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JDB
07-31-2009, 05:20 PM
Joymachine

Devil N
07-31-2009, 05:24 PM
Joymachine
QFT.

The last real games console, as far as I'm concerned.

mini77
07-31-2009, 05:30 PM
I think the last 'real' games console is a stretch, but the Dreamcast surely has to be one of the best systems ever released. If only it had the recognition and support back in 2000, maybe Sega's fortunes would have turned out differently.

TheEdge
07-31-2009, 05:49 PM
QFT.

The last real games console, as far as I'm concerned.

I agree,

Great system. I'm very happy new games are still coming out for it. A fitting end to a wonderfully made console.

NeoVamp
08-01-2009, 10:12 AM
a wonderfully made console.

WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU, THE DREAMCAST IS MAKING TOO MUCH NOISE!!

JDB
08-01-2009, 10:29 AM
WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU, THE DREAMCAST IS MAKING TOO MUCH NOISE!!

I've thought about either removing the fan or trying to find a 'quiet' fan

TheEdge
08-01-2009, 12:12 PM
WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU, THE DREAMCAST IS MAKING TOO MUCH NOISE!!

The Dreamcast doubles as a lawn mower.

QuickSciFi
08-01-2009, 01:54 PM
The last gaming console to make me both, happy and sad, at the same time.:?

Chilly Willy
08-01-2009, 03:21 PM
I just got a Dreamcast a week ago, and I love it! It might be a bit noisy, but most folks aren't going to find it objectionable. I've usually got a couple fans running in the house anyway given that it's summer, so it's hardly even noticeable.

Now is a good time for people to get those consoles they couldn't or didn't when they first came out. You can get some really good deals on both the consoles and games.

TmEE
08-01-2009, 04:40 PM
I have done some extensive cooling mods in my DC since I overclocked it and it did not like it and thus I had to increase vcore and that made things 2x hotter so I had to rework all cooling... on the good side, I can have overclocking and things are more quiet than stock DC... and I usually have my HiFi on rather high volume too so no other sounds are heard than what comes from the HiFi :3

Anyone with DC needs to get SA2 for it !!!

Puffy2k316
08-01-2009, 06:59 PM
I'd say that the DC along with the PS2 was the last gaming console. Most consoles since then have been downgraded PCs in a box or just pieces of garbage. I prefer the DC way more over the PS2 though.

David J.
08-02-2009, 12:05 AM
It's a pretty damn good system. Lots of great games for it, and ones that are pretty damn cheap and easy to get.

QuickSciFi
08-02-2009, 12:23 AM
It's a pretty damn good system. Lots of great games for it, and ones that are pretty damn cheap and easy to get.

Brand New, I might add.:D

runback22
08-02-2009, 12:27 AM
I'll never forget 9/9/99.....That was the last time I was truly impressed with the leap in graphics from one gen to another. So many memories of a great system that unfortunately died before its time....

gamevet
08-02-2009, 05:26 AM
WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU, THE DREAMCAST IS MAKING TOO MUCH NOISE!!

It's nothing compared to the jet engine levels of fan noise coming from a 360.

sketch
08-02-2009, 09:06 AM
It's nothing compared to the jet engine levels of fan noise coming from a 360.

Or a PS3 for that matter...

mrbigreddog
08-02-2009, 12:07 PM
It's nothing compared to the jet engine levels of fan noise coming from a 360.

Very True!! And I don't have any issues with the fans being loud... Just when the CD reads... That's a little loud... But the 360 sucks balls!

NeoVamp
08-02-2009, 12:31 PM
Or a PS3 for that matter...

My PS3 doesn't make that much noise, certainly nothing like a Dreamcast.

gamevet
08-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Yeah, the PS3 is pretty quiet.

Elusive
08-02-2009, 07:45 PM
Dreamcast? You mean, my Sonic Adventure/Crazy Taxi/ChuChu Rocket! machine? :D


Very True!! And I don't have any issues with the fans being loud... Just when the CD reads... That's a little loud... But the 360 sucks balls!

Install your games to the hard drive, you'll never need to spin a disc again. It's possible with the latest firmware :)

17daysolderthannes
08-02-2009, 09:01 PM
Dreamcast? You mean, my Sonic Adventure/Crazy Taxi/ChuChu Rocket! machine? :D



Install your games to the hard drive, you'll never need to spin a disc again. It's possible with the latest firmware :)

Say wha? So what stops someone from renting a game and installing it on the hard drive? does it just do a check to make sure the correct game is in the tray and then boots or something?

NeoVamp
08-02-2009, 09:47 PM
does it just do a check to make sure the correct game is in the tray and then boots or something?

Yep.

sketch
08-02-2009, 11:00 PM
My PS3 doesn't make that much noise, certainly nothing like a Dreamcast.

My PS3 fan runs frequently. It's not super loud, but it is is noticeable.

The DC disc drive is loud, but not annoyingly so, IMHO. It's one of the better consoles ever made for a number of reasons...

NeoVamp
08-02-2009, 11:55 PM
My PS3 fan runs frequently.


Maybe because you're located in California? maybe its the PS3 trying to keep itself cooled to a certain temperature.

yay for living in a colder part of Europe i guess, well not right now, its 29c here.

but i never hear my PS3, well maybe if i listen very carefully, but the DC?
Damn it sounds like a jet engine when i turn it on. (and no its not broken)

I'd use my DC much more often if it weren't for that damn noise, hell i got some great games for it that i never play because of my virgin ears..

Schwazilla
08-03-2009, 03:35 AM
I just got won one on bay for 30 shipped.

System with cables, 2 controllers, 2 vmu, and 3 random games. I think I did ok.

17daysolderthannes
08-03-2009, 03:46 AM
Maybe because you're located in California? maybe its the PS3 trying to keep itself cooled to a certain temperature.

yay for living in a colder part of Europe i guess, well not right now, its 29c here.

but i never hear my PS3, well maybe if i listen very carefully, but the DC?
Damn it sounds like a jet engine when i turn it on. (and no its not broken)

I'd use my DC much more often if it weren't for that damn noise, hell i got some great games for it that i never play because of my virgin ears..

that's not the fan, its the laser sled, the fan is practically silent on the DC.

gamevet
08-03-2009, 03:51 AM
Not necessarily the sled, but the GD drive motor, since it's spinning about 10 times faster than your standard CD player.

Deo
08-03-2009, 04:23 AM
The Dreamcast is loud because "It's Thinking".

sketch
08-03-2009, 05:24 AM
Maybe because you're located in California? maybe its the PS3 trying to keep itself cooled to a certain temperature.

yay for living in a colder part of Europe i guess, well not right now, its 29c here.

but i never hear my PS3, well maybe if i listen very carefully, but the DC?
Damn it sounds like a jet engine when i turn it on. (and no its not broken)

I'd use my DC much more often if it weren't for that damn noise, hell i got some great games for it that i never play because of my virgin ears..

I think it is heating up; the spot in my tv cabinet may not be well ventilated. Hrm.

As for the DC, the loud disc drive was one of the first things I noticed about it, but it never bothered me (and I never noticed it during gameplay). Personal preference, of course. It is loud, and I can see it irritating some.

mini77
08-03-2009, 05:26 AM
The drive noise only bothers me in quieter games, Shenmue for example. When playing something like Ikaruga I never hear the drive at all.

jerry coeurl
08-03-2009, 05:29 AM
The Dreamcast is loud because "It's Thinking".

I absolutely loved those ads. Best thing to come from Sega's advertising dept. since Blast Processing.


As for the DC, the loud disc drive was one of the first things I noticed about it, but it never bothered me (and I never noticed it during gameplay). Personal preference, of course. It is loud, and I can see it irritating some.

I actually think it's kind of adorable. The little console that could, listen how hard it's trying to play games for me! Totally endearing. I would not want a quieter Dreamcast, no sir.

Speedle
08-03-2009, 06:13 AM
one of the best consoles ever made and it makes Gran Turismo 2 look so much better than the PS2 thanks to the anti-alising! god bless Bleemcast! :D

TheEdge
08-03-2009, 10:27 AM
I think the VMU idea should have continued to be used. I don't know why Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo haven't picked that idea up yet. It would be perfect for sports games and little tamegachi things.

Elusive
08-03-2009, 06:19 PM
Say wha? So what stops someone from renting a game and installing it on the hard drive? does it just do a check to make sure the correct game is in the tray and then boots or something?

Uh, yes. When you insert a game disc, if you hit Y on the 'Play Game' icon, it brings up the disc information screen, where it gives you an overview of the game, boxart, rating, additional downloads etc. etc. From there you can install it, which creates a disc image on the hard drive.

You have to have an original game disc in the tray to play it, which prevents you buying & returning the game for free - it only ever spins up when you launch the game, though, and defaults to boot from the hard drive. There are a few exceptions (original Xbox games and a few nonstandard 360 games), but by and large it makes a larger hard drive very useful. Smaller load times, less heat, less drive noise.

[edit] and the upcoming update on the 11th with downloadable Games on Demand could even make that irrelevant.

Chilly Willy
08-03-2009, 07:49 PM
I think the VMU idea should have continued to be used. I don't know why Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo haven't picked that idea up yet. It would be perfect for sports games and little tamegachi things.

Sony is sort-of doing it with the PSP and PS3.

Devil N
08-03-2009, 07:53 PM
The Dreamcast is the last console that makes me feel giddy just thinking about the machine itself. That's the mark of a real games console to me. I had before that with the Mega Drive and the first PlayStation. Games don't have to come into the equation for that - merely the thought of owning and operating the machine is enough to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

The last two generations of gaming consoles have brought tons of great games, undoubtedly, and some of them have definitely been able to awaken that special feeling inside. But the machines themselves are all just... blah. They look and feel more and more like glorified PC's, which is not what I want from a games console. The Gamecube may be an exception to this rule, but ironically enough it has also been Nintendo's least successful console.

(Okay, technically the DC is from the previous generation, but practically it fell in-between the PS1 and PS2 generations. Plus, the way it was promoted it seemed to be intended more as a competitor for the PS1.)


Sony is sort-of doing it with the PSP and PS3.
Sony already tried to do that with the PocketStation. And failed miserably.

TheEdge
08-07-2009, 10:42 AM
lol, can you guys guess who I am in this debate on the DC? I'll give you one guess.....

http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?p=5148430#post5148430

kool kitty89
08-07-2009, 08:27 PM
(Okay, technically the DC is from the previous generation, but practically it fell in-between the PS1 and PS2 generations. Plus, the way it was promoted it seemed to be intended more as a competitor for the PS1.)


Hmm, technologically, I think it's a lot closer to the other 6th gen consoles (PS2, GC, XBox), though not quite as powerful as these, I think it could certainly keep up, particularly with the easy of programming. (especially compared to the PS2, being very difficult to really take advantage of the hardware)

Anyway, I think it was more to beat the PS1/N64 than compete against them, oneof the cleanest designed consoles ever IMO, they got pretty much everything right (cost efficiency, development, advertizing, convience of use, 4 controllers, though the controllers could have been better IMO). They just really screwed themselves the previous generation, whio knows what have happened to the DC had things played out though, rather than being cut short. (particularly in leu of the GC and Xbox's limited success)


I think the VMU idea should have continued to be used. I don't know why Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo haven't picked that idea up yet. It would be perfect for sports games and little tamegachi things.

