garbage Shining Wisdom ever existed. A game so bad that Motoaki Takenouchi cited it as his reason to quit composing for videogames. If true, no punishment is too severe for that game - people should smash their precious Working Designs releases with a giant hammer.

Leynos
04-13-2018, 03:25 PM
First experienced it on PS1. Later played it on SS but I typically play it on PS1 because of English. Grandia II, however, I refuse to accept anything other than Dreamcast. No downgrades and no cut scene changes. Also 1080P thanks to the VGA/HDMI box.

Lion
04-13-2018, 03:57 PM
I really don't get the hatred of Working Designs. For better or worse, they put real effort into their stuff, and I'd take some of their more loose and colorful translations, like Albert Odyssey, over the apparently dry originals any day.

EmperorIng
04-13-2018, 04:15 PM
I really don't get the hatred of Working Designs. For better or worse, they put real effort into their stuff, and I'd take some of their more loose and colorful translations, like Albert Odyssey, over the apparently dry originals any day.

I'll take their 'loose' translations and stomach the Clinton jokes, but I'd rather not take their asinine design changes to the original games. Just because 1 out of any given 10 of them were genuine improvements doesn't mean much when so much balance was thrown out the window.

Lion
04-13-2018, 04:58 PM
I'll take their 'loose' translations and stomach the Clinton jokes, but I'd rather not take their asinine design changes to the original games. Just because 1 out of any given 10 of them were genuine improvements doesn't mean much when so much balance was thrown out the window.

Are you referring to how they liked to make their games harder, so people wouldn't just finish 'em over the weekend and then return them? Because from a business perspective, I can understand why they did that. I know this unfortunately broke Exile Wicked Phenomenon, but I don't don't know of any other disasters caused by it. If there are other examples, do tell. I haven't played all their games.

And yeah, the political jokes I could do without too.

Team Andromeda
04-14-2018, 12:18 AM
Grandia's downgrades coming to the PS1 are a shame, but the game is so good I am glad that people got to experience it in English anyhow. Better still, since you know the Saturn version probably would have been fucked with by Vic Ireland's posse. :cool:.

I really don't get your hatred of WD games, Sure lines of text was changed, but that happens in most translations. I would have much rathered had WD translated Grandia to the Saturn with the main story intact, quality voice acting and the quality printed foil manuals. Than he joke that was the SONY western port and the complete lack of any port from SOA/SOE.
I much rathered the WD version of Shining Wisdom that the Pal SEGA translation myself.

EmperorIng
04-14-2018, 12:28 AM
I said the translation was something I was ok with. It's the game changes that are irksome because they are usually almost always to the game's detriment. These games are designed around certain parameters, and outside of the Telenet shit that WD started with on the PC Engine (stuff like Exile) which was broken to begin with, there was no need to appoint themselves master game designers because Vic and co. clearly weren't. There changes reek of amateur stupidity, if not outright hostility towards the source material.

E.G. Elemental Gearbolt, increasing all the enemy stats without accounting for how your guns deal damage, making what was an enjoyable and tough lightgun game into an unbearable slog.
or Raystorm, where you were purposefully locked out of playing the original arcade difficulty (you know, for a game designed around its arcade difficulty) by making it so that any time you wanted to set the difficulty to its Japanese default the game would end after stage 3
Or Albert Odyssey which "compensated" for the lowering the random battle rate by tripling the health of the boring boss fights, making some of them last for over an hour of repeating the same tactic over and over again.

There's a reason why those Un-Worked Designs patches are so well-received, because they keep the thing that people more or less like (dated pop-culture jokes aside), and remove all the stupid shit Vic Ireland added to the games.

But that's besides the point of the thread. Not even a silly WD localization could save Shining Wisdom though. Nothing could save that broken, crappy game. Virtual Hydlide is a better Saturn RPG, and you know I am telling the truth.

bultje112
04-14-2018, 04:08 AM
shining wisdom is a fine game. but you should play the pal version that has a correct translation linking the older shining games and worlds.

Team Andromeda
04-14-2018, 06:22 AM
But that's besides the point of the thread. Not even a silly WD localization could save Shining Wisdom though. Nothing could save that broken, crappy game. Virtual Hydlide is a better Saturn RPG, and you know I am telling the truth.

TBH I've always found all the Shining games way overrated and none have much of a story or a compelling cast of Characters. I don't mind The WD changes for village talk, when that is a load of rubbish and would really matter if it was changed or not. From what I read Saga had some changes to its text and story for the Western release and the ending changed too, Skies of Arcadia had quite a lot of its texts changed and people hold it up to be a classic in the west.

Ive loved WD ports and so very wished they had the rights to translate Grandia on the Saturn back in the dayb

bultje112
04-14-2018, 10:14 AM
shining force 3 scenarios have a fabulous storyline and character development.

Team Andromeda
04-14-2018, 10:23 AM
shining force 3 scenarios have a fabulous storyline and character development.

I found the 1st one to be rather lame and boring. I've never played the fan translations, so can't comment on them. Grandina story, cast of characters and sense of Adventure was and to this day, just amazing.

Lion
04-14-2018, 02:38 PM
I said the translation was something I was ok with. It's the game changes that are irksome because they are usually almost always to the game's detriment. These games are designed around certain parameters, and outside of the Telenet shit that WD started with on the PC Engine (stuff like Exile) which was broken to begin with, there was no need to appoint themselves master game designers because Vic and co. clearly weren't. There changes reek of amateur stupidity, if not outright hostility towards the source material.

