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redsox2013
01-29-2018, 09:04 PM
I wonder if Capcom pondered releasing these games in the U.S. Of course, in Japan they used the 4MB RAM cart, but would either game run on a stock Saturn without the RAM cart?

Capcom was a major supporter of the Saturn, so I have to imagine they considered bringing these to the U.S. Maybe they could have had a mode to run the games without the RAM cart (like Marvel Super Heroes), with fewer frames of animation.

We know that a stock Playstation couldn't run the 2 on 2 arcade mode of either game, but maybe Saturn's extra built-in RAM could have handled them without extra help.

Of course, Capcom could have released the 4MB RAM cart in the U.S. too. I'd be curious as to how much the RAM cart added to the price of these games in Japan compared to retail prices of other games.

zyrobs
01-29-2018, 09:28 PM
They never pondered releasing it in the US because the Saturn was dead by the time the games came out.

Without the RAM cart, the game could not run. It would either look like ass (nearly as bad as the Playstation) or have mid game loading when you switch (and look just a little bit better than the Playstation). Maybe, at best, they could have made tag team a ram-cart-only option, and without that the 2nd player can only be used as an assist.

Team Andromeda
01-31-2018, 08:51 AM
SEGA Europe did look into brining the Ram Cart and even told SEGA Saturn Mag the game would come to Europe. Both SEGA America and Europe were useless for not bringing both the 1 and 4 Meg RAM carts to the West. Those Carts allowed the Saturn do handle stuff not possible on the PS and give the Saturn an advantage and it would have it could have also helped with other Saturn games like Quake, Duke Nukem 3D too. Sure it would have sold not in huge numbers, but it would have showed SEGA was committed to the Saturn user and trying to support them with the best software.... Important when you are trying to get people also interested in your new console.

redsox2013
01-31-2018, 11:28 AM
I think X-Men vs. SF came out in 1997. Saturn wasn't quite dead in the U.S. at that point. That's about the time Capcom released SF Collection.

Team Andromeda
02-03-2018, 08:45 AM
I think X-Men vs. SF came out in 1997. Saturn wasn't quite dead in the U.S. at that point. That's about the time Capcom released SF Collection.

The Saturn was all but dead then, but that was no excuse for SEGA America to treat the people who did buy a Saturn like crap and not look to bring the best software over and games that the PS couldn't handle, more so why you are trying to get goodwill and people looking forward to your up coming console. if SEGA America had brought over the 4 Meg Cart, X-Men Vs Street Fighter, Grandia, Metal, Slug, Dead Or Alive, Radiant Silvergun, Shining Force complete collection it would have shown it cared about the consumer and also shown off the Saturn in a good light against the PS. Sure it would have lost SEGA a few million, but it was going to lose money if it did nothing anyway

Da_Shocker
02-04-2018, 10:27 AM
The Saturn was all but dead then, but that was no excuse for SEGA America to treat the people who did buy a Saturn like crap and not look to bring the best software over and games that the PS couldn't handle, more so why you are trying to get goodwill and people looking forward to your up coming console. if SEGA America had brought over the 4 Meg Cart, X-Men Vs Street Fighter, Grandia, Metal, Slug, Dead Or Alive, Radiant Silvergun, Shining Force complete collection it would have shown it cared about the consumer and also shown off the Saturn in a good light against the PS. Sure it would have lost SEGA a few million, but it was going to lose money if it did nothing anyway

As a fanboy I get what your saying but the DC came out and did massive numbers at first and still got slaughtered by the PS2 that seems like it took a year for any good games to come out.

Team Andromeda
02-04-2018, 12:42 PM
As a fanboy I get what your saying but the DC came out and did massive numbers at first and still got slaughtered by the PS2 that seems like it took a year for any good games to come out.

Its not a fanboy, its the fact that SEGA was rather unfairly getting a rep for bringing out consoles early and then dumping them and moving onto its next system and also the fact that the DC was never going to come to the West until 1999, so SEGA America was going to lose millions anyway even if did nothing with no games for much of 97 to 99. Sure all new software and PR support needed to be directed at the DC and its plans, but SEGA America could have brought the 4 Meg Cart over and a select few top AAA Saturn games, which were already getting high prise in Japan and most didn't need huge translation jobs ... please the faithful show support and also get some press and good review in gaming Mags. Bringing over Metal Slug, X-Men Vs Street Fighter, RSG, Grandia, Dead Or Alive , Princess Crown would do your cause a lot better than signing up the likes of Courier Crisis.