I don't know, I think the VMU's design could have helpped as much as it hurt, it added cost to the memory cards and made them require batteries. (correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the VMU's not being able to save games without the battery)
One big issue was the tiny 128 kB of memory they held, it should have been 512 kB at the minimum (preferably 2 MB), and there's also the annoying controller cord placement related to the VMU slot arrangement. (I kind of like the 4 onboard controller memory slots, like N64 or XBox -both of which were only used in a limited manner, but I think they should have just had simple, bare bones memory cards with 2MB, having an LCD screen onboard the controller itsself migh thave been an interesing idea)



I do kind of wonder what might have happened had things played out with the DC, as I mentioned above, the Xbox and GC really struggled, and the DC may have competed well against these, thoguh I don't think any would have really gotten close to Sony. (the DC was pretty damn successful for its short life.
In hindsight, cutting the DC like they did seems to have hurt more than helpped, even if they still dropped hardware afterwards, running through the full life would probably have been better. The abbrupt change left them weak and they certianly didn't make a good entrance into 3d party software, and eventually got baught by Sammy. (a more gradual shift may have been better, Sega had already been porting a fainr number of games to PC for quite a while, they could have expanded on that through the DC's life in preparation for full transition to software only, particularly with the DC's windo's CE platfor facilitating things, and the Xbox being a good paltform to work with after discontiuing the DC, or even start doing cross platform ports to Xbox while still supporting the DC)

That last bit of though kind of hinges on an even bigger what if. Microsoft had previosuly offered to join with Sega on a console project (or purchase/merge them I can't remember the specifics, but it was about the same time as the Windows CE deal), and it was pretty obvious microsoft was moving toward the console market, so Sega could have taken advantage of this. Either teaming up for the DC, or making a deal with Microsoft arranging the Xbox's release, minimalizing conflict with the Dreamcast's market. Preferably, the Xbox could actually be treated as the DC's successor, with shared Sega and MS branding (or just Sega branding under MS), probably would have helped a lot given the initial hesitation by consumers with the Xbox, and particularly strengthened the Japanese market. With the Xbox comeing out slightly later, they could have continued development a bit longer too, enhancing things, or just keep things close to the way they are, but launch at a lower price. (the Xbox already being pretty darn powerful in that gen, probably the best overall technically, though I'm sure each had their advantages)

yeah, and I know Sega getting picked up by MS maight not be that appealing, but it couldn't be worse than what happened with Sammy, in fact it might have been better given the timeframe. (Sega getting a better deal with more freedom, better for MS too given the Sega name, particularly for the Japanese market, and the improving US/EU reputation durring Dreamcast after the tarnishing from the 5th gen debacle)
Kind of interesting that Sega started using a lot of PC derived arcade hardware post DC, particularly with the Xbox derived Chihiro and more recent boards. (makes you wonder what the Xbox 360 equivelent would have been like had such a partnership been undertaken, more like the Lindbergh board perhaps, or something newer like Europa)

Chilly Willy
08-07-2009, 09:40 PM
NO ONE has EVER survived making a deal with Microsoft. They either get absorbed completely, or run into the ground. In either case, the company is gone for good. MS is like the Borg in that respect. :)

kool kitty89
08-07-2009, 11:52 PM
OK, then just the other part about following through with the Dreamcast.

But the coment about MS rememnds me about what happened to RARE... :(

TheEdge
08-08-2009, 01:00 AM
The VMU's don't require a battery unless you use it away from the Dreamcast. You can pop in the VMU and it will work just fine without batteries. Once you take it out of the controller port it will need the coin cells.

The first thing I do when I get a new VMU is take out the batteries.

Baloo
08-08-2009, 01:35 AM
lol, can you guys guess who I am in this debate on the DC? I'll give you one guess.....

http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?p=5148430#post5148430

Are you "TheCoolinator"?

kool kitty89
08-08-2009, 02:51 AM
The VMU's don't require a battery unless you use it away from the Dreamcast. You can pop in the VMU and it will work just fine without batteries. Once you take it out of the controller port it will need the coin cells.

The first thing I do when I get a new VMU is take out the batteries.

Ok, not so bad then, having only 128 kB was really skimpy though. Having it plug into the bottom probably would have solved the cord issue too. (I still think the controller should have been more like the Saturn's 3D one though)

Otherwise, the LCD screen may have added unnecessary cost (possibly why they skimped on the storage), maybe having the screen onboard the controllers. (though that would only make them useful for doing in-game stuff, not the tamagochi thing)

sketch
08-08-2009, 05:32 AM
I absolutely loved those ads. Best thing to come from Sega's advertising dept. since Blast Processing.



I actually think it's kind of adorable. The little console that could, listen how hard it's trying to play games for me! Totally endearing. I would not want a quieter Dreamcast, no sir.

Sadly, I find the disc drive noise from the DC strangely comforting. Now I wish I hadn't sold it in my last paring effort:( I might have a spare one lying about. Hrm.

Iron Lizard
08-08-2009, 06:07 AM
I always loved the fan noise. It's like the howl of a supercharger, the jet like sound from a turbocharger, or the whine of straight cut gears, all can be annoying to the uninitiated. For those in the know the reaction is a quite different. :)

TheEdge
08-08-2009, 01:00 PM
Are you "TheCoolinator"?

Ding Ding Ding! :!: !


Ok, not so bad then, having only 128 kB was really skimpy though. Having it plug into the bottom probably would have solved the cord issue too. (I still think the controller should have been more like the Saturn's 3D one though)

Otherwise, the LCD screen may have added unnecessary cost (possibly why they skimped on the storage), maybe having the screen onboard the controllers. (though that would only make them useful for doing in-game stuff, not the tamagochi thing)

The LCD screen is cool in a "futuristic" type way but all in all its completely unnecessary if you don't play those little on the go games that come with most DC titles. I still like it because in some games there are animations that coincide with your movements. In Soul Calibur a little cartoon of your characters pops on the VMU at the start of every battle. Every time you swing your weapon the cartoon guy does it too. It was very cool. Especially back in 1999-2000

Chilly Willy
08-08-2009, 01:01 PM
Ok, not so bad then, having only 128 kB was really skimpy though. Having it plug into the bottom probably would have solved the cord issue too. (I still think the controller should have been more like the Saturn's 3D one though)

Otherwise, the LCD screen may have added unnecessary cost (possibly why they skimped on the storage), maybe having the screen onboard the controllers. (though that would only make them useful for doing in-game stuff, not the tamagochi thing)

Wasn't there a "4X" VMU released at the same time as one of SEGA's big games simply because the 128K wasn't big enough for the game?

If SEGA really wanted the VMU to be a draw to the Dreamcast, they should have freely distributed a package that would generate apps for it. Make it easy to make little things and people would have... they'd have had all sorts of fans making things to pass along to each other.

sketch
08-08-2009, 03:19 PM
The 4X VMU had 4 separate banks, so you had to switch between them (i.e. you never got a larger contiguous storage space than the regular VMU). It just saved you from pulling the VMU out and putting in another.

David J.
08-08-2009, 03:20 PM
There was a Sega branded 4x Memory Card released, but the Sega one is pretty expensive/rare these days. It goes for like $20+ on it's own, but in a bundle it goes for cheap, so keep that in mind if you are looking to buy one! :)

No screen, and not all games work with it.

gamevet
08-08-2009, 04:02 PM
There was a Sega branded 4x Memory Card released, but the Sega one is pretty expensive/rare these days. It goes for like $20+ on it's own, but in a bundle it goes for cheap, so keep that in mind if you are looking to buy one! :)

No screen, and not all games work with it.

NFL2K1 would lose its save files using that device.

kool kitty89
08-08-2009, 09:13 PM
The LCD screen is cool in a "futuristic" type way but all in all its completely unnecessary if you don't play those little on the go games that come with most DC titles. I still like it because in some games there are animations that coincide with your movements. In Soul Calibur a little cartoon of your characters pops on the VMU at the start of every battle. Every time you swing your weapon the cartoon guy does it too. It was very cool. Especially back in 1999-2000

Yeah, and you'd still have a lot of that neat stuf had the screen been built into the controller rather than the memory cards, also the feature in some sports games to choose you play without your freind/opponent seeing.

Personally I think the controller was the only thing (besides the security problems) that really shoud have been addressed, DVD really wouldn't have been practical in the timeframe. I really think the DC controller should have been more like the Saturn's 3D pad, just add the analog triggers, remove the digital/analog switch (both now used simultaneously), and maybe make the analog stick a little stiffer. (some complain the 3D controller's is too low resistance, it's been too long since I played one to comment on this though)

Besides the VMU/memory thing, I think the controller probably should have had rumble built in. (particularly in leu of the DualShock)

TheEdge
08-09-2009, 10:48 AM
^ I noticed that the DC controller is a hit or miss with certain people. I've heard individuals talk about the DC controller like it was one of the best Sega controllers of all time and others who have trouble even playing the system because they dislike the controller so much.

IMO I think its an OK controller. I think that it needed 6 buttons instead of 4 and some pads on the triggers so they don't bite into your finger joints. Other than that it was very ergonomic. I think they just took the design of the Sega Saturn Knights controller and built on top of it because they felt like breaking away from older Sega models.

Chilly Willy
08-09-2009, 01:25 PM
I like how good their analog stick it. I've never seen such a precise stick on a console controller before. I like Sony controllers, but their sticks are sloppy. When I go to the stick calibration menu in my Doom port, the stick moves cleanly and snaps back to 80, 80 every time I let it go.

By the way, my DC port of Doom also now uses the VMU - the player status is displayed on the LCD so that you can play without the status bar on the screen. If someone wants to try it, you can get it here:

DCDoom-SW-CW-1.1.3.sbi (http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/2/3/2304902/DCDoom-SW-CW-1.1.3.sbi)

kool kitty89
08-09-2009, 09:43 PM
^ I noticed that the DC controller is a hit or miss with certain people. I've heard individuals talk about the DC controller like it was one of the best Sega controllers of all time and others who have trouble even playing the system because they dislike the controller so much.

IMO I think its an OK controller. I think that it needed 6 buttons instead of 4 and some pads on the triggers so they don't bite into your finger joints. Other than that it was very ergonomic. I think they just took the design of the Sega Saturn Knights controller and built on top of it because they felt like breaking away from older Sega models.

I think it's OK too, I never owned a DC, only played it a little at a freind's house, but played it a lot in store displays and found if fairly comfortable at the time. (granted I was ~11 then so I'm not sure how I'd like it now)
I do wish they'd kept the D-pad and button arrangement from the Nights controller though. (not sure about the analog stick)

For Sega controllers in general, I'm new to the Genesis, but I'm really liking the 3-button controller. (definitely more comfortable than the SNES pads, I've got the really early red letter 3-buttons as well, whcih some people seem to dislike for comfort)


I like how good their analog stick it. I've never seen such a precise stick on a console controller before. I like Sony controllers, but their sticks are sloppy. When I go to the stick calibration menu in my Doom port, the stick moves cleanly and snaps back to 80, 80 every time I let it go.

Have you ever tried the Nights controller? (for comparison) The only complaints I've heard about the 3D controller's stick is it being too loose, not enough resistance.
I don't remember having much trouble with the DC's stick, but I've heard complaints about it beeing too smoothe/slippery. (non rubberized and not textured enough or indented/cupped like the Saturn's)

Chilly Willy
08-09-2009, 11:38 PM
Have you ever tried the Nights controller? (for comparison) The only complaints I've heard about the 3D controller's stick is it being too loose, not enough resistance.

I've got one, but I have not much idea as to the accuracy as I have little more than Nights to play with it.


I don't remember having much trouble with the DC's stick, but I've heard complaints about it beeing too smoothe/slippery. (non rubberized and not textured enough or indented/cupped like the Saturn's)

I've not had that trouble, but I could see where people who get sweaty palms while playing might have trouble.

kool kitty89
08-10-2009, 12:08 AM
You know any games supporting the racing wheel will also work with the Nights/3D controller, right? Also, what do you think of the feel of the "stick" on the 3D controller? (both in terms of the shape and resistancd -ie the "too loose" issue)

runback22
08-10-2009, 09:35 AM
WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU, THE DREAMCAST IS MAKING TOO MUCH NOISE!!


What? Can you say that louder? The Dreamcast is too loud? I cant tell. My Xbox 360 has made me go deaf.....:daze:

TmEE
08-10-2009, 10:04 AM
I've got one, but I have not much idea as to the accuracy as I have little more than Nights to play with it.

Try some racing games, Sega Rally is a nice game to play with the 3D pad :)


I've not had that trouble, but I could see where people who get sweaty palms while playing might have trouble.

DC controller is my most loved controller, only inconvenience is caused by my sweaty hands...

TheEdge
08-10-2009, 10:38 AM
This weekend my friend and I played the crap out of Daytona USA and Tennis 2k2. After we were done I asked him what he thought of the DC and he said he was surprised the games looked as good as they did. People seem to have this misconception that the DC was an underpowered console when in reality it was just as good as the PS2 and light years a head of the N64 and PS1.

Deo
08-10-2009, 11:39 AM
Indeed the Dreamcast had some awesome games with amazing graphics like DOA2 and Tokyo Xtreme Racer 2.

Chilly Willy
08-10-2009, 01:45 PM
Try some racing games, Sega Rally is a nice game to play with the 3D pad :)

I would, but I don't have any yet. All the Saturn games I have are ones I got for free when my Dad closed his old video shop years back. He was going to toss a bunch of stuff, including a bunch of old rental games that I "rescued". Unfortunately, no race games were part of that.

kool kitty89
08-10-2009, 07:09 PM
This weekend my friend and I played the crap out of Daytona USA and Tennis 2k2. After we were done I asked him what he thought of the DC and he said he was surprised the games looked as good as they did. People seem to have this misconception that the DC was an underpowered console when in reality it was just as good as the PS2 and light years a head of the N64 and PS1.

Technically, I think it's a bit less powerful than the PS2 (plus there's less RAM too), but in terms of utilizing that power, they're complete opposites, with the DC being very freindly for developers and the PS2 being a pain in the ass. (kind of the reverse of the PlayStation and Saturn comparison in that respect)

TheEdge
08-10-2009, 08:01 PM
Technically, I think it's a bit less powerful than the PS2 (plus there's less RAM too), but in terms of utilizing that power, they're complete opposites, with the DC being very freindly for developers and the PS2 being a pain in the ass. (kind of the reverse of the PlayStation and Saturn comparison in that respect)

I would say they are practically the same because they have pluses and minuses in different attributes, that's all. Shenmue came out right after the DC was released and that was the most technically impressive game ever created. Just imagine if the DC got an official life span. Who knows what it could have been pushed to do.

kool kitty89
08-10-2009, 09:29 PM
I would say they are practically the same because they have pluses and minuses in different attributes, that's all. Shenmue came out right after the DC was released and that was the most technically impressive game ever created. Just imagine if the DC got an official life span. Who knows what it could have been pushed to do.

