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Chilly Willy
02-17-2009, 12:55 AM
Okay, after a LOT of work, here's beta 1 of Wolf32X. I completely reworked the "file" handling so that everything is in ROM, with no memory allocated other than static arrays used for things that change. No more memory corruption! This also slimmed things down a bit - Wolf32X now has 19 M Power!! That's 2.5 MB for those of us that laugh at the Mbit unit. ;)

The other major addition is working digital sound - this is fully tested on a real 32X. The sound is great and doesn't slow the game at all. I'll probably take a break before working on FM audio.

As usual, all the source is included. That includes the new unpacker I wrote to fully process the data files. It should work on the Wolf3D full files, as well as Spear of Doom shareware and full files. If there's a call for it, I'll compile a version of the SOD shareware.

EDIT: Went ahead and compiled SOD Shareware. The second link has BOTH Wolf3D and SOD Shareware.
EDIT 2009-02-21: Minor update - fixed six button controller support. Thanks to snake for the help!
EDIT 2009-03-09: Major update! Added FM sound effects and Load/Save!
EDIT 2009-03-11: Added auto-map. Read the readme for details.
EDIT 2009-06-07: Added mouse support.
EDIT 2013-06-28: Really should have added this at the time, but Wolf32X with Mode 1 CD support can be found at this post:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?6690-Wolf32X-finally-in-beta!&p=455745&viewfull=1#post455745
The very latest version is just the binaries and only doubles the size of the save ram to allow saving games played at the two highest skill levels:
W3D_SOD-bins.7z (http://www.mediafire.com/download/h10gvjlh1u8zoyr/W3D_SOD-bins.7z)

The post introducing Wolf32X + Mode 1 support shows how CD tracks should be arranged for the music to match the levels.
Note - this info is now in the readme.

EDIT: 2014-06-26: Bumped the sample rate from 14kHz to 21kHz. There shouldn't be any more squeal on anyone's 32X.
Wolf32X even older version (http://www.mediafire.com/download/egjlj27ud4sfvm5/Wolf32X-20140626.7z)
EDIT: 2014-07-10: Added FM music by gasega68k. Improved the Mode 1 CD support. Compressed saves for MED/EDMD owners.
Wolf32X older version (http://www.mediafire.com/download/dq36296affiyhf5/Wolf32X-20140710.7z)
EDIT: 2014-07-11: I lowered the compression level to improve the compression speed, and added support for two save games.
Wolf32X previous version (http://www.mediafire.com/download/fmzh99386yntbwy/Wolf32X-20140711.7z)
EDIT: 2014-07-12: Changed screen DMA to 16 byte block mode to use less bandwidth.
Wolf32X latest version (http://www.mediafire.com/download/5rpabuadg9f6i8d/Wolf32X-20140712.7z)

mick_aka
02-17-2009, 06:48 AM
Runs great at a smooth 60fps in Kega on my MacBook, great work again! :D

TmEE
02-17-2009, 07:35 AM
its far from 60FPS on real HW though, 20 perhaps...

anyway it runs great :D

Chilly Willy
02-17-2009, 08:15 AM
It gets faster on real hardware as you shrink the view size (START+B+LEFT), but I think it's probably fast enough for most folks on the default view size. Spear of Destiny is noticeably slower than Wolf3D on the 32X as it makes much great use of transparent sprites for drawing levels. At least, the first level is that way.

lilmul123
02-17-2009, 08:47 PM
Oh, my.

Someone needs to figure out how to get this loaded through SegaCD.

Tears of Ash
02-17-2009, 10:01 PM
That seems sound. Not everyone has a Genesis flashcart (which will play 32x games if small enough, if I'm not mistaken) but most people who own a 32x will probably have a Sega CD as well.

*shrug*

I'd just like an opportunity to try it out. That seems to be the best way.

Joe Redifer
02-17-2009, 10:56 PM
Chilly Willy is powerful. He can do it. He just needs the time.

Chilly Willy
02-18-2009, 01:06 AM
One thought I have on a 32X+CD version is to move all the drawing the the MD side. The stats from the cart version are CODE+DATA+BSS is about 300 KB. The 32X only has 256 KB of SDRAM. Right now, the code and game data are in the ROM. However, 64000 bytes of that BSS is a screen buffer for the game to draw into. If the drawing is moved to the MD side, that buffer does as well. So the CODE+DATA+BSS is about 240 KB. I can probably squeeze that in.

In the cart version, when you do something like draw a wall segment, the program calculates where the segment is and where to draw it on the display, then draws it. The data for the drawing comes from ROM. For the CD version, I could instead send the results of where the segment is and where to draw it to the MD side and let it do the drawing. It would pull the data from the CD RAM instead of ROM (which isn't available). At that point, the issue becomes whether or not the data is available in the CD RAM. You've only got about 740 KB of RAM available, not MBs like in the ROM. Granted, not ALL the data has to be available at one time, but even just the data for a single level can be BIG.

The biggest part of that data is a the sprites. There are 437 total sprites in the SW version of W3D, each of which are 4 KB. Unless a level is pretty simple, it could have a significant number of those sprites. There are also 104 wall textures which are also 4 KB each. Compressing them in any significant way would be out of the question - the 68000 isn't fast enough to decompress graphics on the fly. One thing that COULD be done is to simply cut the texture size in half vertically and horizontally. Then they only take 1 KB instead of four. That's a much more manageable value. It would also make the graphics more blocky looking. You could simply settle for loading the textures as needed, but remember that the SCD uses a VERY slow CD. Things would simply stop for maybe several seconds while data was fetched from the CD.

Anyway, I'm still looking into things. Just sharing some thoughts about the work required in making a 32X+CD version.

matteus
02-18-2009, 09:32 AM
I seriously don't think 32x CD is possible without having a major cut in the quality department it's ashame but I guess at some point you have to accept that the hardware just wasn't built for the purpose...

But keep up the thinking chilly you've done a grand job thus far!

lilmul123
02-18-2009, 12:15 PM
How were they able to make that Sonic Remix game run off a Sega CD? That was first created as a cartridge ROM.

TmEE
02-18-2009, 12:19 PM
Sonic 1 and 2 have had a ton of research behind them.... 5+ years I think

Bablefish
02-18-2009, 04:10 PM
I know of another way to play the game without the expense of a flash cart. How about a modded PSP? A friend just started to do them, and I was thinking of having mine done.

http://www.emulator-zone.com/doc.php/psp/forthepsp.html

lilmul123
02-18-2009, 04:17 PM
That's not the point. I could just as easily play it on my computer, but I don't want to!

It's hard to explain, but the experience of having the actual system play something that wasn't officially made for it is just awesome.

Bablefish
02-18-2009, 06:15 PM
You might be surprised by this, I agree with you. But then there comes a point...you seen how much a Genesis Flash Cart costs? Sadly is comes down to money. Which I don't have that much to spare.

I give 3 BIG CHEERS to Chilly Willy for creating a brand new 32X game...so Okay it's a port. But it shows you what kind of fan he is. One with real smarts!!!

Chilly Willy
02-18-2009, 06:16 PM
@lilmul123: They were able to get Sonic 1 & 2 running on the CD because they're SMALL. 1 is only 512 KB, and 2 is only 1 MB. A little minor tweaking, especially with the audio, and it's not a problem. Games like Wolf3D are completely different. As mentioned, we've got 437 sprites of 4 KB each that could potentially all show on a level. That's over 1.5 MB of data that has to be accessible at all times to keep the game running. Toss another 100 wall textures on top for another half meg of space. It's considerably more than the ENTIRE Sonic 1 & 2 put together.

@Bablefish: There isn't a 32X emulator for the PSP yet. PicoDrive is the best SEGA emu for the PSP, and it's Genesis/CD only. A 32X emulator would be cool, though. :)

Tears of Ash
02-18-2009, 07:37 PM
I know of another way to play the game without the expense of a flash cart. How about a modded PSP? A friend just started to do them, and I was thinking of having mine done.

http://www.emulator-zone.com/doc.php/psp/forthepsp.html

I have my PSP modded. I can't seem to find any emulators that play 32x games. Picodrive plays Sega CD games pretty damn well, but the PSP version doesn't do 32x.

Bablefish
02-19-2009, 06:19 PM
You could be wrong Zophar.net claim they have one http://www.zophar.net/consoles/psp/genesis/picodrive-v1-51.html

Chilly Willy
02-19-2009, 06:34 PM
You could be wrong Zophar.net claim they have one http://www.zophar.net/consoles/psp/genesis/picodrive-v1-51.html

Whoever submitted it to Zophar made a mistake. That version added SVP support, not 32X. The SVP support is also really slow still as it is translated, not dynamically recompiled.

That's the version I currently have on my PSP. It's the best Genesis/CD emulator out, playing virtually everything at full speed. But no 32X.

Tears of Ash
02-19-2009, 11:09 PM
Picodrive is the best!

I think they said that one day they plan on adding 32x support.

MN12BIRD
02-19-2009, 11:27 PM
Wow I would say the digital SFX sound better now and I think its running a bit faster too! Awesome.

Bablefish
02-20-2009, 11:46 AM
I did check around and will fully admit your right. But I did check out those PSP hack forums and yes a 32 X emulator is in the works.

17daysolderthannes
02-20-2009, 04:25 PM
Picodrive is the best!

I think they said that one day they plan on adding 32x support.

is Picodrive the best PSP Genesis emulator? I've been using DGEN 1.70 Lite and it leaves a bit to be desired (frame sync is ALL off, sonic remains a blue ball through a whole jump for example). While we're at it, could you list the best PSP emulator for each system (NES, SNES, Genesis, MAME) and the newest version so I can google it? I tried to find it the ol fashioned way, but non-PC emulators always get grouped in as Warez and it makes it hard to really find any info on them.

Tears of Ash
02-20-2009, 05:31 PM
I'll pm them to you, so as not to derail the thread much more.

doomguy
02-23-2009, 06:30 PM
wow this has to be made into a cart! i know it would be hard but i would pay new game prices for it any day well so long as their is a pal version and im sure most people who own a 32x would buy it to i never thought anybody would make a homebrew 32x game

KnightWarrior
03-01-2009, 12:41 AM
When will we see the Final Bulid??

Chilly Willy
03-01-2009, 07:54 AM
I'm still playing around with the music and adlib sound effects. So there's at least one more beta before it becomes final. I'm also doing some research into making a 32X/CD version.

mick_aka
03-01-2009, 12:53 PM
Saturn port? ;)

Chilly Willy
03-01-2009, 06:10 PM
Saturn port? ;)

That would be after the 32X/CD version, as it would be closer to how you'd do something on the Saturn (loading from the CD and all).

Chilly Willy
03-09-2009, 07:38 AM
Okay, here's beta 3. This is a pretty major update, adding FM sound effects and Load/Save game ability. You only get one save. The Load/Save menu still shows ten, but they all just do the same thing. There's only room in the SRAM for one save game. Since there's no keyboard and I don't want to make the effort to add an on-screen keyboard, the save tag is set to the map name automatically. That way you can at least tell what level you saved on. START + X is now Quick Load, and START + Y is Quick Save. For three button controllers, just use the menu to load/save.

The FM sound effects are synthesized before compiling using the MAME YM3812 OPL emulation. That is the way FM sound effects are played in most ports of Wolf3D, they just do it on the fly. There is a bug in the OPL emulation. Have you seen reports on the PSP version of Wolf3D that certain FM sound effects are missing? They're not missing, just very VERY quiet due to a bug in the OPL emulation. I scale certain sounds while they're being generated so that they are audible in Wolf32X. The volume is probably wrong, but I think they sound like they should. I'll be looking into this more.

Next up, music! :D

kool kitty89
03-10-2009, 07:34 AM
All the sound effects are programmed for the YM2612? (or emulation thereof)

Some of the sound effects sound more like the coarse squere wave sound of the PSG than FM.

Chilly Willy
03-10-2009, 08:06 AM
All the sound effects are programmed for the YM2612? (or emulation thereof)

Some of the sound effects sound more like the coarse squere wave sound of the PSG than FM.

That's because, as I mentioned, they're pre-generated... at 7 kHz to match the built-in digital samples already in the game. That made it easy to play the FM sfx - I just pass the new digital sounds to the regular digital sound handling code. Using the FM or PSG chips wouldn't be the same as the 3812, and would get in the way of using the FM/PSG for playing the music.

kool kitty89
03-10-2009, 05:41 PM
Oh, OK.

On the actual hardware, digital samples are done through channel 6 of the YM2612 (in PCM mode), correct?

You're not planning on utilizing any of the 32X's added audio hardware, right? (added 2x PWM channels IIRC, but was difficult to program for, many games not using it at all; with few, if any, really taking full advantage)

Chilly Willy
03-10-2009, 06:56 PM
Oh, OK.

On the actual hardware, digital samples are done through channel 6 of the YM2612 (in PCM mode), correct?

You're not planning on utilizing any of the 32X's added audio hardware, right? (added 2x PWM channels IIRC, but was difficult to program for, many games not using it at all; with few, if any, really taking full advantage)

All digital sound is through the 32X PWM channels. They're better for playing digital samples than the FM DAC, plus using the FM DAC for sound effects means you lose a channel that could have been used for playing music.

