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Leynos
08-06-2018, 09:37 AM
Change the Dreamcast? Not just hardware but lineup. Launch. Marketing? Now I realize none of us are businessmen so some of these proposals may sound a bit out there. This is just within reason fantasy scenario.


So I don't know all the business that would make this possible or impossible. I also don't have the best knowledge of specs. Any is free to say what they would do.

I think what I would want is a worldwide release in 1999. I think you either keep to the US 9/9/99. Or a delay to November. I would want to partner up with Microsoft. They would provide the funds to build the best hardware and SEGA and MS share profits. I'm sure MS gets some return deal as like Saturn maybe some of those games come to windows or they run the online or whatever. This way with MS money DC gets a DVD player. 32MB of ram. I add a second analog stick. Modem stays included. Now, this is where it gets a bit fuzzy but the reason for a WW release in 99 is so everyone gets it at once. Japan launch is not rushed. Lastly, some slightly more powerful hardware inside. I know 3DFX chip was to be based on Voodoo 2 but I am wondering if they could have put in a custom chip based on a lower spec Voodoo 3. I know a CPU needs to go well with a GPU but I don't know exactly what from the era. Hopefully something 300MHz or close to it. I also want to cut out VMU's. Yes, they were neat but bulky and no one really cared. Normal Memory cards.

While the glide API was popular and faded by the time Nvidia bought them. I might have eased devs into the DC with a familiar API. Nvidia I am sure would have still supplied the chips and support. I do think the US marketing was great and would keep it the way it was mostly but with the added info of DVD ability. Now then comes the cost. This is where I may have screwed SEGA. Sure MS doesn't care as they lost billions on Xbox. Ok so maybe take it down to the original Voodoo2 or specs we got except I still double the ram and add DVD playback with a second analog stick if the higher spec can't be sold at $300. Does this mean DC wins 6th gen? Maybe, maybe not. Sony's brand had a lot of weight to it.


US launch of games stays the same. In fact, I try to make every region have a similar launch with 1-2 exceptions that are more region appropriate. Japan still gets July and Godzilla.


And finally, the last thing I would change is the cases. Now SEGA did listen and drop the horrible PAL/US Saturn cases but still failed. The new standard was the DVD case. SO imagine buying your games in these. Blue for PAL. Orange for the US/Japan.

https://i.imgur.com/skSNavH.jpg

axel
08-06-2018, 02:06 PM
Change the Dreamcast? Not just hardware but lineup. Launch. Marketing? Now I realize none of us are businessmen so some of these proposals may sound a bit out there. This is just within reason fantasy scenario.


So I don't know all the business that would make this possible or impossible. I also don't have the best knowledge of specs. Any is free to say what they would do.

I think what I would want is a worldwide release in 1999. I think you either keep to the US 9/9/99. Or a delay to November. I would want to partner up with Microsoft. They would provide the funds to build the best hardware and SEGA and MS share profits. I'm sure MS gets some return deal as like Saturn maybe some of those games come to windows or they run the online or whatever. This way with MS money DC gets a DVD player. 32MB of ram. I add a second analog stick. Modem stays included. Now, this is where it gets a bit fuzzy but the reason for a WW release in 99 is so everyone gets it at once. Japan launch is not rushed. Lastly, some slightly more powerful hardware inside. I know 3DFX chip was to be based on Voodoo 2 but I am wondering if they could have put in a custom chip based on a lower spec Voodoo 3. I know a CPU needs to go well with a GPU but I don't know exactly what from the era. Hopefully something 300MHz or close to it. I also want to cut out VMU's. Yes, they were neat but bulky and no one really cared. Normal Memory cards.

While the glide API was popular and faded by the time Nvidia bought them. I might have eased devs into the DC with a familiar API. Nvidia I am sure would have still supplied the chips and support. I do think the US marketing was great and would keep it the way it was mostly but with the added info of DVD ability. Now then comes the cost. This is where I may have screwed SEGA. Sure MS doesn't care as they lost billions on Xbox. Ok so maybe take it down to the original Voodoo2 or specs we got except I still double the ram and add DVD playback with a second analog stick if the higher spec can't be sold at $300. Does this mean DC wins 6th gen? Maybe, maybe not. Sony's brand had a lot of weight to it.


US launch of games stays the same. In fact, I try to make every region have a similar launch with 1-2 exceptions that are more region appropriate. Japan still gets July and Godzilla.


And finally, the last thing I would change is the cases. Now SEGA did listen and drop the horrible PAL/US Saturn cases but still failed. The new standard was the DVD case. SO imagine buying your games in these. Blue for PAL. Orange for the US/Japan.

https://i.imgur.com/skSNavH.jpg

You can always make a console more powerful if you want to make it more expensive (or take a bigger loss on each unit). I thought the CPU and graphics were fine for the time. Problem with having Microsoft for a partner is they were getting ready to roll out their own hardware as well, they had so much money at the time they didn't need to work with anyone.

The one part of your proposal I like is going with a DVD drive -- at least that would held off piracy for a few years. DC was the first console I ever saw where people were buying and selling burned copies of games within a year of release. I also agree the VMU could have been removed. If it were up to me I would have dropped the modem too.

Leynos
08-06-2018, 02:20 PM
MS only got the Xbox going I believe because DC failed. Xbox was created in a very short amount of time as it was just a PC. Even the controller ports were USB 1.0 with a different connector. Focus tests they used the DC. Xbox was almost BC with DC games. I'm not sure MS would create the Xbox if MS was already producing the hardware for SEGA. EA had money riding on 3DFX so if the system had Voodoo likely would have had EA.

axel
08-06-2018, 02:31 PM
MS only got the Xbox going I believe because DC failed. Xbox was created in a very short amount of time as it was just a PC. Even the controller ports were USB 1.0 with a different connector. Focus tests they used the DC. Xbox was almost BC with DC games. I'm not sure MS would create the Xbox if MS was already producing the hardware for SEGA.

Not that I have internal memos from Microsoft or anything, but I believe development started well before that time, Gates even talked about the XBox around the time of the U.S. Dreamcast launch. I think Microsoft got involved with Sega just to test the waters with WinCE on a console, knowing full well they would have their own hardware out a couple years later. Sega got used.

Making the XBox must have been the easiest thing in the world for Microsoft since all they had to do was bundle their own software on generic PC hardware -- basically what they had been doing for years. Even if it had failed it would hardly have put a dent in Microsoft's profits at the time. (Which was not the case for Sega -- they had to succeed with the Dreamcast if they wanted to stay in the hardware business).

bultje112
08-06-2018, 04:49 PM
I don't know if this would've been possible but a global release in november/december 98, which is now very normal, would've been a great opportunity for sega since it would run unopposed to ps2 for 2 years. essential would've also been to have sonic adventure ready for launch release and a version of virtua fighter 3 vastly improved over it's arcade version like namco did with soul caliber.

Moirai
08-06-2018, 10:44 PM
Nix the modem, add DVD, normal memory cards, modem sold separately.

I think DVD in a console wouldíve been more significant than a built in modem at the time

Team Andromeda
08-07-2018, 08:02 AM
DVD was not an option, SOJ couldn't be more clear in how they couldn't afford to sell the system with the DVD drive or pay for the rights. So living with-in SEGA means these are some of the moves I would have liked SEGA to have done

Twin Analogue sticks and 6 buttons as standard in every DC pad.

The VMU unit to be powered by a AAA battery and to have 4 MEG saving as standard.


Deep Fear To have stop production on the Saturn and be moved up to DC development with better visuals and FMV ready for the system launch.

SOJ to have delayed the launch of the Japanese system, until NEC could meet and manufacture the 500,000 Pre Orders.

SEGA Rally II to have been delayed and built from the ground up for the DC. No use of Win CE and for the visuals to have been just like Model 3 step2 with the same dust, mud and snow debris trail effects and a better control method. And for the game Internet head to head racing to have been in all versions (not just the Japanese)

Sonic ADV to have been a bundle in with the DC for the Launch of the Dreamcast in the West and for that to been the bundled game including in every DC sold in the west untill Christmas.

The World Wide Soccer Team should have been given the task of making a follow-up straight away.

Lobotomy should have been bought by SOA and given the task of Half-Life port and also SEGA getting Exhumed/Power Slave II.

Jurassic Park the Lost World (the best light gun ever made) and Gun Blade NY, House of the Dead (Model 2) should have been ported to the DC.

Dirt Devils Should have been ported to the DC with more tracks and options.

Daytona USA and Daytona USA 2 collection should have been on the DC with full Online support.

Bug III to have been put into production and made for the DC.

SOJ should have supported Camelot better and invited them to the DC developers party and have them making a Shining Force IV game for the DC.

To have invested money in Working Designs say sorry and have them translate Grandia for the Saturn and Sakura Wars III for the DC along with their planned Saturn stuff.

Leynos
08-07-2018, 09:35 AM
MS is paying for the bulk of the hardware. That's the point of why it has higher specs and DVD. It's more or less a MS console with SEGA as the brand and a share in profits. In return some of SEGA's higher profile games get ported to PC much like Saturn and Nvidia.

Team Andromeda
08-07-2018, 12:03 PM
HUH ? . SEGA were paying for use of the WinCE, thats how MS makes it money, with people paying to use its software.
SOJ couldn't have been more clear in various interviews, it wasn't the tech that was the issue of the DVD drive. It was the cost of the unit and selling the system with a DVD Drive in it.
Even MS with all its cash didn't want to pay for DVD playback out of the box and one had to buy a DVD remote to turn the XBox into a DVD player

Leynos
08-07-2018, 12:24 PM
You don't get what the topic is about. Go away.

Team Andromeda
08-07-2018, 02:39 PM
You don't get what the topic is about. Go away.

So acting like a spoiled kid who can't get their own way. MS is a software corp and makes money from people paying to use its products. SEGA was paying to use WinCE and DVD drives in 1998 were expensive. Given SEGA was already selling the DC at a huge lost, it would be silly to expect the DC to have a DVD drive, much less offer DVD playback straight out of the box.
What next SEGA should have bought SONY and the PS2 chipset

Mega Drive Bowlsey
08-07-2018, 06:25 PM
So acting like a spoiled kid who can't get their own way. MS is a software corp and makes money from people paying to use its products. SEGA was paying to use WinCE and DVD drives in 1998 were expensive. Given SEGA was already selling the DC at a huge lost, it would be silly to expect the DC to have a DVD drive, much less offer DVD playback straight out of the box.
What next SEGA should have bought SONY and the PS2 chipset

What? Segata is being hypothetical. He's asking what decisions would people make if they were head of Sega back then. It's an alternate history scenario and he's inviting others to share their ideas. Relax!

Moirai
08-07-2018, 06:49 PM
Iíd port Jurassic Park The lost world 1997 to the Saturn with light guns and bring the 4meg cart to the states

Mega Drive Bowlsey
08-07-2018, 07:12 PM
Iíd port Jurassic Park The lost world 1997 to the Saturn with light guns and bring the 4meg cart to the states

Hell yes to that! :p

Moirai
08-07-2018, 08:50 PM
Hell yes to that! :p

I often wonder what kind of 3D graphics the Saturn could achieve with 4MB extra ram... better textures for sure.

axel
08-08-2018, 12:43 AM
HUH ? . SEGA were paying for use of the WinCE, thats how MS makes it money, with people paying to use its software.
SOJ couldn't have been more clear in various interviews, it wasn't the tech that was the issue of the DVD drive. It was the cost of the unit and selling the system with a DVD Drive in it.
Even MS with all its cash didn't want to pay for DVD playback out of the box and one had to buy a DVD remote to turn the XBox into a DVD player

It wasn't about playing DVD video. The problem was that pirated DC games were available online by Summer 2000, less than a year after the North American launch! When have you ever seen a console cracked that fast? Couldn't have happened if they'd used a DVD drive.