That's kind of part of my point, the DC was a lot easier to push, while the PS2 took a lot more work to really do its best. (hence, any hypothetical late DC games would not contrast nearly as much ith early DC games than early PS2 games do with late/current ones some early ones only looking a step above PS games)
Similar to the Playstation, the games that really pushed the hardware weren't astoundingly different than some of the more average/early examples. (the case for the Saturn being more like the PS2, with the most impressive 3D games, like Nights being a stark contrast to the average 3D Saturn game, or look at how far Shenmue got)

Chaotix
08-10-2009, 11:12 PM
I would, but I don't have any yet. All the Saturn games I have are ones I got for free when my Dad closed his old video shop years back. He was going to toss a bunch of stuff, including a bunch of old rental games that I "rescued". Unfortunately, no race games were part of that.

:shock: You don't have Daytona USA?!


Oh btw, did anyone see all the PAL Dreamcast prototypes on Ebay lately? I would have bought one, but I'm broke (just bought a Yamaha FM synth for those Genesis-like sounds ;) )

gamevet
08-10-2009, 11:19 PM
Technically, I think it's a bit less powerful than the PS2 (plus there's less RAM too), but in terms of utilizing that power, they're complete opposites, with the DC being very freindly for developers and the PS2 being a pain in the ass. (kind of the reverse of the PlayStation and Saturn comparison in that respect)

The DC was better at AA and texture mapping, but the PS2 could push more polygons and do better light sourcing.

TheEdge
08-13-2009, 01:17 PM
9/9/09 will not produce any major Sega events commemorating the Dreamcast launch of 9/9/99, but the company is thinking about the future of its last gaming console in one key way.

The head of Sega West, Mike Hayes, told me Wednesday that, despite the pride Sega has in the Dreamcast, it has no formal celebration to celebrate the 10th anniversary of its launch in September.

"Generally we won't be doing anything that's official," he said. The main reason is that Sega has reinvented itself as a software company. And it's important for us to focus on the other platforms that are alive and current."

"Informally, because there are people in the company who were involved in the Dreamcast launch, there will be celebrations," he said, "But as a company, publicly, that's going to be something we're going to be pretty low key about for obvious reasons. We're effectively a different company."

Hayes said that Sega has reinvented itself as a software company, which makes it more fitting to focus on other company's hardware. "It's not to disrespect the excellent system the Dreamcast was," he said, "Or the innovations that were done on it, which I think were probably a few years ahead of time in terms of the online application. I just think we as a company are multi-format and we want to talk about our first-party platform partners rather than when we were a first-party."

Dreamcast hardware may not the focus of any official Sega efforts, but Dreamcast software still has a future. Sega has aggressively distributed much of its older back catalog of games as digital downloads on home consoles, PC and portable machines. The Dreamcast line-up, comprised of bigger games, less easily brought to current platforms, is not going to be neglected, Hayes said. "I can't give you any details. Suffice to say, there's a lot of technical issues, a lot of licensing issues. But we are very keen to bring [them] to players in the way we've done with Genesis games. We want to do it, but it's hard work to get there. Hopefully we can build on that quite soon."

http://kotaku.com/5336532/sega-will-celebrate-dreamcasts-10th-anniversary-quietly


Sega disappoints again.....

Schwazilla
08-13-2009, 01:33 PM
I just got my dreamcast 2 days ago. Revision 0, 2 contollers, 2 vmus. $30

TheEdge
08-13-2009, 01:34 PM
I just got my dreamcast 2 days ago. Revision 0, 2 contollers, 2 vmus. $30

Congrats :!:

Tell us what you think of it. I always love hearing first impressions of systems.

cj iwakura
08-13-2009, 01:35 PM
Sega disappoints again.....

It's unfortunate, but not surprising. Though it would be epic if they did something like add Dreamcast games to the Virtual Console(yeah right).

TheEdge
08-13-2009, 01:38 PM
It's unfortunate, but not surprising. Though it would be epic if they did something like add Dreamcast games to the Virtual Console(yeah right).

That's funny that you say that because I wasn't surprised either but I was still disappointing for some reason. I was hoping that they would make a new DC game for the console that would push it to the limit and then port to everyone of the present day consoles.

That would have been nice......:cool:

Deo
08-13-2009, 01:41 PM
Yea that would be nice if they made something cool like Shenmue 3 with a ton of disks and required an entire VMU!

retrospiel
08-13-2009, 01:48 PM
Sega disappoints again.....

Not really:



Dreamcast hardware may not the focus of any official Sega efforts, but Dreamcast software still has a future. Sega has aggressively distributed much of its older back catalog of games as digital downloads on home consoles, PC and portable machines. The Dreamcast line-up, comprised of bigger games, less easily brought to current platforms, is not going to be neglected, Hayes said. "I can't give you any details. Suffice to say, there's a lot of technical issues, a lot of licensing issues. But we are very keen to bring [them] to players in the way we've done with Genesis games. We want to do it, but it's hard work to get there. Hopefully we can build on that quite soon."


A Dreamcast collection ? A Dreamcast handheld with twenty built-in games ? Dreamcast available via Virtual Console on Wii ? - What is he talking about ?

gamevet
08-13-2009, 01:54 PM
The Dreamcast line-up, comprised of bigger games, less easily brought to current platforms, is not going to be neglected, Hayes said. "I can't give you any details. Suffice to say, there's a lot of technical issues, a lot of licensing issues.

Translation: "We'd like to bring Daytona USA home to consoles via DLC, but we don't own the rights to the Daytona name." :(

retrospiel
08-13-2009, 02:00 PM
Similar situation as with Crazy Taxi and F355 which they sold to Acclaim, and Shenmue 2, Jet Set Radio Future, and whatever else they gave away to Microsoft.

mrbigreddog
08-13-2009, 02:07 PM
Install your games to the hard drive, you'll never need to spin a disc again. It's possible with the latest firmware :)

I was talkin about the when the Dreamcast reads disc.

gamegenie
08-24-2009, 11:51 AM
I just ebay purchased my first Dreamcast :D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250470414762

TheEdge
08-24-2009, 11:58 AM
congrats!

Give us a review of it when you get it.

retrospiel
08-24-2009, 12:45 PM
Congrats. - Don't expect anything from Sonic Shuffle though. It might look nice but it's a terrible game.

philiptwood
08-24-2009, 12:58 PM
That's not a bad find. A flea market Dreamcast can run about $10 to $15 that is if it even comes with two controlers and a TV hook-up cord. The games actually cost more then the system so that was a great buy.

gamegenie
09-02-2009, 08:40 AM
now that I own a Dreamcast and have been playing it's games. I can honestly say this was the best 6th generation game system that gamers stupidly let die.

This is coming from a person who was one of those gamers, I strongly stayed behind the PlayStation brand throughout PS1 and PS2 wishing the worst for Sega. I see now that Dreamcast games were a lot more enthralling to play than PS2 games.

so far I have played these games and have been overwhelmingly impressed:

Sonic Adventure - I thought having played Sonic Heroes on PS2 that I would be in for a disappointment here, boy was wrong. SA is much more easier, and fun to play than SH. I can see a lot of my free time will be used to figure out these vmu pet creations.

Spiderman - This game's worlds are bigger than Spiderman: Friend or Foe that I have on the 360. You can climb and crawl over everything. Amazing as they call him, this game is.

Power Stone 2 - This is one godly motherf'n game, my first character played is Pete, and I never played a fighting game like this, it is FUN. I got Pete all the way to the boss in 1 vs 1 mode, but didn't finish. This game seem like it will be a blast with additional players to play with through the levels.

Soul Calibur - Never really was a fan of the serious. Remember being surprised a decade ago NAMCO went over to enemy lines to make this game for DC during the time when Tekken 3 was a smash hit for PS. My first character played is the guy on the cover Kilik and this game was easy to learn and not bad at all in terms of move juggling and comboing, I beat it and unlocked my first hidden character.

Jet Grind Radio - This game is uniquely awesome, I haven't played into it yet, only past the learning stages. It looks amazing graphically and through it's unique game play.

Games I'm going to try next

Space Channel 5

Crazy Taxi

NFL 2k1

NBA Show Time

Sonic Shuffle

retrospiel
09-02-2009, 11:41 AM
If you want to be really impressed, buy a Dreamcast VGA adapter (http://shop.ebay.com/?_nkw=vga+dreamcast) and plug it into your HDTV or CRT PC monitor.

gamevet
09-02-2009, 12:08 PM
He speaks wisely.

TheEdge
09-02-2009, 12:29 PM
now that I own a Dreamcast and have been playing it's games. I can honestly say this was the best 6th generation game system that gamers stupidly let die.

This is coming from a person who was one of those gamers, I strongly stayed behind the PlayStation brand throughout PS1 and PS2 wishing the worst for Sega. I see now that Dreamcast games were a lot more enthralling to play than PS2 games.

so far I have played these games and have been overwhelmingly impressed:

Sonic Adventure - I thought having played Sonic Heroes on PS2 that I would be in for a disappointment here, boy was wrong. SA is much more easier, and fun to play than SH. I can see a lot of my free time will be used to figure out these vmu pet creations.

Spiderman - This game's worlds are bigger than Spiderman: Friend or Foe that I have on the 360. You can climb and crawl over everything. Amazing as they call him, this game is.

Power Stone 2 - This is one godly motherf'n game, my first character played is Pete, and I never played a fighting game like this, it is FUN. I got Pete all the way to the boss in 1 vs 1 mode, but didn't finish. This game seem like it will be a blast with additional players to play with through the levels.

Soul Calibur - Never really was a fan of the serious. Remember being surprised a decade ago NAMCO went over to enemy lines to make this game for DC during the time when Tekken 3 was a smash hit for PS. My first character played is the guy on the cover Kilik and this game was easy to learn and not bad at all in terms of move juggling and comboing, I beat it and unlocked my first hidden character.

Jet Grind Radio - This game is uniquely awesome, I haven't played into it yet, only past the learning stages. It looks amazing graphically and through it's unique game play.

Games I'm going to try next

Space Channel 5

Crazy Taxi

NFL 2k1

NBA Show Time

Sonic Shuffle


Wow, great review of the console. Its jammed packed with good software so I'm sure you will have no trouble finding more great hits. :cool:

WarmSignal
09-02-2009, 01:06 PM
I saw an add in the paper for a Dreamcast, 4 controllers, 50+ games for $120. I talked him down to $100, figured I'd buy the lot for the games and pawn the console, but when I went to check it out 80% had no cases and were in a cd book. I passed. There were some good titles in there too.

Gentlegamer
09-02-2009, 09:01 PM
I just got a black Sega Sports Dreamcast, just in time for the 10th anniversary. I'll be doing a Dreamcast marathon like I did with Genesis (which is also ongoing).

Racketboy has some cool DC fan art posted: http://www.racketboy.com/retro/2009/09/a-fan-art-tribute-to-the-sega-dreamcast.html

gamevet
09-02-2009, 10:42 PM
I voted for "Gum" and "It's all in the Stone."

Nice artwork!

gamegenie
09-03-2009, 12:30 AM
also Virtua Fighter 3tb looks like it should have been launched for Sega Saturn, it doesn't graphically show off the Dreamcast's power like Soul Calibur.

jerry coeurl
09-03-2009, 02:23 AM
This is coming from a person who was one of those gamers, I strongly stayed behind the PlayStation brand throughout PS1 and PS2 wishing the worst for Sega.

I never understand this. Why do people wish death on a company just because they're supporting a different one?

Knuckle Duster
09-03-2009, 02:52 AM
I never understand this. Why do people wish death on a company just because they're supporting a different one?

Pompous fanboy elitism. They feel the other competitive company has the 'Potential' to undermine their invested time/money/faith in the product they support by somehow releasing industry-changing must-have software; Especially if that company has an equally vocal fanbase.

Throw in the fact that video games became a largely anti-social experience for the most part since the 8-bit revival later relied on single player gameplay software, instead of only traditional competitive 2 player experiences or high-scores. It becomes something to think about at the least.

It's easier to say that it's simply human nature to be 'stupid'.

17daysolderthannes
09-03-2009, 03:14 AM
now that I own a Dreamcast and have been playing it's games. I can honestly say this was the best 6th generation game system that gamers stupidly let die.



