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Jasper061992
11-22-2009, 04:04 PM
Yeah, another "over-the-top" imagination. But do you really think the 32x would be capable running Quake with serious optimisation?

Honey the Cat
11-22-2009, 04:39 PM
The 32X is capable of simple polygons, so maybe lower the poly for ingame models and redo the music for the soundchip and you're set.

Chilly Willy
11-22-2009, 04:43 PM
Yes, actually. What you need is the Neo Myth - it provides the ram needed. Then you take QuakeDS (which was modified to use about 3.8 MB of ram on the NDS) and modify it for the 32X+Neo Myth. You aren't going to get good frame rates out of it, but it should be playable. It's one of the things I plan to work on once I've got my custom menu for the Neo Myth going.

Without the Neo Myth, Quake is probably beyond the 32X - not enough ram by half. You'd have to rewrite Quake from scratch, making a game that (sorta) looks and plays like Quake, but isn't really Quake. That's the main problem with a lot of software from the 90's - you could port it to the 32X if it had more ram.

Iron Lizard
11-22-2009, 04:44 PM
Dr. Emmet Brown, Short Round, Donatello from TMNT, and maybe MacGyver working together might be able to pull it off.

Jasper061992
11-22-2009, 04:55 PM
Yes, actually. What you need is the Neo Myth - it provides the ram needed. Then you take QuakeDS (which was modified to use about 3.8 MB of ram on the NDS) and modify it for the 32X+Neo Myth. You aren't going to get good frame rates out of it, but it should be playable. It's one of the things I plan to work on once I've got my custom menu for the Neo Myth going.

Without the Neo Myth, Quake is probably beyond the 32X - not enough ram by half. You'd have to rewrite Quake from scratch, making a game that (sorta) looks and plays like Quake, but isn't really Quake. That's the main problem with a lot of software from the 90's - you could port it to the 32X if it had more ram.

Which brings me to my next question. Can the 32x Access the Mega CD's RAM via the Mega Drive? If it could, it may help somewhat. You know, combine the 32x's RAM, Mega CD's RAM and the Megadrives 64KB of RAM to make nearly 1MB, but not sure exactly how much RAM the Mega CD has, was it about 700 odd KB? Anyways doubt if this idea sounds possible, sounds extremely complicated, i know lol. I'd definitely give it a try if i could program.

BTW, whats the Neo Myth?

Chilly Willy
11-22-2009, 05:30 PM
Which brings me to my next question. Can the 32x Access the Mega CD's RAM via the Mega Drive? If it could, it may help somewhat. You know, combine the 32x's RAM, Mega CD's RAM and the Megadrives 64KB of RAM to make nearly 1MB, but not sure exactly how much RAM the Mega CD has, was it about 700 odd KB? Anyways doubt if this idea sounds possible, sounds extremely complicated, i know lol. I'd definitely give it a try if i could program.

No, the 32X cannot access the CD's memory - not even the Word RAM that the MD 68000 can access. Data is either passed by the MD 68000 through the 32X framebuffer or the 32X DMA port.


BTW, whats the Neo Myth?

The Neo Myth 3 in 1 MD flash cart from NeoFlash.

http://www.ic2005.com/shop/product.php?productid=33&cat=3&page=1

It is an adapter to allow you to use GBA/NDS flash carts with the MD. It comes with one 512Mbit Neo2 GBA/NDS flash cart, and others are available at places like ic2005. It also has the equivalent of the PowerBase built into it so you can play SMS games from the flash as well. It has the GBA cart port, an ASIC to control everything (does the PowerBase and SSF2 bank selecting), the SMS FM sound chip, 8MB of PSRAM, and 1024 bits of EEPROM. The GBA/NDS flash cart that comes with it has 512Mbit of flash as well as 2Mbit of SaveRAM.

Normally, SMS games are played straight from the flash, while the Neo Myth serves as a PowerBase adapter as well as providing the FM sound chip. MD/32X games are normally copied from the flash into the PSRAM in the Neo Myth, then the Neo Myth pretends that is a rom, with the SSF2 bank selecting hardware being available (for playing SSF2).

It has a built in USB controller that allows it to be programmed from your PC via USB. No extra programmer is needed like with other flash carts.

It's a VERY flexible cart for the MD... and a bit pricey as you can see from the ic2005 page. Considering what you get, I'd call it a good investment for your MD. Save up your pennies until you can get one - it's the best flash cart for the MD, hands down.

Da_Shocker
11-22-2009, 06:11 PM
My thing is why bother at all if you need the Neo Myth.

Chilly Willy
11-22-2009, 06:50 PM
My thing is why bother at all if you need the Neo Myth.