Or Albert Odyssey which "compensated" for the lowering the random battle rate by tripling the health of the boring boss fights, making some of them last for over an hour of repeating the same tactic over and over again.

There's a reason why those Un-Worked Designs patches are so well-received, because they keep the thing that people more or less like (dated pop-culture jokes aside), and remove all the stupid shit Vic Ireland added to the games.

It wasn't all bad. They improved loading times to and from battle in Albert a lot too, and I definitely appreciate the lowering of the encounter rate. And while I don't remember having any trouble with the length of the boss fights in it, they would seem to have learned their lesson there, since they did the opposite in Alundra.

On a side note, I'm not sure how many of these changes they actually made themselves. For those who don't know, I believe Vic mentioned somewhere (don't remember if it was in the translation notes or a forum post) that they would send a list of changes they wanted to the original developer, who would then implement them for them. They couldn't do this any number of times however, so testing how the desired changes worked out and then tweaking further would have been hard or impossible. This was the wall they ran into with Exile, where the tweaks broke something and accidentally made the game much harder than anticipated. But they'd used up their quota, so to speak, and so they had to ship it like that. I dunno if this was just in the earlier days though, maybe they had their own people doing this stuff later on.

As for Shining Wisdom, yeah, it was definitely disappointing. I do wonder though, how it would've turned out if they'd made it for MD or MCD or whatever they originally had in mind for it. Is there any information about that out there?

Team Andromeda
04-16-2018, 11:36 AM
It wasn't all bad. They improved loading times to and from battle in Albert a lot too, and I definitely appreciate the lowering of the encounter rate. And while I don't remember having any trouble with the length of the boss fights in it, they would seem to have learned their lesson there, since they did the opposite in Alundra.

On a side note, I'm not sure how many of these changes they actually made themselves. For those who don't know, I believe Vic mentioned somewhere (don't remember if it was in the translation notes or a forum post) that they would send a list of changes they wanted to the original developer, who would then implement them for them. They couldn't do this any number of times however, so testing how the desired changes worked out and then tweaking further would have been hard or impossible. This was the wall they ran into with Exile, where the tweaks broke something and accidentally made the game much harder than anticipated.

Yep, there is always that when you are handling someone else game, you have to have all changes approved. WD made some nice changes like 30% reduction in Combat, better loading times and simple stuff like using the L and R buttons on the menus. Its a shame some of their bigger plans like turning off spell animations, dying animations to speed up battles ever more, along with a host of other nice chnages were taken out at the last min. I also thought their Dragon Force and Iron Storm Saturn ports were brilliant too. Such a shame Bernie was such a dick head with the Saturn and upset one of SOA better 3rd party outfits for bringing games over from Japan, that most including SOA didn't touch.

Who knows without Bernie silly E3 actions with WD, we might have had Grandia and Sukura Wars brought over to the West on the Saturn, to join the games WD already agreed the rights too, like with Battle Garrega, Thunder Force V, Lunar 1 and II and Sokuy... Thanks for nothing Bernie!!!

Blades
04-18-2018, 06:13 AM
Clinton jokes?

Team Andromeda
04-18-2018, 07:06 AM
Clinton jokes?

What the big fuss over that, when the Japanese version not doubt have references that only the Japanese would understand or appreciate for village talk. The main story, the main cast are all intact.

BonusKun
04-19-2018, 04:13 PM
Honestly Lunar 2 on Sega CD was annoying as fucking dogshit that Victor implemented a "Pay to Save" system to make the game harder. That was beyond fucking stupid.

IrishNinja
04-19-2018, 04:59 PM
yeah, it's been said, but

panzer dragoon saga
dragon force
shining: the holy ark
shining force III: scenario 1-3 (now fully playable)
magic kngiht rayearth
albert odyssey i guess

if grandia would've been translated, this would be a better JRPG lineup than lots of systems saw


Honestly Lunar 2 on Sega CD was annoying as fucking dogshit that Victor implemented a "Pay to Save" system to make the game harder. That was beyond fucking stupid.

which sucks, since i think SCD's OST is better than parts of the PSX remakes...but now im just wanting to replay the un-WD version if i can ever burn it right

Gryson
04-19-2018, 05:24 PM
What the big fuss over that, when the Japanese version not doubt have references that only the Japanese would understand or appreciate for village talk. The main story, the main cast are all intact.

No, actually, the Japanese version is pretty standard JRPG stuff. No weird pop culture references or poop jokes.

It's actually quite shocking how far Working Designs went with the "translation". It's a bit of a stretch to even call it a translation.

See here for some excellent comparisons:

https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue

For example:


Original Japanese translation: It takes magical power to become a knight... but isn't that kind of strange!?

Working Designs version: GRUEL, GRUEL, THE MAGICAL SOUP, THE MORE YOU SLURP, THE MORE YOU POOP... HA HA HA HA HA....I JUST MADE THAT UP. FUNNY, HUH?

Right...

Blades
04-19-2018, 05:42 PM
^Lol wtf.

I always thought those were direct translations from the originals, turns out WD is just 7 years old. That certainly doesn't help the Saturn's case.

