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Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-28-2020, 05:47 AM
So I'm a huge fan of Doom and used to play Doom and Final Doom on the Playstation non stop back in the day. I never played the infamous Saturn port, but have recently bought a copy on Ebay and I intend to find out for myself just how bad it actually is in the coming days. So my basic question to you guys is, what went wrong with the Saturn port of Doom? Why the horrifically bad frame rate? I heard that Saturn Doom was basically a straight port of the PS1 port, so why is it so inferior to the PS1 port? If the Saturn could handle the likes of Exhumed and Duke Nukem 3D, and make them look bloody good while doing it, how was it possible in 1997 to fuck up the port of a comparatively basic FPS from 1993?! :confused:

Raijin Z
02-28-2020, 06:29 AM
According to some of what I've read, Carmack kept interfering with the development, not allowing the port to be a partial remake tuned to the Saturn's strengths.

Team Andromeda
02-28-2020, 09:04 AM
As Jim told Retro gamer. He wasn't allowed to use the VDP1 to handle the graphics , just draw the screen. It's was a killer since the Saturn version that was using the VDP 1. Jim said looked

better and run at 60 fps .

And then a couple of years latter he said this


Yes, and no, we were given the PC and PlayStation data, but initially, I wanted to use the Saturn’s hardware to its max potential, and wrote a render engine to display the PC levels drawing the walls with the GPU, the problem I came across, was apparently John Carmack wasn’t happy about this, he wanted it to look exactly the same as the PC version, but it looked a lot nicer, and was running full screen at 60fps, he said it had to be drawn using the CPU, and not the GPU, he even suggested I used the two DSPs on the Saturn to render the screen, but as they only have 4KB, and if I remember correctly, as it’s been a very long time since I used one, 2KB code space and 2KB data space, doing it this way to render a complete screen full of game, would have been a huge memory bandwidth bottleneck, so I ignored that, and did it using the two SH2s to render the screen, each of the two CPUs splitting the draw time, doing a line each of the walls or floors, and to save time having to reduce the PC levels to fit into the Saturn’s memory, we decided to use the Playstation levels as they had a smaller memory footprint than the PC ones, so it made sense to convert the PlayStation levels, I was quite happy with the end result, as the SH2s ran at 33Mhz and 28Mhz respectively, and I remember playing doom on a 33Mhz PC and it having to play in a stamp sized display to play at a reasonable rate, where as the Saturn was pretty much full screen but this isn’t dissing John Carmack, he’s a very talented coder and clever bloke all round, it’s more me being proud of what speed I got out of two relatively slow cpus.

profholt82
02-28-2020, 09:21 AM
Digital Foundry did a breakdown of all the Doom ports a few years back. The Saturn section is a little after the 20 minute mark.


https://youtu.be/784MUbDoLjQ

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-28-2020, 12:07 PM
Thanks guys. So basically John Carmack, the genius behind the masterpiece that is Doom, is kinda to blame for the Saturn port running so poorly? Well that sucks... I'm sure he meant well.

gamevet
02-28-2020, 03:07 PM
Maybe if SEGA didn’t waste his time doing the 32x conversion, he could have done the Saturn one instead.

Team Andromeda
02-29-2020, 04:49 AM
If Sega didn't waste their time with the 32X itself, things would have been so much better in general

Mega Drive Bowlsey
02-29-2020, 05:25 AM
If Sega didn't waste their time with the 32X itself, things would have been so much better in general

This 100%. I've been saying it for donkey's years, if the 32X had never existed and Sega had simply moved from the Mega Drive straight to the Saturn, and properly supported developers, the Saturn would have had a much better library, more consistent quality ports, wouldn't have alienated consumers and retailers and overall would have stood a much better chance against the PS1. Oh well, heigh ho. T'was not to be.

zyrobs
02-29-2020, 08:42 AM
According to recent interviews, the problem with the Saturn was that they were losing so much money on making the console, that their solution was to sell less units - so I doubt that it would've done much better even with bigger software support.

Team Andromeda
02-29-2020, 09:08 AM
If SEGA had lots of third parties, lots of games sold, and get 2,000 yen for each, it was possible. However, if software sales are weak, and for each console sold you're losing 5,000 – 6,000 yen, then you're in trouble
Sadly, marketshare is what cost SEGA dear and after FF 7 in Japan, Saturn sales in Japan took a dive. It doesn't matter if you got big pockets either, its all about market share and software support as the Vita and Wii U shows

Not that's any excuse for Saturn Doom not being better than it was, and all thanks to id not wanting to use the custom chips, while happy to use Tom and Jerry on the Jaguar. I've always disliked hypocrisy

TrekkiesUnite118
02-29-2020, 12:46 PM
As Jim told Retro gamer. He wasn't allowed to use the VDP1 to handle the graphics , just draw the screen. It's was a killer since the Saturn version that was using the VDP 1. Jim said looked

better and run at 60 fps .

And then a couple of years latter he said this

Saturn Doom actually does use VDP1, it just uses it in a very bad way:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/540356852773552135/670595759200141327/unknown.png

That's to draw one piece of the wall, line by line.

Silanda
02-29-2020, 12:49 PM
Not that's any excuse for Saturn Doom not being better than it was, and all thanks to id not wanting to use the custom chips, while happy to use Tom and Jerry on the Jaguar. I've always disliked hypocrisy

It wasn't hypocrisy. Carmack's objection wasn't because he didn't want custom chips used, it's that he hated affine texture warping with a passion. Using VDP1 to render the walls as large quads would likely have introduced warping even if it would have been fast. The Playstation version (that Carmack worked on) was hardware accelerated too, but that version rendered everything as pixel wide strips rather than the usual large triangles. The PS1 version started out using a traditional polygon renderer, but that version was scrapped as it looked bad.

Team Andromeda
02-29-2020, 02:16 PM
It wasn't hypocrisy. Carmack's objection wasn't because he didn't want custom chips used, it's that he hated affine texture warping with a passion. Using VDP1 to render the walls as large quads would likely have introduced warping even if it would have been fast. The Playstation version (that Carmack worked on) was hardware accelerated too, but that version rendered everything as pixel wide strips rather than the usual large triangles. The PS1 version started out using a traditional polygon renderer, but that version was scrapped as it looked bad.

So it's ok to use the custome chips of the Jaguar,but not the Saturn. I don't remember the walls of Hexxen having folding issues on the Saturn , do you ?

TrekkiesUnite118
02-29-2020, 03:39 PM
So it's ok to use the custome chips of the Jaguar,but not the Saturn. I don't remember the walls of Hexxen having folding issues on the Saturn , do you ?

Hexen doesn't use VDP1 to render the walls, floors, etc. VDP1 just draws character sprites, objects, etc. The walls, floors, etc. are instead drawn by VDP2.

Silanda
02-29-2020, 04:12 PM
So it's ok to use the custome chips of the Jaguar,but not the Saturn.

Yes, because the Jag version's engine had no texture warping, and neither did the Playstation version after taking an unusual approach to hardware rendering on the system. Both versions managed good implementations of perspective correct texturing (or near to it). For Carmack to forbid the use of the Saturn's quad distorting abilities, it's reasonable to assume that the WIP Saturn version did indeed have affine warping. As I said, Carmack abandoned the initial version of the Playstation engine for the same reason. If Saturn Doom had been using a hardware accelerated engine with no warping, I'm sure it would have been approved.

As for Hexen, there is no warping but I highly suspect that is mainly using software rendering too; the floors and walls are drawn on VDP2 layer NBG0, with VDP1 drawing enemies, decorations, and the GUI. NBG0 is just a 2D scrollable background. However, look at Duke Nukem 3D and Quake: both use the highly praised Slavedriver engine, and both feature distortion from affine texturing. The warping is less pronounced than warping typically is on the PS1 due to the Saturn's use of quads rather than triangles, but it's there. It's hard to unsee once you notice it, and it obviously bothered JC enough that he wouldn't allow it in versions of Doom, though he later admitted that he probably shouldn't have been so hard line.

SegaDreamcast
02-29-2020, 05:42 PM
Anyone else hyped for Doom 64's rerelease? I thought it was awesome back in the day, ambient soundtrack by Aubrey Hodges was especially memorable and I always liked pre-rendered graphics.

Team Andromeda
03-01-2020, 12:36 AM
Hexen doesn't use VDP1 to render the walls, floors, etc. VDP1 just draws character sprites, objects, etc. The walls, floors, etc. are instead drawn by VDP2.

The walls are not being drawn by the VDP 2 .

Team Andromeda
03-01-2020, 12:40 AM
Yes, because the Jag version's engine had no texture warping, and neither did the Playstation version after taking an unusual approach to hardware rendering on the system. Both versions managed good implementations of perspective correct texturing (or near to it). For Carmack to forbid the use of the Saturn's quad distorting abilities, it's reasonable to assume that the WIP Saturn version did indeed have affine warping. As I said, Carmack abandoned the initial version of the Playstation engine for the same reason. If Saturn Doom had been using a hardware accelerated engine with no warping, I'm sure it would have been approved.

As for Hexen, there is no warping but I highly suspect that is mainly using software rendering too; the floors and walls are drawn on VDP2 layer NBG0, with VDP1 drawing enemies, decorations, and the GUI. NBG0 is just a 2D scrollable background. However, look at Duke Nukem 3D and Quake: both use the highly praised Slavedriver engine, and both feature distortion from affine texturing. The warping is less pronounced than warping typically is on the PS1 due to the Saturn's use of quads rather than triangles, but it's there. It's hard to unsee once you notice it, and it obviously bothered JC enough that he wouldn't allow it in versions of Doom, though he later admitted that he probably shouldn't have been so hard line.

Hexxen isn't using the VDP2 for the walls TBH. Also look at games like Deadlus and Alien Trilogy they don't suffer from warping. It was madness not to allow the VDP 1 to handle the graphics and very much double standards on id part .

TrekkiesUnite118
03-01-2020, 09:43 AM
The walls are not being drawn by the VDP 2 .

Yes they are. Hexen uses a software renderer as well. The Doom Engine that both games use on PC works by drawing walls line by line, and both Saturn ports look to still be doing this. The key difference though is that Doom on the Saturn is treating each line like a 1 pixel high Sprite and having VDP1 draw them, while Hexen is having VDP2 draw all the lines to one of it's background layers. Anyone who's done Saturn work will tell you that VDP1 is the choke point. It's horribly slow and doesn't have the fill rate to really fill the entire screen buffer at a good speed. VDP2 has more fill rate if I remember correctly so it makes sense that handing off the task of drawing lines to fill the screen would work faster on VDP2 than on VDP1.

That said, Hexen still doesn't run that great on Saturn. It's better than Doom, but I'd say we're still looking at high teens to low 20s for the frame rate.

Silanda
03-01-2020, 09:49 AM
Hexxen isn't using the VDP2 for the walls TBH. Also look at games like Deadlus and Alien Trilogy they don't suffer from warping. It was madness not to allow the VDP 1 to handle the graphics and very much double standards on id part .

Hexen's walls, floors, and ceilings are likely software rendered and then displayed as a VDP2 layer. Check it yourself, the environment minus sprites and GUI is drawn as a complete frame on VDP2 NBG0 and is not made up of VDP1 sprites.

Robotica/Daedalus and Alien Trilogy exhibit little obvious warping, but there are subtle artifacts that are noticeable and are not present in Doom or Hexen. Robotica's wall textures are a little unstable looking when you turn; it's subtle, but they kind of wobble when you move or turn. Alien Trilogy also has very minor glitches when the angle/distance a texture is viewed at changes (especially at tight angles) that are not present in Doom or Hexen, and are possibly the result of techniques used to avoid warping.

What works in one game won't necessarily work in others anyway. Those two games managed to use VDP1 to render the walls while avoiding readily noticeable warping, but they were dark, had rather short draw distances, and were largely based around tight corridors. Doom, Hexen, Duke 3D, and Quake featured more open levels and longer draw distances, so the same optimisations that avoided warping may not have been possible there. Robotica in particular had very simple level designs.

Besides, other games have no bearing on the discussion as John Carmack had nothing to do with them. Doom was his game, and he decided that he didn't want hardware quad warping used as he didn't want any texture warping or popping at all. It was perhaps too extreme, but there's nothing hypocritical in his stance considering the same appears true of all versions of Doom up until that point. Hell, Hexen might even confirm the consistency if it's software rendered considering it's AFAIK the only other port of a Doom engine game on the system.

Team Andromeda
03-01-2020, 10:15 AM
Hexen's walls, floors, and ceilings are likely software rendered and then displayed as a VDP2 layer. Check it yourself, the environment minus sprites and GUI is drawn as a complete frame on VDP2 NBG0 and is not made up of VDP1 sprites.