Team Andromeda
08-08-2018, 04:52 AM
What? Segata is being hypothetical. He's asking what decisions would people make if they were head of Sega back then. It's an alternate history scenario and he's inviting others to share their ideas. Relax!

I get that, But SEGA's Hideki Sato made it very clear that SEGA couldn't afford to sell the DC with a DVD drive in 1998 that tech or the DVD drive wasn't the issue, but price of the drive. DVD drives were hugely expensive and SEGA could ill afford to take the hit of selling a DC with a DVD drive. SEGA were paying for use of WinCE, not that turned out to be a good move in the end; The promised best of the PC ports never really happened and what WinCE games came out, never really used the hardware and also every DC developer I saw interviewed said SEGA Dreamcast tools were so good and clean, one didn't need to use WinCE anyway. It be easy to say SEGA should have made a DC with a DVD drive, but one needs to look at how much money SEGA had in 1998, the cost of DVD drives and after the Saturn getting knocked for its High Price point, SEGA not really being in a position to sell another console at a High Pricepoint.

I wanted the 360 to have a HD DVD as standard (more so has MS backed the format) and that would have saved the format IMO (and its better than BluRay IMO) but in the end MS were right to take the move of just using standard DVD drives in the 360 because cost of the unit was too important

Team Andromeda
08-08-2018, 05:08 AM
It wasn't about playing DVD video. The problem was that pirated DC games were available online by Summer 2000, less than a year after the North American launch! When have you ever seen a console cracked that fast? Couldn't have happened if they'd used a DVD drive.


Piracy was not an issue really. The PS must have been one of the most modded systems going and its sales kept on growing and growing. With the DC not enough people bought the system, even if you were looking to mod it and just play copied games just not enough people bought the console.
The Wii was cracked very early in and it sales just kept on going through the roof, hell the Switch has already been hacked and cracked and I doubt that will hurt the system at all. The OG XBox its self too was hacked early in and in 2002 one could buy mod chips for the system (I had my modded so I could play the import version of Orta in December of 2002) . So the DC really wasn't any sort of exception

When you sell enough systems, even with it being cracked you can still make plenty of money off games sales via familes going to the shops and not having the 1st clue over imports or modding a system. And its looking back with hindsight too, when one looks to use a proprietary system, that would in most cases puts a BIG stop to Piracy, but SEGA had a little oversight in that regard

Leynos
08-08-2018, 05:13 AM
Stop derailing.

Team Andromeda
08-08-2018, 05:24 AM
Stop derailing.

Ok

DC to have a DVD and also in 1988 Should have also bought Squaresoft, Bought Konami, bought GT Interactive, Bought Capcom and that would have been job done and made the DC into a monster selling console

axel
08-08-2018, 12:02 PM
Piracy was not an issue really. The PS must have been one of the most modded systems going and its sales kept on growing and growing. With the DC not enough people bought the system, even if you were looking to mod it and just play copied games just not enough people bought the console.
The Wii was cracked very early in and it sales just kept on going through the roof, hell the Switch has already been hacked and cracked and I doubt that will hurt the system at all. The OG XBox its self too was hacked early in and in 2002 one could buy mod chips for the system (I had my modded so I could play the import version of Orta in December of 2002) . So the DC really wasn't any sort of exception

When you sell enough systems, even with it being cracked you can still make plenty of money off games sales via familes going to the shops and not having the 1st clue over imports or modding a system. And its looking back with hindsight too, when one looks to use a proprietary system, that would in most cases puts a BIG stop to Piracy, but SEGA had a little oversight in that regard

I don't see it as the same situation, the PSX was not cracked early on (even if it was, who owned a CD burner in 1995?) and at least initially required a modchip. If you run pirated games on your Switch, Nintendo will permanently ban your device. Yes piracy happens on all systems sooner or later but with the DC I actually saw sales pick up when people realized it was the perfect box for ROMs, emulators, homebrew etc. It wasn't being bought by families who didn't know better, it was bought by experienced gamers who knew exactly what they were doing. Sega was losing money on the hardware already and more sales = bigger losses.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree but without addressing the piracy issue I don't see any way the DC could have succeeded.

Team Andromeda
08-08-2018, 01:27 PM
I don't see it as the same situation, the PSX was not cracked early on (even if it was, who owned a CD burner in 1995?) and at least initially required a modchip. If you run pirated games on your Switch, Nintendo will permanently ban your device. Yes piracy happens on all systems sooner or later but with the DC I actually saw sales pick up when people realized it was the perfect box for ROMs, emulators, homebrew etc. It wasn't being bought by families who didn't know better, it was bought by experienced gamers who knew exactly what they were doing. Sega was losing money on the hardware already and more sales = bigger losses.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree but without addressing the piracy issue I don't see any way the DC could have succeeded.

You miss the point of even after the PS was modded it didn't hurt the sales of either the Hardware or even the software, the system dominated the charts and even out did the DC when it launched in Japan and the West (way before the DC was hacked) . If you want to play Pirate games on the Switch I very much doubt you have any interest in playing online via Nintendo. That's to overlook the mod chips that were out for the PS2 and the OG XBox. If they was one system sold on the strength of its use of emu's media centre and homebrew it would be the OG XBox, even to this day its a homebrew and Emy fans dream and I was able to have my XBox modded after less than a year of it's USA launch, which I did in October 2002 run up to Japanese release of Orta in December 2002.


Even being easy to Mod, never helped with the DC sales. The simple fact was, too many consumers and even 3rd parties looked at it and used it as a stopgap system until the PS2 came out . You combine that with the amazing E3 trailer of Metal Gear Soild 2 the promise of Toy Story Real time GFX, Iraq stock pilling the system to run it weapon programmes and the bost of 70 million polygons a sec Vs the DC 3 million and that's what killed the DC IMO.

zyrobs
08-08-2018, 03:01 PM
I'd make a cost-reduced Saturn that is either profitable or at least doesn't generate a loss when sold (remove the MPEG slot, combine as many components into single ASICs as possible), heavily ramp up the production, and keep it going till 1999. With life support (ie. finishing existing developments properly, without being rushed) for one more year. Maybe make the cost reduced version come with the 4mb cart built in, if it can be afforded.

For the Dreamcast, entirely revise the shit controller, tweak the chipset for higher speeds (or lower heat so it doesn't need a heatpipe or a fan), and give it a DVD drive.


I don't see it as the same situation, the PSX was not cracked early on (even if it was, who owned a CD burner in 1995?) and at least initially required a modchip.

Even way back in 1997, many stores offered PSX modding, and everyone knew at least one guy who knew who to ask to buy burned games from for 4$ a piece. I still have the lists of a local seller (who has since passed away).

sull56ivan2010
08-08-2018, 03:05 PM
Stop derailing.

He's not derailing. You need to relax. DVD was not a big deal until 2001/02 when it overtook VHS in revenue. It's not like today where everyone has a DVD or Blu-Ray player. Not to mention the money Sega had around 97/98.

Hypothetically, I would want Microsoft to help out. Try to get it out in late 1999 and convince consumers and third parties. Sell on the four player aspect, online. 200 to maybe 150 in price.

axel
08-08-2018, 03:32 PM
Even way back in 1997, many stores offered PSX modding, and everyone knew at least one guy who knew who to ask to buy burned games from for 4$ a piece. I still have the lists of a local seller (who has since passed away).

I saw that more in like 1998/1999, but even so, I think piracy was less of a concern for big players like Sony and Microsoft who still had plenty of other revenue streams even if their consoles flopped. By the late 1990s Sega had only a rapidly diminishing arcade division (arcades were dying and had been for years) and a console division that had already suffered the failures of the 32X and Saturn. That's why for them the piracy issue was so critical.

Team Andromeda
08-08-2018, 04:52 PM
I saw that more in like 1998/1999, but even so, I think piracy was less of a concern for big players like Sony and Microsoft who still had plenty of other revenue streams even if their consoles flopped. By the late 1990s Sega had only a rapidly diminishing arcade division (arcades were dying and had been for years) and a console division that had already suffered the failures of the 32X and Saturn. That's why for them the piracy issue was so critical.

In 1998 it would be the PS that was far more open to Piracy, but it never held that system back even then it was still able to outsell the DC for hardware and games and if any system was wide open to Piracy back then it was the PC. SEGA was in a horrible place of selling the Hardware at a lose to try and get sales but also seeing poor Hardware sales (other than the USA) and low Software sales and to make matters worse the high cost of Model 3 boards meant for the 1st time in SEGA history its Arcade sector was making a lost. Sadly no enough people even wanted to buy a DC to play copied games


In fact talking about PC and MS I'm amazed MS actually made so much money, I knew of no-one who actually owned a Genuine copy of Win 98 or Win 98 SE much less Office, unless you had a brand new PC and it was bundle in, back in the day.

Gryson
08-08-2018, 05:45 PM
I saw that more in like 1998/1999, but even so, I think piracy was less of a concern for big players like Sony and Microsoft who still had plenty of other revenue streams even if their consoles flopped. By the late 1990s Sega had only a rapidly diminishing arcade division (arcades were dying and had been for years) and a console division that had already suffered the failures of the 32X and Saturn. That's why for them the piracy issue was so critical.

People at Sega were already pushing to abandon the DC right around the time that piracy developed in mid-to-late 2000. It ended up not making a difference.

However, as others have said, many consoles have suffered from heavy piracy. The PSX mod chip first became available in 1996 (and I can also remember seeing installation services advertised everywhere, along with very cheap burned discs). The original Xbox had rampant piracy. And of course there's the DS.

But more so than these, piracy has never been as prevalent on a console as on PC, and it hasn't destroyed the industry.

Even if the DC had lived longer, I doubt piracy would have had much effect. I think we tend to overestimate how widespread it was. In the end, I think most active consumers didn't have the knowledge or interest in pirating games. Of course, it's speculation either way, since there's no good way to measure that kind of thing.

bultje112
08-08-2018, 06:01 PM
pc industry was in terrible shape from 2003/2004 onwards. it's only been slowly getting back since 5 years or so thanks to steam.

axel
08-08-2018, 10:33 PM
Difference with PCs is that the companies making the games are not also selling PC hardware at a loss.

zyrobs
08-08-2018, 10:39 PM
Piracy didn't matter on the Dreamcast. Sega already stopped production by the time it became rampant.

The PS2 was just too big of a juggernaut, that was all.

gamevet
08-09-2018, 12:59 AM
I would of had Sega team up with Phillips for a console developed between the 2 companies. It would of had a DVD drive, since Phillips co-developed DVD technology with Sony, and they could have shared the cost of the system manufacturing and shared software profits.

Leynos
08-09-2018, 02:23 AM
I would of had Sega team up with Phillips for a console developed between the 2 companies. It would of had a DVD drive, since Phillips co-developed DVD technology with Sony, and they could have shared the cost of the system manufacturing and shared software profits.

I like it.

Team Andromeda
08-09-2018, 03:17 AM
Difference with PCs is that the companies making the games are not also selling PC hardware at a loss.

Got news for you, MS didn't make PC's back in those days :P. There were a software corp and like I said I knew of no-one with a genuine copy of either Office or Win 98 back inthe day.

Team Andromeda
08-09-2018, 03:20 AM
It would of had a DVD drive, since Phillips co-developed DVD technology with Sony, and they could have shared the cost of the system manufacturing and shared software profits.