Team Andromeda
04-20-2018, 01:46 AM
No, actually, the Japanese version is pretty standard JRPG stuff. No weird pop culture references or poop jokes.

It's actually quite shocking how far Working Designs went with the "translation". It's a bit of a stretch to even call it a translation.




But the main story and cast of characters is there, Villiage talk is all a bit meaningless. I remember Skies of Arcadia SOA changed parts of the story, script, and idioms (I knew some of the staff translating that game) . If Working Designs had done that, they'll be uproar. It just seems to be very cool to hate on WD.
What drastic changes did WD make with Iron Storm, Dragon Force compared to the Japanese versions?

bultje112
04-20-2018, 01:52 AM
Honestly Lunar 2 on Sega CD was annoying as fucking dogshit that Victor implemented a "Pay to Save" system to make the game harder. That was beyond fucking stupid.

working designs fucked up so many games. vay is so terribly translated that in the first hour you encounter a cursed woman who can make you travel through the powers of her farts(!) she also killed her pets because of the smell of her farts...

working designs fucked up so many games, often breaking the 4th wall for no reason as well, or trying to be 90s hip.

cccmar
04-21-2018, 07:55 AM
I'm in two minds about this, being a translator myself. On the one hand, the original writer's intent should be respected, and making stuff up generally only makes the script dumber/more cringey than it needs to be. On the other hand, some of these older games are written in a really dry way, without any hint of humour whatsoever, and it really makes one want to touch up the script. In this sense, I get some of the changes WD introduced. Still, I generally do not do it, no matter how boring the original script is, as I'm not a fan of overediting for the sake of overediting. Yeah, you need to localize certain things usually, but not rewrite them. A great example of a localization is the Yakuza series, they really nailed it there.
Anyway, it's just a shame that mostly SEGA's platforms suffered because of this (and some PCE games). I believe Supper did some work on his Un-Worked Designs project, but mostly it just had to do with balancing, not the translations themselves - at least thus far.

Lion
04-22-2018, 08:35 AM
If the more or less literal fan translations out there are anything to go by, then I find those old scripts to be so excruciatingly dull as to make games virtually unplayable. For instance, I remember trying some of the retranslations of Chrono Trigger and eventually just giving up and going back to the official one. I don't care if they restore something that was lost in translation if it reads like crap.

Gryson
04-22-2018, 11:35 AM
If the more or less literal fan translations out there are anything to go by, then I find those old scripts to be so excruciatingly dull as to make games virtually unplayable. For instance, I remember trying some of the retranslations of Chrono Trigger and eventually just giving up and going back to the official one. I don't care if they restore something that was lost in translation if it reads like crap.

That's probably just a case of poor translation. Most people don't want to read a "literal" translation (however you define it); they want to read a colloquial translation that flows like natural English (in other words, you shouldn't realize it's a translation).

Many original translations were done very well in terms of readability, but for whatever reason they omitted or significantly changed content. Sometimes this just seemed to be at the whim of the translator without any obvious reason, or due to technical limitations on character length or something, which is why people are interested in more accurate translations. But a good re-translator does need to preserve the quality of the dialogue, which can often be more difficult than doing the straightforward translation.

I was curious and looked up a Chrono Trigger re-translation:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/thumb/e/e1/Retranslationexample.png/600px-Retranslationexample.png

Left is original, right is new. I really prefer the original here. First, it drives me crazy that the new translation includes the Japanese honorific "sama," which if you don't speak Japanese probably means nothing to you. Second, this is a great example of doing an almost word-by-word translation that just doesn't have the flow of the original. To me, nothing new was added here, but the flow of the dialogue is more cumbersome.

But in the case of Shining Force, as I recall, significant details relating to the relationships of the characters were left out, which made some parts not make sense. In such cases, re-translating part of the script could really help out.

Lion
04-22-2018, 01:51 PM
That's probably just a case of poor translation. Most people don't want to read a "literal" translation (however you define it); they want to read a colloquial translation that flows like natural English (in other words, you shouldn't realize it's a translation).

Many original translations were done very well in terms of readability, but for whatever reason they omitted or significantly changed content. Sometimes this just seemed to be at the whim of the translator without any obvious reason, or due to technical limitations on character length or something, which is why people are interested in more accurate translations. But a good re-translator does need to preserve the quality of the dialogue, which can often be more difficult than doing the straightforward translation.

I was curious and looked up a Chrono Trigger re-translation:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/thumb/e/e1/Retranslationexample.png/600px-Retranslationexample.png

Left is original, right is new. I really prefer the original here. First, it drives me crazy that the new translation includes the Japanese honorific "sama," which if you don't speak Japanese probably means nothing to you. Second, this is a great example of doing an almost word-by-word translation that just doesn't have the flow of the original. To me, nothing new was added here, but the flow of the dialogue is more cumbersome.

But in the case of Shining Force, as I recall, significant details relating to the relationships of the characters were left out, which made some parts not make sense. In such cases, re-translating part of the script could really help out.

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Sadly, many sound anything but natural. It's not just that the Japanese scripts were dry or lacking humor, they also sound incredibly clunky and completely unnatural to a western audience. Or at least that was the case in the olden days of fan translations, more recent ones I've tried, like Ys IV on PCE or G.O.D on SNES are excellent.

I haven't tried the Shining Force fan translations yet (didn't even know there were any), but I imagine it would be easy to improve on the originals. Paraphrasing from memory:

"You killed my teacher! How could you be so mean?"