The 32X PWM is really easy to use. Not sure why people think it's hard. It's ideal for digital sound as it has a FIFO so that you can maintain a perfect sample rate with only a little amount of CPU time. I use the slave SH2 to handle the digital sound effects. It scales and sums up to eight stereo sound effects, then feeds the samples to the PWM as space in the FIFO opens.

Depending on the kind of audio you have to play, you can use the 68000 or the Z80 to do the PWM as well. For example, if all you had to play was a single ADPCM sample, you could easily have the Z80 do that.

Joe Redifer
03-10-2009, 10:57 PM
Wow, I didn't even know anything in the Genesis could touch anything in the 32X, let alone the Z80!

Chilly Willy
03-10-2009, 11:17 PM
Wow, I didn't even know anything in the Genesis could touch anything in the 32X, let alone the Z80!

Most of the control registers (which includes the sound) can be set by the 68000, and some can be set by the Z80. The sound OUTPUT FIFO can be set by the Z80, but not the sound control. The Z80 can also write to the framebuffer, but since it writes a byte at a time, you cannot write 0x00 to the framebuffer using the Z80 since 0x00 written as a byte to the framebuffer is always ignored. So if you used the Z80 for drawing, you'd have to use the 68000 or SH2 to clear the framebuffer initially (either manually, or by starting a VDP fill operation). The Z80 cannot write the 32X palette as those regs HAVE to be set in a single word write.

Now THAT would be odd - a 32X game where the graphics were done by the Z80. :D

Joe Redifer
03-11-2009, 01:59 AM
Can the 68000 access the 32X palette?

Chilly Willy
03-11-2009, 02:20 AM
Can the 68000 access the 32X palette?

Yes. Pretty much everything except the SDRAM is directly accessible to the 68000. When the 32X is initialized, the 68000 clears everything before reseting the SH2s to start them up. Some games treat the 32X merely as a way of getting better video on a regular Genesis. It's easier for some folk to just keep doing everything with the 68000, and either ignore the SH2s completely, or just use them for something like just playing audio.

Joe Redifer
03-11-2009, 02:26 AM
Which games do you know of where pretty much everything is handled by the 68000? Or is that like almost every 32X game?

Chilly Willy
03-11-2009, 03:04 AM
Which games do you know of where pretty much everything is handled by the 68000? Or is that like almost every 32X game?

As far as I know, most 32X CD games are that way. Also, Knuckles Chaotix is supposed to be virtually all 68000, barely using the 32X at all, even for graphics.

Doom is like Wolf32X (or should I say that the other way around? ) - mostly master SH2 with a little 68000/slave SH2 on the side.

kool kitty89
03-11-2009, 03:48 AM
Chaotix uses the 32X for the sprite scaling, right?

And thanks for the correction on the sound programming, I'd gotten the impression from wikipedia's description. (as well as some of the games, though in DOOM's case the PWM samples sound quite nice, it's the FM synthesized music -I assume done through the YM2612- that's awful)
Also, I was correct about there being two PWM channels added from the 32X?

Is the statement about the 32X being particularly difficult to program for also false? (or is this only if you try to use both SH-2's together?)

Chilly Willy
03-11-2009, 10:00 AM
Chaotix uses the 32X for the sprite scaling, right?

Right.


And thanks for the correction on the sound programming, I'd gotten the impression from wikipedia's description. (as well as some of the games, though in DOOM's case the PWM samples sound quite nice, it's the FM synthesized music -I assume done through the YM2612- that's awful)

I've heard conflicting info on the music in Doom. I also haven't checked into it.


Also, I was correct about there being two PWM channels added from the 32X?

There is a left channel, a right channel, and a mono channel. However, the mono channel just sets both the right and left channels to the same thing at the same time. It's there so that if you're only doing mono, you only have to store one word instead of two, thus cutting the bus activity in half. That would be especially important if you were using the Z80 to write the sound data.



Is the statement about the 32X being particularly difficult to program for also false? (or is this only if you try to use both SH-2's together?)

At first glance, it looks hard. If you don't try to push it too far, it's not that hard. It's when you do things like use both SH2s at the same time, and try to utilize the 68000/Z80 as well that it starts getting complicated. Even then, I haven't found it THAT hard. Of course, part of this depends on your experience in programming. I used to do assembly language programming on the Amiga, so this isn't too bad.

Chilly Willy
03-11-2009, 11:27 PM
Okay, I lied. Music wasn't next - I added an auto-map! :D

Read the README!!

The Jackal
03-12-2009, 09:34 AM
What's the download link?

Chilly Willy
03-12-2009, 04:38 PM
What's the download link?

First post - beta 4. Like all good authors, I keep all the releases in the first post so they can be found easily. If I did like some folk and put the release in a post in the thread, you'd have to hunt through the entire thread looking for versions. :)

The Jackal
03-13-2009, 07:54 AM
Cheers, Chilly!

Alvatron
03-18-2009, 12:17 AM
I must say this is beyond awesome. As others have mentioned in this thread, please release this on cart or CD. I would pay full retail price in an instant.

Maybe some day you could make a proper version of Doom for the 32X. I would buy it as well.

Excellent job!

Chilly Willy
03-18-2009, 04:37 AM
I must say this is beyond awesome. As others have mentioned in this thread, please release this on cart or CD. I would pay full retail price in an instant.

Maybe some day you could make a proper version of Doom for the 32X. I would buy it as well.

Excellent job!

Would that there were cheap flash carts that people could buy... I spent over $100 for the one I use for testing. I'm not about to have ROM carts made... especially given the licensing on this project. :D

I am working toward the CD version now, so that should help folks who have picked up a CD unit. Once I get that going, I will be looking into a new version of Doom 32X. W3D is mainly my learning project for figuring out how to make homebrew for the 32X and CD.

A Black Falcon
03-18-2009, 10:28 PM
Saving's in now? Hadn't noticed, awesome!

64KB SRAM, huh... it'd need a big one for a save-anywhere like that, wouldn't it.

For the Sega CD version, unless you make it require a CD Backup RAM Cart for saving, that 8KB internal save memory size might be an issue, even beyond the obvious major graphical problems... :)

And even the CD Backup RAM Carts are 'only' 128KB, and expensive, so having to use a full half of it for one save file wouldn't be great either.

Of course with emulators that's not a problem, but with emulators you can just run the 32X version.

Chilly Willy
03-19-2009, 12:27 AM
Saving's in now? Hadn't noticed, awesome!

64KB SRAM, huh... it'd need a big one for a save-anywhere like that, wouldn't it.

Actually, the save game is just a smidgen less than 32 KB, which is good because that's all you get from flash carts like the MD-Pro, despite them saying you get 64 KB. :p


For the Sega CD version, unless you make it require a CD Backup RAM Cart for saving, that 8KB internal save memory size might be an issue, even beyond the obvious major graphical problems... :)

And even the CD Backup RAM Carts are 'only' 128KB, and expensive, so having to use a full half of it for one save file wouldn't be great either.

Of course with emulators that's not a problem, but with emulators you can just run the 32X version.

Yes, the save game is an issue for the CD. I doubt it would fit in the built-in SRAM, even with compression, and then it would use most of the space. That's why games like Doom 32X use a code that you get at the end of each level completed. I suppose I could do something similar, but instead of a code, make that the save state. It would be MUCH smaller as I'd have much less data to keep track of. Of course, the issue then is you only get to save at the end of each level.

Tears of Ash
03-19-2009, 02:49 AM
Is the Sega CD version that you're working on regular Sega CD or is it 32X CD?

Chilly Willy
03-19-2009, 04:52 AM
Is the Sega CD version that you're working on regular Sega CD or is it 32X CD?

32X CD. I might take a stab at a plain SEGA CD version some time in the future, but not right away. The SEGA CD could handle it, but I'd need to do more work on the graphics... process the textures and sprites to use 16 colors and separate palettes. It would also not be in the same resolution. Instead of 320x200 like the 32X version is, I'd probably run the VDP in 256x224 mode and make the game screen 200x160.

matteus
03-19-2009, 10:51 AM
I'm probably being dope of the year here but what resolution did the SNES version of Wolf3D run at P 256x224, 512x224, 256x239, 512x239?

I'd never realised the mega drive had such poo resolutions by comparison: 256 x 224, 320 x 240

TmEE
03-19-2009, 11:57 AM
MD has 256/320 x 192(only on real HW and with some tricks)/224/240/448/480. And to comfort you, those higher res of SNES were used very infrequently, mainly because it requres too mcuh PPU resource so you can effectively use them for static things or only slightly dymanic things like menues.

And on MD you have Sonic2 2P in 320x448, and its not a menu but action :D

matteus
03-19-2009, 04:01 PM
MD has 256/320 x 192(only on real HW and with some tricks)/224/240/448/480. And to comfort you, those higher res of SNES were used very infrequently, mainly because it requres too mcuh PPU resource so you can effectively use them for static things or only slightly dymanic things like menues.

And on MD you have Sonic2 2P in 320x448, and its not a menu but action :D

always nice to have an expert present hehe :) Still do you know the SNES resolution of Wolf 3D Tiido?

Tears of Ash
03-19-2009, 05:06 PM
32X CD. I might take a stab at a plain SEGA CD version some time in the future, but not right away.

Awesome. I'm looking forward to the 32X CD version then.

Chilly Willy
03-19-2009, 06:40 PM
As far as I know, it was 256x224, but in low detail (pixels doubled horizontally), making it 128 wide. It's one of the major complaints in most reviews I've read about it (can't tell a bad guy from a vase at more than a few feet away :D ).

It's the same thing DOOM 32X did (run in low detail mode). It really helps the speed on such slow processors, but really lowers the display quality. Supposedly, early alphas of DOOM 32X didn't run in low detail mode. I don't plan to run in low detail in my version. Wolf32X doesn't. 320x224 is low-detail enough as it is. :D

tomaitheous
03-19-2009, 07:44 PM
IIRC, the res is 112x80 for SNES wolf 3D. It used BYTE pixel mode(8bit indexed color) and scaled the screen(play window) to 224x160 - which helped reduce processing overhead. All in game objects and enemies are software rendered too (no hardware sprites used for them).


I'm probably being dope of the year here but what resolution did the SNES version of Wolf3D run at P 256x224, 512x224, 256x239, 512x239?

256x224, 256x448, 512x224, 512x448. The higher vertical res modes are interlaced. The higher horizontal res mode is only for BGs. It does not effect sprites which are still rendered at a dot clock of 5.37mhz in relation to the BG. The higher res horiztonal modes eat up some PPU resource, thus restricting some of the effects the SNES is known for. I've only ever seen it used for text boxes/windows.

Vertical resolution is a more noticeable improvement in overall resolution to the human eye than horiztonal resolution increase, if the dot clock is ~5.37mhz or higher. Neither of the system would have benefited much from a higher res horizontal resolution and vertical resolution increase because the requirements of VRAM are quadrupled. As it is, running a 256x448 interlace mode is basically halving the VRAM in ratio aspect. It works well in Sonic 2 two player because both split screens have access to the same tiles and other sprites, etc and they are being display squished (half res).

Joe Redifer
03-20-2009, 04:07 AM
Which SNES games have an interlaced screen on them? I have never seen my SNES interlace, not even for a second.

tomaitheous
03-20-2009, 02:40 PM
Which SNES games have an interlaced screen on them?
I don't remember off hand, but very few. Like I said before, it's not very practical when it requires twice as much vram to display (tiles and sprites).



I have never seen my SNES interlace, not even for a second.

And if it weren't for Sonic 2, you'd probably never have seen it on your Genesis either. The same downside applies to the Genesis as well - requires twice as much vram for a correct aspect ratio. But it doesn't mean either systems can't output an interlaced signal.

A Black Falcon
03-20-2009, 03:50 PM
Actually, the save game is just a smidgen less than 32 KB, which is good because that's all you get from flash carts like the MD-Pro, despite them saying you get 64 KB. :p

Really? Then why is Kega's save file 64KB? I thought those files were usually the proper size...


Yes, the save game is an issue for the CD. I doubt it would fit in the built-in SRAM, even with compression, and then it would use most of the space. That's why games like Doom 32X use a code that you get at the end of each level completed. I suppose I could do something similar, but instead of a code, make that the save state. It would be MUCH smaller as I'd have much less data to keep track of. Of course, the issue then is you only get to save at the end of each level.

Hmm, I think that Doom 32X actually doesn't have any saving, and instead just lets you choose from any of the levels at the start. It doesn't have save memory or passwords or anything.

But anyway, something like that, saving between levels, is probably about the best you could do. Maybe also have a save anywhere' option as well for if you have a CD Backup RAM Cart inserted?

Chilly Willy
03-20-2009, 06:39 PM
Really? Then why is Kega's save file 64KB? I thought those files were usually the proper size...


Because SRAM is on every other byte, and save files of emulators simply store the whole range rather than worry about the "other" byte.



Hmm, I think that Doom 32X actually doesn't have any saving, and instead just lets you choose from any of the levels at the start. It doesn't have save memory or passwords or anything.

