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Yharnamresident
11-01-2019, 10:12 AM
So we know the Dreamcast was the weakest console of the 6th gen, it was the only one released in the 90s. But what if there existed a weaker 6th gen console than the Dreamcast? What would it look like?

Some of you may be thinking of the 3DO M2, but that console couldn't even do 500,000 PPS, it was gonna be an N64 on steroids with CD storage.

Does there exist an arcade board that would be a good example of what I'm describing?

Team Andromeda
11-01-2019, 10:32 AM
So we know the Dreamcast was the weakest console of the 6th gen, it was the only one released in the 90s. But what if there existed a weaker 6th gen console than the Dreamcast? What would it look like?

Some of you may be thinking of the 3DO M2, but that console couldn't even do 500,000 PPS, it was gonna be an N64 on steroids with CD storage.

Does there exist an arcade board that would be a good example of what I'm describing?

I would have said it would have been the home version of the Neo Geo Hyper 64

SegaAMD
11-01-2019, 11:09 AM
Talking about a sixth generation console that is weaker than DC is controversial, first because the DC itself is questioned by some ignorant if it is really a sixth generation console. Secondly the processing power, storing, would not represent the generational leap.

SegaAMD
11-01-2019, 07:47 PM
At the time, apart from Dreamcast the strongest system was model 3, but its hardware isn't viable on a console, so I can only see as an alternative, a modified model 2 or that arcade that runs the game Mace the Dark Age, the arcade version is pretty higher than the N64 version, it is very close to Soul Calibur Arcade and Tekken Tag arcade.

Yharnamresident
11-01-2019, 10:19 PM
I would have said it would have been the home version of the Neo Geo Hyper 64I was looking at the specs for it, I'd say spot on.


Talking about a sixth generation console that is weaker than DC is controversial, first because the DC itself is questioned by some ignorant if it is really a sixth generation console. Secondly the processing power, storing, would not represent the generational leap.I've seen that before, thats one of the reasons I spend so much time in the PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics thread. The reality is the Dreamcast was released in the transition into 6th gen, so theres hundreds of games released for it that aren't taking advantage of it. It might be that only 40% of the Dreamcast games are technically considered 6th gen. The same thing happened with the PS2, albeit not as bad. It wasn't until the GameCube and OG Xbox where they were getting pure 6th gen games.


Also about the generation leap, let me show you the situation. Imagine if there was a console with these specs: 120 MHz processor, 16 MB RAM, 38 audio channels, 1 million PPS maximum with all effects, CD storage. This would've been a huge leap over the N64, a generational leap. But this console would've been only slightly closer to the OG Xbox than the N64. This is how generations work. A console is a generational leap over the previous console, but the most powerful console in that generation is almost a leap over it. Because technically the lowest polycounts considered 6th gen are around 700,000-900,000 PPS, so I don't feel the Dreamcast is the lowest a 6th gen console can be. I gotta find an arcade board that matches those specs.


Also it was great to see both you guys knew exactly what I meant. This is a topic that might never have been discussed in history.

Leynos
11-01-2019, 11:15 PM
First-year or 2 of every gen since about the 6th have been cross-generation games or last-gen ports the first year or 2. Bully came out on 60 two years after 360 launched. 360 had a lot of PS2 games ported to it it's first year and 360 launched a year before Wii and PS3.

SegaAMD
11-01-2019, 11:51 PM
Also about the generation leap, let me show you the situation. Imagine if there was a console with these specs: 120 MHz processor, 16 MB RAM, 38 audio channels, 1 million PPS maximum with all effects, CD storage. This would've been a huge leap over the N64, a generational leap. But this console would've been only slightly closer to the OG Xbox than the N64. This is how generations work. A console is a generational leap over the previous console, but the most powerful console in that generation is almost a leap over it. Because technically the lowest polycounts considered 6th gen are around 700,000-900,000 PPS, so I don't feel the Dreamcast is the lowest a 6th gen console can be. I gotta find an arcade board that matches those specs.


Also it was great to see both you guys knew exactly what I meant. This is a topic that might never have been discussed in history.

I confess that defining a generation before was easier, but nowadays it has become more complex, it is difficult to classify a console like the one you imagined, whether it would be an evolved fifth generation or a reduced sixth generation.

I believe that to have a clearer answer we need to go beyond the numbers, but to the practical result for the visual generated.
for example 1M of theoretical polygons.

As this is a retro subject, we already know what kind of 1M polygons visuals can generate, M2 games, VF3 TB, Mortal Kombat 4, let's take this point, these games would be for this hypothetical console the maximum visual, arcade MK4 (1M pps) not it's as beautiful as Dreamcast's MK Gold and VF3 TB runs on Model 3 which is stronger than this hypothetical console so the port would be even worse than Dreamcast's it would look better than Nintendo 64's Mace the Dark Age, but it would be closer to MTDA than SC1 DC or TTT PS2, I'm sure, but while VF3 on Dreamcast, that's a transitional look, for this hypothetical console it would be the limit. so, I don't think it could handle sixth generation multplat games or if we can call its exclusive games of sixth generation games.

so, we can call it a generational leap, when a game that can't be ported on the previous generation consoles, even downgraded.

stu
11-02-2019, 12:31 AM
Some of you may be thinking of the 3DO M2, but that console couldn't even do 500,000 PPS, it was gonna be an N64 on steroids with CD storage.




Well I'm glad you finally agree that the M2 is nothing more than a turbo charged N64. I seem to recall when I said back in the Dreamcast VS PS2 thread that I considered the OG Xbox to be the M2 of the 6th generation (eg close to 7th gen in places, like the M2 would of been an early 6th gen system - even though it wasn't much more powerful than the N64) you shot back that the XBOX "was only 15% better than the Gamecube". I LOLed.

axel
11-02-2019, 04:46 AM
Does the N64DD count? You get 8MB of RAM, 64MB storage capacity, Internet connectivity... it's sort of 6th gen in the same way the 32X was a next-gen system.

If it has to be arcade based then maybe one of the Atari boards like the Flagstaff or Seattle, or the Midway Atlantis, or the Namco Super System 23.

Yharnamresident
11-02-2019, 07:48 AM
On a similar subject, heres what would be considered an early 7th gen console. This system had a Intel Celeron, 512 MB RAM etc:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65qs3lUhsc

Yharnamresident
11-02-2019, 08:10 AM
Well I'm glad you finally agree that the M2 is nothing more than a turbo charged N64. I seem to recall when I said back in the Dreamcast VS PS2 thread that I considered the OG Xbox to be the M2 of the 6th generation (eg close to 7th gen in places, like the M2 would of been an early 6th gen system - even though it wasn't much more powerful than the N64) you shot back that the XBOX "was only 15% better than the Gamecube". I LOLed.

Well it is game industry convention that the 3DO M2 was gonna be a 6th gen console, it even says on Wikipedia. You can't blame me. But after doing some spec research, it was gonna be an N64 on steroids. So we gotta set the notion right, it was more gonna be the OG Xbox of the 5th gen.

Yharnamresident
11-02-2019, 10:06 AM
First-year or 2 of every gen since about the 6th have been cross-generation games or last-gen ports the first year or 2. Bully came out on 60 two years after 360 launched. 360 had a lot of PS2 games ported to it it's first year and 360 launched a year before Wii and PS3.Yes great point, both the Dreamcast and 360 experienced the same phenomenon, 60-80% of the games being released for the systems were initially designed for previous generation hardware.