You wouldn't even had to spend much on PR for those games as the Saturn core gamer would already know about these games and wouldn't need to be told to buy them, if translated into English and it would have been nice to see Saturn games getting some nice coverage in gaming mags and I'm sure Grandia could have sold 200,000 copies on the Saturn on the back off FF 7 hype . Doing all that would have cost SEGA a few million, say 5 to 7 million, but on the back of that you would have a lot of goodwill and SEGA showing it backs the people who buy its consoles and also showed off some games that outperformed the PS

redsox2013
02-04-2018, 02:18 PM
I agree. Between mid-1998 and 9/9/99 (DC Launch in U.S.), there was nothing for Saturn. Even if they brought over some games that had already been available for a while in Japan, I think it would have been great for Saturn owners. I know I bought a PS around that time simply because I wanted new games to play.

Tower of Power
02-04-2018, 05:07 PM
Sega should have continued releasing Saturn games in the US, under a smaller label at least, maybe only mail order, like TTI did with the TurboGrafx. There were so many games that were pretty much done that it's a really short sighted business decision that they didn't do that.


As a fanboy I get what your saying but the DC came out and did massive numbers at first and still got slaughtered by the PS2 that seems like it took a year for any good games to come out.

Are you saying the PS2 or Dreamcast didn't have any good games for a year? With PS2, I agree, the first game on PS2 that was truly classic was MGS2 imo, while Dreamcast had not only an excellent launch lineup but some of its strongest titles in the first year.

Da_Shocker
02-04-2018, 07:52 PM
Its not a fanboy, its the fact that SEGA was rather unfairly getting a rep for bringing out consoles early and then dumping them and moving onto its next system and also the fact that the DC was never going to come to the West until 1999, so SEGA America was going to lose millions anyway even if did nothing with no games for much of 97 to 99. Sure all new software and PR support needed to be directed at the DC and its plans, but SEGA America could have brought the 4 Meg Cart over and a select few top AAA Saturn games, which were already getting high prise in Japan and most didn't need huge translation jobs ... please the faithful show support and also get some press and good review in gaming Mags. Bringing over Metal Slug, X-Men Vs Street Fighter, RSG, Grandia, Dead Or Alive , Princess Crown would do your cause a lot better than signing up the likes of Courier Crisis.

You wouldn't even had to spend much on PR for those games as the Saturn core gamer would already know about these games and wouldn't need to be told to buy them, if translated into English and it would have been nice to see Saturn games getting some nice coverage in gaming mags and I'm sure Grandia could have sold 200,000 copies on the Saturn on the back off FF 7 hype . Doing all that would have cost SEGA a few million, say 5 to 7 million, but on the back of that you would have a lot of goodwill and SEGA showing it backs the people who buy its consoles and also showed off some games that outperformed the PS

What does Sega bringing out all of those games accomplish? Do you honestly think Sega would've sold 200K of Grandia in the US?

Tower of Power
02-04-2018, 08:07 PM
What does Sega bringing out all of those games accomplish? Do you honestly think Sega would've sold 200K of Grandia in the US?

It would have built some consumer confidence showing that Sega doesn't abandon their hardware, which they had a reputation for especially after the 32X.

Da_Shocker
02-04-2018, 10:27 PM
It would have built some consumer confidence showing that Sega doesn't abandon their hardware, which they had a reputation for especially after the 32X.

But NONE of that had any effect of the US sales of the DC which sold 500K in 2 weeks.

Team Andromeda
02-06-2018, 11:26 AM
What does Sega bringing out all of those games accomplish? Do you honestly think Sega would've sold 200K of Grandia in the US?

It would have shown SEGA cared about the consumer and how SEGA brings out new systems early only to dump them latter on and look to bring out another system. Yes with all the FF 7 hype and the world going ape over RPGs. I'm sure SEGA could have sold 200,000 copies of the game in the USA and Europe more so as the Saturn fan was starved of quality software at that time in the West . I genunailly spoke to Rich (of SEGA Saturn Mag) about it and he was told by Sega Europe that GameArts wanted 1.5 million for the translation rights and code, becasue at that time SEGA Europe were hugly keen on bringing the game to Europe for Easter 98 but the costs were too high for them on their own.