I was thinking of Doom PSX. I even cracked their code so you could give it made up codes that gave you weapons, armor, keys, different levels...

The idea still applies.


But anyway, something like that, saving between levels, is probably about the best you could do. Maybe also have a save anywhere' option as well for if you have a CD Backup RAM Cart inserted?

Yeah. That could be done.

A Black Falcon
03-20-2009, 07:58 PM
Because SRAM is on every other byte, and save files of emulators simply store the whole range rather than worry about the "other" byte.

Huh, weird. But the Sega CD files are the proper 8KB, not doubled... and I'm pretty sure that that is an 8KB space -- the CD Backup RAM Cart file is 128KB as it should be. Are all the 8KB cart SRAM files (probably the most common size) actually 4KB, or does this just apply to some files?


I was thinking of Doom PSX. I even cracked their code so you could give it made up codes that gave you weapons, armor, keys, different levels...

The idea still applies.

Ah, I see... yeah, definitely.


Yeah. That could be done.

Seems like the best solution, really. Keep the on-system one as small as possible and only between levels, but allow full saving if you have the card.

Chilly Willy
03-20-2009, 10:11 PM
Huh, weird. But the Sega CD files are the proper 8KB, not doubled... and I'm pretty sure that that is an 8KB space -- the CD Backup RAM Cart file is 128KB as it should be. Are all the 8KB cart SRAM files (probably the most common size) actually 4KB, or does this just apply to some files?

No idea off hand - I'd have to check the code out in the emu (if it's open source). I imagine it has to do with whether or not the emu recognizes the SRAM info in the ROM header as valid, and how it then interprets that info. There are two longs that give the start and end addresses of the SRAM, and a byte that gives the width and which byte is the one to read.



Seems like the best solution, really. Keep the on-system one as small as possible and only between levels, but allow full saving if you have the card.

Right. I need to get a CD SRAM cart sometime. :)

Joe Redifer
03-20-2009, 11:46 PM
And if it weren't for Sonic 2, you'd probably never have seen it on your Genesis either. The same downside applies to the Genesis as well - requires twice as much vram for a correct aspect ratio. But it doesn't mean either systems can't output an interlaced signal.

I know this. I just want to see a real, legit SNES game interlace (not a hacker demo) at some point. Were there any?

Alvatron
03-22-2009, 10:21 PM
I just wanted to say that even if you couldn't sell this on a cart or CD, I really like what you have done. This is excellent work, and I look forward to what else you can do on the system. Great job!

Chilly Willy
04-12-2009, 01:53 AM
Okay, a brief update for folks watching this...

I've got the cart reseting properly now. It also seems more stable starting up on real hardware. That version hasn't been posted yet as I'm still looking at music.

I'm currently working on the base code for the CD version... which is why I haven't got any music yet. Only so much time to spare. :)

Since the main change since the last beta is just the reset, I figure it isn't worth an update yet. If folks DO want that, just post and I'll spend a few minutes to make an update.

philiptwood
04-16-2009, 04:04 AM
Wow... I didn't think anyone was homebrewing for the 32X these days... I always felt that the release of the Saturn may have hendered the ensentive for game developers to really push the 32X.

The game looks pretty neat Fusion 3.61 emulator. Great stuff and very unexpected.

Tears of Ash
04-16-2009, 08:10 AM
My friend asked me today about which version of Wolfenstein to get, out of the blue.

I told him: Get the 32x version! :P

Diosoth
04-17-2009, 06:03 PM
This is something I'd look into if it were available on an actual cartridge.

doomguy
05-05-2009, 09:24 AM
Wonder how the cd version is coming along i cant wait to play it on the real console.

Chilly Willy
05-05-2009, 04:59 PM
I've got some other stuff I am working on right now, so it'll be a little while before I have time for the 32X stuff. Just delayed, not canceled. :)

retrospiel
05-05-2009, 06:35 PM
I demand a Saturn port ! =P

- seriously, I think that'd be awesome.



This is something I'd look into if it were available on an actual cartridge.

Legally, it'd be possible to produce & sell a cart with the shareware version.

Chilly Willy
05-05-2009, 11:35 PM
I demand a Saturn port ! =P

- seriously, I think that'd be awesome.

I need to pick up a Saturn some time. I probably will look into Saturn homebrew eventually, but I'll stick with 32X for the moment.



Legally, it'd be possible to produce & sell a cart with the shareware version.

Well, I'm not to sure about the legalities of selling shareware software... more like sell the cart, which just happened to have the shareware on it. It think that's how they do that at stores with the $5 shareware CDs: you're paying for the media and the work, not the game. With something like Wolf32X, I'd also have to make sure I followed the GPL and kept the game source available (not an issue for me since I do that anyway).

If I was interested in making some carts for the Genesis, it'd be a programmable cart. Seriously, the most expensive part is the PCB, so making rom carts is hardly cheaper that making flash carts. Flash carts would also sell better. :cool:

mrbigreddog
05-06-2009, 06:20 PM
I've got some other stuff I am working on right now, so it'll be a little while before I have time for the 32X stuff. Just delayed, not canceled. :)

What else are you working on? If you don't mind me asking....Is it homebrew related?

TmEE
05-06-2009, 07:45 PM
its probably called a strategy+role playing game called "Real Life" :P

Chilly Willy
05-06-2009, 08:09 PM
I'm (trying) to make a PPC OSX PSP toolchain for someone, something else I can't talk about, and EDuke32 for the PSP... in additional to RL. :D

If people watch ps2dev, they'll remember I made a PSP version of OpenAL a while back. That was part of what I was working on for EDuke32... which turns out to not really need it. OpenAL is only used on the Mac and Windows to mix the music buffers. Nothing else. Maybe they eventually plan to do full 3D sound effects in EDuke32 using it, but eventually isn't now. :)

Chilly Willy
06-07-2009, 03:56 AM
Okay, beta 5 is now posted. The main feature this time is mouse support. I know some folks hate playing a FPS with a pad, so now you can use your mouse... assuming you have one. :)

Melf
06-07-2009, 09:53 AM
If I dowload this to a flash cart, will it be Mega Mouse compatible? :p

TmEE
06-07-2009, 10:38 AM
there is a chance of getting mouse support......

it seems it should be there alreadt :P need to read posts more, lol

mrbigreddog
06-07-2009, 01:23 PM
Okay, beta 5 is now posted. The main feature this time is mouse support. I know some folks hate playing a FPS with a pad, so now you can use your mouse... assuming you have one. :)

ETA on 32xcd release?

Chilly Willy
06-07-2009, 04:31 PM
ETA on 32xcd release?

I'm debugging the CD base code, then I start modifying the Wolf3D code to run from CD.


If I dowload this to a flash cart, will it be Mega Mouse compatible?

Depends... I have the US mouse that comes with Wacky Worlds. From what I understand, the earlier Japanese mouse and the later European mouse are not the same. So if you have a Jap or Eur mouse, it might not work.

kool kitty89
06-07-2009, 10:33 PM
How's the music coming along?

mrbigreddog
06-07-2009, 11:33 PM
I know we're a few months to a year from Doom but when and if you implement CD track music.. Let me know! I want my band to remake the Doom Music! That would kick ass! And would be SO Down for doing it!

Melf
06-07-2009, 11:45 PM
Depends... I have the US mouse that comes with Wacky Worlds. From what I understand, the earlier Japanese mouse and the later European mouse are not the same. So if you have a Jap or Eur mouse, it might not work.

I have the US mouse.

Chilly Willy
06-08-2009, 12:54 AM
I have the US mouse.

Then it should work fine. The port doesn't matter either. Wolf32X will detect and use a pad and mouse in any port.

@kool kitty89 - I'm still undecided on how to handle it on the cart. I'd like to write a general purpose MIDI player. That would be handy for other projects as well. I just haven't had the chance to work on it.

@mrbigreddog - The CD versions of Wolf3D and Doom will play tracks off the CD, although I might have an option for playing MIDI tracks as well. So once the CD versions come out, feel free to make tracks for them. One thing to remember is that CD tracks take space - if you have tracks that average 3 minutes long, you're only going to get about 20 on a disc, depending on exactly how long they are, and how much space the program takes. So you may have to have some levels use the same track as another level. To make this easier, the programs will have a small file that will tell the game which track to play for which level. If you change the music, you just change the file as well. If/when I make the CD versions play MIDI, that same file will tell what MIDI file to play for the level.

kool kitty89
06-08-2009, 03:42 AM
Have you considdered asking TmEE about the music, he's got that sound engine he's been working on.

Chilly Willy
06-08-2009, 03:47 AM
Have you considdered asking TmEE about the music, he's got that sound engine he's been working on.

Yeah, I probably should. It's not like I have to do EVERYTHING myself.

mrbigreddog
06-08-2009, 01:07 PM
One thing to remember is that CD tracks take space - if you have tracks that average 3 minutes long, you're only going to get about 20 on a disc, depending on exactly how long they are, and how much space the program takes.

I got ya... The songs really won't be that long... they will just repeat alot... So it shouldn't take up too much space... Looks like most of the doom level songs are only about 1 min long... But I was thinking of completely rewriting them... Give them alot more of a evil dark sound... Not so upbeat!

Chilly Willy
06-08-2009, 04:27 PM
I see arguments both ways on the DoomWorld forums - some people think the original music is too upbeat for the game, and others can't stand music that isn't the same style as the original music. I've seen people swear the PSX Doom music is the greatest ever, and others that the PSX Doom music sucks. Oh well. It'll be interesting to see what you come up with.

kool kitty89
06-08-2009, 05:25 PM
There's always the arranged tracks from the 3DO version. ;)

And there are some other arranged versions out these too, like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lsg5IlwWtM&feature=PlayList&p=37898973FB848100&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14
(from the doom classic mod for Doom 3)

KnightWarrior
06-08-2009, 05:57 PM
when you finish the game on the SegaCD 32X..will it be a download or we be able to buy it

Chilly Willy
06-08-2009, 06:06 PM
Free download. The only image supplied will be for the shareware version. If you want a full version, you would need to generate your own level files from the original full-version. Tools will be supplied to do that. I'm not going to post a full version as I neither wish to run afoul of id, nor negotiate a license to sell the full version.

When I get Doom going, I'll probably have some images with the full version of FreeDoom, and maybe some TCs that use it. Again, the full version of the original Doom is not something you'll see from me.

moonmaster1
06-09-2009, 03:05 AM
just got done playing, accurate shooting is a bit difficult to pull off.

aside from that, this is a nice game. certainly much better than most of the other 32x games out there.

*I believe the only other good one (IMO) is mk2, but if you have the genesis version you really don't need anything else.*

Chilly Willy
06-09-2009, 04:18 AM
just got done playing, accurate shooting is a bit difficult to pull off.

That's the main reason I added mouse support. That's the most common complaint about using a joypad in a FPS - it's much harder to aim arcurately. With a mouse, it's not nearly so bad. A joypad has two speeds: medium, and fast. A mouse can be nearly any speed, making fine aiming easy.

Oh, if people have suggestions on the speed of the joypad (faster or slower for both normal and running), please feel free to make them. I haven't done a lot of "tuning" on the speed the player moves at, just enough to seem comfortable to me.


aside from that, this is a nice game. certainly much better than most of the other 32x games out there.

*I believe the only other good one (IMO) is mk2, but if you have the genesis version you really don't need anything else.*

Well, I like quite a few of the 32X games, but there isn't much depth to the library since SEGA cut off support so quickly. Hopefully we will see homebrew helping to increase the library. I've loved my 32X since I got it, which is one reason I'm working on 32X homebrew now. I've posted the "devkit" I use to compile Wolf32X, and hope that others can get some use from it as well. Also, anyone interested in doing their own 32X homebrew is welcome to email me about programming on the 32X. One part of the reason I picked Wolf3D to start with is that it's open source, so any 32X code I did for it could be used by others for other open source projects.

Da_Shocker
06-10-2009, 12:47 PM
just got done playing, accurate shooting is a bit difficult to pull off.

aside from that, this is a nice game. certainly much better than most of the other 32x games out there.

*I believe the only other good one (IMO) is mk2, but if you have the genesis version you really don't need anything else.*

MK2 wasn't that good IMO. It is the second best fighter after VF but when you are up against Primal Rage and Cosmic Carnage lol. Oh and WWF Arcade is solid.

philiptwood
06-10-2009, 11:39 PM
That's the main reason I added mouse support. That's the most common complaint about using a joypad in a FPS - it's much harder to aim arcurately. With a mouse, it's not nearly so bad. A joypad has two speeds: medium, and fast. A mouse can be nearly any speed, making fine aiming easy.

Oh, if people have suggestions on the speed of the joypad (faster or slower for both normal and running), please feel free to make them. I haven't done a lot of "tuning" on the speed the player moves at, just enough to seem comfortable to me.



