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IrishNinja
02-14-2018, 08:00 PM
right then, i've heard this one for ages & figured this was a great place to really get into it. i don't have the specifics on hand & would welcome anyone citing stuff for or agaisnt this argument, as it's been ages, but the popular meme goes like this:

"Playstation 2 sold gangbusters, and the jump to DVD was so big, entire shops came about in akiba/etc. therefore, if Dreamcast would've had DVD, it would've been okay (or at least lived longer)."

for this discussion, let's table a few very large things


sega was hemorrhaging money already and had killed most of their other revenue streams in the gen prior (i forget what year their biggest benefactor died as well)
sony's momentum going into that gen was historically tremendous ("toy story graphics!", "it's a WMD on planes" etc type shit)



so, '97 was infamous for their R&D woes with 3DFX & such, you already had deep divides between SOJ & SOA that we've talked about on here for ages. this argument presupposes that:


DVD was necessary compared to CD sizes (where sega ended up pursuing their own proprietary format, but it was still silly to imagine a lotta devs were chiming for this amount of space at the time)
DVD was a cheap format to develop for - again taking into account damaged 3rd party relations, and now factor in licensing costs for a format they're not in on
a DVD player in your system would be in any way cost efficient: bear in mind both the timing of Sony dropping an affordable DVD player with their system, and their ability to eat off the format as well/lose less on hardware they (i want to say at this point) owned factories producing.


all that to say: sega should somehow be expected to jack up the price of their hardware (losing more on it, nevermind the cost of DVD diodes then), share some % of software royalties because of the format, and do so going head-to-head with a megacorporation that has none of these weakness going in - on the gamble that consumers would jump in, rather than waiting on PS2 (as so many did) for what was likely a better deal.

and all this before we look at what Moore said the formula was: since they were taking a hit on the hardware ($199 to keep things competitive), they needed software to hit a level of profitability that, if i recall correctly, was somewhere in the 18 month (US release) period - that was, before piracy & other factors came into play. i can't stress how much all of this strategy falls apart by making the system $299, assuming a DVD player at that point wouldn't have been an even bigger hit.
the entire tactic was to be first and cheaper than the looming behemoth, and the very risk some folks seem to think they should've taken would've literally ruined all of that. they'dve been the underdog, asking for about the same amount of money, for something likely worse off & cutting edge that the market wasn't quite ready for at that exact moment - and you gotta figure they learned that lesson from sega-CD & so many other attempts.

i feel like there'd already been a shift the gen prior when sony came in & gave devs C++ (?) toolkits & the like, but here we really start seeing where old school sega/nintendo were learning they couldn't compete on the same terms as companies like sony & MS that could survive hemorrhaging billions in the short term for a long term profit down the road (MS would do that the same gen, sony the following).

...what do you guys think? am i wrong here?

Tower of Power
02-14-2018, 09:42 PM
I think you're right, a DVD drive wouldn't have saved Sega. It might have helped for some consumers, but as far as everything else goes, it would have just been a drop in the bucket. Sega was already doing the traditional things right, they had better games than Sony, a game changer like infinitely better online connectivity, cheap easy to develop for hardware, etc and still got crushed. The hype machine for Sony was too strong, I remember people at the time were totally blinded, they weren't judging the systems on their own merits, they were judging them on the success/failure of previous consoles.

Iron Lizard
02-14-2018, 09:55 PM
The Dreamcast could have done kids homework,transformed into a break dancing robot, granted wishes or printed money and it wouldn't have mattered. Everyone was hot on the DC until the specter and eventual release of PS2. At that point everyone just dropped their Dreamcasts on the floor wondering over like Zombies to line up and buy PS2s

IrishNinja
02-14-2018, 10:04 PM
I think you're right, a DVD drive wouldn't have saved Sega. It might have helped for some consumers, but as far as everything else goes, it would have just been a drop in the bucket.

exactly - i think many share the sentiment that the DC had AM2, Smilebit & others firing on all cylinders, but sadly the mistakes of the past & sony's monumental hype were just too much.

still, i can't stress enough: raising the system's price for an early DVD player would've likely meant an even smaller install base, with an even longer timeline until profitability. i literally can't see a situation where that would've benefit them.

gamevet
02-15-2018, 01:08 AM
I think you're right, a DVD drive wouldn't have saved Sega. It might have helped for some consumers, but as far as everything else goes, it would have just been a drop in the bucket. Sega was already doing the traditional things right, they had better games than Sony, a game changer like infinitely better online connectivity, cheap easy to develop for hardware, etc and still got crushed. The hype machine for Sony was too strong, I remember people at the time were totally blinded, they weren't judging the systems on their own merits, they were judging them on the success/failure of previous consoles.

It's hard to put fault on the owners of the record setting PlayStation for waiting on the PS2. Just look at the N64, it sold 18 million units in North America, because there were a lot of people still buying and playing games on their SNES when the console came out. The Saturn should have came out in 1994 for North America and any thought of add-on to keep the Genesis going there should have been kicked to the curb. Then the Dreamcast should have arrived in 1998 to keep the momentum going.

Kamahl
02-15-2018, 03:06 AM
DVD wouldn't have helped in any way. Sega would not have been able to afford a Movie Player license, not even Microsoft was willing to eat that cost with the Xbox.
If Sega had gone with DVD, the DC would have cost another min $50, more likely $100, and would still need a separate purchase for DVD movie playback. Or people could just wait for the PS2 and get movie playback and (overhyped) game console at the same time.

What the Dreamcast needed was for the previous failures to not have happened. There was nothing it could have done.

Maybe having a decent controller instead of that piece of crap would have given it another year ;)

IrishNinja
02-15-2018, 04:15 AM
it's funny; i missed the saturn in the day, but i thought the DC controller was alright at the time, just weird cord placement (cause of the VMU). i had a genny six-button but i didn't use it much. looking back...yeah, it was a huge step back, ergonomic wise


It's hard to put fault on the owners of the record setting PlayStation for waiting on the PS2. Just look at the N64, it sold 18 million units in North America, because there were a lot of people still buying and playing games on their SNES when the console came out. The Saturn should have came out in 1994 for North America and any thought of add-on to keep the Genesis going there should have been kicked to the curb. Then the Dreamcast should have arrived in 1998 to keep the momentum going.

i still can't wrap my brain around them killing the genesis, game gear (which i believe was still profitable) etc when they did. still, would releasing it 6 or so months earlier have done much? i guess you'dve caught that holiday season, but $400 wouldn't have been any easier then either
but you're right, the crux of it was splitting markets, confusing consumers and pushing away devs in the process.

bultje112
02-15-2018, 07:16 AM
the dreamcast could've been saved if sega had billions of extra dollars so they could extend it's support. keep in mind still hundreds of games were in development for it in 2001. it had far better 3rd party support than gamecube for instance.

Tower of Power
02-15-2018, 11:21 AM
It's hard to put fault on the owners of the record setting PlayStation for waiting on the PS2. Just look at the N64, it sold 18 million units in North America, because there were a lot of people still buying and playing games on their SNES when the console came out. The Saturn should have came out in 1994 for North America and any thought of add-on to keep the Genesis going there should have been kicked to the curb. Then the Dreamcast should have arrived in 1998 to keep the momentum going.

People are simple creatures, it was a popularity contest. The Playstation name was more popular than the Sega brand at that time, so that was it, and Sega didn't have the cash to overcome that.

I was a Playstation owner (didn't own a Saturn until after it was dead), but I did my research, I saw what were at the time the amazing games coming out. I do blame people for being absolutely blinded by the name, and not giving the Dreamcast the benefit of the doubt. I do blame people for buying into the hype of an empty name, instead of seeing the amazing, ground breaking console right in front of them. Online play on consoles is huge now, and Sega was pushing it as an important service way before anyone else.

Greg2600
02-15-2018, 11:37 AM
A lot of people bought a DC early on, it was a lot more successful than the Saturn in that regard, and had real Sonic games! I personally chose the Xbox over the Gamecube because it played DVD's. DVD playback was def. one of the PS2's selling points, although the failure rate on those early phat ones sure made a bigger stink. I am not an early adopter, so I wait. By the time I myself even began to consider a new system (after N64), the DC was already being shut down.

DVD or not, Sega bungled by making the games too easy to pirate. Granted this was more prevalent once the system was a few years in, but nonetheless a problem. The marketing budget, as well as development budget, obviously weren't going to get it done.

gamevet
02-15-2018, 12:21 PM
Eh, I had a $140 Sony DVD player that I got before getting a PS2.





i still can't wrap my brain around them killing the genesis, game gear (which i believe was still profitable) etc when they did. still, would releasing it 6 or so months earlier have done much? i guess you'dve caught that holiday season, but $400 wouldn't have been any easier then either
but you're right, the crux of it was splitting markets, confusing consumers and pushing away devs in the process.

Holiday 94 is a lot better than a month before everyone is going on Summer holidays and taking family vacations out of town.

They could of had a better version of Star Wars Arcade and Virtua Racing available, as well as 3rd party support. They weren't selling software for the Saturn during the summer of 1995, because 3rd parties weren't ready for it. And they could have avoided certain retail chains boycotting, or treating the Saturn like it wasn't on their shelves, like what happened because of the surprise launch.

EclecticGroove
02-15-2018, 02:13 PM
I agree DVD wouldn't have saved it. The way Sega was back then, they would have had to do some sort of cost saving measure like MS did (use DVD, but not play DVD's without buying something else). What they needed was the money to go head to head with Sony enough to survive in one way or another, and DVD would not have done anything for that on its own.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-15-2018, 03:27 PM
No, an inbuilt DVD player would not have saved the Dreamcast. The die had already been cast and the incredible success of the PS1 meant that anticipation and hype for the PS2 was unreal. There was nothing Sega could do at that point but they tried, bless 'em. My first job after leaving school in 2000 was working at a HMV store (chain of shops here in the UK that sells movies, CDs, vinyl, games...) and I was doing everything I could to help push the Sega display in the shop, including spending a lot of my own money on games and peripherals for my beloved Dreamcast. However the hype for the PS2 was unreal and when it launched people went nuts for it. I do remember feeling that the writing was on the wall for Sega when I noticed that the Dreamcasts that we were getting delivered to us from Sega had started coming with a DVD player thrown in alongside it. To combat the PS2 here in the UK Sega actually started giving DVD players away free if you bought a Dreamcast! That struck me as a desperation move, brave but desperate, and lo and behold in early 2001 Sega made it's sad announcement that it was pulling out of the hardware business. I remember I was on my break at work when I read that statement from Sega and actually felt like crying. :(

IrishNinja
02-15-2018, 05:12 PM
To combat the PS2 here in the UK Sega actually started giving DVD players away free if you bought a Dreamcast! That struck me as a desperation move, brave but desperate, and lo and behold in early 2001 Sega made it's sad announcement that it was pulling out of the hardware business. I remember I was on my break at work when I read that statement from Sega and actually felt like crying. :(

we all did, man
and damn, had no idea they were bundling that way - that is crazy. must've been absolutely heartbreaking seeing that up close, too.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-15-2018, 05:17 PM
we all did, man
and damn, had no idea they were bundling that way - that is crazy. must've been absolutely heartbreaking seeing that up close, too.

Yeah it was. It just felt like Sega were all out of ideas at that point and they knew it. They just did not have the financial muscle to go toe to toe with Sony. It was truly the end of an era.

gamevet
02-15-2018, 06:46 PM
I already had a launch Dreamcast. SEGA of America was offering a free Dreamcast with a subscription to their online service provider. They offered a free keyboard and up to $200 to existing DC owners that subscribed. I called them and got a free DC keyboard along with a $100 check.

Yharnamresident
02-15-2018, 08:01 PM
Heres the thing:

I'm right in-between the people who say the Dreamcast needed a DVD player, and the people who say it didn't.

The proper solution would've been to have some electronics company make a DVD clone format for the Dreamcast, maybe with 3-4 GB discs. With no DVD movie playback. That way they could avoid most licensing costs, but they'd still have to deal with manufacturing costs. So the Dreamcast would cost $300, maybe with a RAM upgrade also.

The Dreamcast wasn't gonna last until 2002/2003 with those 1 GB discs. Like we all saw how the GameCube didn't get much 3rd party support, and when it did, it got crappy ports with the game split between 2 discs and/or insanely compressed FMV and audio. And that was with 1.4 GB miniDVDs.

Like sure, developers didn't need 3-4 GBs of space in 1998, but we're talking about long-term sustainability until like 2004.



i feel like there'd already been a shift the gen prior when sony came in & gave devs C++ (?) toolkits & the like, but here we really start seeing where old school sega/nintendo were learning they couldn't compete on the same terms as companies like sony & MS that could survive hemorrhaging billions in the short term for a long term profit down the road (MS would do that the same gen, sony the following).


Yea that definitely happened. During the GameCube's lifespan, there was a decision made at Nintendo that they can't compete head to head with these companies. So they went down this path of gimmicky underpowered hardware starting with the Wii and DS.


DVD wouldn't have helped in any way. Sega would not have been able to afford a Movie Player license, not even Microsoft was willing to eat that cost with the Xbox.
If Sega had gone with DVD, the DC would have cost another min $50, more likely $100, and would still need a separate purchase for DVD movie playback. Or people could just wait for the PS2 and get movie playback and (overhyped) game console at the same time.

Yea people who say the Dreamcast should've had a DVD player, aren't completely educated on licensing. The reason Sony was able to put a DVD player in the PS2 with no bullshit involved(unlike OG Xbox), is because they co-created the format with Phillips(I think this the right company). What are they gonna do, pay royalties to themselves for using the format?



What the Dreamcast needed was for the previous failures to not have happened. There was nothing it could have done.Exactly. Profitless mess after profitless mess, by the time the Dreamcast was released, they were practically out of money



Maybe having a decent controller instead of that piece of crap would have given it another year ;)You just keep getting more and more accurate

IrishNinja
02-15-2018, 09:41 PM
^you're not wrong about GC disc size, but was it really that big an issue? i imagine it didn't help porting, but showing up late, coming off the N64 & facing the gargantuan PS2 were the main problems; if the GC were in a better market spot, i wonder how much media size would matter.

i similarly recall concerns last gen with MS still using DVD, but since they were lead platform for much of the gen, it was rarely an issue


I already had a launch Dreamcast. SEGA of America was offering a free Dreamcast with a subscription to their online service provider. They offered a free keyboard and up to $200 to existing DC owners that subscribed. I called them and got a free DC keyboard along with a $100 check.

jesus christ
i bought a keyboard & sub'd at one point, i wanna say when it ran out i rented a 2k sports game because a friend told me the trial wouldn't run out (and i recall it didn't, played PSO right up till about when sega.net went down)

gamevet
02-15-2018, 10:29 PM
You had to sign up with their internet partner, EarthLink. I believe others used their existing internet services like AOL and it worked as well. You just didn't get the free Dreamcast and other offers from SEGA.

Yharnamresident
02-15-2018, 11:18 PM
^you're not wrong about GC disc size, but was it really that big an issue? i imagine it didn't help porting, but showing up late, coming off the N64 & facing the gargantuan PS2 were the main problems; if the GC were in a better market spot, i wonder how much media size would matter.

i similarly recall concerns last gen with MS still using DVD, but since they were lead platform for much of the gen, it was rarely an issue


But the 360 has a hard-drive which makes a world of difference. Like with GTA V, the first 8 GBs is installed from the first disc into the HDD, and then you use the second disc to play.

Leynos
02-19-2018, 05:26 PM
I think SEGA should have partnered with MS in that MS handled the hardware and SEGA put their name on it, included the DVD drive and would not hurt if it had it. Not totally different how Nvidia designed and manufactured Switch insides with Nintendo just approving it(yeah yeah I know it's downclocked stock X1). Worldwide release in 1999 and keep the 9/9/99 as marketing for every region. With the partnership, SEGA would not have had to front all the costs. Split the revenue on the sales. Likely still would have lost to PS2 as Sony was on high momentum but be competitive. As it is I look at Xbox as the continuation of Dreamcast and 360 as close as we got to Dreamcast 2. XBO...lol Nah.



PS Not a popular opinion but I LOVE the DC controller. I do think it could have used the second analog.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-19-2018, 06:06 PM
I think SEGA should have partnered with MS in that MS handled the hardware and SEGA put their name on it, included the DVD drive and would not hurt if it had it. Not totally different how Nvidia designed and manufactured Switch insides with Nintendo just approving it(yeah yeah I know it's downclocked stock X1). Worldwide release in 1999 and keep the 9/9/99 as marketing for every region. With the partnership, SEGA would not have had to front all the costs. Split the revenue on the sales. Likely still would have lost to PS2 as Sony was on high momentum but be competitive. As it is I look at Xbox as the continuation of Dreamcast and 360 as close as we got to Dreamcast 2. XBO...lol Nah.



PS Not a popular opinion but I LOVE the DC controller. I do think it could have used the second analog.

The Dreamcast's controller was fine for everything but beat-'em-ups imo. It wasn't too bad for 3D beat-'em-ups but trying to master 2D fighters like Marvel vs Capcom 2 or Capcom vs SNK was not pleasant using the original controller, to put it mildly.

Ecco
02-19-2018, 06:45 PM
The Dreamcast's controller was fine for everything but beat-'em-ups imo. It wasn't too bad for 3D beat-'em-ups but trying to master 2D fighters like Marvel vs Capcom 2 or Capcom vs SNK was not pleasant using the original controller, to put it mildly.

I never minded the DC controller. Sure it's kinda strange, but way better than the N64 controller, which I think is the proper comparison. DC controller can at least be held comfortably.

The lack of 6-button lay-out is unfortunate, although I never use all 6 buttons in any fighting game lol. Like for SFII, I only use the Strong and the Weak attacks, never the Medium attack buttons. So really, don't most people only use 4 buttons for such games lol. I used to play a lot of Marvel vs. Capcom2, and it seemed nice.

Re: DVD player: I actually do think that this is why the PS2 sold so well (and why the DC died so fast without DVD player). In fact, I bought my PS2 Slim just to be a cool DVD player (not for its games). So yeah, I think it would have helped the DC greatly, if Sega could figure out how to include DVD player at a reasonable cost.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-19-2018, 07:53 PM
I never minded the DC controller. Sure it's kinda strange, but way better than the N64 controller, which I think is the proper comparison. DC controller can at least be held comfortably.

The lack of 6-button lay-out is unfortunate, although I never use all 6 buttons in any fighting game lol. Like for SFII, I only use the Strong and the Weak attacks, never the Medium attack buttons. So really, don't most people only use 4 buttons for such games lol. I used to play a lot of Marvel vs. Capcom2, and it seemed nice.

Re: DVD player: I actually do think that this is why the PS2 sold so well (and why the DC died so fast without DVD player). In fact, I bought my PS2 Slim just to be a cool DVD player (not for its games). So yeah, I think it would have helped the DC greatly, if Sega could figure out how to include DVD player at a reasonable cost.

Oh the N64's controller was terrible! The Dreamcast's controller was far from perfect but it wasn't that bad I agree.

Yharnamresident
02-19-2018, 09:31 PM
I think SEGA should have partnered with MS in that MS handled the hardware and SEGA put their name on it, included the DVD drive and would not hurt if it had it. Not totally different how Nvidia designed and manufactured Switch insides with Nintendo just approving it(yeah yeah I know it's downclocked stock X1). Worldwide release in 1999 and keep the 9/9/99 as marketing for every region. With the partnership, SEGA would not have had to front all the costs. Split the revenue on the sales. Likely still would have lost to PS2 as Sony was on high momentum but be competitive. As it is I look at Xbox as the continuation of Dreamcast and 360 as close as we got to Dreamcast 2. XBO...lol Nah.
But it wouldn't have felt like a Sega console. Different teams produce different products.

Its kinda like how people want Sega to make a console today, its not gonna feel like a Sega console because the company exists in name only. Every notable person has left the company.



The lack of 6-button lay-out is unfortunate, although I never use all 6 buttons in any fighting game lol. Like for SFII, I only use the Strong and the Weak attacks, never the Medium attack buttons. So really, don't most people only use 4 buttons for such games lol. I used to play a lot of Marvel vs. Capcom2, and it seemed nice.People think 6 buttons would've been better because its a way to combat the 4 shoulder buttons on PS2.

Also people who say the Dreamcast controller didn't need more buttons, thats like asking a fish if it thinks water is overrated.

Leynos
02-19-2018, 10:06 PM
I dunno about that. Nvidia designed and made Switch but still has a Nintendo touch to it. The sounds of checking your profile and the bounce of scrolling through the menu. Little touches that despite being very simple still has a personality to it. IF MS made the hardware but sold under the SEGA name the UI likely would have been the same. Outside of added features and maybe more power (not OG Xbox in 1999) probably would have been very similar.

Ecco
02-20-2018, 01:09 AM
People think 6 buttons would've been better because its a way to combat the 4 shoulder buttons on PS2.

Also people who say the Dreamcast controller didn't need more buttons, thats like asking a fish if it thinks water is overrated.

I don't understand the fish quote lol. I do think Sega should have kept the 6-button lay-out from previous consoles. (But also, I can't imagine that the DC didn't have enough buttons, maybe I haven't played enough games from that generation lol.)

Yharnamresident
02-20-2018, 07:20 AM
I don't understand the fish quote lol. I do think Sega should have kept the 6-button lay-out from previous consoles. (But also, I can't imagine that the DC didn't have enough buttons, maybe I haven't played enough games from that generation lol.)

Common everyone uses that fish quote haha. It means you don't know what you're missing out on, because you never experienced it. Such as a Dreamcast controller with more buttons. What if in Shenmue, you had like a separate button for viewing your diary or your items? and I don't know if Shenmue uses button combinations for fighting(I haven't gotten that far), but 6 buttons would defenitely help there. Especially with open-world games and fighting games, the more buttons the better.

https://lifehacker.com/5821126/fish-dont-know-theyre-in-water

Tower of Power
02-20-2018, 10:40 AM
I thought the Dreamcast controller was excellent from an ergonomics and precision perspective. The analog stick, analog triggers, and buttons all felt great, much better than the Playstation stuff.

At the time, no one was really complaining about not having a second analog stick. It wasn't until after the Dreamcast was dead that the two analog stick control scheme became standardized, so much like the DVD played, I don't think having a second analog stick on the controller would have been helpful. Plus, it's interesting to see all the different control schemes that were tried at the time.