"Mean"? Really? That line makes it sound so trivial. Like he just stole his lunchbox or something.

I never actually got as far as that example you give from Chrono Trigger in the one I've tried, but I think it's the same fanslation. And there are many, many more examples of that kind earlier in the game, and ones that are a lot worse. Made it a chore to read the dialogue. I caught myself actively rewriting every single line in my mind to put up with it.

And I have to say, I much prefer the Western names for most/all of the characters, like the three gurus, Magus' three generals, and Magus' true name. Similarly, when I tried a Final Fantasy VI fanslation that 'restored' Terra's name to Tina, the first thing I did was undo that. I completely agree with Ted Woolsey's reasoning that while a western name like Tina might sound exotic to a Japanese audience, it absolutely doesn't to a western one. And if you want to capture that exotic quality then the name *has* to change.

goldenband
04-22-2018, 03:02 PM
I was curious and looked up a Chrono Trigger re-translation:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/thumb/e/e1/Retranslationexample.png/600px-Retranslationexample.png

Left is original, right is new. I really prefer the original here. First, it drives me crazy that the new translation includes the Japanese honorific "sama," which if you don't speak Japanese probably means nothing to you.

Oy. Whenever I see one of those translations that leaves in honorifics, I pretty much assume that (a) the person behind it doesn't actually speak the language with real fluency and (b) is infatuated with some utterly distorted/fetishized idea of Japanese-ness -- the "over there they do things right" complex -- and wants their translation to feel exotic and "other" even if it didn't feel remotely that way in the original language.

BonusKun
04-22-2018, 08:39 PM
But the main story and cast of characters is there, Villiage talk is all a bit meaningless.

You realize that's a 100% bullshit excuse right?

You interact with NPCs that are part of the game. Changing shit up into stupid drivel about present politics kills the mood of the game overall. The NPCs in that world are meant to pull you into the world to interact and understand where you are and who the people are that live there. WD's constant breaking the fucking 4th wall kills that.

Leynos
04-22-2018, 09:58 PM
Sorry...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptvSQY9Qa8

BonusKun
04-22-2018, 10:37 PM
Sorry...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptvSQY9Qa8

Stupid video & it still doesn't change the point that interaction is still part of an RPG. Of course it's much more fleshed out in this current day and age but back then getting an RPG with a good story helped you progress in the game. Dragon Force while a very good game had some of the stupidest comments from characters. One I recall was a Vampire Lord who joined up with your army. When having him build and fortify a castle he makes the comment "Playing with Legos really paid off!"

*facepalm.

Leynos
04-22-2018, 10:56 PM
Don't think I ever played a working design game tbh. I just know their games go for high prices. I never felt NPCs in JRPGs added much of anything. They may as well say nothing at all and I would not feel any different. Like a GTA NPC. Sounds like WD was trying to be cute and didn't work that well. Couldn't care less if they all said shit fuck cunt fart. NPC's dialogue never ads anything for me on thoseolder RPGs. I like what Octopath Traveler does with them. Making them useful for a change. Can help level up your character and such.

Team Andromeda
04-23-2018, 08:36 AM
You realize that's a 100% bullshit excuse right?

You interact with NPCs that are part of the game. Changing shit up into stupid drivel about present politics kills the mood of the game overall. The NPCs in that world are meant to pull you into the world to interact and understand where you are and who the people are that live there. WD's constant breaking the fucking 4th wall kills that.

No its a view and an opinion. In the Making of Lunar 1 and II. The games writers Studio Alex said they made a big effort with village speak as in most other RPGs, the talk was rather pointless and did nothing to the game and a lot of people skipped pass it. In most RPGs of that era, you didn't really need to talk the villagers and have small talk to process. WD did fantastic work on the Lunars series and I love their ports on the PS and Mega CD and to me their voice acting sometimes was better than in the Japanese originals esspeicaly on Quark for the 1st game or Zophar in the 2nd game.

BonusKun
04-23-2018, 09:52 AM
No its a view and an opinion.

No it's bullshit.

Team Andromeda
04-23-2018, 10:33 AM
No it's bullshit.

Well, even the writers of Lunar, weren't that impressed with other RPGs small village talk and looked to change that with Lunar.

Lion
04-23-2018, 10:53 AM
I've been playing through Zelda III again these past few days, and I'm struck by how virtually every single NPC you talk to says something that's a hint in some way, or otherwise fill some function that's relevant to what's going on. It's never just useless padding, and none of them seem without function. That's how it should be done.

Gryson
04-23-2018, 11:15 AM
I've been playing through Zelda III again these past few days, and I'm struck by how virtually every single NPC you talk to says something that's a hint in some way, or otherwise fill some function that's relevant to what's going on. It's never just useless padding, and none of them seem without function. That's how it should be done.

Reminds me of Phantasy Star. The villagers pretty much tell you where to go and what to do (although not always directly).

Team Andromeda
04-23-2018, 05:50 PM
Reminds me of Phantasy Star. The villagers pretty much tell you where to go and what to do (although not always directly).

Yet Phanstar Star saw plenty of text changes, and even characters changed for the western versions, I gather over the years thereís been various fan translations, SEGA did the same with Dark Savoiur too with the prisoner dialogue made a little jollier and also silly things like cigarettes changed to chocolates . And most people I knew were able to finish the Japanese version of Zelda III on the Snes with out understanding a line of the text.