Robotica/Daedalus and Alien Trilogy exhibit little obvious warping, but there are subtle artifacts that are noticeable and are not present in Doom or Hexen. Robotica's wall textures are a little unstable looking when you turn; it's subtle, but they kind of wobble when you move or turn. Alien Trilogy also has very minor glitches when the angle/distance a texture is viewed at changes (especially at tight angles) that are not present in Doom or Hexen, and are possibly the result of techniques used to avoid warping.

What works in one game won't necessarily work in others anyway. Those two games managed to use VDP1 to render the walls while avoiding readily noticeable warping, but they were dark, had rather short draw distances, and were largely based around tight corridors. Doom, Hexen, Duke 3D, and Quake featured more open levels and longer draw distances, so the same optimisations that avoided warping may not have been possible there. Robotica in particular had very simple level designs.

Besides, other games have no bearing on the discussion as John Carmack had nothing to do with them. Doom was his game, and he decided that he didn't want hardware quad warping used as he didn't want any texture warping or popping at all. It was perhaps too extreme, but there's nothing hypocritical in his stance considering the same appears true of all versions of Doom up until that point. Hell, Hexen might even confirm the consistency if it's software rendered considering it's AFAIK the only other port of a Doom engine game on the system.

I very much doubt Hexen is using the VDP II to handle the walls and the floor since it's only got 2 scrolling layers and Hexen doesn't really have just flat walls but has a mixture of Windows, Piliers, Arches and so on. I would sort of agree with you that it's software and VDP1 driven. I never saw any warping in Deadlus TBH and actually thought in May 1995 it was a really nice looking game, with hands down the best FMV saw on the Saturn at the time. Shame that Micronet looked to make random generated levels ever time you played and so all levels looked the same (like Toe Jam and Earl) there'a little in Alien Trilogy, but it's hardly a massive, can't remember much in Baroque either or even in Exhumed (unlike the PS version)

If Doom on the Jag had been software-driven it wouldn't have been half the game, so think it was very silly and a little bit hypocritical not to allow Rage to use the custom hardware of the Saturn. To me it defeats the object of putting the game on the consoles, because back then, they didn't have the CPU speed and looked to the custom chips to make up the difference. The Saturn could have had the best-looking console version and also one running at double the speed of the PS.
Instead, we had a crap port and PS fans and mag's used it has more proof the Saturn was rubbish at 3D (even if it wasn't really a 3D polygon game). It would have been better if John said no to the Saturn version, thanks to his stance we got a worse version, rather than the best, even if it would have a little warping who care's. Instead it was game used to bash the Saturn and make the PS look great again

TrekkiesUnite118
03-01-2020, 10:27 AM
I very much doubt Hexen is using the VDP II to handle the walls and the floor since it's only got 2 scrolling layers and Hexen doesn't really have just flat walls but has a mixture of Windows, Piliers, Arches and so on. I would sort of agree with you that it's software and VDP1 driven. I never saw any warping in Deadlus TBH and actually thought in May 1995 it was a really nice looking game, with hands down the best FMV saw on the Saturn at the time. Shame that Micronet looked to make random generated levels ever time you played and so all levels looked the same (like Toe Jam and Earl) there'a little in Alien Trilogy, but it's hardly a massive, can't remember much in Baroque either or even in Exhumed (unlike the PS version)

When we disable VDP2, we see this is what remains in Hexen:
https://i.imgur.com/uXksOVp.png

When we re-enable VDP2 and disable VDP1, this is what remains:
https://i.imgur.com/mZw04Pv.png

It's pretty clear that VDP2 is what's drawing the walls, floors, ceilings, etc.



If Doom on the Jag had been software-driven it wouldn't have been half the game, so think it was very silly and a little bit hypocritical not to allow Rage to use the custom hardware of the Saturn. To me it defeats the object of putting the game on the consoles, because back then, they didn't have the CPU speed and looked to the custom chips to make up the difference. The Saturn could have had the best-looking console version and also one running at double the speed of the PS.
Instead, we had a crap port and PS fans and mag's used it has more proof the Saturn was rubbish at 3D (even if it wasn't really a 3D polygon game). It would have been better if John said no to the Saturn version, thanks to his stance we got a worse version, rather than the best, even if it would have a little warping who care's. Instead it was game used to bash the Saturn and make the PS look great again

Doom on the Jaguar is Software driven, just like the 32X Version.

Team Andromeda
03-01-2020, 01:49 PM
When we disable VDP2, we see this is what remains in Hexen:
https://i.imgur.com/uXksOVp.png

When we re-enable VDP2 and disable VDP1, this is what remains:
https://i.imgur.com/mZw04Pv.png

It's pretty clear that VDP2 is what's drawing the walls, floors, ceilings, etc.

Consider me owned on that one







Doom on the Jaguar is Software driven, just like the 32X Version

What on the Jaguar limted 68000 main CPU? .
John rewrote the code for the Jaguar version and looked to make use of the RISC custom chips and also look to use the Jaguar CRY colour.
Without using Tom I very much doubt the game would have looked or moved as good

TrekkiesUnite118
03-01-2020, 02:28 PM
What on the Jaguar limted 68000 main CPU? .
John rewrote the code for the Jaguar version and looked to make use of the RISC custom chips and also look to use the Jaguar CRY colour.
Without using Tom I very much doubt the game would have looked or moved as good

You realize that the 68000 isn't supposed to be the main CPU on the Jaguar right? Atari intended people to use the RISC chips, but most developers opted for the 68000 because it was easier. Doom uses the Tom and Jerry chips as intended, but it's using them to crunch through the math for the software rendering code. That's why there's no music. Both chips are being used to run the software rendering code.

Team Andromeda
03-02-2020, 02:46 AM
You realize that the 68000 isn't supposed to be the main CPU on the Jaguar right? Atari intended people to use the RISC chips, but most developers opted for the 68000 because it was easier. .
That goes with out saying, that's my point; I remember the interview with John in Edge and thanks to using the custom chips in the Jaguar games would run20 times faster than if he did in software and used the 68000.

The Saturn's power (or lack of) came from its VDP1 and VDP2 chips and it's a shame John was so against Jim making full use of the VDP1. Instead, we got a Saturn version which pleased no one and didn't make Doom look great. It was self-defeating.
Ok by 1997 Doom was a old game, but it still would have been good to a Saturn version with all the detail of the PSX version, running full screen and double the frame rate.

In the end we got a game that was a little better than the 3DO version, Cheer's John, great call.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-02-2020, 08:44 AM
That goes with out saying, that's my point; I remember the interview with John in Edge and thanks to using the custom chips in the Jaguar games would run20 times faster than if he did in software and used the 68000.

Ok, this is where you really need to work on your reading comprehension as it's where you get yourself into trouble on this forum. Carmack here is talking about the 68000 vs the custom chips in the Jaguar. He is not however saying that Doom on Jaguar is a hardware accelerated port. The Jaguar Port is still using a variant of Dooms software renderer. You can look at the source code yourself as it has been released publicly. The Jaguar's Tom and Jerry chips do have custom bits in them for Graphics and Sound yes, but they are also very powerful RISC CPUs. Carmack is referring to this aspect of them in comparison to the 68000. He's referring to the RISC CPUs, not saying that it's a hardware accelerated port of Doom with polygons.



The Saturn's power (or lack of) came from its VDP1 and VDP2 chips and it's a shame John was so against Jim making full use of the VDP1. Instead, we got a Saturn version which pleased no one and didn't make Doom look great. It was self-defeating.
Ok by 1997 Doom was a old game, but it still would have been good to a Saturn version with all the detail of the PSX version, running full screen and double the frame rate.

In the end we got a game that was a little better than the 3DO version, Cheer's John, great call.

Saturn Doom IS making full use of VDP1. And that's why it's running so poorly. VDP1 is the Saturn's choke point. It's slow, memory wasteful, and inefficient. Saturn Doom is using the Doom Software Rendering code and is using VDP1 sprites to draw each individual line as a sprite for the Walls, floors, etc. That's why it's running so slow. That's a lot of sprites and VDP1 with it's slow performance and low fillrate simply can't keep up. PS1 can do that fine though as it's GPU is much faster. VDP2 is much more suited to doing something like that (Filling the screen line by line), which is probably why Probe went that route with Hexen and is probably why it runs better.

If you think the software renderer is the choke point for Saturn Doom, then go look at the 32X version. It too is using the classic Doom software renderer and is running on the same CPUs as the Saturn but at a lower speed and with less Memory. Yet it still manages to maintain a frame rate of around 20fps.

As for using distorted quads to render the walls, people have tried that with the 3DO version and found that it doesn't help that much. You either get horrible texture warping, or you have to subdivide the polygons so much that that you end up still hitting fillrate limits.

Team Andromeda
03-02-2020, 10:49 AM
The Jag verison is using the custom chips , one couldn't use the crappy CPU . The 32X verison is running in lower Res and in a Window (even on NTSC) maybe there was an argument for Jim and Rage going that way on the Saturn, but even then I sure most would have bashed the Saturn version, since the 32X looked like crap compared to the Jaguar.

Jim went into a bit of Detail with his port with Retro and he was going to have the VDP1 and the main SH2 handle the sprites , while the slave SH2 was going to handle the walls with the VDP2

Only for John to stop it, even though Jim said it looked better and run at double the frame rate of the PS verison . I do admire Jim for keeping his silence on the Subject untill 2014 with the Retro feature .

Many of us here and elsewhere slagged off the port and Rage software and it must have damaged Jim portfolio a little . But he never hit out and respected John call. That's a lot about the man .

Wesker
03-02-2020, 01:28 PM
I suppose the fact that Hexen for the Sega Saturn relies on displaying one-sided enemies always facing you, sort of like Doom for the 32X and the SNES do, is also a factor against Doom for the Sega Saturn which features full-sided enemies. I always wondered about what would be the performance of Hexen for the Sega Saturn, as it is programmed, without cutting those animation frames. Hexen for the PlayStation does the same too, in fact.

zyrobs
03-02-2020, 07:33 PM
VDP2 is much more suited to doing something like that (Filling the screen line by line), which is probably why Probe went that route with Hexen and is probably why it runs better.

The VDP2 can't fill the screen line by line, not how the Doom renderer works anyway. You need to do software rendering on the SH2s, and then you copy over the final result to the VDP2 for display (SH2 HIRAM is 2x as fast as writing to VDP2 RAM, so even assuming for the time it takes to copy over a frame, you'd be faster drawing into HIRAM).

It's probably what Hexen does, and I'm assuming that so would other software rendered games (AMOK, the Sonic R loading screen, etc).

TrekkiesUnite118
03-02-2020, 08:51 PM
The Jag verison is using the custom chips , one couldn't use the crappy CPU .

For the love of good work on your reading comprehension as it's quite poor. Those custom chips are RISC Processors. Those are the processors handling the software rendering code for Doom.


The 32X verison is running in lower Res and in a Window (even on NTSC) maybe there was an argument for Jim and Rage going that way on the Saturn, but even then I sure most would have bashed the Saturn version, since the 32X looked like crap compared to the Jaguar.

And a lot of that comes from the 32X being clocked lower and having far less memory available and having to fit on a small cart. That said it still would have probably been a good starting point for a Saturn port due to the similar dual SH-2 set up.


Jim went into a bit of Detail with his port with Retro and he was going to have the VDP1 and the main SH2 handle the sprites , while the slave SH2 was going to handle the walls with the VDP2

Only for John to stop it, even though Jim said it looked better and run at double the frame rate of the PS verison . I do admire Jim for keeping his silence on the Subject untill 2014 with the Retro feature .

Again reading comprehension. Jim was going to have VDP1 draw the sprites and walls with VDP2 only drawing background graphics. While that may have ran better, we don't know how bad the texture warping was for Carmack to throw it out. What you described is what Hexen is doing which is still software rendering.



The VDP2 can't fill the screen line by line, not how the Doom renderer works anyway. You need to do software rendering on the SH2s, and then you copy over the final result to the VDP2 for display (SH2 HIRAM is 2x as fast as writing to VDP2 RAM, so even assuming for the time it takes to copy over a frame, you'd be faster drawing into HIRAM).

It's probably what Hexen does, and I'm assuming that so would other software rendered games (AMOK, the Sonic R loading screen, etc).

Sorry, that's what I was trying to get at.

Blades
03-02-2020, 09:50 PM
PS1 can do that fine though as it's GPU is much faster.

PS1 supports columns in hardware, so game, set, and match against Saturn Doom.

Team Andromeda
03-03-2020, 04:56 AM
Those custom chips are RISC Processors. Those are the processors handling the software rendering code for Doom.


Yes that's the point. John was using the custom chips to help with calculations, that wouldn't be there, if John looked to do it via software and via the Jaguar CPU to handle most of the work.


And a lot of that comes from the 32X being clocked lower and having far less memory available and having to fit on a small cart

I'm not saying otherwise. The 32X version looked like crap. While the Saturn version looked much better when static, it was the movement that hurt the Saturn version, even up against the 32X one. It was really a bad day for SEGA when Doom looked and run better on the Jaguar than both the 32X and Saturn. When we could have had a version that blew away all other consoles versions and maybe even the PC, maybe that's what John didn't like ;).