The biggest thing missing from the controller at the time was probably a "select" button. Everything else seemed OK, but I think I remember not having a select button hampered ports a lot.

Next up, "bumpers" like the Xbox 360 controller would have been useful.

Everyone has standardized on four face buttons, so I don't think Sega was wrong to do that. I have heard complaints a lot from gamers, especially fighting game fans, that there should have been six face buttons. And, for what it's worth, I also at the time wished for six face buttons. But I think "the casuals" prefer four, which is why the industry has standardized on it. There are a couple of six button pads available for Dreamcast if you're so inclined, so there is the option.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-20-2018, 10:50 AM
Like I said the only problem I had with the Dreamcast's controller personally was with beat-'em-ups. I thought it was perfectly fine with all other game genres.

Yharnamresident
02-20-2018, 09:59 PM
I thought the Dreamcast controller was excellent from an ergonomics and precision perspective. The analog stick, analog triggers, and buttons all felt great, much better than the Playstation stuff.

At the time, no one was really complaining about not having a second analog stick. It wasn't until after the Dreamcast was dead that the two analog stick control scheme became standardized, so much like the DVD played, I don't think having a second analog stick on the controller would have been helpful. Plus, it's interesting to see all the different control schemes that were tried at the time.

The biggest thing missing from the controller at the time was probably a "select" button. Everything else seemed OK, but I think I remember not having a select button hampered ports a lot.

Next up, "bumpers" like the Xbox 360 controller would have been useful.

Everyone has standardized on four face buttons, so I don't think Sega was wrong to do that. I have heard complaints a lot from gamers, especially fighting game fans, that there should have been six face buttons. And, for what it's worth, I also at the time wished for six face buttons. But I think "the casuals" prefer four, which is why the industry has standardized on it. There are a couple of six button pads available for Dreamcast if you're so inclined, so there is the option.

Theres tons of instances where a second analog stick would've been useful. I've never played a FPS Dreamcast game, but it'd definitely be useful there. In Shenmue you control Ryo using the D-pad, thats not optimal. In Sonic Adventure, a second analog stick would've been much better than using the triggers to control the camera.


Yes, if the Dreamcast controller had 360 shoulder buttons then I don't think 6 buttons would be necessary. Either one would've worked.

Leynos
02-20-2018, 11:02 PM
Um, hello!? Virtual On desperately needed a second analog stick.

Team Andromeda
02-21-2018, 03:19 AM
Um, hello!? Virtual On desperately needed a second analog stick.

Not really as the Arcade game used digital sticks and the 1st game controlled well with the Saturn pad. To me the DC pad really needed to be like the Saturn 3D controller with 6 face buttons and really SEGA should have also given it a 2nd analog stick too.

j_factor
02-21-2018, 07:08 AM
Virtual On with the Saturn digital pad is perfectly doable. VOOT's control scheme kinda sucks, and is a good example of the Dreamcast controller not having enough buttons.

Hard to say how much the DVD format could have helped the Dreamcast. But, and I know I've said this like 6 times in other threads, I don't think the strategy of undercutting Sony on price was a good one to begin with. Both systems that gen that launched at $200 sold worse than both systems that launched at $300. The Gamecube did okay for a while but then it crashed pretty hard late in the generation. It got its last sales bump when the price dropped to $100 and then it had nowhere to go. The Dreamcast dropped to $150 in late 2000. You look at a console that's $150 in 2000, and it's hard to see that console still being around in 2004.

When you're the one launching earlier than your competition, I think what you should be going for is staying power. Which you don't get by being cheap. Whether they would get more benefit from the DVD format or other upgrades instead, I'm not sure. They also didn't need to launch so early in Japan.

Kamahl
02-21-2018, 02:41 PM
Sega was scared to death of pricing themselves off the market, considering what happened with the Saturn's launch price. Same with making it as easy to develop for as possible (to the point of including Windows CE!). They tried to make a PS1 2.0 while Sony was busy making something crazy.

Ultimately, if you go into the game desperate, from a position of weakness like that, you're not getting far...

OverDrone
02-21-2018, 02:53 PM
The Dreamcast digital crosspad is defo the worst aspect of the controller. At least the dreaded Dualshock would last a lot longer, the DC one felt like it could kick the bucket at any time (as mine eventually did). Given the prevalence of 2D fighters and shooters being ported at the time, it didn't take long for me to seek out a couple of the official sticks.

A disappointing step backwards from SEGA's previous pads.

Tower of Power
02-21-2018, 03:03 PM
Theres tons of instances where a second analog stick would've been useful. I've never played a FPS Dreamcast game, but it'd definitely be useful there. In Shenmue you control Ryo using the D-pad, thats not optimal. In Sonic Adventure, a second analog stick would've been much better than using the triggers to control the camera.


Yes, if the Dreamcast controller had 360 shoulder buttons then I don't think 6 buttons would be necessary. Either one would've worked.

You are totally right, knowing what we know now, a second analog stick would have been very useful. However, we're speaking with the gift of hindsight, getting to look back 17-18 years with everything we know now about how games should control. Back then, movement and camera controls in 3D were not totally solved like they are now. Now, pretty much every game has the same control scheme, with character movement on the left analog stick, and camera movement on the right. There's no guarantee that in Sonic Adventure the second analog stick would have been used to control the camera, like we'd expect now, or if it did, that it would control as expected. Just look at some of the games that were coming out a the time. Even on PS2, in Grand Theft Auto 3, the right analog stick throws your character into a first person view. I think that's why Sega didn't include it in the first place, they just didn't see it as something necessary. At the time, the solution to Virtual On's controls was to import a set of twin sticks, people weren't really thinking about dual analog control schemes. It was a period of experimentation, you still had games coming out like Ape Escape and Stretch Panic that were using the second analog stick for totally different things.

It would be interesting to go through a do a history of the evolution of control schemes in 3D games. Maybe someone out there with a YouTube channel should steal this idea.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-21-2018, 03:48 PM
Sega was scared to death of pricing themselves off the market, considering what happened with the Saturn's launch price. Same with making it as easy to develop for as possible (to the point of including Windows CE!). They tried to make a PS1 2.0 while Sony was busy making something crazy.

Ultimately, if you go into the game desperate, from a position of weakness like that, you're not getting far...

Absolutely right. Sega were pretty desperate after the Saturn and in the form of the Dreamcast had no choice but to put all their eggs into one basket. The trouble is by this point, however good the console was, the damage was already done. Sega are sort of the perfect example that being first to the market with a product does not guarantee you success. It could be pointed out that being first to the 16-bit market with the Mega Drive worked for them, but then it still took the console two or three years to really get into it's stride and it was not, by any means, an overnight success. Sega ultimately spent too much time worrying about what their rivals were doing, first about Nintendo's SNES and later about Sony's Playstation, and as a consequence took their eye off the ball. Not that they could have competed with the likes of Sony financially in the long run of course, but they certainly could have survived and competed for longer in the hardware market than they did had they not made such a fucking mess of things from 1995 onwards.

Bones Justice
02-22-2018, 02:17 AM
Virtual On with the Saturn digital pad is perfectly doable. VOOT's control scheme kinda sucks, and is a good example of the Dreamcast controller not having enough buttons.

I never played Virtual On in the arcades. I learned to play it on the Saturn gamepad and love it. I was very disappointed that the Dreamcast controller does not allow the same controls. I never got into VOOT as much as VO, probably because of that.

There was going to be a DVD add-on for Dreamcast at some point, wasn't there? I thought I remembered seeing a preview of it or something.

bultje112
02-22-2018, 04:44 AM
I never played Virtual On in the arcades. I learned to play it on the Saturn gamepad and love it. I was very disappointed that the Dreamcast controller does not allow the same controls. I never got into VOOT as much as VO, probably because of that.

There was going to be a DVD add-on for Dreamcast at some point, wasn't there? I thought I remembered seeing a preview of it or something.

why not try it with the dreamcast hori 6 button fighting pad? is very similar to saturn pad. or did you use the 3d controller?

Leynos
02-22-2018, 04:44 AM
It plays better on 360. Not sure how this new PS4 game plays but I hope to find out soon.

Kanon
02-22-2018, 08:26 AM
Nothing could have saved the Dreamcast from being second to the PS2, and I'm sure Sega never had hopes to be #1 against it. Just the idea of a Playstation 2 was enough to blow people's minds...

BUT, the DVD player I think would have meant a bigger install base (a little more expensive, but appealing to people looking for a DVD player too), and would have helped against piracy (software sales were the biggest income and while the copy protection worked, it was the best time for the system)

The inminent coming of the Xbox was the other main issue. The DVD Rom could have helped there, but just a little.

The Dreamcast was destined to be #2 if a success, the real fight was against Nintendo at first. Piracy stroke a big blow, and not being able to compete against MS would have meant #3 at best. The DVD-ROM could have helped with those issues, but it's a stretch to think it would have changed history.

Yharnamresident
02-22-2018, 08:46 AM
To me the DC pad really needed to be like the Saturn 3D controller with 6 face buttons and really SEGA should have also given it a 2nd analog stick too.Thats all that was necessary



Hard to say how much the DVD format could have helped the Dreamcast. But, and I know I've said this like 6 times in other threads, I don't think the strategy of undercutting Sony on price was a good one to begin with. Both systems that gen that launched at $200 sold worse than both systems that launched at $300. The Gamecube did okay for a while but then it crashed pretty hard late in the generation. It got its last sales bump when the price dropped to $100 and then it had nowhere to go. The Dreamcast dropped to $150 in late 2000. You look at a console that's $150 in 2000, and it's hard to see that console still being around in 2004.

Yea in 2004 the GameCube didn't get Burnout 3, which was a major blow. I don't know the exact reason, but I have to assume it was disc space. The PS2 ISO is 1.6 GBs compressed, probably 3-5 GBs uncompressed. I know a couple other 3rd parties starting jumping ship from the GameCube around the same time.


Even on PS2, in Grand Theft Auto 3, the right analog stick throws your character into a first person view. But thats still better than Shenmue's control scheme. Controlling Ryo with a D-pad is, dare I say it, "meh".


Sega was scared to death of pricing themselves off the market, considering what happened with the Saturn's launch price. Same with making it as easy to develop for as possible (to the point of including Windows CE!). They tried to make a PS1 2.0 while Sony was busy making something crazy.

Ultimately, if you go into the game desperate, from a position of weakness like that, you're not getting far...The PS2 and PS3 definitely proved that developers aren't scared of tough programming, they're scared of low sales.



The inminent coming of the Xbox was the other main issue. The DVD Rom could have helped there, but just a little.
Well I think Nintendo was also scared of the Xbox too. Microsoft had the deepest pockets that the game industry had ever seen.

And after the 6th generation, Nintendo ultimately pulled out of making traditional game consoles.

Tower of Power
02-22-2018, 09:23 AM
But thats still better than Shenmue's control scheme. Controlling Ryo with a D-pad is, dare I say it, "meh".


On the one hand, I like Shenmue's control scheme for being so weird and different. On the other hand, I definitely think they could have done a better job, even at the time with the Dreamcast controller. It controls more like a weird driving game than a 3rd person action game. Of course, once you get used to it, it's fine, and the game is brilliant, but with Shenmue's development team being so unconventional, again, I don't think they would necessarily have made a control scheme any more conventional, even with two analog sticks. There was just no standard at the time.

Team Andromeda
02-22-2018, 10:32 AM
I never played Virtual On in the arcades. I learned to play it on the Saturn gamepad and love it. I was very disappointed that the Dreamcast controller does not allow the same controls. I never got into VOOT as much as VO, probably because of that.


Agreed, it should have just used the Saturn controls, that said this is the only way to play the game. So glad I got my sticks back inthe day and held on to them

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4662/40418144741_3d23b2106a_o.jpg

Bones Justice
02-22-2018, 04:32 PM
why not try it with the dreamcast hori 6 button fighting pad? is very similar to saturn pad. or did you use the 3d controller?

No way, not enough buttons, unfortunately. I do have a MadCatz six-button pad which is good for fighters except not here. The Saturn pad has eight buttons, of course.


Agreed, it should have just used the Saturn controls, that said this is the only way to play the game. So glad I got my sticks back inthe day and held on to them

Well, the twin sticks look cool but since I never played that way, either, Iím not sure if I would like it or not. The Saturn pad controls are a combination of button presses that you can do all with your thumbs except for the shoulder buttons. Itís perfect for me.

j_factor
02-23-2018, 04:19 AM
You are totally right, knowing what we know now, a second analog stick would have been very useful. However, we're speaking with the gift of hindsight, getting to look back 17-18 years with everything we know now about how games should control. Back then, movement and camera controls in 3D were not totally solved like they are now.

That's true, but in creating the design, they should have been looking forward. They took the Saturn 3D pad and gave it a worse d-pad and removed 2 buttons. Any way you slice it, that looks like a straight downgrade. Shouldn't the new one be an improvement? Plus, the Playstation already had the Dual Shock well before the Dreamcast came out. Two analog sticks versus one, 8 buttons versus 4 and 2 triggers, and built-in rumble versus having to buy a separate rumble pack. The triggers are nice, but overall the comparison doesn't look good for the DC. Isn't the Dreamcast supposed to be next-gen? It should have everything the PS1 has and then some.

They should have just slapped a second stick on the Saturn 3D pad and added rumble. Or, they should have ripped off the Dual Shock layout but replacing L2 and R2 with analog triggers. I don't think it's hindsight to say that; I think either of those are pretty obvious design choices in 1998. And failing that happening, Bernie Stolar should have had the controller redesigned ahead of its US launch.


I never played Virtual On in the arcades. I learned to play it on the Saturn gamepad and love it. I was very disappointed that the Dreamcast controller does not allow the same controls. I never got into VOOT as much as VO, probably because of that.

I played the arcade original but adjusted to the Saturn pad pretty easily. I never saw the second one in arcades but on the Dreamcast I had a much harder time with the controller. I now have a twin stick for both systems, but it's much more needed on the Dreamcast. Unfortunately despite that the DC stick is the rarer of the two.


There was going to be a DVD add-on for Dreamcast at some point, wasn't there? I thought I remembered seeing a preview of it or something.

They had made some statements about an add-on, but at E3 2000 they displayed what looked like a combination unit, not an add-on. It was just a mockup and not a working prototype. It's unclear if Sega's hardware side ever got serious about doing anything with DVD. In contrast they had fully functioning prototypes of the Zip drive add-on.

https://i.imgur.com/lGFOGzg.jpg

"The Dreamcast DVD player offers expansive storage space for software, and allows you to view DVD movies." Despite this they otherwise never said anything about software on DVD, it was supposed to just play DVD video.

Blades
02-23-2018, 04:55 AM
That behemoth was supposed to connect to the modem port?!

Team Andromeda
02-23-2018, 05:35 AM
That behemoth was supposed to connect to the modem port?!

Like whats been said it looks to be an All in one model more so given the vents are on the top. Also the serial port would have been used for any add-on to the base DC. DVD was a waste of time anyway . SEGA really should have brought out the Zip Drive (lack of space was an issue for online stuff) and also I was gutted when SEGA dropped the planned SEGA Dreamcast Swatch watch and the VMU MP3 player

j_factor
02-23-2018, 07:08 AM
Yea in 2004 the GameCube didn't get Burnout 3, which was a major blow. I don't know the exact reason, but I have to assume it was disc space. The PS2 ISO is 1.6 GBs compressed, probably 3-5 GBs uncompressed. I know a couple other 3rd parties starting jumping ship from the GameCube around the same time.

Someone who had worked for Criterion made a few posts here and he claimed (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?26634-PS2-vs-Dreamcast-Graphics&p=645473&viewfull=1#post645473) that the Gamecube didn't get Burnout 3 because it couldn't handle it technically. I don't really find his post convincing tbh. He does not say (and I've never seen anyone claim) that a Gamecube version was actually in development and canceled.

Regardless, it coincided with a lot of companies dropping/reducing Gamecube support. I'm not sure it was the discs. Gamecube games just weren't selling as well. Except for kid-friendly movie/cartoon licenses, Sonic, and maybe a few other 3D platformers, the Gamecube was consistent in having the worst selling versions of multiplatform games.


That behemoth was supposed to connect to the modem port?!

I think it was a standalone unit and that was just saying that the machine possessed the modem port. But who knows.


Like whats been said it looks to be an All in one model more so given the vents are on the top. Also the serial port would have been used for any add-on to the base DC. DVD was a waste of time anyway . SEGA really should have brought out the Zip Drive (lack of space was an issue for online stuff) and also I was gutted when SEGA dropped the planned SEGA Dreamcast Swatch watch and the VMU MP3 player

The Zip drive was too expensive. It was going to cost as much as the console itself. I don't know why they didn't just make a hard drive.

Team Andromeda
02-23-2018, 07:19 AM
The Zip drive was too expensive. It was going to cost as much as the console itself. I don't know why they didn't just make a hard drive.

Hard Drive's weren't cheap either. I would have rathered a Zip Drive myself and in 1998 the price was quite decent compared to a Hard Drive (for similar ammounts of space)

Blades
02-23-2018, 10:24 AM
I think it was a standalone unit and that was just saying that the machine possessed the modem port. But who knows

I think you're right.


Hard Drive's weren't cheap either. I would have rathered a Zip Drive myself and in 1998 the price was quite decent compared to a Hard Drive (for similar ammounts of space)

Zip drives were cheap, but mechanically awful which made them useless for anything but very short data transfer over sneakernet. The technology was flawed from the beginning.

Tower of Power
02-23-2018, 11:25 AM
I think it was a standalone unit and that was just saying that the machine possessed the modem port. But who knows.


Reminds me of this thing: http://www.gameops.net/2001/02/sega-and-pace-unveil-dreamcast-enabled.html?m=1


That's true, but in creating the design, they should have been looking forward. They took the Saturn 3D pad and gave it a worse d-pad and removed 2 buttons. Any way you slice it, that looks like a straight downgrade. Shouldn't the new one be an improvement? Plus, the Playstation already had the Dual Shock well before the Dreamcast came out. Two analog sticks versus one, 8 buttons versus 4 and 2 triggers, and built-in rumble versus having to buy a separate rumble pack. The triggers are nice, but overall the comparison doesn't look good for the DC. Isn't the Dreamcast supposed to be next-gen? It should have everything the PS1 has and then some.

They should have just slapped a second stick on the Saturn 3D pad and added rumble. Or, they should have ripped off the Dual Shock layout but replacing L2 and R2 with analog triggers. I don't think it's hindsight to say that; I think either of those are pretty obvious design choices in 1998. And failing that happening, Bernie Stolar should have had the controller redesigned ahead of its US launch.


With the gift of hindsight, yes, I don't disagree with you, but at the time, it didn't seem like that big of a deal to not have two analog sticks (the second analog stick may have even been considered a gimmick by some at the time), having less buttons than the Saturn 3D pad was seen as the bigger blunder. That's my impressions at the time, I was more heavily involved in the forum scene, etc and that's how I remember the vibe being.

It's all obvious to us now, but obviously, it wasn't obvious to Sega. They probably weren't looking too closely at the competition, and were just looking to iterate on their Saturn 3D pad.

The bigger sin in my eyes is neither the PSP or 3DS initially including a second analog stick, dual analog controls were well established at that point, no real excuse.

Leynos
02-23-2018, 01:56 PM
There was also a Dreamcast Discman and MP3 player. The MP3 player looked like a larger VMU but was never released. We all know about the DC built in the odd-looking TV (I wish I had it)

I have a couple Dreameyes and boy that thing was ahead of its time. Digital camera and camcorder (tho very limited) plus a video sharing service. SEGA wanted the DC to expand in all ways. I also find it sad Eyetoy often gets the credit DreamEye deserves. Hell Nintendo had basically the Eyetoy on display at E3 2002 for GBA and could put your face in a game. Of course, it never released. I have taken my VMU in public in recent years and even the DreamEye to take pictures. Shame I have no real way to show them.

Blades
02-23-2018, 02:41 PM
There's no way there was a DC Discman. That doesn't make any sense.

Team Andromeda
02-23-2018, 03:08 PM
Zip drives were cheap, but mechanically awful which made them useless for anything but very short data transfer over sneakernet. The technology was flawed from the beginning.

That's looking back with hindsight. At the time Hard Drive were very expensive too and I would have liked to seen a Zip Drive for the DC to store web data and DLC from games

IrishNinja
02-23-2018, 06:09 PM
I was gutted when SEGA dropped the planned SEGA Dreamcast Swatch watch and the VMU MP3 player

mp3 player could've been something (sega was always ahead of their time), what was the swatch watch said to do/how would that work?

j_factor
02-23-2018, 08:07 PM
Zip drives were cheap, but mechanically awful which made them useless for anything but very short data transfer over sneakernet. The technology was flawed from the beginning.

Yeah. Plus, Zip drives were already on their way out by that time. The DC Zip drive came across as outdated technology rather than anything impressive. The disks were only 100MB and being removable media was of no apparent benefit in this case.

I don't think hard drives were that expensive. The original Xbox had, what, an 8GB hard drive built in? In 2001. I'm sure Sega could have released a 1GB hard drive as an add-on for a reasonable price a year or two earlier.


Reminds me of this thing: http://www.gameops.net/2001/02/sega-and-pace-unveil-dreamcast-enabled.html?m=1

Yeah, I thought of that too. What a weird device. It sounds like it would be better suited to hotels or something.


With the gift of hindsight, yes, I don't disagree with you, but at the time, it didn't seem like that big of a deal to not have two analog sticks (the second analog stick may have even been considered a gimmick by some at the time), having less buttons than the Saturn 3D pad was seen as the bigger blunder. That's my impressions at the time, I was more heavily involved in the forum scene, etc and that's how I remember the vibe being.

You're right there. People definitely complained more about the lack of buttons.


The bigger sin in my eyes is neither the PSP or 3DS initially including a second analog stick, dual analog controls were well established at that point, no real excuse.

I can kinda excuse the PSP. Handhelds very often had reduced control layouts compared to consoles. I always wished for the GBA to have more than two face buttons. And the DS didn't have an analog stick at all.

Leynos
02-23-2018, 08:17 PM
There's no way there was a DC Discman. That doesn't make any sense.

