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Yharnamresident
08-11-2019, 06:41 AM
The title says it all, the Dreamcast would be my favourite console if it weren't for these 2 elements. I find them both to be very braindead decisions, but they could've been corrected if the Dreamcast had a relaunch in 2001/2002. I've mentioned these before in a couple threads, but I decided to make a dedicated thread for them.

1. Severely limited and outdated controller

-You may or may not have noticed this, but the Dreamcast controller actually has less buttons than the SNES controller. Thats really bizarre for a 6th-gen console, and also considering they had 6 face buttons with the Saturn. Theres many games that would've benefited from a controller with more buttons, especially the Shenmue games. Which brings us to our next point:

-The controller only has 1 analog stick. Its not elegant that you gotta control Ryu using a d-pad. And also with FPS games that were starting to rise on consoles, a second analog stick would've been a huge benefit. Like the N64 also has 1 analog stick, but it has C buttons which were intended for camera control. The Dreamcast controller has nothing dedicated and designed for camera control.

-The cord comes out the button. This should've been avoided at all costs. Its strange they didn't come up with a better solution, and resorted to this design choice.

2. Insanely small memory card space

-The VMUs hold 128KBs of space. This is a 5th-gen amount of space. I know the reason the space is so small is because the VMU has alot of other stuff built into it, but they should've also released plain memory cards with 2-4 MBs of space. Theres tons of games that will use up an entire VMU. I know they released that 4x Memory Card, but thats not the same thing, thats 4 memory cards in 1, you have to manually(by hand) switch between the 4 memory card banks.


So yes I do think theres a couple flaws with the Dreamcast hardware, however I don't think theres anything wrong with the main console itself. It has a very aesthetic design, much better than a purple lunchbox or a huge black and lime green slab. Oh yes, the console laser is pretty loud but thats a more minor thing, and could've been corrected with a model revision, similar to what we saw with Genesis model 1 vs model 2.

Theres a lot of debate about the Dreamcast controller, so let me know if you disagree with what I've said.

profholt82
08-11-2019, 11:20 AM
I'll forgive them for only using one analog stick as the idea of using 2 sticks to control a character in a 3d space wasn't being executed properly even in playstation games at that time which used dual sticks. The idea of camera control was still a new and novel concept at that time and was usually executed sloppily.

But it really bothered me that Sega dropped the 6 face buttons. I still don't understand that decision at all. Especially considering how popular fighting games had been on the Saturn. Perhaps they figured they could sell more arcade stick controllers to fighting game fans that way. They should have stuck with their original instincts and used the Saturn 3D controller as a template.

Raijin Z
08-11-2019, 11:37 AM
Try playing a game that makes active use of the triggers for more than 20 minutes. For this reason, both the Dreamcast pad, and the Gamecube pad, are fucking terrible. RSI inside. Retrofighters (a dumb name if ever I heard one) is making a new controller (read: the same controller they always make, with a few things moved around) for the Dreamcast, but it remains to be seen if this controller won't blow out the controller board like all of the other 3rd party pads seemed to do.

Virtua Hunter
08-11-2019, 12:01 PM
I'm fine with 1 analogue stick, 2 wasn't really necessary at the time.
While I never understood why choose 4 face button like snes and PSX, instead of 6 button that was the trademark of Sega.
In any case the pad was very good, way better than any nintendo or sony pad that really give me cramps (not joking).

The two defects that prevent Dreamcast from being the favourite console are:

1-The color: never liked white consoles, and the yellowing is something that drive me nuts. Why Dreamcast can't be standard black?

2-Weak optical laser: it should normally be the strongest part of a console. Instead Dreamcast laser is probably the worst of every console.

gamevet
08-11-2019, 01:07 PM
I hate the dpad on the DC controller. That's why I have an Agetec arcade stick.

It would have been cool, if Sega released a Stunner gun in the West for the DC. I have 2 different 3rd party light guns (neither of them work all that great) and I can't even use them for Confidential Mission. I can't get them to calibrate properly with my 27" Sony Wega.

cleeg
08-11-2019, 04:53 PM
I agree with the OP regarding the buttons and do find the MC space a bit annoying also. I'm not sure the two sticks thing is that fair though, based on what other people have said and the wire out the bottom never ever bothers me and I can't understand why some people get mega wound up about it.

Leynos
08-11-2019, 07:53 PM
Love the controller but it would have been nice with 2 sticks and 2 extra face buttons and still keep the triggers. The wire was never an issue for me. Tho I wish everyone did what Xbox did that generation. Wire detaches itself to prevent the console crashing to the floor. Memory card management of that era was bad in general. I honestly feel like it's even worse now with PS4. I have to manage HDD space and when I want to put the disc in aside form long install times...the game won't work if I don't have optional DLC installed. So I have to go to PSN website sift through years of downloads to find the DLC to queue it up for my PS4. Then again I have a lot of games for PS4. So managing Gamecube and Dreamcast memory card limits seems not so bad anymore.

gamevet
08-11-2019, 09:47 PM
Love the controller but it would have been nice with 2 sticks and 2 extra face buttons and still keep the triggers. The wire was never an issue for me. Tho I wish everyone did what Xbox did that generation. Wire detaches itself to prevent the console crashing to the floor. Memory card management of that era was bad in general. I honestly feel like it's even worse now with PS4. I have to manage HDD space and when I want to put the disc in aside form long install times...the game won't work if I don't have optional DLC installed. So I have to go to PSN website sift through years of downloads to find the DLC to queue it up for my PS4. Then again I have a lot of games for PS4. So managing Gamecube and Dreamcast memory card limits seems not so bad anymore.

I had issues with storage space on my PS4 and was erasing older games to make more room for newer games. Now, I have a 2 TB external HDD that I got for $60 at Walmart. All of my new content goes on that drive.

You forget how bad it was on the PS3, though. I just recently got an older Slim and wanted to install Gran Turismo 6. I have pretty fast internet, but for some reason the game took over 6 hours to install all of its files. My launch model PS3 probably would have caught on fire after 6 hours.

Leynos
08-11-2019, 11:29 PM
Yeah, I have a 1TB external but I need to get a 3 or 4TB. This is how bad it is. I'm now afraid to uninstall some games. Nier Automata esp. I wanted to play it some today to I installed it. I even did the thing of installing the DLC separate. Annoying but sure, fine. DLC would not show up in the game. This is a bug that has been there since LAUNCH. I uninstall everything. Re-install the game and DLC. Nope. I delete my save data locally and then reinstall. Nope. So how did I get it back? I uninstalled everything. Deleted the save data. Reinstalled just the game, not the DLC. Started a new game. Played for about an hour or so til I got to a certain story part. Bought an in-game item. Then installed the DLC. Close the game. Opened the game. DLC was there but not my save data from before. So I close the game. Download my data from the cloud. Open the game and finally, the DLC works. So from 4 PM to 7:45 How long all of that took me and yet you're right still shorter than a PS3 install. God, I hope we can dump installs next-gen but have a feeling they will be worse when 180GB is the new norm.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGl5bB_36vI

Yharnamresident
08-12-2019, 03:37 AM
I'll forgive them for only using one analog stick as the idea of using 2 sticks to control a character in a 3d space wasn't being executed properly even in playstation games at that time which used dual sticks. The idea of camera control was still a new and novel concept at that time and was usually executed sloppily.But even Mario 64 in 1996, you can use the C buttons for camera control.

A lot of Dreamcast games use the triggers for camera control, but thats not elegant because you can only control the camera left vs right, and also the triggers usually would've been better utilized for other purposes in the game.


Love the controller but it would have been nice with 2 sticks and 2 extra face buttons and still keep the triggers.Thats all that was necessary, it would've been a perfect controller if that was the case.


Memory card management of that era was bad in general.The PS2 had 8 MB memory cards, thats like 60x the space of Dreamcast VMUs. I don't think theres a single PS2 game that takes up an entire memory card, which is the case with a lot of Dreamcast games.


But like I said, both of these issues could have been easily corrected. The input manager inside the Dreamcast is able to recognize 2 analog sticks and 6 face buttons, so they could've released a redesigned controller. And they could've updated the Dreamcast BIOS to allow memory cards higher than 128KBs.

Team Andromeda
08-12-2019, 03:43 AM
It would have been cool, if Sega released a Stunner gun in the West for the DC.

SEGA did in Europe, but I guess with cash low and various court actions against gaming corps, SOA didn't want to risk any by brining out its official light gun in the USA. Shame too as the Gun is the best light gun ever, it looks super cool, the D-Pad at the back a touch of genius and I loved how you could put in the Rumble back in the unit for recoil.