Of coruse Doom also came out on the Jaguar on a cart and blew away the 32X version.


Again reading comprehension. Jim was going to have VDP1 draw the sprites and walls with VDP2 only drawing background graphics. While that may have ran better, we don't know how bad the texture warping was for Carmack to throw it out.

Quite. But looking at other Saturn games and FPS's warping wasn't quite the issue it was with the PS. Not that I really thought Doom gfx were that impressive by the time of Saturn or PS TBH. I thought Duke, Alien, Exhumed really made Doom look dated. The big bonus would have been the 60 fps, that would have been quite amazing for a FPS on the consoles at that time, more so running at full screen with all the detail of the PS version. I think on a Radio Pod Jim even said that if he had submitted the Saturn version for approval 2 weels later, it would have been approved since John Romero would have been back off the sick and he usually handled that side of things

I would imagine with all its issues the VDP1 was better than the Tom in Jaguar, which had its own issues of bottlenecks and bugs and I believe running just a little slower than the VDP1?.

bpguimaraes23
03-03-2020, 08:05 AM
PS1 supports columns in hardware, so game, set, and match against Saturn Doom.

What is this support for columns? You mean line drawing mode? Doesn’t the Saturn have that?

TrekkiesUnite118
03-03-2020, 08:17 AM
Yes that's the point. John was using the custom chips to help with calculations, that wouldn't be there, if John looked to do it via software and via the Jaguar CPU to handle most of the work.

No, you keep missing the point. Read this slowly and let it sink in. Those chips aren't just helping with the calculations, they're the chips DOING the calculations. They effectively ARE the CPUs in this scenario. DOOM on Jaguar IS Software rendered with those Chips doing the software cacluations. It is NOT hardware accelerated with polygons like you are suggesting and it's no where close to what supposedly Saturn Doom was doing before Carmack told them to start over.

The Tom and Jerry chips in the Jaguar are NOT a traditional GPU and Sound chip. They are custom RISC CPUs with additional features added to help with graphics and sound. Go re-read John's interview in Edge that you love bringing up. He clearly refers to them as RISC CPUs and mentions that he is doing software rendering with them. He states that the system is very flexible in that you can either use the 68k as your main CPU or use the RISC chips.

Seriously, this is why you constantly find yourself in trouble on this forum. Your reading comprehension is extremely poor due to either laziness or some learning disability. Take the time to read things and actually understand what is being said for once.


Of coruse Doom also came out on the Jaguar on a cart and blew away the 32X version.

Because the Jaguar version is on a bigger cart, came out later, and the Jaguar is more powerful than the 32X.


Quite. But looking at other Saturn games and FPS's warping wasn't quite the issue it was with the PS. Not that I really thought Doom gfx were that impressive by the time of Saturn or PS TBH. I thought Duke, Alien, Exhumed really made Doom look dated. The big bonus would have been the 60 fps, that would have been quite amazing for a FPS on the consoles at that time, more so running at full screen with all the detail of the PS version. I think on a Radio Pod Jim even said that if he had submitted the Saturn version for approval 2 weels later, it would have been approved since John Romero would have been back off the sick and he usually handled that side of things

But Duke Nukem, Powerslave, etc. don't run at 60fps. They run at 20-30fps. The reason being they're doing tons of polygon subdividing the closer to the camera you get to avoid as much distortion as possible. If this port of Doom was running at 60fps, that tells me that probably wasn't being done which would mean a lot of warping. Again people trying to enhance the 3DO port that way ran into similar issues:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ytaHm7ABk

Take a look at how bad the texture warping gets when he switches from the Doom Renderer to a Polygon based Renderer. Especially around the doors. I wouldn't be surprised if this is close to what Carmack was seeing on this supposedly 60fps Saturn port.


I would imagine with all its issues the VDP1 was better than the Tom in Jaguar, which had its own issues of bottlenecks and bugs and I believe running just a little slower than the VDP1?.

VDP1 is just a sprite generator that can draw sprites to a frame buffer. Tom is a RISC CPU with some additional features to help with graphics. It's an Apples to Oranges comparison. Secondly VDP1 IS being used in Saturn Doom to draw most of what you see including the Walls. The choke point isn't the SH-2s doing the Software rendering, it's VDP1 not being able to keep up with all the 1-pixel high sprites it's being asked to draw.

Blades
03-03-2020, 12:18 PM
What is this support for columns? You mean line drawing mode? Doesn’t the Saturn have that?

The PSX could render giant pixel-wide column "triangles" which was perfect for Doom. Here's a quote from Game Engine Black Book: Doom v1.1.

https://i5ydvq.by.files.1drv.com/y4mAhkb87SEIWTCykKwBSKlHHrU2DgmeMSt9nTv4kaFc1CsECB G9U9b9WErgoLCzDZDTu270yGZVQWaOp5pwJS_s_1pwCax6lAEl 4W8no-ZBif-uJEKJarZKzuTGgLGQD0-l9LIzMHDXKbeI-aOk6x0tumHMdr0goG-FFALUFBtnMM-_MURu1qxhkqe-nCSNBoerKgQF7HfwVoKIcNn8cWA2A?width=515&height=384&cropmode=none

bpguimaraes23
03-03-2020, 12:44 PM
The PSX could render giant pixel-wide column "triangles" which was perfect for Doom. Here's a quote from Game Engine Black Book: Doom v1.1.

https://i5ydvq.by.files.1drv.com/y4mAhkb87SEIWTCykKwBSKlHHrU2DgmeMSt9nTv4kaFc1CsECB G9U9b9WErgoLCzDZDTu270yGZVQWaOp5pwJS_s_1pwCax6lAEl 4W8no-ZBif-uJEKJarZKzuTGgLGQD0-l9LIzMHDXKbeI-aOk6x0tumHMdr0goG-FFALUFBtnMM-_MURu1qxhkqe-nCSNBoerKgQF7HfwVoKIcNn8cWA2A?width=515&height=384&cropmode=none

Thanks. I think I encountered a language barrier because I can’t even imagine what a “ pixel-wide column triangle” is 😂.

Black_Tiger
03-03-2020, 02:59 PM
What kind of monitor supported framerates of 760fps at 5760p? :opa:

Silanda
03-03-2020, 03:35 PM
LoL. The peril of using a superscript numerical reference style in a work containing lots of numbers.

Team Andromeda
03-03-2020, 05:23 PM
They effectively ARE the CPUs in this scenario. DOOM on Jaguar IS Software rendered with those Chips doing the software cacluations. It is NOT hardware accelerated with polygons like you are suggesting and it's no where close to what supposedly Saturn Doom was doing before Carmack told them to start over..

It's still using the custom chips. If Jim was allowed to use the custom chips of the Saturn, we would have had a Doom port with all the GFX of the PS/PC versions running at 60 fps.



Seriously, this is why you constantly find yourself in trouble on this forum. Your reading comprehension is extremely poor due to either laziness or some learning disability. Take the time to read things and actually understand what is being said for once.

So insulting and so nasty, what a horrible thing to say.










Because the Jaguar version is on a bigger cart, came out later, and the Jaguar is more powerful than the 32X.

We are talking weeks and since you reference EDGE, In that very interview John hadn't even started work on the 32X version at that time


Secondly VDP1 IS being used in Saturn Doom to draw most of what you see including the Walls. The choke point isn't the SH-2s doing the Software rendering, it's VDP1 not being able to keep up with all the 1-pixel high sprites it's being asked to draw.

So why was Jim version using the '3D hardware' able to run at 60 fps? Where was the chokepoint of the VDP1 in Jim's code

turboxray
03-03-2020, 08:40 PM
It's still using the custom chips. If Jim was allowed to use the custom chips of the Saturn, we would have had a Doom port with all the GFX of the PS/PC versions running at 60 fps.

It's pretty clear you don't understand the point being made here. I mean, how else is Doom even going to run on the system??? The so-called 'special' chips ARE the system. You're not getting pixel plotting otherwise. Using polygons or such is entirely different.

stu
03-03-2020, 09:39 PM
Here's the Edge interview that this was discussed. Carmack clearly says he had to rewrite the 3D code on the RISC processors running in software, as Trekkies says. Just more evidence of TA talking out of his ass .. as usual. :rofl:


https://i.ibb.co/fMYJFcM/Jag-Doom-Interview-pg1.jpg (https://ibb.co/fMYJFcM)



https://i.ibb.co/x8Pq4c6/Jag-Doom-Interview-pg2.jpg (https://ibb.co/x8Pq4c6)

Edit: For extra ownage I've uploaded the quotes from Jim Bagley on the development of the Saturn version of Doom, courtesy of Retrogamer. In it he clearly states that he was required to use software rendering like how the PC did it, he also said that he used both SH2s and used the 68000 in the Saturn to "orchestrate them". Sounds strangely like how the Jag version worked as well. Who da thought it huh TA?

https://i.ibb.co/6R99YXj/RG-Saturn-Doom-quote.jpg (https://ibb.co/6R99YXj)

Blades
03-04-2020, 02:43 AM
There’s some clear misunderstandings going on with both sides here.

Carmack only nixed using horrible uncorrected polygons for Doom. Of course Bagley got 60 FPS with “hardware mode,” he was bypassing a key component of the Doom engine, a built-in perspective correction. The PSX could’ve probably gotten 120 FPS if it rendered everything as GTE polygons, even though it would look awful.

Bagley really did the worst job of all the Doom ports. Game speed was fudged to make it seem like it was running faster than it is, audio was broken and simply recorded from a live PlayStation, and the SH2s used mediocre.

The Jag was an excellent port for the hardware. Yes, both are using software rendering as we understand the term today, but the Saturn left most of the advantages of its architecture (like the DSP’s fast matrix calculations) completely untouched while the Jag was even using the processor dedicated to sound for collision detection.

Just lazy. I definitely believe the Saturn could pull off a good port of Doom “in software,” it’s just never been tried and probably never will be.

Carmack did the right thing IMO.

Team Andromeda
03-04-2020, 05:05 AM
Lets leave it at this


Given the time and freedom, yes, I’d have done a better version of Doom than the PlayStation version, and it would have looked better than the PC version too. I know for a fact, as it did look better.

Thanks for nothing John

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-04-2020, 07:22 AM
Anyone else hyped for Doom 64's rerelease? I thought it was awesome back in the day, ambient soundtrack by Aubrey Hodges was especially memorable and I always liked pre-rendered graphics.

Yes I am. I never had the chance to play Doom 64 back in the day, but I heard how good it was and am looking forward to playing the re-release. :)

stu
03-04-2020, 10:52 AM
Done some googling.

John Carmack confirmed that he had the game rewritten as he hated "affine texture swim and integral quad verts". However he admitted that he should of probably allowed experimentation.

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/519828531950665728

As for using the Saturn's DSPs, Bagley had this to say:

Quote: "Be thankful I didn't do the rendering using the heavily bottlenecked DSPs that Carmack suggested, it would have been a lot slower having to transfer data in and out constantly through the 2K+2K DSPs"

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1580057

zyrobs
03-04-2020, 03:20 PM
Carmack could make the Jaguar DSPs work despite that limitation, and some other Saturn games use it without problems... then again I don't know what code they could or could not run on it.

edit: also, comparing any programmer to Carmack is pretty unfair. It's like comparing a piano player to Liszt or Beethoven. So yeah, maybe the DSPs truly would not have helped, since they would have been too difficult to utilize.

Blades
03-05-2020, 01:06 AM
TT used the DSP on Sonic R without issues. The creator made a whole video on his YouTube channel about how great it was.

Bagley is a textbook example of a below average developer given a task he could never have done considering the demanding hardware and software. Whoever heard of getting a job porting a game because you “played it a lot during lunch??” The blame is 50% id’s considering how they were whoring out Doom at this point (3DO).

Here’s the video. The DSP handles a large chunk of the 3D math in Sonic R. Bottlenecked indeed...

https://youtu.be/n8plen8cLro

Team Andromeda
03-05-2020, 07:51 AM
TT used the DSP on Sonic R without issues. The creator made a whole video on his YouTube channel about how great it was.

Bagley is a textbook example of a below average developer given a task he could never have done considering the demanding hardware and software. Whoever heard of getting a job porting a game because you “played it a lot during lunch??” The blame is 50% id’s considering how they were whoring out Doom at this point (3DO).


He's hardly that. Mr Bagley was able to push the ZX Spectrum in nothing more than software rendering Sonic R might have been a good example were it not for the game also making use of the VDP1 as well to the software effects, with little polygon folding it should be added.
I've read some interviews with the late great Fergus McGovern where he lied to the IP holder's to get a contract (im sure he lied to SEGA over Master system Chess) and Rage had handle early Saturn ports quite well to the Saturn, for EA and Codemasters

In the end it really doesn't matter. John Carkmarck even said in a Tweet he was wrong not to allow Jim to experiment. Not doubt why John didn't have many issues with Lobotomy using the VDP1 for Quake or didn't seem to care for the warping in the PS version of Quake 2.

