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Leynos
07-20-2018, 12:25 AM
How likely is it this game could run on Saturn? Before someone just says easily. There are many NES looking indie games that actually are way more advanced than the NES could handle or use color palettes NES could not use plus sometimes being a couple hundred MB of data in size. Mania has a very authentic look to it but could it really run on Saturn from a technical point of view? How much would it have helped Saturn in sales? Let's say Sonic Mania released instead of clockwork Knight at launch. I know Saturn was kinda doomed no matter what but maybe just maybe done better launch numbers if just slightly. One of the SS biggest criticisms was no real Sonic Game.

Team Andromeda
07-20-2018, 04:58 AM
Not much because it would have needed a 3D Sonic to counter Mario 64 any 2D game not matter how brilliant or good looking would have been seen as inferior. Saturn could have done Sonic Mania and like I said before.. Sonic Mania is the game that should have been on the Mega CD and what Sonic CD should have been with full use if the ASIC chip and Sonic CD should have been brought to the Saturn for its USA and Pal launch with lush 24bit visuals, new bonus levels and full-screen lovely Cinepak FMV for Sonic CD animation

zyrobs
07-20-2018, 09:38 PM
Technically it could run on the Saturn, but it would have to push the console to the maximum and every effect and background would need to be hand tooled for proper use of background/sprite priorities. There would need to be a lot of tweaks made for that, so it wouldn't be 100% identical either.

I'm not sure how you could do the dynamic water effect though.

QuickSciFi
07-20-2018, 11:12 PM
I would be satisfied with even a Dreamcast port myself.

cleeg
07-21-2018, 02:46 AM
Android would do me, Sega hardware would be like a dream come true.

bultje112
07-21-2018, 03:57 AM
I'm very confident we will get an unofficial dreamcast version in the future. saturn would be a dream.

IrishNinja
07-21-2018, 04:09 AM
I would be satisfied with even a Dreamcast port myself.

same - i'd take what i can get. this is the real sonic 4 here.


I'm very confident we will get an unofficial dreamcast version in the future. saturn would be a dream.

based on what, though? scene's still alive but this still feels like a big undertaking

Raijin Z
07-21-2018, 04:45 AM
It would be easier to wait for someone to hack up a 64 megabit Sonic Mania for Genesis. Sonic for NES is being spruced up very nicely right now, so anything is popsicles.

Leynos
07-21-2018, 06:44 AM
Well someone got Netflix running on an NES. People seem to make the impossible...possible somehow.

Team Andromeda
07-21-2018, 09:30 AM
Technically it could run on the Saturn, but it would have to push the console to the maximum and every effect and background would need to be hand tooled for proper use of background/sprite priorities. .

It could be done. There's not much there that the Saturn or even the PSX couldn't do. But it would have to be built from the ground up for those systems and coded to the metal. Sonic Mania kind of shows what a Sonic CD game should have really looked like, with full use of the ASIC chip

axel
07-22-2018, 01:08 AM
Not much because it would have needed a 3D Sonic to counter Mario 64 any 2D game not matter how brilliant or good looking would have been seen as inferior. Saturn could have done Sonic Mania and like I said before.. Sonic Mania is the game that should have been on the Mega CD and what Sonic CD should have been with full use if the ASIC chip and Sonic CD should have been brought to the Saturn for its USA and Pal launch with lush 24bit visuals, new bonus levels and full-screen lovely Cinepak FMV for Sonic CD animation

Well, they had a year and a half before Mario 64 was even released, but I agree they needed something more than this for a next-gen console. Sonic Mania looks a little too much like a 16-bit game, which is fine today for nostalgia but not something that would get people to purchase a $400 console in 1995. If the Mega CD could run it that would be cool but it's still a very expensive add-on for another 2D Sonic title.