That part of history is widely misreported. The DC was a runaway success, Sega had to kill it because of piracy. Once 3rd party developers found out you could rip a game through the broadband adapter and burn it on a CD-R and play it on an unmodified DC, they stopped all development for the system. It's a huge shame, the DC was the biggest bargain by far and really wasn't too far behind the other systems. It was first to be online, it had 4 player slots, it was compact, it just rocked. Even by today's standards DC games tend to have more personality than most of the field. This is why you always hear people say "man, I always loved the DC, I have no idea why they stopped making it." I have never found one person that said "fuck the Dreamcast, I never liked that system." Even the PS2 DVD player arguement is BS because the Gamecube did alright and it was much more expensive than the DC and really didn't have any noticeable improvements.

Cornugon
09-03-2009, 03:26 AM
That part of history is widely misreported. The DC was a runaway success, Sega had to kill it because of piracy. Once 3rd party developers found out you could rip a game through the broadband adapter and burn it on a CD-R and play it on an unmodified DC, they stopped all development for the system. It's a huge shame, the DC was the biggest bargain by far and really wasn't too far behind the other systems. It was first to be online, it had 4 player slots, it was compact, it just rocked. Even by today's standards DC games tend to have more personality than most of the field. This is why you always hear people say "man, I always loved the DC, I have no idea why they stopped making it." I have never found one person that said "fuck the Dreamcast, I never liked that system." Even the PS2 DVD player arguement is BS because the Gamecube did alright and it was much more expensive than the DC and really didn't have any noticeable improvements.

Yeah most people who knew the Dreamcast are still positive about the Dreamcast.
I always thought the DVD-player was a bullshit arguement, just like the BluRay now.
I mean you buy a console to play games, not to watch movies with it (remember the CDI...). That's just like buying a laptop and put it on a permanent place. Or buying an Apple for gaming.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 03:29 AM
I love the DC and all, but there's no way it could run a game like Rogue Squadron 2, or Metroid Prime. The GC was just as capable as an Xbox, when it came to graphics.

retrospiel
09-03-2009, 04:47 AM
Well, we'll never know what it was capable of.



That part of history is widely misreported. The DC was a runaway success, Sega had to kill it because of piracy.

As far as I know, Microsoft's Peter Moore decided it would be better if Sega was a software company:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2008/sep/11/gamesinterviews.microsoft1


So on January 31 2001 we said Sega is leaving hardware – somehow I got to make that call, not the Japanese. I had to fire a lot of people, it was not a pleasant day.

He did not only fire a lot of people, he essentially ruined the company - both financially and artistically. It would have been the end of Sega if not for Isao Okawa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isao_Okawa) who donated the company $695 million dollars.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 05:29 AM
Well, we'll never know what it was capable of.

The DC could match (exceed in some cases) what the PS2 was doing, but I doubt it could pull off the 15 million polygons being pushed by the GC with Rogue Squadron 2. Even Nintendo didn't think the GC was capable of 15 million polygons.





As far as I know, Microsoft's Peter Moore decided it would be better if Sega was a software company:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2008/sep/11/gamesinterviews.microsoft1



He did not only fire a lot of people, he essentially ruined the company - both financially and artistically. It would have been the end of Sega if not for Isao Okawa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isao_Okawa) who donated the company $695 million dollars.

The company was already in a financial tailspin. Japan didn't have the balls to compete with its Western division, and they sure didn't have it when it came time to cut the losses.

kool kitty89
09-03-2009, 05:46 AM
And I beleive Okawa had been pushing for going sofware only for a while by that time. (while the DC was still under development I beleive)

17days, wasn't the piracy issue more a scare to developers than a real threat? Sure CD burners were becoming common by then, but availability isn't like it is now with widespread fast broadband, so actually obtaining the pirated content would be more difficult. (either tedious download times or actually buying a bootleg copy) This latter issue (bootlegs) would probably be the bigger proble at that time, still a lot more limited than downloading. Plus larger games had to be hacked and condensed down to CD capacity.
Adding protection after the fact could have helped to some extent, but Sega was a bit slow to do this.

I also seem to remember that the GD-ROM format is significantly different than standard CD-ROM (not just density but also the manner in which it's read). So, Sega had to specifically allow games to also run from CDs. (I can't remember why they did this)
So they could have only allowed CDs to be read for audio CDs (I can't remember if the DC did VCDs).

Iron Lizard
09-03-2009, 05:50 AM
I didn't know anyone burning discs for DC until after its death.

Knuckle Duster
09-03-2009, 06:05 AM
I also seem to remember that the GD-ROM format is significantly different than standard CD-ROM (not just density but also the manner in which it's read). So, Sega had to specifically allow games to also run from CDs. (I can't remember why they did this)
So they could have only allowed CDs to be read for audio CDs (I can't remember if the DC did VCDs).

IIRC, For ease of development, developers were given Dreamcast-Devkits with CDRom boot code in the system's bios/firmware to make creating software 'easier', and Sega never removed the functionality with the production units. Shipping the same Bios to the public.

It might have been a compatibility pipe-dream with supporting possible cross platform Windows CE stuff with PC's.

Cornugon
09-03-2009, 06:54 AM
I thought the last/third revision Dreamcast (Japan only?) couldn't read recordables?

Iron Lizard
09-03-2009, 07:01 AM
Some of the later models cannot.

retrospiel
09-03-2009, 07:15 AM
Sega never removed the functionality with the production units. Shipping the same Bios to the public.

Nah, it's really a hack, an exploit using the MIL-CD boot code.



I didn't know anyone burning discs for DC until after its death.

Same here.



And I beleive Okawa had been pushing for going sofware only for a while by that time. (while the DC was still under development I beleive)

No, from what I've read Okawa even fincanced Dreamcast / NAOMI hardware.



Japan didn't have the balls to compete with its Western division, and they sure didn't have it when it came time to cut the losses.

The way I remember it, the Dreamcast's discontinuation came totally out of nowhere. They anounced the death of Dreamcast in January 2001 before Phantasy Star Online was even shipped.

It was a big 'fuck you' to employees, customers and third party developers. Cutting the losses would have meant just that: to cut losses where possible, not to ruin the company by discontinuing the only thing that generated money (Dreamcast / NAOMI).

Once the news was out there nothing could be done to stop the fall (aside of Okawa's donation).

It's interesting that SOJ kept on producing NAOMI and Dreamcast games unitl 2003/2004 (Puyo Puyo Fever), and publishing Dreamcast games by small independent developers until early 2007.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 09:55 AM
The way I remember it, the Dreamcast's discontinuation came totally out of nowhere. They anounced the death of Dreamcast in January 2001 before Phantasy Star Online was even shipped.

I don't believe it was announced that early. Phantasy Star Online was one of the key titles to getting Sega Net going for the DC. Perhaps it was announced when Sega was releasing Phantasy Star Online ver. 2. Sega probably figured out people didn't want to pay monthly subscription fees for PSO Ver. 2 and NFL2K2 and realized they weren't going to recoup the money they'd invested in the online service.




It was a big 'fuck you' to employees, customers and third party developers. Cutting the losses would have meant just that: to cut losses where possible, not to ruin the company by discontinuing the only thing that generated money (Dreamcast / NAOMI).

I don't believe the DC was generating money though. I remember constantly hearing reports about Sega posting losses in the 100s of millions. Sega pretty much took the losses by clearing out the overhead, so they could write it off.

They even had to sell the one developer that created the only million seller on the DC (NFL2K1), with Visual Concepts going to Take-2 in 2005.


Once the news was out there nothing could be done to stop the fall (aside of Okawa's donation).

It's interesting that SOJ kept on producing NAOMI and Dreamcast games unitl 2003/2004 (Puyo Puyo Fever), and publishing Dreamcast games by small independent developers until early 2007.

It's one thing to publish titles, but to keep selling hardware that wasn't profitable would have put Sega completely out of business. They weren't making a dime off the hardware. It would be interesting to know just how much it did cost Sega to assemble a DC.

Cornugon
09-03-2009, 10:02 AM
It's one thing to publish titles, but to keep selling hardware that wasn't profitable would have put Sega completely out of business.
Maybe that would've been for the better, since aside from Condemned they haven't really developed/published very interesting titles, as far as I know. They even went more the Nintendo way of milking out a popular franchise (Sonic).

jesus.arnold
09-03-2009, 10:09 AM
The Dreamcast died because Sega were already in masses of debt from the Saturn era (as well as the fact that on top of that it takes a lot of money to design a console anyway) and they couldn't clear the debt fast enough, also after the PS2 came out sales dropped significantly if I remember rightly.

Piracy could never completely kill a console on it's own in those days as it wasn't widespread enough, remember that the DS is ten times easier to pirate games for than the Dreamcast ever was and it's now a time where anyone can find, download and play these games, I don't see the DS being killed off by it.

TheEdge
09-03-2009, 11:05 AM
What orphaned the Dreamcast (I say orphaned because games are still developed for it) is not just one or two issues after its release. It was a culmination of numerous events from beginning to the end of Sega's hardware history. Mainly the era from the Genesis, 32X, Nomad, and Saturn, that led up to the Dreamcast's demise.

Like JesusArnold and others have said regarding discussions of DVD playability, piracy, and Peter Moore's decisions is IMO irrelevant. What is relevant is that they supported the Genesis way after its death, had numerous hardware selling problems, infurated customers, and were financially irresponsible.

These led to Dreamcast becoming an orphan of a console. If you don't believe be just look at the PS3. That thing is a HUGE failure. It looks and plays great but people would probably by a Sega 32X over a PS3 if they re-released them side by side. How does the PS3 survive? Well because Sony pays to keep it afloat. Problem is that Sega couldn't do this, they had nothing left in their pockets from previous follies and had to cut the Dreamcast lose. This is what I believe to be the real reason for Sega's hardware demise.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 11:15 AM
The 360 is just as much of a failure as the PS3 is. We're talking about a difference of maybe 4 million units between the 2 consoles and the 360 had a year head start. If MS didn't have people paying $50 a year for LIVE and a ton of DLC, they probably would have abandoned the hardware like they did with the original Xbox.

TheEdge
09-03-2009, 11:19 AM
The 360 is just as much of a failure as the PS3 is. We're talking about a difference of maybe 4 million units between the 2 consoles and the 360 had a year head start. If MS didn't have people paying $50 a year for LIVE and a ton of DLC, they probably would have abandoned the hardware like they did with the original Xbox.

I just said PS3 because its the most well known failure of this generation. Most people would argue about the "Success" of the XBOX360 but I agree with you that its a total and utter failure like the rest of the console of this generation. All of them can be thrown off a bridge for all I care but the point of the matter is that all these consoles can be kept afloat in bad times with the deep pockets from their companies. Sega couldn't do this because of their past financial mistakes.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 11:31 AM
Yeah, because Sega had 3 (4) complete failures to overcome before the DC was even released. The big difference is that the PS3 and 360 will manage to sell enough units to actually earn enough profit to recoup the losses. Sega had to cut and run with the Saturn and Dreamcast, because they'd already got to the point where they couldn't afford any losses at all.

TheEdge
09-03-2009, 11:37 AM
Yeah, because Sega had 3 (4) complete failures to overcome before the DC was even released. The big difference is that the PS3 and 360 will manage to sell enough units to actually earn enough profit to recoup the losses. Sega had to cut and run with the Saturn and Dreamcast, because they'd already got to the point where they couldn't afford any losses at all.

Yes, but cutting and running was their mode of operation for a very long time. I think the money trouble started way before the Dreamcast was even on the drawing board. By the time the Dreamcast was on shelves it was do or die and the constant years of sticking it to developers and customers really caught up to them. People had had PS1 logically just went to PS2. If Saturn was handled better it probably would have been the other way around.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 11:41 AM
Yes, but cutting and running was their mode of operation for a very long time. I think the money trouble started way before the Dreamcast was even on the drawing board.

Yeah, the money problems started back with the Sega CD, continued with the 32X and by the time the Saturn arrived, they were pretty much out of cash. It's amazing they were even able to launch the Dreamcast, let alone sell it for 2.5 years.

I believe that was the original point I had made. Sega was out of cash and had to cut and run from the DC, just like they did with the Saturn and 32X.

TheEdge
09-03-2009, 11:44 AM
Yep, I've noticed a lot of people get bogged down in the whole DVD player / Piracy Debate but I see it from the past to present. Only a miracle could have saved them. I will say however they put on a great show. The DC's release was really impressive and the hardware is great. Hopefully one day we can get Console that matches the greatness of the DC.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 11:51 AM
I don't recall where I had read it, but SOJ pretty much told Sega of America that they would have to sell more than 4 million consoles (before the 2001 announcement was made) if they were to continue selling it. Sega had some X amount of consoles they needed to sell, or bust.

retrospiel
09-03-2009, 12:37 PM
So, SOJ telling SOA to sell 4 million consoles meant that they should publically announce the discontinuation of Dreamcast (and thus NAOMI) when they sold 'just' 3,5 million units ?

gamevet
09-03-2009, 12:48 PM
So, SOJ telling SOA to sell 4 million consoles meant that they should publically announce the discontinuation of Dreamcast (and thus NAOMI) when they sold 'just' 3,5 million units ?


