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View Full Version : What if people just appreciated the Saturn for how it actually was?



Moirai
01-10-2019, 01:59 AM
In THIS universe. ;)

MrMatthews
01-10-2019, 09:46 AM
Uhttp://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/joeproduct/6063070C-983D-4F32-B0D3-4F8900852F22.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/joeproduct/media/6063070C-983D-4F32-B0D3-4F8900852F22.jpg.html)

Leynos
01-11-2019, 04:28 PM
https://i.imgur.com/95xTwGM.jpg

Moirai
01-13-2019, 04:56 PM
.

me

KitsuneNight
04-03-2019, 12:19 PM
you mean a half decent console that was outgunned by the ps1 and n64 ?

Mega Drive Bowlsey
04-04-2019, 05:12 PM
you mean a half decent console that was outgunned by the ps1 and n64 ?

I wouldn't say that the N64 outgunned the Saturn, certainly not in terms of games anyway, but the PS1? Yep.

Leynos
04-05-2019, 02:34 AM
I wouldn't say that the N64 outgunned the Saturn, certainly not in terms of games anyway, but the PS1? Yep.

It did in consumer appeal. Most people prefer Starfox over Panzer Dragoon and Mario over NiGHTS and OoT over Dark Savior. I'm not saying those are better or worse. Just that they had a wider appeal to the average consumer of the era. If more people saw things for what they were Grandia would be more praised than FFVII. :p

Mega Drive Bowlsey
04-05-2019, 07:48 AM
It did in consumer appeal. Most people prefer Starfox over Panzer Dragoon and Mario over NiGHTS and OoT over Dark Savior. I'm not saying those are better or worse. Just that they had a wider appeal to the average consumer of the era. If more people saw things for what they were Grandia would be more praised than FFVII. :p

The N64 had the advantage in brand recognition when it came to games, but a lot of that is down to Sega shooting themselves in the foot by not making a bona fide Sonic game for the Saturn and for ignoring other huge IP's like Streets of Rage. The most recognisable brand they own in the gaming world and, apart from Sonic R and Sonic Jam which don't count being a spin-off and a compilation, they ignored it on that particular system for reasons known only to themselves. Fuck NiGHTS, Sega should have had Yuji Naka focus solely on a new Sonic game. I'm also one of those who absolutely loved FFVII and played it to death but wasn't particularly grabbed by Grandia, so we'll have to agree to disagree on your last point. ;)

Gryson
04-05-2019, 07:53 AM
The N64 had the advantage in brand recognition when it came to games, but a lot of that is down to Sega shooting themselves in the foot by not making a bona fide Sonic game for the Saturn. The most recognisable brand they own in the gaming world and they ignored it on that particular system for reasons known only to themselves. Fuck NiGHTS, Sega should have had Yuji Naka focus solely on a new Sonic game. I'm also one of those who absolutely loved FFVII and played it to death but wasn't particularly grabbed by Grandia, so we'll have to agree to disagree on your last point. ;)

The reasons are pretty well documented at this point!

Mega Drive Bowlsey
04-05-2019, 07:57 AM
The reasons are pretty well documented at this point!

There was never a satisfactory reason given as far as I'm concerned. Hindsight is a wonderful thing as we all know, but it really was a no-brainer and it still doesn't explain why they ignored other huge IP's like the Streets of Rage franchise.

I mean think about it. Pretty much everything that made the Mega Drive such a huge success in the west was largely absent or ignored in the marketing of the Sega Saturn from a software point of view. It has great games but, as Segata pointed out, not games or brands that the average consumer or casual gamer gave a shit about. The only reason the Saturn had such huge success in Japan was because Japanese gamers were still big on arcade games, whereas westerners were moving away from arcade games with limited content and appeal and on to games with more depth and content.

Gryson
04-05-2019, 09:53 AM
There was never a satisfactory reason given as far as I'm concerned. Hindsight is a wonderful thing as we all know, but it really was a no-brainer and it still doesn't explain why they ignored other huge IP's like the Streets of Rage franchise.

I mean think about it. Pretty much everything that made the Mega Drive such a huge success in the west was largely absent or ignored in the marketing of the Sega Saturn from a software point of view. It has great games but, as Segata pointed out, not games or brands that the average consumer or casual gamer gave a shit about. The only reason the Saturn had such huge success in Japan was because Japanese gamers were still big on arcade games, whereas westerners were moving away from arcade games with limited content and appeal and on to games with more depth and content.

The reasons are fairly straightforward in my opinion.

It essentially comes down to Sega of America being unable to produce Saturn games. Since 1992, Sega had built up SOA to be independent, so that aside from a few special orders (basically, Streets of Rage, which SOA requested to be developed), all games targeting the American audience were produced at SOA. As Kalinske has said:


What was the reason behind the lack of great software coming out of Sega of America?