I would have rathered a game with a little a bit of warping, but with all the detail and running at 60 fps to what we got with Saturn Doom.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-05-2020, 09:59 AM
It's still using the custom chips. If Jim was allowed to use the custom chips of the Saturn, we would have had a Doom port with all the GFX of the PS/PC versions running at 60 fps.

The custom jaguar chips are CPUs, so it's still software rendering on the Jaguar. And Jim did use VDP1.



So insulting and so nasty, what a horrible thing to say.

There was nothing nasty in there, just cold hard truth. Take the time to read peoples posts and you won't get such "nasty" posts thrown at you.




We are talking weeks and since you reference EDGE, In that very interview John hadn't even started work on the 32X version at that time

Even more evidence that the 32X version was rushed then while the Jaguar version had more time in the oven.



So why was Jim version using the '3D hardware' able to run at 60 fps? Where was the chokepoint of the VDP1 in Jim's code

No one has ever seen it so we don't know what it actually looked like or did. All we have is his word that it ran at 60fps. That said, it was probably rendering a low number of large quads. While that may look fine in static screenshots, once you start moving things are going to start distorting all over the place. Which is probably why Carmack nixed it. On Saturn and PS1 you need to use smaller polygons to make up things so you get less texture warping. As things get closer to the camera, you need to subdivide the polygons more to further reduce instances of warping. You can actually see this behavior in a game like Wipeout running in wireframe mode:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8yLq45tDGc



TT used the DSP on Sonic R without issues. The creator made a whole video on his YouTube channel about how great it was.

Bagley is a textbook example of a below average developer given a task he could never have done considering the demanding hardware and software. Whoever heard of getting a job porting a game because you “played it a lot during lunch??” The blame is 50% id’s considering how they were whoring out Doom at this point (3DO).

Here’s the video. The DSP handles a large chunk of the 3D math in Sonic R. Bottlenecked indeed...

https://youtu.be/n8plen8cLro

It's more that there's only so many things you can use the DSP effectively for. If things aren't timed properly across memory, the different CPUs, etc. it can result in unexpected results and become a nightmare. On top of it all, in a lot of cases it's for little gain.

zyrobs
03-05-2020, 10:14 PM
Stop arguing with the retarded child, you'll only end up upsetting yourself. Do yourself a favour and block him.


TT used the DSP on Sonic R without issues. The creator made a whole video on his YouTube channel about how great it was.

Bagley is a textbook example of a below average developer given a task he could never have done considering the demanding hardware and software. Whoever heard of getting a job porting a game because you “played it a lot during lunch??” The blame is 50% id’s considering how they were whoring out Doom at this point (3DO).

Here’s the video. The DSP handles a large chunk of the 3D math in Sonic R. Bottlenecked indeed...

https://youtu.be/n8plen8cLro

The DSP is limited in what it can do. 3D matrix math is one thing it excels at, because that's something that can take advantage of the strong points of the DSP - the ability to run multiple instructions simultaneously and to output 48-bit operands. If you can't take advantage of the chips parallel nature, then it won't be faster than the SH2, in fact it might even be slower.
We can't tell if the Doom engine has anything in it that can be processed in a way to take advantage of the DSP. Perhaps someone who looked into the Jaguar versions code (if that one is even public) could tell more on how that works, for comparisons sake.

As for Saturn Doom with VDP1 hardware polygons being able to reach 60fps - AFAIK the Doom engine, due to the nature of how it works, occludes all off-screen polygons and only draws EXACTLY what is on screen. In other words, there is zero overdraw, not counting the sprites. The VDP1 should be capable of drawing as much as one screens worth of pixels at 60 frames per second, so I find this conceivable. But according to that coder, it looked good and by that I can assume it didn't have affine tearing, so I can only wonder what exactly they did to get 60fps. Maybe the fact that both engines output quads would slightly reduce the problem (not eliminate it, just reduce it so it's bearable).

stu
03-05-2020, 10:32 PM
Stop arguing with the retarded child, you'll only end up upsetting yourself. Do yourself a favour and block him.



The DSP is limited in what it can do. 3D matrix math is one thing it excels at, because that's something that can take advantage of the strong points of the DSP - the ability to run multiple instructions simultaneously and to output 48-bit operands. If you can't take advantage of the chips parallel nature, then it won't be faster than the SH2, in fact it might even be slower.
We can't tell if the Doom engine has anything in it that can be processed in a way to take advantage of the DSP. Perhaps someone who looked into the Jaguar versions code (if that one is even public) could tell more on how that works, for comparisons sake.

As for Saturn Doom with VDP1 hardware polygons being able to reach 60fps - AFAIK the Doom engine, due to the nature of how it works, occludes all off-screen polygons and only draws EXACTLY what is on screen. In other words, there is zero overdraw, not counting the sprites. The VDP1 should be capable of drawing as much as one screens worth of pixels at 60 frames per second, so I find this conceivable. But according to that coder, it looked good and by that I can assume it didn't have affine tearing, so I can only wonder what exactly they did to get 60fps. Maybe the fact that both engines output quads would slightly reduce the problem (not eliminate it, just reduce it so it's bearable).

Apparently the source code for the Jag version of Doom was released to the public by John Carmack himself and Songbird Productions.



(https://atariage.com/forums/topic/25350-jaguar-doom-source-code-released/)https://atariage.com/forums/topic/25350-jaguar-doom-source-code-released/


https://www.atariage.com/Jaguar/archives/DoomSource/

TrekkiesUnite118
03-05-2020, 10:53 PM
Stop arguing with the retarded child, you'll only end up upsetting yourself. Do yourself a favour and block him.

I know, I just can't stand so much stupid being posted as facts.




The DSP is limited in what it can do. 3D matrix math is one thing it excels at, because that's something that can take advantage of the strong points of the DSP - the ability to run multiple instructions simultaneously and to output 48-bit operands. If you can't take advantage of the chips parallel nature, then it won't be faster than the SH2, in fact it might even be slower.

Even then the stars need to align just right. Some homebrew developers on SegaXtreme have been getting annoyed trying to use the thing. Even when they use Sega's own code and use it for 3D Matrix Math like it's designed to be used for, they barely see any performance increases on real hardware.

Team Andromeda
03-06-2020, 09:03 AM
The custom jaguar chips are CPUs, so it's still software rendering on the Jaguar. And Jim did use VDP1.


Jim was told to make Saturn Doom like the PC and use the CPU. That was not the process id used for the Jaguar.


Even more evidence that the 32X version was rushed then while the Jaguar version had more time in the oven

Yeah, that's a fair comment. I think both were rushed and both had issues over Cart space too.


You can actually see this behavior in a game like Wipeout running in wireframe mode

It was more of an issue for the PS. We aren't on about a full 3D game like Wipout that was built around the PS hardware. But a 1994 PC game and one that could run half decent on a 33Mh 486.
Really, how much Polygon folding did you see in Exhumed on Saturn. It is so minimal one doesn't really notice it, very much true for Alien Trilogy on the Saturn, compared to the PS.
The Saturn version should have been a lot better, I would have rathered a Saturn version running so much better (even if we need to take 60 fps with a pinch of salt) with a little warping.




No one has ever seen it so we don't know what it actually looked like or did. All we have is his word that it ran at 60fps

That's fair enough. But John Carmack even said in his tweet to Jim that he should have allowed him to experiment after the story broke in RetroGamer


@PeterBridger

@JimBagley69
I hated affine texture swim and integral quad verts, but in hindsight, I probably should have let experiment.

@ID_AA_Carmack
No worries John, you guys were paying for the conversion and that's how you wanted it done. At least now I know why :D







There was nothing nasty in there, just cold hard truth

In an age of #Benice and it in the news. It's so sick for you to even bring it up. And for what? Disagreement over games...

Team Andromeda
03-06-2020, 09:11 AM
edit: also, comparing any programmer to Carmack is pretty unfair. It's like comparing a piano player to Liszt or Beethoven.

That depends. I thought good old Geoff Crammond was the best programmer of his day on the PC and Microcomputers.
Still, none of them can hold a candle to Hidetoshi Takeshitam, the best programmer around in the 32Bit gen ;) :P

zyrobs
03-06-2020, 10:53 AM
TA, could you please stop breathing?

Not even for too long, just maybe 15 minutes or so.

Blades
03-06-2020, 03:45 PM
Can you people behave. Wishing death for something as silly as TEXTURE WARPING IN DOOM is nonsense.

evilevoix
03-06-2020, 03:52 PM
Oh what could have been, but what was.

Blades
03-06-2020, 04:02 PM
It's a shame the development tools are all for archaic hardware. It'd be fun to give this notorious DSP and the mischievous SH2 siblings a go in old-fashioned low level code.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-06-2020, 10:09 PM
Jim was told to make Saturn Doom like the PC and use the CPU. That was not the process id used for the Jaguar.


It was definitely the process on the Jaguar. The Jaguar version is still using software rendering on the RISC CPUs. And just to put this to bed, here is proof that Doom on Saturn is using VDP1 to draw the walls, and that VDP1 is infact the choke point:

Doom With VDP1 disabled, VDP2 enabled:
https://i.imgur.com/VphLles.png

VDP2 disabled, VDP1 enabled:
https://i.imgur.com/WtN0d6z.png

So there you have it, Doom on Saturn IS using VDP1 to draw almost everything. Hexen runs better because it does the opposite. VDP1 draws very little, and VDP2 draws the bulk of it.



It was more of an issue for the PS. We aren't on about a full 3D game like Wipout that was built around the PS hardware. But a 1994 PC game and one that could run half decent on a 33Mh 486.

Warping is an issue on the Saturn too, it just happens a little differently. It happens more when polygons get closer to the edges of the screen.



Really, how much Polygon folding did you see in Exhumed on Saturn. It is so minimal one doesn't really notice it, very much true for Alien Trilogy on the Saturn, compared to the PS.

Because those games do a ton of subdividing to try and hide it. And they target 30fps but usually have dips below that. They're not doing 60fps. The only way you'd be getting 60fps in an FPS would be if you were using huge quads to lower the number of quads being used, and that would result in a ton of warping. Again see this attempt at doing just that on the 3DO, which renders similarly to the Saturn:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ytaHm7ABk

Look at around 6:30 when he turns on the polygon rendering engine. The doors really look bad with all that warping. I'd imagine that's close to what this fabled beta version of Doom looked like, if not worse.


The Saturn version should have been a lot better, I would have rathered a Saturn version running so much better (even if we need to take 60 fps with a pinch of salt) with a little warping.

I'd say take the whole account of how this fabled beta looked and ran with a massive dose of salt.



In an age of #Benice and it in the news. It's so sick for you to even bring it up. And for what? Disagreement over games...

Take the time to read posts and understand what's being said then. Do you have any idea how exhausting it can be debating with you when myself and others have to keep repeating ourselves because you don't take the time to read something properly and jump to the wrong conclusions or put words in our mouths?


It's a shame the development tools are all for archaic hardware. It'd be fun to give this notorious DSP and the mischievous SH2 siblings a go in old-fashioned low level code.

Hop on the SegaXtreme discord. There's plenty of people there who can help you get started if you want to tinker around.

zyrobs
03-06-2020, 11:43 PM
Can you people behave. Wishing death for something as silly as TEXTURE WARPING IN DOOM is nonsense.

True, that was a bit over the line. Clearly it's not the right way to deal with the situation. I apologize.

I mean, he can still type and post here even with his breath held.

stu
03-07-2020, 12:56 AM
Can we wish that TA's internet connection gets turned off for a undetermined period of time instead? :rofl:

gamevet
03-07-2020, 01:56 AM
Can you people behave. Wishing death for something as silly as TEXTURE WARPING IN DOOM is nonsense.

You gotta admit, that was funny!

waterclaws6
03-07-2020, 05:00 AM
Some people are really trying too hard with that edge.

Too much edge can give oneself a very unsightly cut

Team Andromeda
03-07-2020, 11:14 AM
TA, could you please stop breathing?

Not even for too long, just maybe 15 minutes or so.

Deal, as long as you stop pretending to be a Saturn fan :daze:

Team Andromeda
03-07-2020, 11:28 AM
It was definitely the process on the Jaguar. The Jaguar version is still using software rendering on the RISC CPUs. And just to put this to bed, here is proof that Doom on Saturn is using VDP1 to draw the walls, and that VDP1 is infact the choke point:

Doom With VDP1 disabled, VDP2 enabled:
https://i.imgur.com/VphLles.png

VDP2 disabled, VDP1 enabled:
https://i.imgur.com/WtN0d6z.png

So there you have it, Doom on Saturn IS using VDP1 to draw almost everything. Hexen runs better because it does the opposite. VDP1 draws very little, and VDP2 draws the bulk of it.