I forgot to mention the Dreamcast Casio camera as well.

https://i.imgur.com/AKTH9mT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zCQQiZU.jpg

Yharnamresident
02-23-2018, 10:56 PM
When I hear "zip drive", I think of super low transfer speeds like the Famicom Disc System. Like 50KBs/S.

gamevet
02-24-2018, 01:11 AM
Reminds me of this thing: http://www.gameops.net/2001/02/sega-and-pace-unveil-dreamcast-enabled.html?m=1



With the gift of hindsight, yes, I don't disagree with you, but at the time, it didn't seem like that big of a deal to not have two analog sticks (the second analog stick may have even been considered a gimmick by some at the time), having less buttons than the Saturn 3D pad was seen as the bigger blunder. That's my impressions at the time, I was more heavily involved in the forum scene, etc and that's how I remember the vibe being.

It's all obvious to us now, but obviously, it wasn't obvious to Sega. They probably weren't looking too closely at the competition, and were just looking to iterate on their Saturn 3D pad.

The bigger sin in my eyes is neither the PSP or 3DS initially including a second analog stick, dual analog controls were well established at that point, no real excuse.

Considering that Sega's Own Virtua-On needed a custom 2 stick controller to be able to play the Saturn game, just like the arcade, it doesn't seem too far fetched to say that they should of had a second analog stick. Also, the original PlayStation had 2 analog sticks with the Dual Shock.



Someone who had worked for Criterion made a few posts here and he claimed (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?26634-PS2-vs-Dreamcast-Graphics&p=645473&viewfull=1#post645473) that the Gamecube didn't get Burnout 3 because it couldn't handle it technically. I don't really find his post convincing tbh. He does not say (and I've never seen anyone claim) that a Gamecube version was actually in development and canceled.

Regardless, it coincided with a lot of companies dropping/reducing Gamecube support. I'm not sure it was the discs. Gamecube games just weren't selling as well. Except for kid-friendly movie/cartoon licenses, Sonic, and maybe a few other 3D platformers, the Gamecube was consistent in having the worst selling versions of multiplatform games.



Burnout 3 was meant to be played online, and the GameCube just didn't have any real online gaming network to speak of. Disc size most certainly wasn't the problem, when games like Resident Evil 7 used 2 discs and the Xbox 360 had to use multiple DVDs to the PS3's one BR disc.

I'm certainly not convinced that Rusty did much work with the GameCube hardware. I feel that it was a powerful piece of hardware, when it was in the right developers hands. Nothing on the PS2 touched the best of GameCube in visuals.

Team Andromeda
02-24-2018, 03:34 AM
I don't think hard drives were that expensive. The original Xbox had, what, an 8GB hard drive built in? In 2001. .

Yeah and the XBox division lost a fortune with moves like that.

bultje112
02-24-2018, 05:08 AM
No way, not enough buttons, unfortunately. I do have a MadCatz six-button pad which is good for fighters except not here. The Saturn pad has eight buttons, of course.



Well, the twin sticks look cool but since I never played that way, either, Iím not sure if I would like it or not. The Saturn pad controls are a combination of button presses that you can do all with your thumbs except for the shoulder buttons. Itís perfect for me.

The hori dreamcast controller has the same amount of buttons as the saturn controller.

Blades
02-24-2018, 06:54 AM
So does the Interact controller but it's awful.

https://www.konsolenkost.de/sega-dreamcast/image/5833896/dreamcast-controller-pad-quantum-fighter-pad-weiss.jpg

Tower of Power
02-24-2018, 11:22 AM
Considering that Sega's Own Virtua-On needed a custom 2 stick controller to be able to play the Saturn game, just like the arcade, it doesn't seem too far fetched to say that they should of had a second analog stick. Also, the original PlayStation had 2 analog sticks with the Dual Shock.


Yes, but it seemed like with Virtual On, they were happier to just release a set of twin sticks.

The dual shock had two analog sticks yes, but at the time (remember, Dreamcast came out in 98), there were three mainstream analog controllers for consoles: the N64, Saturn, and Playstation. Only Playstation had two sticks, and in 98, they definitely weren't seen as a necessity like they are today. A nice to have, could have come in useful, yes, but only 1/3 of the major analog controllers at the time had two sticks.

Bones Justice
02-24-2018, 12:06 PM
The hori dreamcast controller has the same amount of buttons as the saturn controller.


So does the Interact controller but it's awful.

https://www.konsolenkost.de/sega-dreamcast/image/5833896/dreamcast-controller-pad-quantum-fighter-pad-weiss.jpg

I tried to look up the Hori Dreamcast controller but found nothing. Even Sega Retro doesn't list any Dreamcast ones by Hori. Picture?

Even so, if it's like the Madcatz and Quantum, they really only have six buttons. The Saturn has eight. The Dreamcast six button pads all just copy the triggers L & R to buttons C & Z. On the unlikely chance that the Hori controller does have unique C & Z buttons, wouldn't the game still have to be programmed to recognize the additional buttons? I find it unlikely that Sega programmed VOOT to work with a controller that almost no one owned.

And yeah, I've tried the Quantum and it is awful. The Madcatz is actually good but there is no way to get to eight buttons like the Saturn gamepad.



Considering that Sega's Own Virtua-On needed a custom 2 stick controller to be able to play the Saturn game, just like the arcade, it doesn't seem too far fetched to say that they should of had a second analog stick. Also, the original PlayStation had 2 analog sticks with the Dual Shock.



https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4662/40418144741_3d23b2106a_o.jpg

I've never seen one in person but isn't the twin stick digital, not analog? I don't know that analog sticks are the right kind of controls for Virtual On. And look at that thing, you would also need triggers and buttons on top of the sticks.

It's weird that Sega made the Dreamcast buttons in a diamond layout anyways considering it doesn't even match Virtua Fighter.

Leynos
02-24-2018, 01:00 PM
Yeah and the XBox division lost a fortune with moves like that.

Back when I was a manager at Gamestop in 2007 or so an MS rep told me they lost 9 billion on Xbox but Gates didn't care. Sony also lost a lot of money on PS2. yeah despite selling so well it didn't make a lot of profit. Gamecube made more profit. No wonder SEGA could not maintain DC. The power war just wasn't that beneficial.

Prince Talmit
02-24-2018, 01:04 PM
The hori dreamcast controller has the same amount of buttons as the saturn controller.
Do you have a pic?
I wasn't aware Hori made any peripherals for Dreamcast.

gamevet
02-24-2018, 01:55 PM
Back when I was a manager at Gamestop in 2007 or so an MS rep told me they lost 9 billion on Xbox but Gates didn't care. Sony also lost a lot of money on PS2. yeah despite selling so well it didn't make a lot of profit. Gamecube made more profit. No wonder SEGA could not maintain DC. The power war just wasn't that beneficial.

Sony did not lose money on PS2. They made a killing. PS3, on the other hand, lost billions before becoming profitable in 2009.

Black_Tiger
02-24-2018, 02:59 PM
Adding a dvd player to the Dreamcast is the wrong way to hypothesize an alternate timeline without the PS2's non-gaming advantage. Many more things about the Dreamcast would be diffrent in that scenario.

The way to look at it is "what if the PS2 didn't play dvd movies or had smaller propreitary media like the Dreamcast?"

j_factor
02-24-2018, 03:54 PM
I'm certainly not convinced that Rusty did much work with the GameCube hardware. I feel that it was a powerful piece of hardware, when it was in the right developers hands. Nothing on the PS2 touched the best of GameCube in visuals.

I agree. He didn't post his full resumť or anything but he never actually said (IIRC) that there was a Gamecube game he worked on. He mentioned multiple PS2 projects. He went into great technical detail about PS2 development but had no such words about the nuts and bolts of Gamecube development.


Yeah and the XBox division lost a fortune with moves like that.

I don't think the hard drive was a huge part of that. The main reason the Xbox was so expensive to produce was the CPU, GPU, and RAM. Not only were they more powerful than the competition and most PCs at the time, they were practically off-the-shelf PC parts themselves. The exact model of the GPU was unique to the Xbox, but it was very similar to (and actually a little more powerful than) Nvidia's highest-end consumer PC video card at the time. The cost of the GPU later led to a big conflict between MS and Nvidia, which is what prompted the Xbox 360's early launch and the very swift discontinuation of the original Xbox hardware.

Leynos
02-24-2018, 04:32 PM
Sony did not lose money on PS2. They made a killing. PS3, on the other hand, lost billions before becoming profitable in 2009.


I went to look for the graph and my bad, they only lost money when it launched, they made a profit until 2006 where they didn't turn a profit again until 2010 but this was obviously due to PS3.The scary thing is and not sure how serious this was but the fact they even considered it is telling, Sony considered selling their consoles business and studios in 2008. Again, I'm not sure how serious they were with this but we all know Sony wasn't in a good place those first 2-3 years with PS3. They were negative $93,491,480 in 2000. It's just funny tho that Nintendo from N64 and Gamecube never lost profit despite both systems being pretty powerful for their time and N64 had those cartridges. I think Wii U was the only time Nintendo went in the red but not by much. They made some profit but also some years in the black. I really wish SEGA of Japan listened to Tom esp about partnering up with Sony and also wish SEGA was better about handling money. I'd rather see SEGA making consoles today over MS. That said I have no desire to see current day SEGA money or not to even make an attempt.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-24-2018, 05:12 PM
I went to look for the graph and my bad, they only lost money when it launched, they made a profit until 2006 where they didn't turn a profit again until 2010 but this was obviously due to PS3.The scary thing is and not sure how serious this was but the fact they even considered it is telling, Sony considered selling their consoles business and studios in 2008. Again, I'm not sure how serious they were with this but we all know Sony wasn't in a good place those first 2-3 years with PS3. They were negative $93,491,480 in 2000. It's just funny tho that Nintendo from N64 and Gamecube never lost profit despite both systems being pretty powerful for their time and N64 had those cartridges. I think Wii U was the only time Nintendo went in the red but not by much. They made some profit but also some years in the black. I really wish SEGA of Japan listened to Tom esp about partnering up with Sony and also wish SEGA was better about handling money. I'd rather see SEGA making consoles today over MS. That said I have no desire to see current day SEGA money or not to even make an attempt.

Tell me about it. Sega in the mid 90's actually made my sister seem good with money. They lurched from one bad decision to the next and bled money from every orifice until they did the only thing they could to stem the flow, cut their losses and got the fuck out of the hardware market. Tragic for us Sega loyalists but in hindsight it was the right decision as Sega these days is a successful and highly profitable company.

gamevet
02-24-2018, 07:08 PM
Yes, but it seemed like with Virtual On, they were happier to just release a set of twin sticks.

The dual shock had two analog sticks yes, but at the time (remember, Dreamcast came out in 98), there were three mainstream analog controllers for consoles: the N64, Saturn, and Playstation. Only Playstation had two sticks, and in 98, they definitely weren't seen as a necessity like they are today. A nice to have, could have come in useful, yes, but only 1/3 of the major analog controllers at the time had two sticks.

The dual sticks made more sense, because there were already games on the previous systems that were designed around dual controllers. Do you remember playing stuff like Robotron and SmashTV on the PlayStation and SNES? I believe one of the earliest titles on the PlayStation (*Overkill?) used a dual controller setup like those games and because the Dual Shock didn't exist at the time, the game used the four face buttons to shoot in different directions. Still, it felt weird going from a Dual Shock to the single analog stick on the DC.


*I'll have to look this one up. I remember I didn't like the game that got so much hype.

It was Loaded.


youhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls-8VvEPQAk

Yharnamresident
02-24-2018, 10:39 PM
Burnout 3 was meant to be played online, and the GameCube just didn't have any real online gaming network to speak of. Disc size most certainly wasn't the problem, when games like Resident Evil 7 used 2 discs and the Xbox 360 had to use multiple DVDs to the PS3's one BR disc.But I've never played a racing game on 2 discs. The concept of that seems pretty strange.


Nothing on the PS2 touched the best of GameCube in visuals.We kept bringing that up, but rusty didn't wanna believe it.



The dual shock had two analog sticks yes, but at the time (remember, Dreamcast came out in 98), there were three mainstream analog controllers for consoles: the N64, Saturn, and Playstation. Only Playstation had two sticks, and in 98, they definitely weren't seen as a necessity like they are today. A nice to have, could have come in useful, yes, but only 1/3 of the major analog controllers at the time had two sticks.But the N64 has C-buttons, which is somewhat of a solution for camera controls. The Dreamcast has none.


Sony did not lose money on PS2. They made a killing. PS3, on the other hand, lost billions before becoming profitable in 2009.Which is the first year there was a PS3 in my household.



I don't think the hard drive was a huge part of that. The main reason the Xbox was so expensive to produce was the CPU, GPU, and RAM. Not only were they more powerful than the competition and most PCs at the time, they were practically off-the-shelf PC parts themselves. The exact model of the GPU was unique to the Xbox, but it was very similar to (and actually a little more powerful than) Nvidia's highest-end consumer PC video card at the time. The cost of the GPU later led to a big conflict between MS and Nvidia, which is what prompted the Xbox 360's early launch and the very swift discontinuation of the original Xbox hardware.They quit manufacturing the OG Xbox in August 2005. The Saturn may be the worst console ditch that ever happened, but the runner-up is the OG Xbox.

gamevet
02-25-2018, 01:41 AM
But I've never played a racing game on 2 discs. The concept of that seems pretty strange.

Strange, yes, but not a deal breaker. Considering that the game was just 100MB beyond the disc space of the GameCube disc, the online play portions of the game probably would have used that extra space. The GameCube version probably wouldn't have needed that, considering that the GC only had a few games that did online.


We kept bringing that up, but rusty didn't wanna believe it.



He made excuses like the lighting in Rogue Squadron 2 was pre-mapped, versus real-time lighting, even though the GC was very capable of doing real-time lighting, with several light sources. The GC was doing things that were beyond amazing, even compared to the Xbox.

Team Andromeda
02-25-2018, 03:30 AM
Sony did not lose money on PS2. They made a killing. PS3, on the other hand, lost billions before becoming profitable in 2009.

At the start, they were selling the PS2 for a lost, given the high cost of DVD and also not helped by the fact that SONY and Phillips planned DVD format was dropped and rejected and the world went with Toshiba format instead.
But it didn't matter after the 1st year of the PS2 SONY were selling millions of units and making a killing off software and also their film divisions were doing well on the DVD too

Team Andromeda
02-25-2018, 03:31 AM
I've never seen one in person but isn't the twin stick digital, not analog?

Yep and in the Arcades too

Team Andromeda
02-25-2018, 03:35 AM
But the N64 has C-buttons, which is somewhat of a solution for camera controls. The Dreamcast has none.


Exactly and spot on. For movement you didn't really need analog in FPS only for aiming, the DC lacked enough buttons to be able to do that, like you could on the N64 or the Saturn with the 3D pad. The DC pad was crap and a cock up by SEGA Japan, lets face it.

j_factor
02-25-2018, 04:12 AM
They quit manufacturing the OG Xbox in August 2005. The Saturn may be the worst console ditch that ever happened, but the runner-up is the OG Xbox.

Yeah and it sucked. The Xbox had plenty of juice left in it. It was only 4 years old, it was the most powerful console, Xbox Live finally became popular in late 2004, and it was really doing well in terms of releases up to mid 2005. Then a bunch of shit got canceled, unnecessarily moved to the 360, or some PS2/Xbox games became PS2 exclusives. Some stuff that did come out for the Xbox anyway, like Stubbs, suffered from a complete lack of attention. I was an Xbox fan at the time and the whole situation really left a bad taste in my mouth. They cut it off at the knees.

Yharnamresident
02-25-2018, 05:44 AM
Strange, yes, but not a deal breaker. Considering that the game was just 100MB beyond the disc space of the GameCube disc, the online play portions of the game probably would have used that extra space. The GameCube version probably wouldn't have needed that, considering that the GC only had a few games that did online.
But where are you getting the file size from? ISO sites? heres the thing:

the ISO sites compress the ISOs so they're easier to download. Like if you look at the "PS2 vs Dreamcast" thread, you'll see I downloaded GTA III. The ISO size for that game is not actually 1 GB like we thought it was, its 4.3 GBs. Its the same situation for every ISO I downloaded. Even Dreamcast ones.

I can imagine the horrible music in Burnout 3 takes up hundreds of MBs.


Yeah and it sucked. The Xbox had plenty of juice left in it. It was only 4 years old, it was the most powerful console, Xbox Live finally became popular in late 2004, and it was really doing well in terms of releases up to mid 2005. Then a bunch of shit got canceled, unnecessarily moved to the 360, or some PS2/Xbox games became PS2 exclusives. Some stuff that did come out for the Xbox anyway, like Stubbs, suffered from a complete lack of attention. I was an Xbox fan at the time and the whole situation really left a bad taste in my mouth. They cut it off at the knees.Hold on, a light bulb went off in my head.

What if the 360 was the OG Xbox Slim? like you take the OG Xbox internals(maybe with a bigger HDD), and stuff them inside the 360 shell, and use the 360 controller. That would've been amazing, I think the 360 console design and controller is miles better than the OG Xbox.

Although I think I mentioned something like this before, and someone said theres a good reason why Microsoft didn't make a Xbox Slim.

zyrobs
02-25-2018, 06:24 AM
OG Xbox may have been a tremendous loss and it may have been killed too early, but all of those decisions were things that benefited the brand in the long run. They went from newcomer / distant third to market leaders once the 360 hit the market. And if they bothered making games instead of the Kinect shit, they could've won that console generation.

Kamahl
02-25-2018, 07:03 AM
I never liked the normal 360 design, that cream colour was hideous. The Elite version looked pretty sweet though.

Leynos
02-25-2018, 07:26 AM
I like the 2010 360 slim version...well more like the 2012 matte black version. I like the design and matte black. The E model sucks.

gamevet
02-25-2018, 01:30 PM
But where are you getting the file size from? ISO sites? heres the thing:

the ISO sites compress the ISOs so they're easier to download. Like if you look at the "PS2 vs Dreamcast" thread, you'll see I downloaded GTA III. The ISO size for that game is not actually 1 GB like we thought it was, its 4.3 GBs. Its the same situation for every ISO I downloaded. Even Dreamcast ones.

I can imagine the horrible music in Burnout 3 takes up hundreds of MBs.


Somebody else in this thread said it was that size. I assumed it was compressed on the disc.

Looking at Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic for PC; it was on 4 CD-ROM discs. That would be around 2.8 GB, but the game required 4GB of HDD space.

Leynos
02-25-2018, 02:45 PM
Dreamcast GD-Rom disc is 1.2GB.
Gamecube Mini DVD Disc is 1.5GB
Then we have PSP UMD that is 1.8GB.


Even tho Nintendo shot themselves in the foot with those discs I like them as a collector. Just kinda cool to hold them.

j_factor
02-25-2018, 10:17 PM
But where are you getting the file size from? ISO sites? heres the thing:

the ISO sites compress the ISOs so they're easier to download. Like if you look at the "PS2 vs Dreamcast" thread, you'll see I downloaded GTA III. The ISO size for that game is not actually 1 GB like we thought it was, its 4.3 GBs. Its the same situation for every ISO I downloaded. Even Dreamcast ones.

Someone in a very old thread said they had GTA3 installed to the hard drive on their modded Xbox, and its file size was just under 1GB. I was wrong to say both PS2 and Xbox. Not sure why the PS2 version would be so much bigger. One possibility is that they duplicated a bunch of data on different parts of the disc to improve loading. I don't know that GTA 3 did that, or if so how much space that would account for, nor if there's a way to find that out. Another possibility is that the music took up a shitload of space on the PS2 disc and was better compressed on the Xbox. But I kinda doubt that.


Hold on, a light bulb went off in my head.

What if the 360 was the OG Xbox Slim? like you take the OG Xbox internals(maybe with a bigger HDD), and stuff them inside the 360 shell, and use the 360 controller. That would've been amazing, I think the 360 console design and controller is miles better than the OG Xbox.

Although I think I mentioned something like this before, and someone said theres a good reason why Microsoft didn't make a Xbox Slim.

The reason is the GPU and their dispute with Nvidia. Trying to re-create the GPU with another company isn't a realistic option I don't think.


Somebody else in this thread said it was that size. I assumed it was compressed on the disc.

Looking at Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic for PC; it was on 4 CD-ROM discs. That would be around 2.8 GB, but the game required 4GB of HDD space.

The original retail PC release of GTA 3 was on two CD-ROMs but it was a little different. The first disc had the full installation and the second disc had to be in the drive. Google tells me that the original system requirements said 500MB of hard drive space. I don't know how much data is on the "play" disc, or how much 500MB on a hard drive translates to in data that has to be loaded off the disc, but I'd wager that the two combined isn't huge, and probably in the ballpark of 1GB.

Yharnamresident
02-26-2018, 02:56 AM
I never liked the normal 360 design, that cream colour was hideous. The Elite version looked pretty sweet though.But compared to this:

http://ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/54/2017/10/Original-Xbox-920x561.jpg

I think this console is 30x more appealing:

https://images.techhive.com/images/article/2013/10/360_old-100058575-large.jpg

I haven't owned a OG Xbox for more than a month, but my buddy has one that we always play San Andreas. The thing is ugly and massive, and the neon green theme is hideous. I think Microsoft took a complete 180 with the 360.


Dreamcast GD-Rom disc is 1.2GB.
Gamecube Mini DVD Disc is 1.5GB
Then we have PSP UMD that is 1.8GB.

Even tho Nintendo shot themselves in the foot with those discs I like them as a collector. Just kinda cool to hold them.The GameCube miniDVDs are 1.4 GBs, I don't know who started this habit of rounding them up(I've seen it done constantly), but its not genuine.




The reason is the GPU and their dispute with Nvidia. Trying to re-create the GPU with another company isn't a realistic option I don't think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ

Team Andromeda
02-26-2018, 03:07 AM
But compared to this:

But the OG XBox was built like tank and to last (unlike the launch 360) and tbh the Crystal OG XBox looks really nice.

Yharnamresident
02-26-2018, 03:10 AM
I can agree with both those points.

Blades
02-26-2018, 05:00 AM
I don't. My old Xbox died hard, and now there's talk that the capacitors are starting to leak.

Leynos
02-26-2018, 05:24 AM
But compared to this:

http://ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/54/2017/10/Original-Xbox-920x561.jpg

I think this console is 30x more appealing:

https://images.techhive.com/images/article/2013/10/360_old-100058575-large.jpg

I haven't owned a OG Xbox for more than a month, but my buddy has one that we always play San Andreas. The thing is ugly and massive, and the neon green theme is hideous. I think Microsoft took a complete 180 with the 360.