Do you even know what you're talking about ?. Philips and SONY lost the DVD battle, Toshiba format won and they were the makers of DVD Tech and the rights holder

BonusKun
08-09-2018, 08:42 AM
So, I was away for awhile and I find out that you've been reported multiple times TA. I just sat and read this thread and while you have been derailing the shit out of it, I'm not going to do anything other then to drop a warning and ask you to keep it on topic. I don't need a Barone 2.0 mess in here.

Team Andromeda
08-09-2018, 09:12 AM
OK sorry.

To stay on Topic. SEGA should have had Toshiba make their DC CPU, give it a fancy name and also had Toshiba supply the DVD drive for the DC. SEGA should have bought Konami, SquareSoft, Edios, GT Interactive, Capcom, Namco, Temco and bought a ton of Apple shares.... That would have been just about enough to have won the battle

bultje112
08-09-2018, 09:22 AM
Piracy didn't matter on the Dreamcast. Sega already stopped production by the time it became rampant.

The PS2 was just too big of a juggernaut, that was all.
piracy became rampant in august of 2000, even before the ps2 got released.

Gryson
08-09-2018, 12:03 PM
pc industry was in terrible shape from 2003/2004 onwards. it's only been slowly getting back since 5 years or so thanks to steam.

But piracy has been rampant on the PC since the 80s.


Difference with PCs is that the companies making the games are not also selling PC hardware at a loss.

Sega removed MIL-CD support from the DC shortly after piracy started picking up. Of course, they discontinued the DC right after that, but had it continued, people would have been in for a surprise if they went out and bought a DC just to play pirated games.

But anyway, the point stands: There's no evidence that piracy affected the DC any more than many other consoles, and Sega was already planning on discontinuing the DC by the time piracy was growing.

Latching on to piracy as the cause of the DC's demise is a correlation-causation fallacy and ignores the many other problems Sega had at the time.

bultje112
08-09-2018, 01:56 PM
But piracy has been rampant on the PC since the 80s.



Sega removed MIL-CD support from the DC shortly after piracy started picking up. Of course, they discontinued the DC right after that, but had it continued, people would have been in for a surprise if they went out and bought a DC just to play pirated games.

But anyway, the point stands: There's no evidence that piracy affected the DC any more than many other consoles, and Sega was already planning on discontinuing the DC by the time piracy was growing.

Latching on to piracy as the cause of the DC's demise is a correlation-causation fallacy and ignores the many other problems Sega had at the time.

pc games in the 80 were cheap to make. by the 2000s they weren't. there's a reason many major titles weren't released on pc even as far as 2010 like red dead redemption.

axel
08-09-2018, 04:53 PM
Got news for you, MS didn't make PC's back in those days :P. There were a software corp and like I said I knew of no-one with a genuine copy of either Office or Win 98 back inthe day.

I am not claiming they did. Microsoft's software was pirated left and right, by some estimates there were more pirate copies of Windows than legitimate copies, especially on the international market. Microsoft does not make any money on pirated software, but they are not necessarily losing money either if the pirate was never a potential customer in the first place.

With a console it is a different story -- the hardware is sold at a loss, so someone who buys the console with the intent of doing nothing but running pirated games and homebrew is costing the manufacturer money. If every console you build means a bigger loss, how many consoles will you make?

FWIW, I did own legit copies of MS software back in the day. I bought Windows 98SE, probably at a student discount, for a PC I built in early 1999. My other computers came with OEM versions of Windows already installed.

gamevet
08-09-2018, 06:19 PM
Do you even know what you're talking about ?. Philips and SONY lost the DVD battle, Toshiba format won and they were the makers of DVD Tech and the rights holder

No, do you know what youíre talking about?




https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/dvd-format-video/6-1-Who-invented-DVD-and-who-owns-it-Whom-to-contact-for-sp.html


Any company making DVD products must license the patented technology from a
Philips/Pioneer/Sony pool, a Hitachi/Matsushita/Mitsubishi/Time
Warner/Toshiba/Victor pool, and from Thomson. Total royalties are about 6%
(minimum $6) for a DVD-Video player, 6% (minimum $6) for a DVD-ROM drive,
5% (minimum $2) for a DVD decoder, and 10 cents for a DVD disc.

Team Andromeda
08-09-2018, 06:55 PM
Sadly I can't respond to off topic questions, with off topic answers. Because there's no issue with others going off topic, just me . So Sadly I must stay on Topic or be banned.

So can only say that going with Philips and Sony planned MMCD DVD format was doomed to fail as it was the Toshiba and Time Warner Super Density DVD format that won the day. So SEGA should have had Toshiba not only make a DVD drive for the DC, but also design and make its CPU and even had Toshiba manufacture the DC GPU; given the brilliant job the Corp did with the manufacturer of the OG PS GPU. Add to that SEGA should have bought a ton of Apple shares (rather than 3DFX) should have bought Konami, SquareSoft, Edios, GT Interactive, Namco, Capcom, Temco and SEGA should have brought out the DC for the price point of £150 and watch SEGA clean up and win the war... All hypothetically, of course :)

Leynos
08-10-2018, 12:39 AM
No, do you know what youíre talking about?




https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/dvd-format-video/6-1-Who-invented-DVD-and-who-owns-it-Whom-to-contact-for-sp.html
I think I am going to keep everything I said but replace MS with Phillips. Panasonic is out as they were in a deal with Nintendo for Gamecube on up to Wii U for the discs/drives. The 1990s Phillips as you mentioned with DVD but they were also still one of the bigger electronic brands.


Now the question is. Does the Dreamcast MP3 player still come out? We had Dreamcast Watches and Discmans for some reason. Not sure TBH. I do still keep the ability to connect with the Neo Geo Pocket and promote it more. (Gamecube is credited for doing the GBA link Cable but DC did it first)

GameUser-16-32-128
08-10-2018, 12:47 AM
Off topic: Who da fawk is "Temco"?

On topic:
1. Delay the release of the DC.
2. Improve the hardware.
3. Backwards compatibility with Saturn games.
4. Redesign the DC pad to make it look more like the Saturn pad, but with analog sticks.
5. Revive old IPs!

Team Andromeda
08-10-2018, 01:15 AM
Now the question is. Does the Dreamcast MP3 player still come out? We had Dreamcast Watches and Discmans for some reason. Not sure TBH. I do still keep the ability to connect with the Neo Geo Pocket and promote it more. (Gamecube is credited for doing the GBA link Cable but DC did it first)

I could never see the point of those planned Dreamcast Swatch watches when one could be able to scan cinema tickets into the device, but the MP3 player was forward thinking. I guess storage costs was a bigger issue for that planned device. To go back to DVD, Given that Toshiba format won the day and SEGA was needed to send out early development kits and tools chain in early 1997.
It would have been sensible to go with Toshiba for DVD manufacture, because not only would they have the tech (since their format won) Toshiba wouldn't need to pay any licence fee either and also Toshiba had the manufacturing capability too. But like the Mega CD, Saturn, Neo Geo CD showed, going for the right games delivery format, doesn't = success and there's a lot of other issues like games and 3rd party support that will make of break a console.


Since we're being hypothetical. SEGA should have also brought out a 10 Gig Hard Drive add-on for the DC in 1998 priced at £50 too

gamevet
08-10-2018, 01:22 AM
I could never see the point of those planned Dreamcast Swatch watches when one could be able to scan cinema tickets into the device, but the MP3 player was forward thinking. I guess storage costs was a bigger issue for that planned device. To go back to DVD, Given that Toshiba format won the day and SEGA was needed to send out early development kits and tools chain in early 1997.
It would have been sensible to go with Toshiba for DVD manufacture, because not only would they have the tech (since their format won) Toshiba wouldn't need to pay any licence fee either and also Toshiba had the manufacturing capability too. But like the Mega CD, Saturn, Neo Geo CD showed, going for the right games delivery format, doesn't = success and there's a lot of other issues like games and 3rd party support that will make of break a console.


Since we're being hypothetical. SEGA should have also brought out a 10 Gig Hard Drive add-on for the DC in 1998 priced at £50 too

Toshiba does not outright own the rights to the DVD licence. It is owned by several groups and each earns licensing fees and has the ability to manufacture those devices without paying said fees. MS put Thompson drives in their original Xbox, because Thompson was part of that DVD group.

Toshiba was key in the design of HD DVD, but that has nothing to do with DVD in 1998.

Team Andromeda
08-10-2018, 01:39 AM
Again I can't respond directly to off-topic issues, because no doubt you report me and add me to your ignore list (funny I was meant to have been added to that years ago) All I can say is that SEGA and Yamaha invented the GD-Rom format for the DC, but Samsung made most of the Drives made the Western systems, unlike Yamaha for the launch Japanese systems.
Toshiba DVD format won out and since SEGA were looking to go early, they would have been the ideal choice for any DVD drive in early 98 for the DC.

gamevet
08-10-2018, 01:47 AM
Again I can't respond directly to off-topic issues, because no doubt you report me and add me to your ignore list (funny I was meant to have been added to that years ago) All I can say is that SEGA and Yamaha invented the GD-Rom format for the DC, but Samsung made most of the Drives made the Western systems, unlike Yamaha for the launch Japanese systems.
Toshiba DVD format won out and since SEGA were looking to go early, they would have been the ideal choice for any DVD drive in early 98 for the DC.

I don't report people. Provide a link, because what you are saying makes no sense. I've provided a link that tells you every company that has a hand in DVD technology and licensing.

Team Andromeda
08-10-2018, 06:44 AM
Love to have a debate, but can't and need to stay on Topic. To me the DVD drive was not the issue. But to be serious and stay on Topic along with a dual analogue Controls, I would have liked to saw the DC use Power PC as its CPU. Thought it would have been a better choice and also helped with the Model 3 ports.

doomguy
08-10-2018, 11:26 AM
Honestly, i think people would have been much more willing to support the Dreamcast in the west if they had continued at least localising games for the Saturn, Buying a Dreamcast at launch probably felt like a gamble for that reason alone.

gamevet
08-10-2018, 03:11 PM
Honestly, i think people would have been much more willing to support the Dreamcast in the west if they had continued at least localising games for the Saturn, Buying a Dreamcast at launch probably felt like a gamble for that reason alone.

The Saturn was such a non-factor in the West, that bringing over more games that wouldnít sell had very little impact on that region. Japanís success with the Saturn did not carry over to the Dreamcast, while the DC explorded onto the market in North America, despite what the Saturn had done before it.

Team Andromeda
08-10-2018, 04:52 PM
Honestly, i think people would have been much more willing to support the Dreamcast in the west if they had continued at least localising games for the Saturn, Buying a Dreamcast at launch probably felt like a gamble for that reason alone.

Spot on, Made that point before. SEGA was getting a bar rep for making systems only to drop support for them a few years after and to make matters worse the morons at SEGA America even messed around one of the few 3rd parties they had left, over a E3 bill. Dave Perry even told EDGE that SOA didn't have a clue and he wouldn't make another game for SEGA unless there was a change to the management.
Shame though as SOA did far better with the DC than either Japan or Europe.

I think to many people and developers, the DC was nothing more than a stopgap untill the PS2 hit town

Leynos
08-10-2018, 04:55 PM
We had this discussion before so not worth diving very deep back into it but Saturn practically didn't exist in the US by 1997. It was a 2 horse race by that point.

axel
08-10-2018, 05:47 PM
We had this discussion before so not worth diving very deep back into it but Saturn practically didn't exist in the US by 1997. It was a 2 horse race by that point.

