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Ecco
03-21-2020, 09:41 AM
I just thought I'd ask if people have any particular recommendations for a Saturn save cart.

I could buy one from the 90's but I didn't know if there might be better options.

I'm considering this because my Saturn's watch-battery died after about 3 years... and I'm a huge fan of NiGHTS so I'd really love to not lose my data, every few yrs...

zyrobs
03-21-2020, 11:09 AM
All the official carts work fine, just remember to clean the pins.

I don't recommend the third party carts because not all can save directly.

Black_Tiger
03-21-2020, 12:03 PM
Modern carts of any kind tend to be too thick and can damage the cart port in classic consoles and the Saturn's is especially delicate.

zyrobs
03-21-2020, 03:32 PM
Modern carts of any kind tend to be too thick and can damage the cart port in classic consoles and the Saturn's is especially delicate.

This is false.

Only some old gamesharks (I think) had slightly thicker carts; things like the Action Replay were always fine, and that covers nearly everything made in the past 20 years. Can't speak for the Chinese pseudosaturn carts though.

And the cart slot isn't "delicate", it just suffers from contact errors as the pins are thin. Clean the connector edge of your carts every so often and you won't have problems.
Note that you can hold down the L/R triggers on the Saturn pad on boot and you'll instantly go to the memory manager, so you can check if your cart connects even before the game boots.

StuOhQ
03-22-2020, 06:12 PM
Hope I'm not wrecking my Saturn with the red PsuedoSaturn cart I use...

Ecco
03-27-2020, 07:00 AM
Well so these save-carts batteries don't die themselves? The ones from the 90's are already like 25 years old...

bultje112
03-30-2020, 05:48 AM
get the official memory cart! all the other carts are terrible and will format eventually as well as break (to some extent) your cartridge slot. I found that out the hard way multiple times and now only use official memory cartridges

MushaAleste
04-08-2020, 04:07 PM
The official SEGA memory cart doesnt have a battery.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
04-09-2020, 06:56 AM
The official save cart all the way. Never had any problems at all with mine, and it offers a shit ton of save space. Memory management was definitely one area in which Sega offered value for money when compared to Sony. I mean with the Saturn not only could you save direct to the console, but you had the huge save cart too. By comparison PS1 memory cards were a total rip-off and offered very little save space.

zyrobs
04-09-2020, 12:06 PM
The official SEGA memory cart doesnt have a battery.

Some Sega carts do use a battery, but it's very rare.

edit: I recall seeing some cart pcb pictures that had a battery inside, but I can't seem to find it, so I could be remembering wrong... and no, I'm not thinking of the Mega CD save cart.
edit2: found the thread: https://segasaturngroup.proboards.com/thread/1852/saturn-memory-carts-flash-battery but the images are long gone. Still, it seems I remembered right, some official carts do use batteries.

profholt82
04-09-2020, 12:35 PM
I use the Memory Card Plus by Interactive. It has around 16,000 memory blocks which is just ridiculous. I think the Saturn's internal storage holds 500 to put that in perspective. It's got to be the largest memory cart made for the system. It also works as a region unlocker for me, as when it's in, powering the system up bypasses the region code, and I'm free to play Japanese games.

All of that said, I bought mine new in the box about 5 years ago or so, and it's worked perfectly for me, never had an issue. However, if you look around the internets, this thing has a reputation for raping your grandma and kicking your dog. A lot of people on reddit and the like seem to complain about it. Like I said, I love it and have never had an issue, but some others disagree. I'd say that if you buy a new one and not a used one off ebay or wherever, you'll be fine, but I wanted to point that out.

Ecco
07-19-2020, 10:28 PM
Thanks guys,

So the original save cart... just rewrites itself for its saves, without a battery, like Sonic 3?

It's a shame that the Saturn doesn't have its own internal save feature, like the Sega CD does with rechargeable inner battery, or maybe a non-battery save feature, that's actually built-in to the Saturn, would have been great.

Saturn is such an in-between system, imo. Like no one really knew quite what to do, at that point in time. So the Saturn ended up as kind of a rough mess of a console. Which I love, but it's still a messy jumble of different things, thrown together.

But to be as optimistic as possible, maybe they just expected everyone to buy a save-cart, at which point the saving stops being problematic. So maybe that's the best way to look at it. But it sure is disappointing that the console itself is lame with its watch-battery saving.

zyrobs
07-20-2020, 09:26 AM
The Saturn actually has the best solution, a little slot where you can change the batteries. On the Sega CD and DC you have to disassemble the unit and solder in another battery. Playstations had no internal memory at all, you had to shell out money for a save cart, which only had maybe 12 save blocks, it was extremely inefficient, in order to sell more save carts if you had a bigger library.

I don't know if anyone made any rechargeable battery mods (or even a supercapacitor), but FRAM mods do exist, which make the internal memory persistent. You'd only need to change batteries for the internal clock.

Blades
07-21-2020, 02:29 PM
The Saturn actually has the best solution, a little slot where you can change the batteries. On the Sega CD and DC you have to disassemble the unit and solder in another battery. Playstations had no internal memory at all, you had to shell out money for a save cart, which only had maybe 12 save blocks, it was extremely inefficient, in order to sell more save carts if you had a bigger library.

I don't know if anyone made any rechargeable battery mods (or even a supercapacitor), but FRAM mods do exist, which make the internal memory persistent. You'd only need to change batteries for the internal clock.

The Saturn has by far the worst solution. Since the clock is INEXPLICABLY tied to the memory it has to be changed every year or all your saves disappear. Also, the internal memory is tiny and only includes space for a few games. Some games take up the entire memory. And the clock doesn't even keep accurate time.

Sure, the Sega CD was battery backed too but it wasn't tied to a clock so it lasted 15+ years (mine lasted 19).

The PSX has by far the best solution for memory. You can buy as much memory as you need, I've never actually filled a memory card unless it was replays, and it's non-volatile. One PSX memory card has 4 times as much capacity as the internal Saturn memory.

The Dreamcast VMU was also great for the same reasons.

What about changing the battery and losing all your saves every year appeals to you?

The Saturn memory cartridges are region-free, so you can buy a Japanese cartridge if you find one for less.

zyrobs
07-21-2020, 09:24 PM
The PSX has by far the best solution for memory.

Many PSX games are UNPLAYABLE without a save cart (basically every RPG). Best solution, indeed.

Blades
07-21-2020, 10:35 PM
I don't understand. Yes, most games are not playable without memory on both Saturn and PSX.

zyrobs
07-22-2020, 01:08 AM
I don't understand. Yes, most games are not playable without memory on both Saturn and PSX.

How many Saturn games can you name, which you cannot play without a backup cart?

Blades
07-22-2020, 09:32 AM
Sim City 2000 off the top of my head. The Saturn only has 32kb. Each PSX card is 128kb. Nights takes up a ton of space.

How many PSX games can you name that take up an entire card? Iíve never heard of such a thing.

zyrobs
07-22-2020, 10:24 AM
Sim City 2000 off the top of my head. The Saturn only has 32kb. Each PSX card is 128kb. Nights takes up a ton of space.

How many PSX games can you name that take up an entire card? Iíve never heard of such a thing.

Sim City 2000 allows you to save 1 city in the internal memory, making it fully playable. Sure, it takes up the entire thing, but the game still works without a backup cart.
Nights only takes a lot of place for the A-life data, which you can delete. Game progress is still saved.

Populus 3 saves on the PSX eat up an entire memory card.

PSX cards are cut up to use 15 blocks (I think - it's been a while), so a game will use up 1 block at minimum even if it would only need a few kilobytes. It's extremely wasteful.

edit: apparently Sim City 2000 on the PSX can also require 15 blocks, depending on the size of your city, and if you build a city large enough it cannot be saved at all. wtf.

gamevet
07-22-2020, 12:51 PM
NFL2K fills up a VMU. Thereís maybe a couple of blocks left, after you save. Iíd imagine that NFL Gameday would take up a PlayStation card.

Blades
07-22-2020, 01:01 PM
edit: apparently Sim City 2000 on the PSX can also require 15 blocks, depending on the size of your city, and if you build a city large enough it cannot be saved at all. wtf.

Lol that's because the SC2K port on PSX is awful.

I've never had issues with capacity on PSX, I've only filled one memory card and that was full of Driver 2 replays. My regular memory card isn't even half full.

On the other hand my Saturn was always an adventure in juggling save space until I got a save cart. Maybe I use my Saturn more, I don't know.

The biggest problem for me is your Saturn saves disappearing after a year, making the internal memory useless for me. PSX memory card data lasts forever.

Team Andromeda
07-22-2020, 02:04 PM
Sim City 2000 off the top of my head. The Saturn only has 32kb. Each PSX card is 128kb. Nights takes up a ton of space.

How many PSX games can you name that take up an entire card? Iíve never heard of such a thing.

The Saturn actually has 256 kb for saves . I don't know where you were getting your CR32 batteries from, but most half decent ones would last 3 to 4 years easy . It should also be noted, that the price of the Saturn Official back up memory cart was only £10 more than the official Sony memory card in the UK while offering 3 times the storage and with that you were pretty much sorted for life on the Saturn, not like on the DC or PS where you had to buy multiple memory cards , well SEGA did bring out a bigger DC memory card near the end of the system life LOL.

Still nothing like as bad as the N64 in its early years. I remember buying Turok and a memory card costing me over £100. A ridiculous system when every N64 gane should have saved to cart as standard.

roce
07-22-2020, 02:24 PM
Still nothing like as bad as the N64 in its early years. I remember buying Turok and a memory card costing me over £100. A ridiculous system when every N64 gane should have saved to cart as standard.

Huh?

Following the 1996 Christmas Shopping Season, Next Generation reported "impressive sales of the memory pack cartridges despite the lack of available games to take advantage of the $19.99 units".

Even with Brit taxes, no way 19.99$ becomes 100£. Maybe you bought a bundle? Turok was an expensive game, going for more than the other N64 titles.

Team Andromeda
07-22-2020, 02:31 PM
Huh?


Even with Brit taxes, no way 19.99$ becomes 100£. Maybe you bought a bundle? Turok was an expensive game, going for more than the other N64 titles.

It became £100 Given the game on its own cost £70 and to be able to save in Turok you needed a memory card and so that was £35 quid on top, unlike Mario 64/Pilotwings 64 which saved to cart. So Turok on its launch was a very expensive day for me, but didn't care as the game was amazing.

I would imagine it was a similar situation for US Turok fans on its launch .

Blades
07-22-2020, 03:56 PM
The Saturn actually has 256 kb for saves

Ok fair, 256 kilobit = 32 kilobyte. Playstation has 128 kilobytes per card.

zyrobs
07-22-2020, 09:00 PM
On the other hand my Saturn was always an adventure in juggling save space until I got a save cart. Maybe I use my Saturn more, I don't know.

The biggest problem for me is your Saturn saves disappearing after a year, making the internal memory useless for me. PSX memory card data lasts forever.