Team Andromeda
07-22-2018, 07:27 AM
Well, they had a year and a half before Mario 64 was even released, but I agree they needed something more than this for a next-gen console. Sonic Mania looks a little too much like a 16-bit game, which is fine today for nostalgia but not something that would get people to purchase a $400 console in 1995. If the Mega CD could run it that would be cool but it's still a very expensive add-on for another 2D Sonic title.

It's not quite that simple, the very 1st time Mario 64 was shown off in playable form, there was no going back to 2D and if SEGA did make a 2D Sonic game (as its main Saturn entry) people would have laughed and used it as yet more proof the Saturn sucked at 3D. A 2D Sonic for the Saturns launch in the west, would have been ok, but SEGA really would have needed to make Sonic a 3D game. It's just a shame SOA Sonic X was such a mess and that SOJ Sonic game (Sonic Adv) was moved up to the DC, when that game would have been really somthing, given it was made by the orginal Team members directed by Ohshima-san and shown in Sonic Jam had a stunning 3D engine in place.


Sonic Mania is more for me, what Sonic CD should have been and thats with widespread use of the ASIC chip on the bosses Ect...

axel
07-22-2018, 12:48 PM
When was Mario 64 first shown, E3 in 1996? Still a year after the Saturn U.S. launch, unless there was a demo shown earlier that I haven't seen. I don't know if I'd call the Sonic Jam engine stunning, but yes they probably could have made a decent game based on that.

You are right though, the ASIC was severely underused. I never really got in to Sonic CD, it had some innovative concepts but is my least favorite of the 16-bit Sonic platformers.

zyrobs
07-22-2018, 02:38 PM
The Mega CD ASIC was underused because it was a giant pain in the butt to get the timing on the Mega CD to cooperate right, and because using the ASIC imposed a massive speed penalty if you used it on more than, like, a quarter of the screen.

Team Andromeda
07-22-2018, 06:14 PM
When was Mario 64 first shown, E3 in 1996? Still a year after the Saturn U.S. launch, unless there was a demo shown earlier that I haven't seen..

The game was show off for the 1st time in 1995 Spaceworld show and all the gaming press were raving about it. So SEGA would have had to make a 3D Sonic game to counter it. Sonic Jam 3D sections were amazing given the hardware it was running on

Team Andromeda
07-22-2018, 06:31 PM
The Mega CD ASIC was underused because it was a giant pain in the butt to get the timing on the Mega CD to cooperate right, and because using the ASIC imposed a massive speed penalty if you used it on more than, like, a quarter of the screen.

Yes, but bosses Ect wouldn’t need to use all of the screen. Games like Son Of Chuck and Puggsy show what could have been done using the ASIC in a platform based game and not the cost or the frame rate. It was such a waste. SEGA Japan were crap on the Mega CD and needed a kicking for the way they left the Mega CD rot

Raijin Z
07-22-2018, 08:11 PM
Sega leaving the Sega CD to rot on the vine set a trend going all the way through the DC.

axel
07-22-2018, 10:02 PM
The game was show off for the 1st time in 1995 Spaceworld show and all the gaming press were raving about it. So SEGA would have had to make a 3D Sonic game to counter it. Sonic Jam 3D sections were amazing given the hardware it was running on

I see, they still had an entire year after the Japan launch though. Why wait so long to release a mascot platformer? The Sonic Jam sections would have been amazing in 1994/1995, by 1997 they were far less impressive compared to what the N64 had already done. Sonic Jam has some good textures but there's hardly anything going on, I bet the engine would slow considerably if you tried to do anything like the levels in Mario64.

zyrobs
07-22-2018, 10:42 PM
Sonic Team decided that they did not want to make a potentially poor Sonic game on the new unexplored hardware, so they worked on Nights instead.

Sonic Jam worked well because they already had the Nights engine done, so they just needed to build the levels, not work on the engine. And it was a very small hub, not the kind of open levels you have in a Sonic game.

bultje112
07-23-2018, 03:37 AM
sonic jam though was incredibly impressive imo and didn't look much worse than mario 64. sonic r is an even better example. had they made a game like that with enough hype in early 97/late 96 it would've gotten a lot of attention. a 2d sonic would've been bashed.

