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Vector
01-14-2018, 11:09 PM
Also see post 86.

So in late 1996 (for 1997 EGM buyers guide) the SNES got higher scores (basically all 9s and 8s) than Saturn with Virtua Cop, Fighting Vipers, Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Knights, Fighters Megamix, Panzer Dragoon 2, Quake, Guardian Heroes, Die Hard Arcade, (arcade perfect*) SF Alpha 2, Netlink internet and VCD movie capabilities etc. Riiight. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?25548-EGM-Buyers-Guide-System-Reviews-and-Game-Reviews-1989-to-2001

I would dare say a Saturn with Rhea or Phoebe sd and isos is "better" than a SNES its library. Sonic Jam for my 2d Sonic needs, Metal slug for 2d action, Shinobi Legions or Guardians for 2d beat em up, Tempest2000 for hours of fun, shmups, fighters, racers, movie watching...maybe that is my Sega bias talking. But think about it especially if Shenmue Saturn would have been released.

I came to this conclusion because of old EGM bias in 90s http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?25548-EGM-Buyers-Guide-System-Reviews-and-Game-Reviews-1989-to-2001&p=802097#post802097

What are your opinions on this guys? Do you think the Saturn always got a bad rap (until vg collectors spiked up ebay prices and also realized it is a great system 20 years later with great games) and maybe is even a more classic console than SNES or do you just think the SNES from 1993 until now is overrated or is the SNES just that great?

And if you guys don't know what this thread is about, since I made it I'll show you again.

1) "So in late 1996 (for 1997 EGM buyers guide) the SNES got higher scores (basically all 9s and 8s) than Saturn with Virtua Cop, Fighting Vipers, Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Knights, Fighters Megamix, Panzer Dragoon 2, Quake, Guardian Heroes, Die Hard Arcade, (arcade perfect*) SF Alpha 2, Netlink internet and VCD movie capabilities etc. Riiight. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...s-1989-to-2001

2) I would dare say a Saturn with Rhea or Phoebe sd and isos is "better" than a SNES its library. Sonic Jam for my 2d Sonic needs, Metal slug for 2d run action, Shinobi Legions or Guardians for 2d beat em up, Tempest2000 for hours of fun, shmups, fighters, racers, movie watching...maybe that is my Sega bias talking. But think about it especially if Shenmue Saturn would have been released.

I came to this conclusion because of old EGM bias in 90s http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...097#post802097

What are your opinions on this guys? Do you think the Saturn always got a bad rap (until vg collectors spiked up ebay prices and also realized it is a great system 20 years later with great games) and maybe is even a more classic console than SNES or do you just think the SNES from 1993 until now is overrated or is the SNES just that great? "

Team Andromeda
01-15-2018, 11:01 AM
The Saturn had a good rep in the UK with mags like Sega Mag and CVG, it was also going to get a bashing in the main media thanks to SEGA West rubbish handling of the 32bit battle and it being left for dead in the sales, very much like the Mega CD

Alianger
01-15-2018, 05:56 PM
Well, it depends on the genre. Saturn is better for shoot 'em up and fighting games, and the 3D games not represented on SNES obviously. Haven't found any SAT games that are quite as good as the best SNES games in these genres:
Action Adventure/RPG - Zelda 3, Secret of Evermore, Front Mission: Gun Hazard, Terranigma, SD2-3, Super Metroid (would rather play SotN on PS1)
Platformer - SMW 1-2, SMB3, DKC 1-2. Sonic Jam Barely counts to me since only S1 had improvements I care about and it's only on par with DKC, not the rest.

Not sure about beat 'em ups, run & guns, action platformers or puzzle games, nor RPGs since many of those are still untranslated on SAT.

It's kinda unfair to compare 3D games but Panzer Dragoon 2 is better than the first Star Fox to me, Bulk Slash is way better than Vortex, Sega Rally and Nights are better than any mode 7 or FX racing game and I guess the FPS games are better than on SNES too, though I'd rather play those on PC anyway.

Ultimately I would pick SNES if I had to choose but that might change for some other genres as I play more Saturn games.

j_factor
01-15-2018, 07:52 PM
It's one thing to like the SNES more overall, but in this context it's pretty lame. Notice that they didn't give the NES very high marks when it was late in its life, and I also highly doubt they were giving the PS1 a higher recommendation than the Gamecube in their 2003 guide.

Tower of Power
01-16-2018, 10:30 AM
I came to this conclusion because of old EGM bias in 90s http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?25548-EGM-Buyers-Guide-System-Reviews-and-Game-Reviews-1989-to-2001&p=802097#post802097

Oh yes, EGM was highly biased in favor of the SNES in those days. They liked to beat their drum and say they weren't biased, but they clearly were. Poor journalism all around, but apparently they spent most of their time dicking around and rushing to meet the deadline, so they got sloppy.

Black_Tiger
01-16-2018, 02:55 PM
EGM continued to call post-16-bit 2D visuals, even in PS2 games, "SNES graphics".

Baloo
01-16-2018, 07:53 PM
The Saturn has some solid games, but if we are going solely by the US library, it still lacks a really good 3D platformer, a Sonic sequel, and a true killer app that isn't an RPG. If you like arcade games, Japanese RPGs, and Import 2D fighters and shumps, the Saturn is for you.

I love the Saturn, it has some amazing games on it, but its a niche system. Its not as mainstream as the SNES.


Well, it depends on the genre. Saturn is better for shoot 'em up and fighting games, and the 3D games not represented on SNES obviously. Haven't found any SAT games that are quite as good as the best SNES games in these genres:
Action Adventure/RPG - Zelda 3, Secret of Evermore, Front Mission: Gun Hazard, Terranigma, SD2-3, Super Metroid (would rather play SotN on PS1)
Platformer - SMW 1-2, SMB3, DKC 1-2. Sonic Jam Barely counts to me since only S1 had improvements I care about and it's only on par with DKC, not the rest.

Not sure about beat 'em ups, run & guns, action platformers or puzzle games, nor RPGs since many of those are still untranslated on SAT.

It's kinda unfair to compare 3D games but Panzer Dragoon 2 is better than the first Star Fox to me, Bulk Slash is way better than Vortex, Sega Rally and Nights are better than any mode 7 or FX racing game and I guess the FPS games are better than on SNES too, though I'd rather play those on PC anyway.

Ultimately I would pick SNES if I had to choose but that might change for some other genres as I play more Saturn games.

Exactly my sentiments. The best of the SNES is far better than the best of the Saturn. Outside of Panzer Dragoon Saga, what's really a killer app on the Saturn? Panzer Dragoon II is pretty nice. NiGHTS is too esoteric.

Saturn ranks above the Playstation for me, but looking back it could have been much better.

Thief
01-16-2018, 08:38 PM
The three Shining Force games should beat SNES in Turn based SRPGs (Ogre Battle are on both minus English on Saturn, but both suck because it forces you to mindlessly grind to stand a chance, heard they fixed this for PSP. The fan translated Fire Emblem games I'm still having a hard time getting into, so can't be sure. Front Mission I tried twice to play, so not sure if any good). There's also Mysteria which I've never played. Wacheroder has an online text file translation, but game is average. The rest are Japanese without translations, so "meh."

StHA alone should beat the SNES in first person dungeon crawl JRPG. Of which there is really only one I can think of and it's Arcana (tried to play this one but the choppy scrolling was a massive turn off after buttery smooth StHA & SitD, since I like playing without maps and the choppy scrolling and turning is very disorientating).

And whatever kind of Strategy game is Dragon Force 1, might be missing on SNES or not in English.

redsox2013
01-16-2018, 10:55 PM
It's one thing to like the SNES more overall, but in this context it's pretty lame. Notice that they didn't give the NES very high marks when it was late in its life, and I also highly doubt they were giving the PS1 a higher recommendation than the Gamecube in their 2003 guide.

The NES was far surpassed by Genesis and SNES as the transition from 8 to 16 bit was dramatic. That's why the NES was obsolete late in it's life, and deserving of lower ratings. There was little on the NES that wasn't better on the 16 bit systems. However, the best 16 bit games still look, sound and play great, even by today's standards, while most early 3D 32-bit games have not aged as well as 16 bit games. I don't have a problem with 16 bit systems being rated higher than the first 32 bit systems at the time.

I would say that the Saturn never surpassed the Genesis to me. Genesis is my favorite all time system. The SNES is a tough one because of all the "cheater" chips Nintendo used. In 1997, was it common knowledge that many SNES games weren't running solely on the SNES processors but needed extra chips? I'm not talking about games like "Starfox" that promoted the Super FX chip, but the many games that use extra chips for various reasons. It's possible that the use of the extra chips gave a false impression that the SNES was more powerful than it really was, and that's why it was rated so high back then. We know better now, but it's reasonable to believe that people were fooled (for lack of a better word) at the time.

Of course, I don't blame Nintendo for using the extra chips. As far as consumers knew, they popped in their new SNES game and it looked and sounded amazing. Nintendo didn't care if anyone knew about the extra chips.

Alianger
01-16-2018, 11:54 PM
it still lacks a really good 3D platformer, a Sonic sequel, and a true killer app that isn't an RPG. If you like arcade games, Japanese RPGs, and Import 2D fighters and shumps, the Saturn is for you.

Saturn ranks above the Playstation for me, but looking back it could have been much better.

Yes, not to mention there was no Phantasy Star V, SoR 4, Comix Zone 2, Toejam & Earl 3, Monster World 5, Ecco 3 etc on it. There's no killer app in the way you'd expect from then like an MGS or OoT, but I don't know if that's as important to me personally. Some days I only care about action games, other days it's all about the ARPGs or the RTS games.

Interesting, SAT vs. PS1 is a tricky one and there's a lot I haven't even played yet. I think I'm too attached to the PS1 to make a sober judgement here, it was a really creative time to play games in but some of it doesn't hold up that well.

WarmSignal
01-17-2018, 02:04 AM
The sad thing is that it totally should, being a 32-bit machine by comparison. But no, the Saturn is not > SNES. Saturn just wasn't/isn't mind blowing to the average westerner. It doesn't compare to Genesis, and it doesn't compare to SNES, much less the consoles it should compare to - PlayStation or N64. That's not to say it's bad, or that I lacks worthwhile games. It has plenty, but they just fail to leave an impression save for a select few. Remember in the west what we got was a bunch of 3rd party games also available on PlayStation, a few watered down Sega arcade ports, and a handful of random new Sega IPs. No real Sonic. That's about all that needs to be said. No real sonic.

I think Saturn got the rap it deserved. I don't think EGM was bias from what I can see there. They rated Genesis pretty high most years that it was relevant. I don't know what kind of crack they were smoking when they still thought SNES was that badass in 97. If we're going strictly by year, then yes the Saturn was better. But all things considered, it was kind of a weak console that failed to innovate or do something especially interesting for the time. Hell, I didn't know the thing even existed.

Team Andromeda
01-17-2018, 03:18 AM
Yes, not to mention there was no Phantasy Star V, SoR 4, Comix Zone 2, Toejam & Earl 3, Monster World 5, Ecco 3 etc on it.

That's to overlook the problem of the low numbers SOR III, PS IV, ToeJam and Earl 2, Moster World IC and Ecco II sold in . ToeJam was only a niche game on the MD to make out that or the likes of Monster World V would help the Saturn is rather silly when SEGA West didn't bring even bring Monster World IV to the west and the game sold it limited numbers in Japan, never mind how much Comix Zone bombed at retail . The Saturn had a killer app and that was VF and VF II, sadly that only meant something to those in Japan. The simple fact is the Saturn didn't do well in the West and thats why people don't care much at all about it, in the same way next to noone cares about the Vita in the West or the XBox in Japan.



The Saturn has some solid games, but if we are going solely by the US library, it still lacks a really good 3D platformer, a Sonic sequel, and a true killer app that isn't an RPG. If you like arcade games, Japanese RPGs, and Import 2D fighters and shumps, the Saturn is for you.



I'm sorry that's just being a little igroant and the same sort of bashing the Neo Geo got: Which was said to only be about Vs Fighters or just like the casual view of how the Snes was the system to own for RPG's becasue the MD had none.
No the Neo Geo isn't just about VS fighters but also features some of the best sports games ever made, some of the best shooters ever made and with Metal Slug series a game that better than Contra III or Gunstar Heroes. No the Saturn isn't just about shooters or Vs fighters or even Japan RPG's (something which the N64 is totally lacking in). Some of the best Saturn games have nothing at all to with the Arcades or VS fighters or Japanese RPGs (not that hurt the PS). World Wide Soccer 97/98, Astal, Saturn Booberman, Enemy Zero, Exhumed, World Series Baseball, NHL 98, Gun Griffon, Deep Fear, Guardian Heroes, Tomb Raider, Buring Rangers, Panzer Dragoon Zwei.

When a system doesn't do well in the USA or games aren't brought over it gets widely ignored, more so since the imports have never been that big of a deal in the USA, we seen that with countless consoles and gaming systems. Hell even Jackie Chan knew what that was like for his films lol

Vector
01-17-2018, 04:11 AM
I love these comments, many perspectives. I personally had a Saturn, Genesis, SNES etc in my room for years...and spent more time playing Genesis and Saturn more than snes. Then again, im not a huge rpg fan but more of a fighting, action, sports fan. I play the turboduo more than snes actually.

Team Andromeda
01-17-2018, 04:28 AM
. I play the turboduo more than snes actually.


Another system that was meant to be only good for shooters *rolls eyes* Much like the Saturn it was totally overlooked in the West and many of its better games were never brought over.

Greg2600
01-17-2018, 10:51 AM
SNES literally had every game or series out there other than SEGA-licensees. At the time it came out, if you wanted an honest opinion, I'll give you one. Most people didn't read or care about what game magazines wrote, it was all word of mouth back then. The Saturn was simply too expensive, and lacked major titles we were familiar with, at launch. And for quite some time later. Most of my contemporaries simply gamed on 16-bit for a few more years, largely to avoid spending $100's on new hardware. Especially after SEGA had more or less crashed on the CD and 32X add-on's. Very little faith in them. There was a quickly growing PC market at the time, spurred on by AOL, Compuserve, and early Netscape browsing the WWW. By the time we could think about buying the Saturn, the Playstation was out AND cheaper! Plus Sony was THE name in electronics at the time, with a 3rd party library that matched the Saturn, and within a year or so, far better 1st party games. By 1997, with the N64 on it's way, the Saturn had no shot.

Alianger
01-17-2018, 02:28 PM
That's to overlook the problem of the low numbers SOR III, PS IV, ToeJam and Earl 2, Moster World IC and Ecco II sold in . ToeJam was only a niche game on the MD to make out that or the likes of Monster World V would help the Saturn is rather silly when SEGA West didn't bring even bring Monster World IV to the west and the game sold it limited numbers in Japan, never mind how much Comix Zone bombed at retail . The Saturn had a killer app and that was VF and VF II, sadly that only meant something to those in Japan. The simple fact is the Saturn didn't do well in the West and thats why people don't care much at all about it, in the same way next to noone cares about the Vita in the West or the XBox in Japan.


Ok, sounds like you have the numbers on these things? They weren't on par with Sonic of course but if you were into the MD you probably knew about most of these franchises and it was less of a gamble than making a bunch of new IPs instead like they ended up doing. Of course some of the later ones could've had a version or spinoff on Saturn instead, for example a rhythm-focused T&E game on Saturn (they were already moving in that direction with 2) or a remake of Comix Zone. Instead Sega were being stupid and didn't really market some of their best games around at the time (I remember that story about Gunstar Heroes almost not being released). Then, years later they did revisit Phantasy Star, Ecco and T&E on DC/XB and they weren't low budget releases so I don't think you're making much sense here.

A fighting game also wasn't quite a killer app from the mid 90s onward, as people were expecting story heavy experiences, character building and exploration besides just action.

It didn't!? Thanks captain obvious.

Team Andromeda
01-17-2018, 03:52 PM
Ok, sounds like you have the numbers on these things? They weren't on par with Sonic of course but if you were into the MD you probably knew about most of these franchises and it was less of a gamble than making a bunch of new IPs instead like they ended up doing. Of course some of the later ones could've had a version or spinoff on Saturn instead, for example a rhythm-focused T&E game on Saturn (they were already moving in that direction with 2) or a remake of Comix Zone. Instead Sega were being stupid and didn't really market some of their best games around at the time (I remember that story about Gunstar Heroes almost not being released). Then, years later they did revisit Phantasy Star, Ecco and T&E on DC/XB and they weren't low budget releases so I don't think you're making much sense here.

A fighting game also wasn't quite a killer app from the mid 90s onward, as people were expecting story heavy experiences, character building and exploration besides just action.

It didn't!? Thanks captain obvious.

No, I just think you are doing a wind up tbh and don't really why I bother. How many corps were able to make a 3D fighting game in 1993 never mind how well Comix Zone, TJ&E, Gunstar Heroes, Ecco II, PS IV sold

Alianger
01-17-2018, 04:00 PM
Yeah if you're not going to respond to anything and just repeat yourself then there really is no point, is there. What does VF1 being made in 1993 have to do with any of this?

Tower of Power
01-17-2018, 04:19 PM
Yeah if you're not going to respond to anything and just repeat yourself then there really is no point, is there. What does VF1 being made in 1993 have to do with any of this?

This is literally all that Team Andromeda ever does.

WarmSignal
01-17-2018, 04:35 PM
Another system that was meant to be only good for shooters *rolls eyes* Much like the Saturn it was totally overlooked in the West and many of its better games were never brought over.


I gotta disagree with that. SEGA didn't cater to the western market with Saturn, from conception of the machine and most the way through it's lifespan. Appealing to the western market trends was not a priority for them, just an afterthought. Realizing after the fact, that their machine wasn't going to be competitive with Sony's in that market and trying to launch early, etc. Bringing over games that hyped a very different Japanese market would never save it here. It might satisfy a marginal segment of gamers, but it's not going to come close to saving the console.

Most people cite shoot-em-ups, 2D fighters, and other role playing games that look like prettier versions of 16-bit games as the killer apps for Saturn in Japan. That wouldn't cut it here in 1995 - 2000. You can dislike the kind of games that were popular in the west at that time, but that stuff is what the Saturn needed to be successful globally. It needed more games like Nights, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Burning Rangers, etc, it needed Sonic Xtreme ready at or near launch, and it needed to be easier for devs to make more games of that ilk.

Overhead shoot-em-ups were never blockbusters in the west post-1995, people would rather play things like Panzer Dragoon, Colony Wars, or Star Fox 64, fighters were becoming 3D and 360 degree experiences like Tekken, DOA and Virtua Fighter, and after FF7 set the new standard how could any Saturn RPG compare, other than PDS? The "dated" style of games still popular in the East would not cut it in the mainstream which is what the Saturn needed - mainstream appeal. There may be a lot of SEGA fans here who in retrospect would much rather play a plethora of 2D sprite based games on their Saturn than anything the PlayStation or N64 ever offered, but that is not a good example of how the Saturn was overlooked in it's heyday. Nights is a much better example of a Saturn game that was overlooked by many, because of no marketing.

Bottino
01-17-2018, 04:57 PM
Such a silly debate.

xelement5x
01-17-2018, 06:58 PM
Most people cite shoot-em-ups, 2D fighters, and other role playing games that look like prettier versions of 16-bit games as the killer apps for Saturn in Japan. That wouldn't cut it here in 1995 - 2000. You can dislike the kind of games that were popular in the west at that time, but that stuff is what the Saturn needed to be successful globally. It needed more games like Nights, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Burning Rangers, etc, it needed Sonic Xtreme ready at or near launch, and it needed to be easier for devs to make more games of that ilk.


This really is the truth of the matter. I enjoyed my Saturn when it was relevant at the time, but I also had a PSX which had a lot more games for me to play, and ones that were exclusive could make or break my purchase decisions. Saturn did okay with EA titles and keeping some people onboard, but the PSX was a tough cookie to beat.

Alianger
01-17-2018, 07:36 PM
Not sure who's arguing with who anymore, but I bet that if they had pushed "Saturn Booberman" and Tokimeki Memorial more aggressively, Sega would've won in the end.

j_factor
01-17-2018, 10:34 PM
This thread was about the "1997" (from the end of '96) EGM buyer's guide, and specifically how they rated the SNES higher than the Saturn at that time. The Saturn's launch has nothing to do with that. The Saturn's shortcomings specifically compared to the Playstation have nothing to do with that either. That the Saturn didn't sell well is pretty irrelevant because, for one, this thing was published during the very brief time that the Saturn was actually selling decently in North America, and second, a critic of any medium or product isn't supposed to take things like sales and marketing into account anyway.

WarmSignal
01-17-2018, 11:04 PM
This thread was about the "1997" (from the end of '96) EGM buyer's guide, and specifically how they rated the SNES higher than the Saturn at that time. The Saturn's launch has nothing to do with that. The Saturn's shortcomings specifically compared to the Playstation have nothing to do with that either. That the Saturn didn't sell well is pretty irrelevant because, for one, this thing was published during the very brief time that the Saturn was actually selling decently in North America, and second, a critic of any medium or product isn't supposed to take things like sales and marketing into account anyway.

I feel like any discussion related to how Saturn was fairing is related to it's entire commercial failure. It's kind of a complex issue. Why EGM thought it was worse than SNES in '97 is just a puzzle piece to a larger question. I don't think the answer is that EGM was bias in favor of Nintendo, they just weren't impressed with the Saturn. Also, without taking into account all of SEGA's shortcomings including marketing you don't get a clear picture of why people were disinterested.

Team Andromeda
01-18-2018, 05:10 AM
I gotta disagree with that. SEGA didn't cater to the western market with Saturn, from conception of the machine and most the way through it's lifespan. Appealing to the western market trends was not a priority for them, just an afterthought. Realizing after the fact, that their machine wasn't going to be competitive with Sony's in that market and trying to launch early, etc. Bringing over games that hyped a very different Japanese market would never save it here. It might satisfy a marginal segment of gamers, but it's not going to come close to saving the console.
.

That was SEGA America balls up, they went all for the 32X and cocked it all up, they thought the 32X would clear up and they wouldn't need or have to push the Saturn till 3 years down the line .

SEGA Japan hardly made any games just for the West in mind, even with the MD, all their games were made by Japanese teams with the MD market in mind, it just so happened that many of its games also worked the world over. Also I really don't know what Saturn games you were playing, but the likes of Panzer Dragoon, Virtual Fighter, Virtual Cop, Sega Rally were hardly prettier versions of previous MD games or overhead shooters, same goes for Clockwork Knight 1 and II. All games are made to be the next big thing and the next killer app, somtimes games work out and somtimes they don't. In fact SEGA Japan hardly made many 2D games, much less any overhead shooters for the Saturn.
To me SEGA Japan should have made far more use of the Saturn 2D, we should have had a 2D SOR IV with huge sprites and a 4 player mode and SEGA should have ported the likes of Revenge of Death Adder, Super Hang-on, Spiderman the Arcade game, Arabian Fight , Aliens 3 the Gungame to the Saturn and also make another Mickey Mouse game with lush amazing 2D visuals for the system.


Btw, SEGA Japan made a Colony Wars type shooter, but SEGA Amercia didn't bother to bring Stellar Assault over to the west and that game joins a huge list of amazing Saturn games that were Japan only.

j_factor
01-18-2018, 06:08 AM
I feel like any discussion related to how Saturn was fairing is related to it's entire commercial failure. It's kind of a complex issue. Why EGM thought it was worse than SNES in '97 is just a puzzle piece to a larger question. I don't think the answer is that EGM was bias in favor of Nintendo, they just weren't impressed with the Saturn. Also, without taking into account all of SEGA's shortcomings including marketing you don't get a clear picture of why people were disinterested.

I don't expect EGM or any other mainstream outlet to be putting the Saturn on a pedestal, or rating it equally with the Playstation. But, I mean, even when they were kinda ragging on the Turbografx, they still rated it higher than the NES. And I think it's interesting that they were critical of the Game Boy and gave the Game Gear higher marks multiple times, which seems to refute both the notion that they had blind Nintendo loyalty and the notion that they were basing themselves on sales charts.

So, it's really just puzzling tbh. I'm trying to look back on that time and I just don't see where they're coming from. The Saturn was having a productive release schedule at that time. Sure it didn't have anything with the true mass appeal of Crash Bandicoot or Mario 64. But it had plenty of games, and plenty of good ones. While a game like Dragon Force (or PD Zwei, Virtual On, NiGHTS, Guardian Heroes, the list goes on) never captured the spotlight, their quality was recognized by those who bothered to play them, including EGM itself. Even games like Bug Too, Baku Baku, and Three Dirty Dwarves got decent scores. Plus the games it shared with the Playstation, like Tomb Raider, Soviet Strike, Skeleton Warriors, etc. Now, what did the SNES have? Kirby Super Star and Mario RPG are standout titles, and I know EGM absolutely gobbled up Tetris Attack. There's DKC3 and Lufia II, and then... not much else to talk about really. A few great games, but a far cry from the breadth of what the Saturn was offering.

Gryson
01-18-2018, 08:51 AM
In case you missed it in the other thread, here's what the OP is referring to (I've ordered the list highest first and given total scores):


1997 EGM Buyer's Guide (released at end of 1996)
(System Scores - Dan Hsu / Crispin Boyer / Shawn Smith / Sushi-X)
Nintendo 64 - 7.5 / 10 / 9.5 / 9.0 (36)
Playstation - 8.0 / 9.0 / 8.0 / 8.5 (33.5)
Super Nintendo - 9.0 / 8.0 / 8.0 / 7.5 (32.5)
Sega Saturn - 7.5 / 7.0 / 6.5 / 7.0 (28)
Game Boy Pocket - 4.5 / 7.5 / 8.0 / 7.0 (27)
Sega Nomad - 7.5 / 6.0 / 5.5 / 7.5 (26.5)
Game Gear - 5.5 / 4.0 / 5.0 / 8.5 (23)
Neo-Geo CD - 4.5 - 4.0 - 5.5 - 5.0 (19)
Genesis - 4.5 / 4.0 / 4.5 / 4.0 (17)
3DO - 3.5 / 3.5 / 3.0 / 3.5 (13.5)
Virtual Boy - 3.0 / 2.0 / 2.5 / 2.0 (9.5)


I don't really find this surprising, considering they weren't simply rating how impressive a console and its games were, but rather how good of a purchase it was. The SNES was selling for MSRP of $89.99 at the time and had some huge hits still coming out. The Saturn was looking a bit bleak in terms of sales, and it also had fewer upcoming games than the PlayStation (I just browsed through the Dec. 1996 EGM, and previews seem to be dominated by PlayStation).

Here are the May 1996 NDP sales figures:


1 SNES Super Mario RPG Nintendo 88,000 / NEW
2 PSX Resident Evil Capcom 36,000 / 141,000
3 SNES Donkey Kong Country 2 Nintendo 35,000 / 826,000
4 PSX Battle Arena Toshinden 2 SCE 26,000 / NEW
5 PSX Hardball 5 Infogrames 17,000 / NEW
6 PSX Need For Speed Electronic Arts 16,000 / 67,000
7 GEN NHL 96 Electronic Arts 16,000 / 451,000
8 PSX NBA Shootout SCEA 14,000 / 50,000
9 GEN NBA LIVE '96 Electronic Arts 13,000 / 496,000
10 GEN Ms. Pac-Man Tengen 13,000 / unknown
11 PSX NBA LIVE '96 Electronic Arts 13,000 / 64,000
12 SNES Yoshi's Island Nintendo 12,000 / 547,000
13 GEN Taz: Escape From Mars SEGA 11,000 / 187,000
14 GEN X-MEN 2 Capcom 10,000 / 247,000
15 SNES NBA LIVE '96 Electronic Arts 9,900 / 182,000
16 GEN Vectorman SEGA 9,700 / 354,000
17 GEN Toy Story Capcom 9,600 / 422,000
18 GEN Mortal Kombat 3 Midway 9,200 / 814,000
19 SNES Toy Story Capcom 9,100 / 150,000
20 PSX NFL GameDay SCEA 8,800 / 220,000
21 GEN Combat Cars Accolade 8,300 / 26,000
22 PSX Bottom of The 9NTH Konami 8,300 / 28,000
23 PSX Tekken Namco 8,300 / 189,000
24 GEN MM Power Rangers: The Movie SEGA 8,200 / 197,000
25 PSX Twisted Metal SCEA 7,900 / 142,000

PlayStation ($299>$199) 77,000 / 810,000
Super NES ($129) 50,000 / unknown
Sega Genesis ($109) 48,000 / unknown
Sega Saturn ($259>$199) 21,000 / 316,000

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/new-monthly-gaf-feature-top25-a-decade-ago-may-1996.105999/

A year after the Saturn's release, it didn't have a single game making the monthly top 25 sales. The SNES, on the other hand, occupied the first and third slots. (An interesting aside is how well Genesis games were still selling.)

So maybe EGM was biased, but I don't think they were unjustified in rating the SNES as a better purchase for 1997 than the Saturn. And they did rate the PlayStation as higher than the SNES.

sull56ivan2010
01-18-2018, 09:09 AM
I don't expect EGM or any other mainstream outlet to be putting the Saturn on a pedestal, or rating it equally with the Playstation. But, I mean, even when they were kinda ragging on the Turbografx, they still rated it higher than the NES. And I think it's interesting that they were critical of the Game Boy and gave the Game Gear higher marks multiple times, which seems to refute both the notion that they had blind Nintendo loyalty and the notion that they were basing themselves on sales charts.

