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Yharnamresident
03-04-2018, 08:09 PM
No, the Snes sold better in the USA, France. Its was the UK where SEGA were true kings with both the MS and Snes outselling both the NES and MD, maybe Brazil too ?

Do you have a source? you're the first person I've seen claim SNES outsold Genesis in the US.

Leynos
03-04-2018, 09:03 PM
Do you have a source? you're the first person I've seen claim SNES outsold Genesis in the US.

I was pretty sure this was common knowledge. Genesis sales tapered off last couple years and SNES shot up, SNES sold about 24 million in the US.

Tower of Power
03-04-2018, 09:33 PM
Do you have a source? you're the first person I've seen claim SNES outsold Genesis in the US.

For every source saying one thing, you can find another saying something else, it's a contentious time for video game system sales as the reporting doesn't seem 100% accurate. Colloquial wisdom and the majority of articles I've found say that the Genesis initially outsold the SNES in the US, but was eventually overtaken after Sega dropped support:

http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/
http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/03/20/genesis-vs-snes-by-the-numbers
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~dherring/cgt141/project1/genesis/sales.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27373587

Whether that's actually accurate, I dunno, but it's definitely not an uncommon conjecture.

Yharnamresident
03-04-2018, 09:36 PM
I was pretty sure this was common knowledge. Genesis sales tapered off last couple years and SNES shot up, SNES sold about 24 million in the US.

That 24 million is for North and South America. This is straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.webcitation.org/5nXieXX2B?url=http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/library/historical_data/pdf/consolidated_sales_e0912.pdf

Damn, the GameCube appeared to have bombed in Japan.







It seems that Nintendo's huge sales of the SNES in Japan (17.7 million) have led to the general assumption that the Mega Drive was "beaten" everywhere, when in fact Japan was the only major market where this occurred. Japan's figures gave the total SNES sales a huge 49.1 million, compared to Sega's 39.7 million.

http://segatastic.blogspot.ca/2009/12/mega-drive-sales-figures-update.html

Also I don't agree with him including the Nomad in the sales figures.

BonusKun
03-04-2018, 10:09 PM
No one is denying that.

It feels like some of you are denying it. To me the SMS was a failed system in the U.S. which sucked so much since I felt it deserved way more sales but yeah, Nintendo just crushed everyone so hard that hell I had to even look up what the fuck Xavix even was. lol

gamevet
03-04-2018, 10:22 PM
It did motion control sports before the Wii did.

Leynos
03-04-2018, 10:39 PM
That 24 million is for North and South America. This is straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.webcitation.org/5nXieXX2B?url=http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/library/historical_data/pdf/consolidated_sales_e0912.pdf

Damn, the GameCube appeared to have bombed in Japan.








http://segatastic.blogspot.ca/2009/12/mega-drive-sales-figures-update.html

Also I don't agree with him including the Nomad in the sales figures.
If Nomad counts then Game Gear counts towards SMS lol. yeah I don't count it.

Black_Tiger
03-05-2018, 12:26 AM
The Nomad is a Sega Genesis cart playing Sega Genesis which connects to a TV using standard Sega Genesis video cables and uses a standard Sega Genesis power supply. It doesn't get much more Sega Genesis than that.

Although the Game Gear is part of the SMS line, it does not play SMS carts, connect to a TV screen or have a SMS controller port.

Leynos
03-05-2018, 12:36 AM
The Nomad is a Sega Genesis cart playing Sega Genesis which connects to a TV using standard Sega Genesis video cables and uses a standard Sega Genesis power supply. It doesn't get much more Sega Genesis than that.

Although the Game Gear is part of the SMS line, it does not play SMS carts, connect to a TV screen or have a SMS controller port.


https://i.imgur.com/cxhxg68.jpg

Prince Talmit
03-05-2018, 12:46 AM
Talk about moving the goalposts... So now we're talking about Sega's presence in 1980's America in general and not just the Master System and how poorly it fared on the US market?! Right, well I wish you'd have given me a heads up that you were about to change the subject in advance.
You are the one who said "There was pretty much no Sega (in the US) until the Genesis."


It feels like some of you are denying it.
Who? Where?

BonusKun
03-05-2018, 09:26 AM
You are the one who said "There was pretty much no Sega (in the US) until the Genesis."

I think I see the problem now. You took him waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too literally. He didn't mean it as in Sega didn't exist in the U.S., Only that in a lot of places in the U.S., It felt like to him, me and a lot of other people had no clue what a Sega system even was because nobody had seen nor heard anything about it. It was all Nintendo and when all you see is TV, Advertisements, Newspapers and hell even that god awful movie, Most people had no idea that Sega was even a thing back then. :(

It's not like those of us mentioning it are making this up for shits and giggles to try and piss you off. It's sadly the truth that Sega really had no real presence in the U.S. and what little they had was a gaming System that was trying to compete with Nintendo's huge market share.

I'm sure Melf can easily confirm this as well seeing as he's pretty much on par with Sega's retail history compared to most of us.

OmegaMax
03-05-2018, 10:10 AM
It's not like those of us mentioning it are making this up for shits and giggles to try and piss you off.

They're onto us!...ABORT MISSION,ABORT.

Team Andromeda
03-05-2018, 10:36 AM
It feels like some of you are denying it. To me the SMS was a failed system in the U.S. which sucked so much since I felt it deserved way more sales but yeah, Nintendo just crushed everyone so hard that hell I had to even look up what the fuck Xavix even was. lol

Hardly, I knew dominate Nintendo was, but you knew of the rival systems For all the talk of the NES, You'll never get more dominant than the PS or PS2 but you knew of the rival systems.
Did NEC Turbo 16 even beat the Master system for sales in the USA, but I bet people knew of the system

Team Andromeda
03-05-2018, 10:36 AM
https://i.imgur.com/cxhxg68.jpg

Well done.

Team Andromeda
03-05-2018, 10:37 AM
The Turbo Duo was $300 and came out too late. Even I scoffed at the price of the Duo when I saw it. And the Neo Geo was a console for the rich; it was not a mass market product.

But you knew of it, thats the point.

BonusKun
03-05-2018, 11:02 AM
But you knew of it, thats the point.

The point that he who was obviously a kid who grew up on gaming. I'm talking about normal, everyday consumers who only really knew of Nintendo. They didn't know or care about anything but that.

IrishNinja
03-05-2018, 05:26 PM
fuck me, only on here could saying something as simple as "sega barely existed in the US before the genesis" be considered controversial


The SMS was not a success in North America, but I don't think it was so obscure like some of you are making it out to be.

Mark Cerny interview: https://segaretro.org/Interview:_Mark_Cerny_(2006-12-05)_by_Sega-16


By contrast, at Sega of America, things had been going very poorly. At one point, I believe that Nintendo’s NES had a 94% market share, and the Sega Master System only had 4%… that means that Nintendo’s business was twenty-four times larger than Sega’s! So when the Genesis arrived in 1989, it came into an organization that had been through the wars and basically gotten thrashed.

barely existed


You'd walk into Block Buster and maybe see a half dozen Master System carts for rent covered in dust. Meanwhile, there would be 2 isle shelves full of NES games to rent.

i'm legit impressed you saw SMS rentals

oh and Prince Talmit -


That's not what was being said.
As has already been pointed out twice, this started with two or three dudes saying Master System "was barely existent in the U.S." or that "not exaggerating when I say the Master System was as well known in the US as the Xavix Port".
They changed their argument once they saw how full of shit they were.
Why are YOU continuing on with the Nintendo comparison, shouldn't a mod have a better grasps and critical thinking skills over what the discussion was about?

if you're gonna whine about something days later, feel free to drop my name - and i said what i said, didn't change shit.

gamevet
03-05-2018, 06:08 PM
But you knew of it, thats the point.

Yeah, because I lived and breathed video games. I know about crap like the Halcyon, because I was reading about it in the 80's. I also knew about Nintendo entering the home console market years before the NES arrived.

When friends and family would see my Saturn, they'd ask me about what it was. And that was when it was still at retail.

j_factor
03-05-2018, 07:21 PM
fuck me, only on here could saying something as simple as "sega barely existed in the US before the genesis" be considered controversial

Not really, Sega were one of the most successful arcade companies. They were well known in the early 80s "golden age" of arcades and managed to continue having steady success, in both the USA and Japan, as the golden age ended and beyond. Very few companies survived the mid-80s decline of arcades unscathed. In addition, there were several well-received Sega releases on pre-crash consoles and on computers throughout the 80s.

Just speaking on a personal note, my introduction years ago to "classic gaming" as a thing was more rooted in the arcade side of things. Sega was always one of the most talked about names. They came out with a fairly large number of games and had a strong record/reputation for innovation.


Mark Cerny interview: https://segaretro.org/Interview:_Mark_Cerny_(2006-12-05)_by_Sega-16



barely existed

First of all let's settle on whether it's Sega that barely existed or just the Master System specifically.

In regards to what Cerny said, I'm not sure that means what you say it means. I'd like to see some other examples to put that number in perspective, but I strongly suspect that in most cases, a 4% market share is not considered barely existent or unknown in the tech sector or in the business world more generally. Not a smashing success, but not something people aren't aware of.

Yharnamresident
03-05-2018, 07:28 PM
The Nomad is a Sega Genesis cart playing Sega Genesis which connects to a TV using standard Sega Genesis video cables and uses a standard Sega Genesis power supply. It doesn't get much more Sega Genesis than that.

Although the Game Gear is part of the SMS line, it does not play SMS carts, connect to a TV screen or have a SMS controller port.I think the Genesis 3 should be counted in total sales no doubt, but the Nomad is too far from the original product for me to agree with including it.



It's not like those of us mentioning it are making this up for shits and giggles to try and piss you off. It's sadly the truth that Sega really had no real presence in the U.S. and what little they had was a gaming System that was trying to compete with Nintendo's huge market share.Yea I really do wish the SMS was a major success. Because then it would be cheaper than the $80-$100 I see it going for on Craigslist, Kijiji etc.

Yharnamresident
03-05-2018, 07:37 PM
I also knew about Nintendo entering the home console market years before the NES arrived.Did you read about it in a magazine? thats some eye-popping stuff right there



When friends and family would see my Saturn, they'd ask me about what it was. And that was when it was still at retail.This is probably opening another can of seanut brittle, but the Saturn is another console I didn't know existed until 2009.

Melf
03-05-2018, 07:43 PM
Your statement "There was pretty much no Sega (in the US) until the Genesis." isn't a fact, it is an opinion.
You have that essentially meaningless undefined "pretty much" in your statement, so who is to judge the veracity of such a nebulous statement?
What is a FACT is that Sega games were very well regarded (including national print advertisements) for Atari and Coleco consoles. Sega arcade games of the mid-80's were the hottest properties: Congo Bongo, Zaxxon, Space Harrier, Out Run, Galaxy Force, After Burner, Hang On... but somehow there was "pretty much no Sega" because the NES was wildly successful? Oh ok.

Actually, you're both wrong. :p

Sega, as a subsidiary of Gulf + Western, had a solid arcade presence in the U.S. through its Sega/Gremlin division until 1983, when it was sold to a buyer group that included David Rosen and Hayao Nakaya and that was backed by CSK. The priority of this group was Japan, period. They had no interest in operating in the U.S., which is why they continued the arcade distribution deal they had with Bally. This mentality changed in 1984, in both the U.S. and Europe, and Sega began to take interest again in handling its own wares. Sega Enterprises USA was formed in 1985 to handle the arcade side of things.

The consumer side was different. Sega's computer games were farmed out for distribution to companies like Datasoft. Games for the ColecoVision and Atari machines were also not distributed by Sega. Coleco's ARD team reprogrammed the ports for the ColecoVision, Atari machines, and others. Sega Japan didn't really do anything, aside from licensing the games. Sega's first consumer presence in the U.S. after Sega Electronics was shut down in 1983 was Sega of America, but even after SOA was started in 1986, it was still little more than game counselors and product repair. It wasn't until the Genesis arrived that SOA began to beef up its operation, and that happened largely under Ken Balthaser and Joe Miller, the two VPs of Product Development during the 16-bit era.


In regards to what Cerny said, I'm not sure that means what you say it means. I'd like to see some other examples to put that number in perspective, but I strongly suspect that in most cases, a 4% market share is not considered barely existent or unknown in the tech sector or in the business world more generally. Not a smashing success, but not something people aren't aware of.

Shinobu Toyoda, Al Nilsen, and others put the number closer to 2%, actually, but I don't know how accurate that number is.


Mark Cerny interview: https://segaretro.org/Interview:_Mark_Cerny_(2006-12-05)_by_Sega-16

Ugh, dude. You linked to Sega Retro's copy/paste of our own interview? For shame! Always go with the original (http://www.sega-16.com/2006/12/interview-mark-cerny/).

gamevet
03-05-2018, 08:18 PM
Did you read about it in a magazine? thats some eye-popping stuff right there

I read it in a 1984 issue of Electonic Games and Computer Entertainment, or another obscure gaming mag I'd bought that year. I lost those magazines when my parents moved. :(


This is probably opening another can of seanut brittle, but the Saturn is another console I didn't know existed until 2009.

Don't feel bad. I knew a lot of people in the mid 90's that only knew the name Saturn as a cheap car.

Yharnamresident
03-05-2018, 08:34 PM
I had it worse. In the early 2000s my mom gave away my entire NES/SNES/Genesis collection because she thought I would never be interested in them again.


Also, its a small world. I was recently watching a video where Mark Cerny was talking with the PlayStation boss:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvLWxgNDklo

goldenband
03-05-2018, 08:42 PM
If you were paying attention to the US gaming market in 1985-1986, I'd say you probably knew about the Master System.

It's also true that paying attention at that time was a fairly niche behavior, but that probably explains some of the discord in this thread. Back in 1986, it really did seem for a bit like there were two emerging options (three if you count the Atari 7800, I suppose). Later, it didn't, and the SMS was basically irrelevant from then on in the US.

Sega certainly wasn't unknown to me, nor was the Master System; it was just that only one person I knew owned the latter -- and TBH I vaguely pitied him for owning the "loser system". Phantasy Star looked kinda cool, though.

IrishNinja
03-05-2018, 08:44 PM
yes, if i was unclear: in the divergence of the last few pages about the master system, i absolutely meant sega's console side pre-genesis. they were a big arcade presence of course.


Shinobu Toyoda, Al Nilsen, and others put the number closer to 2%, actually, but I don't know how accurate that number is.

Ugh, dude. You linked to Sega Retro's copy/paste of our own interview? For shame! Always go with the original.

damn, that's even rougher. and my bad melf! it's no secret that most of the great interviews ive seen over the years on classic sega stuff came from here.

Leynos
03-05-2018, 09:57 PM
Saturn I did know about as it had a demo station at Toys R Us. Game Peddler was the only place in town that readily sold SS games. I knew of Saturn for sure plus I still have Toys R Us ads from the era in the other room showing Saturn and it's games. Just I never thought much of it back then as PS1 and N64 were duking it out. N64 didn't move nearly as many systems but it was still very known because of Mario 64 and OoT. Every fucking magazine was saying how OoT is the greatest game ever. Not to shit on OoT as I like it just fine but for me was never on that really high pedestal.

gamevet
03-05-2018, 10:03 PM
If you were paying attention to the US gaming market in 1985-1986, I'd say you probably knew about the Master System.

It's also true that paying attention at that time was a fairly niche behavior, but that probably explains some of the discord in this thread. Back in 1986, it really did seem for a bit like there were two emerging options (three if you count the Atari 7800, I suppose). Later, it didn't, and the SMS was basically irrelevant from then on in the US.

Sega certainly wasn't unknown to me, nor was the Master System; it was just that only one person I knew owned the latter -- and TBH I vaguely pitied him for owning the "loser system". Phantasy Star looked kinda cool, though.

It was known for about as long as they'd advertised it, which was about a year between the fall of 1986 and the holidays of 1987. The public noticed it about as much as the Atari XEGS, that got one holiday push before being irrelevant.

I knew about Sega because of their arcade games and I sort of excited when I'd seen that Sega had a home console. I wasn't excited though, when the advertising showed Rocky boxing as their killer game of the holiday season.


yes, if i was unclear: in the divergence of the last few pages about the master system, i absolutely meant sega's console side pre-genesis. they were a big arcade presence of course.

Which was pretty much dead in North America until the Genesis came along.




damn, that's even rougher. and my bad melf! it's no secret that most of the great interviews ive seen over the years on classic sega stuff came from here.

I think that you'll find that most of the information being presented today is quoted from Sega-16. Melf is the fountain of Sega information these days.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-06-2018, 10:15 AM
Did you read about it in a magazine? thats some eye-popping stuff right there

This is probably opening another can of seanut brittle, but the Saturn is another console I didn't know existed until 2009.

You didn't know about the Sega Saturn until 2009?! Wow... So, just out of interest, how deep exactly was the cave you were living in? :p

Melf
03-06-2018, 11:30 AM
I was going to separate the MS discussion from this thread, but it's so mixed with everything else that I can't!


You guys are fucking retards.

First off, insulting people doesn't help you make your argument. Clam down.


Phantasy Star
Wonder Boy III
Power Base Converter
early Genesis promo offers for free Master System games

You want to address those Master System issues and how they had no presence and didn't exist?

These examples don't help your argument either. In fact, they actually undermine it. Everything you listed came out after Sega's deal with Tonka, which happened because Sega reduced its presence in the U.S. The whole reason Tonka was brought in was because Sega didn't have the presence to market and distribute the MS.


Is there an argument?
I've stated a number of facts and asked a number of questions.
Do you dispute that there were nationally televised advertisements for the Master System?
Do you dispute that the Power Base Converter was highlighted directly on the Genesis box?
Do you dispute that Master System games were dsiplayed on flip cards right along side Genesis games at ToysR Us stores?
How did Phantasy Star become a cult classic if the console it was on was non-existent in stores and homes? And Wonder Boy III?

By the time the PBC came out, Tonka was out of the picture, and Sega was essentially burning off its MS inventory in order to focus on the Genesis. Also, you do realize that the very advertising your using to to make you argument are post-Genesis launch, right? None of what you mentioned, save for the TV ads, which were few, were done pre-Genesis.


What are you reading? Did someone insist it had a presence? It existed, was stocked in stores, and was advertised, that's all I've been saying. TeamAndomeda hasn't suggested anything more I don't think. However, a couple of you guys have insisted it virtually didn't exist or however you're phrasing it, and that isn't true.


I think you took the context of "presence" too literally. Yes, it was in stores and advertised. I saw it at Play World, TRU, Service Merchandise, and other stores. I also saw the Atari 2600 Jr. at all those stores. All of them COMBINED didn't amount to 5% of the game market, so there was no real sales presence there. When your competition controls over 90% of the market, you really don't have any presence in the sales context of the word.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-06-2018, 12:48 PM
I didn't even realise that we'd been called 'fucking retards'. Charming...

BonusKun
03-06-2018, 02:03 PM
I was going to separate the MS discussion from this thread, but it's so mixed with everything else that I can't!



First off, insulting people doesn't help you make your argument. Clam down.



These examples don't help your argument either. In fact, they actually undermine it. Everything you listed came out after Sega's deal with Tonka, which happened because Sega reduced its presence in the U.S. The whole reason Tonka was brought in was because Sega didn't have the presence to market and distribute the MS.



By the time the PBC came out, Tonka was out of the picture, and Sega was essentially burning off its MS inventory in order to focus on the Genesis. Also, you do realize that the very advertising your using to to make you argument are post-Genesis launch, right? None of what you mentioned, save for the TV ads, which were few, were done pre-Genesis.




I think you took the context of "presence" too literally. Yes, it was in stores and advertised. I saw it at Play World, TRU, Service Merchandise, and other stores. I also saw the Atari 2600 Jr. at all those stores. All of them COMBINED didn't amount to 5% of the game market, so there was no real sales presence there. When your competition controls over 90% of the market, you really don't have any presence in the sales context of the word.

Now this is the post I was waiting for. So damn refreshing to see someone pull the point across backed up by facts.

Team Andromeda
03-06-2018, 02:54 PM
Yeah, because I lived and breathed video games. I know about crap like the Halcyon, because I was reading about it in the 80's. I also knew about Nintendo entering the home console market years before the NES arrived.



Yes that's what I'm on about gamers. You know you could show people a NES or C64 in the UK and they really wouldn't know what it was, as the Master system and ZX Spectrum dominated

BonusKun
03-06-2018, 02:59 PM
Yes that's what I'm on about gamers. You know you could show people a NES or C64 in the UK and they really wouldn't know what it was, as the Master system and ZX Spectrum dominated

So it was the opposite over there.

Team Andromeda
03-06-2018, 03:03 PM
fuck me, only on here could saying something as simple as "sega barely existed in the US before the genesis" be considered controversial



Don't know why one needs to swear Yes you can talk of 4% thats more than what Neo Geo had in the USA, Noone in the USA knew what the Neo Geo was. What was the Mac games sales compared to the PC in the late 80 and early 90s for gaming. I thought Mac games sales were less than 5% of the PC gaming market. Noone had heard of the Apple or the Mac.
No one in the USA heard of Outrun (untill Daytona USA the biggest selling coin up of all time) , Afterburner II in the Arcades, everyone just thought only Nintendo made games. I'm sure the Master system outsold the Turbo 16, but I bet people knew of it in the US You can talk of 4%, thats 3% more than what Philips had with the CD-i, I take it some people in the US and UK knew of that system and 4% is a lot more than NEC 0% of the gaming market in the UK, but I would imagine quite a number of gamers had heard of the PC Eng.

j_factor
03-06-2018, 04:04 PM
Sega, as a subsidiary of Gulf + Western, had a solid arcade presence in the U.S. through its Sega/Gremlin division until 1983, when it was sold to a buyer group that included David Rosen and Hayao Nakaya and that was backed by CSK. The priority of this group was Japan, period. They had no interest in operating in the U.S., which is why they continued the arcade distribution deal they had with Bally. This mentality changed in 1984, in both the U.S. and Europe, and Sega began to take interest again in handling its own wares. Sega Enterprises USA was formed in 1985 to handle the arcade side of things.

That's interesting. I didn't realize there was a significant gap in between Sega/Gremlin and Sega Enterprises.


Shinobu Toyoda, Al Nilsen, and others put the number closer to 2%, actually, but I don't know how accurate that number is.