Team Andromeda
07-23-2018, 09:20 AM
I see, they still had an entire year after the Japan launch though. .


The team were still making S&K in Fall 1994 and given Japanese developers look to go on a long break after every project is completed work wouldn't have been able to start until 1995 and making a fully 3D Sonic would have taken a long time and wouldn't have been ready until 1996 at the earliest. Sonic Adv on the Saturn would have looked amazing, it wouldn't have been able to top Mario 64 gfx (not even the PSX could do that) but the Sonic Jam engine was amazing for a Saturn game and given that both Naka-san and Ohshima-san told SEGA Saturn mag that the team had achieved graphics people didn't think possible on the Saturn, it was shaping up to be a Saturn showcase.

Team Andromeda
07-23-2018, 09:29 AM
Sonic Team decided that they did not want to make a potentially poor Sonic game on the new unexplored hardware, so they worked on Nights instead.

Sonic Jam worked well because they already had the Nights engine done, so they just needed to build the levels, not work on the engine. And it was a very small hub, not the kind of open levels you have in a Sonic game.


I think that unlike the Mario Team who have 3 to 4 years before each main sequel to Mario, the Sonic team after making 4 Sonic games in 4 years got a little slick of Sonic and wanted to try something new and given SOA had started a 32Bit Sonic I guess SOJ felt they could wait for a Real Sonic Team Sonic game, while they made a new IP inbtween . I can't fault that myself, but SEGA Japan should have made sure that some Sonic game came on the Saturn, while the main Sonic Team and SOA Sonic games were in production. Sonic Jam 3d engine was amazing for a Saturn and its so sad we never got to see what Project Sonic (Sonic Adv) would have looked like in final form on the Saturn, The Avv part was unlike most Platform games and would have been increabile back on the Saturn in 1997. You can can clearly see some of the Saturn desgins in the Final Sonic SAdv game on some of the levels and even Boss battles like Choas 4 battle on the Water lilies, which looks for all the world like a VDP II effect.


Its a shame we never got to see stuff like Shenmue and Sonic Adv on the Saturn or the planned Team Andromeda new IP on the Saturn too, that was canned early in.

Leynos
07-24-2018, 05:45 AM
If only NiGHTS and Sonic Mania were launch games and later a full 3D Sonic game. Maybe 1996 months before Mario 64 to help counter it. Oh well. We shall never know.

axel
07-24-2018, 07:00 AM
I think that unlike the Mario Team who have 3 to 4 years before each main sequel to Mario, the Sonic team after making 4 Sonic games in 4 years got a little slick of Sonic and wanted to try something new and given SOA had started a 32Bit Sonic I guess SOJ felt they could wait for a Real Sonic Team Sonic game, while they made a new IP inbtween .

I can't fault them either, putting out yet another 2D Sonic game in 1995 would have been too much. If they could have done a 3D title at launch OK but it doesn't seem like there's any scenario where they would have had an engine for a 3D platformer that early.

Team Andromeda
07-24-2018, 08:51 AM
I can't fault them either, putting out yet another 2D Sonic game in 1995 would have been too much. If they could have done a 3D title at launch OK but it doesn't seem like there's any scenario where they would have had an engine for a 3D platformer that early.

I agree, but another team inside SEGA should have just ported Sonic CD to the Saturn and threw in Sonic the Arcade game as a bonus. Instead of porting Rad racer to the Saturn, that team should have been working on a special version of Sonic CD for the Saturn western launch with a remixed version. Kind of like Earthworm Jim 2 Micky Mania remixes for the 32bit systems
Not perfect but nice for the Western launches and good enough.

axel
07-24-2018, 10:41 AM
I agree, but another team inside SEGA should have just ported Sonic CD to the Saturn and threw in Sonic the Arcade game as a bonus. Instead of porting Rad racer to the Saturn, that team should have been working on a special version of Sonic CD for the Saturn western launch with a remixed version. Kind of like Earthworm Jim 2 Micky Mania remixes for the 32bit systems
Not perfect but nice for the Western launches and good enough.