So, it's really just puzzling tbh. I'm trying to look back on that time and I just don't see where they're coming from. The Saturn was having a productive release schedule at that time. Sure it didn't have anything with the true mass appeal of Crash Bandicoot or Mario 64. But it had plenty of games, and plenty of good ones. While a game like Dragon Force (or PD Zwei, Virtual On, NiGHTS, Guardian Heroes, the list goes on) never captured the spotlight, their quality was recognized by those who bothered to play them, including EGM itself. Even games like Bug Too, Baku Baku, and Three Dirty Dwarves got decent scores. Plus the games it shared with the Playstation, like Tomb Raider, Soviet Strike, Skeleton Warriors, etc. Now, what did the SNES have? Kirby Super Star and Mario RPG are standout titles, and I know EGM absolutely gobbled up Tetris Attack. There's DKC3 and Lufia II, and then... not much else to talk about really. A few great games, but a far cry from the breadth of what the Saturn was offering.

Maybe because people were more impressed with NES games and thought the Game Boy would bog down the 8-bit experience. Maybe the idea of a portable colored machine really kept EGM giving Game Gear higher scores during the 90s. Turbografx might have had titles they wanted compared to NES, but it must have disappointed them quite a bit that titles weren't coming and the droughts throughout its run outside of Japan. It's all what ifs with these EGM guys.

Looking at the SNES, it still had games from years past that were still on shelves. You could still find Zelda, Star Wars, and a handful of other titles along with the newer titles that were being released. Add in the Player's Choice combined with the cheap price compared to the newer systems. it still had a lot to offer.

DrunkenHigh
01-18-2018, 12:46 PM
EGM was no different than any other "reviewers". Now or then. They were paid or got exclusives from publishers to say nice things and give high marks. The Nintendo bias makes no sense. They had a ton of writers and editors over the years.

Sonic and Knuckles and Super Monaco GP got some perfect 10s. Sonic 1 got a better review than Super Mario World. Streets of Rage over Final Fight. If anything, they had a Sega bias.

The Super NES kept getting great games deep in it's life. While Sega was busy being greedy and confused with itself. The Nintendo machine had a better library. Plain and simple. To say the SNES library is inferior to the Saturn's is just being ridiculous and holding on to some weird bias 20+ years later. It's silly.

Thief
01-18-2018, 01:05 PM
EGM was no different than any other "reviewers". Now or then. They were paid or got exclusives from publishers to say nice things and give high marks. The Nintendo bias makes no sense. They had a ton of writers and editors over the years.

Sonic and Knuckles and Super Monaco GP got some perfect 10s. Sonic 1 got a better review than Super Mario World. Streets of Rage over Final Fight. If anything, they had a Sega bias.

The Super NES kept getting great games deep in it's life. While Sega was busy being greedy and confused with itself. The Nintendo machine had a better library. Plain and simple. To say the SNES library is inferior to the Saturn's is just being ridiculous and holding on to some weird bias 20+ years later. It's silly.

If memory serves me right, that EGM Buyers Guide justified the SNES getting higher scores then Saturn due to amount of games in SNES library by that point and I think price point. But it was still total nonsense to me back then, and you know why? We gamers back then were obsessed with the next leap in gaming that came with Saturn/PS1/N64. So much so that going back to SNES/Genesis was almost impossible. Just like previously going from SNES/Genesis back to NES was almost impossible.

Also, all those Genesis games with higher scores then SNES was during a time when the journalist bias favored Genesis. However that didn't last.

DrunkenHigh
01-18-2018, 01:22 PM
They weren't even the same journalists. Steve, Ed, and whoever decided to roleplay as Sushi-X are going to look at things differently than Shoe, Crispin, and whoever decided to roleplay as Sushi-X.

I was knee deep in Playstation. Still kept the SNES hooked up and rented the new games when they came out. Compare that to the Saturn. With it's tiny ass section at the Blockbuster. It was some sad writing on the wall.

Greg2600
01-18-2018, 01:25 PM
I don't know about being obsessed. I would still agree with EGM that price and library meant a lot, far more to most kids back then. We continued to play NES well throughout the 90's because the games had fantastic replay value, ditto SNES and GENESIS. Funcoland built a chain empire based on that. I was in high school when Saturn/Playstation/N64 debuted, going into college. The Playstation was quickly the rage. I had a HS art teacher who was addicted to his son's Twisted Metal! Like I said, Saturn had a woeful library. It only picked up steam when you could start importing JPN games, which was certainly no valid sales pitch!

Team Andromeda
01-18-2018, 01:39 PM
l! Like I said, Saturn had a woeful library. It only picked up steam when you could start importing JPN games, which was certainly no valid sales pitch!

I don't want to get in to a pointless war or enless lists, but the best Saturn games were brought over in the early years. Also, all systems have issues for the 1st year for software and the price of the Hardware, until developers get used to the system and really start to make it sing. The only real exectiono to the rule, was the SNES and XBox where some of their best games came very early in

Gryson
01-18-2018, 02:02 PM
Also, the EGM Buyer's Guide was not comparing how good each system was, it was simply trying to determine if a console was worth buying or not. By rating the SNES higher than the Saturn in 1997, they were not at all saying that the SNES was a better console in terms of X.

The reviewer comments for 1997 weren't posted, but here are the 1998 comments (same reviewers):

http://i.cubeupload.com/Xp3eZc.jpg

I think those are generally fair, unbiased comments. They're actually very positive about the Saturn!

"I love the Saturn."

"I have a Saturn at home so the last thing I want to see is it die..."

"I've been an avid Saturn supporter since it was released."

They praise the system, but simply can't recommend it when it practically has no games coming out.

The SNES, on the other hand, had a huge library, a low price point, and smash hit games still coming out, so it got higher points. I don't really see any bias.

Black_Tiger
01-18-2018, 02:44 PM
Same reasons that the NES never stopped being a great buy, but as it's been pointed out, their SNES bias was obvious.

It was even less of a value than NES, since SNES games continued to be all Nintendo had to offer console gamers, yet the games were much more expensive than 32-bit CD games and the SNES doesn't play music CDs either.

Gryson
01-18-2018, 02:46 PM
Same reasons that the NES never stopped being a great buy, but as it's been pointed out, their SNES bias was obvious.

It was even less of a value than NES, since SNES games continued to be all Nintendo had to offer console gamers, yet the games were much more expensive than 32-bit CD games and the SNES doesn't play music CDs either.

They rated the PlayStation higher than the SNES...

Alianger
01-18-2018, 05:35 PM
That NPD list on the previous page might be incomplete since VF2 (january 1996) sold 500k copies in the US, and Sega Rally (late 1995) 1.2 million in total.

xelement5x
01-18-2018, 06:14 PM
The Super NES kept getting great games deep in it's life. While Sega was busy being greedy and confused with itself. The Nintendo machine had a better library. Plain and simple. To say the SNES library is inferior to the Saturn's is just being ridiculous and holding on to some weird bias 20+ years later. It's silly.

Yes, the fact that Sega just kind of abandoned the Genesis with new releases when it was already in a ton of homes and had people playing it is kind of an atrocity. I feel like if they'd kept publishing games later into the 90s like the SNES did, they would have had much better financial footing in the long term, and been able to provide the company much better footing.

Here is my awesome analogy as well: Diarrhea (32X, maybe SegaCD) alone will not kill you, but if you don't continue to have water and electrolytes (money and guaranteed sales from Genesis software) you can still die from it.

DrunkenHigh
01-18-2018, 06:43 PM
Yes, the fact that Sega just kind of abandoned the Genesis with new releases when it was already in a ton of homes and had people playing it is kind of an atrocity. I feel like if they'd kept publishing games later into the 90s like the SNES did, they would have had much better financial footing in the long term, and been able to provide the company much better footing.

Here is my awesome analogy as well: Diarrhea (32X, maybe SegaCD) alone will not kill you, but if you don't continue to have water and electrolytes (money and guaranteed sales from Genesis software) you can still die from it.

Especially when you look at technical achievements like Batman and Robin and the Vectorman games. Madden and NBA Live were still getting pumped out. X-Perts was the answer? Their best selling system was being treated like an afterthought. So weird.

Team Andromeda
01-18-2018, 06:46 PM
Yes, the fact that Sega just kind of abandoned the Genesis with new releases when it was already in a ton of homes and had people playing it is kind of an atrocity. I feel like if they'd kept publishing games later into the 90s like the SNES did, they would have had much better financial footing in the long term, and been able to provide the company much better footing.



I really tire of people saying this and people forgetting that the Mega Drive came out in 1990 in the USA and The Snes nearly 2 years latter, so the SNES was always going to have 2 years more support than the MD, thatís to also overlook the N64 hardware was delayed for a year too. SEGA still supported the MD with In-house games after the Saturn and 32X shipped, unlike Nintendo dropped the SNES like a stone when the N64 hit.

Also one needs to loook at the poor sales of late MD software like Comix Zone, Vector Man II, Ristsar to see most MD fans were getting bored of their system.

Gryson
01-18-2018, 07:03 PM
That NPD list on the previous page might be incomplete since VF2 (january 1996) sold 500k copies in the US, and Sega Rally (late 1995) 1.2 million in total.

That 500k sold for VF2 is most likely not accurate, or at least not what it seems. Here's the original source: https://segaretro.org/Press_release:_1997-01-13:_Sega_tops_holiday,_yearly_sales_projections


Sega's "three pack" promotion helped boost sales in December alone to more than 500,000 Sega Saturn units, up 300 percent over November sales. Under the promotion, consumers received three free arcade translation games ("Virtua Fighter 2," "Daytona USA" and "Virtua Cop") with the purchase of a Sega Saturn.

So in Dec 1996, Sega gave out a ton of free copies of VF2. That wouldn't show up on the NPD list.

Also, a large percent of Sega Rally's sales were probably from Japan, where Sega's arcade ports were selling really well.

Of course, take the NPD list with a grain of salt.

Alianger
01-18-2018, 08:45 PM
Ah I see, well it is just one month shown after all and with a seemingly small user base compared to the final 1.6 million.

Who knows, it just makes sense to me that it would've been on the list (or at least the JP list in that thread) around the time when it consistently ranks in the top 5 in polls and various lists online.

Vector
01-19-2018, 12:40 AM
And they did rate the PlayStation as higher than the SNES.

They rated the PlayStation higher than the SNES...

Just barely, thankfully Sushi X actually knew better because up to that point all 3 reviewers had Playstation and SNES tied :o even though PS was in its prime selling like hot cakes off shelves (during and after 1995) it was thee console to have even Sega fans bought one and SNES was or was becoming a budget system (with a jr model out or coming out). So EGM gave a 32 bit success 1 point higher than old 16 bit SNES even though in 1996 Saturn (3 points lower than SNES) had better games than SNES like Tempest2000 or the 3 in 1 cd pack in game with console and all the other Saturn games I listed in previous post. "Tomb Raider, Virtua Cop, Fighting Vipers, Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Knights, Fighters Megamix, Panzer Dragoon 2, Quake, Guardian Heroes, Die Hard Arcade, X-Men vs SF, the (arcade perfect*) SF Alpha 2 way better than SNES version, Netlink internet and VCD movie capabilities etc. Riiight."

I'm sorry but in 1996 Saturn was a better buy than SNES imo. 6 months later you could buy Sonic Jam, Soul Edge, Last Bronx, shooters etc. Games like Silvergun and or PD Saga were out in 1998 when nothing was out for SNES Jr.
The library is vast and more fun with cd quality music, heck I remember watching a rare TransformersTM1986 movie on 1 vcd that looked near DVD quality on Saturn. (When I compared them years later). https://ibb.co/eEarYb

I know Buyers Guides weren't comparing systems per say, just rating them each. But when Genesis got higher scores than SNES last time (1991/1992), "SNES" appeared in half of the Genesis ratings/articles saying Genesis was a better buy than SNES and half of the SNES ratings/articles mentioning it can't compare to "Genesis". Isn't that comparing?

https://ibb.co/ihA8Db

"Genesis is the best, and just wait until next year it'll be better." Ummm.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2q0lous.jpg

"Ok Niniendo are adding upgrade chips to games so the console is better than Genesis". "SNES CD coming out in 1994, SNES is thee system of 90's". (Sega-CD already out) :daze:

And I still had/have more fun with Saturn Library than SNES library. That 3 in 1 pack-in kept me playing for hours everyday compared to playing Mario, Zelda, Metriod, DK2 or 3 or SF Aplha2 or whatever was on SNES. A local shop imported Saturn Jap games in 1996/1997 and all I played was Fighting Megamix trying to unlock things. I don't think I have a weird bias, I just like action games more than rpgs. And Saturn was almost all action then. Or I'd rather play Tempest2000 for hours rather than Kirby ha or anything on this list https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/916396-super-nintendo/73837223

Of course SOR was better than Final Fight 1 (both versions on SNES ha) Who thinks otherwise? That Genesis "bias" lasted when SNES wasn't out yet and then SNES "slow, sluggy, flicker flawerd library" debut (yup sonic > smworld) but a year later boom like magic SNES was king forever. Because of SF2 basically. No way I'm not buying it even the Genesis library was better than SNES. The Genesis WAS the better buy those 2 years so no bias, however the SNES was not a better buy in 1993 SF2 was out for Genesis then and you could play as bosses.


people forgetting that the Mega Drive came out in 1990 in the USA and The Snes nearly 2 years latter, so the SNES was always going to have 2 years more support than the MD,

Exactly. And 3 or 4 years before SNES was released overall right? The Genesis lifespan is underrated. Esp the variants like wondermega, nomad (portable), majestic Genesis 3, multi-mega, pcs and clones (scorpion) not counted in official 40 million in console sales. I think Genesis or Genesis-like products outsold SNES 50 million tbh. Nintendo was caught lying about SNES numbers in 1993 btw. Damn, can't find the youtube video with screenshots and person discussing it.

DrunkenHigh
01-19-2018, 02:09 AM
^Not sure what to tell you up there. You really love the Saturn and really hate a 20 year old magazine review?

The Transformers movie is not rare. VCD doesn't even come close to DVD quality and was barely recognized in the States. And it makes no sense to even bring that up.

Vector
01-19-2018, 03:16 AM
^Not sure what to tell you up there. You really love the Saturn and really hate a 20 year old magazine review?

I wouldn't say a hate it, I'm giving reasons why I disagree with it. SNES > Saturn 3 years in a row especially in 1998 with no new games and not even putting Saturn in 1999 guide?

1996
Super Nintendo - 7 / 8 / 7 / 8 30
Saturn - 8 / 6 / 7 / 8 29

1997
Sega Saturn - 7.5 / 7.0 / 6.5 / 7.0 28
Super Nintendo - 9.0 / 8.0 / 8.0 / 7.5 32.5

1998
Saturn - 6.5 / 7.5 / 5.0 / 5.0 / 8.5 32.5
Super Nintendo - 5.5 / 8.0 / 7.0 / 7.0 / 8.0 35.5

I do like the Saturn though. What I "hate" are 20 year olds youtubers saying they ran to the store to buy Earthbound/Mother2 in droves for the SNES the greatest console ever made aka the only 16 bit system in that era when they weren't even born yet and EB didn't get a big following until internet/youtube blew it up in 2000s or "When the Saturn launched I was only 3 and a half years old and I had my own SNES hooked up had a Gameboy and been playing video games for years by that point blah blah so I don't remember accurately the Saturn launch but I know for a fact (at 3 and a half years old ha) no adult I ever knew played it" ha NO you don't remember ANYTHING, stop trying to act like your older than you are or talking b.s. in a documentary no less @ 16:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdlJj3B8KZU&t=1254s Alot of misinformation in that "documentary" though me and my friends all bought the Saturn (I even bought 32x before) at launch and a bit later the media was saying Virtua Cop created killers because a kid shot people at a mall training how to use gun on Saturn, seen on news in 90s.
https://ibb.co/hy3jmw

https://image.ibb.co/kvWteG/Screenshot_2018_01_19_03_01_43cc.png


The Transformers movie is not rare.

The one I have pictured is, it is on just 1 vcd instead of 2 like they usually were and the quality is outstanding. Do me a favor and show me that exact vcd all over the internet since it isn't rare. I'll wait. Here you go https://ibb.co/eEarYb
https://image.ibb.co/iLVfRw/tfstape_6.jpg


VCD doesn't even come close to DVD quality and was barely recognized in the States. And it makes no sense to even bring that up.

Actually that vcd is close to dvd quality, do you have it? I never said vcd was big in the states but I knew about it and had the Saturn vcd card in 90s and ordered vcds off ebay in the states. Also your claim of vcd doesn't even come close to dvd quality is kind of incorrect https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/76614-Near-DVD-quality-VCD-movies-on-1-or-2-discs%21%21%21%21%21%21 and https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/how-can-i-improve-my-vcd-picture-quality--19860/ and http://navasgroup.com/tech/video/xvcd.htm and https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/47070-Best-VCD-quality etc. It does make sense to it bring up because the Saturn could play them (almost all vcd formats...and I loved watching movies on my Saturn) and SNES couldn't. Also the Netlink wasn't popular overall but was cool for searching web or dialed up to play games with others (and still do) so how does that negate anything I said? If you want I can burn you a copy of the vcd and you can check (if I can find it and it doesn't have disc rot damn I bought it like 15 years ago ha), sound cool? If you got a dvd player you can put the vcd I'm sending you vs all the TF1986 vcds and 20th Ann dvd and you can compare for yourself. Or if anybody else is interested PM me.

And you can knock X-Perts all you want, but show me a classic SNES game from late 1996 or 1997. I wouldn't call Arcaniod, Kirby DL3 in 1997 classic or SFA2 in 1996 classic. Nor were The Lost World: Jurassic Park, nba live 97 or 98 or maddens for Genesis either then but the fact the Genesis was supported from 1988-1997 and had a great library in that entire time frame is impressive. And that was the prime of Saturn life (1997), which I played more than both.

I noticed you don't have any +rep so I gave you one. I like reading the posts and civil debates in thread so far. https://ibb.co/kAwZKG

I would say judging how many games Blockbuster had in your area for various systems as a measure of a systems popularity or quality is silly considering in my area (and others key word other people experiences) there were far more Genesis games than SNES for rent at all the blockbusters for miles so what does that say? They had more Saturn games there than PS1 in 1995 too.

Added screenshots and scores.

Gryson
01-19-2018, 09:17 AM
SNES > Saturn 3 years in a row with a higher rating in 1998 than previous years with no new games and not even putting Saturn in 1999 guide?

1996
Super Nintendo - 7 / 8 / 7 / 8 30
Saturn - 8 / 6 / 7 / 8 29

1997
Sega Saturn - 7.5 / 7.0 / 6.5 / 7.0 28
Super Nintendo - 9.0 / 8.0 / 8.0 / 7.5 32.5

1998
Saturn - 6.5 / 7.5 / 5.0 / 5.0 / 8.5 32.5
Super Nintendo - 5.5 / 8.0 / 7.0 / 7.0 / 8.0 35.5


You realize that 1998 had 5 reviewers' ratings instead of 4 and that's why they had higher ratings, right?

In 1998, 2/5 reviewers rated the Saturn higher than SNES and 1 was almost the same. Really hard to see the bias you're claiming.

Team Andromeda
01-19-2018, 09:41 AM
Exactly. And 3 or 4 years before SNES was released overall right? The Genesis lifespan is underrated. Esp the variants like wondermega, nomad (portable), majestic Genesis 3, multi-mega, pcs and clones (scorpion) not counted in official 40 million in console sales. I think Genesis or Genesis-like products outsold SNES 50 million tbh. Nintendo was caught lying about SNES numbers in 1993 btw. Damn, can't find the youtube video with screenshots and person discussing it.

The Mega Drive came out in 88 in Japan and the Saturn followed in 1994, that 6 years, exactly the same between the Super Famicom (1990) and then the N64 hitting in 1996 in Japan. So its sheer nonsense to make out that 1) the Saturn was rushed and that Nintendo supported their console for longer. In fact NEC beat both SEGA and Nintendo with the time frame between the PC-Eng in 1987 and the PC FX in 1994 But I never hear anyone say NEC supported it console longer than either SEGA or Nintendo, because it doesn't fit their agenda of SOA had no clue of the Saturn, Sega Japan didn't support the MD for long enough and TOM K was right he didn't lie or spin and it was all SEGA Japan fault.

Thats to also overlook how poor the latter games on the MD sold;Comic Zone, Vectorman II all sold like crap, after 5 to six years people wanted to move on, or the fact that ever after the Saturn and 32X shipped SEGA In-House teams were still making games for the MD, unlike Nintendo who as soon as the N64 hit Japan had all their In-House teams only supporting N64 projects and even dropping finished Snes games like Star Fox II.

sull56ivan2010
01-19-2018, 10:06 AM
The Mega Drive came out in 88 in Japan and the Saturn followed in 1994, that 6 years, exactly the same between the Super Famicom (1990) and then the N64 hitting in 1996 in Japan. So its sheer nonsense to make out that 1) the Saturn was rushed and that Nintendo supported their console for longer. In fact NEC beat both SEGA and Nintendo with the time frame between the PC-Eng in 1987 and the PC FX in 1994 But I never hear anyone say NEC supported it console longer than either SEGA or Nintendo, because it doesn't fit their agenda of SOA had no clue of the Saturn, Sega Japan didn't support the MD for long enough and TOM K was right he didn't lie or spin and it was all SEGA Japan fault.

Thats to also overlook how poor the latter games on the MD sold;Comic Zone, Vectorman II all sold like crap, after 5 to six years people wanted to move on, or the fact that ever after the Saturn and 32X shipped SEGA In-House teams were still making games for the MD, unlike Nintendo who as soon as the N64 hit Japan had all their In-House teams only supporting N64 projects and even dropping finished Snes games like Star Fox II.

Are you going to keep repeating yourself with the same "It's America's fault" stuff?

Vector
01-19-2018, 10:09 AM
You realize that 1998 had 5 reviewers' ratings instead of 4 and that's why they had higher ratings, right?

In 1998, 2/5 reviewers rated the Saturn higher than SNES and 1 was almost the same. Really hard to see the bias you're claiming.

Wow I knew I should have typed that because somebody would nitpick I didn't type that, sigh...yes I realized it when I added up the numbers, I saw/realized there were 5 numbers there that year to be calculated not 4 like the previous 2 years. I did calculate the 5 numbers, right? =) . Okay now explain the 2 years of 4 scores (not 5 like last year) bias or just erase the last persons scores so it won't be 5 reviews but 4 like the previous 2 years and you'll get Saturn 24 SNES 27.5 for said year (1998), still higher. I'm not really discussing each persons score just the overall score where SNES ended up higher than Saturn which it is a fact it was rated higher 3 years in a row overall each of those years regardless. What was better for SNES in 1996 or more importantly in 1997 than Saturn? How was it even a better console, can't even play vcds. No there is no bias. Obviously SNES was better than Genesis for 4 years, better than Saturn for 2 and damn near better than PS1 in its prime ha.

How come me and others can clearly see the bias but you can't (just curious not trying to be rude). I would give you a +rep for the good debate but it says I must wait.

sull56ivan2010
01-19-2018, 10:34 AM
I'll just reiterate what I've said before. Player's Choice, budgeted system at a very cheap price. You could still find big name titles on the SNES. Even more by 1998 with the Majesco re-releases. Early titles like Turtles in Time, Mega Man X. Still being able to find Yoshi's Island. DK Country trilogy, Zelda. You could still find a number of Nintendo's heavy hitters. Even things like F-Zero and Mario Kart. I'm not seeing any bias, despite the SNES being the most overrated system to me.

Vector
01-19-2018, 10:37 AM
despite the SNES being the most overrated system to me.


This is the crux of the matter I guess. However nothing in 1997 for SNES imo was better or a heavy hitter at all more than Saturns library. I can find early Genesis or even Saturn heavy hitters too. I thought I would be facing an up hill battle for this thread but in fact I'm finding nothing to negate how Saturn was worse than SNES in those 3 years. I really like everyone's perspective though.

sull56ivan2010
01-19-2018, 10:46 AM
This is the crux of the matter I guess. However nothing in 1997 for SNES imo was better or a heavy hitter at all more than Saturns library. I can find early Genesis or even Saturn heavy hitters too.

But again, look at what you could still get on SNES in 97 and 98. It was easy to get your hands on the heavy hitters at budget price. Especially a number of Nintendo's own games. Mario World, DKC trilogy, Yoshi's Island, Zelda, F-Zero, Mario Kart. The list goes on. Even third party games that Majesco was re-releasing. Super Castlevania, Mega Man X, Contra, Pac-Man 2, and a lot more. Pretty easy to build up a quick library after getting the system for 100 dollars back then.

Vector
01-19-2018, 10:47 AM
But again, look at what you could still get on SNES in 97 and 98. It was easy to get your hands on the heavy hitters at budget price. Especially a number of Nintendo's own games. Mario World, DKC trilogy, Yoshi's Island, Zelda, F-Zero, Mario Kart. The list goes on. Even third party games that Majesco was re-releasing. Super Castlevania, Mega Man X, Contra, Pac-Man 2, and a lot more. Pretty easy to build up a quick library after getting the system for 100 dollars back then.

And how would that be any different than the great games from Genesis' library from buying a budget Genesis under $100? Yet the Genesis got 4s and SNES got 8's. Or Saturns library from 1995 to 1998. I listed all the outstanding games. How much did Yoshi Island earn? I'm curious because nobody I knew liked hearing that crying all the time and just popped in Mario World again instead. You could have bought a Saturn for a budget price in 1998 too.

sull56ivan2010
01-19-2018, 11:01 AM
And how would that be any different than the great games from Genesis' library buy buying a budget Genesis under $100? Yet the Genesis got 4s and SNES got 8's. Or Saturns library from 1995 to 1998. I listed all the outstanding games.

Again, the heavy hitters. On Genesis, you're finding mostly licensed games in 97/98. Don't get me wrong. Games like Aladdin and Lion King are great, but you're not seeing stuff like a Phantasy Star or a Streets of Rage getting a re-release at that time. Most of the budget stuff was Disney games, board games, other licenses (Jurassic Park, X-Men to name a few). Maybe a few Sonic games, Yeah, there was stuff like Castlevania and Contra, but that doesn't give the Genesis a leg up over what you could still find on the SNES in that same time period.

Once again, price is a factor. You could accumulate all this stuff on SNES without spending too much back then. You had to invest a bit for the Saturn to get some of those 50 dollar games. People wanted more than just arcade games. The Internet for gaming was not a big deal on consoles until Dreamcast. You're overrating the Saturn quite a bit.

Team Andromeda
01-19-2018, 11:12 AM
Are you going to keep repeating yourself with the same "It's America's fault" stuff?

No, SEGA Japan messed up with no Sonic ready early in, poor launch tools, not trying to get Square on board and in an EDGE special with Squaresoft last month, they said that a big reason for going with SONY, was SONY agreeing to push the game and push the title in America.

But to make out the Mega Drive was dropped early when both the N64 and Saturn launched 6 years after their predecessors is nonsense and I'll give SEGA America all the credit in the world for making a far better go of it with the DC and Mega CD

Team Andromeda
01-19-2018, 11:14 AM
But again, look at what you could still get on SNES in 97 and 98. It was easy to get your hands on the heavy hitters at budget price. Especially a number of Nintendo's own games. Mario World, DKC trilogy, Yoshi's Island, Zelda, F-Zero, Mario Kart. The list goes on. Even third party games that Majesco was re-releasing. Super Castlevania, Mega Man X, Contra, Pac-Man 2, and a lot more. Pretty easy to build up a quick library after getting the system for 100 dollars back then.

That is true of any console, why bother with the PS2 when the PS had so many great tiles at rock bottom prices, same for the PS3 when you had the PS2. Think like that one will never upgrade and I remember the 1st year of the PS2 was not great in terms of software and the same goes for the DC and please lets not go on when the systems hit America, but when they 1st launched and especially for the DC quality software wasn't there and it took until March 1999 for some decent numbers of software to hit the DC in Japan. Why get a super expensive PS3 when the PS2 had so many AAA titles and was super cheap.

In the end people move on

gamevet
01-19-2018, 11:18 AM
I really tire of people saying this and people forgetting that the Mega Drive came out in 1990 in the USA and The Snes nearly 2 years latter, so the SNES was always going to have 2 years more support than the MD, thatís to also overlook the N64 hardware was delayed for a year too. SEGA still supported the MD with In-house games after the Saturn and 32X shipped, unlike Nintendo dropped the SNES like a stone when the N64 hit.

Also one needs to loook at the poor sales of late MD software like Comix Zone, Vector Man II, Ristsar to see most MD fans were getting bored of their system.

The Genesis was launched in North America in 1989.

Vector
01-19-2018, 11:20 AM
You're overrating the Saturn quite a bit.