Once you have a Neo Myth for other reasons, THEN it's "why not?" :D

I got the MD-Pro 64 for homebrew - specifically, testing Wolf32X on real hardware. I plan to have ZT link-cable multi-player support in Doom, so I needed another cart. I was THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS close to buying an MD-Pro 32, then the Neo Myth came out. It was about twice the price of the MD-Pro 32 alone, so I was still leaning toward the MD-Pro. Then the thread on the Neo Myth here started up and people started going over the pros and cons of the various carts. I decided to bite the bullet and spring for the Neo Myth. I'm happy I did. It was more money initially, but I have a cart that's much more useful in the long run. If I were just getting into the SEGA scene right now, I'd probably get a Neo Myth BEFORE getting a SCD.

kool kitty89
11-22-2009, 08:23 PM
The CD's RAM can't be accessed directly by 32x, but can be useful for 32xCD games, and more flexible than using cart ROM for some things, right Chilly? (hence why you're planning on going that route for Doom)

Is having data passed through the Genesis from the CD's RAM to 32x faster (in terms of data transfer rate) than accessing cartrige ROM?

Chilly Willy
11-22-2009, 08:41 PM
The CD's RAM can't be accessed directly by 32x, but can be useful for 32xCD games, and more flexible than using cart ROM for some things, right Chilly? (hence why you're planning on going that route for Doom)

A cart allows you to store more stuff directly accessible to the 32X, but the CD allows you to store more data in total. As an example, look at my cart version of Wolf32X - about 3MB for the shareware versions. When I think about a cart version of Doom 32X, I'm tempter to make a cart image for each level and count on the save ram to allow you to continue from one level to the next.

By contract, the CD can hold several hundred MBytes of data. You have to load the data a bit at a time. There's not a whole lot of ram either, so the data needs to be just what you need without anything extra. Maybe it needs to be compressed as well, but compression can slow things down if not done correctly.


Is having data passed through the Genesis from the CD's RAM to 32x faster (in terms of data transfer rate) than accessing cartrige ROM?

No. The 32X has to tell the MD what it wants; the MD then tells the CD what it was told to get; the CD then goes to get it; the CD then tells the MD the data is ready; the MD then transfers the data to the 32X through the DMA port (for example). Once the DMA is done, the 32X can access whatever the MD transferred over. So you have to do something like write the program to request data you know you will need before you need it, otherwise the 32X is stuck waiting for the data to be available.

The cart will nearly always be faster - just access the data straight. There's just an upper limit on how much can go in the cart. If the MD had allowed for carts to be like 64MB or more and the flash carts supported that, it wouldn't be an issue. We'd simply put everything in the cart. It would be like the current Wolf32X, but BIG. However, we're currently stuck with 4MB carts (or 8 if you can handle doing SSF2 bank selecting). So cart vs CD - they both have their limitations.

That's partly why I'm so "gung-ho" on the Neo Myth. With the Neo2-SD in place of the regular flash cart, it has the potential to transcend most of these limitations. The Neo Myth can provide up to 8MB of RAM, and the Neo2-SD can provide access to SD cards up to 2GB. It's a homebrew developer's dream! :D

Da_Shocker
11-22-2009, 09:38 PM
Once you have a Neo Myth for other reasons, THEN it's "why not?" :D

I got the MD-Pro 64 for homebrew - specifically, testing Wolf32X on real hardware. I plan to have ZT link-cable multi-player support in Doom, so I needed another cart. I was THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS close to buying an MD-Pro 32, then the Neo Myth came out. It was about twice the price of the MD-Pro 32 alone, so I was still leaning toward the MD-Pro. Then the thread on the Neo Myth here started up and people started going over the pros and cons of the various carts. I decided to bite the bullet and spring for the Neo Myth. I'm happy I did. It was more money initially, but I have a cart that's much more useful in the long run. If I were just getting into the SEGA scene right now, I'd probably get a Neo Myth BEFORE getting a SCD.

Well I guess i'd rather see stuff worked on with jsut the base hardware rather than getting an advantage from an unofficial piece of hardware.

Chilly Willy
11-22-2009, 10:38 PM
Well I guess i'd rather see stuff worked on with jsut the base hardware rather than getting an advantage from an unofficial piece of hardware.

You will - quite a few of those emulators mentioned in the other thread can all run on a stock 32X... with a flash cart. I suppose a CD32X would also work for some, too.