If you get a backup cart, your saves will last forever on the Saturn too. And Saturn carts are 512kbyte, 4x larger than PSX cards. They save faster too, in most games you don't even have a save prompt.

Blades
07-22-2020, 10:06 PM
If you get a backup cart, your saves will last forever on the Saturn too.


On the other hand my Saturn was always an adventure in juggling save space until I got a save cart.

So in the end we accomplished nothing. Itís also a lot bigger and more expensive and you cannot copy to another cart without a lot of copying and erasing to the internal memory. Donít get me wrong I love the Saturn, but if there was one part that I wish was more like the PlayStation itís the memory system.

As I write this I realize I went past the year change interval for my Saturn in 2020. Shoot, I guess all my saves are gone again.

zyrobs
07-22-2020, 11:14 PM
Dear lord are you this dense or are you just trolling?

If you just use the vanilla systems with no save carts:
- Saturn can save
- PSX cannot

If you buy a save cart
- Saturn cart has 8000+ blocks, enough space for HUNDREDS of games
- PSX cart has 15 blocks, it can only store 15 game saves, or LESS if a game uses more space.

Whoops, I just made another snapshot in Metal Gear Solid, which takes up an extra save slot. Now the cart is full, I guess I'll need to buy another cart again...

Blades
07-23-2020, 12:10 AM
Dear lord are you this dense or are you just trolling?

Yeah buddy, I joined 14 years ago hoping to get the chance to troll you about your preference of memory. If there's one thing we know, it's that when someone truly has the objective truth on their side, they turn to personal attacks.


If you just use the vanilla systems with no save carts:
- Saturn can save
- PSX cannot

No kidding. And if my cat had wheels he'd be a wagon.

Saturn's integrated memory costs more, has less memory, is time-limited for no reason other than keeping a poorly-running clock going, requires you to buy an expensive save cart for permanent saves, and cannot transfer those saves to another cart without copying to the internal memory in bits and pieces. This design is flawed, and that is why Sega themselves went to the PSX approach for their next console.

Your "block" comparison is objectively ridiculous because the blocks are different sizes. PSX "blocks" are ~8 KB and Saturn "blocks" are ~0.05 KB. NiGHTs A-Life alone takes up ~200 of your ~500 internal blocks, not to mention the actual game save. Final Fantasy VII takes up ONE block. You can save 15 games on one card.

Your comparison is wrong. Having integrated memory isn't an advantage. If your argument is that you're so lazy you cannot get up and pop in a memory card into your PSX AND YET are perfectly willing to change the Saturn battery every year, sure Saturn memory is a better fit for you, but that's because you're insane.

I've never met someone so emotionally attached to the Saturn's memory setup.

zyrobs
07-23-2020, 02:10 AM
You keep arguing the Saturn, WITHOUT A CARD, is worse at saves than a PSX WITH A CARD. You are not even making a direct comparison.

Nights is one of the very few games that use so much space. The grand majority of games use anything from 2-35 blocks. I can check my emulator library for exact sizes, but at a quick glance 90% of my 450 or so save files are under 4 kbytes.


Your "block" comparison is objectively ridiculous because the blocks are different sizes.
That's exactly why the comparison is NOT ridiculous, in fact it matters a great deal, because more blocks on the same space means that the cart is more efficient. It means that my one Saturn save cart holds saves to more games than you could on ten PSX memory cards. You can't copy from cart to cart, that's true, but you don't need to because the cart is so big you don't need a second one.

With the Dreamcast, Sega was out of money, so they couldn't exactly do everything, they wanted to copy the Playstation formula as closely as possible to appease all developers and consumers - and the system STILL had internal memory, for storing system settings, ISP info, at least one game could even permanently re-skin the entire dashboard. But that's a different argument; and the entire industry shifted to internal hard drives a bit later anyway, making it a moot point.


I've never met someone so emotionally attached to the Saturn's memory setup.
Oh, I've plenty of issues with the Saturn's memory setup (lack of data resiliency and the awful cart slot being the biggest ones), what I'm doing is arguing against a moron who makes moronic statements. The irony of course is that doing so is entirely futile.

Team Andromeda
07-23-2020, 04:30 AM
Ok fair, 256 kilobit = 32 kilobyte. Playstation has 128 kilobytes per card.

Like I said that's a £30 saving right there, and also when you factored in the Sega official memory card cost just £10 more than the SONY card and offered 3 times the storage, that represented a big saving too (pardon the pun). My Panasonic
CR32 batteries lasted a good 4 years and so have no idea why your's only would last a year?.

I've said this before and while the £100 price difference looked terrible from a PR perspective with the launch UK Pal Sega Saturn system you had a pack in-game Virtual Fighter (£40 )an official SEGA RBG Scart Lead (on its own £30) and no need to buy a memory card to save games, where as the PS Pal system came with no Pack-in Game, crappy RF lead, and no memory Cart, but SEGA didn't a terrible job of getting that message across, not helped with a biased press either

Team Andromeda
07-23-2020, 04:41 AM
Your "block" comparison is objectively ridiculous because the blocks are different sizes. PSX "blocks" are ~8 KB and Saturn "blocks" are ~0.05 KB. NiGHTs A-Life alone takes up ~200 of your ~500 internal blocks, not to mention the actual game save. Final Fantasy VII takes up ONE block. You can save 15 games on one card..

You're not even comparing like for like anymore. But for compassion sake, Panzer Dragoon Saga takes up 21 blocks and so that means WITHOUT the need to buy a memory card you can save 24 times for Saga, out for the Saturn internal 510 blocks, even more for RPG's like Shining Wisdom

Ecco
07-23-2020, 07:09 AM
Well, one way to judge the Saturn's saving is... compared to the Sega CD's saving, before it. The internal rechargeable battery seems to last almost forever, as it gets charged by powering on the SCD.

It's really the most direct comparison, and so Saturn falls flat with wimpy watch-batteries that die every few years. Obviously Sega CD had better saving that never dies (if you keep turning on the SCD occasionally).

But then again, if the Saturn save cart is supposed to be considered a necessary part of the console, then the watch-battery wouldn't be considered a problem...

Also my Saturn battery died in about 3 years so I'm not sure why someone mentioned losing their saves every one year, I don't know what that's about. I was just disappointed that my watch-battery died in 3 years...

Team Andromeda
07-23-2020, 07:22 AM
Well, one way to judge the Saturn's saving is... compared to the Sega CD's saving, before it. The internal rechargeable battery seems to last almost forever, as it gets charged by powering on the SCD.


That falls down in a couple of areas. Playing certain games on the Mega CD takes up the entire memory block of the system for games like Sensible Soccer or Shining Force and in fact you can't play Sensible Soccer/ Champion Soccer 94 without it wiping out all your previous saves and it taking up the whole 128 blocks (as I learnt to my cost once) . You then also had the issue that in Pal land SEGA Europe didn't even bring out the Ram Cart for saves, so just having a few Mega-CD games would fill the memory.

The CR32 battery was good for over 4 years and you could always look to change it every 2 to 3 years to be sure and make sure that when changing it, you had the Saturn powered on so no save data would be lost, or you could buy just the Saturn Official memory card and be done for life. Ok I know some people may point out that Saturn Hexxen took up 3800 blocks or something, but there was a password option for the game and I believed the PS version took up the entire memory card.

So like with most systems at the time, they all had their good and bad points

Blades
07-23-2020, 09:40 AM
what I'm doing is arguing against a moron who makes moronic statements. The irony of course is that doing so is entirely futile.

You are insane. Have a good day.

Iím right, by the way.

Team Andromeda
07-23-2020, 10:07 AM
You are insane. Have a good day.

Iím right, by the way.

No, He's backing up his comments with factual evidence and proven examples, none of which was anecdotal. If I had to pick a misgiving with the Saturn memory system, it was that the SONY Memory Cards were more reliable, with the SEGA one a little proven to getting bad sector's, more so if you were swapping carts to play 1 or 4 Meg games. I also think Fighting Vipers replay's save had issues with corrupting the Official memory Cart in some circumstances

BonusKun
07-23-2020, 04:56 PM
You keep arguing the Saturn, WITHOUT A CARD, is worse at saves than a PSX WITH A CARD. You are not even making a direct comparison.

Hey bud just relax a little. I think maybe something of what he's saying might have gone over your head. What I see that he's trying to tell you is that while the Saturn does have an internal save system, It's not as dependable as owning a PlayStation memory card. Generally the Saturn's internal memory is tied to that battery and the clock inside. I think what Blades is saying is that he prefers having a PS memory card mainly because you don't have to worry about the save file getting lost due to a battery eventually dying.

I agree mostly with where he's coming from but I can see the point you're making also.

Also stop with the name calling. It's too damn early for me to moderate people.

Team Andromeda
07-23-2020, 05:16 PM
=BonusKun;865065
just relax a little. I think maybe something of what he's saying might have gone over your head. What I see that he's trying to tell you is that while the Saturn does have an internal save system, It's not as dependable as owning a PlayStation memory card.

LOL It far more dependable than the need to buy a memory card to save a game. I'm not sure in the USA, but in Japan and the UK, every Saturn sold included a CR32 Battery (on Launch 94/95) and so you didn't have memory worries, on the day you bought your console, Unlike with with the PS where it was an additional cost, to save a game

BonusKun
07-23-2020, 05:54 PM
LOL It far more dependable than the need to buy a memory card to save a game. I'm not sure in the USA, but in Japan and the UK, every Saturn sold included a CR32 Battery (on Launch 94/95) and so you didn't have memory worries, on the day you bought your console, Unlike with with the PS where it was an additional cost, to save a game

So since you think this is so funny, what happens to your saves when the battery dies?

The additional cost has nothing to do with anything. We weren't discussing pricing. I like the Memory Cards on the original PS System. Yes they were separate but they weren't also tied to the system directly.

I mean let's be real here. While having an already internal memory within a system is great, you have to keep in mind that a lot of factors come into play. The Saturn is old fucking hardware. It's not going to last forever no matter how much you try and take care of it. Sooner or later something is going to have issues.

Drive going bad.

Something on the board goes bad.

You get the idea.

When that happens those saves you have might be lost forever if you didn't think to copy them to the RAM cart. The PS1 system also has the same issues obviously but at least with a Memory Card, you don't have to put much thought into worrying about your save files since they are interchangeable and can be used on any system without worry of your old files being lost.

I know you want to be 100% right about this but there is a middle ground and I suggest you try and reach it.

stu
07-23-2020, 06:01 PM
Unlike with with the PS where it was an additional cost, to save a game

Except that with the PlayStation you could buy the console and memory card and still save money over buying a Saturn.....LOL. :D

BonusKun
07-23-2020, 06:03 PM
Except that with the PlayStation you could buy the console and memory card and still save money over buying a Saturn.....LOL. :D

Thanks for reminding me about that. I'd forgotten that the Saturn's price was still higher then the PS1's at that time.