The Dreamcast pad wasn't too bad, but the lack of 6 face buttons really hurt it. I used to use the six buttons for movement and then the analogue pad in Duke and Quake on the 3D pad and that really should have been the case on the DC, but SEGA Japan did silly focus tests and the causal gamers said they were too many buttons and they got confused and so it was cut to 4 face buttons...

Anyhow... What I feel SEGA could have done better with the DC is I didn't like the lack of focus on Arcade ports by SOJ , Really SEGA should have been looking to make almost every Model 2 and Model 3 game for the Dreamcast. The lack of Jurassic Park (The Lost World) and Dayonta USA II, Spike Out was really disappointing. I have no idea why SEGA didn't have the World Wide Soccer team make a direct sequel for the DC (after the brilliant WWS 97/98) why SEGA looked to treat Camelot so horribly and not have them make Shining Force IV for DC, much less see Lobotomy go bankrupt (instead of making them a In-House team) and having that team handle the Half-Life port; If that port wasn't so badly handled and came out early in DC's life, I feel it could have got great sales myself

But the most disappointing for all ... was to release SEGA Rally II in such a rushed and unfinished state; That game needed to be the showcase for the system, show off the GFX of the DC (Model 3 Step 2 perfection), show off the online side of the DC with Online play, internet rankings and being able to download and upload ghost times and replays Ect (the kind of options one saw in VO II and Buggy Heat) To get SEGA's driving crown back from SONY Instead, we got a lovely game, but one that could and should have been so much better, to make matters worse SEGA GT wasn't really any better.

That for me was the big issue on the DC SEGA wise. SEGA never made Football game like WWS 98 on the Saturn, or an In-House racing game that could touch SEGA Rally and not having Camelot make a new Shining game or letting Lobotomy gone down was BIG mistakes for me

Moirai
08-12-2019, 01:54 PM
The existence of the Sega Saturn and motherfuckin TURBOGRAFX-16 prevent anything else from being my favorite console

Leynos
08-12-2019, 03:26 PM
MDK2 on Dreamcast I hated for the controls. That game needed a second analog stick if I remember right.

gamevet
08-12-2019, 10:22 PM
The existence of the Sega Saturn and motherfuckin TURBOGRAFX-16 prevent anything else from being my favorite console

Well.....you had me on the 1st half.

Black_Tiger
08-12-2019, 10:38 PM
I like the Dreamcast as it is. I never had a problem with the stock controller for games that were made for it.

EB sold Saturn pad adapters cheap while the DC was current, so it already had the best 2D and street fighting controller and they also sold Playstation adapters.

shifted
08-12-2019, 11:18 PM
Like the DC, but the laser issue now is making it a paper weight. Makes it too problematic to bother with.

I understand you can modify it to have a SD card (GDEMU?) and run the games that way, so for a playing console in future I'd give this modification a crack. Haven't looked for replacement lasers for a while but doubt it's progressed anywhere?

xelement5x
08-12-2019, 11:25 PM
SEGA did in Europe, but I guess with cash low and various court actions against gaming corps, SOA didn't want to risk any by brining out its official light gun in the USA. Shame too as the Gun is the best light gun ever, it looks super cool, the D-Pad at the back a touch of genius and I loved how you could put in the Rumble back in the unit for recoil.

The light of light gun in the US was supposedly canned because one of the most shocking school shootings in US history up to that point (Columbine) had happened less than 6 months before launch. Video games were already getting bad press and they didn't want to risk backlash over it. Looking back it's sad now that people are still using games as a scapegoat.

Team Andromeda
08-13-2019, 04:03 AM
MDK2 on Dreamcast I hated for the controls. That game needed a second analog stick if I remember right.

The controls were fine in that. What with using the Y button to go forward, A backwards and the Analogue pad to aim, That's how I used to play Duke on the 3D Pad on the Saturn and much like the controls I used for GoldenEye. The lack of a 2nd Analogue pad was a pain for games like Shenmue mind and the DC pad, really should have had six face buttons, if nothing else.

Team Andromeda
08-13-2019, 04:09 AM
The light of light gun in the US was supposedly canned because one of the most shocking school shootings in US history up to that point (Columbine) had happened less than 6 months before launch. Video games were already getting bad press and they didn't want to risk backlash over it. Looking back it's sad now that people are still using games as a scapegoat.

Yeah, I seem to remember id (makers of Doom) and the publisher facing court actions over such mass shootings. It's sad really, since the light gun was if anything, the best one ever made, but I can understand why SEGA America didn't want to risk it, given their limited funds.
Video games being blamed is nothing new and a pathetic scapegoat; I remember video games being blamed for the Virginia Tech shootings, rather than the USA insane need for automatic guns (and well Guns in general) I also feel the same for 80's horror films (which were labelled video nasties in the UK) and blamed

Leynos
08-13-2019, 05:55 AM
I got one of these for my DC

https://i.imgur.com/VAKKWjK.jpg

Team Andromeda
08-13-2019, 08:15 AM
I went for the official model myself.

https://i.imgur.com/2ebnr8N.jpg



It was also a mad and expensive month at the import shop, with House of the Dead II, Super Speed Racing, Marvel vs. Capcom and Blue Stinger all coming out at more or less the same week.
What a great and expensive gaming month that was

gamevet
08-13-2019, 02:38 PM
I have both of those light guns. Neither one of them works with Confidential Mission.

Team Andromeda
08-13-2019, 03:11 PM
Strange I have the Pal version and it works floorless with the Official SEGA DC Gun.

https://i.imgur.com/SXzOlMu.jpg

gamevet
08-13-2019, 09:26 PM
I hope it does have a floor. ;p

I've heard that these guns work fine with some sets and not very well with others. I really need to look into fixing my good old 1995 Trinitron.

Virtua Hunter
08-14-2019, 07:42 AM
Like the DC, but the laser issue now is making it a paper weight. Makes it too problematic to bother with.

I understand you can modify it to have a SD card (GDEMU?) and run the games that way, so for a playing console in future I'd give this modification a crack. Haven't looked for replacement lasers for a while but doubt it's progressed anywhere?

Unfortunately no progress, GDEMU and co. just killed any chance to have new replacement lasers, since community seems happy that way.
And those mods are also reducing the number of original DC on the market, since now ebay is full of ugly modded DC.

In my opinion, the real deal is having a working console at 100% in every part, and mantaining it original and working for the longest time possible, otherwise what's the point?

If you want piracy just go to emulation without destroying classic rare hardware, that's what I hate about the current Dreamcast community.

shifted
08-14-2019, 08:18 PM
Unfortunately no progress, GDEMU and co. just killed any chance to have new replacement lasers, since community seems happy that way.
And those mods are also reducing the number of original DC on the market, since now ebay is full of ugly modded DC.

In my opinion, the real deal is having a working console at 100% in every part, and mantaining it original and working for the longest time possible, otherwise what's the point?

If you want piracy just go to emulation without destroying classic rare hardware, that's what I hate about the current Dreamcast community.

That's sad, I was hoping there was some progress to get a replacement laser.

All 3 of my current consoles are paperweights, I tried adjusting the little screw for hours on each one and got nowhere, it's cactus. Thing is, buying a second hand-one is like a time bomb as it is - you just don't know when it's going to go.

It's a shame, but I suppose at some point our cartridges and discs will degrade anyway and become useless, which makes me question whether it's worth paying the prices now if it all ends up unusable at some point and would it drop in value then? Will will see complete in box games for sale with unusable CDs and cartridges in mass?

Yharnamresident
08-15-2019, 12:00 AM
But the most disappointing for all ... was to release SEGA Rally II in such a rushed and unfinished state; That game needed to be the showcase for the system, show off the GFX of the DC (Model 3 Step 2 perfection), show off the online side of the DC with Online play, internet rankings and being able to download and upload ghost times and replays Ect (the kind of options one saw in VO II and Buggy Heat) To get SEGA's driving crown back from SONY Instead, we got a lovely game, but one that could and should have been so much better, to make matters worse SEGA GT wasn't really any better.They used Windows CE to port a flagship game series to the Dreamcast. Imagine the graphics it could've had if they created a completely new game engine for the port.



That for me was the big issue on the DC SEGA wise. SEGA never made Football game like WWS 98 on the Saturn, or an In-House racing game that could touch SEGA Rally and not having Camelot make a new Shining game or letting Lobotomy gone down was BIG mistakes for meAhem, this is an international forum, write it this way: Football(soccer) game.


The controls were fine in that. What with using the Y button to go forward, A backwards and the Analogue pad to aim, That's how I used to play Duke on the 3D Pad on the Saturn and much like the controls I used for GoldenEye. The lack of a 2nd Analogue pad was a pain for games like Shenmue mind and the DC pad, really should have had six face buttons, if nothing else.Yes Shenmue should've had GTA III controls in terms of using the analog sticks.