Warping is an issue on the Saturn too, it just happens a little differently. It happens more when polygons get closer to the edges of the screen.



Because those games do a ton of subdividing to try and hide it. And they target 30fps but usually have dips below that. They're not doing 60fps. The only way you'd be getting 60fps in an FPS would be if you were using huge quads to lower the number of quads being used, and that would result in a ton of warping. Again see this attempt at doing just that on the 3DO, which renders similarly to the Saturn:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ytaHm7ABk

Look at around 6:30 when he turns on the polygon rendering engine. The doors really look bad with all that warping. I'd imagine that's close to what this fabled beta version of Doom looked like, if not worse.



I'd say take the whole account of how this fabled beta looked and ran with a massive dose of salt.



Take the time to read posts and understand what's being said then. Do you have any idea how exhausting it can be debating with you when myself and others have to keep repeating ourselves because you don't take the time to read something properly and jump to the wrong conclusions or put words in our mouths?



Hop on the SegaXtreme discord. There's plenty of people there who can help you get started if you want to tinker around.

Almost all Saturn games will have to use the VDP 1 to get the imagine on the screen..I agree to take the 60 Hz with a pinch of salt (was it at all times or in section) but the fact that John even acknowledge he might have been wrong , allows the possibility of Jim thinking was the the right approach.

All I know is the Doom game we got onthe Saturn was crap

Ok, I know of Polygon folding was a issue for the Saturn too
.but really , was it that bad In Exhumed, Deadlus or even something like Space Hulk on the Saturn?

Also I don't look to make fun or belittle anything to with someone ones mental health. Make fun of my spelling, crap English, silly facts, but leave the other stuff for the sickos on Twitter, where it belongs...

Mega Drive Bowlsey
03-07-2020, 03:55 PM
So having got the game and played through the first 9 levels on a high difficulty, I can report the following bits of useless information: Doom on the Saturn is basically Doom on the PS1 in slow motion. Being an old Doom pro I'm still having a blast with it, but only because I went into it with very low expectations. The picture is sharp, thanks to my CRT TV and scart cable, and the soundtrack, identical to the PS1 game, is superb and very atmospheric. The big negative is obviously the obscenely low frame rate. The highlight for me is the controls. Saturn Doom plays very nicely with the Saturn controller and, if you can overlook the fucked frame rate, there is some good old school Doom fun to be had...sort of. Also I got my Saturn copy of Doom in mint condition for less than £20! Honestly, my copy looks like it has never been opened and played, so there is that bonus too.

To balance the fact that the Saturn got a botched version of Doom, I would just like to point out to FPS fans that Space Hulk (the EA produced FPS based on the Games Workshop board game) got a superior version on the Saturn when compared to the PS1 port. Having played Space Hulk on the PS1 as a teen for many an hour, I can confirm that the Saturn port runs faster, and has improved music and sound effects not on the PS1 port. So there you go, swings and roundabouts. Every cloud... Plus Space Hulk is a lot scarier than Doom, if you ask me. ;)

TrekkiesUnite118
03-07-2020, 07:37 PM
Almost all Saturn games will have to use the VDP 1 to get the imagine on the screen.

Not really. You could skip VDP1 and have VDP2 draw the bulk of things like Hexen does. The point is, Doom is not only using VDP1, it's using it to draw the bulk of the scene. That there should tell you using VDP1 isn't enough, it's about how you use it. Doom on Saturn is using VDP1 in a very bad way. On PS1 it works, but on Saturn VDP1 doesn't have the fill rate to keep up and it becomes the choke point.

Now doing something like what Lobotomy did could have been nice. However, seeing has how he said he had it running at 60fps tells me he probably didn't do the extra things Lobotomy did to keep the texture warping down, which is probably why Carmack axed it.





Ok, I know of Polygon folding was a issue for the Saturn too
.but really , was it that bad In Exhumed, Deadlus or even something like Space Hulk on the Saturn?

Because again those games make sacrifices to hide it. They subdivide the polygons to reduce the issue as things get closer to the camera. That also increases the polygon counts which in effect reduces frame rate. Those games target 30fps and in many cases are dipping below it.



Also I don't look to make fun or belittle anything to with someone ones mental health. Make fun of my spelling, crap English, silly facts, but leave the other stuff for the sickos on Twitter, where it belongs...

If saying mean things about your reading comprehension is what it takes to get through to you then I'll do it. Instead of getting upset, take it as message to make a change for the better. From now on take the time to properly read things before responding, if you don't understand something ask for clarification. But if you continue to just reply quickly without reading or understanding half the post, then don't get mad when we start getting annoyed with you.

Team Andromeda
03-08-2020, 03:23 PM
The point is, Doom is not only using VDP1, it's using it to draw the bulk of the scene. That there should tell you using VDP1 isn't enough, it's about how you use it. Doom on Saturn is using VDP1 in a very bad way. On PS1 it works, but on Saturn VDP1 doesn't have the fill rate to keep up and it becomes the choke point.
.

Yes, but only after John put a stop to using the Saturn custom GFX hardware, that wasn't the original plan.


Because again those games make sacrifices to hide it
.

Like what? I don't see Exhumed has a lesser game or one that suffers from folding on the Saturn. Same for Space Hulk on the Saturn and that was from a engine based around 3DO quads.


Instead of getting upset,

I don't get upset I'm quite used to your insults. But beltlining Mental Health is not something thats nice on a gaming forum. You have got facts wrong yourself

TrekkiesUnite118
03-08-2020, 03:58 PM
Yes, but only after John put a stop to using the Saturn custom GFX hardware, that wasn't the original plan.

What do you think VDP1 is? It's the Saturn's custom GFX hardware.


Like what? I don't see Exhumed has a lesser game or one that suffers from folding on the Saturn. Same for Space Hulk on the Saturn and that was from a engine based around 3DO quads.

I've stated this multiple times. If you had read more than the snippet you quoted you'd see I said exactly what sacrifices games like Exhumed made. But here, I highlighted the important part for you:





Because again those games make sacrifices to hide it. They subdivide the polygons to reduce the issue as things get closer to the camera. That also increases the polygon counts which in effect reduces frame rate. Those games target 30fps and in many cases are dipping below it.


As for Space Hulk, it moves the camera in very specific predefined movements. So it can more easily avoid that issue as well.




I don't get upset I'm quite used to your insults. But beltlining Mental Health is not something thats nice on a gaming forum. You have got facts wrong yourself

You clearly are upset because you once again stopped reading and didn't get the take away from what I was saying. Once again I'll highlight it for you:





If saying mean things about your reading comprehension is what it takes to get through to you then I'll do it. Instead of getting upset, take it as message to make a change for the better. From now on take the time to properly read things before responding, if you don't understand something ask for clarification. But if you continue to just reply quickly without reading or understanding half the post, then don't get mad when we start getting annoyed with you.



Seriously, work on your reading skills. This has been going on for years with you and I for one am sick and tired of it.

sull56ivan2010
03-08-2020, 07:20 PM
Game's probably more playable than the 3DO version, but not by much.

StuOhQ
03-09-2020, 06:43 AM
According to some of what I've read, Carmack kept interfering with the development, not allowing the port to be a partial remake tuned to the Saturn's strengths.

That's too bad, if true. Lobotomy Software proved what the Saturn was capable of when given an individualized effort!

Gryson
03-09-2020, 10:06 AM
Probably worth reading the thread...

Simplified summary:

-id hires Jim Bagley (Rage Software) to port Doom to the Saturn.
-Bagley creates a prototype that uses polygons but has affine texture warping (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyYEGdGwnFs).
-Carmack tells Bagley he hates affine texture warping and to avoid polygons in favor of perspective-correct texture mapping like the original Doom.
-Bagley either doesn't have enough time or skill to do the job well and ends up using the Saturn's VDP1 in a way that is inefficient.
-Hexen on the Saturn is an example of how Doom could have been done better.

Please correct me if I got anything wrong.

Black_Tiger
03-09-2020, 11:49 AM
Probably worth reading the thread...

Simplified summary:

-id hires Jim Bagley (Rage Software) to port Doom to the Saturn.
-Bagley creates a prototype that uses polygons but has lots of affine texture warping (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyYEGdGwnFs).
-Carmack tells Bagley he hates affine texture warping and to avoid polygons in favor of perspective-correct texture mapping like the original Doom.
-Bagley either doesn't have enough time or skill to do the job well and ends up using the Saturn's VDP1 in a way that is inefficient.
-Hexen on the Saturn is an example of how Doom could have been done better.

Please correct me if I got anything wrong.

How do we know there was "a lot" of affine texture warping?

We still have never seen that version and it's not usually a problem on Saturn, especially in 1st person games and compared to typical Playstation games. Shining the Holy Ark looks like a Nintendo 64 ram pak game.

Gryson
03-09-2020, 11:59 AM
How do we know there was "a lot" of affine texture warping?

We still have never seen that version and it's not usually a problem on Saturn, especially in 1st person games and compared to typical Playstation games. Shining the Holy Ark looks like a Nintendo 64 ram pak game.

Good point. I assume it was at least noticeable to Carmack's eyes, but I'm not sure that means much to us normal people.

Silanda
03-09-2020, 12:16 PM
How do we know there was "a lot" of affine texture warping?

We still have never seen that version and it's not usually a problem on Saturn, especially in 1st person games and compared to typical Playstation games. Shining the Holy Ark looks like a Nintendo 64 ram pak game.

I think it's a fair assumption to make that it had noticeable warping for reasons already mentioned. There were very few (any?) 60fps first person shooters on the Saturn, and the smoothest ones tended to have corners cut somewhere. Simple level designs, for example, or as in the example you give, very short draw distances. Doom doesn't have the most complicated level designs but they're not particularly simple either, and short draw distances would have ruined the game. Given that, if the Doom port was 60fps it was likely using larger quads with less subdivision (or other techniques) in order to reduce workload. Larger quads = more warping when viewed at an angle.

No, the Saturn doesn't typically suffer from the same amount of warping as the PS1 due to not having to split square textures into triangles, but it's not free from it either. Duke Nukem 3D, for example, is held as being a very good port, but it runs at under 30fps a lot of the time and it has quite severe warping at points.

StuOhQ
03-09-2020, 09:12 PM
Probably worth reading the thread...

Simplified summary:

-id hires Jim Bagley (Rage Software) to port Doom to the Saturn.
-Bagley creates a prototype that uses polygons but has affine texture warping (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyYEGdGwnFs).
-Carmack tells Bagley he hates affine texture warping and to avoid polygons in favor of perspective-correct texture mapping like the original Doom.
-Bagley either doesn't have enough time or skill to do the job well and ends up using the Saturn's VDP1 in a way that is inefficient.
-Hexen on the Saturn is an example of how Doom could have been done better.

Please correct me if I got anything wrong.

I enjoyed Hexen on the N64. How does the Saturn version compare?

Team Andromeda
03-10-2020, 05:40 AM
What do you think VDP1 is? It's the Saturn's custom GFX hardware.



I've stated this multiple times. If you had read more than the snippet you quoted you'd see I said exactly what sacrifices games like Exhumed made. But here, I highlighted the important part for you:





As for Space Hulk, it moves the camera in very specific predefined movements. So it can more easily avoid that issue as well.






Seriously, work on your reading skills. This has been going on for years with you and I for one am sick and tired of it.

Darkon warned me years ago what a nasty piece of work, you really are ..I really should have heeded his advice, but I will now .

Team Andromeda
03-10-2020, 05:48 AM
I think it's a fair assumption to make that it had noticeable warping for reasons already mentioned. There were very few (any?) 60fps first person shooters on the Saturn, and the smoothest ones tended to have corners cut somewhere. Simple level designs, for example, or as in the example you give, very short draw distances. Doom doesn't have the most complicated level designs but they're not particularly simple either, and short draw distances would have ruined the game. Given that, if the Doom port was 60fps it was likely using larger quads with less subdivision (or other techniques) in order to reduce workload. Larger quads = more warping when viewed at an angle.

No, the Saturn doesn't typically suffer from the same amount of warping as the PS1 due to not having to split square textures into triangles, but it's not free from it either. Duke Nukem 3D, for example, is held as being a very good port, but it runs at under 30fps a lot of the time and it has quite severe warping at points.

Works both ways and Duke was a different game to Doom with bigger environments and floors on top of floors . I don't really remember anyone saying the PS verison looked better thanks to less warping, In the same way I didn't see anyone saying the Saturn version of Alien Trilogy was looked better thanks to less warping. Duke on the PS also has issues with the Frame rate .

There's far more warping in Exhumed on the PS , but still not enough to hurt the game or distract the player and TBH I can't remember warping being a factor in Saturn Quake .

I would have put up with Warping if it meant a much better frame rate and a game that looked and moved better than the PS one

Silanda
03-10-2020, 08:49 AM
I enjoyed Hexen on the N64. How does the Saturn version compare?