Team Andromeda
07-23-2020, 06:48 PM
Except that with the PlayStation you could buy the console and memory card and still save money over buying a Saturn.....LOL. :D

Exept when you bought a Saturn on launch you got a free game, a free memory block and a free RGB Scart lead . So spare us the LOL

BonusKun
07-23-2020, 07:33 PM
Exept when you bought a Saturn on launch you got a free game, a free memory block and a free RGB Scart lead . So spare us the LOL

What if the free game with the system wasn't one you wanted to play?

gamevet
07-23-2020, 09:37 PM
Scart?

Us Yanks got a composite cable.

gamevet
07-23-2020, 09:41 PM
Dear lord are you this dense or are you just trolling?

If you just use the vanilla systems with no save carts:
- Saturn can save
- PSX cannot

If you buy a save cart
- Saturn cart has 8000+ blocks, enough space for HUNDREDS of games
- PSX cart has 15 blocks, it can only store 15 game saves, or LESS if a game uses more space.

Whoops, I just made another snapshot in Metal Gear Solid, which takes up an extra save slot. Now the cart is full, I guess I'll need to buy another cart again...


Hundreds of games my ass; It's more like dozens of games. I had to buy a second memory cart for my Saturn, because of RPGs and sports games hogging up all of the cart space.

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15499&d=1595551258

zyrobs
07-23-2020, 11:58 PM
Hey bud just relax a little. I think maybe something of what he's saying might have gone over your head. What I see that he's trying to tell you is that while the Saturn does have an internal save system, It's not as dependable as owning a PlayStation memory card. Generally the Saturn's internal memory is tied to that battery and the clock inside. I think what Blades is saying is that he prefers having a PS memory card mainly because you don't have to worry about the save file getting lost due to a battery eventually dying.

I agree mostly with where he's coming from but I can see the point you're making also.

Also stop with the name calling. It's too damn early for me to moderate people.

I get what he is saying, but the point I'm making is that he is comparing an console upgraded with an accessory, to a stock unit. Of course the PSX with a mem cart is better than a stock Saturn, because you bought an accessory for it that makes it better than the stock unit. It's like arguing that a console for which you bought a second controller is better for 2 player games, than a console for which you only have one controller.

But if you don't buy a memory cart, the Saturn is better at saving, and if you buy the memory cart for both, the Saturn gives you more space to save. So in both cases, it is better.

gamevet
07-24-2020, 12:07 AM
The point kind of become moot, if you play a certain genre of game, where just the saves for 1 game takes up all of the internal save memory of the Saturn. It was good enough at launch, when most of the games were of the arcade variety, but once you got into stat heavy sports games, or an RPG that had a lot of items to track, it was all used up.

zyrobs
07-24-2020, 12:24 AM
Hundreds of games my ass; It's more like dozens of games. I had to buy a second memory cart for my Saturn, because of RPGs and sports games hogging up all of the cart space.

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15499&d=1595551258

I don't know the exact number but I'm sure that my save cart has at least a hundred save files on it, and it still has a couple of thousand blocks free. I guess we just play different kinds of titles. RPGs and sports games are indeed those that use more space, the worst are the ghost cars in Sega Rally and the full replays in Fighting Vipers which can take thousands of blocks each.

zyrobs
07-24-2020, 12:33 AM
The point kind of become moot, if you play a certain genre of game, where just the saves for 1 game takes up all of the internal save memory of the Saturn. It was good enough at launch, when most of the games were of the arcade variety, but once you got into stat heavy sports games, or an RPG that had a lot of items to track, it was all used up.

Yeah, but compare it to a stock Playstation, where you can't even save at all.

gamevet
07-24-2020, 01:09 AM
I paid $400 for my Saturn and $300 for my Playstation. I only use 3 memory cards for my PS, which amounted to about $60, while my 2 memory carts for the Saturn were around $100. $360 for the Playstation, with memory cards, still came in cheaper than just the Saturn.


I don't know the exact number but I'm sure that my save cart has at least a hundred save files on it, and it still has a couple of thousand blocks free. I guess we just play different kinds of titles. RPGs and sports games are indeed those that use more space, the worst are the ghost cars in Sega Rally and the full replays in Fighting Vipers which can take thousands of blocks each.

You may have 100 save files, but that does not mean that it is for 100 games. I have around 90 Saturn games, and I had to buy a second cart to cover all of those games.


Just look at my 4 save files for Dragon Force. They use over 1,200 blocks of save file space. This cart is mostly used for RPGs and non-arcade games.

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15501&d=1595563019

The Ghost car for Daytona USA would take most of the remaining space on that cart.

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15500&d=1595562996

The 2 save files for Iron Storm, would not fit on the internal save file of the Saturn.

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15502&d=1595563048

World Series Baseball 98 would take up 80% plus of the internal save file space of the Saturn. And there are only 89 save files on the cartridge. It's not even close to save files for 50 games.

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15503&d=1595563059

zyrobs
07-24-2020, 02:05 AM
I paid $400 for my Saturn and $300 for my Playstation. I only use 3 memory cards for my PS, which amounted to about $60, while my 2 memory carts for the Saturn were around $100. $360 for the Playstation, with memory cards, still came in cheaper than just the Saturn.

I bought something like 3 from ebay from Japan for maybe around $30 plus shipping. I don't even remember.
There are also 16k block third party save carts that incidentally cost less than the 8k block official carts (at least in the 1997 ads I checked).


You may have 100 save files, but that does not mean that it is for 100 games. I have around 90 Saturn games, and I had to buy a second cart to cover all of those games.

I play tested nearly the entire USA+PAL library except for the sports titles (think fifa/nhl/nfl/nba, not Sega Rally), so it could very well have saves for 100+ games. I also have some stuff that used multiple saves (PD Saga, Shining Force 3, Castlevania come to mind), and yeah, those use more, but they fit there just fine.

As far as I know, no game uses more than the entirety of the internal memory for a REQUIRED save file, only for OPTIONAL saves like the ghost cars in Sega Rally, or making more than 1 save in an RPG. So you can still play all of those titles without a save cart, even if you have to do it one at a time. I used to build huge cities in Sim City 2k without a save cart on my Saturn, so I know very well what it means to juggle your saves, but it did not make me enjoy each game any less.


Just look at my 4 save files for Dragon Force. They use over 1,200 blocks of save file space. This cart is mostly used for RPGs and non-arcade games.

The Ghost car for Daytona USA would take most of the remaining space on that cart.

The 2 save files for Iron Storm, would not fit on the internal save file of the Saturn.

World Series Baseball 98 would take up 80% plus of the internal save file space of the Saturn. And there are only 89 save files on the cartridge. It's not even close to save files for 50 games.

You have over a dozen saves for one of the largest game on the system, so of course you need a lot of space. But look at your other saves files, which are 13 blocks, 30 blocks, 32 blocks... those are what the average game uses. 200+ of those could still fit on a single cart.

gamevet
07-24-2020, 02:16 AM
The ghost cars are very much a big part of Sega Rally 95 and Daytona USA, if you want to learn to decrease your lap times. They are pretty much games that center around having perfect laps to get to the last tracks.

Did you buy those carts when the Saturn was relevant? Places like Ebay weren't even known back in 1996 and the import places that I knew of, had to be contacted through magazine advertisements.

Team Andromeda
07-24-2020, 02:16 PM
Hundreds of games my ass; It's more like dozens of games. I had to buy a second memory cart for my Saturn, because of RPGs and sports games hogging up all of the cart space.

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15499&d=1595551258

Yes, hundreds. I liked to know these RPG and sports games take up so much space even with the Ghost data in games like Rally or Touring Car you had tons of room left over. I never had to buy a 2nd memory cart and I own at last count 480 original Saturn games and the only game that made space an issue was Hexen, but I just used the password

Team Andromeda
07-24-2020, 02:23 PM
The ghost cars are very much a big part of Sega Rally 95 and Daytona USA, if you want to learn to decrease your lap times. .


So how did Arcade users manage? or in driving games Virtual Racing, Ridge Racer, which didn't even have the feature.
Sector times and fastest laps could be stored in the system RAM so you would know if you're going faster or slower. I bet most people didn't even know Rally stored ghosts to the Cart if they had the memory cart at all

Team Andromeda
07-24-2020, 02:27 PM
What if the free game with the system wasn't one you wanted to play?

Sell it and use the money to buy a new game?. It hard to moan about a game given free with the system. I know many were the biggest fans of Altered Beast On the MD (I loved it mind) but it was hard to complain since it was free

gamevet
07-24-2020, 07:44 PM
So how did Arcade users manage? or in driving games Virtual Racing, Ridge Racer, which didn't even have the feature.
Sector times and fastest laps could be stored in the system RAM so you would know if you're going faster or slower. I bet most people didn't even know Rally stored ghosts to the Cart if they had the memory cart at all

The track is much wider in the arcade game of Daytona. CCE widened the track considerably over the 1st game, so hitting those corners on the home version was much harder than the arcade game. I canít speak for Sega Rally, though the home port looks to be pretty spot on.

gamevet
07-24-2020, 09:41 PM
Yes, hundreds. I liked to know these RPG and sports games take up so much space even with the Ghost data in games like Rally or Touring Car you had tons of room left over. I never had to buy a 2nd memory cart and I own at last count 480 original Saturn games and the only game that made space an issue was Hexen, but I just used the password

You need to post your magical memory cart that has 400 game saves on it, because I promise you, that ain't true.

I currently have around 90 games. I've had a lot more, but I trimmed the fat when I traded in games to get a Dreamcast and some games.



Here's the 1st section of saves on that RPG cart.

College Slam uses 88 blocks for its save.
Dragon Force uses 568 blocks for the 2 saves for Wein's Campaign, and another 568 blocks for the 2 saves for Goldark. The grand total is 1136 blocks for that game alone.

gamevet
07-24-2020, 09:51 PM
Part 2


Nascar 98 uses 129 blocks.
NBA 98 uses 78 blocks.
Riglord Saga uses 118
Nights has 3 save files that total 292 blocks.
Pebble Beach Golf's save file is 181 blocks.
Magic Knight Rayearth has 4 save files for a total 272 blocks


Those 6 titles, alone, use up 1,070 blocks, or 15% of the total cartridge space.

gamevet
07-24-2020, 10:00 PM
Part 3

We're not even through half of the cart yet.

Shining Force 3 (North America) has 4 save files for a total of 812 blocks.
Sega Touring Car Championship has 2 save files for some odd reason. Those 2 saves use a total of 444 blocks, and there is no ghost replay save.
Virtua Fighter 2 uses 180 blocks for its saves.
Shining Wisdom's save files use 51 blocks.

These 4 games take up another 20% of the cartridge space.

gamevet
07-24-2020, 10:17 PM
Part 4


Warcraft 2 uses 433 blocks for its saves.
Winter Heat and Wipeout use a combined 65 blocks.
World Series Baseball 98 uses 373 blocks for the season and 14 more for the Home Run Derby records.
World Series Baseball 97 uses 104 blocks for its 2 save files, but it could be erased since 98 is the superior game and I go rid of 97.