How exactly am I doing that? I'm listing the great Saturn games from 1995-1998, it was reduced in price then, had cd, vcd and Netlink capabilities (I believe Pluto had that already built in and you would get that out of the gate instead of buying each separately like vcd card). I'm not finding any advantage the SNES had over it in those 3 years nor overall, imo. You can keep naming those same 20 great SNES games and I can keep naming those 50 great Saturn games. Let us look at snes classic mini games aka a big chunk of SNES "classics".

01) Sonic Jam > Mario World
02) SFA2 > SF2 or SF2 Turbo or SFA2 or Killer Instinct
03) Shinobi X > Kirby All Star
04) Guardian Heroes (both action and rpg) > Mario rpg
05) Sega Rally > Mario Kart
06) VF2 > Super Punch Out
07) FS3 > Shining Force 3 (I'll give you that)
08) Burning Rangers > Contra 3
09) Zelda > Legend of Oasis (I'll give you that too, again I'm not big on rpgs)
10) Castlevina SOTN / Akumajō Dracula X: Nocturne in the Moonlight or whatever its called, have a burned cd-r of it > Castlevania 4
11) Astal > Kirby Dream Course
12) Secrets Of Mania > Dark Savior or Dragon Force (I don't know much about rpg so that is 3)
13) Daytona USA > F-Zero
14) Donkey Kong Country > Bug or Clocks (That is 4) or might be tied with Tomb Raider
15) Panzer Dragoon > StarFox
16) Panzer Dragoon Saga > Earthbound
17) Super Metriod > Metal Slug (Okay that is 5)
18) Nights or MMX4 > MegaMan X
19) Tempest 2000 or Die Hard Arcade or Rayman or damn near anything > Yoshi Island
20) Pandemonium or Gex or Fighting Force or anything LOL > Ghouls
21) Virtua On or PD2 > StarFox 2

So out of those 21 SNES classics etched into the SNES bible only 23% (maybe less as I'm no rpg expert) of them are better than Saturn Games. I didn't even put many Saturn fighters on the list because it wipes the floor compared to SNES like X-Men vs SF, Night Warriors, Last Bronx, SFA3, Soul Edge, Fighters MM, SNK games, Fighting Vipers, MK3, X-Men, Dead Or Alive etc nor did I put most of the great Saturn games like many shmups, FPS, horror games, VC series, old Arcade classics like Afterburner or Space Harrior and there are still great racing games etc man I could go on and on off the top of my head with great Saturn games. Plus the Saturn looked better =) Again my debate seems to be getting easier instead of harder...

Vector
01-19-2018, 11:21 AM
The Genesis was launched in North America in 1989.

Yes August 14th 1989 I believe. Just the fact it was supported from 1988 - 1997 is impressive. Isn't that longer than the SNES was supported? Hmm

sull56ivan2010
01-19-2018, 11:37 AM
How exactly am I doing that? I'm listing the great Saturn games from 1995-1998, it was reduced in price then, had cd, vcd and Netlink capabilities (I believe Pluto had that already built in and you would get that out of the gate instead of buying each separately like vcd card). I'm not finding any advantage the SNES had over it in those 3 years nor overall, imo. You can keep naming those same 20 great SNES games and I can keep naming those 50 great Saturn games.

I could name a lot more than 20 SNES games.

Team Andromeda
01-19-2018, 11:43 AM
Yes August 14th 1989 I believe. Just the fact it was supported from 1988 - 1997 is impressive. Isn't that longer than the SNES was supported? Hmm

In terms of making In-House titles yes. I can't think of a single In-House title after the N64 hit Japan, I can think of a number of In-House titles from SEGA after the 32X hit the USA and Saturn Japan.

Team Andromeda
01-19-2018, 11:45 AM
The Genesis was launched in North America in 1989.

I thought I was on your ingore list? But hey sorry it was typo and mixing it up with the Super Famicom date

Thief
01-19-2018, 11:54 AM
So nobody believes most in those 32-Bit days were mostly obsessed with the 32-era games and not 16-Bit. Ok then, so why did the 16-Bit era die during that era?

Conclusion; Buyers Guide Fail.

Gryson
01-19-2018, 11:55 AM
How come me and others can clearly see the bias but you can't

I think you're trying to look at this Buyer's Guide as something more than what it is. It's not a ranking of consoles. It's not a comparison of how good different consoles' games are. It's simply a rating of how much value each console might provide to a potential buyer (thus "Buyer's Guide").

When the Saturn first came out, the Buyer's Guide rated it highly (almost the same as the SNES), although not as high as the PlayStation. The PlayStation dominated the lists for all years except 1997 when the N64 came out and barely beat it. However, after that, the EGM reviewers were quite harsh against the N64. That doesn't make sense if they have a Nintendo bias. You should instead be arguing they have a Sony bias if you're going to be silly about it.

I think you're seeing the Saturn through rose-colored glasses. The system had some good games and a lot of potential, but sadly most of that was lost. The EGM reviewers reflected the general sentiment at the time beyond 1997: the Saturn was a risky purchase. There weren't many big titles coming out on it, it didn't have good 3rd party support or exclusives, and Sega's past performance with the 32X caused people to lose confidence in them. The PlayStation was a much safer recommendation and pretty much guaranteed value into the future.

The SNES they rated high as a cheap option for people who hadn't yet gotten into the 16-bit generation. I don't see the SNES as in competition with the Saturn, especially once the N64 was released. EGM's ratings shouldn't reflect a direct comparison; they were most certainly targeting different consumers with each recommendation.

So what is it that you're taking issue with?

1) Beyond 1997, do you think the SNES wasn't a good budget system for people who hadn't gotten into 16-bit gaming yet?

2) Beyond 1997, do you think the Saturn offered the same or higher potential than the PlayStation?

Gryson
01-19-2018, 12:00 PM
So nobody believes most in those 32-Bit days were mostly obsessed with the 32-era games and not 16-Bit. Ok then, so why did the 16-Bit era die during that era?

Conclusion; Buyers Guide Fail.

I think most gamers had moved on to 32-bit by 1997.

However, as I just said, the SNES was definitely doing well as a budget system targeting a specific consumer who was just getting around to upgrading. There's no denying the DKC2 and Mario RPG sales numbers. Going into 1997 and beyond, though, the SNES was on the way out (and subsequently the Buyer's Guide scores were falling).

DrunkenHigh
01-19-2018, 12:03 PM
I wouldn't say a hate it, I'm giving reasons why I disagree with it. SNES > Saturn 3 years in a row with a higher rating in 1998 than previous years with no new games and not even putting Saturn in 1999 guide?

1996
Super Nintendo - 7 / 8 / 7 / 8 30
Saturn - 8 / 6 / 7 / 8 29

1997
Sega Saturn - 7.5 / 7.0 / 6.5 / 7.0 28
Super Nintendo - 9.0 / 8.0 / 8.0 / 7.5 32.5

1998
Saturn - 6.5 / 7.5 / 5.0 / 5.0 / 8.5 32.5
Super Nintendo - 5.5 / 8.0 / 7.0 / 7.0 / 8.0 35.5

I do like the Saturn though. What I "hate" are 20 year olds youtubers saying they ran to the store to buy Earthbound/Mother2 in droves for the SNES the greatest console ever made aka the only 16 bit system in that era when they weren't even born yet and EB didn't get a big following until internet/youtube blew it up in 2000s or "When the Saturn launched I was only 3 and a half years old and I had my own SNES hooked up had a Gameboy and been playing video games for years by that point blah blah so I don't remember accurately the Saturn launch but I know for a fact (at 3 and a half years old ha) no adult I ever knew played it" ha NO you don't remember ANYTHING, stop trying to act like your older than you are or talking b.s. in a documentary no less @ 16:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdlJj3B8KZU&t=1254s Alot of misinformation in that "documentary" though me and my friends all bought the Saturn (I even bought 32x before) at launch and a bit later the media was saying Virtua Cop created killers because a kid shot people at a mall training how to use gun on Saturn, seen on news in 90s.
https://ibb.co/hy3jmw



The one I have pictured is, it is on just 1 vcd instead of 2 like they usually were and the quality is outstanding. Do me a favor and show me that exact vcd all over the internet since it isn't rare. I'll wait. Here you go https://ibb.co/eEarYb



Actually that vcd is close to dvd quality, do you have it? I never said vcd was big in the states but I knew about it and had the Saturn vcd card in 90s and ordered vcds off ebay in the states. Also your claim of vcd doesn't even come close to dvd quality is kind of incorrect https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/76614-Near-DVD-quality-VCD-movies-on-1-or-2-discs%21%21%21%21%21%21 and https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/how-can-i-improve-my-vcd-picture-quality--19860/ and http://navasgroup.com/tech/video/xvcd.htm and https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/47070-Best-VCD-quality etc. It does make sense to it bring up because the Saturn could play them (almost all vcd formats...and I loved watching movies on my Saturn) and SNES couldn't. Also the Netlink wasn't popular overall but was cool for searching web or dialed up to play games with others (and still do) so how does that negate anything I said? If you want I can burn you a copy of the vcd and you can check (if I can find it and it doesn't have disc rot damn I bought it like 15 years ago ha), sound cool? If you got a dvd player you can put the vcd I'm sending you vs all the TF1986 vcds and 20th Ann dvd and you can compare for yourself. Or if anybody else is interested PM me.

And you can knock X-Perts all you want, but show me a classic SNES game from late 1996 or 1997. I wouldn't call Arcaniod, Kirby DL3 in 1997 classic or SFA2 in 1996 classic. Nor were The Lost World: Jurassic Park, nba live 97 or 98 or maddens for Genesis either then but the fact the Genesis was supported from 1988-1997 and had a great library in that entire time frame is impressive. And that was the prime of Saturn life (1997), which I played more than both.

I noticed you don't have any +rep so I gave you one. I like reading the posts and civil debates in thread so far. https://ibb.co/kAwZKG

I would say judging how many games Blockbuster had in your area for various systems as a measure of a systems popularity or quality is silly considering in my area (and others key word other people experiences) there were far more Genesis games than SNES for rent at all the blockbusters for miles so what does that say? They had more Saturn games there than PS1 in 1995 too.

Added screenshots and scores.

I don't even know where to start here. The Saturn needed some expensive add-on to play vcds that wasn't even available in NA.

I have several import Shaw Bros vcds. They're not DVD quality, there's artifacting. Transformers didn't use some magical compression technique to get DVD quality. Those links have nothing to do with how mpeg-1 compression works.

I'll just leave it there for now. There are so many errors in those posts, it's too much.

Vector
01-19-2018, 12:27 PM
I could name a lot more than 20 SNES games.

So could I.




How exactly am I doing that? I'm listing the great Saturn games from 1995-1998, it was reduced in price then, had cd, vcd and Netlink capabilities (I believe Pluto had that already built in and you would get that out of the gate instead of buying each separately like vcd card). I'm not finding any advantage the SNES had over it in those 3 years nor overall, imo. You can keep naming those same 20 great SNES games and I can keep naming those 50 great Saturn games. Let us look at snes classic mini games aka a big chunk of SNES "classics".

01) Sonic Jam > Mario World
02) SFA2 > SF2 or SF2 Turbo or SFA2 or Killer Instinct


05) Sega Rally > Mario Kart

07) FF3 > Shining Force 3 (I'll give you that)

09) Zelda > Legend of Oasis (I'll give you that too, again I'm not big on rpgs)
10) Castlevina SOTN / Akumajō Dracula X: Nocturne in the Moonlight or whatever its called, have a burned cd-r of it > Castlevania 4
11) Astal > Kirby
12) Secrets Of Mania > Dark Savior or Dragon Force (I don't know much about rpg so that is 3)
13) Daytona USA > F-Zero
14) Donkey Kong Country > Bug or Clocks (That is 4) or might be tied with Tomb Raider
15) Panzer Dragoon > StarFox

17) Super Metriod >
18) MMX4 > MegaMan X
19) Rayman or damn near anything > Yoshi Island
20) Pandemonium or Gex or anything LOL > Ghouls
21) PD2 > StarFox 2

So out of those 21 SNES classics etched into the SNES bible only 23% (maybe less as I'm no rpg expert) of them are better than Saturn Games. I didn't even put many Saturn fighters on the list because it wipes the floor compared to SNES like X-Men vs SF, Night Warriors, Last Bronx, SFA3, Soul Edge, Fighters MM, SNK games, Fighting Vipers, MK3, X-Men, Dead Or Alive etc nor did I put most of the great Saturn games like many shmups, FPS, horror games, VC series, old Arcade classics like Afterburner or Space Harrior and there are still great racing games etc man I could go on and on off the top of my head with great Saturn games. Plus the Saturn looked better =) Again my debate seems to be getting easier instead of harder...

What else, what else...


I don't even know where to start here. The Saturn needed some expensive add-on to play vcds that wasn't even available in NA.

And? I could play vcds in the USA in 1996 and SNES couldn't. The add on chips in SNES games made them more expensive. Both had add ons.


I have several import Shaw Bros vcds. They're not DVD quality, there's artifacting. Transformers didn't use some magical compression technique to get DVD quality. Those links have nothing to do with how mpeg-1 compression works.

Where is the TF vcd I was specifically talking about, I thought it wasn't rare um did you find it yet? Did you ever watch that vcd to know whether it is near dvd quality or not? If not, why are you making claims that or any vcd is nowhere near dvd quality then? Would you like me to send you the vcd for free to see for yourself? MPEG-1 was brought up in half of the links I posted.

"DGrob wrote on 8/29/2003, 12:58 PM
Burning your VCD in Nero you might be "transcoding" a mpeg1 file of a mpeg1 file. Try rendering to *.avi and routing through Nero for a VCD.
Jide,

I agree with what DGrob said. Rendering as AVI should prevent Nero from recompressing MPEG-1 to MPEG-1 if indeed that is what is happening."

Even giving link to a mpeg1 program called vcdeasy inside my link.

Other site, even had charts.

"Limitations of VCD (MPEG1)

Low resolution: 352 x 240 (NTSC)
CBR (Constant Bit Rate): 1150 Kbps video
SVCD (MPEG2) drawbacks:
More computer power to decode
Less compatible with DVD players

Overcoming VCD Limitations

Higher resolution: 720 x 480 (NTSC)
Same as DV (digital camcorders)
Same as DVD
VBR (Variable Bit Rate) encoding
Minimum: 300 Kbps (compatibility)
Maximum: 2500 Kbps (compatibility)"


I'll just leave it there for now. There are so many errors in those posts, it's too much.

Yet you have negated nothing I said so far.

sull56ivan2010
01-19-2018, 12:43 PM
Now you're just being a prick, Vector. Your list makes no sense with some of the titles you listed.

Vector
01-19-2018, 12:45 PM
Now you're just being a prick, Vector. Your list makes no sense with some of the titles you listed.

Why are you calling me names, I'm just giving my opinion. It is true some games I listed aren't comparable to others, but some are. I just listed everything off the top of my head, I'll try to fix up list. I bet you would agree with some or most of it though?

01) Sonic Jam > Mario World or Super Mario All Stars = Seems Fair
02) SFA2 > SF2 or SF2 Turbo or SFA2 or Killer Instinct = Seems Fair 2d fighting games
05) Sega Rally > Mario Kart = Seems Fair are there 2d sprite racing Saturn games?
07) FS3 > Shining Force 3 (I'll give you that) = Seems Fair
09) Zelda > Legend of Oasis (I'll give you that too, again I'm not big on rpgs) = Seems Fair 2d rpg
10) Castlevina SOTN / Akumajō Dracula X: Nocturne in the Moonlight or whatever its called, have a burned cd-r of it (the game exists !) or Shinobi X > Castlevania 4 = Seems Fair
11) Astal > Kirby 2d games = Seems Fair
12) Secrets Of Mania > Dark Savior or Dragon Force (I don't know much about rpg so that is 3) = Seems Fair
13) Daytona USA > F-Zero = Seems Fair again are there sprite not polygon racing games on Saturn?
14) Donkey Kong Country > Bug or Clocks (That is 4) = Seems Fair
15) Panzer Dragoon > StarFox = Seems Fair On Rail Polygon Flying shooters
17) Super Metriod > Metal Slug (Okay that is 5) = Seems Fair
18) MMX4 > MegaMan X = Seems Fair
21) PD2 > StarFox 2 = On Rail Polygon




So what is it that you're taking issue with?

1) Beyond 1997, do you think the SNES wasn't a good budget system for people who hadn't gotten into 16-bit gaming yet?

2) Beyond 1997, do you think the Saturn offered the same or higher potential than the PlayStation?

3) That the SNES in 1996 and 1997 not labeled a budget system like in 1998 (what about the SNES was better than Saturn in 1997?) got higher scores than Saturn.

sull56ivan2010
01-19-2018, 12:56 PM
Why are you calling me names, I'm just giving my opinion. I bet you would agree with some or most of it though?

Because you're being an ass about this and acting like the Saturn was this perfect machine when it wasn't.

I wouldn't agree with your list because these two sport different libraries. Not to mention you lost any credibility with listing Sonic Jam and saying it's better than Mario World. That's not even a good comparison. The Shinboi comparison to Kirby is not a good one. Guardian Heroes vs. Mario RPG is stupid. Sega Rally and Mario Kart are completely different. Virtual Fighter and Super Punch Out are different genres. Burning Rangers and Contra III are different. Nobody has played the Saturn version of Symphony so that makes no sense. Not to mention it has a lot more issues compared to it's PS1 counterpart. Astal and Kirby Dream Course are different genres. Daytona and F-Zero are different. You are completely unfair with Yoshi's Island and Ghouls and Ghosts with listing mostly games that are unrelated to the genre it is in. The rest I have no comment.

It's nice to see some pro Sega people but you don't give the SNES a fair chance.

Vector
01-19-2018, 12:58 PM
Because you're being an ass about this and acting like the Saturn was this perfect machine when it wasn't.

Where did I say or imply it was perfect? Quote me. I'll wait. Why are you getting so emotional? Because I said the Saturn looks cooler than that white (well for some people the white is now yellow) and purple lego block looking SNES too? Can you please stop calling me names, I'm respecting you and others here in this thread. "So out of those 21 SNES classics etched into the SNES bible only 23% (maybe less as I'm no rpg expert) of them are better than Saturn Games. I didn't even put many Saturn fighters on the list because it wipes the floor compared to SNES like X-Men vs SF, Night Warriors, Last Bronx, SFA3, Soul Edge, Fighters MM, SNK games, Fighting Vipers, MK3, X-Men, Dead Or Alive etc nor did I put most of the great Saturn games like many shmups, FPS, horror games, VC series, old Arcade classics like Afterburner or Space Harrior and there are still great racing games Virtua On, Tomb Raider etc man I could go on and on off the top of my head with great Saturn games. Plus the Saturn looked better =) Again my debate seems to be getting easier instead of harder... " Saying this doesn't seem to be unfair at all.



I wouldn't agree with your list because these two sport different libraries. Not to mention you lost any credibility with listing Sonic Jam and saying it's better than Mario World. That's not even a good comparison.

Why they are 2d platformers. Should I have said Sonic Jam > Mario All Stars then since they are both flagship 2d platformers collections of games?


The Shinboi comparison to Kirby is not a good one. Guardian Heroes vs. Mario RPG is stupid. Sega Rally and Mario Kart are completely different. Virtual Fighter and Super Punch Out are different genres. Burning Rangers and Contra III are different. Nobody has played the Saturn version of Symphony so that makes no sense. Not to mention it has a lot more issues compared to it's PS1 counterpart. Astal and Kirby Dream Course are different genres. Daytona and F-Zero are different. You are completely unfair with Yoshi's Island and Ghouls and Ghosts with listing mostly games that are unrelated to the genre it is in. The rest I have no comment.

It's nice to see some pro Sega people but you don't give the SNES a fair chance.

I actually like and bought a SNES in 1992. However each year it seems to get more and more overrated. I think I'm being as fair as I could be here. Did Saturn have sprite racing games like F-Zero or Mario Kart I should compare things too? See post 70. 14 of the 21 things seem fair to me, I even gave the SNES 5 wins. I was just thinking of things off the top of my head, again I tried to improve list for you in post 70.

My thing is for over 2 decades people don't seem to give the Saturn a fair chance.

j_factor
01-19-2018, 01:01 PM
I'll just reiterate what I've said before. Player's Choice, budgeted system at a very cheap price. You could still find big name titles on the SNES. Even more by 1998 with the Majesco re-releases. Early titles like Turtles in Time, Mega Man X. Still being able to find Yoshi's Island. DK Country trilogy, Zelda. You could still find a number of Nintendo's heavy hitters. Even things like F-Zero and Mario Kart. I'm not seeing any bias, despite the SNES being the most overrated system to me.

I don't think this was their reasoning though? They don't give any other aging consoles much credit for their older games.


Once again, price is a factor. You could accumulate all this stuff on SNES without spending too much back then. You had to invest a bit for the Saturn to get some of those 50 dollar games. People wanted more than just arcade games. The Internet for gaming was not a big deal on consoles until Dreamcast. You're overrating the Saturn quite a bit.

The Saturn may be the bastard third of its generation but it was still well-supported for a couple years. Like I said earlier, they didn't rate the Turbografx lower than the NES or the Gamecube lower than the PS1. (Scores haven't been posted for the latter but I'm pretty damn sure.) So, while I don't think anything you're saying about the SNES is entirely wrong, it doesn't seem to hold up as something that was applied with any consistency. It sounds more like a special excuse to heap praise on the SNES only.

sull56ivan2010
01-19-2018, 01:14 PM
I don't think this was their reasoning though? They don't give any other aging consoles much credit for their older games.



The Saturn may be the bastard third of its generation but it was still well-supported for a couple years. Like I said earlier, they didn't rate the Turbografx lower than the NES or the Gamecube lower than the PS1. (Scores haven't been posted for the latter but I'm pretty damn sure.) So, while I don't think anything you're saying about the SNES is entirely wrong, it doesn't seem to hold up as something that was applied with any consistency. It sounds more like a special excuse to heap praise on the SNES only.

Maybe. The Saturn did have decent support. I'd like to get some of the games for it if I can actually find them. Don't get me wrong. I do think there is bias towards the SNES, but Sega shot themselves in the foot with the Saturn and the scores on these EGM magazines show they like it, but disappointed at the same. You could get a PlayStation for much cheaper and still get some of their Greatest Hits lineup by that point.

Thief
01-19-2018, 01:51 PM
I think most gamers had moved on to 32-bit by 1997.

However, as I just said, the SNES was definitely doing well as a budget system targeting a specific consumer who was just getting around to upgrading. There's no denying the DKC2 and Mario RPG sales numbers. Going into 1997 and beyond, though, the SNES was on the way out (and subsequently the Buyer's Guide scores were falling).

Had DKC2, it was a gaming childhood highlight that December '95. But also had an SNES since '92. So to me, a dedicated gamer, had I not have had an SNES by December 1995, I couldn't see myself choosing an SNES over another current gen console (of which I did end up with all three anyway). Then what sense would that make for mainstream causal gamers (that also came in droves during 32-Bit era, by the way)? Have you ever interacted with casual gamers before? I'll give you a quote from my brothers childhood friend "Why you guys still play these old consoles and games?" It's unfathomable to him to play anything but the latest on latest hardware.

Vector
01-19-2018, 01:54 PM
Thief

"Had DKC2, it was a gaming childhood highlight that December '95. But also had an SNES since '92. So to me, a dedicated gamer, had I not have had an SNES by December 1995, I couldn't see myself choosing an SNES over another current gen console (of which I did end up with all three anyway). Then what sense would that make for mainstream causal gamers (that also came in droves during 32-Bit era, by the way)? Have you ever interacted with casual gamers before? I'll give you a quote from my brothers childhood friend "Why you guys still play these old consoles and games?" It's unfathomable to him to play anything but the latest on latest hardware. "

Exactly ^ Also do the rest of you guys think my list in post 70 is unfair? See post 86 I fixed the minor typos and broke things down.

gamevet
01-19-2018, 04:00 PM
Why are you calling me names, I'm just giving my opinion. It is true some games I listed aren't comparable to others, but some are. I just listed everything off the top of my head, I'll try to fix up list. I bet you would agree with some or most of it though?

01) Sonic Jam > Mario World or Super Mario All Stars = Seems Fair
02) SFA2 > SF2 or SF2 Turbo or SFA2 or Killer Instinct = Seems Fair 2d fighting games
05) Sega Rally > Mario Kart = Seems Fair are there 2d sprite racing Saturn games?
07) FS3 > Shining Force 3 (I'll give you that) = Seems Fair
09) Zelda > Legend of Oasis (I'll give you that too, again I'm not big on rpgs) = Seems Fair 2d rpg
10) Castlevina SOTN / Akumajō Dracula X: Nocturne in the Moonlight or whatever its called, have a burned cd-r of it (the game exists !) or Shinobi X > Castlevania 4 = Seems Fair
11) Astal > Kirby 2d games = Seems Fair
12) Secrets Of Mania > Dark Savior or Dragon Force (I don't know much about rpg so that is 3) = Seems Fair
13) Daytona USA > F-Zero = Seems Fair again are there sprite not polygon racing games on Saturn?
14) Donkey Kong Country > Bug or Clocks (That is 4) = Seems Fair
15) Panzer Dragoon > StarFox = Seems Fair On Rail Polygon Flying shooters
17) Super Metriod > Metal Slug (Okay that is 5) = Seems Fair
18) MMX4 > MegaMan X = Seems Fair
21) PD2 > StarFox 2 = On Rail Polygon



3) That the SNES in 1996 and 1997 not labeled a budget system like in 1998 (what about the SNES was better than Saturn in 1997?) got higher scores than Saturn.

I can't agree with this list. Final Fantasy III is better than any RPG on the Saturn and Chrono Trigger was the GOTY for many magazines in 1996. People still had a high from all of those great games that came out for the SNES the previous year.

I got rid of my SNES in 1995, to pay for Import Saturn games, but I bought another SNES in 1997, because I missed playing a lot of games on it.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
01-19-2018, 04:40 PM
Had DKC2, it was a gaming childhood highlight that December '95. But also had an SNES since '92. So to me, a dedicated gamer, had I not have had an SNES by December 1995, I couldn't see myself choosing an SNES over another current gen console (of which I did end up with all three anyway). Then what sense would that make for mainstream causal gamers (that also came in droves during 32-Bit era, by the way)? Have you ever interacted with casual gamers before? I'll give you a quote from my brothers childhood friend "Why you guys still play these old consoles and games?" It's unfathomable to him to play anything but the latest on latest hardware.

Sad but true. Casual gamers today literally think I've come from another dimension when I show off my Sega collection and tell them about the games I still love to play from yesteryear. Typical comment "Uh, yeah I'm sure they were good at the time but the graphics are really bad now. Don't know how you can play them."

Thief
01-19-2018, 05:18 PM
I can't agree with this list. Final Fantasy III is better than any RPG on the Saturn and Chrono Trigger was the GOTY for many magazines in 1996. People still had a high from all of those great games that came out for the SNES the previous year.

I got rid of my SNES in 1995, to pay for Import Saturn games, but I bought another SNES in 1997, because I missed playing a lot of games on it.

Final Fantasy III is not better then Shining the Holy Ark (ditto for Chrono Trigger). Have you even played these games recently? Played CT like about a year ago and was surprised by how let down I was considering this was the game that introduced me to RPGs and had it on a pedestal like everyone else. Went to revisit FFIII not long after, what I considered best RPG on SNES, and couldn't make it past the Opera scene this time around. FF7 is now for sure my fave FF because it still holds up well with much better atmosphere and story. For some reason the story in FFIII now feels like a kids story I've outgrown. And that's the 32-Bit to 16-Bit era to me in a nutshell, more adult.

Overall in general, I find some genres greatly improved in the 32-Bit era over 16-Bit, like shmups, fighters and RPGs. (Though PSIV and rest of the Shining games on Genesis still hold up very well)


Anyway, gamevet, your Saturn fandom card has been revoked.


Why are you calling me names, I'm just giving my opinion. It is true some games I listed aren't comparable to others, but some are. I just listed everything off the top of my head, I'll try to fix up list. I bet you would agree with some or most of it though?

01) Sonic Jam > Mario World or Super Mario All Stars = Seems Fair
02) SFA2 > SF2 or SF2 Turbo or SFA2 or Killer Instinct = Seems Fair 2d fighting games
05) Sega Rally > Mario Kart = Seems Fair are there 2d sprite racing Saturn games?
07) FS3 > Shining Force 3 (I'll give you that) = Seems Fair
09) Zelda > Legend of Oasis (I'll give you that too, again I'm not big on rpgs) = Seems Fair 2d rpg
10) Castlevina SOTN / Akumajō Dracula X: Nocturne in the Moonlight or whatever its called, have a burned cd-r of it (the game exists !) or Shinobi X > Castlevania 4 = Seems Fair
11) Astal > Kirby 2d games = Seems Fair
12) Secrets Of Mania > Dark Savior or Dragon Force (I don't know much about rpg so that is 3) = Seems Fair
13) Daytona USA > F-Zero = Seems Fair again are there sprite not polygon racing games on Saturn?
14) Donkey Kong Country > Bug or Clocks (That is 4) = Seems Fair
15) Panzer Dragoon > StarFox = Seems Fair On Rail Polygon Flying shooters
17) Super Metriod > Metal Slug (Okay that is 5) = Seems Fair
18) MMX4 > MegaMan X = Seems Fair
21) PD2 > StarFox 2 = On Rail Polygon

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/bk5880a88e.jpg

(And I don't even know what FS3 is)

xelement5x
01-19-2018, 05:57 PM
I really tire of people saying this and people forgetting that the Mega Drive came out in 1990 in the USA and The Snes nearly 2 years latter, so the SNES was always going to have 2 years more support than the MD, thatís to also overlook the N64 hardware was delayed for a year too. SEGA still supported the MD with In-house games after the Saturn and 32X shipped, unlike Nintendo dropped the SNES like a stone when the N64 hit.