Looks sharper (whether that's an improvement or not is a matter of personal taste), runs considerably worse, only has front facing sprites for the enemies.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-10-2020, 10:01 AM
Works both ways and Duke was a different game to Doom with bigger environments and floors on top of floors . I don't really remember anyone saying the PS verison looked better thanks to less warping, In the same way I didn't see anyone saying the Saturn version of Alien Trilogy was looked better thanks to less warping. Duke on the PS also has issues with the Frame rate .

There's far more warping in Exhumed on the PS , but still not enough to hurt the game or distract the player and TBH I can't remember warping being a factor in Saturn Quake .

I would have put up with Warping if it meant a much better frame rate and a game that looked and moved better than the PS one

He just explained to you the same thing I explained to you. If Doom was running at 60fps on the Saturn the only way that could be possible is if it was using large quads and not subdividing them. That would lead to very bad texture warping. Almost all the games you've mentioned (Exhumed, Duke 3D, Quake, etc.) avoid the issue by subdividing the quads to make them smaller as the camera gets closer to them to avoid the issue. If you would actually take the time to read and understand posts you would have picked up on this a few pages ago.


Darkon warned me years ago what a nasty piece of work, you really are ..I really should have heeded his advice, but I will now .

If you'd just work on your reading skills a bit, 90% of the problems you run into on this forum could be avoided. Also I'm puzzled about Darkon warning you about me considering I've never really interacted with him on these forums. Did you perhaps mean Drakon?

Wesker
03-10-2020, 03:22 PM
Looks sharper (whether that's an improvement or not is a matter of personal taste), runs considerably worse, only has front facing sprites for the enemies.

Some messages before I asked if this was a factor for the game to run better than Doom for the Sega Saturn or not, or just plain coding differences. I suppose if they discarded the full animation sprites for the enemies in Hexen for the Sega Saturn (the PlayStation version is also that way) was for a reason. I wonder how the game would run if they are restored. In fact, the game behaviour is still thinking the animations are there, since some enemies can still be found dormant like in the original game because of their positioning not looking at you, even if they visually seem like they are. This was corrected in the 32X and SNES versions of Doom so the enemies are always looking at you, and therefore they always detect you on sight, no matter how they were positioned in the original game.

Silanda
03-10-2020, 04:39 PM
Some messages before I asked if this was a factor for the game to run better than Doom for the Sega Saturn or not, or just plain coding differences. I suppose if they discarded the full animation sprites for the enemies in Hexen for the Sega Saturn (the PlayStation version is also that way) was for a reason. I wonder how the game would run if they are restored. In fact, the game behaviour is still thinking the animations are there, since some enemies can still be found dormant like in the original game because of their positioning not looking at you, even if they visually seem like they are. This was corrected in the 32X and SNES versions of Doom so the enemies are always looking at you, and therefore they always detect you on sight, no matter how they were positioned in the original game.

I'm not really qualified to say, but assuming no other limitations I wouldn't have thought there would be much performance impact if all the sprites were there. I doubt that the code to determine which sprite to display would be very taxing. I suspect RAM might be a problem though, as running out of memory is a plausible explanation for why they were cut in the first place.

StuOhQ
03-10-2020, 05:18 PM
I'm not really qualified to say, but assuming no other limitations I wouldn't have thought there would be much performance impact if all the sprites were there. I doubt that the code to determine which sprite to display would be very taxing. I suspect RAM might be a problem though, as running out of memory is a plausible explanation for why they were cut in the first place.

Does the Saturn Doom port use either of the RAM expansions?

Silanda
03-10-2020, 06:02 PM
Does the Saturn Doom port use either of the RAM expansions?

No. I think the only Saturn game released outside of Japan with RAM cart support was Marvel Super Heroes.

zyrobs
03-11-2020, 01:23 AM
Using the RAM cart may not make things easier since accessing the cart is pretty slow. Loading animation frames in real-time would make things much slower, it's why Marvel Super Heroes was damn near unplayable with the RAM cart. You need to micromanage the shit out of it to keep the framerate up.

Wesker
03-11-2020, 09:17 AM
I'm not really qualified to say, but assuming no other limitations I wouldn't have thought there would be much performance impact if all the sprites were there. I doubt that the code to determine which sprite to display would be very taxing. I suspect RAM might be a problem though, as running out of memory is a plausible explanation for why they were cut in the first place.

Yeah. Another downgraded aspect of Hexen for both the Sega Saturn and PlayStation is simplified geometry level, similar to what happened to Doom for the Jaguar and all versions based on it. Hexen for the Nintendo 64, on the other hand, features the same geometry of the original PC version. But I don't find that limitation so jarring as having all the enemies with only the front facing sprites. Start the first level and you'll see all the enemies apparently looking at you but they aren't, since they are still behaving like the PC version (that is, their placement is actually facing other direction). Odd to say the least.

I also did some tests with the link cable multiplayer feature of the Sega Saturn version, which was sadly left unfinished, and it's very weird to see the other player moving with only the front facing sprites. That is, until the multiplayer game flow eventually breaks, which unfortunately doesn't take much time.

Moirai
03-30-2020, 02:35 PM
So saturn doom was crippled purposely because John didnt want it to look better than his precious PC version.

cunt.

Gryson
03-30-2020, 04:45 PM
So saturn doom was crippled purposely because John didnt want it to look better than his precious PC version.

cunt.

No, it was crippled because the guy they hired to do it couldn't get the job done the way they wanted.

gamevet
03-31-2020, 12:38 AM
John didn't like the texture warping.

Black_Tiger
03-31-2020, 11:06 AM
John didn't like the texture warping.

John didn't allow texture warping in this particular console port.

Silanda
03-31-2020, 11:13 AM
John didn't allow texture warping in this particular console port.

He didn't allow it in any port that he had input into. Development of the Playstation version's engine was restarted for this very reason.

Black_Tiger
03-31-2020, 12:04 PM
He didn't allow it in any port that he had input into. Development of the Playstation version's engine was restarted for this very reason.

It was allowed in Quake for Saturn and Quake II for Playstation. I guess he was no longer meddling in ports by then.

Silanda
03-31-2020, 12:57 PM
It was allowed in Quake for Saturn and Quake II for Playstation. I guess he was no longer meddling in ports by then.

For Quake it was probably the choice of allow it and take the money or lose out. Perspective correction on that hardware and a more advanced engine was never really going to be a possibility. Another factor might have been Todd Hollenshead joining as CEO of id in '96. AFAIK he wasn't credited for the Saturn version of Doom, but he was in later games.

Blades
04-01-2020, 09:26 AM
It was allowed in Quake for Saturn and Quake II for Playstation. I guess he was no longer meddling in ports by then.

The difference is that Quake had an order of magnitude more complex 3D geometry than Doom. Any warping was hidden by the numerous polygons, that were subdivided into even more quads to combat this very issue by Lobotomy.

Team Andromeda
04-01-2020, 12:14 PM
The difference is that Quake had an order of magnitude more complex 3D geometry than Doom. Any warping was hidden by the numerous polygons, that were subdivided into even more quads to combat this very issue by Lobotomy.

Saturn Exhumed or Alien Trilogy never has as much warping as the PS versions (You see way more in Exhumed). In fact, I saw far more polygon warping in Metal Head on the 32X than in any Saturn FPS TBH. It just seemed John made too much of an issue over a problem that wasn't so apprant in Saturn FPS games.

Black_Tiger
04-01-2020, 12:34 PM
The difference is that Quake had an order of magnitude more complex 3D geometry than Doom. Any warping was hidden by the numerous polygons, that were subdivided into even more quads to combat this very issue by Lobotomy.

Again, people are speculating what it might have looked like. If that 60fps engine was rebalanced to use more quads and run at 30fps it might have looked much better. We'll never know what we're really talking about though unless it ond day gets leaked.

Team Andromeda
04-01-2020, 12:39 PM
Again, people are speculating what it might have looked like. If that 60fps engine was rebalanced to use more quads and run at 30fps it might have looked much better. We'll never know what we're really talking about though unless it ond day gets leaked.

Who knows about the 60 fps, maybe it was looking at the SKY. Really though, if you look at Exhumed or even Alien. though games run great and used the mixture of polygons and sprites and had little warping issues. That looked the way Doom should have gone.

zyrobs
04-01-2020, 12:39 PM
It was allowed in Quake for Saturn and Quake II for Playstation. I guess he was no longer meddling in ports by then.

It's worth noting that both of those games were amongst the most impressive 3d titles on each system.

Blades
04-01-2020, 04:55 PM
Saturn Exhumed or Alien Trilogy never has as much warping as the PS versions (You see way more in Exhumed). In fact, I saw far more polygon warping in Metal Head on the 32X than in any Saturn FPS TBH. It just seemed John made too much of an issue over a problem that wasn't so apprant in Saturn FPS games.

Exhumed and anything on 32X wasn't drawing anything in hardware, so the warping or lack thereof was completely dependent on the engine the developers coded. Doom 32X didn't have any warping.

Trekkies posted an example of what the Doom engine would look like without perspective corrected polygons a few pages back and it looked awful.

Given the circumstances, John was right!

zyrobs
04-01-2020, 05:39 PM
Exhumed does do hardware drawing and has its share of distortions, from what I remember.

Black_Tiger
04-01-2020, 06:46 PM
Trekkies posted an example of what the Doom engine would look like without perspective corrected polygons a few pages back and it looked awful.

Given the circumstances, John was right!

Lol, I just watched that clip and it doesn't look bad at all for a 32-bit 3D game and isn't as jittery or distorted as most Playstation games.

Check out this awful looking game which is even worse. If most scenes are too dark, take a look at 2:05:55 and 2:27:55



https://youtu.be/RGRrkczdEVg

Blades
04-01-2020, 09:45 PM
Exhumed does do hardware drawing and has its share of distortions, from what I remember.

Whoops, you’re right, I confused Exhumed with Hexen. Of course Powerslave used hardware.


Check out this awful looking game which is even worse.

That is worse.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-01-2020, 10:44 PM
Lol, I just watched that clip and it doesn't look bad at all for a 32-bit 3D game and isn't as jittery or distorted as most Playstation games.

Check out this awful looking game which is even worse. If most scenes are too dark, take a look at 2:05:55 and 2:27:55



https://youtu.be/RGRrkczdEVg

Go look at it again when he actually turns the Polygon rendering on at the 6:30 mark:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ytaHm7ABk

The door goes nuts when he gets close to it. If Carmack was given something that looked like that then I wouldn't blame him for axing it. You guys need to stop demonizing Carmack over this. He probably didn't care with Quake because Quake is doing heavy subdividing to keep the texture warping down to a minimum, and considering the Hardware Carmack and others probably figured that's as good as they can get.

Now put yourself in Carmacks shoes for Doom on the Saturn. You've made this great FPS engine that runs decently on a 33MHz 486. Not only that you've successfully ported it to the PS1, the Jaguar, and even the 32X that uses the same dual SH-2 CPU set up as the Saturn. All of which still used software renderer to do the bulk of the work and still ran at good playable speeds. Now you get this demo of Saturn Doom that's running at high speed, but it's using polygons and has texture warping all over the place. Considering that you know the software renderer can run on a dual SH-2 set up that's clocked 5MHz slower than the one in the Saturn what are you going to do? You're going to tell the guy to go back and use the software render because you know it can can run at a playable speed on the Saturn's CPUs and that it will look better as it will have no texture warping.

The software renderer isn't the problem with Saturn Doom. The Saturn should be able to handle that no problem considering the 32X handles it just fine. The issue is that instead of drawing the lines in a way that's optimal for the Saturn, it instead does it in a very suboptimal way. They're drawn as VDP1 single pixel high sprites with a ton of user clipping commands. That slows things down to a crawl and VDP1 becomes the bottleneck, not the CPUs:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/540356852773552135/670595759200141327/unknown.png

Team Andromeda
04-02-2020, 04:38 AM
Exhumed and anything on 32X wasn't drawing anything in hardware, so the warping or lack thereof was completely dependent on the engine the developers coded. Doom 32X didn't have any warping.


Exhumed was making use of the VDP1 and there is quite a bit of warping in the PS1 version. One can see slight polygon folding in Alien Trilogy on the Saturn ,but it's tiny and nothing like as bad as the PS version. Tbh I saw more polygon folding on the pitch in Fifa 96 on the Saturn, than in any FPS on the Saturn.

I would have rather saw Rage allowed to go the route of Exhumed on the Saturn myself.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-02-2020, 10:18 AM
Exhumed was making use of the VDP1 and there is quite a bit of warping in the PS1 version. One can see slight polygon folding in Alien Trilogy on the Saturn ,but it's tiny and nothing like as bad as the PS version. Tbh I saw more polygon folding on the pitch in Fifa 96 on the Saturn, than in any FPS on the Saturn.

I would have rather saw Rage allowed to go the route of Exhumed on the Saturn myself.