"If you mean development, this was because frankly the U.S. R&D team fought against the architecture of Saturn for quite some time," explains Kalinske, "fought for features that they thought would make it better, and thus while hoping for the improvements in hardware that didn't materialize, fell behind in development on the Saturn."

If there was one area where the Saturn was hurting, it was in the sports arena. Electronic Arts' almost nonexistent Saturn library left it to Sega to almost solely cover all the major sports on the console, something the beleaguered U.S. development teams simply couldn't do.

SOA was first distracted by the 32X and then their developers couldn't catch up with the Saturn hardware. This is what ultimately prevented a new Sonic game from coming out. All primary Sonic titles had been developed at SOA after the first title, and Sonic X-Treme was going to be the next. But the troubled development of X-Treme just reflects the overall difficulties that SOA was having with the hardware.

Most of what made the Genesis successful in NA was the ability to put out titles that Americans wanted - basically, sports games and Sonic games. SOA didn't ignore this; they tried but couldn't get the titles out in time.

When the Dreamcast was launched, then-Sega president Irimajiri explicitly stated that they were delaying the launch in the West to allow local developers extra time to learn the hardware in order to avoid what happened with the Saturn. The difference is obvious.

So, yeah, the Saturn had to rely on Japanese software in all regions, but that wasn't by design. Well, in spirit with this thread, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people enjoy the Saturn because of its cool Japanese titles. Honestly, I could do without a gazillion sports titles on a console.


https://web.archive.org/web/20160702112801/http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=3&cId=3142283

axel
04-05-2019, 11:52 AM
There was never a satisfactory reason given as far as I'm concerned. Hindsight is a wonderful thing as we all know, but it really was a no-brainer and it still doesn't explain why they ignored other huge IP's like the Streets of Rage franchise.

I mean think about it. Pretty much everything that made the Mega Drive such a huge success in the west was largely absent or ignored in the marketing of the Sega Saturn from a software point of view. It has great games but, as Segata pointed out, not games or brands that the average consumer or casual gamer gave a shit about. The only reason the Saturn had such huge success in Japan was because Japanese gamers were still big on arcade games, whereas westerners were moving away from arcade games with limited content and appeal and on to games with more depth and content.

Exactly this, imagine the N64 launching with Pilotwings and no Mario game. Pilotwings is not bad but it wouldn't excite people like seeing Mario in 3D for the first time. How do you not put your own mascot on your new console right away?

Mega Drive Bowlsey
04-05-2019, 12:02 PM
The reasons are fairly straightforward in my opinion.

It essentially comes down to Sega of America being unable to produce Saturn games. Since 1992, Sega had built up SOA to be independent, so that aside from a few special orders (basically, Streets of Rage, which SOA requested to be developed), all games targeting the American audience were produced at SOA. As Kalinske has said:



SOA was first distracted by the 32X and then their developers couldn't catch up with the Saturn hardware. This is what ultimately prevented a new Sonic game from coming out. All primary Sonic titles had been developed at SOA after the first title, and Sonic X-Treme was going to be the next. But the troubled development of X-Treme just reflects the overall difficulties that SOA was having with the hardware.

Most of what made the Genesis successful in NA was the ability to put out titles that Americans wanted - basically, sports games and Sonic games. SOA didn't ignore this; they tried but couldn't get the titles out in time.

When the Dreamcast was launched, then-Sega president Irimajiri explicitly stated that they were delaying the launch in the West to allow local developers extra time to learn the hardware in order to avoid what happened with the Saturn. The difference is obvious.

So, yeah, the Saturn had to rely on Japanese software in all regions, but that wasn't by design. Well, in spirit with this thread, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people enjoy the Saturn because of its cool Japanese titles. Honestly, I could do without a gazillion sports titles on a console.


https://web.archive.org/web/20160702112801/http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=3&cId=3142283

Interesting read. Thanks for the info. So basically SOA struggled to produce software for the Saturn due to them never really learning how to program for it effectively. SOA always struggled on the software side of things, especially when compared to SOJ. Quite a few duds on the Mega Drive were courtesy of SOA. Don't get me wrong they made some great games too, but it's fair to say that SOA didn't have anything like the attention to detail and quality that SOJ demonstrated.

Team Andromeda
04-05-2019, 12:29 PM
It essentially comes down to Sega of America being unable to produce Saturn games. Since 1992, Sega had built up SOA to be independent, so that aside from a few special orders (basically, Streets of Rage, which SOA requested to be developed), all games targeting the American audience were produced at SOA. As Kalinske has said:

Sega West just weren't good enough and didn't bring up their development or 3rd party development pipelines up to 32Bit standards either for the 32X or Saturn. They set up in the SEGA Away Team in 93 and the best game they developed was BUG, The less said about the likes of Gen War, Mr Bones, Three Dirty Dwarfs, Congo, NHL All-Star Hockey the better. Still, SEGA America did better than SEGA Europe who despite a massive investment of nearly 20 million USA dollars from SEGA Japan to set up a new development studio in London, didn't get one game out the door (for either the 32X or Saturn)

SEGA would have been so much better off being like SONY and Nintendo and where all R&D was done just in Japan and the Western teams just had to use what they were given and develope for one main console and where the likes of key IP is only developed, by the studio that made them; like EAD for Mario/Zelda or PD for Grand Turismo . That was the main issues with SEGA West at the time, a lack of direction and focus.. Trying to do too many things, support too many systems and trying to please too many people.


