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16bitter
01-05-2006, 11:31 AM
Outside that first season for the N64 (Mario 64>>>>everything, for at least a month there), I always thought the PS was the best system. I got into the Saturn in late 98 and I really love the thing -- I've probably played it more than my PS since then, but at the same time I felt I had far more to catch up on and find at that/this late date. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the fact that it's more of a 2D machine makes it more bearable today than the PS -- which is a bit of a reversal of positions from what things were like during their era.

Overall, my vote goes to the PS -- in its heyday, it was the best thing going for gaming so far as consistency and variety in the mid to late 90s. It'll be interesting to see if ANYBODY is pro-N64 over the other two.

Demonic Weasel
01-05-2006, 02:54 PM
The Saturn. It's a great system and when a game was made well for that system it truly was excellent. When a game wasn't it was avaerage, off of the top of my head I can't think of a game that was actually bad.

I never gave much love to the PS, so I can't say much about it.

And the N64 was good... but It didn't have anything on the Saturn.

Joe Redifer
01-05-2006, 03:17 PM
For me this is extremely simple. Saturn. Granted the PS had waaaay more games, but I modded my Saturn to play imports, and once I did that man oh man did the good games flow. The thing was just so damn fun. I loved the controller (Japanese one whch later came to the US). I hated (and still do) the Playstation controller. The Saturn just seemed sleeker. The 3D capabilities of both systems sucked ass, so that wasn't a deciding factor for me. I didn't like how the PS's 3D textures were all skewed (they couldn't draw a straight line to save their lives). As for the N64, I loved Super Mario 64, Waverace 64, and a few other games. The N64's foggy graphics actually made me go diahrrea, so I didn't play it that often. The Saturn looked incredible in S-video.

Yeah. Saturn.

David J.
01-05-2006, 05:38 PM
The Saturn is my least favorite Sega console, it's a great system too, but don't get me wrong I love it more than the PSX, and the N64!

My only problems with the saturn are, most of the good games in the domestic library are pricy and hard to find. And the cost and availbity of games.

And for the record, I've gotten some good deals on rare or expensive saturn games, complete and in mint condition. Only 20 odd games to go!

16bitter
01-05-2006, 06:42 PM
For me this is extremely simple. Saturn. Granted the PS had waaaay more games, but I modded my Saturn to play imports, and once I did that man oh man did the good games flow.

That's what was so disappointing about Sega of America's strategy -- the Saturn release schedule was too mainstream, never showing the system's true potential. And, of course, like all Sega systems it was killed prematurely in our market by that same corporate structure.

Meh.


The 3D capabilities of both systems sucked ass,

Tell me about it. The Dreamcast was such a godsend for console 3D. The PS was dead to me the minute the DC hit.

16bitter
01-05-2006, 06:57 PM
BTW, how did the N64 get two votes? I'm really curious about that reasoning.

Chris Marsh
01-05-2006, 07:57 PM
BTW, how did the N64 get two votes? I'm really curious about that reasoning.
One of those votes is because there are some great games for the N64 that are not of the lame RPG or the stealth genre. Goldeneye is the greatest FPS game of all time. That game alone is worth the price of admission for the system. Super Mario, a way better SF Rush than the PS1 version, and no long PS1 load times are the makings of a great system. The Saturn is underpowered when it comes to making a 3D game (The system has good 2D titles). The PS1 is still a good system, but the 3D titles have not aged well and the ones that have are RPG's or Metal Gear Solid (Not a bad game).

j_factor
01-06-2006, 01:17 AM
Saturn. I had one in its heydey, kept track of its games to an OCD extent, bought dozens of games for it at the time, including many imports, and yet, I still occasionally discover an interesting game that I missed. There is just so much good stuff for it. Also, owning a Saturn in 1996 was quite possibly the most exciting system-year in the history of videogames, in terms of the potential and volume of everything that was coming out. That was the only time I have ever sold stuff to buy new games.

Close second would be Playstation. Lots of great games, lots of great times. A good friend of mine had one at launch, and I'd go over and play it a lot.. he was always getting new games too, both good and not-so-good ones. Which was great, it was really fun playing the whole spectrum of quality; sometimes I think I shield myself from bad games too much nowadays, as playing bad games can be pretty enriching. Anyway, Playstation became my own system of choice in October '98 when I got rid of my entire Saturn collection to get one... I remember looking at a bunch of Dreamcast media like Virtua Fighter 3tb, Sega Rally 2, PenPen, etc. and thinking, "they're killing Saturn for that? they're leaving me in the cold and they expect me to buy this new thing?" I promptly killed Sega from my personal collection and bought a Playstation, Sega's ever-increasing hubris having gotten unbearable. I eventually did get a Dreamcast, but not until the system was dying.

N64? I had one briefly, but only because it was given to me, and I got rid of it pretty quickly (in fact, I got it in September of '98 and traded it in towards the PSX the next month). N64 had such a paltry game selection, I couldn't stand it... I'd rate it down by Jaguar and 3DO in terms of overall library.

16bitter
01-06-2006, 08:43 AM
BTW, how did the N64 get two votes? I'm really curious about that reasoning.
One of those votes is because there are some great games for the N64 that are not of the lame RPG or the stealth genre.

Irony of that statement is that Nintendo losing Square quite possibly was what destroyed their hold over Japan. Imagine if Sony hadn't come in -- Sega might have found themselves owning the Japanese market.


Goldeneye is the greatest FPS game of all time. That game alone is worth the price of admission for the system. Super Mario, a way better SF Rush than the PS1 version, and no long PS1 load times are the makings of a great system. The Saturn is underpowered when it comes to making a 3D game (The system has good 2D titles). The PS1 is still a good system, but the 3D titles have not aged well and the ones that have are RPG's or Metal Gear Solid (Not a bad game).



I preferred carts for the lack of loading, but I also think that they crippled this system from the get-go.

Is it unfairly bashed? Maybe. There certainly weren't enough games, and the ratio within that of great to crap was not high enough in the former's favor, yet it still had some of the best experiences of its generation.

Goldeneye was the first great console-only FPS. Deathmatch on that provided many hours of fun -- a stellar variety of setups -- and the missions stood out for their intricacy. I had a much better time with this than I did the first Halo.

Blast Corps is still a pretty unique experience, and it has aged quite decently. It's literally one of the pure boy fantasies come to life -- destructive joy from an overhead position that recalls the type of godhood that all kids, consciously or subconsciously, create when playing out such scenarios with a Lego/Lincoln Log town or the like.

Doom 64 made for a wonderful update on the old game's engine, and I think stands as one of the great versions of Doom put to any screen.

Star Fox 64 remains one of the greatest rail shooters ever released. And it still looks decent enough that I enjoy playing it today -- of course, all of the same goes for Panzer Dragoon Zwei. 'Cept for the rumble feature and the amazing heft of the Slipmeister's personality.

Diddy Kong Racing, so far as I've played, is the last great cart racer -- I've not come in contact with an impressive alternative, including the many lame Mario Kart followups (the one and only exception to that being MK on GBA, which stuck to the original's design philosophy and required skill). Introducing planes and boats brought a freshness to the gameplay, and within that same gameplay there's a true sense of this requiring racing acumen not called upon in the horrendous Mario Kart 64. To top it off it was one of the best looking games of the era, and goes in the category of games that look reasonably good today from that period.

Waverace 64 was tremendous as far as graphics and gameplay -- along with Mario 64, it created the feeling out of the box that the N64 truly was what it was hyped up to be. After all, with first generation software that was this great imagine how amazing the system would be in a couple years! Unfortunately, the answer became rarely as good, never better and often far below what was done here. Remains one of the N64's very best, but that's almost an indictment. Granted, it is also one of the best games of that generation, as I feel all the games I've listed in this post are.

F-Zero X. An amazing experience of speed and mayhem. It's been topped by GX, but nothing could match this game's purity so far as what it was tapping until Amusement Vision gave us the sequel. F-Zero is legendary as a series -- the first was one of the great 16-bit racers and one of my earliest SNES games, and the two console followups by generation have done nothing but blow me away. Yet to have a bad game, though if we take it to the handheld realm I admit that I was underwhelmed by the first GBA game. I can't wait to see what limits this series will be pushed to and surpass on the Rev.

And then we have Zelda and Mario. Not much needs to be said there. Two of the greatest of any era were and are 64 and Ocarina.

But what of the lack of games overall and all the disappointments? What about genres totally ignored -- was there ever a great, even decent, fighter or RPG on the system? What about the obvious constraint an otherwise very powerful piece of hardware was placed under by its connective media format?

I can name as many games that sickened as I can that amazed, which is anything but okay considering the number released. As will always be the case, even some of the widely praised games did nothing for me -- the previously mentioned MK, SF Rush, Turok (I hate this game, so I guess it did do something for or to me), etc. -- and with the lack of variety in any sense on the N64 this only helped to underline the system's failings, and Nintendo's idiocy in clinging to the cartridge.

Was N64 a great system? I think if we look at purely its pros, then yes -- what would things be like without some of the games it introduced? The answer becomes a but more ambivalent when I consider what it did wrong, as well as how much better it could have been with a different format to store its games in.

With CD or some other high density media, Nintendo would have slaughtered with this tech. Make no mistakes. A better run company than Sega by far, but its hubris was almost as destructive as Sega's in-fighting, unfocused stupidity.

It also died rather quickly. After Zelda, what was left? That's basically two years of the machine at any type of zenith.

Obviously
01-06-2006, 09:56 AM
Although I love the Saturn and it was a better piece of hardware than the Playstation in my eyes, I'm not going to try to fool myself. At the end of the day Playstation had the software support and even if it was quantity over quality they still had more gems packed onto that thing at the end of its life span than any other system unless you combine the Genesis and the SNES games into the same category.

The N64, while being the graphics whore of that generation and boasting some of the best games of all time that shouldn't be missed for any reason, it just didn't have enough of them to hold the interest of the crowd for very long. Lack of CD's also meant limitted speech and worse music than the Playstation. Not that I have anything against MIDI style videogame music. The Saturn could've been a contender but most people were too busy feeling scorned about investing in Sega CDs and 32Xs and Nomads to give the Saturn the chance it deserved. Honestly, Sega dug its own grave and would have to sit out until the next generation where it would create the fantastic Dreamcast only to suffer a new mess of marketting blunders and drop out of the console market once more.

As Sony started scooping up 3rd party developers and everyone's favorite franchises left and right the other consoles were left in the dust. Playstation was the clear winner and the fanbase that skipped the Dreamcast to wait for the PS2 is a testament to that. Playstation also definatively proved that games were more important than graphics. It was also the first system (pre-NES systems not included) to be successful without a mascot character (Crash not included... nice try Sony but no dice).

My biggest gripe with Sony's PS1 is early on they were rejecting 2D games since they wanted to differentiate themselves from the 16 bit era and be an entirely 3D system and let's face it, the Sony isn't the most 3D capable machine in the world but it can pump out some gorgeous two-dimensional graphics and luckily classics such as Castlevania: SotN managed to weasel their way onto the system so it's not so much of a gripe as it is a disagreement with Sony's view on what constitutes a good video game. As has been mentioned a lot of Sony's 3D games have not aged well and this is understandable since full 3D was still in the pioneering stages and at the time few people knew how to make a good game with it (Though Sega and Nintendo seemed to get a pretty good grasp on it early on).

In the end Sony got its payback by crippling Nintendo's stranglehold on the market since Nintendo kicked them to the curb after rejecting the original Playstation SNES add on. It's just unfortunate that Sega and its Saturn was caught in the fray. They showed the Big N not to mess with them and it may be a different and even better world today if Sony and Nintendo were still on the same team. I wasn't too pleased with the PS2 and Sony's become what most people like to call an evil empire now-a-days, no longer the underdog that came out of nowhere and rose to glory.

GeckoYamori
01-06-2006, 12:05 PM
I think the PC market started peaking over the console counterparts during that era :P

16bitter
01-06-2006, 12:10 PM
Close second would be Playstation. Lots of great games, lots of great times. A good friend of mine had one at launch, and I'd go over and play it a lot.. he was always getting new games too, both good and not-so-good ones. Which was great, it was really fun playing the whole spectrum of quality; sometimes I think I shield myself from bad games too much nowadays, as playing bad games can be pretty enriching. Anyway, Playstation became my own system of choice in October '98 when I got rid of my entire Saturn collection to get one... I remember looking at a bunch of Dreamcast media like Virtua Fighter 3tb, Sega Rally 2, PenPen, etc. and thinking, "they're killing Saturn for that? they're leaving me in the cold and they expect me to buy this new thing?" I promptly killed Sega from my personal collection and bought a Playstation, Sega's ever-increasing hubris having gotten unbearable. I eventually did get a Dreamcast, but not until the system was dying.

We really are opposites on the Saturn/DC issue. I thought Dreamcast was the first Sega product since Genesis to really get things right from the corporate structure as well as being a piece of prime hardware at its release -- the Saturn I thought was sunk by the former and heavily flawed in the case of the latter (though with all these machines the former and later conflate at concept and base tech stage).

I still believe that Sega's wounds were self-inflicted across the board with the Saturn, whereas the Dreamcast was both victim of unwarranted Sony zeitgeist and of past mistakes made with the Saturn and other hardware. Its death had little to do with the machine's failings, which I think were few to none, much unlike the Saturn.


N64? I had one briefly, but only because it was given to me, and I got rid of it pretty quickly (in fact, I got it in September of '98 and traded it in towards the PSX the next month). N64 had such a paltry game selection, I couldn't stand it... I'd rate it down by Jaguar and 3DO in terms of overall library.

I don't know how you could do that. The N64's overall library was hurting next to Saturn and Playstation's, but it blows away the Jag and 3DO.

If we're talking by genre, the N64 had some deep holes. But on number of quality pieces there's no comparison whatsoever.

Saying the N64's software is on the same level as those two is far too hyperbolic.

16bitter
01-06-2006, 12:25 PM
My biggest gripe with Sony's PS1 is early on they were rejecting 2D games since they wanted to differentiate themselves from the 16 bit era and be an entirely 3D system and let's face it, the Sony isn't the most 3D capable machine in the world

Back then it was, actually. Which makes Sony's stance defensible early on. After all, why release too many 2D games that will play right into the Saturn's strengths?

But today it makes no sense when they reject a game like Metal Slug 3, I agree.


but it can pump out some gorgeous two-dimensional graphics and luckily classics such as Castlevania: SotN managed to weasel their way onto the system so it's not so much of a gripe as it is a disagreement with Sony's view on what constitutes a good video game.

As far as it technically goes, the PS was a far better 3D machine for its time than it was a 2D machine on the basis of relative comparison. Right now? Yeah, its limited 2D software is more bearable than its "striking" 3D software. Though some of those Capcom arcade translations aren't (SF Alpha was one prime exception, but it was all downhill from there).

Obviously
01-06-2006, 01:20 PM
We really are opposites on the Saturn/DC issue. I thought Dreamcast was the first Sega product since Genesis to really get things right from the corporate structure as well as being a piece of prime hardware at its release -- the Saturn I thought was sunk by the former and heavily flawed in the case of the latter (though with all these machines the former and later conflate at concept and base tech stage).

I agree with you on the Dreamcast. The Saturn was so-so in my opinion. I don't have that many great memories of it when compared to other systems at the time but the Dreamcast blew me away. It was the highest point in Sega history next to the Genesis and nothing was wrong with it. I'm just a delusional person who was with the Dreamcast from the beginning until it's death though so I might be a little jaded. Marketting blunders ended up killing it in the end though although it was nice to see Sega pumping out original games again, at least for a short time.

16bitter
01-06-2006, 02:01 PM
We really are opposites on the Saturn/DC issue. I thought Dreamcast was the first Sega product since Genesis to really get things right from the corporate structure as well as being a piece of prime hardware at its release -- the Saturn I thought was sunk by the former and heavily flawed in the case of the latter (though with all these machines the former and later conflate at concept and base tech stage).

I agree with you on the Dreamcast. The Saturn was so-so in my opinion. I don't have that many great memories of it when compared to other systems at the time but the Dreamcast blew me away. It was the highest point in Sega history next to the Genesis and nothing was wrong with it. I'm just a delusional person who was with the Dreamcast from the beginning until it's death though so I might be a little jaded.

I don't think so. But then, we may just be deluded together.

It had an awesome launch and never lost its momentum from that...until the scythe came down so prematurely in January 01. Tragic.

Great hardware, and software that was wonderful across the board. The PS2 took a long time to get up to par with the DC's lineup -- in fact, the DC and PS2 felt like role reversal as far as hardware. The Dreamcast had tons of great games out of the gate and was easy to develop for, whereas the Playstation 2 was a mess inside.


Marketting blunders ended up killing it in the end though although it was nice to see Sega pumping out original games again, at least for a short time.

I didn't think it was marketing that killed it (though it was in no way as cutting edge as Sega in their prime), but rather Sega's past mistakes with the Saturn being inescapable financially. In the end, the DC was the victim of the Saturn era as well -- its downfall was of no fault of the system itself or even the Sega of that period.

The DC is, as a concept, what the Saturn should have been in relative terms. It even had sports and a next-gen Sonic covered out of the gate.

Sonic Adventure
Powerstone
VF3TB
Blue Stinger (never got around to playing it, but it looked damned nice and decently interesting)
Soul Calibur (makes the arcade version its bitch)
NBA2K (I remember I was so damned impressed with the little details, like Stockton having short short shorts, certain players having distinctive FT stances/rituals and the arenas finally being distinctive)
NFL2K
Toy Commander
Sega Rally 2
Marvel Vs Capcom
Street Fighter Alpha 3 (it truthfully was a somewhat lacking port of a lacking iteration of SF, but it was a decent name to have in the lineup; Saturn version is the best, ironically, but it of course was left in Japa like so much else for that system)
House of the Dead 2

Great launch window. And it must be remembered that the games all looked spectacular for the most part -- such a leap over anything else on the market -- which is what new systems need. An abundance of quality software from the opening bell that also were wonderful tech demos.

I love this system so much. It felt like, yeah, this is the Sega I remember -- the Genesis era company that seemed to constantly amaze. The MIA company of the 32-bit era.

David J.
01-06-2006, 09:44 PM
I think the PC market started peaking over the console counterparts during that era :P

I agree. I quit playing console games from 1996-2000, only because PC gaming reached it's peak and downfall during that time, and hasn't been the same since then. PC games started to look more impressive and better overall than console games for once!

j_factor
01-07-2006, 03:10 AM
We really are opposites on the Saturn/DC issue. I thought Dreamcast was the first Sega product since Genesis to really get things right from the corporate structure as well as being a piece of prime hardware at its release -- the Saturn I thought was sunk by the former and heavily flawed in the case of the latter (though with all these machines the former and later conflate at concept and base tech stage).

I still believe that Sega's wounds were self-inflicted across the board with the Saturn, whereas the Dreamcast was both victim of unwarranted Sony zeitgeist and of past mistakes made with the Saturn and other hardware. Its death had little to do with the machine's failings, which I think were few to none, much unlike the Saturn.

DC had the same problem 360 has now -- they kill off a console early to rush a new one to market, and expect people to just buy it. Saturn was the #1 console in Japan for quite a good length of time, but the more they talked about Katana/DC the more they hurt their own market. When Dreamcast was released, Saturn had been out a mere 4 years in Japan and still had quite the presence there, despite SoJ's determination to kill it. PS2 came out over 5 years after its predecessor, giving the Playstation time to, you know, breathe. Sega hurried this new console to market, and for what?

It's true that there was only a little over 3 years between Master System and Mega Drive in the UK, but Sega Europe handled that properly by promising they were not killing off the Master System, and following through on that promise with SMS releases up to 1994. As a result, Sega Europe enjoyed two successful consoles consecutively. Sega Japan took this weird opposite approach with Dreamcast, making it clear that they were killing their current system immediately.

I clearly remember seeing all the Dreamcast media come back from TGS '98 and just shaking my head.. We were supposed to get Virtua Fighter 3 for Saturn, but they canned it in favor of the "superior" DC port of 3tb, which was every bit as rushed as the original VF on Saturn, and was the sole game of interest at the Japanese launch. Did they expect their own customers would just come back for more after being insulted? VF1 had been rushed on Saturn, but the game couldn't have been done on Mega Drive, which didn't have much of a userbase in Japan anyway. VF3 could certainly have been done on Saturn, which had the userbase; the game was supposed to be coming for Saturn, only for Sega to can it in favor of the DC version. Sega was basically saying "we're not bringing this out because we want to make you buy a new system for it". And they thought they could get away with it because the VF series had been a sensation in Japan.

But even despite all that cause for negative sentiment, a poll (yes there was a poll) showed that the majority of attendees at TGS '98 came mainly to get a look at Sega's new system. But they totally squandered that interest, as everyone came back with bad taste in their mouths after seeing such disappointing arcade ports and a terrible release calendar. Sega blew it with such a lackluster showing.

Not to mention with third parties. Third parties making games for Saturn, blindsided by Sega's sudden and early dropping of support, coupled with the lack of Dreamcast SDK's in the preliminary period... well let's just say that they weren't exactly enthused.

As for the US specifically.. Sega of America didn't come out with a single console game from May 1998 until 9-9-99. Not one release. When they didn't even bother doing games anymore, that really soured me on their upcoming system -- 15 months is a long time for ZERO games. And I should just lap it up? I know Saturn wasn't exactly popular in this country, but neither was Master System, and SoA didn't take a huge dump on SMS like that. No games doesn't sit well with me.

Like I said, Dreamcast eventually won me over by having good games. I definitely agree with the sentiments that it was a well-designed piece of hardware and that it shouldn't have been dropped when it was. But given the system's inception it almost seemed like dumping the system early was their plan from the start.


I don't know how you could do that. The N64's overall library was hurting next to Saturn and Playstation's, but it blows away the Jag and 3DO.

I wouldn't rank N64 below those systems, but definitely closer to them than Playstation. 3DO and Jaguar did have a few good games, you know.

Dartagnan1083
01-15-2006, 03:26 PM
Goldeneye is overrated.
Deathmatching was fun, but somehow the quality of the game itself didn't seem all that special to me.

Good for its time, but its reputation is overtly bloated to me.

j_factor
01-15-2006, 05:17 PM
Goldeneye is overrated.
Deathmatching was fun, but somehow the quality of the game itself didn't seem all that special to me.

Good for its time, but its reputation is overtly bloated to me.

I agree. Especially having played Alien vs. Predator on Jaguar two years prior, and Powerslave on Saturn the previous year. Disruptor on PSX was pretty good as well.

ary incorparated
01-15-2006, 06:11 PM
Saturn was great but as a sega fan i have to admit i spend more tim playing n64,But i like the saturn more now.saturn had some pretty damn good graphics for 32 bit ,never saw psx fix that,anybody ever seen the shenmue Beta former called virtua fighter RPG or panzer dragoon sag,radiant silvergun very solid also street fighter and capcom games where better on saturn very sharp and no blurry graphics like psx and no small characters.
1 saturn
2 n64
3 psx

I hated the european covers becuase they where very fragile and i hated DC for its covers one fall and its broke.

Obviously
01-15-2006, 07:03 PM
Goldeneye is overrated.
Deathmatching was fun, but somehow the quality of the game itself didn't seem all that special to me.

Good for its time, but its reputation is overtly bloated to me.