Lion
04-23-2018, 09:30 PM
Yet Phanstar Star saw plenty of text changes, and even characters changed for the western versions, I gather over the years thereís been various fan translations, SEGA did the same with Dark Savoiur too with the prisoner dialogue made a little jollier and also silly things like cigarettes changed to chocolates .

The chocolate in Dark Savior was different though, as that was clearly censorship rather than somebody taking liberties with the script.

Jeckidy
04-23-2018, 11:03 PM
I want to mention that Tengai Makyou IV on Saturn is also an excellent game. From what I played of it, the voice cast and story and everything is very well done and certainly worthy of getting a fan translation.

cccmar
04-24-2018, 06:05 AM
I want to mention that Tengai Makyou IV on Saturn is also an excellent game. From what I played of it, the voice cast and story and everything is very well done and certainly worthy of getting a fan translation.

It's more likely that the (somewhat) censored PSP port will get a translation eventually, since Saturn is a pain to hack. I hope Tom gets there someday, since he really likes the TM series, and wants to do the PCE-CD ones first. I really enjoyed the Saturn version of this game, anyway - especially that it takes place in a completely bonkers version of the US, seen from the Japanese point of view. This means that lots of freedom talk, gun-toting, racism, and other popular stereotypes about the US are in there (and also, it's established very early on that Canada is a part of the ocean, and Alaska is an island, because of course).

As to the 4th wall breaking... I can understand that if the game itself does that frequently. It makes sense then to carry that over. Otherwise, it mostly depends on the nature of said game. I can't really imagine that being done all the time in, say, Phantasy Star 4 or older Final Fantasies, but in Earthbound it's nothing strange.

Lion
04-24-2018, 08:28 AM
I want to mention that Tengai Makyou IV on Saturn is also an excellent game. From what I played of it, the voice cast and story and everything is very well done and certainly worthy of getting a fan translation.

Yeah, this one would be at the top of my wishlist too, right up there with Legend of Xanadu I and II on PCE. The game looks like a blast. Marica is another I'm curious about.

Team Andromeda
04-25-2018, 02:51 AM
The chocolate in Dark Savior was different though, as that was clearly censorship rather than somebody taking liberties with the script.

I think both are equally as bad myself and goes against the original. Also, SEGA made changes to the script as they have done with Phantasy Star, Panzer Dragoon Saga and also Skies and yet no outrage. Can't help but think many jump on Lets Hate WD bandwagon.

Team Andromeda
04-25-2018, 03:03 AM
I want to mention that Tengai Makyou IV on Saturn is also an excellent game. From what I played of it, the voice cast and story and everything is very well done and certainly worthy of getting a fan translation.

Agreed, lovey game that again was overlooked by the baboons at SOA at the time. Got the nice Edtion that came with the guide

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/964/41688514711_49953b2aa3_k.jpg

bultje112
04-25-2018, 04:47 AM
I think both are equally as bad myself and goes against the original. Also, SEGA made changes to the script as they have done with Phantasy Star, Panzer Dragoon Saga and also Skies and yet no outrage. Can't help but think many jump on Lets Hate WD bandwagon.

because whatever was changed in games like saga or skies, it didn't turn into a poop-joke fest for 8 year olds in a serious storyline.

Leynos
04-25-2018, 05:54 AM
Agreed, lovey game that again was overlooked by the baboons at SOA at the time. Got the nice Edtion that came with the guide

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/964/41688514711_49953b2aa3_k.jpg
Love this game.

Team Andromeda
04-25-2018, 06:26 AM
because whatever was changed in games like saga or skies, it didn't turn into a poop-joke fest for 8 year olds in a serious storyline.

No changing part of the ending of the game isn't a BIG deal at all. I just think the WD hate bandwagon is just like it for Capcom, Call Of Duty and Sonic. People just reading whats said on the internet, going on and repeating it. Its the same deal for VF3 conversion of the DC, when it's all but a perfect version.
What issues did you have with Working Desgin conversions of Iron Storm and Dragon Force on the Saturn?

Black_Tiger
04-25-2018, 07:57 AM
Tengai Makyou The Apocalypse IV is one of the Saturn exclusives that I'd rather have than the entire Playstation or N64 libraries. I was disappointed at first by the cel animation style battles and the amount of cgi, because of how nice the actual pixelart is throughout the game. Early on it didn't feel very Far East Of Eden'ish, but that changed the further through the game I got.

It was the game that I got my Saturn region switched for, since the disc swap freezes if you use a Mega Key. Initially though, I went back to the store I bought it at for $180 and explained the problem, asking if I could use their Saturn to load my save and play through to the next save spot.

They were happy to oblige and I kept that save as long as I could abd uploaded it to the Netlink game save hub, so that others could make it through to the second disc.

I still have the English manual I made for it.

Team Andromeda
04-26-2018, 06:12 AM
Tengai Makyou The Apocalypse IV is one of the Saturn exclusives that I'd rather have than the entire Playstation or N64 libraries. .

Its a truly beautiful RPG and is like the Saturns answer to Suikoden II. Its just looks and sounds stunning and plays great too. Such a shame the babbons at SOA never brought it over and upset the only other corp that would have looked to have translated it.
Nice one Bernie!