Well, I like quite a few of the 32X games, but there isn't much depth to the library since SEGA cut off support so quickly. Hopefully we will see homebrew helping to increase the library. I've loved my 32X since I got it, which is one reason I'm working on 32X homebrew now. I've posted the "devkit" I use to compile Wolf32X, and hope that others can get some use from it as well. Also, anyone interested in doing their own 32X homebrew is welcome to email me about programming on the 32X. One part of the reason I picked Wolf3D to start with is that it's open source, so any 32X code I did for it could be used by others for other open source projects.

Where can I download... Did you have to use DOSbox or anything of that nature?

Chilly Willy
06-11-2009, 12:41 AM
The source is in the archive in the first post. The devkit is here:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/2/3/2304902/DevKit32X-090526.7z

It uses linux toolchains for the 68000 and SH2 compilers. There are Windows compilers for both, so a Windows devkit could be put together.

I tend to do primary testing via emulators (Gens/GS and KEGA Fusion), but I also have a flash cart and make sure things work on real hardware as well.

doomguy
06-13-2009, 12:16 PM
i was thinking about the doom port you are going to make. wouldnt it be easier to use whats their use the power of the mega cd and the fact the game isnt pushing the system much anyway to your advantage and put some split screen in their then for 1 player just make the enemys all sided and less pixelated and put the tunes from the 3do version in their and you would have the best port out their. that would also take alot less time than making a whole new port

Chilly Willy
06-13-2009, 05:29 PM
Err - that post didn't make a lot of sense. :daze:

Depending on how you split the tasks, Doom is demanding enough (processor wise) that you can't really do two-player on the same system, even if you can do spilt screen.

I do intend to have all the sprites. The problem with the CD 32X is a lack of memory. I'm going to have to compress the graphics data and uncompress it on the fly to make it fit, which just increases the amount of work the CPUs have to do.

Less pixelated means using high res sprites... which increases the amount of memory needed yet again. I am looking into it, though.

The way the CD 32X works, there's absolutely no existing port that would help. The way they made it work originally was by chopping a lot of stuff out. Given I don't want to do that, I have to find some other way to make it all fit, and existing DOOM source ports cater to the essentially infinite amount of memory a modern PC provides. Even something like the PSP port has 32 MB to play with. The CD 32X has less than 1 MB.

Da_Shocker
06-13-2009, 08:28 PM
Yo Chilly how good of port could the 32X really do of say a MKII or MK3.

Chilly Willy
06-13-2009, 08:40 PM
Well, they have lots of high-quality sprites for all the different moves and characters. You'd probably need a 64 Mb cart to really do it right. If you went the CD route, then it's a matter of how much can you fit in the limited ram. You'd probably need to use (lossy) compression on the sprites, much like I'm planning for Wolf3D/Doom. So that would affect the quality somewhat. On the plus side, the CD could have all the characters and cut scenes without having to drop anything.

xXxTWO FACExXx
06-17-2009, 11:44 PM
Hows Wolf32x coming?

Chilly Willy
06-18-2009, 12:25 AM
Hows Wolf32x coming?

Doing two things: debugging my CD base code; looking into some kind of music for the cart version.

T2KFreeker
07-09-2009, 02:20 AM
So, any other new stuff? I really want this game man. Hopefully it releases soon or my heads gonna' explode!:daze:

Chilly Willy
07-09-2009, 01:12 PM
Still experimenting with audio stuff. I'd like to get some music playing for the next release. If you've been watching SpritesMind, you'd see some releases I've made of demos of compressed audio playback via the Z80. Not sure if that will make it into Wolf32X, I think I'd rather have a MIDI player using the FM chip instead.

matteus
07-09-2009, 02:47 PM
yup i've been keeping eyes on it hehe I saw your amazingly hissy sound player :D hehe Sonic CD stuff doesn't actually sound too bad! you do get a bit of fizz still tho, I'd stick to Midi!

Chilly Willy
07-09-2009, 03:49 PM
Some songs compress rather well, and others are noisy. But what do you expect from 4:1 compression that plays in real-time on a Z80. :)

It's more suitable for other applications that Wolf32X. So on to MIDI playing.

matteus
07-09-2009, 03:52 PM
Sorry I didn't mean to sound like i'm discrediting your work at all! I'd imagine its hard work to get things out of the hardware but thats all part of the perk huh? Are you looking to compress heavily purely from a RAM saving point of view?

Chilly Willy
07-09-2009, 04:53 PM
Sorry I didn't mean to sound like i'm discrediting your work at all! I'd imagine its hard work to get things out of the hardware but thats all part of the perk huh? Are you looking to compress heavily purely from a RAM saving point of view?

I didn't take you comment that way, so don't worry about it. The main thing I'm looking at with the compression is when I work on CD versions - I won't have MBs of ROM to stick stuff into, so most of the data will have to be compressed, and in such a way as to be decompressible in real-time.

T2KFreeker
07-09-2009, 04:53 PM
Well, however long it takes man, just waiting to get my hands on the CD Release. I'm patient, to a degree.:p

matteus
07-09-2009, 05:04 PM
I didn't take you comment that way, so don't worry about it. The main thing I'm looking at with the compression is when I work on CD versions - I won't have MBs of ROM to stick stuff into, so most of the data will have to be compressed, and in such a way as to be decompressible in real-time.

A painfully hard thing to find a compromise on...

I can see the benefit of having CD versions from a distro point of view but the sacrifices on quality seem a little on the high side!

The compression was certainly a bit hit and miss depending on the track, will the CD be better than the original Cart or do you think it'll suffer on the sound but be graphically superior?

Update: Having listened to the cart version on youtube, I don't think you couldn't improve the sound!!! Fart Fart Fart

Chilly Willy
07-09-2009, 06:18 PM
Well, the CD gives you the chance to have really good music using the CDDA, so it would just be sound effects that would be compressed... which means it wouldn't be that bad. Also, the graphics for something like Wolf3D and Doom are pretty coarse, so compression won't be too objectionable there either (planning on VQ compression for the video). The main thing the CD gives is the ability to have all the levels. The cart version won't hold everything... unless I compress there as well.

That's another thing that I'm looking into. I didn't need to worry about it with the shareware Wolf3D as that all fits just fine. If I wanted to make it where someone with the full version can build their own full cart, that becomes an issue - when I tried to make my own full version, it's too big to fit unless I wanted to try to make it use bank selecting like SSF2. If the compression works well enough, I can go back and do the cart version compressed as well to make things fit better. That's more of an issue with Doom than Wolf3D - I don't think the shareware Doom would fit into the cart space without compression. The current Doom 32X uses a "simplified" set of levels with less textures, and they also got rid of all sprites except the ones facing the player. I want it all in my version, so compression it is!

matteus
07-09-2009, 06:25 PM
ahh so its more for sound effects! I'm not very knowledgable I didn't know if CDDA was effected by data disc access...

Chilly Willy
07-09-2009, 07:41 PM
I used music for all my experiments because it's EASY to hear the flaws in most music. How do you tell if a gunshot or explosion sounds right?? But EVERYONE knows exactly what Palmtree Panic sounds like. :D

If you're 10% off on the sample rate on a gunshot, you may not even notice. You can clearly hear 10% off on music. I'm sure some folks can distinctly hear 1% off.

About the only case I see for using compressed music like in my experiments is if you wanted to include "normal" music (not mod/midi/vgm) with some other app, like that text reader that came out a few days ago. It's not like the Genesis (or even the 32X) can handle MP3. Otherwise, you're much better off to go with FM synth music.

matteus
07-09-2009, 07:44 PM
ahh yeah I saw the very nice text reader!

If I go off your Sonic CD attempt I'd say Wolf3D is going to have some pretty good sound effects on the whole ;o)

matteus
07-12-2009, 09:32 PM
just heard your latest effort, near enough spot on :) very slight crackling but some of the best compressed sound sampling I've ever heard coming from mega drive hardware!

Chilly Willy
07-12-2009, 09:49 PM
just heard your latest effort, near enough spot on :) very slight crackling but some of the best compressed sound sampling I've ever heard coming from mega drive hardware!

The two main points with the compression I was trying: 1 - at least 3:1 compression; 2 - plays in real-time on the Z80.

Tears of Ash
07-12-2009, 10:42 PM
Will this game have X-band support?

Chilly Willy
07-12-2009, 11:18 PM
Will this game have X-band support?

Not a chance in hell. :D

Even if someone knew how the X-Band worked, Wolf3D is a single player game. When I get to working on Doom, it will have support for the Zero Tolerance link cable.

matteus
07-13-2009, 06:11 AM
Chilly as you know I'm not hot no hardware :) I'm guessing that the Music in Wolf3D will be only five FM channels with the sound effects being used on the 6th via the PCM channel? I'm guessing this rules out Tiido's sound driver?

Chilly Willy
07-13-2009, 01:05 PM
Chilly as you know I'm not hot no hardware :) I'm guessing that the Music in Wolf3D will be only five FM channels with the sound effects being used on the 6th via the PCM channel? I'm guessing this rules out Tiido's sound driver?

The sound effects are played through the PWM, so the FM/PSG is completely free. The problem isn't that there's no player code for music out there, the problem is that it's a huge pain in the ass to convert MIDI to one of those player's format. A MIDI player on the Genesis would be a big help. Then the music would be:

DRO to MIDI (or pick MIDI files)
=> MIDI Player

instead of

DRO to MIDI (or pick MIDI files)
MIDI to XM
XM to SMPS (which requires a lot of effort per song)
=> SMPS Player

philiptwood
07-13-2009, 03:18 PM
Well here's something I found on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hFf-_qi3aI

Chilly Willy
07-13-2009, 05:32 PM
Well here's something I found on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hFf-_qi3aI

Yes, and that video is the only thing there is from that person. Not very helpful.

kool kitty89
07-13-2009, 05:51 PM
That guy seems to have done other console midi interfaces, and some related stuff: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=littlescale&view=videos&query=midi

But I don't think this is necessarily useful for converting Wolf3D's midi files to something the Genesis can use. (it seems like he made an adaptor to allow a midi interface with the systems, controlled manually like with the keyboard, not something useful for software)


Has TmEE expressed any intrest in colaberating on this for the music?

TmEE
07-13-2009, 07:25 PM
something is going on over email, and converting MIDIs to my format won't be too pain, since my sound setup is highly MIDI inspired to say so ;)

but my setup is quite useless for MCD environment since you have no place for samples, unless there's a RAM cart

Chilly Willy
07-13-2009, 11:34 PM
something is going on over email, and converting MIDIs to my format won't be too pain, since my sound setup is highly MIDI inspired to say so ;)

but my setup is quite useless for MCD environment since you have no place for samples, unless there's a RAM cart

Well, playing the music via the FM would just be for cart anyway. I plan to use RedBook audio for the CD version. So if you CAN convert MIDI into your format, that would be fine with me. :)

Tears of Ash
07-14-2009, 12:05 AM
I'm probably repeating what you already know but...

That's just acting as a MIDI controller. The device is just paired up with the genesis to push a key to activate parts of its sound board. Not sure how he does it, unless he's using custom software or something. It doesn't look like it in the video...

but upon further inspection: http://groups.google.com/group/smsm-announcements

Also on his blog http://little-scale.blogspot.com/

There are pictures in which he's making a MIDI interface. So maybe the genny used in that video isn't actually the one he's running the sound through.

Anyways, that's kind of off-topic and stuff people knew already =\

matteus
07-14-2009, 06:40 AM
The sound effects are played through the PWM, so the FM/PSG is completely free.

Doh I'd forgot all about the 32x having PWM! Glad to hear it sounds like Tiido will be able to help you with those Midis!

Bramsworth
08-03-2009, 02:23 AM
Question for chilly regarding his planned Doom port. Would other games based off of the Doom engine somehow be portable without much effort once you've made that? Like for example, Sonic Robo Blast 2, which is a modification of the Doom engine.

I'm guessing probably not, since they did considerable amounts of recoding I think, but I'm curious to hear an answer from someone who would know :)

TmEE
08-03-2009, 05:12 AM
SRB2 seems to require a bit too much CPU power.... my old 400MHz Celeron had really hard time maintaining 10FPS !!!

retrospiel
08-03-2009, 09:43 AM
Having a YM2612/PSG version of the soundtrack would be awesome! :)

Speedle
08-03-2009, 11:28 AM
Question for chilly regarding his planned Doom port. Would other games based off of the Doom engine somehow be portable without much effort once you've made that? Like for example, Sonic Robo Blast 2, which is a modification of the Doom engine.

I'm guessing probably not, since they did considerable amounts of recoding I think, but I'm curious to hear an answer from someone who would know :)

not forgetting Doom 2 and Hexen :D oh and Blood! all use the same engine :D a hexen port would be great as not many people will remeber that!

Chilly Willy
08-03-2009, 01:35 PM
SRB2 is based on a specific source port of Doom - not the one I'm considering as the base for my port of Doom. The requirements are also rather high - too high for the 32X. It's too bad, though - that would have been the quick way for a cool 3D version of Sonic. :)

Once I have Doom going, it could certainly be used for other games. Of course, the further it is from the way Doom works, the more work you'd have to put into modifying the engine.

kool kitty89
08-03-2009, 08:11 PM
SRB2 is based on a specific source port of Doom - not the one I'm considering as the base for my port of Doom. The requirements are also rather high - too high for the 32X. It's too bad, though - that would have been the quick way for a cool 3D version of Sonic. :)


Yeah, kind of like the one using the Quake engine. ;) (of course, that's even more demanding)

Edit: I was thinking of Robo Blast, which is based on the Doom Legacy engine (probably what you were talking about), though there are other 3D homebrew sonic games in the works with much more modern engines.