As this is a retro subject, we already know what kind of 1M polygons visuals can generate, M2 games, VF3 TB, Mortal Kombat 4, let's take this point, these games would be for this hypothetical console the maximum visual, arcade MK4 (1M pps) not it's as beautiful as Dreamcast's MK Gold and VF3 TB runs on Model 3 which is stronger than this hypothetical console so the port would be even worse than Dreamcast's it would look better than Nintendo 64's Mace the Dark Age, but it would be closer to MTDA than SC1 DC or TTT PS2, I'm sure, but while VF3 on Dreamcast, that's a transitional look, for this hypothetical console it would be the limit. so, I don't think it could handle sixth generation multplat games or if we can call its exclusive games of sixth generation games.First off, Virtua Fighter 3TB is 1.2-1.3 million PPS.

The example we should be using is Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2. The game is a pure 1 million PPS 6th gen multiplat. Does it look like a 6th gen game? Yes, but its quite far from using the Dreamcast's full capabilities(you only gotta take one look at Dead or Alive 2). So this shows there could be a weaker 6th gen console than the Dreamcast, where Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 would be using 80% of its power. We just gotta find the right arcade board to demonstrate this.



Does the N64DD count? You get 8MB of RAM, 64MB storage capacity, Internet connectivity... it's sort of 6th gen in the same way the 32X was a next-gen system.Not enough RAM, the N64 is pure mid-90s hardware.



If it has to be arcade based then maybe one of the Atari boards like the Flagstaff or Seattle, or the Midway Atlantis, or the Namco Super System 23.Absolutely brilliant, the Atari Seattle has essentially the same specs of what I described before: "120 MHz processor, 16 MB RAM, 38 audio channels, 1 million PPS maximum with all effects, CD storage".

Aside from the lighting and general lack of special effects, I feel these games look like very early 6th gen games:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDToEwoMtPs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b099Mibtm4Q


Heres the Atari Vegas board, graphically this game appears to be 99% accurate of what I was trying to describe in this thread. It look moderately below Dreamcast graphics yet still 6th gen:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L22wmaQwcY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ortbClRm0nc

SegaAMD
11-02-2019, 11:10 AM
First off, Virtua Fighter 3TB is 1.2-1.3 million PPS.

The example we should be using is Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2. The game is a pure 1 million PPS 6th gen multiplat. Does it look like a 6th gen game? Yes, but its quite far from using the Dreamcast's full capabilities(you only gotta take one look at Dead or Alive 2). So this shows there could be a weaker 6th gen console than the Dreamcast, where Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 would be using 80% of its power. We just gotta find the right arcade board to demonstrate this.



I disagree, and I think our point of disagreement is in the details, when I think of sixth generation multiplatform, I think games like ssx, baldurs gate, ty tasmanian, soul calibur 2, f1 2001, 007 games, MK: Deadly alliance, spiderman, These games can't run on N64 (even with dvd rom drive on it) but R2R: BR2 can. Therefore, his hypothetical console couldn't be called the sixth generation cause all its games can to be ported to N64, just downgraded. In contrast, almost no PS2 games can be played on it (N64). Unfortunately even Dreamcast itself can't handle some PS2 games or later multplats .

Yharnamresident
11-02-2019, 11:13 PM
I disagree, and I think our point of disagreement is in the details, when I think of sixth generation multiplatform, I think games like ssx, baldurs gate, ty tasmanian, soul calibur 2, f1 2001, 007 games, MK: Deadly alliance, spiderman, These games can't run on N64 (even with dvd rom drive on it) but R2R: BR2 can. Therefore, his hypothetical console couldn't be called the sixth generation cause all its games can to be ported to N64, just downgraded. In contrast, almost no PS2 games can be played on it (N64). Unfortunately even Dreamcast itself can't handle some PS2 games or later multplats .

Really bizarre logic. You do recognize the N64 version of Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 is likely running at 1/14th the polycounts of the Dreamcast and PS2 versions right?

Yharnamresident
11-02-2019, 11:21 PM
If it has to be arcade based then maybe one of the Atari boards like the Flagstaff or Seattle, or the Midway Atlantis, or the Namco Super System 23.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namco_System_23


Main CPU: 133 MHz IDT R4650 64-bit. Super System 23 used a 166 MHz chip and Super System 23 Evolution 2 used a 200 MHz chip
Sound CPU: 16.9344 MHz Hitachi H8/3002
Sound Chip: Namco C352 Sample playback
I/O CPU: Gorgon and System 23 used Hitachi H8/3334 Super System 23 and Super System 23 Evolution 2 used PIC16Cxx
Extra I/O CPU: Hitachi SH-2 used only on Super System 23 GMEN
Graphics hardware: Namco-proprietary hardware
GPU: Multiple parallel VideoLogic PowerVR chips[1]
Graphical capabilities: 2 million polygons per second,[1] texture mapping, Gouraud shading

This is right on the nail

Leynos
11-03-2019, 12:13 AM
I disagree, and I think our point of disagreement is in the details, when I think of sixth generation multiplatform, I think games like ssx, baldurs gate, ty tasmanian, soul calibur 2, f1 2001, 007 games, MK: Deadly alliance, spiderman, These games can't run on N64 (even with dvd rom drive on it) but R2R: BR2 can. Therefore, his hypothetical console couldn't be called the sixth generation cause all its games can to be ported to N64, just downgraded. In contrast, almost no PS2 games can be played on it (N64). Unfortunately even Dreamcast itself can't handle some PS2 games or later multplats .

And DC ports on PS2 have lower texture resolution and in Ecco's case look washed out and dark. Grandia II is worse on PS2.

SegaAMD
11-03-2019, 12:39 AM
And DC ports on PS2 have lower texture resolution and in Ecco's case look washed out and dark. Grandia II is worse on PS2.

we can fill a boat with fish until it overflows, but when we take the fish and put it on the ship, it doesn't fill it.

Leynos
11-03-2019, 12:40 AM
Ok, how high are you?
Whatever the fuck you're saying. My point was your logic is so flawed it's easy to poke holes in it.

Team Andromeda
11-03-2019, 04:33 AM
I think people focus too much on the number of polygons. To be me its also about effects various filters and textures that also make sure a game looks good and that's what really left down the N64 and a lot of PS2 game with their low res games and poor texture's

Yharnamresident
11-03-2019, 12:14 PM
I think people focus too much on the number of polygons. To be me its also about effects various filters and textures that also make sure a game looks good and that's what really left down the N64 and a lot of PS2 game with their low res games and poor texture'sWell the reason people focus so much on polygons in this generation, is because it was before the law of diminishing returns started taking effect. Like you won't notice a difference with a PS4 game running at 700 million PPS or 900 million PPS(yes those are realistic PS4 numbers), but you will notice a difference between a Dreamcast game running at 700,000 PPS or 900,000 PPS.


Also something else should be mentioned. Theres always been wars between consoles, where they use a selling point to compete.

First it was the bit wars(late 3rd gen to early 6th gen, "the N64 is 64-bit")
then it was the polygon wars(early 6th gen to early 7th gen, "the PS2 can 75 million PPS")
and now finally its the resolution wars(early 7th to present, "the Xbone X can do native 4K while the PS4 Pro does checkerboard 4K")

Yharnamresident
11-03-2019, 12:19 PM
To help everyone become educated about the subject of recognizing generational hardware, heres an example of an arcade board with 5th gen hardware. While watching the video, you'll be thinking "this looks like a PS1 or Saturn game", yes that is the case even though this arcade board doesn't have similar hardware to any 5th gen console:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGBqkPg2R0g

SegaAMD
11-04-2019, 09:30 AM
Whatever the fuck you're saying. My point was your logic is so flawed it's easy to poke holes in it.