You would launch a new console with a port of a 3 year old game? I don't know how well that would go over... The only Sonic title that almost makes sense to port over would be Knuckles Chaotix with a simultaneous release on the Saturn and 32X (provided it was actually a good game and not a half-finished mess with weird controls).

Team Andromeda
07-24-2018, 11:28 AM
You would launch a new console with a port of a 3 year old game? I don't know how well that would go over... The only Sonic title that almost makes sense to port over would be Knuckles Chaotix with a simultaneous release on the Saturn and 32X (provided it was actually a good game and not a half-finished mess with weird controls).

Knuckles wasn't a Sonic game and there is nothing wrong in bringing an updated old game to a new Platform with new GFX and a huge polish just to fill a cap, while you had the new show off games like VF, Pazner Dragoona and ClockworkKnight.
Its not like Rad Mobile was a new game by time of the Saturn, much less Super Thunderblade for the MD launch.

The Jackal
07-24-2018, 01:16 PM
Knuckles wasn't a Sonic game.

Of course it's a Sonic game. Just because Knuckles is the main character, doesn't mean anything - he's still a Sonic character. It's a spin-off. And besides, the game started life as Sonic Stadium on the Mega Drive, before they moved it to the 32X and replaced Sonic with Mighty.

stu
07-24-2018, 01:18 PM
You would launch a new console with a port of a 3 year old game? I don't know how well that would go over...

That was kind of point I was making in my original post in this thread. Sonic CD would of been old by then and its not like it set the world on fire when it came out on the Mega CD.
Its why I suggested delaying Sonic 3, TA made the (I guess fair) point that Sega would not want to delay Sonic 3 to 1995.
However I would say that 5 Sonic games between 1992 and 1994 was overkill imo (Sonic 2, Sonic CD, Sonic Spinball then Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles).

My next suggestion would have been to launched Sonic 3 as is on the Megadrive, then rework the Sonic and Knuckles project in to a full standalone Saturn game aimed at the US launch instead of being just additional levels for Sonic 3.
Granted it probably wasn't possible but it would have been better than an old Mega CD game.

axel
07-24-2018, 02:05 PM
Knuckles wasn't a Sonic game and there is nothing wrong in bringing an updated old game to a new Platform with new GFX and a huge polish just to fill a cap, while you had the new show off games like VF, Pazner Dragoona and ClockworkKnight.
Its not like Rad Mobile was a new game by time of the Saturn, much less Super Thunderblade for the MD launch.

Every new console gets ports but usually they aren't a huge selling point if they were already available on a previous console. Look at what Nintendo did with the SNES, they released Super Mario All-Stars with updated versions of their classic titles, but they still launched the console with a brand-new game built to take advantage of the new hardware. Using SMAS as the launch title would have been terrible because it would look like the new hardware just plays updated versions of old games.

A real sequel to Sonic CD would have been much better received than a port.

Team Andromeda
07-24-2018, 04:25 PM
Every new console gets ports but usually they aren't a huge selling point if they were already available on a previous console. Look at what Nintendo did with the SNES, they released Super Mario All-Stars with updated versions of their classic titles, but they still launched the console with a brand-new game built to take advantage of the new hardware. Using SMAS as the launch title would have been terrible because it would look like the new hardware just plays updated versions of old games.

A real sequel to Sonic CD would have been much better received than a port.

But you had new games to take off and show off the Hardware with Panzer Dragoon, Virtua Fighte, Bug, Clockwork Knight SONIC CD special Edition would have just plugged a hole, until SOA Sonic game of SOJ Sonic game were ready to go. Sonic CD took like 3 years to make, I'll high doubt the team either in the USA or Japan would have been able to get Sonic CD II ready for May or June 1995.