Unfortunately no progress, GDEMU and co. just killed any chance to have new replacement lasers, since community seems happy that way.
And those mods are also reducing the number of original DC on the market, since now ebay is full of ugly modded DC.

In my opinion, the real deal is having a working console at 100% in every part, and mantaining it original and working for the longest time possible, otherwise what's the point?

If you want piracy just go to emulation without destroying classic rare hardware, that's what I hate about the current Dreamcast community.Its not as bad as you think, the average gamer has no interest in modding consoles.

Hell I'm planning to get a mod chip for my Saturn, and if I ever wanted to remove it, I'd just have to unsolder 1 cord.

Team Andromeda
08-16-2019, 12:58 AM
I've heard that these guns work fine with some sets and not very well with others. I really need to look into fixing my good old 1995 Trinitron.

Well over the years, I've played my copy on Hitachi, Phillips, SONY CRT sets and even a cheap Bush set and the lightgun works fine.

Team Andromeda
08-16-2019, 01:17 AM
They used Windows CE to port a flagship game series to the Dreamcast. Imagine the graphics it could've had if they created a completely new game engine for the port.


There was an interview with Smilebit and they said they didn't just use CE to help with porting over the PC code, but because at the time SEGA official development kits internet code wasn't finished and the Isao servers weren't ready and using Win CE helped with the online side of things (the Japanese version had support for online player). Really the game just needed to be delayed and it should have been a showcase for the system. At the time Rally and Driving games were doing really well in Europe and one can only think how well a Dreamcast Rally II would have sold (and sold the system) with Arcade Perfect Model 3 step2 visuals, all the DC extra's and full Head to Head online play and the options to upload and download times, replays and full Internet rankings Ect ...


Ahem, this is an international forum, write it this way: Football(soccer) game

Ahem, Sorry we're British and to use and most people around the world, Soccer is Football (the clue is in the name) and also to us British Baseball is Rounders LOL. Jokes aside. SEGA had grown Victory Goal/WWS into class football series, with amazing visuals. Really SEGA Japan should have the Saturn WWS team working on a direct sequel and look to have worked with Genki/AV on using the Virtual Striker 2 code base, to produce a stunning looking and playing footy game. Virtual Striker 2 GFX was simply amazing at the time.

This could have been another DC title to help the system out in Europe.


Yes Shenmue should've had GTA III controls in terms of using the analog sticks.

Yes and it also hurt a few other games. But really six face buttons should have been on the controller.


People can say this and that with SEGA. But I like to think of practical measures SEGA could have done with its limited funds; Rally II should have been a showcase, The WWS team should have been tasked with making a visually stunning looking and great playing game and SEGA should have stepped in when Lombtomy were having cash flow issues, and even bought them outright, bought shares or given them the Half Life port. A Lobotomy made Half Life port on the DC, could have been a really system showcase and also help the system for sales ...

Yharnamresident
08-16-2019, 05:18 PM
There was an interview with Smilebit and they said they didn't just use CE to help with porting over the PC code, but because at the time SEGA official development kits internet code wasn't finished and the Isao servers weren't ready and using Win CE helped with the online side of things (the Japanese version had support for online player). Really the game just needed to be delayed and it should have been a showcase for the system. At the time Rally and Driving games were doing really well in Europe and one can only think how well a Dreamcast Rally II would have sold (and sold the system) with Arcade Perfect Model 3 step2 visuals, all the DC extra's and full Head to Head online play and the options to upload and download times, replays and full Internet rankings Ect ...I never owned a Dreamcast back in the day, the only game I knew it had was Crazy Taxi, and thats a game I've never given a shit about and still don't give a shit about.

If they had a Sega Rally 2 port with very impressive graphics and decent marketing(so I actually know the game exists), I would've begged for a Dreamcast. I was playing Gran Turismo 2 at the time and spent tons of time in the rally races in it.




Ahem, Sorry we're British and to use and most people around the world, Soccer is Football (the clue is in the name) and also to us British Baseball is Rounders LOL. Jokes aside. SEGA had grown Victory Goal/WWS into class football series, with amazing visuals. Really SEGA Japan should have the Saturn WWS team working on a direct sequel and look to have worked with Genki/AV on using the Virtual Striker 2 code base, to produce a stunning looking and playing footy game. Virtual Striker 2 GFX was simply amazing at the time.I downloaded the Virtua Striker 2 ISO a couple weeks ago, stay tuned to see what kind of performance it has.



People can say this and that with SEGA. But I like to think of practical measures SEGA could have done with its limited funds; Rally II should have been a showcase, The WWS team should have been tasked with making a visually stunning looking and great playing game and SEGA should have stepped in when Lombtomy were having cash flow issues, and even bought them outright, bought shares or given them the Half Life port. A Lobotomy made Half Life port on the DC, could have been a really system showcase and also help the system for sales ...I know Bernie finished off Sega as a hardware manufacturer, but one of the very smart things he did was buy Visual Concepts. He likely should've bought Lobotomy too, but the thought probably never crossed his mind.

gamevet
08-16-2019, 06:26 PM
Well over the years, I've played my copy on Hitachi, Phillips, SONY CRT sets and even a cheap Bush set and the lightgun works fine.

Confidential Mission doesn’t work with any of the available light guns in North America, when playing on a 2002 27” Sony Wega.

Team Andromeda
08-17-2019, 05:34 AM
Confidential Mission doesn’t work with any of the available light guns in North America, when playing on a 2002 27” Sony Wega.

Very strange it worked fine with my Philips 32 Matchline 100hz TV and that was always the TV I was most worried about. Sadly all my CRT have died over the years and all I'm left with is my tiny 14' SONY and I hate playing any games on it tbh, given its so small

Team Andromeda
08-17-2019, 05:43 AM
I never owned a Dreamcast back in the day, the only game I knew it had was Crazy Taxi, and thats a game I've never given a shit about and still don't give a shit about.

I'm not the biggest fan of Crazy Taxi, but it was fun and looked great back inthe day. For me Sega Rally II needed to be perfect and a showcase for the Internet functions of the DC, it was nither.
Sadly it took SEGA until Virtual ON II to do that, more or less perfect and packed with incredible internet features for the time (Jp version)


I downloaded the Virtua Striker 2 ISO a couple weeks ago, stay tuned to see what kind of performance it has
I wouldn't imagine very good, it looked stunning at the time (even better than the Model 3 version) and just a stunning NAOMI port , Genki really knew how to push the DC.


I know Bernie finished off Sega as a hardware manufacturer, but one of the very smart things he did was buy Visual Concepts
He left, just after the launch of the DC, he did more to finish off the Saturn tbh. To his credit, he did do a lot of good things with the DC.

Captivation Digital just mishandled the DC project of Half Life . The port really should have been given to Lobotomy and a cash injection via SEGA. I doubt it would have made a difference in the end, but a Showcase SEGA Rally II and Half Life ports on the DC with full use of the Internet fuctions, might have shifted a few DC's and made the system more of a must have

Virtua Hunter
08-17-2019, 08:33 AM
That's sad, I was hoping there was some progress to get a replacement laser.

All 3 of my current consoles are paperweights, I tried adjusting the little screw for hours on each one and got nowhere, it's cactus. Thing is, buying a second hand-one is like a time bomb as it is - you just don't know when it's going to go.

It's a shame, but I suppose at some point our cartridges and discs will degrade anyway and become useless, which makes me question whether it's worth paying the prices now if it all ends up unusable at some point and would it drop in value then? Will will see complete in box games for sale with unusable CDs and cartridges in mass?

I think it's a long was until cartridges and discs will become useless, so it's a bit extreme in my opinion to go already for things like GDemu etc.

It's like classic cars, eventually every original parts will fails and become hard to find, but that's not a good reason to transform a classic car in a frankenstein. In fact for classic cars there are many shops who build new custom spare parts.

I don't know why gaming communities can't organize to do the same, to preserve original functionality of consoles.


Sega should have used better parts for Dreamcast especially the lasers, and maybe abandon instead the modem, that probably was the main reason why they used so many cheap parts on the DC.

gamevet
08-17-2019, 11:20 AM
It was a $200 console, with a really fast CD drive. There’s no way to sell it that low, using high end CD drives. Hell, look at the quality of the PS and PS2 drives.

Virtua Hunter
08-17-2019, 11:47 AM
It was a $200 console, with a really fast CD drive. There’s no way to sell it that low, using high end CD drives. Hell, look at the quality of the PS and PS2 drives.


The Gamecube was $199 and it used its own format too, a custom miniDVD.
But Nintendo used high quality components unlike Sega with DC.

So I think Sega should've discarded the DC modem and choose to include high quality and durable parts instead.