I meant that these games you mentioned, grandia 2 and ecco, as being inferior on ps2, just means developers haven't made proper use of ps2 power. i'll exemplify while they use 100% DC, they should be using some 20% of global processing capacity ps2.
yes, between storage, floating points and hardware overall I consider ps2 between 3 and 6/5x more powerful than Dreamcast, a huge difference.

Leynos
11-04-2019, 01:22 PM
Irrelevent as the point was your previous post was full of logic holes. It's easy to just say that kinda stuff.

Yharnamresident
11-04-2019, 06:19 PM
I meant that these games you mentioned, grandia 2 and ecco, as being inferior on ps2, just means developers haven't made proper use of ps2 power. i'll exemplify while they use 100% DC, they should be using some 20% of global processing capacity ps2.
yes, between storage, floating points and hardware overall I consider ps2 between 3 and 6/5x more powerful than Dreamcast, a huge difference.

Way too much of an exaggeration. I get you're the resident PS2 elitist since Barone isn't active right now, but you gotta keep in mind that most of us have seen what the PS2 is capable of. Its a huge leap over the Dreamcast, but its not a quantum leap like Sony wanted you to believe in 1999-2000. Also some specs of the PS2 are the worst of any 6th gen console.

And no one should care about the graphics in Grandia II, the game runs at 300,000 PPS.

Leynos
11-04-2019, 06:42 PM
Yes, but it was the second time a Grandia game ported from a SEGA system to a Sony system had much worse visuals. Esp in backgrounds/environments and textures. They also removed a lot of in-game rendered cutscenes and made them pre-rendered. There is a 2 year gap between DC and PS2 version so it's not like it was rushed in a couple months. It's not the PPS. It's everything else.

Yharnamresident
11-04-2019, 07:20 PM
Well Segata what do you think of this topic? How would you imagine a 6th gen console thats weaker than the Dreamcast? One that would come out in late 1997/early 1998

Yharnamresident
11-04-2019, 07:35 PM
Also I will defend the PS2 by saying I don't feel the developers gave a shit about the game when they were porting it. The game only used 20% of the Dreamcast power, so theres no technical reasons why the PS2 port ended up inferior. They likely knew the game couldn't compete in the PS2 RPG market so they just half-assed the port.

SegaAMD
11-04-2019, 09:08 PM
Way too much of an exaggeration. I get you're the resident PS2 elitist since Barone isn't active right now, but you gotta keep in mind that most of us have seen what the PS2 is capable of. Also some specs of the PS2 are the worst of any 6th gen console.




in fact, someone needs to keep the balance in the force :)

I'm a fan of SEGA and especially a fan of the Dreamcast and Saturn consoles, so much so that I'm since May 2019 trying to communicate with someone from Sega, but this is the subject of another topic.

I don't know to what extent the statement is an exaggeration, between 3 and 6x more powerful.

many dreamcast games when ported to ps2 twice the frame rate and still have the power to improve other graphics there is a lot of evidence that points to something

Hardware level:

disk size GD 1.2GB versus DVD 4.7GB (4x) HDD 40GB versus VMS 1MB (standard VMU 128KB)
Gflops (responsible for 3d ) 1.4 vs 5.5 (4x) this part is controversial because some insist that GS doesn't make flops 6,2 cpu + 5,5 GS
Fill Rate: 0.5GB vs 2.4GB (5x) Bus cpu-gpu 800MB/s vs 3.2GB/s (4x) Main RAM: DC 16MB /PS2 32MB (2x) Vram: PS2- 4MB/DC- 8MB (twice ? No, they don't work the same way)

Gaming Level:

Dreamcast Maximum polygons count measured in action games:
floigam bros visual Concepts (nice devs) july 2001 wikipedia: During development Bernie Stolar, the president of SEGA said that "Floigan Bros, will do for SEGA what Mario did for Nintendo" 2,4M PPS.

Playstation 2 Maximum polygons count measured in action games:
Jak and Daxter December 2001 Naughty Dog, 9M PPS (4x) with grass and 4,000 polygons main character, DC doesn't make grass, Dreamcast's cpu can't handle main characters over 3,000 polygons in action games.

Leynos
11-04-2019, 09:59 PM
Well Segata what do you think of this topic? How would you imagine a 6th gen console that's weaker than the Dreamcast? One that would come out in late 1997/early 1998

Nuon? Tho it's 2000 but I remember seeing it in magazines in the late 90s and I think the final specs were kinda down there. Don't remember what they were but I don't remember them being all that great except maybe more ram than DC. Hard to say as I am not even sure anyone released for it tested it. I think I remember hearing it had a good version of tempest. Some future game Freefall and Iron something 3. It's been fucking forever since I looked at anything Nuon but I recall it being lower spec than DC but better than PS1.

Yharnamresident
11-04-2019, 10:29 PM
Yea yea cherry-picked console specs, no mention of Dreamcast strengths, urban myth PS2 polycounts, post filled with bias to the brim. Maybe TA or Segata will give you a good debate because I'm going back to the main topic.

SegaAMD
11-04-2019, 11:25 PM
I believe my post is within the theme, it all started when I proposed that an intermediate between DC-N64 would be a fifth generation console, because it would be possible to convert to N64 with downgrade, since Dreamcast has a lot of power, and there is no how to convert a game from DC to n64. shenmue, crazy taxi, doa2.

Then I said that the sixth generation multiplatforms reached very high levels, that even Dreamcast itself would have difficulty handling. what would leave the intermediate console without the game. when I say sixth gen multplat I mean the games that came out for xbox-PS2 and GC like F1 2001, ty, Dead to Rights, Hitaman 2, Blood omen 2, baldurs gate, 007 nightfire, games like capcom vs snk2/EO, i'm not considering, just Gamecube and xbox shared games.

So the user cited Grandia 2, which made me bring the memory of Sega-16 that PS2 is a very powerful console and the numbers I posted show that.

but I suspect you are imagining a DC-N64 intermediate console in terms of PPS but with effects similar to GC and Xbox. few polygons but with a good AA, with shader, blur, bloom, and such features wouldn't make it intermediate console but a very powerful hardware, not possible too.

axel
11-04-2019, 11:41 PM
Nuon had crap games but the specs are not worse than the DC, 32 MB RAM, a DVD drive, support for a hard drive and a quad core CPU.

Come to think of it, with the Atari connection, the Nuon is perhaps the closest we ever saw to a Jaguar 2.

Leynos
11-05-2019, 12:31 AM
https://i.imgur.com/lulesPU.jpg

https://media.giphy.com/media/fvefwxoAZ4XJhiSrr5/giphy.gif

Team Andromeda
11-05-2019, 03:42 AM
Well the reason people focus so much on polygons in this generation, is because it was before the law of diminishing returns started taking effect. Like you won't notice a difference with a PS4 game running at 700 million PPS or 900 million PPS(yes those are realistic PS4 numbers), but you will notice a difference between a Dreamcast game running at 700,000 PPS or 900,000 PPS.

No, I also mean if one just look at only Dreamcast games. There are some DC games that are pushing a ton of polygons and yet look less impressive than those pushing over half the number. Look at trigger heart it's pushing some of the biggest amounts of polygons on the DC and to me it doesn't look half as good as other DC shooter pushing far less. To me, Code Veronica is one of the best looking games on the DC, yet there are games pushing far more polygons

Yharnamresident
11-05-2019, 03:42 PM
https://i.imgur.com/lulesPU.jpghttps://media.giphy.com/media/fvefwxoAZ4XJhiSrr5/giphy.gifI really appreciate this. I finally gotta accept that the guy can't have unbiased debates. He posts a lot of other useful stuff, but when it comes to debating consoles he just can't take an unbiased approach.