Unlike the Mario Team, the Sonic Team were asked to make a new Sonic game each year and given super tight deadlines.
I

Team Andromeda
07-24-2018, 04:32 PM
That was kind of point I was making in my original post in this thread. Sonic CD would of been old by then and its not like it set the world on fire when it came out on the Mega CD.
Its why I suggested delaying Sonic 3, TA made the (I guess fair) point that Sega would not want to delay Sonic 3 to 1995.
However I would say that 5 Sonic games between 1992 and 1994 was overkill imo (Sonic 2, Sonic CD, Sonic Spinball then Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles).

My next suggestion would have been to launched Sonic 3 as is on the Megadrive, then rework the Sonic and Knuckles project in to a full standalone Saturn game aimed at the US launch instead of being just additional levels for Sonic 3.
Granted it probably wasn't possible but it would have been better than an old Mega CD game.

Well I've always been for dropping MD internal support in 1994 and all projects moved up to Saturn and just have left it for 3rd parties to make the bulk of MD games in 1994/5. I would have loved to have had a 24bit colour Comix Zone with a 2 player mode and CD-DA sound track and a super improved Vectorman II on the Saturn.

Thats what I would have done

axel
07-24-2018, 05:34 PM
Well I've always been for dropping MD internal support in 1994 and all projects moved up to Saturn and just have left it for 3rd parties to make the bulk of MD games in 1994/5. I would have loved to have had a 24bit colour Comix Zone with a 2 player mode and CD-DA sound track and a super improved Vectorman II on the Saturn.

Thats what I would have done

That would have been a shame, 1994 was a good year for 16-bit games.

Re: deadlines here is what I see for the Mario team, at least, Miyamoto was involved on all of these games (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto_gameography):

1981 - Donkey Kong
1982 - Donkey Kong Jr.
1983 - Mario Bros.
1984 - none
1985 - Super Mario Bros.
1986 - Super Mario Bros. 2 (J)
1987 - Doki Doki Panic (SMB2)
1988 - Super Mario Bros. 3
1989 - none
1990 - Super Mario World
1991 - none
1992 - Super Mario Kart; Mario Paint
1993 - Super Mario All Stars
1994 - none
1995 - Super Mario World 2
1996 - Super Mario RPG; Mario 64; Mario Kart 64

Meanwhile here is the Sonic Team's output (using this as a source: http://www.shinforce.com/general/developers/Sonic_Team.htm)

1991 - Sonic the Hedgehog
1992 - Sonic 2
1993 - Sonic CD
1994 - Sonic 3
1994 - Sonic & Knuckles
1995 - none
1996 - none

So the Sonic Team had a very high output with 5 games in 3 years, but then went to work on other titles in 1995/1996 while four more Mario games came out!

There were plenty of other Sonic titles released, e.g. Sonic Spinball, Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine, the Game Gear titles, Knuckles Chaotix etc., but none had the involvement of the Sonic Team unless that reference is incorrect.

I'm sure the corporate structure was probably different at Nintendo but for one team to put out 15 games in 15 years in one series while also working on the Legend of Zelda and a ton of other titles is very impressive.

Team Andromeda
07-24-2018, 06:58 PM
1994 would still have been a great year , but I would have liked to seen SEGA in house studios get ready for 32bit production, given it was such a huge leap into 3D and leave the software to the likes of Treasure and Bluesky. Also in 1995 the Sonic Team made Nights. Unlike the Mario team, they pretty much made a game every year, it was a little silly. Still SEGA do much the same now with the Yaukza team

Blades
07-24-2018, 08:01 PM
1994 was a great year indeed, but 32-bit games were in their infancy. Of the big software houses, Sega was farthest along with conversions of Virtua Fighter and Myst on the Saturn. Sony scored a big hit with Ridge Racer but that was it.


1991 - Sonic the Hedgehog
1992 - Sonic 2
1993 - Sonic CD
1994 - Sonic 3
1994 - Sonic & Knuckles
1995 - none
1996 - none


Also in 1995 the Sonic Team made Nights.