Not sure what they mean by market share then. At the most basic level, if the SMS sold 2 million and was 2% of the market, that would mean it was part of a market of 100 million consoles in total. But that's clearly way wrong. I know market share refers more to a specific time, but the numbers would average out to be proportional to the totals.

gamevet
03-06-2018, 04:11 PM
That could also include software and the Gameboy. *And that number might not include unsold hardware at the time.
*Edit

Prince Talmit
03-06-2018, 04:23 PM
Actually, you're both wrong. :p

Sega, as a subsidiary of Gulf + Western, had a solid arcade presence in the U.S. through its Sega/Gremlin division until 1983, when it was sold to a buyer group that included David Rosen and Hayao Nakaya and that was backed by CSK. The priority of this group was Japan, period. They had no interest in operating in the U.S., which is why they continued the arcade distribution deal they had with Bally. This mentality changed in 1984, in both the U.S. and Europe, and Sega began to take interest again in handling its own wares. Sega Enterprises USA was formed in 1985 to handle the arcade side of things.

The consumer side was different. Sega's computer games were farmed out for distribution to companies like Datasoft. Games for the ColecoVision and Atari machines were also not distributed by Sega. Coleco's ARD team reprogrammed the ports for the ColecoVision, Atari machines, and others. Sega Japan didn't really do anything, aside from licensing the games. Sega's first consumer presence in the U.S. after Sega Electronics was shut down in 1983 was Sega of America, but even after SOA was started in 1986, it was still little more than game counselors and product repair. It wasn't until the Genesis arrived that SOA began to beef up its operation, and that happened largely under Ken Balthaser and Joe Miller, the two VPs of Product Development during the 16-bit era

No, I definitely wasn't wrong. The business side of things does not invalidate the public recognition of the brand "SEGA", and this whole discussion has ultimately been about public perception/awareness of Sega.

SEGA's Turbo was a 1981 hit arcade game and was marketed as a system seller for the Coleco Vision and was a prominently featured game for the premier issue of the Coleco Vision magazine in 1982 - billed as "SEGA's Turbo"
Zaxxon was a huge arcade hit which was always known as a SEGA game. Again, the home ports (across every major platform and home computer) received extensive advertising with prominent SEGA branding.
One of the biggest franchises ever received it's first arcade game and numerous home ports under the SEGA branding. Fucking Star Trek for Christ's sake. SEGA, in big bold capital print anytime anyone wanted to play the Star Trek video game.
Buck Rodgers, Congo Bongo etc, etc,
Let me hear again how there was no SEGA in the US prior to Genesis.

Who were the first few million people who bought the Genesis?
People who knew Sega from the arcade and from the Master System.
Or since some of you are so set on using sales numbers to substantiate that no one knew of Sega, doesn't it reason to say that no one knew of Sega until Sonic.
Did the Genesis not exist in the USA until Sonic was released. I mean, what was it, only a couple million Genesis sold before Sonic.
In comparison to Nintendo's sales numbers, no one would have even known about Genesis, isn't that the logic some of you are using?

BonusKun
03-06-2018, 04:51 PM
No, I definitely wasn't wrong.

I'm sorry but in this instance, you were wrong.

gamevet
03-06-2018, 04:56 PM
One of my friends bought a Genesis, because he couldn't afford a PC. He sold it to me, along with 4 games for $180, once he finally got his computer. The SEGA brand had nothing to do with his purchase.

He would raz me about my Amiga, while I'd talk crap about his broken sound PC with is ugly colors.

IrishNinja
03-06-2018, 05:52 PM
melf


By the time the PBC came out, Tonka was out of the picture, and Sega was essentially burning off its MS inventory in order to focus on the Genesis. Also, you do realize that the very advertising your using to to make you argument are post-Genesis launch, right? None of what you mentioned, save for the TV ads, which were few, were done pre-Genesis.

fuckin' thank you for this
i thought citing a few cult classics & box ads were weird enough stretches, but appreciate the details here

bonuskun


So it was the opposite over there.

...right?! it was weird enough reading retro gamer years back & learning more about their (EU) cool PC scene, but the idea of the master system dominating the NES feels like bizarro land, must've been something to see

TA


Don't know why one needs to swear Yes you can talk of 4% thats more than what Neo Geo had in the USA, Noone in the USA knew what the Neo Geo was. What was the Mac games sales compared to the PC in the late 80 and early 90s for gaming. I thought Mac games sales were less than 5% of the PC gaming market. Noone had heard of the Apple or the Mac.
No one in the USA heard of Outrun (untill Daytona USA the biggest selling coin up of all time) , Afterburner II in the Arcades, everyone just thought only Nintendo made games. I'm sure the Master system outsold the Turbo 16, but I bet people knew of it in the US You can talk of 4%, thats 3% more than what Philips had with the CD-i, I take it some people in the US and UK knew of that system and 4% is a lot more than NEC 0% of the gaming market in the UK, but I would imagine quite a number of gamers had heard of the PC Eng.

so i follow, you're saying other niche systems no one that didn't read gaming magazines on the regular (which, itself, was again pretty niche then) had heard of are evidence that...an earlier system no one had heard of was somehow more known/popular?

prince halfwit


No, I definitely wasn't wrong.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/c4573cbc2c1fdfecc3a9e4ee0f4748fc/tumblr_inline_oo2vgviKYo1qb9x1g_500.gif


The business side of things does not invalidate the public recognition of the brand "SEGA", and this whole discussion has ultimately been about public perception/awareness of Sega.

https://pics.me.me/look-fam-its-not-that-deep-1703421.png

the master system. this entire bit has been about that.
you're the one dragging in every coin-op they had (because kids bought the NES to play popeye and donkey kong), but that doesn't help the SMS in this discussion, the same way solid ports of OutRun and Space Harrier didn't help it sell back then either

i mean sure, congo bongo was great, let's really sit here & draw a venn diagram of all the kids who played that and sought out alex kidd in miracle world


Who were the first few million people who bought the Genesis?
People who knew Sega from the arcade and from the Master System.

what kind of marketing study is this? did the playstation sell because sony made good TV's and walkmen, or maybe because it had a shitton of games people wanted on it, and was offered at an affordable price?
if namebrand recognition alone carries hardware sales, why didn't the 3DO or CD-I sell gangbusters? everyone knew those brands!


Or since some of you are so set on using sales numbers to substantiate that no one knew of Sega, doesn't it reason to say that no one knew of Sega until Sonic.


you're dangerously close to getting warmer here, yes

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-06-2018, 06:11 PM
Yes that's what I'm on about gamers. You know you could show people a NES or C64 in the UK and they really wouldn't know what it was, as the Master system and ZX Spectrum dominated

Actually the C64 was very well known over here in my experience, although the ZX Spectrum was more common. I knew two kids who had a C64. Also the NES may not have been very popular but we knew what it was.

Leynos
03-06-2018, 06:22 PM
I played plenty of Outrun and Afterburner in Arcades in the 80s as well as Super Hang On. Chuck E Cheese had everything that some of the other arcades didn't. Now, this may be more me but at that time I never took notice of who made the game in an arcade. Arcades were just arcades. Playchoice I knew was Nintendo because we knew Mario and the only Playchoice machine I played was in a Pizza Hut (for those who remember the era where every Pizza Joint had arcade machines in it..oh and 7/11s). I think it was Street Fighter II and Mortal Kombat when I truly noticed who made a game on an arcade machine as those games were far more popular than Outrun. Those games took us by storm. After that, I noticed the name of who made the game I was playing in an arcade and one day I discovered a game I became addicted to. Virtua Fighter 2 in the mid-90s.

IrishNinja
03-06-2018, 06:27 PM
that's a fair point, too - as a kid, arcades were huge but cabinets not always well-kept (nevermind the lighting). i prolly sank a hundred bucks into Rastan and never noticed Taito as the bubble bobble/etc people till later, haha.

stu
03-06-2018, 08:13 PM
Actually the C64 was very well known over here in my experience, although the ZX Spectrum was more common. I knew two kids who had a C64. Also the NES may not have been very popular but we knew what it was.


Agreed, along with the Amstrad CPC464/6128. The Spectrum, C64 and Amstrad were the most popular among my friends

gamevet
03-06-2018, 09:53 PM
Actually the C64 was very well known over here in my experience, although the ZX Spectrum was more common. I knew two kids who had a C64. Also the NES may not have been very popular but we knew what it was.

EA made a living off of importing European C64 games to the United States. That's when EA was awesome, before becoming a money hungry publishing machine with no soul.

Melf
03-06-2018, 09:56 PM
No, I definitely wasn't wrong. The business side of things does not invalidate the public recognition of the brand "SEGA", and this whole discussion has ultimately been about public perception/awareness of Sega.

I agree that people knew what Sega was, but the point that I was addressing was your specific contention that Sega had no presence in the U.S. I think you're not clear on what you want to define as "presence." Did people know Sega was a game company in the U.S.? Of course. That doesn't mean the company had an established presence in the U.S. during the period. The '80s are a weird time for Sega in the U.S. It was never here in the consumer market for the first half. It's arcade division was here at the start of the decade but left. Then, it came back mid-decade in both the arcade and consumer markets. Hell, it sold its own arcade chain and bought it back, all within the span of 3 years!


SEGA's Turbo was a 1981 hit arcade game and was marketed as a system seller for the Coleco Vision and was a prominently featured game for the premier issue of the Coleco Vision magazine in 1982 - billed as "SEGA's Turbo"

Programmed by Coleco, not Sega.


Zaxxon was a huge arcade hit which was always known as a SEGA game. Again, the home ports (across every major platform and home computer) received extensive advertising with prominent SEGA branding.

Programmed by Coleco and other companies like Datasoft, not Sega.


One of the biggest franchises ever received it's first arcade game and numerous home ports under the SEGA branding. Fucking Star Trek for Christ's sake. SEGA, in big bold capital print anytime anyone wanted to play the Star Trek video game.

This was done by Sega/Gremlin shortly before Sega pulled out of the U.S.


Buck Rodgers, Congo Bongo etc, etc,

Both done in Japan and merely localized in the U.S. Congo Bongo was one of the last Sega Electronics games, coming a mere 5 months before its SE's assets were sold to Bally/Midway.


Let me hear again how there was no SEGA in the US prior to Genesis.

Again, you need to contextualize what you mean by presence. The company was certainly releasing games here, but its consumer titles were farmed out, and the arcade presence was off and on. Also, many of the arcade games we now consider classics didn't fare well when released. Congo Bongo did poorly initially, Choplifter didn't do well at all. Some were slow burns.


Who were the first few million people who bought the Genesis?
People who knew Sega from the arcade and from the Master System.

Doubtful, since it took Sega over a year to sell a million Genesis units. Not doing so cost Mike Katz his job.


Or since some of you are so set on using sales numbers to substantiate that no one knew of Sega, doesn't it reason to say that no one knew of Sega until Sonic.
Did the Genesis not exist in the USA until Sonic was released. I mean, what was it, only a couple million Genesis sold before Sonic.
In comparison to Nintendo's sales numbers, no one would have even known about Genesis, isn't that the logic some of you are using?

Again, context is everything. You don't want to use sales numbers, but you don't define what you mean by presence. And why wouldn't sales numbers be a good metric for measuring success? Ask any game company if they'd rather be known or have their games sell; see which one they answer.

Yes, the Genesis was there from 1989-1991, but no one really cared much until Sonic hit. Sonic was what really gave the console momentum in the U.S. I'm sure the Genesis would have done well enough to last a bit, but it was Sonic that helped topple Nintendo's monopoly.

Yharnamresident
03-07-2018, 12:03 AM
You didn't know about the Sega Saturn until 2009?! Wow... So, just out of interest, how deep exactly was the cave you were living in? :pIts hard to know about a console you've never seen, during retail years or after retail years. In fact, the first Saturn I saw was the one I purchased on Craigslist.


I didn't even realise that we'd been called 'fucking retards'. Charming...I did, and I wore it as a badge of honour

gamevet
03-07-2018, 12:53 AM
Yes, the Genesis was there from 1989-1991, but no one really cared much until Sonic hit. Sonic was what really gave the console momentum in the U.S. I'm sure the Genesis would have done well enough to last a bit, but it was Sonic that helped topple Nintendo's monopoly.

I would include EA sports, especially Madden. I had friends that really weren't into video games, but they would play the Madden games. Sega not having an NFL game for the Saturn hurt it in North America, during 1995, when the PlayStation had NFL Gameday. Looking back at the Dreamcast in North America, the NFL 2K games were in the top 3 of best sellers for the system.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-07-2018, 02:39 AM
I would include EA sports, especially Madden. I had friends that really weren't into video games, but they would play the Madden games. Sega not having an NFL game for the Saturn hurt it in North America, during 1995, when the PlayStation had NFL Gameday. Looking back at the Dreamcast in North America, the NFL 2K games were in the top 3 of best sellers for the system.

It's interesting to see just how important sports games are in deciding how well a games console sells over in America, both now and in the past. I mean in some cases it almost seems to be a deal breaker as to whether a console is a success or not. I would argue that, besides the success of the original Sonic the Hedgehog, the Genesis sold as well as it did in the states precisely because of the sheer number of quality sports titles available for it courtesy of EA. By comparison the SNES really had a very poor selection of sports titles. The point you make about the Saturn and Dreamcast really hammers that fact home for me. Don't get me wrong, we love sports games here too, and EA's FIFA franchise has always been a big seller ever since it's first appearance on the Mega Drive, but it's not the be all and end all for us, and how well a console sells over here isn't related to how many golf, rugby or soccer games are available for it. I suppose I find the relative cultural differences and tastes between countries very interesting, certainly when factoring in how well a certain games console sells in different markets.

Team Andromeda
03-07-2018, 06:17 AM
Actually the C64 was very well known over here in my experience, although the ZX Spectrum was more common. I knew two kids who had a C64. Also the NES may not have been very popular but we knew what it was.

The C64 was killed in sales in the UK by the Zx spectrum, that system sold over 3 million units, it outsold the NES, and Super Nintendo in the UK. I knew of the CBS system the PC Eng, even if their sold like crap in The UK or in NECs case not at all

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-07-2018, 11:19 AM
The C64 was killed in sales in the UK by the Zx spectrum, that system sold over 3 million units, it outsold the NES, and Super Nintendo in the UK. I knew of the CBS system the PC Eng, even if their sold like crap in The UK or in NECs case not at all

The C64 may well have been killed in sales by the Speccy, but it was still very well known here.

BonusKun
03-07-2018, 11:58 AM
I agree that people knew what Sega was, but the point that I was addressing was your specific contention that Sega had no presence in the U.S. I think you're not clear on what you want to define as "presence." Did people know Sega was a game company in the U.S.? Of course. That doesn't mean the company had an established presence in the U.S. during the period. The '80s are a weird time for Sega in the U.S. It was never here in the consumer market for the first half. It's arcade division was here at the start of the decade but left. Then, it came back mid-decade in both the arcade and consumer markets. Hell, it sold its own arcade chain and bought it back, all within the span of 3 years!



Programmed by Coleco, not Sega.



Programmed by Coleco and other companies like Datasoft, not Sega.



This was done by Sega/Gremlin shortly before Sega pulled out of the U.S.



Both done in Japan and merely localized in the U.S. Congo Bongo was one of the last Sega Electronics games, coming a mere 5 months before its SE's assets were sold to Bally/Midway.



Again, you need to contextualize what you mean by presence. The company was certainly releasing games here, but its consumer titles were farmed out, and the arcade presence was off and on. Also, many of the arcade games we now consider classics didn't fare well when released. Congo Bongo did poorly initially, Choplifter didn't do well at all. Some were slow burns.



Doubtful, since it took Sega over a year to sell a million Genesis units. Not doing so cost Mike Katz his job.



Again, context is everything. You don't want to use sales numbers, but you don't define what you mean by presence. And why wouldn't sales numbers be a good metric for measuring success? Ask any game company if they'd rather be known or have their games sell; see which one they answer.

Yes, the Genesis was there from 1989-1991, but no one really cared much until Sonic hit. Sonic was what really gave the console momentum in the U.S. I'm sure the Genesis would have done well enough to last a bit, but it was Sonic that helped topple Nintendo's monopoly.

I think I'm going to need some ointment for the amount of burn Melf just dumped in this thread.

cleeg
03-07-2018, 12:00 PM
I loved my C64, vs the Speccy it was like the forerunner to the 16Bit wars. I also loved my mate's Spectrum 128K with built in floppy drive, a fabulous machine.

stu
03-07-2018, 01:48 PM
So it was the opposite over there.


TA is half right in that the Master System outsold the NES in the UK. But as for his point regarding Spectrum vs C64 all I have to say is :rofl:


The C64 was killed in sales in the UK by the Zx spectrum


So you're distorting facts again so that it fits with the warped narrative that you are attempting to portray eh TA?
Undoubtedly the Spectrum was the top seller between itself and the C64, mostly because it cost half as much, but to say that the C64 was "killed in sales" compared to the Spectrum is bullshit pure and simple. Fact is the Spectrum and C64 was the top two 8 bit computers in the UK for most of the 80's, closely followed by the Amstrad CPC range and the Acorn BBC Model B.

Frankly you trying to say that the C64 was as unsuccessful in the UK as as the Master System was in the US is laughable and I have to seriously reconsider your credibility as far as your knowledge of the 80's UK games market goes, because you obviously don't know squat.


I think I'm going to need some ointment for the amount of burn Melf just dumped in this thread.

I think it will be Prince Talmit that will need the ointment. Ironic after he created this thread a few years ago -> http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?30143-Butt-Hurt-the-childish-bust-that-gamers-love

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-07-2018, 02:08 PM
Interesting stuff Stu! I knew that the Speccy sold better but I too was baffled by the assertion that we wouldn't know what a C64 was if we saw one.

Prince Talmit
03-07-2018, 02:12 PM
I agree that people knew what Sega was, but the point that I was addressing was your specific contention that Sega had no presence in the U.S. I think you're not clear on what you want to define as "presence." Did people know Sega was a game company in the U.S.? Of course. That doesn't mean the company had an established presence in the U.S. during the period. The '80s are a weird time for Sega in the U.S. It was never here in the consumer market for the first half. It's arcade division was here at the start of the decade but left. Then, it came back mid-decade in both the arcade and consumer markets. Hell, it sold its own arcade chain and bought it back, all within the span of 3 years!



Programmed by Coleco, not Sega.



Programmed by Coleco and other companies like Datasoft, not Sega.



This was done by Sega/Gremlin shortly before Sega pulled out of the U.S.



Both done in Japan and merely localized in the U.S. Congo Bongo was one of the last Sega Electronics games, coming a mere 5 months before its SE's assets were sold to Bally/Midway.



Again, you need to contextualize what you mean by presence. The company was certainly releasing games here, but its consumer titles were farmed out, and the arcade presence was off and on. Also, many of the arcade games we now consider classics didn't fare well when released. Congo Bongo did poorly initially, Choplifter didn't do well at all. Some were slow burns.



Doubtful, since it took Sega over a year to sell a million Genesis units. Not doing so cost Mike Katz his job.



Again, context is everything. You don't want to use sales numbers, but you don't define what you mean by presence. And why wouldn't sales numbers be a good metric for measuring success? Ask any game company if they'd rather be known or have their games sell; see which one they answer.


Yes, the Genesis was there from 1989-1991, but no one really cared much until Sonic hit. Sonic was what really gave the console momentum in the U.S. I'm sure the Genesis would have done well enough to last a bit, but it was Sonic that helped topple Nintendo's monopoly.
Yes context is everything, so why are you misconstruing this to be about where the games were developed, etc.
I asked multiple times for people (MDBowsely) to clarify what they meant by "presence".
I did contextualize what I meant by presence, pay attention here: "public perception/awareness of Sega".
I clearly stated; and again in the post you just replied to, that I was talking about gamers' awareness of the brand SEGA.
It doesn't matter who programmed Turbo. How do you even think that is relevant to what I wrote? just as you continue on about where the other games were programmed, or where assets were transferred. Seriously, how does that even matter to how people saw the name SEGA at the time?
When the name SEGA is emblazoned on a package, or on the side of an arcade cabinet, or on the masthead and featured articles in gaming magazines of the day, or in advertisements in comic books and other pop culture magazines, then gamers are aware of SEGA.



I think it will be Prince Talmit that will need the ointment. Ironic after he created this thread a few years ago -> http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?30143-Butt-Hurt-the-childish-bust-that-gamers-love[/FONT]
I don't see the "burn" or the irony.

Melf misconstruing the subject does not produce any burn for me. Sorry to disappoint you boys.

Melf
03-07-2018, 02:28 PM
Yes context is everything, so why are you misconstruing this to be about where the games were developed, etc.
I asked multiple times for people (MDBowsely) to clarify what they meant by "presence".
I did contextualize what I meant by presence, pay attention here: "public perception/awareness of Sega".
I clearly stated; and again in the post you just replied to, that I was talking about gamers' awareness of the brand SEGA.
It doesn't matter who programmed Turbo. How do you even think that is relevant to what I wrote? just as you continue on about where the other games were programmed, or where assets were transferred. Seriously, how does that even matter to how people saw the name SEGA at the time?
When the name SEGA is emblazoned on a package, or on the side of an arcade cabinet, or on the masthead and featured articles in gaming magazines of the day, or in advertisements in comic books and other pop culture magazines, then gamers are aware of SEGA.


I don't see the "burn" or the irony.

Melf misconstruing the subject does not produce any burn for me. Sorry to disappoint you boys.

I'm sorry. I must have "misconstrued" your argument after you changed it. You started off by ranting about no one knowing about the Master System - the console, and now you're talking about Sega as a whole. I've addressed both of those, so unless you want to change your argument a third time, I think I've answered you.

OmegaMax
03-07-2018, 02:44 PM
13935

Someone is moving the goal post to suit their views/opinions.

Prince Talmit
03-07-2018, 02:45 PM
I'm sorry. I must have "misconstrued" your argument after you changed it. You started off by ranting about no one knowing about the Master System - the console, and now you're talking about Sega as a whole. I've addressed both of those, so unless you want to change your argument a third time, I think I've answered you.

Look nimrod, my points about Sega being in the arcades and game magazines etc, is clearly in response to this:

There is nothing factually wrong with my statement of "There was pretty much no Sega (in the US) until the Genesis."

Your comments about where the games were programmed or where assets were transferred etc does not address "public perception/awareness of Sega". How intellectually corrupt of you to assert it does.

Just one of your intellectually corrupt views:

No, I definitely wasn't wrong. The business side of things does not invalidate the public recognition of the brand "SEGA", and this whole discussion has ultimately been about public perception/awareness of Sega.
SEGA's Turbo was a 1981 hit arcade game and was marketed as a system seller for the Coleco Vision and was a prominently featured game for the premier issue of the Coleco Vision magazine in 1982 - billed as "SEGA's Turbo"



(re Turbo) Programmed by Coleco, not Sega.