Like I grew up with only a PS2 and think it fully deserved to win that generation, but in terms of hardware I think its absolutely overrated. The hardware is what you'd expect from a console released in early 2000, meaning its a lot more powerful than the Dreamcast which came out in late 1998, but also a lot less powerful than the Gamecube and OG Xbox which came out in late 2001.

Yharnamresident
11-05-2019, 04:01 PM
No, I also mean if one just look at only Dreamcast games. There are some DC games that are pushing a ton of polygons and yet look less impressive than those pushing over half the number. Look at trigger heart it's pushing some of the biggest amounts of polygons on the DC and to me it doesn't look half as good as other DC shooter pushing far less. To me, Code Veronica is one of the best looking games on the DC, yet there are games pushing far more polygons

But which shoot-em-ups are you thinking of? I can tell you the polycounts of them and they won't be much less than Triggerheart.

Like you aren't gonna think Trizeal is the best looking shoot-em-up, and theres a reason for that(game runs at 500,000 PPS). Polycounts matter. Yes there can be some variation like you described, but a game running at 500,000 PPS usually isn't gonna look better than a game running at 2 million PPS.

zyrobs
11-05-2019, 04:30 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/fvefwxoAZ4XJhiSrr5/giphy.gif
Hahaha what, is that a mockup or an actual game?


But which shoot-em-ups are you thinking of? I can tell you the polycounts of them and they won't be much less than Triggerheart.

Like you aren't gonna think Trizeal is the best looking shoot-em-up, and theres a reason for that(game runs at 500,000 PPS). Polycounts matter. Yes there can be some variation like you described, but a game running at 500,000 PPS usually isn't gonna look better than a game running at 2 million PPS.

iirc Under Defeat would be a good candidate since it has a ludicrous amount of particles; when it came out, the local gaming mags said that it looks better than Gradius V (which was the most epic shmup at that time both in graphics and length, it also ran in 480p if I remember right).

Leynos
11-05-2019, 04:45 PM
Nope. It's a real game on 3DS. Project X Zone 2. Developed by Nintendo's Monolith soft. It has Namco/SEGA/Capcom characters in an SRPG. Only 2 in the series but a spiritual successor to Namco X Capcom.

Leynos
11-05-2019, 04:48 PM
I really appreciate this. I finally gotta accept that the guy can't have unbiased debates. He posts a lot of other useful stuff, but when it comes to debating consoles he just can't take an unbiased approach.

Like I grew up with only a PS2 and think it fully deserved to win that generation, but in terms of hardware I think its absolutely overrated. The hardware is what you'd expect from a console released in early 2000, meaning its a lot more powerful than the Dreamcast which came out in late 1998, but also a lot less powerful than the Gamecube and OG Xbox which came out in late 2001.

Outta reps but would if I could. Also not just a pure raw power thing. Every console had a weakness and strength. It was the last generation where each console was fully custom.

Yharnamresident
11-05-2019, 05:10 PM
Nuon? Tho it's 2000 but I remember seeing it in magazines in the late 90s and I think the final specs were kinda down there. Don't remember what they were but I don't remember them being all that great except maybe more ram than DC. Hard to say as I am not even sure anyone released for it tested it. I think I remember hearing it had a good version of tempest. Some future game Freefall and Iron something 3. It's been fucking forever since I looked at anything Nuon but I recall it being lower spec than DC but better than PS1.I was researching the system. The specs are just too different from traditional console hardware, its the same situation as the Model 3. The specs are like a high-end PC thats using integrated graphics. Also the console has less charisma than even the Jaguar.




I believe my post is within the theme, it all started when I proposed that an intermediate between DC-N64 would be a fifth generation console, because it would be possible to convert to N64 with downgrade, since Dreamcast has a lot of power, and there is no how to convert a game from DC to n64. shenmue, crazy taxi, doa2.Yes Shenmue, its true because of disc space. But you could get Crazy Taxi and Dead or Alive 2 on N64. They will look a lot different but I feel it could be possible.



Then I said that the sixth generation multiplatforms reached very high levels, that even Dreamcast itself would have difficulty handling. what would leave the intermediate console without the game. when I say sixth gen multplat I mean the games that came out for xbox-PS2 and GC like F1 2001, ty, Dead to Rights, Hitaman 2, Blood omen 2, baldurs gate, 007 nightfire, games like capcom vs snk2/EO, i'm not considering, just Gamecube and xbox shared games.

First off, I will say this console wouldn't be able to handle a straight port of Dead or Alive 2 which is a Dreamcast/PS2 multiplat.

But this console would only be relevant during the early 6th gen. It would be dead shortly after GameCube and OG Xbox were released. So think of 6th gen multiplats that came out in 1999-2002. Theres tons of multiplats during those years that wouldn't even be maxing out the Dreamcast. Those would be suitable for this console.

To put it into perspective, this console would be like the Jaguar. The Jaguar is a very early 5th gen console, but its still a 5th gen console no doubt.



but I suspect you are imagining a DC-N64 intermediate console in terms of PPS but with effects similar to GC and Xbox. few polygons but with a good AA, with shader, blur, bloom, and such features wouldn't make it intermediate console but a very powerful hardware, not possible too.No way. No one was using bloom and motion blur in the late 90s, so that stuff is off the charts for this console.

"I suspect you are imagining a DC-N64 intermediate console in terms of PPS" yes but much closer to the Dreamcast. Think 1 million PPS, maybe 2:1 texture compression, 500 MB bandwidth, 800 Mflops, 38 audio channels, CD storage, etc. specs like these are a bit below the Dreamcast but still a huge leap over the PS1/Saturn/N64.

SegaAMD I found an arcade board that will really put us on the same page in terms of thinking of this very early 6th gen console.

Yharnamresident
11-05-2019, 05:27 PM
iirc Under Defeat would be a good candidate since it has a ludicrous amount of particles; when it came out, the local gaming mags said that it looks better than Gradius V (which was the most epic shmup at that time both in graphics and length, it also ran in 480p if I remember right).Well this is embarrassing, Under Defeat is the one shoot-em-up I haven't spent much time with. I think it hovers around 1.6 million PPS.


Outta reps but would if I could. Also not just a pure raw power thing. Every console had a weakness and strength. It was the last generation where each console was fully custom.Yes I was planning to mention this soon, when comparing the Dreamcast to the PS2 you gotta keep in mind this is when consoles were still very different from each other. Its not like the PS3 and 360 where they both got essentially the same hardware but the PS3 has higher specs in a few isolated areas.

SegaAMD
11-05-2019, 10:07 PM
SegaAMD I found an arcade board that will really put us on the same page in terms of thinking of this very early 6th gen console.

Oh, that's good!

SegaAMD
11-05-2019, 10:20 PM
Playstation 2 shows no weakness against DC honestly i don't know, and only loses to Xbox in that generation
for more details see ps2 vs DC/PS2 vs GCN thread.

Leynos
11-06-2019, 12:29 AM
Starting to become convinced this is an act.

Team Andromeda
11-06-2019, 02:49 AM
But which shoot-em-ups are you thinking of? I can tell you the polycounts of them and they won't be much less than Triggerheart.


Honestly, I think Choas Field, Ikaruga look better. I don't think you're being fair at all with Trizeal that after all was the work of one member of staff trying his best to keep his company going. Like I said there are many games that push more polygons than the likes of Virtual Stiker or Code Veronica on the DC, but to me VS is most prob the best looking DC sports game and CV just overall the best looking DC game.