Yup. IMO it would have been better to put those Saturn resources toward getting the Dreamcast out the door, imagine a worldwide launch by holiday season 1998 with a finished version of Sonic Adventure as the pack-in game, plus Crazy Taxi, Phantasy Star Online and Shenmue all available on day one.

By 1997 it was clear the Saturn situation was not going get better.

zyrobs
08-10-2018, 08:01 PM
3. Backwards compatibility with Saturn games.

This wouldn't be possible, unless they spent a significant amount of money first to shrink the Saturn to just a few chips. Considering that they kept trying to simplify it even up till 1998, I don't think this would be possible without a major investment of money, something Sega did not have anymore.

axel
08-10-2018, 10:46 PM
This wouldn't be possible, unless they spent a significant amount of money first to shrink the Saturn to just a few chips. Considering that they kept trying to simplify it even up till 1998, I don't think this would be possible without a major investment of money, something Sega did not have anymore.

Can the SH-4 run SH-2 code? If that's possible then maybe it's doable... but why? The Saturn games were not big sellers to begin with, it would have added nothing to the Dreamcast.

Leynos
08-10-2018, 10:59 PM
SEGA needed to get as far away from the Saturn as they could with DC. Why the system was white and sleek. Easy to develop for.

zyrobs
08-10-2018, 11:07 PM
Can the SH-4 run SH-2 code? If that's possible then maybe it's doable...

I think they have different endians, but that's the least of problems, you have a bajillion custom chips to support, each with its own memory banks and accesses. Doing it in hardware would make the DC board three time the size and the console twice the cost.


SEGA needed to get as far away from the Saturn as they could with DC. Why the system was white and sleek. Easy to develop for.

Saturns have been sleek and white since 1996 in Japan.

Leynos
08-10-2018, 11:39 PM
White yes. Japan yes. West. No. Sleek. God no.

gamevet
08-11-2018, 12:08 AM
Saturns have been sleek and white since 1996 in Japan.

Most of them have turned yellow. :p

Team Andromeda
08-11-2018, 01:25 AM
Yup. IMO it would have been better to put those Saturn resources toward getting the Dreamcast out the door, imagine a worldwide launch by holiday season 1998 with a finished version of Sonic Adventure as the pack-in game, plus Crazy Taxi, Phantasy Star Online and Shenmue all available on day one.

By 1997 it was clear the Saturn situation was not going get better.

But you wouldn't many resources. All SEGA America needed to do was to cherry pick some of the best Saturn games and bring them over, not develop them. All SOA did be let 1997 and 1998 be negative for the Saturn in America and basically buy a PS or N64 and no matter what SOA did, it was going to lose a ton of cash. SEGA America should have just looked to work with WD bring Grandia, Princess Crown over to the Saturn and then looked to have picked up X Men Vs Street Fighter, Metal Slug, Dead Of Alive, Radiant Silvergun, Souky, Astal Superstars, Shining Force III parts 2 and 3 Ect .. Games that needed mimiual traslation and would just show SEGA cared about its core fans and also where those games outdid the PS and would have reviewed well too.
Like I said I had no real issue with Sonic Adv and Shenmue being moved up to DC production and felt the same should have happened to Deep Fear given that didn't make much use of the Saturn VDP II, whereas games like SF III and Saga made such heavy use of the VDP II they would have been hard to move over to DC Production. I very much doubt it would have been possible to get PSO, Shenmue, PSO ready for day one even without the Saturn. The USA launch of the DC was one of the best. It was just the feeling that all the main 3rd parties were keeping their big hitting games for the PS2 and in the 'public' eye the PS2 was way more powerfull. I mean the PS2 Japan and USA lanch line up was poor, but noone cared, the hype said they had to buy the system.

axel
08-11-2018, 01:36 AM
I think they have different endians, but that's the least of problems, you have a bajillion custom chips to support, each with its own memory banks and accesses. Doing it in hardware would make the DC board three time the size and the console twice the cost.

You are probably right but the fact that it was able to emulate the PSX (via Bleemcast) makes me think Saturn emulation could have been in the realm of possibility if Sega had wanted it.

axel
08-11-2018, 01:42 AM
But you wouldn't many resources. All SEGA America needed to do was to cherry pick some of the best Saturn games and bring them over, not develop them. All SOA did be let 1997 and 1998 be negative for the Saturn in America and basically buy a PS or N64 and no matter what SOA did, it was going to lose a ton of cash. SEGA America should have just looked to work with WD bring Grandia, Princess Crown over to the Saturn and then looked to have picked up X Men Vs Street Fighter, Metal Slug, Dead Of Alive, Radiant Silvergun, Souky, Astal Superstars, Shining Force III parts 2 and 3 Ect .. Games that needed mimiual traslation and would just show SEGA cared about its core fans and also where those games outdid the PS and would have reviewed well too.
Like I said I had no real issue with Sonic Adv and Shenmue being moved up to DC production and felt the same should have happened to Deep Fear given that didn't make much use of the Saturn VDP II, whereas games like SF III and Saga made such heavy use of the VDP II they would have been hard to move over to DC Production. I very much doubt it would have been possible to get PSO, Shenmue, PSO ready for day one even without the Saturn. The USA launch of the DC was one of the best. It was just the feeling that all the main 3rd parties were keeping their big hitting games for the PS2 and in the 'public' eye the PS2 was way more powerfull. I mean the PS2 Japan and USA lanch line up was poor, but noone cared, the hype said they had to buy the system.

I agree, I was not impressed with the PS2 initially at all. I thought the Gamecube and XBox would squash it, boy was I wrong!

Team Andromeda
08-11-2018, 01:43 AM
You are probably right but the fact that it was able to emulate the PSX (via Bleemcast) makes me think Saturn emulation could have been in the realm of possibility if Sega had wanted it.

Give it took Saturn emu so long to get up to scratch and took mighty PC's I very much doubt it. Should have been great for Mega Drive and Master system though and SEGA Japan did offer an MD and PC-Eng games download services in Japan for the DC (I gather all the games were perfect emulated too) . Yet again SEGA leading the way, long before the likes of XBox Live Arcade.

axel
08-11-2018, 01:53 AM
Give it took Saturn emu so long to get up to scratch and took mighty PC's I very much doubt it. Should have been great for Mega Drive and Master system though and SEGA Japan did offer an MD and PC-Eng games download services in Japan for the DC (I gather all the games were perfect emulated too) . Yet again SEGA leading the way, long before the likes of XBox Live Arcade.

Yep. First console to offer emulation of previous consoles.

zyrobs
08-11-2018, 11:05 AM
You are probably right but the fact that it was able to emulate the PSX (via Bleemcast) makes me think Saturn emulation could have been in the realm of possibility if Sega had wanted it.

The PSX had a piss simple setup compared to the Saturn, and most of its features had hardware equivalents on the Dreamcast (and on damn near every other hardware that could do hardware triangles).

For the Saturn the only thing you could emulate in hardware on the DC would be the sound, and even then you'd need the ARM chip to run 68k code somehow.

gamevet
08-18-2018, 11:19 PM
But you wouldn't many resources. All SEGA America needed to do was to cherry pick some of the best Saturn games and bring them over, not develop them. All SOA did be let 1997 and 1998 be negative for the Saturn in America and basically buy a PS or N64 and no matter what SOA did, it was going to lose a ton of cash. SEGA America should have just looked to work with WD bring Grandia, Princess Crown over to the Saturn and then looked to have picked up X Men Vs Street Fighter, Metal Slug, Dead Of Alive, Radiant Silvergun, Souky, Astal Superstars, Shining Force III parts 2 and 3 Ect .. Games that needed mimiual traslation and would just show SEGA cared about its core fans and also where those games outdid the PS and would have reviewed well too.
Like I said I had no real issue with Sonic Adv and Shenmue being moved up to DC production and felt the same should have happened to Deep Fear given that didn't make much use of the Saturn VDP II, whereas games like SF III and Saga made such heavy use of the VDP II they would have been hard to move over to DC Production. I very much doubt it would have been possible to get PSO, Shenmue, PSO ready for day one even without the Saturn. The USA launch of the DC was one of the best. It was just the feeling that all the main 3rd parties were keeping their big hitting games for the PS2 and in the 'public' eye the PS2 was way more powerfull. I mean the PS2 Japan and USA lanch line up was poor, but noone cared, the hype said they had to buy the system.

Why?!

The North American Dreamcast's launch proved that whatever happened with the Saturn did not affect its sales. All of those titles were available for the Saturn in Japan, yet the Dreamcast bombed over there. The success of the Saturn in Japan did not continue on with the DC there. And, the amount of retail support for the Saturn in North America was pretty pathetic by 1997. Those games wouldn't of had much of an audience to buy the software, because most of them had moved on to the PlayStation.

PreZZ
08-19-2018, 12:29 AM
What if saturn would have been the sgi proposal to sega of america, basically a n64 with cd!! Sega would have killed both n64 and ps1 with superior hardware, and probably would still be a console manufacturer.
Imo they did everything thing right with dc, it had good hardware, cheap price, online and great launch games. The bad reputation from too much add ons and failures in the past years (sega cd,32x, saturn) kept many burnt customers away from the dc

axel
08-19-2018, 02:04 AM
What if saturn would have been the sgi proposal to sega of america, basically a n64 with cd!! Sega would have killed both n64 and ps1 with superior hardware, and probably would still be a console manufacturer.
Imo they did everything thing right with dc, it had good hardware, cheap price, online and great launch games. The bad reputation from too much add ons and failures in the past years (sega cd,32x, saturn) kept many burnt customers away from the dc

I didn't see the CD and 32X really damaging Sega's rep, except maybe for the people who bought these add-ons at full price back in the day. The Saturn is where things really went downhill IMHO because it meant they were essentially out of the 5th gen market and Sony was firmly established as the leader.

An N64 + CD would have been great although maybe very expensive, especially at the time the Saturn launched.

Moirai
08-19-2018, 02:31 AM
E3 Ď97

Saturn is our future, nothing else matters

*continues making saturns and games for all eternity*

Team Andromeda
08-19-2018, 05:47 AM
Why?!

The North American Dreamcast's launch proved that whatever happened with the Saturn did not affect its sales. All of those titles were available for the Saturn in Japan, yet the Dreamcast bombed over there. The success of the Saturn in Japan did not continue on with the DC there. And, the amount of retail support for the Saturn in North America was pretty pathetic by 1997. Those games wouldn't of had much of an audience to buy the software, because most of them had moved on to the PlayStation.

For the people who had spent a lot of their hard earned money on the Saturn and because the Benire message to the user, was don't bother with SEGA but buy one of your rivals. And more because for the whole of 1998 SEGA America would have next to nothing to offer, would lose money anyway and it would have meant so positive reviews in the gaming mag's and showed that SEGA cared for the user and that it wasn't a copr that just kept on bringing new hardware after just a matter of years . SOJ handling of the DC launch was terrible and just as bad as SOA with the Saturn. Lack of software (not really a big deal in Japan mind) and when NEC couldn't meet the demand for the Power VR is when SEGA Japan should have delayed the DC untill it had the hardware to meet the intiall 500,000 pre-orders.

gamevet
08-19-2018, 12:23 PM
For the people who had spent a lot of their hard earned money on the Saturn and because the Benire message to the user, was don't bother with SEGA but buy one of your rivals. And more because for the whole of 1998 SEGA America would have next to nothing to offer, would lose money anyway and it would have meant so positive reviews in the gaming mag's and showed that SEGA cared for the user and that it wasn't a copr that just kept on bringing new hardware after just a matter of years . SOJ handling of the DC launch was terrible and just as bad as SOA with the Saturn. Lack of software (not really a big deal in Japan mind) and when NEC couldn't meet the demand for the Power VR is when SEGA Japan should have delayed the DC untill it had the hardware to meet the intiall 500,000 pre-orders.