The GameCube miniDVDs are 1.4 GBs, I don't know who started this habit of rounding them up(I've seen it done constantly), but its not genuine.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ

1.5GB Sorry. Unless you can prove every magazine form the era and pretty much every source of info says otherwise.

Leynos
02-26-2018, 05:26 AM
But the OG XBox was built like tank and to last (unlike the launch 360) and tbh the Crystal OG XBox looks really nice.

I've had two OG Xbox die on me. The things had faulty DVD drives and PSU's.

Team Andromeda
02-26-2018, 05:34 AM
I've had two OG Xbox die on me. The things had faulty DVD drives and PSU's.

There's always some bad lot. I still have my launch USA model and the only issue has been with the Thomson DVD drive, the latter Philips and Samsung drives were far better. The system was built to last and also was really quite too

Kamahl
02-26-2018, 01:48 PM
There's always some bad lot. I still have my launch USA model and the only issue has been with the Thomson DVD drive, the latter Philips and Samsung drives were far better. The system was built to last and also was really quite too
My OG Xbox had one of the bad DVD drives, still sad about it. I also still hate microsoft for coming up with the worst named console ever, the Xbox One, because now we have to call the (far superior) Xbox the OG Xbox...

Team Andromeda
02-26-2018, 06:58 PM
My OG Xbox had one of the bad DVD drives, still sad about it. I also still hate microsoft for coming up with the worst named console ever, the Xbox One, because now we have to call the (far superior) Xbox the OG Xbox...

I will disagree. For me the Wii was a laughable name for the console and I was never happy with the Genesis load of crap. All early OG XBox came with the Thomason drive and while they were crap, it was a lot better than the rubbish CD lens the PS and PS2 shipped with imo

Leynos
02-26-2018, 10:46 PM
Genesis>Mega Drive

Mega Drive is vague and generic. Why not Mega Force/Mega Engine or something equally as stupid sounding? Genesis means birth and was the birth of the SEGA most came to know and love. Genesis, Saturn, Nomad, Dreamcast all great names. Nintendo IMO has only had two good names for their consoles. Gamecube and Switch. Switch even has a great logo with the Yin Yang, Gamecube ha d a good logo as well. Xbox and PlayStation are stupid names. Xbox named itself during that late 90s and early 2000s fad where everything had a name with X in it because it was XTREME!

Team Andromeda
02-27-2018, 03:20 AM
Genesis>Mega Drive


Genesis ? It was hardly the birth of either SEGA or even its console Hardware. It was a horrible name and one that made no sense . Btw Xbox got its name from Direct X, not because X was cool. I loved the Neo Geo myself it sounded cool and also had a fab logo to boot.

Kamahl
02-27-2018, 03:26 AM
Btw Xbox got its name from Direct X, not because X was cool. I loved the Neo Geo myself it sounded cool and also had a fab logo to boot.
Yeah but DirectX got its name because X was cool :).
Neo Geo for sure in the top best console names ever, still sounds cool. I will still disagree with you on the Wii name TA. Yes it sounds much worse, but it's not one of those "reboot" names. I would also say the new Doom is horribly named for the same reason. Now we are forced to say OG Doom and Doom 2016 which is just dumb and unnecessary if they put a proper title.

Leynos
02-27-2018, 03:49 AM
It was both. That shade of green was also a common XTREME color at the time as well. MS says it's because they only had a green marker but BS IMO. Everything was green and Xtreme! Direct X and Xbox was no doubt MS marketing team going with the fad.

https://i.imgur.com/P8Mbr1U.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RQ4h0l7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eCPQ32c.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wj21QCk.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NHwNQrr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iWmNEDQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7nHqSCF.jpg

Team Andromeda
02-27-2018, 03:54 AM
Yeah but DirectX got its name because X was cool :).
Neo Geo for sure in the top best console names ever, still sounds cool. I will still disagree with you on the Wii name TA. Yes it sounds much worse, but it's not one of those "reboot" names. I would also say the new Doom is horribly named for the same reason. Now we are forced to say OG Doom and Doom 2016 which is just dumb and unnecessary if they put a proper title.

I rate Neo Geo up there with the 3DO as super cool names for consoles. Wii sounded terrible and in the UK, lead to plenty of urinating jokes, the Code name for the console was much better IMO 'Revolution'. I don't mind reboot names myself, but I can why some wouldn't like it.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 04:20 AM
Genesis>Mega Drive

Mega Drive is vague and generic. Why not Mega Force/Mega Engine or something equally as stupid sounding? Genesis means birth and was the birth of the SEGA most came to know and love. Genesis, Saturn, Nomad, Dreamcast all great names. Nintendo IMO has only had two good names for their consoles. Gamecube and Switch. Switch even has a great logo with the Yin Yang, Gamecube ha d a good logo as well. Xbox and PlayStation are stupid names. Xbox named itself during that late 90s and early 2000s fad where everything had a name with X in it because it was XTREME!

It was and still is called the Sega Mega Drive in every country around the world except North America, and the only reason for that is that some obscure and pointless company in the states apparently had already trademarked the name 'Mega Drive' so Sega were not allowed to use it. That is the only reason Sega of America had to come up with a new name for the console, otherwise it would be known as the Mega Drive in America too because, y'know, that's it's correct name. :p

Leynos
02-27-2018, 04:55 AM
Doesn't matter Genesis is a better name. Mega Drive as a name is garbage. Ultra Force, Ultra Drive, Super Drive. Mega Drive. It fucking sucks. It tells the consumer nothing. Genesis means birth and was a fitting name to usher in a new era for SEGA. The US is also the largest market for games anyway.Always has been.


Because of an old crappy game, you got Lylat Wars instead of StarFox. StarFox is the better name. The only time I can think of off the top of my head a trademark forced a change for the better aside from Genesis is the Blue DC Swirl instead of the Orange the US and Japan got. (it's not red). You guys also got the better SNES. We got the giant grey/purple lego brick. So Genesis name & logo/Starfox we got the better end. DC logo/SNES design you did.

Thierry Henry
02-27-2018, 05:10 AM
I'm in a designated "Mega Drive" territory but I too prefer the Genesis name.

Mega Drive, to me, sounds like some sort of memory storage device.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 05:28 AM
Doesn't matter Genesis is a better name. Mega Drive as a name is garbage. Ultra Force, Ultra Drive, Super Drive. Mega Drive. It fucking sucks. It tells the consumer nothing. Genesis means birth and was a fitting name to usher in a new era for SEGA. The US is also the largest market for games anyway.Always has been.


Because of an old crappy game, you got Lylat Wars instead of StarFox. StarFox is the better name. The only time I can think of off the top of my head a trademark forced a change for the better aside from Genesis is the Blue DC Swirl instead of the Orange the US and Japan got. (it's not red). You guys also got the better SNES. We got the giant grey/purple lego brick. So Genesis name & logo/Starfox we got the better end. DC logo/SNES design you did.

What has the size of the US games market got to do with anything?! I was explaining that the Mega Drive would be called the same in the states were it not for another company using the name. If you hate Sega's chosen name of 'Mega Drive' so much I'm guessing you don't like the name 'Master System' either. What the hell is the name 'Saturn' or 'Dreamcast' supposed to be telling the consumer?! They're just names. 'Master System' and 'Mega Drive' sound cool, they sound like the future. "Captain, analysis of the ship's onboard Master System reveals their intended course." "Excellent! Helmsman, engage the Mega Drive engine and let's join the pursuit!" :cool:

Team Andromeda
02-27-2018, 05:31 AM
[B]

What has the size of the US games market got to do with anything?! I was explaining that the Mega Drive would be called the same in the states were it not for another company using the name. If you hate Sega's chosen name of 'Mega Drive' so much I'm guessing you don't like the name 'Master System' either. What the hell is the name 'Saturn' or 'Dreamcast' supposed to be telling the consumer?! They're just names. 'Master System' and 'Mega Drive' sound cool, they sound like the future. "Captain, analysis of the ship's onboard Master System reveals their intended course." "Excellent! Helmsman, engage the Mega Drive engine and let's join the pursuit!" :cool:

Yep well said . Mega Drive sounds cool, Genesis sounds like something a school teacher would say. Also I hated SEGA CD its logo and the startup music was horrible compared to the Pal and Jap versions as the CDX name was horrible compared to the Multi-Mega.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 05:31 AM
I'm in a designated "Mega Drive" territory but I too prefer the Genesis name.

Mega Drive, to me, sounds like some sort of memory storage device.

Judas. :p

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 05:36 AM
Yep well said . Mega Drive sounds cool, Genesis sounds like something a school teacher would say. Also I hated SEGA CD its logo and the startup music was horrible compared to the Pal and Jap versions as the CDX name was horrible compared to the Multi-Mega.

Thanks, and yeah the name 'Mega CD' just fits so well with 'Mega Drive'. Whereas, according to what SegataS was saying about consumers, how would the average US consumer know that the 'Sega CD' had anything to do with the 'Genesis'? They're not even remotely similar names.

Leynos
02-27-2018, 06:43 AM
Anything with Mega in it sounds like a 1980s storage device as mentioned. When I speak of Genesis I'm not speaking with nostalgia. Mega CD and SEGA CD are dumb names. I also never mentioned anything about SEGA CD before this post. Don't put words in my mouth. That's some shit to the bull son.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxT2G2HiFmE

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 06:50 AM
The reason I mentioned the Sega CD is because you said that the name 'Mega Drive' meant nothing to consumers. I countered that by asking what the names 'Saturn' and 'Dreamcast' were supposed to mean to consumers and then, as an example, wondered how the average US consumer would know that the 'Sega CD' had anything to do with the 'Genesis' going off the names alone. At least over here the name 'Mega CD' can be linked to 'Mega Drive'. So in summing up you think the names 'Genesis', 'Nomad', 'Saturn' and 'Dreamcast' are cool but that 'Master System', 'Mega Drive' and 'Game Gear' are shit? OK, well now that's all fine and dandy but that's called an opinion and you know what they say about them... ;)

Leynos
02-27-2018, 07:02 AM
Well to be fair in the US SEGA at the time few and I mean VERY few even heard of SMS. So to the vast majority, Genesis was the first SEGA console. There was only Genesis so SEGA CD made sense in that way. What other console did SEGA have? None we thought. I never heard of it until 1998 I think when I walked into a local game shop and they had one. The guy explained in his decade working there it was the only one he had ever seen. Sega Master System was about as well known then in the US as the Xavix Port was before the Wii.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 07:15 AM
Well to be fair in the US SEGA at the time few and I mean VERY few even heard of SMS. So to the vast majority, Genesis was the first SEGA console. There was only Genesis so SEGA CD made sense in that way. What other console did SEGA have? None we thought. I never heard of it until 1998 I think when I walked into a local game shop and they had one. The guy explained in his decade working there it was the only one he had ever seen. Sega Master System was about as well known then in the US as the Xavix Port was before the Wii.

Yes I understand that the Master System was terribly marketed in the US and as such was virtually unknown. It was Sega's fault really for not handling the marketing and distribution themselves (or at least getting somebody competent to do it) and, instead, handing it off to a third party (Tonka) who fucked it up. Hardware wise it was superior to the NES in most respects but hardly anybody in America got to find that out for themselves. So in that sense I see why the name 'Genesis' was kind of appropriate for Sega of America to use given that it was a new beginning for the company in the states. Over here, and in Australia, the Master System was very popular (here in the UK it was marketed and distributed excellently by Virgin on Sega's behalf) and so we already knew all about the goodies Sega had to offer by the time the Mega Drive was released in 1990.

bultje112
02-27-2018, 07:17 AM
Do you have a pic?
I wasn't aware Hori made any peripherals for Dreamcast.

https://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/2/f/sega-dreamcast-ascii-pad-ft-controller-pad-japan-jp-18821edf5a75d938bcdd787baf88d28f.jpg

Thierry Henry
02-27-2018, 07:21 AM
Judas. :p

lol

I actually get that a whole lot over here. :p
Not only that but also in the way I say "Dreamcast". I use the US pronunciation of it. Instead of "Dream Kaast", as you'd probably find elsewhere.

Leynos
02-27-2018, 07:22 AM
I much prefer my SMS to my NES TBH. The only thing I hate is the default controller. Can use the Genny except on Shinobi for some reason.

bultje112
02-27-2018, 07:24 AM
Doesn't matter Genesis is a better name. Mega Drive as a name is garbage. Ultra Force, Ultra Drive, Super Drive. Mega Drive. It fucking sucks. It tells the consumer nothing. Genesis means birth and was a fitting name to usher in a new era for SEGA. The US is also the largest market for games anyway.Always has been.


Because of an old crappy game, you got Lylat Wars instead of StarFox. StarFox is the better name. The only time I can think of off the top of my head a trademark forced a change for the better aside from Genesis is the Blue DC Swirl instead of the Orange the US and Japan got. (it's not red). You guys also got the better SNES. We got the giant grey/purple lego brick. So Genesis name & logo/Starfox we got the better end. DC logo/SNES design you did.

what a load of shit. the only better name for a console you could possibly come up with is the master system and sega had already done that.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 07:27 AM
I much prefer my SMS to my NES TBH. The only thing I hate is the default controller. Can use the Genny except on Shinobi for some reason.

lol yeah, the Master System's controllers were not exactly it's strong point.

Thierry Henry
02-27-2018, 07:29 AM
Intelligent High Grade Multi Purpose Super System.

A complete mouthful, but I'd have gone with something like that. :p

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 07:33 AM
Intelligent High Grade Multi Purpose Super System.

A complete mouthful, but I'd have gone with something like that. :p

If I made a games console I'd want to call it Skynet...but James Cameron would probably sue me. :?

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 07:37 AM
How about the Super Home Interactive Teleplay console, or SHIT for short? "Mum, could I have a SHIT for Christmas? All my friends at school have got SHIT and I'm the only one who doesn't have SHIT!" :p

Leynos
02-27-2018, 08:03 AM
SEGA Matrix System.

Thierry Henry
02-27-2018, 08:12 AM
How about the Super Home Interactive Teleplay console, or SHIT for short? "Mum, could I have a SHIT for Christmas? All my friends at school have got SHIT and I'm the only one who doesn't have SHIT!" :p

That reminds me of the parody videos for the crazyness that was the Retro VGS/Coleco Chameleon.

I can't find those now (perhaps they've been taken down, I'll maybe ask the folks over at AtariAge) but they were hilarious. IIRC, they parodied that debacle as the "Nostalgia S.H.I.T."

Team Andromeda
02-27-2018, 08:38 AM
Genesis was the first SEGA console. There was only Genesis so SEGA CD made sense in that way. What other console did SEGA have?

Looking over how horrible the name Genesis was, it should have been called the Genesis CD in keeping with the Base platform and why call the Multi-Mega the CDX, that made no sense what so ever

Thierry Henry
02-27-2018, 08:53 AM
and why call the Multi-Mega the CDX, that made no sense what so ever

(C)ompanion
(D)og
(X)cellent

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 10:38 AM
(C)ompanion
(D)og
(X)cellent

Completely Damn Xcellent, which is pretty much what a combined Mega Drive/Mega CD is anyway! :p

Tower of Power
02-27-2018, 10:45 AM
https://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/2/f/sega-dreamcast-ascii-pad-ft-controller-pad-japan-jp-18821edf5a75d938bcdd787baf88d28f.jpg

That's the Ascii Pad FT: https://segaretro.org/ASCII_Pad_FT

Was it secretly made by Hori? The entry in Sega Retro says Hori didn't make anything for Dreamcast: https://segaretro.org/Hori

Yharnamresident
02-27-2018, 11:13 AM
1.5GB Sorry. Unless you can prove every magazine form the era and pretty much every source of info says otherwise.They're all rounding them up my man. No one says MiniDVDs have 1.5 GBs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDVD


8 cm single sided 1.4 GB


Nintendo used a disc-based format for their GameCube system, which is a variant of an 8 cm DVD. This format is also supported by the Wii for Backward compatability with the Gamecube.

https://www.newcyberian.com/mini-dvdr-printing.html

https://www.adorama.com/images/Large/so5dmr30l1h.jpg


Even everyone's favourite redhair man says 1.4 GBs at 1:24:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnEvlPo-Xh8


My OG Xbox had one of the bad DVD drives, still sad about it. I also still hate microsoft for coming up with the worst named console ever, the Xbox One, because now we have to call the (far superior) Xbox the OG Xbox...I agree so much. We know exactly why they named it that, "the all in one experience", but you can't name a third console something like that.

Its funny, on YouTube I see a lot of next-gen Xbox speculation videos where they call it "Xbox Two".


Genesis>Mega Drive

Mega Drive is vague and generic. Why not Mega Force/Mega Engine or something equally as stupid sounding? Genesis means birth and was the birth of the SEGA most came to know and love. Genesis, Saturn, Nomad, Dreamcast all great names. Nintendo IMO has only had two good names for their consoles. Gamecube and Switch. Switch even has a great logo with the Yin Yang, Gamecube ha d a good logo as well. Xbox and PlayStation are stupid names. Xbox named itself during that late 90s and early 2000s fad where everything had a name with X in it because it was XTREME!Yea Sega had the best consoles names for the most part.

I kinda have a feeling thats why Xbox bombs in Japan. The name sounds so American, and late 90s.


Genesis ? It was hardly the birth of either SEGA or even its console Hardware. It was a horrible name and one that made no sense . Btw Xbox got its name from Direct X, not because X was cool. I loved the Neo Geo myself it sounded cool and also had a fab logo to boot.But Genesis is a Greek name.

And so is "Mega". Damn it.


Well to be fair in the US SEGA at the time few and I mean VERY few even heard of SMS. So to the vast majority, Genesis was the first SEGA console. There was only Genesis so SEGA CD made sense in that way. What other console did SEGA have? None we thought. I never heard of it until 1998 I think when I walked into a local game shop and they had one. The guy explained in his decade working there it was the only one he had ever seen. Sega Master System was about as well known then in the US as the Xavix Port was before the Wii.I played Genesis in the 90s but didn't know the Master System existed until about 2009.

Tower of Power
02-27-2018, 11:55 AM
They're all rounding them up my man. No one says MiniDVDs have 1.5 GBs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDVD





https://www.newcyberian.com/mini-dvdr-printing.html

https://www.adorama.com/images/Large/so5dmr30l1h.jpg


Even everyone's favourite redhair man says 1.4 GBs at 1:24:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnEvlPo-Xh8

Yea Sega had the best consoles names for the most part.

But Genesis is a Greek name.

And so is "Mega". Damn it.

I played Genesis in the 90s but didn't know the Master System existed until about 2009.

It's possible that Nintendo's version of Mini-DVD has a slightly different storage capacity than any other format available. It's tough to find legitimate, hard info, but pretty much all the sources I've run across say 1.5.

The Dolphin emulator wiki says 1.5: https://wiki.dolphin-emu.org/index.php?title=Ripping_Games

News articles from around that time say 1.5GB: http://www.zdnet.com/article/whats-inside-the-gamecube/

So I assume that there must have been a Nintendo press release or something that said 1.5 and everyone has ran with it since. But that's not good enough, how do we find out how big the games actually were? I would say that the ISO size is probably a good place to start.

Doing a little more digging, I found this thread that says GameCube ISO size is 1,459,978, 240 bytes: https://gbatemp.net/threads/gc-and-wii-iso-size.301080/

So I believe that's 1.459GB unformatted, or about 1.35GB formatted. If you're looking at unformatted capacity, it wouldn't be against conventions to round up to 1.5GB.

That got me wondering about exactly how many bytes mini-DVDs can store, and it looks like it depends: http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa6.htm

Mini-DVD-Rs (I believe this is the kind in your picture) have 1,230,000,000 bytes capacity (slightly smaller than a GameCube disc). Yet they call this 1.4gb?

And the largest looks to be DVD+RW at 1,463,386,112 bytes (slightly larger than GameCube). They still call this 1.4GB on every package I've seen.

Interestingly, none of the sizes match up perfectly with the GameCube discs, so they likely were using a proprietary format.

So, honestly, I can't say for sure whether 1.4 or 1.5 is correct, seems like a matter of semantics, I think you could argue either way. Nintendo probably said their discs had 1.5 for marketing purposes. But then why don't mini-DVD manufacturers say the same for their discs, that may even have slightly more capacity? It's probably just a convention to call them 1.4GB so as not to confuse people.

Also, the name "Genesis" is superior to "Mega Drive."

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 12:20 PM
It's not superior it's just different. It's what people grew up with and remember the console being called in the states. The rest of the planet was perfectly happy with the name 'Mega Drive'. Anyway, whether it's a Genesis or a Mega Drive, it's one of the greatest games consoles of all-time and of that I'm sure we can all agree.

Yharnamresident
02-27-2018, 12:22 PM
Interestingly, none of the sizes match up perfectly with the GameCube discs, so they likely were using a proprietary format.
Yea they were likely using a clone format like Wii and Wii U, but if they were gonna go through the trouble of increasing the disc space, then they would've done more than 100 MBs or 40 MBs.


Also doesn't the PS2 play double-layer DVDs? If Nintendo did that with the GameCube, would've been much better. That Wiki page says 2.66 GBs for double-layer MiniDVDs.

Tower of Power
02-27-2018, 12:32 PM
Yea they were likely using a clone format like Wii and Wii U, but if they were gonna go through the trouble of increasing the disc space, then they would've done more than 100 MBs or 40 MBs.


Also doesn't the PS2 play double-layer DVDs? If Nintendo did that with the GameCube, would've been much better. That Wiki page says 2.66 GBs for double-layer MiniDVDs.

Well, as my post says, it looks like the Gamecube format is bigger than some varieties of mini-DVD, and smaller than others, so whatever proprietary modifications they made likely weren't to increase space, the difference in space is probably just a coincidence, they were probably looking to optimize it for games and to prevent piracy. I don't know how the sectors on a Gamecube DVD are layed out compared to a standard one, so I can't speak to that, but that's my conjecture.