I agree. Especially having played Alien vs. Predator on Jaguar two years prior, and Powerslave on Saturn the previous year. Disruptor on PSX was pretty good as well.

Alien vs Predator on the Jaguar is so underrated that it's a crime.

16bitter
01-21-2006, 07:10 PM
We really are opposites on the Saturn/DC issue. I thought Dreamcast was the first Sega product since Genesis to really get things right from the corporate structure as well as being a piece of prime hardware at its release -- the Saturn I thought was sunk by the former and heavily flawed in the case of the latter (though with all these machines the former and later conflate at concept and base tech stage).

I still believe that Sega's wounds were self-inflicted across the board with the Saturn, whereas the Dreamcast was both victim of unwarranted Sony zeitgeist and of past mistakes made with the Saturn and other hardware. Its death had little to do with the machine's failings, which I think were few to none, much unlike the Saturn.

DC had the same problem 360 has now -- they kill off a console early to rush a new one to market, and expect people to just buy it. Saturn was the #1 console in Japan for quite a good length of time, but the more they talked about Katana/DC the more they hurt their own market. When Dreamcast was released, Saturn had been out a mere 4 years in Japan and still had quite the presence there, despite SoJ's determination to kill it. PS2 came out over 5 years after its predecessor, giving the Playstation time to, you know, breathe. Sega hurried this new console to market, and for what?

I don't think they had the cash reserves to play wait and see. Rushing it was pragmatic, just as it is with the 360 -- Microsoft isn't desperate, unlike Sega, but they are aggressive.

I'm not impressed by the 360, but it could still bite Sony in the ass if the PS3 can't look obviously better.

The Dreamcast on the other hand was a striking step up from anything on the market back then. With enough money, Sega could have carved up nice market share with that system -- take their cash resveres and brand recognition from the Genesis era and put them behind the DC...who knows.

I don't think the DC was "rushed" in the sense that it was unbderpowered or the market wasn't ready at all. It was both a prime piece of hardware and a market that was triring of 32/64-bit.

It's true that there was only a little over 3 years between Master System and Mega Drive in the UK, but Sega Europe handled that properly by promising they were not killing off the Master System, and following through on that promise with SMS releases up to 1994. As a result, Sega Europe enjoyed two successful consoles consecutively. Sega Japan took this weird opposite approach with Dreamcast, making it clear that they were killing their current system immediately.


I clearly remember seeing all the Dreamcast media come back from TGS '98 and just shaking my head.. We were supposed to get Virtua Fighter 3 for Saturn, but they canned it in favor of the "superior" DC port of 3tb, which was every bit as rushed as the original VF on Saturn, and was the sole game of interest at the Japanese launch. Did they expect their own customers would just come back for more after being insulted? VF1 had been rushed on Saturn, but the game couldn't have been done on Mega Drive, which didn't have much of a userbase in Japan anyway. VF3 could certainly have been done on Saturn,

X-Men Children of the Atom could have been done on Genesis, but what exactly would that have meant?

The Saturn was not in the least up to doing VF3 justice, and admittedly the rushed port on DC didn't accomplish that either. But if the DC didn't do it -- it could have,m make no mistake -- what chance did the Saturn have? I don't want to imagine how bad that wuld have looked.

Part of the point of VF3 was its graphical fidelity -- how would this have been acgieved on the Saturn? An add-on? I think we all saw where that got Sega previously, and that was in regards to a system that was by all accounts (save Japan's, on merely an insular market level) a great success.

which had the userbase; the game was supposed to be coming for Saturn, only for Sega to can it in favor of the DC version. Sega was basically saying "we're not bringing this out because we want to make you buy a new system for it". And they thought they could get away with it because the VF series had been a sensation in Japan.


Not to mention with third parties. Third parties making games for Saturn, blindsided by Sega's sudden and early dropping of support, coupled with the lack of Dreamcast SDK's in the preliminary period... well let's just say that they weren't exactly enthused.

Were there many devs enthused by the Saturns kits and base architecture? No. Dreamcast was a respense and massive improvment in hardware design over the Saturn.

And, unlike the Saturn, it was obviously a beast unmatched by anything else at home during its first year.


As for the US specifically.. Sega of America didn't come out with a single console game from May 1998 until 9-9-99.

Why not just import?


But even despite all that cause for negative sentiment, a poll (yes there was a poll) showed that the majority of attendees at TGS '98 came mainly to get a look at Sega's new system. But they totally squandered that interest, as everyone came back with bad taste in their mouths after seeing such disappointing arcade ports and a terrible release calendar. Sega blew it with such a lackluster showing.

The Dc was a hot release in Japan due to VF3TB. It sold on the strenfgth of one game, much like the Saturn's launch.

As far as bad impressions, there's no way the Dreamcast did as badly in Japan out of the gate as the Saturn did here. From a graphical standpoint alone it was obvious it was a far better system out of the gate than its predecessor.


Like I said, Dreamcast eventually won me over by having good games. I definitely agree with the sentiments that it was a well-designed piece of hardware and that it shouldn't have been dropped when it was. But given the system's inception it almost seemed like dumping the system early was their plan from the start.

The question is, did they have a choice? I don't think so. They bled themselves dry long before the Dreamcast, and only a miracle would have kept them in the hardware business.


I wouldn't rank N64 below those systems, but definitely closer to them than Playstation.

I don't see how you could rank iit anywhere near those systems. Would I rank it with the PS? No. But that was never the contention, nor the original argument from your side against the N64.


3DO and Jaguar did have a few good games, you know.

A few good games. Sure. But anything like Mario 64? Wave Race? Pilot Wings? Zelda?

No. Not even close.

The N64 is best described as an oddity unto itself -- a successful system made so mainly by first party support. The reason it worked (at least partially)? Because of how stellar many of those releases were.

j_factor
01-21-2006, 08:04 PM
The Saturn was not in the least up to doing VF3 justice, and admittedly the rushed port on DC didn't accomplish that either. But if the DC didn't do it -- it could have,m make no mistake -- what chance did the Saturn have? I don't want to imagine how bad that wuld have looked.

Part of the point of VF3 was its graphical fidelity -- how would this have been acgieved on the Saturn? An add-on? I think we all saw where that got Sega previously, and that was in regards to a system that was by all accounts (save Japan's, on merely an insular market level) a great success.

AM2 completed a Saturn port of Virtua Fighter 3 -- twice, the first being rejected by Sega due to its graphics not being up to par. The second was canned so as not to hurt sales of the DC port. The port didn't use any sort of add-on.

I'm sure it wouldn't have been 100% arcade perfect, but judging from games like Digital Dance Mix and Last Bronx, it could've been pretty damn good.


Were there many devs enthused by the Saturns kits and base architecture? No. Dreamcast was a respense and massive improvment in hardware design over the Saturn.

True. But it also gave the appearance that Sega had no intentions of standing behind their consoles. To many, Sega's quick abandonment of Saturn for DC signalled that the same would happen to the latter. And, ultimately, it did.



As for the US specifically.. Sega of America didn't come out with a single console game from May 1998 until 9-9-99.

Why not just import?

For Saturn? I did, but imports were drying up due to the DC.

Or did you mean import a DC system? That was uber pricey as I recall, and for the first 8 months or so it really had very little software.


The Dc was a hot release in Japan due to VF3TB. It sold on the strenfgth of one game, much like the Saturn's launch.

DC had a lot of buzz in Japan around its debut, but after launch, it sold miserably. And its launch was not nearly as successful as Saturn's Japan launch, or DC's US launch.



I wouldn't rank N64 below those systems, but definitely closer to them than Playstation.

I don't see how you could rank iit anywhere near those systems. Would I rank it with the PS? No. But that was never the contention, nor the original argument from your side against the N64.


3DO and Jaguar did have a few good games, you know.

A few good games. Sure. But anything like Mario 64? Wave Race? Pilot Wings? Zelda?

No. Not even close.

Yeah, but.. that's still only a few good games.

We went through N64 on the old board (I don't remember if you were part of that). I only consider around 18-20 N64 games, max, to be worth owning. Jaguar, around 14-16.

ary incorparated
01-21-2006, 09:13 PM
Yessir alien vs predator is underrated,i like the game to.But hey i like Metal head to,so maybe im al the way wrong.I like metal head for its music and a bit for its graphics,i bought it for 50 cents so cant complain.

ary incorparated
05-18-2006, 08:21 PM
16 bitter you know i was far way more pleased by the graphics on saturn then a playstation while playstation used much fmv,s and pictures in the background obviously notable like in yes final fantsay 7,im not a psx hater but it is a media catcher,but i sertainly dare to say that shining force 3 or a dark savior looked better the the so blewn upp final fantasy 7 in graphics then,heres an exemple all the fanboys say time to time,look at those renditions in final fantasy look at those textures,all that Bulshit,Dark savior you actually have a camera and that show yess that scaling and rotation in backgrounds is something that was possible that time duhhh,whil theres no camrapoint in FF7 on the map youre walking noo hell its one big Video or photo,what the hell,ugly fatt stuffed characters,actually there are quit nice i have to admit.FF7 vs Dark savior,Shining force 3,Dragon force Garndia and many other alber odeysy,boom who holds the crown now in figurely,boom nights for its graphics on topp of the Fanboystation,and a panzer dragoon saga to cut its herdwared trout and radiant silvergun for the sony psx fans to kill all of it in graphics,WTF saturns lacks 3d graphics where did that came upp they are almost arcade dedicated aldo it was a last minute option they please me somethimes more then ds dirty dwarves and gameplay music hell yeah saturn is much to underrated it does great graphics play vf megamix,radiant silvergun 1 meter distance from the screen no disturbing blocks,yess psx driver etc man do they hurt the big polygons yes they dissapeared.osx vs saturn is a notheless discusion its about uppinions and about preaching to the choir side and discriminmating saturn for graphics it does them hell good and from that point on poeple try to bring it down but actually have no good arguments for to say that its shit.Point ......

ary incorparated
05-18-2006, 08:32 PM
J factor youre the rigtest one here n64 ruled i dare to say as a sega fan.did psx had zelda oot no,for my score F zero,and some yap game like the ones of treasure misschief makers and one space harier kind of,fighters destiny and goldeneye resident evil 2 inc movie sequence,ooh yeah i vind resi looking better on saturn,did you see the elbows of jill on psx yes they are bucky on saturn just as it suposes just good,and the psx is darker as usually+plus every capcom fighter on saturn is better then the ones of its counter console.Some people(fanboys)saying mario 64 and turok 2 looked ugly compared to psx those hooks,please let those dude go F...ck emselfs or bare at WOW.thats those dumb reactions over an over aggain,not one psx title boasted Turok 2 thats a obvious fast and mario 64 is way to colourfull for oll psx,the tryd to acomplish with crash but didnt succeed,goldeneye eh eh no psx,F zero has a awesome heavy metal score witch automaticly envites ary,none psx game intrested me as much as f zero ooh yeah the sound from PD and f zero cartridge ehh better then psx,and never heard such good stuf on psx sorry,im not a fanboy but somthimes anti media lovers like psx,ps2 is awsome tough.

David J.
05-18-2006, 09:45 PM
I've maybe spent like 3 hours with an N64. I played a tad of Star Fox, Mario 64, Diddy Kong racing, NFL something or another, and Goldeneye. Nothing too impressive.

ary incorparated
05-19-2006, 05:27 AM
yes some stuf too impressive i agree as a sega fan,F zero or turok back then had me busy for longer then those 3 hours hell yeah,now its not as impressive as then.but still goldeneye is a great game esspeciale sinds n64 had the 4 controler ports very satisfieng and the two or treasure games where great,smah bros back then pDark Turok 2,beetle adventure racin hell much multiplayer fun,ohhhyeah the awseome castelvania games.Psx graphics better dumbest thing ever heard there a obvious diffrents between a ful powered 64 bit console and psx,Tomorrow never died had some of the best psx graphics but look at piercers eyebrow wehn doing te facial motion youlle see ugly blocks and his eyebrow stucked to his bottom,Yuck goldeneye was so damn sweet had everything a bond game needed,best bond game ever.I find saturn really look ways nicer then psx,a smart way to muffle the pixels away is in PD 2,it doesnt look to sahbby al the times but yeah no blocks in tha face Ds is 64 bit i find saturn somethimes better looking even then n64,hmm Fighters megamix beeing a older game looking on par wtih some n64 games.Oooh yeah It took namco 3 years later to beat VF in graphics,tekken 1 sucked in that way tekken 2 wasnt any good,tekken 3 yay finally beat VF 2 to its point,and then even ium doubting 95 vs 98 obvious and also bloody roar came out in 98 and letted me see how butt ugly the graphics where at the begining,god damn what but ugly any Saturn fighting game surpasses it almost any 3d fighter.Capcom snk was released on psx damn that one looked ass ugly it should have sticked just with the DC on that it was awsome,ill bett that saturn actually could have deliverd it kind of nicely,guardian heroes uses transparancies all over tha place,i think saturn could have handled transparancies in some 2d fighting games,dunno if they did?.

Obviously
05-19-2006, 11:09 AM
The only games I played more than a few minutes were Goldeneye, Starfox, and Super Smash Bros. There wasn't enough drop dead awesome software for the N64 to ever make me want to buy one.

ary incorparated
05-19-2006, 12:33 PM
that could be,i love it a bit,now its been faded away in my mind,but the games atracked me zelda oot,Turok 2 hell fun,i i like it that nintendo really had the graphical overhead the and actually hardware matic the total control back in 96.4 players and f zero,f zero has some of the nicest music ever in a video game snaring hard speed metall.I like it,cant help it if you dont thats just youre uppinion probably didnt had the games that suted you.I hated hybrid heaven i trown that one away.

ary incorparated
05-20-2006, 07:52 AM
a but thats a good uppinion.Hmm but the saturn was getting kicked down the ground while beeing in my eyes a superior console to the mediasation (playstation)much more games that use the full power of the system,yess some fighting games on saturn like the capcom ones are awesome,which is faster btw,saturn has 2X23 mhz dual hitachi proccessors does that maske a total of secundaire 46Mhz?when to be done ooh yeah burning rangers uses the soundchip the 68000 processor or something for graphics.Psx makes 33MHZ with just one and having only one.

Demonic Weasel
05-20-2006, 09:34 PM
The saturn owns all. That is all there is to be said.

Kikoskia
05-21-2006, 07:36 AM
I had a PC. At that time, I didn't see the point of consoles; I could use my PC to play games as well as write word documents, spreadsheet programs and the like. I prefer the PC over any of the modern day consoles are well for that reason.

I did get a PsOne eventually, but I never got many games for it and I didn't play it that much. It was there for Final Fantasy and a few resident evil titles (Oh, and Bust-A-Move 4 and Silent Bomber) but that was it really.

Speaking of which, why isn't there a 'None of the Above' option on this poll?

ary incorparated
05-21-2006, 07:37 AM
Yesss all the 2d games etc,one ofthe most unfamilair ones but the sprites are uge and the characters are blockless,almost n64 just arcade clean graphics same like dreamcast did and earned the love for that.Saturn+Dreamcast=pownage.yess its one opf my top 5 systems its the best and that all.

ary incorparated
05-21-2006, 07:42 AM
hmm i know when my friend was dragging about final fantasy 7,i grabbed my shining force and he was blew his fanboy ass away,noo no no no piuctures in the backround all fully rendered and everything is moving,final fantasy 7 had some of the uglyest picture method,that makes it like a psx character in a snes world somethimes.Shining force 3,Dark savior those are the ones who keep em scrolling and not stiffed like in a freeser.

j_factor
05-21-2006, 04:02 PM
I had a PC. At that time, I didn't see the point of consoles; I could use my PC to play games as well as write word documents, spreadsheet programs and the like. I prefer the PC over any of the modern day consoles are well for that reason.

But you can't use your PC to play NiGHTS. PC loses. :p

Obviously
05-21-2006, 04:20 PM
PC was really hitting its stride in the PS/N64 days, mostly thanks to the advent of online play, but it's spiraled down some since then and I have a hard time getting excited about PC titles anymore. I too was way more into PC gaming than I was into the Playstation or N64.

ary incorparated
05-21-2006, 04:20 PM
Kaboom and thers a big diffrence between arcade like fun and just playing games like wow(sucking game) or others standarts,pc game are so cliche and boring the dark colours of those counterstrike alike games and viet kong to many army games to difficult to understand to boring to play and ,i prefer daytona arcade over any pc game,and nichts over any pc game.offcourse pc is better else we wouldnt talk here but if where only talking about games and not the emulated ones on pc console wins arcade and multiplayer fun anywhere dont need any internet and playing aggainst people in youre own while not see and talk with em in real life,like a dreamcast 4 controller ports and 4 mates is more massive fun then 4 friends at home while one is playing wow or you swich turns,thats just boring.Dreamcast sports games and some others and foor or a genesis yu yu hakusho or others or saturn for thge matter and some good game+controllers youlle have masive fun.The gameplay is total diffrence to,how the controller connects with the game,shure you can play virtua tennis on a pc but with the wrong controller it isnt nice.

Obviously
05-21-2006, 04:23 PM
PCs have certain advantages over console gaming and consoles have certain advantages over PCs. It's always been that way and it always will be that way. I prefer to take advantage of both now-a-days.

I can't think of any bona-fide instant classics that have come out for the PC in recent years other than Half-Life 2 or MMO RPGs which is a genre I just can't stand.

j_factor
05-21-2006, 06:12 PM
PC was really hitting its stride in the PS/N64 days, mostly thanks to the advent of online play, but it's spiraled down some since then and I have a hard time getting excited about PC titles anymore. I too was way more into PC gaming than I was into the Playstation or N64.

My main gripe is that if you have a new PC, you can't really play those games anymore.

Drixxel
05-21-2006, 07:24 PM
My main gripe is that if you have a new PC, you can't really play those games anymore.

No kidding. Even if you manage to get the games to run, there's likely going to be some serious performance issues. All hail the blind march forward that is technological advancement! Hell, I can't even get System Shock 2 to work properly on my PC, and this is something that tortures my soul to no end.

David J.
05-21-2006, 07:52 PM
It's odd, some people have gotten it to work on XP with no problems, and others have. Oh well.

George Foreman
05-21-2006, 09:16 PM
To me the PS was the best of that era. They had too many games but unfortunatly at that time my parents only trusted Nintendo systems so I got a 64. There were a few games I liked on it, but most of the games I owned because my parents were familiar with the franchises. I can't believe I bought the trash that was Yoshi Story(and Bomberman Hero was pretty bad too).

lordofduct
05-22-2006, 07:48 AM
X-COM!!!!

I MISS X-COM!

Fucker just won't work on XP... grrrrrrrrrr!

MCHufnagel
05-22-2006, 08:43 AM
Hi, I've been a lurker for a few months now and finally decided to join. I voted for the N64 because I never owned a Saturn or PSX (although I now play PSX games on my PS2). I bought a Genesis and then the add ons (Segs CD, 32X) and by the time I was able to move on to a new system, the Saturn was pretty much dead here in the USA. I had problems with the quality of previous Sony products I had owned, so I bought a N64.

I really like mine, but it sure could have used more games. I bought my PS2 a couple of years ago, so I'm now playing some of those PSX games. Maybe sometime down the road I'll get a Saturn.

As far as PC gaming is concerned. I'm lucky in that I was able to find room for my old Windows 98 machine. I can still play those older games and the computer is fast enough to play the later '98 games. If you don't have the room for two computers, many swear by DosBox. Although, emluation will never be the best solution.

Demonic Weasel
05-22-2006, 09:11 AM
To me the PS was the best of that era. They had too many games but unfortunatly at that time my parents only trusted Nintendo systems so I got a 64. There were a few games I liked on it, but most of the games I owned because my parents were familiar with the franchises. I can't believe I bought the trash that was Yoshi Story(and Bomberman Hero was pretty bad too).

And what was wrong with the Saturn?

Obviously
05-22-2006, 10:01 AM
I can get several games to run with DosBox and other games to run using VDMSound .

Elusive
05-22-2006, 06:57 PM
And what was wrong with the Saturn?

He's just posting out of personal experience; like he said, he only owned a PSX and an N64, unless I missed something.

j_factor
05-23-2006, 02:57 AM
I thought DosBox was only for DOS games?

GeckoYamori
05-23-2006, 03:26 AM
DOS games were still very common up until 97/98.

Obviously
05-23-2006, 09:38 AM
Most Windows games won't give me trouble with compatibility modes or searching out fan-made patches (The Wing Commander community is especially helpful with that) but yeah, there's still several Windows games that I just can't get running and thers that will run for a while and crash at random intervals or not have sound or other things like that.

I noticed the Sega PC series of ports have a LOT of issues with XP. I couldn't get Virtua Fighter to run or Virtua Cop or House of the Dead but I can get Virtual On to run with a chance of crashing when you get a game over.

David J.
05-23-2006, 11:08 AM
But then again, the 1996 update of the Wing Commander games that run in Windows 9x is REALLY, REALLY expensive and rare.

Most Sega PC ports where/are crap anyway. ;)

George Foreman
05-23-2006, 03:49 PM
He's just posting out of personal experience; like he said, he only owned a PSX and an N64, unless I missed something.

Yeah, at that time I had never owned nor heard that much about the Saturn. Also being only around seven or eight at the time of release didn't help much either.

ary incorparated
05-23-2006, 06:12 PM
thats a while ago

j_factor
05-24-2006, 12:01 AM
Most Windows games won't give me trouble with compatibility modes or searching out fan-made patches (The Wing Commander community is especially helpful with that) but yeah, there's still several Windows games that I just can't get running and thers that will run for a while and crash at random intervals or not have sound or other things like that.

The main issue that I've had with trying to run games that are older than the computer, is them running way too fast. I bought the original Theme Park way back in '98 (when it wasn't that old, as it's from '95) to play on my then-new 450mhz K62 PC, and time was going by so fast that I couldn't do anything.

j_factor
05-24-2006, 12:02 AM
DOS games were still very common up until 97/98.

You know what else was very common in that time? Windows 95 games.

David J.
05-24-2006, 12:08 AM
Well, I traded some nice PSX games today for a variety of Saturn games today. Hell, I'm looking at getting a rid of all of my PSX games. There are some good games that I don't play, and getting a rid of them might be foolish, but I don't care. I haven't used my PSX in over a year, let alone open the cupboard it was in, until today to get some games out and trade them.

Well, my birthday is in a few weeks. And I am trying to finsh my US Saturn collection by the end of the year, and get the eight or so common imports next year. :)

Yup. I have some expensive wants, like a complete Guardian Heroes, Panzer Dragoon 1&2, and Saturn Bomberman. And a few common games that I can only find for expensive prices. :(

DrunkHeadbanger
05-25-2006, 10:22 AM
Well, I'm sure the Saturn is an awesome console and I'm looking forward to buy one, but I never played it and didn't have any friends that had one. So the PSX is my favorite of that era and I remember playing the shit out of those games: Metal Gear Solid, Tekken 1-2-3, Grand Turismo 2, Crash Bandicoot 1 and 2, Castlevania SOTN, Twisted metal 2, Project Overkill, Driver and Thunder Force V. Time Crisis and Point Blank with the Guncon were a blast too. Still are, actually.