What ever SEGA did in the west it was going to lose money, you still have to pay the staff only with no games to sale and it would have at least given the translation staff some work to do

Team Andromeda
02-06-2018, 11:28 AM
But NONE of that had any effect of the US sales of the DC which sold 500K in 2 weeks.

It did many just bought the DC as short-term fix before the PS2 came out and many didn't think that SEGA would stick with the DC for the long run.

j_factor
02-06-2018, 04:35 PM
Capcom USA fully intended to bring X-Men vs. Street Fighter to the US. But they wanted Sega to handle the RAM cart, and Bernie Stolar said no dice. Yet another instance of Bernie intentionally putting no effort into the Saturn because he was in a hurry to have the system dead and over with.

Da_Shocker
02-06-2018, 06:09 PM
It did many just bought the DC as short-term fix before the PS2 came out and many didn't think that SEGA would stick with the DC for the long run.

I legitimately knew people who bought the PSx and they actually ended up buying the DC. I had one friend that I met in 94 and he was a huge Nintendo fanboy. He ended up getting a PSX and later on an N64 he would not touch the Saturn. So the last year of high school he gets a DC. I knew one person that had a Saturn and that was my brother's friend. Nobody that I knew from school that was a gamer from 95-99 owned a Saturn. From 97-98 I couldn't find any new Saturn titles in regular brick and mortar stores because the retail support was DEAD. A majority of my US Saturn titles were purchased used from a place called Hollywood Wholesale and they had legit good titles.



Capcom USA fully intended to bring X-Men vs. Street Fighter to the US. But they wanted Sega to handle the RAM cart, and Bernie Stolar said no dice. Yet another instance of Bernie intentionally putting no effort into the Saturn because he was in a hurry to have the system dead and over with.

Could you honestly blame him outside a few hardcore fanboys nobody gave 2 shits about the Saturn anymore. Retailers weren't going to carry a dying system anymore. Yes Bernie wanted nothing to do with the Saturn and he wanted to start fresh with the DC. Look at launch of the Saturn compared to the DC and it's basically day and night. I think everyone can agree that the Saturn was one of the worst console launches ever while the DC was one of the best.

j_factor
02-06-2018, 07:08 PM
Could you honestly blame him outside a few hardcore fanboys nobody gave 2 shits about the Saturn anymore. Retailers weren't going to carry a dying system anymore. Yes Bernie wanted nothing to do with the Saturn and he wanted to start fresh with the DC. Look at launch of the Saturn compared to the DC and it's basically day and night. I think everyone can agree that the Saturn was one of the worst console launches ever while the DC was one of the best.

I absolutely blame him, he created those conditions. He took over in early 1997 right after the Saturn had sold over 500k units in the month of December 1996, and the system sold damn near zero units under his watch. That's not even much of an exaggeration. We had an old thread where we looked at the best available information on the sales. It was way too early for Sega to simply cut their losses and wait for the Dreamcast, yet he had no intention of even trying to sell the Saturn or maintain a good level of support. That was not a good move, neither in terms of helping the Dreamcast nor in the interim.

It was certainly too late to turn the Saturn around into a major success. But it easily had more sales and more life in it. He turned the Saturn from a halfway respectable yet niche position into something resembling the Atari Jaguar. Sega had zero presence for two holiday sales periods. That's not good.

Tower of Power
02-06-2018, 07:32 PM
But NONE of that had any effect of the US sales of the DC which sold 500K in 2 weeks.

Yes, the Dreamcast had a strong launch, but it did eventually fail. It was popular among gamers, but a common refrain I heard both in person and on the Internet was that people were nervous about buying the Dreamcast because of how Sega dumped the Saturn and 32X.

Da_Shocker
02-06-2018, 07:52 PM
Yes, the Dreamcast had a strong launch, but it did eventually fail. It was popular among gamers, but a common refrain I heard both in person and on the Internet was that people were nervous about buying the Dreamcast because of how Sega dumped the Saturn and 32X.