Leynos
08-17-2019, 04:17 PM
Maybe Nintendo who was always in pretty good financial shape thought they could eat the cost.

Yharnamresident
08-17-2019, 05:29 PM
Very strange it worked fine with my Philips 32 Matchline 100hz TV and that was always the TV I was most worried about. Sadly all my CRT have died over the years and all I'm left with is my tiny 14' SONY and I hate playing any games on it tbh, given its so smallDude, 14" is almost the size of my tablet.



I wouldn't imagine very good, it looked stunning at the time (even better than the Model 3 version) and just a stunning NAOMI port , Genki really knew how to push the DC.
No it does actually have decent performance, I looked at it on an emulator and it often hits 1.5 million vertices.



Sega should have used better parts for Dreamcast especially the lasers, and maybe abandon instead the modem, that probably was the main reason why they used so many cheap parts on the DC.No the reason the Dreamcast has a cheap laser, is because they used a high-quality laser for the Saturn and that made them decide it was good place to cut costs.

gamevet
08-18-2019, 12:04 AM
The Gamecube was $199 and it used its own format too, a custom miniDVD.
But Nintendo used high quality components unlike Sega with DC.

So I think Sega should've discarded the DC modem and choose to include high quality and durable parts instead.

There's nothing custom about the DVD drive, other than it only having enough tray space for the smaller DVD. Look at just about every CD and DVD player tray, and you'll notice that it has a space for a smaller disc. Those smaller discs were around for quite some time. Nintendo just didn't pay for the license to use DVD video playback, which was later offered with the Panasonic Q.

The GPU was designed by former members of SGI, at ArtX. AMD bought out a majority share of the company's stock, right before the GC was released. Nintendo was obviously funding ArtX, making for reduced product pricing for them. The GC is an elegantly designed console, that doesn't use expensive hardware to get the job done. Nintendo has always done it that way, and as such, they run a much tighter ship then all of the other companies in the video game market. They know how to get the most bang for the buck than any of those other companies.

Team Andromeda
08-18-2019, 02:21 AM
Dude, 14" is almost the size of my tablet.

I used hate playing my Master System on my 14' Sharp TV when I was a kid and was always having a telling off by my mum, when I would set the Master System up downstairs on the 27' Tv (Only over Christmas was I allowed to use the big downstairs TV) I hated it back then and since I've grown up, I've played games on big TV's. 14' TV is painful to use in this day and age.


No it does actually have decent performance, I looked at it on an emulator and it often hits 1.5 million vertices

It's not good enough, it's way off the Model 3 game, not just with the slowdown, but the water and muck spray, debris effects are shockingly poor in the DC version compared to the Arcade and in the replays its what makes the DC version look far worse. Rally II should have also been a showcase for the Online part of the DC; with Online Head to head, Online rankings and being able to upload and download players ghost and replay data Ect

Gryson
08-18-2019, 10:33 AM
So I think Sega should've discarded the DC modem and choose to include high quality and durable parts instead.

Recently revealed fact: Isao Okawa (Sega chairman, CSK owner) used his own personal money to pay for every single Dreamcast modem. Each unit cost about $30. So not including the modem would not have changed anything.

Team Andromeda
08-18-2019, 10:51 AM
Recently revealed fact: Isao Okawa (Sega chairman, CSK owner) used his own personal money to pay for every single Dreamcast modem. Each unit cost about $30. So not including the modem would not have changed anything.

The late GREAT Mr Iaso was SEGA to the core , Sega was never the same after his death .... The man was a SEGA GOD

Virtua Hunter
08-18-2019, 01:26 PM
Recently revealed fact: Isao Okawa (Sega chairman, CSK owner) used his own personal money to pay for every single Dreamcast modem. Each unit cost about $30. So not including the modem would not have changed anything.

Really?
In that recent Dreamcast documentary, Yoot Saito mentioned especially the modem as one of the reason why Sega could not profit with DC.
As part of Sega at time, he should've known if modem was paid entirely by Okawa...

But if that's true, he (Okawa) was the one who pushed to have modem included and he paid with his personal money...Okawa was great.
Do you have the source? I'd like to read the original article.

But I still agree with Yoot Saito, Sega miscalulate the profit point with DC, using expensive parts on one side and cheap components on the other and still they had to sell 2 games per console to profit...surely they could have done a better job in this regard, to reach profitability more easly with a good hardware and with durable components, like Nintendo did with Gamecube.

Gryson
08-18-2019, 04:07 PM
Really?
In that recent Dreamcast documentary, Yoot Saito mentioned especially the modem as one of the reason why Sega could not profit with DC.
As part of Sega at time, he should've known if modem was paid entirely by Okawa...

Well, first, I don't think Yoot Saito was actually a Sega employee, was he? Didn't he just serve in some advisory role? Anyway, I think it's safe to say that most employees were not kept up-to-date on the inner workings of the Sega leadership.


But if that's true, he (Okawa) was the one who pushed to have modem included and he paid with his personal money...Okawa was great.
Do you have the source? I'd like to read the original article.

It came up in the recent talk with Yoichi Miyaji (of Game Arts). There is no article. Translation:

"Each Dreamcast modem cost 3,000 yen, but they were all paid for with Okawa's personal money. In the end, Okawa gave Sega 135 billion yen of his own money."

https://twitter.com/Va_HARA/status/1157670225422123009

I should note that Yoichi Miyaji was probably in a better position than Yoot Saito to know this kind of info, since Miyaji had long been involved in Sega hardware development (he had a huge hand in the final specs of the Mega CD, for example). And this info does confirm other sources saying that Okawa gave Sega that money during the Dreamcast days.


But I still agree with Yoot Saito, Sega miscalulate the profit point with DC, using expensive parts on one side and cheap components on the other and still they had to sell 2 games per console to profit...surely they could have done a better job in this regard, to reach profitability more easly with a good hardware and with durable components, like Nintendo did with Gamecube.

Two games per console to break even is incredibly good. For the Saturn, it was about eight games per console (depending on the time).

axel
08-18-2019, 07:46 PM
I wouldn't have changed anything about the hardware, for 1998/1999 it was fine especially for the price. That's why it's so disappointing to me it didn't last longer. If Sega had been doing better financially maybe we would have seen an upgraded model or successor (maybe a Dreamcast 2, following the Naomi 2) that would have included a DVD drive and redesigned controllers.

shifted
08-18-2019, 08:59 PM
I think it's a long was until cartridges and discs will become useless, so it's a bit extreme in my opinion to go already for things like GDemu etc.

Not sure how long off it would be, probably depends on exposure, use, contaminants etc. I'd imagine given some carts are reaching 40 years of age we would start seeing some bit-rot etc.


It's like classic cars, eventually every original parts will fails and become hard to find, but that's not a good reason to transform a classic car in a frankenstein. In fact for classic cars there are many shops who build new custom spare parts.

I don't know why gaming communities can't organize to do the same, to preserve original functionality of consoles.

Difference with a classic car is there's a market because of their value, where's the console that's worth $100k and therefore worth investing in some money to keep the parts alive? The demographic that affords it is very different.

Would be great to see a drive replacement to keep the originality.

StuOhQ
08-18-2019, 09:54 PM
The light of light gun in the US was supposedly canned because one of the most shocking school shootings in US history up to that point (Columbine) had happened less than 6 months before launch. Video games were already getting bad press and they didn't want to risk backlash over it. Looking back it's sad now that people are still using games as a scapegoat.

Tell me about it. And House of the Dead 2 sorely needs a lightgun. 2&3 on the Wii doesn't quite cut it.

Yharnamresident
08-18-2019, 11:53 PM
The GPU was designed by former members of SGI, at ArtX. AMD bought out a majority share of the company's stock, right before the GC was released. Nintendo was obviously funding ArtX, making for reduced product pricing for them. The GC is an elegantly designed console, that doesn't use expensive hardware to get the job done. Nintendo has always done it that way, and as such, they run a much tighter ship then all of the other companies in the video game market. They know how to get the most bang for the buck than any of those other companies.Yes internally the GameCube is very well designed, but purple lunchbox?


The late GREAT Mr Iaso was SEGA to the core , Sega was never the same after his death .... The man was a SEGA GODAdam Koralik said that Sega as a company died with Okawa, I feel he is right



But I still agree with Yoot Saito, Sega miscalulate the profit point with DC, using expensive parts on one side and cheap components on the other and still they had to sell 2 games per console to profit...surely they could have done a better job in this regard, to reach profitability more easly with a good hardware and with durable components, like Nintendo did with Gamecube.2 games per console is a very good ratio, imagine how many Dreamcast owners bought 2 games.