Yeah, I'm not fitting another 30 games on this, unless they are shooters, or puzzle games.

Black_Tiger
07-25-2020, 12:48 AM
Except that with the PlayStation you could buy the console and memory card and still save money over buying a Saturn.....LOL. :D

Where I lived the Saturn was the same price as the Playstation after the Playstation finally arrived. The next year you got a Saturn with 4 great games. Was it really more expensive than Playstation in the U.S.? Because I too often see people comparing launch prices, libraries etc and completely ignore the context of the individual launches.

I know know that PSX card memory was so small that I needed a stack of them while a single backup cart was more than enough for Saturn.

One thing you couldn't buy for Playstation for too long was a decent controller.


EDIT: something else to keep in mind is that with the Netlink you could upload your saves online and download saves that others posted. While the Saturn remained active and I believe after the Dreamcast launched you had unlimited online save storage.

gamevet
07-25-2020, 01:06 AM
Cloud storage for the Saturn? I never heard of that, and I had a Netlink.

Team Andromeda
07-25-2020, 01:23 AM
The track is much wider in the arcade game of Daytona. CCE widened the track considerably over the 1st game, so hitting those corners on the home version was much harder than the arcade game. I canít speak for Sega Rally, though the home port looks to be pretty spot on.

What? The biggest issue of Daytona USA CE was it didn't handle like the Arcade game or the AM#2 Saturn port and CS Team changed the AI too. That's to overlook how the AM#2 Saturn port didn't have ghost features, nor did the RR on the PS and that never stopped people from improving their time's and the same for gamers in the Arcades. I never needed a Ghost replay to improve my OutRun 2 times, that was done via consistent play and replay's to learn the tracks. Sure it was a nice feature, but many people improved their Rally times, by just playing the hell of out the game in both the Arcades and home. I would put to that's the case for Forza 7 or GT Sports right here and now

gamevet
07-25-2020, 02:26 AM
What? The biggest issue of Daytona USA CE was it didn't handle like the Arcade game or the AM#2 Saturn port and CS Team changed the AI too. That's to overlook how the AM#2 Saturn port didn't have ghost features, nor did the RR on the PS and that never stopped people from improving their time's and the same for gamers in the Arcades. I never needed a Ghost replay to improve my OutRun 2 times, that was done via consistent play and replay's to learn the tracks. Sure it was a nice feature, but many people improved their Rally times, by just playing the hell of out the game in both the Arcades and home. I would put to that's the case for Forza 7 or GT Sports right here and now

It's a feature of the game that does use save space. Wether you used it or not is a moot point. You can also use the ghost racer to compete with yourself, to improve times. It's a better way of challenging yourself to improve and hone your racing line to achieve the perfect lap.

I'm still waiting for your magical cart, that holds game saves for 400+ games.

Team Andromeda
07-25-2020, 06:08 AM
It's a feature of the game that does use save space. Wether you used it or not is a moot point. You can also use the ghost racer to compete with yourself, to improve times. It's a better way of challenging yourself to improve and hone your racing line to achieve the perfect lap.

I'm still waiting for your magical cart, that holds game saves for 400+ games.

It's not a moot point , since your best lap times and fastest laps in SEGA Rally are stored to the system memory and get a comparison for sector times every time you play ( no need for the memory cart) . I can't remember Ghost replays being in the sequel on any system either

There are many racers that even now don't have a ghost mode and that doesn't stop people improving their times . That's mainly done by playing the hell out of the game and learning the track and when to attack a corner and when to break

gamevet
07-25-2020, 10:22 AM
Youíre making up BS excuses. Gran Turismo and Forza have ghost cars, as do other racing games. Itís not some anomaly.

Ecco
07-25-2020, 02:03 PM
Guys can you explain what exactly is the ghost car mode, that you're discussing?

What exactly do the ghost cars represent? Are they the recordings of the CPU cars in a past race, or of yourself in a past race? Or are the ghost cars something else, like showing the best possible moves on the track? That's what google makes it sound like...?

I'm just curious, as you guys regard it as an important mode, and I don't quite know what you mean...

Ecco
07-25-2020, 02:12 PM
That falls down in a couple of areas. Playing certain games on the Mega CD takes up the entire memory block of the system for games like Sensible Soccer or Shining Force and in fact you can't play Sensible Soccer/ Champion Soccer 94 without it wiping out all your previous saves and it taking up the whole 128 blocks (as I learnt to my cost once) . You then also had the issue that in Pal land SEGA Europe didn't even bring out the Ram Cart for saves, so just having a few Mega-CD games would fill the memory.

The CR32 battery was good for over 4 years and you could always look to change it every 2 to 3 years to be sure and make sure that when changing it, you had the Saturn powered on so no save data would be lost, or you could buy just the Saturn Official memory card and be done for life. Ok I know some people may point out that Saturn Hexxen took up 3800 blocks or something, but there was a password option for the game and I believed the PS version took up the entire memory card.

So like with most systems at the time, they all had their good and bad points

^I actually never heard anyone mention that: Simply replacing the Saturn's watch battery, while the console is on, to retain the saves.

If I had heard that in the past, then I would have just kept replacing the battery like that, regularly. Maybe I'd do it every year or so, to make sure that it would never get close to dying.

As it was, though, I was just using the same battery for about 3 years, as it seemed like a typical set-up. Of course, I didn't expect it to die in 3 years though.

As I've mentioned, I'm used to saves from the 90's and even 80's still surviving, on my Legend of Zelda cart, and the saves on my Sega CD, and Sonic 3, etc.

So I'm used to saves like that, and I hadn't worried about my Saturn dying quickly, but it did. It's disappointing after I had racked up good scores and A-life in NiGHTS and Christmas NiGHTS for those 3 yrs.

gamevet
07-25-2020, 02:31 PM
Guys can you explain what exactly is the ghost car mode, that you're discussing?

What exactly do the ghost cars represent? Are they the recordings of the CPU cars in a past race, or of yourself in a past race? Or are the ghost cars something else, like showing the best possible moves on the track? That's what google makes it sound like...?

I'm just curious, as you guys regard it as an important mode, and I don't quite know what you mean...

You can save a ghost racer of your best lap. The next time you race, you will have a transparent version of that car doing its lap. You can gauge how well your currently doing, by seeing where you are in relation to your best lap.

Blades
07-25-2020, 02:34 PM
It's disappointing after I had racked up good scores and A-life in NiGHTS and Christmas NiGHTS for those 3 yrs.

Because the Saturn's memory architecture is flawed and vastly inferior to the PSX and even Sega CD. It was a design mistake. If NiGHTs was on PSX, you wouldn't have this problem.

The Saturn is the equivalent of a PSX with a smaller and time-limited memory card super-glued into slot 1 and a $100 upcharge, leaving only slot 2 open and usable. Forget copying from card to card because of this idiotic decision.


I can't remember Ghost replays being in the sequel on any system either

What does that have to do with anything?! The memory is not a judge of what it stores, it's job is to store whatever is required. The architecture of a good memory system has the requirements of space, permanence, reliability, expansion, and backup. The Saturn does not have permanence, has less space than PSX+card unless you get an expensive cartridge, is expandable only through a giant cartridge-sized unit, and it is not possible to backup to a second cart without copying in tiny bits and pieces through the internal memory.

The amount of misleading comparisons and ejaculating in pants due to blind hatred of PlayStation in this thread is insane. God knows what the Saturn apologists in this thread do to their Saturns at night.

Ecco
07-25-2020, 02:59 PM
Because the Saturn's memory architecture is flawed and vastly inferior to the PSX and even Sega CD. It was a design mistake. If NiGHTs was on PSX, you wouldn't have this problem.

^Yep I'm inclined to agree, especially that other consoles and game cartridges of that time, had saves that survived for decades. Zelda, Sega CD, Sonic 3, other RPG carts on different systems, etc.

It surely does seem like a mistake that Saturn's watch battery only lasts 3 years.

If they had done the same thing as Sega CD's rechargeable battery, the saves would still be surviving today, 25 years later. Not to mention Sonic 3's approach of saving with no battery.

So there were tons of examples of other consoles and game carts using saving methods that were far superior, for years prior to the Saturn's launch.

However, one philosophical question is whether we should consider a save-cart as a necessary part of the system, then in theory we wouldn't mind the lameness of the watch-battery.

Also, if it was more well-known that the battery could just be replaced regularly, with the console on, and therefore never have any battery die: If that was more well-known, then maybe the lame watch battery also would not be considered a problem...

Ecco
07-25-2020, 03:01 PM
You can save a ghost racer of your best lap. The next time you race, you will have a transparent version of that car doing its lap. You can gauge how well your currently doing, by seeing where you are in relation to your best lap.

Thanks, that sounds really cool. I haven't played any Saturn racers yet, and the only racer I have put a lot of time into, is 32x Virtua Racing. :cool:

Team Andromeda
07-26-2020, 12:58 AM
Because the Saturn's memory architecture is flawed and vastly inferior to the PSX and even Sega CD. It was a design mistake. If NiGHTs was on PSX, you wouldn't ha.

If like the on PS you bought had to Memory card to save your games, you wouldn't have the worry. So its ok to buy multiple memory cards on the DC and PS, but utterly horrible for the need to buy just 1 on the Saturn? So Sorry, can't agree with you on that one. SEGA gave free memory and then the option to back up your data to a memory card with 3 times the storage at a later date and like I said before a decent brand new CR32 battery would give you 3 years of life at least, I got over 4 years out of one of mine inside a Saturn. So 3 years to be able to save up for either a new CR32 Battery or a buy a Memory card ... C'Mon Mate

It would have been more of an issue if like the CD-i they were no option to save a Memory Cart and the memory saves were tied to the internal battery on the system.

Team Andromeda
07-26-2020, 01:06 AM
You can save a ghost racer of your best lap. The next time you race, you will have a transparent version of that car doing its lap. You can gauge how well your currently doing, by seeing where you are in relation to your best lap.

There is no ghost car's in RR on the PS or the Arcades. People didn't look to better their times in those?. No Ghost Cars in Daytona USA Model 2 Arcade (the most Succesful Arcade driving game of all time), The Saturn AM#2 port. People didn't look to better their times in those?.
I very much doubt that the top Forza 7 or GT Sport players are using ghosts to win at those games, or even in a game like F1 2020 (which does have ghosts). Sega Rally II had no Ghosts in the Arcade, you just played the hell out of the Practice mode to better your laps; Moves that all go back to improving your lap times in Mario Kart on the Snes, by playing Time Trial.

Also, every SEGA Rally Saturn player knows the main way to improve your time on SEGA Rally Saturn is to hold XYZ down when selecting a course in Time Attack mode, to race the AM#3/CS Team Ghost Car (something which doesn't need the Memory Cart). That's the way you see how the makers of the game, got their best times. Sadly I don't think that feature was in the US version mind.