Think about this, the Dreamcast broke every single US sales record in 99. The PS2 comes out with a bunch of crappy games and absolutely obliterates the DC sales. Do you honestly think that Sega supporting the Saturn a little longer would've mattered?


I absolutely blame him, he created those conditions. He took over in early 1997 right after the Saturn had sold over 500k units in the month of December 1996, and the system sold damn near zero units under his watch. That's not even much of an exaggeration. We had an old thread where we looked at the best available information on the sales. It was way too early for Sega to simply cut their losses and wait for the Dreamcast, yet he had no intention of even trying to sell the Saturn or maintain a good level of support. That was not a good move, neither in terms of helping the Dreamcast nor in the interim.

It was certainly too late to turn the Saturn around into a major success. But it easily had more sales and more life in it. He turned the Saturn from a halfway respectable yet niche position into something resembling the Atari Jaguar. Sega had zero presence for two holiday sales periods. That's not good.

See above reply LOL

j_factor
02-06-2018, 09:27 PM
Think about this, the Dreamcast broke every single US sales record in 99. The PS2 comes out with a bunch of crappy games and absolutely obliterates the DC sales. Do you honestly think that Sega supporting the Saturn a little longer would've mattered?

You can never be certain when you say "what if" but there's lots of reasons to think it would have been a better course of action and few reasons to think it would have been worse.

It could have mattered more than you might think. Maybe EA would've been more inclined to support the Dreamcast, if the Saturn hadn't been dropped like that while EA was still supporting it. Maybe Camelot would've maintained a close relationship with Sega if the rest of Shining Force III had been translated. There is something to be said for maintaining good relations with game companies. There's a reason Stolar was fired on the eve of the DC launch. Some companies, notably Eidos, didn't want to deal with him and only decided to support the Dreamcast after he left. Imagine Tomb Raider 4 from the ground up for Dreamcast instead of a shitty afterthought port. By all accounts the DC hardware was good to work with, and its launch broke sales records in the West; yet its position with third parties, particularly Western third parties, was never great.

bultje112
02-07-2018, 02:04 AM
there is so much idiotic rambling in this topic. sega saturn had a 5% market share in 1997 in the western markets. in any normal world that means you are nothing. many retailers stopped carrying saturn stuff and you guys wanted games in late 98 and 99? like any sane retailer would carry that.

bernie stolar did absolutely everything right he could with saturn given sega's terrible financial situation and was responsible for the insane dreamcast launch.

Team Andromeda
02-07-2018, 04:10 AM
there is so much idiotic rambling in this topic. sega saturn had a 5% market share in 1997 .

That's more than the Mega CD had and yet SEGA backed that till the end. SEGA had to do something from 97 to 99, it was screwed no matter what it did, it was going to lose money. I agree Bernie did one hell of a job getting everything right for the DC, after being handed such a terrible card from Tom and co. Sadly he upset the one corp that was backing SEGA America and looked to bring some of Saturn Japan better software to the West and if Sega Europe can bring Deep Fear to the West on its own, Bernie and SEGA America should have brought over the likes of Grandia, Marvel Vs Street Fighter and a few more gems.

Team Andromeda
02-07-2018, 04:12 AM
Think about this, the Dreamcast broke every single US sales record in 99. The PS2 comes out with a bunch of crappy games and absolutely obliterates the DC sales. Do you honestly think that Sega supporting the Saturn a little longer would've mattered?


It would have to the people who bought the system and the SEGA diehards the group of people SEGA should look after 1st. Its a shame Bernie wasn't in charge of the Saturn launch, he would have done a much better job than Tom imo

Team Andromeda
02-07-2018, 04:20 AM
Yes, the Dreamcast had a strong launch, but it did eventually fail. It was popular among gamers, but a common refrain I heard both in person and on the Internet was that people were nervous about buying the Dreamcast because of how Sega dumped the Saturn and 32X.

There was a lot of that, but also one has to say SEGA Europe and Japan let SEGA America down. If the DC had done as good in the EU or Japan as it did in the USA it might have been a different story, but to be honest, SONY had so much hype, so little scrutiny from the press and then the killer E3 demo of Metal Gear Solid II that pretty much killed the dream.