As for the N64, I surely enjoyed some games like Mario 64, Goldeneye, Star Fox 64and Turok, but like someone told before, the graphics are too foggy on most games. The expansion pack doesn't improve things much either. Most people that I know who have a N64 can't play much games anymore because all thier controller joysticks have been slaughtered by Mario Party. Damn I hate that controller. And that game too! On the other hand, F-Zero X is the reason that made me buy that console. This games OWNS!!! (with Mario, F-Zero is by far the best Nintendo franchise IMO)

ary incorparated
05-28-2006, 07:06 PM
F zero is sweet,esspecially for its metallized musci,im curious how its going to be on the revolution,i think sick a hope crossing two dimensions of forward and backwards speed,at least somethink as fast as hell that you can boost those 2000 KMH per hour with ultra heavy metall,its hell good franchise only not anticipated on its best.ill hope to see that one,Graphically Wii is not more then a ps3 or 360 but im not in it for that their diffrent which doesnt make em uglyer right away,theyre brighter and im in it for the gameplay.

Oi_Oi_Spanky
05-29-2006, 08:50 AM
I had/still have all three. The playStation really hasn't aged well at all. The only reason & kept it was for the Resident Evil games & the Capcom collection. The Saturn has nowhere near as many, but more gems than the PlayStation. I mean, Virtua Fight 2 is reason enough to own a Saturn. Best Street Fighter translations as well. I don't know about you but I find loading times on 2D Capcom fighters on PlayStation a bit of a piss take in length. And the pads crap for them. The N64 is still a biggie for me. Gotta love Star Fox & Ocarina Of Time. The only problem of the pads got wankered after about 6 months of play. All my consoles have original pads that were boxed with the unit, I've gone through six N64 pads because of the shite, pulley system on the analogue stick. The just lose all their tensure rather rapid.

DrunkHeadbanger
05-30-2006, 11:45 AM
F zero is sweet,esspecially for its metallized musci,im curious how its going to be on the revolution,i think sick a hope crossing two dimensions of forward and backwards speed,at least somethink as fast as hell that you can boost those 2000 KMH per hour with ultra heavy metall,its hell good franchise only not anticipated on its best.ill hope to see that one,Graphically Wii is not more then a ps3 or 360 but im not in it for that their diffrent which doesnt make em uglyer right away,theyre brighter and im in it for the gameplay.

Yeah F-Zero X's music kicks ass indeed. My biggest dissapointment over GX is the forgettable techno soundtrack replacing the speed metal of earlier F-Zeros. Let's hope they're gonna return to thier roots on the Wii. Gotta miss that Big Blue song...

ary incorparated
05-30-2006, 12:35 PM
Yess,Maybe if its all nintendo aggain and not sega in it,GX wasnt dissapionting but Music wise a bit lesser aldo the lava level song when racing round the pipe sounds awsome it has some sweet solo.maybe we get a nice F zero game for DS first.Ill hope it very much that its at the same core as before.

Joe Redifer
05-30-2006, 01:20 PM
I much preferred F-Zero GX's soundtrack over F-Zero X's. Everything doesn't need to be speedmetal, you know. What disappointed me about X's soundtrack was that it was running on an N64, and was therefore mono (if I recall), very muffled and generally just really bad-sounding. Now the arranged soundtrack out in Japan for F-Zero X kicks all sorts of ass and it is absolutely amazing. They use real guitars, it's in stereo and it doesn't sound all fuzzy & muted like the N64. I'm tempted to upload a sample.

Also, you can't return to your roots by using metal if your roots are techno (F-Zero actually came out BEFORE F-Zero X and was not metal).

Drixxel
05-30-2006, 02:06 PM
I much preferred F-Zero GX's soundtrack over F-Zero X's. Everything doesn't need to be speedmetal, you know. What disappointed me about X's soundtrack was that it was running on an N64, and was therefore mono (if I recall), very muffled and generally just really bad-sounding. Now the arranged soundtrack out in Japan for F-Zero X kicks all sorts of ass and it is absolutely amazing. They use real guitars, it's in stereo and it doesn't sound all fuzzy & muted like the N64. I'm tempted to upload a sample.

Also, you can't return to your roots by using metal if your roots are techno (F-Zero actually came out BEFORE F-Zero X and was not metal).

Ehhh, techno roots? The F-Zero soundtrack is pretty much rock and light metal through and through. Sure, there are electronic elements to the music, but the music has a decidedly "rock" feel to it. TechNO!

David J.
05-30-2006, 06:47 PM
http://ourworld.cs.com/airbikecop/usasaturn.jpg

I think this sums up my thoughts about the Sega Saturn. I have a few stinkers and am missing some good games, but I got the games I like.

Joe Redifer
05-30-2006, 07:18 PM
Ehhh, techno roots? The F-Zero soundtrack is pretty much rock and light metal through and through. Sure, there are electronic elements to the music, but the music has a decidedly "rock" feel to it. TechNO!
I agree the original game is probably closer to rock than techno, but it is certainly not metal (which is usually driving guitar chords). Of course I have a hard time considering anything "rock" if it doesn't have a geetar.

Joe Redifer
05-30-2006, 09:22 PM
Taking a cue from David J, here are pics of my 32-bit collection:

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/saturngames.jpg
I only have 55 Saturn games, many of them Japanese.


http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/n64ps.jpg
My ENTIRE collection of Playstation and N64 games. 3 N64 and 15 PS games. WOW!!!

I wonder which system happened to be my favorite? Can anyone guess? Anyone?

David J.
05-30-2006, 09:44 PM
Wait, your ASTAL isn't screwed up? It says ASTAL on the spine?!

WTF. I've heard so many people complain their copy doesn't have the title on the spine. The copy I just got from a friend doesn't as you can see above. Factory error I guess. FWIF, I don't have a N64, nor do I plan on buying one. I'm parting out my PSX games.

ary incorparated
05-31-2006, 06:25 PM
Metalll fits F zero way more then Techno its a fact.Fast paced game which can be faster in the future,I dunno about the japanese vesrion but if it has some nice tunes i might buy it some time my heads made out of Mettall(Not tough)hmmm Perfect dark had good stereo Quality guitar music some times and als N64 has much channels dont know how many but many,it could handle nicer synth guitar then Neo geo AES i think aldo metal slug 5 sounds awesome.Dolby surround pumped all into a cartridge and guitar pretty nice for cartridge.those n64 cartridges weight much.

Demonic Weasel
05-31-2006, 06:29 PM
Hot damn! Joe, Dave, either of you mind if I swoop into your house and steal your collections?

David J.
05-31-2006, 06:38 PM
Hey, it has taken me five years to gather that many games, well at CHEAP prices.
I think the most I spent on any of those games was $20.

Demonic Weasel
05-31-2006, 09:51 PM
Most of the games that I want I could get at fairly cheap prices anyway. The problem is the ones that come at around or over $100 as a matter of course.

ary incorparated
06-04-2006, 07:08 PM
Ive just bought terminator CD,sweet tommy talrico he did hell of a job with some tracks first guitar and some of the best remaining hell yeah,he made metall out of that game great,the main track awesome.Lords of thunder is also a fun game on mega cd not that much but fun,i like it above the Pc engine one cause its on a sega,maybe the other one is better but as a sega fanboy i dont care becuase mega cd is a great and better system then the TG 16 CD i my tought.genesis+megacd is Ultimate fun especialy with the vacation coming soon.

George Foreman
06-13-2006, 05:16 PM
I found a couple Saturns at this store in Indianapolis that almost no one ever goes to and was thinking about picking one up. However, they had them on sale for fourty bucks. Is the Saturn worth the cost of admission?

David J.
06-13-2006, 07:15 PM
You can find one for cheaper than that, if it has no games.

ary incorparated
06-19-2006, 08:34 PM
i bought mine back in the days for 100 euro and one on the flee market for 5 euros,nice deals LOL.

Barracuda
07-06-2006, 07:40 AM
I'd have to vote N64.

Sega Saturn x
07-08-2006, 04:12 PM
I'm sure you can see bias practically oozing from my screen name. But don't worry I may be a saturn fan but I'm not totally daft.:p When all the systems were alive I greatly enjoyed the psx for the fantatsic resident evil games and the odd 2-d fighter or shooter that came my way. The 64 never got alot of use, the games simply put weren't good. They still aren't. I vastly prefer the cubes updates of these games to their n64 templates anyway. At this time the saturn was just a strange (and rather large) system with the really small shelf space.
Fast forward to after the systems are dead and fortune has it I find a boxed saturn with 4 games and a memory cart for 30$ at a used game shop. Sounds good to me, after all I had loved the dreamcast and trusted the sega brand. Wait no no, my memory sucks. I had purchased a saturn BEFORE this, just so I could play nights. Whcih I got really cheaply some days prior. I played it and loved it however the internal memory was dead, and I didn't have the fortitude to beat it in one sitting. So I returned the saturn and kept nights for whatever reason. I also picked up fighting vipers which sucked of course.
Nights left quite an impression on me. And in the time I was snas saturn I did a lot of reseach on the system lots of it on the now defunct sega-saturn.com. My interest in the system grew as I saw it was well endowed with my favorite genres that I loved on the psx and snes prior. By that of course I mean shooters and 2-d fighters. So NOW we are back to me picking up the staurn at that used game store, the saturn I still own today.
I started playing virtua fighter 2 and nights and the rest as they say is history. I couldn't get the picture to work of my saturn stuff but I have around 50 games at this point. Some are excellent and some are 4X4 hardcore. Anyone who says they never played a bad saturn agme never played THAT woderful piece of tripe.
And as I find myself returning to some fo my favorite titles of the 32 bit generation I'm finding them harder and harder to play and above all look at. Most of my favorite psx titles leave me wondering what I ever liked about these games in the first place. And seeing games like marvel super heroes on both system just makes the psx look even worse. Of course there are still some games I love but the vast majority of titles I did like I simply find unplayabel now. The 64 is even worse, games I was so fond of at the time like harvest moon have just aged horribly. Especially when pitted aginst it's psx sibling, yuck! The only game I find the n64 worth keeping around for is ogre battle 64. There you have it why I'm a saturn man. The saturn is my favorite sega system around, it has argueably the best library of 2-d fighters and shooters out there. Plus a full back catalog of great arcade translations. For my money you can't do better than that.

kyouki
07-11-2006, 05:55 PM
Boy, this is a tough decision.

I owned all three back when they were out. I bought the N64 first, only really enjoyed Mario 64, then sold it off. Then I bought a PSX, and really only enjoyed Soul Blade, Tekken 2, Castlevania, and Legend of Mana.

So I got a Saturn a year or so after that, and that's when I got my first taste of imports. :) I remember ordering those n-in-1 carts along with KOF 95 (I think), XmenvSF, and Samurai Spirits 4!!!! After playing the awful 2d games on PSX, seeing Samurai Spirits in motion on the Saturn was just mind-blowing.

I owned the PSX the longest, but I would say I enjoyed the Saturn the most of all three.

j_factor
07-12-2006, 01:54 AM
That reminds me of something that really irks me.

When Playstation was first hitting, SCEA made this big deal about getting exclusive rights to SNK games. They struck a deal with SNK wherin SCEA would publish SNK releases on Playstation, doing all the localization and marketing and etc., in exchange for publishing rights on all SNK games, except on the Neo Geo platforms. SCEA put out the first two games, King of Fighters '95 and Samurai Shodown 3. Then they canned everything else. But they didn't let SNK out of their contract either. So essentially they prevented SNK from putting their games out. Thanks to Sony, for the next couple of years SNK games in the US could only come out on Neo Geo. SNK couldn't bring over their Saturn ports; they couldn't even self-publish for Playstation or give their games to another publisher, because SCEA had the publishing rights.

Considering he was with SCEA at the time, I wonder if Bernie Stolar had anything to do with that. I bet he did, since it's just the kind of bitchy thing he'd do. Did I mention I don't like Bernie Stolar?

fruitsofherwomb
07-12-2006, 03:18 AM
I picked playstation, i couldn't import games. Sega stopped supporting the saturn :( .

Plus For some reason i really enjoyed Mediocore games at that time, Like Megaman Legends.

Elusive
07-12-2006, 06:39 PM
Just as a sidenote: Electronics Boutique (before they were bought up by ... Gamestation? I dunno) was the only high street chain to stock Saturn imports on the shelves in the day. One could say the Saturn was the first (only?)true 'import-friendly' console, and look how big the importing business is today.

j_factor
07-13-2006, 12:23 AM
Just as a sidenote: Electronics Boutique (before they were bought up by ... Gamestation? I dunno) was the only high street chain to stock Saturn imports on the shelves in the day. One could say the Saturn was the first (only?)true 'import-friendly' console, and look how big the importing business is today.

I still don't know what "high street" means, but I recall import Saturn games being available at Virgin Megastore and Fry's Electronics, and briefly Funcoland.

Still, that is something. Before Saturn, the only way to get imports was through mail order or going to an actual import store. I don't think any system since Saturn has had that level of import availability (in B&M stores) either. I know EB sold European copies of Shenmue II, but that was the only DC import they ever had.


Plus For some reason i really enjoyed Mediocore games at that time, Like Megaman Legends.

Mega Man Legends was (and still is) a kick-ass game. I was never a Mega Man fan and I liked Legends.

fruitsofherwomb
07-13-2006, 05:11 AM
I didn't like Mega Man Legends 2 as much as the first one. Tron Bonn Game was alright tho.

Demonic Weasel
07-13-2006, 09:56 PM
I know that I said it before, but I have to say it again. The Saturn is simply the best choice to make. Sure, sure it had crap on it, but when you got quality you got quality. The PSX on the other hand offered mediocrity in ridiculous amounts. Ridiculous. RIDICULOUS!

HetmanTancred
07-17-2006, 01:01 PM
I voted for the Saturn. After hearing mostly terribly things about it (besides Panzer Dragoon Saga and Nights) I decided to buy it a few months ago for the same reasons that I want to buy a Jaguar, Colecovision, and a 3DO. Anyway, when I got this huge package in the mail, I open it and literally there was a goddamn tank inside.

I was already laughing at it, but I quickly fell in love with it. Unlike my Dreamcast which I bought about 2 months prior which took me a while to get into, I instantly fell in love with the Saturn. Hell, my internal battery was dead so I left the Saturn on for 2 days when I was playing Dragonforce until I had the chance to go and get a battery for it. I hardly ever played the N64 and whenever I did, I wasn't impressed other than Mario 64. The Playstation's games haven't aged well and the only good ones in the first place were some of the RPG's. Some were good, some were bad. But the Saturn just instantly pulled me in...

TidalTempest
07-18-2006, 09:00 AM
I would have to choose Saturn, as it was the one console out of the three that I had the most fun with. N64 would follow in second place, and PS1 in a distant third.

The N64 may have the smallest library of games of the three systems, but it also has some of the best games of that generation. Super Mario 64, Goldeneye, Ocarina of Time, Perfect Dark, Jet Force Gemini, Banjo Kazooie, to list just a few. Top quality games, that still haven't can't be beaten nearly a decade later.

Me and a few friends were still playing Goldeneye deathmatch two full years after it's release, and the only reason we quit is because we knew each other's tactics too well to make it interesting anymore.

PS1 had the largest library of games, but not many good ones. I had a few friends with PS1's, but we hardly touched them - we were either too busy playing Goldeneye deathmatch, or playing Saturn games like Sega Rally and Virtua Fighter 2.

Saturn had probably the best ratio of tripple A to crap game. Outside of Japan it may have looked different, but we still got some great games over here. Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter 2, NiGHTS, the Panzer Dragoon series, the Street Fighter Alpha games, are just a few of the great titles available for the system. It also had the best pad for fighters, and in most games in general. The PS1 pad was, and still is shite, and the N64 pad was good for the games the system had, but it never would have worked for games like fighters.

Psy
07-22-2006, 09:50 PM
PSX 3D capabilities wasn't that bad, yes games like Spyro have shit graphics (with laughably bad character designs) but the PSX did do better just look at the graphics of say Gran Turismo. Also games like Harvest Moon: Back To Nature still look good.

The Saturn has more power under the hood then the PSX but it has a bad bottle neck due to Sega slaping in a second CPU late in the Saturn's devlopment causing devlopers to worry about timing.

The carts for N64 made N64 games more expensive, yes Mario 64 looked impressive back then but it also cost more, the carts also prevented N64 gamers from getting demo discs and the costs of carts turned devlopers away.

In the end the PSX did offer devlopers what they wanted while the Saturn and N64 had critical design flaws (from the devlopers point of view)

Demonic Weasel
07-23-2006, 12:24 PM
Yeah, but the problem with the Saturn was because the PS created an impossible situation. The Saturn was orignally supposed to offer the most advanced 2D games yet, but the PS created a popular calling for 3D. Another 2D system wouldn't be able to fully compete. So they had to change things at the last minute. And the did better out of it by offering overall better games. So nya.

Psy
07-23-2006, 01:13 PM
Yeah, but the problem with the Saturn was because the PS created an impossible situation. The Saturn was orignally supposed to offer the most advanced 2D games yet, but the PS created a popular calling for 3D. Another 2D system wouldn't be able to fully compete. So they had to change things at the last minute. And the did better out of it by offering overall better games. So nya.

Fist off the Saturn orignally could do 3D just not as good as the PSX. Next it was stupid of Sega to think they could just add a second SH-2 without redesigning the Saturn architecture so the Saturn could take full advantage of the second SH-2. I also think Sega launching a streamlined Saturn in 1996 would have been much better, yes it would have ment Sega engineers working their asses off but if the engineers could have pulled it off in the short timeframe, the Saturn could have done much better with N64s failings and devlopers not having to work hard to get their games to look better on the Saturn then on the PSX, the Saturn could have done much better.

j_factor
07-23-2006, 07:16 PM
Even the earliest of early Saturn designs had included 3D capability as a point of importance. All the way back in 1992, Sega released Virtua Racing, and had other 3D arcade games in the works. There's no way Sega wouldn't be taking arcade ports in consideration when designing their next system. The idea of Saturn was to do both 3D and 2D well, figuring that improved 2D would still be important.

Saturn's problem was that it was a bit rushed, and its SDK's were pure shit. Some developers resorted to creating their own devkits from scratch because the Sega-provided ones were so terrible. Why go through all that trouble when Playstation has this easy C++ kit? Few developers did. The Saturn hardware is actually more powerful than Playstation (yes, for 3D), but developers rarely showed it.

Demonic Weasel
07-23-2006, 08:45 PM
The reason it was a bit rushed was because it wasn't made to be mainly a 3D competitor right away. And it was that change that rushed it.

Psy
07-23-2006, 09:36 PM
The Saturn hardware is actually more powerful than Playstation (yes, for 3D), but developers rarely showed it.Yes but the Saturn doesn't take full advantage of the dual SH-2 CPUs due to bottlenecks caused from going from a single SH-2 to dual SH-2.

Demonic Weasel
07-23-2006, 10:46 PM
Technical issues aside the PS still didn't show the same general quality in games as the Saturn. The Saturn had some pretty awful games, but when they showed quality then the game was damn good. Almost all of the PS games were mediocre at best, with very few really good games and too many that just plain crashed.

j_factor
07-24-2006, 01:59 AM
The reason it was a bit rushed was because it wasn't made to be mainly a 3D competitor right away. And it was that change that rushed it.

I don't think that's what changed at the end. No way would they still have been so 2d-oriented for their upcoming console design after they saw 3DO. In fact, the Saturn design specs at one point had ARM CPUs.

It was rushed because it was (re-)redesigned late. The first model of Saturn actually used some off-the-shelf parts.

108 Stars
07-24-2006, 09:11 AM
The PlayStation 1 is probably the best console ever released.
The huge amount of games sure brought on some crap too, but a lot of classics were released as well in all genres.
Final Fantasy series + Tactics, Suikoden, Chrono Cross, DQ 7, Metal Gear Solid, Tekken, Gran Turismo, WipEout, Grand Theft Auto, Legacy of Kain, Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Syphon Filter, Forsaken, Soul Blade, Vagrant Story, Ridge Racer, Alundra, Warcraft 2, Diablo, Command īn Conquer...
Maybe if the Saturn had lived long enough to show itīs full potential he would have surpassed the PlayStation, but the customers decided not to let it happen.
As it is we have some great classics on Saturn, but not as many as on PSX. Graphically the majority of Saturn games looked a bit weaker than their PSX-rivals thanks to the Satīs difficult hardware architecture. Only Sega was able to show what their machine was capable of.
The N64 was especially good with 3D-platformers and shooters, but otherwise the software library was too thin.
I know that for some reason many people hold a grudge against the PlayStations, but I think the facts speak for themselves: PSX games are sold even today in Europe, while in the same time two (!) Sega consoles were born and died. Itīs obvious that it was impossible for the Saturn to have as many classics in itīs much shorter lifetime as the PlayStation had till today.

Demonic Weasel
07-24-2006, 11:37 AM
Those games may still be sold today, but honestly most of them are more dubious than what they're made out to be.

And I say that the Saturn classics were better than the PS classics. Heh, we seem to butt heads on every subject, eh?

108 Stars
07-24-2006, 03:24 PM
@Demonic Weasel;)

Yeah, but does it matter?
Forums are there to discuss different opinions. Would be kind of boring if we all agreed on things.

But there is one thing I agree with you:
Most of the PlayStation 1 games produced nowadays are crappy; theyīre just
kidīs software.

Demonic Weasel
07-24-2006, 07:37 PM
Oh no, I enjoy these friendly debates myself.

I stand by the fact though that most of the PS games are overrated although there are some that are damn good. Don't take me wrong, the PS has some really excellent games. But I prefer my Saturn. So nya.

j_factor
07-25-2006, 12:14 AM
Pretty much all of those super-late PSX releases were crap. Screw you, Mud Duck!

HolyBloody16Bitter
08-07-2006, 12:59 PM
N64 Is the best console of the 3. The Best Graphics on a cartridge. Games like Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Mario 64 and F - Zero were great on this system. The other two had bad graphics and less games that made it for me less interesting.

108 Stars
08-07-2006, 01:07 PM
N64 Is the best console of the 3. The Best Graphics on a cartridge. Games like Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Mario 64 and F - Zero were great on this system. The other two had bad graphics and less games that made it for me less interesting.

I like even the graphics better on Saturn and Playstation. I prefer pixelation from that 3-wishy-washy-textures-on-screen-with-white-fog-five-feet-ahead-N64-graphics.
And though many of the N64 games were really good, there were way too few games at all. I prefer having a big selection to choose from.

j_factor
08-08-2006, 01:07 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't say that N64 had the best graphics of the three, nor the best games, nor the best selection of games, nor the best controller... not really the best anything.

ary incorparated
08-13-2006, 09:31 PM
Hmm 64 with wite fog it just looked good bit washed but ehy the psx rtied to be dark an unclear too,in most of the time psx showed pretty damn visuals while saturn showed arcade inscreen almost,soem saturn games that where early where brigt colourfull maybe somethimes to pixelated but did what the must do,while some psx games looked gooed but had bucks small charaters lags walls you could run trough and the awfull bucks in driver,the psx lasted longer and could develope enternally but i find Fighters megamix having lesser pxels then tekken 3,same stroy sega rally lesser pixels in the eye then GTrismo 1 and 2,many times saturn is not showing ugly in the eye blocks whil psx did resident evel on saturn bit lighter but on psx washed graphics buck in the entire character and the character doesnt have knees while the saturn version has big and good charater sprited DOA,psx small characters Saturn huge unblocky charaters and was an early release.Hell yess saturn can handle ff8 i even bousted surpassed that with many RPG,s Graphic wise then PD saga vs Thumb and assgay game ff7 PS saga wins Staurn mother of the most clear 2D screens even does the job standing up to dreamcast WHyTFuck didnt they make a late japanese release of Capcom vs Snk for saturn instead of wasting money on a worldwide crappy psx game of it.