Also one needs to loook at the poor sales of late MD software like Comix Zone, Vector Man II, Ristsar to see most MD fans were getting bored of their system.

It's not about huge support, it's about keeping stuff going for the budget gamer of the time. Not everyone could dump $2-300 into a new system, but they could convince Grandma to buy them a newer game for their older system and still have a fun time. Even more cheap reprints (like others have mentioned) would have probably been a decent source of cash, or bundle carts with several games on them.

Where I grew up you didn't just get to ask for a new system and get it, even if it was your birthday or something. I don't think Sega would have made MOUNTAINS of cash or something, and financially I'm sure they figured if they put more resources into the Saturn it would do better, but we can see that it didn't happen that way.

Team Andromeda
01-19-2018, 06:41 PM
It's not about huge support, it's about keeping stuff going for the budget gamer of the time. Not everyone could dump $2-300 into a new system, but they could convince Grandma to buy them a newer game for their older system and still have a fun time. Even more cheap reprints (like others have mentioned) would have probably been a decent source of cash, or bundle carts with several games on them.

Where I grew up you didn't just get to ask for a new system and get it, even if it was your birthday or something. I don't think Sega would have made MOUNTAINS of cash or something, and financially I'm sure they figured if they put more resources into the Saturn it would do better, but we can see that it didn't happen that way.

Why just SEGA and Saturn, who in their right mind would spend $600 on a new PS3 when you still had a PS2 will hundreds of cheap AAA games ?. Would also make It sound like SEGA stopped making carts and hardware for its 16bit range after the Saturn, when SEGA was still making even the MEGA CD units in 1996 and discounting both hardware and software.

So sorry I donít agree with this focus on just Saturn or SEGA

OverDrone
01-19-2018, 07:10 PM
Even if you limited the comparison just to action games I'm not sure it would be so clean cut a victory for the Saturn. The Super Famicom has a pretty labyrinthine library to pick through with a lot of solid to semi-classic titles to sure up the bulk of it's output.

There's not enough pure side-scrolling action games on Saturn for a start, the meat and potatoes of 2D gaming IMO. Shooters sure.

Alianger
01-19-2018, 07:46 PM
To play devil's advocate, I think EGM were pretty fair given that you'd have 5 years worth of great SNES games to play at that point, and how western Sega gave up on the SAT too soon while also ignoring a bunch of the good games. Now if the Saturn was backwards compatible, it would've been different.

That said I don't really care about their opinion either way and don't think it had *that* much of an impact in the bigger picture.

Team Andromeda
01-19-2018, 10:12 PM
There's not enough pure side-scrolling action games on Saturn for a start, the meat and potatoes of 2D gaming IMO. Shooters sure.

Yeah all with Snes trademark slowdown. If itís 2D side scrolling actions games, then the Neo Geo was the system, forget the Snes or Saturn.

Thief
01-19-2018, 11:22 PM
Even if you limited the comparison just to action games I'm not sure it would be so clean cut a victory for the Saturn. The Super Famicom has a pretty labyrinthine library to pick through with a lot of solid to semi-classic titles to sure up the bulk of it's output.

There's not enough pure side-scrolling action games on Saturn for a start, the meat and potatoes of 2D gaming IMO. Shooters sure.

Gamers were finally getting 3D gaming experience in their home, so 2D wasn't that popular because 3D was new. The only popular 2D was Arcade experiences that weren't possible at home previously, like so;

https://tcrf.net/images/b/b7/X-Men_CotA_Juggernaut_Alternate_Palette.png

Because to finally be able to experience massive sprites like that in X-Men Children of the Atom was also a dream come true. This is the point you guys are all missing. We've experienced the 16-Bit era and an overdose of side-scrollers. The next gaming generation brought so many new experiences & possibilities, like new genres (or better interpretations of genres like racing/vehicles combat thanks to 3D) and much more faithful Arcade ports. I mean come on, the 16-Bit ports of MK2 did the job fine bitd, but when we went back to the Arcade, the Arcade experiences were still so much better and got us salivating to one day own the Arcade cabinet. And nothing closed the Arcade gap then Saturn & PS1, the days when it finally felt like the true Arcade experiences at home. How can you guys have forgotten these feelings?


By the way, I waited forever for EGM to do a review of X-Men CotA for Saturn because it was such a killer app and just to shut them up and their Saturn bias. Course, their Saturn bias was so strong that they didn't review it at all. Was not happy about that.

Vector
01-19-2018, 11:36 PM
Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
I can't agree with this list. Final Fantasy III is better than any RPG

Sorry Final Fantasy III is what I meant so "FF3 >", not "FS3 >" my bad. Thank you for pointing out my typo error guys. I just made the list real quick thinking about mainly snes mini titles as that is the big chunk of SNES classics. I put both the US and JA games of snes mini + more in list. Honestly I don't think people properly read my list (again I know I had some errors like typos) Zelda > Oasis or Metroid > whatever I mean an ">" means better right, so how could you guys not have seen that while reading my list?

No, I didn't play any of those rpgs except Zelda because I don't like rpgs as I stated in many posts I'm an action or fighters guy. I don't know a lot about rpgs which is why I gave the SNES > Saturn in rpg genre. And I know people love their Earthbound, C Trigger, Mario RPG SNES rpgs but I don't think Trigger was on snes mini list. To me the Saturn wipes the floor with SNES with fighters, shmups, FPS, etc and that is the stuff I like.

https://www.kleenex.com/-/media/images/kleenex/products-new/cool-touch/boxes-upright/29388-04kft_coltuch_50ct_2_w_tissues1-(1).png

And all these are indeed the same genre. Some are the exact franchise or even SAME GAME compared.

01) SMW > I'm not allowed to put anything here because the internet cries :cool:
02) Sonic Jam > Super Mario All Stars = Seems Fair 2d platformers of franchise compilations (IMO Sonic 1 alone is better than SMW ^)
03) SFA2 > SFA2 = Seems Fair 2d fighting games, same franchise, even same game
04) Kirby Super Star Genre(s) Action, platforming > Bug! or Clocks or Pandemonium
05) Shining Wisdom > Mario RPG
06) Mario Kart > = Seems Fair are there 2d sprite racing Saturn games?
07) Super Punch Out (I didn't realize this was classic, Mike Tyson Punch Out for NES was though) > Center Ring Boxing
08) Shining the Holy Ark > Final Fantasy III
09) Metal Slug > Contra 3
10) Zelda III > Oasis = Seems fair, over the top-like view of sprite rpgs !
11) Castlevina SOTN (Akumajō Dracula X : Nocturne in the Moonlight) > Castlevania 4 = Seems Fair 2d platformers, same franchise
12) Kirbys Dream Course >
13) Secret Of Mania > Dark Savior
14) Daytona USA > F-Zero = Seems Fair again are there sprite not polygon racing games on Saturn?
15) Astral > DKC impressive pre rendered 16 bit graphics but Astral gameplay is more fun and the 32 bits shows with colors etc
16) Panzer Dragoon > StarFox = Seems Fair On Rail Polygon Flying Shooters
17) Shining Force III > Earthbound/Mother 2 internet explodes !
18) Super Metroid >
19) MMX4 > MegaMan X = Seems Fair 2d platformers, same franchise
20) Rayman > Yoshi Island wah wah wah = Seems Fair 2d platformers
21) Gex > Super Ghouls https://www.gamefaqs.com/saturn/573959-gex/reviews/90784
22) StarFox 2 (Is it really even a classic or great, who played it before internet or mini?) > (for now) ??? = Polygon Flying Shooters
23) X-Men vs SF >
24) Fire Emblem: Mystery of the Emblem >
25) Legend of the Mystical Ninja >
26) Panel de Pon >
27) Super Soccer >
28) Super Street Fighter II X > Super Street Fighter 2: The New Challengers
29) Night Warriors >
30) Last Bronx >
31) Virtua On >
32) Soul Edge >
33) Fighters Mega Mix >
34) Shinobi X >
35) Fighting Vipers >
36) MK3 >
37) X-Men COTA >
38) Dead Or Alive >
39) R Silvergun >
40) Virtua Cop 2 >
41) Space Harrior >
42) Burning Rangers >
43) Die Hard Arcade >
44) Tempest 2000 >
45) Fighting Force >
46) Panzer Dragoon II >
47) Nights >
48) Quake >
49) Duke Nukem 3D >
50) Panzer Dragoon Saga >
51) House Of The Dead >
52) Deep Fear >
53) Battle Garegga >
54) Resident Evil >
55) Tomb Raider >
56) Powerslave/Exhumed >
57) Saturn Bomberman >
58) Virtua Fighter Remix >
59) Marvel vs SF >
60) Enemy Zero >
61) Chrono Trigger > other Saturn rpgs
62) Darius Gaiden > Super R-Type
63) Virtua Fighter 2
64) Virtua Cop 1
65) Christmas Nights Into Dreams
66) Sonic R
67) Sega Rally >
68) The King of Fighters '95 (1996)
69) Garou Densetsu 3: Road to the Final Victory (1996)
70) World Heroes Perfect (1996)
71) Real Bout Garou Densetsu (1996)
72) Samurai Spirits Zankurou Musouken (1996)
73) The King of Fighters '96 (1996)
74) Shinouken (1997)
75) Shinsetsu Samurai Spirits Bushidou Retsuden (1997)
76) Samurai Spirits Amakusa Kourin (1997)
77) Real Bout Garou Densetsu Special (1997)
78) Twinkle Star Sprites (1997)
79) The King of Fighters '97 (1998)
80) Real Bout Garou Densetsu Best Collection (1998)
81) Samurai Spirits Best Collection (1998)
82) The King of Fighters Best Collection (1998)
83) SFA
84) SFA3
85) Afterburner

List goes on and on...

I was nice and gave the SNES games MANY WINS out of 65 games but as you can see only 18% of the games are classic/outstanding compared to Saturn. It was becoming so bad I had to stop. I welcome more SNES suggestions !

Maybe it is because the SNES is regarded as a RPG powerhouse and since I'm not into RPGs I don't see how SNES was better than Saturn.

Genres/Categories

01 Racing/Sports Saturn >

02 Fighters Saturn > (it is not even close so many outstanding 2d and 3d fighters)

03 Beat Em Ups Saturn > Tenchi O Kurau II is better than FF 1 and FF1.5, Guardian Heroes is better than FF3, Nekketsu Oyako is better than Rival Turf plus Saturn had 3d beat em ups like Die Hard Arcade, Fighting Force etc but I admit Turtles In Time is classic

04 Shmups Saturn >

05 FPS Saturn >

06 On Rail > Saturn (Polygon Shooters, Arcade classics)

07 Light Gun Games TPS Saturn >

08 Hop N Bop Platformers SNES >

09 Action Platformers SNES > Metroid and Castlevania seem better, or was Shinobi X, MMX4, SOTN etc on Saturn better?

10 RPGs SNES> Snatcher, SF3 are great though.

11 Run N Guns > SNES (this is debatable though) Contra 3 many others are great but so is Wolf Fang, Metal Slug etc

12 Puzzle Games <Tie>

13 Console Design Saturn > "Saturn looks cooler than that white (well for some people the white is now yellow) and purple lego block"

14 CD-ROM capability Saturn > Makes Tempest2000 sound way better than Jag version. Yes a board has been made for SNES 44.100hz cd quality audio but it is not a cd-rom, can't play CDs. The SNES/PS proto can do cd-roms but was not released.

15 VCD capability Saturn > Watch movies and helped some parts of Saturn games look better.

16 Internet/Online Play Netlink Saturn >

17 Controller <Tie> SNES influenced PS others controllers but are small for kids while the Saturn controller is regarded as one of best ever and fit in man hands, but I'll give it a tie even though 3d controller is better

18 # of games SNES > Or am I forgetting a genre or category?

So...how was SNES overall better again? Just RPG (mostly rpgs) and 2d platformers? Basically the 2 slowest genres for a slow console. Honestly I think after I broke all this down some people are seeing the truth and are getting that "I'm in the Matrix?" feeling. So since the SNES is an rpg machine and I'm not into rpgs it makes sense I view the Saturn better as in almost every other category and overall it is better than SNES (sometimes by far).

And this whole 1998 EGM SNES budget console crap doesn't negate the 1996 or 1997 bias of them rating SNES higher than Saturn when "Virtua Cop, Fighting Vipers, Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Nights, Fighters Megamix, Panzer Dragoon 2, Quake, Guardian Heroes, Die Hard Arcade, (arcade perfect*) SF Alpha 2, Netlink internet and VCD movie capabilities games and feature were out for Saturn and when Saturn was in its prime and SNES was or was becoming a budget system then."

Gryson
01-19-2018, 11:42 PM
Thief, regardless of how little gamers cared for 16-bit games in 1996, that doesn't change that the SNES continued to sell well and its games were best sellers. There was a market for a budget console with a huge back catalog. The evidence is in the SNES's sales: ~4 million consoles sold in NA from 1996 to 1998. That's approximately 20% of the SNES's lifetime sales in NA.

Vector
01-19-2018, 11:53 PM
Thief, regardless of how little gamers cared for 16-bit games in 1996, that doesn't change that the SNES continued to sell well and its games were best sellers. There was a market for a budget console with a huge back catalog. The evidence is in the SNES's sales: ~4 million consoles sold in NA from 1996 to 1998. That's approximately 20% of the SNES's lifetime sales in NA.

But Genesis was budget and had a great library too. What was Genesis sales then, and did it factor in wondermega, multi-mega and its NA counterpart CD-X, nomad, genesis 3 etc? Also Genesis clones were rampant in 90s like Scorpion etc so Sega lossed on console numbers with such. I don't remember SNES clones tbh. Can you really go by SNES numbers, I seen documentaries claiming Nintendo lied about console sales because they knew Genesis was way ahead around 1992 or 1993 maybe 1994. Can you list the Saturn, Genesis and SNES console sales from 1994 - 1998?

Team Andromeda
01-20-2018, 01:17 AM
Thief, regardless of how little gamers cared for 16-bit games in 1996, that doesn't change that the SNES continued to sell well and its games were best sellers. There was a market for a budget console with a huge back catalog. The evidence is in the SNES's sales: ~4 million consoles sold in NA from 1996 to 1998. That's approximately 20% of the SNES's lifetime sales in NA.

Nintendo game always sell in Huge numbers, just look at some of the huge sales on the N64 or even the Wi U The simple fact of the mater was the 16 bit market was seeing a decline in software sales from 1996 onwards and even Nintendo saw a reduction in its profits then.

Alianger
01-20-2018, 01:31 AM
Regarding this "2D didn't cut it/wasn't popular anymore" idea that some are spreading - It was only true for shoot 'em ups and beat 'em ups, really, and only eventually became true for most platformers/sidescrollers with a basic premise (non-adventure/rpg/metroidvania basically), FP dungeon crawlers and fighting games. Online multiplayer also became a huge deal at this point of course, and the late 90s is when visual tastes shifted more towards animť style games.

Looka yonder: http://minirevver.weebly.com/best-selling-2d-and-25d-games-32-bit-era.html

gamevet
01-20-2018, 02:21 AM
Final Fantasy III is not better then Shining the Holy Ark (ditto for Chrono Trigger). Have you even played these games recently? Played CT like about a year ago and was surprised by how let down I was considering this was the game that introduced me to RPGs and had it on a pedestal like everyone else. Went to revisit FFIII not long after, what I considered best RPG on SNES, and couldn't make it past the Opera scene this time around. FF7 is now for sure my fave FF because it still holds up well with much better atmosphere and story. For some reason the story in FFIII now feels like a kids story I've outgrown. And that's the 32-Bit to 16-Bit era to me in a nutshell, more adult.

Final Fantasy III is better than Shining The Holy Ark. I've played through FFIII two times, as well as FFII. I've never finished FFVII and thought that STHA was a much better game. My favorite RPG of the 32-bit generation was probably Wild Arms on the PlayStation though.



Overall in general, I find some genres greatly improved in the 32-Bit era over 16-Bit, like shmups, fighters and RPGs. (Though PSIV and rest of the Shining games on Genesis still hold up very well)

Overall, yes, but I still think that Final Fantasy III is one of the best RPGs ever made. Platformers from the 16-bit generation were far better than what was offered on 32-bit though.


Anyway, gamevet, your Saturn fandom card has been revoked.

BS. I earned a membership on the fandom board, when I'd spent over $400 to become one of the 1st 50,000 North American gamers to own the Saturn. I own most of the must own North American games for the console, including Panzer Dragoon Saga, so it's not like I didn't give 100% of my devotion to the Saturn.



Gamers were finally getting 3D gaming experience in their home, so 2D wasn't that popular because 3D was new. The only popular 2D was Arcade experiences that weren't possible at home previously, like so;

https://tcrf.net/images/b/b7/X-Men_CotA_Juggernaut_Alternate_Palette.png

Because to finally be able to experience massive sprites like that in X-Men Children of the Atom was also a dream come true. This is the point you guys are all missing. We've experienced the 16-Bit era and an overdose of side-scrollers. The next gaming generation brought so many new experiences & possibilities, like new genres (or better interpretations of genres like racing/vehicles combat thanks to 3D) and much more faithful Arcade ports. I mean come on, the 16-Bit ports of MK2 did the job fine bitd, but when we went back to the Arcade, the Arcade experiences were still so much better and got us salivating to one day own the Arcade cabinet. And nothing closed the Arcade gap then Saturn & PS1, the days when it finally felt like the true Arcade experiences at home. How can you guys have forgotten these feelings?


By the way, I waited forever for EGM to do a review of X-Men CotA for Saturn because it was such a killer app and just to shut them up and their Saturn bias. Course, their Saturn bias was so strong that they didn't review it at all. Was not happy about that.

MKII was horrible on the Saturn, and X-Men: Children of the Atom on the Saturn had horrible slowdown as well. I traded both of those titles in for something better, because they weren't all that great.

The 16-bit generation also offered the arcade experience at home, and did a great job at it. You had titles like Strider, Golden Axe, Street Fighter II, NBA Jam, Mortal Kombat II, MERCS and Ghouls 'n Ghosts.

Nd-tH9fKuOo

Vector
01-20-2018, 02:46 AM
I have to say this was the most on point post in thread besides post 86.


"Alianger
Depends on the genre. Saturn is better for shoot 'em up and fighting games, and the 3D games not represented on SNES obviously. Haven't found SAT games that are quite as good as the best SNES games in these genres:

Action Adventure/RPG - Zelda 3, Secret of Evermore, Front Mission: Gun Hazard, Terranigma, SD2-3, Super Metroid (would rather play SotN on PS1) *How about Snatcher, Shining, etc
Platformer - SMW 1,2, SMB3, DKC 1,2. Sonic Jam barely counts to me since only S1 had improvements I care about and it's only on par with DKC, *How about Guardian Heroes, Castlevania SOTN, MegaManX4, Shinobi X, Astral, Rayman LOL etc

Not sure about beat 'em ups, run & guns, action platformers or puzzle games, nor RPGs since many of those are still untranslated on SAT. *I posted that in post 86

It's kinda unfair to compare 3D games but Panzer Dragoon 2 is better than the first Star Fox to me, Bulk Slash is way better than Vortex, Sega Rally and Nights are better than any mode 7 or FX racing game and I guess the FPS games are better than on SNES too. *Agreed

Ultimately I would pick SNES if I had to choose but that might change for some other genres as I play more Saturn games."

This kind of agrees with my thread more than not tbh, again see post 86. You listed some of the best SNES games and most are not better than Saturn games and Saturn beats the SNES in most genres imo.

Gamevet, SFA2 on Saturn was the best 2D fighting game on any console for years I'd say, destroying any 16 bit and even 32 bit rival. Actually the Saturn 2D and 3D fighters are unmatched especially in that era or maybe all time tbh.

Again, this debate seems to get easier and easier for me. And it seems people are putting more thought in now or at least considering the possibility the Saturn might overall be better than SNES more than ever before. Perhaps at first many of you laughed at the thread title and 2 points of this thread, but now it is perhaps becoming more clear. You can still have your opinions that EGM had no bias 2 out of those 3 years (to be fair 1998 SNES was labeled budget system) or SNES is a better console of course. Again, I'm not into rpgs. Also, sorry for my minor typos earlier.

Team Andromeda
01-20-2018, 02:50 AM
Regarding this "2D didn't cut it/wasn't popular anymore" idea that some are spreading - It was only true for shoot 'em ups and beat 'em ups, really, and only eventually became true for most platformers/sidescrollers with a basic premise (non-adventure/rpg/metroidvania basically), FP dungeon crawlers and fighting games. Online multiplayer also became a huge deal at this point of course, and the late 90s is when visual tastes shifted more towards animť style games.

Looka yonder: http://minirevver.weebly.com/best-selling-2d-and-25d-games-32-bit-era.html After Mario 64 and Tomb Raider the age of 2D platforming was dead, and also it was for case for 2D racing games. 3D was the way the industry was going.

Vector
01-20-2018, 03:08 AM
After Mario 64 and Tomb Raider the age of 2D platforming was dead, and also it was for case for 2D racing games. 3D was the way the industry was going.

That is why I liked Sonic Jam, it had great 2D Sonic games and a fun 3D Sonic bonus stage for Saturn on 1 disc. That is why I ranked it better than SMW or SMB All Stars in post 86. And how many people would argue Sonic or Sonic 2 wasn't better than SMW, even EGM agreed with that for Sonic 1 > SMW. I'm one of the rare video gamers, well on here at least, that don't like RPGs I guess (I like Zeldas and Phantasy Stars and Oasis' I guess Snatcher is a ARPG right) but besides that I'm not into them I'd rather play a puzzle game or fighting game than an rpg so clearly its Saturn > SNES.

http://www.theoldcomputer.com/game-box-art-covers/Sega/Saturn/S/Sonic%20Jam%20(E)/Sonic%20Jam%20%28E%29%20Front%2BBack.jpg

Alianger
01-20-2018, 04:08 AM
I have to say this was the most on point post in thread besides post 86.


Thanks, well I'll try to respond as well as I can to these.

AA/ARPG - "What about Guardian Heroes, Snatcher and Castelvania SOTN Saturn version?"
Platformer - "*How about MegaManX4, Shinobi X, Astral, Rayman LOL etc"

As I said SotN is better on PS1 to me, and I don't consider the others to be AA or ARPG. For hop 'n bop platformers, there's only Sonic Jam on SAT IIRC. I do like Rayman, and Astal is decent. They're just not as good as the games I mentioned.


Here's your genre comparison summarized, with my comments on each:
Run & Gun
SAT - Metal Slug; SNES -

For SNES I would add Contra 3, Sunset Riders, Smash TV and Pocky & Rocky 1-2, and for SAT there's a few other good ones: Purikura, Wolf Fang (forced scrolling), Wonder 3 - Roosters (could be seen as action platformer though). But those SNES ones are really good, so I dunno.


Action Platformer
SAT - Shinobi X, MMX4, Castlevania SOTN if you wanna count it; SNES - MegaMan X,

I would add these for SAT: Assault Suit Leynos 2, Elevator Action Returns, Silhouette Mirage, Mega Man 8, EWJ2, Ghouls 'n Ghosts 1-2 (Capcom collection, less slowdown in Super than on SNES), Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru and maybe MMX3. But SNES also has MMX2-3, Cybernator, Actraiser, Super Castlevania IV, Goemon 1-3, Super Turrican 1-2, Super Star Wars series, Skyblazer, Sparkster, Metal Warriors, Blackthorne and more. So I'm not sure. :)


Beat 'em up
SAT - Nekketsu Oyako, Guardian Heroes, Die Hard Arcade, Tenchi O Kurau II, Fighting Force (unreleased); SNES - FF 1, FF1.5, FF3, Rival Turf, Turtles In Time,

There's also the Dungeons & Dragons collection for SAT, and Ninja Warriors for SNES. But I haven't played through most of these, only TiT, Die Hard, Ninja Warriors and FF3, so I can't say for sure.


Puzzle - Unsure as I said since both have some great games, but SNES probably has a few more good ones.

Vector
01-20-2018, 04:17 AM
Thanks, well I'll try to respond as well as I can to these.

You are welcome brother.


For hop 'n bop platformers, there's only Sonic Jam on SAT IIRC. I do like Rayman, and Astal is decent. They're just not as good as the games I mentioned.

I'd rather play Sonic Jam more than Marios but ok. I did concede and give the SNES > Saturn in that genre.


Here's your genre comparison summarized, with my comments on each:
Run & Gun
SAT - Metal Slug; SNES -

For SNES I would add Contra 3, Sunset Riders, Smash TV and Pocky & Rocky 1-2, and for SAT there's a few other good ones: Purikura, Wolf Fang (forced scrolling), Wonder 3 - Roosters (could be seen as action platformer though). But those SNES ones are really good, so I dunno.

I agree which is why I gave SNES > Saturn for that genre. But it could honestly be a tie.



Action Platformer
SAT - Shinobi X, MMX4, Castlevania SOTN if you wanna count it; SNES - MegaMan X,

I would add these for SAT: Assault Suit Leynos 2, Elevator Action Returns, Silhouette Mirage, Mega Man 8, EWJ2, Ghouls 'n Ghosts 1-2 (Capcom collection, less slowdown in Super than on SNES), Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru and maybe MMX3. But SNES also has MMX2-3, Cybernator, Actraiser, Super Castlevania IV, Goemon 1-3, Super Turrican 1-2, Super Star Wars series, Skyblazer, Sparkster, Metal Warriors, Blackthorne and more. So I'm not sure. :)

Wow great titles named thanks, yes I gave SNES > Saturn in that genre as well. I'd rather play Castlevania SOTN more than Castlevania 4 or MegaManX4 or Shinobi X more than Metroid but ok.



Beat 'em up
SAT - Nekketsu Oyako, Guardian Heroes, Die Hard Arcade, Tenchi O Kurau II, Fighting Force (unreleased); SNES - FF 1, FF1.5, FF3, Rival Turf, Turtles In Time,

There's also the Dungeons & Dragons collection for SAT, and Ninja Warriors for SNES. But I haven't played through most of these, only TiT, Die Hard, Ninja Warriors and FF3, so I can't say for sure.

And I believe I gave that genre to SNES, so that is like only 3 or 4 genres out of 10 that is better than Saturn. I'd rather play Guardian Heroes more but ok.



Puzzle - Unsure as I said since both have some great games, but SNES probably has a few more good ones.

I won't debate that too much.

Judging from everything I typed in post 86, Saturn still edges out SNES imo.

Alianger
01-20-2018, 04:33 AM
@Vector: Sure. Well, we can analyze the two in many ways but most people will still pick SNES just for Zelda, Mario and Metroid pretty much and find the arcade action games too hard.

There were still a bunch of great games made for the Saturn for us to enjoy, so it doesn't matter too much in the end. Unless you're completely against emulation, then you're kinda screwed hehe.

Vector
01-20-2018, 04:40 AM
Ha I love my Fusion for SMS, Genesis, SCD and 32X games but I love my real genesis model 1 va2 and va3 hooked up to my 80s Poineer Stereo systems too. I'm sure other Genesis emulators are better than Fusion, but it looks great to me and the ability to play 4 different Sega systems is a plus for me. For Saturn and DC to me, I always choose hardware. I have an iCore5 or iCore7 computer and I doubt Saturn or DC Emulation would run as good as Fusion does. Although my Windows 10 now is giving me crappy errors that Windows 7 or XP never did with Fusion, like red screen of death for certain roms when I patch them (Golden Axe.md) that worked before (although Thief hooked me up Big Time thanks bro), constantly having to plug in and re plug my Saturn usb controller and redoing the config when before I never had to and other weird errors like it just crashing and Fusion window magically disappearing when playing a game ha but overall I still love Fusion and I don't have all the Genesis Add Ons so it helps. I guess it doesn't matter even if I go out and buy a iCore9 because the Saturn and DC software emulation (emulators) are not up to par, not finished or not even updated in some time correct?

Team Andromeda
01-20-2018, 04:43 AM
and X-Men: Children of the Atom on the Saturn had horrible slowdown as well. I traded both of those titles in for something better, because they weren't all that great.