SEGA Europe were run by a complete bunch of numpties in the DC days, who just screwed up everything from the game cases, wasting the PR budget on every football team in Europe (while not making sure to have a good football game) Delaying Virtual Tennis for the US open rather than Wimbledon and best of all, a huge PR TV spend on promoting Soul Calibur (the best looking game around at the time) by showing someone sending a email via the DC network, rather than footage of the game running. Beyond hopless

Da_Shocker
02-08-2018, 10:13 PM
You can never be certain when you say "what if" but there's lots of reasons to think it would have been a better course of action and few reasons to think it would have been worse.

It could have mattered more than you might think. Maybe EA would've been more inclined to support the Dreamcast, if the Saturn hadn't been dropped like that while EA was still supporting it. Maybe Camelot would've maintained a close relationship with Sega if the rest of Shining Force III had been translated. There is something to be said for maintaining good relations with game companies. There's a reason Stolar was fired on the eve of the DC launch. Some companies, notably Eidos, didn't want to deal with him and only decided to support the Dreamcast after he left. Imagine Tomb Raider 4 from the ground up for Dreamcast instead of a shitty afterthought port. By all accounts the DC hardware was good to work with, and its launch broke sales records in the West; yet its position with third parties, particularly Western third parties, was never great.

EA lost a good chunk of money by not supporting the DC. And didn't EA go to Sega and wanted to be the sole company that made sports games on the DC? Camelot made a few PSX games during that era and after there long involvement they went to Nintendo to mainly do Mario Sport games. Sure there are a handful of Golden Sun games. But I highly doubt they had specific issues with Sega Of America only releasing 1 Scenario here. Stolar was mainly fired for his insistence of the DC being 199 with the modem. SoJ wanted it to be 249. I was more interested in Tomb Raider 2 for the Saturn rather than what the DC got. The company that I specifically remember having issues with was Working Designs and that was a piss match with Bernie and Vic. Vic said he would never work with Sega as long as Bernie was there. Well he got fired and NEVER came back. And his BS excuse was the DC software sales. Which was ironic coming from a guy that catered mainly to niche systems. Besides Nintendo has done fairly well without good 3rd party support for years.

gamevet
02-09-2018, 12:46 AM
there is so much idiotic rambling in this topic. sega saturn had a 5% market share in 1997 in the western markets. in any normal world that means you are nothing. many retailers stopped carrying saturn stuff and you guys wanted games in late 98 and 99? like any sane retailer would carry that.

bernie stolar did absolutely everything right he could with saturn given sega's terrible financial situation and was responsible for the insane dreamcast launch.

Exactly!

You'd think that Tom Kelinske already looking for another job in early 1996 wasn't a big enough hint that he saw the hardware as being way too expensive to market. Bernie pretty much told SOJ what Tom was already trying to tell them, the hardware was way too expensive to compete.

Bernie gets painted as the bad guy, yet the launch of the Dreamcast in North America was the most successful to date. And even Japan couldn't market the console right in their own territory.

j_factor
02-09-2018, 12:54 AM
EA lost a good chunk of money by not supporting the DC. And didn't EA go to Sega and wanted to be the sole company that made sports games on the DC? Camelot made a few PSX games during that era and after there long involvement they went to Nintendo to mainly do Mario Sport games. Sure there are a handful of Golden Sun games. But I highly doubt they had specific issues with Sega Of America only releasing 1 Scenario here. Stolar was mainly fired for his insistence of the DC being 199 with the modem. SoJ wanted it to be 249. I was more interested in Tomb Raider 2 for the Saturn rather than what the DC got. The company that I specifically remember having issues with was Working Designs and that was a piss match with Bernie and Vic. Vic said he would never work with Sega as long as Bernie was there. Well he got fired and NEVER came back. And his BS excuse was the DC software sales. Which was ironic coming from a guy that catered mainly to niche systems.

EA made a phony offer that they knew Stolar/Sega would reject. Stolar had bought out Visual Concepts to relaunch the Sega Sports lineup and EA knew this. It was way too big of an investment to let go to waste; it was a nonstarter. EA doesn't make strongarm demands like that for any other system, and this is a company that even published a few N-Gage games. So why did they do that? I am pretty well convinced that the blame for EA's motivation lies with Bernie. Or at least a large part of it.

Bernie was absolutely right to insist on a 56k modem. I don't think he was right on the price point. If he had focus groups or something telling him it wasn't a good enough value for $249, it would've been a better move to keep the price and improve the package. Maybe build vibration into the controller and include a VMU in the box. It did feel like they were nickel and diming.