Black_Tiger
04-26-2018, 11:37 AM
They couldn't keep the overtly racist stereotypes and it would have been too much work to change that kind of stuff.

bultje112
04-26-2018, 04:53 PM
No changing part of the ending of the game isn't a BIG deal at all. I just think the WD hate bandwagon is just like it for Capcom, Call Of Duty and Sonic. People just reading whats said on the internet, going on and repeating it. Its the same deal for VF3 conversion of the DC, when it's all but a perfect version.
What issues did you have with Working Desgin conversions of Iron Storm and Dragon Force on the Saturn?

iron storm and dragon force feature so little text and storyline they were hard to fuck up.

Team Andromeda
04-27-2018, 02:47 AM
iron storm and dragon force feature so little text and storyline they were hard to fuck up.

Take it you've never played Dragon Force and that is just a cop-out answer, for I don't know... because there's little on google to look upon the games. Just reading the translation notes or even playing the game will show you how much text is in the game. Just for the battles alone with over 170 characters, each have 20 contexts sensitive text alone In fact just for the character Wein there's 60,000 lines of text.
Dragon Force is a 2 disc monster full of text.

bultje112
04-27-2018, 11:55 AM
the game isn't story heavy. there is a lot of meaningless text or similar text by all the generals. I have dragon force and love it, but come on, you have to be an idiot to fuck that translation up since there is virtually no character development. it's all gameplay. the second game is a lot more story heavy though and recently an amazing translation has been released.

Team Andromeda
04-27-2018, 01:54 PM
the game isn't story heavy. there is a lot of meaningless text or similar text by all the generals. I have dragon force and love it, but come on, you have to be an idiot to fuck that translation up since there is virtually no character development. it's all gameplay. the second game is a lot more story heavy though and recently an amazing translation has been released.

I think you haven't played Dragon Force much: there is a heavy story, along with reams of text; It's a far more story-driven than Popful Mail that's for sure, which was nothing more than a Platform game with some RPG elements or even Shining Wisdom. So let's not try that cop-out answer of there isn't much text or story to mess up.
The sequel is just more of the same btw and only comes on one disc too. It's a shame that you, someone who's usually so well burst, informed and knowledgeable of Saturn and its games, reduces oneself to silly comments like there's not much text or a story to Dragons Force, just to join the hate bandwagon for WD.

Playing the game for just an hours shows off incredible amounts of text and a BIG story.

IrishNinja
04-27-2018, 08:02 PM
i get why people didn't like the WD translations, i didn't mind in the day & don't now...gameplaly changers were far, far worse in my book

Dragon Force is great, but let's not act like there's a lot of new ground being broken by the story: that's not what you were there for. i had a blast but was much more intrigued by politics/etc from stuff like Shining Force III (especially the later scenarios) and Suikoden.

Team Andromeda
04-28-2018, 05:36 AM
Dragon Force is great, but let's not act like there's a lot of new ground being broken by the story: that's not what you were there for. i had a blast but was much more intrigued by politics/etc from stuff like Shining Force III (especially the later scenarios) and Suikoden.

I'm not acting like Dragon Force breaks any new ground. There is a big story the game and loads of text, for WD to mess up. Its a far bigger game than the likes of Shining Wisdom and got more a story to it, than Popfulmail and tons of more text than both games too. Yet on here, I see both Shining Wisdom and Popful Mail brought up and nothing on the likes of Iron Storm or Dragon Force. But then there's not much information on what WD changed with those games and so no internet outcry. The story is quite deep in Dragon Force and. I think even most reviews at the time, praised the scale of not just the battles, but in incredible detail and story to the game

bultje112
04-28-2018, 11:46 AM
i get why people didn't like the WD translations, i didn't mind in the day & don't now...gameplaly changers were far, far worse in my book

Dragon Force is great, but let's not act like there's a lot of new ground being broken by the story: that's not what you were there for. i had a blast but was much more intrigued by politics/etc from stuff like Shining Force III (especially the later scenarios) and Suikoden.

oh god yes!!

I tried suikoden and got about 20 hours in but it just felt really boring. you recommend me to continue? it's a real drag so far.

Black_Tiger
04-28-2018, 12:43 PM
I bought a Playstation to play Suikoden when it came out, because I desperately wanted to play 32-bit RPGs and the game was hyped so much in magazines. The Playstation library hadn't interested me before that. I made the mistake of buying it new instead of just renting it. I was shocked by how boring and shallow and bland the game is. Even with the novelty of it being a next gen JRPG. If it had been released on a 16-bit console, it would have only been that much more disappointing. Beyond the Beyond looked cool and Shining like, but the battles were such a turn off that I never bothered playing far into it. I wound up selling my first Playstation after Wild Arms got old and nothing else interested me. I didn't get another one until FFVII came out.

I got a hold of a cdr copy of the Saturn version of Suikoden during the 90's and it was another disappointingly low effort port.

bultje112
04-29-2018, 03:53 AM
apparently suikoden 2 is a ton better. I only like the general recruiting and amassing a great army and castle, because it reminds me of strategy rpg's like shining force (3) but everything else is boring me. you literally do the same thing every time. go to a town, encounter a problem, go in a dungeon, beat everything a final war battle against a general. solved the problem and to to the next zone and do the exact same thing. and as far as I played the storyline was very bland and I didn't care for anything. the mere opposite to good games like shining force 3 or shining the holy ark, that I also played recently.