Oh OK, so the feature article in the Coleco Magazine which billed "SEGA'S Turbo" is irrelevant because the game was programmed by Coleco?

Of course you just bow out because your points had no relevance in the first place.

OmegaMax
03-07-2018, 02:49 PM
Mega Drive Bowlsey is referring to Sega in the overall console market,which would make his statement true based on sales of segas home consoles in North America.It's clear he wasn't talking about all of segas development,activities ect...

Leynos
03-07-2018, 02:53 PM
Look nimrod, my points about Sega being in the arcades and game magazines etc, is clearly in response to this:


Your comments about where the games were programmed or where assets were transferred etc does not address "public perception/awareness of Sega". How intellectually corrupt of you to assert it does.

I posed direct questions to you so you could clarify why you think the games' programmers or Sega assets relate to public perception/awareness of the name SEGA.
Of course you just bow out because your points had no relevance in the first place.

Quoting so he can't edit his insult the admin. lol

https://i.imgur.com/LdaAHnj.jpg

Madden: Heres a guy who will likely get a penalty, when you insult the admin you are are are are are are likely to be to be to be banned.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-07-2018, 02:53 PM
Look nimrod, my points about Sega being in the arcades and game magazines etc, is clearly in response to this:


Your comments about where the games were programmed or where assets were transferred etc does not address "public perception/awareness of Sega". How intellectually corrupt of you to assert it does.

Of course you just bow out because your points had no relevance in the first place.

Your arrogance is exceeded only by your charm. The original point was in relation to how well the Master System fared in the US, not Sega's activities in general. I honestly don't understand why you're so angry and why you're having such trouble understanding the points we all made.

Melf
03-07-2018, 02:56 PM
Look nimrod

First of all, watch the attitude and take that shit somewhere else. If you can't have an adult discussion, then you can spend a week in time out. First and only warning.


my points about Sega being in the arcades and game magazines etc, is clearly in response to this:

Your points were specifically addressing the Master System, not Sega as a company. You morphed your argument over the next few pages.


Your comments about where the games were programmed or where assets were transferred etc does not address "public perception/awareness of Sega". How intellectually corrupt of you to assert it does.

You should take what I said about context more seriously. Those points addressed the contention that Sega was practically not operating in the U.S. What's intellectually corrupt is your complete omission to my first reply to you, regarding how the points you made about the PBC, Wonder Boy and other things all happened AFTER Tonka had taken over, specifically because Sega was unable to generate any sales response by itself. All that public perception in arcades and magazines you drone on about? It meant dick in regards to getting people to actually BUY their console.


Of course you just bow out because your points had no relevance in the first place.

No, I addressed both your arguments. I think you should probably bow out for a while and cool off, since you're incapable of discussing things like an adult and would rather insult people and simply dismiss things you don't agree with than have a logical discussion. That behavior doesn't help you make your point, bro.

Prince Talmit
03-07-2018, 03:09 PM
Your points were specifically addressing the Master System, not Sega as a company. You morphed your argument over the next few pages.

Is this what they call gaslighting? There was no morph, there is a clear and direct response to a quoted statement from another poster.

I didn't see your post about Tonka, and I really don't care to bother now.

if this is what you call "addressing my arguments", then what can really be accomplished here?

The business side of things does not invalidate the public recognition of the brand "SEGA", and this whole discussion has ultimately been about public perception/awareness of Sega.
SEGA's Turbo was a 1981 hit arcade game and was marketed as a system seller for the Coleco Vision and was a prominently featured game for the premier issue of the Coleco Vision magazine in 1982 - billed as "SEGA's Turbo"



(re Turbo) Programmed by Coleco, not Sega.

So the feature article in the Coleco Magazine which billed "SEGA'S Turbo" is irrelevant because the game was programmed by Coleco?
Got it, dude.


Quoting so he can't edit his insult the admin. lol

I thought you had me on ignore?

Melf
03-07-2018, 03:13 PM
Is this what they call gaslighting? There was no morph, there is a clear and direct response to a quoted statement from another poster.

I could quote your own posts if it would help.


I didn't see your post about Tonka, and I really don't care to bother now.

Ah, who's bowing out now? Easier to dismiss than counter, I suppose.


if this is what you call "addressing my arguments", then what can really be accomplished here?

Given your responses thus far, not much, apparently.


So the feature article in the Coleco Magazine which billed "SEGA'S Turbo" is irrelevant because the game was programmed by Coleco?
Got it.

I did address it in my previous reply:


All that public perception in arcades and magazines you drone on about? It meant dick in regards to getting people to actually BUY their console.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-07-2018, 03:14 PM
Come on, just admit it. You changed your argument and moved the goalposts just like I said you did. You jumped from discussing the Master System to talking about Sega in general. You can't deny it.

Prince Talmit
03-07-2018, 03:17 PM
I did address in my previous reply:

"All that public perception in arcades and magazines you drone on about? It meant dick in regards to getting people to actually BUY their console."

Except I've never been talking about buying consoles or sales number. So how does that apply to my statements about gamer's perception and awareness of Sega? It doesn't.

When countering means going on about irrelevant programming and asset transfers I really don't have time for you.

Prince Talmit
03-07-2018, 03:19 PM
Come on, just admit it. You changed your argument and moved the goalposts just like I said you did. You jumped from discussing the Master System to talking about Sega in general. You can't deny it.

Yes, I responded to your comment that "there was pretty much no Sega in the US until Genesis" This has been well established, the quotes and the posts are still there. I was done talking about Master System, and I made a reply to you where I quoted exactly what I was replying to, but this is moving goalposts??

Melf
03-07-2018, 03:21 PM
Oh good grief. You really can't see how the two are related? How if your product doesn't sell, public perception of you just MIGHT be an issue? Ok then, let me describe to you why that's relevant.

By the time the MS came out, home video games were pretty much toxic in the U.S. What you fail to account for, and which has a LOT of weight in this, is Tonka's involvement. Everyone wonders why Sega sought a toy company with no game experience (but don't wonder why it chose the former CEO of Mattel to be its head?) and don't realize that Tonka was the one that had to be convinced. It wanted nothing to do with games after the crash, and it came aboard because it got a really sweet deal. When that went sour, it and Sega mutually parted ways.

So, by 1986, Sega was not making games in the U.S., the arcade market was in a downturn, and home games were in really bad shape. Sega's good standing in 1980 meant little when pushing the MS half a decade later. The home console industry was quite different by the time the MS hit. Sega's public image as a gamemaker wasn't enough, plain and simple. The name did not sell Master Systems, and Sega had no corporate presence to push the product (see how that fits in there?). That's why Tonka was brought aboard and why public perception of Sega at the time meant nothing.

Prince Talmit
03-07-2018, 03:23 PM
Oh good grief. You really can't see how the two are related? How if your product doesn't sell, public perception of you just MIGHT be an issue? Ok then, let me describe to you why that's relevant.

By the time the MS came out, home video games were pretty much toxic in the U.S. What you fail to account for, and which has a LOT of weight in this, is Tonka's involvement. Everyone wonders why Sega sought a toy company with no game experience (but don't wonder why it chose the former CEO of Mattel to be its head?) and don't realize that Tonka was the one that had to be convinced. It wanted nothing to do with games after the crash, and it came aboard because it got a really sweet deal. When that went sour, it and Sega mutually parted ways.

So, by 1986, Sega was not making games in the U.S., the arcade market was in a downturn, and home games were in really bad shape. Sega's good standing in 1980 meant little when pushing the MS half a decade later. That's why Tonka was brought aboard and why public perception of Sega at the time meant nothing.

Very good.

So what have we established here?
That the Master System and Sega virtually almost sorta pretty much did not exists in the US until Genesis/Sonic?
Is that what this was all about?

IrishNinja
03-07-2018, 05:30 PM
i like the point made a few pages back about the understated importance of sports games in the US - EA really lifted up the genesis, and that bit about NFL2K being among the top selling DC software says a lot too

but back to this mess...melf:


Then, it came back mid-decade in both the arcade and consumer markets. Hell, it sold its own arcade chain and bought it back, all within the span of 3 years!

my god
i had no idea about that last bit, but it sounds like the most sega like decision i've heard in a while, haha

prince halfwit


or in advertisements in comic books and other pop culture magazines, then gamers are aware of SEGA.

if you're gonna go all over the map with anecdotal bits: can you show me some of those comic book & pop culture mag advertisements for the SMS? i must've missed em


Look nimrod, my points about Sega being in the arcades and game magazines etc, is clearly in response to this:

i know melf already addressed this, but: if we could create an alternate reality where chef boyardee had alex kidd on cans of spathetti-o's found in 2 stores in bosie, idaho, no doubt you'd wheel that out here too - and it would be added to the small list of sega's efforts that sadly didn't work on gaining them sales/relevance that gen


I didn't see your post about Tonka, and I really don't care to bother now.

way to have a discussion in good faith

back to melf


All that public perception in arcades and magazines you drone on about? It meant dick in regards to getting people to actually BUY their console.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Melf again.


By the time the MS came out, home video games were pretty much toxic in the U.S. What you fail to account for, and which has a LOT of weight in this, is Tonka's involvement. Everyone wonders why Sega sought a toy company with no game experience (but don't wonder why it chose the former CEO of Mattel to be its head?) and don't realize that Tonka was the one that had to be convinced. It wanted nothing to do with games after the crash, and it came aboard because it got a really sweet deal. When that went sour, it and Sega mutually parted ways.

yeah, when you put it like that, their efforts to have an ill-fated relationship with tonka & then scooping up kalinske show a clear pattern, one rooted in the understanding that these would be marketed as toys.
as an aside, it's crazy how much of this foundation sony took to build its PSX platform later on

OmegaMax
03-07-2018, 06:17 PM
if we could create an alternate reality where chef boyardee had alex kidd on cans of spathetti-o's

I'd certainly purchase Alex Kidd Spaghettios in that alternate reality,I'd purchase them in this reality also.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-07-2018, 06:20 PM
i like the point made a few pages back about the understated importance of sports games in the US - EA really lifted up the genesis, and that bit about NFL2K being among the top selling DC software says a lot too

but back to this mess...melf:



my god
i had no idea about that last bit, but it sounds like the most sega like decision i've heard in a while, haha

prince halfwit



if you're gonna go all over the map with anecdotal bits: can you show me some of those comic book & pop culture mag advertisements for the SMS? i must've missed em



i know melf already addressed this, but: if we could create an alternate reality where chef boyardee had alex kidd on cans of spathetti-o's found in 2 stores in bosie, idaho, no doubt you'd wheel that out here too - and it would be added to the small list of sega's efforts that sadly didn't work on gaining them sales/relevance that gen



way to have a discussion in good faith

back to melf



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Melf again.



yeah, when you put it like that, their efforts to have an ill-fated relationship with tonka & then scooping up kalinske show a clear pattern, one rooted in the understanding that these would be marketed as toys.
as an aside, it's crazy how much of this foundation sony took to build its PSX platform later on

Oh absolutely. Sony took more than one leaf out of Sega's book when it came to marketing their Playstation. They really almost copied the edgy, coming-of-age attitude that embodied Sega's marketing for the Mega Drive/Genesis.

BonusKun
03-07-2018, 07:14 PM
Very good.

So what have we established here?
That the Master System and Sega virtually almost sorta pretty much did not exists in the US until Genesis/Sonic?
Is that what this was all about?

You really are being obtuse about the whole thing just so you can win an internet argument.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-07-2018, 07:19 PM
You really are being obtuse about the whole thing just so you can win an internet argument.

I'm not the only one who got that vibe then? Good to know.

BonusKun
03-07-2018, 07:51 PM
I'm not the only one who got that vibe then? Good to know.

Why hasn't anyone made a cheesy photoshop of Alex Kidd on a can of Chef Boyardee yet?

IrishNinja
03-07-2018, 08:47 PM
i don't know, but i'd love to see it

gamevet
03-07-2018, 09:08 PM
The C64 may well have been killed in sales by the Speccy, but it was still very well known here.

It was quite popular in the UK. The rivalry between it and the Speccy was quite real there, so much so, that Retro Gamer's Commodore 64 book also is their Spectrum book on the back half.



http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13938&d=1520471241



http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13939&d=1520471255

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-07-2018, 09:13 PM
Yep, like I said it was a very popular system.

gamevet
03-07-2018, 09:30 PM
Oh yeah. TA is full of it.

OmegaMax
03-07-2018, 09:38 PM
Why hasn't anyone made a cheesy photoshop of Alex Kidd on a can of Chef Boyardee yet?


i don't know, but i'd love to see it



https://s13.postimg.org/w5epxqah3/81-_Onrm7_POL._SL1500.png

IrishNinja
03-07-2018, 11:17 PM
https://i.imgur.com/dFcjwb2.jpg

Team Andromeda
03-08-2018, 01:37 AM
It was quite popular in the UK. The rivalry between it and the Speccy was quite real there, so much so, that Retro Gamer's Commodore 64 book also is their Spectrum book on the back half.




It was horribly outsold by the Spectrum, even the Amstrad sold better in the UK didn't it. And how well did the TurboGrafx-16 sell in the USA, much better than the Master System sales in the USA? How well did the Neo Geo sell in the USA, much better than the Master systems 2 millon. How many USA TV adverts can you post for the Neo Geo system?. You make it sound like the Master system sold nothing and didn't even have any sort of TV adverts or any sort of press coverage, Its userbase in the USA wasn't far off that of the SEGA's Saturn, way better than the Mega CD or 32X or systems like the Neo Geo.

There are lots of books from Retrogamer, that doesn't mean they did well you know, Hell Retrogamer do books on the Saturn, a system that sold less than the Master system and did just as bad that the Saturn in the USA (both around the 2 million mark) and sold poor in Europe too RG also did one on Dreamcast another system that sold like crap in the UK and was horribly outsold by its rivals.
Instead of saying people of full of it, What were the worldwide sales of the C64 to the Master system ? Then maybe you could tell me the sales of the Neo Geo AES in the USA and the TurboGrafx-16 in the USA.

Team Andromeda
03-08-2018, 01:41 AM
Yep, like I said it was a very popular system.

So because Retro do a book that makes it a popular system? I'll have to remember than for the DC and Saturn. Both systems than couldn't beat Master System worldwide sales. And here's me thinking the DC and Saturn were flops, Live and learn.
Think there's a difference between having a cult following, to actually do well at retail.

Leynos
03-08-2018, 01:51 AM
How can you nimrods ignore the amazing cereal that was everywhere in the US promoting Alex Kidd!? He was so popular we wanted to eat him! Proof!
https://i.imgur.com/NgQVV4r.jpg

Yharnamresident
03-08-2018, 12:16 PM
Alex Kidd has the charisma of a rotten potato.

BonusKun
03-08-2018, 12:21 PM
Alex Kidd has the charisma of a rotten potato.

You take that back or I'm gonna send to you hell!

Leynos
03-08-2018, 02:25 PM
Alex Kidd has the charisma of a rotten potato.

Wouldn't that be a rice ball?

Yharnamresident
03-08-2018, 02:47 PM
Wouldn't that be a rice ball?Yea, sure.


You take that back or I'm gonna send to you hell!Perhaps that was a little too harsh, but common compare him to Sonic, Sonic is filled with charisma to the brim.

IrishNinja
03-08-2018, 06:43 PM
we really need to start an Alex Kidd Defense Force over here one day


And how well did the TurboGrafx-16 sell in the USA, much better than the Master System sales in the USA? How well did the Neo Geo sell in the USA, much better than the Master systems 2 millon. How many USA TV adverts can you post for the Neo Geo system?. You make it sound like the Master system sold nothing and didn't even have any sort of TV adverts or any sort of press coverage, Its userbase in the USA wasn't far off that of the SEGA's Saturn, way better than the Mega CD or 32X or systems like the Neo Geo.

sure, let's ignore changes in the size of the market, # of players on the field and tons of other factors while you're doing whatever this is that you do

we're arguing a few pages back on sources saying the SMS had from 2-4% of the market share here in the states. if you want to bring the n-gage's sales into this in some effort to not make that look abysmal/barely existent, be my guest, i bet that thing had an ad somewhere that no one saw too

Leynos
03-08-2018, 07:56 PM
By the time N-gage hit the market we had 3 active consoles on the market. GBA selling with DS and PSP on the horizon 1 year out. PC gaming was in full swing with boxed PC games readily sold on store shelves. While collectors editions were not every game we still saw them in the PS2 era and special controllers fro RE4, Onimusha, DQ, DK, Guitar Hero and others. E3 was just starting to transition into people at home paying attention. Websites were in the swing like GameSpot and IGN. Gaming Magazines were popular and sold as an add-on with your Gamestop card subscription. For a couple years we had an entire channel dedicated to gaming in G4 (before they bought TechTV and descended into the mess we now know it for) Spike channel started the VGAs. We had loads of video game movies at this point. What is my point? A very fucking different era when N-gage launched than SMS. N-gage is mostly forgotten now but back then it had coverage on major news sites as Nokia was promoting it to kill Nintendo's "kiddy" handheld.It had demo stations in Gamestop with a PS1 port of Pandemonium. It had quite a few ads about playing online. Nothing that memorable but they were there. After about a year I think everyone just forgot about it. Ads faded, stores stopped carrying it and the side talking became a meme online.


This pic is the first of many of N-gage side talking. Over the years people mostly forgot about the thing but in no way can someone compare the era of NES/SMS with N-gage.

https://i.imgur.com/6dbC4Yh.jpg

IrishNinja
03-08-2018, 08:04 PM
right, i used that example at random, since TA is bringing everything but the kitchen sink in his weird, context-less argument that the SMS was somehow known/viable over here, which i'm going to assume is partly to cover his weird bit on how the c64 didn't sell or something

like, i found an SMS ad on YT, but i don't know where it came from, cause i'd never even heard of someone seeing it in the day. the ads i keep hearing about in pop magazines likewise seem nonexistent, and yeah the niche hardcore gaming mags covered some of their games in small sections, but the notion that the SMS saw an advertising push over here is kinda laughable.

Leynos
03-08-2018, 08:06 PM
No worries weren't referring to you but I see some before come to such silly conclusions before and just in case a couple people come in and call us names and say SMS was known in the US more than we lead on.

gamevet
03-08-2018, 09:38 PM
It was horribly outsold by the Spectrum, even the Amstrad sold better in the UK didn't it. And how well did the TurboGrafx-16 sell in the USA, much better than the Master System sales in the USA? How well did the Neo Geo sell in the USA, much better than the Master systems 2 millon. How many USA TV adverts can you post for the Neo Geo system?. You make it sound like the Master system sold nothing and didn't even have any sort of TV adverts or any sort of press coverage, Its userbase in the USA wasn't far off that of the SEGA's Saturn, way better than the Mega CD or 32X or systems like the Neo Geo.

There are lots of books from Retrogamer, that doesn't mean they did well you know, Hell Retrogamer do books on the Saturn, a system that sold less than the Master system and did just as bad that the Saturn in the USA (both around the 2 million mark) and sold poor in Europe too RG also did one on Dreamcast another system that sold like crap in the UK and was horribly outsold by its rivals.
Instead of saying people of full of it, What were the worldwide sales of the C64 to the Master system ? Then maybe you could tell me the sales of the Neo Geo AES in the USA and the TurboGrafx-16 in the USA.

Don't be naive. The C64 book having the Spectrum on the other side shows the rivalry between the 2 computers. If you actually read the magazines, you'd often see the ribbing that they do at the C64, because the Speccy was the UK's pride and joy, and the C64 was its biggest rival there. It's no different than the rivalry between SNES and Genesis fans, while nobody cares to bother dissing on the TG-16, because it was so out of the picture in North America and Europe. And guess what? The UK is getting a C64 Mini. http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/29/commodore-64-mini-console-coming-out-in-2018-with-over-35-games-6965332/


I'll just leave this here, so that you can educate yourself on the subject.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUnjoztg1Fg




The rest of that shit you can argue with someone else about.

stu
03-08-2018, 10:55 PM
Don't be naive. The C64 book having the Spectrum on the other side shows the rivalry between the 2 computers. If you actually read the magazines, you'd often see the ribbing that they do at the C64, because the Speccy was the UK's pride and joy, and the C64 was its biggest rival there. It's no different than the rivalry between SNES and Genesis fans, while nobody cares to bother dissing on the TG-16, because it was so out of the picture in North America and Europe. And guess what? The UK is getting a C64 Mini. http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/29/commodore-64-mini-console-coming-out-in-2018-with-over-35-games-6965332/


I'll just leave this here, so that you can educate yourself on the subject.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUnjoztg1Fg




The rest of that shit you can argue with someone else about.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to gamevet again.

I pointed that out to him yesterday as well. TA is just too full of shit to get it.

Team Andromeda
03-09-2018, 01:17 AM
My man, They all were nothing compared to Nintendo at that time. Pricing, Marketing and overall sales made it hard as hell to compete with Nintendo having such a huge market share.

I think he's referring to the time Nintendo actually bullied some retailers over the whole Game Genie mess.

All corps will try it on. I know in the UK SEGA wouldn't allow some retailers to stock Mega Drive games unless that also stocked the Game Gear, SEGA like Nintendo were also fined for price fixing in Europe (Nintendo were done twice mind). Its called BIG business

Team Andromeda
03-09-2018, 01:25 AM
Don't be naive. The C64 book having the Spectrum on the other side shows the rivalry between the 2 computers.

Of course, they were rivals, they were two different corps selling a similar product. Do we really need youtube to tell us that?. Retrogamer has books on the DC and Saturn, now last time I checked both systems sold less than the ZX Spectrum in the UK, and the Saturn sold about the same as the Master system in the USA.

So I take it no one knows of the Saturn in the USA, no one knows of the DC in the UK or that SEGA and SONY were rivals and I guess the Japanese don't know of the XBox given its total lame sales in Japan.
I love the way you dodge the question... How many units did the Turbograf 16 sell in the USA,maybe you could tell me how many units the AES Neo Geo sold in the USA, more than the Master Systems 2 million?

You can, by all means, use Retrogamer or Youtube to give the answer. Because if ones belives Retrogamer, the Turbografx 16 was meant to be, a bit of a flop in the USA, was that true?

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-09-2018, 04:55 AM
Kim Justice is awesome, I watch her videos a lot. She really knows her stuff.

Team Andromeda
03-09-2018, 06:54 AM
Kim Justice is awesome, I watch her videos a lot. She really knows her stuff.