Nights was 1996. 'Sonic RPG' (Sonic Adventure) development on the Saturn was also underway by then.

Team Andromeda
07-24-2018, 09:09 PM
Sorry I meant to say 1996. Project Sonic (Saturn Sonic Adv) didn’t start until after Nights was finished . The team used part of their off time and vacation, to go to S America and conduct research in 1996. Up until the Sonic Team were given the CS SEGA rally team, Somic team only had one line and could only work on one project at a time.

axel
07-24-2018, 11:34 PM
Nights was 1996. 'Sonic RPG' (Sonic Adventure) development on the Saturn was also underway by then.

Nights doesn't count for my list because it's not a Sonic game. Of course both teams made more games than what I listed but I only included games that featured Mario or Sonic.

matteus
07-26-2018, 04:43 PM
So what happened to discussing Sonic Mania for the Saturn on this thread...

Leynos
07-26-2018, 04:55 PM
I wish I knew.

DreamCarts
03-31-2019, 09:41 PM
Maybe. Would maybe need a Saturn game of Sonic for it to have a more deeper idea like mania in my opinion.

SegaDreamcast
08-07-2019, 05:31 AM
Sonic X-Treme releasing as planned for the Saturn would have made a massive difference imo. As for Clockwork Knight and Bug! they were great games and followed the Donkey Kong Country style graphics popular for the time period (wish more games used the style these days). Sonic Mania releasing during the Saturn's prime would probably be seen more as a followup to Sonic & Knuckles. Not a rival to Super Mario 64 though.

gamevet
08-08-2019, 09:02 PM
I was never impressed with Clockwork Knight or Bug! I don't even own Bug! anymore.

Leynos
08-09-2019, 01:36 AM
Bug! is painfully mediocre.

SegaDreamcast
08-09-2019, 12:12 PM
I've always been a fan of Bug! remember it was one of the first titles I tried on a Sega Saturn display at Toys 'R Us along with Virtua Fighter. Fond memories and such. 2.5D pre-rendered games of that era were groundbreaking, new visual territory at the time. Mischief Makers on the N64 being one of my favorites.

Team Andromeda
08-10-2019, 03:32 AM
I've always been a fan of Bug! remember it was one of the first titles I tried on a Sega Saturn display at Toys 'R Us along with Virtua Fighter. Fond memories and such. 2.5D pre-rendered games of that era were groundbreaking, new visual territory at the time. Mischief Makers on the N64 being one of my favorites.

BUG was decent and BUG II was simply fantastic. It's just a shame they were so hard and one couldn't save at the checkpoints or the game didn't have more checkpoints. I loved how Bug II levels were a parody. Bug II had really nice gfx( some of the VDP II misting effects were incredible) along with great music. I found Bug II to be much better than the overrated Crash games myself.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
08-10-2019, 07:33 AM
If something like Sonic Mania had been released on the Saturn back in '95 or '96, as great as we might think it would have been you just know that the games industry as a whole would have poured scorn on it. "It's not taking advantage of the hardware!" "It's not even 3D!" "It just looks like an upgraded Mega Drive game!" "Very disappointing from Sega." "It plays great but you've seen it all before on your Mega Drive."

Virtua Hunter
08-10-2019, 10:48 AM
Mania is still a Mega Drive game with some special effects.

What Saturn needed was a real 32 Bit 2D Sonic game as a launch title (to attract all Sonic fans to Saturn), than a 3D Sonic game (an entire game based on the wonderful "Sonic World" of Sonic Jam) to battle against Mario 64.

Leynos
08-10-2019, 01:16 PM
Mania has far too much going for it to work on Genesis.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
08-10-2019, 02:16 PM
Mania has far too much going for it to work on Genesis.

Yes but my point was that the games media back in the 90's would have described it as nothing more than a slightly enhanced Mega Drive game had Mania been released on the Saturn as Sonic 4 or something. The fact that it could not be done on the Mega Drive is besides the point. It would not have fared well from those expecting something new and flashy for the Sega Saturn.