Saturn was dead. Bernie's message in an interview (it was not announced on a stage) did not change that fact. Software was sitting on shelves collecting dust and adding more wouldn't have changed a thing. My Saturn library was bought on the cheap, when games like Mega Man X4 and Guardian Heroes were being discounted down to $8.

Team Andromeda
08-19-2018, 12:43 PM
Saturn was dead. Bernie's message in an interview (it was not announced on a stage) did not change that fact. Software was sitting on shelves collecting dust and adding more wouldn't have changed a thing. My Saturn library was bought on the cheap, when games like Mega Man X4 and Guardian Heroes were being discounted down to $8.

Bernie message or read 5-star plan was terrible. It hurt the user of SEGA and the people who went out and paid a lot of good money on the Saturn. Not only did Bernie 5 star plan rob the Saturn user in the USA of some of its best games, that not only really showed off the Saturn hardware, but were brilliant games in their own right. He also made sure to have a pointless argument with Working Designs and that mean that WD planned conversion of Saturn Lunar 1 and II was canned as was the plans for bringing over Souky, Battle Garegga, Thunder Force V (which WD confirmed to Saturn Power had all be picked up the USA) and he also upset Shinny and Dave Perry who then dropped Wild Nine for the Saturn (when that game was meant to be using insane tricks on the Saturn version)


So thanks to Bernie Saturn users not only lost out on stuff like Grandia in the West but also stuff like Wild Nine and Working Designs translations and given the amazing job they with the Lunars on the PS and the amazing box sets they came in, it was gutting that the Saturn user mixed out on them and then the likes Thunder Force V Ect. Sure Bernie was left a terrible hand by TOM with SEGA America in a complete mess from top to bottom. But he could have handled the Saturn end a lot better.. But he did a lot of good for the DC launch tbh, unlike the cock up in Japan or worse still how SEGA Europe was run under that French Baboon, who didn't have the 1st clue.

gamevet
08-19-2018, 01:05 PM
Bernie did what he did, because the software was not selling and the hardware was being sold at a loss. Even games like Panzer Dragoon Saga and House of the Dead sat on Toys R' Us shelves for over 6 months, before the stores started dumping them for $20 a piece. I should have bought an extra copy or 2 of PDS, but I didn't.

Yeah, Japan was run by a bunch of idiots. Why would they need to rush the DC, if the Saturn was doing so well there?

Team Andromeda
08-20-2018, 05:43 AM
Bernie did what he did, because the software was not selling and the hardware was being sold at a loss. Even games like Panzer Dragoon Saga and House of the Dead sat on Toys R' Us shelves for over 6 months, before the stores started dumping them for $20 a piece. I should have bought an extra copy or 2 of PDS, but I didn't.

Yeah, Japan was run by a bunch of idiots. Why would they need to rush the DC, if the Saturn was doing so well there?

I'm not going to get in a silly argument.. But I'll highly doubt in 1997 any Saturn hardware was being sold at a loss and if like Andy Mee confirmed to Saturn Power that SEGA Europe was selling the Saturn at cost price in 1996 with the Action pack Saturn, then I'm quite sure in 1997 All Saturn hardware was bing sold at cost price. Then Bernie 5 start plan made sure the best games of Japan never came over and if the boss of SEGA America didn't care or was bothered with the Saturn, why should retail and 3rd parties? Benire should be been just a little more sensible with his actions and his comments... I get why he did it, but it not only hurt SEGA's already battered image it hurt the SEGA core user and the moment you lose and hurt your own fanbase is the moment you lose the high ground.

Bernie actions not only hurt SEGA own fans, it made what little 3rd parties SEGA had left give up. Dave Perry dropped support while Wild 9 was meant to be pushing the Saturn to insane levels with low-level Assembly, Edios dropped all support and that meant Ninja going, Fighting Force, Bullfrong dropped Syndicate Wars, EA said by by too, and so did Working Designs


At the time, these were the moves I was hoping and looking for

The White Saturn to have launched in the USA/Pal - Kind of like a new Saturn launch and also getting rid of the horrible black Saturns.

Lobotomy Software - To have been bought by SOA in 1997 and put to work on Half-Life port to the DC and SOA getting Exhumed II for the DC too.

WD Investment - Not just paying for their E3 stand but a cash injection, helping them with their already planned Saturn games, but also SEGA and WD working together on Brining Grandia to the West and looking for both to bring Sakua Wars III to the DC and it also would have been nice to see the Phantasy Star Saturn collection SEGA Ages collection, Prince Crown brought over

4- Meg Cart - To have been brought to the West by SEGA for games like Quake and Duke Nukem 3D to also have had the option to use them for even better ports. SEGA to have picked up Metal Slug, X-Men Vs Streetfighter, SS and KOF collections - Games that in most cases already had a English option

Shining Force III - Should have just kept the translation team on and brought over the rest of the series over.

Deep Fear - Moved to DC production.

Dead Or Alive - Picked up by SEGA America and brought to the West.

SEGA Europe - Should have stepped in and bought Lemon/Zyrinx when Scavenger hit money problems. Getting a fab talented team ready for DC production.

Leynos
08-20-2018, 02:24 PM
DO NOT DO THIS! NO! No we are not having an SOA talk again. Kill it now. Create your own topic but none of this again. Every topic about SEGA in the 90s does not need to turn into SOA who said or did what.

bultje112
08-20-2018, 02:34 PM
saturn hardware was sold at a loss in it's entire run. there has been an interview recently with sega's hardware developer at the time confirming this. I think it was even posted on this forum.

Team Andromeda
08-20-2018, 02:47 PM
DO NOT DO THIS! NO! No we are not having an SOA talk again. Kill it now. Create your own topic but none of this again. Every topic about SEGA in the 90s does not need to turn into SOA who said or did what.
Well, stop starting a topic on what would do if the boss of SEGA. Being boss of SEGA means you would have to deal with your satellite studios with-in your group.


there has been an interview recently with sega's hardware developer at the time confirming this.


Well, I saw interviews with SEGA Europe Andy Mee, and Shoichiro Irimajiri stating otherwise... Irimajiri-san told a Saturn mag (not the UK) told how he was pleased to pass on the entire cost savings of the new white Saturn to the consumer and Andy Mee when asked why SEGA Europe hadn't passed on the Big price cut of the White Saturn the UK consumer, with the Easter UK price cut and he said that with the High Yen and cost of the Hardware SEGA Europe was selling the Model 2 Saturn at cost price.

Leynos
08-20-2018, 03:10 PM
SEGA not SOA.

Team Andromeda
08-20-2018, 03:49 PM
SEGA not SOA.

And if you were the Boss of 'SEGA' then you have to deal with SOA, SOE and get the people in place and look to approve and sign off all their plans...

Leynos
08-20-2018, 03:52 PM
You know you are being difficult and not putting up with it. Not playing your game. I'd be fine with anyone else discussing SOA but not you. You turn it into a mess. We have heard your views on SOA enough. Anyone else is fine because they won't shit post the topic.

gamevet
08-20-2018, 11:16 PM
saturn hardware was sold at a loss in it's entire run. there has been an interview recently with sega's hardware developer at the time confirming this. I think it was even posted on this forum.

Yep!

Sony know this, and guess what? Bernie was a team member at Sony when the strategy to take out the Saturn was put together. There was waaaayyyy to much silicon under the hood for Sega to get into a price war with the PlayStation. Sony priced them right out of the market.

Anyone that believes that hardware that was $400 to manufacture in 1995 could somehow magically be price reduced to $249 a year and a half later, needs to pass what they are smoking around. It's got to be some really good stuff.

Team Andromeda
08-21-2018, 01:24 AM
Yep!

Anyone that believes that hardware that was $400 to manufacture in 1995 could somehow magically be price reduced to $249 a year and a half later, needs to pass what they are smoking around. It's got to be some really good stuff.

Just because SEGA lost money does not mean it was selling the Saturn at a lost and it also wasn't untill the 2nd quater of 1997 that SEGA ever started to post a loss . Nokia business plan is based on selling each phone at a profit , it still lost millions, Atari and Commodore had to sell the ST, Falcon and Amiga at a profit they made no money off the game sales or developers royalties and guess what they lost million and millions because they couldn't get the market share latter on . That's what hurt SEGA more than anything with the Saturn. Also, It wasn't until over 2 years that SEGA Japan was able to slash the price of the Saturn with the launch of the White Saturn, which SOJ said it was selling at cost price, same went for SOE. And sure SONY America played a Price war, but SONY Japan wasn't happy with that and one of the reasons why Olaf Olafsson had to walk, but that was America.
Most consoles back in those days would see their price slashed after a year going 2 years in the console manufacturing lifespan, not least SEGA with its 16 bit Hardware like the Mega CD


So I really don't buy that in 1996 with the Model 2 Saturn SEGA was making a Huge lost with each unit sold, it was the complete lack of market share that was the main reason for SEGA losing loads and then in 1998 the $500 it cost SEGA to develop the DC and put money aside for PR and games development. The DC was the system that SEGA was losing money hand over fist and the reason why it had to suddenly stop production, something SEGA never did with the Mega CD, 32X or the Saturn

gamevet
08-21-2018, 02:25 AM
It's LOSS!

bultje112
08-21-2018, 04:44 AM
Yep!

Sony know this, and guess what? Bernie was a team member at Sony when the strategy to take out the Saturn was put together. There was waaaayyyy to much silicon under the hood for Sega to get into a price war with the PlayStation. Sony priced them right out of the market.

Anyone that believes that hardware that was $400 to manufacture in 1995 could somehow magically be price reduced to $249 a year and a half later, needs to pass what they are smoking around. It's got to be some really good stuff.

actually I think the hardware in 1995 was already much more than 400$. the saturn was sold at a loss then as well. probably 450-500 to manufacture 1 saturn in bulk.

gamevet
08-21-2018, 09:46 AM
Thereís also import tariffs. Add another 10% to that.

Team Andromeda
08-23-2018, 11:27 AM
It's LOSS!

How much was SEGA losing per Saturn in 1996 then?. Not that A) Sega Japan would be paying import tarrfis for the White Saturn and B) that WTO tarrfis are set at %10 for consoles between the USA and Japan or that is was a issue for only SEGA given Sony, SEGA and Nintendo are Japanese corps...

zyrobs
08-23-2018, 01:55 PM
Hideki Sato said in an interview they were losing $100 per unit.

gamevet
08-23-2018, 04:10 PM
How much was SEGA losing per Saturn in 1996 then?. Not that A) Sega Japan would be paying import tarrfis for the White Saturn and B) that WTO tarrfis are set at %10 for consoles between the USA and Japan or that is was a issue for only SEGA given Sony, SEGA and Nintendo are Japanese corps...

The Japanese white Saturn price has nothing to do with the North American Saturnís price, that would be 10% more because of import tariffs, even with reduced scale units.

cleeg
08-23-2018, 05:11 PM
I think the DC controller is good bar two extra face buttons. You can often get by in many games that require a right thumbstick with decent analog triggers, which we have here.

With hindsight, all impossibilities aside, we'd have to have had a DVD drive.

I'd have liked bigger memory cards too, they just don't hold quite enough for my liking.

Team Andromeda
08-24-2018, 04:33 AM
The Japanese white Saturn price has nothing to do with the North American Saturnís price, that would be 10% more because of import tariffs, even with reduced scale units.