Here it is:

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-index.php?page=SegaBase+Dreamcast+p4&bl=y&PHPSESSID=lffelampq8qng8q0uq2r7bmg77



1 June 2000 was the most critical date in the projected market life cyle of the Dreamcast. According to a report authored by the Japanese branch of Salomon Smith Barney originally issued on 5 January 2000, this was Dreamcast's "make or break" date. By 1 June 2000, Sega should have recouped all of its initial US$600 million investment in the system, having sold all 2 million units of its initial production run for North America and now selling approximately 1 million consoles per month in all major markets from this point forward. In plain language, this meant that Sega should have started turning a profit on Dreamcast after 1 June 2000. Did that happen? No. Was Sega even close? No. Sega should have had about a 20% market share by this point; instead, it was wallowing along at 14% with no sign of gaining any significant ground any time soon. There was not a single Dreamcast title in the top ten titles on anybody's software chart worldwide save in the United Kingdom, where for some perverse reason the Dreamcast port of Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? was selling exceptionally strong. People liked the console and they liked the games, but most preferred to stick with what they had and save their money for the consoles to come after Dreamcast. There was no choice for Sega. It was losing money, but it couldn't wait and continue to maintain the high price of Dreamcast any longer. In both Europe and the U.S., Sega made preparations to cut the price of the Dreamcast by 25%. Isao Okawa and everyone else at Sega had hoped that there was an outside chance of the company making some kind of profit off of its Dreamcast gamble. It never had, and now it never would.


http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-index.php?page=SegaBase+Dreamcast+p5&bl=y


After he assumed the helm of Sega of America, a self-assured Peter Moore made the long trip to Japan to see his new masters. His boss, Sega CEO Isao Okawa, wasted no time in letting him know just how precarious the stakes were. While the full scope of everything that was said between the two is not and will probably never be known (due to non-disclosure agreements), two important facts have come to light about what happened during that meeting. Moore left Japan with US$500 million in his pocket for Sega of America and a firm command from Okawa: Make the Dreamcast a success in North America ... or else. "Or else what?" the uniformed might ask. "Did this mean Okawa was going to can Moore if he couldn't pull off the Dreamcast gamble, given that the odds were as long as they were?" No, not at all; in fact, quite the contrary. Okawa had given Moore what amounted to Sega's last cash reserves. The Dreamcast had bombed in Japan and was, in Okawa's opinion, not doing well in every other worldwide market save one.


Dreamcast had proven to be a bigger than expected success in the United States and was, by any reasonable estimate, poised to take the #2 spot on the market away from Nintendo by Christmas 2001. If there was any hope at all that Okawa could pull off the Dreamcast gamble, his best bet was North America - where the odds were the shortest and the market most favorable to his designs. If he succeeded, then Sega could stay in the console business for at least another year, clean out its hardware back inventories, and be in a better position to remake the company once the time came If not ... well, at least Sega would beyond all doubt have its much-soiled reputation back in the one market that really mattered. Moore's job was not on the line and he knew that. It was the very existence of Sega itself that was at stake. The year 2000 would have to be "the year of the Dreamcast" insofar as the United States videogame market was concerned. Sega would not be able to survive if it wasn't. Armed with this knowledge and the last of Sega's cash reserves, a determined Peter Moore went back home, faced with the daunting task of single-handedly saving Sega before all was lost.

jesus.arnold
09-03-2009, 01:15 PM
I don't think that Sega quite needed a miracle, I think they just needed consumers to recognise the Dreamcast's obvious quality, the machine certainly deserved to sell a hell of a lot more than what it did.

The way I see it is that if the Dreamcast couldn't save Sega in those circumstances then absolutely nothing could've, they just no longer had the funds to advertise and hype and the respect of mainstream gamers anymore.

EDIT: One last thing, they didn't understand the way hyping had changed either, whilst Sony were making up wild claims of what features the PS2 was going to have (most of which never happened, or happened years after they said they would), and showing pre-rendered movies of games that probably hadn't even been started yet, Sega were trying to show games which did exist, and talk about features they did intend to implement. Sega was trying to fight Sony's fantasy with their reality :lol:

snume
09-03-2009, 02:15 PM
The 360 is just as much of a failure as the PS3 is. We're talking about a difference of maybe 4 million units between the 2 consoles and the 360 had a year head start. If MS didn't have people paying $50 a year for LIVE and a ton of DLC, they probably would have abandoned the hardware like they did with the original Xbox.

It's actually 8 milliion units worldwide - 9 million ahead in the US and 1.5 million in Europe and behind 2 million in Japan. Say what you will about Live and it's cost (I'm a satisfied subscriber since my 1st Gen Xbox) that is money that they can pour into their system that Sony has had to put in out of profits.

Dirt Ball Gamer
09-03-2009, 03:44 PM
I remember I got a job working at Mc Donald's a month or two before the dreamcast was released. I saved up my cash and bought one and then quit the job immediately. The machine blew my mind. I remember playing the hell out of the demo disc at first, especially the bass fishing demo. One of my best memories is a huge party we had at my house with lots of beer etc and playing house of the dead 2, nba 2k, and nfl 2k on our old school big screen for hours. It was a pretty awesome party.

retrospiel
09-03-2009, 05:40 PM
Here it is

I don't see where Okawa told Moore to publically announce the discontinuation of Dreamcast and thus ruin the company.

Also, one million consoles a month is a totally ridiculous value. Even 2600, NES, PS1 or PS2 rarley ever sold 1 million a month per market, if ever. - This incredibly biased and often badly researched article gets way too much recognition for the few good facts it provides.

17daysolderthannes
09-03-2009, 07:14 PM
17days, wasn't the piracy issue more a scare to developers than a real threat?


I didn't know anyone burning discs for DC until after its death.

Yeah, but look at the PSP. Sony DIDN'T pull the plug and software sales are almost nil for that thing. It's not because people aren't playing Sony games, its because they are all being pirated. The entire time I worked at Play N Trade I don't think we sold more than a dozen or two PSP games. Remember the difference in viewpoints as well. When you're a programmer, you are like "OMFG, this is way too easy, we're fucked!" whereas I can spend hours trying to explain how to burn a DC game to a layman.

Look at ROMs even. I would say a solid half or more of people that play retro games either don't know about ROMs or look at them like they're a rubik's cube to obtain them and get them working. ROMs are so incredibly easy to obtain that I could get any game you can mention spare a few über rare prototypes that only 1 person in the world has in a matter of a few seconds from about 15 or more major ROM sites. Give me a day or two and I can download you a complete set via bittorrent. Still, people get intimidated and would rather slide a cartridge into a slot and push power and be done with it.

Karakasa-Obake
09-03-2009, 07:22 PM
Yeah, but look at the PSP. Sony DIDN'T pull the plug and software sales are almost nil for that thing. It's not because people aren't playing Sony games, its because they are all being pirated. The entire time I worked at Play N Trade I don't think we sold more than a dozen or two PSP games. Remember the difference in viewpoints as well. When you're a programmer, you are like "OMFG, this is way too easy, we're fucked!" whereas I can spend hours trying to explain how to burn a DC game to a layman.

Look at ROMs even. I would say a solid half or more of people that play retro games either don't know about ROMs or look at them like they're a rubik's cube to obtain them and get them working. ROMs are so incredibly easy to obtain that I could get any game you can mention spare a few über rare prototypes that only 1 person in the world has in a matter of a few seconds from about 15 or more major ROM sites. Give me a day or two and I can download you a complete set via bittorrent. Still, people get intimidated and would rather slide a cartridge into a slot and push power and be done with it.
I think part of that is that people would rather see and feel the game. Sure, I use ROMS to see if I want a game. I would just rather have the game though.

kool kitty89
09-03-2009, 07:49 PM
I don't believe the DC was generating money though. I remember constantly hearing reports about Sega posting losses in the 100s of millions. Sega pretty much took the losses by clearing out the overhead, so they could write it off.

They even had to sell the one developer that created the only million seller on the DC (NFL2K1), with Visual Concepts going to Take-2 in 2005.



It's one thing to publish titles, but to keep selling hardware that wasn't profitable would have put Sega completely out of business. They weren't making a dime off the hardware. It would be interesting to know just how much it did cost Sega to assemble a DC.


Yeah, the money problems started back with the Sega CD, continued with the 32X and by the time the Saturn arrived, they were pretty much out of cash. It's amazing they were even able to launch the Dreamcast, let alone sell it for 2.5 years.

I believe that was the original point I had made. Sega was out of cash and had to cut and run from the DC, just like they did with the Saturn and 32X.

I agree, though perhaps Moore could have handled the matter a bit more gracefully. (though at least he seems to have managed the discontinuation a lot better than Stolar did with the Saturn announcement)

In any case, what I wonder is, not if they would have taken a loss with continuing DC support, but whether they would have been hurt less than they were by canceling it. Following through in conservative a manner as possible, but not "cutting and running" which hurt their relations with customers, fellow developers, and the industry in general.


Yeah, because Sega had 3 (4) complete failures to overcome before the DC was even released.

What was the 4th? (the SG-1000? or do you mean Nomad -if you include it separate from the Genesis/MD)

retrospiel
09-03-2009, 08:20 PM
I see only 1 failure (32X) and two cases of terrible marketing (Saturn, SCD ...okay, and Nomad/CDX/X'eye if you count those as separate consoles).



at least he seems to have managed the discontinuation a lot better than Stolar did with the Saturn announcement

Well, yeah, he got a pretty nice job as head of Microsoft's Xbox department.

- I don't get it. Here we have a guy that made a mistake by hinting at the fact that they were indeed working on a new console at a time when they were about to enter the third (3rd) holiday season in a row without being able to afford any advertisment whatsoever, and then a guy responsible for the end of Sega as we know it, but somehow Stolar still is the idíot to hate? I don't get it.

jesus.arnold
09-03-2009, 08:42 PM
Did the Sega CD make money? I've heard the thing sold like 6 million odd, but I think most of the sales were at the begginning of it's lifespan.

17daysolderthannes
09-03-2009, 08:43 PM
I think part of that is that people would rather see and feel the game. Sure, I use ROMS to see if I want a game. I would just rather have the game though.

That's about 1% though, 99% of people I know just want to play the game, they don't really care if they can touch it and look at it on a shelf.

Diosoth
09-03-2009, 09:11 PM
That's about 1% though, 99% of people I know just want to play the game, they don't really care if they can touch it and look at it on a shelf.

This coming from the idiot who believes that most game players prefer to bootleg instead of buying games. How the FUCK could you work in a game store and tell me that most people bootleg? Or was all that you posted about your former employer nothing but genuine bullshit to cover up your incompetence?

I'd say only about 15%-20% of gamers worldwide routinely bootleg and many of them only go for older stuff. Most piracy takes place in Korea, China and Russia, which is typical for communist nations as copyrights hold no meaning, being a function of capitalism. You also have secondary piracy in S. America and parts of Europe.

If piracy was as rampant as you claimed, every game company on this planet would have folded years ago.

I don't mind pirating a game. Even if I buy it, it will be used and the company sees no money either way. I'm also on a limited budget but I'm not going to justify it with your BS morality- I'm just greedy. But I still buy games for my collection... I even own Sonic Chronicles, depsite my opinion that the game is total shit and that Bioware are a bunch of total assholes.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 09:12 PM
It's actually 8 milliion units worldwide - 9 million ahead in the US and 1.5 million in Europe and behind 2 million in Japan. Say what you will about Live and it's cost (I'm a satisfied subscriber since my 1st Gen Xbox) that is money that they can pour into their system that Sony has had to put in out of profits.


I'm not dogging on LIVE. I'm just pointing out that without LIVE and DLC, the 360 is a money pit for MS. I happen to like both consoles and I'd be hard pressed to choose one over the other if I could only keep one.

It should also be noted, that the PS3 has sold 20 million units in a shorter time-span than it took the 360.


http://news.vgchartz.com/news.php?id=2954



I don't see where Okawa told Moore to publically announce the discontinuation of Dreamcast and thus ruin the company.

Also, one million consoles a month is a totally ridiculous value. Even 2600, NES, PS1 or PS2 rarley ever sold 1 million a month per market, if ever. - This incredibly biased and often badly researched article gets way too much recognition for the few good facts it provides.

This is one of many sources.

I'd actually read somewhere else that Sega was looking for a certain number of DCs to be sold, or they were pulling the plug. It's probably in an old Next-Gen magazine I have sitting on my bookshelf at home. Or maybe it's in "The Ultimate Gaming History" book we talked about in another thread.



I see only 1 failure (32X) and two cases of terrible marketing (Saturn, SCD ...okay, and Nomad/CDX/X'eye if you count those as separate consoles).