Chilly Willy
08-03-2009, 10:27 PM
I was thinking that when I get Doom working for the 32X, it could be modified in a similar fashion to SRB2 for use in making a Sonic game like SRB2... just scaled back. We might be able to "borrow" some of the graphics and levels and sounds for it. ;)

jamesdude
08-04-2009, 01:14 AM
just made this for the hell of it........


http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/jamesdude_2006/Wolf3D32X.jpg

Chilly Willy
08-04-2009, 02:27 AM
Awesome, Dude! Can you make a CD 32X cover?

Chaotix
08-10-2009, 11:44 PM
Hey Chilly! I just had to say that you're work is quite amazing! Taking all this time to work on such a strange defunct system combo as the Genesis CD 32x is quite cool! Really, I can't wait for the CD 32x release of Wolf3D (WolfCD32x?), my system is waiting right here, all-revved up. XD
Although not many people know about it and its probably quite tough, I wish more people did more programming and homebrew for the Sega CD (or CD 32x). I've been stuck with Megamix for like 3 years. D=


I'd do some programming for the Genesis if my programming skills weren't limited to Q-BASIC and C64 BASIC. :D

...and I didn't even realize you worked on the PSP port of Wolf3D until you posted about it earlier. I've always been on the PSP homebrew scene...

Chilly Willy
08-11-2009, 12:16 AM
The entire SEGA lineup of consoles is seeing something of a boost in popularity and homebrew lately. People like these old systems more now than when they were selling. :D

matteus
08-11-2009, 02:56 PM
haha i'm not the only one who got a 32x purely for the growing homebrew then ;)

Chilly if you'd like to send me your paypal I'm more than happy to donate

T2KFreeker
08-19-2009, 10:40 PM
Wow, I am so glad to see that this project is still alive and kicking. Chilly, is there an estimate as to when the CD version will release? I still have my system plugged in and rerady to go when the day comes. I need a drool cup these days! Awesome that you are still on this though, you rock!:daze:

philiptwood
08-20-2009, 12:00 AM
Certainly a good first step for 32X homebrewing... That art work looks fantastic.

Chilly Willy
08-20-2009, 03:17 AM
Wow, I am so glad to see that this project is still alive and kicking. Chilly, is there an estimate as to when the CD version will release? I still have my system plugged in and rerady to go when the day comes. I need a drool cup these days! Awesome that you are still on this though, you rock!:daze:

I'll try to get back on it this weekend... been sidetracked by my Dreamcast the last week or so. :D

kool kitty89
08-20-2009, 03:56 AM
I know it's probably something you'd add later on as a bonus feature (after music and such), but are you still considdering adding floor/ceiling textures? I think the idea got thrown out when the SNES doom port was being discussed, but you mentioned that it shouldn't have too dificult to add to wolf32x iirc.

retrospiel
08-20-2009, 06:36 AM
I'll try to get back on it this weekend... been sidetracked by my Dreamcast the last week or so. :D

Hey, glad to hear that you got a Dreamcast ! :D

- maybe you'd like to help us working on a Genesis emulator for it ? Just join the DCEmulation.org forums (http://dcemulation.org/phpBB/) and I'll give you access to our development area.

The google code SVN is located here: http://code.google.com/p/genplus-dc/ (not much activity yet, sadly)

Chilly Willy
08-20-2009, 01:45 PM
I know it's probably something you'd add later on as a bonus feature (after music and such), but are you still considdering adding floor/ceiling textures? I think the idea got thrown out when the SNES doom port was being discussed, but you mentioned that it shouldn't have too dificult to add to wolf32x iirc.

Wolf32X has ceiling/floor texture rendering, but it's currently off as I don't like the textures (they just use the first two wall textures for the floor and ceiling). If someone has some GOOD floor and ceiling textures for W3D, I'd be glad to add that in.


Hey, glad to hear that you got a Dreamcast !

- maybe you'd like to help us working on a Genesis emulator for it ? Just join the DCEmulation.org forums and I'll give you access to our development area.

The google code SVN is located here: http://code.google.com/p/genplus-dc/ (not much activity yet, sadly)

Sure, I'll register this morning. Any thoughts on going with PicoDrive instead of GenPlus? Given how well it runs on the PSP, I think a DC conversion would be awesome. :D

retrospiel
08-20-2009, 01:55 PM
Wolf32X has ceiling/floor texture rendering, but it's currently off as I don't like the textures (they just use the first two wall textures for the floor and ceiling). If someone has some GOOD floor and ceiling textures for W3D, I'd be glad to add that in.

Nah, the game's supposed to have no ceiling/floor textures! Not even the Jaguar version has them.



Sure, I'll register this morning. Any thoughts on going with PicoDrive instead of GenPlus? Given how well it runs on the PSP, I think a DC conversion would be awesome. :D

That might be a good idea actually. Let's see what BlackAura thinks about that. :)

mrbigreddog
08-20-2009, 02:01 PM
Wolf32X has ceiling/floor texture rendering, but it's currently off as I don't like the textures (they just use the first two wall textures for the floor and ceiling). If someone has some GOOD floor and ceiling textures for W3D, I'd be glad to add that in.
I'll make some for you. What size do the images need to be? pixel x pixel size!

Chilly Willy
08-20-2009, 03:30 PM
I'll make some for you. What size do the images need to be? pixel x pixel size!

64x64 256 color. The "fun" part is making sure you use the Wolf3D palette.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4714/wolf3dpalette.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/wolf3dpalette.jpg/)


Nah, the game's supposed to have no ceiling/floor textures! Not even the Jaguar version has them.

The code for a textured floor and ceiling have been in place since the original port to C, it's just always been disabled. I enabled it on a test build to check how it worked on the 32X, and if it slowed things any... it works fine (other than needing some good floor/ceiling textures), and doesn't slow things noticeably. I'm not sure why other ports haven't ever used the floor/ceiling rendering - other than that's not how the original looks.

Chaotix
08-20-2009, 08:25 PM
Maybe you should put an switch in the options menu for texture enable/disable?

Chilly Willy
08-20-2009, 09:37 PM
Maybe you should put an switch in the options menu for texture enable/disable?

If I get some decent textures, that's the plan. It would be real easy to make it switchable. I'll default it to off so it comes up in the mode people expect, but folks can turn it on if they want rendered floors and ceilings.

T2KFreeker
08-21-2009, 01:16 AM
Coolness man. What else are you planning? Textures on the floors and ceilings would be awesome and very different for sure. Custom stuff would be really cool too!

Chilly Willy
08-21-2009, 01:42 AM
There will be an improvement in the synth sound effects. I'm still working on the music.

kool kitty89
08-21-2009, 01:52 AM
The only problem with SFX that I noticed is with the sound made when picking up ammo (doesn't sound like a sampled version of the PC sound, more like a buzzer)

Chilly Willy
08-21-2009, 01:23 PM
The only problem with SFX that I noticed is with the sound made when picking up ammo (doesn't sound like a sampled version of the PC sound, more like a buzzer)

The FM synthesis for the PC still isn't very accurate, no matter what the MAME guys may say. :D

I've got someone making recordings from the actual chip for me. By taking a high quality 44kHz/16-bit sample and compressing it, I get better sounds that take less space than the current sounds being used. It's partly why I was doing all those compression tests.

matteus
08-21-2009, 01:33 PM
It's coming along nicely then :) great to hear!

I hope the 32x CD Video Player is still in the works thats what I'm looking forward to most! lol

T2KFreeker
08-21-2009, 03:19 PM
The FM synthesis for the PC still isn't very accurate, no matter what the MAME guys may say. :D

I've got someone making recordings from the actual chip for me. By taking a high quality 44kHz/16-bit sample and compressing it, I get better sounds that take less space than the current sounds being used. It's partly why I was doing all those compression tests.

What are the possibilities of the CD file being in a burnable cdi right out the gate? Actually CW, do you mind if I drop you a PM so we can talk?

Chilly Willy
08-22-2009, 04:18 AM
What are the possibilities of the CD file being in a burnable cdi right out the gate? Actually CW, do you mind if I drop you a PM so we can talk?

No problem - I don't mind answering questions. When I get the CD stuff working, I'll have an image for the shareware, and include tools to make a disc for the full version from your own full version files.


I hope the 32x CD Video Player is still in the works thats what I'm looking forward to most! lol

Yes, I've been putting some time into that as well. My current thought is that while the SH2 can't handle DCT (not fast enough to make it worthwhile at least), it CAN handle FWT (Fast Walsh Transform - also called the Hadamard Transform). So my idea is one SH2 is doing the equivalent of MotionJPEG, but with FWT instead of DCT, while the other SH2 does deblocking to make it look better.

mrbigreddog
08-22-2009, 01:17 PM
Yes, I've been putting some time into that as well. My current thought is that while the SH2 can't handle DCT (not fast enough to make it worthwhile at least), it CAN handle FWT (Fast Walsh Transform - also called the Hadamard Transform). So my idea is one SH2 is doing the equivalent of MotionJPEG, but with FWT instead of DCT, while the other SH2 does deblocking to make it look better.

Is the 32x Video Player based off my suggestion for the DIVX VCD Player thread?!

Chaotix
08-22-2009, 02:56 PM
This is a really crazy idea, but I'm just going to bring it up anyways...
Would it be possible to implement the MegaModem for multiplayer gaming in Wolf32x?
That would be sweet! It would kinda be like the Saturn's modem then.

Hehe. This game will start to take advantage of all of Sega's add-ons. XDD

EDIT: Wait...does Wolf even have 2 player over dial-up? I never played the PC version... XDD

Chilly Willy
08-22-2009, 04:55 PM
Is the 32x Video Player based off my suggestion for the DIVX VCD Player thread?!

No, I've been looking into a 32X video player for YEARS. I actually BOUGHT the MPEG1 specifications (this was back before such things were online for free) just to see what the decoding would entail and if the 32X was capable of actually playing VideoCDs.

I just hadn't put any real work into it until I got Wolf32X out and started on my CD code. At that point, I could see a 32X video player as being possible. Your thread just simply came at a time when my own thoughts on the matter were beginning to look realistic.

CMA Death Adder
08-22-2009, 08:26 PM
Wait...does Wolf even have 2 player over dial-up? I never played the PC version... XDD

It does not.

You should play the PC original, it's one of the best DOS games ever made. :D

Chilly Willy
08-22-2009, 09:01 PM
You should play the PC original, it's one of the best DOS games ever made. :D

That might be going too far. Doom, Duke 3D, RotT, Quake, Tomb Raider 1 to 3... all of those were all DOS games... and would probably score higher on most folks' list of top games than Wolf3D. ;)

CMA Death Adder
08-22-2009, 09:21 PM
That might be going too far. Doom, Duke 3D, RotT, Quake, Tomb Raider 1 to 3... all of those were all DOS games... and would probably score higher on most folks' list of top games than Wolf3D. ;)

Don't forget Blood, if only for the awesomeness that is the flare gun. :)

T2KFreeker
08-22-2009, 09:46 PM
Don't forget Blood, if only for the awesomeness that is the flare gun. :)

Ooh, 32-X CD Blood! Now I would be all over that for sure!:daze:

Chilly Willy
08-22-2009, 10:13 PM
Don't forget Blood, if only for the awesomeness that is the flare gun. :)

That too. :D In other words, there's TONS of DOS games out there that people just don't think about anymore. Lots of great games... and plenty of garbage, too. Sturgeon's Law holds paramount, after all. ;)

matteus
08-24-2009, 12:04 PM
It CAN handle FWT (Fast Walsh Transform - also called the Hadamard Transform). So my idea is one SH2 is doing the equivalent of MotionJPEG, but with FWT instead of DCT, while the other SH2 does deblocking to make it look better.

*goes off to read all about it*

Chilly Willy
08-24-2009, 12:50 PM
*goes off to read all about it*

Here's a little snippet of code I was using to test the Hadamard transform. Code is sometimes hard to find in it's most basic form - this is as basic as it gets, showing how you do a 1D transform over the data array horizontally, then vertically. If you add up the operations, it does exactly 384 ADDs and SUBs.