BonusKun
04-29-2018, 07:21 AM
I think you haven't played Dragon Force much: there is a heavy story, along with reams of text; It's a far more story-driven than Popful Mail that's for sure.

No he's right, Dragon Force's story isn't that heavy compared to earlier RPGs of the time which were way more text heavy. It's got a good story and great gameplay but it's not a ton of translation work compared to other RPGs at the time.

Team Andromeda
04-29-2018, 08:37 AM
No he's right, Dragon Force's story isn't that heavy compared to earlier RPGs of the time which were way more text heavy. It's got a good story and great gameplay but it's not a ton of translation work compared to other RPGs at the time.

You are just saying that. It has a much bigger and deeper story than Popful Mail and also Shining Wisdom and tons more text too than those games or even Vay, Yet no issues, Albert Oddesy is a text-heavy RPG too so what balls up did Working Designs do with that and Iron Storm and Dragon Force and anyone who's played Dragon Force would know its a massive translation job, the team even joked they put more text in that what the Sakura Wars Team were doing with their game. Dragon Force had more text than most JRPGs and was massive for a tactical RPG. 8 different storylines for the main characters, with each one having some 60,000 lines of text for that character. For battles, there are 20 contexts sensitive, messages per character and there are over 170 characters or a total of over 3,4000 battle only messages, add in pre-battle taunts, story text. Have you people even played Dragon Force? Its a monster of a text game, 2 CDs and where little of the CD is used on Voice acting, FMV and where all the music comes off the soundchip.

WD not only did a great job with the translation, they improved it over the Japanese version too.

BonusKun
04-29-2018, 09:14 AM
You are just saying that.

Yeah well, It's the truth. If we want to compare it to say Dragon Quest VII then you'd get the idea.

Dragon Force has a decent amount of text but compared to this..

https://twitter.com/juhopenttila/status/553919024518930432

Yeah sorry no. Dragon Force would maybe fill up about 2/10ths of that shelf.

Team Andromeda
04-29-2018, 06:35 PM
Yeah well, It's the truth. If we want to compare it to say Dragon Quest VII then you'd get the idea.

Dragon Force has a decent amount of text but compared to this..

https://twitter.com/juhopenttila/status/553919024518930432

Yeah sorry no. Dragon Force would maybe fill up about 2/10ths of that shelf.

Well if you feel the need to bring up a traditional JRPG to a tactical RPG, I mean fair enough, but That be like comparing Grandia to Dragon Force .. Iím not for that myself and look to compare it more to Final fantasy Tatics or Shining Force III. Dragon Force had a ton of text in it, itís quite overwhelming at 1st. WD did a great Job on the translation unless you can point to big changes they made to the text ?

BonusKun
04-29-2018, 07:36 PM
Well if you feel the need to bring up a traditional JRPG to a tactical RPG, I mean fair enough, but That be like comparing Grandia to Dragon Force .. Iím not for that myself and look to compare it more to Final fantasy Tatics or Shining Force III. Dragon Force had a ton of text in it, itís quite overwhelming at 1st. WD did a great Job on the translation unless you can point to big changes they made to the text ?

Well like it was said buddy, Dragon Force's text isn't huge compared to some of the games which were ported over here to the states. I'm not saying in any way shape or form that Dragon Force is a bad game, In fact to me it's a must own title for the Saturn. I just don't think Working Designs had that much work compared to the localizing team that handle Dragon Quest VII. That was a game with a huge amount of text I would have been scared to work on bringing it to the U.S. .

Jeckidy
04-30-2018, 12:36 AM
BTW Grandia (the first one) inspired a game by the Korean company Sonnori called Arcturus: The Curse and Loss of Divinity. The overworlds and battles are modeled after Grandia.

Team Andromeda
04-30-2018, 08:23 AM
Well like it was said buddy, Dragon Force's text isn't huge compared to some of the games which were ported over here to the states. I'm not saying in any way shape or form that Dragon Force is a bad game, In fact to me it's a must own title for the Saturn. I just don't think Working Designs had that much work compared to the localizing team that handle Dragon Quest VII. That was a game with a huge amount of text I would have been scared to work on bringing it to the U.S. .

Please, I never said that at all. I said the text file was rather big for a Tatical RPG of the time (1996) and the text file size is bigger than that of the likes of Popful Mail, the 1st Lunar, Shining Wisdom, Vay games which people on here have brought up about WD mess ups, there's more text in Dragon Force than in Shining Force III too. So there was plenty of text and text to the story for WD to have messed up, that was the point.
So what parts of Dragon Force text and the story did WD mess up compared to the Japanese original?.

BonusKun
04-30-2018, 02:55 PM
Please, I never said that at all.

Well I know you didn't but I did which is what we were talking about.

sull56ivan2010
04-30-2018, 05:03 PM
Anyone got an idea how much Dragon Force goes for just the disc only? I don't intend on getting rid of it, but it was inside the Saturn I bought at a yard sale a few years ago.

IrishNinja
04-30-2018, 08:19 PM
oh god yes!!