Nintendo goes overboard with making their hardware cheap as possible to produce. Like what happen GameCube component cables was a catastrophe disaster, because they tried to save some money.

Team Andromeda
08-19-2019, 01:07 AM
But I still agree with Yoot Saito, Sega miscalulate the profit point with DC, using expensive parts on one side and cheap components on the other and still they had to sell 2 games per console to profit...surely they could have done a better job in this regard, to reach profitability more easly with a good hardware and with durable components, like Nintendo did with Gamecube.

I don't think SEGA miscalculated really. The DC was a great system and SEGA were really developing amazing games and should have expected better software sales, but Dreamcast software sales were poor when you consider the quality of them.
I mean Skies Of Arcadia is one of the amazing RPG's ever made, but even in Japan the sales were poor.

Leynos
08-19-2019, 02:33 AM
Not like PS2 phat use that great of parts either. The laser had issues and those phat PS2's had a tendency to fail. Also only had 2 controller ports. Yeah, the DVD thing and the brand name carried it out of the gate. I don't care about DVD playback even then but I still wish DC had a DVD drive so it would use discs with a larger capacity. Xbox had PSU problems. They issued that new power cord they sent to users who requested it. Gamecube is/was that Nokia meme. Thing is a tank. People have burned it. Dropped it from a high distance and hit with sledgehammers on video and it still turned on.

Team Andromeda
08-19-2019, 05:18 AM
The PS and PS 2 lens were crap , the XBox Thomson drives were rubbish too

gamevet
08-19-2019, 09:50 PM
Yes internally the GameCube is very well designed, but purple lunchbox?

All black baby!


http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15079&d=1566262170

Leynos
08-19-2019, 10:00 PM
I had a launch black one but gave it to a nephew and later bought a used silver one. Tho I would take a purple one in a heartbeat. Great color even if it's for a console I'm mostly indifferent on.

gamevet
08-19-2019, 10:08 PM
I wouldn't mind having an orange one with the matching GBA Player. The one bad thing though is, I think that those later models didn't support the component cable.

Yharnamresident
08-20-2019, 01:30 AM
I don't think SEGA miscalculated really. The DC was a great system and SEGA were really developing amazing games and should have expected better software sales, but Dreamcast software sales were poor when you consider the quality of them.
I mean Skies Of Arcadia is one of the amazing RPG's ever made, but even in Japan the sales were poor.
The GameCube and OG Xbox were also taking the same beating from the PS2 that the Dreamcast did, the only difference is Nintendo and Microsoft could financially afford it.

I've said it 20 times and I'll say it once more, during the prime of the 6th-gen(1999-2006), I never knew or met someone that had anything other than a PS2.


Not like PS2 phat use that great of parts either. The laser had issues and those phat PS2's had a tendency to fail. Also only had 2 controller ports. Yeah, the DVD thing and the brand name carried it out of the gate. I don't care about DVD playback even then but I still wish DC had a DVD drive so it would use discs with a larger capacity. Xbox had PSU problems. They issued that new power cord they sent to users who requested it. Gamecube is/was that Nokia meme. Thing is a tank. People have burned it. Dropped it from a high distance and hit with sledgehammers on video and it still turned on.Its fine they went with that proprietary format, but they should've went with something that had 3-4 GBs, not 1.2 GBs.


All black baby!


http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15079&d=1566262170Nice, my GameCube is indeed purple. Theres a purple lunchbox in the closet behind me.

Team Andromeda
08-20-2019, 04:00 AM
The GameCube and OG Xbox were also taking the same beating from the PS2 that the Dreamcast did, the only difference is Nintendo and Microsoft could financially afford it.


I sort of think you are wrong on that one TBH. Nintendo didn't lose money on the Cube, they just lost a lot of market share, but the Cube still was profitable for them. I think MS OG Xbox boasted one of the best games to console ratios sold and that's made so many 3rd parties and retail stick with and support the Xbox, even if its Hardware sales were little more than the Cube; Xbox Owners bought a lot of software. MS issue was in a rush to get the system out they did some bad deals with the Hard Drive and GPU, didn't MS ever take NVidia to court over what they were charging MS per chip.

SEGA big trouble was not just Hardware sales, but the DC low software sales numbers. I mean how can SEGA plan for VF3 just selling over 100,000 copies when the Model 3 game was a monster hit in Japan, JSR selling less than 16,000 copies in its 1st week and Skies Of Arcadia not even getting past 200,000 copies in its 1st week. When Saturn and PS RPG's would sell way more in the 1st week, and nowhere near the quality. Its was so sad and so unfair tbh.


I've said it 20 times and I'll say it once more, during the prime of the 6th-gen(1999-2006), I never knew or met someone that had anything other than a PS2

Growing up I never knew anyone who didn't own Zx Spectrum, Atari ST, Master System and Mega Drive. I knew of no one who owned an NES (other than my brother) and only 1 who had a SNES, not just close friends, but in Junior and Comprehensive school
But on the world stage systems sell and do differently. In my area, all had a PS2, but most also had an XBox for Halo and at the time the Broadband revolution was just hitting me area and all my Xbox LIVE was the Big thing at that time, really Big.

I think Halo 2 is crap myself, but so many of my friends love the Online sections and would have Online party nights and all that. I did love the drunken online laughs with PGR 2 mind.

gamevet
08-20-2019, 04:04 PM
Microsoft had to stop manufacturing the OG Xbox in 2004, because they were losing over $100 per console. They probably could have sold 5 million more units.

Leynos
08-20-2019, 04:19 PM
Gamecube didn't have good market share but they made nothing but profit on it. MS lost billions on Xbox.

Team Andromeda
08-20-2019, 05:23 PM
Microsoft had to stop manufacturing the OG Xbox in 2004, because they were losing over $100 per console. They probably could have sold 5 million more units.

I agree, but I think MS were more worried on allowing the PS3 to get a head start and rushed the 360 out.

Leynos
08-20-2019, 05:41 PM
Also true. MS was in a hurry to beat Sony and that lead to the RROD issue as they rushed it out the door.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
08-20-2019, 06:53 PM
The Dreamcast will always hold a very special place in my heart, in my first job after leaving school I spent most of my earnings on games and peripherals for it, but if I had any complaints about it at all it would be to do with the controller. Perfect for most games but the d-pad was severly lacking and the button layout was absolutely fucking atrocious for playing beat-'em-ups. I played the likes of Street Fighter Alpha 3, Capcom Vs SNK and Marvel Vs Capcom 2 to death on the system and loved them, but I always felt that I was fighting against the controller. Still, that is a small gripe against the console that brought me such unadulterated joy in the form of games like Shenmue 1 & 2, Skies of Arcadia and The House of the Dead 2.

Yharnamresident
08-21-2019, 06:32 PM
I sort of think you are wrong on that one TBH. Nintendo didn't lose money on the Cube, they just lost a lot of market share, but the Cube still was profitable for them. I think MS OG Xbox boasted one of the best games to console ratios sold and that's made so many 3rd parties and retail stick with and support the Xbox, even if its Hardware sales were little more than the Cube; Xbox Owners bought a lot of software. MS issue was in a rush to get the system out they did some bad deals with the Hard Drive and GPU, didn't MS ever take NVidia to court over what they were charging MS per chip.
Yes I'm partly wrong, the GameCube did end up being profitable, but at the beginning you could imagine how much money they invested to compete with PS2. Thats something Sega couldn't afford to do.

But the OG Xbox was the farthest thing from profitable. They lost 4 billion dollars on the thing, and they completely dumped it once the 360 was released. I don't think there was a single 1st party OG Xbox game released in 2006.

Team Andromeda
08-22-2019, 05:13 AM
Yes I'm partly wrong, the GameCube did end up being profitable, but at the beginning you could imagine how much money they invested to compete with PS2. Thats something Sega couldn't afford to do.


That's always been my point. Since the NES, Nintendo had like a $3 billion cash war chest to invest, That's more money in the bank in actual cash reverses than SEGA entire net worth at its height.
It was quite remarkable SEGA did as well as it did with its systems and Arcade boards, to compete with Nintendo and Sony. I mean Sony put over $500 million in the PS hardware (like over a billion in today's money) when people stop to think about it The PS was always going to have better hardware than the Saturn, same for the PS2 vs the DC given the R&D money SONY could put into a project.

I don't think MS was that worried about making money with the OG Xbox, they just wanted to get the brand established and fight the threat of SONY taking over the living room. My point was the OG XBox had one of the best games sold per console ratio and that meant it had great 3rd party and retail support, something the DC never had and that really hurt the DC, even if people were buying the DC they weren't buying much software (and it wasn't just due to piracy, since the OG Xbox is one the most modded console going) For too many the DC was little more than a cheap stopgap until the PS2 came out or came down in price

It was so unfair really. No amount of planning could say games like Sikes would sell as poor as they did. If I so that and PSO midway in development, I'll be saying they'll both be million sellers easy

Virtua Hunter
08-22-2019, 07:39 AM
Well, first, I don't think Yoot Saito was actually a Sega employee, was he? Didn't he just serve in some advisory role? Anyway, I think it's safe to say that most employees were not kept up-to-date on the inner workings of the Sega leadership.