#include <stdio.h>

int data[8][8] = {
{ 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 },
{ 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 },
{ 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 },
{ 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 },
{ 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 },
{ 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 },
{ 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 },
{ 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 }
};

// 1D Hadamard

#define SA8D_1D {\
const int a0 = SRC(0) + SRC(4);\
const int a4 = SRC(0) - SRC(4);\
const int a1 = SRC(1) + SRC(5);\
const int a5 = SRC(1) - SRC(5);\
const int a2 = SRC(2) + SRC(6);\
const int a6 = SRC(2) - SRC(6);\
const int a3 = SRC(3) + SRC(7);\
const int a7 = SRC(3) - SRC(7);\
const int b0 = a0 + a2;\
const int b2 = a0 - a2;\
const int b1 = a1 + a3;\
const int b3 = a1 - a3;\
const int b4 = a4 + a6;\
const int b6 = a4 - a6;\
const int b5 = a5 + a7;\
const int b7 = a5 - a7;\
DST(0, b0 + b1);\
DST(1, b0 - b1);\
DST(2, b2 + b3);\
DST(3, b2 - b3);\
DST(4, b4 + b5);\
DST(5, b4 - b5);\
DST(6, b6 + b7);\
DST(7, b6 - b7);\
}

// 8x8 fast Hadamard test

main ()
{
int i, j;

// compute forward Hadamard

#define SRC(x) data[i][x]
#define DST(x,rhs) data[i][x] = (rhs)
for (i=0; i<8; i++)
SA8D_1D
#undef SRC
#undef DST

#define SRC(x) data[x][i]
#define DST(x,rhs) data[x][i] = (rhs)
for (i=0; i<8; i++)
SA8D_1D
#undef SRC
#undef DST

for (i=0; i<8; i++)
printf ("%d %d %d %d %d %d %d %d\n",
data[i][0], data[i][1], data[i][2], data[i][3],
data[i][4], data[i][5], data[i][6], data[i][7]);
printf ("\n");

// compute inverse Hadamard

#define SRC(x) data[i][x]
#define DST(x,rhs) data[i][x] = (rhs)
for (i=0; i<8; i++)
SA8D_1D
#undef SRC
#undef DST

#define SRC(x) data[x][i]
#define DST(x,rhs) data[x][i] = (rhs) >> 6
for (i=0; i<8; i++)
SA8D_1D
#undef SRC
#undef DST

for (i=0; i<8; i++)
printf ("%d %d %d %d %d %d %d %d\n",
data[i][0], data[i][1], data[i][2], data[i][3],
data[i][4], data[i][5], data[i][6], data[i][7]);

}

mrbigreddog
08-24-2009, 08:46 PM
No, I've been looking into a 32X video player for YEARS. I actually BOUGHT the MPEG1 specifications (this was back before such things were online for free) just to see what the decoding would entail and if the 32X was capable of actually playing VideoCDs.

I just hadn't put any real work into it until I got Wolf32X out and started on my CD code. At that point, I could see a 32X video player as being possible. Your thread just simply came at a time when my own thoughts on the matter were beginning to look realistic.

I still feel special! hahaha!!

Chilly Willy
08-24-2009, 09:22 PM
I still feel special! hahaha!!

It's your avatar. :D

I'm sure many people have been thinking about a movie player on the 32X - you just posted the first thread on it here (that I'm aware of). How people think about it will vary by the person - as you've seen, my thoughts have been more program oriented, with special emphasis on the core of the video codec.

mrbigreddog
08-24-2009, 09:33 PM
It's your avatar. :D

I'm sure many people have been thinking about a movie player on the 32X - you just posted the first thread on it here (that I'm aware of). How people think about it will vary by the person - as you've seen, my thoughts have been more program oriented, with special emphasis on the core of the video codec.

My "dream" is to redo the video for Sewer Sharks - And star in it myself! That would kickass!!

Chilly Willy
08-24-2009, 10:23 PM
My "dream" is to redo the video for Sewer Sharks - And star in it myself! That would kickass!!

Well, it WAS one of the better FMV games to come out. I suppose you already have the helmet? :lol:

T2KFreeker
08-25-2009, 12:09 AM
Hey now, I absolutely Love Sewer Shark. The game is awesome!

kool kitty89
08-25-2009, 02:47 AM
Awsome in a campy way, just like Night Trap (and maybe double switch depending on your prefrence).

Nowhere near the awsome campy humor of Retrun to Zork though (granted a higher quality game in general), which could probably be included in the FMV genre (though technically a graphic adventure with digitized actors and lots of cutscenes, probably closer to FMV than Myst, at least in some ways) Weird to think that it was among the few such games to not initially be released on CD, but rather 12 floppy disks!

Anyway, back on topic.


On the earlier Fm SFX comment, Chilly Willy, why is using a real OPL2 (or compatible) chip necessary? Wouldn't Adlib/SB emulation in DOSBox give high enough sound quality?

CMA Death Adder
08-25-2009, 06:39 AM
I've got someone making recordings from the actual chip for me.

Yoicks! Who on earth would want to sit around making hardware-perfect recordings of Ad Lib sound effects?! Guy'd have to be fjörkin' crazy!


Wouldn't Adlib/SB emulation in DOSBox give high enough sound quality?

No. Listening to DOSBox try to emulate the Ad Lib card makes me disgusted.

TmEE
08-25-2009, 09:05 AM
I prefer DOSbox over real OPLx chip, mainly because real chip sounds so unclean...

Mr. Ksoft
08-25-2009, 09:27 AM
Unclean? I dunno, I have a Sound Blaster 16 in one of my old computers and the OPL3 part of it is one of the clearest, cleanest sounds it can make... it definitely blows DOSBox's quality out the window. (Plus, DOSBox doesn't emulate it completely accurately, making some sounds off. Just like a Genesis emulator compared to hardware)

mrbigreddog
08-25-2009, 09:42 AM
Well, it WAS one of the better FMV games to come out. I suppose you already have the helmet? :lol:

Not yet! And I would have to cut my hair... Maybe I could play ALL the Characters!! "Another Crash and Burn... First time huh rookie?"

Chilly Willy
08-25-2009, 01:21 PM
Yoicks! Who on earth would want to sit around making hardware-perfect recordings of Ad Lib sound effects?! Guy'd have to be fjörkin' crazy!

Maybe, but he's already got me most of the sound effects. :)



Wouldn't Adlib/SB emulation in DOSBox give high enough sound quality?

No. Listening to DOSBox try to emulate the Ad Lib card makes me disgusted.

The PSP version of Wolf32X (and some other versions for the PC) use the MAME AdLib FM emulation for the FM sounds and music... and it's the number one complaint from users - the FM sound is wrong/bad. SpritesMind has been researching the YM2612 in the Genesis to make emulated Genesis audio perfect - something similar needs to be done for the old PC FM chips. No matter what the MAME changelog says, PC FM audio is NOT very good. People who think it sounds better are simply used to listening to wrong FM; anyone who grew up listening to the real FM will tell you it's MAME/Dosbox that sounds wrong, not reality. :D

TmEE
08-25-2009, 01:24 PM
Unclean? I dunno, I have a Sound Blaster 16 in one of my old computers and the OPL3 part of it is one of the clearest, cleanest sounds it can make... it definitely blows DOSBox's quality out the window. (Plus, DOSBox doesn't emulate it completely accurately, making some sounds off. Just like a Genesis emulator compared to hardware)

the DOSbox emulation is inaccurate, but its not having quantization noise, and it does not have that digital filter present in real chip.

kool kitty89
08-25-2009, 06:54 PM
TmEE doesn't the SB16 (and pro) have significantly cleaner output than older SB (and Adlib) cards?

I grew up playing Dos games with SB music (SB16 I assume) in the early-mid '90s (in both Dos and Win 95, not sure what I had in Win 98 but whatever it was it supported SB16), in fact I'd never even heard X-Wing with anything other than FM until about a year ago.
I can't do a side by side comparison as we don't have any computer with a real (or compatible) classic SB card (I'm not even sure we have any ISA motherboards kicking arounf anymore), but I don't remember X-Wing sounding any different back then than it does in DOSBox. (or when I was using VDMSound for that matter, in which Wolf3D sounds identical to DOSbox)

Granted I was only 5 or 6 when I actually played it in DOS, but it was running natively in Win95 and Win98 quite a bit later, so I assume that was representative of a real FM chip as well. (inless the sound card had actual OPL3 emulation or Win9x did so in software)

We didn't have Wolf3D (or Doom for that matter, possibly my dad did at work, but I don't remeber it at home -We were into Myst, Zork, and X-Wing around that time), so I can't vouch for what it sounded like in real hardware, but in DOSBox/VDMSound it sounds like what I hear in youtube clips listes as real DOS machines. (and definitely different than some of the ports or in Wolf32x, the PS3 version souds very close though)

TmEE
08-26-2009, 05:32 AM
The SB16 has a bit better analog area, but its still nothing good, at least not compared to my Yamaha which has OPL3 as well as all other things in it also to get full sound from DOS games.

http://nim.pansarvagn.net/hte3_ymf719_715_262_comparison.mp3
First is my Yamaha, 2nd is SB16, 3rd is DOSbox... you can clearly hear why I prefer DOSbox. It just sound so much nicer.

matteus
08-26-2009, 09:51 AM
Tiido you're right the DosBox sounds cleaner!

Chilly Willy
08-26-2009, 12:42 PM
Doesn't matter how "clearer" the sound is if it's wrong. It's like preferring a CD of kazoos playing Swan Lake to a cassette of the London Symphony Orchestra. ;)

matteus
08-26-2009, 01:15 PM
In the world of emulation yes that’s true :) but if your trying to ace the original in regards to an adaption i.e. Wolf 3D surely you'd go with the best and clearest available sound rather than trying to replicate the orginal? What did other versions of Wolf do sound effect wise?

Jaguar version looks pretty cool.... never played it mind!

Chilly Willy
08-26-2009, 01:41 PM
In the world of emulation yes that’s true :) but if your trying to ace the original in regards to an adaption i.e. Wolf 3D surely you'd go with the best and clearest available sound rather than trying to replicate the orginal? What did other versions of Wolf do sound effect wise?

Jaguar version looks pretty cool.... never played it mind!

The emulated FM is the most complained about part of any Wolf3D conversion. I don't know for certain what the Jaguar does, but it's probably digitized samples. It doesn't really have the power to emulate the FM.

kool kitty89
08-26-2009, 11:01 PM
Jaguar sounds a bit like the SNES music, not sure if it's actually the same, but seeing as the Jag port was similar to the SNES port in some other ways -some of the voice samples and gameplay elements, I wouldn't be too surprised if they shared similar music as well.

What kind of stuff is off in DOSbox's OPL emulation anyway? (just some of the instruments or other things like sample rate, I think OPL emulation is 22,050 Hz standard, I'd assume the chip itsself would be similar to the Ym2612's 53 kHz)

A good many other things must use emulation as well, VDMSound for sure (that's one of the key features afterall), but some games like Sonic & Knuckles Collection allow "FM" to be slelected in place of "MIDI," and it works with just onboard sound in my old (Athlon motherboard) computer and new laptop. (and it most definitely sounded like OPL-ish stuff, distinctly different from the Genesis S&K sounds)
So would that be via software emulation? (in the program itsself) I wouldn't think modern sound cards would still support the OPL (otherwise why would DOSBox bother with emulation)...
The weird thing is that that's an older game (meant for Win95), so software emulation wouldn't make much sense. (though having FM support would, for those still using older cards)


And were Adlib cards any better than Creative's ones in respect to sound quality?

Chilly Willy
08-26-2009, 11:30 PM
Sounds effects are the worst. They've had enough time to "tune" the emulation so that most music sounds okay, but sound effects are too varied to handle individually. Take the PSP version of Wolf3D as an example (it uses the emulated 3812 for sfx/music) - some sound effects are okay, but other don't, and some are constantly reported as "missing" (they're there, but the amplitude is WAY too low). For Wolf32X, I pre-generate the FM sound effects with the 3812 emulation, and play them back digitally like the regular digital effects. I scale some of the sound effects so you can hear them, but when I do so, you can definitely tell they're not quite correct. That's why someone is digitizing the real FM chip output for me - it'll make those FM sfx sound right.

kool kitty89
08-27-2009, 08:42 PM
OK I just haven't noticed any of that in Wolf3D in Dosbox (I've only played through the first 3 levels though and I can't do a side-by side comparison with real hardware -other than videos, but everything sounds fine to me)

Wing Commander also seems fine in DOSBox, this one being particularly significant given that it was meant for Adlib, so everything is FM, all music and SFX. (also the same reason it sounds awful with a standard midi sound front for MT-32 compatibility -actual MT-32 -or real MT-32 emulation- sounding good of course)

mrbigreddog
08-28-2009, 10:22 AM
I never would of know that the sound hardware emulation was so complex and so important! Either I just don't read into as much, or you guys are just going way overboard in getting things perfect.

T2KFreeker
08-29-2009, 01:56 AM
Jaguar sounds a bit like the SNES music, not sure if it's actually the same, but seeing as the Jag port was similar to the SNES port in some other ways -some of the voice samples and gameplay elements, I wouldn't be too surprised if they shared similar music as well.

What kind of stuff is off in DOSbox's OPL emulation anyway? (just some of the instruments or other things like sample rate, I think OPL emulation is 22,050 Hz standard, I'd assume the chip itsself would be similar to the Ym2612's 53 kHz)

A good many other things must use emulation as well, VDMSound for sure (that's one of the key features afterall), but some games like Sonic & Knuckles Collection allow "FM" to be slelected in place of "MIDI," and it works with just onboard sound in my old (Athlon motherboard) computer and new laptop. (and it most definitely sounded like OPL-ish stuff, distinctly different from the Genesis S&K sounds)
So would that be via software emulation? (in the program itsself) I wouldn't think modern sound cards would still support the OPL (otherwise why would DOSBox bother with emulation)...
The weird thing is that that's an older game (meant for Win95), so software emulation wouldn't make much sense. (though having FM support would, for those still using older cards)


And were Adlib cards any better than Creative's ones in respect to sound quality?