Mr Smith
08-14-2006, 03:30 PM
Although I found the N64 to be a fun console, with the previously mentioned good games, I found the PSX much more absorbing. I never liked the Saturn and the only half decent game I ever played on it was Nights.

Demonic Weasel
08-16-2006, 09:56 PM
Well then you must never have played many games on the Saturn.

And as regards the game selections, the PS had a huge library. The problem with that was that a lot of games tended to be mediocre at best, although it was possible to find good ones.

The Saturn didn't have as many games, but it tended to have an overall very diverse library if people were willing to look around a bit.

The N64 had some good games, but really it's library sucked.

Joe Redifer
08-16-2006, 11:20 PM
I think there may have been 5 good games for the N64. Waverace 64 was probably my favorite. Other good ones are of course Mario 64, Pilotwings 64, and a couple of others with "64" after the title (they sure were creative with their naming). Although I feel that the Gamecube only had about the same amount of good games (maybe a few more), I still like the Gamecube about 100000x better than the N64 because at least the GC wasn't so damn blurry! Also the GC has some of my favorite games of all time, so that helps as well.

George Foreman
08-16-2006, 11:26 PM
I think there may have been 5 good games for the N64. Waverace 64 was probably my favorite. Other good ones are of course Mario 64, Pilotwings 64, and a couple of others with "64" after the title (they sure were creative with their naming). Although I feel that the Gamecube only had about the same amount of good games (maybe a few more), I still like the Gamecube about 100000x better than the N64 because at least the GC wasn't so damn blurry! Also the GC has some of my favorite games of all time, so that helps as well.


Sucked for me cause when I was younger my parents bought me nothing but Nintendo system cause that was the only brand they really knew. Hell, my first non-Nintendo system was my Dreamcast. Also, I always found Pilotwings 64 boring. Maybe it was because of my young age and short attention span. Bomberman 64 is the only game I really feel like playing on the system.

Joe Redifer
08-16-2006, 11:35 PM
Throw it away and play Super Monkey Ball on the Gamecube. One of the best games EVAR. It's so good that I can't even spell "ever" correctly. Avoid Super Monkey Ball Deluxe on Xbox and Playstation 2.

Mr Smith
08-18-2006, 05:49 AM
I cannot understand why Mario 64 is worshiped. I would rather spend my time playing Batman Returns. Mario 64 did nothing but annoy me and I was very quick to sell it on ebay.

ary incorparated
08-18-2006, 08:54 PM
That can be it was a bit bring afterall yes,not that great.Saturn has 3d as a last minute addition and the 3d on saturn is on par or somethimes even better the psx?look at shenmue beta psx never could have doen that.

108 Stars
08-19-2006, 07:23 AM
That can be it was a bit bring afterall yes,not that great.Saturn has 3d as a last minute addition and the 3d on saturn is on par or somethimes even better the psx?look at shenmue beta psx never could have doen that.

Oh please...when it comes to 3D, the PSX was better than the Saturn. It has lots of graphic effects the Saturn is missing, even the simple transparency. The point is only very few developers were able to get good 3D graphics out of the Saturn. I admit that the FPS on Saturn really look better, but besides them, almost every game that appeared on both consoles looked better on PSX. More polygons and effects like goraud shading or transparency and light effects were PSX standards hardly seen on Saturn. The Saturn had itīs share of good 3D graphics, like VF 2, Panzer Dragoon Saga or Nights, but not half as many as the PSX.:blah:
The Saturn is just a 2D killer machine. You cannot judge a consoleīs 3D capability by a game that you never really played on the real hardware. Like today, many demos were fake back then, having a bit of cosmetic improvements for show.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 10:32 AM
Ahhh please ever seen burning ranger nah wel did ya Transparacies all over the place panzer dragoon saga urm shinig force 3,erm what more Radiant silvergun Tf5 ahh please Yes GT2 looks better then sega rally but shows more blocks in the face yes psx was so good how about sonic r not a single block polygon in youre face how about Vf 2,How about mr bones how about Fighters megamix,and certainly the 2d games but i dont care for those so much,Shenmue PSX never could have handled that im sure it takes processing tricks many 3d on saturn use processing tricks ohh yeah psx cant do that it only has one while saturn has 2 for the score and ah whipping 50 mhz total.Come on the first and last game like street fighte ex and Bloody roar still looked ass ugly and blocky,while the good old Vf2 beats them so simple night maybe more blocky but the colors are vibrant almost no bucks whil Driver has allot and presentates more intresting screenplay then psx.For youre info Duke 3d what are the lightning efect on the wal yyeeessssssss transparacies Uh.Psx want that good at al now it rots in my basement Crash bandicaot so cliche so boring so ugly and driver Broing multi media shit i really dont care for psx games the 2d game ugly on psx and the 3d game yes GTA was fun the rest bored me ass hell,Dtreet fighte ex 2 that one was also great 2 games,BTW i care for DMC and God of warr but those werent on psx,I really didnt like psx Die hard trilologie saturn had that one Fighting frce saturn had Guardian heroes,Driver saturn had Sega rally or other games in that genre?.Rpg,s psx had Grandia staurn had a less washed looking game of this and the saturn one was better.Doa psx had it saturn had only the psx version is poorfor a 2 years later release same for resident evel first satyrn then psx got the bucky one,Same for Tomb raider saturn did get it first then psx,Psx shows very Many bucks and goes deffect earlier then the saturn.ohh yeah silouete mirage Transparacies ohh yeah Guadian heroes should keep going while you keep reading wikipedia about saturn having no transparancies.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 10:43 AM
Oh please...when it comes to 3D, the PSX was better than the Saturn. It has lots of graphic effects the Saturn is missing, even the simple transparency. The point is only very few developers were able to get good 3D graphics out of the Saturn. I admit that the FPS on Saturn really look better, but besides them, almost every game that appeared on both consoles looked better on PSX. More polygons and effects like goraud shading or transparency and light effects were PSX standards hardly seen on Saturn. The Saturn had it´s share of good 3D graphics, like VF 2, Panzer Dragoon Saga or Nights, but not half as many as the PSX.:blah:
The Saturn is just a 2D killer machine. You cannot judge a console´s 3D capability by a game that you never really played on the real hardware. Like today, many demos were fake back then, having a bit of cosmetic improvements for show.


The Saturn is just a 2D killer machine. You cannot judge a console´s 3D capability by a game that you never really played on the real hardware. Like today, many demos were fake back then, having a bit of cosmetic improvements for show.[/QUOTE]!!!!!!!! ohh no there wherent demos of shenmue werent there of course there where demos and my friend had a demo of the game on a saturn Demo and it was running same as the movie looked as nice and did the stuff so please first saturn ould handle 3d very good without bugs and second i dont understand the complaining about saturn 3d limitations i really dont im happy with them over happy????? maybe it isnt psx then nah then its just saturn and good Mann pd saga psx never and never can fix that FF8 erm Prerendered crap cough cough.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 10:53 AM
i have to say this Bloody roar vs vitua fighter 2hahahahahahahahaha Bloody roar suck so hard with its too ugly blocky/bucky graphics psx has more bucks.And ports where better on psx aah yess those ports where the same that where released 2 years later on psx so they could polish them resident evel looks nicer yes but has allot more buck on the psx they couldnt even make nkees for jill how sadd and psx had wishy washy graphics also dark and unclear resolutions same as psx 2d games ran in interpolated mode Yuck,and ports better on psx how many capcom 2d fighters are there every single one of the is better on saturn by 50%.and dont forget Grandia saturn is better.

108 Stars
08-19-2006, 02:29 PM
As far as I know there has never been a playable Shenmue-demo on Saturn. They showed the Saturn version the first time when Shenmue 2 was released.
Ary, donīt get me wrong, but your praise of the Saturnīs power sounds pretty fanboyish.
You cannot just add both CPUsī power and say itīs 50 Mhz. Hardly anyone has ever been able to push the Saturn to itīs limits because the complicated architecture sucked.
Saying "if the Saturn would have had this or that game it would have been better than the PSX-version" is mere fortune telling.
Why do you always talk about Bloody Roar? Yes, that game sucked, but it was a second class title anyway. I think both Tekken 3 and Soul Blade looked better than Virtua Fighter 2. Gran Turismo 1 and 2 and Ridge Racer Type 4 looked better than any Saturn racer.
Sonic R looked good, granted, the same goes for Burning Rangers, but so do many other games on the PSX too, like Gex 3D, Syphon Filter, Soul Reaver, Metal Gear Solid, Vagrant Story, all WipEout games, Forsaken...
If you say Grandia on PSX looks washed, I guess you saw it with the PS2īs mip mapping.
And whatīs the problem with pre rendered backgrounds? Neither PSX nor Saturn were able to generate a big and detailed world in real-time 3D, so using pre-rendered backgrounds was a wise choice. Final Fantasy VII, VIII, IX, Chrono Cross and the Resident Evil games were all great looking games for their time. Man, just look at the special FX in the FF-games, they look good even today! And the textures in FFIX and CC games were pretty high res for their time.
Die Hard Trilogy was better on PSX graphically(transparency again).
Maybe there were games who had transparency effects, but most did not have them, just look at the awfull Saturn Alien Trilogy or Toshinden!
I admitted that most FPS look better on the Saturn but those are few anyway, and the PSX got good FPS later on too, for example Life Force Tenka, Disruptor or Medal of Honor.
I like the Saturn, but saying he was better in 3D is ridiculous.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 03:29 PM
yeah but did you never see transparancies on a saturn or something there defnitly their it seems like youre negleckting everything i say Urm youre talking about gran turismo when that game was released the saturn already died and for the score Virtua fighter 2 tekken 1 1994 or 1995 looks crap compared so does tekken 2 and 3 finally surpasses it same with soul blade released in 1998,but man final fatasy 8 is very very prerendered and you know it youll just see everythin Fmv or photo except for the characters inc animations BTW yes the did manages to let both processors work together and my vriend played the shenmue demo no Fcking matter what hes a freelancer and was there when they talked about that game it worked great,hmm BTW soul edge is boring as hell and same for tekken 3 theyre just fighting games Gran turismo yeah great urm boring dark graphics ill bet youll going to start over how great Colling mc rea is yeah great as polygons sticking out of the floor man the earlie games like Virtua cop sonic R and more had no bothering polygons serious same for fighters megamix no bothering big huge pixels yeah i sound like a fanboy but i aint sticking only with saturn i just sum up my site of my story,man come on everyone knows saturn can do transparancies with ease many games have that,Here i even choose Tg 16 cd over psx or Pc98 much more to discover and lot more games that envolve real Fun and virbrant colors,saturn has more fighters and in 2D those are best and better on saturn(in that time) psx has such dark colors and crash bandicoat ahh please that one is boring ass hell n64 first place.What if i sound fanboyish what are you going to reply aggainst it decently.i stil play nights and i dont play any psx game anymore most of my mates dont and street fighter alpha on saturn has guitar music while the psx game sucks,Silouete mirage great game.I know everybody would say psx and saturn suck in graphics but i think that saturn has very very good 3d harware look 2 PD saga if that wasnt true then even these discussion where here,okay psx better then saturn graphic wise but bores after a whil.Now im surging for retro and not for my psx cause thats no fun every single games is available in the Games store round the corner and with saturn i fun to search for a cheap version of Radiant silvergun or other games,you cant find em as easy as psx that why i have played many psx and dont like it anymore,saturn im just starting,FF7 they going to say rare i can find it for 5 euros and i hate it it doesnt look good.

Demonic Weasel
08-19-2006, 03:31 PM
You do have to be fair though and admit that there were quite a few games on the Saturn that did look very nice.

And personally I think that they had better quality most of the time too.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 03:32 PM
anyway, and the PSX got good FPS later on too, for example Life Force Tenka, Disruptor or Medal of Honor.
I like the Saturn, but saying he was better in 3D is ridiculous.
__________________first period yes second period it only had japan for support
overall graphics id say it would be equally saturn ways better 2d while psx better 3d Capcom vs Snk looked so But screwed ugly on psx.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 03:34 PM
sorry if i was rude but Saturn is a very good 3D console and not weak i think,would have been nice if a sega rally had miroring on the car same as psx but it cant do do that i think.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 03:51 PM
Hmm I think the complicated harware was envolving more porgrammers thinking about the posibilitys instead of just dumping it on the C: cart of the psx,i dont know but many and many saturn games arent played out just within a day and many psx games are overrated Medie evel please come on that on was crap Mr bones was many times better,the saturn is more arcade deicated and thats better for me same as Dreamcast i love my dreamcast for that reason more themn my ps2,see im not a fanboy i have a ps2,devil may cry is nice but im not interested in those games and god of war was to slow for me.Crazi taxi 2 maybe strange game and totally strange game but i love it cause its arcade sonic adventure i love it above any ps2 title.Lets keep it on that the 3D on saturn also is very satisvying it probably is going about a few inches diffrence.Radiant silvergun ive never seen that on psx:b.

j_factor
08-19-2006, 04:24 PM
You guys are being silly. Playstation and Saturn were relatively equal machines. Playstation's 3D prowess and Saturn's 2D prowess are greatly exaggerated.

For 3D, Playstation has its problems just as Saturn does. Saturn has problems with transparencies (the lack thereof), Playstation has problems with texture seaming. While both systems had a good amount of development behind them, they produced equally good-looking 3D games. Bringing up Playstation games from 1999 doesn't count.

As for 2D, Playstation really only seems to have big issues with 2D fighters. Platformers n' stuff are fine.

Saturn is not a strictly 2D machine, and Playstation is not a strictly 3D machine. That's just hyperbole.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 04:46 PM
But i ve seen many transparacies in saturn game even in panzer dragoon games the transparancies are there.Radiant silvergun lots of transperancies Guardian heores youve played em right?.I think their both hardware technically great but saturn can handle good 3dc Sometimes even better mostly psx but with a few inches,2d saturn can handle this better while psx comes really close.I have to say saturn and 3D no problem it looks just great i couldnt expect better so its far way not limited.Gba thats really crappy and limted 3D for a 32bit system and also since its beeing released 7 years after the saturn.

108 Stars
08-19-2006, 05:00 PM
You do have to be fair though and admit that there were quite a few games on the Saturn that did look very nice.

And personally I think that they had better quality most of the time too.

Iīve said that several times. Although one can argue about the overall quality of both consolesīgames forever. For me personally, the interesting Saturn games are fewer than the good PSX games.;)


yeah but did you never see transparancies on a saturn or something there defnitly their it seems like youre negleckting everything i say

No, I just stand to my opinion. AS I said, some Saturn games had transparency, but it is well known that they were not an easy thing to do on the Saturn, so many games have raster-effects instead of transparency.:blah:


my vriend played the shenmue demo no Fcking matter what hes a freelancer and was there when they talked about that game it worked great
Sorry, your friend can say what he wants, Iīve never heard of anyone who played Shenmue on Saturn.:hand:


final fatasy 8 is very very prerendered and you know it youll just see everythin Fmv or photo except for the characters inc animations

However, I prefer prerendered graphics from blocky polygons like Grandia, and so did most people.


soul edge is boring as hell and same for tekken 3 theyre just fighting games Gran turismo yeah great urm boring dark graphics

A lot of people enjoyed those games, including me. Tekken 3 is probably the most popular 3D Beatém up ever. And I donīt understand what made Gran Turismoīs graphics boring...:confused:


fighters megamix no bothering big huge pixels

But less detailed than Tekken 3.


Here i even choose Tg 16 cd over psx or Pc98 much more to discover and lot more games that envolve real Fun and virbrant colors

You canīt be serious. PC 98?:shame:


psx has such dark colors and crash bandicoat ahh please that one is boring ass hell

Both PSX and Saturn have 16, 7 million colours, so I donīt think the PSXīcolours are darker. Maybe the style of the colourfull Sega games is brighter overall, but thatīs a matter of taste. As for Crash Bandicoot: it was a good jumpīn run with great graphics for itīs time.


i stil play nights and i dont play any psx game anymore most of my mates dont and street fighter alpha on saturn has guitar music while the psx game sucks

Not many people are playing either of both consoles nowadays; you play Nights because your a retro fan. Personally Iīm playing Chrono Cross and MGS right now, two PSX titles. Unfortunately I have only played the PSX version of Street Fighter Alpha, but I know that the Saturnīs sound capabilities are better than those of the PSX.


Now im surging for retro and not for my psx cause thats no fun every single games is available in the Games store round the corner and with saturn i fun to search for a cheap version of Radiant silvergun or other games,you cant find em as easy as psx that why i have played many psx and dont like it anymore,saturn im just starting,FF7 they going to say rare i can find it for 5 euros and i hate it it doesnt look good.

Yes, Saturn games are harder to find, and because of that maybe more fun to hunt down, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the consoles. And Final Fantasy VII was a graphical revolution in 1997.:pop:


first period yes second period it only had japan for support
overall graphics id say it would be equally saturn ways better 2d while psx better 3d Capcom vs Snk looked so But screwed ugly on psx.

Sorry, I donīt understand...did you just say the PSX was better in 3D and the Saturn in 2D? Thatīs just what I said in the beginning!
And there were at least some good 2D-games on PSX too: Street Fighter Alpha 3 was a very good port imho.


sorry if i was rude but Saturn is a very good 3D console and not weak i think,would have been nice if a sega rally had miroring on the car same as psx but it cant do do that i think.

Okay, no need to be sorry.;)


Hmm I think the complicated harware was envolving more porgrammers thinking about the posibilitys instead of just dumping it on the C: cart of the psx,i dont know but many and many saturn games arent played out just within a day and many psx games are overrated Medie evel please come on that on was crap Mr bones was many times better,the saturn is more arcade deicated and thats better for me same as Dreamcast i love my dreamcast for that reason more themn my ps2,see im not a fanboy i have a ps2,devil may cry is nice but im not interested in those games and god of war was to slow for me.Crazi taxi 2 maybe strange game and totally strange game but i love it cause its arcade sonic adventure i love it above any ps2 title.Lets keep it on that the 3D on saturn also is very satisvying it probably is going about a few inches diffrence.Radiant silvergun ive never seen that on psx:b.

Now weīve got the point: Youīre an arcade fan and I am not. I like Beatém ups once in a while, but RPGs and Action-Adventures are much more important to me.
But I donīt think Medievil was overrared, I liked it very much.
Sonic Adventure impressed me with itīs graphics, but I think it was all show but no gameplay. You just keep running and running, enjoying the graphics but thereīs not much to do. And the second player has problems because Tails is slower.
Iīve played Crazy Taxi, but after half an hour I got bored, itīs arcade style again, and I donīt like that. I like more complex games.

But still I admit that the Saturn is a good console, and the 3D graphics are close to the PSX with superior 2D graphics and sound. But I had the feeling that you were just bashing the PSX unfair, so I had to defend it because itīs my favourite console besides the Mega Drive. The biggest problem of the PSX is that it goes defective easily. Iīve had three PlayStations, and even the third one is not working properly anymore.
But Ary, thatīs what forums are for, discussions. If we all had the same opinion it would be a boring forum. So letīs make peace, alright?:D

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 05:30 PM
owkey since it are just uppinions if i like the saturn more then it has my games apparently,and psx more yours but one thing prerendered okay saturn doesnt do that as much as psx but the Duplo mode didnt scrae me away from saturn,i had no problems with the non digitized graphics of saturn,compared to psx it probably misses textures or something thats what the miroring on the car is in GT what a saturn cant handle,im not a big sony fan nintendo and sega first cause theyve made theyre own games owning while sony had ways more 3 party support and didnt make much games themselves for psx.I think i gave sony the blame of the failing Dreamcast and for never knowing the saturn,and the saturn with screen was earlier wasnt it? so i give sony the balme of stealign and doing it aggaint with Trust mode i ps3 controller,but heck it are just games and if streets of rage was on sony i liked sony for it;b i like guitar hero and stuff on sony,but i negleckted the 32 bit era so i love my megadrive more then psx ann dreamcast also.I can agree with you but i dont cause i just like saturn more so i aint automaticly gonna say psx hells yeah.I had great times with tekken 3 and soul blade is also good but i have never played ive got soul calibur:b.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 05:39 PM
Saturn was one year older and stil i like grandia or shining force 3 for having 3d camera angles instead of one digitized photo. could saturn Run Capcom snk better then PsX 2d ehy but it has transparacies allot?.Transparacies idd a very simple question that satur didnt answer god damn even snes could do it flawless,even megadrive could do it neo geo couldnt.I think every consoles has its ups or downs even the great Neo geo Aes back then couldnt fix the stuff snes and megadive put up somethimes,But Saturn having no transparacies is the same crap as eternal champions cd having 256 colors(you havent sead that 108 Btw but stil)My intention wasnt to be youre worst enemy i was trying to prove my standpoint my uppinion about saturn and why and i think the big diffrence was that you like pre rendered and i dont thats why i find a saturn look better but no saturn couldnt do Gt2 but can dop better 2D their equal technically and softwarematic that up to you,depends on what games you like.

Henry Spencer
08-19-2006, 07:26 PM
I like even the graphics better on Saturn and Playstation. I prefer pixelation from that 3-wishy-washy-textures-on-screen-with-white-fog-five-feet-ahead-N64-graphics.
And though many of the N64 games were really good, there were way too few games at all. I prefer having a big selection to choose from.

Quality not quantity. ;)
That is the reason I chose the N64, the most classic games, yet the least amount of selection.
I did have a hard time choosing though, cos I have NiGHTS on Saturn which is one of Sega's greatest achievements ever and PS1's masterpiece Metal Gear Solid. So I was a bit stuck really, then I remember the amounts of hours I would spend on some of the most enjoyable games ever created, Super Mario 64, Legend Of Zelda OoT and MM, Donkey Kong 64, Mischief Makers, Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon 1 and 2, Paper Mario, Yoshi's Story, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, the list goes on and on. It was classic gaming. That is why I have chosen the Nintendo 64 as it is by far, Nintendo's finest hour and they will never (although they will try), never beat that triumph again.
Bravo Nintendo. :notworthy:

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 07:49 PM
i have to admit that zelda was a remarkable looking game on n64 what wishy washy what white for ive seen none of these problems,many n64 games just have the good 64 bit look and a psx never looks beter Yeah right james bond Die another day vs Goldeneye and run n64 trough emulator and youlle have no problems of unclear graphics.BTW i have to admit the textures where bit crap on n64,whil psx had glance on the cars in gt2 etc.zelda oot satys one of my ol time faforites FF couldnt do that genius stuff BTW i hate ff i dont like to stick with a battle system and a random counter system,i hate the wood saw RP,g a bit like first you then the oter what origenal about that and the wanker story of ff7 with the tear buster ah please ff10 the characters looked ultimate gays there.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 08:17 PM
okay here for the comparisment tekken 3 vs Fighters megamix no means by it i love em both

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 08:19 PM
second Damn you 108 youre right :b

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 08:27 PM
Lol antoher comparisment.
Right saturn left psx.