I'm sorry, but I don't know what XMen COTA you played, but there was next to no slowdown in the NTSC Japan version on the Saturn and totally and utterly blew away any 2D fighting game on the MD or Snes and with the Saturn it marked the era of SEGA Japan mandating that the AM Teams their selfs port their Arcade games to the home, it was a marked change for AM#2. AM#3 and also the era of not just an Arcade experience the home, but Arcade perfect too.
No more ports of shooters with loads of content missing and tons of slowdown, but all but Arcade perfect versions of the shooters from the masters that were RAIZING and Toplan. Like the MD or Snes could ever handle a Arcade perfect version of Battle Gaggera or Batsugun, they could never handle perfect ports of the R-Type, Hellfire or the like

Team Andromeda
01-20-2018, 04:46 AM
@Vector: Sure. Well, we can analyze the two in many ways but most people will still pick SNES just for Zelda, Mario and Metroid pretty much and find the arcade action games too hard.


And those people will pick the Snes over the MD for those games too, but many here like to call Mario and Zedla rubbish.

nissling
01-20-2018, 06:07 AM
I guess Snatcher is a ARPG right

It's a visual novel, more or less. SD Snatcher could be considered an RPG though.

Vector
01-20-2018, 06:24 AM
It's a visual novel, more or less. SD Snatcher could be considered an RPG though.

Ok cool thank you. I also do not know where to put Guardian Heroes, in Beat Em Ups or ARPG genre.

This Saturn thing is like a splinter in my mind, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4zICmyuNvs its like when people 99% of the time say the Sega CD was a failure yet it was the best Add On for a system until the Kinect correct?

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?32880-Mega-CD-Sega-CD-system-worldwide-sales-figures
https://www.vice.com/sv/article/gqmj3b/ill-never-love-a-console-like-i-loved-the-mega-cd-758
https://www.gamespot.com/forums/games-discussion-1000000/do-you-consider-the-sega-cd-a-success-or-a-failure-27404186/?page=1#js-message-324538793

DrunkenHigh
01-20-2018, 07:57 AM
So could I.



What else, what else...



And? I could play vcds in the USA in 1996 and SNES couldn't. The add on chips in SNES games made them more expensive. Both had add ons.



Where is the TF vcd I was specifically talking about, I thought it wasn't rare um did you find it yet? Did you ever watch that vcd to know whether it is near dvd quality or not? If not, why are you making claims that or any vcd is nowhere near dvd quality then? Would you like me to send you the vcd for free to see for yourself? MPEG-1 was brought up in half of the links I posted.

"DGrob wrote on 8/29/2003, 12:58 PM
Burning your VCD in Nero you might be "transcoding" a mpeg1 file of a mpeg1 file. Try rendering to *.avi and routing through Nero for a VCD.
Jide,

I agree with what DGrob said. Rendering as AVI should prevent Nero from recompressing MPEG-1 to MPEG-1 if indeed that is what is happening."

Even giving link to a mpeg1 program called vcdeasy inside my link.

Other site, even had charts.

"Limitations of VCD (MPEG1)

Low resolution: 352 x 240 (NTSC)
CBR (Constant Bit Rate): 1150 Kbps video
SVCD (MPEG2) drawbacks:
More computer power to decode
Less compatible with DVD players

Overcoming VCD Limitations

Higher resolution: 720 x 480 (NTSC)
Same as DV (digital camcorders)
Same as DVD
VBR (Variable Bit Rate) encoding
Minimum: 300 Kbps (compatibility)
Maximum: 2500 Kbps (compatibility)"



Yet you have negated nothing I said so far.

You said the Transformers movie was rare, not the vcd. Nobody owned a vcd add-on in NA because IT WASN'T AVAILABLE HERE. NEITHER WERE VCDS.

You're really going to compare an expensive video card that had to be imported, along with the vcds themselves to Super NES games that were readily available? They weren't add-ons, you bought the game with the chip already inside. Just like any other normal game. Most games were expensive back then. I could show you some old EB advertisements with most games ranging from $65 and up. You're comparing movies to videogames and not making any sense whatsoever. A single movie from 1986 at that.

Send it to me. A vcd, not a burnt copy on DVD. You're saying a lone vcd has magical qualities all fitting on a single disc.

The game comparisons don't make sense. The games you're picking to make the comparisons don't make sense. It's too much to respond to all of it.

Vector
01-20-2018, 08:13 AM
You said the Transformers movie was rare, not the vcd.

Let me see. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?33000-Saturn-gt-SNES&p=802378&viewfull=1#post802378


Vector

heck I remember watching a rare TransformersTM1986 movie on 1 vcd that looked near DVD quality on Saturn. (When I compared them years later). https://ibb.co/eEarYb

And again. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?33000-Saturn-gt-SNES&p=802385&viewfull=1#post802385


Vector


The Transformers movie is not rare.

The one I have pictured is, it is on just 1 vcd instead of 2 like they usually were and the quality is outstanding. Do me a favor and show me that exact vcd all over the internet since it isn't rare. I'll wait. Here you go https://ibb.co/eEarYb
https://image.ibb.co/iLVfRw/tfstape_6.jpg

It does make sense to it bring up because the Saturn could play them (almost all vcd formats...and I loved watching movies on my Saturn) and SNES couldn't. Also the Netlink wasn't popular overall but was cool for searching web or dialed up to play games with others (and still do) so how does that negate anything I said? If you want I can burn you a copy of the vcd and you can check (if I can find it and it doesn't have disc rot damn I bought it like 15 years ago ha), sound cool? If you got a dvd player you can put the vcd I'm sending you vs all the TF1986 vcds and 20th Ann dvd and you can compare for yourself. Or if anybody else is interested PM me.



And yet again. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?33000-Saturn-gt-SNES&p=802417&viewfull=1#post802417


Vector
What else, what else...


I don't even know where to start here. The Saturn needed some expensive add-on to play vcds that wasn't even available in NA.

And? I could play vcds in the USA in 1996 and SNES couldn't. The add on chips in SNES games made them more expensive. Both had add ons.


I have several import Shaw Bros vcds. They're not DVD quality, there's artifacting. Transformers didn't use some magical compression technique to get DVD quality. Those links have nothing to do with how mpeg-1 compression works.

Where is the TF vcd I was specifically talking about, I thought it wasn't rare um did you find it yet? Did you ever watch that vcd to know whether it is near dvd quality or not? If not, why are you making claims that or any vcd is nowhere near dvd quality then? Would you like me to send you the vcd for free to see for yourself?

So clearly I mentioned the specific TFTM1986 vcd I bought 15 years ago off ebay in every post, not TFTM1986 in general or the other TFTM1986 vcd releases (which are on 2 discs). It seems you interrupted it wrong.


Nobody owned a vcd add-on in NA because IT WASN'T AVAILABLE HERE. NEITHER WERE VCDS.

So you are going to tell me I didn't own a vcd card in my Saturn or watch vcds on it in the 90s along with other people? Ha. Ok.


You're really going to compare an expensive video card that had to be imported, along with the vcds themselves to Super NES games that were readily available? You're comparing movies to videogames and not making any sense whatsoever. A single movie from 1986 at that.

First you said there was no reason for me to bring up vcds, and I explained the Saturn is capable of watching vcd movies and it improves some games and SNES can't use vcd hence it was a Saturn advantage I was typing over SNES so clearly there was a reason to bring it up. Then you said, The Saturn needed some expensive add-on to play vcds" well guess what aren't the extra chips in SNES games add ons too? Didn't it increase the price of games to make them more expensive?


Send it to me. A vcd, not a burnt copy on DVD. You're saying a lone vcd has magical qualities all fitting on a single disc.

Ok I will look for it once I find it I'll burn a copy onto cd-r/vcd and I'll pm you, then pm me back your po box or whatever. If anybody else is interested too just pm me.


The game comparisons don't make sense. The games you're picking to make the comparisons don't make sense. It's too much to respond to all of it.

They actually do make sense, especially if you check post 86. Not only are they in the same genre but some are the same exact franchise.

DrunkenHigh
01-20-2018, 08:30 AM
I'm done here. It's 2018. Not 1997. Get over it. Try and actually play the games before making any comparisons. Japanese imports aren't a factor and shouldn't even be mentioned, EGM wasn't looking at $100 imports when rating systems. Credibility was lost 3 pages ago. Have fun.

Vector
01-20-2018, 08:40 AM
I'm done here. It's 2018. Not 1997. Get over it. Try and actually play the games before making any comparisons.

I have played almost all those games, but I'm not an rpg guy so why am I going to spend hours decided if I should A) Kiss the enemy B) Kill the enemy C) Talk to the enemy or D) Use magic on the enemy if I don't like those type of games I never played? I'll just give SNES the win for RPG > Saturn or have rpg fans here debate.

Tell me how post 86 list is wrong then. It is genre to genre, even franchise to franchise. Tell me how anything in post 86 is wrong actually.


Japanese imports aren't a factor and shouldn't even be mentioned, EGM wasn't looking at $100 imports when rating systems. Credibility was lost 3 pages ago. Have fun.

If you are going to rate a system, then having knowledge of it in a worldwide scale, meaning how the system is doing in all regions not just NA, with certain great games in a said region over another or having add ons (that make it better than other consoles from the last generation) should factor into your decision, should it not? I mean the Netlink did come out in NA and still should be factored in this NA EGM rating. The Saturn did well in Asia right, even having new games released in 1999 and where VCDs were huge so why was it not listed with the rest of the consoles in 1999 guide? Yes it is 2018, not 1997. So why are some people seemingly "pissed" after seeing how I broke things down sensibly with genre to genre and even franchise to franchise comparisons (again, see post 86 which fixes the typos I had from quickly just typing game names off the top of my head not really being organized) or showing how Saturn wins more genres over SNES taken emotionally? Is the truth hurting? If you leave thread you leave, your decision but once I find vcd I'll pm you.

Thief
01-20-2018, 09:17 AM
Final Fantasy III is better than Shining The Holy Ark. I've played through FFIII two times, as well as FFII. I've never finished FFVII and thought that STHA was a much better game. My favorite RPG of the 32-bit generation was probably Wild Arms on the PlayStation though.




Overall, yes, but I still think that Final Fantasy III is one of the best RPGs ever made. Platformers from the 16-bit generation were far better than what was offered on 32-bit though.



BS. I earned a membership on the fandom board, when I'd spent over $400 to become one of the 1st 50,000 North American gamers to own the Saturn. I own most of the must own North American games for the console, including Panzer Dragoon Saga, so it's not like I didn't give 100% of my devotion to the Saturn.




MKII was horrible on the Saturn, and X-Men: Children of the Atom on the Saturn had horrible slowdown as well. I traded both of those titles in for something better, because they weren't all that great.

The 16-bit generation also offered the arcade experience at home, and did a great job at it. You had titles like Strider, Golden Axe, Street Fighter II, NBA Jam, Mortal Kombat II, MERCS and Ghouls 'n Ghosts.

I've played FFIII at least 4 times, with 5th or so failed attempt being within a year. So no nostalgia waxing delusion on my part, FFIII does not hold up as well anymore. But alas, the entire internet is full of misleading nostalgia memories, so it's a battle I can't win. (Also, FF3 was on PS1 too, it was how I first played it and the other two SNES FF games)

Didn't talk about MKII Saturn and well aware of the horrible port (had it). Only used MKII 16-Bit to Arcade comparison because of how high a profile game that was, meaning it the one example that would resonate with most of us.

Spent $500 + Racing Wheel and became one of the first Saturn owners in Canada.

The Arcade experience gap was much bigger during 16-Bit era then 32-Bit era. It's part of the main reason Arcades starting dying with 32-Bit era, meanwhile they still flourished without a dent during 16-Bit era. Finally being able to play Daytona USA with a Racing Wheel was one of the most surreal experiences ever, as these experiences were previously Arcade exclusive.


Thief, regardless of how little gamers cared for 16-bit games in 1996, that doesn't change that the SNES continued to sell well and its games were best sellers. There was a market for a budget console with a huge back catalog. The evidence is in the SNES's sales: ~4 million consoles sold in NA from 1996 to 1998. That's approximately 20% of the SNES's lifetime sales in NA.

Still missing the point, we were going through a videogame revolution during the 32-bit era. Games like Mario 64 blew everyone's minds with how radically fresh an experience they were. Comparing 16-Bit to the next gen was like comparing apples to super crack. And we've had our fill of apples by that point.

You guys need to stop looking through today's eyes and time travel back to how things were back then through a gamers experience. Even when EGM and other mags rated new released SNES games back then, they were not impressed because they could not compare anymore. (Only one exception existed, and that was Tetris Attack, a game EGM was supposedly obsessed with)

sull56ivan2010
01-20-2018, 09:17 AM
I'm only going to say this one more time, Vector. If you can't even get past this biased crap, I'm finished with this topic.

Once again you're comparing a compilation in Sonic Jam to Mario World. It is completely unfair. Yes, they are Genesis games, but that don't make it right. Sega Rally and Mario Kart are two different animals. Comparing them is very stupid. Not even remotely the same. Nobody's played the Saturn version of Symphony. Not to mention it was developed poorly. Astal and Kirby are two different kinds of platformers, so it's unfair. Daytona is not a sprite game, and the comparison to F-Zero is bad. You can't compare Star Fox 2 to Panzer Dragoon 2. How many people have even played the former?

Just because you know of the VCD doesn't mean it should be a factor in comparing the Saturn to the SNES. Not everybody from America has any interest in it. Netlink was not a big deal. Sega Net was a big deal on the Dreamcast. People are "pissed" at you because you don't know how to compare things. There's no truth to this. You're angry that SNES was seen as a big value late in its run while people were concerned about the Saturn's future. I would, too. Same with the 64. Nothing could beat the PlayStation.

Thief
01-20-2018, 09:20 AM
Star Fox 2 is not even an on rails shooter. Star Fox 1 and the first two PD games are.

Vector
01-20-2018, 09:31 AM
Star Fox 2 is not even an on rails shooter. Star Fox 1 and the first two PD games are.

Ok. Thanks. I'll fix up post 86. What would be your guys list be then?


I'm only going to say this one more time, Vector. If you can't even get past this biased crap, I'm finished with this topic.

Once again you're comparing a compilation in Sonic Jam to Mario World.

Actually I added "or Mario All Stars" pages ago since that is a compilation too, isn't it fair to compare it to Sonic Jam then?


It is completely unfair. Yes, they are Genesis games, but that don't make it right. Sega Rally and Mario Kart are two different animals. Comparing them is very stupid. Not even remotely the same.

I'm not aware of any Saturn sprite racers to compare it too like I said numerous times and pages ago, same genre bro.


Nobody's played the Saturn version of Symphony. Not to mention it was developed poorly.

So nobody can d/l the iso and compare the 2 games for themselves? Ha. Ok. Castlevania vs Castlevania, ridiculous comparison. How many people played StarFox 2 in 90s or a decade later or in 2010 from rom d/l or until they bought a snes mini either? Wasn't that one of the appeals of the snes mini (which I'm using for this list)? Exactly. ;)


Astal and Kirby are two different kinds of platformers, so it's unfair.

Fair enough I typed genres and even their sub genres though.


Daytona is not a sprite game, and the comparison to F-Zero is bad.

Once again, I'm not aware of any Saturn sprite racers to compare it too like I said numerous times and pages ago.



You can't compare Star Fox 2 to Panzer Dragoon 2. How many people have even played the former?

Ok. But again, how many people played Star Fox 2 before it was uploaded on internet? PD2 was released and sold in 90s LOL. Moving on...


Just because you know of the VCD doesn't mean it should be a factor in comparing the Saturn to the SNES. Not everybody from America has any interest in it. Netlink was not a big deal. Sega Net was a big deal on the Dreamcast. People are "pissed" at you because you don't know how to compare things.

No you are right comparing things of same genre to see who wins that genre like Metal Slug vs Contra 3 or 2 of the 2D franchise platformer compilations or exact franchises of Megaman vs Megaman or even same game SFA2 to SFA2 or etc is ridiculous. :cool:



There's no truth to this. You're angry that SNES was seen as a big value late in its run while people were concerned about the Saturn's future. I would, too. Same with the 64. Nothing could beat the PlayStation.

History has told us that =)

Gryson
01-20-2018, 09:36 AM
Still missing the point, we were going through a videogame revolution during the 32-bit era. Games like Mario 64 blew everyone's minds with how radically fresh an experience they were. Comparing 16-Bit to the next gen was like comparing apples to super crack. And we've had our fill of apples by that point.

You guys need to stop looking through today's eyes and time travel back to how things were back then through a gamers experience. Even when EGM and other mags rated new released SNES games back then, they were not impressed because they could not compare anymore. (Only one exception existed, and that was Tetris Attack, a game EGM was supposedly obsessed with)

I don't know what point you're trying to make in relation to this thread.

The question is why did EGM give the SNES a higher score than the Saturn in the 1996 Buyer's Guide. My answer is that the SNES was still selling very well at a budget price and still had big titles coming out as well as a huge back catalog, whereas Saturn sales were stagnant, the price was higher, and the upcoming release list was slim. EGM's first and foremost recommendation was for the PlayStation, and they also rated the SNES high for whoever that might appeal to.

Who's denying that most people wanted to play 32-bit games? That was obviously the case given how well the PlayStation and N64 sold, and in turn how well EGM rated those consoles and their games. I really don't know what you're trying to get at (maybe responding to a post I missed?).

sull56ivan2010
01-20-2018, 09:37 AM
I give up. You want to wallow in your own crap, Vec, go right ahead. You don't want to listen to anybody.

Vector
01-20-2018, 09:40 AM
I'm listening and adjusting my list according to everyones feedback. I have listened to everybody in this thread even when they keep failing to read my text properly even when it is bolded and repeated. It is my fault nobody knows any sprite racing games to compare to F-Zero or Mario cart too? At least I'm putting things genre to genre, even sub genre and even game vs game in same franchise, yet even that seems to be unfair :daze:. What is next I can't compare Shinobi X to Metroid because Shinobi had digital sprites and Metriod (2d/action platformer/side scrollers) didn't? I'm doing my best to compare the snes mini "big chunk of classics" to Saturn games, when just by themselves the Saturn fighting game classics engulf the entire snes mini library and then some.

Thief
01-20-2018, 09:44 AM
I don't know what point you're trying to make in relation to this thread.

The question is why did EGM give the SNES a higher score than the Saturn in the 1996 Buyer's Guide. My answer is that the SNES was still selling very well at a budget price and still had big titles coming out as well as a huge back catalog, whereas Saturn sales were stagnant, the price was higher, and the upcoming release list was slim. EGM's first and foremost recommendation was for the PlayStation, and they also rated the SNES high for whoever that might appeal to.

Who's denying that most people wanted to play 32-bit games? That was obviously the case given how well the PlayStation and N64 sold, and in turn how well EGM rated those consoles and their games. I really don't know what you're trying to get at (maybe responding to a post I missed?).

The point is the EGM bias. It was clear as day to me back then as it is today. Back catalog means nothing, most sales of anything occur within the first week or so. New things is what sells, old is only for nostalgia waxing and SNES wasn't old enough for nostalgia yet. Even the PS1 didn't have the back catalog of SNES and it didn't matter.

Gryson
01-20-2018, 09:49 AM
The point is the EGM bias. It was clear as day to me back then as it is today. Back catalog means nothing, most sales of anything occur within the first week or so. New things is what sells, old is only for nostalgia waxing and SNES wasn't old enough for nostalgia yet. Even the PS1 didn't have the back catalog of SNES and it didn't matter.

So how do you account for the SNES's continued strong sales into 1998?

Vector
01-20-2018, 10:20 AM
So how do you account for the SNES's continued strong sales into 1998?

Who told you that info, Nintendo. No, they don't lie. Do you have a Nintendo chart vs Indie chart of said system, year and game sales?

Gryson
01-20-2018, 10:26 AM
Nintendo console sales are well documented:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/nintendo-historical-shipment-data-1983-present.701305/

This data is in agreement with numbers reported back in the day by Japanese gaming magazines.

Vector
01-20-2018, 10:33 AM
Nintendo console sales are well documented:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/nintendo-historical-shipment-data-1983-present.701305/

This data is in agreement with numbers reported back in the day by Japanese gaming magazines.

Thank you very much. Who is to say the Japan Magazines didn't just copy and paste Nintendos sheet but I digress. Here are questions, on that chart didn't the NES sell as much as SNES in 1998-1999, 50,000 in Japan? How much did the Genesis and Saturn sell from April 1997 - March 1998, and were all the Genesis variants added to Genesis units sold? So even in 1998 and 1999 the SNES sold 100,000 - 1.4 mil in N.A. That is B.S. In 1999 or so the redesigned PSone was released with some versions even having lcd screen and were cheap. No way more people bought a $ 70 - $90 SNES rather than that in 1999 or 2000 or USA bought 900,000 SNES and Canada bought 500,000 SNES or whatever while you could get the bigger bulkier PS1 in stores used for under $50 when the PS1 had classics from 1995 until then. Sorry, not believing it.

Thief
01-20-2018, 10:39 AM
So how do you account for the SNES's continued strong sales into 1998?

One of my fave things about the Buyers Guides during 32-Bit era were the top 10 for each console. Also why my fave EGM issues were 100 & 150 for their top 100 and 150 lists. Even though I had the next gen consoles, I was still compelled to try to round out my 16-bit library. One game and game series that always came at the top of the lists were the Castlevania series, namely SCIV, which they raved as the best ever with the best graphics ever. They really hyped me up for it so when seen it in a used game store one day, I snatched it.

Unfortunately playing through that game was one of the most boring experiences ever and if it wasn't for the password system for frequent daily breaks and the promise of amazing graphics I never would have beat it. It was standard 2D scroller that I've experienced plenty during 16-Bit era, but kept playing in hopes that the experience and graphics would blow me away. I didn't get it, I though that game had some of the most horrid outdated almost NES style graphics I've ever experienced, with the only exception being that gold treasury stage. Finally finished the game and came to conclusion that I missed this game's time to fully appreciate by a good couple of years. EGM was just waxing nostalgia.

Same thing happened with Bloodlines I had acquired after SCIV. But even to a greater extreme as I couldn't even play it past the second stage. Also bought DKC3 on release and couldn't force myself to play past world 3 or so. It just didn't make any sense back during the 32-Bit era to play these older been there done that games over the fresh experiences currently being pumped out. Wasn't until the 16-Bit era was old enough to be nostalgic to finally be able and appreciate other 16-Bit games.

So while I contributed to DKC3 sales, don't mean I played them or thought they were better then what was offered on 32-Bit consoles back in December of 1996.

Gryson
01-20-2018, 11:11 AM
Thank you very much. Here are questions, on that chart didn't the NES sell as much as SNES in 1998-1999, 50,000 in Japan? How much did the Genesis and Saturn sell from April 1997 - March 1998, and were all the Genesis variants added to Genesis units sold? So even in 1998 and 1999 the SNES sold 100,000 - 1.4 mil in N.A. That is B.S. In 1999 or so the redesigned PSone was released with some versions even having lcd screen and were cheaper than before. No way more people bought a SNES rather than that in 1999 or 2000 or USA bought 900,000 SNES and Canada bought 500,000 SNES or whatever. Sorry, not believing it.

I don't know what to tell you. Those are official sales numbers given to Nintendo shareholders. They are not made up. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you can dismiss them without any evidence. In fact, you might be a bit "biased" in your assessment ;)


One of my fave things about the Buyers Guides during 32-Bit era were the top 10 for each console. Also why my fave EGM issues were 100 & 150 for their top 100 and 150 lists. Even though I had the next gen consoles, I was still compelled to try to round out my 16-bit library. One game and game series that always came at the top of the lists were the Castlevania series, namely SCIV, which they raved as the best ever with the best graphics ever. They really hyped me up for it so when seen it in a used game store one day, I snatched it.

Unfortunately playing through that game was one of the most boring experiences ever and if it wasn't for the password system for frequent daily breaks and the promise of amazing graphics I never would have beat it. It was standard 2D scroller that I've experienced plenty during 16-Bit era, but kept playing in hopes that the experience and graphics would blow me away. I didn't get it, I though that game had some of the most horrid outdated almost NES style graphics I've ever experienced, with the only exception being that gold treasury stage. Finally finished the game and came to conclusion that I missed this game's time to fully appreciate by a good couple of years. EGM was just waxing nostalgia.

Same thing happened with Bloodlines I had acquired after SCIV. But even to a greater extreme as I couldn't even play it past the second stage. Also bought DKC3 on release and couldn't force myself to play past world 3 or so. It just didn't make any sense back during the 32-Bit era to play these older been there done that games over the fresh experiences currently being pumped out. Wasn't until the 16-Bit era was old enough to be nostalgic to finally be able and appreciate other 16-Bit games.

So while I contributed to DKC3 sales, don't mean I played them or thought they were better then what was offered on 32-Bit consoles back in December of 1996.

I was specifically referring to sales of SNES consoles in NA, as I said two pages back:


The evidence is in the SNES's sales: ~4 million consoles sold in NA from 1996 to 1998. That's approximately 20% of the SNES's lifetime sales in NA.

How do you account for that? Did 4 million people just buy SNES consoles and games by mistake for a few years, play them for 30 minutes, and throw them out? I think it's more likely that there was a specific market for a lower-priced, established console, regardless of what you and other gamers thought was better.

Vector
01-20-2018, 11:14 AM
Vector
Thank you very much. Who is to say the Japan Magazines didn't just copy and paste Nintendos sheet but I digress. Here are questions, on that chart didn't the NES sell as much as SNES in 1998-1999, 50,000 in Japan? How much did the Genesis and Saturn sell from April 1997 - March 1998, and were all the Genesis variants added to Genesis units sold? So even in 1998 and 1999 the SNES sold 100,000 - 1.4 mil in N.A. That is B.S. In 1999 or so the redesigned PSone was released with some versions even having lcd screen and were cheap. No way more people bought a $ 70 - $90 SNES rather than that in 1999 or 2000 or USA bought 900,000 SNES and Canada bought 500,000 SNES or whatever while you could get the bigger bulkier PS1 in stores used for under $50 when the PS1 had classics from 1995 until then. Sorry, not believing it. I don't know what to tell you. Those are official sales numbers given to Nintendo shareholders. They are not made up. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you can dismiss them without any evidence. In fact, you might be a bit "biased" in your assessment ;)

Ha quite true, mind answering my other questions though?

Vector
01-20-2018, 11:20 AM
you account for that? Did 4 million people just buy SNES consoles and games by mistake for a few years, play them for 30 minutes, and throw them out? I think it's more likely that there was a specific market for a lower-priced, established console, regardless of what you and other gamers thought was better.

Could you prove the Genesis sold less from said period when they weren't counting the variants of Genesis like Nomad, MultiMega etc in Genesis units sold? Maybe Genesis sold 5 million in that time =)

Thief
01-20-2018, 11:34 AM
I don't know what to tell you. Those are official sales numbers given to Nintendo shareholders. They are not made up. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you can dismiss them without any evidence. In fact, you might be a bit "biased" in your assessment ;)



I was specifically referring to sales of SNES consoles in NA, as I said two pages back:



How do you account for that? Did 4 million people just buy SNES consoles and games by mistake for a few years, play them for 30 minutes, and throw them out? I think it's more likely that there was a specific market for a lower-priced, established console, regardless of what you and other gamers thought was better.

I'm arguing if gamers had the choice between another of the three 32-Bit next gen consoles or an SNES for free, the answer would unanimously be another 32-Bit console. And if it's unanimous...

Gryson
01-20-2018, 11:45 AM
Thank you very much. Who is to say the Japan Magazines didn't just copy and paste Nintendos sheet but I digress. Here are questions, on that chart didn't the NES sell as much as SNES in 1998-1999, 50,000 in Japan? How much did the Genesis and Saturn sell from April 1997 - March 1998, and were all the Genesis variants added to Genesis units sold? So even in 1998 and 1999 the SNES sold 100,000 - 1.4 mil in N.A. That is B.S. In 1999 or so the redesigned PSone was released with some versions even having lcd screen and were cheap. No way more people bought a $ 70 - $90 SNES rather than that in 1999 or 2000 or USA bought 900,000 SNES and Canada bought 500,000 SNES or whatever while you could get the bigger bulkier PS1 in stores used for under $50 when the PS1 had classics from 1995 until then. Sorry, not believing it.


Ha quite true, mind answering my other questions though?


Could you prove the Genesis sold less from said period when they weren't counting the variants of Genesis like Nomad, MultiMega etc in Genesis units sold? Maybe Genesis sold 5 million in that time =)

It's certainly possible that console manufacturers lie about sales. Typically this occurs when a marketing executive is quoted as saying: "We expect to reach 2 million sales with the boost from the holiday season" and they actually only sell 1 million. Always doubt that kind of line. However, you're going to be very hard pressed to convince anybody that a publicly traded company is lying to its shareholders about reported sales (and therefore revenue/profit).

Genesis sales are a bit more of a mystery because Sega didn't report them like Nintendo did. The best evidence comes from Japanese magazines. You can browse some here: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/retro-sales-age-thread.981407/

However, those magazines stopped reporting on Genesis sales in 1995, since that's when Sega dropped support to focus on the Saturn. So it's hard to say how many units sold in the next three years. In 1998, of course, Majesco released the Genesis 3.