It's not just about out and out polygons, its also about the quality of the texture mapping, lighting and various effects. Hence why to me and still to this day I think Virtual ON II is still one of the best looking DC games

Leynos
11-06-2019, 03:09 AM
https://i.imgur.com/Ti2oMXX.jpg


I don't know either. I was bored last night.

Yharnamresident
11-06-2019, 02:33 PM
iirc Under Defeat would be a good candidate since it has a ludicrous amount of particles; when it came out, the local gaming mags said that it looks better than Gradius V (which was the most epic shmup at that time both in graphics and length, it also ran in 480p if I remember right).You are right. I tried the game in Demul, the particle effects gives me vibes of PS3/360 games.

Team Andromeda
11-07-2019, 12:40 PM
You are right. I tried the game in Demul, the particle effects gives me vibes of PS3/360 games.

You mean you haven't played G-Rev's Bordered Down or Under Defeat until now?. Both games looked amazing

Yharnamresident
11-07-2019, 07:39 PM
You mean you haven't played G-Rev's Bordered Down or Under Defeat until now?. Both games looked amazingI've played Border Down a lot, the game isn't doing anything impressive and eventually gets too hard, Under Defeat seems to a different situation

Leynos
11-07-2019, 11:29 PM
I still need to play UD. I should get that PS3 version before it becomes super-pricey. Why I grabbed Battle Garegga on PS4 even tho I never played until I got it on PS4. Glad I did. Man I have grabbed a lot of ports of old shooters physically and digitally on PS4 and Switch. I hope that can continue on PS5. Side note. I know it doesn't matter on more modern machines as the way to measure things has changed but I seriously would like to know what 360, PS3, Wii, PS4, XBO, and Switch can push in PPS. I know it's way way more (well not Wii but compared to GCN I am curious). I know you guys don't have the tools for modern systems. I'm just typing out loud.

Yharnamresident
11-08-2019, 03:04 PM
I still need to play UD. I should get that PS3 version before it becomes super-pricey. Why I grabbed Battle Garegga on PS4 even tho I never played until I got it on PS4. Glad I did. Man I have grabbed a lot of ports of old shooters physically and digitally on PS4 and Switch. I hope that can continue on PS5. Side note. I know it doesn't matter on more modern machines as the way to measure things has changed but I seriously would like to know what 360, PS3, Wii, PS4, XBO, and Switch can push in PPS. I know it's way way more (well not Wii but compared to GCN I am curious). I know you guys don't have the tools for modern systems. I'm just typing out loud.

Yes you are right, nowadays its all about resolutions. This started to be the selling point in the mid-7th gen. This will continue to be the case for 9th gen consoles. We can already hear "PS5 will do native 4K 60 FPS, 6K upscaled to 8K" etc.


But yes I can give you a brief idea.

PS3, 360 = 60 million - 100 million PPS. Its been mentioned before that Project Gotham Racing 3 ran at 1 million polygons at 60 FPS, this means 60 million PPS.

PS4, Xbone = 500 million - 1 billion PPS. This is a pure estimate since this is what graphics cards were doing around when these consoles were released, but it seems about right. Because by the time these consoles were released, the days of PPS ratings were long gone.

I got no idea what the Wii is doing, but I think you can still use tools to see what the numbers are. Though won't be very interesting as the Wii isn't even as powerful as the OG Xbox.

Leynos
11-08-2019, 03:37 PM
Doesn't Wii have a faster GPU than Xbox and more ram? Tho I wonder how Enclave and House of the Dead 3 run on Wii compared to Xbox. Maybe more Xbox ports but those are the first that come to mind. I have heard it debated for years which of the two is more powerful.

SegaAMD
11-09-2019, 12:43 AM
all xbox and wii ports and similar games on both, are better on xbox OG by a considerable margin

Leynos
11-09-2019, 01:33 AM
I found this but it's not hard evidence but again shows this has been debated. No one has never shown a definitive answer. Tho going by AMD's posts he'd find some way to prove Master System was more powerful than SNES.

This quote is a 12 year old post on Gamespot https://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/wii-vs-original-xbox-capabilities-26612466/

Well, the verdict is that the Wii has more processing speed than the original Xbox and can allocate more memory with its 24 Mib internal programmable memory whereas the original Xbox had only 64 Mib memory to play around with. The problem with the Xbox's Power P.C setup was the fact that even though it clocked at higher speeds than the G.C. it was far less efficient to work round with, it would take a considerable amount of time and resources to actually understand the working architecture, so a game as fluid and beautiful as Ninja gaiden took a long time in the development room.

A Wii is technically 1.75 faster than a GameCube. making it easier for developers to understand what they have to work with, this debate applies to the current generation as well even though the PS3 has a really powerful Cell processor but the way the developers are able to milk this power depends on time, F.E.A.R is a ****c tale of this epic power struggle. it looks like a horrendous port of the original P.C. and the 360 versions, even Resistance has been tagged as Ps2.5 game rather than being a full fledged PS3 game, second generation PS3 titles like MGS4 and Killzone 2 will perhaps show off the true power of the PS3.

In a nutshell the X-box may pull off a Twilight princess (hypothetically speaking... no need to butcher me on this) but it will take a longer time to develop, more time equals more money and less profits.

Coming onto the GPU, there is not much known about the Wii's GPU capabilities but the developers on the condition of anonymity have this to rant about the star spangled "Hollywood" chip

Developer 1 had this to say:

"The Wii's GPU has fixed functions for vertex, lighting, and pixel operations, all 'programmable shaders' means is that the code you write for the shader gets run on the vertex and pixel hardware of the GPU. This is how it works on the high-end ATI and Nvidia GPU parts. The Wii is an older fixed function design where you have lots of operations but the pipelines are not programmable in the sense of downloading shader code to run. Almost all the shader effects on PC, Xbox 360 and PS3 can be reproduced on the Wii by re-implementing them with the fixed function hardware of the Wii's GPU. Most games just port the effect over. A few teams have gone as far as making a shader-to-Wii conversion tool. It reads the shader code and generates the fixed function code necessary to achieve the same result. Keep in mind that the Wii's GPU is not as fast or feature rich as the Xbox 360 or PS3, but that doesn't mean you can't get very close results."

Developer 2 said:

"The fixed-function design to that of the Gamecube is basically pretty similar to Nvidia's seven-year-old GeForce2.There are three main differences which will result in graphics improvements. One, the increased memory clock speed, from 162 megahertz to 243 megahertz, means that it is easier to do enough pixels for 480p mode versus 480i. Two, the enhanced memory size of the Wii gives much more room for image-related operations such as anti-aliasing, motion blur, etc. Three the performance to these memory systems from the graphics chip is also improved. So full-screen effects and increased texture usage seem likely as a result..."

Prior to Red Steel's release their Lead Team member admitted to the fact that the Wii was more powerful but the Xbox could pull off certain things that it can make which is difficult to make on the Wii.

So the lowdown on the graphical front was that the even though the Wii can pull off certain games with striking detail as the Xbox but certain real high end games like Doom 3, Half life 2, Ninja gaiden might not be able to make an effective transition due to the lack of the shaders and the lack of 720p. Its easier to find faults in the realm of High Definition (Halo 3 is a perfect example, the whole world is up in arms with the whole jaggies bit from the Beta version) so a developer may have to spend a lot of time on the board to make every tiny detail as clear to the gamer who'll go grumbling if he sees the slightest signs of Polygon tear.