I did say I have an interview with SEGA's would be then president Irimajiri-san (who launched the White Saturn) saying how he was pleased to pass on all the cost savings of the model to the consumer and that 80,000 units sold out in a single day (the great days when SOJ was beating SONY in Japan) . I also have an Interview with SEGA Europe's then head of Marketing Andy Mee... Who when asked why the UK consumer didn't get as bigger price cut on the new Model Saturn to that of the Japanese with the model Saturn: To which Andy said due to the vaule of Yen, that was the cost price of the system. So If SEGA Europe and Japan weren't making a loss with each new Model Saturn sold, I find it hard to belive SOA would be to be. And I know of no gaming system in 90's or early 2000's.. where after 2 years of being in manufature, didn't see huge price cuts to the hardware base price. It was also said that only mugs or the die hards who would paythe full price of Hardware on launch

I think, too many people wrongly associate SEGA's losses of $40 million in the 2nd quarter of 1997 and then its massive losses over $200 million dollars in 1998 with selling Hardware at a loss. When I would think that was more to do with lack of market share (read next to none) and spending half a billion dollars on DC production. SEGA never instantly stopped Production of the 32X or Saturn like they did with DC. That tells me the DC was where SEGA was making huge losses on each DC unit sold and couldn't afford to carry on... That is why I think the DVD was a non starter for the DC. SEGA couldn't afford selling the DC with a GB Drive, a DVD drive would have made SEGA losses for each DC unit sold, even higher .

Mega Drive Bowlsey
08-24-2018, 11:20 AM
Sega perhaps couldn't have afforded to have a built-in DVD player in the Dreamcast as part of the hardware, but I remember in the final desperate months of the Dreamcast's life, Sega of Europe started shipping Dreamcast consoles to the shop I worked at, along with a free DVD player strapped to the side of the box! It was all Sega could think to do in order to compete with the PS2. As soon as I saw that act of desperation I knew the game was up for my beloved Sega.

gamevet
08-25-2018, 11:49 PM
I did say I have an interview with SEGA's would be then president Irimajiri-san (who launched the White Saturn) saying how he was pleased to pass on all the cost savings of the model to the consumer and that 80,000 units sold out in a single day (the great days when SOJ was beating SONY in Japan) . I also have an Interview with SEGA Europe's then head of Marketing Andy Mee... Who when asked why the UK consumer didn't get as bigger price cut on the new Model Saturn to that of the Japanese with the model Saturn: To which Andy said due to the vaule of Yen, that was the cost price of the system. So If SEGA Europe and Japan weren't making a loss with each new Model Saturn sold, I find it hard to belive SOA would be to be. And I know of no gaming system in 90's or early 2000's.. where after 2 years of being in manufature, didn't see huge price cuts to the hardware base price. It was also said that only mugs or the die hards who would paythe full price of Hardware on launch

The only console you can really compare the Saturn to was the PS3. It was way too expensive for well over 3 years, before Sony could finally break even, when they could finally downscale the hardware to less silicon and the price of their BR drives came down.

Your boy Andy is also giving you a big old clue, why Europe couldn't match the price of the Japanese Saturn. The Yen was much stronger than the British pound.


I think, too many people wrongly associate SEGA's losses of $40 million in the 2nd quarter of 1997 and then its massive losses over $200 million dollars in 1998 with selling Hardware at a loss. When I would think that was more to do with lack of market share (read next to none) and spending half a billion dollars on DC production. *SEGA never instantly stopped Production of the 32X or Saturn like they did with DC. That tells me the DC was where SEGA was making huge losses on each DC unit sold and couldn't afford to carry on... That is why I think the DVD was a non starter for the DC. SEGA couldn't afford selling the DC with a GB Drive, a DVD drive would have made SEGA losses for each DC unit sold, even higher .

It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. North America had Genesis hardware and software sales that were keeping the losses of the Saturn at bay. SOJ killed off the Genesis a good year too early and gambled on Saturn software to keep profits going. They were wrong. http://segatastic.blogspot.com/2009/12/mega-drive-sales-figures-update.html


Sega - US Hardware and Software Revenue in millions of dollars (including Sega Genesis, Sega CD, and Sega 32X, not including Sega Nomad, Sega CDX, JVC X'Eye, the Genesis 3 or software sold by Majesco in 1997-1999)

1989 - $182
1990 - $280
1991 - $586
1992 - $1,151
1993 - $1,938
1994 - $1,812 (End of 16-bit era Total: $5,949)
1995 - $812
1996 - $294
1997 - $180


The United State's 2nd quarter for fiscal year 1997 began in January of 1997, not April. When Sega has a bunch of unsold Saturn units and software, that were paid for sitting in warehouses, they are posted as a loss. The company has not earned back the expenses of producing those consoles. So, along comes the 3rd quarter, when Sega is now forced to sell those unsold units at an even bigger loss. Incoming revenue has now shrunk even further, and the operation expenses are now taking their toll on the company. That is where you start seeing even more losses for the company. Why would SOA continue to support a sinking ship?

*That's a bunch of BS. The 32X was canned less than 2 years (they pretty much stopped making them after launch) after it was introduced. The DC had over 1.5 million units sitting in warehouses when Sega stopped making additional units; that's $223.5 million of revenue not earned from the sales of those unsold consoles, and that's before you start adding in software that isn't being sold either.

Team Andromeda
08-26-2018, 04:56 AM
Sega perhaps couldn't have afforded to have a built-in DVD player in the Dreamcast as part of the hardware, but I remember in the final desperate months of the Dreamcast's life, Sega of Europe started shipping Dreamcast consoles to the shop I worked at, along with a free DVD player strapped to the side of the box! It was all Sega could think to do in order to compete with the PS2. As soon as I saw that act of desperation I knew the game was up for my beloved Sega.


The DVD wasn't free, That deal cost more than a Standard DC set up and it was like Mail order shops like Gameplay that were pushing the deal. In a sense, it sort of back up SEGA thinking: that consumer DVD drives would come down massively in price. So in Japan it would have helped a bit (in the short term) in the West I very much doubt it. I used my Mega CD has a CD music player and back on the system launch CD players cost a fortune, but it didn't take long for the prices to come down and it was games that counted more ..

Team Andromeda
08-26-2018, 05:12 AM
The only console you can really compare the Saturn to was the PS3. It was way too expensive for well over 3 years, before Sony could finally break even, when they could finally downscale the hardware to less silicon and the price of their BR drives came down.
.

SONY was making a loss off the PS3 for far more than 3 years. I can't think of any console maker that didn't cut the price of its hardware by at least £100 after 2 years of the system being manufacture. Now I saw the head of SOJ and the head of SEGA Europe PR both say they were able to sell the new Model Saturn and cost price, so I would find it hard to think that SOA couldn't either, you may well have a point of the foruced E3 price cut, but that was short term and the White Saturn was coming online soon

Like I said, SEGA never instantly stopped the manufacture of the Saturn (like SEGA had to with the DC) and in the years of developing the Saturn and the year after the system's launch (usually when you lose the most on the hardware and spend the most on R&D) SEGA profits were Huge and so big it could even afford to throw a 100 Million to Atari in a pointless out of court settlement, a big contrast to that for the year before and after the lauch of the DC

But the time of the White Saturn I would put to you, SEGA didn't make a loss on each unit , it was the lack of Marketshare in the West and the low take up of Model 3 in Japan and the decline of Arcades in the West that were really hurting SEGA in 1997/8. One can also look at SEGA Arcade to cage how much money SEGA must habe been losing on each DC sold. The ST-V board cost a hell of a lot less than the NA@MI board and yet even taking in account for inflalation the DC was launched at a far lower price than to the Saturn. SEGA never stopped manfacturing the NA@MI board (where its sold at a profit) just the DC. Those moves tell me, that SEGA were bleeding money on each DC sold. So thats why I think talk of a DVD drive is a non starter really, the losses would have been even more and unlike SONY.. who Studio's would make money off DVD and BluRay sales and also had the Japanse gov where it said it would step in, in SONY needed cash to stay alive.


SEGA had none of that back up and wouldn't even get any extra revenue off DVD sales.

gamevet
08-26-2018, 12:06 PM
SONY was making a loss off the PS3 for far more than 3 years. I can't think of any console maker that didn't cut the price of its hardware by at least £100 after 2 years of the system being manufacture. Now I saw the head of SOJ and the head of SEGA Europe PR both say they were able to sell the new Model Saturn and cost price, so I would find it hard to think that SOA couldn't either, you may well have a point of the foruced E3 price cut, but that was short term and the White Saturn was coming online soon

Sony started making a profit on the PS3 in 2009.

Like I'd said before, your buddy Andy talked about the value of the Yen vs. the british pound. The Yen was much stronger than the US dollar back then, so, if Japan priced the Saturn at $149 in their country, that could equal around $180 in North America, and that's before you include shipping and import tariffs.


Like I said, SEGA never instantly stopped the manufacture of the Saturn (like SEGA had to with the DC) and in the years of developing the Saturn and the year after the system's launch (usually when you lose the most on the hardware and spend the most on R&D) SEGA profits were Huge and so big it could even afford to throw a 100 Million to Atari in a pointless out of court settlement, a big contrast to that for the year before and after the lauch of the DC.

They stopped manufacturing it for the West, where unsold hardware finally had to be liquidated in 1998 for the low price of $50 a unit. And like the Saturn, the unsold DC hardware was liquidated in 2002.


But the time of the White Saturn I would put to you, SEGA didn't make a loss on each unit , it was the lack of Marketshare in the West and the low take up of Model 3 in Japan and the decline of Arcades in the West that were really hurting SEGA in 1997/8. One can also look at SEGA Arcade to cage how much money SEGA must habe been losing on each DC sold. The ST-V board cost a hell of a lot less than the NA@MI board and yet even taking in account for inflalation the DC was launched at a far lower price than to the Saturn. SEGA never stopped manfacturing the NA@MI board (where its sold at a profit) just the DC. Those moves tell me, that SEGA were bleeding money on each DC sold. So thats why I think talk of a DVD drive is a non starter really, the losses would have been even more and unlike SONY.. who Studio's would make money off DVD and BluRay sales and also had the Japanse gov where it said it would step in, in SONY needed cash to stay alive.


Again, the value of the Yen and SOA sitting on unsold product. Your fixation with Japan doesn't change the situation for the rest of the world. Just like SOJ cutting away 16-bit profit by canning the Genesis/Mega-Drive, because it wasn't do well in their region.

Team Andromeda
08-26-2018, 05:16 PM
Do you ever check the so called facts you post. SONY was lossing money on each PS 3 sold for 4 years, hardly 2009

https://kotaku.com/5575994/after-nearly-four-years-the-ps3-finally-turns-a-profit

SEGA stopped production of the DC worldwide in 2001 and wouldnt make any more SYSTEMS for all regions, yet it still kept on making NA@MI boards. With regards to the Saturn, I talked about, not only about Japan, but also SEGA Europe, so its wasn't just about Japan.

gamevet
08-26-2018, 09:59 PM
Sony not making profits for 4 (3 years, 7 months) years doesn't help your argument. It just further cements what has been said, that a console that has a lot of silicon (see Saturn) can't just start being inexpensive to manufacture in less than 3 years.

NAOMI has nothing to do with the DC, other than sharing most of the same hardware. It's not like Sega was manufacturing millions of those boards for arcades.