The Saturn was not profitable. Stolar may have prematurely announced that the Saturn was not Sega's future, but it was spurred on with the belief that the DC was coming sooner and the fact that Sega was losing too much money per unit sold.

I doubt the Sega CD selling 6 million units would be seen as a profitable product. Especially when Sega drops the price (North America) from $300 to $99 within a year and a half. I can't imagine that Sega found a way to reduce the price of manufacturing a Sega CD by 66% within that timeframe, maybe they did?

I don't know how profitable (ll million sold) the Gamegear was, but I do know I saw a ton of titles and the system itself in bargain bins 3 to 4 years after its release. There's no way Sega made much money, when its product is getting dumped like Atari 2600 cartridges. Maybe the system generated a few million in profit for Sega, but that's not what most would call a success. I can't imagine that it did, considering how many millions of $ Sega pumped out to advertise the system on national television and magazine ads.

retrospiel
09-03-2009, 09:34 PM
Game Gear was a moderate success in Japan but also [parts of] Europe. I think the same could be said about the US but I got no idea, really.

One thing I got still ringing in my ear from the part you've quoted of that article from Eidolonn's Inn is the part where Dreamcast "bombed in Japan": It obviously might not have been as successful as they had hoped but they did sell a good number of units. I think there's a huge difference between having a solid market share with a good games sold per system ratio on one hand and having a hardware that "totally bombed" on the other (see 32x). Sega managed to grow even during Nintendo's Famicom era with their SG-1000 hardware and variants (including Mark III and Master System), and they could have done the same during the PS2 era.

Dreamcast's end is especially bítter if you consider that both Xbox and GC didn't sell any better.

Knuckle Duster
09-03-2009, 09:42 PM
This coming from the idiot who believes that most game players prefer to bootleg instead of buying games. How the FUCK could you work in a game store and tell me that most people bootleg? Or was all that you posted about your former employer nothing but genuine bullshit to cover up your incompetence?

I'd say only about 15%-20% of gamers worldwide routinely bootleg and many of them only go for older stuff. Most piracy takes place in Korea, China and Russia, which is typical for communist nations as copyrights hold no meaning, being a function of capitalism. You also have secondary piracy in S. America and parts of Europe.

If piracy was as rampant as you claimed, every game company on this planet would have folded years ago.

I don't mind pirating a game. Even if I buy it, it will be used and the company sees no money either way. I'm also on a limited budget but I'm not going to justify it with your BS morality- I'm just greedy. But I still buy games for my collection... I even own Sonic Chronicles, depsite my opinion that the game is total shit and that Bioware are a bunch of total assholes.

It's a sad denial when you honestly believe that 'Anybody' with the means to get 'Something for Nothing' won't indulge in it, vocally or not.

Especially in economically turbulent times, or in generally poor areas.

You're the idiot here Diosoth, tagging your personal opinion or experience to the end of your morality driven rhetoric doesn't summarize or single out any basic point that would say anything other than how much 'You don't know shit' about 'People.'

Troll harder, asshole.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 09:55 PM
One thing I got still ringing in my ear from the part you've quoted of that article from Eidolonn's Inn is the part where Dreamcast "bombed in Japan": It obviously might not have been as successful as they had hoped but they did sell a good number of units.

I believe Japan was the worst selling region for the console. The DC had sold over 2.5 million units in North America, when the announcement was made of its discontinuation. I believe the DC in Japan had barely sold 1.5 million (by March 2001) and it had a big head start there.


Dreamcast's end is especially bítter if you consider that both Xbox and GC didn't sell any better.


The XBox sold over 25 million units, while the GC sold around 22 million. The DC wasn't even close, at just a little over 10 million units putting it just about even with the Saturn. The last 2 million units were the excess inventory that was sold off, after the announced discontinuation of the DC.

Xbox numbers (http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=14535)

Knuckle Duster
09-03-2009, 09:59 PM
Seriously, This is a dead horse.

17days basically states the truth, and here's how I see it here:

People like to play games, not worry about 'how they get games', since real life itself usually has more important things to worry about, financially or otherwise. If piracy is readily available, sure, they'd probably go for it for lack of 'FUD' from the manufacturers.

That was his point. It's "Not an Issue" to most.

Only hardcore gamers who support the industry, collectors, software engineers, and Retarded Self Righteous Assholes, seem to care about this issue when it's raised.

The self righteous seem to think that their morally charged views should be forced on the issue pertaining to others, which essentially boils off their point all together, regardless of how logical or 'meaningful' it is.

Fuck off, Diosoth. Nobody likes trolls up to their ears in bullshit & condescending preaching, regardless of the topic.

jesus.arnold
09-03-2009, 11:03 PM
The Game Gear must've made Sega a good amount of money, for one thing it was just re-using the Master System hardware and a lot of it's catalogue not to mention the fact that i'm pretty sure it was quite expensive compared to the competition. It's games being in bargain bins means literally nothing, PS2 games are in bargain bins these days and that console could hardly be seen as a failure.


People like to play games, not worry about 'how they get games', since real life itself usually has more important things to worry about, financially or otherwise. If piracy is readily available, sure, they'd probably go for it for lack of 'FUD' from the manufacturers.

Only hardcore gamers who support the industry, collectors, software engineers, and Retarded Self Righteous Assholes, seem to care about this issue when it's raised.I'm not sure which issue you're specifically debating, but most certainly those who pirate games are in the minority.

The most important and probably largest demographic of mainstream gamers are those who are too lazy to muck about with learning how to download and burn games, many of which take it for granted that the process is much more difficult than it actually is.

As you said most people have "more important things to worry about" than to use their spare time at home from work at the weekends learning about how to burn games for their system (and as I said earlier people usually take it that it's probably very complex) and sit waiting for a download, they'll just see a game in a shop that looks cool or that they've heard about from someone else and buy it on the spot, no mucking about.

Software pirating probably had little to no impact on the Dreamcast at all.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 11:15 PM
The Game Gear must've made Sega a good amount of money, for one thing it was just re-using the Master System hardware and a lot of it's catalogue not to mention the fact that i'm pretty sure it was quite expensive compared to the competition. It's games being in bargain bins means literally nothing, PS2 games are in bargain bins these days and that console could hardly be seen as a failure.


I'm talking $5 bargain bin, not $9.99.

It was also every Game Gear game Toys R Us had, and they were pretty much the only store that supported the system longer than a couple of years in North America. Somebody took a serious hit on all those games.

Sure the system used Master System hardware, but it still had what was a fairly expensive item, with the LCD. The Nomad was pretty much a condensed version of the Genesis, but the screen probably elevated the price quite a bit.

kool kitty89
09-03-2009, 11:36 PM
I don't get it. Here we have a guy that made a mistake by hinting at the fact that they were indeed working on a new console at a time when they were about to enter the third (3rd) holiday season in a row without being able to afford any advertisment whatsoever, and then a guy responsible for the end of Sega as we know it, but somehow Stolar still is the idíot to hate? I don't get it.

I don't hate him per se, hell Kalinse's extravigance probably did a lot more harm than good in the latter part of his tenure (before japan started cracking down), and Nakayama (along with some mixed influence from JP management) seems to have been the sourse of a lot of issues as well. (esp 32x/Saturn) Hell, Michael Katz (seemingly a bit more balanced and conservative) may have been better in the long run. (though the Genesis probably wouldn't have caught on as fast)
Kind of like how Warner's policies with Atari Inc. (under Ray Kassar) were both responsible for the great success of th ecompany in the early 80's, but also major contributors to the crash in 1983.

Anyway, the difference is, Stolar made a harsh statement on a delacate matter, when Sega was in a precarious position, while Moore (whether he really was the decider or not) made the statement in a loose loose situation, they were loosing money on the DC (hardware) and might not have been able to sell enough software proportionally, to mitigate this.
Who knows what might have happened if they had followed through with the DC (even if they had to cut back and lay off employees in th elatter parts of its life), they might have ended up in a better situation than they are, or they could have ended up worse, with a less favorable buyout/merger.

Another note on the Saturn's discontinuation though: I think they best thing they could have done (around the time Stolar made his statement), was to stop stockpiling hardware, but continue support, and begin clearing inventory at a reduced price, but not as drastically cut as they later ended up dumping it at. With limited, but stategic advertizing, and mention the new console in the works, but in a way that doesn't seem like you're abandoning the Saturn. (they were going to take a loss, but like with the DC scenario, it might have been preferable to follow through more gracefully, if not loosing less money, at least retaining a better reputation)


Did the Sega CD make money? I've heard the thing sold like 6 million odd, but I think most of the sales were at the begginning of it's lifespan.

Probably the opposite, with most being sold after the prices dropped (particularly the $150 price in '94 and further drop later). But in the console buisness, the most money is with game sales (either first pary titles or from licencing fees/royaltees from 3rd parties), Sony took a huge hit on the PlayStation hardware, but they were big enough to absorb it, and made their money through software sales. (this was the main problem with 3DO)



I doubt the Sega CD selling 6 million units would be seen as a profitable product. Especially when Sega drops the price (North America) from $300 to $99 within a year and a half. I can't imagine that Sega found a way to reduce the price of manufacturing a Sega CD by 66% within that timeframe, maybe they did?

No, it probably didn't drop that much, but I could immagine it dropping ~50% from the SCD Model 1 in 1992 to the Model 2 in late 1994. I'd immagine they were making at least some profit from hardware sales at the original price points (including the $230 M2 launch), probably a smaller margin than in Japan though, but that's not unusual. They were probably selling close to cost by the time the $150 1994 price came in, and must have been taking a loss when they dumped it to $99. (still the hardware costs should have fallen significantly since 1992, especially the CD Drive -and of course the model 2 was more cost efficient in general, probably not too much for RAM, if at all, but other components proabably were, like the CPU)

But, in any case, it's the software sales, in relation to hardware, that really demonstrates profitabillity, and I'm really not sure on the spcefics for Sega CD game sales.



The XBox sold over 25 million units, while the GC sold around 22 million. The DC wasn't even close, at just a little over 10 million units putting it just about even with the Saturn. The last 2 million units were the excess inventory that was sold off, after the announced discontinuation of the DC.[/url]

I got a different impression when I first read that, perhaps I misenterpreted, or he missspoke, but I got the impression that he didn't mean the DC as it was sold better than the other 2, but rather it was doing better than those were contemporarily. Rather, the GC and XBox were relatively week considering they were on the mainstream market almost twice as long as the DC, and that the DC might have been more popular than either had its life continued, hence the "bitter" comment.
But really, who knows, Sega could have ended up even worse off... or not. ;)

jesus.arnold
09-03-2009, 11:37 PM
I think the fact that there were so many in circulation to fill the bargain bins points to the system being a success, Gamecube games are never in bargain bins, I hardly ever even see them at all in fact and when I do they're really expensive because they're so uncommon, same goes for all the later day Saturn games.

gamevet
09-03-2009, 11:43 PM
I think the fact that there were so many in circulation to fill the bargain bins points to the system being a success, Gamecube games are never in bargain bins, I hardly ever even see them at all in fact and when I do they're really expensive because they're so uncommon, same goes for all the later day Saturn games.

Unlike Europe, in N.A. the Game Gear was a quick run and done.

The Gamecube had twice as many users and unlike the GG, it was actually selling on a consistant basis for a solid 4 years. There were plenty of bargain bin moments for GC titles, but they were mostly Army Men and sports games. The rest were sold at a snales pace, once they system faultered. As a matter of fact, I see Waverace and Naruto for the GC, sitting in a glass case at Walmart to this day.

It's also a heck of a lot easier to find a used GC title, over one for a GG.

gamegenie
09-04-2009, 01:44 AM
I'm not dogging on LIVE. I'm just pointing out that without LIVE and DLC, the 360 is a money pit for MS. I happen to like both consoles and I'd be hard pressed to choose one over the other if I could only keep one.

It should also be noted, that the PS3 has sold 20 million units in a shorter time-span than it took the 360.


http://news.vgchartz.com/news.php?id=2954




This is one of many sources.

I'd actually read somewhere else that Sega was looking for a certain number of DCs to be sold, or they were pulling the plug. It's probably in an old Next-Gen magazine I have sitting on my bookshelf at home. Or maybe it's in "The Ultimate Gaming History" book we talked about in another thread.




The Saturn was not profitable. Stolar may have prematurely announced that the Saturn was not Sega's future, but it was spurred on with the belief that the DC was coming sooner and the fact that Sega was losing too much money per unit sold.

I doubt the Sega CD selling 6 million units would be seen as a profitable product. Especially when Sega drops the price (North America) from $300 to $99 within a year and a half. I can't imagine that Sega found a way to reduce the price of manufacturing a Sega CD by 66% within that timeframe, maybe they did?