Like I don't see Xenoblade running on Xbox with how massive it is. The Last Story and Mario Galaxy 1+2 pushed the system pretty far. TLS had great water reflections and effects. Not to mention physics in that game are pretty good. Metroid Prime 3 (not the Trilogy version and graphical effects were toned down/removed to fit on disc) is a stellar looking game on the system. Sonic Colors when you put that in a HD emulator. It genuinely looks like a 1st or 2nd gen 360 game. It's pretty incredible. Look at a game like Fast Racing League on Wii and even with a 40MB limit that game is insane. Same with Jett Rocket. You can go back and forth on games like Fragile Dreams or Conduit. Actually Conduit does have some nice lighting effects but since Gamecube Nintendo has always made it strength to make their systems good at lighting effects. Nintendo oddly really cares about it. Anyway, Conduit also has some nice shading and textures but also some very basic ones and level geometry.



I look at a game like Ninja Gaiden and Fable, Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Chronicles of Riddick and they would look very different on Wii. Halo 2 was a real showcase on Xbox. While I mentioned lighting on Nintendo systems. Splinter Cell on OG Xbox was insanely impressive.

They just seem pretty even to me but like all hardware from 6th gen tech (Wii is a 7th gen system with 6th gen tech IMO), they have strengths and weaknesses.

SegaAMD
11-10-2019, 08:20 PM
xbox to eclipse the nintendo wii in graphics don't even have to use the exclusive games just use a few ports that came from the ps2 like black, particularly i think it's prettier than the conduit 2

xbox is 20 Gigaflops
wii 12 Gigaflops
Xbox 1,6x more powerfull

Yharnamresident
11-10-2019, 09:02 PM
Doesn't Wii have a faster GPU than Xbox and more ram? Tho I wonder how Enclave and House of the Dead 3 run on Wii compared to Xbox. Maybe more Xbox ports but those are the first that come to mind. I have heard it debated for years which of the two is more powerful.Yes theres been a lot of debate, this wouldn't be the case if the consoles didn't have similar power.


I found this but it's not hard evidence but again shows this has been debated. No one has never shown a definitive answer. Tho going by AMD's posts he'd find some way to prove Master System was more powerful than SNES.

This quote is a 12 year old post on Gamespot https://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/wii-vs-original-xbox-capabilities-26612466/
That guy says the Xbox has a PowerPC CPU so he loses a bit of credibility, its x86 like PS4 and Xbone.


Look at it this way. What advantages does the Wii have over the GameCube? more RAM and higher clock speeds. I don't feel thats enough to set it ahead of OG Xbox. No Dolby Digital capabilities or HD resolutions, per-pixel-lighting, all these fancy features of the OG Xbox.

Leynos
11-10-2019, 09:15 PM
xbox to eclipse the nintendo wii in graphics don't even have to use the exclusive games just use a few ports that came from the ps2 like black, particularly i think it's prettier than the conduit 2

xbox is 20 Gigaflops
wii 12 Gigaflops
Xbox 1,6x more powerfull

AMD/Ati flops to Nvidia flops are different.

SegaAMD
11-10-2019, 09:35 PM
AMD/Ati flops to Nvidia flops are different.

this only makes the situation worse I'd say since traditionally the vga Nvidia generate more power with less Flops, xbox = nvidia.

Leynos
11-10-2019, 10:01 PM
Flops are a fanboy measurement because they use it as an end all.

Yharnamresident
11-10-2019, 10:20 PM
Flops are a fanboy measurement because they use it as an end all.Its a factor of a system's power but its not an end all. Like a lot of people say the reason the PS3 is more powerful than the 360 is because it can do 3x the flops, but theres also other factors like the XDR RAM in the PS3 is much faster than 360 DDR3, and the PS3 can do higher surround formats like 7.1 and Dolby TrueHD.

Oh yes I love the sensation of fanboy tech war discussion.

gamevet
11-10-2019, 10:41 PM
I don’t think that the 360 used DDR3. Sony started replacing XDR RAM with DDR3 in the later models.

*Edit*

*360 had 512MB of unified GDDR3 RAM @700 MHz. It’s pretty much DDR2 speed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360

Leynos
11-10-2019, 11:36 PM
Am I remembering this wrong but 360 was better about handling more open environments? I don't mean programming the hardware itself. Like it was easier to have a larger open-world game on 360 than PS3. Not saying because of power necessarily but how it was structured.

Don't forget 360 had the 10MB Embedded ram.

gamevet
11-10-2019, 11:43 PM
It was about memory management. Oblivion was optimized for PS3 and had a longer draw distance. Once developers started making the PS3 the lead platform, the PS3 started getting most of the better versions of games.

Yharnamresident
11-10-2019, 11:48 PM
Heres some posts I've been planning to reply to for awhile


Oh, that's good!Yes, stay tuned


Starting to become convinced this is an act.Hes bringing back the "PS2 is more powerful than GameCube" mindset. No point in debating as we won't be able to convince him anything.


Honestly, I think Choas Field, Ikaruga look better. I don't think you're being fair at all with Trizeal that after all was the work of one member of staff trying his best to keep his company going. Like I said there are many games that push more polygons than the likes of Virtual Stiker or Code Veronica on the DC, but to me VS is most prob the best looking DC sports game and CV just overall the best looking DC game.

It's not just about out and out polygons, its also about the quality of the texture mapping, lighting and various effects. Hence why to me and still to this day I think Virtual ON II is still one of the best looking DC gamesNone of those games you mentioned are slouches in polycounts. Code Veronica has higher polycounts than GTA III, which you would think the games wouldn't even be able to compare as GTA III was an insanely huge blockbuster game.

TA you probably think the second stage in Ikaruga looks good with all the buildings right? That stage runs at a constant 1.8-2.1 million PPS.


Heres the reality. A game running at 1 million PPS could end up looking better than a game running at 2.5 million PPS, but a game running at 500,000 PPS will usually never look better than a game running at 2.5 million PPS.

Yharnamresident
11-10-2019, 11:57 PM
I don’t think that the 360 used DDR3. Sony started replacing XDR RAM with DDR3 in the later models.I can't find anything about that, Wikipedia does mention the latest PS3s started using 128MBx2 XDR RAM instead of 64MBx4 XDR RAM.


Am I remembering this wrong but 360 was better about handling more open environments? I don't mean programming the hardware itself. Like it was easier to have a larger open-world game on 360 than PS3. Not saying because of power necessarily but how it was structured.

Don't forget 360 had the 10MB Embedded ram.It likely purely revolves around the unified RAM which every console uses now.

gamevet
11-11-2019, 12:42 AM
I can't find anything about that, Wikipedia does mention the latest PS3s started using 128MBx2 XDR RAM instead of 64MBx4 XDR RAM.

I don't recall where I'd heard that, but this snippet shows that 1066 Mhz DDR3 has the same bandwidth as the XDR used in the PS3.

https://books.google.com/books?id=uQn1nnVoSzMC&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=Sony+PS3+XDR+to+DDR3&source=bl&ots=DWyi8q70Mv&sig=ACfU3U0k2b6ww9SmJriywSyrL_YnbxpAVw&hl=en&ppis=_e&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjskbmyq-HlAhUDr1kKHfrgAsc4ChDoATAJegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Sony%20PS3%20XDR%20to%20DDR3&f=false

SegaAMD
11-11-2019, 08:27 AM
Hes bringing back the "PS2 is more powerful than GameCube" mindset. No point in debating as we won't be able to convince him anything.



behind my previous post where I said '' you don't even need xbox exclusives to beat wii, just ports like Black '' there is a subliminal message.