I tried suikoden and got about 20 hours in but it just felt really boring. you recommend me to continue? it's a real drag so far.

i mean, i adore it, but it's not a pretty game (none of the series really is), and it's a slow burn. do you recall what had gone down by the time you quit? cause there's some real emotional stuff at some points that i found compelling, and also dug the pokemon-like thing of building your castle by collecting all the other characters (the plot has a major change if you can get all 108). it's a fairly short game too.

2 is indeed tremendously better, and hits the ground running plot-wise, with what is to this date one of the nastiest villains ive seen in an RPG. ill say this though, there's more impact if you finished 1, as some characters return & that was a highlight for me.

bultje112
05-01-2018, 02:31 AM
i mean, i adore it, but it's not a pretty game (none of the series really is), and it's a slow burn. do you recall what had gone down by the time you quit? cause there's some real emotional stuff at some points that i found compelling, and also dug the pokemon-like thing of building your castle by collecting all the other characters (the plot has a major change if you can get all 108). it's a fairly short game too.

2 is indeed tremendously better, and hits the ground running plot-wise, with what is to this date one of the nastiest villains ive seen in an RPG. ill say this though, there's more impact if you finished 1, as some characters return & that was a highlight for me.

yes my father died and gave me his blessing to go on my own now. how far do you reckon I am?

Team Andromeda
05-01-2018, 04:09 AM
Well I know you didn't but I did which is what we were talking about.

Isn't that a way to get around we don't know. What parts of Dragon Force did WD mess up compared to the Japanese game?. How much text did they alter and insert their own take and jokes?

Daria
06-01-2018, 10:34 AM
oh god yes!!

I tried suikoden and got about 20 hours in but it just felt really boring. you recommend me to continue? it's a real drag so far.

Maybe my memory is off but at 20 hours you've got to be nearing the end of it. I think I beat it in like 15. But the first game is pretty short, especially compared to the second, which is a much improved game.

Armoured Priest
06-01-2018, 04:16 PM
Yeah, Suikoden is pretty short (I have a theory that game likely started life/development as a Super Famicom game and was transitioned to Playstation...in the same way Fable started life as a Dreamcast game and became an Xbox game).

I think my save game with all 108 stars isn't much past 25 hours.

bultje112
06-01-2018, 04:42 PM
how far do I have to go after my father is killed?

EmperorIng
06-01-2018, 09:54 PM
At that point there's only like two "generals" left? I'd say that point is well past half-way. Maybe 2/3rds?

Mega Drive Bowlsey
06-10-2018, 07:30 AM
Suikoden and Suikoden 2, are just pretty much perfect RPGs. Honestly, I spent so much time with these games as a teenager and finished them both so many times. The story, the characters, the music, the battles... Both games are sheer poetry to me. Alongside FFVII, Alundra and Breath of Fire III, the Suikoden games represent the cream of PS1 RPGs, no contest.

Recently bought myself a mint condition copy of Shining Force III for my Saturn (wasn't cheap!), and am loving every minute of it so far! Great story, great music, great battles... It's exactly how I imagined a Shining Force game would be like on the Saturn. I'm only sorry that it's taken me so long to get it, but better late than never! :D

Thief
06-10-2018, 07:33 AM
You're in for a good time, Mega.

bultje112
06-10-2018, 09:49 AM
Suikoden and Suikoden 2, are just pretty much perfect RPGs. Honestly, I spent so much time with these games as a teenager and finished them both so many times. The story, the characters, the music, the battles... Both games are sheer poetry to me. Alongside FFVII, Alundra and Breath of Fire III, the Suikoden games represent the cream of PS1 RPGs, no contest.

Recently bought myself a mint condition copy of Shining Force III for my Saturn (wasn't cheap!), and am loving every minute of it so far! Great story, great music, great battles... It's exactly how I imagined a Shining Force game would be like on the Saturn. I'm only sorry that it's taken me so long to get it, but better late than never! :D

wait till you play the other 2 scenarios. they are even better!

Thief
06-10-2018, 10:25 AM
You never forget your first...

Leynos
06-17-2018, 01:09 AM
Suikoden and Suikoden 2, are just pretty much perfect RPGs. Honestly, I spent so much time with these games as a teenager and finished them both so many times. The story, the characters, the music, the battles... Both games are sheer poetry to me. Alongside FFVII, Alundra and Breath of Fire III, the Suikoden games represent the cream of PS1 RPGs, no contest.

Recently bought myself a mint condition copy of Shining Force III for my Saturn (wasn't cheap!), and am loving every minute of it so far! Great story, great music, great battles... It's exactly how I imagined a Shining Force game would be like on the Saturn. I'm only sorry that it's taken me so long to get it, but better late than never! :D

I own the OST CD for Suikoden 2. Easily one of the best RPG soundtracks ever. I want Konami to revive this series more than Castlevania by a long shot.But outsource it.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
06-20-2018, 05:38 PM
I own the OST CD for Suikoden 2. Easily one of the best RPG soundtracks ever. I want Konami to revive this series more than Castlevania by a long shot.But outsource it.

Can't rep. It's not physically possible for me to agree with you more on this.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
07-01-2018, 03:53 AM
Ok so I'm slowly building up my (PAL) Saturn collection and my priority is RPG's for the system, but they're all quite pricey. I have my sights set on The Story of Thor 2 (Legend of Oasis I think it was called in other parts of the world) and Dragon Force. I've seen Dragon Force listed on ebay for around £150! Does that price sound about right or could I find it cheaper elsewhere?