I thought she was a he?. Yeah it's a nice channel but I rather Dan Wood channel myself, though TBH what that's got to with The C64 being a big of a flop in the UK and killed in sales but the ZX Spectrum, I don't know 😂

stu
03-09-2018, 12:50 PM
TBH what that's got to with The C64 being a big of a flop in the UK and killed in sales but the ZX Spectrum, I don't know 

LOL I think the better question is, how does the NES outselling the Master System by a factor of 12/1 in the US in your convoluted and distorted mind somehow compares to the sales of the C64 vs the Spectrum in the UK and the C64 being a "big flop" in your own words.

Trying answering that question TA.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-09-2018, 01:54 PM
I thought she was a he?. Yeah it's a nice channel but I rather Dan Wood channel myself, though TBH what that's got to with The C64 being a big of a flop in the UK and killed in sales but the ZX Spectrum, I don't know 😂

I could be wrong but I believe Kim is transgender and identifies as female.

gamevet
03-09-2018, 03:45 PM
Of course, they were rivals, they were two different corps selling a similar product. Do we really need youtube to tell us that?. Retrogamer has books on the DC and Saturn, now last time I checked both systems sold less than the ZX Spectrum in the UK, and the Saturn sold about the same as the Master system in the USA.

Sales rivals, meaning C64 also had a large chunk of the market.

Retro gamer has not released their big books with DC or Saturn. Their other big books are Hardware Guides 1-3, Atari, Amiga and the 50/50 book (just like C64/Spectrum) Mega-Drive/SNES.


So I take it no one knows of the Saturn in the USA

Did you not read that I'm not discussing that BS any further? The last time you kept going on with inane garbage, I blocked your posts for several months.

Team Andromeda
03-09-2018, 04:22 PM
LOL I think the better question is, how does the NES outselling the Master System by a factor of 12/1 in the US .

Easy, the PS outsold the Sega Saturn in the USA by a bigger margin, even you Playstation Generation crew, would have heard of the Saturn. The PC ENG never made it out in the UK, but I guess some in the UK knew of it, even though the Zx Spectrum smashed the C64 for sales in the UK, some would have known of the C64 in the UK. In fact the ZX Spectrum was so HUGE in the UK that Toys R Ys very 1st run of UK advert showed Jeffrey playing a ZX Spectrum, even Jerrefry knew the Zx Spectrum was massive in the UK

Team Andromeda
03-09-2018, 04:26 PM
Sales rivals, meaning C64 also had a large chunk of the market.
Rival is a Rival no matter the sales, like how the Neo Geo Pocket to the GB and GG, but got smashed by both. I take it you never heard of the Neo Geo Pocket given it was outsold by massive amounts and also had next to no 3rd party support
And why don't you post sales of the TurboGrafx 16 in the USA, never heard of that system too, since it was horribly outsold by not just Nintendo,but SEGA too.

IrishNinja
03-09-2018, 06:47 PM
and the Saturn sold about the same as the Master system in the USA.


it's sooooo crazy how the market had no changes from 1986 to 1995, nor sega's momentum/namebrand recogntion (at that stage, not earlier from congo bongo or what have you), etc etc

but let's continue with your list of things which are perfectly analogous somehow


How many units did the Turbograf 16 sell in the USA,maybe you could tell me how many units the AES Neo Geo sold in the USA, more than the Master Systems 2 million?

the reason dude dodged this question is because it's dumb, but i've got time today, so here goes:

by most estimates ive seen, the turbo sold sub 1 million units. it had even less recognition than the SMS, in a fiercely competitive market, and while it saw more marketing than the SMS did (NEC likely had more resources than sega's first attempt years prior), it still sold like ass.

the neo-geo is an outlier that cost a shit-ton and was very much a high-market item that saw software releases for a good decade or so there, pricing itself above the PS3 like 15 years earlier, most stuff ive read says it likewise sold less than a million.

no idea what piss poor argument you're trying to construe with this knowledge, but there it is


Because if ones belives Retrogamer, the Turbografx 16 was meant to be, a bit of a flop in the USA, was that true?

unequivocally yes? i don't know that i've ever seen anyone argue otherwise

gamevet
03-09-2018, 06:58 PM
Rival is a Rival no matter the sales, like how the Neo Geo Pocket to the GB and GG, but got smashed by both. I take it you never heard of the Neo Geo Pocket given it was outsold by massive amounts and also had next to no 3rd party support
And why don't you post sales of the TurboGrafx 16 in the USA, never heard of that system too, since it was horribly outsold by not just Nintendo,but SEGA too.

You might want to consider taking some adult education courses. You most definitely don't understand what a true rival is.

https://www.google.com/search?ei=-gmjWr2NLs-UzwLcprroCg&q=rivals+definition&oq=Rivals+d&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l10.4749.5360.0.6973.2.2.0.0.0.0.79.142.2. 2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.141...0i67k1.0.yIEotu_yDX8

Rivals

verb
3rd person present: rivals
1.
compete for superiority with; be or seem to be equal or comparable to.
"the efficiency of the Bavarians rivals that of the Viennese"

noun
plural noun: rivals

a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity.
"he has no serious rival for the job"

a person or thing that equals another in quality.
"she has no rivals as a female rock singer"



Since I'm looking at definitions, here are a couple of others that I feel are fitting for this response.

Denial

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denial?src=search-dict-box

a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality of something (such as a statement or charge)



Obtuse

https://www.google.com/search?ei=AgqjWruEIsqizwLv_b3oCw&q=obtuse+definition&oq=Obtuse&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i67k1j0i131k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i67k1j0l5.12 5443.128843.0.131009.14.9.0.1.1.0.87.621.8.9.0.... 0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..6.7.482.0..0i131i67k1.61.tHtSdGULpn0

ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äbˈt(y)o͞os/Submit
adjective
1.
annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
"he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"

stu
03-09-2018, 07:04 PM
Easy, the PS outsold the Sega Saturn in the USA by a bigger margin, even you Playstation Generation crew, would have heard of the Saturn. The PC ENG never made it out in the UK, but I guess some in the UK knew of it, even though the Zx Spectrum smashed the C64 for sales in the UK, some would have known of the C64 in the UK. In fact the ZX Spectrum was so HUGE in the UK that Toys R Ys very 1st run of UK advert showed Jeffrey playing a ZX Spectrum, even Jerrefry knew the Zx Spectrum was massive in the UK

None of that is relevant, I don't care about the Saturn sales, PS1 sales or the PC Engine sales.

The point is, the NES destroyed the Master System and everything else in the market and held a 95% share of the game market in the US. The Spectrum by comparison was in a close fight between itself, the C64 and CPC464/6128 machines in the UK and never had the dominance that the NES enjoyed in the US. How anyone (namely you) could argue that they are comparable is obviously smoking some really wacky shit.

Sales:

ZX Spectrum - 5 million+ machines sold approx

CPC464/6128 - 3 million

Still trying to find exact lifetime UK sales for the C64 (I've found a figure of 17 million worldwide) but I bet it will fall somewhere between the Spectrum and the Amstrad.

gamevet
03-09-2018, 08:17 PM
You'll never find a direct answer about C64 sales. Tramiel claims 30 million, while people using motherboard batch numbers as evidence state between 17 and 19 Million. I have 2 breadbox models that are supposed to only have around 150,000 units, yet I found them so easily.

Europe in general is hard for tracking sales of anything video game related. They don't even have exact numbers for the 16-bit consoles, just estimates.

OmegaMax
03-09-2018, 08:46 PM
You'll never find a direct answer about C64 sales. Tramiel claims 30 million, while people using motherboard batch numbers as evidence state between 17 and 19 Million. I have 2 breadbox models that are supposed to only have around 150,000 units, yet I found them so easily.

Europe in general is hard for tracking sales of anything video game related. They don't even have exact numbers for the 16-bit consoles, just estimates.

Yes that is true and I've seen others debate those numbers on c64 forums.It most likely is between 17 and 19 Million and not 30 million,either way that is quite a lot of units sold.

zyrobs
03-09-2018, 09:45 PM
Tramiels 30 million might have been the units made, not sold. However I do wonder how he got that figure considering that the machine was kept being made for a decade after he fucked off from Commodore.

Also consider that things like serviced units might also count, and they might not show up in serials if they, for example, used a unit entirely to fix the guts of a broken one. So the serials might be lower than expected. Or maybe even higher. Still, at least they give an estimate that is based on at least some science, and not marketing hogwash.

gamevet
03-09-2018, 10:27 PM
Tramiels 30 million might have been the units made, not sold. However I do wonder how he got that figure considering that the machine was kept being made for a decade after he fucked off from Commodore.

Also consider that things like serviced units might also count, and they might not show up in serials if they, for example, used a unit entirely to fix the guts of a broken one. So the serials might be lower than expected. Or maybe even higher. Still, at least they give an estimate that is based on at least some science, and not marketing hogwash.

Yeah, I'm sure he might have fudged the numbers a little to keep the stock holders happy, but you can only fudge so much. Also, I don't think that the C64 had some kind of long warranty. It probably had a 90 day warranty and when it broke, you took it to the local repair shop.


The C64 was selling for over a decade. Tramiel claimed that during its peak years (for around 3 years) it was selling between 150k-200k a month. It was still selling very well when they tried to introduce the Amiga in 1985 and even the C128 had a hard time selling because of the 64, even though the 128 had a C64 mode. I have a bundle that was called Test Pilot and was being sold at stores like Babbages in the late 80s. I vaguely remember seeing it, but I found the bundle around June of last year.


http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13965&d=1520648449



http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13966&d=1520648474




http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tnl/attachment.php?attachmentid=80229&d=1493080334

stu
03-09-2018, 11:12 PM
You'll never find a direct answer about C64 sales. Tramiel claims 30 million, while people using motherboard batch numbers as evidence state between 17 and 19 Million. I have 2 breadbox models that are supposed to only have around 150,000 units, yet I found them so easily.

Europe in general is hard for tracking sales of anything video game related. They don't even have exact numbers for the 16-bit consoles, just estimates.


Yeah I have been finding that out. :) Most of the figures I've seen have 12.5 million on the low side or the 17-19 mill that most websites cite. The closest I've been to isolating the UK numbers was when I read that machines with a serial number starting with KU xxxx were all manufactured in Germany and were all PAL systems, however that sounds like it may not be true either are users saying that they have KU boards in the US with NTSC compatibility, the other thing is that there was no totals as far as machines made with these serial numbers.

Of course its a waste of time since TA is just spewing crap as usual. :bang:

gamevet
03-10-2018, 01:23 AM
Yeah I have been finding that out. :) Most of the figures I've seen have 12.5 million on the low side or the 17-19 mill that most websites cite. The closest I've been to isolating the UK numbers was when I read that machines with a serial number starting with KU xxxx were all manufactured in Germany and were all PAL systems, however that sounds like it may not be true either are users saying that they have KU boards in the US with NTSC compatibility, the other thing is that there was no totals as far as machines made with these serial numbers.

Of course its a waste of time since TA is just spewing crap as usual. :bang:

I just think that all of the recent data is so low-ball. I lived in a town of 3500 people and I knew a lot of people with C64s. When I lived in Phoenix from 1986 to 1989, I had a Commodore store as big as many Game Stop stores you see today; It had a massive amount of software lining the shelves. You'd even see C64 games in book stores at the mall. Just looking at how huge the market for the Amiga was in Europe, I'd think it would be safe to say that the C64 also had quite a large following over there.

zyrobs
03-10-2018, 01:41 AM
C64 was gigantic in Europe. And yeah it sold great even next to Amigas, mostly because it had shit load of software and literature available already, and also because the Amiga was too expensive and the initial software was buggy as heck. IIRC it wasn't until the Amiga 500 that the machine started selling better.

Didn't Escom (who bought Commodore's stuff after they went bankrupt) restart C64 manufacturing? Or was it only Amigas?

Team Andromeda
03-10-2018, 03:06 AM
You might want to consider taking
So we have you use our friend Google. You seem to have missed the point, that if a system sells terribly and doesn't get 3rd party support then people in the USA don't know about it, that was meant to be the case with the Master System if we listen to some on YouTube.
So what were the sales of the Neo Geo AES in the USA, what were the sales of the TurboGrax 16 in the USA, or even the Neo Geo pocket, better or worse than the Master system 2 million?.

Was USA gaming coverage so hopeless and so bias, that unless it was Nintendo, or a number 1 selling system in the USA, nobody else had a look it in the 80s. I'm Happy that I grew up in a Country that covered gaming around the world (that even covered systems not even released in the country) where I didn't miss out on SEGA classics like the Wonderboy series, Alex Kidd, Phantasy Star and was able to play SEGA amazing coin ups like OutRun, Power Drift, AB II. Super Hang-On. Feel so sorry for those USA gamers that missed out on all that, and didn't know they was a world out there and not only Nintendo did gaming, my mistake. So glad to be a SEGA Boy.



BTW Retrogamer 'do' have a book on the likes of the Neo Geo and Dreamcast too. They have the complete quide to the Neo, the Dreamcast and plenty of other systems that didn't sell that great . I mean the DC didn't sell any better than the Master system.

gamevet
03-10-2018, 03:38 AM
So we have you use our friend Google.

Yeah, it's nearly incomprehensible sentences like this that make me think that you might want to check out some adult education courses to improve your reading and writing skills.



You seem to have missed the point, that if a system sells terribly and doesn't get 3rd party support then people in the USA don't know about it, that was meant to be the case with the Master System if we listen to some on YouTube.
So what were the sales of the Neo Geo AES in the USA, what were the sales of the TurboGrax 16 in the USA, or even the Neo Geo pocket, better or worse than the Master system 2 million?.

No, you've completely missed the points presented to you by many members of this board, including the owner Melf.


Was USA gaming coverage so hopeless and so bias, that unless it was Nintendo, or a number 1 selling system in the USA, nobody else had a look it in the 80s. I'm Happy that I grew up in a Country that covered gaming around the world (that even covered systems not even released in the country) where I didn't miss out on SEGA classics like the Wonderboy series, Alex Kidd, Phantasy Star and was able to play SEGA amazing coin ups like OutRun, Power Drift, AB II. Super Hang-On. Feel so sorry for those USA gamers that missed out on all that, and didn't know they was a world out there and not only Nintendo did gaming, my mistake. So glad to be a SEGA Boy.

The people that read those magazines were not the average consumer. Do you honestly think that the majority of NES owners actually read a gaming magazine? Here's an example of a North American gaming magazine (this is in my collection) from 1990. The cover totally suggests that they are willing to examine and explore every gaming platform available during that time, without any bias. I can tell you from my own personal experience that most of the people I knew (that had a passing interest in video games)) knew nothing about the Sega Saturn, yet knew plenty about the PlayStation and N64.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13967&d=1520666947




]BTW Retrogamer 'do' have a book on the likes of the Neo Geo and Dreamcast too. They have the complete quide to the Neo, the Dreamcast and plenty of other systems that didn't sell that great . I mean the DC didn't sell any better than the Master system.

Provide evidence, because I have seen pretty much every magazine and big book offering that Retro Gamer has had to offer in North America. Retro Gamer never had a big book issue of the Dreamcast. I would have bought it, if they had the big book on the console.

Team Andromeda
03-10-2018, 04:33 AM
No, you've completely missed the points presented to you by many members of this board

Hardly. If one person on Youtube makes out that no one knew of the MS in the USA because it was outsold by a massive amount and didn't get much 3rd party support, then it follows no one knew of the Neo Geo AES in the USA or even the Turbografx 16 for the exact same reasons to do with the MS.


Do you honestly think that the majority of NES owners actually read a gaming magazine?
And you base this on what set of statistics . I have no idea, but one would think if so many people were into videogames at the time, that then would like to read about it. In just the same way the S Mag (Master system mag) did very well in the UK, or Amiga Format Ect.


I knew (that had a passing interest in video games)) knew nothing about the Sega Saturn, yet knew plenty about the PlayStation and N64.
Well I was only being Sarcastic, but you seem to confirm, that unless you're the number 1 selling system in the USA or Nintendo you didn't get a look in. How ignorant USA gamers were, in the 80s and 90s.


Provide evidence, because I have seen pretty much every magazine

I subscribe to Retrogamer thank you very much, I'm quite aware of their specials. Here you go, we even have books on the BBC Micro a system that I doubt many people ever remember, much less a system that sold than well even in the UK. (awaits the line that Ebook don't count)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4799/40722660571_9d90076c28_o.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4772/40722659921_2d7dfe514a_o.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4781/40679791172_354f9218e9_o.jpg

BonusKun
03-10-2018, 05:05 AM
Well I was only being Sarcastic, but you seem to confirm, that unless you're the number 1 selling system in the USA or Nintendo you didn't get a look in. How ignorant USA gamers were, in the 80s and 90s.

I'll thank you to please watch your tone when making broad comments like this. You're being borderline offensive since you're dismissing so many people who actually lived in the United States when these systems were out.

Leynos
03-10-2018, 05:42 AM
Most kids who read a gaming magazine in the late 80s early 90s in the US was Nintendo Power. For some odd reason, they never talked about SEGA in that magazine.

Team Andromeda
03-10-2018, 05:47 AM
I'll thank you to please watch your tone when making broad comments like this. You're being borderline offensive since you're dismissing so many people who actually lived in the United States when these systems were out.

ignorant is hardly offensive, it means a lack of knowledge. Which is exactly the case for USA Nintendo NES fans, who made up 94% of the USA gaming market. Not a clue that they were other systems or gaming companies like SEGA, If I'meant to believe what people post here or from a YouTube channel.
Actually, I don't think the USA gamer was that ignorant, actually knew of other gaming systems, but just had no interest in buying them (THAT is different and have said so) . I'm actually sticking up for the 80s gamer in the USA!

BonusKun
03-10-2018, 09:12 AM
ignorant is hardly offensive, it means a lack of knowledge.

To some people here in the U.S., Calling someone ignorant in the context you're using it in is offensive. Don't challenge me on this one. I'm just going to give you a friendly warning on that one and ask you to choose your words more carefully.

Team Andromeda
03-10-2018, 09:50 AM
To some people here in the U.S., Calling someone ignorant in the context you're using it in is offensive. Don't challenge me on this one. I'm just going to give you a friendly warning on that one and ask you to choose your words more carefully.

Well, lets cut to the chase. If we are to go on that 94% of the USA gaming market belonged to Nintendo, did those Nintendo USA gamers know of rival corps or systems? If they didn't, then by default they are ignorant (but not intentionally) or if they did, then they just didn't care or want Nintendo rival products (which Is what I feel was more the case).
So which is it?

gamevet
03-10-2018, 11:29 AM
Well, lets cut to the chase. If we are to go on that 94% of the USA gaming market belonged to Nintendo, did those Nintendo USA gamers know of rival corps or systems? If they didn't, then by default they are ignorant (but not intentionally) or if they did, then they just didn't care or want Nintendo rival products (which Is what I feel was more the case).
So which is it?

I guess people in Europe are ignorant too, since they bought less Saturns and Dreamcasts than the ignorant Yanks on the other side of the pond? :roll:

Most magazines had less than 2 million readers per month. You idnorantly think that even close to 5% of gamers actually read gaming magazines, when they don't.

And on the subject of your digital Retro Gamer magazines, none of those are the big book issues and there's no risk with those since they didn't put them in print. I'm pretty sure they aren't near 100 pages of reading either.

BonusKun
03-10-2018, 12:38 PM
Well, lets cut to the chase. If we are to go on that 94% of the USA gaming market belonged to Nintendo, did those Nintendo USA gamers know of rival corps or systems? If they didn't, then by default they are ignorant (but not intentionally) or if they did, then they just didn't care or want Nintendo rival products (which Is what I feel was more the case).
So which is it?

I don't really care either way sir. I'm just asking you to stop with those kind of comments. Ok?

Team Andromeda
03-10-2018, 02:18 PM
I don't really care either way sir. I'm just asking you to stop with those kind of comments. Ok?

Since you ask, I love America... Florida is the best holiday ever, thanks to the USA, I can enjoy video games, Arcades, Consoles the Internet and SEGA. All thanks to the USA.

GOD bless America and I really mean that BTW

BonusKun
03-10-2018, 02:23 PM
Since you ask, I love America... Florida is the best holiday ever, thanks to the USA, I can enjoy video games, Arcades, Consoles the Internet and SEGA. All thanks to the USA.

GOD bless America and I really mean that BTW

>.>lol I'm just gonna pretend you've had a few drinks tonight.

Thierry Henry
03-10-2018, 02:40 PM
As we speak I'm bellowing out the Star-Spangled Banner over here.

OmegaMax
03-10-2018, 02:55 PM
Since you ask, I love America... Florida is the best holiday ever, thanks to the USA, I can enjoy video games, Arcades, Consoles the Internet and SEGA. All thanks to the USA.

GOD bless America and I really mean that BTW

:shock::lawl:

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-10-2018, 04:35 PM
Since you mentioned it, TA, the BBC Micro was also fairly popular in the UK. We had one installed in our classroom at primary school back in 1990, and I know that thousands of other schools up and down the country also had and used BBC Micro computers to teach us kiddywinks the basics of computer use. It all went way over my head I might add (I struggled to turn the damn thing on!), but I was hooked on the games, especially Granny's Garden! Who else remembers Granny's Garden? :)

stu
03-10-2018, 06:52 PM
Since you mentioned it, TA, the BBC Micro was also fairly popular in the UK. We had one installed in our classroom at primary school back in 1990, and I know that thousands of other schools up and down the country also had and used BBC Micro computers to teach us kiddywinks the basics of computer use. It all went way over my head I might add (I struggled to turn the damn thing on!), but I was hooked on the games, especially Granny's Garden! Who else remembers Granny's Garden? :)

Yep it was part of the UK government's push to put computers in to schools. Designed by Acorn for the BBC's Computer Literacy Project. I remember when they 1st got the BBC micro at my primary school. Fun times as my Dad had just bought our ZX Spectrum at the time.

Barone
03-10-2018, 07:37 PM
As we speak I'm bellowing out the Star-Spangled Banner over here.
Make sure to hit all the notes properly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhtFZiyxZtI

Unlike Fergie.

Leynos
03-10-2018, 07:39 PM
And remember the words, unlike Carl Lewis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kU9XwcOIfI

gamevet
03-10-2018, 08:32 PM
:lol:

Team Andromeda
03-11-2018, 03:25 AM
>.>lol I'm just gonna pretend you've had a few drinks tonight.

Of course, weekend, not working and footy day. Looking over that I really do love America. All my holidays there have been the best and the people just so friendly and helpful, in stark contrast to those Cheese eating surrender monkeys.
But in all seriousness .. USA Made SEGA, USA Invented the internet, USA Invented the Arcades, USA invented consoles, Hell the USA invented gaming itsself. So too right I love the USA and if that's not enough, since the horrible day SEGA pulled out, I've been an XBot and haven't sold my soul to the Devil (SONY) and much rather the XBox consoles.
Most prob the one of the few on here, that had no time for the PS2 and likes of the XBox One over the PS4 and last time I checked Microsoft was American.