Code Veronica has higher polycounts than GTA III, which you would think the games wouldn't even be able to compare as GTA III was an insanely huge blockbuster game.


we measure polygonal count per frame and frame rate to polygons per second, but there is another measurement, total polygons used in the construction of the stages, which we can´t measure, if we take a Code Veronica stage as well as every count seen on the map of GTA III, GTA 3 will make countless more polygons, only of Somehow the game was designed to show that count per frame.

SegaAMD
11-11-2019, 08:54 AM
It was about memory management. Oblivion was optimized for PS3 and had a longer draw distance. Once developers started making the PS3 the lead platform, the PS3 started getting most of the better versions of games.

I understand that the performance difference, ps3 and xbox 360, was about GPU, the xbox 360 gpu is more powerful, no doubt, while the ps3 gpu needed to work in parallel with the CPU because the Cell had gpu capabilities , making it roughly an SLI, though anyone should be able to do that, the price and time made it prohibitive, so only first party studios could deliver good results.

gamevet
11-11-2019, 11:25 AM
The Cell Processor could do vector calculations with its SPEs, nothing like SLI. Sony, at one point was going to use the Cell as a GPU, but later scrapped that idea. The graphics were rarely the issue though it had blocky shadows in some games. Most of the PS3’s issues were that only a single cord would be used, for 3rd party ports from 360.

I believe that we had a thread where a list of superior PS3 3rd party games posted. Final Fantasy XIII and Far Cry: New Vegas were on that list. It became more like 60/40 in the latter half of that generation, in favor of PS3, while early on it was like 70/30 in favor of 360.

Leynos
11-11-2019, 02:47 PM
360 CPU was using cell tech as well. There differences sure.

PS3 almost going with two cells was not because it was so powerful they didn't need one. It was because Ken Kutaragi was arrogant along with the rest of Sony who pretty felt they could do whatever they wanted and still be the market leader. He was nicknamed crazy Ken for a reason.

gamevet
11-12-2019, 02:11 AM
The Xenon processor in the Xbox 360 was a 3 core IBM PowerPC CPU. The Cell processor was a 2 thread PowerPC CPU, with 7 SPEs added to do vector calculations. The 360 GPU was more powerful than that of the PS3, but once you added in the power of the SPEs of the Cell, it could do more. The Cell is considered more powerful than the CPU in the PS4, and would be more powerful than the Xbox One, if MS didn't overclock it.

Team Andromeda
11-12-2019, 03:40 AM
None of those games you mentioned are slouches in polycounts. Code Veronica has higher polycounts than GTA III, which you would think the games wouldn't even be able to compare as GTA III was an insanely huge blockbuster game.

TA you probably think the second stage in Ikaruga looks good with all the buildings right? That stage runs at a constant 1.8-2.1 million PPS.


Heres the reality. A game running at 1 million PPS could end up looking better than a game running at 2.5 million PPS, but a game running at 500,000 PPS will usually never look better than a game running at 2.5 million PPS.

I don't think its fair to compare GTA 3 to Code Veronica myself: CV is a very linear game and even while the game is in 3D the console as complete control of the camera and the angles. GTA 3 is an open world game with a 3D camera.
What I liked about CV was how wonderful the characters looked and were modelled and the stunning texture mapping and so atmospheric backgrounds.

With Ikaruga, I liked the 1st stage with those lovely swirling backgrounds. It's not always about how many polygons are used.

Leynos
11-12-2019, 03:50 AM
Power is one thing. Efficiency is another. It's a CPU from 2005 really.
The cell was also a nightmare for developers. Even Sony hated the damn thing by the end of PS3's life since Ken was gone. X86 is much more developer-friendly.


IBM helped develop both Cell and the 360 CPU and 360 used some of the same tech.


Xenon in Xbox 360

The PPE was designed specifically for the Cell processor but during development, Microsoft approached IBM wanting a high performance processor core for its Xbox 360. IBM complied and made the tri-core Xenon processor, based on a slightly modified version of the PPE with added VMX128 extensions.[35][36]
Synergistic Processing Elements (SPE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)#Xenon_in_Xbox_360

gamevet
11-12-2019, 10:34 PM
Power is one thing. Efficiency is another. It's a CPU from 2005 really.
The cell was also a nightmare for developers. Even Sony hated the damn thing by the end of PS3's life since Ken was gone. X86 is much more developer-friendly.


IBM helped develop both Cell and the 360 CPU and 360 used some of the same tech.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)#Xenon_in_Xbox_360

Notice that they mentioned Power PC. Basically, IBM tweaked the Power PC CPUs, stacked the cores and came up with the Xenon and Cell.

Yharnamresident
03-07-2020, 05:21 AM
Ok, so I got the arcade boards that fit the topic of this thread, I just gotta be in the right posting mindset. Hopefully you guys will see a wall of text in a couple hours.

waterclaws6
03-07-2020, 06:07 AM
The Xenon and the Cell were some of the most inefficient console cpus despite their clockspeeds being really high. Only thing that saved them was developers getting great at using the multiple threads on the Xenon and Cell SPU's being useful for physics and graphics calculations, and also that generation lasting 10 yrs.

Yharnamresident
03-07-2020, 01:06 PM
The Xenon processor in the Xbox 360 was a 3 core IBM PowerPC CPU. The Cell processor was a 2 thread PowerPC CPU, with 7 SPEs added to do vector calculations. The 360 GPU was more powerful than that of the PS3, but once you added in the power of the SPEs of the Cell, it could do more. The Cell is considered more powerful than the CPU in the PS4, and would be more powerful than the Xbox One, if MS didn't overclock it.
Well IGN did a 360 vs PS3 comparison where they said the Cell is capable of 230 GFLOPS, which is a hell of a lot.

Though the PS3 really showed that theres no point in all that power, if developers can't figure out how to use it.


I don't think its fair to compare GTA 3 to Code Veronica myself: CV is a very linear game and even while the game is in 3D the console as complete control of the camera and the angles. GTA 3 is an open world game with a 3D camera.
What I liked about CV was how wonderful the characters looked and were modelled and the stunning texture mapping and so atmospheric backgrounds.I wasn't trying to imply anything, I was just saying that is the case. Code Veronica is indeed very linear.


The Xenon and the Cell were some of the most inefficient console cpus despite their clockspeeds being really high. Only thing that saved them was developers getting great at using the multiple threads on the Xenon and Cell SPU's being useful for physics and graphics calculations, and also that generation lasting 10 yrs.Nice work getting this thread to a new page.

So I will be bringing this thread back to the main topic.

Yharnamresident
03-07-2020, 03:24 PM
I present to you, the...


Taito Type-Zero


This was an arcade board released in 1998. It definitely doesn't have the power of Naomi or even a stock Dreamcast. There really isn't too much information about this board, but this is the best example of what we've been looking for in this thread. http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=673

The most popular game on the board by-far is Battle Gear 2. It was ported to PS2 where I inspected it and found it runs at 800,000 PPS.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLOLwZxoQUE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezPc_atOMqk

Heres someone playing it in an arcade. As you can see they really just dumped the game on the PS2 with no improvements:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwbH80ikLeg

Another game is Power Shovel Simulator.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn70HLeBJlY

And Stunt Typhoon(you can really see this board lacks the texture capabilities of Naomi/Dreamcast).

http://media.playright.dk/screen/026/406/76996-stunt-typhoon@800x600min.jpg

http://media.playright.dk/screen/026/406/76994-stunt-typhoon@800x600min.jpg

http://media.playright.dk/screen/026/406/76993-stunt-typhoon@800x600min.jpg

The first Battle Gear.

http://battlegear.net/archives/bg1/images/car.jpg

http://battlegear.net/archives/bg1/images/ghost.jpg

http://battlegear.net/archives/bg1/images/v2.jpg

http://battlegear.net/archives/bg1/images/v3.jpg

This Swedish guy owns a Taito Type-Zero and has made a ton of videos on it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBX4Pq7KfIY


It would've been amazing if Taito made a console version of this board. They could've battled the Dreamcast in 1998/1999. Taito had enough franchises to be a 1st-party developer.