Here's a quote from an article dated March 2, 1998 on Majesco's deal to manufacture the Genesis 3:


Sega was on verge of dropping one-time market leading Genesis before MSI stepped in, Sutton said. SOA sold about 400,000 16-bit consoles in N. America last year, based on estimates extrapolated front NPD Group's Toy Retail Statistical Tracking Service. That compares with just over one million Super Nintendo Entertainment Systems (SNES) sold by Nintendo of America (NOA). "They weren't manufacturing any more so there was actually a shortage of Genesis systems last year," Sutton said.

https://archive.is/20120709034422/http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3169/is_n9_v38/ai_20456851/?tag=content;col1#selection-643.0-643.486

So "about" 400,000 Genesis consoles sold in 1997, vs more than 1 million SNES consoles as reported by NPD (which, by the way, matches the official Nintendo numbers).

Gryson
01-20-2018, 11:46 AM
I'm arguing if gamers had the choice between another of the three 32-Bit next gen consoles or an SNES for free, the answer would unanimously be another 32-Bit console. And if it's unanimous...

So why did 4 million people decide to buy the SNES after the PlayStation and Saturn were released?

Vector
01-20-2018, 11:59 AM
It's certainly possible that console manufacturers lie about sales. Typically this occurs when a marketing executive is quoted as saying: "We expect to reach 2 million sales with the boost from the holiday season" and they actually only sell 1 million. Always doubt that kind of line. However, you're going to be very hard pressed to convince anybody that a publicly traded company is lying to its shareholders about reported sales (and therefore revenue/profit).

Genesis sales are a bit more of a mystery because Sega didn't report them like Nintendo did. The best evidence comes from Japanese magazines. You can browse some here: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/retro-sales-age-thread.981407/

However, those magazines stopped reporting on Genesis sales in 1995, since that's when Sega dropped support to focus on the Saturn. So it's hard to say how many units sold in the next three years. In 1998, of course, Majesco released the Genesis 3.

Here's a quote from an article dated March 2, 1998 on Majesco's deal to manufacture the Genesis 3:



https://archive.is/20120709034422/http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3169/is_n9_v38/ai_20456851/?tag=content;col1#selection-643.0-643.486

So "about" 400,000 Genesis consoles sold in 1997, vs more than 1 million SNES consoles as reported by NPD (which, by the way, matches the official Nintendo numbers).

Thank you brother, that post put me in my place ha. It is a shame that the Genesis numbers are a mystery, it could have sold as much as SNES and we will never know, about 50 million each. Now I know why thy didn't count variants too because they stopped counted the actual Genesis after years. Wooonk wooon wooo

Thief
01-20-2018, 12:06 PM
So why did 4 million people decide to buy the SNES after the PlayStation and Saturn were released?

Mommies don't always spring for $500 toys we really want; already had enough or all current gen consoles and wanted more; collectors who do more collecting then playing; EGM Buyers Guide propaganda to buy more SNES; Nintendo didn't have the N64 to advertise for so they could spend all that advertising on SNES instead; etc.

Gryson
01-20-2018, 12:24 PM
Mommies don't always spring for $500 toys we really want; already had enough or all current gen consoles and wanted more; collectors who do more collecting then playing;

All of those are important factors that influence console sales. You're damn right moms are going to choose the budget console option if they think they can get away with it. So what's wrong with EGM catering to that target consumer in their Buyer's Guide? Anybody who was really into games at that time would have dismissed the SNES outright in favor of a 32-bit option. I don't think anybody here is claiming that informed gamers were looking at the 1997 Buyer's Guide and thinking, "Oh, gee, I guess I should buy an SNES over a PlayStation since it got good reviews." That doesn't mean EGM cannot rate a previous generation console highly if it still has value to a particular consumer.


Nintendo didn't have the N64 to advertise for so they could spend all that advertising on SNES instead; etc.

N64 was out in the 2nd half of 1996. Nintendo was potentially competing against itself for 2 years, but they probably realized those two markets are different (budget console buying moms vs. gamers).

Black_Tiger
01-20-2018, 12:29 PM
So why did 4 million people decide to buy the SNES after the PlayStation and Saturn were released?

Why wasn't the Intellivision discontinued until 1990? Why wasn't it reviewed in EGM's buyers guides until then?

Since the NES hit North America, Nintendo created more than a brand or product. Regardless of the legality or morality of their practices, the end result was a cult of consumers who were incapable of making informed decisions.

They didn't want certain types of games, technology, features, etc. They only wanted Nintendo. This includes both a couple generations of kids and their parents who didn't want their children exposed to pornographic content or murder/rape training software. "Nintendo" was safe to them and Nintendo made it clear how dangerous abything else was.

Having a strong base like that allowed Nintendo to push the limits of overall consumer confidence in North America by serving old or uncompetitive hardware for way longer than the market would normally tolerate. It took enough years of this and something like Nintendo 64 for publishers and consumers to finally break away from it.

But when you look at markets were Sega was stronger, the only difference was that Nintendo wasn't able to use methods outside of hardware and software to influence or manipulate the public and publishers.

Especially if you experienced all of this while it was happening, it was obvious why Nintendo could stick with the NES and SNES for half of the next generations and why we had to put up with primitive Gameboys for so long. EGM drinking the kool aide instead of providing less biased and informed reviews only stuck out like a sore thumb that much more.

We saw the same kind of thing with the Playstation 3. Although most magazines were guilty of believing the hype for far too long, Dave Halverson's were the worst. They kept insisting, often in the middle of game reviews, that Sony would unlock some kind of secret microcode or something and any day now we'd finally see games which were at least a full generation beyond Xbox 360 graphics.

Thief
01-20-2018, 12:38 PM
All of those are important factors that influence console sales. You're damn right moms are going to choose the budget console option if they think they can get away with it. So what's wrong with EGM catering to that target consumer in their Buyer's Guide? Anybody who was really into games at that time would have dismissed the SNES outright in favor of a 32-bit option. I don't think anybody here is claiming that informed gamers were looking at the 1997 Buyer's Guide and thinking, "Oh, gee, I guess I should buy an SNES over a PlayStation since it got good reviews." That doesn't mean EGM cannot rate a previous generation console highly if it still has value to a particular consumer.



N64 was out in the 2nd half of 1996. Nintendo was potentially competing against itself for 2 years, but they probably realized those two markets are different (budget console buying moms vs. gamers).

Still doesn't explain why the SNES should have been rated higher then Saturn. That's like rating a compact car mini higher then a sports car.

And N64 was released more like in 3/4 of 1996. Does SNES sales show how much sales slowed down after the N64 released too?

Thief
01-20-2018, 12:44 PM
Why wasn't the Intellivision discontinued until 1990? Why wasn't it reviewed in EGM's buyers guides until then?

Since the NES hit North America, Nintendo created more than a brand or product. Regardless of the legality or morality of their practices, the end result was a cult of consumers who were incapable of making informed decisions.

They didn't want certain types of games, technology, features, etc. They only wanted Nintendo. This includes both a couple generations of kids and their parents who didn't want their children exposed to pornographic content or murder/rape training software. "Nintendo" was safe to them and Nintendo made it clear how dangerous abything else was.

Having a strong base like that allowed Nintendo to push the limits of overall consumer confidence in North America by serving old or uncompetitive hardware for way longer than the market would normally tolerate. It took enough years of this and something like Nintendo 64 for publishers and consumers to finally break away from it.

But when you look at markets were Sega was stronger, the only difference was that Nintendo wasn't able to use methods outside of hardware and software to influence or manipulate the public and publishers.

Especially if you experienced all of this while it was happening, it was obvious why Nintendo could stick with the NES and SNES for half of the next generations and why we had to put up with primitive Gameboys for so long. EGM drinking the kool aide instead of providing less biased and informed reviews only stuck out like a sore thumb that much more.

We saw the same kind of thing with the Playstation 3. Although most magazines were guilty of believing the hype for far too long, Dave Halverson's were the worst. They kept insisting, often in the middle of game reviews, that Sony would unlock some kind of secret microcode or something and any day now we'd finally see games which were at least a full generation beyond Xbox 360 graphics.

Yes, the bias in EGM and other mags were out of this world.

Gryson
01-20-2018, 12:46 PM
Still doesn't explain why the SNES should have been rated higher then Saturn. That's like rating a compact car mini higher then a sports car.

Have you ever looked at a car buying guide? Do you think they rate all sports cars as good purchases just because they're sports cars? Again, they're not rating the technological level of the console, but rather the purchase value.


And N64 was released more like in 3/4 of 1996. Does SNES sales show how much sales slowed down after the N64 released too?

SNES sales drop slightly then but remain fairly steady (1 million+) until 1999.


Yes, the bias in EGM and other mags were out of this world.

How do you respond to the rather low ratings they gave the N64 after its release year, then?

gamevet
01-20-2018, 01:26 PM
EGM wasn't looking at imports at all. Vector certainly didn't get that.

Gryson
01-20-2018, 01:32 PM
Why wasn't the Intellivision discontinued until 1990? Why wasn't it reviewed in EGM's buyers guides until then?

Since the NES hit North America, Nintendo created more than a brand or product. Regardless of the legality or morality of their practices, the end result was a cult of consumers who were incapable of making informed decisions.

They didn't want certain types of games, technology, features, etc. They only wanted Nintendo. This includes both a couple generations of kids and their parents who didn't want their children exposed to pornographic content or murder/rape training software. "Nintendo" was safe to them and Nintendo made it clear how dangerous abything else was.

Having a strong base like that allowed Nintendo to push the limits of overall consumer confidence in North America by serving old or uncompetitive hardware for way longer than the market would normally tolerate. It took enough years of this and something like Nintendo 64 for publishers and consumers to finally break away from it.

But when you look at markets were Sega was stronger, the only difference was that Nintendo wasn't able to use methods outside of hardware and software to influence or manipulate the public and publishers.

Especially if you experienced all of this while it was happening, it was obvious why Nintendo could stick with the NES and SNES for half of the next generations and why we had to put up with primitive Gameboys for so long. EGM drinking the kool aide instead of providing less biased and informed reviews only stuck out like a sore thumb that much more.

We saw the same kind of thing with the Playstation 3. Although most magazines were guilty of believing the hype for far too long, Dave Halverson's were the worst. They kept insisting, often in the middle of game reviews, that Sony would unlock some kind of secret microcode or something and any day now we'd finally see games which were at least a full generation beyond Xbox 360 graphics.

I tend to agree with you. Nintendo definitely had a particular audience.

I would also say EGM's reviewers were definitely fans of the SNES (and the PlayStation), but I always felt like they justified their reviews pretty well. I might not agree with them, but I could understand them and never really thought they crossed the line into biased fanboyism. I guess that's open to interpretation.

I don't think this extended into other Nintendo products, though. They were fairly negative about the Game Boy, even during its late-90s mega-comeback (pokemon).

And I completely agree with their thoughts on the Saturn. I'd say they reflect exactly what I thought at the time: some good games, but its future was bleak, and the PlayStation was just looking that great.

gamevet
01-20-2018, 01:50 PM
Gamevet, SFA2 on Saturn was the best 2D fighting game on any console for years I'd say, destroying any 16 bit and even 32 bit rival. Actually the Saturn 2D and 3D fighters are unmatched especially in that era or maybe all time tbh.

Again, this debate seems to get easier and easier for me. And it seems people are putting more thought in now or at least considering the possibility the Saturn might overall be better than SNES more than ever before. Perhaps at first many of you laughed at the thread title and 2 points of this thread, but now it is perhaps becoming more clear. You can still have your opinions that EGM had no bias 2 out of those 3 years (to be fair 1998 SNES was labeled budget system) or SNES is a better console of course. Again, I'm not into rpgs. Also, sorry for my minor typos earlier.

Of course Street Fighter Alpha 2 is an outstanding 2D fighter on the Saturn, and you could say that Ultimate MK3 is as well, but that has nothing to do with my point. My point was that there were a lot of good arcade ports on the 16-bit consoles, and that those consoles did a fine job of porting the arcade games of their time, while the 32-bit machines did a fine job of porting the arcade games of their generation. Still, for every excellent arcade port on the Saturn, there's also a dud, like Virtua Racing for Sega Rally, MKII for Ultimate MK3, and X-Men:COTA for Street Fighter Alpha 2.

I love me some Saturn, but I do feel that you are over-rating some titles for it, while under-rating some SNES games that are considered the greatest games of all-time.


I've played FFIII at least 4 times, with 5th or so failed attempt being within a year. So no nostalgia waxing delusion on my part, FFIII does not hold up as well anymore. But alas, the entire internet is full of misleading nostalgia memories, so it's a battle I can't win. (Also, FF3 was on PS1 too, it was how I first played it and the other two SNES FF games)

FFIII has aged just fine. I'd say it has aged much better the FFVII.


Spent $500 + Racing Wheel and became one of the first Saturn owners in Canada.

I honestly don't believe that you were old enough to have $500 to spend. I'm pretty sure that you once had your age posted and that you are under 40 years old.



The Arcade experience gap was much bigger during 16-Bit era then 32-Bit era. It's part of the main reason Arcades starting dying with 32-Bit era, meanwhile they still flourished without a dent during 16-Bit era. Finally being able to play Daytona USA with a Racing Wheel was one of the most surreal experiences ever, as these experiences were previously Arcade exclusive.

Wrong!

Arcades were dying out in the 90s. The Street Fighter II craze kept if going for a bit longer and allowed other arcade games to flourish. There were a lot more arcade games to choose from in the late 80s and early 90s, then there were in the latter half of the 90s. There are actually more arcade ports on the 16-bit consoles, than their are on the 32-bit machines.

Thief
01-20-2018, 02:04 PM
Have you ever looked at a car buying guide? Do you think they rate all sports cars as good purchases just because they're sports cars? Again, they're not rating the technological level of the console, but rather the purchase value.



SNES sales drop slightly then but remain fairly steady (1 million+) until 1999.



How do you respond to the rather low ratings they gave the N64 after its release year, then?

Well how does this purchase value make sense to you back in those days; Not once in those buyers guide did the Saturn outscore the SNES, but neither did it once outscore the inferior sports car N64 (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?25548-EGM-Buyers-Guide-System-Reviews-and-Game-Reviews-1989-to-2001).

Vector
01-20-2018, 02:10 PM
Of course Street Fighter Alpha 2 is an outstanding 2D fighter on the Saturn, and you could say that Ultimate MK3 is as well, but that has nothing to do with my point. My point was that there were a lot of good arcade ports on the 16-bit consoles, and that those consoles did a fine job of porting the arcade games of their time, while the 32-bit machines did a fine job of porting the arcade games of their generation. Still, for every excellent arcade port on the Saturn, there's also a dud, like Virtua Racing for Sega Rally, MKII for Ultimate MK3, and X-Men:COTA for Street Fighter Alpha 2.

I love me some Saturn, but I do feel that you are over-rating some titles for it, while under-rating some SNES games that are considered the greatest games of all-time.

I will actually agree with you to an extent but let me ask you something. Just because many people think a game is classic does that mean I have to like it when I don't like it and can I disagree its classic? For instance super punch out isn't classic or earthbound since it wasn't hyped until YouTube and since I'm not into rpg and most of the snes mini list or greatest snes game lists are rpg or Kirby games a game nobody played really such as starfox2 a bunch of sprite racers not on Saturn because it had great polygon racers and inferior ports of better saturn versions like sf2 or sfa2 how am I really wrong . Also I thought e.g.m. and other mags knew and showcased upcoming Japan games like sf2 proto because next year that means well get it as most time genesis or Saturn titles came out there first. Didnt they have dedicated sections or articles for that. Yes I could be wrong.

"And I completely agree with their thoughts on the Saturn. I'd say they reflect exactly what I thought at the time: some good games, but its future was bleak, and the PlayStation was just looking that great."

Interesting I could say same thing for snes in place of your Saturn wording.

Thief
01-20-2018, 02:13 PM
I tend to agree with you. Nintendo definitely had a particular audience.

I would also say EGM's reviewers were definitely fans of the SNES (and the PlayStation), but I always felt like they justified their reviews pretty well. I might not agree with them, but I could understand them and never really thought they crossed the line into biased fanboyism. I guess that's open to interpretation.

I don't think this extended into other Nintendo products, though. They were fairly negative about the Game Boy, even during its late-90s mega-comeback (pokemon).

And I completely agree with their thoughts on the Saturn. I'd say they reflect exactly what I thought at the time: some good games, but its future was bleak, and the PlayStation was just looking that great.

Because it's like comparing a car to a donkey. Here's hoping Nintendo GameBoy super fan MrMatthews don't see this. If so, voices in my head made me say it.

gamevet
01-20-2018, 02:18 PM
I will actually agree with you to an extent but let me ask you something. Just because many people think a game is classic does that mean I have to like it when I don't like it and can I disagree its classic? For instance super punch out isn't classic or earthbound since it wasn't hyped until YouTube and since I'm not into rpg and most of the snes mini list or greatest snes game lists are rpg or Kirby games a game nobody played really such as starfox2 a bunch of sprite racers not on Saturn because it had great polygon racers and inferior ports of better saturn versions like sf2 or sfa2 how am I really wrong . also I thought e.g. and other mags knew and showcased upcoming Japan games like sf2 proto because next year that means well get it as most time genesis or Saturn titles came out there first. Didnt they have dedicated sections or articles for that. Yes I could be wrong.

I'll put it this way. I am a bigger fan of the Saturn than I am of the SNES, but I'd have to be a pretty obtuse fanboy to believe that the Saturn had a superior overall library to the SNES.

Who cares about Super Punchout!!! It's an inferior game to the NES and arcade games. When I think of SNES classics, I'm thinking of titles like Super Metroid, Castlevania IV, TMNTT: Turtles in Time, Star Fox, Pilot Wings, R-Type III and Final Fantasy III.

Vector
01-20-2018, 02:22 PM
Well at least you are halfway I'm my side. I will try to improve my list but the genres are listed in post 86 and Saturn won more genres.

gamevet
01-20-2018, 02:25 PM
I don't agree with your silly list.

And it's "Halfway on your side."

Thief
01-20-2018, 02:33 PM
Don't think these lists matter that much, as going from my memories of that era, I was more into experiencing new things. And even when it was an extension of the old, like our fave IP making transition to next gen, it was still new enough or greatly updated. That's what the massive appeal of that gen was.

I also see that gen as a combination of all things N64/Saturn/PS1. Just had to have them all in my opinion.

Vector
01-20-2018, 02:44 PM
"Who cares about Super Punchout!!! It's an inferior game to the NES and arcade games. "

Exactly what I said why is it on snes mini?

Also I said Saturn won more genres listed in post 86 not you should agree with my silly 1 to 21 list.

"When I think of SNES classics, I'm thinking of titles like Super Metroid" ok guess that its better than shinobi x maybe

, Castlevania IV um castlevania sotn better on Saturn but ok

, TMNTT: Turtles in Time, guardian heroes is better

Star Fox doesn't beat panzerdragoon

, Pilot Wings ok that game reminds me of a tech demo

, R-Type III can't hold a stick to radiant silver gun

and Final Fantasy III beaten by fs3 as thief says.

See how easy that was? I'm typing the best I can from my phone btw

Vector
01-20-2018, 03:10 PM
Imo the n64 was worthless besides mario64 and golden eye. Saturn over n64 too

Also the snes library lacks a lot of genres better than Saturn like fps 3d games fighters yawn list goes on and on the snes doesn't even have better racers metal slug crushes contra3 plus what I mentioned in above post man its not even a contest

Thief
01-20-2018, 03:39 PM
^ Though had all 3 consoles, the N64 was easily the least played/replayed and with the most few games. Can't imagine anyone else who had all 3 consoles not come to the same conclusion.

If adding SNES and Genesis to that era, they were even less played. So speaking of personal value, the Saturn and PS1 trumped all during that era. Wasn't even a contest. You didn't even have to buy games, just save up for a console instead of buying games and mostly rent and borrow from friends/neighbors instead if poor.

gamevet
01-20-2018, 04:45 PM
"Who cares about Super Punchout!!! It's an inferior game to the NES and arcade games. "

Exactly what I said why is it on snes mini?

I'm not reading all of your posts.

It's on the Mini, because Nintendo doesn't have to pay to licence the game. Still, it's better than the garbage boxing game on the Saturn.


Also I said Saturn won more genres listed in post 86 not you should agree with my silly 1 to 21 list.

The list is still really stupid. I can list genres that the Saturn doesn't even cover and make it a totally lopsided comparison.


"When I think of SNES classics, I'm thinking of titles like Super Metroid" ok guess that its better than shinobi x maybe

Shinobi X sucks and is not even the same kind of game. Castlevania: SOTN is the comparible game and it's a ripoff of Super Metroid.


, Castlevania IV um castlevania sotn better on Saturn but ok

So what? I'd rather play it on PlayStation. Still, another goofy comment. Castlevania IV is still a fun game.


, TMNTT: Turtles in Time, guardian heroes is better

Oh, hell no!. There are some things about GH that I'm not that fond of.


Star Fox doesn't beat panzerdragoon

Star Fox is a much funner game to pay. Panzer Dragoon's music is generic and the pace is much slower. Since you're going to play that game, Panzer Dragoon Orta is better than Panzer Dragoon.


, Pilot Wings ok that game reminds me of a tech demo

I'm thinking that you are just a Nintendo hater.


R-Type III can't hold a stick to radiant silver gun

Pointless. RS does not make pllaying R-Rype III less enjoyable. I prefer Galactic Attack (Layer Section) to either, personally.


and Final Fantasy III beaten by fs3 as thief says.

He said Shining: The Holy Ark. I don't agree with that.

FFIII>STHA>FFVII


See how easy that was? I'm typing the best I can from my phone btw

It's just plain silly. The EGM buyer's guide is referring to the North American market, and what came out in Japan had nothing to do with their evaluation of the Saturn's future. Bringing up Japanese Saturn games is pointless to this discussion.

Thief
01-20-2018, 05:05 PM
^ Was just listening to the Lego Batman song (Batman thread on another forum);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-u9JeG5Ii8

And so still had the Lego Batman voice in my head as I was reading that, lol. Lol because it fit in tone with Lego Batman character, especially with second last and especially last quote reply (well, before you edited the last quote reply).

Alianger
01-20-2018, 11:30 PM
X-Men: CotA doesn't have "horrible slowdown" at all? I've played it for a bit and seen the battle of the ports vid, and there's just a little bit during some special moves.

Even if it was a bad port, there are plenty of good ones on Saturn from early on and perhaps more good ones than on PS1 in total.

Panzer Dragoon had some excellent music and in redbook I believe, not that Star Fox had a bad OST at all; probably the best in that series actually.

Vector
01-21-2018, 12:11 AM
Gamevet you are wearing snes rose tinted glasses. We aren't talking about ps1. If I say castlevania sotn on Saturn is better than castlevania4, don't bring up ps1. Same with sfa2. Both are better than snes games. Or panzerdragoon over star fox Or guardian which is better than turtles or megaman or Sonic Jam is better than Mario All Stars or metal slug over contra3 or silver gun over rtype lol pilotwings or rtype isn't even on snes mini that's how meh it is all this is obvious if you take off the glasses.

Go ahead and list genres I didn't invent these genres those are just video game genres and you are saying its stupid ha 👌 but I bet Saturn wins. Because in post 86 it wins like 11 out of 15 genres and categories. And y'all can be mad at that all you want. Again just the 2d fighters and 3 fighters engulf snes classic games and that is only 1 genre. Basically its stupid and its emotional when I point out sfa2 is not only same genre yet same franchise but even same game 🎮 and it shines on Saturn people start grabbing tissues and start with excuses.

Thief
01-21-2018, 12:36 AM
Only SotN doesn't compare to SNES Castlevania, compares to SNES Super Metroid (why they call it Metroidvania). And Super Metroid is better, hands down. Because player moves/gameplay/enemies much more frequently and intricately interact with the level design, and the game is more balanced. Not having a leveling up EXP system to abuse is a bonus too, since it forces you to learn to play.

But having said that, during the 32-Bit era SotN impressed more then Super Metroid if you'd have given someone the choice. At least all the mags, including EGM, were foaming at the mouth when mentioning it's name... but all this matter not, Saturn SotN is Japan exclusive.

Vector
01-21-2018, 12:39 AM
It doesn't matter if it was exclusive in Japan. Its a game that released on Saturn right? Its 20 years later the iso is free. This isn't just a NA Saturn vs snes debate the world is bigger than 1 region.

Thief
01-21-2018, 12:44 AM
Because one, it complicates things since now you have to include Japan SNES games. And two, EGM didn't deal with Japan exclusives (thought the topic was tied with EGM). Course it's your topic, your rules.

Vector
01-21-2018, 02:16 AM
I brought this up on the last page. Didn't EGM cover overseas stuff once in a while? Did they not show SF2 coming to states with SF2 proto black bar screenshots from Japan? Maybe I'm thinking of other mags that actually had the insight to cover the world though. I'm wrong, it was GamePro or Game something magazine that did that, but I swore I saw articles about overseas stuff in EGM they even discussed the Mega Drive and add ons like keyboard disc drive etc in first guide I posted coming to states or other machines. EGM 1 below Found it.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2r3f0w2.jpg

Maybe they only did that for upcoming systems or AAA games coming though. But you are right EGM1 was a NA mag strictly basically or maybe I'm thinking of EGM2 or Sega Visions or GameFan or whatever. My main issue for thread was EGM ranking SNES always higher than Saturn yes but we can discuss other mags or topics but if I compare SOTN to a SNES metroidvania games there is no need to bring up PS1 as we are directly comparing or talking about Saturn vs SNES =) Or we can keep talking about how EGM covers the upcoming Dreamcast in Japan with Japan games like Sonic Adv (or upcoming 16 bit system from UK above) released for it but don't mention the Saturn at all even for a NA market or call it a budget system then, I mean in 1999 guide (Dec 1998) Saturn was erased from history but we didn't have DC yet. EGM 1 below.

https://www.retromags.com/uploads/monthly_2017_02/medium.gallery_9_262127.jpg.018018274df15941de2885 4689d174fc.jpg

There are different versions of SNES mini with different games for regions so it seems fair to me. If I can list great Japan Saturn games you guys can list great SNES games. Imo the Saturn still wins. For instance I'm going above and beyond for SNES and it still doesn't measure up "14 CD-ROM capability Saturn > Makes Tempest2000 sound way better than cart version. Yes a board has been made for SNES lately that gives it 44.100hz cd quality audio but it is not a cd-rom, can't play CDs. The SNES/PS proto has been fixed by Ben Heck and can do cd-roms but was not released to masses."

Also, "EGM2 (stylized as EGM2) was a video game magazine published by Sendai Publishing from July 1994 to July 1998 as a spin-off of Electronic Gaming Monthly. EGM2 lacked a reviews section and had a greater emphasis on import games."

https://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/egm2-01.jpg?strip=all


Bringing up Japanese Saturn games is pointless to this discussion.

I'm comparing the best of the best of SNES vs Saturn to see how EGM came up with those conclusions for YEARS, or the internet opinions, from the 90s until now. Best games from around the world for both systems I'm even adding in recent SNES stuff and it doesn't stack up. It has a point, even in NA the Saturn was better. It is not my fault EGM 1 didn't have good worldwide insight or EGM 2 didn't have great worldwide insight. Maybe the problem is Saturn had great games from all regions especially in Japan where they discussed DC in Japan and a weird 16 bit system in UK proof above but people still can only name the same tired 25 SNES "classics" like Pilot Wings or Super R-Type ahhhhhh haaaaaaaa haaaaaa =)

gamevet
01-21-2018, 03:34 AM
You're clueless. EGM was basing their reviews upon what was available for the North American market and what Japan had to offer meant nothing to them.

But, if you want to do a dick wagging contest for the Saturn vs. the SNES, IGN certainly ranked none (I'm pretty sure that they weren't talking about the Saturn version of SOTN on that list) of the games available for the Saturn in their top 100, while Super Metroid is a top 10 title, even being considered much better than Castlevania: SOTN.

http://www.ign.com/lists/top-100-games/2

Vector
01-21-2018, 04:02 AM
You're clueless. EGM was basing their reviews upon what was available for the North American market and what Japan had to offer meant nothing to them.

But, if you want to do a dick wagging contest for the Saturn vs. the SNES, IGN certainly ranked none (I'm pretty sure that they weren't talking about the Saturn version of SOTN on that list) of the games available for the Saturn in their top 100, while Super Metroid is a top 10 title, even being considered much better than Castlevania: SOTN.

http://www.ign.com/lists/top-100-games/2

Yet I proved they discussed things from outside NA. Even in just NA Saturn library was better in 1996 and 1997. No excuse. I gave your precious Super Metroid an ">" on my list, which isn't all my posts, just post 86. Doesn't negate my opinion Castlevania SOTN being better than C4 to me either. FTW http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?33000-Saturn-gt-SNES&p=802482&viewfull=1#post802482

Team Andromeda
01-21-2018, 07:24 AM
Of course Street Fighter Alpha 2 is an outstanding 2D fighter on the Saturn, and you could say that Ultimate MK3 is as well, but that has nothing to do with my point. My point was that there were a lot of good arcade ports on the 16-bit consoles, and that those consoles did a fine job of porting the arcade games of their time, while the 32-bit machines did a fine job of porting the arcade games of their generation. Still, for every excellent arcade port on the Saturn, there's also a dud, like Virtua Racing for Sega Rally, MKII for Ultimate MK3, and X-Men:COTA for Street Fighter Alpha 2.