BTW, people like to make out that SEGA Of America killed off Streets Of Rage on the DC, Due to no one at SOA knowing of the IP (which I don't buy) If SOJ wanted to make a new Streets Of Rage game they would have. I think the lack of a SOR game owe's far more the genere being very niche by the late 90's and the dire sales of SOR III And it was quite clear Sonic X was in a mess right the start of its life on the Mega Drive, before the move to the 32X and then the Saturn. Really If Sonic Team couldn't make one, SEGA should have let Traveller's tales make a 3D Sonic for them

Team Andromeda
04-05-2019, 12:39 PM
The N64 had the advantage in brand recognition when it came to games, but a lot of that is down to Sega shooting themselves in the foot by not making a bona fide Sonic game for the Saturn and for ignoring other huge IP's like Streets of Rage. The most recognisable brand they own in the gaming world and, apart from Sonic R and Sonic Jam which don't count being a spin-off and a compilation, they ignored it on that particular system for reasons known only to themselves. Fuck NiGHTS, Sega should have had Yuji Naka focus solely on a new Sonic game. I'm also one of those who absolutely loved FFVII and played it to death but wasn't particularly grabbed by Grandia, so we'll have to agree to disagree on your last point. ;)

Giving Sonic to SOA to developer was a sure Cock up. SEGA Should have had a Studio in SOJ to make the title and for sure SEGA Japan should have worked harder to get Square (in a feature with Retro Square said one of the main reasons for going with SONY was due to SONY saying it would push the game in the West) but for me even more of a cock up was not bring Grandia to the west. I will disgaree with you on Streets Of Rage though.. It was a IP that was in an genre that was fast fading (even inthe Arcades) and where SOR III saw horrible sales.
No one more than me would have loved to seen a 2D SOR on the Saturn, but I can see why it was never green lite and thats to overlook how wonderful Die Hard Arcade was, you couldn't have made a better 3D beat them up than that imo.
But it was geting to the point that while it could be ok in the Aracdes, not many were happy in the late 90's to hand over 50 for a game that could be finished in less than 2 hours, that style of game was on its way out sadly...

Gryson
04-05-2019, 12:40 PM
Exactly this, imagine the N64 launching with Pilotwings and no Mario game. Pilotwings is not bad but it wouldn't excite people like seeing Mario in 3D for the first time. How do you not put your own mascot on your new console right away?

By trying to support too much hardware at once...

Sonic Team was busy developing S3&K since that's where the money was in the NA market at the time. Early Saturn game development began at the end of '93 (Panzer Dragoon), but S&K wasn't released until the end of '94. There was no way they could have made a launch title for the Saturn. NiGHTS wouldn't even come out until the middle of '96.

On top of that, SOA had shifted its attention to the 32X. Sonic X-Treme started out as a 32X title. That didn't last long. It was all too unfocused.

The Dreamcast got a lot of things right - one of them being a Sonic launch title.


Interesting read. Thanks for the info. So basically SOA struggled to produce software for the Saturn due to them never really learning how to program for it effectively. SOA always struggled on the software side of things, especially when compared to SOJ. Quite a few duds on the Mega Drive were courtesy of SOA. Don't get me wrong they made some great games too, but it's fair to say that SOA didn't have anything like the attention to detail and quality that SOJ demonstrated.

There are a lot of factors related to this (see all of Melf's research), but it certainly seems that SOA's primary concern was marketability. And that's certainly where you want to focus to boost your market share, although I have no doubt that it hurts the legacy of the product. In Japan, Sega president/autocrat Hayao Nakayama was much more focused on creating fun/innovative games (Treasure's president Maegawa has attested to the incredible freedom they got to make whatever they wanted) - and then basically not marketing them. The contrast is striking.

Team Andromeda
04-05-2019, 02:55 PM
By trying to support too much hardware at once...

Sonic Team was busy developing S3&K since that's where the money was in the NA market at the time. Early Saturn game development began at the end of '93 (Panzer Dragoon), but S&K wasn't released until the end of '94. There was no way they could have made a launch title for the Saturn. NiGHTS wouldn't even come out until the middle of '96..