Blades
07-26-2020, 01:34 AM
If like the on PS you bought had to Memory card to save your games, you wouldn't have the worry. So its ok to buy multiple memory cards on the DC and PS, but utterly horrible for the need to buy just 1 on the Saturn? So Sorry, can't agree with you on that one. SEGA gave free memory and then the option to back up your data to a memory card with 3 times the storage at a later date and like I said before a decent brand new CR32 battery would give you 3 years of life at least, I got over 4 years out of one of mine inside a Saturn

Free? By buying a Saturn, you are buying a memory card. Except the memory you get is tiny, tied to the console, and set to self-destruct every year. Now your only choice is to spend more money, on top of the money already spent on a useless memory solution, on one that actually works. Even with that one, it isn't possible to backup to another cart because there's only one slot, so you better hope it never fails (which happens).

The question is which memory architecture is best for the player wishing to save his or her games. How is being forced to buy memory that has to have the battery changed every year by design that simultaneously costs more and somehow stores less a good idea? It's just absurd. Battery-backed memory by itself in 1994 is outdated, but one that is fed by a battery also feeding the clock is just absurd.

The Saturn backup memory is a giant cartridge that costs a heck of a lot more than even a set of PSX cards.

It is possible to save games on Saturn, obviously. The entire point is that the architecture is needlessly wasteful, and was likely carried over from a time when CD-ROMs were brand new and better solutions weren't available. On top of that, the clock is foolishly tied to the memory battery draining it in one year instead of 20 like on the Sega CD. It's all just poor engineering and oversight.

The Sega Saturn owner's manual says one year. Any more than that is borrowed time. I change mine every year with the power on to keep my saves, I've been doing that for years. The PSX requires no such maintenance.


I very much doubt that the top Forza 7 or GT Sport players are using ghosts to win at those games, or even in a game like F1 2020 (which does have ghosts). Sega Rally II had no Ghosts in the Arcade, you just played the hell out of the Practice mode to better your laps; Moves that all go back to improving your lap times in Mario Kart on the Snes, by playing Time Trial.

This has nothing to do with memory. The memory's job is to store what is asked of it. If it cannot, it has failed as memory.

gamevet
07-26-2020, 03:27 AM
There is no ghost car's in RR on the PS or the Arcades. People didn't look to better their times in those?. No Ghost Cars in Daytona USA Model 2 Arcade (the most Succesful Arcade driving game of all time), The Saturn AM#2 port. People didn't look to better their times in those?.
I very much doubt that the top Forza 7 or GT Sport players are using ghosts to win at those games, or even in a game like F1 2020 (which does have ghosts). Sega Rally II had no Ghosts in the Arcade, you just played the hell out of the Practice mode to better your laps; Moves that all go back to improving your lap times in Mario Kart on the Snes, by playing Time Trial.

Also, every SEGA Rally Saturn player knows the main way to improve your time on SEGA Rally Saturn is to hold XYZ down when selecting a course in Time Attack mode, to race the AM#3/CS Team Ghost Car (something which doesn't need the Memory Cart). That's the way you see how the makers of the game, got their best times. Sadly I don't think that feature was in the US version mind.

I don't give a fuck if Ridge racer didn't have a ghost mode. The Saturn version of may of their arcade racing games offered you the option to save your replay, and it became a standard for Gran Turismo games as well. Post your stupid save cart that held saves for your 400 plus games. You can't, because you're a clueless idiot that just spews nonsense.

Team Andromeda
07-26-2020, 06:08 AM
I don't give a fuck if Ridge racer didn't have a ghost mode.

What one of the best Arcade racers on the PS and also a Arcade smash and where with only one track, it really was all about improving your times .

How did you improve your times in Time Attack in original Daytona USA on the Saturn?

Team Andromeda
07-26-2020, 06:18 AM
Free? By buying a Saturn, you are buying a memory card. Except the memory you get is tiny, tied to the console, and set to self-destruct every year. Now your only choice is to spend more money, on top of the money already spent on a useless memory solution, on one that actually works. Even with that one, it isn't possible to backup to another cart because there's only one slot, so you better hope it never fails (which happens).

The question is which memory architecture is best for the player wishing to save his or her games. How is being forced to buy memory that has to have the battery changed every year by design that simultaneously costs more and somehow stores less a good idea? It's just absurd. Battery-backed memory by itself in 1994 is outdated, but one that is fed by a battery also feeding the clock is just absurd.

The Saturn backup memory is a giant cartridge that costs a heck of a lot more than even a set of PSX cards.


Yes free, you didn't need to buy a memory card and the 256kb was more than that found in the SONY memory card . Also in the the Official backup Memory card retailed at £44 Vs £30 for SONY one and that was for 4MEG cart Vs 1Meg . Hardly a heck of a lot more and the Saturn one offers far more storage .

Most Racers learn the tracks to get the better times , the best way in Rally is to just race the AM car anyway . BTW , I've have 6 Saturn's and only look to change the batteries in each every 3 years , the one in my launch Saturn lasted over 4 years

Team Andromeda
07-26-2020, 06:48 AM
The Saturn version of may of their arcade racing games offered you the option to save your replay, and it became a standard for Gran Turismo games as well. Post your stupid save cart that held saves for your 400 plus

Take the time to think what you're saying. Many Saturn games may use a save file, but don't save actual game progress. For example Panzer Dragoon Zwei use a file ,but doesn't save actual stage progression, and so you don't need to save to complete the actual game at all , it makes no difference if you do or not..

Play Virtual Cop and it doesn't save player progression, so you don't need to save to actually finish the game, same for VF, X-Men COTA, Souky, RSG and hundreds of Saturn games , even SEGA Rally for a little irony.

So many Arcade style Saturn games would just use a save file to hold data on times or extras given to the player for finishing the game, but not on how far a player is in the game in question, I knock the Saturn off in EP 4of Panzer Dragoon Zwei that's it and need to start again from the start next time I play

So while you need to save to finish Exhumed , it's not needed at all for Panzer Dragoon , Clockwork Ect, Ect..

zyrobs
07-26-2020, 07:54 AM
Free? By buying a Saturn, you are buying a memory card. Except the memory you get is tiny, tied to the console, and set to self-destruct every year. Now your only choice is to spend more money, on top of the money already spent on a useless memory solution, on one that actually works. Even with that one, it isn't possible to backup to another cart because there's only one slot, so you better hope it never fails (which happens).

The question is which memory architecture is best for the player wishing to save his or her games. How is being forced to buy memory that has to have the battery changed every year by design that simultaneously costs more and somehow stores less a good idea? It's just absurd. Battery-backed memory by itself in 1994 is outdated, but one that is fed by a battery also feeding the clock is just absurd.

The internal memory is meant to be a temporary solution so you can still play games without needing to cash out for a memory cart. Not a long term solution for your saves, and not something meant to hold 4793 ghost car replays.

You can buy a save cart if you require those.

The alternative is that the console cannot save at all, only on memory carts, like on the Playstation, which cost you or your parents a lot of extra money.
So including a small internal memory is better for the consumer because they can enjoy RPGs at the cost of a cr2032 battery every few years, instead of buying an entire memory cart.

I don't understand why this is a difficult concept for you to grasp: the internal memory is there as an extra feature. if they had not included it the console would have cost the same anyway (the BOM for the SRAM chip is less than 5$).


The Saturn backup memory is a giant cartridge that costs a heck of a lot more than even a set of PSX cards.
It can also hold a heck of a lot more saves, would you have preferred if it could only hold 15 saves maximum and then you have to keep buying more cards? Or to put it into perspective would you prefer if your phone could only save 15 photos on each SD card, so you have to keep buying more Apple/Samsung/Whatever branded ones? Because that's the level of fuckery that Sony did with memory cards on the PSX (Sony even had their own SD card standard, so if you bought a Sony camera or a PSP or whatever, you required their own memory sticks).


It is possible to save games on Saturn, obviously. The entire point is that the architecture is needlessly wasteful, and was likely carried over from a time when CD-ROMs were brand new and better solutions weren't available. On top of that, the clock is foolishly tied to the memory battery draining it in one year instead of 20 like on the Sega CD. It's all just poor engineering and oversight.
How the hell would you have kept the clock going, if not with a battery? I think what you mean here is that they should have used a non-battery powered solution, like FRAM or Flash, but those would have been significantly more expensive.
The internal memory is about the least wasteful thing in the Saturn architecture by the way.


The Sega Saturn owner's manual says one year. Any more than that is borrowed time. I change mine every year with the power on to keep my saves, I've been doing that for years. The PSX requires no such maintenance.
My Saturns last 3-4 years on one battery. The Playstation can't even save at all.
Unless you buy a save cart.

But if you buy a save cart, you won't have to maintain your Saturn saves either.

zyrobs
07-26-2020, 08:04 AM
The ghost cars are very much a big part of Sega Rally 95 and Daytona USA, if you want to learn to decrease your lap times. They are pretty much games that center around having perfect laps to get to the last tracks.

Did you buy those carts when the Saturn was relevant? Places like Ebay weren't even known back in 1996 and the import places that I knew of, had to be contacted through magazine advertisements.

I didn't even have a cart until ebay, I only used the internal memory and removed a game I was not playing at the moment if I needed the space. It wasn't a big deal, and I don't think I changed the battery in the console even once when I had it from around 1996 to 1999, I think.
Didn't have 90+ games either, only more like 3-4, that we kept trading/pawning for others once we were finished with them.


I don't give a fuck if Ridge racer didn't have a ghost mode. The Saturn version of may of their arcade racing games offered you the option to save your replay, and it became a standard for Gran Turismo games as well. Post your stupid save cart that held saves for your 400 plus games. You can't, because you're a clueless idiot that just spews nonsense.

I just checked my primary mem cart and it has 80-90 saves but it still has 2/3rd of the cart empty. And it's only games that I play more often (or titles that do not save at all).
When I tested all usa/pal games, I did it on an emulator, that puts save files directly on your HDD giving you infinite space. However the grand majority of files are pretty small. I have an editor somewhere that can move these saves into actual save cart files (ie. native cart dumps), so I'm confident I could whip up a memory cartridge that would have ~200 saves, even if I factor in fragmentation and filesystem headers into their size.

edit: yeah.
https://i.postimg.cc/7LNZfqrG/00000166.png

To save these on a Playstation, you'd need 17 save carts.

gamevet
07-26-2020, 01:00 PM
The PlayStation did have larger 3rd party, as well as 1st party save cards available. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/572731277607120309/ Yeah, I much preferred the Saturn cartridge, but once I started running out of space, it became a pain. I could fill half that Saturn cart with just sports titles, RPGs and the Sega Arcade Racers. And I did. I had to get that second cart and move the sports titles over to make room on that 1st cart. I also had to move Japanese save times over from my internal memory.