Vic Ireland was just being stubborn, however in my view his grievances with Bernie were legitimate. His later excuse was bullshit and Vic is a bit petty, but he wouldn't have been making up bullshit excuses if not for the way Bernie had acted. That may sound like I'm letting old Vic off the hook. I really feel like the onus is more on Bernie to not be shitty to developers and to cultivate good relationships, than it is on Vic Ireland (or anyone else) to suck it up and support Sega because they just "should".


Besides Nintendo has done fairly well without good 3rd party support for years.

That's true, but Sega isn't Nintendo and can't get away with what Nintendo can. Sega put out lots of kick-ass games on the DC, but that just wasn't good enough. The Dreamcast needed to be the lead platform for more high production value, hype generating games from third parties. Of the few it did have, almost all of them were from Japanese third parties, which is weird considering the system did worse in Japan. Western developers just threw ports at it, if they touched it at all. Many of those ports are good additions to the system's library, but they're not system sellers. Sega couldn't even get straight ports to release on the same day as the Playstation (or PC) versions. It's not a good look getting something like Tony Hawk months after the Playstation version, after the game's initial hype/interest has died down. And I've never seen anything claiming Sony was even trying to push developers to make all their games Playstation timed exclusives against the DC; it simply wasn't a priority for most. Most of the time the delays weren't even justified with any new content or a major visual overhaul or anything.

Soul Calibur, RE Code Veronica, Grandia II, DOA2 -- these were good. Sega needed more efforts like these. And that's whether from the West or more from Japan, but Sega did a worse job with Western developers, even though they didn't deal with Japanese developers as well as they could have either. The Dreamcast itself didn't suffer from any fatal flaws. It didn't have major hardware or development issues, it didn't have the N64's cartridge problem as GD-ROMs weren't expensive, Sega didn't have Nintendo's bone-headed policies and restrictions. Yet the Dreamcast's third party support was never hugely better than the N64's. The potential was there, there were no insurmountable roadblocks, they just failed. You can blame Peter Moore for not turning the situation around, but it was Bernie who made the situation that way from the start.

Coming back around to the OP (heh), obviously the non-release of X-Men vs. SF didn't kill Sega's working relationship with Capcom. But it's illustrative of Bernie Stolar's attitudes curtailing support rather than encouraging it, and alienating other companies.

Team Andromeda
02-09-2018, 02:34 AM
Bernie gets painted as the bad guy, yet the launch of the Dreamcast in North America was the most successful to date. And even Japan couldn't market the console right in their own territory.

Swings and roundabouts. SEGA Japan with the Saturn had one of the most Succesful launches ever in Japan and also totally outclassed and outsold SONY for 2 years too, something which SEGA America was never able to do. This system being too expensive is cop out too, the PS3 was way more expensive than the 360 yet it sold millions and ever more than the 360 despite being always being more expensive and the most difficult machine to develop to the 360. Bernie naild one part right and thats how when launching a console you focus on your development and PR on just one system and go for, not like TOM how thought trying to sell and market a multidtue of systems was the way to win. Mind you nobody beats SEGA Europe when it comes to SEGA with the MS and Mega Drive had the biggest share of the market and never allowed Nintendo to outseller either



Vic Ireland was just being stubborn, however in my view his grievances with Bernie were legitimate

Yes there were and also it wasn't just WD that stopped working for SEGA becasue of Bernie but also Dave Perry went public saying he would no longer support SEGA becasue of Bernie, bit a shame as Wild 9 was meant to be the looker on the Saturn

Team Andromeda
02-09-2018, 02:41 AM
EA lost a good chunk of money by not supporting the DC. And didn't EA go to Sega and wanted to be the sole company that made sports games on the DC? Camelot made a few PSX games during that era and after there long involvement they went to Nintendo to mainly do Mario Sport games. Sure there are a handful of Golden Sun games. But I highly doubt they had specific issues with Sega Of America only releasing 1 Scenario here. Stolar was mainly fired for his insistence of the DC being 199 with the modem. SoJ wanted it to be 249. I was more interested in Tomb Raider 2 for the Saturn rather than what the DC got. The company that I specifically remember having issues with was Working Designs and that was a piss match with Bernie and Vic. Vic said he would never work with Sega as long as Bernie was there. Well he got fired and NEVER came back. And his BS excuse was the DC software sales. Which was ironic coming from a guy that catered mainly to niche systems. Besides Nintendo has done fairly well without good 3rd party support for years.