That is just being silly and also unfair. Unlike the Mega Drive which hardly ever handle Jamma Arcade perfectly, the Saturn did . I haven't a clue what was wrong with your XMen:COTA but it had next to no slowdown and was all but Arcade perfect (apart from frames missing) you also had the lies of Night Warriors which again was all but perfect and a host of near Perfect Jamma and CPS2 ports on the Saturn. You also had duds on the Mega Drive too, Turbo Outrun, Super Thunder Blade, Smash TV, never mind poor Arcade ports onthe Snes like Pitfighter, Final Fight ECT. So I think its rather silly to try and point score on a issue like that myself.


Arcades were dying out in the 90

Hardly, but was happing was the move to High end 3D boards and that meant they was less titles, but there was still pleny of Arcades in the 1990's and Daytona USA was a Arcade sensation and was just everywhere, it was near the end of 1990's that Arcades started to see the huge decline, but even then NA@MI title was very popular


There are actually more arcade ports on the 16-bit consoles, than their are on the 32-bit machines.

At a guess, there was most prob more Arcade ports on the DC and PS2. The main difference was the end of a Arcade port selling a home system and making you want a to buy that console becasue it had a Arcade port of the said game. But the number of Arcade games on the DC and PS2 is simply huge


Star Fox is a much funner game to pay. Panzer Dragoon's music is generic and the pace is much slower.

Yes having a fully paid up 100 pice Orchestra record you music in the early 90's was generic . You have really lost me on that one.

Thief
01-21-2018, 10:50 AM
Good post, TA.


You're clueless. EGM was basing their reviews upon what was available for the North American market and what Japan had to offer meant nothing to them.

But, if you want to do a dick wagging contest for the Saturn vs. the SNES, IGN certainly ranked none (I'm pretty sure that they weren't talking about the Saturn version of SOTN on that list) of the games available for the Saturn in their top 100, while Super Metroid is a top 10 title, even being considered much better than Castlevania: SOTN.

http://www.ign.com/lists/top-100-games/2

You know what usually happens when petty insults enter my posts? I wake up while proofreading or later and edit it out. Because it makes me look weak.

Also, would not include IGN and today's gaming media in any debate, by this timeline mainstream media journalism is 100% corrupt (ie. today reviews are very general and non-specific to please everyone). However, it is interesting to speculate how much influence developers had over gaming mags back in the day (remember when EGM rated Super Street Fighter II very low and Capcom pulled all their ads from EGM. Or when a leaked Resident Evil 2 prototype was traced back to GameFan and it took awhile for GameFan to earn Capcoms trust back for them to send GameFan preview copies again. Or just hot girls PR being sent to GameFan to party and promote their games. All these influence bias).

Vector
01-21-2018, 12:34 PM
Why was he insulting all of us then editing it out? For the best, I don't want insults traded between members here about EGM or Saturn > SNES. Also that IGN list is missing # 2 explaining (the 2 times I reloaded page to see) and is Nintendo Out as 7 out of the top 20 are Nintendo, seems like Sega was removed from history there buddy. Want to see a great list? http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?33000-Saturn-gt-SNES&p=802482&viewfull=1#post802482

gamevet
01-21-2018, 12:46 PM
Good post, TA.



You know what usually happens when petty insults enter my posts? I wake up while proofreading or later and edit it out. Because it makes me look weak.

Also, would not include IGN and today's gaming media in any debate, by this timeline mainstream media journalism is 100% corrupt (ie. today reviews are very general and non-specific to please everyone). However, it is interesting to speculate how much influence developers had over gaming mags back in the day (remember when EGM rated Super Street Fighter II very low and Capcom pulled all their ads from EGM. Or when a leaked Resident Evil 2 prototype was traced back to GameFan and it took awhile for GameFan to earn Capcoms trust back for them to send GameFan preview copies again. Or just hot girls PR being sent to GameFan to party and promote their games. All these influence bias).

No excuse.

When someone starts discrediting what are considered some of the greatest games ever, across the board, it's just plain ignorance.


Final Fantasy III (VI) is considered one of the greatest RPGs ever.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2018/01/01/the-top-100-rpgs-of-all-time.aspx?PostPageIndex=6

Vector
01-21-2018, 12:52 PM
No it means they have an opinion, and stop using insults because that is an ignorant tactic.

Vector
01-21-2018, 12:57 PM
If people don't really know what to call the game ha, then Shining the Holy Ark is better. That game is regarded as one of the best rpg ever too https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/shining-the-holy-ark-review/1900-2534088/

gamevet
01-21-2018, 01:06 PM
Just stop!

I get it. You don't like the SNES. And when you say you don't like RPGs, but still go on about STHA, you come off as being hypocritical.

And don't act like an image of a box of tissue isn't an insult tactic.

Vector
01-21-2018, 01:14 PM
I actually gave the snes games the edge over 10 times over saturn games like metroid, smw, etc so what are you talking about? I still have my snes and sf2ww game from 1992. If you think ff3 or whatever it is called is better than holy ok. Some people think otherwise. I welcome rpg talk here because I don't really like rpgs so you guys can debate but don't get mad when somebody posts and article that rivals your article.

gamevet
01-21-2018, 01:19 PM
I can't continue this conversation. It's like I'm talking to a mentaly challenged individual.

Example: You say you gave the nod to SMW, when in fact you called it inferior to Sonic.

This whole discussion was about why EGM gave a better review for the SNES than the Saturn. It's not about the opinion of Vector and Gamevet. Regardless of what you think of the media, the general consessus is that the SNES library is superior.

Black_Tiger
01-21-2018, 01:32 PM
Final Fantasy III/VI has always been overrated and is aging terribly, although I don't personally dislike it. But too much of my ability to play through it every so often is due to nostalgia. I love JRPGs and played everything I could get bitd. I still like many SNES RPGs, but FFIII, SMRPG and Chrono Trigger are less enjoyable than FFII/IV, Breath of Fires and so many SFC games.

I've never really enjoyed Shining the Holy Ark. It gets most elements right and I like the type of engine they used, but too much of the character design and cgi was painful to look at even when it was current. Some of the dungeons are too tedious, but still better than the later portion of Shining in the Darkness, which I've always enjoyed playing up till that point.

gamevet
01-21-2018, 02:10 PM
I really wanted to like Breath of Fire. I got bored with it after about 30 hours.

Vector
01-21-2018, 02:14 PM
And when you say you don't like RPGs, but still go on about STHA, you come off as being hypocritical.

I'm just countering your argument for the others who say said game was better. I can't post an article if I'm not into rpgs? Interesting.


I can't continue this conversation. It's like I'm talking to a mentaly challenged individual.

There you go with the insults again.


Example: You say you gave the nod to SMW, when in fact you called it inferior to Sonic.

Yes, so did EGM. But I can't just add Sonic 1 from Sonic Jam vs SMW because people here started crying about it. Hence the tissues.


This whole discussion was about why EGM gave a better review for the SNES than the Saturn. It's not about the opinion of Vector and Gamevet.

Well it has 2 points, if you were at all reading me and others posts during entire thread. EGM rating SNES higher than Saturn for YEARS and my counter not only is that wrong, but overall the Saturn is actually the better system ! You actually agree the Saturn library is better yet you call my post 86 silly yet post an even more biased silly IGN list that is even missing explainings as to why the added it to list (#2) but that is ok. Hmmm.


Regardless of what you think of the media, the general consessus is that the SNES library is superior.

So you too liked the Saturn library more like me, didn't you. Isn't that what you said before? Post 86 is going against the mass opinion or lists of IGN.


And don't act like an image of a box of tissue isn't an insult tactic.

It is towards the rest of internet (if they see the post trust me they'll need the tissues), but I never directly insulted a member in this thread, called them names etc based on opinions there is a KEY difference. I also mocked the crying that people did when I made post 86 but mocking them and directly calling people names (then being HYPOCRITICAL and editing them out later) or saying in a politically correct way I'm retarded after I repeatedly said not to insult people anymore is something I didn't do.

"It is unfair to compare same genre, same franchise, same exact game bro hey Kirby Super Star is an special kind of action platformer wait Saturn is winning hey not fair you can't compare sfa2 to sfa2 or megaman to megaman or castlevania to castlevania or a racing game to a racing game or sonic jam to mario all stars you are not being fair to yoshi island Gex isn't better wah wah wah". So posting a tissue box and you calling me a retard is the same thing? I just added the tissue box today, so it seems you just checked post 86 and you are getting more pissed. But it is all laid out and Saturn wins.

If you can't continue the conversation why are you still posting?

sull56ivan2010
01-21-2018, 02:28 PM
Why should we continue speaking to you Vector? All you're doing is acting like a ten year old. You are being way worse than any Nintendo fanboy on the Internet.

Vector
01-21-2018, 02:35 PM
Why should we continue speaking to you Vector? All you're doing is acting like a ten year old. You are being way worse than any Nintendo fanboy on the Internet.

Am I, explain. Why because I have an opinion and everything I just said above is correct? I have listened to your opinion and applied it in post 86. Am I calling people retards or etc? I'm letting Black Tiger speak, gamevet speak (although he really needs to chill with the direct name calling), thief, everyone speak their opinions.

TBH, if you look at the counterpoints I have made, people either say they want to run away or just comeback with name calling after I shortly and intelligently point out something and they can't intelligently respond back (past few posts are proof) or be civil. Says a lot. I'm not really bugged by "acting like a ten year old" ok that is your opinion like in my opinion are some posts are crybaby-ish (hence part of the reason why I posted tissue box) or if you posting a crybaby picture towards me about a post ha and trying to say things aren't same genre when they are, but calling others specifically and directly retards or is too far, especially after I warned against it.

sull56ivan2010
01-21-2018, 02:53 PM
Am I, explain. Why because I have an opinion and everything I just said above is correct? I have listened to your opinion and applied it in post 86. Am I calling people retards or etc? I'm letting Black Tiger speak, gamevet speak (although he really needs to chill with the direct name calling), thief, everyone speak their opinions.

TBH, if you look at the counterpoints I have made, people either say they want to run away or just comeback with name calling after I shortly and intelligently point out something and they can't intelligently respond back (past few posts are proof). Says a lot.

Because you're being a dickhead in this topic. Why should others respond to you in decency? Fuck post 86. You haven't made any decent counterpoint. You keep repeating yourself over and over. You are being very biased. Being completely unfair to the SNES. Give up the Saturn fanboyism. It was not as good as the SNES.

Vector
01-21-2018, 02:59 PM
Because you're being a dickhead in this topic.

Ok. I'm being a dickhead because I'm proving people wrong (games are same genre in list, EGM1 or 2 discussed imports even if briefly, SNES higher than Saturn but not N64, both ff3 and holy are one of best rpgs ever with articles proving it, listened to your feedback for post 86 etc).


Why should others respond to you in decency?

Am I forcing you to post here?


Fuck post 86. You haven't made any decent counterpoint.

Post 86 is my counterpoint with explanations and to links to why. It specifically points out everything per game and per genre but where is your list proving otherwise or any explanation for that matter debunking my counterpoint? And me and Thief both made counterpoints about the EGM ratings perhaps if people read the posts without hurrying to post insults to me with having nothing to really say or contribute to thread either EGM wise nor Saturn > SNES (some of you seemingly don't know what > even means) this wouldn't be a problem.


You keep repeating yourself over and over.

I'm not changing most of my opinions, except for FFIII vs Holy debate...I'll let that pan out. And show me in the last few pages how I'm repeating myself. Just to stop with the insults which you guys can't do =)


You are being very biased.

I admitted that. It is the whole reason I'm counting EGM claims to the the extreme.


Being completely unfair to the SNES.

Yes because giving 12 out of the first 25 or so games on my list to SNES over Saturn is unfair to SNES. Yup. Makes sense to me.


Give up the Saturn fanboyism. It was not as good as the SNES.

IMO it was. You are implying I can't have my own opinion and I must conform to SNES youtube sheep mentality fed from the Nintendo soup or Kool-Aid as one person said here starting in 90s (in 80s Nintendo ruled with various tactics and just by being good but people snapped out of it and bought the Genesis in 90s and experienced better things or liked the Lynx and GG had color to the crap Nintendo fed people) or to think like you and 99% of internet opinion. No thanks. And post 86 aka my counterpoint proves otherwise. Are you as pissed as people saying Genesis is better than SNES in their opinion too?

Thief
01-21-2018, 03:32 PM
No excuse.

When someone starts discrediting what are considered some of the greatest games ever, across the board, it's just plain ignorance.


Final Fantasy III (VI) is considered one of the greatest RPGs ever.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2018/01/01/the-top-100-rpgs-of-all-time.aspx?PostPageIndex=6

Well that's great, but you can be more civil about it when it's as simple as removing a few unchoice words.

And saying the majority of people consider something the greatest isn't the greatest rebuttal either, it's a bandwagon tactic.

Vector
01-21-2018, 03:47 PM
And if you guys don't know what this thread is about, since I made it I'll show you.

1) "So in late 1996 (for 1997 EGM buyers guide) the SNES got higher scores (basically all 9s and 8s) than Saturn with Virtua Cop, Fighting Vipers, Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Knights, Fighters Megamix, Panzer Dragoon 2, Quake, Guardian Heroes, Die Hard Arcade, (arcade perfect*) SF Alpha 2, Netlink internet and VCD movie capabilities etc. Riiight. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...s-1989-to-2001

2) I would dare say a Saturn with Rhea or Phoebe sd and isos is "better" than a SNES its library. Sonic Jam for my 2d Sonic needs, Metal slug for 2d run action, Shinobi Legions or Guardians for 2d beat em up, Tempest2000 for hours of fun, shmups, fighters, racers, movie watching...maybe that is my Sega bias talking. But think about it especially if Shenmue Saturn would have been released.

I came to this conclusion because of old EGM bias in 90s http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...097#post802097

What are your opinions on this guys? Do you think the Saturn always got a bad rap (until vg collectors spiked up ebay prices and also realized it is a great system 20 years later with great games) and maybe is even a more classic console than SNES or do you just think the SNES from 1993 until now is overrated or is the SNES just that great? "

Thief
01-21-2018, 04:01 PM
Just stop!

I get it. You don't like the SNES. And when you say you don't like RPGs, but still go on about STHA, you come off as being hypocritical.

And don't act like an image of a box of tissue isn't an insult tactic.

StHA is one of the greatest high fantasy RPGs because;

- first person contributes to a more immersive experience, like you're actually there
- start of great world building and plot-lines that continue in Shining Force 3 Trilogy for those interested
- interesting cast of character of various high fantasy races (as is normal of a Shining game)
- great story and very high quality English translation using a classical English dialect that isn't too strong and fits perfectly with the established world, therefore adding to greater immersion (this same great English translation continues in Shining Force 3. Sega really had top notch people working on this. What I miss the most about fan translated Scenario 2 & 3)
- engaging, fast paced, well balanced and thought out turn based combat. Something many RPGs bomb at, unfortunately
- epic atmospheric Saturn chip music by Motoi Sakuraba that adds to the immersion
- great graphics that takes advantage of saving extra polygons for background while all NPCs are beautifully & smoothly animated CGI 2D sprites. Detailed minimal or non-warping textures

Vector
01-21-2018, 04:02 PM
StHA is one of the greatest high fantasy RPGs because;

- first person contributes to a more immersive experience, like you're actually there
- start of great world building and plot-lines that continue in Shining Force 3 Trilogy for those interested
- interesting cast of character of various high fantasy races (as is normal of a Shining game)
- great story and very high quality English translation using a classical English dialect that isn't too strong and first perfectly with the established world, therefore adding the greater immersion (this same great English translation continues in Shining Force 3. Sega really had top notch people working on this. What I miss the most about fan translated Scenario 2 & 3)
- engaging, fast paced, well balanced and thought out turn based combat. Something many RPGs bomb at, unfortunately
- epic atmospheric Saturn chip music that adds to the immersion
- great graphics that takes advantage of saving extra polygons for background while all NPCs are beautifully & smoothly animated CGI 2D sprites. Detailed minimal or non-warping textures

I was reading some games only used 1 of the Saturn chips, did this use 2?

" Alien Trilogy


Alien Trilogy was a good early console Doom clone when arriving on PS1, running very well, sticking close to the film source material and oozing with atmosphere. Probe did a pretty good port here, nearly all the PS1 stuff is intact and reportedly it manages to do this even though its only using one of the two Saturn CPU's! with the respectable job they did here, and with Hexen, its a shame they (or even better Lobotomy) hadn't been given the job for the Doom port too. "

Thief
01-21-2018, 04:08 PM
I was reading some games only used 1 of the Saturn chips, did this use 2?

Camelot Software utilized many system pushing techniques for Shining Force 3 (like hiding loading times by involving a sound CPU to pre-calculate data before main CPU came to take over, heavy use of VDP2 for various things, etc), so these guys weren't amateurs. Though this was their first 3D Saturn game.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 06:24 PM
I've been lurking this thread for a while and I have only one question.

When the hell did Vector get unbanned?

Vector
01-21-2018, 06:31 PM
I've been lurking this thread for a while and I have only one question.

When the hell did Vector get unbanned?

Recently, by Melf.

Vector
01-21-2018, 06:35 PM
Did you have anything to contribute to thread since you been lurking or was that it? I been good lately, even getting called names in this thread but I'm keeping my cool. It is hard to be cool with constant negativity or insults just because of vg opinions.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 06:43 PM
Did you have anything to contribute to thread since you been lurking or was that it? I been good lately, even getting called names in this thread but I'm keeping my cool. It is hard to be cool with constant negativity or insults just because of vg opinions.

Not really, it's a rather silly topic to be honest even coming from an avid Saturn fanboy as myself.

I was just curious who let you back in. Nice to see your still ramping up that post count though with double posts.

Vector
01-21-2018, 06:45 PM
Not really, it's a rather silly topic to be honest even coming from an avid Saturn fanboy as myself.

I was just curious who let you back in. Nice to see your still ramping up that post count though with double posts.

Um ok. How many times did I do that in this thread (seriously tell me) or since I been back or why care about my post count? I don't care about it why do you? I remember having this discussion with you before (years ago) and its honestly pathetic. Why does your mind go to a post count contest, are you insecure about something?

Team Andromeda
01-21-2018, 06:48 PM
Camelot Software utilized many system pushing techniques for Shining Force 3 (like hiding loading times by involving a sound CPU to pre-calculate data before main CPU came to take over, heavy use of VDP2 for various things, etc), so these guys weren't amateurs. Though this was their first 3D Saturn game.

Yeah it was a nice looking Saturn RPG that made lovely use of the hardware (fab use of the VDP 2) and was a great game to play.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 06:50 PM
Um ok. How many times did I do that in this thread (seriously tell me) or since I been back or why care about my post count? I don't care about it why do you?

About 4 or 5 times in this thread alone from what I can see. I don't really care about your post count, but when you have a Signature as obnoxious and large as yours, it would save us a lot of scrolling if you would just edit previous posts instead of double or even triple posting.

Since editing posts is so easy, I can only guess you keep double and triple posting to get your post count up.

Vector
01-21-2018, 06:54 PM
I have edited my posts. Most of them actually (maybe 90%) in this thread, instead of "upping my post count" for some unknown reason. Ok I'll erase my signature. I doubt it was 5 times I did that in this thread, you just now saw me do it and said something you said years ago. I don't care about my post count. Now my signature is smaller than your yellow 32 X picture, happy?

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 07:00 PM
I have edited my posts. Most of them actually (maybe 90%) in this thread, instead of "upping my post count" for some unknown reason. Ok I'll erase my signature. I doubt it was 5 times I did that in this thread, you just now saw me do it and said something you said years ago. I don't care about my post count. Now my signature is smaller than your yellow 32 X picture, happy?

You can go back and count for yourself. It was about 4 or 5 times you double posted. And yes, thank you for reducing your signature size, what you had was obnoxiously huge. Honestly I'm surprised the forum software didn't stop you from doing that.

Vector
01-21-2018, 07:19 PM
Well I just added a copy image link of the picture I created, I thought it would only end up as let's say as big as your signature but it made it full size.

Thief
01-21-2018, 07:19 PM
Shining Force Central has software that prevents double posts and it's very annoying because you can't bump threads if you were the last poster. Whatever, that place is rightfully deader then dead now. That's what happens when the mods go ban crazy and you limit posts. (Bailed out of there when too many very active long time posters were so casually getting banned. Final straw was when this guy that did no wrong/had good heart/good intention got banned because a few trolls were foaming at the mouth butthurt for no justified reason turned a perfectly civil debate and spread their perversion to a mod to side with them)

gamevet
01-21-2018, 09:09 PM
Well that's great, but you can be more civil about it when it's as simple as removing a few unchoice words.

When the person you are responding to is being a smartass and pretty much not grasping simple concepts, I'm going to be a dick back.


And saying the majority of people consider something the greatest isn't the greatest rebuttal either, it's a bandwagon tactic.

Newflash! Popularity of a game is why some video game consoles sell better than others. Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy VII propelled the PlayStation past the N64 and Saturn. RPGs are the reason why the SNES outsold the competition in Japan and provided the opportunity for the West to play those games as well.

You're not going to see Western video game journalists putting Dragon Quest on their best of all-time list, because the franchise just wasn't as popular here, as it was in Japan, while the RPGs from Square-Enix were very popular here.

Black_Tiger
01-21-2018, 09:27 PM
When the person you are responding to is being a smartass and pretty much not grasping simple concepts, I'm going to be a dick back.



Newflash! Popularity of a game is why some video game consoles sell better than others. Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy VII propelled the PlayStation past the N64 and Saturn. RPGs are the reason why the SNES outsold the competition in Japan and provided the opportunity for the West to play those games as well.

You're not going to see Western video game journalists putting Dragon Quest on their best of all-time list, because the franchise just wasn't as popular here, as it was in Japan, while the RPGs from Square-Enix were very popular here.

The PC Engine has as many RPGs as SFC and CD games provide an experience you can't get from SFC cart games. Nintendo had a stranglehold on the market in Japan for similar reasons as in North America. Keeping top publishers best titles on your platform and nothing on competitors for as long as possible was the reason for Nintendo's streak of success. As soon as they lost that they lost their lock on Japan.

Team Andromeda
01-21-2018, 09:31 PM
Newflash! Popularity of a game is why some video game consoles sell better than others. Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy VII propelled the PlayStation past the N64 and Saturn. RPGs are the reason why the SNES outsold the competition in Japan and provided the opportunity for the West to play those games as well.

So on that score The Snes was a better system than Mega Drive and Mario IV a much better game than Sonic and Final Fight is better than Streets Of Rage II . Just because a game or system sells more, doesnít mean they are better at all. I find Ys and Lunar to be much better RPGs than any of the 16 bit Square RPGs, not matter what reviews or games sales say. And to me ESPN NFL 2k was better than than Madden series, no matter what the sales said.

Thief
01-21-2018, 09:38 PM
When the person you are responding to is being a smartass and pretty much not grasping simple concepts, I'm going to be a dick back.

It's better to diffuse intense situations with humor that even your opponent can't resist. It's a tactic I use to great success on another forum every now and then, considering liking posts is unlimited in other places, for all to see and when you see your opponent & others like your post, you know you've succeeded. The rep system here really sucks. So many posts wasted just commenting on reps here, yet double posts is what everyone complains about. Ok.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 09:49 PM
People take rep systems on forums seriously?

gamevet
01-21-2018, 09:52 PM
The PC Engine has as many RPGs as SFC and CD games provide an experience you can't get from SFC cart games. Nintendo had a stranglehold on the market in Japan for similar reasons as in North America. Keeping top publishers best titles on your platform and nothing on competitors for as long as possible was the reason for Nintendo's streak of success. As soon as they lost that they lost their lock on Japan.

Ys was special, and quite popular, but the price to play PC-Engine games on CD was really expensive. I know of only a few RPGs on the PC-Engine. I can't imagine that it was as large as the massive amount of RPGs available for the Super Famicom in Japan.

There were at least a dozen RPGs for the SFC that sold over a million units in Japan.

http://www.the-magicbox.com/Chart-JPPlatinum.shtml

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 10:10 PM
It's a form of communication (ie, you rep a post, others can see your name on it letting everyone know you agree with what was said or thought it funny. This way you get a clearer sense of who's who and what they stand for on a forum). But there's no denying many use it as a popularity contest, therefore it can get to your head, to the point where people will argue they are better because they have way more (but you see this very rarely).

Reputations systems always devolve into nothing but a dick waving contest. There's no denying it or trying to defend it. Which is why it should never be taken seriously. All of what you mentioned as a benefit you can easily get by just reading and replying to other peoples posts and reading what they say in reply to yours. If you think you need a reputation system to figure those things out, then you have either failed at communication or are too afraid to speak your mind out in the open.

Thief
01-21-2018, 10:23 PM
Reputations systems always devolve into nothing but a dick waving contest. There's no denying it or trying to defend it. Which is why it should never be taken seriously. All of what you mentioned as a benefit you can easily get by just reading and replying to other peoples posts and reading what they say in reply to yours. If you think you need a reputation system to figure those things out, then you have either failed at communication or are too afraid to speak your mind out in the open.

Doesn't matter to the people who know better, nor is this rep system an issue at the forum I'm at. Lots of good people and mods there (only forum where racial score gap thread survived and people actually had a civil discussion or some fun harmless humor about it. Didn't even care about the topic, only cared about how people would react after seeing how hard this forum bombed at it).

Even know a guy who even only uses the rep system to keep track of what posts he read, meaning he reps every posts he reads. So sorry you can't see the convenience in a proper working rep system.

Thief
01-21-2018, 10:27 PM
Reputations systems always devolve into nothing but a dick waving contest. There's no denying it or trying to defend it. Which is why it should never be taken seriously. All of what you mentioned as a benefit you can easily get by just reading and replying to other peoples posts and reading what they say in reply to yours. If you think you need a reputation system to figure those things out, then you have either failed at communication or are too afraid to speak your mind out in the open.

Can't like this post, so I'm tell you I like post. Me communication good. http://storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/ITZtQsetzZZSJHCGCtyn.gif

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 10:28 PM
Doesn't matter to the people who know better, nor is this rep system an issue at the forum I'm at. Lots of good people and mods there (only forum where racial score gap thread survived and people actually had a civil discussion or some fun harmless humor about it. Didn't even care about the topic, only cared about how people would react after seeing how hard this forum bombed at it).

Maybe this forum bombed at it because you've been flooding it with asinine polls and political shock topics for months now and we've all gotten sick of it?



Even know a guy who even only uses the rep system to keep track of what posts he read, meaning he reps every posts he reads. So sorry you can't see the convenience in a proper working rep system.

I don't see the point in using a rep system for tasks better handled by already existing features. (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4148102)


Can't like this post, so I'm tell you I like post. Me communication good. http://storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/ITZtQsetzZZSJHCGCtyn.gif

And here I edit my post to reply to your double post. This way I will not make a double post. I am the master of using vBulletin apparently...

Thief
01-21-2018, 10:31 PM
If people are sick of it, they don't have to reply or enter thread. Threads can die peacefully on their own for lack of interest, don't you know. That's how free speech works.

And what's that supposed to link to because it doesn't work.


Also haven't posted on shmups in ages, so your theory is fail because it got nuked there too.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 10:34 PM
If people are sick of it, they don't have to reply or enter thread. Threads can die peacefully on their own for lack of interest, don't you know. That's how free speech works.

That's fine and dandy, but when the first page of Off Topic and Insert Coin are almost full of nothing but your asinine polls and topics, we have a problem. Clearly ignoring them wont stop you from continuing to flood the forum with them.



And what's that supposed to link to because it doesn't work.

The new posts button. Works fine for me.



Also haven't posted on shmups in ages, so your theory is fail because it got nuked there too.

This forum is not shmups.org. It's Sega-16. I can't explain why it bombed there as I don't post there. I can say that here at Sega-16 though you've flooded the forum with pointless shit to the point of critical mass.

Thief
01-21-2018, 10:36 PM
The new posts button. Works fine for me.

New post & today's posts buttons don't work as intended. It can only keep track of so many posts. Plus some forums are massive with many subtopics even if it did work as intended. Or maybe sometimes you don't want to read every page or poster reply.

Barone
01-21-2018, 10:42 PM
If people are sick of it, they don't have to reply or enter thread. Threads can die peacefully on their own for lack of interest, don't you know. That's how free speech works.
That's how obnoxious, narrow-minded people think and that's the kind of behavior which contributes to ruin forums.
No wonder why several forums condem double-posting - including this one - and the creation of frivolous threads such as the polls you've created in dozens here.

It's not the community nor the forum rules which need adjustments; it's the obnoxious twerps who are expected to comply or leave.

Thief
01-21-2018, 10:43 PM
That's fine and dandy, but when the first page of Off Topic and Insert Coin are almost full of nothing but your asinine polls and topics, we have a problem. Clearly ignoring them wont stop you from continuing to flood the forum with them.

I've already rebutted this claim, or haven't you caught my page edit?


That's how obnoxious, narrow-minded people think and that's the kind of behavior which contributes to ruin forums.
No wonder why several forums condem double-posting - including this one - and the creation of frivolous threads such as the polls you've created in dozens here.