They was no way a real 3D main Sonic game would have been ready in 1995. The mistake SEGA Japan made was 2 fold. Giving the 3D project to SEGA America, when a consumer Team in SEGA Japan should have been handling the project and not making it clear early in, that a 3D Sonic game would be made for the Saturn.
For the western launch I would have just had an updated Sonic CD port with a fancy new 3D Bonus section and Cinepak FMV and also include Sonic the Arcade game in the package. That for me would have been enough for the Saturn's launch inthe west.


The Dreamcast got a lot of things right - one of them being a Sonic launch title

It wasn't quite a launch title in Japan :p and it should be noted that the game only came out so early for the DC becasue of its being dropped for the Saturn and the 2 years worth of Saturn Sonic Adv work was carried over to the DC title.

Leynos
04-06-2019, 02:12 AM
It's not uncommon for a launch title to be a game that started development on a previous system. Ryse Son of Rome is one of those.

Team Andromeda
04-06-2019, 05:14 AM
It's not uncommon for a launch title to be a game that started development on a previous system. Ryse Son of Rome is one of those.

Not saying otherwise, It happened with Luigi Mansion. But with out turning Saturn's Sonic Adv into a DC production midway through (it was meant to ship in fall 97) it never would have hit the DC launch and even then it couldn't make it and was delayed for over a month and coming in just before Christmas; my import shop got stock in on the 24th of December 1998 (what a Christmas day I had :)

What was more uncommon was other than Nintendo, more systems launches were pretty poor for launch software, or with a AAA sequel to a fan fav IP and the way some people talk, it was like Sonic launched a SEGA console. It never launched any and the launch software of Mega Drive was dire in Japan and the USA and how many fan fav Master System IP did SEGA carry over for the launch of the Mega Drive? all we got was a pretty average version of Thunderblade and a rather crap Space Harrier II (did sound great mind) and if one looks at the Cube there was no fan fav IP launching with the system at all

Far far too much is made of the launch Saturn in the USA. Lots of systems have poor launch software, did not have sequels to fan fav IP at launch, costs loads were horrible to develop on and where the developers outside the region of the console developer, had little time to get used to the hardware.
Not least the PS3 and forget 6 months, the USA teams had 6 days between the domestic launch and then the international launch. Nobody cares mind, because the PS3 went on to sell loads

KitsuneNight
04-06-2019, 12:54 PM
On top of that, SOA had shifted its attention to the 32X. Sonic X-Treme started out as a 32X title. That didn't last long. It was all too unfocused.

The Dreamcast got a lot of things right - one of them being a Sonic launch title.


but by then the damage was done after the failure of the saturn and the 32X and sega unceremoniously killing the megadrive in mid 96

KitsuneNight
04-06-2019, 12:59 PM
Far far too much is made of the launch Saturn in the USA. Lots of systems have poor launch software, did not have sequels to fan fav IP at launch, costs loads were horrible to develop on and where the developers outside the region of the console developer, had little time to get used to the hardware.
Not least the PS3 and forget 6 months, the USA teams had 6 days between the domestic launch and then the international launch. Nobody cares mind, because the PS3 went on to sell loads

yes but it didnt help along with other bonhead moves such as letting the saturn languish for months
a too high price tag
not pushing the fact that you got internal ram and a pack in game something the ps1 lacked
killing the megadrive in mid 96 from a business stand point this made sense but to fans it was a stab in the back especially because the megadrive was still selling
sega should have just sold the megadrive with deep discounts

quite frankly if the saturn launch in late 95 say november with daytona usa sega rally vf2 and virtua cop as its launch line up things might be quite different
but hindsight and all that

Gryson
04-06-2019, 04:59 PM
yes but it didnt help along with other bonhead moves such as letting the saturn languish for months
a too high price tag
not pushing the fact that you got internal ram and a pack in game something the ps1 lacked
killing the megadrive in mid 96 from a business stand point this made sense but to fans it was a stab in the back especially because the megadrive was still selling
sega should have just sold the megadrive with deep discounts

quite frankly if the saturn launch in late 95 say november with daytona usa sega rally vf2 and virtua cop as its launch line up things might be quite different
but hindsight and all that

Few things not quite accurate there though ;)

Sega didn't kill the Genesis in NA in 1996. It always shocks me how often that is said on this website (actually, it's usually worse, with people saying Sega killed the Genesis in 1994!). Most likely, the people that post here just didn't notice since they had long since moved onto the next generation.

Here's a quote from a 1/1997 press release from SOA:


Sega Genesis remained a strong seller for hardware and software in 1996 for gamers just entering the category. Sega hit its projections on the mark, selling 1.1 million hardware units and 3 million Sega Genesis games.

While the company recently announced it will dispose of all remaining 16-bit peripheral inventory, specifically the Genesis 32X and Sega CD products, it will continue to sell Genesis hardware and software in the coming years.

Sega continues to produce new gaming experiences that push the Sega Genesis platform to new heights, including the first three dimensional 16-bit game, "Sonic 3D Blast," and the arcade hit, "Virtua Fighter 2," which shipped late last year.