I could fill half that Saturn cart with just sports titles, RPGs and the Sega Arcade Racers. And I did. I had to get that second cart and move the sports titles over to make room on that 1st cart. I also had to move Japanese save files over from my internal memory, so I wouldnít lose them when the battery died every 2 years.




PlayStation save files are all much smaller as well. Look at Lunar 2, it only takes 8K for each save file.

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15526&d=1595782281

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15527&d=1595782289

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15528&d=1595782297

I just realized, that I'd lost my other memory card (Final Fantasy VII saves) when my Playstation was stolen in the 90s. :(

gamevet
07-26-2020, 04:14 PM
What one of the best Arcade racers on the PS and also a Arcade smash and where with only one track, it really was all about improving your times .

How did you improve your times in Time Attack in original Daytona USA on the Saturn?

Dude, seriously! Quit posting stupid shit. The 1st Ridge Racer sucked ass. You could beat it without once touching the brakes. I bought and sold the game 3 times.

There is no Time Attack in the original Daytona USA on the Saturn.

zyrobs
07-26-2020, 04:20 PM
The PlayStation did have larger 3rd party, as well as 1st party save cards available. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/572731277607120309/ Yeah, I much preferred the Saturn cartridge, but once I started running out of space, not as much.I could fill half that Saturn cart with just sports titles, RPGs and the Sega Arcade Racers. And I did. I had to get that second cart and move the sports titles over to make room on that 1st cart. I also had to move Japanese save times over from my internal memory.

I could fill half that Saturn cart with just sports titles, RPGs and the Sega Arcade Racers. And I did. I had to get that second cart and move the sports titles over to make room on that 1st cart. I also had to move Japanese save files over from my internal memory, so I wouldnít lose them when the battery died every 2 years.

PlayStation save files are all much smaller as well. Look at Lunar 2, it only takes 8K for each save file.

You are specifically comparing games with large saves vs games with small saves. You can fill up full memory cards with saves from one game only on the Playstation too, or even have games where you need an entire memory card for each save. You can have an entire memory card dedicated to MGS or Gran Turismo alone with no space for anything else.
The problem is that even if a save only uses 5 bytes, it will still take up 1 entire block (8 kbyte), which is extremely wasteful, and so you are limited to 15 save files, period, or less. On the Saturn I can have 250 files on one cart, even you can have 80 of them on one memory card with large saves from strategy and racing games.

Lunar saves are 8kb on the Saturn too, though I'm not sure which Lunar it is. Madou Monogatari (an RPG game) takes 4kb. Panzer Dragoon Saga saves are less than 2 kbytes. The save for Keio Flying Squadron 2 is a whooping 48 bytes (plus a few more bytes for the header).

gamevet
07-26-2020, 04:28 PM
You are specifically comparing games with large saves vs games with small saves. You can fill up full memory cards with saves from one game only on the Playstation too, or even have games where you need an entire memory card for each save. You can have an entire memory card dedicated to MGS or Gran Turismo alone with no space for anything else.
The problem is that even if a save only uses 5 bytes, it will still take up 1 entire block (8 kbyte), which is extremely wasteful, and so you are limited to 15 save files, period, or less. On the Saturn I can have 250 files on one cart, even you can have 80 of them on one memory card with large saves from strategy and racing games.

Lunar saves are 8kb on the Saturn too, though I'm not sure which Lunar it is. Madou Monogatari (an RPG game) takes 4kb. Panzer Dragoon Saga saves are less than 2 kbytes. The save for Keio Flying Squadron 2 is a whooping 48 bytes (plus a few more bytes for the header).

Well, you tell me why Dragon Force takes up so much space on the Saturn cart, while 3 save files from Front Mission 3 (on the Playstation) hardly uses 24 blocks? They both have a lot of stats to track, yet Dragon Force requires a huge file, just for one save.

I have 2 MGS files on one of those cards, It's not taking up a lot of space, with just 8 blocks per save. And those are the only game saves I have for the PlayStation. Like I'd said, my PS with its memory cards got stolen, maybe around 2001. I did have about a 70% completed save file for Gran Turismo on one of those cards and it still had saves from other games.

zyrobs
07-26-2020, 04:35 PM
Well, you tell me why Dragon Force takes up so much space on the Saturn cart, while 3 save files from Front Mission 3 (on the Playstation) hardly uses 24 blocks? They both have a lot of stats to track, yet Dragon Force requires a huge file, just for one save.

Probably for the same reason why a Sim City 2000 save fits into 32k on the Saturn, but sometimes doesn't even fit in 128k on the Playstation? Maybe Dragon Force tracks more stats than you know of, or perhaps it does so very inefficiently?


I have 2 MGS files on one of those cards, It's not taking up a lot of space, with just 8 blocks per save.

So basically each save is more than half the entire cart, gotcha.

gamevet
07-26-2020, 04:48 PM
Probably for the same reason why a Sim City 2000 save fits into 32k on the Saturn, but sometimes doesn't even fit in 128k on the Playstation? Maybe Dragon Force tracks more stats than you know of, or perhaps it does so very inefficiently?

That's exactly the point. You can see all of the RPGs I had on that one Saturn cart. Just about every one of them had a significant size save file.




So basically each save is more than half the entire cart, gotcha.

I meant 8k and you should know that, if you really had the game save on a PlayStation.


Just to check it out. I saved a replay of a 4 lap time trial for Gran Turismo 2. It took up a measly 24k. That's much smaller than any of the replays on the Sega arcade racing games on the Saturn.

https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15529&d=1595794037

zyrobs
07-26-2020, 05:13 PM
That's exactly the point. You can see all of the RPGs I had on that one Saturn cart. Just about every one of them had a significant size save file.

So 2 MGS saves are still 13.3% of the cart, but that's okay, while 4 Dragon Force saves taking 15% is very bad.
And you have 80+ saves in your screenshots which would need minimum of 6 PSX memory cards, probably more since we are talking about big files.

I'm sorry, but I lost track of what we are arguing about.


I meant 8k and you should know that, if you really had the game save of a PlayStation.
Yeah and you can take snapshots in it which are 1 block each iirc, so you can have that game only eat up an entire memory card.

gamevet
07-26-2020, 05:31 PM
Take the time to think what you're saying. Many Saturn games may use a save file, but don't save actual game progress. For example Panzer Dragoon Zwei use a file ,but doesn't save actual stage progression, and so you don't need to save to complete the actual game at all , it makes no difference if you do or not..

Play Virtual Cop and it doesn't save player progression, so you don't need to save to actually finish the game, same for VF, X-Men COTA, Souky, RSG and hundreds of Saturn games , even SEGA Rally for a little irony.

So many Arcade style Saturn games would just use a save file to hold data on times or extras given to the player for finishing the game, but not on how far a player is in the game in question, I knock the Saturn off in EP 4of Panzer Dragoon Zwei that's it and need to start again from the start next time I play

So while you need to save to finish Exhumed , it's not needed at all for Panzer Dragoon , Clockwork Ect, Ect..

You're ignoring what I'd said. That just about all of the Sega Arcade racers let's you save a ghost driver for Time Attack, except the original Daytona. It was when I got Daytona CCE, that I discovered that I could not save my time trial, because I had ran out of storage space. That is when I decided to get another cart. I showed you every file on that cart, and lot of them were not your measly 4 or 8 block variety. Even Sega's own Virtua Fighter 2 (Which every other Saturn owner has) takes up over 200 blocks. Just the save file for Sega Rally 95 is 80 blocks, before having a Ghost save. HOTD uses 19 blocks, btw.

I just played Time Attack on Sega Rally 95, Sega Touring Car Championship, Manx TT Super Bike and I already had a Time Attack save on that extra cart. Those 4 titles, with just one Ghost save each, took up half of the cart space.


https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15530&d=1595795137


https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15531&d=1595795145


https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15532&d=1595795157


https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15533&d=1595795170

gamevet
07-26-2020, 05:33 PM
So 2 MGS saves are still 13.3% of the cart, but that's okay, while 4 Dragon Force saves taking 15% is very bad.
And you have 80+ saves in your screenshots which would need minimum of 6 PSX memory cards, probably more since we are talking about big files.

I'm sorry, but I lost track of what we are arguing about.


Yeah and you can take snapshots in it which are 1 block each iirc, so you can have that game only eat up an entire memory card.

Arguing that you can fit saves for 100 games on a single Saturn cart, which is only 512K, btw. That's equal to 4 PlayStation Memory cards.


This thing would have taken care of all of my game save files, had it not died. It has 8 Mega-bits of storage space.


https://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15534&d=1595796138

zyrobs
07-26-2020, 06:19 PM
Arguing that you can fit saves for 100 games on a single Saturn cart, which is only 512K, btw. That's equal to 4 PlayStation Memory cards.

You have 80 files in one of your carts with still over a thousand blocks free, I have 88 in my actual console, and it's only 2/3 full, and I just made a cart with an editor that can fit 250 files. So yeah, it seems to me we can have 100+ saves on that cart.

Sure, if you only put ghost car data on it, you can't use that man. But if you only play Populus 3 on the PSX, then you need a new memory card per each single save, so it's the same damn thing. And if you make 15x 1kbyte saves on the PSX, the cart is full despite you using only an eighth of the space on it, due to the wasteful block system.

Again I don't see what we are arguing.

gamevet
07-26-2020, 06:40 PM
100 saves. Not saves for 100 games. I moved the racing games over to my other cartridge and just left the save data for Sega Rally(80) and Touring Car Championship (222). That cart only has 1912 blocks left, for less than 46 games. Warcraft 2 (433), would not even fit in the internal memory of the Saturn. I might be able to get another 30 saves for who knows how many games, but if I put games on there like Tomb Raider, Nights, WSBB 98, Madden 98, NHL 98, or Pebble Beach Golf, it's not even going to get close.

I did point out that Sony did make official 1Mb and 2Mb cards for the PlayStation. So, that option was available.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-Playstation-1-Memory-Card-2MB-Grey-PS1-Official-30-Blocks-Box-Genuine-LOT-/283018499752

Blades
07-26-2020, 10:05 PM
I just realized, that I'd lost my other memory card (Final Fantasy VII saves) when my Playstation was stolen in the 90s.

Even the thieves knew the Saturn's memory architecture is inferior.


The internal memory is meant to be a temporary solution so you can still play games without needing to cash out for a memory cart. Not a long term solution for your saves, and not something meant to hold 4793 ghost car replays.

You can buy a save cart if you require those.

Temporary?? I've already 'cashed out' by buying the memory on the Saturn itself. Do you think onboard memory grows on trees and is free for some reason compared to external memory? The Saturn cost $100 more than the PSX, and the price difference was even larger in terms of manufacture. WASTEFUL.


The alternative is that the console cannot save at all, only on memory carts, like on the Playstation, which cost you or your parents a lot of extra money.

Again, you are mixing things and making misleading comparisons to spin things your way. The parent already saved $100 by buying the PSX, and for $20 can have a better and "long-term" memory solution, and still come out ahead in terms of cost. WASTEFUL.