And SEGA Europe lost a ton of sales thanks to no FIFA on the DC imo. Camelot were right to dump SEGA, SEGA Japan treated them pretty badly and didn't even invite them to submit a DC game proposal when SOJ were having a private event with perspective DC developers and that's when Camelot dropped SEGA. Sad about Tomb Raider II as the programmer of the Saturn version Jason Gosling told EDGE the Saturn version was looking incredible and enjoying using the then new SGL, shame SONY saw what the game could be and bought exclusive rights

Da_Shocker
02-13-2018, 10:38 PM
TA, The PS3 like the PS2 before it was one of the cheapest BR players out there and one of the best. But I don't remember it taking off the same way the PS2 initially did. Also it took the 360 years to move a million units in Japan. As bad as the Mega Drive did in Japan it still sold better than the 360. As for the Saturn it was not only the high price but, lack of games and lack of availability.

j_factor, Ireland ended up having publishing issues with Sony so you can't just say Stolar was completely in the wrong when Ireland ended up blatantly lying to DC fans. Karma pretty much came back and bit him in the ass.

Team Andromeda
02-14-2018, 02:29 AM
TA, The PS3 like the PS2 before it was one of the cheapest BR players out there and one of the best. But I don't remember it taking off the same way the PS2 initially did.

The PS2 cost more than the DC, it had a far weaker line up to that of the USA launch of the DC, it still sold far better. The PS3 cost a fortune, it also lacked a line up to that of the 360 and yet its outsold the 360. So you can recover from a poor launch line up or even a high price of a system. Trouble with SEGA was that America and Europe were too sure and set on the 32X being nothing less than a huge success and also spread their PR and development base far too thin, selling too many systems. Thats also to overlook despite a super High price, just an add on and also not the best launch line up how well SEGA America did with the launch of the Sega CD and how it really sold well at the start.

S

Da_Shocker
02-15-2018, 07:26 PM
The PS2 cost more than the DC, it had a far weaker line up to that of the USA launch of the DC, it still sold far better. The PS3 cost a fortune, it also lacked a line up to that of the 360 and yet its outsold the 360. So you can recover from a poor launch line up or even a high price of a system. Trouble with SEGA was that America and Europe were too sure and set on the 32X being nothing less than a huge success and also spread their PR and development base far too thin, selling too many systems. Thats also to overlook despite a super High price, just an add on and also not the best launch line up how well SEGA America did with the launch of the Sega CD and how it really sold well at the start.

S

Can you please provide me with the beginning sales comparisons of the 360 and PS3 in Europe and the US? Also Japan for whatever reason saw fit for the 32X to be released there. I think it's a bit dubious to lay blame completely on America and Europe.

Team Andromeda
02-16-2018, 12:24 AM
Can you please provide me with the beginning sales comparisons of the 360 and PS3 in Europe and the US? Also Japan for whatever reason saw fit for the 32X to be released there. I think it's a bit dubious to lay blame completely on America and Europe.

The 360 didn't sell as great as many people think, it was continually outsold by the PS2 for starters as MS had issues over supply of hardware for the 1st year, but one can overcome such issues . SONY PS3 start was hardly great but SONY recovered even after a HUGE launch price and lacking software launch line up.

You can blame SEGA America and Europe for the 32bit cock up. People forget how hugely successful the Saturn was in Japan, only for SEGA West to screw it all up. But in the DC days, it was SOA doing rather well, while Sega Japan and Europe were disappointing for DC sales.
You can recover from a poor launch and lacking line up, I mean the PSP had one of the best Pal lauches of any system and it outsold the DS for quite a few months, before Nintendo got its act together, the trouble with SEGA was it was spread to think and trying to support two 32bit systems, Handheld, Mega Drive, Mega CD and the Arcades too. It was sheer madness and not only a drain on software support but also on PR budgets and support to 3rd parties.

SEGA should have just focused on 1 32bit system and to have put all its resources and PR into that system.