Actually, the music was rewritten for the Jaguar so it could be taken advantage of. Carmac and id Software handdled the port of Wolfenstein 3d for the Jaguar personally. I wish I could find the old interview I read where Carmac was talking about how much fun he had porting the game for the Jaguar.

kool kitty89
08-29-2009, 06:43 AM
It was my understanding that Wolf 3D was a rather quick and dirty port for the Jaguar, largely done to familiarize them with the hardware in preparation for the Doom port.

Chaotix
08-29-2009, 03:10 PM
First is my Yamaha, 2nd is SB16, 3rd is DOSbox... you can clearly hear why I prefer DOSbox. It just sound so much nicer.

Is the Yamaha that MPU-401 card for the SB16 Waveport or is it a separate soundcard? I kinda like the sound of it... XD
I never used DOSbox, I've stuck with my old Win95 PC. hehe.

Also, the DOSbox emulation that you recorded there sounds somewhat like C64 SID music.

TmEE
08-29-2009, 03:15 PM
That Yamaha is a separate ISA soundcard... so no way to use it in a modern PC or hook it up to any unless you buy some ultr@ expensive PCI to ISA bridge card...

retrospiel
08-29-2009, 04:52 PM
It was my understanding that Wolf 3D was a rather quick and dirty port for the Jaguar, largely done to familiarize them with the hardware in preparation for the Doom port.

From the little I've seen the port looks rather impressive. If I weren't so incredibly terrified by the Jaguar's controller I'd buy the thing just because of the Wolf3D port.

kool kitty89
08-30-2009, 06:18 AM
Well it's pretty decent, but could have been better (particularly with the odd SNES similarities -some voice samples in particular), it's pretty nice overall, smoothe, colorful graphics, transparent status bar/display, nice music/sound, and higher res sprites like the 3DO version. (but like the 3DO and SNES ports, the sprites are single sided)

I don't know what's so frightning about the Jag controller, more or less a 3-button genny pad with ergonomic shape, select button and key pad. (unfortunately the key pad wasn't used for weapons in Wolf3D, just saves iirc, unlike Doom which properly utilized the keys) The best application for those IMO is facilitating more accurate controls with PC ports, or allowing games that would have otherwise have been impossible to properly support controlls for. (ones with lots of multitasking, Like X-Wing it would have been perfect for, I think Iron soldier used this, and maybe some strategy games)

Granted the later Jaguar pro controller was a lot better, much more well rounded, though it didn't add any more buttons, just re-mapped 5 of the keys, still much more well rounded though.


It's certainly not a contributing factor for me not having a Jag, that would be mainly because of the price, had I gotten into collected a few years ago when they were dirt cheap, I might have picked one up, but now... too expensive for my taste. (collecting's a casual hobby for me, and getting stuff cheap is a big part of it)

mrbigreddog
08-30-2009, 12:37 PM
(but like the 3DO and SNES ports, the sprites are single sided)

What version of Doom had multi-sided sprites? They were all flat! Looked the same from every angle!

T2KFreeker
08-30-2009, 07:57 PM
From the little I've seen the port looks rather impressive. If I weren't so incredibly terrified by the Jaguar's controller I'd buy the thing just because of the Wolf3D port.

The Jaguar control pad isn't that bad. The point is that people just likie making fun of the Jaguar in general as it is considered to be a total failure. However, the system is actually rather good and the controller is just fine.

kool kitty89
08-30-2009, 09:34 PM
What version of Doom had multi-sided sprites? They were all flat! Looked the same from every angle!

Firstly, I was talking about Wolf3D not Doom... As far as Doom goes, the PC version had 8-sided sprites for live enemies (single sided for items, orbjects and corpses), the Jaguar port had this as well, and I think PSX, Saturn, GBA, and maybe 3DO ports as well. 32x and SNES were definitely single sided though.

I'm not sure if wolf 3D had 8-sided sprites, but at least multi-sided of some sort in the PC original (you can sneak up on enemies from behind). The PSX, Jaguar, and 3DO versions lack this feature, not sure about GBA though. I think most modern ports have the multisided sprites as well, including Chilly Willy's 32x port. (which is derived from his previous PSP port I beleive)

philiptwood
08-31-2009, 02:37 AM
Doom for the Atari Jaguar used a custom made C compiler for the Jag that ID made because the one that Atari supplied was bad. It's probably the first 2.5D game game that successfully took advantage of the Jags full capabilities using a C compiler. Every game after that, that was written in C, had to use Atari C compiler, which most likely used the M68K chip which hogs the Jag bus. To this day no one knows where ID C compiler is; I wish some one could find it because it beats the heck out Assembler.

kool kitty89
08-31-2009, 02:49 AM
I thought Carmak wrote some things in RISC Assembler but a lot in C with the 68k. (Doom still using a lot of 68k, at least the released version did, I think Carmak stated that he played around with it again after the official version was released)

Edit:
Still I don't think they developed their own C compiler for Atari/Flare's custom RISC architecture. (perhaps id worked on one but at least didn't complete it and use it for Doom, maybe planned for some later id Jaguar projects like Quake that never materialized)

Ah, this came up before between you and Chilly Willy:


I can believe they did their own C compiler, but I doubt it did anything for RISC. If you look at the Jaguar DOOM code, the only C is in the 68000 files. The RISC stuff is all assembly. So id wrote at least an assembler for the RISC stuff. Perhaps they did a C compiler for the RISC as well, but they didn't need it given the code they were working on.

Given there were lots of C compilers for the 68000 floating around (for the Amiga, Atari ST, and Apple Mac), writing their own C compiler for the 68000 is also not much of a feat. More than likely, they simply adapted an existing one to their needs.


It was rumored that they "ID" made a C compiler for the Jag RISC but it got lost somewhere. It was supposedly the only compiler that took advantage of the RISC chips in the Jag. Atari had their own but it was apparently considered unusable thus you had to know Assembler to program the Jag. I'm fairly new in assembler so I wouldn't know too much about it, but as buggy as the Jag was the 64bit Blitter was enough to get me interested into the Jag homebrew hobby.


A decent "J-RISC" compiler would have been a valuable tool indeed. (pretty much the biggest complaint from Jag developers, along with the bugs -and lack of workarrounds -or much of any assistance- from Atari)

philiptwood
08-31-2009, 08:46 PM
You got a good memory Koolkitty... I forgot all about that post.

T2KFreeker
09-09-2009, 02:17 AM
Any new news on the release of Wolfie 32-X CD? I'm still a drooling!;)

Chilly Willy
09-09-2009, 02:24 AM
I just got my development system worked out - my old one went tits-up on me a couple of weeks ago. Fortunately, I didn't lose any code or anything.

Using my new system, I got Doom for the Dreamcast out. That was pretty fun. Not nearly as much work as the 32X will be. ;)

T2KFreeker
09-26-2009, 03:41 AM
Well, just checking in again on the 32-X CD version. Seems this thread has died out and it's sad. We should still be talking about this game.

kool kitty89
09-26-2009, 04:31 AM
Well, there's not really that much to discuss that hasn't been addressed or responded to already (and a lot branched into off topic stuf), and I'm sure things would have piced up again with the next update. ;)

Anyway, Chilly Willy, any progress with the music yet? Did you decide to go with Tiido's sound engine?
Any word on the porposed floor/ceiling textures? (mrbigreddog had offered to make some)

TmEE
09-26-2009, 06:39 AM
Chilly does his own setup since my stuff cannot be used with things that end up opensourced.

Chilly Willy
09-26-2009, 03:00 PM
Well, there's not really that much to discuss that hasn't been addressed or responded to already (and a lot branched into off topic stuf), and I'm sure things would have piced up again with the next update. ;)

Anyway, Chilly Willy, any progress with the music yet? Did you decide to go with Tiido's sound engine?
Any word on the porposed floor/ceiling textures? (mrbigreddog had offered to make some)

I'm working on an FM MIDI player for the music. It'll make things easier for me in the long run.

I haven't gotten any textures from anyone yet. No rush on that... it's not like I'm paying people to do it. :D

philiptwood
09-26-2009, 06:56 PM
There's a program out there called the "MVSTracker" for the Neo Geo system... It's a typical music tracker which comes with source code. Here's a website I breifly found... Good luck with your project.

http://gendev.spritesmind.net/page-mvst.html

kool kitty89
09-26-2009, 08:27 PM
On the textures again, that pallete you posted was a JPEG, so not very useful for selecting colors from. (dithering/compression artifacts) Could you post a bitmap image of it instead?

Chilly Willy
09-26-2009, 08:46 PM
On the textures again, that pallete you posted was a JPEG, so not very useful for selecting colors from. (dithering/compression artifacts) Could you post a bitmap image of it instead?

I posted what was available. I didn't make that, but took it from a web page on making custom graphics for Wolf3D. Me posting a BMP would just be me running the JPG through GIMP to save it as BMP - you could do that yourself. :)

I suggest looking at various pages that talk about doing mods for Wolf3D.

http://www.wolfenstein3d.co.uk/graphics.htm (has a better gif of the palette if you follow the VGA link)

http://www.areyep.com/RIPandMCS-TextureLibrary-Walltextures.html (nice bunch of textures... maybe I can swipe one for the floor and ceiling :D )

EDIT: You can get WolfEdit on that same site as directly above: http://www.areyep.com/RIPandMCS-Utilities.html
It says it'll export images from the Wolf3D vswap file... which would give you the palette you need.

kool kitty89
09-26-2009, 10:08 PM
Heh, yeah, saving the jpg as a bmp wouldn't really help. ;)

I've been thinking though, for the ceilings at leas, maybe they should stay untextured, or use very subdued, subtle textures. Some of the current textures found here: http://www.areyep.com/RIPandMCS-TextureLibrary.html (which you pointed out) look like they might actually be pretty good to use on the floors, at least in some locations.

Particularly these from the floor & ceiling section:
http://www.areyep.com/RIPandMCS-TextureLibrary-Floorceilingtextures.html
http://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/007-greystone2.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/027-concreterough.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/027-concretecracked.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/026-slab1.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/026-slab2.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/025-slatestone.gif

Chilly Willy
09-26-2009, 11:27 PM
Heh, yeah, saving the jpg as a bmp wouldn't really help. ;)

I've been thinking though, for the ceilings at leas, maybe they should stay untextured, or use very subdued, subtle textures. Some of the current textures found here: http://www.areyep.com/RIPandMCS-TextureLibrary.html (which you pointed out) look like they might actually be pretty good to use on the floors, at least in some locations.

Particularly these from the floor & ceiling section:
http://www.areyep.com/RIPandMCS-TextureLibrary-Floorceilingtextures.html
http://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/007-greystone2.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/027-concreterough.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/027-concretecracked.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/026-slab1.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/026-slab2.gifhttp://www.areyep.com/Texturelibrary/floorsceilings/025-slatestone.gif

Dang! I didn't even notice the floor/ceiling section... thanks. One thing: when using a solid color, the floor is always one color, but the ceiling is set to different colors based on a table. So if you really wanted to be accurate, we should have the ceiling (and maybe the floor, too) change based on the level like the solid color.

Here's the relavent code for solid colors:

static unsigned int Ceiling[]=
{
#ifndef SPEAR
0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0 x1d1d,0x1d1d,0xbfbf,
0x4e4e,0x4e4e,0x4e4e,0x1d1d,0x8d8d,0x4e4e,0x1d1d,0 x2d2d,0x1d1d,0x8d8d,
0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x2d2d,0xdddd,0 x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x9898,

0x1d1d,0x9d9d,0x2d2d,0xdddd,0xdddd,0x9d9d,0x2d2d,0 x4d4d,0x1d1d,0xdddd,
0x7d7d,0x1d1d,0x2d2d,0x2d2d,0xdddd,0xd7d7,0x1d1d,0 x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x2d2d,
0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0x1d1d,0xdddd,0xdddd,0x7d7d,0 xdddd,0xdddd,0xdddd
#else
0x6f6f,0x4f4f,0x1d1d,0xdede,0xdfdf,0x2e2e,0x7f7f,0 x9e9e,0xaeae,0x7f7f,
0x1d1d,0xdede,0xdfdf,0xdede,0xdfdf,0xdede,0xe1e1,0 xdcdc,0x2e2e,0x1d1d,0xdcdc
#endif
};

/*
=====================
=
= ClearScreen
=
=====================
*/

static void ClearScreen()
{
unsigned int ceiling = Ceiling[gamestate.episode*10+mapon] & 0xFF;
unsigned int floor = 0x19;

VL_Bar(xoffset, yoffset, viewwidth, viewheight / 2, ceiling);
VL_Bar(xoffset, yoffset + viewheight / 2, viewwidth, viewheight / 2, floor);
}


One thing you can see right off - SOD has a lot more levels. :D

The value is an offset into the palette, so you can use that one palette image (http://www.wolfenstein3d.co.uk/palette.gif) to see what the color is. Knowing the walls might also help figure out a decent looking floor and ceiling.