16bitter
08-19-2006, 08:31 PM
Quality not quantity. ;)
That is the reason I chose the N64, the most classic games, yet the least amount of selection.
I did have a hard time choosing though, cos I have NiGHTS on Saturn which is one of Sega's greatest achievements ever and PS1's masterpiece Metal Gear Solid. So I was a bit stuck really, then I remember the amounts of hours I would spend on some of the most enjoyable games ever created, Super Mario 64, Legend Of Zelda OoT and MM, Donkey Kong 64,

Donkey Kong 64 was shit.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 08:33 PM
and another:Both great pictures Bahamut or something lookes pixelated but very detailed in comparisment and saturn does great job by presenting PD saga in this screen.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 09:07 PM
Just gottoo love sega 16 for this.
Mr bones atleast had a guitar which lookes cooler then medie evel.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 09:12 PM
okay n64 may suck but not graphic wise see this a psx cant do that(the game sucks BTW)BTW youre right about the transparacies shame on you saturn,even astro boy on gba shows transparancies,yes man transpanacies should at least be an option for 32 bit consoles with easy truly thats one bit minor-.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 09:16 PM
Donkey Kong 64 was shit.

Ohh hell no DK64 was kindo shit yes it was boring,Maybe even Final Fight revenge is better www.youtube.com/Finalfightrevenge.Ba Bank and the cop car Yuck.

ary incorparated
08-19-2006, 11:23 PM
Now weīve got the point: Youīre an arcade fan and I am not. I like Beatém ups once in a while, but RPGs and Action-Adventures are much more important to me.
But I donīt think Medievil was overrared, I liked it very much.
Sonic Adventure impressed me with itīs graphics, but I think it was all show but no gameplay. You just keep running and running, enjoying the graphics but thereīs not much to do. And the second player has problems because Tails is slower.
Iīve played Crazy Taxi, but after half an hour I got bored, itīs arcade style again, and I donīt like that. I like more complex games.

But still I admit that the Saturn is a good console, and the 3D graphics are close to the PSX with superior 2D graphics and sound. But I had the feeling that you were just bashing the PSX unfair, so I had to defend it because itīs my favourite console besides the Mega Drive. The biggest problem of the PSX is that it goes defective easily. Iīve had three PlayStations, and even the third one is not working properly anymore.
But Ary, thatīs what forums are for, discussions. If we all had the same opinion it would be a boring forum. So letīs make peace, alright.

I couldnt agree more almost Sonic adventure i more about the show then the anventure thats a bit trough but that game was far way from bad, i cant controle night its to difficult for me but i like to see it in action.im now playing god of war actually i love seing blood flow mwuahahaha,its still bitsy slow,im suprised to see what the old ps2 still can pull of damn DMc3 and more,also the diffrence between saturn and psx is also a few inches im surprised to see soem dc games still try the ps2 flow like ikaruga and some others,I love saturn and Dc equally and i like Super runabout for DC just bought it for 3 euros.

108 Stars
08-20-2006, 06:49 AM
Iīve never played Mr Bones. Looks cool.


FF couldnt do that genius stuff BTW i hate ff i dont like to stick with a battle system and a random counter system,i hate the wood saw RP,g a bit like first you then the oter what origenal about that and the wanker story of ff7 with the tear buster ah please ff10 the characters looked ultimate gays there.

...I love FF VII, and FF X is my favourite game of all times...:cry: :cry: :Panda: :Panda:

ary incorparated
08-20-2006, 07:35 AM
Lol have you seen the movie damn that movie looked good,only i really think theve used womne faces for some guys but im overreaction its not that bad,i dont like the system behind those games BTW best looking FF game on psx FF9 maybe even the best looking game on psx or ff8 hard to decide.FF7 remake is going to beod but not 600 euros good.Look at the Too blue eyes of the dude in KH i tought it was sora or something.you can see that he has the eyes of a women and much too wide pance,at least hes a a pretty boy sam as yes you must know the 2 gays Modern Talking that kind of want to be pretty,but ehy their just game character i dont have to shuf it of on those there just digitized and can do nothing in real live,Kingdom hearts was a great game with a great plot im not denieing that.

108 Stars
08-20-2006, 11:15 AM
Lol have you seen the movie damn that movie looked good,only i really think theve used womne faces for some guys but im overreaction its not that bad,i dont like the system behind those games BTW best looking FF game on psx FF9 maybe even the best looking game on psx or ff8 hard to decide.FF7 remake is going to beod but not 600 euros good.Look at the Too blue eyes you can see that he has the eyes of a women and much too wide pance,at least hes a a pretty boy sam as yes you must know the 2 gays Modern Talking that kind of want to be pretty,but ehy their just game character i dont have to shuf it of on those there just digitized and can do nothing in real live,Kingdom hearts was a great game with a great plot im not denieing that.

Thatīs the japanese sense of beauty I guess. They like feminine looking men there. Many manga and anime figures look so too.

ary incorparated
08-20-2006, 11:53 AM
Thats true,but that is why you can make fun of those japanese Lol.

Henry Spencer
08-20-2006, 04:28 PM
It strikes me as funny as the DC's greatest achievement has not yet been mentioned: Shenmue, Sega's most expensive game ever and the world record holder as the most expensive game ever made!
That's my favourite game of all time.

Henry Spencer
08-20-2006, 04:33 PM
Donkey Kong 64 was shit.

How nitpicky and opinionated. I loved it.

ary incorparated
08-20-2006, 06:45 PM
it was okay i hated it to but if you like it enjoy it more people do for me this is the best game for n64 see pic
Isnt shenmue a 128 bit game and isnt this a 32/64 bit toppic? elese i surely would have mentioned it,it is one of the top five games of all times or maybe the best, it is for me.

16bitter
08-20-2006, 10:11 PM
How nitpicky and opinionated. I loved it.

How is that any less "nitpicky and opinionated" than hating it?

Welcome to the world of subjectivity -- one man's treasure is another man's Donkey Kong 64, AKA garbage.

Careful where you step, as it appears you have trouble identifying day old dog shit. Then again, there are some people that literally get gratification from shit.

Which I suppose explains your love for DK64.

ary incorparated
08-21-2006, 07:57 AM
I hate the game actually,i think same way about it,its slow has a really crap music intro,and has some really lame apes,its as boring as looking to gorillaz the entire day.

16-bit
08-25-2006, 06:15 PM
I would pick the satrun, just because I never got a chance to play it. Man, I've wanted to play NiGHTS into Dreams for the longest time.

gamegenie
05-08-2009, 02:46 PM
The 32-bit era was great. But I'm going with the PSX here. Saturn was few games, it was expensive and it what I didn't like about it that it was incapable of playing Genesis games with it's dummy cartridge port. Sega never thought outside the box like Sony did.

TheEdge
05-08-2009, 02:59 PM
I never had any of these consoles but from what I reseached I would chose the Saturn. Not just because of loyalty to Sega but because it was a more entertaining platform.

and because Segata demands it!

Segatatatata SHIRO!

TmEE
05-08-2009, 03:01 PM
that's a major bump here :D

Saturn for me, no competition... Saturn the most awesome games of the 3

jerry coeurl
05-08-2009, 03:15 PM
Saturn for sure. The best 2d titles + Sega exclusives make it a no brainer (for me, anyway).

AD2101
05-08-2009, 04:30 PM
Back in the day the only system I never got to play with was the Saturn, a friend down the street had a Playstation, which all we did was either play Need for Speed or put cd's in and watch the visual player (stupid huh?). The N64 my bro had and we played that a lot, but that generation just didn't have the same charm the 16 bit one had for me.

Today though, after purchasing a Saturn and experiencing all of the consoles, its the Saturn hands down. I use mine almost exclusively for the SHMUPS on the system but it's great at what it does.

jerry coeurl
05-08-2009, 04:37 PM
Saturn for sure. The best 2d titles + Sega exclusives make it a no brainer (for me, anyway).

forgot to add it is also in possession of the best controller that has ever graced my hands

chinitosoccer
05-08-2009, 05:17 PM
Saturn has problems with transparencies (the lack thereof

Saturn can do transparencies, there are transparencies in some of the Radiant Silvergun's backgrounds.

j_factor
05-09-2009, 01:11 AM
Saturn can do transparencies, there are transparencies in some of the Radiant Silvergun's backgrounds.

Saturn can do transparencies, but it's apparently more difficult. And I posted that two and a half years ago, gimme a break. :p

Black_Tiger
05-09-2009, 01:33 AM
For me this is extremely simple. Saturn. Granted the PS had waaaay more games, but I modded my Saturn to play imports, and once I did that man oh man did the good games flow. The thing was just so damn fun. I loved the controller (Japanese one whch later came to the US). I hated (and still do) the Playstation controller. The Saturn just seemed sleeker. The 3D capabilities of both systems sucked ass, so that wasn't a deciding factor for me. I didn't like how the PS's 3D textures were all skewed (they couldn't draw a straight line to save their lives). As for the N64, I loved Super Mario 64, Waverace 64, and a few other games. The N64's foggy graphics actually made me go diahrrea, so I didn't play it that often. The Saturn looked incredible in S-video.

Yeah. Saturn.

This is exactly my experience, except that I never got into Waverace. :p

kool kitty89
05-09-2009, 04:30 AM
gamegenie, you do realize the price thing is overephesized due to the initial high price of the early realease, and Sony's subsequent compeditive pricing.

By the time of the N64's release, I think the Saturn was cheaper than Nintendo's $199.

Though pricing is one thing and hardware cost is a bit different, from that standpoint I think it's true that the Saturn was less cost efficient than Sega's system could have been.
Nintendo certainly cut some costs on the console by lacking a disc drive, though considering the cartridge costs, thais didn't really offer the consumer that much better of a deal. (inless they only had a handfull of games)


I grew up a Nintendo guy kind of by default along with PC games, we had an NES and eventually got an SNES around the time the N64 was launching. The fact it was most popular with my friends and Nintendo's kid friendly nature shurely added to it. (I had a couple freinds with Genesis consoles, but in both cases they were in addition to Nintendo, and one of these 2 friends was the first I knew to have an N64)

I'm perfectly happy with my N64, I knew some with playstations, though didn't really prefer it, the Saturn did seem a bit more intriguing for whatever reason...
Of the 20 odd N64 gmes we've got many are very good, and even the worst are average, and that's lacking many of the "greats" like a lot of Rare's stuff (Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Banjo Kazooie, Conker, and a few others) SSB was definitely the winning game for me though, we'd rented the console several times up to 1999 and that christmas we finally got one, though I was dissapointed to find we had only Mario 64 rather than SSB, which we got fairly soon anyway. Star Fox (though I now prefer the original) and the previous 2 games were the main ones of interest. Though we'd played Shadows of the Empire a bit, and Goldeneye was just amazing to me at my friend's.

I do wonder how many possibilities were missed by sticking with such a limiting media (both in terms of attracting developers and technical limitations) on the N64. I understand some of the reasoning, but they certainly could have come up witha propritary disc format, partiularly given the extra time with the late release.


One thing I do like in particular with the N64 is the stock 4x controller ports and many games supporting 4 player. (Star Fox, Goldeneye, SSB all wouldn't have been the same at all otherwise)

Black_Tiger
05-09-2009, 02:08 PM
The 32-bit era was great. But I'm going with the PSX here. Saturn was few games, it was expensive and it what I didn't like about it that it was incapable of playing Genesis games with it's dummy cartridge port. Sega never thought outside the box like Sony did.

Just because you are unaware of the numerous great Saturn games, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. The PSX and N64 neither played Genesis games, nor any other previous generation's games.

I'm not sure how Sony "thought outside of the box", especially considering how they controlled their software lineup to reduce variety, the PSX lacked internal backup ram, didn't have a modem or "online" games, was the only console of the generation not to release a ram upgrade when it needed it the most, released analog control last and didn't include any kind of basic 2D support, just in case the whole 3D thing didn't become as popular as it did (yet 2D is still essential today).

Sony only seemed to "think outside the box" when it came to gouging customers and working over publishers.

Chilly Willy
05-09-2009, 03:40 PM
I'm not sure how Sony "thought outside of the box", especially considering how they controlled their software lineup to reduce variety,

In what way? Sony's success with the PSX was mainly due to their broad support by third parties. Reduced variety described the Saturn, whose headman pledged to not import popular games, not the PSX. :p


the PSX lacked internal backup ram,

Instead, it had small cards that stored far more than any internal backup ram ever. The cards allowed you to take your save games anywhere, like your friend's house.



didn't have a modem or "online" games,

It was too early for online games. It would not be until the advent of DSL and cable modems that online gained ANY popularity. That period was toward the end of the PS2 (much less the PSX), and Sony did release a modem/ethernet adapter for online gaming. I don't know a single person that played online before about 2002 or 2003, even on the PC.



was the only console of the generation not to release a ram upgrade when it needed it the most,

The only console with a successful ram upgrade was the N64, and even that was fairly low by comparison to the total base. Saturn never released theirs in the US, and hence it was never used.



released analog control last

But did it right. Even MS based their controller off the Sony dual analog (they just took Sony's controller and switched the left dpad and stick positions).



and didn't include any kind of basic 2D support, just in case the whole 3D thing didn't become as popular as it did (yet 2D is still essential today).

It had the ability to render sprites. What limited the PSX for 2D was the memory, not the GPU.

gamegenie
05-09-2009, 03:56 PM
Just because you are unaware of the numerous great Saturn games, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. The PSX and N64 neither played Genesis games, nor any other previous generation's games.

I'm not sure how Sony "thought outside of the box", especially considering how they controlled their software lineup to reduce variety, the PSX lacked internal backup ram, didn't have a modem or "online" games, was the only console of the generation not to release a ram upgrade when it needed it the most, released analog control last and didn't include any kind of basic 2D support, just in case the whole 3D thing didn't become as popular as it did (yet 2D is still essential today).

Sony only seemed to "think outside the box" when it came to gouging customers and working over publishers.

I saw what Saturn had e.g. Panzer Dragoon or Nights, those games had very little appeal to me, okay maybe Nights did for a little bit.

with in regards to thinking outside of the box.

PS2 does play PS1 games, and PS3 can play PS2 games and PS1 games.


SONY did what SEGADIDN'T provide backward compatibility and continued support for their older consoles, while Sega would just kill off a current system and launch a new system.

Black_Tiger
05-09-2009, 04:21 PM
I saw what Saturn had e.g. Panzer Dragoon or Nights, those games had very little appeal to me, okay maybe Nights did for a little bit.

with in regards to thinking outside of the box.

PS2 does play PS1 games, and PS3 can play PS2 games and PS1 games.


SONY did what SEGADIDN'T provide backward compatibility and continued support for their older consoles, while Sega would just kill off a current system and launch a new system.

Once again, you're revealing just how unfamiliar you are with a console, citing a couple high profile American releases that in no way reflect the console as a whole, other than being considered original(or "outside the box").

The PS2 and PS3 are machines from the future. Why don't you tell us how much the PS9 pwns the Saturn? The Mark III plays SG-1000 games and the Mega Drive plays Mark III games (hell, the 32X plays Genesis games). That's at least two backwards compatible Sega consoles, both of which predate the first Sony console, so if anything Sony took a Sega idea instead of "thinking outside the box" when it comes to backwards compatibility.

Another 'outside the box' innovation by Sega for the Saturn is the mpeg card that not only plays vcds, but is also supported by games. Also, releasing a broken d-pad with SNES style button layout during the street fighting craze is a major step backwards, while the japanese/Saturn 2 pad is still considered the best non-analog pad to date.

You may prefer the Playstation and the games you're familiar with, but you're arguments against the Saturn/for the PSX are all wrong.

nissling
05-09-2009, 04:35 PM
This is a really hard question to me, Playstation or Saturn. I like them both.

When I think of Saturn, I think of Resident Evil for some random reason (I think it's becuse it's the Saturn-game I play for most time). Sure that the Playstation got Resident Evil 2 and 3 which are two great games too, but the Saturn got an awesome port of the first game I think.

But if I have to choose, I'm going to choose Playstation just becuse of Metal Gear Solid. There really isn't anything bad about that game and I've never heard any complains about it either. Btw, Metal Gear Solid for the Saturn would have been a great port I think.

Black_Tiger
05-09-2009, 04:42 PM
In what way? Sony's success with the PSX was mainly due to their broad support by third parties. Reduced variety described the Saturn, whose headman pledged to not import popular games, not the PSX. :p

Again, this is making money not "thinking outside the box". Third parties had to release set types of games and 2D was strongly discouraged. American releases are simply that, their existence doesn't negate the worldwide library.



Instead, it had small cards that stored far more than any internal backup ram ever. The cards allowed you to take your save games anywhere, like your friend's house.

The Saturn has both.



It was too early for online games. It would not be until the advent of DSL and cable modems that online gained ANY popularity. That period was toward the end of the PS2 (much less the PSX), and Sony did release a modem/ethernet adapter for online gaming. I don't know a single person that played online before about 2002 or 2003, even on the PC.

So in other words, instead of doing what everyone else was, Sega was "thinking outside the box"? ;)

My only internet experience for years was the Saturn Netlink and I played games over the phone line, so you now know of at least one person. :) There were also many people playing Dreamcast games online from 2000 onward.




The only console with a successful ram upgrade was the N64, and even that was fairly low by comparison to the total base. Saturn never released theirs in the US, and hence it was never used.

The U.S. isn't the center of the universe. I bought a Saturn import cart at EB early on in the Saturn's life and later got an import mod. I picked up X-Men VS Street Fighter as soon as it came out.

No one is going to deny that the Playstation was the most successful commercially in America, but that's not what we're talking about.



But did it right. Even MS based their controller off the Sony dual analog (they just took Sony's controller and switched the left dpad and stick positions).

Sony was still just doing what Microsoft did, evolving someone else's innovation. Again, I only mentioned this against the "thinking outside the box" statement.



It had the ability to render sprites. What limited the PSX for 2D was the memory, not the GPU.

I'm just saying that it's limited 2D wasn't very revolutionary, while the Saturn was unbelievable for the time.

jesus.arnold
05-09-2009, 04:50 PM
PS1 and N64 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Saturn

Worst Sega console ever :p

Black_Tiger
05-09-2009, 05:03 PM
PS1 and N64 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Saturn

Worst Sega console ever :p

I didn't realize that you were such a big SG-1000 fan. ;)

jesus.arnold
05-09-2009, 05:10 PM
The Saturn, worst Sega console-that-was-released-in-the-west ever

nissling
05-09-2009, 05:12 PM
What makes the Saturn worse then the Master System?

jesus.arnold
05-09-2009, 05:16 PM
What makes the Saturn worse then the Master System?The absence of Wonder Boy :D

kool kitty89
05-09-2009, 05:37 PM
The Saturn has both.


No, saturn has a bulky memory cart that's similar to the Sega CD's except it holds more.

gamegenie
05-09-2009, 06:05 PM
The PS2 and PS3 are machines from the future. Why don't you tell us how much the PS9 pwns the Saturn? The Mark III plays SG-1000 games and the Mega Drive plays Mark III games (hell, the 32X plays Genesis games). That's at least two backwards compatible Sega consoles, both of which predate the first Sony console, so if anything Sony took a Sega idea instead of "thinking outside the box" when it comes to backwards compatibility.

Another 'outside the box' innovation by Sega for the Saturn is the mpeg card that not only plays vcds, but is also supported by games. Also, releasing a broken d-pad with SNES style button layout during the street fighting craze is a major step backwards, while the japanese/Saturn 2 pad is still considered the best non-analog pad to date.

You may prefer the Playstation and the games you're familiar with, but you're arguments against the Saturn/for the PSX are all wrong.

No duh, of course PS2 and PS3 came out after Saturn it doesn't change the point that Sega could have implemented backward compatibility with Saturn since they already had a previous generation CD system. You even see it yourself noting the Genesis capablilities of playing SMS games, so don't give me that PS9 bullshit talk, or that these ideas were impossible when even Atari was doing this with the 7800, and Coleco.

I don't see how a MPEG add-on is innovative, the PSX has the same accessory add-on, and the Saturn controller is nothing new, you're forgetting the Genesis had the 6-button controller first. :roll:

Tears of Ash
05-09-2009, 06:13 PM
Another 'outside the box' innovation by Sega for the Saturn is the mpeg card that not only plays vcds, but is also supported by games.


3DO says hi. (well, for the first thing)

Chilly Willy
05-09-2009, 06:40 PM
Another 'outside the box' innovation by Sega for the Saturn is the mpeg card that not only plays vcds, but is also supported by games.

3DO says hi. (well, for the first thing)

So does the CD32. ;)

kool kitty89
05-09-2009, 06:45 PM
So does the CD32. ;)

Didn't the CD-i do that first? (albeit with an expansion card) Though I guess you could dispute whether the CD-i was really a VG console...

jesus.arnold
05-09-2009, 07:01 PM
Thinking about it the Saturn doesn't really even feel like a Sega console to me at all, Sega consoles usually have stacks of easily identifiable 1st party classics, whereas the Saturn's best games were mostly 3rd party shmups and fighting games, that coupled with the lack of games including an easily identified Sega mascot (no proper Sonic Games, no Alex Kidd or Wonder Boy games) leads me to think of the Saturn as more of a faceless arcade port machine :(

Chilly Willy
05-09-2009, 08:49 PM
Didn't the CD-i do that first? (albeit with an expansion card) Though I guess you could dispute whether the CD-i was really a VG console...

You're right, it did. That's what they were known for most. I've still got a couple CD-i movies. They're plain MPG1 AV on a custom format filesystem CD. It had a selection of games as well, but they pushed it more on it's multimedia capabilities than anything else from what I remember.

RowdyRodimus
05-09-2009, 09:01 PM
While I loved the Saturn and had a few games I really cared for on the PSX, I have to go with the N64 for the wrestling library.

kool kitty89
05-09-2009, 09:58 PM
The Saturn, worst Sega console-that-was-released-in-the-west ever

On a different note, it's pretty interesting how the Jaguar failed for similar reasons as the Saturn (except far worse), rushed flawed and incomplete, complex and difficult to program for, lack of dev kits exacerbating this, and finally the marketing. (which granted did have a couple good spots, but not nearly enough) Though the initial pricing was more compeditive.

Black_Tiger
05-09-2009, 10:52 PM
The Saturn, worst Sega console-that-was-released-in-the-west ever

Considering how great every Sega console released in the west is, that's a nice compliment. ;)



No, saturn has a bulky memory cart that's similar to the Sega CD's except it holds more.

Do you think that Genesis carts are bulky? The Saturn carts hold way more than PSX cards and PSX games are ruined by long save/load times while Saturn games are near-instant. It really was a step backwards after the Sega-CD and PCE/Turbo-CD.



No duh, of course PS2 and PS3 came out after Saturn it doesn't change the point that Sega could have implemented backward compatibility with Saturn since they already had a previous generation CD system. You even see it yourself noting the Genesis capablilities of playing SMS games, so don't give me that PS9 bullshit talk, or that these ideas were impossible when even Atari was doing this with the 7800, and Coleco.

How does the Saturn's lack of backwards compatibility make it worse than the Playstation? You bumped a 3 year dead thread to cite the lack of backwards compatibility and "thinking outside the box" as a weakness against the PSX, following it up with a post explaining that an example of "thinking outside the box" is the backwards compatibility of consoles from the generations that would later follow. If you've got a grudge against Sega that's fine, but you're really stretching in posts all over the forums to smear them.