GOD Bless the USA

Team Andromeda
03-11-2018, 03:34 AM
Yep it was part of the UK government's push to put computers in to schools. Designed by Acorn for the BBC's Computer Literacy Project. I remember when they 1st got the BBC micro at my primary school. Fun times as my Dad had just bought our ZX Spectrum at the time.

I do know thanks, Shall I also use the line of my friend had a BBC Micro (we used to play Elite on it, while also watching Ice Pirates on VHS video) or how my school used to have a ton of them and instead of learning typing tutor on it We used to play REVs, Thrust (amazing game) and Mr Do on them. Good times, Also Acon/ARM makes one proud to be British as they were the pioneers of the RISC CPUs back in the day and my school also had 1 Acorn Archimedes and we used to play PacMania, which looked amazing on it, back them.

Happy memories still don't change how the ZX Spectrum totally outsold the C64 or BBC Micro though.

Team Andromeda
03-11-2018, 03:44 AM
I guess people in Europe are ignorant too, since they bought less Saturns and Dreamcasts than the ignorant Yanks on the other side of the pond? :roll:.

No very true, they were all SONY sheep. So sad to see so many people think SONY invented consoles or how FF7 was the 1st RPG made. The joys of the PlayStation Generation and forums like NeoGAF.



none of those are the big book issues and there's no risk with those since they didn't put them in print.

Whats the definition of a manual. I think its a book of information.... and like I said Retrogamer did a Manual on the DC and Neo Geo. Like usual you aren't quite there with the facts
Now how about you give me the facts on how well did the Neo Geo AES and TurboGrafx 16 sell in the USA . I can only assume that the more you refuse to answer the question, You either don't know or do know that they didn't outsell the MS in the USA; So that's yet more systems gamers of the USA didn't know about of the time. GOD alive they missed out on so much good gaming both inthe Homes and Arcades and all for a Love of Nintendo and the crap that was the NES.

DO me a favour and plug me into a SEGA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYKgFCW-f78

Thierry Henry
03-11-2018, 03:57 AM
https://jackwoodard.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/god-bless-america-2.jpg

Team Andromeda
03-11-2018, 04:15 AM
https://jackwoodard.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/god-bless-america-2.jpg

Be proud, Its a wonderful country and it also invented video games, Internet and consoles. How can any country top that?

Thierry Henry
03-11-2018, 04:17 AM
https://d1p42fqrbwqdsw.cloudfront.net/campaigns/background_images/000/013/279/web/America-ThunderclapInTheaters.png?1404498428

gamevet
03-11-2018, 04:38 AM
No very true

Is English your 1st language?


they were all SONY sheep. So sad to see so many people think SONY invented consoles or how FF7 was the 1st RPG made. The joys of the PlayStation Generation and forums like NeoGAF.

Captain Clueless to the rescue!



Whats the definition of a manual. I think its a book of information.... and like I said Retrogamer did a Manual on the DC and Neo Geo. Like usual you aren't quite there with the facts
Now how about you give me the facts on how well did the Neo Geo AES and TurboGrafx 16 sell in the USA . I can only assume that the more you refuse to answer the question, You either don't know or do know that they didn't outsell the MS in the USA; So that's yet more systems gamers of the USA didn't know about of the time. GOD alive they missed out on so much good gaming both inthe Homes and Arcades and all for a Love of Nintendo and the crap that was the NES.

I'm with the facts. I asked you to present big book issues of Retro Gamer that covered those console. Digital magazines with no collector value is not the same thing.


Don't lump me in with the NES drones. I was a C64 gamer long into the late 80's, and didn't get the NES until @1989, only because I wanted to play Super Mario Bros. and Punchout!!!

Team Andromeda
03-11-2018, 05:00 AM
I'm with the facts. I asked you to present big book issues of Retro Gamer that covered those console. Digital magazines with no collector value is not the same thing.



And I did, a lovely big book with some 200 pages of Neo Geo or DC goodness. Like usual you, you have been caught out and the pathetic cop out of digital doesn't count, is fooling nobody. Since you like answers to questions...How about you answer the simple question of how many units did the Neo Geo AES and Turbgrafx 16 sell in the USA. Just the facts please and I'll take digital media too.


and didn't get the NES until @1989, only because I wanted to play Super Mario Bros. and Punchout

Yet another Nintendo fan.. My GOD there's not many SEGA fans on this board and to think I get grief for liking the SNES and from people who LOVE Nintendo or SONY for added irony.

Looks like only me and Joe were SEGA boys growing up

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-11-2018, 09:19 AM
And I did, a lovely big book with some 200 pages of Neo Geo or DC goodness. Like usual you, you have been caught out and the pathetic cop out of digital doesn't count, is fooling nobody. Since you like answers to questions...How about you answer the simple question of how many units did the Neo Geo AES and Turbgrafx 16 sell in the USA. Just the facts please and I'll take digital media too.



Yet another Nintendo fan.. My GOD there's not many SEGA fans on this board and to think I get grief for liking the SNES and from people who LOVE Nintendo or SONY for added irony.

Looks like only me and Joe were SEGA boys growing up

I'm a bigger Sega fan than you are because I only collect Sega stuff and you like the smelly SNES so there! (since this is all getting childish I thought I'd start having some fun with playground style banter) Haha! You like Mario! Sonic is way better than Mario! :p

TrekkiesUnite118
03-11-2018, 09:21 AM
Yet another Nintendo fan.. My GOD there's not many SEGA fans on this board and to think I get grief for liking the SNES and from people who LOVE Nintendo or SONY for added irony.

Looks like only me and Joe were SEGA boys growing up

So getting an NES in 1989 makes him a Nintendo fan automatically? That's rather silly logic. If I told you I got a Gamecube in 2001 with my Paper Route money would you say I'm a Nintendo fan who didn't grow up with Sega? Because if you did you'd be wrong as the first console I had was a Genesis I got when I was 5 and then we got a Saturn a couple years later. Yes we did get a PS1 a few years after that but that was after the Saturn was officially dead in the US and the Dreamcast was still another year out.

gamevet
03-11-2018, 12:49 PM
And I did, a lovely big book with some 200 pages of Neo Geo or DC goodness. Like usual you, you have been caught out and the pathetic cop out of digital doesn't count, is fooling nobody. Since you like answers to questions...How about you answer the simple question of how many units did the Neo Geo AES and Turbgrafx 16 sell in the USA. Just the facts please and I'll take digital media too.


Show me a real PRINT book, or STFU.




Yet another Nintendo fan.. My GOD there's not many SEGA fans on this board and to think I get grief for liking the SNES and from people who LOVE Nintendo or SONY for added irony.

Looks like only me and Joe were SEGA boys growing up

No, little boy, I grew up in the Atari generation. I was a grown man when the Master System came out. And you know what? I chose the C64 and the Amiga over 8-bit consoles.

Ecco
03-11-2018, 01:29 PM
Lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpsHLG657lM

Re: TG-16 and Neo Geo: Obviously the sales were low, but they were better known than SMS, and they were also from a later time-period.

First NES ruled and defined "videogames" to a whole generation of 80's kids. The only other console that most kids eventually knew about was Game Boy with its green-screen. Most gamers/readers would only be reading Nintendo Power.

The 16-bit era seemed to start with Sonic, then soon Genesis was competing with SNES, and we started reading independent magazines that covered multiple systems, including TG-16 and Neo Geo etc.

Plus TG-16 ran at least a few TV ads that I remember (for Bonk). And Neo Geo had a few arcade cabinets here and there. I remember camping and the campground had a small arcade in a log cabin (lol) with Street Fighter II, Samurai Shodown, and that Neo Geo monster-fighting game.

The earlier NES years did not feature any ads (that I remember) for SMS, either on TV or magazines. The one kid I knew with a SMS considered it lame, and he eventually gave it away like trash, and the following kids disliked his SMS and gave it away a few more times, like trash that no one wanted.

OmegaMax
03-11-2018, 01:33 PM
I remember camping and the campground had a small arcade in a log cabin (lol) with Street Fighter II, Samurai Shodown, and that Neo Geo monster-fighting game.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlVdQ7DEebk

BonusKun
03-11-2018, 02:13 PM
Yet another Nintendo fan.. My GOD there's not many SEGA fans on this board and to think I get grief for liking the SNES and from people who LOVE Nintendo or SONY for added irony.

Looks like only me and Joe were SEGA boys growing up

TA seriously please stop with the broad comments. I'm started to get annoyed at these general sweeping insults you're throwing out.





P.s. You won't like me when I get annoyed because it means I start polishing my size 13 boot when people don't listen.

Yharnamresident
03-11-2018, 04:47 PM
P.s. You won't like me when I get annoyed because it means I start polishing my size 13 boot when people don't listen.I also wear size 13 boots. They're pure rubber so I was able to walk across a small river near my house in mid January.


Does anyone else think its time to start a new thread consisting of the topics being discussed?

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-11-2018, 05:46 PM
I also wear size 13 boots. They're pure rubber so I was able to walk across a small river near my house in mid January.


Does anyone else think its time to start a new thread consisting of the topics being discussed?

Agreed.

stu
03-11-2018, 06:04 PM
I do know thanks, Shall I also use the line of my friend had a BBC Micro (we used to play Elite on it, while also watching Ice Pirates on VHS video) or how my school used to have a ton of them and instead of learning typing tutor on it We used to play REVs, Thrust (amazing game) and Mr Do on them. Good times, Also Acon/ARM makes one proud to be British as they were the pioneers of the RISC CPUs back in the day and my school also had 1 Acorn Archimedes and we used to play PacMania, which looked amazing on it, back them.

Was I responding to you? I was replying to Mega Drive Bowlsey's post, not to you, so get over yourself. By the way save me from the Acorn/ARM history lesson as I knew all that already. Shame the dumb UK government allowed ARM to be sold off to SoftBank but that's been the case for the last 30 odd years, innovative UK companies being sold to foreign companies, ImgTec is another, just been sold off to a bunch of chinese investors .. d'oh. :roll:



Happy memories still don't change how the ZX Spectrum outsold the C64 or BBC Micro though.

FTFY, I don't ever recall disputing that the Spectrum outsold the C64/CPC464/6128/BBC Micro and every other 8 bit computer under the sun. Go read my previous posts again since I was disputing your distorted view that it had same kind of dominance in the UK as NES did in the US.
Still waiting for you to prove that the Spectrum had a 94% share of the UK market like you seem to think.:bs::fail: :bull:

Ecco
03-11-2018, 06:52 PM
I also wear size 13 boots. They're pure rubber so I was able to walk across a small river near my house in mid January.


Does anyone else think its time to start a new thread consisting of the topics being discussed?

I vote no, lol.

If anything, rename it or add a subtitle lol.

"DVD would not have saved the Dreamcast / The never-ending, everyday conversation about the Master System's known presence in 1980's US"

:rofl:

BonusKun
03-11-2018, 07:50 PM
I vote no, lol.

If anything, rename it or add a subtitle lol.

"DVD would not have saved the Dreamcast / The never-ending, everyday conversation about the Master System's known presence in 1980's US"

:rofl:

Changed the thread title. You're welcome.

gamevet
03-11-2018, 08:01 PM
There needs to be a big boot edition in that title. ;)

Ecco
03-11-2018, 08:15 PM
^Ha thanks, I was mostly joking but that does seem the best outcome of this thread (to have the subtitle). Despite the ridiculousness of the thread lol there is something educational and interesting about how different countries experienced the 80's and 90's...

BonusKun
03-11-2018, 08:46 PM
There needs to be a big boot edition in that title. ;)

I would have but sadly you only get so many letters in a thread title.

Team Andromeda
03-12-2018, 05:10 AM
FTFY, I don't ever recall disputing that the Spectrum outsold the C64/CPC464/6128/BBC Micro and every other 8 bit computer under the sun:
Just has well, if we're talking of the UK. Worldwide sales completely different, I'm not even sure if the ZX Spectrum was ever officially sold in the USA or if it was sold to our European friends. It was a complete smash in the UK and dominated sales.


Shame the dumb UK government allowed ARM to be sold off to SoftBank but that's been the case for the last 30 odd years,
That's why business loves the UK, we're open and allow inward investment. No trouble with investment from overseas in our corps, more of issues is when that investment takes over key public facilities like Airports, Water, and Nuclear plants but that is another matter altogether.

Team Andromeda
03-12-2018, 05:18 AM
Show me a real PRINT book, or STFU.

Digital doesn't count anymore. I'll have to bear that in mind from now on. Should be interesting in future debates when only printed media will be accepted as proof.
Anyway, where's the answer to very basic questions? How many units did the Neo Geo AES and Turbografx 16 sell in the USA? Why can't you provide the answers?

IrishNinja
03-12-2018, 05:46 AM
shame "DVD wouldn't have saved dreamcast" didn't fit but it's a loaded title!

also, USA invented comics & hip hop, hold ya head

few drinks in so let's gooooo


BTW Retrogamer 'do' have a book on the likes of the Neo Geo and Dreamcast too. They have the complete quide to the Neo, the Dreamcast and plenty of other systems that didn't sell that great . I mean the DC didn't sell any better than the Master system.

my god, not only do i not care about what specials retrogamer printed (insofar as this thread/aside, not the specials themselves which i usually buy) but when you're straight comparing master system & dreamcast sales despite all the differences at that point, it's time to pack it up


Most kids who read a gaming magazine in the late 80s early 90s in the US was Nintendo Power. For some odd reason, they never talked about SEGA in that magazine.

:D this is the kinda post you get from someone who grew up out here during that era. swear to god, 8-bit era, i was a kid all up on Game Players & EGM (likely cause, you know, they'd throw an occasional bone to SMS stuff once in a while TOTALLY CONFIRMING THAT THE SYSTEM EXITED SOMEHOW), but no one gave a fuck. nintendo power - at least post that dragon warrior deal - was the shit that gen. having 95% of the marketshare and telling folks how to fucking finish castlevania II was huge.


ignorant is hardly offensive, it means a lack of knowledge. Which is exactly the case for USA Nintendo NES fans, who made up 94% of the USA gaming market. Not a clue that they were other systems or gaming companies like SEGA, If I'meant to believe what people post here or from a YouTube channel.
Actually, I don't think the USA gamer was that ignorant, actually knew of other gaming systems, but just had no interest in buying them (THAT is different and have said so) . I'm actually sticking up for the 80s gamer in the USA!

yeah, "ignorance" is an interesting word here - many knew about as much about the SMS, TG-16 or neo-geo as they did ya'lls amigas & c64's. i'm not kidding when i say a sizeable portion of the folks out here who grew up in our eras literally didn't know atari tried another system in the 90's.

when any system - gaming or not - takes up minimal shelf space and has next to no advertising in a competitive market, it barely exists. my trips overseas never made me think this was something exclusive to american markets: we're all well aware of how NEC, the saturn and other things did in areas they pandered to/had recognition. were y'all ignorant about the NES, or would anyone over there not reading niche game mags have known unless they stumbled into the wrong aisle & had time?


Yet another Nintendo fan.. My GOD there's not many SEGA fans on this board and to think I get grief for liking the SNES and from people who LOVE Nintendo or SONY for added irony.

Looks like only me and Joe were SEGA boys growing up

my dude, you can get thefuckouttahere with this mess

i literally only had an SMS because my mom was hooking up with some guy that went to some form of a consumer electronics show in the holiday of '86, which is how i got it for christmas. are you hearing me here? if my old man had done his job, i might be on nintendoage right now, "investing" in multicolor repros of mr fucking gimmick, perish the thought

$400 launch saturn aside, i rode with sega till the wheels fell off in '01. when someone - on or offline - says they were part of the possibly 96% of the market who had an NES in the day, i react the same as i do now when newjack early 20's kids tell me they're discovering any of the 4 gens of classics sega left us: with joy & love, not fluffing joe during his next rant on why sonic & 'TUDE are the worst (for real though joe, you're doing the lord's work otherwise)


Re: TG-16 and Neo Geo: Obviously the sales were low, but they were better known than SMS, and they were also from a later time-period.

boggles the mind how a hardcore site with people infinitely more knowledgeable than myself posting here still needs bits like this to be said


Anyway, where's the answer to very basic questions? How many units did the Neo Geo AES and Turbografx 16 sell in the USA? Where can't you provide the answers?

i answered this (as did others) in the last few pages
that said, if you have me on ignore cause i've called you a cuntlog or something in the past, that's understandable too, so if no one's reading this anyway: you know what's an underrated group? PM Dawn, they had some jams

Ecco
03-12-2018, 06:58 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5lByFc7HiM

Team Andromeda
03-12-2018, 08:27 AM
my god, not only do i not care about what specials retrogamer printed

I wasn't replying to you there, but was just pointing out that RG do various manuals on systems that sold great or sold like crap.


yeah, "ignorance" is an interesting word here

No interesting really, it just means a lack of knowledge. Which if you grew up not knowing of SEGA, NEC or that other corps make video game consoles, is what you would be. I would imagine that was not to be 'quite' the case and also no doubt even the Official Nintendo mags would have talked of SEGA even if it was nothing more than potshots on how crap SEGA was or what a rubbish system the MS was.


only had an SMS because my mom was hooking up with some guy that went to some form of a consumer electronics show in the holiday of '86

Thanks for confirming that some people did know of the MS and it was show off too.


i answered this (as did others) in the last few pages
I didn't ask you, but never mind. At at guess, I bet the Master System sold better than both in the USA So it must follow that 94% of the USA gaming market didn't know of NEC great gaming system either. USA missed out so much gaming goodness in 80s.

gamevet
03-12-2018, 11:08 AM
Digital doesn't count anymore. I'll have to bear that in mind from now on. Should be interesting in future debates when only printed media will be accepted as proof.

You obviously don't get it. The only risk Retro Gamer took with making a digital only book was paying some fat ass to cut and past together everything they've covered about the console over the years, plus find some old adverts to fill up space as well. It's a lot different than paying a print shop to put together the mag, preview the work and then approving it by writing a big fat check up front. If the book doesn't sell, they lose a lot of money. The digital book doesn't sell and their out the few thousands of dollars that they paid fat ass.


Anyway, where's the answer to very basic questions? How many units did the Neo Geo AES and Turbografx 16 sell in the USA? Why can't you provide the answers?

You want the answer? Jack Shit!

Now go away.

stu
03-12-2018, 11:22 AM
Just has well, if we're talking of the UK.

That's right, just respond to half my post and ignore the rest and the question I asked you. :roll:

SO you can try again.

Go read my previous posts again since I was disputing your distorted view that it had same kind of dominance in the UK as NES did in the US.
Still waiting for you to prove that the Spectrum had a 94% share of the UK market like you seem to think.:bs::fail: :bull:



Worldwide sales completely different, I'm not even sure if the ZX Spectrum was ever officially sold in the USA or if it was sold to our European friends. It was a complete smash in the UK and dominated sales.

For such a fan you don't know much about the Spectrum's history do you? ;) The design was licensed to Timex Corp in the US who launched an improved version of the Spectrum, called the Timex Sinclair 2068. It was a total failure. I believe it was sold in the European countries, and was successful in some. Unofficial Spectrum clones were also available in Russia and other Eastern European countries, with much success.

gamevet
03-12-2018, 03:12 PM
The Ti 99/4A and Timex Sinclair were in the bargain bins a little over a year after they came out.

IrishNinja
03-12-2018, 04:22 PM
Thanks for confirming that some people did know of the MS and it was show off too.

imagine thinking being this willfully dense was actually a clever post

yes, the SMS did physically exist here. at some places, it took up physical shelf space for a time, and can be said to have been a product that was on sale in america. my example that it was one of likely thousands of electronics shown at an electronics show in asscrack, texas clearly flies in the face of the fact it enjoyed 2-4% market share at best.

to paraphrase george carlin: arguing with you sometimes is a lot like masturbation, only i have less to show for it after the fact


I didn't ask you, but never mind. At at guess, I bet the Master System sold better than both in the USA So it must follow that 94% of the USA gaming market didn't know of NEC great gaming system either. USA missed out so much gaming goodness in 80s.

yes, i'm joyous that 28 pages in, you've arrived at this epiphany that most people on my side of the pond didn't own a turbografx, either

thank you for attending my ted talk

BonusKun
03-12-2018, 04:38 PM
I wasn't replying to you there, but was just pointing out that RG do various manuals on systems that sold great or sold like crap.



No interesting really, it just means a lack of knowledge. Which if you grew up not knowing of SEGA, NEC or that other corps make video game consoles, is what you would be. I would imagine that was not to be 'quite' the case and also no doubt even the Official Nintendo mags would have talked of SEGA even if it was nothing more than potshots on how crap SEGA was or what a rubbish system the MS was.



Thanks for confirming that some people did know of the MS and it was show off too.


I didn't ask you, but never mind. At at guess, I bet the Master System sold better than both in the USA So it must follow that 94% of the USA gaming market didn't know of NEC great gaming system either. USA missed out so much gaming goodness in 80s.

Why are you going out of your way so much to piss people off who obviously know more about this subject then you? Are you trying to just get a rise out of people or are you actually serious about what you're saying. It's at a point where multiple people in this thread have told you the same thing over and over that maybe you should step back and think, "Hey, Maybe I'm wrong about this afterall.."

j_factor
03-12-2018, 06:18 PM
Don't you people realize that you're just egging TA on? As long as you keep replying to him, he'll keep replying back. If you programmed a bot to reply to his posts, every thread would be hundreds of pages.

Team Andromeda
03-13-2018, 04:22 AM
Why are you going out of your way so much to piss people off who obviously know more about this subject then you? Are you trying to just get a rise out of people or are you actually serious about what you're saying. It's at a point where multiple people in this thread have told you the same thing over and over that maybe you should step back and think, "Hey, Maybe I'm wrong about this afterall.."

No, All I've done is to play Devils advocate and if its true that 94% of the gamers in the USA were all Nintendo and didn't know of SEGA or the likes of NEC in the 80s Then by definition, there are ignorant. So why you are getting so upset over it I really don't know, when that is exactly what a lot of people here are trying to make out
. I don't share that view and think that most people simply didn't want another product and were happy with Nintendo and couldn't carless for SEGAs Power Base or the Turbograf16. Shame really as the MS was by far the better console, but sadly both Japan and USA were Nintendo land at the time..

Team Andromeda
03-13-2018, 04:32 AM
You obviously don't get it. The only risk Retro Gamer took with making a digital only book was paying some fat ass to cut and past together everything they've covered about the console over the years.