A few months after that, Sega dropped the price of the Genesis down to $79.99. It's not clear how many units were sold after that, and then in 1998, Sega licensed the Genesis to Majesco, who sold the Genesis 3.

Also, Sega did price-match the PlayStation with the Saturn (although sometimes slightly late), and the base Saturn unit did not come with a pack-in game (the unit that was price-matched with the PS1).

KitsuneNight
04-06-2019, 05:24 PM
^ im from europe though and from what i recall from a mean machines sega magazine is that the megadrive was killed in 96
but its been a while and most of that post there was done from memory
so i should just dig that mms issue up again

the base unit saturn came with virtua fighter 1 as a pack in in certain regions in europe
my original one did and that was new old stock
https://segaretro.org/Saturn_consoles_in_Western_Europe
it also came with several other pack in games but there are virtua fighter 1 bundles in there

there is also a letter in sega saturn magazine 3 with a reader being surprised at virtua fighter being in the box
https://segaretro.org/index.php?title=File%3ASSM_UK_03.pdf&page=32

( its split over 2 pages )
so there were saturns out there with vf1 as a pack in
in europe at least

Gryson
04-06-2019, 06:14 PM
The launch Saturn in NA came with Virtua Fighter as a pack-in (sorry, not sure about Europe). The cost was $399.

In NA, the PlayStation launched in September 1995 at $299, and then in response in October 1995, Sega released a version of the Saturn that did not have a pack-in but was priced the same as the PlayStation at $299. There was also a version with a pack-in, but it cost more - I believe $349.

People make a big deal about the Saturn being priced higher than the PlayStation, but that just goes to show the effectiveness of Sony's marketing (that whole E3 thing). The Saturn was priced similar to the PlayStation most of the time (but as I said, there were some gaps). I mean, that's what a price war is.

KitsuneNight
04-06-2019, 06:35 PM
The launch Saturn in NA came with Virtua Fighter as a pack-in (sorry, not sure about Europe). The cost was $399.

In NA, the PlayStation launched in September 1995 at $299, and then in response in October 1995, Sega released a version of the Saturn that did not have a pack-in but was priced the same as the PlayStation at $299. There was also a version with a pack-in, but it cost more - I believe $349.

People make a big deal about the Saturn being priced higher than the PlayStation, but that just goes to show the effectiveness of Sony's marketing (that whole E3 thing). The Saturn was priced similar to the PlayStation most of the time (but as I said, there were some gaps). I mean, that's what a price war is.

i base most of my information of sega saturn magazine uk
the saturn was 399 pounds when it was launched and came with vf 1
and then it was dropped to 299 pounds in time for christmas 95 with a pretty damn good line up of sega rally vf 2 and virtua cop 1

for the majority of 96 it hovered around 299 from what i recall

but ssmuk 14 has a interesting list of what was on offer for the uk at the very least during holiday 96
and the saturn was going for 229 pounds with world wide soccer 98
https://segaretro.org/index.php?title=File:SSM_UK_14.pdf&page=53

considering the saturn had build in ram and a pack in game things the ps1 lacked and you had to buy seperate 399 doesnt seem so bad
299 makes it worthwhile
and 229 is a steal

in pounds that is
that would be 266 euro nowadays inflation not included

Leynos
04-06-2019, 07:26 PM
I kept seeing Genesis 3 from 97 up to 99 in Shopko a lesser Walmart of sorts when I was a teen. Almost got one but heard some people could not play all their games on it. 1998 I got a SNES Jr instead and still have it. Sadly no Saturn anything in site there.

axel
04-06-2019, 11:12 PM
Sega continues to produce new gaming experiences that push the Sega Genesis platform to new heights, including the first three dimensional 16-bit game, "Sonic 3D Blast," and the arcade hit, "Virtua Fighter 2," which shipped late last year..

How could Sega possibly call Sonic 3D Blast "the first three dimensional 16-bit game"?
In 1997?
After games like Virtua Racing (or for that matter, Star Fox) had already been released?

If an isometric view is all it takes then Marble Madness was a 16-bit 3D game back in 1984.

I know I'm ranting off topic now but that was a ridiculous statement even for a press release.

Gryson
04-06-2019, 11:20 PM
Haha, I didn't even catch that. What an absurd statement.