Team Andromeda
02-27-2018, 01:19 PM
I kinda have a feeling thats why Xbox bombs in Japan. The name sounds so American, and late 90s

You may be on to somthing, that's no doubt why the Master System and Mega CD bombed in Japan they sound 90's and so America to the something like the Famicom or Super Famicon, only the PC Eng did rather well in Japan and that sound like a PC, so maybe not:D


But Genesis is a Greek name

I thought it was Hebrew. And speaking of language why are so many Japanese consoles called English names and use English text, rather than. You'll never see a Western developed console called a Japanse name with Kanji Fonts and text.


I played Genesis in the 90s but didn't know the Master System existed until about 2009

I really have no idea how any SEGA fan wouldn't have any idea of SEGA past consoles or Arcade boards not matter if they were released in the country or not (really its not a dig). The Nomad was never brought to Europe or Japan, but I knew full well it existed and what it was and was gutted SEGA Europe never brought that system out over here, same for so many games and add ons like the Netlink, SEGA channel Ect. I was hardly a huge NEC fan, but I knew full well about the PC Eng and the Super Grafx long before the internet or google, just be being a huge fan of console gaming, I would always like to read or rivai consoles or the lastest gaming systems in the likes of CVG mag and so on.

Leynos
02-27-2018, 01:35 PM
Wii uses a modified DVD as Wii could play DVDs with a soft mod. Wii U just a custom disc with the single layer capacity of blu-ray. As far as I know, no Wii U game ever uses dual layer despite some games being too large for the disc like Xenoblade X. Gamecube was also a custom disc from Panasonic. All 3 discs are from Panasonic. They were not just Mini-DVD. They just used a similar tech but were custom for Gamecube.


X in Japan means No or cancel or cross. Why Japanese games on PlayStation use circle to confirm and X to cancel where int he west it's reversed. So MS screwed themselves with the name in Japan. The Cancelbox lol.

Yharnamresident
02-27-2018, 02:09 PM
Well, as my post says, it looks like the Gamecube format is bigger than some varieties of mini-DVD, and smaller than others, so whatever proprietary modifications they made likely weren't to increase space, the difference in space is probably just a coincidence, they were probably looking to optimize it for games and to prevent piracy. I don't know how the sectors on a Gamecube DVD are layed out compared to a standard one, so I can't speak to that, but that's my conjecture.Yea there seems to be a lack of information on this specific subject(differences between GameCube MiniDVDs and ordinary MiniDVDs).



I really have no idea how any SEGA fan wouldn't have any idea of SEGA past consoles or Arcade boards not matter if they were released in the country or not (really its not a dig). The Nomad was never brought to Europe or Japan, but I knew full well it existed and what it was and was gutted SEGA Europe never brought that system out over here, same for so many games and add ons like the Netlink, SEGA channel Ect. I was hardly a huge NEC fan, but I knew full well about the PC Eng and the Super Grafx long before the internet or google, just be being a huge fan of console gaming, I would always like to read or rivai consoles or the lastest gaming systems in the likes of CVG mag and so on.Well the first time I used the internet was in 2000. By that time I was done with Genesis, playing PS1(until PS2 in June 2002) and completely uninterested in retro games. It wasn't until late 2000s that I became interested again in retro consoles. Yes, that is a huge freaking gap I'd say.



X in Japan means No or cancel or cross. Why Japanese games on PlayStation use circle to confirm and X to cancel where int he west it's reversed. So MS screwed themselves with the name in Japan. The Cancelbox lol.I think with Ridge Racer Type 4 they kept that format for the U.S. release. I screwed up a lot pressing X instead of O.




I thought it was Hebrew. And speaking of language why are so many Japanese consoles called English names and use English text, rather than. You'll never see a Western developed console called a Japanse name with Kanji Fonts and text.
This is a phenomenon I can't understand. Even with Japanese games released in Japan, they use a combination of English and Japanese for the menus and in-game text.

Kanon
02-27-2018, 02:53 PM
This is a phenomenon I can't understand. Even with Japanese games released in Japan, they use a combination of English and Japanese for the menus and in-game text.
I read a long while ago a theory about Japan having a sort of inferiority complex, ever since WWII, up until the mid nineties I believe, and they model a lot after the western world (cartoon very Disney lack, english language, religious symbols, etc). Not sure if there is anything to it, most of religious imagery is used just because it looks cool, and english I believe is used because is so much easier than japanese so kids read easier basic english text like Start or Select, before they learn to read the proper japanese characters... (That, or is a way to make games easier to localize later :D )

Team Andromeda
02-27-2018, 03:00 PM
Well the first time I used the internet was in 2000. By that time I was done with Genesis, playing PS1(until PS2 in June 2002) and completely uninterested in retro games. It wasn't until late 2000s that I became interested again in retro consoles. Yes, that is a huge freaking gap I'd say.

Its got nothing to do with the internet and just being interested in gaming. When the PC Eng came out there was no internet in my aera, quite a lot people didn't even have a phone line. But I was well into my gaming and even though I was all for the Zx Spectrum and Master system I knew of systems like the PC Eng, because it was just covered in the gaming press even if the system never came to Pal land.

Thierry Henry
02-27-2018, 03:05 PM
I knew of systems like the PC Eng, because it was just covered in the gaming press even if the system never came to Pal land.

Wasn't there at least some limited distribution of it? France, I think.

Team Andromeda
02-27-2018, 03:14 PM
Wasn't there at least some limited distribution of it? France, I think.

There was a tiny leak of the Pal units, but it was never officially released and was sold in tiny amounts, the Master system most prob sold more units in a single USA state. Just reading the press and taking a general interest would let you know that SEGA made and sold consoles long before the Mega Drive. You didn't have to be in Japan or have google to know of systems like the FM Towns, reading the likes of Gamefan or CVG would alert you to such consoles or import shops.

j_factor
02-27-2018, 03:18 PM
Wasn't there at least some limited distribution of it? France, I think.

The Japanese PC Engine was available in France. Not sure how the hookups worked. The actual (rare) PAL Turbografx was sold officially in Spain and Portugal, and unofficially in the UK mainly by a mail order company. It's a rare item today. Some new old stock turned up like 8 years ago.

Thierry Henry
02-27-2018, 03:37 PM
It's a rare item today. Some new old stock turned up like 8 years ago.

Picked one up from eBay back in 2012. $80 with the Blazing Lazers game.
IIRC, they were still readily available (from one particular seller) for at least a couple years after that as well.

Leynos
02-27-2018, 03:41 PM
Bought my Turbo16 in a store for about $40 in 2012.

Team Andromeda
02-27-2018, 03:59 PM
X in Japan means No or cancel or cross. Why Japanese games on PlayStation use circle to confirm and X to cancel where int he west it's reversed. So MS screwed themselves with the name in Japan. The Cancelbox lol.

No it does not, its just a single character in can mean lots of thinks depending on the context of how it's being used, even in the West X can mean a lot of things from a kiss, to Porn or the number 10. Also SONY have used the X in Japan with the PSX (ok it boombed) by the MSX format was hugly popular in Japan and asian and there's been various Car models in Japan using the X .

Yharnamresident
02-27-2018, 04:16 PM
There was a tiny leak of the Pal units, but it was never officially released and was sold in tiny amounts, the Master system most prob sold more units in a single USA state. Just reading the press and taking a general interest would let you know that SEGA made and sold consoles long before the Mega Drive. You didn't have to be in Japan or have google to know of systems like the FM Towns, reading the likes of Gamefan or CVG would alert you to such consoles or import shops.Dude, the Master System was barely existent in the U.S. and even less in Canada. You shouldn't be so surprised I didn't know about the console for so long.

Listen to Adam Koralik's story at 14:10:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFg7pKM0Elo


Picked one up from eBay back in 2012. $80 with the Blazing Lazers game.
IIRC, they were still readily available (from one particular seller) for at least a couple years after that as well.

Well whats it like? I can imagine no PC Engine were properly ported to PAL. Like slowed-down music and gameplay.

Leynos
02-27-2018, 04:30 PM
I'm really not exaggerating when I saw the Master System was as well known in the US as the Xavix Port. In KB Toys, Toys R Us, Sears and all the largest retailers at the time you never saw Master System anything. No games, no systems no accessories in sight. It was obviously sold somewhere but like Wii U and now Vita I believe retailers just stopped carrying it not long after release here. Wasn't until Genesis we saw something other than Atari or Nintendo in stores. As a kid, we had a card to every movie rental store in the valley. Before Genesis, they all only carried NES games and systems. NES had a near 100% monopoly on the market. Master System in the US was as elusive as Jimmy Hoffa's body. Was not until the latter 00's that SEGA Master System seemed to get any recognition in the US as oh there was another SEGA console!? And became a collectors item but for nearly 30 years it may as well have no existed over here.

Thierry Henry
02-27-2018, 04:35 PM
Well whats it like? I can imagine no PC Engine were properly ported to PAL. Like slowed-down music and gameplay.

There are no PAL games, so it plays US-games. One can probably mod it back to 60hz.

I sometimes try out HuCards and CD games on mine.





https://i.imgur.com/JToiWBl.jpg

IrishNinja
02-27-2018, 04:44 PM
I'm really not exaggerating when I saw the Master System was as well known in the US as the Xavix Port. In KB Toys, Toys R Us, Sears and all the largest retailers at the time you never saw Master System anything. No games, no systems no accessories in sight. It was obviously sold somewhere but like Wii U and now Vita I believe retailers just stopped carrying it not long after release here. Wasn't until Genesis we saw something other than Atari or Nintendo in stores. As a kid, we had a card to every movie rental store in the valley. Before Genesis, they all only carried NES games and systems. NES had a near 100% monopoly on the market. Master System in the US was as elusive as Jimmy Hoffa's body. Was not until the latter 00's that SEGA Master System seemed to get any recognition in the US as oh there was another SEGA console!? And became a collectors item but for nearly 30 years it may as well have no existed over here.

i can (anecdotally) confirm this, i don't recall any SMS at sears & such. TRU had a small section but the one by me dumped the system & library by about '91, as Golden Axe Warrior was the last game i got there (and one of the very few they'd bothered to stock in the last year or so). most of my SMS games back then i got from Lionel Playworld (haha) going under & liquidating them.

NES was everywhere - hell, even the pharmacy out here rented their games. mark cerny says sega peaked around 4% market share, so saying they had next to no presence out here is pretty fair.

j_factor
02-27-2018, 05:32 PM
THe SMS did get covered in US magazines. Gaming mags weren't big yet during that time period though. Some of the earlier Genesis print material also show a few of the later SMS games and advertise the Master System II and/or the Power Base Converter. I always saw SMS stuff at used game stores in the early 90s and the Master Gear was available until like 1994. I believe you would have heard of it if you were paying attention. Of course, you didn't have to pay attention to know about the NES.

I vaguely recall people calling it the "Sega Master" instead of Master System or SMS.

Leynos
02-27-2018, 05:42 PM
I think most kids in the early 90s just had Nintendo Power Magazine.

Tower of Power
02-27-2018, 05:47 PM
I owned a Sega Master system in the mid/late 80s and that was the only one I ever saw, most people that came over had never heard of it.

Prince Talmit
02-27-2018, 08:46 PM
Dude, the Master System was barely existent in the U.S.
Listen to Adam Koralik's story at 14:10:

I'm really not exaggerating when I saw the Master System was as well known in the US as the Xavix Port. In KB Toys, Toys R Us, Sears and all the largest retailers at the time you never saw Master System anything. No games, no systems no accessories in sight.
Well, that's not true. And the story noted in the youtube vid is only describing someone's ignorant impression 10 years after the Master System was out.
The Master System had prime-time television commercials and print ads, especially showing off the 3D glasses and lightgun. The Master System had shelf space at all the major retailers: Kay-B Toys, Sears, Kmart, Toys R Us. Even up to a couple years after Genesis' launch Master System games were right there next to the Genesis games at Toys R Us and other stores.
It obviously wasn't the most popular but it wasn't some unknown system to gamers in the later 80's to early 90's. Sure if someone only became aware of Sega in 1997 or whatever, maybe Master System would seem non-existent.


i can (anecdotally) confirm this, i don't recall any SMS at sears & such. TRU had a small section but the one by me dumped the system & library by about '91
Right about Toys R US. They did have a small section, because the MS library was small. There was a good half year after Genesis was out that there were more Master System games then Genesis games on display. The Genesis had been out for nearly 3 years by the time they stopped stocking Master System games - that's a pretty notable overlap.

Consider, how was Phantasy Star so popular if no one heard of the system?

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 09:52 PM
The fact remains that, as I've already pointed out, Tonka fucked up the marketing and distribution of the Master System in the US. Although, to be fair, as a company they had little to no experience of marketing a video games console, which makes it even harder to understand why Sega chose them to push the Master System in the US in the first place.

IrishNinja
02-27-2018, 09:56 PM
man, i wish my TRU had kept SMS stock that long!

and yeah: gamepro, VG&CE, EGM etc would do reviews for SMS games here & there, but even when it was quarterly, i honestly felt like the team sega newsletter thing covered more stuff than they did on average, and that thing was the size of a pamphlet

there's a ton of people who grew up in that generation that didn't know the system existed

Leynos
02-27-2018, 10:05 PM
Well, that's not true. And the story noted in the youtube vid is only describing someone's ignorant impression 10 years after the Master System was out.
The Master System had prime-time television commercials and print ads, especially showing off the 3D glasses and lightgun. The Master System had shelf space at all the major retailers: Kay-B Toys, Sears, Kmart, Toys R Us. Even up to a couple years after Genesis' launch Master System games were right there next to the Genesis games at Toys R Us and other stores.
It obviously wasn't the most popular but it wasn't some unknown system to gamers in the later 80's to early 90's. Sure if someone only became aware of Sega in 1997 or whatever, maybe Master System would seem non-existent.


Right about Toys R US. They did have a small section because the MS library was small. There was a good half year after Genesis was out that there were more Master System games then Genesis games on display. The Genesis had been out for nearly 3 years by the time they stopped stocking Master System games - that's a pretty notable overlap.

Consider, how was Phantasy Star so popular if no one heard of the system?

There were no ADS in this town. None.Toys R Us didn't have any SMS games in this city and in fact, Lionel Playworld had more locations back then in SLC. And like I said we had a membership to every rental store in the valley and that was a literal statement. They only rented NES games until Genesis came along.

Prince Talmit
02-27-2018, 10:09 PM
man, i wish my TRU had kept SMS stock that long!
They did. You said so yourself just 5 hours ago:

t the one by me dumped the system & library by about '91



and yeah: gamepro, VG&CE, EGM etc would do reviews for SMS games here & there, but even when it was quarterly, i honestly felt like the team sega newsletter thing covered more stuff than they did on average, and that thing was the size of a pamphlet

there's a ton of people who grew up in that generation that didn't know the system existed
The print reviews were "here & there" because Master System software was at a trickle. The magazines covered what games were coming out.
Sure there were tons of people that didn't know the system existed. But any serious gamer of the day certainly knew it existed (or even anyone who was conscious and went to a Toys R Us videogame aisle in the late 80s.)

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-27-2018, 10:15 PM
I'm not even sure what you guys are debating here. Yes, if you were a serious gamer who read all the magazines of the day and were in the loop as to which companies were doing what in the US then yes, you would have been aware of the Master System when it launched. However, if you were a casual gamer who relied on word of mouth from friends and relatives to keep you up to date then no, you probably would not have been aware at all of the console's existence.

Prince Talmit
02-27-2018, 10:17 PM
There were no ADS in this town. None.Toys R Us didn't have any SMS games in this city and in fact, Lionel Playworld had more locations back then in SLC. And like I said we had a membership to every rental store in the valley and that was a literal statement. They only rented NES games until Genesis came along.

There were no ads in my town either. But there were on national cable TV, and in nationally distributed comic books and magazines. Sure if you lived in an isolated town and were just a child then I'm sure you didn't know of a lot of things that existed.

Prince Talmit
02-27-2018, 10:20 PM
I'm not even sure what you guys are debating here. Yes, if you were a serious gamer who read all the magazines of the day and were in the loop as to which companies were doing what in the US then yes, you would have been aware of the Master System when it launched. However, if you were a casual gamer who relied on word of mouth from friends and relatives to keep you up to date then no, you probably would not have been aware at all of the console's existence.

I'm just countering the assertion that the Master System "was barely existent in the U.S." or that "not exaggerating when I say the Master System was as well known in the US as the Xavix Port", or that there were no advertising and marketing, or that it wasn't in national chain stores. All that is bullshit and revisionist history.
Everyone who bought a Genesis in the first couple yeas got advertisements for the Power Base convertor and Master System games. How is it barely existent and unknown.
None of the 100s of thousands of people who bought the Genesis in the first year or two ever looked at the back of the box?


(regarding Tonka) which makes it even harder to understand why Sega chose them to push the Master System in the US in the first place.
That has been explained in the past, I vaguely recall it was discussed in an interview. Tonka had distribution networks and guaranteed shelf space in major toy store chains like ToysRUs and KayBee.

Leynos
02-27-2018, 10:23 PM
There were no ads in my town either. But there were on national cable TV, and in nationally distributed comic books and magazines. Sure if you lived in an isolated town and were just a child then I'm sure you didn't know of a lot of things that existed.

We didn't have cable at home. I live/lived in the capital city but yeah in SLC there was just nothing on SMS.

Prince Talmit
02-27-2018, 10:46 PM
but yeah in SLC there was just nothing on SMS.
That you were aware of.

Leynos
02-28-2018, 12:18 AM
That you were aware of.

That no one was aware of.

Ecco
02-28-2018, 12:18 AM
Maybe the SMS presence depended on the specific state or city? Here in a small city of upstate NY, I can confirm that no one seemed to know that the thing existed.

I also don't really know what you guys mean about people being informed or not. As kids of the 80's, NES seemed to be the only console that anyone knew about. That's why "videogames" were known as "Nintendo," like no one said the word "videogames;" people called playing videogames as "playing Nintendo." And mostly that meant playing Super Mario Bros. as the pack-in that came with the NES.

I remember absolutely zero presence of the SMS in TV ads or stores. We grew up with NES, then it became the console wars of SNES vs. Genesis.

I did know exactly one kid who owned a SMS but I considered it an oddity that his dad bought... like my older cousin who owned an Atari. Neither console was actually a presence in normal life.

Also Genesis never seemed to have a connection with SMS.

Actually the lack of SMS awareness was why the Game Gear was possible, as a "new" console that was actually playing SMS games that no one had ever known about lol.

Prince Talmit
02-28-2018, 12:42 AM
That no one was aware of.

Sure. That's why all those people never played Phantasy Star and established it as a revered classic. (not to mention Wonder Boy and Alex Kidd)



Maybe the SMS presence depended on the specific state or city? Here in a small city of upstate NY, I can confirm that no one seemed to know that the thing existed.
No one?


I remember absolutely zero presence of the SMS in TV ads or stores. We grew up with NES, then it became the console wars of SNES vs. Genesis.
Is it surprising that you don't remember something you weren't interested in?
No TV ads, you didn't see or remember any, so there were none?


I did know exactly one kid who owned a SMS but I considered it an oddity that his dad bought...
So it did exist where you lived, and you did know about it. I thought you said "no one seemed to know that the thing existed" and "absolutely zero presence of the SMS in TV ads or store"? Obviously it was available somewhere, or the kid never bought any games for it, just had the console his dad bought from another dimension?


Neither console was actually a presence in normal life.
Marginal consumer products never are.


Also Genesis never seemed to have a connection with SMS.
Ever hear of the Power Base Converter? Ever look at the back of a launch genesis box or the free give-away promos from the first year of Genesis' release?


Actually the lack of SMS awareness was why the Game Gear was possible, as a "new" console that was actually playing SMS games that no one had ever known about lol.
Oh. really?

Leynos
02-28-2018, 01:04 AM
No one. You need to stop being offended SMS had practically no presence in the US back then. Nintendo had 83% of the market by 1988. SEGA shared the rest of the 16% with Atari, Hudson, Commodore, and a couple others. You don't like this fact, well too bad. SMS deserved better but the facts are the facts. SEGA before Genesis in the US was sharing 16% of the market with several others and Atari and Com had a larger presence than SEGA and even 7800 and 64 were practically nonexistent in stores. Com64 You saw occasionally something. Genesis took nearly half of NES's market away from Nintendo. He's not wrong that people from parents to kids would just say go play Nintendo.

I remember a news story on TV in 1996-7 or so talking about how people were starting to not say go play Nintendo and saying go play PlayStation. NES back in the 80s wasn't often referred to as a video game machine back then even by the media. Just hot selling toy. After the 83 crash, the term video game was a dirty dirty word so Nintendo marketed the NES to look like a VCR and come with a Robot a Zapper and a Running Mat and say it was an ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM. Anything marketing wise to move away from the term video games. Teddy Ruxbin which was one of the best selling toys at the time refused to be sold at SEARS unless Nintendo was allowed to sell their NES "control deck". SEARS did NOT want to sell games at all after the 83 crash. SEARS was the Amazon of its day in the US. It was the largest retailer in the US. It sold everything and every year every kid remember that 500-page catalog at Christmas of everything sold in the store. Under video games. NES and Atari mainly I do remember NEC. There may have been an SMS at some point but NES was in it every year with a few pages while everyone else got 1 or half of a page.

Ecco
02-28-2018, 01:54 AM
Sure. That's why all those people never played Phantasy Star and established it as a revered classic. (not to mention Wonder Boy and Alex Kidd)

I never heard of Phantasy Star until I started reading this website, Sega-16. I'm still not familiar with Wonder Boy, and ironically Alex Kidd was the one game that the one kid had, with the only SMS I ever saw in my life (to this day). I considered it a lame platformer back then, whereas we all grew up loving SMB.


No one?

^Right, "no one" as I knew only one kid with a SMS, and practically everyone had a NES.



Is it surprising that you don't remember something you weren't interested in?
No TV ads, you didn't see or remember any, so there were none?


Lol, I have a fantastic memory, so that's not it; I was interested in videogames in general, and I would remember if there were ads. For example, I remember TV ads for SMB2, which I didn't like at the time.


So it did exist where you lived, and you did know about it. I thought you said "no one seemed to know that the thing existed" and "absolutely zero presence of the SMS in TV ads or store"? Obviously it was available somewhere, or the kid never bought any games for it, just had the console his dad bought from another dimension?

I compared it to the one Atari console that I saw. Both the SMS and Atari seemed did seem like oddities from another dimension lol.



Ever hear of the Power Base Converter? Ever look at the back of a launch genesis box or the free give-away promos from the first year of Genesis' release?