You obviously don't read Retrogamer , if you had you might have known that Night Trap was already finished for the Nemo, or that Tomb Raider started out in 95. Looking over that, All Retrogamer Manuals are is just a collection of the articles and features in the main magazine in one book, even in the Hardcopy version.
What next Music doesn't count unless its vinyl or games only count when on Physical media, get with the times and live in the digital age.

And I take it you know full well the Turbograx16 didn't outsell the Master system in the the USA and that the Neo Geo sold like utter crap in the USA. Gamers in the USA knew jack sh8t about those systems too, I take it.

BonusKun
03-13-2018, 08:31 AM
No, All I've done is to play Devils advocate

If that's your intention then please stop doing it.

Team Andromeda
03-13-2018, 10:43 AM
If that's your intention then please stop doing it.

Sorry all I did was argue against 94% of gaming Americans not having a clue of other systems like the Powerbase, the Amiga, Turbografx 16, Neo Geo during the 80s and very early 90s. Only for the ones who made out this was the case, to argue against it and show off Multi-format gaming too.

But I stand corrected and was wrong. 94% of gamers in 80s USA didn't have the 1st clue of SEGA or of other gaming systems like the Turbografx16 and it was all Nintendo.

gamevet
03-13-2018, 10:50 AM
You are more annoying than A Black Falcon, and just as clueless.

IrishNinja
03-13-2018, 05:12 PM
Sorry all I did was

https://i.imgur.com/ahfqy10.gif

OmegaMax
03-13-2018, 09:06 PM
Sorry all I did was argue

https://s13.postimg.org/bv89ezevr/giphy.gif

Ecco
03-14-2018, 10:17 AM
I know there's a language barrier but did TA basically say that he was trolling everyone in this thread for 2 weeks? And wasting everyone's attention and time for a false, meaningless conversation?

gamevet
03-14-2018, 12:17 PM
He should be sent to the tree of woe for such actions.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wgN1sLcAQnw

Barone
03-14-2018, 11:52 PM
Sorry all I did was
https://bplusmovieblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/rocky-iii-33.png

Team Andromeda
03-15-2018, 11:25 AM
And wasting everyone's attention and time for a false, meaningless conversation?

Hardly trolling and now I 've been corrected and understand that 94% Of USA gamers only knew of Nintendo in the 80s and lets put another debat to rest about the DC, with SEGA 'again' saying it was the COST of the DVD that made not use the Medium for the DC, Oh... and its via printed media too, before gamevet starts ;).


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/820/39014495240_c7daef95b5_o.jpg

gamevet
03-15-2018, 11:30 AM
Dude. Don't be dense about the whole print thing.

Black_Tiger
03-15-2018, 03:02 PM
More words of wisdom from console company's presidents/execs:


"Customers do not want online games."

"[People who play RPGs are] depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games,"

"I have been saying this for some time, but customers are not interested in grand games with higher-quality graphics and sound and epic stories. Only people who do not know the videogame business would advocate the release of next-generation machines when people are not interested in cutting-edge technologies."*

"Sony have had a graphic workstation business; they understand polygon rendering and have special customers that demand it. But I think when Sony come to market they might discover that they've underestimated how important traditional cell animation is and overrated the importance of polygon rendering."

"You can communicate to a new cybercity. Did you see the movie The Matrix? Same interface. Same concept. Starting from next year, you can jack into The Matrix!"*

"[PS3] is not a game machine. We've never once called it a game machine. I'm not going to reveal [the PS3's] price today. I'm going to only say that it'll be expensive. I'm aware that with all these technologies, the PS3 can't be offered at a price that's targeted towards households."*

"We want for consumers to think to themselves, 'I will work more hours to buy one."

"It's probably too cheap."

"The idea of a handheld rivalry with Nintendo is an irrelevance. Those formats don't appear in our planning. It's not a fair comparison; not fair on them, I should stress. That sounds arrogant, maybe, but it's the truth. With the DS , it's fair to say that Nintendo stepped out of the technical race and went for a feature differentiation with the touch screen. But I fear that it won't have a lasting impact beyond that of a gimmick - so the long-lasting appeal of the platform is at peril as a direct result of that."

j_factor
03-15-2018, 06:41 PM
lets put another debat to rest about the DC, with SEGA 'again' saying it was the COST of the DVD that made not use the Medium for the DC,

Was this ever debated? Of course it was the cost.

Yharnamresident
03-15-2018, 11:14 PM
More words of wisdom from console company's presidents/execs:


"Customers do not want online games."

"[People who play RPGs are] depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games,"

"I have been saying this for some time, but customers are not interested in grand games with higher-quality graphics and sound and epic stories. Only people who do not know the videogame business would advocate the release of next-generation machines when people are not interested in cutting-edge technologies."*

"Sony have had a graphic workstation business; they understand polygon rendering and have special customers that demand it. But I think when Sony come to market they might discover that they've underestimated how important traditional cell animation is and overrated the importance of polygon rendering."

"You can communicate to a new cybercity. Did you see the movie The Matrix? Same interface. Same concept. Starting from next year, you can jack into The Matrix!"*

"[PS3] is not a game machine. We've never once called it a game machine. I'm not going to reveal [the PS3's] price today. I'm going to only say that it'll be expensive. I'm aware that with all these technologies, the PS3 can't be offered at a price that's targeted towards households."*

"We want for consumers to think to themselves, 'I will work more hours to buy one."

"It's probably too cheap."

"The idea of a handheld rivalry with Nintendo is an irrelevance. Those formats don't appear in our planning. It's not a fair comparison; not fair on them, I should stress. That sounds arrogant, maybe, but it's the truth. With the DS , it's fair to say that Nintendo stepped out of the technical race and went for a feature differentiation with the touch screen. But I fear that it won't have a lasting impact beyond that of a gimmick - so the long-lasting appeal of the platform is at peril as a direct result of that."I appreciate you posting this. He said the development costs for DVD were too high, couldn't they just used CDs until DVD storage capabilities were required?

Its never good when a console has a significant disadvantage over its competitors.

Team Andromeda
03-16-2018, 04:13 AM
I appreciate you posting this. He said the development costs for DVD were too high, couldn't they just used CDs until DVD storage capabilities were required?

Its never good when a console has a significant disadvantage over its competitors.

It really didn't hurt the 360 and a DVD Drive would have been too much for SEGA to take, it was already losing on every DC sold and like was said not even MS wanted to pay the licence rate for DVD playback and you had to buy a separate DVD add-on to play Film DVDs on the XBox. It made sense for SONY not just because it manufactured DVD drives but also because it had a huge Film empire too and going to make millions of Film DVD sales alone.

lumclaw
03-16-2018, 07:30 PM
Sorry all I did was argue against 94% of gaming Americans not having a clue of other systems like the Powerbase, the Amiga, Turbografx 16, Neo Geo during the 80s and very early 90s. Only for the ones who made out this was the case, to argue against it and show off Multi-format gaming too.

But I stand corrected and was wrong. 94% of gamers in 80s USA didn't have the 1st clue of SEGA or of other gaming systems like the Turbografx16 and it was all Nintendo.

Nintendo entered the market as a "savior". The other systems comparable to NES indeed were already outdated or prematurely dead.
In spite of that, they still are commonly believed to have resorted to illegal price fixing to strengthen their grip (Nintendo dodged admitting guilt by agreeing to a settlement).

Team Andromeda
03-17-2018, 04:56 AM
Nintendo entered the market as a "savior". The other systems comparable to NES indeed were already outdated or prematurely dead.
In spite of that, they still are commonly believed to have resorted to illegal price fixing to strengthen their grip (Nintendo dodged admitting guilt by agreeing to a settlement).
The Master system and Turbograf 16 came after the NES and had better spec, and the crash only seemed to have hurt Atari and the likes of Mattel and of course for the rest of the gaming world, there was no crash at all. But like I’ve been told after the Crash, people only knew of Nintendo in the USA.

Btw In Europe Nintendo were fined twice for Price fixing and SEGA were also fined once too.

Leynos
03-17-2018, 05:36 AM
There most certainly was a crash. Again practically no retailer wanted to sell gaming products after the 83 crash. The crash was caused mainly by everyone being allowed to make a game on Atari. Purina Dog Chow, games were you rape native American women. Cum unto naked women's mouths. Quaker Oats games. It flooded the market to the point good games were pushed off shelves. NES had a strategy. Make it look like a VCR, rename it the Entertainment System and include a robot. The other was to include a licensing system with the Nintendo Seal of Quality. This was to ensure the system was not overloaded with the same issue that happened to 2600 and gain consumer confidence. SEGA a followed suit.

To this day that gold seal is still on the back of game boxes. Even that was not quite enough as SEARS (the Amazon of its day) refused to sell it. The Toy that was most popular in the 80s was a talking robotic bear named Teddy Ruxbin. They told SEARS NES deserved a shot on store shelves and threatened to pull their product if NES is not placed on shelved in the first market NES was sold in. NYC. NES made gaming a thing again in the US and to this day US is the largest games market for Nintendo, MS, and Sony. It wasn't just that Nintendo was shady after that but for a little while practically the only gaming console sold. To deny there was a crash is like those dopes who deny the moon landing or think JFK wasn't killed by Oswald.

Team Andromeda
03-17-2018, 06:47 AM
Sigh... I said for the rest of the world and there was no crash, and in fact in both Japan and Europe there was a boom with Consoles taking off in Japan and the micro computer market in Europe really taking off as well.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-17-2018, 07:24 AM
Sigh... I said for the rest of the world and there was no crash, and in fact in both Japan and Europe there was a boom with Consoles taking off in Japan and the micro computer market in Europe really taking off as well.

Agreed. The big crash of '83 affected the US games market and pretty much the US games market alone. Hence why Nintendo were probably seen as some kind of white knight riding in to save the games industry in America, whereas here in the UK, until the release of the SNES in '92, we were like "Ninten-who?!"

Yharnamresident
03-17-2018, 07:59 AM
It really didn't hurt the 360 and a DVD Drive would have been too much for SEGA to take, it was already losing on every DC sold and like was said not even MS wanted to pay the licence rate for DVD playback and you had to buy a separate DVD add-on to play Film DVDs on the XBox. It made sense for SONY not just because it manufactured DVD drives but also because it had a huge Film empire too and going to make millions of Film DVD sales alone.Weren't we recently discussing this exact issue? But anyways:

1. The 360 has a hard drive which makes a world of difference. If a game is too big for a DVD, then you can put the rest on the HDD. Like GTA V. Even with this in mind, didn't Final Fantasy Something come on like 3 DVDs with compressed cut-scenes and audio?
2. Sega could've just raised the Dreamcast price to $300. It would've fine if they took the Microsoft route and made people bellyache when they find out they gotta purchase a DVD kit. Its better to make the Dreamcast future-proof, and not a spot-gap console that becomes deprecated within 3 years.
3. I honestly feel like the DVD drive would've attracted more sales. People could've been like "wow this thing has support for DVDs, thats so futuristic", aka a selling point.

Remember this is all in a scenario where Sega was in good financial shape. Theres no point in putting a DVD drive in the Dreamcast, if the Dreamcast was gonna die regardless.

Yharnamresident
03-17-2018, 08:09 AM
Agreed. The big crash of '83 affected the US games market and pretty much the US games market alone. Hence why Nintendo were probably seen as some kind of white knight riding in to save the games industry in America, whereas here in the UK, until the release of the SNES in '92, we were like "Ninten-who?!"

Theres countries that have it worse. Like in Poland, Nintendo doesn't exist in the country at all and has never existed. Its been PlayStation territory since the PS2.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-17-2018, 10:08 AM
Theres countries that have it worse. Like in Poland, Nintendo doesn't exist in the country at all and has never existed. Its been PlayStation territory since the PS2.

Meh. While Nintendo ruled the roost in America, we weren't missing anything here in the UK. We were more than happy with home computers and Sega. ;)

Black_Tiger
03-17-2018, 12:28 PM
There most certainly was a crash. Again practically no retailer wanted to sell gaming products after the 83 crash. The crash was caused mainly by everyone being allowed to make a game on Atari. Purina Dog Chow, games were you rape native American women. Cum unto naked women's mouths. Quaker Oats games. It flooded the market to the point good games were pushed off shelves. NES had a strategy. Make it look like a VCR, rename it the Entertainment System and include a robot. The other was to include a licensing system with the Nintendo Seal of Quality. This was to ensure the system was not overloaded with the same issue that happened to 2600 and gain consumer confidence. SEGA a followed suit.

To this day that gold seal is still on the back of game boxes. Even that was not quite enough as SEARS (the Amazon of its day) refused to sell it. The Toy that was most popular in the 80s was a talking robotic bear named Teddy Ruxbin. They told SEARS NES deserved a shot on store shelves and threatened to pull their product if NES is not placed on shelved in the first market NES was sold in. NYC. NES made gaming a thing again in the US and to this day US is the largest games market for Nintendo, MS, and Sony. It wasn't just that Nintendo was shady after that but for a little while practically the only gaming console sold. To deny there was a crash is like those dopes who deny the moon landing or think JFK wasn't killed by Oswald.

Porno games were never "allowed" to be made for the 2600 and there were more of them for the NES bitd.

Anyone familiar with the NES library knows how much of a joke Nintendo's "Seal of Quality" was.

gamevet
03-17-2018, 12:44 PM
I've always thought that everyone moved onto computers and that the consoles just couldn't compete with that. I didn't know it as a crash until maybe a decade later, but I did get about 5 2600 games for $5 each out of a clearance bin.

OmegaMax
03-17-2018, 12:47 PM
Anyone familiar with the NES library knows how much of a joke Nintendo's "Seal of Quality" was.

Yeah,The Seal Of Quality was purchasable by the developer so It didn't mean much.


Some of the great Seal Of Quality games

http://katsfm.com/nes-games-dont-deserve-the-nintendo-seal-of-quality/

Tower of Power
03-17-2018, 01:02 PM
Yeah,The Seal Of Quality was purchasable by the developer so It didn't mean much.


Some of the great Seal Of Quality games

http://katsfm.com/nes-games-dont-deserve-the-nintendo-seal-of-quality/

Those games are bad, yes, but compared to the trash in the dregs of the Atari 2600 library, they are nothing.

gamevet
03-17-2018, 01:37 PM
You know the Genesis games had a "Seal of Quality" also. It didn't stop that console from gettting crap either.

Team Andromeda
03-17-2018, 02:00 PM
Weren't we recently discussing this exact issue? But anyways:

1. The 360 has a hard drive which makes a world of difference. If a game is too big for a DVD, then you can put the rest on the HDD. Like GTA V. Even with this in mind, didn't Final Fantasy Something come on like 3 DVDs with compressed cut-scenes and audio?
2. Sega could've just raised the Dreamcast price to $300. It would've fine if they took the Microsoft route and made people bellyache when they find out they gotta purchase a DVD kit. Its better to make the Dreamcast future-proof, and not a spot-gap console that becomes deprecated within 3 years.
3. I honestly feel like the DVD drive would've attracted more sales. People could've been like "wow this thing has support for DVDs, thats so futuristic", aka a selling point.

Remember this is all in a scenario where Sega was in good financial shape. Theres no point in putting a DVD drive in the Dreamcast, if the Dreamcast was gonna die regardless.

Weren't we recently discussing this exact issue? But anyways:

1. The 360 has a hard drive which makes a world of difference. If a game is too big for a DVD, then you can put the rest on the HDD..

I get you dislike me and want to get one over me, but the 360 did not come with a Hard-drive, it came in 2 different models 1 with one and 1 with not. Please at least get your facts straight. And Sega started to lose money in 1997 and lost insane amounts in 1998 1999 all thanks to DC

Leynos
03-17-2018, 02:12 PM
Porno games were never "allowed" to be made for the 2600 and there were more of them for the NES bitd.

Anyone familiar with the NES library knows how much of a joke Nintendo's "Seal of Quality" was.

I never said they were allowed and the of quality is misunderstood that it meant the game was good. That was not it. It just meant this is a licensed game/developer by Nintendo to prevent a flood of the market of shovelware. NES had a lockout chip so that only those with a dev kit could develop a game. That's what the seal is for. Atari just had no measure to stop that kind of stuff.The Seal did it's job.

OmegaMax
03-17-2018, 03:44 PM
https://s13.postimg.org/4urnvcis7/Official_Nintendo_Seal_of_Quality_Original.jpg

Leynos
03-17-2018, 04:25 PM
https://s13.postimg.org/4urnvcis7/Official_Nintendo_Seal_of_Quality_Original.jpg


This official seal is your assurance that Nintendo has approved the quality of this product. Always look for this seal when buying games and accessories to ensure complete compatibility with your <insert name of Nintendo system here>.

Basically this meant that the cartridge works in the named hardware and licensed, it had nothing to do with the written quality of the software.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-17-2018, 04:25 PM
You know the Genesis games had a "Seal of Quality" also. It didn't stop that console from gettting crap either.

lol yup. Some real crap was given the 'Seal of Quality' by both Sega and Nintendo over the years.

Leynos
03-17-2018, 04:32 PM
The seal just now says Seal and removed the of quality because of dumb misunderstanding of what it actually meant. Still means the same as always. It works on the hardware and linsenced by Nintendo. That's all it ever meant. Atari had no stop measures SEGA and Nintendo did. Didn't mean bad games could still not be made for them but the developer still had to buy the dev kit and be approved on carts you had to buy from Nintendo/SEGA with the lockout chip and Nintendo limited developers to 5 releases a year. Of course they still tried to find a way aroundit like the famous Konami "Ultra" label. The seal wasn't a perfect stop measure but it slowed it way down so something like Mega Man was not pushed off the shelf for Custards Revenge but instead Mega Man and Castlevania sat next to Roger Rabit from LJN.

OmegaMax
03-17-2018, 04:39 PM
This official seal is your assurance that Nintendo has approved the quality of this product. Always look for this seal when buying games and accessories to ensure complete compatibility with your <insert name of Nintendo system here>.

Basically this meant that the cartridge works in the named hardware and licensed, it had nothing to do with the written quality of the software.

Yeah this is correct I was incorrect.

Leynos
03-17-2018, 04:42 PM
Nintendo changed it later to what you quoted,the seal I posted is the original seal in NTSC.


No, what I quoted is what the original seal said.

This is the new one.

The current Official Nintendo Seal is explained as follows:

The official seal is your assurance that this product is licensed or manufactured by Nintendo. Always look for this seal when buying video game systems, accessories, games, and related products.

j_factor
03-17-2018, 05:21 PM
I never said they were allowed and the of quality is misunderstood that it meant the game was good. That was not it. It just meant this is a licensed game/developer by Nintendo to prevent a flood of the market of shovelware. NES had a lockout chip so that only those with a dev kit could develop a game. That's what the seal is for. Atari just had no measure to stop that kind of stuff.The Seal did it's job.

The lockout chip was defeated multiple times by separate parties. I'm not sure that the Seal "did its job". Unlicensed releases from the likes of Tengen were widely available and sold well. It seems neither retailers nor consumers were particularly deterred by the lack of the Seal on these games.

But at least having the Seal and Nintendo's restrictive policies meant that they were explicitly allowing third-party publishers. What often gets lost in this conversation is the fact that both Atari and Sega took a different lesson from the crash and decided to simply be the sole publisher of games for their systems. They both partly relented but it stayed limited. I know I've seen one of the Activision guys say that they simply really wanted to support all three and they really had to push Sega in particular. Atari was open to making an exception for them because they knew each other, and same thing with Absolute which was founded by people leaving Activision. Parker Bros. SMS releases only happened because they were under the same ownership as Tonka. I don't know the story behind the 7800's two releases by Froggo or the single SMS release by Seismic. But I've just listed off the entirety of third-party 7800 and SMS support in North America. Third parties were so few not just because Nintendo kept their third party companies on a short leash, but also because the door wasn't wide open at Atari and Sega for third parties to sign up.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-17-2018, 05:40 PM
The seal just now says Seal and removed the of quality because of dumb misunderstanding of what it actually meant. Still means the same as always. It works on the hardware and linsenced by Nintendo. That's all it ever meant. Atari had no stop measures SEGA and Nintendo did. Didn't mean bad games could still not be made for them but the developer still had to buy the dev kit and be approved on carts you had to buy from Nintendo/SEGA with the lockout chip and Nintendo limited developers to 5 releases a year. Of course they still tried to find a way aroundit like the famous Konami "Ultra" label. The seal wasn't a perfect stop measure but it slowed it way down so something like Mega Man was not pushed off the shelf for Custards Revenge but instead Mega Man and Castlevania sat next to Roger Rabit from LJN.

As kids we used to think the seal meant that Sega had checked the game out, played some of it, and said "Yep, this is a quality game!" LOL! I guess we were dumb...

Tower of Power
03-17-2018, 06:57 PM
As kids we used to think the seal meant that Sega had checked the game out, played some of it, and said "Yep, this is a quality game!" LOL! I guess we were dumb...

I think they did have to pass some modicum of QA from the publisher. Making sure the game displays the proper logos, doesn't crash the hardware (and if it does it does so in a friendly manner), etc.

Yharnamresident
03-18-2018, 09:08 PM
I get you dislike me and want to get one over me, but the 360 did not come with a Hard-drive, it came in 2 different models 1 with one and 1 with not. Please at least get your facts straight. And Sega started to lose money in 1997 and lost insane amounts in 1998 1999 all thanks to DC
Just because I debate with you a lot doesn't mean I dislike you.

But that doesn't make much difference if it comes with a hard drive or not, as long as its supported. Like I know theres numerous games that use the hard drive as extra disc space because it doesn't fit on a DVD. If that wasn't the case, then they'd have to do N64/GameCube gimping where they compress audio, cut-scenes, cut out content, and etc.

Leynos
03-19-2018, 03:10 AM
I sold so many 360's at launch. Yeah, there was the cheaper model with a wired controller, composite cables, and no HDD. The $400 model came with the wireless controller,20GB HDD, component cables. Most people bought the more expensive model since it was technically cheaper. The MSRP of the HDD alone was 80 bucks for a 360 model that was $350. Xbox 360 used DVD9 and the HD-DVD add-on came out in 2007? The one thing that was stupid about 360 was in order to use Wifi you had to buy a $100 dongle. DS cost $150 and had Wifi built in. If DS could why not 360? 360 also did not have HDMI until Xbox 360 Elite in April 2007. I feel that gen was really messy with hardware and features either missing added or removed more than most gens.

Team Andromeda
03-19-2018, 04:04 PM
Meh. While Nintendo ruled the roost in America, we weren't missing anything here in the UK. We were more than happy with home computers and Sega. ;)

Yeah, we have the better deal.