Team Andromeda
08-27-2018, 08:59 AM
SONY was losing money over the PS3 for over 3 years and to make out that NA@MI was nothing to do with the DC is one of the silliest comments I have read. But I guess I have to leave it at that as no doubt I'll be getting a warning and told to stay on Topic.

Leynos
08-27-2018, 05:17 PM
For fuck's sake can we get back on topic? If not can we at least let the topic die? Please. One or the other?

gamevet
08-27-2018, 06:21 PM
SONY was losing money over the PS3 for over 3 years and to make out that NA@MI was nothing to do with the DC is one of the silliest comments I have read. But I guess I have to leave it at that as no doubt I'll be getting a warning and told to stay on Topic.

No, dumbass. NAOMI has twice the memory for sound, graphics and system. The games arenít constantly being loaded from the GD ROM either, they are fully loaded into system memory. NAOMI was meant to be sold at a huge markup, while a console is sold at razor blade prices to sell the blades. Silly fool!

Donít worry SegataS, Iíve beaten the dead horse enough with Mr. Ignorant.

Leynos
08-27-2018, 07:37 PM
^ You're fine. TA always has to shit everywhere in a topic.

Team Andromeda
08-28-2018, 06:05 AM
No, dumbass. NAOMI has twice the memory for sound, graphics and system.

NA@MI has 4 times the sound RAM, we can't even get that part right. You mean to say Neo Geo CD wasn't based on Neo Geo Hardware because it got more RAM and doesn't load off Cart, that PS 4 and XBox One isn't based on PC hardware, that GFX cards from the same line can't from the same tech because one may have more V Ram?
Only you, can make out that NA@MI Hardware wasn't based off SEGA home Consumer Hardware that was the Dreamcast, everybody else knows that to be the case as SEGA looked to bring down the costs Arcade and join its consumer and Arcade teams into one (very much like how NCL merged its handheld and consumer teams and tech)
Yes, NA@MI was sold a profit and showed how much SEGA must have been making a loss on each DC sold, given each NA@MI board, even at the time of UnderDerfeat (2005) cost over £1,000 per board, that was just for the board alone. I believe an ST-V board, in contrast, cost £700 per board at the time of Die Hard Arcade 1997.

So like I said Saturn tech was a lot cheaper to sell even in the Arcades and by the time of the White Saturn SEGA Japan and SEGA 'Europe' were able to sell in at cost price, with the Dreamcast that was never the case and adding a $400 to $500 DVD drive to DC in 1998 would have pretty much killed SEGA there imo



I'll just love you know, why you can go off topic and also insult people and have no issues...

axel
08-28-2018, 04:28 PM
NA@MI has 4 times the sound RAM, we can't even get that part right. You mean to say Neo Geo CD wasn't based on Neo Geo Hardware because it got more RAM and doesn't load off Cart, that PS 4 and XBox One isn't based on PC hardware, that GFX cards from the same line can't from the same tech because one may have more V Ram?
Only you, can make out that NA@MI Hardware wasn't based off SEGA home Consumer Hardware that was the Dreamcast, everybody else knows that to be the case as SEGA looked to bring down the costs Arcade and join its consumer and Arcade teams into one (very much like how NCL merged its handheld and consumer teams and tech)
Yes, NA@MI was sold a profit and showed how much SEGA must have been making a loss on each DC sold, given each NA@MI board, even at the time of UnderDerfeat (2005) cost over £1,000 per board, that was just for the board alone. I believe an ST-V board, in contrast, cost £700 per board at the time of Die Hard Arcade 1997.

So like I said Saturn tech was a lot cheaper to sell even in the Arcades and by the time of the White Saturn SEGA Japan and SEGA 'Europe' were able to sell in at cost price, with the Dreamcast that was never the case and adding a $400 to $500 DVD drive to DC in 1998 would have pretty much killed SEGA there imo

I'll just love you know, why you can go off topic and also insult people and have no issues...

Doesn't Under Defeat also have an extra 512 MB of RAM too? Would think that has to drive up the cost a bit.

gamevet
08-28-2018, 08:51 PM
A lot of the NAOMI titles had lots of memory, which wasnís cheap. There were also upgraded graphics chips in later models. Why he thinks that has anything to do with the cost of the Dreamcast just shows how out of touch the dude is.

TA, I didn't read your whole post, because I've had enough of your shit. You got called a dumb ass, because you called my comment silly. Don't go slapping the horse on the ass and then act all innocent after you got kicked.

BonusKun
08-29-2018, 08:31 AM
So I'm handing out cards now because I'm downright sick of this off topic shit. TA I've told you multiple times to stop and you think I'm just not gonna do anything about it. The next off topic fucking post I see from you anywhere on the boards from you is going to be a time out.

Think really hard before you say something you'll regret later on.

Team Andromeda
08-29-2018, 10:09 AM
So I'm handing out cards now because I'm downright sick of this off topic shit. TA I've told you multiple times to stop and you think I'm just not gonna do anything about it. The next off topic fucking post I see from you anywhere on the boards from you is going to be a time out.

Think really hard before you say something you'll regret later on.

If one was head of SEGA in 1997 wouldn;t you not have to deal with SEGA Europe, Japan, and America and also have to deal with the cost of not just the consumer business, but also the Arcades. Both of which in SEGA was active in and developing hardware in 1997; So at a slight loss in how raising those areas, is going off topic.
But Sorry away ...

BonusKun
08-29-2018, 10:42 AM
If one was head of SEGA in 1997 wouldn;t you not have to deal with SEGA Europe, Japan, and America and also have to deal with the cost of not just the consumer business, but also the Arcades. Both of which in SEGA was active in and developing hardware in 1997; So at a slight loss in how raising those areas, is going off topic.
But Sorry away ...

You've been asked to keep it on topic but you've multiple times have not listened. We know how you feel about Bernie Stolar. It's fine we understand. A lot of us still like the guy for what he's accomplished. Let's leave it at that and move on.

Team Andromeda
08-30-2018, 03:22 AM
Fine, But I actually don't 'Hate' Bernie at all. I dislike the way he handled the transition. But he and his team did a much better Job with the DC launch than SOE or SOJ after the mess he was left. But ok that's another topic and one shall move on

Benjamin
09-09-2018, 10:58 AM
Dreamcast console: I'd pretty much leave it as is. It's got a great design and a lot of power at a low $199 price point. I'd possibly lose Windows CE due to how few games ultimately took advantage of it, assuming that the licensing fee cost a fair amount. I'd much rather see those savings moved towards including a DVD drive. Even a small price increase would be worth the benefit seeing how DVD was a driving force in PS2 adoption early on.

Dreamcast controller: No VMUs. I like them but don't believe the feature set is worth the cost. (I'd be willing to revisit the concept if the Dreamcast became a huge success and Sega could release a better quality portable which could run older Sega games -- like a cheaper, weaker Game Boy Micro.) One slot for memory cards (Seaman microphone would be a small corded device using a controller port). Wire comes out the bottom. Revise the analog stick so that it wouldn't get rubbed smooth from play.

Dreamcast marketing: The advertising was so much better than what we saw for the Saturn, but I remember myself and others wishing the commercials showed actual gameplay footage. I would aim to better promote the best Dreamcast games regardless of who made them, too -- more ads for Soul Calibur, Grandia 2, etc. -- the same way Microsoft does today for Xbox.

Dreamcast launch: The Dreamcast enjoyed a hugely successful launch in the USA, so I wouldn't change much. I do think Sega should have pushed out an enhanced Panzer Dragoon Saga/trilogy along with the Shining Force III trilogy at launch. Could have been done relatively cheaply and fill that RPG hole which would take some time to properly address. The console also would have shipped with a pack-in game, Sega Smash Pack Vol. 1., to add valhelp reacquaint fans with Sega franchises.

Dreamcast games: The real sticking point in the USA was losing EA (even though 2K filled the void well) and MGS2 hype. Sega needed EA, Konami, Namco, and Square on board, so I'd do whatever it would take to get that to happen. Better third party support would have further legitimized the console in all nations, and debt aside, I think that's what really hurt the Dreamcast down the stretch. I'd also kill Shenmue and fund a few AAA RPGs/Zelda clones from it.

bultje112
09-09-2018, 12:21 PM
what? I own at least 50 games that were only on dreamcast because of windows ce.

Benjamin
09-09-2018, 05:02 PM
what? I own at least 50 games that were only on dreamcast because of windows ce.

Then you have basically them all...

https://segaretro.org/Windows_CE

And I stand by saying that it wouldn't be missed nor would its absence mean that the games couldn't be made without it. We'd have seen Sega Rally 2 CE or otherwise.

bultje112
09-10-2018, 05:04 AM
yes I probably do own all since I own almost all western games but that is still 20% of dreamcasts games library. a huge number. I doubt without ce we would've gotten ports at all from games like railroad tycoon gold, which is an amazing game!

Team Andromeda
09-10-2018, 07:28 AM
yes I probably do own all since I own almost all western games but that is still 20% of dreamcasts games library. a huge number. I doubt without ce we would've gotten ports at all from games like railroad tycoon gold, which is an amazing game!


Agreed and imo WinCE wasn't used enough, would have loved to see more PC ports on the Dreamcast ( I was hoping for the LucasArts Point and Click games jumping over) . More a waste of money and resources was trying to develop 2 systems at the same time with Dural and Black Belt.That shouldn't have happened (more so when Japan would always win out) and I would have liked to see SEGA gone with the Power PC CPU.
I felt that was more powerful and would have helped more with the Model 3 ports.

QuickSciFi
09-10-2018, 07:31 PM
Cases... CD Jewel case perfection
Launch lineup... Wouldn't change a thing
Dreamcast 2.0 (not next gen, just one with DVD capability)... A must!
Revival of all the established IPs... Also a must
Genesis compilations... You know it!
Dual analog sticks... Definitely acceptable to bring later on, as the OG PS1 had zero of them.
Shenmue 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 + Yu Suzuki as the face of Sega... I'd give him honorary tenure for life and his children after.
Yuji Naka... Also tenure for life and freedom to roam as he pleases creatively.
IM2... Yes please.
VMU 2.0... You know it!
Game Gear 2... Yes! And it will have VMU support.
Dreamcast 2 HD... 5 years down the line.

Leynos
09-11-2018, 03:36 AM
^ So, you would bankrupt SEGA even worse than they ended up being.

gamevet
09-11-2018, 12:16 PM
Go out in a blaze of glory!

Leynos
09-11-2018, 12:59 PM
Go out in a blaze of glory!

Now I have Bon Jovi stuck in my head lol.

gamevet
09-11-2018, 02:46 PM
:lol:

Mega Drive Bowlsey
09-15-2018, 05:35 PM
Cases... CD Jewel case perfection
Launch lineup... Wouldn't change a thing
Dreamcast 2.0 (not next gen, just one with DVD capability)... A must!
Revival of all the established IPs... Also a must
Genesis compilations... You know it!
Dual analog sticks... Definitely acceptable to bring later on, as the OG PS1 had zero of them.
Shenmue 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 + Yu Suzuki as the face of Sega... I'd give him honorary tenure for life and his children after.
Yuji Naka... Also tenure for life and freedom to roam as he pleases creatively.
IM2... Yes please.
VMU 2.0... You know it!
Game Gear 2... Yes! And it will have VMU support.
Dreamcast 2 HD... 5 years down the line.

Yes to everything you put forward! You've got my vote. ;)

Blades
09-22-2018, 07:22 PM
Yuji Naka... Also tenure for life and freedom to roam as he pleases creatively.

Isn't this what he had?

Sega 1995: make us a new Sonic game for our new Saturn.
Naka: No, I'm going to make a game about a purple jester who lives in your dreams.
Sega 1995: Ok.