It came up in the recent talk with Yoichi Miyaji (of Game Arts). There is no article. Translation:

"Each Dreamcast modem cost 3,000 yen, but they were all paid for with Okawa's personal money. In the end, Okawa gave Sega 135 billion yen of his own money."

https://twitter.com/Va_HARA/status/1157670225422123009

I should note that Yoichi Miyaji was probably in a better position than Yoot Saito to know this kind of info, since Miyaji had long been involved in Sega hardware development (he had a huge hand in the final specs of the Mega CD, for example). And this info does confirm other sources saying that Okawa gave Sega that money during the Dreamcast days.


Thank you for the source :)




Two games per console to break even is incredibly good. For the Saturn, it was about eight games per console (depending on the time).

Normally yes, but Dreamcast software sold poorly, many first party games barely reached 100k copies, so probably that ratio wasn't reached for the majority of DC owners.

Virtua Hunter
08-22-2019, 08:12 AM
Not like PS2 phat use that great of parts either. The laser had issues and those phat PS2's had a tendency to fail. Also only had 2 controller ports. Yeah, the DVD thing and the brand name carried it out of the gate. I don't care about DVD playback even then but I still wish DC had a DVD drive so it would use discs with a larger capacity. Xbox had PSU problems. They issued that new power cord they sent to users who requested it. Gamecube is/was that Nokia meme. Thing is a tank. People have burned it. Dropped it from a high distance and hit with sledgehammers on video and it still turned on.

Yes PSX and PS2 (first model) lasers were weak, but I always thought it was due to piracy.
Original Playstation 1 and 2 without mods were pretty rare at the time and I never owned those two console (only a ps2 slim), so I can't confirm if those laser were weak also by using original discs.

In any case Dreamcast optical drive were made super cheap even compared to PS, non only the laser diode that have a very limited lifespan especially if used daily, but also the drive motor was cheap, even if the sound of DC accessing the disc is iconic and I really like that :D unfortunately that same sound it's a clear sign of very cheap components.

Nintendo, while they had more money than Sega, they always played super-safe (so they can always profits) and cheap in everything, but choosing al least quality components (at least until Gamecube and DS, from Wii they started to using crap components like everyone else).

I don't have data, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gamecube was cheaper to design and produce than the DC.

Team Andromeda
08-22-2019, 09:20 AM
Yes PSX and PS2 (first model) lasers were weak, but I always thought it was due to piracy.

The PS lens was rubbish and given that everyone and their mum had their PS modded It just made matters worse. I wouldn't mind beating more than 20 million sales of the PS2 and PS were down to people having to buy new ones LOL


but Dreamcast software sold poorly, many first party games barely reached 100k copies
Yeah and that's what killed off the DC more than anything else. Such a shame, how can AAA amazing games like JSR, REZ, Skies, Shenmue II, Ecco, MSR, F355 sell in such poor numbers.

Virtua Hunter
08-22-2019, 10:19 AM
The PS lens was rubbish and given that everyone and their mum had their PS modded It just made matters worse. I wouldn't mind beating more than 20 million sales of the PS2 and PS were down to people having to buy new ones LOL

LOL probably, in fact some of my friends had to buy new PSX during the 32bit generation...
It was very pitiful to see the 32bit generation full of piracy, modded PSX that worked only vertically or upside down, and mediocre games transformed in huge success only thanks to the success of Playstation.

I still think PSX was a piece of junk.




Yeah and that's what killed off the DC more than anything else. Such a shame, how can AAA amazing games like JSR, REZ, Skies, Shenmue II, Ecco, MSR, F355 sell in such poor numbers.

Yeah :( at least games like Sonic Adventure, Shenmue or Soul Calibur become million seller.

gamevet
08-22-2019, 08:20 PM
I thought I’d heard that Shenmu only sold around 650k.






Yeah and that's what killed off the DC more than anything else. Such a shame, how can AAA amazing games like JSR, REZ, Skies, Shenmue II, Ecco, MSR, F355 sell in such poor numbers.

Honestly, a good chunk of DC sales were because of the sports titles. Once Madden became available on the PS2, a lot of those gamers moved on to that console.

Leynos
08-22-2019, 08:41 PM
I don't know how valid it is but there was always that rumor that SEGA needed to sell a copy of Shenmue on every Dreamcast sold to make a profit. I thought the number was 1 million as well.

SegaAMD
08-23-2019, 01:02 AM
Yeah and that's what killed off the DC more than anything else. Such a shame, how can AAA amazing games like JSR, REZ, Skies, Shenmue II, Ecco, MSR, F355 sell in such poor numbers.

I consider 3 reasons: 1) that boot disk 2) ps2 Marketing making big promises 3) ps1 price cut

each of these elements disrupted the dreamcast somehow

For example, ps2 marketing has made Dreamcast obsolete in the minds of some owners, causing them to lose the desire to invest in the platform, we see it today with ps4 xone. the ps1 was redesigned got better looking,
This has taken many potential consumers out of the Dreamcast, because one could afford cheaper and then migrate games to PS2; and piracy was much easier on Dreamcast at time, almost all Dreamcast owners played shenmue but using piracy. This combo Killed Sega's console.

gamevet
08-23-2019, 01:27 AM
I don't know how valid it is but there was always that rumor that SEGA needed to sell a copy of Shenmue on every Dreamcast sold to make a profit. I thought the number was 1 million as well.

Well, it looks like it sold 1.18 Million units, though I do often question the accuracy of VG Charts. Adding up the region numbers, plus other, I came up with 1.14 million.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/2031/shenmue/sales

Team Andromeda
08-23-2019, 04:59 AM
I thought I’d heard that Shenmu only sold around 650k.

Honestly, a good chunk of DC sales were because of the sports titles. Once Madden became available on the PS2, a lot of those gamers moved on to that console.

I'm on about world sales, not just the USA. How could a game as wonderful as Skies sell so poor in Japan (which at the time loved RPG's how could one of the most amazing racers MSR sell so poor in Europe when driving games were selling in decent numbers over here. Shenmue sold in good numbers, but it didn't sell the DC, but it was the poor sales of the sequel that really killed the project with just 60,000 sales for an amazing RPG

Leynos
08-23-2019, 01:13 PM
Then ported it to Gamecube of all places. Canceled the sequel when that sold poorly. lol SEGA :(

Yharnamresident
08-23-2019, 10:56 PM
I don't think MS was that worried about making money with the OG Xbox, they just wanted to get the brand established and fight the threat of SONY taking over the living room. My point was the OG XBox had one of the best games sold per console ratio and that meant it had great 3rd party and retail support, something the DC never had and that really hurt the DC, even if people were buying the DC they weren't buying much software (and it wasn't just due to piracy, since the OG Xbox is one the most modded console going) For too many the DC was little more than a cheap stopgap until the PS2 came out or came down in price
Yes they likely had a strategy for the OG Xbox, it wasn't all about making profit.

Like the OG Xbox was unprofitable, but believe it or not, the 360 was also unprofitable. Its now finally the Xbone is the one thats making profit. Thats a 14 year delay in making profit, only Microsoft is able to pull off something like that.



I'm on about world sales, not just the USA. How could a game as wonderful as Skies sell so poor in Japan (which at the time loved RPG's how could one of the most amazing racers MSR sell so poor in Europe when driving games were selling in decent numbers over here. Shenmue sold in good numbers, but it didn't sell the DC, but it was the poor sales of the sequel that really killed the project with just 60,000 sales for an amazing RPGThose games were released during the time when Sega was in very bad financial shape, they likely couldn't invest in marketing. And Shenmue probably didn't need marketing since it was such a huge blockbuster game that people heard about through various sources.

Team Andromeda
08-29-2019, 04:31 AM
Those games were released during the time when Sega was in very bad financial shape, they likely couldn't invest in marketing. And Shenmue probably didn't need marketing since it was such a huge blockbuster game that people heard about through various sources.

In Japan SEGA Japan spent a fortune pushing Shenmue and Skies and yet they didn't sell in great numbers. I think Shenmue PR most prob helped push up its huge costs. Some games or systems don't help themselves, but the DC so deserved to sell more and games like Skies on the DC alone, should have been a million-seller, It was so unfair.