So including a small internal memory is better for the consumer because they can enjoy RPGs at the cost of a cr2032 battery every few years, instead of buying an entire memory cart.

What a waste of batteries.


How the hell would you have kept the clock going, if not with a battery?

Why does it need a clock?? It's a game console not a VCR. If you're using the Saturn as a clock there is something deeply wrong with you. If it must have a clock it can feed off the AC like a VCR, but no the clock is set to hold your saves as ransom.


Again I don't see what we are arguing.

The question is which system is better for the consumer. You are saying it's the Saturn due to smaller blocks allowing you to store 5,000 Tetris high scores. I'm saying it's the PSX because a) it's larger b) it doesn't self-destruct every year by design c) it's expandable d) it's possible to backup e) it isn't tied to each system.

Oh, and you couldn't handle someone else having a different perspective like a baby and had to have a mod tell you to chill the fuck out.

But sure, enjoy your smaller blocks. Oh, and Sony won the market too in case you didn't know. But that's probably Sony's fault too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhrLrBT2hp0

gamevet
07-26-2020, 10:24 PM
Even the thieves knew the Saturn's memory architecture is inferior.

Lucky for me, the thieves probably didn't even know what a Saturn was. They stole my N64, PlayStation and Dreamcast. Those dumbasses were in for quite a shock with the PlayStation titles, because they had taken a bunch of empty CD cases. The discs were sitting in a CD holder case, which they had just left sitting on the livingroom floor.

Blades
07-26-2020, 10:48 PM
Lucky for me, the thieves probably didn't even know what a Saturn was. They stole my N64, PlayStation and Dreamcast. Those dumbasses were in for quite a shock with the PlayStation titles, because they had taken a bunch of empty CD cases. The discs were sitting in a CD holder case, which they had just left sitting on the livingroom floor.

Sorry to hear. I hope they didn't take anything else.

gamevet
07-26-2020, 11:35 PM
Sorry to hear. I hope they didn't take anything else.


We had renter's insurance. I made sure that I padded the list enough to make back the losses from the deductible and depreciation. I'm thinking that it was closer to the end of 2001, because I'd used some of the money to buy a GameCube with Rogue Squadron 2. I'm kind of disappointed with myself for not replacing GigaWing 2 on the DC. That game shot up in price shortly after 2003.

Team Andromeda
07-27-2020, 02:53 AM
The PlayStation did have larger 3rd party, as well as 1st party save cards available.

So you did for the Saturn. Datel had a 8 MEG Back-Up memory Cart for the same price as the official SEGA one in 95. The only trouble was the memory of storage in different blocks/sectors not one complete unit and so features like Ghost replays couldn't be used. Issues one would get with the latter Action replay Cart's too.

Team Andromeda
07-27-2020, 02:58 AM
Dude, seriously! Quit posting stupid shit. The 1st Ridge Racer sucked ass. You could beat it without once touching the brakes. I bought and sold the game 3 times.

There is no Time Attack in the original Daytona USA on the Saturn.

RR is a classic for some and was an Arcade sensation. Also, there is a Time Attack option in Saturn Daytona USA. HOLD Start on the Transmission screen to get the option, you even get a lovely bit of call speech shouting out "Time Attack" too.

Team Andromeda
07-27-2020, 03:05 AM
Temporary?? I've already 'cashed out' by buying the memory on the Saturn itself.

Yep, You had 2 to 3 years to save up for a Memory Cart :p


What a waste of batteries.

What compared to the DC VMU waste of batteries? Play any of the mini-games on the VUM and your '2' CR32's be lucky to see the week out and you would get that annoying peep on startup. Never mind you had to buy the VMU to save games, the memory was low and also the Main Battery inside the DC was poor, given anytime you actually unplugged the DC for a length of time, you would get the annoying clock screen on boot up. Still not as bad as with the OG Xbox, where just unplugging the console for a couple of hours, meant the clock and date data was lost.

Blades
07-27-2020, 04:15 AM
Yep, You had 2 to 3 years to save up for a Memory Cart :p

Or Sega could've made the Saturn correctly and I wouldn't have to waste my money fixing their mistake.


What compared to the DC VMU waste of batteries?

Dreamcast does not lose memory contents when the batteries run out like on Saturn. Again, don't mix things together to make them seem confusing.

Team Andromeda
07-27-2020, 04:57 AM
Or Sega could've made the Saturn correctly and I wouldn't have to waste my money fixing their mistake.


Please explain how buying a memory card for the Saturn is anyway inherently different from the need to buy a memory card for the PS?


Dreamcast does not lose memory contents when the batteries run out like on Saturn

You were talking about a waste of batteries. How long does the CR32's in the DC VMU last, a year?.
Overlooking the point that just buying the memory card meant you wouldn't lose any of your Saturn saves and if something you had to do to save data on the DC . Maybe SEGA needed to have put a warning that the battery was getting low message promt on the Saturn, would have been a nice fix

My biggest issue with the memory on the Saturn was how the Official Cart wasn't as reliable as the SONY one . One would get bad and corrupted sectors. I put that down the constant swapping of my 1 Meg, 4 Meg Carts and the need to use the Pro Uni Adaptor on my Grey Saturn to play US/UK games early in. Every time I looked to put the memory card back in, I got a bad sector and once lost all the save data and had to rest the cart, which I now know could have been fixed by cleaning the pins, back in 98 I didn't know of such fixes

Blades
07-27-2020, 05:08 AM
Please explain how buying a memory card for the Saturn is anyway inherently different from the need to buy a memory card for the PS?

I've already done so, refer to my posts above.


You were talking about a waste of batteries. How long does the CR32's in the DC VMU last, a year?

First of all, they last way less than a year. When I was a kid I had the Chao pet thing from Sonic Adventure and I'd say they lasted about 2-3 weeks.

And yes if you actually use the VMU they are as wasteful as the Saturn if not more. However, the question is about memory. The VMU's memory storage is unaffected by batteries, unlike the Saturn. There's really no better solution for the VMUs, they need a power source to function detached from the console.

Team Andromeda
07-27-2020, 08:42 AM
I've already done so, refer to my posts above.


You haven't really. Overlooking the Saturn Internal memory save. You had the option to buy the Memory Back up cart, something which you had to do to save a game on the PS. Why is ok for the need to buy a memory card on the PS, but not on the Saturn?. I know you might high back with the price. No idea in the USA, but in the UK the Cart was £40 Vs £30 for the SONY one (A little more or less depending on the shop) and also offered far more storage too

https://i.imgur.com/GL2wNv2.jpg



First of all, they last way less than a year.

Very wasteful then?


The VMU's memory storage is unaffected by batteries, unlike the Saturn

Neither is the Saturn Memory card, but never mind (and it also had more storage than the VMU )

BonusKun
07-27-2020, 11:59 AM
It's not a moot point , since your best lap times and fastest laps in SEGA Rally are stored to the system memory and get a comparison for sector times every time you play ( no need for the memory cart) . I can't remember Ghost replays being in the sequel on any system either

There are many racers that even now don't have a ghost mode and that doesn't stop people improving their times . That's mainly done by playing the hell out of the game and learning the track and when to attack a corner and when to break

I'm kinda curious also. How the hell do you have 400 saves?


Oh, and you couldn't handle someone else having a different perspective like a baby and had to have a mod tell you to chill the fuck out.

Hey now. I'm trying to remain incognito!

gamevet
07-27-2020, 12:35 PM
RR is a classic for some and was an Arcade sensation. Also, there is a Time Attack option in Saturn Daytona USA. HOLD Start on the Transmission screen to get the option, you even get a lovely bit of call speech shouting out "Time Attack" too.

Iíll have to check that out. And no, I hate the 1st Ridge Racer with itís stupid fishtailing. Didnít care for the franchise until 4.

BonusKun
07-27-2020, 12:38 PM
Iíll have to check that out. And no, I hate the 1st Ridge Racer with itís stupid fishtailing. Didnít care for the franchise until 4.

Ridge Racer Type 4 is such a superior game.

Also the VMUs were a nice thing but I hated how fast it ate batteries. It was god awful. 2 CR2032s never lasted that long and generally I always thought Sega could have designed it better when shit like the Game & Watch stuff while much weaker in terms of power, lasted forever.

gamevet
07-27-2020, 01:38 PM
I played a little type 4 yesterday.

The screen on the VMU was rarely used. There was a gimmick with Skies of Arcadia, and using the screen to call plays in NFL2K, but other than that, I donít remember using it much. I get that they were trying to go for a Tomagochi pet kind of thing, but it was a pretty dead idea by then. I think I have around 7 VMUs, with every color except yellow.

Maybe I donít own just about every color. This is pretty cool, but not worth the price!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Dreamcast-Camouflage-Camo-NEW-VMU-Visual-Memory-Unit-LIMITED-EDITION-LOT-/273776950380

Blades
07-27-2020, 02:52 PM
Hey now. I'm trying to remain incognito!

Lol but you said it publicly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6unUaWhDPJQ


How the hell do you have 400 saves?

That's because he doesn't.

Team Andromeda
07-28-2020, 01:14 AM
Iíll have to check that out. And no, I hate the 1st Ridge Racer with itís stupid fishtailing. Didnít care for the franchise until 4.

It's there and I believe in the Model 2 Arcade version too. I've never liked RR series at all, well other than how super impressive RR looked on my import PSP back in the day.
But I know loads of fans of the game and many looked to better their times, since the 1st game

Team Andromeda
07-28-2020, 01:19 AM
It was god awful. 2 CR2032s never lasted that long and generally I always thought Sega could have designed it better when shit like the Game & Watch stuff while much weaker in terms of power, lasted forever.

The VMU's were a silly idea from the outset IMO. I only found them really useful when hiding what plays one was picking in NFL 2K but the lack of colour screen did make it harder to tell running or throwing plays. I know Sonic Shuffle made nice use of it, but the game wasn't the best. I also have no idea why SEGA didn't look to use a AAA battery instead. The whole design of the DC pad was a poor.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
07-28-2020, 06:11 AM
My favourite use of the Dreamcast's VMU was by Capcom for Resident Evil 2. Showing both your ammo count for your current gun and your health status was both clever and very helpful. It's just one of the reasons I regard the Dreamcast port of Resi 2 to be the ultimate version of the game.

gamevet
07-28-2020, 10:35 AM
Code Veronica had a heart beat, like an EKG.

BonusKun
07-28-2020, 11:46 AM
The VMU's were a silly idea from the outset IMO. I only found them really useful when hiding what plays one was picking in NFL 2K but the lack of colour screen did make it harder to tell running or throwing plays. I know Sonic Shuffle made nice use of it, but the game wasn't the best. I also have no idea why SEGA didn't look to use a AAA battery instead. The whole design of the DC pad was a poor.

God dammit TA, I want those Four-Hundred game saves! NOW!

gamevet
07-28-2020, 12:30 PM
:lol:

Blades
07-28-2020, 12:55 PM
We could put some money on this.