Leynos
09-22-2018, 07:43 PM
Then he made a Wii game where you hit the cardboard box it came with to control it. Where is he now? Naka is nada. Actually, if I remember right he joined his co-creator of Sonic at Square.

Team Andromeda
09-23-2018, 03:57 PM
Isn't this what he had?

Sega 1995: make us a new Sonic game for our new Saturn.
Naka: No, I'm going to make a game about a purple jester who lives in your dreams.
Sega 1995: Ok.

Kats Sato now paints a light on what actually happened. SEGA America was entrusted with Sonic and to bring it to the 32bit systems. Kats confirmed Sonic X actually started life as a Mega Drive title, before it was decided to move it to 32Bit production. You could see the thinking, have SOA state of the art team, make Sonic and to develop the game in the market Sonic sold the best in and where his appeal was the biggest it made sense
Shame then STI simple weren't up to the task and their 32bit pile lines all over the shop. Kats confirmed the Sonic X game was terrible and that's why it was scrapped and why Sonic was given back to SEGA Japan to develop.

If I was boss of SEGA at the time. I would have made Yoji Ishii actual boss of the Sonic Team and not give the roll to Naka-san. Naka-san was a genius programmer, not a great team leader. Soon as one saw STI were all over the shop and not up to the task and where their own engine wasn't even good enough.
I would have given the Sonic Project to either Travelers Tails or Real Time Associates to develop

axel
09-24-2018, 02:50 AM
Isn't this what he had?

Sega 1995: make us a new Sonic game for our new Saturn.
Naka: No, I'm going to make a game about a purple jester who lives in your dreams.
Sega 1995: Ok.

Sounds about right to me.

QuickSciFi
09-29-2018, 02:56 PM
Isn't this what he had?

Sega 1995: make us a new Sonic game for our new Saturn.
Naka: No, I'm going to make a game about a purple jester who lives in your dreams.
Sega 1995: Ok.

If you listen to Yuji Naka's personal accounts. He wasnt very happy with Sega at the time. His ambitions were not met. He wanted more projects.

Moirai
10-05-2018, 08:10 PM
If i was sega i wouldve bought travelers tales and made Burton a full time saturn developer. Heh

bultje112
10-07-2018, 04:18 PM
they should've bought camelot no matter what in 97/98.

Team Andromeda
10-08-2018, 05:07 AM
they should've bought camelot no matter what in 97/98.

I doubt Camelot would have agreed with that, after all the main members looked to break away from SEGA. What SEGA Japan really should have done is backed SF III Pt 3 more. Invited the team to the DC developers conference in Japan (which Camelot said was a kick in the teeth to them and when they knew they wouldn't be working for SEGA again).

SEGA really should have bought Core (before they went to US Gold for pennies) and looked to save and buy Lobotomy and also Scavenger in 97/8

zyrobs
10-09-2018, 05:12 PM
If you listen to Yuji Naka's personal accounts. He wasnt very happy with Sega at the time. His ambitions were not met. He wanted more projects.

Yuji Naka is an asshole whose ego became overly inflated after the success of Sonic. They should've booted him back in 1992.

Blades
10-10-2018, 11:41 AM
Didn't he quit after the first Sonic?

Gryson
10-10-2018, 01:06 PM
Didn't he quit after the first Sonic?

Yes, he quit. He almost went to Nintendo after that. Then he got a call from his friend Mark Cerny who invited him to STI. He agreed to work for STI as long as he wouldn't have to make another Sonic game. Then Sonic was released and it was a huge hit and Sega of America was like, "OK, get to work on the sequel!" and he almost quit again.

Full story here: http://shmuplations.com/sonic/

Blades
10-12-2018, 08:46 AM
Lol, I wouldn't want to work with Naka.

Moirai
10-12-2018, 03:41 PM
Naka was an asshole for not letting his nights engine be used for sonic xtreme.

Gryson
10-12-2018, 07:31 PM
Naka was an asshole for not letting his nights engine be used for sonic xtreme.

You've got your facts wrong - it was just a level editor that they wanted to use (read more here (http://info.sonicretro.org/Mike_Wallis_interview_by_PACHUKA)). It wouldn't have made a damn difference, either, considering the game had been in development hell for 2+ years at that point. Anybody actively trying to prevent the release of X-Treme at that point should probably be called a hero.

bultje112
10-13-2018, 04:13 AM
Naka was an asshole for not letting his nights engine be used for sonic xtreme.

no he was right. that game was going to be a disaster and ruin his creation sonic before naka left and sega ruined it anyway.

Team Andromeda
10-13-2018, 07:02 AM
no he was right. that game was going to be a disaster and ruin his creation sonic before naka left and sega ruined it anyway.

Yep, the game was a mess and Kate Sato told Retrogamer the real reason it was cancelled was because it was rubbish. Nearly 3 years work on 4 different platforms and not a single stage to the game completed. SOA was a joke in the 32bit days

zyrobs
10-13-2018, 03:35 PM
You've got your facts wrong - it was just a level editor that they wanted to use (read more here (http://info.sonicretro.org/Mike_Wallis_interview_by_PACHUKA)). It wouldn't have made a damn difference, either, considering the game had been in development hell for 2+ years at that point. Anybody actively trying to prevent the release of X-Treme at that point should probably be called a hero.

They've been developing concepts and game engines for 2+ years, you know, the technology behind a game. But they didn't have an actual plan for a game that is playable and fun. That's why I think it would've ended up as a mess. STI was making demos and tech for Megadrive, 32x, Nvidia NV1, then just started on the Saturn when word came down that they need to make a full game.

It's why they asked for the Nights engine, so they can get cranking on making the game instead of still working on the game engine.

Gryson
10-13-2018, 04:27 PM
It's also worth pointing out that by mid to late 1996, when this was taking place, Yuji Naka had already started working on "Saturn Sonic." Of course, that would eventually be shifted to the Dreamcast, and the engine they developed would be included in Sonic Jam. But in addition to his very negative attitude about STI working on a Sonic game without him/Sonic Team, he also likely didn't want them to release a competing Sonic game.

Team Andromeda
10-14-2018, 07:41 AM
It's also worth pointing out that by mid to late 1996, when this was taking place, Yuji Naka had already started working on "Saturn Sonic." Of course, that would eventually be shifted to the Dreamcast, and the engine they developed would be included in Sonic Jam. But in addition to his very negative attitude about STI working on a Sonic game without him/Sonic Team, he also likely didn't want them to release a competing Sonic game.

Naka was a bit of a child, but he had no say on what happened with Sonic IP and anyone who knows or knew anything about SEGA Japan, would have known (and know at the time) the AM or Consumer teams never shared their tech/tools even each other (never mind an outside team) even if would have make perfect sense to do so.

Like AM#2 sharing their VF 2 code with AM#3 or the Sega Rally CS team sharing their code with the AM#2 and CRI team handing the Touring Car port to the Saturn. It never happened and still doesn't happen much to this day under SEGA Japan.

Sonic X project was just a mess from the start to the finish (and to leave Naka of it for a sec) beefore the request to use the NiGHTS tools set came in, the game had already been developed for 2 years on 3 different systems and had 2 different lines of the same team each working in separate parts of the same game.

Yet, after all that, not a single stage (ever mind Level) had been completed. The whole project was mess from start to finish.

If one looks at SOA handling of its pipelines for the 32Bit age, it is mess. So many bad games developed, produced for the 32X and Saturn. Thel mismanagement of STI, Multimedia STUDIO'S, the bonehead calls of spending nearly $6 million on Scared Pools (to be the most amazing FMV game made yet) and way over that for Mr Bones(SOA told Gamfan it was their biggest ever 32Bit project) all after the FMV fad had clearly had its day.

SOJ Staff had much the same issues to that of SOA. They had to be ready to develop for various 32bit platforms, the Jupiter, the ST-V board, the Saturn the 32X and also the Mega Drive. Yey SOJ were able to develpe on all the systems (bar the dropped Jupiter, which was just a Saturn with out a CD-Rom drive anyway). SOJ simply had better producers and had their 32bit piple lines up to a decent enough level.

About the only highlights from SEGA America in the 32bit age was a couple of nice sports games, Bug 1 and II and some nice stuff from Sega Interactive. SEGA America would have better off giving Sonic X to Real Time Associates or better yet Travels Tails to develop, TT would have done a far better job imo

zyrobs
10-15-2018, 09:34 AM
Dude, turn on your spellcheck.

Leynos
10-17-2018, 02:09 AM
Dude, turn on your spellcheck.
It's pretty distracting, isn't it?

Blades
10-23-2018, 11:06 PM
Naka was a bit of a child, but he had no say on what happened with Sonic IP and anyone who knows or knew anything about SEGA Japan, would have known (and know at the time) the AM or Consumer teams never shared their tech/tools even each other (never mind an outside team) even if would have make perfect sense to do so.

Like AM#2 sharing their VF 2 code with AM#3 or the Sega Rally CS team sharing their code with the AM#2 and CRI team handing the Touring Car port to the Saturn. It never happened and still doesn't happen much to this day under SEGA Japan.

Sonic X project was just a mess from the start to the finish (and to leave Naka of it for a sec) beefore the request to use the NiGHTS tools set came in, the game had already been developed for 2 years on 3 different systems and had 2 different lines of the same team each working in separate parts of the same game.

Yet, after all that, not a single stage (ever mind Level) had been completed. The whole project was mess from start to finish.

If one looks at SOA handling of its pipelines for the 32Bit age, it is mess. So many bad games developed, produced for the 32X and Saturn. Thel mismanagement of STI, Multimedia STUDIO'S, the bonehead calls of spending nearly $6 million on Scared Pools (to be the most amazing FMV game made yet) and way over that for Mr Bones(SOA told Gamfan it was their biggest ever 32Bit project) all after the FMV fad had clearly had its day.

SOJ Staff had much the same issues to that of SOA. They had to be ready to develop for various 32bit platforms, the Jupiter, the ST-V board, the Saturn the 32X and also the Mega Drive. Yey SOJ were able to develpe on all the systems (bar the dropped Jupiter, which was just a Saturn with out a CD-Rom drive anyway). SOJ simply had better producers and had their 32bit piple lines up to a decent enough level.

About the only highlights from SEGA America in the 32bit age was a couple of nice sports games, Bug 1 and II and some nice stuff from Sega Interactive. SEGA America would have better off giving Sonic X to Real Time Associates or better yet Travels Tails to develop, TT would have done a far better job imo

What's interesting about TT is that they didn't develop the 3D sections of Saturn 3D Blast for some reason, those were done by Sonic Team.

Gryson
10-23-2018, 11:22 PM
What's interesting about TT is that they didn't develop the 3D sections of Saturn 3D Blast for some reason, those were done by Sonic Team.

The original game was a collaboration between TT and Sonic Team, though, so probably not so strange.

Blades
10-23-2018, 11:35 PM
^True.

Team Andromeda
10-24-2018, 04:15 AM
What's interesting about TT is that they didn't develop the 3D sections of Saturn 3D Blast for some reason, those were done by Sonic Team.

Iizuka-san confirmed that they were preliminary tests for the planned Project Sonic 3D Saturn title along with Sonic being in Christmas NiGHTS when the team was experimenting with not only how Sonic would look in 3D, but how he would move too. Project Sonic on the Saturn was shaping up to be quite something, its a shame we never got to see it I also think we could have got a rather nice looking 2.5 Sonic game using that Bug II game engine, which really reminds me of Sonic X in parts, more so the PC version of Bug II