No I never did lol. I bought my Genesis in 1993 IIRC; it came with Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. No idea about PBC or SMS. They were not on my Genesis box lol.


Oh. really?

The Game Gear proves that no one knew about SMS, or else they wouldn't be selling the same games as "new" games on Game Gear lol. It's why the US was basically the only country with any popularity of Game Gear. It was kind of a brilliant move for Sega to take advantage of their SMS library in a country that was unfamiliar with it.

Yharnamresident
02-28-2018, 04:05 AM
That no one was aware of.Wikipedia says the Master System sold 2 million in the U.S., with those sales numbers you can't be surprised that no one knew about. Compared to Genesis with 20 million.


No one. You need to stop being offended SMS had practically no presence in the US back then. Nintendo had 83% of the market by 1988. SEGA shared the rest of the 16% with Atari, Hudson, Commodore, and a couple others. You don't like this fact,well too bad. SMS deserved better but the facts are the facts. Yea the guy is getting butthurt for a silly reason. I would've preferred if SMS was a huge success(because then they would be cheaper nowadays), but it wasn't for 2 reasons:

1. Tonka did a horrible job at distributing it
2. Nintendo had illegal monopoly with 3rd parties and retailers

Team Andromeda
02-28-2018, 04:13 AM
Dude, the Master System was barely existent in the U.S. and even less in Canada. You shouldn't be so surprised I didn't know about the console for so long.


And you think systems like the Sharp 68000, Fm Towns were widespread, never mind the PC Eng any of which were ever brought out the UK and were only covered in the UK. Just because a system sells like crap or never brought out officaly doesn't mean one doesn't know about it. You had magazine and TV coverage of the Master system inthe USA.
The Nomad sold like crap, was never brought to Japan or Japan, but I would bet many SEGA fans outside the USA knew of its and about it.

Team Andromeda
02-28-2018, 05:10 AM
Well, that's not true. And the story noted in the youtube vid is only describing someone's ignorant impression 10 years after the Master System was out.
The Master System had prime-time television commercials and print ads, especially showing off the 3D glasses and lightgun. The Master System had shelf space at all the major retailers: Kay-B Toys, Sears, Kmart, Toys R Us. Even up to a couple years after Genesis' launch Master System games were right there next to the Genesis games at Toys R Us and other stores.
It obviously wasn't the most popular but it wasn't some unknown system to gamers in the later 80's to early 90's. Sure if someone only became aware of Sega in 1997 or whatever, maybe Master System would seem non-existent.


Well said and isn't that just the trouble, so many of the SEGA Mega Drive die hards weren't even born when the 1st came out and only see to LOVE it because it sold well, all other SEGA system they don't care about becasue they sold like crap.. I also tire of these so-called gaming historians with their huge Ebay collection in the background, talking utter nonsense on various Youtube channels jumping on the retro bandwagon.

Ecco
02-28-2018, 04:14 PM
^Lol, why are you so insistent that SMS had a presence in the US? I didn't read the whole thread, so did I miss something about why you're insisting this, from another country? :daze:

(Also, just wondering, what country are you in?)

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-28-2018, 04:19 PM
The Sega Master System had virtually no presence in the US and I've already explained why. There seems to be some strange argument going on that perhaps it did...when it didn't. The Master System was known and loved in Europe and Australia. In the US all anybody knew of was the NES and it took the Genesis to change that.

Yharnamresident
02-28-2018, 04:41 PM
Well said and isn't that just the trouble, so many of the SEGA Mega Drive die hards weren't even born when the 1st came out and only see to LOVE it because it sold well, all other SEGA system they don't care about becasue they sold like crap.. I also tire of these so-called gaming historians with their huge Ebay collection in the background, talking utter nonsense on various Youtube channels jumping on the retro bandwagon.

Why are you talking shit about a guy you barely know. Adam Koralik is 31, thats well within the age of people who played Genesis in its prime. He actually debated between getting a 32X and a PS1 in 1995.



(Also, just wondering, what country are you in?)He lives in the Kingdom thats United


The Sega Master System had virtually no presence in the US and I've already explained why. There seems to be some strange argument going on that perhaps it did...when it didn't. The Master System was known and loved in Europe and Australia. In the US all anybody knew of was the NES and it took the Genesis to change that.These guys are butthurt about that fact for some reason, but its true. The Master System was not a success in North America, with 2 million consoles sold. How much did the NES sell in North America? 34 million.

If you grew up in North America, then 8-bit = NES. I've never seen a 7800 in my life, I've never even seen a Master System in my life, although I was shocked to see my local pawn shop has 4-5 Master System games.

Ecco
02-28-2018, 05:47 PM
Well SMS was apparently more successful in the UK, Europe etc. so maybe he just assumes that it must have been similar in the US? At this point I'm just curious why he keeps insisting it had a presence here lol.

Leynos
02-28-2018, 05:52 PM
I've never even seen a Master System in my life,

I can fix that. A SEGA Master System in the US playing some robot game on a real SMS controller. I like how SMS carts fit so well and print local video game store business cards.

https://i.imgur.com/IGmE2XM.jpg

IrishNinja
02-28-2018, 09:50 PM
quotes are all borked for me but here goes, since we're continuing this pedantry


They did. You said so yourself just 5 hours ago:

right, you missed where i said that was like the one newer title they'd had in ages
i looked high & low for stuff like ultima, king's quest etc, never saw them or any of the many genesis ports/conversions that came later. the system was effectively dead long before that, and again, i live in a major city


The print reviews were "here & there" because Master System software was at a trickle. The magazines covered what games were coming out.
Sure there were tons of people that didn't know the system existed. But any serious gamer of the day certainly knew it existed (or even anyone who was conscious and went to a Toys R Us videogame aisle in the late 80s.)

you're kidding yourself if you thought most gaming mags weren't a niche at that point in time.
nevermind that the lynx, 3DO, jaguar, CD-I etc got "covered" by some mags, that doesn't change the fact the vast majority of folks didn't notice those systems coming or going.


I'm not even sure what you guys are debating here. Yes, if you were a serious gamer who read all the magazines of the day and were in the loop as to which companies were doing what in the US then yes, you would have been aware of the Master System when it launched. However, if you were a casual gamer who relied on word of mouth from friends and relatives to keep you up to date then no, you probably would not have been aware at all of the console's existence.


exactly


Everyone who bought a Genesis in the first couple yeas got advertisements for the Power Base convertor and Master System games. How is it barely existent and unknown.
None of the 100s of thousands of people who bought the Genesis in the first year or two ever looked at the back of the box?

an advertisement doesn't magically put software back on the shelves, nevermind the fact that by the time most folks bought a genesis (sonic bundle) there was likely no mention of the SMS - ill check my box tonight though


Well SMS was apparently more successful in the UK, Europe etc. so maybe he just assumes that it must have been similar in the US? At this point I'm just curious why he keeps insisting it had a presence here lol.

oh hell yeah, ive seen their mags! ive also heard you could rent SMS games out there, damn that must've been crazy to see. similarly, i was in australia years back and heard/saw like stories, ditto with my time in south america. the US effectively didn't know sega existed till the genesis.

Prince Talmit
02-28-2018, 10:33 PM
You guys are fucking retards.

Phantasy Star
Wonder Boy III
Power Base Converter
early Genesis promo offers for free Master System games

You want to address those Master System issues and how they had no presence and didn't exist?


The Sega Master System had virtually no presence in the US and I've already explained why. There seems to be some strange argument going on that perhaps it did...when it didn't. The Master System was known and loved in Europe and Australia. In the US all anybody knew of was the NES and it took the Genesis to change that.
Is there an argument?
I've stated a number of facts and asked a number of questions.
Do you dispute that there were nationally televised advertisements for the Master System?
Do you dispute that the Power Base Converter was highlighted directly on the Genesis box?
Do you dispute that Master System games were dsiplayed on flip cards right along side Genesis games at ToysR Us stores?
How did Phantasy Star become a cult classic if the console it was on was non-existent in stores and homes? And Wonder Boy III?

Anyhow being from the from the UK, how did you come to be an expert on the status of the Master System in the US? ..from reading "games journalism"?


^Lol, why are you so insistent that SMS had a presence in the US
What are you reading? Did someone insist it had a presence? It existed, was stocked in stores, and was advertised, that's all I've been saying. TeamAndomeda hasn't suggested anything more I don't think. However, a couple of you guys have insisted it virtually didn't exist or however you're phrasing it, and that isn't true.

Leynos
02-28-2018, 10:56 PM
You guys are fucking retards.

Phantasy Star
Wonder Boy III
Power Base Converter
early Genesis promo offers for free Master System games

You want to address those Master System issues and how they had no presence and didn't exist?


Is there an argument?
I've stated a number of facts and asked a number of questions.
Do you dispute that there were nationally televised advertisements for the Master System?
Do you dispute that the Power Base Converter was highlighted directly on the Genesis box?
Do you dispute that Master System games were dsiplayed on flip cards right along side Genesis games at ToysR Us stores?
How did Phantasy Star become a cult classic if the console it was on was non-existent in stores and homes? And Wonder Boy III?

Anyhow being from the from the UK, how did you come to be an expert on the status of the Master System in the US? ..from reading "games journalism"?


What are you reading? Did someone insist it had a presence? It existed, was stocked in stores, and was advertised, that's all I've been saying. TeamAndomeda hasn't suggested anything more I don't think. However, a couple of you guys have insisted it virtually didn't exist or however you're phrasing it, and that isn't true.


Flamebaiting and throwing insults. Reported and put on ignore. It's clear you are butthurt over facts and dont want to listen to anyone. Done with you.

Prince Talmit
02-28-2018, 11:09 PM
Flamebaiting and throwing insults. Reported and put on ignore. It's clear you are butthurt over facts and dont want to listen to anyone. Done with you.
Yeah I saw you're the type of person to use the phrase "butt hurt".
You never presented any facts, only your hyperbole that you think if fact

And Ecco and MDBowsley are infuriating retards, what with pretending there is an argument insisting the Master System was something that it was not.
Can either of them quote me or TA to show where this supposed argument is?

and this guy, another "butt hurter"

These guys are butthurt about that fact for some reason, but its true. The Master System was not a success in North America, with 2 million consoles sold. How much did the NES sell in North America? 34 million.
If you grew up in North America, then 8-bit = NES. I've never seen a 7800 in my life, I've never even seen a Master System in my life, although I was shocked to see my local pawn shop has 4-5 Master System games.
Everyone is in agreement that the Master System was not a success. Why are you now pretending that is the issue?


I'm really not exaggerating when I saw the Master System was as well known in the US as the Xavix Port. In KB Toys, Toys R Us, Sears and all the largest retailers at the time you never saw Master System anything. No games, no systems no accessories in sight. Those aren't facts kid.

You haven't been able to respond to what I've asked. Sure put me on ignore.

Leynos
02-28-2018, 11:28 PM
Since someone is on ignore it's easy to ignore the bullshit this topic has last few pages. I thought to look at these while the subject is about Dreamcast and DVD. I applaud SEGA for getting away from the horrid PAL/US Saturn cases and going standard CD Jewel case (but still sucks to replace for multi-disc games and the PAL ones are shit aside from the nice blue) I do wish SEGA went with the standard DVD case. Some of you may have seen these on eBay. Personally, think the clear case is best but the point is, would have been neat if this is how they looked.

https://i.imgur.com/Gkv6xOU.jpg

Yharnamresident
03-01-2018, 05:13 AM
Well SMS was apparently more successful in the UK, Europe etc. so maybe he just assumes that it must have been similar in the US? At this point I'm just curious why he keeps insisting it had a presence here lol.Sega dominated PAL land until the PS1


I can fix that. A SEGA Master System in the US playing some robot game on a real SMS controller. I like how SMS carts fit so well and print local video game store business cards.

https://i.imgur.com/IGmE2XM.jpgDid you purposely take a 4:3 picture? good effort



Anyhow being from the from the UK, how did you come to be an expert on the status of the Master System in the US? ..from reading "games journalism"?
We North Americans are agreeing with him. What he is saying is what we also believe to be the case


Flamebaiting and throwing insults. Reported and put on ignore. It's clear you are butthurt over facts and dont want to listen to anyone. Done with you.Yea the guy finally decided to get nasty. Even when Team Andromeda was trashing Adam Koralik, I tried my best to respond in a mature and civilized way


Since someone is on ignore it's easy to ignore the bullshit this topic has last few pages. I thought to look at these while the subject is about Dreamcast and DVD. I applaud SEGA for getting away from the horrid PAL/US Saturn cases and going standard CD Jewel case (but still sucks to replace for multi-disc games and the PAL ones are shit aside from the nice blue) I do wish SEGA went with the standard DVD case. Some of you may have seen these on eBay. Personally, think the clear case is best but the point is, would have been neat if this is how they looked.

https://i.imgur.com/Gkv6xOU.jpgThey look much more modern and 6th-gen oriented than the Dreamcast CD cases. And thats saying something, considering the box art is the exact same.

Team Andromeda
03-01-2018, 06:11 AM
Anyhow being from the from the UK, how did you come to be an expert on the status of the Master System in the US? ..from reading "games journalism"?

.

WE live inthe world of Google and Youtube and what they say goes, more so from so-called Retro gaming fans on YouTube. Of coruse the Master system had a presence in the USA, you also didn't need to holiday in the USA or read S-Mag in the Uk to know that . Most Master system Pal carts actually used their USA Packaging hence why we had CSK and the likes of SEGA customers Services 573 Forbes Blvd, San Francisco dispalyed on the back of Pal carts and if that wasn't a give away, even the Pal flyers would list the various Master system games coming out in 'Fall'. How American do you want it.

Team Andromeda
03-01-2018, 06:20 AM
. Even when Team Andromeda was trashing Adam Koralik, I tried my best to respond in a mature and civilized way


Hardly trashing, I just tire so-called fans going on YouTube with their eBay collection inthe Background. I give credit to HappyConsoleGammer, not only was he was of the 1st to do this (only he didn't need ebay it was his own) But just by the way he talks and recollects, You can tell he bought and played the games and systems he talked about, back in the day.
I wasn't a PC-Eng fan, it never came out in the UK but out of being into gaming back in the day and reading Mags like CVG one knew of various other gaming systems, even if they had a tiny presence or none at all in the UK, same for systems like Magnavox Odyssey or even add ons like the Famicom Disc Drive.

Thierry Henry
03-01-2018, 06:38 AM
I can fix that. A SEGA Master System in the US playing some robot game on a real SMS controller. I like how SMS carts fit so well and print local video game store business cards.

https://i.imgur.com/IGmE2XM.jpg


You've got to sell the pic in a way where what you're showing is a bit of a parody and kinda goofy, but at the same is actually functional. It keeps them guessing that what you've got there might indeed be real. :p



Sega Master System player,


https://i.imgur.com/OVwDc1i.jpg

Yharnamresident
03-01-2018, 10:32 AM
I will be moving on from SMS discussion.


Personally I think how Nintendo used clone formats for the GameCube, Wii, Wii U, was an ingenious way to avoid licensing fees. Although the MiniDVDs were a dumb decision, they were still better than GD-ROMs.

So this is ultimately what I think Sega should've done with the Dreamcast. A clone DVD format. It wouldn't have saved the Dreamcast, but helped it stay relevant until maybe 2004 in a situation where Sega had a lot of money.

Team Andromeda
03-01-2018, 12:34 PM
A clone DVD format. It wouldn't have saved the Dreamcast, but helped it stay relevant until maybe 2004 in a situation where Sega had a lot of money.

Hardly would have helped IMO. No DVD playback, not much more storage and huge more cost to develop and to put on the DC. It was not like the GameCube did well its self either . The PS was one of the easiest consoles to mod and play copy games and it never hurt that,what killed DC was little money in SEGA bank and too many people and 3rd parties simply waiting to spend their time and money on the PS2.
It never helped that Some of SEGA key titles were rushed out (Sega Rally II) or SOJ totally messed up the Japanese launch with not only a delay to both Sonic and Rally II and the hardware (by 2 weeks) but the cancellation of over 400,000 units because of issues with Power VR supply upsetting loads of Japanse punters and also retail too

It was just a mess from the start, SEGA America did wonders with the DC though

BonusKun
03-01-2018, 01:05 PM
Man I literally hadn't looked into this thread but I can see some serious heated discussion. I'll keep it simple. Keep the name calling off the board and I won't intervene. Also I partly have a dog in this race so let me tell you from my experience. The Sega Master System while it was out in the U.S. had little to no market presence compared to Nintendo at the time. This is a fact for me and many other people who lived in the U.S. during the 80s. Sure you might have seen one at a random Toys r Us store and whatnot but most of the advertising out there was for the NES. I knew of one guy who owned one years ago back then and I played Alex Kidd on the system.

I loved it and felt the quality of the games I played were better then the NES but yeah Nintendo had a huge cock-hold on the market at that time so the SMS was something most people were like, "Is this another Nintendo system?".

It sucked but back then before the internet existed, Sega was fighting a serious uphill battle.

OmegaMax
03-01-2018, 05:34 PM
Firstly I like the master system more so than nes,but nintendo clearly dominated north America.Why there is even a debate about this is silly.

Ecco
03-01-2018, 05:38 PM
Also I apologize for whatever heated discussion was perceived here. I think I joined the conversation too late to really understand what the big deal was. As for name-calling, I wasn't offended, and it was the same words that everyone called everyone in the 90's lol.

There was probably some misunderstanding over phrasing or something like that. I've been saying that SMS was practically nonexistent during its lifetime, although I did know one kid who had one... So I'd still call that practically nonexistent. The context is that NES was as common as TV's and VCR's, at the time. It was assumed that every kid went home and was playing Super Mario Bros.

Re: The titles that were cited as successful on SMS: I would have assumed they were successful from other countries, not the US.

The Genesis didn't even become a presence here until Sonic, and by that point, SMS wasn't being advertised with the Genesis.

Unfortunately I can't find a photo of the back of the Genesis box that I remember from back then. I bought my Genesis in '93 and the box had screenshots of Genesis and Sega CD games, not SMS games. I wish I could find the same box photo.

As for the actual topic of the thread, like I said a while ago, I think DVD-playing would have helped the DC greatly, if Sega had figured out how to include that. I bought my PS2 Slim just to be a cool DVD player, whereas if the DC also played DVD's, I would have preferred that, and I probably would have never bought a PS2 at all. :cool:

Leynos
03-01-2018, 06:37 PM
There were rumors that Dolphin would use a DVD drive and the thought Nintendo finally using a disc drive was a relief but also DVD!? I can watch movies and play Mario!? Of course, thaty didn't happen and we got a DVD player in 2001 so the novelty wore off already. I do think in 1999 it would not have worn off as fast for me.

IrishNinja
03-01-2018, 06:45 PM
yeah, i too had dreacmast stuff in DVD boxes for a while, went back to the jewel cases for accuracy though. there's great art for them & PSX ones like that if it's your thing though


Phantasy Star
Wonder Boy III
Power Base Converter
early Genesis promo offers for free Master System games

You want to address those Master System issues and how they had no presence and didn't exist?

you're naming the most popular games on a super niche system, and...the marketing plug very early on by sega to say "hey, you can also play these games most folks didn't buy" to establish...market relevance?
again: by '91 when sonic dropped & was soon bundled with the system, was there a lot of SMS or power base talk?


I've stated a number of facts and asked a number of questions.
Do you dispute that there were nationally televised advertisements for the Master System?

having grown up in that era & never seen one: yes?
i don't doubt YT might have something, but NES ads were between cartoons, weekends or weekdays. literally never saw a single sega thing until the GENESIS DOES ad


Do you dispute that the Power Base Converter was highlighted directly on the Genesis box?

this is such a strange argument. peripherals like the NES power pad, the max controller etc got small plugs on their boxes as well, doesn't mean they were widespread


Do you dispute that Master System games were dsiplayed on flip cards right along side Genesis games at ToysR Us stores?

a tiny section, which again was long gone by the time the genesis started going
there were literally 2 aisles - both sides - of NES games. SMS had a small section that got pushed to the end when the genny dropped, and then disappeared.


How did Phantasy Star become a cult classic if the console it was on was non-existent in stores and homes? And Wonder Boy III?

you're aware that cult classics can (and often do) occur on systems without a lot of sales, yeah? people knew bonk's adventure & such from turbo, and that sold like asscakes. snatcher still gets tons of love by people that, if they're aware of the sega-CD, it's as a punchline from AVGN or something.

again: mark cerny himself said sega enjoyed 4% marketshare at their peak here, and joked that the # was low enough to be "parents accidentally buying the wrong system."
yes, the SMS physically took up space for a few years in certain places. but if it was any less known by the masses, it'dve been the SG-1000.

Team Andromeda
03-01-2018, 07:50 PM
Firstly I like the master system more so than nes,but nintendo clearly dominated north America.Why there is even a debate about this is silly.

That doesnít mean people wouldnít have heard of other systems. The Neo Geo totally out sold by the Mega Drive in the UK, the main retail shops didnít even stock Neo Geo or where it had any TV advertisment , yet one would have heard of it . Philips CDi had less one 1% of the games market , yet some would have heard of it. No all granted, but gamers would have at least know about these system just by reading the gaming press Ect.

Leynos
03-01-2018, 08:03 PM
A had a friend with a TurboGrafx16 and we played Bonk on it. At school, my teacher brought a TG16 to class for us to play and I remember playing Vigilante. Like SMS it deserved better but NES just owned the market.

IrishNinja
03-01-2018, 08:32 PM
A had a friend with a TurboGrafx16 and we played Bonk on it. At school, my teacher brought a TG16 to class for us to play and I remember playing Vigilante. Like SMS it deserved better but NES just owned the market.

yeah, my neighbor got a used turbo & CD, i thought it was cool too but really, both companies looked at nintendo's marketshare and clearly just decided to put the bare minimum in marketing, haha

OmegaMax
03-01-2018, 08:36 PM
@ Team Andromeda
I did know about master system but every kid at school was talking about nintendo,I never heard any of them mention master system.So like most kids I wanted what the other kids were raving about,yes nintendo.Even in junior high school everyone had a nes,myself and one other teenager had a TurboGrafx-16 most others weren't aware of anything besides nes.That is the total dominance that nintendo had.