Team Andromeda
04-07-2019, 01:22 AM
not pushing the fact that you got internal ram and a pack in game something the ps1 lacked
killing the megadrive in mid 96 from a business stand point this made sense but to fans it was a stab in the back especially because the megadrive was still selling
sega should have just sold the megadrive with deep discounts

I get that, But its hard for the PR dept. Most people will just focus on the price of the actual console. I mean in the UK not only did you get a free game, no need for a memory card, you also got an official RGB Scart lead (on its own 30) but still it was a hard sell when one see's 299 vs 399.


killing the megadrive in mid 96 from a business stand point this made sense but to fans it was a stab in the back especially because the megadrive was still selling
sega should have just sold the megadrive with deep discounts

That is just a myth that is said on the likes of here . SEGA were still selling and manufacturing Mega Drive units in 1996,still publishing games and even in Japan printing a Mega CD game with Shadowrun in 1996 hardly what anyone could class killing off a system. The 32X was designed to prolong the life of the Mega Drive , not kill it off even. The main issue for SEGA was it looked to keep the Mega Drive going for too long, people seem to forget that it came out in 88 and that the Snes came out nearly 2 year's latter. In 1996 the market for 16 bit software wasn't there, people had enough and were looking to move on. Both Nintendo and SEGA were said to have over 300 million worth of 16 bit unsold carts in warehouses. When the N64 was ready to go, one can count one hand the ammout of Snes games Nintendo looked to produce or make for the Snes after the N64 hit the market (just like it dropped the N64 when the Cube was ready to go )

Its easy to say what SEGA should have done now. I say now, what I said at the time. I would have stopped all Mega Drive In-House games in 1995 and moved them to the Saturn. So we could have had Comix Zone in 24bit colour, a CD soundtrack and 2 player mode, no 32X so the Saturn would also have Virtual Racing Delux, Doom, Starwars ready for launch, Would have had a port of Sonic CD and look to launch in late June or July when Virtual Fighter Remix, Clockwork Knight II (I would have packed in Clockwork knight as well) and Bug were all readly to go.

So at launch in July 1995 one would be looking at a launch line up of Comix Zone, Virtua Racing Delux, Star Wars Arcade, Bug, Panzer Dragoon, Virtual Fighting Remix, Sonic CD, Clockwork Knight II, Pebble Beach Golf Which would have been more than a decent launch line up for both the Pal and USA market. Not that I think was the issue. For me the issue was SEGA not focused on one system and trying to support too many systems and that lead to a mix PR message and mix development and mixed 3rd party development support. That for me was the real issue, along with no Sonic 3D game from SEGA Japan

Moirai
04-11-2019, 01:07 PM
how about a 2D sonic 4 for saturn

gamevet
04-11-2019, 09:25 PM
It did in consumer appeal. Most people prefer Starfox over Panzer Dragoon and Mario over NiGHTS and OoT over Dark Savior. I'm not saying those are better or worse. Just that they had a wider appeal to the average consumer of the era. If more people saw things for what they were Grandia would be more praised than FFVII. :p

That's because Nintendo made a smooth transition from the SNES to the N64. Sega just floundered around for a couple of years with add-ons and sort of neglected the core Genesis audience. Looking at the numbers, the North American console units sold for the SNES and N64 are pretty similar.

Gryson
04-11-2019, 10:19 PM
How did Sega neglect the Genesis audience?

These are the top 10 console titles for the Christmas month of December '94, arguably the last time the 16-bit generation mattered (although things were already bleak at that point:



1 SNES Donkey Kong Country $58 Nintendo 1,499,645
2 GEN Sonic & Knuckles $57 Sega 402,770
3 GEN Madden NFL 95 $57 EA 344,017
4 GEN Mortal Kombat II $60 Acclaim 309,953
5 GEN NBA Live 95 $58 EA 258,160
6 GEN The Lion King $64 Viacom 248,419
7 GEN NFL 95 $56 Sega 247,474
8 SNES Aladdin $21 Capcom 238,774
9 GEN Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers $53 Sega 228,449
10 SNES Madden NFL 95 $57 EA 210,224


Total games sold (in top 10):
Genesis: 2,039,242
SNES: 1,948,643

Total hardware units sold:
Genesis: 1,191,414
SNES: 1,052,087

People get so caught up on how well DKC sold, but Genesis was still holding its own against Nintendo. Hell, #8 on that list is a SNES budget title that came out in 1993.

As has always been the case with Nintendo, people mainly bought their select few first party titles, and third party devs were left with the scraps. That's really where the Genesis shone.

And, with those top selling Genesis titles in mind, it's easy to see what happened to the Saturn... If your user base is largely buying sports titles, then give them sports titles. The Saturn library was just so off the mark for the Genesis's audience (and the PlayStation was spot on).


https://www.neogaf.com/threads/classic-sales-age-december-1994-u-s-top40-hw-revised.116454/

gamevet
04-11-2019, 10:44 PM
Neglected the core audience, as in, not bring out the sports titles at the launch of the Saturn. The effort they put behind developing FMV games for Sega CD, and developing games for the 32X took away from having games ready for the Saturn launch, and keeping a supply of 1st party games for the Genesis from 1995 to 1996. The 32-bit era really didn't catch fire until late 1996 and Sega of America didn't have good titles developed for the Saturn's Western audience.

Team Andromeda
04-12-2019, 04:13 AM
As has always been the case with Nintendo, people mainly bought their select few first party titles, and third party devs were left with the scraps. That's really where the Genesis shone.