It's not the community nor the forum rules which need adjustments; it's the obnoxious twerps who are expected to comply or leave.

Again, already answered this where I said I've posted same topic on a forum where I haven't posted in ages and it still got nuked because not many adults on the internet. Only one forum was mature enough for it.

And are you a conformist? Too many rules is what prisons are.

Barone
01-21-2018, 10:59 PM
Again, already answered this where I said I've posted same topic on a forum where I haven't posted in ages and it still got nuked because not many adults on the internet. Only one forum was mature enough for it.
Mature is a word you shouldn't really use. At all.
You probably got nuked 'cause people in other forums might be as tired of you as we are here.


And are you a conformist? Too many rules is what prisons are.
I'm a straightforward guy: forums are shared spaces and therefore you shouldn't use them as your own toilet.
You have very little relevant information to share with us, yet you have created countless threads in the last few months. Go figure.

Thief
01-21-2018, 11:03 PM
Mature is a word you shouldn't really use. At all.
You probably got nuked 'cause people in other forums might be as tired of you as we are here.


I'm a straightforward guy: forums are shared spaces and therefore you shouldn't use them as your own toilet.
You have very little relevant information to share with us, yet you have created countless threads in the last few months. Go figure.

Have you even read my post? On shmups forum I'm virtually an unkown. An unknown who's last post there was ages ago. Yet another forum I frequent way more then here, and it's much more active there too, it didn't get nuked. So your logic is false.



And do any of you even know all this anti starting threads agenda some of have been pushing has created a fear for starting new threads? The most recent one was that guy who started the videogame myth thread, he posted it in the something random thread. I literally had to tell him "Why not start a thread about it? Barely anybody shows up in this thread."

It's impossible to predict what thread will catch on with folks or not, that why it's best to just be free to start threads and let nature take care of the rest. Oppressing free speech is never the answer. Nor does it encourage a healthy active forum.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 11:06 PM
New post & today's posts buttons don't work as intended. It can only keep track of so many posts. Plus some forums are massive with many subtopics even if it did work as intended. Or maybe sometimes you don't want to read every page or poster reply.

And somehow the rep system solves that?


I've already rebutted this claim, or haven't you caught my page edit?

Did you catch mine? :wink:



Again, already answered this where I said I've posted same topic on a forum where I haven't posted in ages and it still got nuked because not many adults on the internet. Only one forum was mature enough for it.

And are you a conformist? Too many rules is what prisons are.

I'm not seeing it getting nuked due to a lack of maturity. More of just general fatigue.


Have you even read my post? On shmups forum I'm virtually an unkown. An unknown who's last post there was ages ago. Yet another forum I frequent way more then here, and it's much more active there too, it didn't get nuked. So your logic is false.

Shumps has less patience for your bullshit than we do? And that's really saying something to be honest. I know bloodflowers from years of playing Phantasy Star Universe with him and hanging out in the PSU IRC chats with him for years. He's a pretty laid back guy. So for you to upset him into locking a thread really takes effort.



And do any of you even know all this anti starting threads agenda some of have been pushing has created a fear for starting new threads? The most recent one was that guy who started the videogame myth thread, he posted it in the something random thread. I literally had to tell him "Why not start a thread about it? Barely anybody shows up in this thread."

It's impossible to predict what thread will catch on with folks or not, that why it's best to just be free to start threads and let nature take care of the rest. Oppressing free speech is never the answer. Nor does it encourage a healthy active forum.

We're not against new threads, we're against the asinine shit threads that you start.

Thief
01-21-2018, 11:11 PM
And somehow the rep system solves that?



Did you catch mine? :wink:



I'm not seeing it getting nuked due to a lack of maturity. More of just general fatigue.

Does for this guy. Otherwise he wouldn't be doing it.


No I didn't, should have double posted it to make sure I see it.


When people start irrationally raising pitchforks without discussion, it's not a sign of mature. And again, posted that same thread on shmups forum where I'm an unkown and haven't posted in ages, yet got same results as here. And on a forum I'm way more active then here responded to same thread in a civilized way. How many times I have to repeat, is my English translator working?


Shumps has less patience for your bullshit than we do?



We're not against new threads, we're against the asinine shit threads that you start.


Not patience, more pitchforks. But not as many as here because it last way longer then here.


Trust me, this forum dictates way to many rules from some of you who feel are the elite and everyone else to conform to. Don't believe me, Barone even said it on this page just now.

Barone
01-21-2018, 11:21 PM
Shumps has less patience for your bullshit than we do? And that's really saying something to be honest. I know bloodflowers from years of playing Phantasy Star Universe with him and hanging out in the PSU IRC chats with him for years. He's a pretty laid back guy. So for you to upset him into locking a thread really takes effort.
We're not against new threads, we're against the asinine shit threads that you start.
This.



Trust me, this forum dictates way to many rules from some of you who feel are the elite and everyone else to conform to. Don't believe me, Barone even said it on this page just now.
Actually, the moderation is forced to lock your threads because they're too dumb. ;)

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 11:21 PM
Does for this guy. Otherwise he wouldn't be doing it.

Maybe you should learn how to use the forums better instead of complaining that we don't take reputation seriously.



No I didn't, should have double posted it to make sure I see it.

Sorry but I'd rather not clutter threads with a bunch of posts right after the other.



When people start irrationally raising pitchforks without discussion, it's not a sign of mature. And again, posted that same thread on shmups forum where I'm an unkown and haven't posted in ages, yet got same results as here. And on a forum I'm way more active then here responded to same thread in a civilized way. How many times I have to repeat, is my English translator working?

As I said, shumps just had less patience for your shit than we did. We put up with countless threads daily from you and reached our limit. Shumps simply had none of it. Which honestly surprises me. I know Bloodflowers from playing Phantasy Star Universe with him and chatting with him in the PSU IRC channels for years. He's a pretty laid back person. So for him to nuke a thread like that you must have done a bit more. Sadly I can't find the thread to see just exactly what you did.



Trust me, this forum dictates way to many rules from some of you who feel are the elite and everyone else to conform to. Don't believe me, Barone even said it on this page just now.

There's very few rules on this forum and most are very loosely enforced at that. What we're talking about is more or less forum etiquette. You're free to not follow it or not take our advice, but don't act surprised when people perceive you as nothing more than an attention seeking idiot.

Barone
01-21-2018, 11:28 PM
What we're talking about is more or less forum etiquette. You're free to not follow it or not take our advice, but don't act surprised when people perceive you as nothing more than an attention seeking idiot.
So true.

Thief
01-21-2018, 11:33 PM
Actually, the moderation is forced to lock your threads because they're too dumb. ;)

How do I too get an elite card to start dictating what threads are allowed for all forum users to participate in or not? :confused:


Maybe you should learn how to use the forums better instead of complaining that we don't take reputation seriously.



Sorry but I'd rather not clutter threads with a bunch of posts right after the other.



As I said, shumps just had less patience for your shit than we did. We put up with countless threads daily from you and reached our limit. Shumps simply had none of it. Which honestly surprises me. I know Bloodflowers from playing Phantasy Star Universe with him and chatting with him in the PSU IRC channels for years. He's a pretty laid back person. So for him to nuke a thread like that you must have done a bit more. Sadly I can't find the thread to see just exactly what you did.



There's very few rules on this forum and most are very loosely enforced at that. What we're talking about is more or less forum etiquette. You're free to not follow it or not take our advice, but don't act surprised when people perceive you as nothing more than an attention seeking idiot.


How about you stop rebutting everyone into submission with superior quoting skills. :p

Barone
01-21-2018, 11:38 PM
How do I too get an elite card to start dictating what threads are allowed for all forum users to participate in or not? :confused:
Seems like your ego is too big to allow you to accept the notion of being part of something instead of being the center of everything.

Thief
01-21-2018, 11:38 PM
So true.

There isn't a proper etiquette definition to satisfy anyone in today's progressive snowflake safe space world. Thick skins are a dying breed.


Seems like your ego is too big to allow you to accept the notion of being part of something instead of being the center of everything.

Once my ego reaches your level, I'm sure the universe will bend to my will too.

Barone
01-21-2018, 11:52 PM
There isn't a proper etiquette definition to satisfy anyone in today's progressive snowflake safe space world. Thick skins are a dying breed.
Says the guy who's declaring free speech oppression after being introduced to forum etiquette. Lol.



Once my ego reaches your level, I'm sure the universe will bend to my will too.
This is what reality tell us though:
https://i.imgur.com/OHGK01C.png

TrekkiesUnite118
01-21-2018, 11:52 PM
How do I too get an elite card to start dictating what threads are allowed for all forum users to participate in or not? :confused:

Not routinely making an ass of yourself is a good place to start. Vector has struggled with that one for a while. Not sure if he has learned it yet or not.



How about you stop rebutting everyone into submission with superior quoting skills. :p

If you don't want people to reply to your posts then perhaps a public message board isn't the best place to post your thoughts. Maybe you'd do better on a blog with commenting disabled.


There isn't a proper etiquette definition to satisfy anyone in today's progressive snowflake safe space world. Thick skins are a dying breed.

This has nothing to do with progressivism or snowflakes. You're just using that as an excuse to try and get away with being a pestering and annoying attention whore.



Once my ego reaches your level, I'm sure the universe will bend to my will too.

I think it's at a much higher level than you may want to admit...

Thief
01-22-2018, 12:02 AM
Yo, Trekkie, I'm not playing that win by quote attrition game of yours.


Says the guy who's declaring free speech oppression after being introduced to forum etiquette. Lol.



This is what reality tell us though:
https://i.imgur.com/OHGK01C.png

Can you not see the views in those topics? Or is that universe revolving around you so dark.

Barone
01-22-2018, 12:11 AM
Can you not see the views in those topics? Or is that universe revolving around you so dark.
Good to see you admit it's all about attention seeking. :lol:

Thief
01-22-2018, 12:13 AM
Only an attention seeking mind would see it that way.

Thief
01-22-2018, 12:34 AM
Alright, Barone, Trekkies, I need to go sleep. It's been fun, but need to get up early as the only thing feeding my ego is adding some form of shape to my body in time for summer otherwise my universe will collapse.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-22-2018, 12:40 AM
Yo, Trekkie, I'm not playing that win by quote attrition game of yours.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yNhl8wT3Pc



Can you not see the views in those topics? Or is that universe revolving around you so dark.

And yet you accuse us of being the ones with huge egos... :roll:

Vector
01-22-2018, 04:46 AM
If it is a forum rule to not double post or if I did that too many times, like 5 times in this thread, out of like the 15 pages so far then I apologize. I don't think I did that at all in other threads I posted in since being unbanned such as (SOR3, 2nd Party, Model 3 emulation, etc) but I wanted to answer Treks post without editing my post so he wouldn't think I said something harsh if he saw an edit on bottom (like others did here before they edited posts to remove it) then post again asking if he had anything he wanted to say about thread, which I think he said he likes the Saturn library very much. I think many of us do here. I understand I'm doing something extreme and claiming Saturn library is better than SNES and that'll turn heads but the more I detail it the more I stand by my opinion.

About me learning or not, I'm doing my best to deflect negativity or name calling people to me without even getting remotely upset like I did years ago, most of the time now I just laugh it off with a "ha" in post. Most of the time I'm trying to just figure out others perspectives or just telling them please stop. I find it easier just to counter somebody with logic and if their reply is "I'm running away from this thread" or "you are a retard" then most likely the other person can't intelligently respond properly and most likely I won said discussion or counter. But I'll do my best to keep calm and not name call. At worse, I'll just use humor and post a tissue box picture in general lumping what I'm hearing against me or post a "ha" response or use a "cool with sunglasses on" emoji. I don't get mad if somebody points out a mistake I made or I'm wrong because I learn so others shouldn't get mad just because they can't counter me. See my posts against Gamevet or Dull24vilsss (sorry I forget your name) to see what I mean.

About me being an ass, dickhead, prick, retard, obtuse etc the rest of names or whatever (well the ones not edited out and removed by others so far) I was called here just in this thread (without me even getting upset and making a lot of replies against said posts except "please stop the insults over vg opinions") that is up to yall to figure out in the time I came back until now. ATM, I'm standing my ground on my disagreement of EGM rating of SNES higher than Saturn for years being unfair and my opinion of I like Saturns library better and why (post 86). Maybe I could be could an ass for that, but most of the people ironically agree with my opinion for the most part or partially for certain genres. I gave SNES 12 wins out of the first 25 games on my list comparison. I don't mind being called an ass (I know Treks meant that for me in past) but if I'm called that now by somebody idc it isn't really a big deal. I was an asshole years ago defending myself by digging into opponents hardcore with name calling, constant counters, fits etc if they disrespected me) but being called a retard over and over again should stop now if I can stop double posting now or blowing up on people like I did years ago. TBH Treks and Barone probably like me the least out of all the forum members here but we can still all post civilly towards each other in any thread (as best we can). I welcome all members in my threads and I honestly don't have a problem with anyone here and I'd like to keep it that way. I like Thief, Treks, Barones, Gamevets and everybody in this thread perspective on vgs and I welcome more. I'm willing to change some games in post 86, but honestly I laid out a clear case to why my opinion is my opinion.

j_factor
01-22-2018, 06:28 AM
How do I too get an elite card to start dictating what threads are allowed for all forum users to participate in or not? :confused:

How about you stop rebutting everyone into submission with superior quoting skills. :p

Are you high? At first I thought you were just being a douche but then I took a few tokes and now I think you're hilarious.

TrekkiesUnite118
01-22-2018, 08:18 AM
If it is a forum rule to not double post or if I did that too many times, like 5 times in this thread, out of like the 15 pages so far then I apologize. I don't think I did that at all in other threads I posted in since being unbanned such as (SOR3, 2nd Party, Model 3 emulation, etc) but I wanted to answer Treks post without editing my post so he wouldn't think I said something harsh if he saw an edit on bottom (like others did here before they edited posts to remove it) then post again asking if he had anything he wanted to say about thread, which I think he said he likes the Saturn library very much. I think many of us do here. I understand I'm doing something extreme and claiming Saturn library is better than SNES and that'll turn heads but the more I detail it the more I stand by my opinion.

About me learning or not, I'm doing my best to deflect negativity or name calling people to me without even getting remotely upset like I did years ago, most of the time now I just laugh it off with a "ha" in post. Most of the time I'm trying to just figure out others perspectives or just telling them please stop. I find it easier just to counter somebody with logic and if their reply is "I'm running away from this thread" or "you are a retard" then most likely the other person can't intelligently respond properly and most likely I won said discussion or counter. But I'll do my best to keep calm and not name call. At worse, I'll just use humor and post a tissue box picture in general lumping what I'm hearing against me or post a "ha" response or use a "cool with sunglasses on" emoji. I don't get mad if somebody points out a mistake I made or I'm wrong because I learn so others shouldn't get mad just because they can't counter me. See my posts against Gamevet or Dull24vilsss (sorry I forget your name) to see what I mean.

About me being an ass, dickhead, prick, retard, obtuse etc the rest of names or whatever (well the ones not edited out and removed by others so far) I was called here just in this thread (without me even getting upset and making a lot of replies against said posts except "please stop the insults over vg opinions") that is up to yall to figure out in the time I came back until now. ATM, I'm standing my ground on my disagreement of EGM rating of SNES higher than Saturn for years being unfair and my opinion of I like Saturns library better and why (post 86). Maybe I could be could an ass for that, but most of the people ironically agree with my opinion for the most part or partially for certain genres. I gave SNES 12 wins out of the first 25 games on my list comparison. I don't mind being called an ass (I know Treks meant that for me in past) but if I'm called that now by somebody idc it isn't really a big deal. I was an asshole years ago defending myself by digging into opponents hardcore with name calling, constant counters, fits etc if they disrespected me) but being called a retard over and over again should stop now if I can stop double posting now or blowing up on people like I did years ago. TBH Treks and Barone probably like me the least out of all the forum members here but we can still all post civilly towards each other in any thread (as best we can). I welcome all members in my threads and I honestly don't have a problem with anyone here and I'd like to keep it that way. I like Thief, Treks, Barones, Gamevets and everybody in this thread perspective on vgs and I welcome more. I'm willing to change some games in post 86, but honestly I laid out a clear case to why my opinion is my opinion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIyarfY_z0I

Vector
01-23-2018, 03:45 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIyarfY_z0I

Don't worry people don't read my posts (correctly) anyway. Even when I type the exact same thing and repeat it in bold they'll still mistake what I said. The post was just saying stuff like double posting is a forum rule but not insulting others is too (right). And look how many people did that because they felt I disrespected Pilot Wings which was a game more like a tech demo showing off mode 7 graphics and the use of shoulder buttons on the controller of the new SNES back in the day. So if they get suspended it shouldn't be no surprise. And unlike other people here, I don't report things. But if a mod sees it, that is on them. Anyway, slowly descending then pressing L shoulder button then R shoulder button to aim yourself on a target on the ground while your in the air isn't fun to me. Since Nintendo created and distributed that game, and if it was great as everyone claims, it would have ended up on snes mini classic wouldn't it. So insulting people because they don't agree a vg is great or classic makes sense? Interesting. When I debate with people I offer to send a free vcd and pay for shipping because I don't take it personally. But obviously most of yall do. Even complaining about my double posting or crying I like Sonic Jam more than Mario All Stars (or even Sonic 1 > SMW) complaining about my signature (what is next complaining about j_factor signature because it is bigger than yours too?) or crying I don't think some snes mini games are fun or are better than Saturn games or hey how about you go complain to Melf he let me back or complain cry complain...now show me another didn't read meme. And Thief is right, certain people have elitist and high horse attitudes on this forum, yet they didn't create this forum but try and dictate it or complain about stuff other people do yet they don't get no action against them for treating others like dirt and cursing them out during arguments (if I got banned for that they should have DEFINITELY have been banned too), are not admins, not mods but just regular members here like us. Last edited by Vector; Today at 03:35 AM. not a double post :cool:

Barone
01-23-2018, 07:44 AM
https://i.imgur.com/6uFEAxP.gif

OverDrone
01-23-2018, 07:53 AM
Any chance you could split that block of text into paragraphs, bro?

TrekkiesUnite118
01-23-2018, 09:53 AM
Don't worry people don't read my posts (correctly) anyway. Even when I type the exact same thing and repeat it in bold they'll still mistake what I said. The post was just saying stuff like double posting is a forum rule but not insulting others is too (right). And look how many people did that because they felt I disrespected Pilot Wings which was a game more like a tech demo showing off mode 7 graphics and the use of shoulder buttons on the controller of the new SNES back in the day. So if they get suspended it shouldn't be no surprise. And unlike other people here, I don't report things. But if a mod sees it, that is on them. Anyway, slowly descending then pressing L shoulder button then R shoulder button to aim yourself on a target on the ground while your in the air isn't fun to me. Since Nintendo created and distributed that game, and if it was great as everyone claims, it would have ended up on snes mini classic wouldn't it. So insulting people because they don't agree a vg is great or classic makes sense? Interesting. When I debate with people I offer to send a free vcd and pay for shipping because I don't take it personally. But obviously most of yall do. Even complaining about my double posting or crying I like Sonic Jam more than Mario All Stars (or even Sonic 1 > SMW) complaining about my signature (what is next complaining about j_factor signature because it is bigger than yours too?) or crying I don't think some snes mini games are fun or are better than Saturn games or hey how about you go complain to Melf he let me back or complain cry complain...now show me another didn't read meme. And Thief is right, certain people have elitist and high horse attitudes on this forum, yet they didn't create this forum but try and dictate it or complain about stuff other people do yet they don't get no action against them for treating others like dirt and cursing them out during arguments (if I got banned for that they should have DEFINITELY have been banned too), are not admins, not mods but just regular members here like us. Last edited by Vector; Today at 03:35 AM. not a double post :cool:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He02Z5YdZbg

gamevet
01-23-2018, 10:20 AM
Any chance you could split that block of text into paragraphs, bro?

That would be beyond his abilities.

Vector
01-23-2018, 10:33 AM
Any chance you could split that block of text into paragraphs, bro?

Sure. When I do I get "didn't read" memes though.


That would be beyond his abilities.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?33000-Saturn-gt-SNES&p=802849&viewfull=1#post802849


Any chance you could split that block of text into paragraphs, bro?

"Don't worry people don't read my posts (correctly) anyway. Even when I type the exact same thing and repeat it in bold they'll still mistake what I said. The post was just saying stuff like double posting is a forum rule but not insulting others is too (right). And look how many people did that because they felt I disrespected Pilot Wings which was a game more like a tech demo showing off mode 7 graphics and the use of shoulder buttons on the controller of the new SNES back in the day. So if they get suspended it shouldn't be no surprise. And unlike other people here, I don't report things. But if a mod sees it, that is on them.

Anyway, slowly descending then pressing L shoulder button then R shoulder button to aim yourself on a target on the ground while your in the air isn't fun to me. Since Nintendo created and distributed that game, and if it was great as everyone claims, it would have ended up on snes mini classic wouldn't it. So insulting people because they don't agree a vg is great or classic makes sense? Interesting. When I debate with people I offer to send a free vcd and pay for shipping because I don't take it personally. But obviously most of yall do.

Even complaining about my double posting or crying I like Sonic Jam more than Mario All Stars (or even Sonic 1 > SMW, even EGM agreed) complaining about my signature (what is next complaining about j_factor signature because it is bigger than yours too?) or crying I don't think some snes mini games are fun or are better than Saturn games or hey how about you go complain to Melf he let me back or complain cry complain...now show me another didn't read meme. And Thief is right, certain people have elitist and high horse attitudes on this forum, yet they didn't create this forum but try and dictate it or complain about stuff other people do yet they don't get no action against them for treating others like dirt and cursing them out along with name calling during arguments (if I got banned for that they should have DEFINITELY have been banned too), are not admins, not mods but just regular members here like us."

I find it funny when ants try to take down a bear (metaphor). But when you do gangstalk the non elite members, try and stay on topic (which your guys latest posts weren't at all). :cool:


https://i.imgur.com/6uFEAxP.gif

Usually happens when the usual suspects start gang stalking non elite members of the forum. Check the past 4 pages, unless that train on the left is a Saturn and the train on right is SNES :cool:

Thief
01-23-2018, 10:38 AM
That would be beyond his abilities.

You know you guys don't have to reply to him if you don't like his posts... ah, but right. It's beyond your abilities to not act immoral.

gamevet
01-23-2018, 11:10 AM
You know you guys don't have to reply to him if you don't like his posts... ah, but right. It's beyond your abilities to not act immoral.

I didn't reply to him with that post, did I? And don't act like he's an innocent bystander here.

It's pretty obvious that he doesn't get that people aren't agreeing with him, yet he continues to set himself up for flak. It's probably the same reason he got banned last time.

Thief
01-23-2018, 11:14 AM
Still insinuated insult toward Vector.

And he's not insulting anyone. Therefore if you don't agree with him, move on with your lives instead of feeding into hatred.

gamevet
01-23-2018, 11:37 AM
There's no insinuation about it. The dude butchers the English language, has a bunch of people telling he's wrong and he still continues to respond to them. I'm done responding to the idiot.

Again, there's a reason why the guy got a lifetime ban. Melf gave the dude another chance, and it appears that he's headed down the path that got him banned in the 1st place.

Thief
01-23-2018, 11:43 AM
That's no excuse to hop on the immoral bandwagon and insult him too.

Wasn't there for that past, and not like folks don't deserve a second chance, basing all this on what I see now. And it's a pattern I always see around these parts.

gamevet
01-23-2018, 11:47 AM
I was just watching the train wreck and made a comment to someone expecting him to use proper paragraph form. The train derailed 5 or 6 pages ago.

Thief
01-23-2018, 11:49 AM
Well aren't you the good Christian.

gamevet
01-23-2018, 12:01 PM
He'll sink himself without my comments, SJW.

Don't get me started on Evil religion.

Thief
01-23-2018, 12:03 PM
Then let him. And thanks for proving your inability to go on without insults.

And like Nihilism is better.

Barone
01-23-2018, 12:24 PM
Then let him. And thanks for proving your inability to go on without insults.
He didn't insult you, he just said exactly what you are.
And you asked for it by trying to hunt him down.

Thief
01-23-2018, 12:27 PM
Insinuating.

And I'm not hunting him down, just explaining his inability to spot immorality.

Vector
01-23-2018, 01:07 PM
I was just watching the train wreck and made a comment to someone expecting him to use proper paragraph form

Yo were being negative and commenting how you said you weren't going to keep commenting before that LOL and you can't negate anything without constantly insulting people. Anyway, I linked you to the post that negated I can't write paragraphs or "That would be beyond his abilities." in post #228 (or most posts in this thread), which the link showed I wrote paragraphs correctly right before the block of text comment you bandwagoned on. I have been writing mostly correct paragraph comments in this thread, how are 3 sections of 4-7 sentences (written as a paragraph) not paragraphs again? "A basic paragraph structure usually consists of five sentences."

By all means besides the block of text post I recently made, show me all these block of texts comments I made here so far because I mostly just wrote a couple sentences, paragraphs or lists in post 86. Scratch that off your "list of things we can complain about Vector about", double posts, my past, post counts, signature, paragraphs etc.


The train derailed 5 or 6 pages ago.

Yup and look who showed up here with his buddies and your comeback into this thread with same the negativity. Hmmm. So was it 5 pages ago when the people who don't like me starting showing up http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?33000-Saturn-gt-SNES/page12 or 6 pages ago when you couldn't negate me, threatened to run away from thread, not to post in it anymore more, insulted me for "disrespecting" pilot wings etc? Also, Why would I get suspended or banned, I'm doing nothing wrong. And it is different now that Joe (you know the guy who had a Sega-16 meltdown) isn't admin anymore, you can't get him to suspend me or ban simply because you don't like me or my debates you can't negate =) Btw I only got suspended or banned by him (your reporting PMs to him helped as well =).

And since there are so many quote masters and comments to (but not about) my thread here, just quote post 86 and type 80 or so classic or great SNES games that beat the ones I wrote to see who wins.

Barone
01-23-2018, 01:19 PM
And I'm not hunting him down, just explaining his inability to spot immorality.
Ah, OK, ahahahahahaha.

Thief
01-23-2018, 01:32 PM
Sociopaths = moral nihilists.

gamevet
01-23-2018, 01:53 PM
And like Nihilism is better.

Asked the oppressed people in the Middle East how great religion is for their well being. One man's god is another man's devil.

You just called me a sociopath. How Christian of you.

Thief
01-23-2018, 02:01 PM
Divide and conquer tactic. It's being used everywhere and all manner of things, not just religion.


You just called me a sociopath. How Christian of you.

Did I?

gamevet
01-23-2018, 02:27 PM
Yeah, that has very little with religion treating woman like dogs, and that includes Christianity where the woman is asked to obey her man and man could have as many wives as he wished.

Again. Don't get me started on religion. Being a good person has nothing to do with it.

Yes you did, in a round about way, Call me a sociopath. Hypocrisy is golden.

Thief
01-23-2018, 02:43 PM
Did not mean to insinuate you and anyone here is a sociopath. Was insinuating that we as a society are pulled more and more toward nihilism and it's not good.

And you're talking Old Testament.

gamevet
01-23-2018, 02:47 PM
That's what the Muslims base their religion around, and Mormans still followed the practice of multiple wives. What do you think the Amish are doing?

j_factor
01-23-2018, 02:47 PM
Only on Sega-16 would a thread about SNES versus Saturn turn into an argument about religion.

Thief
01-23-2018, 02:55 PM
That's what the Muslims base their religion around, and Mormans still followed the practice of multiple wives. What do you think the Omish are doing?

So what's your solution?


Only on Sega-16 would a thread about SNES versus Saturn turn into an argument about religion.

Have you heard of the processing and VDP2 powers of the Saturn?

Vector
01-23-2018, 02:58 PM
I don't mind if you keep talking about this, I find it interesting. Thief's comment about divide and conquer tactic has more than "very little to do with religion" as the divide and conquer strategy snowballs into parts of society like Religion where the man basically divided a line then nominated himself more worthy than the woman of said religion or the Pope (Jesuit) is closer to god than us common folks or just read more below etc.

Divide and conquer is the #1 NWO tool, one of the oldest and most successful, race, class, political nonsense 2 sides of same coin, gender, sports, religion vs religion, nation vs nation in war with elite funding both sides and making more profit from both sides with weapon sales and resources taken but what happens when you leave the system as much as you can after you realize the tools they are using and the tools aren't as effective anymore? I'll tell you, you won't keep focusing on what I just mentioned to much anymore but by all means keep blabbing about Christianity (based on a person non religious scholars can't prove even existed and is perhaps just an accumulated version of other figures from other myths or equinoxes), you know the most divided and sub sectioned religion in the world with Catholics (look it up yes are a sect), protestant, Lutheran, etc I'm a real christian vs no I'm the real christian Jesus is God too vs Jesus in only the son of God nonsense. If you are christian, why are treating fellow vg members so negativity because of opinion? Like you mentioned though, all religions have their faults which is why I'm not religious. I don't need a cult to believe in a creator (if indeed there is one). In fact this thread (Saturn vs SNES) is divide and conquer, now in more ways than 1. =)

Darn cell, typo after typo automatically changing my words ha.