I don't see how a MPEG add-on is innovative, the PSX has the same accessory add-on, and the Saturn controller is nothing new, you're forgetting the Genesis had the 6-button controller first. :roll:

It's just one more thing that the Saturn did that the PSX didn't. The PSX has external (is that what you meant by "outside teh box"?) accessories that allow it to play VCDs, that's it. The Saturn has games that support mpeg video. The Genesis 6-button pad is great and that's exactly my point, the PSX pads were worse.



3DO says hi. (well, for the first thing)

Does the 3DO have real games that support mpeg video?



Thinking about it the Saturn doesn't really even feel like a Sega console to me at all, Sega consoles usually have stacks of easily identifiable 1st party classics, whereas the Saturn's best games were mostly 3rd party shmups and fighting games, that coupled with the lack of games including an easily identified Sega mascot (no proper Sonic Games, no Alex Kidd or Wonder Boy games) leads me to think of the Saturn as more of a faceless arcade port machine :(

The Saturn probably has as many easily identifiable 1st party classics any other Sega console, except maybe the Genesis. I don't know how many Saturn games you've played or seen, but there's a lot more than shooters and fighting games, not that that would've been a bad thing. Many people think that the Genesis is strongest/best known for shmups.

As for lack of games, I don't know if you're limiting yourself to U.S. titles again, since you mentioned shmups and fighting games which were only heavy in Japan, but the Saturn has a huge library of great games. No Sega console other than the Genesis had an easily identifiable mascot. The Genesis was hailed at the time and to this day as an "arcade port machine".

If you just hate the Saturn, then so be it. But it's a cool console with a ton of great games.

Puffy2k316
05-09-2009, 11:19 PM
The Saturn is the best to play now, the psx was the best then, and the n64 has and always will be terrible.

kool kitty89
05-10-2009, 12:00 AM
No the carts aren't that bulky, but they're more difficult to carry arround in your pocket than a card. Though they are kind of lucky to have the Genesis cats so compact and sleek in the first place.

gamegenie
05-10-2009, 12:11 AM
It's just one more thing that the Saturn did that the PSX didn't. The PSX has external (is that what you meant by "outside teh box"?) accessories that allow it to play VCDs, that's it. The Saturn has games that support mpeg video. The Genesis 6-button pad is great and that's exactly my point, the PSX pads were worse.

First of all you don't know what you are talking about in regards to the PSX. The PlayStation didn't need to use MPEG for it's games for video playback, it has it's own on chip video decoding MJEPG and H.261. The Saturn doesn't have any native hardware video decompression which is why it needs a MPEG decoder.

I never said the Genesis 6-button pads were bad. For the games the PlayStation have it does not need the Sega 6-button pad.

Tears of Ash
05-10-2009, 01:09 AM
Does the 3DO have real games that support mpeg video?





Are things in parenthesis invisible on your screen?

j_factor
05-10-2009, 01:13 AM
Let's back up a sec...


It was too early for online games. It would not be until the advent of DSL and cable modems that online gained ANY popularity. That period was toward the end of the PS2 (much less the PSX), and Sony did release a modem/ethernet adapter for online gaming. I don't know a single person that played online before about 2002 or 2003, even on the PC.

Seriously? You ever hear of Counterstrike? Quake II? EverQuest? NFL 2K1? PSO?

Chilly Willy
05-10-2009, 02:45 AM
Seriously? You ever hear of Counterstrike? Quake II? EverQuest? NFL 2K1? PSO?

Sure, even own some of them, but no one I knew played them online... or did and very quickly quit with the suggestion that no one bother. Dial-up made online gaming a chore no one really cared for without being some kind of freak completely addicted to gaming. I doubt that there were that many people playing them online across the entire country. Like I said, online gaming is virtually always tied to access to broadband. So I guess if you lived in a BIG city with access to broadband, it may have been more prevalent. Why do you think modern consoles don't include modems? Because trying to play on dial-up is an exercise in futility.

Iron Lizard
05-10-2009, 03:03 AM
Ehhh EverQuest was annoyingly popular with my buds. They always played on line. I got so tired of them playing it all the freaking time.

gamevet
05-10-2009, 03:34 AM
The Saturn probably has as many easily identifiable 1st party classics any other Sega console, except maybe the Genesis. I don't know how many Saturn games you've played or seen, but there's a lot more than shooters and fighting games, not that that would've been a bad thing. Many people think that the Genesis is strongest/best known for shmups.

Excluding the Sonic series, I enjoyed the 1st party titles on the Saturn, over that of the Genesis.

Here's a good portion of those titles:

Virtual-On
Virtua Fighter
Virtua Fighter 2
Virtua Fighter Remix
Virtua Racing
Virtua Fighter Kids
Dark Savior
Shining: The Holy Ark
Wing Arms
House of the Dead
Virtua Cop
Virtua Cop 2
Manx TT
Daytona USA
Sega Rally
World Wide Soccer
World Series Baseball
Shining Wisdom
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon 2
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Shining Force 3
Nights
Mystaria/Riglord Saga
Decathlete
Astal
Burning Rangers (one of my favorites)
Sega Touring Car Championships
Bug
Bug 2
Clockwork Knight
Winter Heat
Hang-On GP
Baku Baku Animal




As for lack of games, I don't know if you're limiting yourself to U.S. titles again, since you mentioned shmups and fighting games which were only heavy in Japan, but the Saturn has a huge library of great games. No Sega console other than the Genesis had an easily identifiable mascot. The Genesis was hailed at the time and to this day as an "arcade port machine".


The North American 3rd party support wasn't great, but it had a solid lineup as well.

Gun Griffon
Albert Odyssey
Last Gladiators (Much better than Alien Crush or Devil's Crush)
Ultimate MK3
Soviet Strike
Tempest 2000
Pebble Beach Golf
Iron Storm
Dragon Force
Marvel Super Heroes
X-Men: Children of the Atom
Dark Stalkers: The Night Warriors
Enemy Zero
Megaman 8
Galactic Attack (Layer Section)
Magic Knight Rayearth (Beautiful 2D art)
Street Fighter Collection
Street Fighter Alpha
Darius Gaiden
Megaman X4
Warcraft 2 (mouse support)
Myst
Sim-City 2000
Maximum Force
Guardian Heroes
Scorcher
Amok
Tomb Raider
Resident Evil
Wipeout
NBA Jam
Earthworm Jim 2
College Slam
D
Die Hard Arcade
Doom
Duke Nukem 3D
The Legend of Oasis
Herc's Adventures
Powerslave
Thunderstrike 2

j_factor
05-10-2009, 04:08 AM
Sure, even own some of them, but no one I knew played them online... or did and very quickly quit with the suggestion that no one bother. Dial-up made online gaming a chore no one really cared for without being some kind of freak completely addicted to gaming. I doubt that there were that many people playing them online across the entire country. Like I said, online gaming is virtually always tied to access to broadband. So I guess if you lived in a BIG city with access to broadband, it may have been more prevalent. Why do you think modern consoles don't include modems? Because trying to play on dial-up is an exercise in futility.

Broadband sure made things a lot better, but earlier games that had online gameplay designed with dial-up in mind were usually not that bad. Lots of people played games online over dial-up, or sometimes, over dial-up networking (popular for Civ II at least). Particularly, the games I mentioned. Team Fortress was another.

kool kitty89
05-10-2009, 04:35 AM
Unreal Tournament was released a bit later, but that's still a couple years before the timeline stated.

jesus.arnold
05-10-2009, 12:40 PM
The Saturn probably has as many easily identifiable 1st party classics any other Sega console.No it doesn't at all, it's laughable even compared to the Master System, the only popular 1st party games it pretty much had were Virtual Fighter series, Sega Rally, Nights and a few gun games, apart from that it had the usual niche RPG titles like the Shining games, just look at Gamevet's list, it's padded out with multiple games of the same series' and sports titles and apart from Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally none of them had anywhere near as much of an impact as tons of Mega Drive games, or even Dreamcast games for that matter, not to mention that the original Virtua Fighter and Daytona on the Saturn were both shoddy rushed ports which did more harm to the Saturn early on than anything else.

Even Treasure were completely out of form during the Saturn days, giving only Radiant Silvergun as their stand-out title (which wasn't even released outside Japan) an alright Guardian Heroes and the multi-format game Astal, and to add insult to injury even their N64 output was far superior

Also, while i'm venting Shinobi Legions is a complete insult to the Shinobi name.


except maybe the Genesis. I don't know how many Saturn games you've played or seen, but there's a lot more than shooters and fighting games, not that that would've been a bad thing. Many people think that the Genesis is strongest/best known for shmups.Saturn Shmups are amazing, but MD ones are still extremely good and are usually far cheaper which is why I tend to neglect my Saturn in that aspect too, the fighting games however were unparalleled but I really don't see the average gamer needing to own more than 3 2D fighting games anyway tbh.

jerry coeurl
05-10-2009, 05:31 PM
Even Treasure were completely out of form during the Saturn days, giving only Radiant Silvergun as their stand-out title (which wasn't even released outside Japan) an alright Guardian Heroes and the multi-format game Astal, and to add insult to injury even their N64 output was far superior

First of all, Guardian Heroes owns. Second of all, Treasure had nothing to do with Astal, that is a first-party game.


Also, while i'm venting Shinobi Legions is a complete insult to the Shinobi name.

Fuck that noise. Shinobi Legions fucking owns, as does the Saturn. I could give a shit if the games had less "impact than tons of MD games," (whatever the hell that means); All of the games listed on Gamevet's list are at least solid and at most excellent. Why you hatin'.

h00n
05-10-2009, 08:08 PM
I want to own a saturn.
I have been through 4 ps1's and never bought one of them. people just give / throw them away.
I got a dreamcast though. That thing is pretty nice and was i think well worth it.
Only one guy i know had a saturn and he gave it away to a disabled kid that lived next door to him,
That kid better be enjoying it....

Black_Tiger
05-10-2009, 09:30 PM
Are things in parenthesis invisible on your screen?

I actually misread my own quote (reading off of a TV). :p



Sure, even own some of them, but no one I knew played them online... or did and very quickly quit with the suggestion that no one bother. Dial-up made online gaming a chore no one really cared for without being some kind of freak completely addicted to gaming. I doubt that there were that many people playing them online across the entire country. Like I said, online gaming is virtually always tied to access to broadband. So I guess if you lived in a BIG city with access to broadband, it may have been more prevalent. Why do you think modern consoles don't include modems? Because trying to play on dial-up is an exercise in futility.

Even if something isn't commercially successful, it doesn't mean that it isn't fun or good. PSO was amazing as a lowly dial-up game. Even Duke Nukem 3D Saturn and Sega Rally NLE were a ton of fun.

I think that modern games stick to broadband because it's widely available technology and it's not fair to allow such a huge difference in connection speed. It's not like broadband was mandatory for consoles (Genesis, Dreamcast, etc) before it became widely available.

People can still play 360 (and PS3 & Wii?) games with dial-up through their PC, but adding modems to consoles drives up the manufacturing costs for something most people don't need anymore. Hell, the Wii doesn't even support broadband out of the box.

Weren't people playing Genesis games over the phone line with X-Band back in the day?



Even Treasure were completely out of form during the Saturn days, giving only Radiant Silvergun as their stand-out title (which wasn't even released outside Japan) an alright Guardian Heroes and the multi-format game Astal, and to add insult to injury even their N64 output was far superior

Don't forget about Silhouette Mirage. :) Treasure's been out of form ever since the Genesis days. It's not like they pump out a couple classics a year (excluding the Saturn's lifespan).



No it doesn't at all, it's laughable even compared to the Master System, the only popular 1st party games it pretty much had were Virtual Fighter series, Sega Rally, Nights and a few gun games, apart from that it had the usual niche RPG titles like the Shining games, just look at Gamevet's list, it's padded out with multiple games of the same series' and sports titles and apart from Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally none of them had anywhere near as much of an impact as tons of Mega Drive games, or even Dreamcast games for that matter, not to mention that the original Virtua Fighter and Daytona on the Saturn were both shoddy rushed ports which did more harm to the Saturn early on than anything else.

So you qualify "classics" as blockbusters? Since the Saturn wasn't a commercial success, then you're right, it is devoid of classics, first party or otherwise. It's still crazy to hear someone on a Genesis board dismiss Shining Force as a "niche RPG title" and not a classic. :p But how do you use the same rational to justify the Master System as having any classics or games that had any impact?

Would you exclude all but one Sonic game from a list of Genesis classics, because they're multiple titles from the same series?

Wesker
05-10-2009, 10:10 PM
PS1 and N64 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Saturn

Worst Sega console ever :p


I didn't realize that you were such a big SG-1000 fan. ;)


The Saturn, worst Sega console-that-was-released-in-the-west ever

Something tells me someone isn't aware that the SG-1000 was actually released in the west (in Europe at least)

j_factor
05-10-2009, 10:53 PM
A clone console capable of playing SG-1000 games was released in the US, too. But not the real deal.

Tears of Ash
05-11-2009, 12:07 AM
I actually misread my own quote (reading off of a TV). :p


Hahaha! XD

otaku
05-11-2009, 02:01 AM
Now I would say the saturn (imports!) but for the time I was an N64 gamer part of this was I only occasionally was exposed to sega (older cousin I rarely saw had all the sega gear back in the day) but my first game I ever played was mario on snes so n64 was the first console I owned and played a great deal during that time. n64 for me

jesus.arnold
05-11-2009, 11:03 AM
I would personally say that Gamevet's list is pretty representative of US Saturn releases, and look at it, do you guys see Bug and Bug 2 competing well with their peers on other platformers? do they put Mario 64, Banjo Kazooie, Rayman 2 and Conker on the N64 to shame? how about Ape Escape and Crash Bandicoot 3 on the PS1? that's like me trying to make out that Rakuga Kids on N64 is as good as Marvel Vs Street Fighter on Saturn.

Anyway I've decided it would be ignorant of me to carry on this argument as there are still a handful of very expensive Saturn games I have yet to play which could well change my opinion of the system's library anyway.


It's still crazy to hear someone on a Genesis board dismiss Shining Force as a "niche RPG title" and not a classic. :p Judging from the Sega US guy deciding to stop bothering to translate RPG's (in the interest of "quality control" :lol: ) I would imagine that all those RPG's on the Saturn must have sold extremely poorly in the US and as such couldn't have even been that popular with mainstream Saturn owners of the time (as opposed to Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally) that's why I think their impact was probably minimal (I know it was minimal here in the UK as I lived through it)

Also many of those games are sequels to Mega Drive games, series' that will always be identified with the MD, and many of them (such as Dark Savior) are widely considered as being inferior to their predessesors.

I'm not saying they're not "classic" though, I think my original post was something like "easily identifiable classics" and stuff like the Shining games are more identified with the MD.


But how do you use the same rational to justify the Master System as having any classics or games that had any impact?You live in the US (well I take it you do cos' you keep saying Genesis) so that pretty much means you have no experience of the Master System anyway, you may well have owned one at the time, heck you may of even imported games for it, but due to the lack of good advertising and Nintendo's cast iron grip on the US you never would've experienced the true Master System "scene"

I can only speak for the UK I guess but here (at the time) Wonder Boy, Shinobi and Alex Kidd were more famous characters than virtually anything that came out on the Nintendo apart from the Mario series characters themselves, more famous than Samus, Mega Man, Simon Belmont, Ryu Hayabusa etc and on par with Link until that godawful cartoon started being shown on GMTV (or whatever the heck it was called back then)

I've spoken to many Americans who don't even know who Wonder Boy is?! a bunch of them will know "Adventure Island" even though it's actually just a renamed Wonder Boy with a sprite swap :(


Would you exclude all but one Sonic game from a list of Genesis classics, because they're multiple titles from the same series?If I was talking about the systems library as a whole then Yes, though tbh it's not particularly a fair comparison anyway, the 4 proper Sonic Games on the Mega Drive are all fairly different experiences to each other and many people would be happy to own all of them, the same can most definately not be said about Virtua Fighter, Virtua Fighter Remix, Virtua Fighter 2 and Virtua Fighter Kids.

j_factor
05-11-2009, 07:05 PM
Judging from the Sega US guy deciding to stop bothering to translate RPG's (in the interest of "quality control" :lol: ) I would imagine that all those RPG's on the Saturn must have sold extremely poorly in the US and as such couldn't have even been that popular with mainstream Saturn owners of the time (as opposed to Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally) that's why I think their impact was probably minimal (I know it was minimal here in the UK as I lived through it)

By that logic, Final Fantasy VII wasn't worth translating, because Beyond the Beyond, Suikoden, and King's Field weren't popular with US Playstation owners of the time, compared to WipEout and Crash Bandicoot.

Sales are irrelevant. Stolar had his mind made up with regards to his anti-RPG stance before he even joined Sega. As far as I can tell, only three RPGs were translated under his direction: Shining the Holy Ark, Shining Force III, and Panzer Dragoon Saga (Dark Savior was released after he took charge, but had already been set before he joined Sega). All three are sequels; the latter two were released when the system was practically dead (due to his own doing). Holy Ark didn't do amazing, but it did better than most Saturn games during that time; as for the other two... We'll never know how much they could have sold, as they were very under-produced. Panzer Dragoon Saga in particular couldn't even fill all of its preorders on release (and back then, preorders were less common). Two more small print runs were made, and every copy was sold very quickly. Same with Shining Force III -- they sold every last copy that they printed. PDS is known for being expensive now, but it was going for well over $100 used as early as 2000. I'm not saying that it would've been a million seller, but if things had been handled differently it certainly would've been a hit.

As for pre-Stolar and third-party RPGs? Arguably what would've been the most popular ones didn't come out here. Lunar was cancelled, thanks to him -- Lunar had been one of the top-selling Sega CD games, and the later Playstation release became WD's highest selling game ever. Grandia didn't get translated, despite a significant amount of hype even here. Sakura Wars, which is one of the top five biggest sellers for the Japanese Saturn, also failed to be translated. Mystaria did sell pretty decently, at least well enough for it to have a name change and have both versions be relatively common today.

genocide-superstar
05-11-2009, 07:20 PM
N64. Platforming heaven.

gamevet
05-12-2009, 06:53 PM
I would personally say that Gamevet's list is pretty representative of US Saturn releases, and look at it, do you guys see Bug and Bug 2 competing well with their peers on other platformers? do they put Mario 64, Banjo Kazooie, Rayman 2 and Conker on the N64 to shame? how about Ape Escape and Crash Bandicoot 3 on the PS1? that's like me trying to make out that Rakuga Kids on N64 is as good as Marvel Vs Street Fighter on Saturn.

Sure, pick out the crappiest games on the list. I never thought of Bug as a great platformer, but I was never impressed with Conker either. I'll play Burning Rangers over any of those games you've listed, though Mario 64 is the better game.

Virtua Cop and House of the Dead were the defineative gun games of that time, and Namco's Time Crisis and Vampire Night were complete rip-offs of those titles.

Sega's racing games were also the best of the bunch, though Wipeout and Waverace were just as solid. Gran Turismo was a pretty racer, with a ton of options, but the racing sucked. Ridge Racer was good looking but the series did nothing for me until R4 came out, near the end of the Playstation's rule.



Judging from the Sega US guy deciding to stop bothering to translate RPG's (in the interest of "quality control" :lol: ) I would imagine that all those RPG's on the Saturn must have sold extremely poorly in the US and as such couldn't have even been that popular with mainstream Saturn owners of the time (as opposed to Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally) that's why I think their impact was probably minimal (I know it was minimal here in the UK as I lived through it)

Most titles sold poorly on the Saturn here, because the userbase was so small. Sega Rally and Virtua Fighter 2 were packaged in with every Saturn (1996), so the numbers are a bit inflated on those. Most of the titles that sold to the more casual Saturn users were sports or Sega's arcade ports.

The legit Saturn owners (early adoptares) were buying Astal, Shining Wisdom, Shining: The Holy Ark and Dragon Force. Try buying Dragon Force on Ebay, where the price and demand is pretty high; Luckily I bought the game while the getting was good.






If I was talking about the systems library as a whole then Yes, though tbh it's not particularly a fair comparison anyway, the 4 proper Sonic Games on the Mega Drive are all fairly different experiences to each other and many people would be happy to own all of them, the same can most definately not be said about Virtua Fighter, Virtua Fighter Remix, Virtua Fighter 2 and Virtua Fighter Kids.

I'd say the replay value of all 4 versions of Virtua Fighter is pretty high. Virtua Fighter Kids is closer to Virtua Fighter 2 than it is the first game and Virtua Fighter Remix is the version of Virtua Fighter that should have came with the Saturn; At least Sega was nice enough to ship out Remix, to the gamers that ended up with the rushed Virtua Fighter launch title.

WarmSignal
07-03-2009, 03:56 AM
The N64, while being the graphics whore of that generation and boasting some of the best games of all time that shouldn't be missed for any reason, it just didn't have enough of them to hold the interest of the crowd for very long.

This just reminded me of something. Does anyone else remember that N64 code in the game Top Gear Rally for "Playstation mode". You could enter it just to make the game look crappier. lol

mick_aka
07-03-2009, 11:15 AM
Far too few games I enjoy playing on the N64, and the sheer ammount of tosh churned out into the PS catalogue turns my stomach, so Saturn all the way ty ;)

Da_Shocker
07-04-2009, 12:01 PM
I'm still amazed at how the N64 sold 20 million units in the US but only managed 5 or so in Japan. I guess US gamers bought into all the hype of no load times and 64-Bit graphics.

retrospiel
07-04-2009, 12:54 PM
N64 was the best console of its generation. It had 4 player support and by far the best games (Mario Kart, F-Zero, Mario 64, Ocarina of Time). Sadly it's also the machine that today appears to be most outdated considering it's library consists of 99,9% low res 3D games, while Saturn and PS1 still are relevant today thanks to the insane amount of excellent 2D games released for both machines.
N64 on Wii's Virtual Console however turns the N64's library into something worthwile again - thanks to its upscaled high resolution graphics and the option to use the GameCube controller. A very smart move of Nintendo.

Saturn is my personal favorite. I owned the console back in the day and recently bought a modded Japanese machine so I can finally enjoy all the excellent imports in all their glory. Saturn Bomberman is still the best Bomberman game in existance, Shin Shinobi Den the very last 2D Shinobi game, and Legend of Oasis the successor of Beyond Oasis / Story of Thor, all of which are Saturn exclusives. Other relevant games: Baku Baku, Golden Axe: The Duel, Astal, Clockwork Knight, Keio Flying Squadron 2, Darius II, countless shmups.

PlayStation offers ports of most Saturn games, among them are those that never were released in the West for its original platform: Grandia, Lunar, Thunder Force, etc. pp. The sheer amount of excellent [Japanese 2D] games makes Sony's machine the definite winner of its generation. However, since PS2 and PS3 are fully compatible it also means that owning the original hardware is pretty much worthless.

In the end, Saturn is the only machine that has some value today, although many of its best games are also available for NeoGeo, PS1, PS2 and Dreamcast.

nissling
07-04-2009, 01:17 PM
The best game on the Saturn isn't avaible for any other console then the Saturn and that game is Guardian Heroes. Extremely good multi-player, a little bit like Super smash bros but better and earlier.