Let's use some simple logic here:


Exhumed runs on Lobotomy's Slave Driver Engine and uses polygons. It minimizes texture warping by subdividing polygons, thus it targets 30fps but regularly dips below that.
Quake on Saturn runs in the same Slave Driver Engine as Exhumed.
id Software and Carmack approved Saturn Quake even with it's minimal texture warping.



Conclusion: Carmack would not have had an issue with Doom using polygons if it was using the same approach as Exhumed or Quake.


But we all know Carmack didn't approve Doom running using quads to draw everything due to texture warping. So that tells us the texture warping had to be far worse than what we see in any of Lobotomy's games. Since it was supposedly running at 60fps, that means it had to be using huge quads which would have pretty bad texture warping. Again look at that 3DO video when he turns on polygon rendering. Look at how the Door behaves when he gets close to it. That's probably pretty close to what Carmack was seeing in this early polygon rendered version of Saturn Doom.

Basically quit bringing up Lobotomy's games here. It's very likely that this unreleased version of Saturn Doom had no where near the level of effort put into it to reduce texture warping as those games had.

Team Andromeda
04-02-2020, 12:08 PM
Lol, I just watched that clip and it doesn't look bad at all for a 32-bit 3D game and isn't as jittery or distorted as most Playstation games.

Check out this awful looking game which is even worse. If most scenes are too dark, take a look at 2:05:55 and 2:27:55



https://youtu.be/RGRrkczdEVg

And that's held up as one of the best looking PS games of all time. Wasn't it meant to push the PS 115% LOL? There was a ton of polygons folding in Ridge Racer not that any PS fan cared, because the graphics were so good. Such a shame, when maybe the Saturn could have had the best console version of Doom.

I see to remake in one of Lobotomy 1st ever interviews Ezra saying a full 3D engine was the best match for Saturn Hardware, compared to a Strip one like Doom and that's what Jim was looking to do with the Saturn port of Doom. Nice one John ...

TrekkiesUnite118
04-02-2020, 08:45 PM
I see to remake in one of Lobotomy 1st ever interviews Ezra saying a full 3D engine was the best match for Saturn Hardware, compared to a Strip one like Doom and that's what Jim was looking to do with the Saturn port of Doom. Nice one John ...

Yet the 32X handles that strip engine just fine:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9kHWnRDtEE

Blame John all you want, but he knew the dual SH-2 set up could handle Doom's software renderer, after all he got it running on that set up years prior. The CPU is not the choke point for Saturn Doom. It's how Jim stupidly tried to have VDP1 draw everything as single pixel high sprites with a shit ton of user clipping commands. That is a truly awful way to use VDP1 and it's going to slow everything down as it's inefficient.

axel
04-02-2020, 11:41 PM
Yeah the Saturn CPUs should have been more than up to the task, the game runs fine on a 486 with half the MIPS. I don't quite understand the comments about VDP1. Couldn't you just use it as a blitter? Or is there some bandwidth issue? Or how about rendering the entire screen into one VDP2 bitmap layer and then using VDP1 for enemy sprites and projectiles?

TrekkiesUnite118
04-03-2020, 01:09 AM
Yeah the Saturn CPUs should have been more than up to the task, the game runs fine on a 486 with half the MIPS. I don't quite understand the comments about VDP1. Couldn't you just use it as a blitter? Or is there some bandwidth issue?

VDP1's fillrate is quite low. Having it try to fill the entire screen with sprites typically isn't a good idea.



Or how about rendering the entire screen into one VDP2 bitmap layer and then using VDP1 for enemy sprites and projectiles?

That's pretty much exactly what Hexen on Saturn does and it runs much better because of it.

Team Andromeda
04-03-2020, 04:49 AM
Yeah the Saturn CPUs should have been more than up to the task, the game runs fine on a 486 with half the MIPS. I don't quite understand the comments about VDP1. Couldn't you just use it as a blitter? Or is there some bandwidth issue? Or how about rendering the entire screen into one VDP2 bitmap layer and then using VDP1 for enemy sprites and projectiles?

On my mates father work PC which was a 33Mz 486 at the time . Doom run good, but in a window. On his monitor one could stretch the screen it wasn't an issue. Like I said before I don't know why Rage didn't look to make the Saturn version run in a Window . Maybe Jim and the gang were pissed off,didn't have much time for the recode or John demanded it needed to run in full screen.

FPS Saturn games that used the VDP1 to handle a mixture of sprites and Polygons , never had much issues over warping and moved at ok frame rate as the likes of Exhumed, Deadlus, Alien Trilogy showed, even crap like Congo and while they're not quite the same, warping wasn't an issue for Gundam or Gun Griffion on the Saturn .

More to this point , I can think none back in this day who didn't buy a PS or its games due to warping,most saw it and put up with it and didn't really care, just as long as the game looked good. Do fans of Alien Trilogy Say that Saturn version looks the best due too less warping

Shame really both the PS and Saturn versions of Doom could have been able to be so much better

TrekkiesUnite118
04-03-2020, 10:12 AM
On my mates father work PC which was a 33Mz 486 at the time . Doom run good, but in a window. On his monitor one could stretch the screen it wasn't an issue. Like I said before I don't know why Rage didn't look to make the Saturn version run in a Window . Maybe Jim and the gang were pissed off,didn't have much time for the recode or John demanded it needed to run in full screen.

Saturn should have been able to handle Doom's software renderer. Afterall the Jaguar and 32X handled it fine. Jaguar was even full screen, though at 20fps. Considering the Saturn is more powerful than the Jagaur it should have been able to get similar or better results. Here's a video of Rebecca Heineman discussing how she ported Doom to the 3DO. Which before you bring up that ports performance issues, the video makes it clear it wasn't her fault, she did the best she could with what she was given.

That said, she mentions that Carmack gave her the source to the Jaguar version, and she initially got that running on the 3DO at ~3fps, and then after optimizing got it to 10fps using software rendering. She then started adding in using the 3DO hardware to draw part of the scene to get better performance. The Key take away though is that she confirms that yes Jaguar Doom used software rendering:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBbIil2HPSU



FPS Saturn games that used the VDP1 to handle a mixture of sprites and Polygons , never had much issues over warping and moved at ok frame rate as the likes of Exhumed, Deadlus, Alien Trilogy showed, even crap like Congo

Those all do have warping, you're just choosing to ignore it so you can stay pissed at John Carmack. Even then we've extablished that the warping in this fabled version of Doom must have been worse than those games since Carmack approved Saturn Quake running in the same engine. Hell even PS1 Doom has minor texture warping and Carmack helped work on that one.

And once again, Saturn Doom IS using VDP1 to draw walls, floors, etc as polygons. They're being drawn as 1 pixel high sprites making a series of strips that make up the image. Then there's a ton of user clip commands used to mask off parts. This is pretty much exactly what PS1 Doom does, but it's GPU has the fill rate to handle that, where as Saturn's VDP1 doesn't.


warping wasn't an issue for Gundam or Gun Griffion on the Saturn .

Because those games are just flat VDP2 planes with some sprites and objects drawn overtop.



Shame really both the PS and Saturn versions of Doom could have been able to be so much better

The PS1 version runs at a pretty solid 30fps with tons of transparencies and colored lighting. I don't see it getting much better than that considering the original PC version caps at 35fps due to it being designed around 70Hz monitors.

turboxray
04-03-2020, 10:16 AM
On my mates father work PC which was a 33Mz 486 at the time . Doom run good, but in a window. On his monitor one could stretch the screen it wasn't an issue.

SX or DX? VLB or ISA video card? How fast was the vram? Was main ram wait states set to 0? Simply saying 33mhz 486 doesn't mean much. I had built a custom pimp'd out 33mhz 486 that ran the game just fine full screen and fast.

Team Andromeda
04-03-2020, 11:54 AM
SX or DX? VLB or ISA video card? How fast was the vram? Was main ram wait states set to 0? Simply saying 33mhz 486 doesn't mean much. I had built a custom pimp'd out 33mhz 486 that ran the game just fine full screen and fast.

Christ mate, we're taking 94 here and a mates dad PC. I can't remember the exact spec's other than it was 33Mz and a 486. The only other thing I can remember about my mates Dad work PC was it played AITD fine but needed a new video card fited to play The 11th Hour.

My Uncle's PC was much better, but he didn't like Doom, but was all for Star Wars Dark Forces, which run like a dream and IMO was a far better game too

Black_Tiger
04-03-2020, 12:07 PM
Those all do have warping, you're just choosing to ignore it so you can stay pissed at John Carmack.

Even then we've extablished that the warping in this fabled version of Doom must have been worse than those games since Carmack approved Saturn Quake running in the same engine.

You're also fixated on misinterpreting a single quote as an absolute, while also ignoring Carmack's admission that he was wrong... just so you can stay pissed at a guy for being right.

The logic that because "he approved" a port proves it met a minimum level of quality is silly in itself. But Doom for SNES also got greenlit based on a homebrew hack of a Starfox cart.

So it ran even worse than the final product which proved that id would license a port to absolutely anything, even when they could be certain it would look/run terrible.



Hell even PS1 Doom has minor texture warping and Carmack helped work on that one.

Again, you're contradicting yourself about what "must" have been the case and proving that Carmack (by his own admission) is indeed fallible.

turboxray
04-03-2020, 12:49 PM
Christ mate, we're taking 94 here and a mates dad PC. I can't remember the exact spec's other than it was 33Mz and a 486. The only other thing I can remember about my mates Dad work PC was it played AITD fine but needed a new video card fited to play The 11th Hour.

My Uncle's PC was much better, but he didn't like Doom, but was all for Star Wars Dark Forces, which run like a dream and IMO was a far better game too

And that's my whole point; a PC is more than just its processor. And the processor type also matters; 486 'SX' chips are missing the math co-processor, while all DX chips have it. Say '486 PC' means nothing.

I built an AMD 386DX 40mhz w/VLB video card for a friend that could run the same almost full screen at a fast enough frame rate. All 486DX systems that I built had no problem running it full screen and fast. Friends with 'AST', PackerBells, etc.. ram the game for crap even on 486Dx2 50/66mhz systems.

Just putting things in context, it all.

Team Andromeda
04-03-2020, 12:52 PM
And that's my whole point; a PC is more than just its processor. And the processor type also matters; 486 'SX' chips are missing the math co-processor, while all DX chips have it. Say '486 PC' means nothing.


Correct, If only John remembered that, while trying to tell the console programmers to make a console game run like it would on the PC. Btw if you must know my Uncles PC at the time ran at 75 Mhz :) and TFX Euro figher looked amazing on it

TrekkiesUnite118
04-03-2020, 06:15 PM
You're also fixated on misinterpreting a single quote as an absolute, while also ignoring Carmack's admission that he was wrong... just so you can stay pissed at a guy for being right.

And you're doing the same thing here. You're fixated on a quote from Carmack saying "I should have allowed more experimentation" as an admission of being wrong. The reality is he's saying that because it was 20 years ago and he probably barely remembers it and doesn't want to start a pissing match over something irrelevant.

None of us have seen this fabled port of Doom. All we know is that supposedly it ran at 60fps and used VDP1 quads to draw everything. Knowing how the Saturn works it's not hard to figure out that it would have had bad texture warping if it was indeed hitting this benchmark. The only way you'd hit 60fps on the Saturn having it draw a complex scene like you see in an FPS like Doom would be if it was drawing very large quads. That's going to have a ton of texture warping as you can see in the 3DO Doom videos.



The logic that because "he approved" a port proves it met a minimum level of quality is silly in itself. But Doom for SNES also got greenlit based on a homebrew hack of a Starfox cart.

The logic isn't silly at all. It establishes a baseline for us to paint a picture of what this version of Doom was probably like. You just don't want to listen to it because you're still clinging to hope that there's this amazing version of Saturn Doom out there that would have been the best ever just to try and use it to win some 20+ year old console warrior argument from the 90s. Having a convenient boogie man to blame it on like John Carmack just makes it all the better for you guys.


Again, you're contradicting yourself about what "must" have been the case and proving that Carmack (by his own admission) is indeed fallible.

No I'm not, I'm establishing a baseline of what was deemed an acceptable level of texture warping by Carmack. Which means that if he shot down this Saturn port of Doom due to texture warping then the warping had to be worse than this established baseline. Meaning it had to be worse than what we see in PS1 Doom, and Saturn Exhumed/Duke 3D/Quake.




Correct, If only John remembered that, while trying to tell the console programmers to make a console game run like it would on the PC. Btw if you must know my Uncles PC at the time ran at 75 Mhz :) and TFX Euro figher looked amazing on it

If only you would remember that John himself ported that engine to consoles 3 times already by the time this Saturn port was being done. He knew how to get it to run on those systems and how to even optimize it for the very same SH-2s in the Saturn. He had already done it before back in 1994 for the 32X.

axel
04-03-2020, 10:55 PM
And that's my whole point; a PC is more than just its processor. And the processor type also matters; 486 'SX' chips are missing the math co-processor, while all DX chips have it. Say '486 PC' means nothing.