Just to add,I never seen one master system commercial back then,seen many nes commercials though.Anyone else never seen a master system commercial as a kid,besides IrishNinja and myself.

Leynos
03-01-2018, 08:58 PM
As much as PS4 is selling and PS2 and Wii sold. It was very clear 2 other systems were on the market and you had your fanboys in every camp. It's not even possible for a system to ever dominate the market like NES did in the US. It was more than sales. NES was gaming, NES was a movement and a culture. Going over to a friend with other friends to play NES was a massive deal. sleepovers in the 80s seemed like they only existed to play NES at night with a friend. It was more than just selling well, we were brainwashed and I bet every neighborhood had the one kid who had all the games while the rest of us got maybe 1-2 a year since they were 70-80 bucks. One kid in my neighborhood was named Louie. I knew all the kids in the neighborhood and this kid was friends with no one but friends with everyone..what do I mean? We all came over because he had 90 NES games in 1988. To us, that may as well been every NES game.

When Genesis and SNES came out no one went over to Louie's house (sad in retrospect yes) as SNES and Genesis were yes awesome with amazing visuals and sound plus fantastic games and many that captured us but in a different less dominant way. Still by that time you were either SNES or Genesis. We were divided. No longer united under the NES Umbrella corporation. There wasn't a zapper to show your friends the trick to getting all the ducks or a pad to cheat and slap your hands on it to win at track and field that every other owner had. You either liked attitude with Sonic or riding Yoshi with Mario and possibly the outsider with something else that was a rare oddity like an albino lion.


Real footage of someone discovering a kid has a console not NES in the 80s in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo

Team Andromeda
03-01-2018, 10:53 PM
@ Team Andromeda
I did know about master system but every kid at school was talking about nintendo,I never heard any of them mention master system.So like most kids I wanted what the other kids were raving about,yes nintendo.Even in junior high school everyone had a nes,myself and one other teenager had a TurboGrafx-16 most others weren't aware of anything besides nes.That is the total dominance that nintendo had.


No one is saying Nintendo were not doniminat, I mean they had like 90% of Japan, SEGA were nowhere even outsold horribly by NEC, but gamers in Japan would still have known of the MS. In my school all the talk was of the ZX Spectrum, but in various mags, one would read about the Apple II even if it was nowhere in sales in the UK.

People heard of the 3D0 in the USA right, even if itís sales werenít even in the half a million units inthe US, compared to the MS sales of nearly 2 million there , some would have heard of the CDi even As a kid I remember reading about Lazer Disc or Betamax even if in the UK at least, VHS was completely killing them both for sales.

j_factor
03-01-2018, 11:02 PM
No idea if it's still the case, but Phantasy Star and Wonder Boy III used to show up a lot on "all time top 100" type lists from EGM and the like. I don't have any examples handy but I'm pretty sure those articles didn't refer to them as games for this weird system you've probably never heard of.

The SMS was not a success in North America, but I don't think it was so obscure like some of you are making it out to be.

gamevet
03-01-2018, 11:03 PM
Man I literally hadn't looked into this thread but I can see some serious heated discussion. I'll keep it simple. Keep the name calling off the board and I won't intervene. Also I partly have a dog in this race so let me tell you from my experience. The Sega Master System while it was out in the U.S. had little to no market presence compared to Nintendo at the time. This is a fact for me and many other people who lived in the U.S. during the 80s. Sure you might have seen one at a random Toys r Us store and whatnot but most of the advertising out there was for the NES. I knew of one guy who owned one years ago back then and I played Alex Kidd on the system.

I loved it and felt the quality of the games I played were better then the NES but yeah Nintendo had a huge cock-hold on the market at that time so the SMS was something most people were like, "Is this another Nintendo system?".

It sucked but back then before the internet existed, Sega was fighting a serious uphill battle.

You'd walk into Block Buster and maybe see a half dozen Master System carts for rent covered in dust. Meanwhile, there would be 2 isle shelves full of NES games to rent.

Prince Talmit
03-02-2018, 12:47 AM
Master System games in Blockbuster rental stores would be considered "a presence", would it not?
The crux here was never about NES vs Master System, was it? It was about 2 or 3 guys saying no one knew it existed.

Leynos
03-02-2018, 01:39 AM
I have said we had a card to literally every store in the valley that rented movies. We rented movies by the truckload every week. None of them from the smaller stores to Blockbuster carried anything but NES until Genesis in the valley. Also, no one is not meant to be taken so literal to the letter. But it actually didn't exist to most kids of the era. If a website does not show up in Google search results it may as well not exist. The same thing was if you didn't see it in SEARS or Toys R us or in my case Lionel Playworld at the time it may as well not exist. Explaining this to non-US people seems to be like trying to drill a hole into a brick wall with a sewing needle. Game Gear wasn't wildly successful but it got a space in rental stores plus was in couple US films of the era. Game Gear had a fairly aggressive US commercial run. In typical SEGA fashion, you were stupid id you played Nintendo or um. slooooooooooow. Like the kid who kits himself in the head with a dead squirrel so he can see color on his Game Boy. I also remember the one with a guy playing his Genesis on a plane with a long extension cord. Game Gear may as well been the rebirth of SMS in America. I think price and Batt life killed it. In 1996 going into a Software etc and they had a tiny GG section. Games were really cheap. Saturn while few had it at least was in Toys R Us demo stations like Virtua Boy, N64, SNES, Genesis and PS1 all at once. Game Peddler my store of choice then sold Saturn stuff so people knew it existed but PS1 and N64 were just cheaper. I remember buying SNES stuff from Game Peddler in 1998 when I finally got a SNES and they carried retro stuff. Just no SMS. Some TG16.


These days in my local retro shops, everything is there. Even had a chance to play a Bally Astrocade and a Magnavox Odyssey. I don't think people outside the US realize how big and how much of a negative impact the crash of 83 was. It was the Stockmarket crash of 1929 for gaming.As mentioned before no store wanted to sell NES at first..video games were something to stay far far away from. NES only got into SEARS (Amazon of the era) with the help of Ruxbin and Nintendo did not market it as a video games machine. There isn't any more that can be said. You didn't live here. I also don't get why this fact offends some people. How can anyone be offended by this? is this why the masses shit on today's youth because they truly do act offended at everything? Yeah sure seems like it.

Ecco
03-02-2018, 03:15 AM
No one is saying Nintendo were not doniminat, I mean they had like 90% of Japan, SEGA were nowhere even outsold horribly by NEC, but gamers in Japan would still have known of the MS. In my school all the talk was of the ZX Spectrum, but in various mags, one would read about the Apple II even if it was nowhere in sales in the UK.

People heard of the 3D0 in the USA right, even if itís sales werenít even in the half a million units inthe US, compared to the MS sales of nearly 2 million there , some would have heard of the CDi even As a kid I remember reading about Lazer Disc or Betamax even if in the UK at least, VHS was completely killing them both for sales.

I'm basically concluding that people outside the US just don't understand the 80's and 90's in the US for videogames. No offense or whatever.

The other consoles mentioned (3DO and CDi) I remember reading about, but that is AFTER the NES era, when 16-bit etc. started to take off.

It went from NES only, to the 16-bit "console wars" of SNES vs. Genesis. That's the 80's and 90's experience in the US.

If it helps to explain, we also never heard of ZX Spectrum or Apple II. I seriously don't even know what they are right now lol (unless I Google-search them). I guess other countries did not experience the same monoculture of NES until the 16-bit era.

Like I said earlier, the Game Gear had the most popularity in the US, and it shows that practically no one knew the SMS existed, or else the Game Gear would not have been possible to host those same 8-bit games. The Game Gear games seemed new because nobody knew about SMS.

Leynos
03-02-2018, 04:06 AM
Well, I heard plenty of Apple II because they were everywhere in my schools. I played a lot of Oregon Trail on them.

Yharnamresident
03-02-2018, 05:57 AM
Hardly would have helped IMO. No DVD playback, not much more storage and huge more cost to develop and to put on the DC. It was not like the GameCube did well its self either .A ton more storage. A clone DVD could have 4.7 GBs vs 1.2 GB GD-ROM. Yea the GameCube didn't do very good, thats because they went with a clone MiniDVD instead of a normal DVD for some strange reason.

Even if Sega had the money to keep the system going past 2000, it wasn't gonna last because it had gimped storage space like the GameCube. It was a stopgap system.



People heard of the 3D0 in the USA right, even if itís sales werenít even in the half a million units inthe US, compared to the MS sales of nearly 2 million there , some would have heard of the CDi even As a kid I remember reading about Lazer Disc or Betamax even if in the UK at least, VHS was completely killing them both for sales.Well I think people in the US even heard about the Jaguar more than the SMS, and that thing bombed hard. The SMS suffered from poor marketing and poor sales, while some other systems only suffered from 1 of those factors. But that doesn't mean as many people were aware of the Jaguar as much as the PS1 or N64.


You'd walk into Block Buster and maybe see a half dozen Master System carts for rent covered in dust. Meanwhile, there would be 2 isle shelves full of NES games to rent.That reminds me of something. My local grocery store has a complete isle wall consisting of only Casa Mendosa tortillas because they are in such huge demand. They kinda got that NES monopoly with tortillas.


There isn't any more that can be said. You didn't live here. I also don't get why this fact offends some people. How can anyone be offended by this? is this why the masses shit on today's youth because they truly do act offended at everything? Yeah sure seems like it.And I don't get why they are offended. Nintendo use illegal practices to win. It wasn't fair and square.

We can keep dancing around the subject, but at the end of the day:

North American total sales:

NES: 34 million

SMS: 2 million

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-02-2018, 08:44 AM
I'm not from the US and yet I understand how the game scene was over there in the late 80's just fine. There pretty much was no Sega until the launch of the Genesis, and even then it took it a couple of years to find it's feet. I'm bored at work and the fact that this is still being debated in a thread about hypothetical Dreamcast DVD drives has given me a laugh, so thanks guys. :)

Team Andromeda
03-02-2018, 09:33 AM
A ton more storage. A clone DVD could have 4.7 GBs vs 1.2 GB GD-ROM. Yea the GameCube didn't do very good, thats because they went with a clone MiniDVD instead of a normal DVD for some strange reason.


Storage wasn't really an issue of the DC and its not like having DVD made the XBox sell up there with the PS2 or where is had games that weren't possible on the Cube.



North American total sales:

NES: 34 million

SMS: 2 million

Yes you can but I love the way you leave out systems like the Jaguar, CDi, 3DO even the Turbo Grafx, Neo Geo . You keep bangging on about sales and if a system doesn't sell then it isn't covered or people don't know of it . People heard of the MS-X even though it was never supported in the west, people would have heard of the Atari Lynx the Atari Falcon even if both systems were complety flops

Prince Talmit
03-02-2018, 09:39 AM
And I don't get why they are offended. Nintendo use illegal practices to win. It wasn't fair and square.

We can keep dancing around the subject, but at the end of the day:

North American total sales:

NES: 34 million

SMS: 2 million
How/where is anyone "offended?" Do you know what that word means?

Why are you dancing around the fact this isn't about Nintendo vs Sega?

Anyhow, 2mil sold, include friends, neighbors, and people who saw displays in stores and on TV and in print, but never purchased it.
So people did know the Master System existed?
That was what you guys were saying. THAT NO ONE KNEW IT EXISTED.
Not Master System was not successful.
Not Nintendo beat Sega.
Not Sega wasn't successful until Genesis.


I'm not from the US and yet I understand how the game scene was over there in the late 80's just fine. There until the launch of the Genesis

Clearly you don't know.
What is "pretty much was no Sega"?

Team Andromeda
03-02-2018, 09:42 AM
I'm basically concluding that people outside the US just don't understand the 80's and 90's in the US for videogames. No offense or whatever.
.

Was gaming coverage in the USA so bad that if a system didn't sell or wasn't supported by 3rd parties you never heard of it. You didn't know what the Neo Geo AES system was , didn't know of systems like the Atari Lynx,The MS-X format the Philips CDi or what the PC Eng was. I highly doubt it
You can try and insult people but you obviously don't know what gaming was like inthe UK. The Crash never happened (buy hey we did read about it) and Nintendo NES did about as well in the UK as the MS in the USA. Nintendo NES couldn't even beat Atari ST for sales, never mind systems like the Zx Spectrum and Master System in Blighty, but the gaming press in the UK covered the NES and other systems like PC Eng, MS-X, Neo Geo, FM Towns hell some even covered the Mac which was nowhere for sales and horrible outclassed for support by PC Dos.

There again the UK has always been the best for gaming journalism and likes to cover what happens in the world.

Team Andromeda
03-02-2018, 09:48 AM
Well, I heard plenty of Apple II because they were everywhere in my schools. I played a lot of Oregon Trail on them.

Remind what were the sales of the Apple II in the USA, compared to the Master System USA or home computers like the C64 in the USA.

BonusKun
03-02-2018, 10:13 AM
Storage wasn't really an issue of the DC and its not like having DVD made the XBox sell up there with the PS2 or where is had games that weren't possible on the Cube.



Yes you can but I love the way you leave out systems like the Jaguar, CDi, 3DO even the Turbo Grafx, Neo Geo . You keep bangging on about sales and if a system doesn't sell then it isn't covered or people don't know of it . People heard of the MS-X even though it was never supported in the west, people would have heard of the Atari Lynx the Atari Falcon even if both systems were complety flops

Let's be a little real about this. The Jag came way later. The 3DO was a system nobody really knew about other then that insane price tag and the Neo*Geo seriously was a fortune to buy for. The Turbo Graphic system was also pretty uncommon as well. In comparison, Nintendo and Sega during those times were the most well known systems people knew about who weren't gamers. Mom and Dad only really knew of those two because that's all everyone even wanted.

The other systems were for people who were more in the know even if EGM, Gamefan and GamePro covered them slightly.

bultje112
03-02-2018, 11:05 AM
You'd walk into Block Buster and maybe see a half dozen Master System carts for rent covered in dust. Meanwhile, there would be 2 isle shelves full of NES games to rent.

maybe this was also a regional thing in the us? this often seems very undervalued. for instance in the southern dutch province of brabant nintendo destroyed sega, yet everywhere else in the netherlands it was sega.

Yharnamresident
03-02-2018, 11:23 AM
Storage wasn't really an issue of the DC and its not like having DVD made the XBox sell up there with the PS2 or where is had games that weren't possible on the Cube.
We are talking about long term sustainability. Most PS2 games came out on CDs until 2001, but that doesn't mean the PS2 should've used a CD drive since games weren't taking advantage of DVD storage yet.

And let me tell you. Imagine if the Xbox also used MiniDVDs, would it have sold as much as it did? of course not. 3rd party developers would be belly-aching about having to compress audio, cut scenes, cutting out content, using 2 discs, like they did with GameCube ports.


How/where is anyone "offended?" Do you know what that word means?Well you were calling us retards a couple pages ago because we didn't agree with you.



So people did know the Master System existed?
That was what you guys were saying. THAT NO ONE KNEW IT EXISTED.
Not Master System was not successful.
Not Nintendo beat Sega.
Not Sega wasn't successful until Genesis.
They coincide with each other. Imagine if the Master System sold as much as the Genesis in North America. 20 Million units. Would there have been more people aware that the Master System existed? absolutely.

Every good-selling console is well known, back in the day, and today. The only exception is the Atari 2600, but thats because that generation was phased out.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-02-2018, 11:26 AM
How/where is anyone "offended?" Do you know what that word means?

Why are you dancing around the fact this isn't about Nintendo vs Sega?

Anyhow, 2mil sold, include friends, neighbors, and people who saw displays in stores and on TV and in print, but never purchased it.
So people did know the Master System existed?
That was what you guys were saying. THAT NO ONE KNEW IT EXISTED.
Not Master System was not successful.
Not Nintendo beat Sega.
Not Sega wasn't successful until Genesis.



Clearly you don't know.
What is "pretty much was no Sega"?

Jesus, is this a thread for people suffering from attention deficit disorder? There is nothing factually wrong with my statement of "There was pretty much no Sega (in the US) until the Genesis." Yes, I know that the Master System existed and was physically sitting on store shelves but it was not a factor and certainly hardly featured even as a blip on either Nintendo's or consumer's radars. The very poor sales of the Master System in the US (certainly in relation to the size of the market) when compared to other regions, specifically Europe and Australia, proves this!

OmegaMax
03-02-2018, 11:41 AM
The very poor sales of the Master System in the US (certainly in relation to the size of the market) when compared to other regions, specifically Europe and Australia, proves this!

This sums up what the rest of us are saying,it seems their point is if a console was released it had a presence which majority of us disagree with.If I use that point of view than the Apple Pippin"sold 42,000" also had a presence.

Team Andromeda
03-02-2018, 11:42 AM
Let's be a little real about this.

The Turbo Grafx came out in the 80s so did the MS-X so did a host of systems that either was not brought to the USA or Europe or were flops. The Neo Geo had next to no 3rd party support , it had next to no TV adverts and was even back then mostly mail order next to no main retail shops sold Neo Geo games Yet most would have heard of this super powerful system. The Lynx was a flop, so was the TurboExpress, people in the USA didn't know about them . The 3D0 couldn't even reach half the number of the Master systems sales in the US, but I bet most had head of it in some form, even inthe UK mags like EDGE did a feature on the system in its very 1st issue, we then had ITV bad influence cover systems like the FM Towns and even the Atari Falcon (a system that was a complete flop)

You going to make out that Gaming press coverage was so bad in the USA and that gamers in the USA were so ignorant, that unless it was the NES, they hadn't a clue of other gaming systems or Nintendo rivals and that only changed when we got Yahoo and Youtube ?. I just don't buy it at all, Getting killed in sales is slightly different to not actually wanting to buy the product or thinking its no good compared to the NES and I knowthe game press in the USA was good, I loved GameFan and that ranks as one of the best gaming mags ever and EMG was decent too.

BonusKun
03-02-2018, 01:40 PM
The Turbo Grafx came out in the 80s so did the MS-X so did a host of systems that either was not brought to the USA or Europe or were flops. The Neo Geo had next to no 3rd party support , it had next to no TV adverts and was even back then mostly mail order next to no main retail shops sold Neo Geo games Yet most would have heard of this super powerful system. The Lynx was a flop, so was the TurboExpress, people in the USA didn't know about them . The 3D0 couldn't even reach half the number of the Master systems sales in the US, but I bet most had head of it in some form, even inthe UK mags like EDGE did a feature on the system in its very 1st issue, we then had ITV bad influence cover systems like the FM Towns and even the Atari Falcon (a system that was a complete flop)

You going to make out that Gaming press coverage was so bad in the USA and that gamers in the USA were so ignorant, that unless it was the NES, they hadn't a clue of other gaming systems or Nintendo rivals and that only changed when we got Yahoo and Youtube ?. I just don't buy it at all, Getting killed in sales is slightly different to not actually wanting to buy the product or thinking its no good compared to the NES and I knowthe game press in the USA was good, I loved GameFan and that ranks as one of the best gaming mags ever and EMG was decent too.

Barring all of this my man. It doesn't change the fact that the Sega Master System was a ninch system compared to the Nintendo Entertainment System in the United States. Nothing you say can makes this any different from the truth. You can say whatever X-system was out there but I bet you dimes to dollars that your everyday joe consumer had no fucking clue about anything other then Nintendo.

j_factor
03-02-2018, 01:52 PM
This whole argument is a bit silly but... I think 2 million is an awfully high number for a product that people supposedly never heard of. I don't know why you'd conclude people were totally unaware of it based on that number. Do you think that the Master System was so great that if only more people had feasted their eyes on it, sales would have been exponentially better?

Exposure doesn't equal sales. I mean yeah there's a correlation but it's not a straight line. And even then, the sales weren't that bad. When I think of game systems that most people never heard of, I think of oddities like the Commodore CDTV, Arcadia 2001, and Bandai Pippin that sold in the 5-figure range. The Pippin reportedly sold 42k worldwide; if half were in the US that's 1% of what the SMS sold. The Pippin has a very limited number of releases compared to the SMS, and it was on the market for like a year compared to 5 years for the SMS. You don't see a single Pippin-related item at used game stores that have a section of SMS games. See all these differences? That's what a system that people never heard of looks like. SMS doesn't fit that profile.

And anyway why did they keep releasing SMS games after the Genesis was out? Why didn't they discontinue the SMS immediately when the Genesis launched? Why did they release the Master System II in the US at all? Why keep around a thing if no one even knew of it?

I bet Valve would love it if they could sell 2 million Steam Machines.

Leynos
03-02-2018, 02:32 PM
^ Vita still has new games coming out in the west despite most retailers not carrying the system anymore. So a poor market system can still get games. SEGA still sold Dreamcast game in Japan a few years after it was discontinued and in the US released NHL 2k in 2002. A full year after they stopped selling them. I also believe up until maybe 8-9 years ago SEGA still sold GD-Roms

BonusKun
03-02-2018, 05:34 PM
This whole argument is a bit silly but... I think 2 million is an awfully high number for a product that people supposedly never heard of. I don't know why you'd conclude people were totally unaware of it based on that number. Do you think that the Master System was so great that if only more people had feasted their eyes on it, sales would have been exponentially better?

Again, Nobody is saying that nobody ever heard of it. It's being said that while the system was known to some people, It was a drop in the bucket compared to the beast that Nintendo was. 2 million units really isn't all that much in the United States compared to the amount of NES systems Nintendo pumped out in that time frame.

Almost all the kids were Nintendo kids growing up because it was everywhere. TV, Radio, Fuck even Cereal. Sega wasn't that well known at the time and those people who knew of it back then only knew that Nintendo was the best because your average joe who didn't care about Videogames for the most part instead of calling it a game system called it "Nintendo" as a general term for a video game systems.

It sucks but Sega just didn't make much of a dent in the market when most people and I'll repeat it again most people had no clue what a Sega was until the Genesis or Sonic for that matter.

Also keep in mind that some people might get the wrong idea but I love the Sega Master System. I really think it was a better overall piece of hardware compared to the NES but there isn't much that can be said when Nintendo strong armed 3rd party devs into making games for their system only. Of course that kind of shit won't fly in today's market thankfully.