Yep even on the flop that was the Wii U, Nintendo games sold in huge numbers with the likes of Mario Kart 8 selling over 8 million copies and some 6 for Mario 3D world, Its a picture repeated on the N64 and all Nintendo systems.
Also, people forget that the Snes launched 2 years later too. SEGA was still making AAA In-House software for the Mega Drive in 1995, some 7 years after the Mega Drive 1st shipped. One can't really say the same for Nintendo on the Snes.

Speaking on Sonic and SOJ. It was an utter cock-up by SEGA Japan to have the Japanese Sonic Team wasting their time with Knuckles: Chaotix. That team should have been charged and put to work on Saturn Sonic 3D, with help from rest of Sonic Team working who were working on NiGHTS, much like it was having the CS team working on 32X Virtual Racing, when SEGA Japan could have had a totally brilliant version of Virtual Racing on the Saturn very early in, given the talent that was the CS team at the time.

Also why did SEGA Japan think it was good not to have Revenge of Death Adder not on the Saturn, to help with early launch software, the game looked and played incredible at the time. The Saturn version could have been perfect and also supported the game 4 player mode via Multi Tap too.

Leynos
05-03-2019, 04:42 AM
I'm not here to continue the trend on this forum to dogpile on the N64. N64 has its place in history and some great games. Saturn may not have had some of the industry shaking games that were considered revolutionizing a genre or the industry. Everything the Saturn is and was and to this day appeals to me more. Everything it did I like more than even Genesis. Something about how music sounded on those games. The weird but only SEGA would ideas. Ideas so out of the left field. It wasn't the most popular console of its era but it was the most creative console to me. Creatively I think in every facet it took the most risks and yeah it made it more flawed at the time but kind of ahead of its time as well(then again that is SEGA in a nutshell). Some out of SEGA stubbornness. It was bold either way. I think of the Saturn sometimes as an artist not appreciated in their time but after death people marveled the art. Saturn now makes it on many best of all times consoles. Still not as much appreciation as it might deserve. I don't say this because of a SEGA forum. I honestly mean it when I say. Saturn is my fave console from its generation and confession time I didn't own one back then. I played PS1 and N64. Thought they were great but only Saturn makes me giddy and happy in a way that only 90s SEGA ever could.


This post is 5 months late. It's just on my mind now.

Moirai
06-19-2019, 01:51 PM
Again i find the saturn section to be virtually dead outside of discussions about why sega failed. Does anyone actually regularly play their saturn on a regular basis? Lmao

Raijin Z
06-19-2019, 08:51 PM
I don't touch my Saturn because I don't want to kill the laser diode. Ain't got the scratch for an ODE for it, and my awful job kinda' made absolutely everything in life unappealing to me. So, three strikes. Four, if you count my Youtube invisibility.

goldenband
06-19-2019, 09:30 PM
Again i find the saturn section to be virtually dead outside of discussions about why sega failed. Does anyone actually regularly play their saturn on a regular basis? Lmao

I go through phases with different consoles. I've been craving a good Saturn session lately, though -- maybe I'll play Shellshock or something.

I was enjoying Ghen War a few years ago but the autosave bullshit and awkward platforming took the wind out of my sails. I also did a Virtual Hydlide playthrough last year.

And yeah, I do appreciate the Saturn for what it is. I like the way its scaling sprites and 3D environments look like Sega arcade games from the late 1980s/early 1990s. I don't need it to be more like a PlayStation; I have a PlayStation for that.

I also played a Saturn long before I ever played a PS1, so like a baby bird, I imprinted on the Saturn's aesthetics for better or worse. (But only very slightly, I didn't do much 3D gaming before the 2000s anyway.)

gamevet
06-19-2019, 10:18 PM
Again i find the saturn section to be virtually dead outside of discussions about why sega failed. Does anyone actually regularly play their saturn on a regular basis? Lmao

Like all of my old consoles, I'll pull it out and play a few of my favorite titles, and it might be a couple of hours, or it might be for the majority of my free time on the weekend. One thing is for sure, every time I get an itch to play the Saturn, Sega Rally is getting played.


I don't touch my Saturn because I don't want to kill the laser diode. Ain't got the scratch for an ODE for it, and my awful job kinda' made absolutely everything in life unappealing to me. So, three strikes. Four, if you count my Youtube invisibility.

You'd have to play it an awful lot for that to happen. One time I'd thought that my North American launch Saturn had a dying laser, but it turned out that the rails just needed a little greasing.

Leynos
06-22-2019, 01:43 AM
I'm more liberal with it. I sometimes put in a game OST CD play it while I read 90s gaming magazines.

Moirai
06-22-2019, 02:41 AM
Like all of my old consoles, I'll pull it out and play a few of my favorite titles, and it might be a couple of hours, or it might be for the majority of my free time on the weekend. One thing is for sure, every time I get an itch to play the Saturn, Sega Rally is getting played.