I don't know how profitable (ll million sold) the Gamegear was, but I do know I saw a ton of titles and the system itself in bargain bins 3 to 4 years after its release. There's no way Sega made much money, when its product is getting dumped like Atari 2600 cartridges. Maybe the system generated a few million in profit for Sega, but that's not what most would call a success. I can't imagine that it did, considering how many millions of $ Sega pumped out to advertise the system on national television and magazine ads.

The Sega CD didn't drop to $99 in a year in a half from it's 1992 launch, the model 2 SCD was $229 for the longest I remember, until 1995, when Sega lowered it to $99 and my dad bought me one.

Game Gear could have been profitable, had Sega kept it competitive to Gameboy, but it seems Sega didn't really care for handhelds and let Nintendo out pace them with their Gameboy revisions, while GG just stayed big and bulky, and battery hungry.

gamevet
09-04-2009, 03:05 AM
The Sega CD didn't drop to $99 in a year in a half from it's 1992 launch, the model 2 SCD was $229 for the longest I remember, until 1995, when Sega lowered it to $99 and my dad bought me one.

I'd bought one @1993 and I sure didn't pay $229 for it. I'd sold the Sega CD in 1995, with 30+ games to buy Saturn titles, so I know it wasn't 1995 when the price dropped to $99.


Game Gear could have been profitable, had Sega kept it competitive to Gameboy, but it seems Sega didn't really care for handhelds and let Nintendo out pace them with their Gameboy revisions, while GG just stayed big and bulky, and battery hungry.

It may very well have been profitable in Europe, where it seemed to have support for a long time. I can't see how it did in North America, with all the expensive television ad campaigns Sega put out there, only to have it dropped a couple of years later.

Cornugon
09-04-2009, 03:49 AM
Wasn't the Dreamcast fairly popular in Europe too?
Or is it more like: Hell if sells well or not in Europe, Europe is not important, only Amelica is important, Amelicans have biiig penis, We Japan have only tiny.

EDIT: Fixed!

gamevet
09-04-2009, 04:04 AM
Wasn't the Dreamcast fairly popular in Europe too? Even with it launching almost TWO YEARS later than the Japan one?
Or is it more like: Hell if sells well or not in Europe, Europe is not important, only Amelica is important, Amelicans have biiig penis, We Japan have only tiny.

DC launched in Europe a month after North America. North America was the region where DC had the most success, so SOJ pushed its money in that direction.

Europe is kind of a mess isn't it? Does everything there start out in the U.K., Germany and France, and then on to the other regions?

kool kitty89
09-04-2009, 04:12 AM
During its like I got lots of bargain GC games, used of course. (and some had been cheaper new as they were players choice editions, like Star Fox adventures, which I got for under $8 ~5 years ago)

Many game shops seem to have abandoned that and the Xbox (ie GameStop), but I just found that a local Play and Trade has quite a nice selection, though some (like Mario Kart DD) are rather expensive, I picked up Metroid Prome for $5 complete with (real, not stock) case and manual.

kool kitty89
09-04-2009, 04:15 AM
The Sega CD didn't drop to $99 in a year in a half from it's 1992 launch, the model 2 SCD was $229 for the longest I remember, until 1995, when Sega lowered it to $99 and my dad bought me one.

Game Gear could have been profitable, had Sega kept it competitive to Gameboy, but it seems Sega didn't really care for handhelds and let Nintendo out pace them with their Gameboy revisions, while GG just stayed big and bulky, and battery hungry.


DC launched in Europe a month after North America. North America was the region where DC had the most success, so SOJ pushed its money in that direction.

Europe is kind of a mess isn't it? Does everything there start out in the U.K., Germany and France, and then on to the other regions?

I don't think that's consistant... I beleive the UK was the last Wester European country to get the NES. (a significant contributor to the popularity of the SMS there)

Cornugon
09-04-2009, 04:24 AM
DC launched in Europe a month after North America. North America was the region where DC had the most success, so SOJ pushed its money in that direction.
Oh yeah you're right. Only one year :p, but is was discontinued one year later than North America according to wiki. And if it sold 4-5 million in NA and Japan alltogether, that still leaves 5-6 million for the rest of the world.



Europe is kind of a mess isn't it? Does everything there start out in the U.K., Germany and France, and then on to the other regions?

Well most abroad-continent releases (American and Japanese) used to come first in the UK, then within two months in the rest of 'western Europe/EU' including Germany, France, Italy, Holland, Sweden. Eastern Europe always came last.
Nowadays there isn't much delay anymore (as far as I know) between the UK and the rest of the EU, maybe two weeks max, most of the times even in the same week on the regular 'release day' of that country.
Unless it's a German original ofcourse. Than 'rest of Europe' would have to wait one year until they finally release an English/French/Italian version, like Drakensang.

Cornugon
09-04-2009, 04:30 AM
I don't think that's consistant... I beleive the UK was the last Wester European country to get the NES. (a significant contributor to the popularity of the SMS there)

So that would probably mean the NES was released early in the Netherlands, since nobody seemed to know the SMS until after the Megadrive's release. Like 'Oh look there's also an 8-bit Sega, like 'the Nintendo''. Everybody knew 'the Nintendo'. Or so it seemed (I was a bit young at that time so the perspective is mostly from an 5 to 8-year-old-me viewpoint)

gamegenie
09-04-2009, 05:39 AM
I'd bought one @1993 and I sure didn't pay $229 for it. I'd sold the Sega CD in 1995, with 30+ games to buy Saturn titles, so I know it wasn't 1995 when the price dropped to $99.



It may very well have been profitable in Europe, where it seemed to have support for a long time. I can't see how it did in North America, with all the expensive television ad campaigns Sega put out there, only to have it dropped a couple of years later.

Well I know this for a fact. Because before I got my first Sega Genesis, my dad and I had went to KayBee Toys to get a Sega CD. I distinctively remember the price tag of it being $229.99 which was very high and that we realized upon taking it home that we needed to have a Sega Genesis system with it and so we returned it and I ended up getting a Sega Genesis model 2 with Sonic 2 that year, which I am certain the date of that was on Christmas of 1993, and I recall the advertised price tag of the Genesis being $129.99. I ended up not getting a Sega CD till later when I saw it advertised in a Ventures or Wal-Mart ad for $99, which I am certain it was 1995, because I remember KayBee Toys were selling Sega CD games along with NES games at bottom barrel prices behind the counter and my parents had bought me a boat load Sega CD games.

The price drop was an reaction to the arrival of the Saturn that year, which I despised as I personally thought the Sega CD had a lot more life left in it.

kool kitty89
09-04-2009, 06:25 AM
The Model 2 CD launched in the US at $230, was down to $150 around the time the 32x came out, and probably dropped to $100 soon after. (probably early 1995)

jesus.arnold
09-04-2009, 11:36 AM
So that would probably mean the NES was released early in the Netherlands, since nobody seemed to know the SMS until after the Megadrive's release. Like 'Oh look there's also an 8-bit Sega, like 'the Nintendo''. Everybody knew 'the Nintendo'. Or so it seemed (I was a bit young at that time so the perspective is mostly from an 5 to 8-year-old-me viewpoint)Apparently Most of Europe got the NES in 1986, the United Kingdom and Italy got it the next year (as well as Australia)

Everybody knew both Nintendo and Sega here in the UK, Nintendo consoles were always stigmatised as being "uncool" "childish" and a little "wimpy" this pretty much carried on through all their console releases until the Wii (which is more seen as a for children and adults alike family machine), they were always more famous for their handhelds really as the Game and Watches, and Game Boy were their only huge successes here (until the Wii)

I'm not sure how much the release dates affected the outcomes, nobody here actually bought consoles in any numbers until years later anyway, even when released in 1987 here most people said the NES was too overpriced to bother with and it was relegated to a niche market immediately (even moreso than the Master System hardware and software which was cheaper to buy and carried Sega's name which was popular from the arcades) whilst the C64 and Spectrum carried on with massive popularity. It wasn't until the prices dropped years later that the consoles went through a resurgence in popularity.

Cornugon
09-04-2009, 12:53 PM
Apparently Most of Europe got the NES in 1986, the United Kingdom and Italy got it the next year (as well as Australia)

Everybody knew both Nintendo and Sega here in the UK, Nintendo consoles were always stigmatised as being "uncool" "childish" and a little "wimpy" this pretty much carried on through all their console releases until the Wii (which is more seen as a for children and adults alike family machine), they were always more famous for their handhelds really as the Game and Watches, and Game Boy were their only huge successes here (until the Wii)

I'm not sure how much the release dates affected the outcomes, nobody here actually bought consoles in any numbers until years later anyway, even when released in 1987 here most people said the NES was too overpriced to bother with and it was relegated to a niche market immediately (even moreso than the Master System hardware and software which was cheaper to buy and carried Sega's name which was popular from the arcades) whilst the C64 and Spectrum carried on with massive popularity. It wasn't until the prices dropped years later that the consoles went through a resurgence in popularity.

I envy you British sometimes. You had Amiga games still for sale in your local Virgin and WH Smith in the mid nineties (here you had to go to an expo where you had 1 stand with overpriced Amiga games on bad disks if you're lucky).
-The Megadrive seemed to be much more popular than the 'Souper Niintendow' (Here's the other way around. It's funny I've read some stuff on Dutch forums where people go out retro games shopping in England and seriously are surprised that there is much more choice of Sega stuff than Nintendo's :cool:).
- The ZX Spectrum was as popular as the C64 there (yeah sure here we have an unusually strong MSX-stronghold because our only electronics firm (Philips) fabricated them, but still I had a ZX Spectrum and NOT an MSX)

jesus.arnold
09-04-2009, 01:15 PM
I envy you British sometimes. You had Amiga games still for sale in your local Virgin and WH Smith in the mid nineties (here you had to go to an expo where you had 1 stand with overpriced Amiga games on bad disks if you're lucky).
-The Megadrive seemed to be much more popular than the 'Souper Niintendow' (Here's the other way around. It's funny I've read some stuff on Dutch forums where people go out retro games shopping in England and seriously are surprised that there is much more choice of Sega stuff than Nintendo's :cool:).
- The ZX Spectrum was as popular as the C64 there (yeah sure here we have an unusually strong MSX-stronghold because our only electronics firm (Philips) fabricated them, but still I had a ZX Spectrum and NOT an MSX)One of the problems for me personally though was that I was actually a NES fan during the 8-bit console days, which often put me at odds with the other kids :)

The NES always had a dedicated fanbase in the UK though, it just wasn't the "in" console to have, I think the same thing started to happen in the US during the N64/Gamecube Vs Playstations era as I hear a lot of Americans going on about how childish the Gamecube was compared to the PS2. During that era over here Sony basically took over from Sega in the UK and used the same image that Sega had been using for years, unfortunately Sega just never recovered from the Saturn in the UK, the console was just so unpopular that they pretty much lost their cast iron base here for good.

Cornugon
09-04-2009, 01:28 PM
One of the problems for me personally though was that I was actually a NES fan during the 8-bit console days, which often put me at odds with the other kids :)

The NES always had a dedicated fanbase in the UK though, it just wasn't the "in" console to have, I think the same thing started to happen in the US during the N64/Gamecube Vs Playstations era as I hear a lot of Americans going on about how childish the Gamecube was compared to the PS2. During that era over here Sony basically took over from Sega in the UK and used the same image that Sega had been using for years, unfortunately Sega just never recovered from the Saturn in the UK, the console was just so unpopular that they pretty much lost their cast iron base here for good.
That displays how stubborn average Brits are, just like how ignorant Dutch are. And ofcourse cheap-assed (remember the saying of 'going dutch'? That didn't come out of nowhere ;))

The Amiga and ZX Spectrum also have their dedicated fans here in Holland, but with very small numbers ofcourse.

jesus.arnold
09-04-2009, 01:55 PM
That displays how stubborn average Brits are, just like how ignorant Dutch are. And ofcourse cheap-assed (remember the saying of 'going dutch'? That didn't come out of nowhere ;))

The Amiga and ZX Spectrum also have their dedicated fans here in Holland, but with very small numbers ofcourse.Even though it was very popular in the UK at the time, these days in Britain the Amiga fanbase has unfortunately dwindled to quite small numbers, it just seems as though the younger retro gamers aren't really that interested in it (or any other home computers), on the other side of the spectrum the Super Nintendo has gained masses of retro supporters here but at the time it had much lower popularity than the Amiga and Mega Drive.

Unlike with old console stuff, people here seem to throw anything old computer related straight into the bin instead of attempting to sell :(

What was the popularity of the MSX like in the Netherlands? I know it was popular, but how much? more popular than C64?

Chilly Willy
09-04-2009, 01:56 PM
The Model 2 CD launched in the US at $230, was down to $150 around the time the 32x came out, and probably dropped to $100 soon after. (probably early 1995)

That matches my memories... $230 in 93, $150 in 94 (when I bought mine - along with a launch 32X), and $100 in 95. I got most of my SEGA CDs in 97 or 98 when the local Hastings dumped them for $2 each to make space for more PSX/XBox games.