Though sadly in terms of specs, all I can find out is it uses a Power PC603e. And there isn't really any good emulators for this board.

So what do you guys think, is this the weaker sibling of the Naomi/Dreamcast? Just watch some of those Battle Gear 2 videos and you'll see what I mean.

Yharnamresident
03-07-2020, 11:36 PM
I will also be posting the Atari Vegas. This board had a lot of Dreamcast/PS2 ports.

gamevet
03-08-2020, 12:07 AM
Well IGN did a 360 vs PS3 comparison where they said the Cell is capable of 230 GFLOPS, which is a hell of a lot.

Though the PS3 really showed that theres no point in all that power, if developers can't figure out how to use it.



I think that you'll find that games like Uncharted 3, The Last of Us and Wipeout HD benefiitted from using the Cell's SPEs as graphics co-processors to create images that weren't possible on the Xbox 360.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nG4YgtIYNA&feature=youtu.be

Leynos
03-08-2020, 12:32 AM
Naughty Dog is a more talented studio than anything MS had out of getting the most out of their hardware. PS3 most devs just had to brute force it. Sony and Nintendo are the best at getting the most out of their own hardware currently. MS makes good looking games but maxing it out the way the other 2 have never seemed as strong. TLOUII on PS4 is insane and Luigi's Mansion 3 should not be running on that tablet. Never really had that reaction personally with MS exclusives. Halo 4 looked great but next to TLOU it doesn't look nearly as special. I'm not a fan of their games but Ninja Theory might be that studio for MS now. Get the most out of the hardware.

turboxray
03-08-2020, 01:09 PM
I think that you'll find that games like Uncharted 3, The Last of Us and Wipeout HD benefiitted from using the Cell's SPEs as graphics co-processors to create images that weren't possible on the Xbox 360.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nG4YgtIYNA&feature=youtu.be
It's not all about the SPEs. Early on, Sony allowed devs to directly access to the hardware (bypassing APIs) for the PS3 to increase performance. Microsoft didn't allow direct hardware access for the Xbox and 360 consoles.

gamevet
03-08-2020, 03:58 PM
Yes, MS hampers the performance with their Direct X API, but the 360 does have a better GPU than the PS3. The GPU in the PS3 had a hard time with shadows, and it stuck out like a sore thumb in games like COD Modern Warfare. Sony, at one point, thought about using a second CELL processor for a GPU, because of it power to calculate vectors. 3 PS3s together can do amazing Ray Tracing, which is finally being realized with NVidia’s RTX cards and the upcoming consoles.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oLte5f34ya8


Naughty Dog is a more talented studio than anything MS had out of getting the most out of their hardware. PS3 most devs just had to brute force it. Sony and Nintendo are the best at getting the most out of their own hardware currently. MS makes good looking games but maxing it out the way the other 2 have never seemed as strong. TLOUII on PS4 is insane and Luigi's Mansion 3 should not be running on that tablet. Never really had that reaction personally with MS exclusives. Halo 4 looked great but next to TLOU it doesn't look nearly as special. I'm not a fan of their games but Ninja Theory might be that studio for MS now. Get the most out of the hardware.

What about Guerrilla games?

Killzone 2 took advantage of the Cell to create particle and lighting effects that were very impressive for their time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC-hiXr69kY&feature=youtu.be

turboxray
03-09-2020, 09:54 PM
Yes, MS hampers the performance with their Direct X API, but the 360 does have a better GPU than the PS3. The GPU in the PS3 had a hard time with shadows, and it stuck out like a sore thumb in games like COD Modern Warfare. Sony, at one point, thought about using a second CELL processor for a GPU, because of it power to calculate vectors. 3 PS3s together can do amazing Ray Tracing, which is finally being realized with NVidia’s RTX cards and the upcoming consoles.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oLte5f34ya8



What about Guerrilla games?

Killzone 2 took advantage of the Cell to create particle and lighting effects that were very impressive for their time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC-hiXr69kY&feature=youtu.be

Killzone had something where framerate and/or quality was different for single player vs multiplayer. I didn't have it, but remember my friend pointing it out (he loved that game)

gamevet
03-09-2020, 10:10 PM
I never played multiplayer on Killzone 2. I did play Resistance 2 online and it was awesome.

*Edit*

I guess I might have played a round or 2 of Killzone 2 online. I kind of remember having a saw blade gun that would jack people up....., or maybe that was Resistance.

j_factor
03-31-2020, 07:41 PM
Wasn't the Black Belt a little weaker? I don't recall seeing full details of the Black Belt GPU, but a lot of people thought the Black Belt GPU simply became the Voodoo Banshee. If not the same it certainly seems likely to be related. I know it was said to be based on the Voodoo2, but the Banshee is also based on the Voodoo2. How does the Banshee compare? I'm not quite sure how to gauge a PC graphics card against the GPU in a non-x86 game console. Although there were numerous PowerVR cards for PCs, I don't think any of them are identical or even very close to the Dreamcast's specific chip - and even if there was one, it probably benchmarks worse than its actual power due to different APIs etc.

zyrobs
04-01-2020, 12:10 AM
I don't know how they'd perform in comparison, but given the chip size and memory amount (ie. the same cost), the PVR2 can give much performance than any Voodoo due to being more memory efficient. The voodoo was always more about brute forcing performance, which it could afford due to being a premium dedicated card.

There's a reason one is dead while the other is now powering billions of devices.

j_factor
04-01-2020, 01:55 PM
I don't know how they'd perform in comparison, but given the chip size and memory amount (ie. the same cost), the PVR2 can give much performance than any Voodoo due to being more memory efficient. The voodoo was always more about brute forcing performance, which it could afford due to being a premium dedicated card.

There's a reason one is dead while the other is now powering billions of devices.

I'm pretty sure "the reason one [3dfx] is dead" was not yet a thing as of the time we're talking about. The death of 3dfx is usually blamed on their acquisition of a major manufacturing firm, making 3dfx the sole manufacturer of 3dfx graphics cards. That deal happened after the Black Belt had fallen through. And it would've been impossible (contractually) if the Black Belt was used.

zyrobs
04-01-2020, 03:34 PM
PowerVR made good decisions both in hardware and management, 3dfx made bad decisions in both. Instead of dicking around with the VSA chips, they should've pushed Rampage as soon as possible; it was a Geforce 4 equivalent card that they could've released in early 2000 against the Geforce 2.

And it wasn't just having an exclusive manufacturer, but also that they lacked a proper OEM card. Nvidia built up their money through OEM sales, they simply responded to market needs better - unlike 3dfx, or Sega for that matter.

stu
04-22-2020, 01:30 AM
I never played multiplayer on Killzone 2. I did play Resistance 2 online and it was awesome.

*Edit*

I guess I might have played a round or 2 of Killzone 2 online. I kind of remember having a saw blade gun that would jack people up....., or maybe that was Resistance.

I know for a fact that Resistance 2 has a saw blade gun, it was very useful in parts of the single player game, great for gutting tons of chimera..lol. I'm currantly playing through Killzone 2 and have not run in to that type of gun yet.