T2KFreeker
09-29-2009, 04:44 AM
Yup, I am excited now! Awesome stuff guys. We are getting closer!:cool:

T2KFreeker
10-12-2009, 02:41 AM
Been a couple weeks, so I am checking in again. Just asking what's going on Chilly? I need my fix here man!:chewie:

Chilly Willy
10-12-2009, 03:12 AM
Working on some stuff associated with the Neo Myth at the moment. Wolf32X is pretty much on hold until I finish the MIDI player for the cart version, and the CD base code for the CD version. So it'll be a while yet.

kool kitty89
10-12-2009, 04:13 AM
Are you planning on including the floor/ceiling textures and redone sound effects samples in the next update as well?

Chilly Willy
10-12-2009, 07:43 PM
Are you planning on including the floor/ceiling textures and redone sound effects samples in the next update as well?

Yes. I'll probably make a switch for floors/ceilings in case people like one mode over the other.

Tears of Ash
10-13-2009, 02:17 AM
Well, just checking in again on the 32-X CD version. Seems this thread has died out and it's sad. We should still be talking about this game.

Hey, me too! And I agree, as well.

It's starting to become "that" time of the year though, so I can understand if the OP doesn't have as much free time as he used to.

Chilly Willy
10-13-2009, 02:43 PM
Not to mention I'm active in other homebrew areas - I've got people yammering for me to work on Aliens vs Predators and Doom on the DC, DaedalusX64, Duke Nukem, and flite on the PSP, Wolf3D and Doom on the 32X, and the NeoMyth menu on the Neo Super 32X/MD/SMS flash cart. :D

Wesker
10-13-2009, 04:45 PM
I've got people yammering for me to work on Aliens vs Predators and Doom on the DC

This one?

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/5791/avp1y.jpg

Chilly Willy
10-13-2009, 05:39 PM
This one: http://icculus.org/avp/

The page says Gold Edition and the Aliens Demo. I won't know about the original AvP or other demos until I get more into the code. I'll probably work on a PSP version concurrently since the DC and PSP are rather similar in abilities. One of the things AvP needs is OpenAL, which I've already ported to the PSP. That's what I'm working on - OpenAL for the DC.

Wesker
10-13-2009, 07:04 PM
This one: http://icculus.org/avp/

The page says Gold Edition and the Aliens Demo. I won't know about the original AvP or other demos until I get more into the code. I'll probably work on a PSP version concurrently since the DC and PSP are rather similar in abilities. One of the things AvP needs is OpenAL, which I've already ported to the PSP. That's what I'm working on - OpenAL for the DC.

Oh boy!

It's certainly the game I'm talking about. And it would be a neat, retail-quality Dreamcast addition. The game was intended to be released on Dreamcast back in the day, in fact, but it ended up cancelled.

You think it's feasible to do it? There's some people who had a hard time porting the game to the original Xbox, so a Dreamcast effort, considering its memory limits, should be difficult as hell.

Chilly Willy
10-13-2009, 07:19 PM
It looks feasible so far.

Da_Shocker
10-14-2009, 08:58 PM
yo Chilly have you ever tried to do anything with the Saturn. I was very curious as to what it can do and since it also has access to the 4MB ram cart, memory would'nt be a huge issue like the 32X.

Chilly Willy
10-14-2009, 09:18 PM
yo Chilly have you ever tried to do anything with the Saturn. I was very curious as to what it can do and since it also has access to the 4MB ram cart, memory would'nt be a huge issue like the 32X.

I've compiled the lapetus library, and I've been thinking about making a quick Doom port that uses the 4MB cart. It would be pretty easy - main program in the high RAM, sound samples/music in the low RAM, use the RAM cart for the game heap... seems pretty straightforward. Something like that would work for a number of games from that same era.

Doom is already out for the Saturn, but in this case, it would be my "standard" port like I did for the Amiga/AROS/PSP/DC - uses the PC wad files (no missing levels or textures or monsters), and capable of using patch wads and DEH files.

Da_Shocker
10-14-2009, 09:23 PM
Eh screw Doom I thought that Lobotomy did a good job on Quake with what they were givin to work with but how much better would it be with the 4MB ram cart?

Chilly Willy
10-14-2009, 09:40 PM
Eh screw Doom I thought that Lobotomy did a good job on Quake with what they were givin to work with but how much better would it be with the 4MB ram cart?

Lobotomy made a game that looked, played, and sounded like Quake, but wasn't really Quake. With the 4M cart, you can just barely do a "real" Quake conversion. For example, QuakeDS is Quake hacked to work in the 4MB the DS has available. The Saturn with the 4MB cart would be very much like QuakeDS.

I guess in one way it would be better - you'd be able to use (some) conversions available for Quake. That would also be something I might work on for the Saturn (conversion of QuakeDS to the Saturn).

Joe Redifer
10-14-2009, 10:00 PM
Except the Saturn with the 4MB RAM cart is basically a Saturn with 7MB RAM.

Chilly Willy
10-14-2009, 10:37 PM
Except the Saturn with the 4MB RAM cart is basically a Saturn with 7MB RAM.

Saturn RAM:
1 MB High Work RAM - this is where you put your program code. It's the fastest memory on the Saturn.
1 MB Low Work RAM - you use this for data as it's slow memory. Most folks use it for level data and sounds/music.
.5 MB Sound RAM - this is where playing sounds go. It's fairly limited in size, which is why people use the Low Work RAM for sounds/music.
1.5 MB Video RAM - used for sprites, backgrounds, framebuffers.

So in effect, a stock Saturn without a RAM cart has 2 MB of usable RAM. You don't count specialty RAM like sound or video because they can't be used for programs and level data and the like. 2MB is not enough for stock Quake. Even QuakeDS wouldn't run in that. However, you might be able to squeeze QuakeDS into the stock memory + the 1 MB RAM cart. Maybe. The 4 MB cart would be better because then you have more memory than the program requires. More memory is better than less memory. ;)

By the way, cart RAM is pretty slow - it's only 16 bits wide, and the 4MB carts use 15 clocks / access cycle from what I can make of the info on it.

Joe Redifer
10-14-2009, 11:36 PM
More memory is better than less memory.

I cannot understand how this could possibly be. More memory is better than less memory? No way! :)

Is there a way to hook up the Genesis/Sega CD/32X combo to a Saturn in order to give enough RAM to play Quake 2 maybe?

Chilly Willy
10-14-2009, 11:47 PM
I cannot understand how this could possibly be. More memory is better than less memory? No way! :)

Way! :D



Is there a way to hook up the Genesis/Sega CD/32X combo to a Saturn in order to give enough RAM to play Quake 2 maybe?

No, that would be silly as a MD/CD/32X combo has barely 1 MB of RAM total split into a number of blocks. You'd want to make a RAM cart like the 1 and 4 MB carts, but with more memory. There's address space for 32MB of RAM (IIRC) for the cart, so a 32MB RAM cart for the Saturn would be the best way to run stuff that needs more RAM.

Da_Shocker
10-15-2009, 11:58 AM
Who would make a 32MV ram cart for the Saturn? And would'nt the load times be awful?

Chilly Willy
10-15-2009, 03:59 PM
Who would make a 32MV ram cart for the Saturn? And would'nt the load times be awful?

It would have to be homemade. There's little chance of a company making a Saturn device these days. And load times would depend on the game. The CD in the Saturn is a 2X drive, so it can read a max of 300 KB per second. So loading 32 MB (which you wouldn't ever do) would take about a minute and a half. More typical level loads for games meant to run in 32MB of RAM would be like 5 to 10 MB, which would be like 20 to 30 seconds load time. It's not cart speed, but old systems like that were known for their long load times.

Joe Redifer
10-15-2009, 04:34 PM
What if someone made a 32MB RAM cart and then something to slap in to the MPEG slot, like more video RAM. Possible? Maybe even hook some extra RAM to a cable going to controller port 2?

Chilly Willy
10-15-2009, 05:30 PM
What if someone made a 32MB RAM cart and then something to slap in to the MPEG slot, like more video RAM. Possible? Maybe even hook some extra RAM to a cable going to controller port 2?

Controller ports are for SLOW controllers. You don't even want to think about hooking something like memory to a controller port.

The MPEG slot can't increase the video RAM. It's just another port like the cart slot on top. You could use it to add more regular RAM like you can with the cart slot, it's just hidden and harder to add/remove that way. :)

Basically, another ram cart like the existing ones would be cheapest and more likely than any of your other suggestions.

Joe Redifer
10-15-2009, 06:27 PM
But the normal RAM carts rely on the cartridge port which has been damaged for most users since it was so cheaply made. So the internal slot might be the best bet. Or maybe an attached hard drive for virtual memory? ;)

Chilly Willy
10-15-2009, 06:44 PM
No go on VM - the CPU used in the Saturn and 32X doesn't have an MMU. However, a plug-in card in the mpeg slot that had RAM and an SD card port would be pretty nifty.

mrbigreddog
11-13-2009, 11:27 AM
How we coming on this WOLF32XCD Chilly... Still dying for it... Is there anything anyone can do to help? Give you some PayPal Money for some blank CD's or something!

Chilly Willy
11-13-2009, 01:30 PM
I'm working on the Neo Myth stuff at the moment. The trouble isn't money, it's time. My 32X stuff is on hold until I get the Neo Myth stuff done.

mrbigreddog
11-13-2009, 05:32 PM
I'm working on the Neo Myth stuff at the moment. The trouble isn't money, it's time. My 32X stuff is on hold until I get the Neo Myth stuff done.

Neo Myth? What's that!?

Chilly Willy
11-13-2009, 06:04 PM
Neo Myth? What's that!?

Dr. Neo's MD flash cart. It is programmed via USB, and uses a plug-in GBA flash cart for storage (comes with one 512 Mbit Neo2 Flash cart for the GBA). The current loader menu is pretty rudimentary, so I'm making a nicer one. The Neo Myth has great potential for homebrew as well as the cart itself has 8MB (64 Mbits) of PSRAM in it that it runs games from, but with a proper loader, you could make that ram usable inside the game. The flash could also be used as a storage device with the proper code. In addition, there's a GBA flash cart with an SD interface available (the Neo2-SD cart) that could be used with the Neo Myth (that's my biggest interest with this).

I don't know if there's a review of it here at SEGA-16 yet or not.

Here's a link to the Neo Myth Forum at NeoFlash:
http://www.neoflash.com/forum/index.php/board,41.0.html

mrbigreddog
11-13-2009, 06:23 PM
Dr. Neo's MD flash cart. It is programmed via USB, and uses a plug-in GBA flash cart for storage (comes with one 512 Mbit Neo2 Flash cart for the GBA). The current loader menu is pretty rudimentary, so I'm making a nicer one. The Neo Myth has great potential for homebrew as well as the cart itself has 8MB (64 Mbits) of PSRAM in it that it runs games from, but with a proper loader, you could make that ram usable inside the game. The flash could also be used as a storage device with the proper code. In addition, there's a GBA flash cart with an SD interface available (the Neo2-SD cart) that could be used with the Neo Myth (that's my biggest interest with this).

I don't know if there's a review of it here at SEGA-16 yet or not.

Here's a link to the Neo Myth Forum at NeoFlash:
http://www.neoflash.com/forum/index.php/board,41.0.html

Pure Awesomeness!

Chilly Willy
11-13-2009, 07:13 PM
Oh, one other feature. If you remove the 32X, you can use it to play SMS games. It has the built in ability to simulate the PowerBase, plus it has the FM chip the Japanese SMS had built in as well. So SMS games that use the FM chip have FM sound on the Neo Myth.

doomguy
11-13-2009, 07:48 PM
sounds like something i should certainly get forget assasins creed 2 and tekken 6 for a bit.

Chilly Willy
11-13-2009, 09:02 PM
It's a bit expensive, but if you love your old Genesis, it's a very good thing to have.

T2KFreeker
11-25-2009, 08:34 PM
:confused:On hold? Man, that's a total bummer mate. I'm still looking forward to some Wolfenstein 3d for the 32-X CD. How far from getting this thing out are you?

Chaotix
11-25-2009, 09:20 PM
It's a bit expensive, but if you love your old Genesis, it's a very good thing to have.

Wait, is this cart out yet?
...cuz I think I'm in love. XDDDDD

Chilly Willy
11-25-2009, 09:25 PM
The Neo Myth is out, even if the software is still a little "preliminary".

Wolf32X is delayed while I work on the Neo Myth software. Once I've got it working to my satisfaction, I'll be back onto the CD base code that will be the basis for Wolf32X CD (and eventually Doom).

Chaotix
11-25-2009, 10:28 PM
Okay. Sounds awesome!!

Just one more question... (I don't want to make an account on NEO Flash just for a few questions XD )

Does the cart feature or will it feature SG-1000 support? Since it supports the Master System which, in turn, is compatible with the SG-1000 it would only make sense. Plus, it would be a cool little "bonus."