I built an AMD 386DX 40mhz w/VLB video card for a friend that could run the same almost full screen at a fast enough frame rate. All 486DX systems that I built had no problem running it full screen and fast. Friends with 'AST', PackerBells, etc.. ram the game for crap even on 486Dx2 50/66mhz systems.

Just putting things in context, it all.

I ran DOS Doom on a variety of systems back in the day, everything from a 386 underclocked at 8 MHz (with the turbo switch) up to Pentiums with MMX. My recollection is that once you hit a 486DX2 it ran like butter full screen. The DX2s were much faster than the original 486 although on paper they don't hit higher MIPS than the Saturn. I don't remember the video card making any difference for Doom so long as it was VLB, I guess if you still had an ISA card that would be a problem.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2020, 12:38 AM
I ran DOS Doom on a variety of systems back in the day, everything from a 386 underclocked at 8 MHz (with the turbo switch) up to Pentiums with MMX. My recollection is that once you hit a 486DX2 it ran like butter full screen. The DX2s were much faster than the original 486 although on paper they don't hit higher MIPS than the Saturn. I don't remember the video card making any difference for Doom so long as it was VLB, I guess if you still had an ISA card that would be a problem.

Hell I can run it on an IBM PS2 Model 50 with the 486SLC2 upgrade:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR9kSDMnbMk

Blades
04-04-2020, 01:50 AM
Hell even PS1 Doom has minor texture warping and Carmack helped work on that

I’ve actually never seen warping in PS1 Doom.

axel
04-04-2020, 11:08 AM
Hell I can run it on an IBM PS2 Model 50 with the 486SLC2 upgrade:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR9kSDMnbMk

That's so cool you have that and that it runs Doom at an acceptable rate. Kind of like the 32X version where you have a fast CPU added to a system with some performance bottlenecks but it still manages to look decent.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2020, 12:40 PM
I’ve actually never seen warping in PS1 Doom.

It's very subtle. You only really see it on corners when you look at them just right. Digital Foundry touched on it in their Doom Port video.

turboxray
04-04-2020, 02:32 PM
I ran DOS Doom on a variety of systems back in the day, everything from a 386 underclocked at 8 MHz (with the turbo switch) up to Pentiums with MMX. My recollection is that once you hit a 486DX2 it ran like butter full screen. The DX2s were much faster than the original 486 although on paper they don't hit higher MIPS than the Saturn. I don't remember the video card making any difference for Doom so long as it was VLB, I guess if you still had an ISA card that would be a problem.

Yeah but you're comparing mips between risc and cisc chips. Plus, the devil is in the details; cache (internal and secondary cache.. yes 486 supports secondary cache, but not all motherboards came with it), amount and speed of ram/bus, specific instructions that just happen to coincide with optimization on that app/game (i.e. the under whelming z80 excels at compositing certain graphics because of its auto-incrementing register pairs). Still, it'd be interesting to see what a sh2 could do with a bottleneck free frame buffer.

VLB has a 32bit bus, while ISA was 16bit (twice the bandwidth for cpu access to video memory), but video cards themselves also had different speed vrams (as well as dual port versions), which adds wait states to the cpu accessing local mapped video ram. That's probably more of an impact on higher resolutions because the cpu is copying over more data, but it's still a factor. But from what I remember, DOOM does multiple passes to draw a frame depending on the complexity (not just for sprites) - but I don't remember if they're using off pages/banks of vga ram directly (double buffer) or uses main ram for that???


@ TrekkiesUnite118
That 486SLC2 example is running an external 16bit data bus, and internally at 50mhz, but the 16k cache vs 8k cache of 486DX/DX2 processors probably helps even that out some. Still impressive for that setup (shear internal clock speed to over come the rest of the system interface). But not quite as smooth as the 384DX-40 +VLB setup that ran with the same windows size. What graphic detail are you running?

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2020, 03:27 PM
@ TrekkiesUnite118
That 486SLC2 example is running an external 16bit data bus, and internally at 50mhz, but the 16k cache vs 8k cache of 486DX/DX2 processors probably helps even that out some. Still impressive for that setup (shear internal clock speed to over come the rest of the system interface). But not quite as smooth as the 384DX-40 +VLB setup that ran with the same windows size. What graphic detail are you running?

That was in low detail mode. Remember the 486SLC2 is just a 386SX with the 486 instructions added + 16k of cache, clock doubled up to 50MHz, and it doesn't have an FPU. You can install an i387 FPU which I have, but I don't think it makes much difference for Doom.

turboxray
04-04-2020, 04:57 PM
That was in low detail mode. Remember the 486SLC2 is just a 386SX with the 486 instructions added + 16k of cache, clock doubled up to 50MHz, and it doesn't have an FPU. You can install an i387 FPU which I have, but I don't think it makes much difference for Doom.

Yeah, I had to check but Doom doesn't use the FPU. But that clock doubled 486SLC is more than just a 386SX (the extra instructions on the 486 are for parallel processing setups - atomic instructions). It's the on-chip cache and pipelining that make it faster than the 386SX at the same speed, and the SLC having 16k over the standard 8k on base 486 chips is nice performance boost overall as well as in 16bit memory interface environment. The speed of memory and video memory really bottle necks that system.. which is why it has to run low-detail (multipass rendering). It probably really drops in frame rate in later levels. Impressive none the less haha.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2020, 05:52 PM
Yeah, I had to check but Doom doesn't use the FPU. But that clock doubled 486SLC is more than just a 386SX (the extra instructions on the 486 are for parallel processing setups - atomic instructions). It's the on-chip cache and pipelining that make it faster than the 386SX at the same speed, and the SLC having 16k over the standard 8k on base 486 chips is nice performance boost overall as well as in 16bit memory interface environment. The speed of memory and video memory really bottle necks that system.. which is why it has to run low-detail (multipass rendering). It probably really drops in frame rate in later levels. Impressive none the less haha.

Yeah, for what it is it's not bad. It's definitely playable. I would have loved to have been able to get a hold of the final upgrade board that was made for that PS/2 model which had an Intel Overdrive socket. With that I could put in a 486DX or possibly even a Pentium.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
04-23-2020, 07:17 PM
I'm happy to have generated so much discussion on this subject, even if everyone's techno talk is waaaaay over my head lol. In a nutshell I still find Saturn Doom somewhat playable...just. Doesn't stop it still being a hugely frustrating missed opportunity though.

turboxray
04-23-2020, 08:24 PM
I'm happy to have generated so much discussion on this subject, even if everyone's techno talk is waaaaay over my head lol. In a nutshell I still find Saturn Doom somewhat playable...just. Doesn't stop it still being a hugely frustrating missed opportunity though.

Now use that newly found power and motivate someone to do a new Doom port on the Saturn haha. There's gotta be someone out there capable of this that just needs a little nudge.

Barone
04-24-2020, 06:36 PM
And once again, Saturn Doom IS using VDP1 to draw walls, floors, etc as polygons. They're being drawn as 1 pixel high sprites making a series of strips that make up the image. Then there's a ton of user clip commands used to mask off parts. This is pretty much exactly what PS1 Doom does, but it's GPU has the fill rate to handle that, where as Saturn's VDP1 doesn't.

The PS1 version runs at a pretty solid 30fps with tons of transparencies and colored lighting. I don't see it getting much better than that considering the original PC version caps at 35fps due to it being designed around 70Hz monitors.
Also to keep in mind:
- PS1 version is running at 256 wide mode, which helps to save RAM and the Saturn doesn't have it.

gamevet
04-24-2020, 11:59 PM
PlayStation DOOM is awesome!

The Coop
05-10-2020, 10:18 PM
Despite how bad the framerate is, this was my main way to play Doom for years. The 32X version was fine for what it was, but it was more like Doom Lite than Doom (or perhaps Doom Light, given how bright everything is). I mean for fuck's sake, they didn't even include the BFG 9000. How the hell do you forget that?

I remember renting Saturn Doom from a Hastings store where I loved at the time, after hearing how bad the framerate was from magazines. But when I played it, the framerate didn't bother me that much. The game just made the 32X version feel so lacking by comparison, that I almost went to Walmart to cancel my layaway of Saturn Hexen so I could get Saturn Doom instead. I was talked out of it, though, and eventually got to grab Saturn Doom from that same Walmart a little while later.

I played Saturn Doom for weeks, having a blast as I did. Even though the framerate was pretty rough, Saturn Doom had so much more. Many more levels from Ultimate Doom, much of Doom II, the atmospheric lighting, more monster types, better sound (save for the busted stereo)... it had a lot more content. Sure, you had to put the sound into mono, and the framerate took a huge dive on some areas, but it was still better than the 32X version overall. Then a number of years later, Doom Collector's Edition came out for the PC around 2003, and that's when I finally got to play the original game. That meant the Saturn version got left behind, but even now, I still fire it up for shits and giggles once in a while.

eukara
05-10-2020, 10:51 PM
The PSX version always stuck out to me as oddball because I just didn't like the sound design changes.
It is perhaps an acquired taste, but it just doesn't feel right having played the PC version first. Some of the sound samples were replaced with even more common sound library ones - like that pistol sound.. I can't get over some of those.

I feel like there must have been a bunch of disappointed players that also believe devs should have just ported the game as is. I remember the Doom 3 Collector's Edition on Xbox is the first console version of Doom that saw no changes and wasn't butchered technically.
Luckily they put that into every copy of Resurrection of Evil on the same platform with coop and everything.

MegaDriver
05-12-2020, 07:02 AM
...

I played Saturn Doom for weeks, having a blast as I did. Even though the framerate was pretty rough, Saturn Doom had so much more. Many more levels from Ultimate Doom, much of Doom II, the atmospheric lighting, more monster types, better sound (save for the busted stereo)... it had a lot more content. Sure, you had to put the sound into mono...


Going a bit off-topic.

Interesting you mention that because I've noticed the same on a few Saturn titles and when I pointed out to people (not on this forum, elsewhere) usually I get no responses or nobody notices too.

From memory I think Powerslave is another case.

It's a bit disappointing given that there seems to be a bug on the game that reverts the saturn's audio settings to mono, regardless of the choice on the sound menus (the music can still be played on true stereo if playing the disc like a music cd).


It's a shame these bugs weren't corrected or raised interest to look for a possible fix.
The background music in Powerslave is absolutely stunning to listen on the Saturn in stereo.
Surely the other games would benefit from it and the playing experience would be enhanced.

Silanda
05-12-2020, 07:50 AM
Going a bit off-topic.

Interesting you mention that because I've noticed the same on a few Saturn titles and when I pointed out to people (not on this forum, elsewhere) usually I get no responses or nobody notices too.

I've noticed it with a few games too. IIRC King of Fighters '96, Advanced VG, Golden Axe - The Dual, and Night Striker S are all mono despite most having Stereo options. Night Striker might get a pass if the sound was originally mono in the arcade, but Golden Axe in particular just sounds dreadful downmixed to mono, with the background music being far too loud and distorted.

The Playstation's not immune to this problem either. Goketsuji Ichizoku 2 (Power Instinct 2) has mono and stereo options that don't seem to work.

MegaDriver
05-12-2020, 09:07 AM
I wonder if there is a way to force stereo sound setting, maybe with an action replay code?

Deckard
05-12-2020, 12:05 PM
I've never noticed mono sound on KOF 96, I should replay it

Silanda
05-12-2020, 12:15 PM
I've never noticed mono sound on KOF 96, I should replay it

I just tested it emulated and it's mono (thought I might have got confused with KoF '97, but no), but I think I first noticed it because when I played it on my Saturn sound was only coming from the centre speaker. It doesn't have a mono/stereo option either.

I've always wondered whether games like this were the same on all Saturns, or whether they worked properly on certain models. Golden Axe - The Dual sounds so bad through headphones that I don't know how the testers could have missed it.

Blades
05-13-2020, 11:38 PM
I remember renting Saturn Doom from a Hastings store where I loved at the time, after hearing how bad the framerate was from magazines. But when I played it, the framerate didn't bother me that much. The game just made the 32X version feel so lacking by comparison, that I almost went to Walmart to cancel my layaway of Saturn Hexen so I could get Saturn Doom instead. I was talked out of it, though, and eventually got to grab Saturn Doom from that same Walmart a little while later.

Everyone remembers their first Doom experience. Mine was on 3DO, and I loved it.

Blades
06-11-2020, 02:27 AM
You know what I realized that's interesting. Defcon 5, on both Saturn and Playstation, suffers from almost no texture warping. And on Saturn it runs at almost the same framerate as Playstation, which is already very high and stable. Perhaps efficient software column-based rendering is very possible on Saturn as it was on Playstation.


https://youtu.be/27pE4VkTUXs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpHEjdkz4qQ

Mega Drive Bowlsey
06-11-2020, 09:33 AM
Thought I'd post this here since it's extremely relevant to this thread, plus I love SLX's work.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep4O5voKaQk