Team Andromeda
03-19-2018, 04:11 PM
if it comes with a hard drive or not, as long as its supported.

All 360 games had to be able to run on the Arcade 360, so even a game was to big for a DVD it wouldn't have been possible to use the 360 HD, all 360 games had to be able to run a 360 without an HD.. Not having the latest HD DVD or Blueray playback or medium never hurt the 360 at all and most PS2 games would have worked on the DC storage wise.


If that wasn't the case, then they'd have to do N64/GameCube gimping where they compress audio, cut-scenes, cut out content, and etc

Think you are going OTT, more so with the N64. Unlike the N64 you could just add more discs. Yes I know it adds to the cost and also some games it wouldn't have been possible given if you one big HUGE open world, but there are not many PS2 games that even the Cube or DC couldn't do content wise

Yharnamresident
03-19-2018, 11:02 PM
I sold so many 360's at launch. Yeah, there was the cheaper model with a wired controller, composite cables, and no HDD. The $400 model came with the wireless controller,20GB HDD, component cables. Most people bought the more expensive model since it was technically cheaper. The MSRP of the HDD alone was 80 bucks for a 360 model that was $350. Xbox 360 used DVD9 and the HD-DVD add-on came out in 2007? The one thing that was stupid about 360 was in order to use Wifi you had to buy a $100 dongle. DS cost $150 and had Wifi built in. If DS could why not 360? 360 also did not have HDMI until Xbox 360 Elite in April 2007. I feel that gen was really messy with hardware and features either missing added or removed more than most gens.I got one of those 360s without Wifi, its so annoying and inconvenient to deal with.


All 360 games had to be able to run on the Arcade 360, so even a game was to big for a DVD it wouldn't have been possible to use the 360 HD, all 360 games had to be able to run a 360 without an HD.. Not having the latest HD DVD or Blueray playback or medium never hurt the 360 at all and most PS2 games would have worked on the DC storage wise.


Think you are going OTT, more so with the N64. Unlike the N64 you could just add more discs. Yes I know it adds to the cost and also some games it wouldn't have been possible given if you one big HUGE open world, but there are not many PS2 games that even the Cube or DC couldn't do content wise

Dude, I just said a game that requires the HDD. Take a look:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-16-rockstar-warns-dont-install-gta5-xbox-360-play-disc


"When you first get the game, the first order of business is installing the mandatory content from disc one - this accounts for 7.7GB of data to install on your hard drive"


On Xbox 360 the openworld game comes on two discs: one mandatory "install" disc and one "play" disc, both around 8GB in size. It's a similar situation to Forza 4, which also shipped on two discs on Xbox 360.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/99038/Sega_Confirms_Hard_DriveOnly_Xbox_360_Game.php


Technically, the first Xbox 360 game to require a hard drive is the demo of massively multiplayer online role-playing game Final Fantasy XI, although the full retail version of Square Enix's title has not yet shipped, and it was already known that such a large MMO title would require greater storage to successfully operate

https://www.engadget.com/2012/07/03/halo-4-requires-at-least-8gb-flash-drive-hard-drive-recommen/


Xbox.com notes that players will need "at least an 8GB USB flash drive or an Xbox 360 Hard Drive" in order to play Halo 4's multiplayer mode.

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/5123/20140406/titanfall-for-xbox-360-is-being-sold-by-some-retailers-requires-1gb-free-hard-drive-space.htm


Gamers hoping to pick up Titanfall for the Xbox 360 should keep in mind that the game requires a 1GB install for systems with hard drives installed.

Team Andromeda
03-20-2018, 04:19 AM
Dude, I just said a game that requires the HDD.

All 360 games had to be able to play on the Arcade system. Yes one could install the games for better performance and also install the patch off Castlevania to bring it up to the PS4 version, but all games had to be able to run on the 360 Arcade unit too. Maybe that changed when MS brought in the new style 360, but it was mandatory and I remember a interview with Fable 2 and 3 saying it was a pain in the ass and that they were streaming the hell of the 360 DVD drive and some even blamed the constand use of the drive adding to the Three Rings of Death issues
Also, I think you overplay the size issue just a little too, we got Vice City on the PSP and its storage UMD was nothing to that of DVD and hardly much more than the DC or the Cube and that was for Vice City a game much lager than the likes of GT III.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-20-2018, 09:50 AM
All 360 games had to be able to play on the Arcade system. Yes one could install the games for better performance and also install the patch off Castlevania to bring it up to the PS4 version, but all games had to be able to run on the 360 Arcade unit too. Maybe that changed when MS brought in the new style 360, but it was mandatory and I remember a interview with Fable 2 and 3 saying it was a pain in the ass and that they were streaming the hell of the 360 DVD drive and some even blamed the constand use of the drive adding to the Three Rings of Death issues
Also, I think you overplay the size issue just a little too, we got Vice City on the PSP and its storage UMD was nothing to that of DVD and hardly much more than the DC or the Cube and that was for Vice City a game much lager than the likes of GT III.

If that was a policy it went away pretty quickly. GTA V required a HDD as did Destiny, Titanfall, and DragonAge Inquisition. Some of Microsofts own games like Forza 3 required it if you wanted to use all the cars and tracks. Phantasy Star Universe required it for the expansion and updates and that came out in 2006. I believe you'll find FFXI was in that same boat.

The Arcade and Core models were able to get Hard Drives after all. So it's not like they were completely incompatible.

And Vice City wasn't on the PSP, it was Vice City Stories. And that is a different game.

Team Andromeda
03-20-2018, 10:12 AM
If that was a policy it went away pretty quickly. GTA V required a HDD as did Destiny, Titanfall, and DragonAge Inquisition. Some of Microsofts own games like Forza 3 required it if you wanted to use all the cars and tracks. Phantasy Star Universe required it for the expansion and updates and that came out in 2006. I believe you'll find FFXI was in that same boat.

The Arcade and Core models were able to get Hard Drives after all. So it's not like they were completely incompatible.

And Vice City wasn't on the PSP, it was Vice City Stories. And that is a different game.

It didn't go away and yes I know you dislike me and are so keen and desperate to get one over me. But GTA V came some 8 years after the 360 1st shipped, by that time MS allowed the use of bigger pen drives to be used the Arcade unit and so hence you didn't need a HD to play it on the 360 and could still play with the game on 360 systems without the HD as standard
Overlooking the size difference between DVD and the GB disc, was very much like the difference between DVD and BluRay and that never hurt MS, I'm sure if the DC had been around for 8 years, SEGA would have looked to fix its storage issues and we may have had a Zip Drive or some other means of storage to help with any similar issues some 8 years down the line of great selling DC system, don't you think?

And Vice City on the PSP is true GTA game it plays almost exactly the PS2 games and is all able to fit on the UMD So I would assume, that if needed GTA III could be quite possible on the DC if the DC were to have been the dominant platform.

Yharnamresident
03-20-2018, 11:01 AM
All 360 games had to be able to play on the Arcade system. Yes one could install the games for better performance and also install the patch off Castlevania to bring it up to the PS4 version, but all games had to be able to run on the 360 Arcade unit too. Maybe that changed when MS brought in the new style 360, but it was mandatory and I remember a interview with Fable 2 and 3 saying it was a pain in the ass and that they were streaming the hell of the 360 DVD drive and some even blamed the constand use of the drive adding to the Three Rings of Death issues

When I was doing research, I did see some articles saying that policy was dropped in 2006 or 2007.



Also, I think you overplay the size issue just a little too, we got Vice City on the PSP and its storage UMD was nothing to that of DVD and hardly much more than the DC or the Cube and that was for Vice City a game much lager than the likes of GT III.But Vice City is a game I wouldn't be concerned about, compared to like San Andreas, Midnight Clubs, Need for Speeds, or Burnout 3.

Lets just agree to disagree about this subject. You don't think a console has a significant disadvantage when it has 1/5 the storage space of its competitors, while I do.

Team Andromeda
03-20-2018, 12:21 PM
When I was doing research, I did see some articles saying that policy was dropped in 2006 or 2007.

What was dropped was MS limiting pen drives size limits of no bigger than 2Gigs so you could play GTA V on a 360 with no HardDrive, which was just my point.


But Vice City is a game I wouldn't be concerned about, compared to like San Andreas, Midnight Clubs, Need for Speeds, or Burnout 3.
Well seeing as most of those style of games also made it on the PSP on the UMD, I think it would have been possible on the DC. Maybe not San Andreas, but to me that game was so big in scope it would have been beyond DC RAM system limits, nevermind storage medium.

Leynos
03-20-2018, 03:02 PM
I do wish DC had 32MB of ram.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-20-2018, 11:00 PM
It didn't go away and yes I know you dislike me and are so keen and desperate to get one over me. But GTA V came some 8 years after the 360 1st shipped, by that time MS allowed the use of bigger pen drives to be used the Arcade unit and so hence you didn't need a HD to play it on the 360 and could still play with the game on 360 systems without the HD as standard
Overlooking the size difference between DVD and the GB disc, was very much like the difference between DVD and BluRay and that never hurt MS, I'm sure if the DC had been around for 8 years, SEGA would have looked to fix its storage issues and we may have had a Zip Drive or some other means of storage to help with any similar issues some 8 years down the line of great selling DC system, don't you think?


You're so full of shit. Here's the actual manuals from Microsoft for the Arcade, Pro models, Elite Models, etc.:

https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-360/console/manual-specs

There is no mention at all about a limit on USB storage devices. It just says you can use them. You can go back and look at archives of the support site back as early as 2005. There's no mention of such a limitation there either. In fact there's actually mention of hooking up numerous USB devices for playing digital media such as cameras, MP3 players, iPods, Zunes, etc. Those all could be bigger than 2GB and it had no issue with those. Hell the first Zune came out in 2006 and it could be anywhere from 4GB to 30GB. The Xbox 360 had no problem interfacing with it, in fact Microsoft proudly advertised that feature. In other words, I can't find any evidence of a 2GB USB stick limitation.

The Arcade limitation may have been there but that went away quickly around 2006/2007. Which would be 1 or 2 years into the lifespan of the system. I know installing games to the HDD was there as a capability as early as 2009 at least, as that's when I got my 360 and that option was available. I know because I used it as it sped up load times and made some games run a little better. Games like Phantasy Star Universe came out in 2006 and that required a HDD, as did games like Final Fantasy XI. Forza 3 required it if you wanted all the cars and it came out in 2009. There's plenty of evidence staring you right in the face that that limitation went away as early as 2006. Quit being stubborn and just own up to being wrong for once.



And Vice City on the PSP is true GTA game it plays almost exactly the PS2 games and is all able to fit on the UMD So I would assume, that if needed GTA III could be quite possible on the DC if the DC were to have been the dominant platform.

Learn to read. I didn't say it wasn't a true GTA game. I said it wasn't the exact same game as Vice City. It was Vice City Stories. It was a game made specifically for the PSP with all it's limitations in mind. If I remember correctly the map is altered with less buildings and sites to explore. That's not to say it's bad, but it is built around the PSP's limitations.

Yharnamresident
03-21-2018, 12:33 AM
What was dropped was MS limiting pen drives size limits of no bigger than 2Gigs so you could play GTA V on a 360 with no HardDrive, which was just my point. No your original point was a game had to be playable on a arcade 360 with no additional storage requirements.



Well seeing as most of those style of games also made it on the PSP on the UMD, I think it would have been possible on the DC. Maybe not San Andreas, but to me that game was so big in scope it would have been beyond DC RAM system limits, nevermind storage medium.But you don't know if those games are being gimped or not. The point is being able to port PS2/OG Xbox games to the Dreamcast without much gimping being done(cutting out content, compressing audio, cut-scenes). Of course the games would be graphically inferior(though not in every aspect with the PS2), but I mean in terms of 3 GD-ROMs being used, and possibly cutting out content on-top of that.


I do wish DC had 32MB of ram.Even 24 MBs would've been fine. Thats been my stance on this for years, the 3 things the Dreamcast needed was:

1. more RAM
2. more disc space
3. a controller that isn't so limited


There's plenty of evidence staring you right in the face that that limitation went away as early as 2006. Quit being stubborn and just own up to being wrong for once.
I think this is the problem that everyone ends up facing with Team Andromeda.

gamevet
03-21-2018, 12:39 AM
Storage aside, I do know that Final Fantasy XIII had to have reduced texture quality on the 360, because the DVD format couldn't hold enough data to match what the Blu-Ray disc on the PS3 could hold.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2018, 01:06 AM
Storage aside, I do know that Final Fantasy XIII had to have reduced texture quality on the 360, because the DVD format couldn't hold enough data to match what the Blu-Ray disc on the PS3 could hold.

From what I remember texture quality was on par, but the FMV quality was significantly degraded and the game ran at an overall lower resolution. However it did have the benefit of better Anti Aliasing and a more stable frame rate in some spots.

Oddly enough Star Ocean 4 on both systems has similar issues but the roles are somewhat reversed. For that game PS3 is the one that runs at a lower resolution, has worse textures, worse lighting effects, a worse overall frame rate, etc.

gamevet
03-21-2018, 01:49 AM
From what I remember texture quality was on par, but the FMV quality was significantly degraded and the game ran at an overall lower resolution. However it did have the benefit of better Anti Aliasing and a more stable frame rate in some spots.

No. The 360 version had a lot of jaggies, especially when comparing the hair quality of the characters. The PS3 version ran at 720p, while the 360 version was 576p..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpAmYoDFp_Q

Team Andromeda
03-21-2018, 04:25 AM
You're so full of shit. Here's the actual manuals from Microsoft for the Arcade, Pro models, Elite Models, etc.:

You are so full of insults. There was a limit of the size of the pen drive and external storage that could be hooked up, as well as a limit of the size of game files on XBLA which was increased over the years, its one of the reasons why Sumo had to cut content in the XBLA version of Outrun 2006 compared to the OG XBox version.
Over the years MS let all that go and you could even install games on your storages for better performance . . Now instead of getting nasty and insulting, just accept, yet again you were wrong, and it was eniterly possible to play GTA 5 on 360 without a Hardrive, which was just my point

Yes I know you are so desperate to get one over me, but sorry... it was possible for 360 to play GTA V without an HD, just like I said (shall I say LEARN TO READ) Also if the DC had been going for some 8 years. I would have expected SEGA to address DC lack of storage issue and would have either used a Zip Drive or an HD hard Drive add-on and tbf SEGA did confirm they were looking at that, back in the day.


Learn to read. I didn't say it wasn't a true GTA game. I said it wasn't the exact same game as Vice City.

Insults, the usual tell-tale sign you've been caught out. To play GTA Vice Stories on the PSP , was very much to play Vice City on the PS2. I think it had more content than GTA III too and it was all able to run on a Handheld with no HardDrive and only 1.5GB UMD for storage.
So I would have thought it was more than possible for the DC to handle GTA III, don't you?.

Leynos
03-21-2018, 04:32 AM
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/windows/xna/bb203938(v=xnagamestudio.41)

Team Andromeda
03-21-2018, 04:37 AM
No your original point was a game had to be playable on a arcade 360 with no additional storage requirements.

No, I said without a Hardrive and that's just what happened, you tried to name a 360 game that needed the HardDrive and I just said you didn't, because long before GTA V there were worries that id Mega Texture and its upcoming RAGE game couldn't possibly work on a 360 without an HD and MS looked to address it and also I seem to remember, also drop its charges on a 3rd party game using more than 1 DVD for RAGE too.
That's to overlook the Arcade unit could run Crackdown and GTA IV with no need for any Pen Drives too.


But you don't know if those games are being gimped or not.

Now we are changing our tune. Given that the PS2 and OG XBox was way more powerful than the DC, there would have been issued, unless the DC version was the lead. But given the PSP could run almost fullscale GTA games with no HD and where its UMD system could only handle a little more storage, than the DC's GB disc, then GTA III on the DC was more than possible. In just the same way there were very little games PS3 games that the 360 couldn't handle even with a huge data different between both systems medium (DVD Vs BluRay) there are very little games PS2 games that the DC couldn't have done really and knowing SEGA if the DC had taken off, we would have no doubt, would have had a Add-On to help with issues over stroage , for any game that really needed it.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2018, 02:54 PM
No. The 360 version had a lot of jaggies, especially when comparing the hair quality of the characters. The PS3 version ran at 720p, while the 360 version was 576p..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpAmYoDFp_Q

That's exactly what I said. The 360 version ran at a lower overall resolution.



You are so full of insults. There was a limit of the size of the pen drive and external storage that could be hooked up, as well as a limit of the size of game files on XBLA which was increased over the years, its one of the reasons why Sumo had to cut content in the XBLA version of Outrun 2006 compared to the OG XBox version.
Over the years MS let all that go and you could even install games on your storages for better performance . . Now instead of getting nasty and insulting, just accept, yet again you were wrong, and it was eniterly possible to play GTA 5 on 360 without a Hardrive, which was just my point

Yes I know you are so desperate to get one over me, but sorry... it was possible for 360 to play GTA V without an HD, just like I said (shall I say LEARN TO READ) Also if the DC had been going for some 8 years. I would have expected SEGA to address DC lack of storage issue and would have either used a Zip Drive or an HD hard Drive add-on and tbf SEGA did confirm they were looking at that, back in the day.

And now you're moving the goal posts again. First it was that no game could require a HDD or External storage because they all had to run on an Xbox 360 Arcade. Then it was that the HDD still couldn't be used, but USB drives could but they were limited to 2GB. Now it's that XBLA games were limited to 2GB. That's a completely different argument than what you originally proposed.

You do this all the time. You make some stupid outrageous claim, then when people call you out on it you ever so slightly move the goal posts to avoid admitting you were wrong. And you keep doing it until the argument becomes something completely different.

The facts of the matter are simple here. Retail Xbox 360 games could require a HDD or External Storage device larger than 2GB as early as 2006 when games like Phantasy Star Universe and FFXI came out. You were wrong about the 2GB limitation on USB devices. That was a limit on XBLA games. But we weren't talking about XBLA games, we were talking about full retail games. So that whole point is irrelevant.



Insults, the usual tell-tale sign you've been caught out. To play GTA Vice Stories on the PSP , was very much to play Vice City on the PS2. I think it had more content than GTA III too and it was all able to run on a Handheld with no HardDrive and only 1.5GB UMD for storage.
So I would have thought it was more than possible for the DC to handle GTA III, don't you?.

Again you've moved the goal posts. First you said GTA Vice City was on the PSP and fit on a UMD. It didn't, it was Vice City Stories which was a different game made for the PSP. When that was pointed out, you moved the goal posts and changed the argument to "It was a full GTA game that was just as good!". That changed the statement from a fact to an opinion and made it become completely pointless to the debate of disc space. Yeah it's a good game that fit on a UMD, but it wasn't the same as the PS2 game and isn't evidence that they could have crammed large PS2 games on to a GD-ROM.

A better system to look at here is the Gamecube. It's mini DVD format was similar in space to the GD-ROM and it had many games not get ported to the system, or ones that did were split across multiple discs or had content cut down.

Team Andromeda
03-21-2018, 03:45 PM
And now you're moving the goal posts again. First it was that no game could require a HDD or External storage because they all had to run on an Xbox 360 Arcade.

Nope, I said no HD and like usual you charge in, insult me and seem not to be well briefed. The 360 Arcade had USB ports in case it slipped your mind, all 360 retail games had to be able to run without an HD, it was a mandate off MS


but USB drives could but they were limited to 2GB. Now it's that XBLA games were limited to 2GB.
At the start they were, but then back in those days, MS was trying to sell on their way overpriced 360 Hard Drives, because back in the old days you could only use Official MS Harde Drives drives on a 360, unlike with the PS3.

What next couldn't the DC handle GTA III ?


First you said GTA Vice City was on the PSP and fit on a UMD
No I was talking of GT III, but Vice stories on the PSP is almost exactly like playing GTA Vice City on the PS2/XBox. That's all on an HH and with no HD and a storage medium hardly any bigger than the GB disc.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2018, 09:04 PM
Nope, I said no HD and like usual you charge in, insult me and seem not to be well briefed.

I know you said no HDD, which is what I said. Learn to read.


The 360 Arcade had USB ports in case it slipped your mind, all 360 retail games had to be able to run without an HD, it was a mandate off MS

Which was lifted pretty early on, as games like Phantasy Star Universe and Final Fantasy XI from 2006 show. Those games needed a HDD or some form of additional storage greater than 2GB.



At the start they were, but then back in those days, MS was trying to sell on their way overpriced 360 Hard Drives, because back in the old days you could only use Official MS Harde Drives drives on a 360, unlike with the PS3.

I can't find any evidence of that 2GB mandate. In fact they advertised being able to connect numerous USB devices that had far more than 2GB of space at the time. And again games like PSU and FFXI needed more than 2GB of space. The only thing close I can find is a limit on XBLA games, and that is something entirely different from what you're saying here.


What next couldn't the DC handle GTA III ?

Never said that and wasn't arguing it. I was simply pointing out that you're full of shit when it comes to the Xbox 360's hard drive requirements.



No I was talking of GT III, but Vice stories on the PSP is almost exactly like playing GTA Vice City on the PS2/XBox. That's all on an HH and with no HD and a storage medium hardly any bigger than the GB disc.

No, you're original statement was this:


Also, I think you overplay the size issue just a little too, we got Vice City on the PSP and its storage UMD was nothing to that of DVD and hardly much more than the DC or the Cube and that was for Vice City a game much lager than the likes of GT III.

Which isn't true. The PSP got it's own unique game called Vice City stories which was built from the ground up for the PSP and to fit on a UMD.

Leynos
03-21-2018, 09:09 PM
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/windows/xna/bb203938(v=xnagamestudio.41)



I posted the 2GB mandate

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2018, 09:17 PM
I posted the 2GB mandate

Do you know what XNA is? It's an API for INDIE developers to use for making Xbox Live Arcade games. That mandate doesn't apply to retail games, and probably not XBLA games made by big name studios. How do I know this? You could install your Xbox 360 games to your hard drive years prior to that documentation that were far larger than 2GB. You could and still can buy digital versions of games to have on your hard drive that were bigger than 2GB. Games like Final Fantasy XI and Phantasy Star Universe needed more than 2GB of HDD space long before that document was written.

In short, that mandate is irrelevant to this discussion and does not apply to retail games. It only applies to XBLA games made using XNA.

EDIT:

And to put this stupid debate to an end once and for all, here's the box for Final Fantasy XI on the 360 which released in 2006.:

http://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/l/280636-final-fantasy-xi-online-xbox-360-front-cover.jpg
http://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/l/280635-final-fantasy-xi-online-xbox-360-back-cover.jpg

Do you notice something it says? It says "This game requires: Hard Drive". And no, FFXI didn't support USB devices either. It went straight to the HDD and didn't give you an option for installing to a USB Flash drive. And I believe you'll find it needed around 13GB or more when it was all said and done.