Cornugon
09-04-2009, 03:38 PM
Even though it was very popular in the UK at the time, these days in Britain the Amiga fanbase has unfortunately dwindled to quite small numbers, it just seems as though the younger retro gamers aren't really that interested in it (or any other home computers), on the other side of the spectrum the Super Nintendo has gained masses of retro supporters here but at the time it had much lower popularity than the Amiga and Mega Drive.
Strange how the Super Nintendo suddenly got all the popularity. You know why perhaps? Is it because of import titles becoming easier available? (like Chronotrigger)



Unlike with old console stuff, people here seem to throw anything old computer related straight into the bin instead of attempting to sell :(
That's a waste :/ I wouldn't even think of throwing a C64 in a garbage disposal.


What was the popularity of the MSX like in the Netherlands? I know it was popular, but how much? more popular than C64?
I think the popularity was comparable to the C64, at the time we had an MSX-2 at school, and I knew of at least 2 friends of that time who had one. One of them and another friend had a (cassette only) C64.
But I was very young at that time so my vision of the world was quite narrow and I didn't pay attention enough when being in a computerstore.
My dad had both a Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum (with Opus Discovery 3.5" disk-drive). But he was one of the few people who actually was interested in computers but at the same time not a person to spend much money on it (I guess an MSX would have been expensive).

jesus.arnold
09-04-2009, 04:26 PM
Strange how the Super Nintendo suddenly got all the popularity. You know why perhaps? Is it because of import titles becoming easier available? (like Chronotrigger)It's hard to tell, if I were to conjecture

1. History is written by the winners - Nintendo are still a major force in the gaming industry today and are still very much in the public eye so it's only natural that people will become fans of their older consoles retrospectively.

2. JRPG's, Platformers, and action games in general seem to be more popular with retro gamers - the SNES and Mega Drive are both certainly better for these types of games whilst the Amiga was always strong with more Strategy and puzzle orientated style games.

3. Computer emulators are more difficult to use

4. Amiga's and their games are very rarely seen here these days due to the fact that they were usually binned, SNES' whilst uncommon are still occasionally to be found in second hand stores.

5. Amiga games are not as accessible as SNES games (Kinda' leads on from 2) - you can try out a SNES game and get into it fast as the learning curve is usually pretty nonexistant, whilst Amiga games often need instructions and time spent on them to actually learn how to play.

5. Americans :lol: - When it comes to 8-bit and 16-bit games Americans are virtually on the Nintendo PR staff, they pretty much spread Nintendo advertising slogans across the internet, some of the ones that regularly come up are "the NES saved the video game industry" "all platformers are Super Mario Bros clones" "Zelda was the first non-linear adventure game" "multi-format games are always better on SNES" "the SNES is easily the greatest console ever made" they make up the largest part of the English speaking world and the Amiga didn't succeed there so they have no interest in talking about it (the preceding was a slight generalisation :D).


I think the popularity was comparable to the C64, at the time we had an MSX-2 at school, and I knew of at least 2 friends of that time who had one. One of them and another friend had a (cassette only) C64.
But I was very young at that time so my vision of the world was quite narrow and I didn't pay attention enough when being in a computerstore.That's cool, from that and what i've heard in the past it does seem that the Netherlands was the MSX center of Europe, I know that the machine was popular in Spain too (though not as much as the Spectrum from what I've heard) but apart from that I haven't heard much else.

Cornugon
09-04-2009, 04:38 PM
Americans :lol: - When it comes to 8-bit and 16-bit games Americans are virtually on the Nintendo PR staff, they pretty much spread Nintendo advertising slogans across the internet, some of the ones that regularly come up are "the NES saved the video game industry" "all platformers are Super Mario Bros clones" "Zelda was the first non-linear adventure game" "multi-format games are always better on SNES" "the SNES is easily the greatest console ever made" they make up the largest part of the English speaking world and the Amiga didn't succeed there so they have no interest in talking about it (the preceding was a slight generalisation :D).
Sounds like your average American advertising talk to me, and they tend to trample over the naysayers in the process. Sounds a bit like 'ignorance'.

That doesn't go for ALL Americans ofcourse :cool:

jesus.arnold
09-04-2009, 06:13 PM
Sounds like your average American advertising talk to me, and they tend to trample over the naysayers in the process. Sounds a bit like 'ignorance'.Well... every country's pretty much the same in that area unfortunately, it's just that the US has the numbers of people :)

17daysolderthannes
09-04-2009, 08:49 PM
5. Americans :lol: - When it comes to 8-bit and 16-bit games Americans are virtually on the Nintendo PR staff, they pretty much spread Nintendo advertising slogans across the internet, some of the ones that regularly come up are "the NES saved the video game industry" "all platformers are Super Mario Bros clones" "Zelda was the first non-linear adventure game" "multi-format games are always better on SNES" "the SNES is easily the greatest console ever made" they make up the largest part of the English speaking world and the Amiga didn't succeed there so they have no interest in talking about it (the preceding was a slight generalisation :D).



But wasn't the Amiga a computer? how can you even compare that? Even today people will tell you to STFU if you try to compare a console to a computer, so how is it different back then?

jesus.arnold
09-04-2009, 09:39 PM
But wasn't the Amiga a computer? how can you even compare that? Even today people will tell you to STFU if you try to compare a console to a computer, so how is it different back then?


P.S. a video game system is a computer, when I said a computer imitating another computer, that's the same thing as saying hardware imitating hardware with software.:D

Seriously though, yeah the Amiga was a computer, and? I can compare them because they're all 16-bit games machines.

kool kitty89
09-04-2009, 10:33 PM
The Amiga's probably more game console than computer anyway, definitely moreso than the contemporary Atari ST, though that had plenty of games. (or PC) And of course, the Amiga design was lead by Jay Miner the designer of the Atari 2600 and 8-bit chipsets -specifically TIA and CTIA+ANTIC. (the video portions)

Kind of like the Atari 8-bit or C64 (both more or less game console hardware that morphed into computers, though both probably had gaming as their main use). Hence the argument that there was no gaming crash, just a shift in players ~1983, with the C64 bing th ebig game system.

Of course, all of these cases are more empehsized in the EU/UK market, where 8-bit computers were massively popular, particularly for games.


As for retro computer gaming, retro DOS/PC gaming seems to be fairly strong, at least inthe US, but that's kind of easier to get into than Amiga. (larger userbase, many playable on newer hardware, at least via emulation -and building an old win9x/DOS machine not being all that difficult) More importantly, people don't seem to have been as quick to toos games as was mentioned with the Amiga, especially CDs, though floppys (esp 5 1/4") are a it more scarce.

17daysolderthannes
09-04-2009, 10:38 PM
:D

Seriously though, yeah the Amiga was a computer, and? I can compare them because they're all 16-bit games machines.

touche sir, but I meant (and I'm sure you know this) one in a pure hardware capability standpoint and the other from a marketing and functional standpoint. A PS3 is very much a computer, but no one is scrambling to write an essay on their PS3. Somehow, there is a vast canyon between playing a game on a computer and playing it on a console on a normal TV. Was the Amiga competitively priced with a standard video game console? Typically, the difference comes (at least in modern terms) from price (cheap upfront, more expensive games for consoles, the reverse for computers) and primary function. Like I said, no one is writing a term paper on an XBOX 360, at least no one I know of, though the line is certainly blurring quite a bit with hard drives and upgradeable systems.

jesus.arnold
09-04-2009, 11:05 PM
touche sir, but I meant (and I'm sure you know this) one in a pure hardware capability standpoint and the other from a marketing and functional standpoint. A PS3 is very much a computer, but no one is scrambling to write an essay on their PS3. Somehow, there is a vast canyon between playing a game on a computer and playing it on a console on a normal TV. Was the Amiga competitively priced with a standard video game console? Typically, the difference comes (at least in modern terms) from price (cheap upfront, more expensive games for consoles, the reverse for computers) and primary function. Like I said, no one is writing a term paper on an XBOX 360, at least no one I know of, though the line is certainly blurring quite a bit with hard drives and upgradeable systems.The thing is, back in those days computers were very different to modern day PC's, as Kool Kitty was saying the Amiga and other home computers were very console-alike in comparison to what you get now. Many of them were specifically designed to play games in the first place and gaming was pretty much all they were used for, the ZX Spectrum for instance was pretty much useless for anything but gaming, and it sold for less than the average console.

Taking a look at some of your points

Modern PC's are played on a monitor, Home computers were often played on a television (or at least had the option of being played on a television)

Home computers often had joystick ports built in that would accept generic Atari 2600 style controllers.

The Amiga specifically didn't even have a start-up interface, if turned on without a disk it just comes up with a disk input picture, if turned on with a game in it immediately loads the game automatically.

Home computers usually had limited expandability, you'd get a stock machine for sale which would play all games developed for it without the need to worry about specs (the Amiga was actually an exception for this rule as some games needed a memory expansion, though really this is no different to the way that Donkey Kong 64 works when you think about it)

Home computers were all in one, you didn't get a separate keyboard attached to the computer, it was more like a console with keys dumped on top of it.

For all intents and purposes there's not really any real difference between playing Soldiers of Fortune/Chaos Engine on a TV with the Genesis using a Genesis controller than playing the same games on the Amiga with a Genesis controller.

A thought actually occured to me when you mentioned the PS3 earlier, in my opinion the PS3 and 360 actually share more similarities to modern PC's than home computers did, they have user interfaces, expandability, you don't get one stock machine for sale, they have features like internet browsing and such, as well as storage for holding music, videos, pictures. The only thing is that they don't have the keyboard attached, you have to buy it separately.

kool kitty89
09-04-2009, 11:41 PM
touche sir, but I meant (and I'm sure you know this) one in a pure hardware capability standpoint and the other from a marketing and functional standpoint. A PS3 is very much a computer, but no one is scrambling to write an essay on their PS3.

I'm willing to bet some do, especially for online/hybrid classes. With a keyboard of course. ;)


The thing is, back in those days computers were very different to modern day PC's, as Kool Kitty was saying the Amiga and other home computers were very console-alike in comparison to what you get now. Many of them were specifically designed to play games in the first place and gaming was pretty much all they were used for, the ZX Spectrum for instance was pretty much useless for anything but gaming, and it sold for less than the average console.

Heh, yeah, but now iot's gone the other way, with consoles becoming more PC like in functionality/interface. (I seem tho remember that some more recent PS3 or 360 games require an install to the HDD even) Of course the original Xbox was basicly PC hardware. (granted there are significant differences in functionality, plug and play for example, and fixed specs)



Modern PC's are played on a monitor, Home computers were often played on a television (or at least had the option of being played on a television)

Heh, that's also going the other way, especially with modern HDTVs hooked up via VGA. (my dad's current;y using one as his main monitor) Previously you could often hook up the video card via composite or S-Video, which we did/do on our main entertainment system -as a 2nd monitor. (originally for DVDs back ~2001, but it also got used a lot for gaming -with wireless mouse/keyboard/gamepad)

Heh, and you could play a lot of modern consoles on a VGA monitor as well.


Though if you look specifically at PCs (IBM compatibles), they would have been monitor only back in the early-mid 80s (monochrome or CGA/EGA), I'm not sure when video cards started supporting alternate outputs, but probably not until the mid '90s I'd guess. (well after VGA/SVGA was standard)

gamevet
09-05-2009, 03:48 AM
5. Americans :lol: - When it comes to 8-bit and 16-bit games Americans are virtually on the Nintendo PR staff, they pretty much spread Nintendo advertising slogans across the internet, some of the ones that regularly come up are "the NES saved the video game industry" "all platformers are Super Mario Bros clones" "Zelda was the first non-linear adventure game" "multi-format games are always better on SNES" "the SNES is easily the greatest console ever made" they make up the largest part of the English speaking world and the Amiga didn't succeed there so they have no interest in talking about it (the preceding was a slight generalisation :D).

Anybody over 30 knows better, as we were playing 8-bit computer games from the early 80's into the end of that decade. I was buying C-64 games into the late 80's and Amiga games until around 92.

The Amiga wasn't a big seller in North America, but everyone in the computer gaming circle knew about it.


The NES always had a dedicated fanbase in the UK though, it just wasn't the "in" console to have, I think the same thing started to happen in the US during the N64/Gamecube Vs Playstations era as I hear a lot of Americans going on about how childish the Gamecube was compared to the PS2. During that era over here Sony basically took over from Sega in the UK and used the same image that Sega had been using for years, unfortunately Sega just never recovered from the Saturn in the UK, the console was just so unpopular that they pretty much lost their cast iron base here for good.

The N64 had a reputation for being the more childish system of the 3, but it was very popular in the US. The N64 probably would have been considered a failure, if not for the huge success it had in North America.

The GC was pretty much labeled the uncool system, because of the software that was available on the N64, and even though Nintendo tried to shake that idea with titles like the Resident Evil series, Turok and MGS: The Twin Snakes, the system still carried that label.