Da_Shocker
07-04-2009, 01:35 PM
Other than offering built in 4 player and making analog on a joystick popular the N64 wasn't the best system. I never played Zelda and one day I will give Mario 64 another run but IMO it wasn't that great of a game and hell I thought the 2D Super Mario games were much better. I'd take the PSx over the N64 simply because it had a much vast superior library than the N64.

Knuckle Duster
07-04-2009, 01:48 PM
I only had a 64 back in 97, I remember holding a sealed N64 game, turning the tv on to get ready to play it, and then the final fantasy 7 commercial came on before I unwrapped it.

"You can always press the reset button!"

"Only on Playstation."

Devastating memories, forever burned into my brain. :cry:

Zebbe
07-04-2009, 01:55 PM
It reminds me of the whiny letters Nintendo fanboys sent to magazines complaining that Square had "betrayed" Nintendo. :lol:

Knuckle Duster
07-04-2009, 01:59 PM
I couldn't be bothered, I was intelligent enough to say:
"Shit, looks like I need to buy a playstation too!"

It certainly killed the joy of that new game, I can't even remember what it was.

tomaitheous
07-04-2009, 02:10 PM
You live in the US (well I take it you do cos' you keep saying Genesis) so that pretty much means you have no experience of the Master System anyway, you may well have owned one at the time, heck you may of even imported games for it, but due to the lack of good advertising and Nintendo's cast iron grip on the US you never would've experienced the true Master System "scene"

For the record, he lives in Canada. US isn't the only country to call the Sega 16bit home console the Genesis. I think *all* of NA has it labeled as the Genesis (though Mexico never had Genesis games localized in Spanish afaik). IIRC, B_T got an SMS early on. He's an SMS fan.

But these "scene" you're talking about. SMS US library is relatively small, IIRC. Did UK get more titles from Japan than US? And how many more titles were EU exclusive?

jesus.arnold
07-04-2009, 03:16 PM
But these "scene" you're talking about. SMS US library is relatively small, IIRC. Did UK get more titles from Japan than US? And how many more titles were EU exclusive?No, the UK got massive amounts more titles than Japan (Japanese made and home grown), heck the United States got more titles than Japan, Japan's Master System library is tiny.

Europe and Brazil got pretty much everything

The US and Canada got maybe 40% of the best games available in Europe/Brazil (though many of these games were released there on Game Gear)

Wesker
07-04-2009, 03:19 PM
But these "scene" you're talking about. SMS US library is relatively small, IIRC. Did UK get more titles from Japan than US? And how many more titles were EU exclusive?

Europe, as a whole, got more or less the same titles from the Japanese market as the United States. However, since the Japanese market was discontinued in 89, this is pretty much meaningless. The determinant factor to actually prove the healthy European market was actually receiving the post-89 games (US also got most of these until 91), most of them actually coming from Japanese development (always through Sega) despite not being released in Japan at all.

The European market has always been the largest Master System market, on par with Brazil. The latter got pretty much the same titles as Europe, except for some third-party games that were published in Europe but didn't got licensed distribution in Brazil through Tec Toy (every Codemasters game and certain titles from Acclaim, Domark, Infogrames and Tecmagik). Those are to be considered as European exclusives (or European-Australian exclusives in most cases), unless you are dismissing Brazil from the overall group, which would make the list growing a lot.

jesus.arnold
07-04-2009, 03:35 PM
Basically for the most part Brazil missed out on all the games which were created by Europeans and only worked at 50hz but they got loads of games which had been stuck in release limbo for various reasons, and they also converted some Game Gear Games to the Master System themselves. So at the end of the day I'd say Brazil and Europe's Master System libraries are on par.

Black_Tiger
07-04-2009, 03:44 PM
You live in the US (well I take it you do cos' you keep saying Genesis) so that pretty much means you have no experience of the Master System anyway, you may well have owned one at the time, heck you may of even imported games for it, but due to the lack of good advertising and Nintendo's cast iron grip on the US you never would've experienced the true Master System "scene"

For the record, he lives in Canada. US isn't the only country to call the Sega 16bit home console the Genesis. I think *all* of NA has it labeled as the Genesis (though Mexico never had Genesis games localized in Spanish afaik). IIRC, B_T got an SMS early on. He's an SMS fan.

I've been playing SMS games ever since the system was first released here. It's always been my favorite 8-bit console and is more or less tied with the Genesis as my second favorite console in general. Even my friends who didn't really get into it still knew what it was and were familiar with the games. But it is true that there wasn't an elitist "scene" that looked to exclude others who couldn't possibly understand what they did.

I guess that it's also true that I have no experience of the PC Engine, even though I owned one at the time, even imported games for it, but due to the lack of good advertising and Sega & Nintendo's cast iron grip on North America, (thanks to you) I now know that I have never experienced the true PC Engine "scene".



But these "scene" you're talking about. SMS US library is relatively small, IIRC. Did UK get more titles from Japan than US? And how many more titles were EU exclusive?

Europe got more japanese titles as well as a bunch of home grown exclusives. Sega 8-bit has a list of everything released (http://www.smstributes.co.uk/allgames.asp) in Europe, North America and Brazil, as well as some japanese games.



I can only speak for the UK I guess but here (at the time) Wonder Boy, Shinobi and Alex Kidd were more famous characters than virtually anything that came out on the Nintendo apart from the Mario series characters themselves, more famous than Samus, Mega Man, Simon Belmont, Ryu Hayabusa etc and on par with Link until that godawful cartoon started being shown on GMTV (or whatever the heck it was called back then)

I've spoken to many Americans who don't even know who Wonder Boy is?! a bunch of them will know "Adventure Island" even though it's actually just a renamed Wonder Boy with a sprite swap

You actually already went ahead and spoke for the U.S. anyway, assuming that I must be American. What you've described, is that the everyone in the U.K. has no experience with the NES because of Sega's cast iron grip on Europe. So I guess that it's actually Europeans who missed out.

North America got most of the best SMS games. Wonder Boy, Shinobi and Alex Kidd are all Sega arcade characters. Most people back in the day only knew Alex Kidd from the SMS games, but everyone knew Wonderboy and Shinobi from the arcades first and that there were home ports as well.

Adventure Island is equally as obscure over here as Wonderboy, neither series has had games since the 16-bit era. Wonderboy was so popular over here, that Monster World III was renamed as "Wonder Boy (In Monster World)" for Genesis.

Your definition of true Sega classic games should exclude the SMS outside of Europe, since you think that no one here has heard of games like Wonderboy and the Mark III did poorer in Japan. The Saturn however did better in North America and Japan, it was actually Sega's most successful console there. But I'm not the one qualifying quality or "classics" with commercial success.

Wesker
07-04-2009, 04:07 PM
Adventure Island is equally as obscure over here as Wonderboy, neither series has had games since the 16-bit era. Wonderboy was so popular over here, that Monster World III was renamed as "Wonder Boy (In Monster World)" for Genesis.

Well, Monster World III was actually titled "Wonder Boy V Monster World III" in Japan, so the thing they did was simply dropping numerals. Monster World II, on the other hand, did lack the Wonder Boy branding in Japan, and regained it when doing its move to the western markets.

Adventure Island, by the way, had this revamped adaptation for the PS2 and GameCube in Japan some years ago.

jesus.arnold
07-04-2009, 04:39 PM
Even my friends who didn't really get into it still knew what it was and were familiar with the games. But it is true that there wasn't an elitist "scene" that looked to exclude others who couldn't possibly understand what they did.I don't know what you think I mean by scene, but "elitist" certainly has no bearing on what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the fact that here you would go to school and have everyone talking about Master System games, going on about the latest Asterix, Illusion, or Wonder Boy game, swapping Master System games with each other, seeing the adverts all other the TV and in the magazines, I'm saying that as someone living in the North America you can't really talk about "impact", of course the games didn't seem to have much impact where you were as the Master System wasn't particularly popular so it was impossible for it to have any major impact in that region. Your experience of the Master System was probably more isolated to that of what was going on in Europe.


What you've described, is that the everyone in the U.K. has no experience with the NES because of Sega's cast iron grip on Europe. So I guess that it's actually Europeans who missed out.yes, People in the UK had less experience with a big popular NES "Scene" they could still experience the games though, which is the important thing anyway, unless you are of course talking about impact which is what we were talking about.


North America got most of the best SMS games. Wonder Boy, Shinobi and Alex Kidd are all Sega arcade characters. Most people back in the day only knew Alex Kidd from the SMS games, but everyone knew Wonderboy and Shinobi from the arcades first and that there were home ports as well. Adventure Island is equally as obscure over here as Wonderboy, neither series has had games since the 16-bit era. Wonderboy was so popular over here, that Monster World III was renamed as "Wonder Boy (In Monster World)" for GenesisBollocks, over the years every single time I talked about Wonder Boy people from north America always tell me it's just a rip off of Adventure Island, the only place this doesn't happen is dedicated Sega forums where people have done more research, If Wonder Boy was so popular in the US then how comes they didn't even bother to bring Wonder Boy Monster Lair to the Genesis? and the TG-16 version even dropped the Wonder Boy part of the title so I really doubt that Monster World was re-named for America's benefit, it was more likely re-named for Europe's benefit and carried over.


since you think that no one here has heard of games like Wonderboy and the Mark III did poorer in Japan.Let me just ask you something, what exactly is you idea of popular and having impact? are you saying that Wonder Boy and Alex Kidd were more popular in the late 80's early 90's North America than Mega Man, Link, Simon Belmont, Samus, Ryu Hayabasa? because this is exactly what I'm saying about the UK, I'm not saying "people had heard of them" I'm saying they had impact.

tomaitheous
07-04-2009, 04:42 PM
I downloaded the complete...(ehem) set of SMS games. Gonna browse through them to see what I missed.

But even as I didn't own an SMS, I definitely knew who Alexx kid was. And Sega arcade games were very well known here in the US. It's safe to assume that in the mid to late 80's, almost every kid who played NES or SMS went to the arcades. I definitely remember the original Wonder Boy. When Adventure Island came out on NES, I was definitely confused as to "why" they would change the name - hehe. Shinobi was hugely popular in the arcades too.

Looking at some EU SMS made games, you can definitely see the improved graphics over earlier JP soft. There are some pretty impressive games from 92-95.

On a side note, there are a lot more SMS games (even in the US) than I realized. But considering the 8bit generation died here in '90, that could be why I perceived the SMS library being small. I take it the 8bit generation lasted muuuch longer in EU (I knew it did in BR). It would be interesting to compare the library from release to '90 of both systems (here in the US).

jesus.arnold
07-04-2009, 04:56 PM
But even as I didn't own an SMS, I definitely knew who Alexx kid was.Yes but was he as well known as Mario? also you spelt his name wrong ;)


I definitely remember the original Wonder Boy. When Adventure Island came out on NES, I was definitely confused as to "why" they would change the name - hehe. Shinobi was hugely popular in the arcades too.Sorry for bringing this up but I think your age may play a factor in this, Here the Wonder Boy arcade was pretty big in yours and my brothers age group, as well as again in my age group many years later for home games machines.

retrospiel
07-04-2009, 06:32 PM
The best game on the Saturn isn't avaible for any other console then the Saturn and that game is Guardian Heroes. Extremely good multi-player, a little bit like Super smash bros but better and earlier.

Good point. I knew I forgot something.



North America got most of the best SMS games.

I'd say you guys got about 50%. No Asterix, Land of Illusion, Lucky Dime Caper, Master of Darkness, Sagaia, Power Strike II. Not even Sonic.

jesus.arnold
07-04-2009, 06:49 PM
I'd like to say here that I obviously could never truly know how popular those games were in North America as I wasn't there at the time, I just find it hard to believe you guys when you say that games like Alex Kidd were well known when I know that the NES had something like a 90% share of the videogame market in the US at the time.


No Asterix, Land of Illusion, Lucky Dime Caper, Master of Darkness, Sagaia, Power Strike II. Not even Sonic.Submarine Attack, Populous, Ninja Gaiden, Lemmings, New Zealand Story, Micro Machines, Rampart, Forgotten Worlds, Impossible Mission, Marble Madness, Rainbow Islands, Gain Ground, Robocod, Prince of Persia, Alien 3, Batman Returns, Streets of Rage, Tazmania, The Lion King, The Flash, Gauntlet, Klax, Aladdin, Pacmania, The Terminator, Sensible Soccer, Laser Ghost, Robocop Vs Terminator, Buggy Run, Fantastic Dizzy, Dracula, Desert Strike, Chuck Rock games, Bubble Bobble, Wonder Boy in Monster World, Speedball 2, Jurassic Park.

Those are what I can think of at the moment, It may not sound like much here, but when you take into account that there's not actually that many Master System games in the 1st place it start to look a little worse.

Knuckle Duster
07-04-2009, 07:09 PM
I never had a SMS back in the late 80s, but the only titles I heard about for it were Alex Kidd and Wonder Boy.

Word of mouth from multiple directions, Sega Genesis completely overshadowed that when it landed.

retrospiel
07-04-2009, 08:27 PM
Submarine Attack, Populous, Ninja Gaiden, Lemmings, New Zealand Story, Micro Machines, Rampart, Forgotten Worlds, Impossible Mission, Marble Madness, Rainbow Islands, Gain Ground, Robocod, Prince of Persia, Alien 3, Batman Returns, Streets of Rage, Tazmania, The Lion King, The Flash, Gauntlet, Klax, Aladdin, Pacmania, The Terminator, Sensible Soccer, Laser Ghost, Robocop Vs Terminator, Buggy Run, Fantastic Dizzy, Dracula, Desert Strike, Chuck Rock games, Bubble Bobble, Wonder Boy in Monster World, Speedball 2, Jurassic Park.

Almost all of these are ports that are vastly inferior to their originals. Exceptions would be Submarine Attack (which I assumed would have been released in the US), Buggy Run and The Flash, all of which are excellent originals, and Ninja Gaiden, New Zealand Story, and Bubble Bobble, which are some excellent ports - especially Ninja Gaiden!

The other games are available on dozens of platforms and some even lack essential key features in their SMS reincarnations (e.g. Mouse support in Lemmings, multiplayer in Forgotten Worlds + Micro Machines, etc.pp.). I am really not sure what's supposed to be special about the SMS ports of Robocod, Gain Ground, Marble Madness, Prince of Persia, Tazmania, Klax, Pac-Mania, Sensible Soccer, Fantastic Dizzy, Desert Strike, Chuck Rock, or Speedball 2. They're a mere shadow of their 16-bit arcade/home computer originals. Wonder Boy in Monster World in particular stands out as one of the most dissapointing examples: It not only pales in comparision to the Mega Drive original, it actually is a terrible game ruined not only by lacking the audio/visual excellence that made the original so great but also by awful controls, a choppy framerate and awkward collision detection.

The remaining games from your list are nothing but crappy movie licensed shovelware (Aladdin, Alien 3, Batman Returns, Lion King, The Terminator, Robocop vs Terminator, Dracula, Jurassic Park) all of which I'd consider torture to even think about.

- To be fair I probably should add that the 16-bit originals of these aren't much better.

gamevet
07-04-2009, 09:14 PM
The NES received a port of Smash TV and it wasn't until the SNES version came about, that anyone cared for the home version.



I'm still amazed at how the N64 sold 20 million units in the US but only managed 5 or so in Japan. I guess US gamers bought into all the hype of no load times and 64-Bit graphics.

The success of the N64 was a result of the excellent run the SNES had from 1993-1995. It was pretty much dead by year 4, with just small trickle of titles like Tony Hawk 2, Madden 2001, Conkers and Banjo-Tooie.

Da_Shocker
07-04-2009, 10:15 PM
But didn't the SNES have an even better run in Japan since Sega was always playing catchup with NEC.

Night Driver
07-04-2009, 11:16 PM
Playstation. No contest.

Metal_Sonic
07-04-2009, 11:38 PM
N64 for me. As I am sure its already been pointed out, the N64 had extremely great triple AAA games that came out at a slow rate but my parents only bought me like one or MAYBE two games a year. I had a MASSIVE collection of over 5 N64 games. Yea, cower under my massive tower of games

TheEdge
07-05-2009, 12:20 AM
The more research I do about the Saturn the more I regret not being able to get one back in the day. It seems like there was a truck load of really cool 2D games for it which is a good thing because I was never thrilled with the pixelated 3D stuff back in the day. Also Sega had the whole fun factor / Pick up and play / multiplayer perfected so it would have been an amazing system to power up with a bunch of friends around.

@ Metal Sonic, Your right, other than the Saturn the N64 was a really good system despite the limitations of the technology at the time.

j_factor
07-05-2009, 12:53 AM
The success of the N64 was a result of the excellent run the SNES had from 1993-1995. It was pretty much dead by year 4, with just small trickle of titles like Tony Hawk 2, Madden 2001, Conkers and Banjo-Tooie.

The success of the N64 was the result of a small handful of system-selling titles, mainly Mario 64 and Ocarina. Also, as Sega and Sony were both going for the teen to young adult market, they pretty much handed Nintendo the entire younger kids market for themselves.

I guess, anyway. I've always been baffled at how well the N64 sold in North America. Especially early on with its tiny library. I mean at launch it had two whole games, and it had the most successful first six months of any console up to that time. At the N64's launch, the Saturn cost the same price for the system with three games, plus the games were cheaper, and well over a hundred games were out. WTF were people thinking?

Knuckle Duster
07-05-2009, 12:55 AM
WTF were people thinking?

Mario

...

3D

...

NOMNOMNOM!

Iron Lizard
07-05-2009, 02:35 AM
Plenty of successful consoles have had only a few launch titles.

kool kitty89
07-05-2009, 06:10 AM
The success of the N64 was the result of a small handful of system-selling titles, mainly Mario 64 and Ocarina. Also, as Sega and Sony were both going for the teen to young adult market, they pretty much handed Nintendo the entire younger kids market for themselves.

I guess, anyway. I've always been baffled at how well the N64 sold in North America. Especially early on with its tiny library. I mean at launch it had two whole games, and it had the most successful first six months of any console up to that time. At the N64's launch, the Saturn cost the same price for the system with three games, plus the games were cheaper, and well over a hundred games were out. WTF were people thinking?


Mario

...

3D

...

NOMNOMNOM!

That and marketing (which kind of ties into the whole 3D thing too), Sony and Nintendo had some pretty good marketing in this period, Sega... not so much with Stolar at the helm. (though in reality that's only part of it, the whole mess of issues with SoA and SoJ were the root of the problem -and the reason for Kalinske leaving, Stolar's policies din't help either though -and some have hypothesized the dubious possibility of SoJ intentionally hiring Stolar to screw things up in the US market)

The Saturn rocked in Japan though, almost the opposite of the situation of N and Sega in the US in that gen.



The success of the N64 was a result of the excellent run the SNES had from 1993-1995. It was pretty much dead by year 4, with just small trickle of titles like Tony Hawk 2, Madden 2001, Conkers and Banjo-Tooie.

That didn't give them nearly the same advantage in Japan though. A fair amount of titles through 2000 though. (some of which were released in 2001 depending on region) As well as the above, there's ones like Battle for Naboo, Perfect Dark, Majora's Mask, and the N64 version of RE2, plus I think several Pokemon themed games came later as well. (in addition to the aformentioned trickle)

retrospiel
07-05-2009, 10:10 AM
That and marketing (which kind of ties into the whole 3D thing too), Sony and Nintendo had some pretty good marketing in this period, Sega... not so much with Stolar at the helm. (though in reality that's only part of it, the whole mess of issues with SoA and SoJ were the root of the problem -and the reason for Kalinske leaving, Stolar's policies din't help either though -and some have hypothesized the dubious possibility of SoJ intentionally hiring Stolar to screw things up in the US market)

That's a load of rubbish. Stolar had to cancel all marketing because Sega was essentially bankrupt. He was hired to pick up the pieces, not to intentionally ruin SOA.

SOA played a major role in why Sega was ruined. They had no idea what made them successful in the first place (great games), and they've wasted all their money by the bucketload for ultra expansive multimedia crap: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7391

gamevet
07-05-2009, 02:16 PM
That didn't give them nearly the same advantage in Japan though. A fair amount of titles through 2000 though. (some of which were released in 2001 depending on region) As well as the above, there's ones like Battle for Naboo, Perfect Dark, Majora's Mask, and the N64 version of RE2, plus I think several Pokemon themed games came later as well. (in addition to the aformentioned trickle)

Japan had the semi-popular Saturn, which pretty much split the sales numbers with the N64, while Playstation held the other 65%. Meanwhile, in North America, the Saturn was a non-factor (much like the TG-16) and the N64 sold just 3 million short of what the SNES had sold here. The N64 sold a couple million units within the first month of release, while it took both the Playstation and Saturn (combined) nearly 6 months to sell that many units. I'd bought a N64 within the first month, because I thought it would continue what Nintendo had done with the previous 2 consoles, but that clearly didn't happen.

Most of the games you listed were titles that had been in development for over a year, and sold fairly well since there wasn't much else to buy for the console. The N64's console sales came to a screeching halt by the time those games came out; I remember seeing Gold edition N64s in the Toys R' Us bargain bin, along with the Hey You Pikachu edition systems.

The really telling tale about the differences between the SNES and the N64 was that the SNES continued to flourish 2 years after the N64 came out, while the N64 was pretty much dead when the Gamecube arrived.

jesus.arnold
07-05-2009, 06:41 PM
Almost all of these are ports that are vastly inferior to their originals.This doesn't matter if we're talking about what it was like to own the console at the time, most people back then only had one (or two if they were really lucky) consoles, those who owned Master Systems in Europe still had access to more games whether or not they were the best versions of said games, and you could still have fun with those games. Many of my friends were happy to own Robocod on MS at a time when it was the only console they owned.


Ninja Gaiden, New Zealand Story, and Bubble Bobble, which are some excellent ports - especially Ninja Gaiden!Ninja Gaiden is an exclusive Master System game, it's not the same game that's on NES, or arcade.


I am really not sure what's supposed to be special about the SMS ports of Robocod, Gain Ground, Marble Madness, Prince of Persia, Tazmania, Klax, Pac-Mania, Sensible Soccer, Fantastic Dizzy, Desert Strike, Chuck Rock, or Speedball 2.The good thing about them is that they were available to buy if you owned a Master System, if you played Robocod round a mates house on the Amiga and liked it then it was actually possible to own it.


Wonder Boy in Monster World in particular stands out as one of the most dissapointing examples: It not only pales in comparision to the Mega Drive original, it actually is a terrible game ruined not only by lacking the audio/visual excellence that made the original so great but also by awful controls, a choppy framerate and awkward collision detection.Wonder Boy in Monster World may not be as good as the MD port, but it is absolutely awesome as an 8-bit Master System game, I'm not even sure what you're on about with the criticisms here, personally it sounds as though you just suck at it, and seriously you're insulting the graphics?! that game has to have some of the absolute best 8-bit graphics of the whole generation easily.