SegaDreamcast
08-30-2019, 01:51 PM
Personally, the Dreamcast controller is my favorite of all home consoles. I thought the VMUs were amazing with the addition of Chao mini-games in Sonic Adventure and generally something always on their screen when you played a game. Just wish they didn't make that beeping sound when they ran out of battery.

Yharnamresident
08-31-2019, 01:41 AM
Personally, the Dreamcast controller is my favorite of all home consoles. I thought the VMUs were amazing with the addition of Chao mini-games in Sonic Adventure and generally something always on their screen when you played a game. Just wish they didn't make that beeping sound when they ran out of battery.

Well when I created this thread, I was prepared to do a lot of agree to disagreeing about the Dreamcast controller.

Team Andromeda
08-31-2019, 04:51 AM
I will say one good think about the DC Pad, for the analogue stick is the best one going

Virtua Hunter
09-02-2019, 10:06 AM
I will say one good think about the DC Pad, for the analogue stick is the best one going

yeah, the stick was pretty good, and probably one of the most durable.
Surely they didn't use cheap parts for the pad.

Heresy Dragon
10-01-2019, 11:24 PM
From the moment I saw the DC controller upon it's unveiling in mid 1998, I never liked it. Yes, it's modeled on the excellent Saturn 3D pad, and it was okay for most of SEGA's arcade conversions. But for most other games, which, at the time, were becoming more complex with more input commands, it was lacking enough buttons. Immediately it is missing two face buttons, which are essential for a large part of what the DC is remembered for: Capcom fighting games. While I love the analogue stick and the analogue triggers, especially for racing games, as others have mentioned on here, the triggers are RSI inducing after long plays. The controller is too angular in its design and is far from comfortable to use for long periods. These days, people complain about the lack of a second analogue pad. This wasn't something that I felt was necessary back in the late 90s, but playing any first-person shooters or third person action-adventure games now reveals how important it was to have this feature in an era where these genres were becoming much more popular and camera control was becoming a necessity for players. The cord coming out of the bottom is an odd choice but I can live with it since you can clip it on the back anyway.

What I found odd is that SEGA seemed to be thinking backwards when developing the DC controller and memory card system. Yes, rumble was becoming a staple of games, but Sony chose the right route and built it into their controllers rather than needing an accessory like the N64. Why didn't SEGA do this? It would have made the DC pad less bulky without the need for a second expansion port.

Further, the Mega CD and Saturn had internal save data instead of requiring memory cards (even if an expansion cart was eventually needed if you had a sizable collection). In this way, requiring a memory card, like you needed for the PS1, makes the the VMU seemed like a step backwards, especially considering how little data you could store on it. I understand Tamagochi was big around this time and I can see why SEGA implemented this into the design, but I have never tried any of the VMU games because the style of games were far too limited to interest me. That said, I like how some developers, such as Capcom with the Resident Evil games, took the initiative and made use of the VMU as a second screen for vital information, like health and ammo, 14 years before the release of the Wii U.

Don't get me wrong: I love the Dreamcast and it's library of games. It was a time of huge innovation from SEGA. I've just never been fond of the controller and VMU because they seem like a step backwards to me, of SEGA copying its rivals rather than being the innovative and independent hardware manufacturer they had been before this.

Yharnamresident
11-23-2019, 01:30 AM
Something just came to my mind. They did the right thing by releasing the broadband adapter, thats part of the theme of this thread of getting the console more similar to its competitors. So they got that right. They also needed a updated controller and memory cards, DVD cases and possibly Component output, would've made it perfect as a 6th gen competitor.

kdubmods
01-08-2020, 10:45 AM
That Windows CE logo.

Otherwise, I enjoyed my time with NBA 2K2.

SegaAMD
01-08-2020, 12:17 PM
I agree with everything that is written in the OP and I like SEGA and the more I like SEGA the less I like Dreamcast, the console is poorly engineered, and it shouldn't use GD it should be normal CD, it should be bigger and it should have support to an elegant expansion where you could easily swap the entire CD rom block for an ADD-on DVD rom. the add-on would come with more internal memory and auxiliary chips. The only thing they got right was to keep a single analog, two analogs would be an insult IMO.


Every strategy and concept behind Dreamcast was totally wrong, so the console deserved its end.

Leynos
01-08-2020, 02:26 PM
I agree with everything that is written in the OP and I like SEGA and the more I like SEGA the less I like Dreamcast, the console is poorly engineered, and it shouldn't use GD it should be normal CD, it should be bigger and it should have support to an elegant expansion where you could easily swap the entire CD rom block for an ADD-on DVD rom. the add-on would come with more internal memory and auxiliary chips. The only thing they got right was to keep a single analog, two analogs would be an insult IMO.


Every strategy and concept behind Dreamcast was totally wrong, so the console deserved its end.
https://i.imgur.com/iM0VrYe.gif

SegaDreamcast
01-08-2020, 05:17 PM
If anything the Sega Dreamcast was way, way beyond its time. First to really bring broadband/online gameplay to the masses, MMORPG in Phantasy Star Online, experiment with microphones in a certain Leonard Nimoy voiced classic, keyboard/mouse/internet integration. Picture perfect arcade gameplay for in many ways the last generation of arcades with the Model 3 conversions and incredible Capcom lineup (Marvel vs Capcom, Power Stone). Sports games that not only innovated but set the standard. NBA2K is still the defacto king today. Exclusives like Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Soul Calibur. Sega did everything right for the 9/9/99 launch, great variety of titles for everyone.

I feel it was more general media attention towards waiting for the PS2 that hurt the Dreamcast sales wise from gaining its rightful share. Along with the combo of pulling the plug on several consoles early like the Saturn and 32X consecutively that created consumer skepticism. Sega should have stayed the course, instead of going third party imo.

gamevet
01-09-2020, 02:22 AM
I agree with everything that is written in the OP and I like SEGA and the more I like SEGA the less I like Dreamcast, the console is poorly engineered, and it shouldn't use GD it should be normal CD, it should be bigger and it should have support to an elegant expansion where you could easily swap the entire CD rom block for an ADD-on DVD rom. the add-on would come with more internal memory and auxiliary chips. The only thing they got right was to keep a single analog, two analogs would be an insult IMO.


Every strategy and concept behind Dreamcast was totally wrong, so the console deserved its end.

The GD ROM disc could store more data and wasn't as easily pirated as a CD ROM disc. That eventually got cracked, but still, it was a better solution than a standard CD.

SegaAMD
01-09-2020, 06:29 AM
The GD ROM disc could store more data and wasn't as easily pirated as a CD ROM disc. That eventually got cracked, but still, it was a better solution than a standard CD.


The point is that this media would be obsolete anyway, by suggesting to use the normal CD I aimed to lower the cost, because in the future would offer an add-on for a higher media similar to dvd. if it wasn't to be so then it was better not even to launch Dreamcast in 98, leave it to 2001.

Expansion port is a feature of SEGA that was abandoned in Dreamcast project

But everything that involves this console is wrong, even some games of it should not have existed, I feel that Bernie Stolar wanted a console that looked like the Playstation 1 in simplicity at the same time thought that could recover market if it was released before the playstation 2, There are many miscalculations, release first in a generation is a very big risk, chances of failure are huge, in the history of consoles only two consoles were successful before entering first than competitor, xbox 360 and Genesis, xbox 360 because managed to make a worldwide launch and hit 10M quickly before the PS3 arrived, of course Sony helped make the PS3 very expensive.

Team Andromeda
01-11-2020, 08:50 AM
, I feel that Bernie Stolar wanted a console that looked like the Playstation 1 in simplicity at the same time thought that could recover market if it was released before the playstation 2, There are many miscalculations, release first in a generation is a very big risk, chances of failure are huge, in the history of consoles only two consoles were successful before entering first than competitor, xbox 360 and Genesis, xbox 360 because managed to make a worldwide launch and hit 10M quickly before the PS3 arrived, of course Sony helped make the PS3 very expensive.

I think that was more SEGA Japan with them doing focus testing and getting feedback that the Saturn pad had too many buttons Ect.
Thanks to that silly focus testing we got a DC pad with only one analogue stick and just 4 face buttons, which was a utter cock up. I still say Bernie did a good job with the launch of the DC its just a shame he upset the likes of Working Designs and Shiny entertainment
I really think WD would have looked to have translated the likes of Sakura Wars III for the Dreamcast

For me though the biggest mistakes were made by SEGA Japan with their software.

Daytona USA 2001 should have included all the tracks and cars from the Model 2 and Model 3 games as well as the new stuff.

Sega Rally II should have been delayed and made used SEGA's latest tools to get the game up to Model 3 visuals. It should have also had Online play and support online ranking modes, and players being to upload and download save replays.

The World Wide Soccer Saturn team should have been put to making a sequel on the DC.