Ecco
07-28-2020, 02:11 PM
My DC VMU's never died, but I also never took them out of the controller and used them separately.

But IIRC, I've had the same saves on them for many years.

As for making good use of them: I was always impressed by Ecco: Defender of the Future, using the VMU screens.

There were many VMU pics corresponding with the game: VMU title screen, pause screen, death screen, etc. I haven't played in a while but I remember a ton of corresponding screens like that...

gamevet
07-28-2020, 03:29 PM
The batteries in the VMU are not for holding game saves. They are there for you to do things like Virtual pets outside of the controller. Tomagachi was a pretty big deal back in the late 90s.

The batteries die, even if you never removed the VMU from the controller.

Leynos
07-28-2020, 04:37 PM
My saves are still on a VMU and not put batteries in for years so yeah. The battery is just for the VMU to use the screen on the go. I love the idea of the VMU. As Gamevet mentioned it was on the back of something popular. At the time for me, it just added how forward-thinking DC felt like back then. Sony tried to get in on it with PocketStation in 1999 and of course, Nintendo did it with Pokemon.

Mega Drive Bowlsey
07-28-2020, 04:55 PM
Seeing my old save files on my Dreamcast's VMU makes me feel sad at the passing of time and how quick it goes. It's surreal looking at a save file you made 20yrs ago when you'd barely left school...

zyrobs
07-29-2020, 12:34 PM
100 saves. Not saves for 100 games.

I did show a pic with 240+ files on it, which is probably for 100+ games (there were like 70 fighting vipers replays there). I could probably get more there, but I really can't be bothered because your argument is stupid.

zyrobs
07-29-2020, 12:38 PM
Temporary?? I've already 'cashed out' by buying the memory on the Saturn itself. Do you think onboard memory grows on trees and is free for some reason compared to external memory? The Saturn cost $100 more than the PSX, and the price difference was even larger in terms of manufacture. WASTEFUL.

Just pretend to ignore the internal memory entirely, consider it nonexistant. Then you can say you haven't cashed out for any memory at all, and bam, now the console saves the same way as your PSX - nothing to use internally and you have to buy a save cart. This seems to be what you want.

Meanwhile I had my saves stored back in 1997 without having a save cart, and I could play and finish games that required it to save my progress, while I've heard many anecdotes of kids with no PSX save cards leaving their consoles on overnight to play RPGs.

Blades
07-29-2020, 02:02 PM
Just pretend to ignore the internal memory entirely, consider it nonexistant. Then you can say you haven't cashed out for any memory at all, and bam, now the console saves the same way as your PSX - nothing to use internally and you have to buy a save cart. This seems to be what you want.

Except you still only have one slot and I've already bought internal memory.

It would be nice if I could just pretend things are the way I want when they're not. Unfortunately I'm not delusional.

Not to mention I would be nagged by that set clock screen every time I turned my Saturn on if I stopped changing the battery.


Meanwhile I had my saves stored back in 1997 without having a save cart, and I could play and finish games that required it to save my progress, while I've heard many anecdotes of kids with no PSX save cards leaving their consoles on overnight to play RPGs.

And how many of those saves from 1997 do you still have?


but I really can't be bothered because your argument is stupid.

*Sigh*

gamevet
07-29-2020, 04:46 PM
I did show a pic with 240+ files on it, which is probably for 100+ games (there were like 70 fighting vipers replays there). I could probably get more there, but I really can't be bothered because your argument is stupid.

I saw no damned pic with 240 save files for 100 games. You just showed the last page. I showed you 80 saves that nearly filled the cart, and the only reason it wasnít full, was because some files were moved to the second cart over 20 years ago. The combined saves of both carts is over 8,000 blocks.

Itís not stupid, because I had to buy a second cart. I ran out of room and didnít even have the option to save any time attack data at all. Hell, I showed you every save block on one cart, so itís not like a pulling BS out my arse like TA with his 400 games on one cart.

Ecco
07-29-2020, 11:46 PM
The batteries in the VMU are not for holding game saves. They are there for you to do things like Virtual pets outside of the controller. Tomagachi was a pretty big deal back in the late 90s.

The batteries die, even if you never removed the VMU from the controller.

Oh wow, that's wild. I always thought the VMU batteries were obviously for holding the saves. Then that leaves me wondering how they actually do hold saves then. I'll have to google it, lol.

xelement5x
07-31-2020, 12:42 PM
Oh wow, that's wild. I always thought the VMU batteries were obviously for holding the saves. Then that leaves me wondering how they actually do hold saves then. I'll have to google it, lol.

I believe the VMU actually writes to a small amount of flash memory for the saves, so it's power independent. Unlike the Saturn :(

gamevet
07-31-2020, 10:57 PM
The Saturn carts are the same way, just bigger.

Team Andromeda
08-01-2020, 06:35 AM
God dammit TA, I want those Four-Hundred game saves! NOW!

I love the sarcasm. To be serious for a moment one doesn't need to save every game or game settings and quite a few titles don't even support any save feature either (Astal, Deadlus, Clockwork, Die Hard Arcade Ect). But if one must... Here's the 200 saves I actually cared enough to save to the Cart back in the day: The rest was/are in system memory or I cared not, if the data was lost or I just couldn't play the game like for 3X3's, Let's Make a Baseball team and a ton of Japanese Saturn games, I bought back in the day and didn't look to save

https://i.imgur.com/l1Zfbma.jpg


Here's the Exhumed taken for the Memory Cart, it's still kept my save for all those years ago...

https://i.imgur.com/6DyjyBP.jpg

And here's most of my main Saturn stuff. Yes... it's well over a hundred short, but that's mainly because the rest are crappy Pal pick up's from the bargain bin and where the cases are just in terrible cond. It's bad enough for the Pal ones I actually bought brand new. It would be shameful to have them out on display and so they're in the store cupboard along with most of my old 8-Bit Mico and Mattel Intellivision stuff, but one can't complain when you're buying games like The Hulk on the Saturn for £2 LOL

https://i.imgur.com/U8xEDIQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xNO7s0L.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QgpLniO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/XKr7PIC.jpg

Team Andromeda
08-01-2020, 06:50 AM
I believe the VMU actually writes to a small amount of flash memory for the saves, so it's power independent. Unlike the Saturn :(

The Saturn had a Memory card too, that also wasn't powered dependent. So why the big fuss?
When you could have just done what DC and PS users had to to do in order to save a game and buy a memory card; It wasn't like the Saturn Back-Up memory was far more expensive either. Just £10 more than the SONY and the same price has the VMU Memory cart, while offering more storage.

This thread is nuts

Virtua Hunter
08-01-2020, 10:07 AM
Great collection TA !!! That Hyper Duel, wish I could've find one back in the day when prices were normal :(

I never seen a Saturn Memory card so full, it could store more than 230 games!!!

Back in the day I don't even had a backup ram since it wasn't needed, internal memory was enough :)

Saturn solution was way better than PS and Dreamcast, you have internal memory at no additional cost, and if you wanted you could buy a memory card with massive space at around the same price of a PS memory card or VMU, that didn't have any save space at all.

Team Andromeda
08-01-2020, 10:44 AM
Great collection TA !!! That Hyper Duel, wish I could've find one back in the day when prices were normal :(

I never seen a Saturn Memory card so full, it could store more than 230 games!!!

Back in the day I don't even had a backup ram since it wasn't needed, internal memory was enough :)

Saturn solution was way better than PS and Dreamcast, you have internal memory at no additional cost, and if you wanted you could buy a memory card with massive space at around the same price of a PS memory card or VMU, that didn't have any save space at all.

Thanks, mate. I got post 300 saves on the cart at one point, but that was at the expense of Ghost data from Rally like I said many of them weren't really needed anyway, especially for the Arcade ports and shooters, so deleted a few .

I got my Hyper Duel for £50 on its launch in Japan. The only Import game I had to really pay over the odds for was Psychic Assassin Taromaru; For which I paid £90, but bare in mind this was just after its release in Japan and where the standard import costs would be £50 to £60. But the moment the game came out, copies run dry and even my mate who's the boss for the Import shop I use, had to say sorry, but he had to ask the going rate, even £90 seems a bargin these days

Virtua Hunter
08-01-2020, 11:03 AM
Thanks, mate. I got post 300 saves on the cart at one point, but that was at the expense of Ghost data from Rally like I said many of them weren't really needed anyway, especially for the Arcade ports and shooters, so deleted a few .

I got my Hyper Duel for £50 on its launch in Japan. The only Import game I had to really pay over the odds for was Psychic Assassin Taromaru; For which I paid £90, but bare in mind this was just after its release in Japan and where the standard import costs would be £50 to £60. But the moment the game came out, copies run dry and even my mate who's the boss for the Import shop I use, had to say sorry, but he had to ask the going rate, even £90 seems a bargin these days

Yeah Sega rally Ghost saves took a lot of space, probably the biggest save files in Saturn? Even Shining Force 3 were 300 block if I remember correctly.

£50 for Hyper Duel, I probably never seen a copy with just one zero lol.

Taromaru was probably the first to reach some crazy prices, but I though it was random so so it was a matter of japanese stocks after all.
Yeah, with current prices I would jump in an istant if some of some rare games that I still miss would come for "just" £90.

Benjamin
08-01-2020, 11:41 AM
Pretty sure you're right on the Sega Rally ghost saves. I recall that eating up 956 blocks or something like that. Always seemed odd when SimCity 2000 took up 456 (or whatever the full Saturn offered). I'm grateful for the Saturn internal memory since it's the only reason I still have some saves after my cartridge erased everything. I'd generally say to go with first party products, but after that, I think any Saturn owner would be gambling using it over one of the other solutions which allowed for PC backups. I still miss my Daytona/Rally times and SimCity cities. :(

Team Andromeda
08-02-2020, 04:59 AM
Pretty sure you're right on the Sega Rally ghost saves. (

GT24 used over 1000 blocks for its ghost save, which was even more. Still, the game wasn't great and didn't look to use the ghost feature, nor did I for the likes of Manx TT, Touring Car (which was so poor). Hexen was the worst of all mind.. over 3000 blocks (thankfully it had a password system )


My biggest issue with the Saturn memory system was the Back-Up memory cart wasn't always reliable and prone to having issues and corrupt saves. Whereas the SONY one was near bulletproof

Team Andromeda
08-02-2020, 05:14 AM
Taromaru was probably the first to reach some crazy prices, but I though it was random so so it was a matter of japanese stocks after all.
Yeah, with current prices I would jump in an istant if some of some rare games that I still miss would come for "just" £90.

Yeah, almost the moment the game came out, it went up in value and not many Import shops had a copy. It's crazy to see the price it can get these days with a Spine. Even more crazy is what the likes of Western versions of Burning Rangers and the like can get. I remember in late 98 and early 99 when shops were more or less giving such titles away, to clear their stock.