Leynos
03-21-2018, 10:03 PM
Meh, whatever not on anyone's side and really paying half attention. I just remember Nintendo and MS had restrictions on game sizes for indie games. Wii was 40MB which wa insanely small and yet Fast Racing look incredible,same for Lost Winds.

Yharnamresident
03-22-2018, 01:46 AM
I would have expected SEGA to address DC lack of storage issue and would have either used a Zip Drive or an HD hard Drive add-on and tbf SEGA did confirm they were looking at that, back in the day.

1. Zip drives were ancient technology even back then thus I don't think that would've solved much
2. A hard drive add-on would've solved the problem, even if its essentially a cumbersome band-aid like the 64DD was



So I would have thought it was more than possible for the DC to handle GTA III, don't you?.Yes, but thats not a game we're concerned about. Games later in the gen like 2003/2004 is the concern. Even Ted Price of Insomniac said the first Ratchet and Clank was 4 GB in 2002. Thats a 2nd party game that couldn't be ported to any other systems, but its still an example of how big games were getting.



No, I said without a Hardrive and that's just what happened, you tried to name a 360 game that needed the HardDrive and I just said you didn't, because long before GTA V there were worries that id Mega Texture and its upcoming RAGE game couldn't possibly work on a 360 without an HD and MS looked to address it and also I seem to remember, also drop its charges on a 3rd party game using more than 1 DVD for RAGE too.
That's to overlook the Arcade unit could run Crackdown and GTA IV with no need for any Pen Drives too.Those are early gen games thus its not surprising.




Now we are changing our tune. Given that the PS2 and OG XBox was way more powerful than the DC, there would have been issued, unless the DC version was the lead.I would think the power difference between the OG Xbox vs PS2 is the same if not slightly greater than PS2 vs Dreamcast. It would make sense given the release dates.



And now you're moving the goal posts again. First it was that no game could require a HDD or External storage because they all had to run on an Xbox 360 Arcade. Then it was that the HDD still couldn't be used, but USB drives could but they were limited to 2GB. Now it's that XBLA games were limited to 2GB. That's a completely different argument than what you originally proposed.

You do this all the time. You make some stupid outrageous claim, then when people call you out on it you ever so slightly move the goal posts to avoid admitting you were wrong. And you keep doing it until the argument becomes something completely different.
Yea he just said it right here, it was literally "all 360 games had to work with the arcade 360":


All 360 games had to be able to run on the Arcade 360, so even a game was to big for a DVD it wouldn't have been possible to use the 360 HD, all 360 games had to be able to run a 360 without an HD.. Not having the latest HD DVD or Blueray playback or medium never hurt the 360 at all and most PS2 games would have worked on the DC storage wise.



Meh, whatever not on anyone's side and really paying half attention. I just remember Nintendo and MS had restrictions on game sizes for indie games. Wii was 40MB which wa insanely small and yet Fast Racing look incredible,same for Lost Winds.The Wii only has like 512 MB of flash memory, which I think was actually kinda impressive for 2006. In terms of flash memory.

Leynos
03-22-2018, 02:18 AM
There was a Zip drive for DC. Zip Drive had little success. 100MB discs more expensive than 650MB compact discs in the PC space.
https://i.imgur.com/r9o7L9e.jpg

DC didn't NEED an HDD. PS2 had an optional one very few owned. Like saying Game Boy Camera was essential to it. Yeah Wii had 512MB of flash memory but supported 2GB SD cards as well.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2018, 02:29 AM
There was a Zip drive for DC. Zip Drive had little success. 100MB discs more expensive than 650MB compact discs in the PC space.
https://i.imgur.com/r9o7L9e.jpg

Was that ever actually released officially? I thought all that existed were a few prototypes.


DC didn't NEED an HDD. PS2 had an optional one very few owned. Like saying Game Boy Camera was essential to it. Yeah Wii had 512MB of flash memory but supported 2GB SD cards as well.

I wouldn't say very few people owned the PS2 HDD. FFXI was quite popular and it's not that uncommon to come across a used PS2 that has a HDD in it.

But I'd agree the Dreamcast didn't need a HDD, but something better than GD-ROMs would have been nice. While the Dreamcast was still alive it wasn't as big of an issue, but as the Gamecube showed it would have quickly became an issue if it stuck around.

Leynos
03-22-2018, 02:45 AM
Well 157 million systems sold and whatever FFXI sold on PS2 is still a small amount of PS2 owners. Not every region got the HDD either. In 2006 Square said on PS2 there were 300K users online. That really is pretty small and that is giving the credit that all of them have the HDD. I don't think the UK did.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2018, 03:42 AM
Well 157 million systems sold and whatever FFXI sold on PS2 is still a small amount of PS2 owners. Not every region got the HDD either. In 2006 Square said on PS2 there were 300K users online. That really is pretty small and that is giving the credit that all of them have the HDD. I don't think the UK did.

All of those on PS2 for FFXI had to have the HDD. It was required to play the game. The game at it's peak had over 2 million players. Yes those weren't all PS2 players, but a decent amount probably were. Yeah it's just a drop in the bucket for total PS2 sales, it's still surprisingly not uncommon to find a PS2 with a HDD. It wasn't hard to hook up your own if you had the network adapter and other games did support it.

Team Andromeda
03-22-2018, 04:36 AM
I know you said no HDD,

Well, you got something right then.


Which was lifted pretty early on, as games like Phantasy Star Universe

? PSU could be played on an Arcade 360, maybe the PS2 version needed the HD, but not so on the 360. Final Fantasy XI everyone knows that was a special exception by MS more so as you could also bypass LIVE rules and play with PS2 players as well


I can't find any evidence of that 2GB mandate

Maybe you need to read, Games had to run with out a HD was the mandate. At the start of the 360 MS limited the size of the storage one could use on the 360 via the USA. Over the years MS began to increase that limit as the size of XBLA games. Like I said, If the DC were to have sold well, I would have expected SEGA to address the units lack of storage too.


I was simply pointing out that you're full of shit when it comes to the Xbox 360's hard drive requirement
Only I'm not... No GTA game on the 360 needed the HD to run and neither did PSU, I not insult you and say you are full of sh8t, but you were wrong and it should be noted that GTA III also came out on PC CD-ROM too.

Team Andromeda
03-22-2018, 04:48 AM
1. Zip drives were ancient technology even back then thus I don't think that would've .

Zip Drives were hardly ancient Tech in the late 90s and if the DC had been going for 8 years, I would have expected SEGA to have added more storage, more so as SEGA loved the Add-ons for its Mark III, MD, Sega Saturn.


I would think the power difference between the OG Xbox vs PS2 is the same if not slightly greater than PS2 vs Dreamcast.
OG XBox was a beast and also had the added benefit of a Hard Drive too and even more RAM. Given the DC lack of system RAM a game on the scale of GTA San Andreas would have been well beyond the system specs, never mind any sort of storage issue. I don't remember many developers moaning about the DC or Cube storage medium, it was more both systems lack of the main RAM.


Yea he just said it right here, it was literally "all 360 games had to work with the arcade 360

Yeah and that was the mandate, but you can always be granted exceptions like how EA was able to have their own servers over LIVE on the OG XBox, or how Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was able to break MS 360 then 50 MB XBox LIVE mandated download limit or the 720p 360 mandate too and where beforehand certain developers were granted exceptions . Its nothing new with MS even SEGA was allowed to bring Football Manager to the 360.

Leynos
03-22-2018, 05:10 AM
All of those on PS2 for FFXI had to have the HDD. It was required to play the game. The game at it's peak had over 2 million players. Yes those weren't all PS2 players, but a decent amount probably were. Yeah it's just a drop in the bucket for total PS2 sales, it's still surprisingly not uncommon to find a PS2 with a HDD. It wasn't hard to hook up your own if you had the network adapter and other games did support it.

I just know the HDD was canceled in some regions despite the game being sold there. The HDD really wasn't that common. I already stated the numbers. 300K was PS2 at peak. God, I hope this is not an SMS debate all over again how uncommon the HDD was because if so let me know now so I can jump off early.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2018, 09:07 AM
Well, you got something right then.

So now we're backpedaling... :roll:


PSU could be played on an Arcade 360, maybe the PS2 version needed the HD, but not so on the 360. Final Fantasy XI everyone knows that was a special exception by MS more so as you could also bypass LIVE rules and play with PS2 players as well

PS2 did not require a HDD for PSU, all it's data was on the game disc. 360 however used it when the expansion came out in 2007 as it was a downloadable add-on. For PS2 and PC you bought a new disc and played off of just that disc. A couple years later there were some new updates that required more space on the 360 and PC for new weapon models and what not. PS2 instead pulled a PSOv1 and had the weapons available, but they used existing weapon models off the disc.

And FFXI is staring you right in the face as requiring a HDD as early as 2006. MS may have bent over backwards for it, but more in the sense of that's when that particular mandate disappeared. The fun thing is, the Arcade package didn't even exist back then. It was the Core Package, and those games still technically ran on the Core/360. The user simply needed to buy a HDD separately.




Maybe you need to read, Games had to run with out a HD was the mandate. At the start of the 360 MS limited the size of the storage one could use on the 360 via the USA. Over the years MS began to increase that limit as the size of XBLA games. Like I said, If the DC were to have sold well, I would have expected SEGA to address the units lack of storage too.

The only limit I've ever seen was on XBLA games. Not on retail games, games being able to use the HDD, or even what was limited over USB flash drives. There's no evidence of any of that in any of the manuals or documentation available. If you're going to make this claim, you need to back it up with hard facts.

There's also the fact that a HDD was required to play original Xbox games right out of the gate in 2005. Oh and look at this article from February 2006:
https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2006/02/6138-2/

Sega's Football Manager was apparently the first to require a HDD in 2006. Let's look at the box just to be sure:

https://segaretro.org/images/0/04/FootballManager2006_360_UK_cover.jpg

Yep, there it is. "Hard Disk Drive Required" is stamped right there in plain sight on the front of the box.



Only I'm not...

What's the name of that river in Egypt that flows north?



No GTA game on the 360 needed the HD to run and neither did PSU,

GTA 5 did later on. Yeah you could trick it with a USB thumb drive, but that still needed to be larger than 8GB. For PSU, you definitely needed a HDD for updates if you played online. The Expansion was download only and later updates did use a little more space as well.



I not insult you and say you are full of sh8t

You insult mine and everyone else's intelligence with every argument you try to make that's blatantly false.


it should be noted that GTA III also came out on PC CD-ROM too.

And spanned multiple CDs, as was the norm for many PC games on CD-ROM of that time. I remember games like Diablo 2 and Sims 2 spanning over 4 CDs.


I just know the HDD was canceled in some regions despite the game being sold there. The HDD really wasn't that common. I already stated the numbers. 300K was PS2 at peak. God, I hope this is not an SMS debate all over again how uncommon the HDD was because if so let me know now so I can jump off early.

You do realize that every Network Adapter for the original PS2 has the IDE and Molex connector allowing anyone to connect any IDE HDD to it correct? A lot of Network Adapters were sold as the PS2 had quite a decent amount of online games. Being easy to install a HDD of your own makes it's not that uncommon to find PS2s with HDDs in them in the wild.

FFXI came with one because it was the only game that flat out required the HDD to play.

Leynos
03-22-2018, 09:14 AM
Also, MS offered Memory cards for 360 early on. 512MB.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2018, 09:21 AM
Also, MS offered Memory cards for 360 early on. 512MB.

Which even 512MB really wouldn't be enough for games like Phantasy Star Universe or FFXI which required GBs of space for their updates and expansions.

Leynos
03-22-2018, 09:40 AM
Which even 512MB really wouldn't be enough for games like Phantasy Star Universe or FFXI which required GBs of space for their updates and expansions.

I'm not arguing one way or another. Just putting the info out there.

Team Andromeda
03-22-2018, 01:44 PM
So now we're backpedaling.

Hardly... I did say maybe when the new 360 style model was brought in, learn to READ ;).


360 however used it when the expansion came out in 2007 as it was a downloadable add-on.
That's DLC, the game could be played on a 360 without an HD. Seems I'm not the only one Backtracking


For PSU, you definitely needed a HDD for updates if you played online
You needed extra storage for a lot of stuff, which was why MS limits were daft and always being revised and exceptions made. The XBLA 50 MB download limit was daft from the start as was the price MS asked for a 360 HD or not being able to use a 3rd party one


GTA 5 did later on

I think you could play it without an HD, after MS ditched its storage limits, but that was 8 years down the line if we talking GTA V. Poor old GTA IV, Crackdown, 1 Ect had to be able to be played with no HD


And spanned multiple CD

2 wasn't it? Hardly a mammoth amount even by PC CD-Rom standards I still have Ripper on the PC and that came on 6.


Yep, there it is. "Hard Disk Drive Required"
Yep, When you brought up SEGAs PSU I remember right next to my copy of PSU, is 360 Footy Manager. But again I covered my bases with how there's always exceptions to mandates. id was allowed an 8 Gig install for RAGE on the PS3 (which went against SONY policy) and got special help for 360 RAGE, EA was able to break the LIVE mandate able use its own servers on the OG XBox or how certain developers were allowed to break the 720p XBox 360 mandate.

That's over the course of time and in a perfect world and one where the DC sold as good as the 360, I would have to have expected SEGA to have sorted out DC storages issues some 4 years into the console or 8 if we are talking FF and GTA V on the 360 life cycle. This was SEGA who loved to make Add-Ons for most of its consoles .

gamevet
03-22-2018, 03:14 PM
All of those on PS2 for FFXI had to have the HDD. It was required to play the game. The game at it's peak had over 2 million players. Yes those weren't all PS2 players, but a decent amount probably were. Yeah it's just a drop in the bucket for total PS2 sales, it's still surprisingly not uncommon to find a PS2 with a HDD. It wasn't hard to hook up your own if you had the network adapter and other games did support it.

The game was sold with the HDD for the PS2. My local Walmart had one sitting behind the glass for years.

j_factor
03-22-2018, 10:48 PM
There was a Zip drive for DC. Zip Drive had little success. 100MB discs more expensive than 650MB compact discs in the PC space.

Yeah... The unreleased Zip drive was pretty ill-advised all around. It would not have been very good with only 100MB disks. Even a small, cheap hard drive at the time would've been equivalent to a large stack of Zip disks and would've been cheaper and faster at reading and writing. Zip drives were pretty old and already obsoleted in the PC world by both CD-Rs and their own successor in Jaz drives. Zip drives had declining presence by 1999 as well as a bad reputation (they were hit with a class-action suit even) and the only reason there was any remaining market for them at all is that they were still cheaper than a CD burner (and newer ones were higher capacity than the original 100MB). But the DC one wouldn't have been cheap. It's confirmed in interviews with Sega people that the DC Zip drive would have cost $200 which is why it didn't get released. The original PC Zip drive cost $200 back in 1994. 5+ years later that's a ripoff. That it had to have a different connector and a differently shaped case isn't enough to excuse it.

Jaz "disks" were just little hard drives, by the way. There were also a bunch of alternatives to Zip that might have been worth a look. They lacked the name recognition and market presence of Zip but that's irrelevant for a DC-specific drive. Some company peddling a superior but unpopular Zip alternative might have given Sega a better deal.


DC didn't NEED an HDD. PS2 had an optional one very few owned.

Eh. I remember reading a feature about the development of the original Xbox and it was stated that the decision to include a hard drive in the console was inspired by the Dreamcast's lack of a hard drive, which they felt was one of its major downfalls. Especially for online stuff. I remember a lot of people complaining about how easy it was to fill a VMU even with regular game saves; for downloading anything they were kind of pathetic. You can see in the few attempts at DLC for Dreamcast games that they were very hampered by the small size of the VMU and lack of other options. The official 4X memory card was not much better because it was split into four separate banks.

I don't think the PS2 comparison is very apt, for a number of reasons. The main one being that Sega had a declared strategy of pushing internet capabilities as a major aspect of the system and Sony did not. Every Dreamcast from launch came with a modem, while it was almost two years (in North America) for the PS2's separate $40 network adapter to become available, and the network adapter is required to connect the hard drive at all. The network adapter wasn't a huge seller initially due to an overall lack of high-profile support. The hard drive was mainly an FF11 thing -- mostly sold as a bundle, the only game that required it and the only game to really make major use of it (a handful of games supported it in minor ways). Whereas what we're talking about with the Dreamcast likely would've been a more general purpose thing not tied to one game. The PS2 hard drive was only on the market for a couple of years, starting pretty far into the system's lifespan. They didn't bother making the slim model compatible with the hard drive even though it wasn't that old and was still on store shelves (though not for much longer). IIRC the two different PS2 hard drives (the FF11 one and the Linux one) were not interchangeable despite being the same capacity and using the same connection. There's a lot of issues.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-22-2018, 11:16 PM
Hardly... I did say maybe when the new 360 style model was brought in, learn to READ ;).

Except that's not true either. By 2009 that mandate was long gone and the original model was still the one being sold.



That's DLC, the game could be played on a 360 without an HD. Seems I'm not the only one Backtracking

When to play online you're required to get the expansion, it stops being optional DLC. Being able to play online with Vanilla PSU didn't last very long after the expansion came out and just about everyone upgraded to it.



You needed extra storage for a lot of stuff, which was why MS limits were daft and always being revised and exceptions made. The XBLA 50 MB download limit was daft from the start as was the price MS asked for a 360 HD or not being able to use a 3rd party one

The mandate on no retail games requiring a HDD went away very quickly, if it even existed at all. How many games do you need to label as exceptions before you just admit you're wrong on this one?

And yes, the XBLA limitation was real. But that's not what we're debating here.



I think you could play it without an HD, after MS ditched its storage limits, but that was 8 years down the line if we talking GTA V. Poor old GTA IV, Crackdown, 1 Ect had to be able to be played with no HD

Those storage limits were ditched long before GTAV was a thing as is obvious from the games requiring a HDD as early as 2006. Not only that Backwards compatibility required a HDD back in 2005. And I've still not found any evidence of a 2GB limitation on USB storage devices.



2 wasn't it? Hardly a mammoth amount even by PC CD-Rom standards I still have Ripper on the PC and that came on 6.

The PC can also handle better compression most likely.



Yep, When you brought up SEGAs PSU I remember right next to my copy of PSU, is 360 Footy Manager. But again I covered my bases with how there's always exceptions to mandates. id was allowed an 8 Gig install for RAGE on the PS3 (which went against SONY policy) and got special help for 360 RAGE, EA was able to break the LIVE mandate able use its own servers on the OG XBox or how certain developers were allowed to break the 720p XBox 360 mandate.

No it's called you're making up bullshit to avoid admitting you're wrong. You've yet to provide any evidence of this mandate. And I find it funny that Microsoft would make an exception for Sega to allow HDDs being required for their games, but not make an exception for them having their PSU servers connect to the PC/PS2 servers and an exception to not pay for title updates like they did for Square Enix with FFXI. Maybe the HDD limit wasn't actually a mandate and Sega didn't get an exception?

Yharnamresident
03-23-2018, 02:02 AM
But I'd agree the Dreamcast didn't need a HDD, but something better than GD-ROMs would have been nice. While the Dreamcast was still alive it wasn't as big of an issue, but as the Gamecube showed it would have quickly became an issue if it stuck around.Thats all I've been trying to say during almost this entire thread.



DC didn't NEED an HDD. PS2 had an optional one very few owned. Like saying Game Boy Camera was essential to it. Yeah Wii had 512MB of flash memory but supported 2GB SD cards as well.
But the PS2 could use 8.7 GB DVDs, thats 7x the storage of GD-ROMs. So the PS2 HDD didn't need to use it in the purpose of additional storage.

Of course if the Dreamcast had a HDD add-on, it would've been a finicky and cumbersome situation. Games would have to come on 4 GD-ROMs still, because I doubt if would've been fine to be downloading 4 GB patches in the early 2000s.



OG XBox was a beast and also had the added benefit of a Hard Drive too and even more RAM. Given the DC lack of system RAM a game on the scale of GTA San Andreas would have been well beyond the system specs, never mind any sort of storage issue. I don't remember many developers moaning about the DC or Cube storage medium, it was more both systems lack of the main RAM.
But the bigger bottle neck between the two is storage space. The PS2 has 1/3 more RAM than the Dreamcast(and its faster RAM), but I looked at the PS2 ISO and its 2.4 GB compressed. The Steam page says the game needs 3.6 GB HDD space.

And the game is still strangely expensive on Steam.



No it's called you're making up bullshit to avoid admitting you're wrong. You've yet to provide any evidence of this mandate. And I find it funny that Microsoft would make an exception for Sega to allow HDDs being required for their games, but not make an exception for them having their PSU servers connect to the PC/PS2 servers and an exception to not pay for title updates like they did for Square Enix with FFXI. Maybe the HDD limit wasn't actually a mandate and Sega didn't get an exception?This is so hard core obvious. The guy is trying to find anyway to avoid being wrong.

Team Andromeda
03-23-2018, 06:05 AM
Yeah... The unreleased Zip drive was pretty ill-advised all around. It would not have been very good with only 100MB disks. Even a small, cheap hard drive at the time would've been equivalent to a large stack of Zip disks and would've been cheaper and faster at reading and writing. Zip drives were pretty old and already obsoleted in the PC world by both CD-Rs and their own successor in Jaz drives. Zip drives had declining presence by 1999 as well as a bad reputation (they were hit with a class-action suit even) and the only reason there was any remaining market for them at all is that they were still cheaper than a CD burner (and newer ones were higher capacity than the original 100MB). But the DC one wouldn't have been cheap. It's confirmed in interviews with Sega people that the DC Zip drive would have cost $200 which is why it didn't get released. The original PC Zip drive cost $200 back in 1994. 5+ years later that's a ripoff. That it had to have a different connector and a differently shaped case isn't enough to excuse it.

In the late 90s. Zip drives were cheaper and faster than a quite a few Hard Drives and also the best part was it was completely portable and easy to move from PC to PC , no having to install and open up ones PC, like you did with the HD, that's why I was looking into getting one for my PC in 97 and even then lots of the PX stores in my aera had Zip drives it was still quite popular (not many knew back then of its issues). Mass storage in the 90s wasn't going to be cheap whatever SEGA was looking at. I guess SEGA was looking at a lot of things, its planned MP3 VMU unit would have needed a lot of storage to store enough music to make it viable


The official 4X memory card was not much better because it was split into four separate banks
Yes and it was also incompatible with some games too, not SEGA finest Hour.