Leynos
03-02-2018, 06:06 PM
There was also the Mario and Zelda cartoons in the 80s. Much like how Star Wars is branded on every type of thing in existence these days as merchandise so was Mario back then. Toys,lunch boxes,towels,pins,cereal,soda,hats,shoes,pants,soc ks,watches,Tiger Electronics,stickers,backpacks,valentine cards,candy,trapper keepers,pencils,trash bins,skateboards,bikes,trading cards (in the 80s everything popular had a trading card pack) and so much more. We are used to it now but back then it was a phenomenon. In 1990 in the US Mario was more popular than Mickey Mouse.

I should also Mention The Wizard starring Fred Savage who was in everything at the time and pretty popular child actor from Princess Bride to Wonder years starred in a 90-minute movie ripping off Rain Man and advertising the NES. Released in theaters.

Ecco
03-02-2018, 07:46 PM
This thread made me wonder: Did the SMS have a regional theme in the US, like did it receive ads only in certain cities, or something like that? I legit don't remember a single TV commercial for SMS, while I clearly remember commercials for Mario 2 and 3, then later, ads for SNES and Genesis.

Prior to 16-bit era, I also don't think that gaming magazines really took off (AFAIK); Kids were reading Nintendo Power, until 16-bit years had new independent magazines that covered different systems (so I read about CDi, 3DO, Neo Geo, etc., even though I never read about SMS or saw ads for it).

I also don't know all the different systems that were listed as examples of obscure systems that we must have heard about lol. Although I'm glad someone mentioned Oregon Trail, because I also loved it in school, I just didn't know the thing was an Apple II.

I've noticed that non-US members have mentioned different computer systems over the years: Were computers more common or something, before they caught on here?

BonusKun
03-02-2018, 07:48 PM
This thread made me wonder: Did the SMS have a regional theme in the US, like did it receive ads only in certain cities, or something like that? I legit don't remember a single TV commercial for SMS, while I clearly remember commercials for Mario 2 and 3, then later, ads for SNES and Genesis.

Prior to 16-bit era, I also don't think that gaming magazines really took off (AFAIK); Kids were reading Nintendo Power, until 16-bit years had new independent magazines that covered different systems (so I read about CDi, 3DO, Neo Geo, etc., even though I never read about SMS or saw ads for it).

I also don't know all the different systems that were listed as examples of obscure systems that we must have heard about lol. Although I'm glad someone mentioned Oregon Trail, because I also loved it in school, I just didn't know the thing was an Apple II.

I've noticed that non-US members have mentioned different computer systems over the years: Were computers more common or something, before they caught on here?

I remember playing games on an old IBM PC and of course an Apple II also. They were out there of course but computers were so stigmatized as a "nerd" only thing back then so it wasn't cool to be a PC owner but hell I loved my Commodore 64 when I was a kid.

Leynos
03-02-2018, 08:13 PM
Computers were also insanely expensive back then. On a lower end $2000-4000. That's insane. I guess that's why Atari and some others advertised some of their systems as computers as they were far less money but by no means cheap. 500 bucks or so in early 80s money and really didn't do a whole lot outside of gaming. The other issue was they were not very flexible back then like computers are now. It was kinda like how people replace their phones every couple years. The difference is for PCs of the era that may have been more out of necessity rather than the luxury. I think that is one reason Apple II stuck around so long in schools at least for us. My district always had money to bring in newer computers in the schools but always at least 1 class with an Apple II still around as they were old and cheap plus filled a quota. I think by the mid 90s PCs were more affordable and flexible you could just keep it for about 5 or so years.Unlike now the PC gaming world and the console gaming world were different dimensions. 80s PC gaming may as well been the indie game playground Steam or a digital console services around today where consoles of the era had the larger publishers releasing games or at least a company that had an office space rented rather than a dude or kid programming his first game and selling it at a local PC shop in a plastic bag with a dot matrix printed instructions.(this was a real common thing btw)

Blades
03-03-2018, 07:48 AM
^I've always wondered about this. During the in-between era (1981-1991), what kind of people used computers in their home and for what? Games? Schoolwork?

There's a series of '80s commercials on Youtube starring Alan Alda from M*A*S*H selling Atari and IBM computers, so they were definitely aimed at normal people.

My understanding is that during the '70s average computers were only for people dedicated to them and usually running in academic environments, and of course I remember from the late '90s computers being ubiquitous and trendy (iMac etc.).

Team Andromeda
03-03-2018, 10:06 AM
Again, Nobody is saying that nobody ever heard of it. It's being said that while the system was known to some people, It was a drop in the bucket compared to the beast that Nintendo was..

Some were, There was way more obscure consoles that the Master system and sold nothing like its numbers in the USA, not lest the likes of the Neo or Turboduo. Also this kids growing up could be used today, never mind back then. Most kids even back in SEGA heyday wouldn't have the 1st clue on key people like Yuji Naka or various console systems, that not to say they didn't have a presence or weren't covered. I don't think the Fm Towns Marty sold a 100,000 units the 3DO outsold in Japan, but most gamers would have known of the system. Hell I remember EDGE mag covering the THX system in Taiwan (using the Flair chipset) and Bandai Playdia console. Quite a lot knew of the Super Grax a system on sale for less than a year, sold like crap and only had 5 games.

Yharnamresident
03-03-2018, 10:18 AM
Also keep in mind that some people might get the wrong idea but I love the Sega Master System. I really think it was a better overall piece of hardware compared to the NES but there isn't much that can be said when Nintendo strong armed 3rd party devs into making games for their system only. Of course that kind of shit won't fly in today's market thankfully.I heard Nintendo also intimidated retailers from carrying rival systems.

2 million consoles spread across a continent with 350 million people(I think in the 80s) was not a lot of sales.



I also don't know all the different systems that were listed as examples of obscure systems that we must have heard about lol. Although I'm glad someone mentioned Oregon Trail, because I also loved it in school, I just didn't know the thing was an Apple II.
Yea I played Oregon Trail while growing up also, but that was on Windows 98.


The first time I heard of the Neo Geo, FM Towns Marty, SuperGrafx, was watching Game Sack.

Team Andromeda
03-03-2018, 12:02 PM
I heard Nintendo also intimidated retailers from carrying rival systems.

2 million consoles spread across a continent with 350 million people(I think in the 80s) was not a lot of sales.



How retailers carried the Neo Geo in the USA, how many sales did the Neo Geo have in the USA and repeat that for TurboGraf, Atari Lynx, VirtualBoy, Pipin, CD-i , Laser Active, Game.Com and so many most systems that sold like utter crap.
.,

BonusKun
03-03-2018, 12:48 PM
Some were,

My man, They all were nothing compared to Nintendo at that time. Pricing, Marketing and overall sales made it hard as hell to compete with Nintendo having such a huge market share.


How retailers carried the Neo Geo in the USA, how many sales did the Neo Geo have in the USA and repeat that for TurboGraf, Atari Lynx, VirtualBoy, Pipin, CD-i , Laser Active, Game.Com and so many most systems that sold like utter crap.
.,

I think he's referring to the time Nintendo actually bullied some retailers over the whole Game Genie mess. During the time that thing was new, Nintendo was trying hard to sue Galoob at the time and they did threaten retailers by telling them they wouldn't ship them anymore systems and games if they carried game genies.

Let's be honest about some of what you're saying. Nintendo wasn't scared of SNK taking a piece of their market. That thing was at the time a fortune. Also you should stop bringing up systems from later years. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand of the time period we're talking about about sir.

Prince Talmit
03-03-2018, 01:42 PM
Again, Nobody is saying that nobody ever heard of it. It's being said that while the system was known to some people, It was a drop in the bucket compared to the beast that Nintendo was. 2 million units really isn't all that much in the United States compared to the amount of NES systems Nintendo pumped out in that time frame.

That's not what was being said.
As has already been pointed out twice, this started with two or three dudes saying Master System "was barely existent in the U.S." or that "not exaggerating when I say the Master System was as well known in the US as the Xavix Port".
They changed their argument once they saw how full of shit they were.
Why are YOU continuing on with the Nintendo comparison, shouldn't a mod have a better grasps and critical thinking skills over what the discussion was about?

Also, why don't you be a good mod and cut and transfer all these Master sYstem posts to a new thread in the appropriate forum?

Prince Talmit
03-03-2018, 01:56 PM
Jesus, is this a thread for people suffering from attention deficit disorder? There is nothing factually wrong with my statement of "There was pretty much no Sega (in the US) until the Genesis." Yes, I know that the Master System existed and was physically sitting on store shelves but it was not a factor and certainly hardly featured even as a blip on either Nintendo's or consumer's radars. The very poor sales of the Master System in the US (certainly in relation to the size of the market) when compared to other regions, specifically Europe and Australia, proves this!
ADHD? Is that why you can't grasp what was being written?

Your statement "There was pretty much no Sega (in the US) until the Genesis." isn't a fact, it is an opinion.
You have that essentially meaningless undefined "pretty much" in your statement, so who is to judge the veracity of such a nebulous statement?
What is a FACT is that Sega games were very well regarded (including national print advertisements) for Atari and Coleco consoles. Sega arcade games of the mid-80's were the hottest properties: Congo Bongo, Zaxxon, Space Harrier, Out Run, Galaxy Force, After Burner, Hang On... but somehow there was "pretty much no Sega" because the NES was wildly successful? Oh ok.

OmegaMax
03-03-2018, 01:56 PM
Why are YOU continuing on with the Nintendo comparison, shouldn't a mod have a better grasps and critical thinking skills over what the discussion was about?
Also, why don't you be a good mod and cut and transfer all these Master sYstem posts to a new thread in the appropriate forum?

Man,you think telling a mod he should have a better grasp and better thinking skills and then tell him how he should do his job is going to go over well?All because you disagree with the majority in this thread.

Prince Talmit
03-03-2018, 01:57 PM
Man,you think telling a mod he should have a better grasp and better thinking skills and then tell him how he should do his job is going to go over well?All because you disagree with the majority in this thread.
What? A moderator is above criticism?
Telling him how to do his job? It's a suggestion, it just seems like the responsible thing to do, you know moderate the discussion - keep the Dreamcast DVD one on topic and place the SMS topic where it belongs. You know, instead of further contributing to and encouraging the thread derailment. You disagree?

And as far as "disagreeing"... Right, because that is the era we're in: the majority opinion over-rides reality.

Prince Talmit
03-03-2018, 02:02 PM
Here you all go yet again,
this was all that was needed to be said, and right in line with what I was saying.
I'm blown away at how you revisionists are so hell bent on creating this new narrative that the Master System was not known of.

This whole argument is a bit silly but... I think 2 million is an awfully high number for a product that people supposedly never heard of. I don't know why you'd conclude people were totally unaware of it based on that number. Do you think that the Master System was so great that if only more people had feasted their eyes on it, sales would have been exponentially better?

Exposure doesn't equal sales. I mean yeah there's a correlation but it's not a straight line. And even then, the sales weren't that bad. When I think of game systems that most people never heard of, I think of oddities like the Commodore CDTV, Arcadia 2001, and Bandai Pippin that sold in the 5-figure range. The Pippin reportedly sold 42k worldwide; if half were in the US that's 1% of what the SMS sold. The Pippin has a very limited number of releases compared to the SMS, and it was on the market for like a year compared to 5 years for the SMS. You don't see a single Pippin-related item at used game stores that have a section of SMS games. See all these differences? That's what a system that people never heard of looks like. SMS doesn't fit that profile.

And anyway why did they keep releasing SMS games after the Genesis was out? Why didn't they discontinue the SMS immediately when the Genesis launched? Why did they release the Master System II in the US at all? Why keep around a thing if no one even knew of it?

I bet Valve would love it if they could sell 2 million Steam Machines.

gamevet
03-03-2018, 02:10 PM
Computers were also insanely expensive back then. On a lower end $2000-4000. That's insane. I guess that's why Atari and some others advertised some of their systems as computers as they were far less money but by no means cheap. 500 bucks or so in early 80s money and really didn't do a whole lot outside of gaming. The other issue was they were not very flexible back then like computers are now. It was kinda like how people replace their phones every couple years. The difference is for PCs of the era that may have been more out of necessity rather than the luxury. I think that is one reason Apple II stuck around so long in schools at least for us. My district always had money to bring in newer computers in the schools but always at least 1 class with an Apple II still around as they were old and cheap plus filled a quota. I think by the mid 90s PCs were more affordable and flexible you could just keep it for about 5 or so years.Unlike now the PC gaming world and the console gaming world were different dimensions. 80s PC gaming may as well been the indie game playground Steam or a digital console services around today where consoles of the era had the larger publishers releasing games or at least a company that had an office space rented rather than a dude or kid programming his first game and selling it at a local PC shop in a plastic bag with a dot matrix printed instructions.(this was a real common thing btw)

All of my friends had Commodore 64 or Apple II computers. I used my C64 for more than gaming when I was taking computer lit in high school and when I had to do basic when I was going to school for electronics. And yes, we had the Apple Vs Commodore discussions in school.

I gamed only on the C64 from 1984 to @1989, when I finally got an Amiga 500 and the NES.

The reasons you saw the Apple II in your school was because Apple cut a deal to provide more affordable computers for education. One of my teachers got her sons an Apple II for their home through that program.

Leynos
03-03-2018, 02:33 PM
Nintendo bullied developers and threatened them if they made games for any competitor. Also limited them how many games a year they could release on NES so developers made up fake names to get around it' Many might remember the Ultra label that Konami used. Not like developers could really refuse Nintendo, it was selling so well and dominated so much it was either NES or on something with less than 5% of the market.

sull56ivan2010
03-03-2018, 02:39 PM
What? A moderator is above criticism?
Telling him how to do his job? It's a suggestion, it just seems like the responsible thing to do, you know moderate the discussion - keep the Dreamcast DVD one on topic and place the SMS topic where it belongs. You know, instead of further contributing to and encouraging the thread derailment. You disagree?

And as far as "disagreeing"... Right, because that is the era we're in: the majority opinion over-rides reality.

No, but you're being very rude and aggressive towards him. Master System wasn't known in the US. 2 million is not a good number from 1986 through 91. Unless you're European, it was not a seller in the US and even Japan.

Also Nintendo was Sega's biggest competitor, even if it didn't mean much back then. You're acting like everyone knew about the Master System back then.

OmegaMax
03-03-2018, 03:30 PM
And as far as "disagreeing"... Right, because that is the era we're in: the majority opinion over-rides reality.

That does indeed happen on some subjects.

BonusKun
03-03-2018, 04:37 PM
That's not what was being said.
As has already been pointed out twice, this started with two or three dudes saying Master System "was barely existent in the U.S."

Well I knew that but overall he's not wrong. The SMS only really had 2 million units total my man. in a country at the time with almost 400 million people 2 million barely scratches the surface. :(


P.S. I don't care if we have a legit discussion about our opposing viewpoints. Just keep it civil without the smartass remarks and I'll pretend to not be a moderator. Deal?



P.P.S. Just let me be frank. I don't give a rat's ass if you're rude to me. My feelings arn't fragile enough to worry about what you're saying to me. Just try and be a bit more polite with people instead of coming off as a dick and we'll be cool. If I feel I need to adjust this thread then that's my choice to make and not yours.

Leynos
03-03-2018, 04:43 PM
The US had around 250 or so million people in the 80s I believe.

BonusKun
03-03-2018, 04:48 PM
The US had around 250 or so million people in the 80s I believe.

Was it? I could have sworn it was more but hey I guess not everyone was screwing everyone!

My Bad!

gamevet
03-03-2018, 05:03 PM
It was between 225 and 250 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States



Nintendo bullied developers and threatened them if they made games for any competitor. Also limited them how many games a year they could release on NES so developers made up fake names to get around it' Many might remember the Ultra label that Konami used. Not like developers could really refuse Nintendo, it was selling so well and dominated so much it was either NES or on something with less than 5% of the market.

That was in place since day one, to prevent the flooding of the market. Nintendo had to make that promise and several others to get retail to carry their console in North America. Yeah, the other stuff about not publishing on other hardware and threatening retail happened after they took over the market. The NES really didn't catch on fire until the holiday season of 1987. Toys R Us was still carrying and advertising 8-bit computers as their lead videogame platform before the NES gained ground.

BonusKun
03-03-2018, 05:13 PM
It was between 225 and 250 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States




That was in place since day one, to prevent the flooding of the market. Nintendo had to make that promise and several others to get retail to carry their console in North America. Yeah, the other stuff about not publishing on other hardware and threatening retail happened after they took over the market. The NES really didn't catch on fire until the holiday season of 1987. Toys R Us was still carrying and advertising 8-bit computers as their lead videogame platform before the NES gained ground.


Yeah that sounds on point from what I remember during the 80s.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-03-2018, 05:51 PM
ADHD? Is that why you can't grasp what was being written?

Your statement "There was pretty much no Sega (in the US) until the Genesis." isn't a fact, it is an opinion.
You have that essentially meaningless undefined "pretty much" in your statement, so who is to judge the veracity of such a nebulous statement?
What is a FACT is that Sega games were very well regarded (including national print advertisements) for Atari and Coleco consoles. Sega arcade games of the mid-80's were the hottest properties: Congo Bongo, Zaxxon, Space Harrier, Out Run, Galaxy Force, After Burner, Hang On... but somehow there was "pretty much no Sega" because the NES was wildly successful? Oh ok.

Talk about moving the goalposts... So now we're talking about Sega's presence in 1980's America in general and not just the Master System and how poorly it fared on the US market?! Right, well I wish you'd have given me a heads up that you were about to change the subject in advance. Yes, Sega had a big presence in the ARCADE and, in fact, were known for making some of the best ARCADE games around, but I thought we were discussing the Master System which was a HOME GAMES CONSOLE and not an ARCADE MACHINE. Sega made excellent arcade games, and still do to this very day, but it is a FACT that the Sega Master System was a FAILURE on the US market. 1980's US home console market - 1980's US arcade industry- Two very different subjects.

Look, I'm a die hard Sega loyalist and bleed blue, right? Nothing I would like better than to have an alternative reality come true whereby Sega's Master System crushed the NES, the Mega Drive buried the SNES, the Saturn destroyed the Playstation, the Dreamcast ruled supreme and Sega were still making consoles today. Alas, we do not live in that reality and no amount of number fiddling and goalpost moving will change that...sadly.

Yharnamresident
03-04-2018, 09:54 AM
Look, I'm a die hard Sega loyalist and bleed blue, right? Nothing I would like better than to have an alternative reality come true whereby Sega's Master System crushed the NES, the Mega Drive buried the SNES, the Saturn destroyed the Playstation, the Dreamcast ruled supreme and Sega were still making consoles today. Alas, we do not live in that reality and no amount of number fiddling and goalpost moving will change that...sadly.Actually I think Japan was the only place where the SNES outsold the Genesis, but the difference was so big that the SNES had the most sales overall.


Its the same situation with PS3 vs 360 sales.

Team Andromeda
03-04-2018, 11:53 AM
My man, They all were nothing compared to Nintendo at that time. Pricing, Marketing and overall sales made it hard as hell to compete with Nintendo having such a huge market share.


That is sperate for not knowing of other systems or them not having any presence at all . It may have escaped peoples notice, but Nintendo dominated Japan too with over 90% of the gaming market over there. MS dominated OS sales in the USA, PC sales dominated those compared to the Mac yet I people heard of Linux or even Mac Os.

Team Andromeda
03-04-2018, 11:55 AM
Actually I think Japan was the only place where the SNES outsold the Genesis, but the difference was so big that the SNES had the most sales overall.
Its the same situation with PS3 vs 360 sales.

No, the Snes sold better in the USA, France. Its was the UK where SEGA were true kings with both the MS and Snes outselling both the NES and MD, maybe Brazil too ?

Team Andromeda
03-04-2018, 11:59 AM
Well I knew that but overall he's not wrong. The SMS only really had 2 million units total my man. in a country at the time with almost 400 million people 2 million barely scratches the surface. :(.

How many units did the Mac shift inthe USA compared to the PC 486/Intel Pentium line of PCs, How well the Neo Geo or the TurboDuo sell in the USA, . How well did the Betamax do in the USA or the world compared to VHS. Just becasue a product or line gets killed in sales, doesn't mean one wouldn't know of it or that it had a presence, not actually wanting that product is a little different.

BonusKun
03-04-2018, 12:01 PM
That is sperate for not knowing of other systems or them not having any presence at all . It may have escaped peoples notice,

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. If something isn't noticed by someone, then to them it doesn't exist. Now don't take it literally when I'm saying this. But the SMS's presence in the United States was small compared to Nintendo at that time.

Keep in mind like I've said before, The # and stats speaks for itself. In the United States, Sega only moved around 2 million Sega Master Systems. Nintendo moved almost 34 million units. 2 million units in a country as large as the U.S. is nothing. Sega's Master System was a great piece of hardware and honestly deserved to compete with Nintendo on an even playing field but everyone only really cared about Mario and Zelda and Sega sadly didn't have a mascot or thing going for them that made everyone want to go out and buy it now. If it did we would have seen the Master System right up there with the NES but sadly that didn't happen.

I love the SMS and I'm happy I grew up in a time when I had a chance to enjoy it when it was new along with the NES. Sucks that Sega didn't finally kick Nintendo's ass until the Genesis and then of course they sat on their laurels and got made into nothing more then a 3rd party publisher. :(

Team Andromeda
03-04-2018, 12:16 PM
Now don't take it literally when I'm saying this. But the SMS's presence in the United States was small compared to Nintendo at that time.


No one is denying that. How many units did the TurboDuo sell in the USA? People didn't know of that, how many units did the Neo Geo sell in the USA, People didn't know of that either. I think it both cases the Master system sold better in the USA

gamevet
03-04-2018, 12:57 PM
The Turbo Duo was $300 and came out too late. Even I scoffed at the price of the Duo when I saw it. And the Neo Geo was a console for the rich; it was not a mass market product.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-04-2018, 04:45 PM
No, the Snes sold better in the USA, France. Its was the UK where SEGA were true kings with both the MS and Snes outselling both the NES and MD, maybe Brazil too ?

This is true. I'm so proud that, here in the UK, Sega really were number one and for quite some time too.

j_factor
03-04-2018, 06:28 PM
And this is exactly what I'm talking about. If something isn't noticed by someone, then to them it doesn't exist. Now don't take it literally when I'm saying this. But the SMS's presence in the United States was small compared to Nintendo at that time.

What about compared to the Xavix Port? Has Xavix sold more than 2 million?

gamevet
03-04-2018, 07:40 PM
A Xavix port?

That's a cheap novelty that now sells for $40.