SEGA Japan should have supported Camelot better with Scenario 3 and then had the team to begin work on a Dreamcast sequel.

Jurassic Park: The lost World Gun Game should have been ported to the Dreamcast. For me at the time it was the best light gun game around and looked amazing.

Deep Fear Should have been canned for the Saturn and moved up to DC production.

SEGA GT - Needed to be so much better and why was it given to AM#1 and not to AM#2 or AM#3 to handle: Teams who Racers did so much better

zyrobs
01-12-2020, 05:30 AM
Expansion port is a feature of SEGA that was abandoned in Dreamcast project

The DC has an expansion port. It is used by a bunch of accessories like the Karaoke board, the BBA, and the modem.

gamevet
01-12-2020, 11:00 PM
The point is that this media would be obsolete anyway, by suggesting to use the normal CD I aimed to lower the cost, because in the future would offer an add-on for a higher media similar to dvd. if it wasn't to be so then it was better not even to launch Dreamcast in 98, leave it to 2001.


The GameCube had a mini DVD and couldn't play DVD movies, yet the console sold 22 million units.

The reality is that Sega, Nintendo and Microsoft had to battle against a followup to one of the most succesful consoles ever. The original PlayStation outsold the combined numbers of the SNES and N64. The PS2 was gauranteed to be a success before any console hit retail. None of the other consoles had that luxury. Sony could have just walked up to the podium at E3 1999 and said "PS2 October 2000" and it would of had the same impact as their $299 announcement for their previous console.

SegaAMD
01-12-2020, 11:49 PM
I respect his point of view, but disagree. as I delve into what I call 'console strategy' I'm passionate about the theme, and when I said Dreamcast was operating the opposite way of success, I feel I'm 99% right, it's boring to say that, because DC It is one of my favorite consoles of all time.

Since you cited GCN's 22 million units sold, there are profound differences between the DC strategy and the GCN strategy.

- Dreamcast first console sixth gen, and who enters first is more likely to fail, mathematically what I am saying is wrong, the numbers say leaving first is an advantage, but in the real world empirically historically, 6 consoles came out first and from those 6 Only 2 achieved relative success 4 are absolute flop, but none of them beat the generation that disputed.

GCN on the other hand did what was right, then came out with more elaborate and low priced graphics but got it wrong in ordering, they should somehow debut with Mario subshine in place of luigi and then take a break from cartoon games to Avoid being taxed on kiddie as it was.

The problem with any strategy is that it doesn't take into account the reaction of the competition (it is not inert)

The idea of ​​Dreamcast was to get ahead and create a fast base and become viable.

The idea of ​​GCN was to have good graphics and games that people wanted buy, a cheap console.

In both cases Sony reacted, the Dreamcast was fought by the redesign of the PS1 (best selling console of 2000) was cooled by games like Chrono Cross, FF9 and Vagrant Story. Parallel to this Sony used a tactic I call it ''freeze'', which was to announce the PS2 on the day of the Japanese release of DC and Sony gave no date, so people thought the PS2 would come out sometime in 1999 then (see). they stopped buying Dreamcast (simple as that) waiting PS2, there are reports of people returning DC in stores and trading ps1 games.

But SEGA planned to launch in the west, what did Sony do? did an event at a very close date where this time she played the Playstation 2 for the first time, did some stech demo too, what was the impact? DC sales after the American release dropped, things got worse until on holiday 2000 Dreamcast sales were almost nil so Peter Moore called the meeting with the Jopones and there they pulled the plug in January 2001.


To defeat the GCN Sony used a standard strategy, price cut, the GCN was released in November 2001 for $ 199, Sony released in that period its best games MGS2, GT3, FFX, GTA3, Jak, Dark Alliance. Gamecube's impact was reduced GTA 3 was a success. After a while, May 2001 the PS2 cuts its price to $ 199 and sales went up 700% Sony took the opportunity to announce the 2002 lineup with GTA Vice City, Onimusha 2 and KH1, VF4, the impact of PS2 sales was so It's great that almost all Xbox games flopped that year, and GCN even releasing their best games was no use, so from then on Nintendo and Microsoft could no longer threaten the PS2.

every company has a vision and they believe in their vision but often they fail they make mistakes because it is human people inside the company who make the decisions, the nintendo CEO didn't wake up in the morning and said, 'let's make a Wii U flopped '' no! they thought they could repeat the success of the Wii, they made everything similar name, backwards compatibility ... but in the end flopped, they were wrong to think that the casual audience is faithful, the casual migrated to smartphones ...

Wools
03-02-2020, 06:48 AM
The title says it all, the Dreamcast would be my favourite console if it weren't for these 2 elements. I find them both to be very braindead decisions, but they could've been corrected if the Dreamcast had a relaunch in 2001/2002. I've mentioned these before in a couple threads, but I decided to make a dedicated thread for them.

1. Severely limited and outdated controller
2. Insanely small memory card space

So yes I do think theres a couple flaws with the Dreamcast hardware, however I don't think theres anything wrong with the main console itself. It has a very aesthetic design, much better than a purple lunchbox or a huge black and lime green slab. Oh yes, the console laser is pretty loud but thats a more minor thing, and could've been corrected with a model revision, similar to what we saw with Genesis model 1 vs model 2.

Theres a lot of debate about the Dreamcast controller, so let me know if you disagree with what I've said.

You touch upon it on your 3rd paragraph but my main flaws with playing the Dreamcast in 2020 in offending order are; The lack of modern display output connections, the console noise is unbelievably loud and the fragility of DC discs.

However, with ReDream all those issues go away and it reminds you just how wonderful the Dreamcast is. Just Windows CE support to go then I can enjoy the entire DC back catalogue with no comprises like you would with the original hardware.

I know it's not widely championed in enthusiast communities but modern emulation is so good with ReDream, I urge you to give it a go. I was playing Resident Evil Code Veronica, Soul Calibur and Daytona USA 2001 over the weekend and playing the games on ReDream with no issues, with an Xbox One Controller, with widescreen hacks all in 2K resolution on my PC, reminds you just what a marvelous console the Dreamcast was and can look like in 2020.

Yharnamresident
03-07-2020, 04:37 AM
- Dreamcast first console sixth gen, and who enters first is more likely to fail, mathematically what I am saying is wrong, the numbers say leaving first is an advantage, but in the real world empirically historically, 6 consoles came out first and from those 6 Only 2 achieved relative success 4 are absolute flop, but none of them beat the generation that disputed.SegaAMD I finally gotta let you know, I constantly get the vibe that you speak a Romance language as your first language.


You touch upon it on your 3rd paragraph but my main flaws with playing the Dreamcast in 2020 in offending order are; The lack of modern display output connections, the console noise is unbelievably loud and the fragility of DC discs.

However, with ReDream all those issues go away and it reminds you just how wonderful the Dreamcast is. Just Windows CE support to go then I can enjoy the entire DC back catalogue with no comprises like you would with the original hardware.

I know it's not widely championed in enthusiast communities but modern emulation is so good with ReDream, I urge you to give it a go. I was playing Resident Evil Code Veronica, Soul Calibur and Daytona USA 2001 over the weekend and playing the games on ReDream with no issues, with an Xbox One Controller, with widescreen hacks all in 2K resolution on my PC, reminds you just what a marvelous console the Dreamcast was and can look like in 2020.Well if it floats your boat then theres nothing wrong. But personally I care a lot about novelty. For example I've been playing a lot of ColecoVision on emulator, I got the whole ROMset in one folder. But I'm still planning to get a 40 year-old ColecoVision so I can play it on a CRT with a S-video mod.

So its the same with Dreamcast, I play it in my home theatre using original GD-ROMs with the loud laser and the VMU beeps.

Yharnamresident
03-07-2020, 05:00 AM
So as some of you know, 6 buttons were supported on 3rd-party Dreamcast controllers but Sega never made a 6 button controller themselves.

I decided to try a game that supports 6 buttons. It is a great sensational feeling to be using a controller that isn't so limited, all 6 buttons do work in-game:

https://i.imgur.com/WsKNh1Y.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RjBkklQ.jpg

Sonic Adventure also kinda supports it, Sonic will look at the camera if you press "Z":

https://s5.gifyu.com/images/apng3.png


So we have our proof right here. 6 buttons was a done deal and was already being done by 3rd parties. Sega just had to release their own controller with 6 buttons for it to become standard.



Now in terms of 2 analog sticks, some of you might know about that twin sticks controller for Virtual On 2. It turns out those are digital sticks, the right stick was mapped to the D-pad of a standard controller. So this is not a form of dual analog sticks on Dreamcast, it was never done even though the Dreamcast internally supports it.

https://i.imgur.com/efL9OMb.jpg