The remaining games from your list are nothing but crappy movie licensed shovelware (Aladdin, Alien 3, Batman Returns, Lion King, The Terminator, Robocop vs Terminator, Dracula, Jurassic Park) all of which I'd consider torture to even think about.
Yeah "shovelware" from some of the most accomplished programmers that ever made games for the system, in fact half the games you just mentioned are regularly voted as some of the best Master System games ever made. Alien 3, Batman Returns, Terminator, Jurassic Park, Robocop Vs Terminator, Dracula all gained enough votes from the members of Sega8bit to enter their public voted top 100 Master System games. By the sound of your "movie Licenced Shovelware" talk I will surmise that you're living in the post 16-bit era, when licenced games of all types took a massive turn for the worse, licenced games from the 80's and very early 90's were regularly good games (Duck Tales, Chip N' Dale, Tiny Toons, Batman games, Addams Family)


To be fair I probably should add that the 16-bit originals of these aren't much better.Aren't much better? I don't know about you but I can't stand playing the Mega Drive versions of Terminator, Jurassic Park, Batman Returns :yuck: , Bram Stokers Dracula :yuck::yuck::yuck: those games are mediocre to terrible on the Mega Drive, not to mention that half of those games are completely different and unrelated games to their Master System namesakes anyway.

Knuckle Duster
07-05-2009, 06:56 PM
How did a thread about Playstation/Saturn/N64 derail into a nostalgia driven elitist fanboy discussion on the infallibly forgotten piece of epic dog shit, known as the Sega Master System?

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/080605/battlestar/saul-tigh_l.jpg
"HOW? GODS DAMNIT!"

jesus.arnold
07-05-2009, 07:21 PM
How did a thread about Playstation/Saturn/N64 derail into a nostalgia driven elitist fanboy discussion on the infallibly forgotten piece of epic dog shit, known as the Sega Master System?

"HOW? GODS DAMNIT!"It started (quite a while ago as this conversation was dredged back up after ages) due to talk of the Saturn (worst mainstream Sega console ever) leading to a discussion of all Sega's consoles in general.

kool kitty89
07-05-2009, 07:35 PM
That's a load of rubbish. Stolar had to cancel all marketing because Sega was essentially bankrupt. He was hired to pick up the pieces, not to intentionally ruin SOA.

SOA played a major role in why Sega was ruined. They had no idea what made them successful in the first place (great games), and they've wasted all their money by the bucketload for ultra expansive multimedia crap: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7391

Hey, I said the deliberate Stollar suggestion was dubious, I don't find it likely personally, but there was definitely some bad blood with Japan. Good games alone weren't enough either, they had to break through Nintendo's marketing, the compeditive advartizements started by Katz (and continued by Kalinske), and the price cutting and (the particularly important decision Japan was shocked about) of including Sonic as the Pack-in at it's release in 1991 are what started its initial success. Marketing is by far the most important point, and pretty much all SoA handled along with some game development. (most Hardware developed by Japan) Marketing for the SMS was rather poor in the US, certainly not enough to break Nintendo (though it fared even worse in Japan), in Europe it did quite well, in part due to the lesser presence of and interest in Nintendo. This isn't the place for futher discussion on this topic, see these threads:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7061
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7183

And the info here is rather mixed in accuracy, if you've read it previously you should reconsidder some (the add-ons are not nearly as problematic as postulated, and not in the manner they imply either) http://www.screwattack.com/node/1997



Most of the games you listed were titles that had been in development for over a year, and sold fairly well since there wasn't much else to buy for the console. The N64's console sales came to a screeching halt by the time those games came out; I remember seeing Gold edition N64s in the Toys R' Us bargain bin, along with the Hey You Pikachu edition systems.

The really telling tale about the differences between the SNES and the N64 was that the SNES continued to flourish 2 years after the N64 came out, while the N64 was pretty much dead when the Gamecube arrived.

Yeah, those pikachu N64's hardly sold in the US, I remember a couple months after the game being released theywere down to ~$20-30 in stores. (Target iirc) I even considdered buying one at such a low price (if nothing else than a backup- though being ~12 and a Pokemon fan -and owning the coresponding game, a bit for that too)

The Gamecube ended up even worse in that respect than the N64, almost totally wiped out by the time the the Wii was relaesed. (of course the PS2 just domiated that Generation)

Da_Shocker
07-05-2009, 07:52 PM
And let's face it the media rarely dogged Nintendo out. Sony did everything right. Nintendo had to much respect for them to say anything and all that left was Sega. It's really sad though that the Saturn died so horribly in the US with like 2 million units sold while the N64 moved a good 20 million units here. I will say the Japanese were smarter than US and they didn't bite off that nonsense Nintendo was spewing. Had the N64 been CD ready it would've had all the RPG's and would've beat out the PSx in Japan.

kool kitty89
07-05-2009, 07:59 PM
How did a thread about Playstation/Saturn/N64 derail into a nostalgia driven elitist fanboy discussion on the infallibly forgotten piece of epic dog shit, known as the Sega Master System?

Hey, it's not shit... :(

Other than sound, it was equal or superior to the NES in pretty much every way. Too bad it didn't launch with the YM2412 FM synthesizer of the slightly later Japanese launch. (of their SMS, not the Mk.III) Though that still probably wouldn't have been enought to cut it in the US against Nintendo, at least w/out good marketing to emphesize these points... (and at a more attractive price than the NES)

jesus.arnold
07-05-2009, 08:11 PM
I think realistically there's 3 reasons why the N64 survived and sold well (in the US)

1. The Nintendo brand name/carry-over of fans from previous Nintendo consoles

2. Killer Apps - there may of been a lack of N64 games but it had a handfull of Killer apps, Goldeneye, Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, Ocarina of Time, these were system sellers and most importantly had no real equivilant on competing consoles for much of that generation, many of these games didn't receive equivilants on PS1 until around 99'. This is in opposition to what happened with the Saturn, it's killer apps (Sega Rally and Virtual Fighter 2) arrived, were massive for a while, but took the backseat to later PS1 games over time.

3. The idea of hardware superiority - whether true or not, during the time it was widely considered that the N64 was a much more powerful console than the PS1 and Saturn (the whole 64-bit Vs 32-Bit)

WarmSignal
07-05-2009, 08:18 PM
Wow, I've got to say I never thought of the N64 as a failure what-so-ever. Not until recently did I realize it wasn't considered the "winner" of it's era. I personally believe sales are not the bottom line.

Back in the day, I was sold on the idea that the N64 was simply superior. I had propoganda VHS tapes from Nintendo coming in the mail, subscription to Nintendo's magazines, everywhere I went, N64. So it's no wonder I didn't consider anything else and just waited for the launch of the N64. I played it for a year straight afterwards, thinking it was simply the best.

Though all the while, I was seeing tons of advertisment for Playstation, many good looking games, and so much talk from so many people who had one about how good it was, despite being only 32 bit (yeah, I actually cared about that sort of thing back then). So in the second half of it's lifespan, I got a PSX. All of my snobby N64 friends asked me "Why would you want something like that? It's not even 64 bit!", and at first it did feel like a step backwards, but the games were great and I ended up enjoying it just as much as I did N64. Even some of my hypocritical friends ended up making the switch after me...

There was a brief period when I considered a Saturn before getting my PSX, the thought popped into my head maybe a couple of times. But there were some problems, I literally didn't know what a Saturn looked like, physically. I'd never seen it, no one I knew owned one, I heard nothing about it from anyone, I saw no tv advertisements for it or any games... almost like it didn't exist. That's why I didn't get a Saturn, and I think my story is typical, at least in the US. For some reason I was sold on the Dreamcast at launch, but harldy knew the Saturn existed. I didn't get my Saturn until around 03' or so.

As for which one was the best, I can't say, at least not yet. I still have a lot more to play for the Saturn... damn overpriced games.

retrospiel
07-05-2009, 09:02 PM
Marketing is by far the most important point

?! - If there are no games, how would you go on to advertise them ? (see lack of Japanese imports from 1993 on) - or if you do promise the customer something that doesn't exist ("interactive movies", "multi-media", "virtual reality", etc.pp. - they must have been on crack or something)



This doesn't matter if we're talking about what it was like to own the console at the time, most people back then only had one (or two if they were really lucky) consoles


The good thing about them is that they were available to buy if you owned a Master System, if you played Robocod round a mates house on the Amiga and liked it then it was actually possible to own it.

Good point. - What I was getting at though was that the US got maybe 50% of the best Master System games. From your post I understood that you disagreed, but only a handful of the games you listed were among those that I'd consider the very best SMS games (Submarine Attack, Ninja Gaiden, The Flash, New Zealand Story and Bubble Bobble).


Ninja Gaiden is an exclusive Master System game, it's not the same game that's on NES, or arcade.

Like Sonic the Hedgehog. - Both are much less of a port than actually original games tailormade for the hardware.



Wonder Boy in Monster World may not be as good as the MD port, but it is absolutely awesome as an 8-bit Master System game.

What I was trying to say was that in my opinion it is among the very best Mega Drive games but on SMS it was a huge dissapointment, and definitely not anywhere near as good as the other SMS Monster Worlds.

I might try it give it another chance on day.



Yeah "shovelware" from some of the most accomplished programmers that ever made games for the system

I did not want to insult the people that worked on these. I know that people have bills to pay. What I meant is that these games are not among what you'd consider the games that defined the system.



By the sound of your "movie Licenced Shovelware" talk I will surmise that you're living in the post 16-bit era, when licenced games of all types took a massive turn for the worse, licenced games from the 80's and very early 90's were regularly good games (Duck Tales, Chip N' Dale, Tiny Toons, Batman games, Addams Family)

I think it has much more to do with each individual game rather than with the decade when they're made. Even without having done any academic research I think it's safe to say that most licensed games suck, no matter when or for which system they were made. Of course, there are a few exceptions - like some of the Capcom and Konami games you mentioned.



half of those games are completely different and unrelated games to their Master System namesakes anyway.

Ah, okay, I wasn't aware of the differences. I guess I will give them another try one of these days.





Japan had the semi-popular Saturn, which pretty much split the sales numbers with the N64, while Playstation held the other 65%. Meanwhile, in North America, the Saturn was a non-factor (much like the TG-16) and the N64 sold just 3 million short of what the SNES had sold here. The N64 sold a couple million units within the first month of release, while it took both the Playstation and Saturn (combined) nearly 6 months to sell that many units.

Posted this a while back in some other thread but here it is again, on topic:
NdpMv5FjQ5M

Da_Shocker
07-05-2009, 09:14 PM
I think realistically there's 3 reasons why the N64 survived and sold well (in the US)

1. The Nintendo brand name/carry-over of fans from previous Nintendo consoles

2. Killer Apps - there may of been a lack of N64 games but it had a handfull of Killer apps, Goldeneye, Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, Ocarina of Time, these were system sellers and most importantly had no real equivilant on competing consoles for much of that generation, many of these games didn't receive equivilants on PS1 until around 99'. This is in opposition to what happened with the Saturn, it's killer apps (Sega Rally and Virtual Fighter 2) arrived, were massive for a while, but took the backseat to later PS1 games over time.

3. The idea of hardware superiority - whether true or not, during the time it was widely considered that the N64 was a much more powerful console than the PS1 and Saturn (the whole 64-bit Vs 32-Bit)


1. I agree with that statement

2. IDK man every system had it's fair share of killer apps. The N64's lack of any good RPG's is why it flopped in Japan. The Saturn had better RPG's than the N64 and was able to beat out the N64 in Japan. Nintendo was simply hyped to death by the media over here. And they made Mario 64 out to be the best game EVER. 3rd party games were mainly crap on it just like the Saturn. I think by extending the SNES life that helped the ease from going from SNES to N64 much easier.

3. This really was never the case as the N64 graphics were far from flawless. Blurring graphics, simple textured map graphics, along with pop up. (LOAD MANAGEMENT FTL) I will say that water effect in Wave Race (alpha blending?) was outstanding.

Puffy2k316
07-05-2009, 09:41 PM
I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the N64 sales occured within the first year of it's launch. I know for a fact that the PSX really didn't start whipping the N64 until 1997-98 so it's reasonable to assume everybody was waiting for Nintendo to make their move before they bought a console and then they all went with the N64 (Due to the massive amount of hype) and by mid-late 97 when the N64 was putting out almost no games and FF VII was on the horizon everyone started switching over.

It's mostly just a theory, but it's definitely the way things went for me. Got a N64 X-Mas 1996 and a year later got a PSX with FFVII (the first time I ever even thought about needing more then one video game system) and never touched the N64 except for when Zelda came out

jesus.arnold
07-05-2009, 10:17 PM
What I was getting at though was that the US got maybe 50% of the best Master System games. From your post I understood that you disagreedNo I agree, I think 50% is a pretty realistic estimate.

It's a shame the graphs only start from 96', from what I understand in Japan the Saturn was easily outselling the PS1 by substantial amounts in the early days, According to Tom Kalinske by 1996 the standings were 3 million Saturns sold in Japan and 2 million PS1's, and looking at those graphs the PS1 must've been gaining fast through that year (which indicates the Saturn must've gained a dramatic lead during end of 94-95)


2. IDK man every system had it's fair share of killer apps.Not really, from the point of view of someone in the UK who lived at the time all the Saturn had was Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally, by 97' these had become old hat and the Saturn was left with no killer apps at all. Stuff like Nights, Guardian Heroes, Panzer Dragoon and such may have been good games but they were never killer apps, mainstreamers had no interest in those games at all, A proper Sonic game now that would've been a killer app, but it never happened.


The N64's lack of any good RPG's is why it flopped in Japan. The Saturn had better RPG's than the N64 and was able to beat out the N64 in Japan.Yes, but that's one genre, and it's a genre which was more important to Japan than the rest of the world, and it's also a genre that pitted the Saturn directly with the PS1 which obliterated it in this area whilst the N64 gave you something different to what the PS1 was offering.


This really was never the case as the N64 graphics were far from flawless. Blurring graphics, simple textured map graphics, along with pop up. (LOAD MANAGEMENT FTL) I will say that water effect in Wave Race (alpha blending?) was outstanding.The N64 had blurry graphics, the PS1 had pixellated graphics and dodgy texture warping.

Da_Shocker
07-05-2009, 11:11 PM
No I agree, I think 50% is a pretty realistic estimate.

It's a shame the graphs only start from 96', from what I understand in Japan the Saturn was easily outselling the PS1 by substantial amounts in the early days, According to Tom Kalinske by 1996 the standings were 3 million Saturns sold in Japan and 2 million PS1's, and looking at those graphs the PS1 must've been gaining fast through that year (which indicates the Saturn must've gained a dramatic lead during end of 94-95)

Not really, from the point of view of someone in the UK who lived at the time all the Saturn had was Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally, by 97' these had become old hat and the Saturn was left with no killer apps at all. Stuff like Nights, Guardian Heroes, Panzer Dragoon and such may have been good games but they were never killer apps, mainstreamers had no interest in those games at all, A proper Sonic game now that would've been a killer app, but it never happened.

Those were brand new IP's that end up going going up against proven IP's that already had a great fanbase. And other than NiGHTs none of those gamers were marketed heavily. And NiGHT's was mainly languished for it shortcomings by the media who's head was so far up Nintendo's ass that it wasn't even funny.

Yes, but that's one genre, and it's a genre which was more important to Japan than the rest of the world, and it's also a genre that pitted the Saturn directly with the PS1 which obliterated it in this area whilst the N64 gave you something different to what the PS1 was offering.

Like what? Better mascot games?
Better Fighters 2D and 3D? NO
Better Sports games? NO
Better 2D Games? No
Better FPS? maybe
Better Racers? No
Better Platformers? no
Better RPG's

The N64 had blurry graphics, the PS1 had pixellated graphics and dodgy texture warping.

Pixelated graphics were apart of the 32-Bit era. Nintendo promised gamers graphics that would rival the likes of T2 and Jurassic Park. It never came close to delivering that kind of performance.

jesus.arnold
07-05-2009, 11:50 PM
Seeing as this is a conversation on the actual market at the time i'm going to speak from the perspective of the average mainstream gamer from 94-99

Firstly for the most part 2D games don't play a factor in this discussion at all, in the mid to late 90's virtually no-one was interested in 2D games anymore, apart from the fact that 3D was the new "in" thing, to be quite frank if me or my friends had wanted to play 2D games we would've stuck with our Mega Drives and SNES' which offered a hell of a lot more games and at a cheaper price than the Saturn, in fact I did stick with my Mega Drive for this very reason.



Better 3D Fighters, NOI agree, the N64 was crap at 3D fighting games and only had a handful of good ones


Better Sports games? NOMost of the major sports games recieved versions on the N64, the N64 and PS1 were pretty much equal in this area


Better FPS? maybeN64 FPS games felt like an entire generation ahead of the PS1 shooters, the 1st PS1 FPS game that could compare on any level to what was on N64 was Medal of Honor and it was nearly 2000 before that came out, even more crushing was the fact that there wasn't even a good 4-player FPS on the system at all until Quake II in 1999


Better Racers? NoOh please, how many PS1 racing games had a 4-player split screen? by 97' I wouldn't even bother touching a racing game if it wasn't 4-player. 2-player racing is sh#t and for the most part in my eyes at the time if a game was 2-player only it might as well be completely missing a multiplayer aspect leaving you with only half a game. The N64 had masses more variation in it's quality racing games than the PS1 anyway, the only thing it was missing was an equivilant to GT


Better Platformers? noAgain N64 platformers made PS1 games look bad for a good few years, It wasn't until stuff like Ape Escape came out in 99' and the later Spyro games arrived that the PS1 started to hit back with any real force (and even then I'd argue that they're not quite up to the standards of some of the N64 greats) Also, what exactly is the PS1 equivilant to Ocarina of Time platform/Adventure wise?


Better RPG'sRPG's on N64 were terrible, this was easily the N64's biggest weakness.

Da_Shocker
07-06-2009, 12:25 AM
Capcom saw fit to make a good amount of 2D games and for whatever reason they saw fit to port over games that simply could'nt even work on the PSx. So games like XvS, MvS and MvC which were butchered as hell but sold a sh!t load copies so dismissing 2D games is simply stupid.

Sports games were equal simply because other EA Sports everything else on the N64 was crappy. Remember 989 became to Sony what Sega Sports was to the Genesis. On the N64 u played either EA or some other crappy 3rd party game. On the PSX you have EA, those same crappy 3rd partys or 989 when they were still making good games.

But it can be debated that the PSx did have the link cable and some games did support it. Sure it would be a bitch to set that sh!t up but it could be done. EVen with the 4 player you could always find out were your opponent was at. But i'll give the N64 the nod

4 player racing don't make me LOL. Why do most people think that Mario Kart on the SNES was better than Mario Kart 64? And if you really wanna get down to the the nitty gritty why did'nt you mention Street Racer which was on the Saturn and PSx and supported up 8 characters at once.

And did Croc not look damn near as good as Mario 64 did and this came out way back in 97 jsut a year after Mario 64. And u seem to have forgotten about Sympony of the Night which jsut happened to be one of the very best games and sh!ts all over the crappy 3D version the N64 had lol

gamevet
07-06-2009, 02:54 AM
N64 FPS games felt like an entire generation ahead of the PS1 shooters, the 1st PS1 FPS game that could compare on any level to what was on N64 was Medal of Honor and it was nearly 2000 before that came out, even more crushing was the fact that there wasn't even a good 4-player FPS on the system at all until Quake II in 1999

Oh please, how many PS1 racing games had a 4-player split screen? by 97' I wouldn't even bother touching a racing game if it wasn't 4-player. 2-player racing is sh#t and for the most part in my eyes at the time if a game was 2-player only it might as well be completely missing a multiplayer aspect leaving you with only half a game. The N64 had masses more variation in it's quality racing games than the PS1 anyway, the only thing it was missing was an equivilant to GT.

Unless you had a 32" (was about $650 back then) television, I can't even imagine 4 people hovering over a 20"-27" television trying to see what the hell they were playing.

Beyond Waverace, the N64 racing games (Cruisin USA blows) pretty much sucked. Ridge Racer made it years later, but by then nobody cared. Okay, I can give a nod to SW: Ep.1 Racer (though I was playing it on DC), but I'd have to say the N64 was the worst of the bunch, compared to when Sega was pumping out it's arcade racers for the Saturn and the PSX had games like Wipeout, Need for Speed, R4 and Gran Turismo.







There was a brief period when I considered a Saturn before getting my PSX, the thought popped into my head maybe a couple of times. But there were some problems, I literally didn't know what a Saturn looked like, physically. I'd never seen it, no one I knew owned one, I heard nothing about it from anyone, I saw no tv advertisements for it or any games... almost like it didn't exist. That's why I didn't get a Saturn, and I think my story is typical, at least in the US. For some reason I was sold on the Dreamcast at launch, but harldy knew the Saturn existed. I didn't get my Saturn until around 03' or so.
.

Really?

I had a padded carrying case I put together to carry my Saturn onto an airplane. The case had the Sega Saturn sticker that came with the console, placed on the outside. One of the skycaps noticed my case and asked if I had a Sega Saturn in there.

The Saturn didn't have a ton of advertising, but Sega did push Virtua Fighter 2 with the "A little too real" commercials. I recall several other ad campaigns but that was the best.

PnS95QWyVHo

kool kitty89
07-06-2009, 03:41 AM
?! - If there are no games, how would you go on to advertise them ? (see lack of Japanese imports from 1993 on) - or if you do promise the customer something that doesn't exist ("interactive movies", "multi-media", "virtual reality", etc.pp. - they must have been on crack or something)

They were hardly alone in a lot of the stuff, a good example (in terms of VR) is the dreaded Virtual Boy... Anyway, I was referring to the initial success, 1993 is when the problems with Japan started, 1994 they got significantly worse. As for imports, this got far, far worse for the Saturn with Stolar's "quality control" policies. :roll:
Do please check out the threads I linked too, this is getting off topic and there's a lot that has already been discussed in those threads. (a while ago I, like many beleived that Sega's Add-ons were among the biggest mistakes and the US was largely responsible, but it's far, far more complex than that)



4 player racing don't make me LOL. Why do most people think that Mario Kart on the SNES was better than Mario Kart 64? And if you really wanna get down to the the nitty gritty why did'nt you mention Street Racer which was on the Saturn and PSx and supported up 8 characters at once.

And did Croc not look damn near as good as Mario 64 did and this came out way back in 97 jsut a year after Mario 64. And u seem to have forgotten about Sympony of the Night which jsut happened to be one of the very best games and sh!ts all over the crappy 3D version the N64 had lol

Split screen 4-player was a massive selling point for my freinds and I back in the day (and 4-player in general. SSB would have sucked otherwise) The lesser greatness of Mario Kart 64 has nothing to do with 4-player, that's one of the few redeeming qualities. (the problem is it improves rather little else over the original), Diddy Kon Racing beat the crap out of Mario kart, plus there's Star Fox 64, Golden Eye, among others.


Unless you had a 32" (was about $650 back then) television, I can't even imagine 4 people hovering over a 20"-27" television trying to see what the hell they were playing.


We did (and do, sometimes even on a 17/18 incher, but usually on the 27"), Goldeneye, Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, Star Fox 64 (the multiplay was the big seller, and the game I rented the system the most for prior to getting one in 1999). It's just something you get used to, we've still got a 27" (Sanyo flat screen SD CRT) TV as our main entertainment system set-up at home (the original 27" ~1990 Sony Trinitron died several years back). Plenty of modern 4-player split screen are completely tolerable. (even in 16x9)

The 4-players are just awesome for party play with some freinds over, there's some (like The World Is Not Enough, which has even better Multiplayer than Goldeneye) that I never got but rented several times for just such occasions. Multiplayer was an absolutely huge part of my N64 experience.