You'd have to play it an awful lot for that to happen. One time I'd thought that my North American launch Saturn had a dying laser, but it turned out that the rails just needed a little greasing.
not to mention replacement lasers are still available

gamevet
06-23-2019, 12:11 AM
not to mention replacement lasers are still available

I believe that as long as you are keeping the lens clean and aren't using a modded console to play cheap burned discs, that the laser lens should be quite durable.

Raijin Z
06-23-2019, 12:46 AM
The diode will fail regardless. Lubrication keeps the mechanical parts alive, but you really should acquire replacement laser assemblies for your systems. I think that replacing my Goldstar 3DO's laser was a traumatic event, in spite of it being a trouble-free success.

gamevet
06-23-2019, 01:08 AM
The diode will fail regardless. Lubrication keeps the mechanical parts alive, but you really should acquire replacement laser assemblies for your systems. I think that replacing my Goldstar 3DO's laser was a traumatic event, in spite of it being a trouble-free success.

Yes, they will fail over time, but keeping your discs clean, as well as the lens, will ensure a longer life for the diode. Also, a clean power source is a must. I have all of my electronics connected through a UPS, to ensure a clean delivery of power, without risks of power surges that could damage key components of electronic hardware. I've seen network switches connected through fiber connections last for 10 years of 24/7 use, which is way beyond anything a video game console experiences.

This article does a good job of covering the failure of a laser diode.

https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/electronic_components/diode/laser-diode-lifetime-failure-reliability.php


Laser diode reliability and lifetime basics
There are a number of factors which affect the overall laser diode lifetime. While a catastrophic failure is one of the more obvious laser diode failure modes, it is also found that laser diodes degrade over time.

It is found that the forward current which does not contribute to the light generation causes the light emission characteristics to change. One aspect of this is that it takes more current to produce the same level of light. In many circumstances the laser diode life as the time when rises to a given value to attain the same light value - some have defined this as 1.2 times the initial value. This value may be chosen because there is a limit on any automatic power control circuitry in the equipment.

One of the key factors with the ageing process within laser diodes is the operating temperature. The degradation speed rises exponentially with the operating temperature.

Laser diode catastrophic optical damage, COD
Surge currents in laser diodes can lead to the rapid failure. It is found that in laser diodes that if the current is raised to increase the output optical power, a point is reached where the output power suddenly falls away and irreversible damage is entailed. This form of failure is known as Catastrophic Optical Damage, COD.

COD occurs when high output levels cause a short melting of part of the laser diode edge. At this point crystal defects form.

The very nature of laser diodes makes them susceptible to damage. Many operate at very high speeds - often in excess of 1GHz and in addition to this they are low voltage devices - around 2 volts. The combination of these two factors means that they are very susceptible to dame by surges.

In order to prevent the possibility of COD, it is necessary to protect the laser diode from surges. Turn on of general supply surges can provide short lived spikes that can easily damage the laser diode and cause failure.

It is also found that even if the laser diode is not completely destroyed by a surge because it may not be of sufficient magnitude to completely destroy the device, a general deterioration may be caused, causing a shortening of the life. Accordingly it is necessary to run laser diodes well within their ratings to ensure their lifetime is maintained.

WarmSignal
12-04-2019, 04:24 AM
In THIS universe. ;)

It's taken me a long time, but I've finally come full circle and reached this conclusion after many years of wrestling with the fact that Saturn just wasn't, and isn't another N64, or PS1. It's actually a pretty decent console for what it is and I quite like it. Lots of people to this day still rag on it, and brush the NA library off as being trash outside of the hardcore JRPGs. It's a system that has become more "collected" than played nowadays, which is sad. Not sure why so many people are compelled to collect it with no interest in actually playing it. But it seems there's not a whole lot of universal love for much of anything from the 32-bit era anymore. Loads of people bash N64, others like to suggest that early polygonal games as a whole "didn't age well", and a lot of the late release 2D sprite based games were just plain overlooked and are mostly forgotten. Personally, I enjoy both. I feel like the Saturn did both pretty well, and there's a decent offering of titles on the system.

Sure the PS1 has "thousands of games", sounds impressive but most of that number is shove-ware crap, catering to licensed brand names and the casual market. The Saturn doesn't have much shovel-ware of that variety, it has a lot of early 32-bit era games. The kinds that are generally shunned for being too primitive in some sense, and I feel that's kinda BS. They're fine. Sometimes I kinda prefer those earlier games to the later ones from this gen. Same with N64, I kinda prefer it's earlier titles to what came out later on the platform.

I currently own about 80 Saturn titles, and most of them I'd say are worthwhile and there's still more yet that I'd like to eventually pick up. That's plenty. For a console that was discontinued early, it's not really lacking all that much. Less filler, less fluff, maybe. But there's plenty reason to own one if you're a fan of the era, I think.