However, don't even think about something like Quake without something like the Neo Myth. Simply not possible. "Quake" for a stock 32X would be kinda like the "Duke3D" there is for the MD - that is, not really the game you're expecting.

philiptwood
11-23-2009, 02:51 AM
Once you have a Neo Myth for other reasons, THEN it's "why not?" :D

I got the MD-Pro 64 for homebrew - specifically, testing Wolf32X on real hardware. I plan to have ZT link-cable multi-player support in Doom, so I needed another cart. I was THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS close to buying an MD-Pro 32, then the Neo Myth came out. It was about twice the price of the MD-Pro 32 alone, so I was still leaning toward the MD-Pro. Then the thread on the Neo Myth here started up and people started going over the pros and cons of the various carts. I decided to bite the bullet and spring for the Neo Myth. I'm happy I did. It was more money initially, but I have a cart that's much more useful in the long run. If I were just getting into the SEGA scene right now, I'd probably get a Neo Myth BEFORE getting a SCD.

And to think I was the one who started the thread out curiosity, but I still haven't purchased one yet. Money has been so tight lately I wasn't going to get one, but you're making me change my mind. :) Now I know I got-a-have-it.

Bablefish
11-23-2009, 11:33 AM
Don't laugh some have done even wilder things, someone actually did a version of Doom for the 2600. The rom can be found on the Atari Age site.

mrbigreddog
11-23-2009, 01:15 PM
You will - quite a few of those emulators mentioned in the other thread can all run on a stock 32X... with a flash cart. I suppose a CD32X would also work for some, too.

However, don't even think about something like Quake without something like the Neo Myth. Simply not possible. "Quake" for a stock 32X would be kinda like the "Duke3D" there is for the MD - that is, not really the game you're expecting.

Wouldn't it be "exactly" like Doom64 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_64)! Not what you expect either, but better than regular Doom! (Graphically) minus the GL Filter of course!

Chilly Willy
11-23-2009, 02:11 PM
Wouldn't it be "exactly" like Doom64 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_64)! Not what you expect either, but better than regular Doom! (Graphically) minus the GL Filter of course!

Anything is possible, but something like that is very unlikely. Doom64 turned out so good because the hardware was more than capable of handling the base game. That allowed them to make it much better. They tuned the game upwards using the left-over power. There is no left-over power on the 32X for something like this. Quake will require everything the 32X+Neo Myth has, and more.


Don't laugh some have done even wilder things, someone actually did a version of Doom for the 2600. The rom can be found on the Atari Age site.

You're thinking of the classic hoax - 2600 Doom (http://web.archive.org/web/20071227084734/http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/8691/2600DOOM.HTM). A great hoax, but still just a hoax. :D

kool kitty89
11-23-2009, 03:39 PM
Then there's the ZX Spectrum Doom, which is real, but not a port. (more of a cut-down wolf-3d like game) Impressive for the Speccy though.

Chilly Willy
11-23-2009, 03:54 PM
Then there's the ZX Spectrum Doom, which is real, but not a port. (more of a cut-down wolf-3d like game) Impressive for the Speccy though.

That's much more what it would be like, relatively speaking.

mrbigreddog
11-23-2009, 04:54 PM
Anything is possible, but something like that is very unlikely. Doom64 turned out so good because the hardware was more than capable of handling the base game. That allowed them to make it much better. They tuned the game upwards using the left-over power. There is no left-over power on the 32X for something like this. Quake will require everything the 32X+Neo Myth has, and more.

I mean that Doom64=Quake32x, because Doom64 is better than Doom but not as good as Quake!

Or would it be more like this?
http://webpages.mr.net/bobz/ttyquake/ss/start.jpg
TEXT MOD QUAKE!!!!

Couldn't find a video of the first quake in text mod... but you see what I'm getting at!

Here's Quake 2 Text MOD!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0nRPoS2WDJA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0nRPoS2WDJA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

KnightWarrior
11-23-2009, 05:35 PM
How about a 32XCD version of Quake with the hacked VR cart working as a RAM cart, would that work Chilly

Chilly Willy
11-23-2009, 05:55 PM
How about a 32XCD version of Quake with the hacked VR cart working as a RAM cart, would that work Chilly

I haven't had time to work on the VR hack yet. Need to look up some ram chips, order them, unsolder the rom, etc. I'm more focused on the Neo Myth at the moment. Then back to the 32X/CD stuff.

That said, the VR cart only makes space for a max of 3MB of ROM (or RAM if the hack works). 3MB isn't enough for QuakeDS, so it would need further hacking to reduce the memory even more. I don't really want to do that right now. Just hacking QuakeDS to work with the Neo Myth (or any other ram cart with 4MB of ram) is enough work. :|


I mean that Doom64=Quake32x, because Doom64 is better than Doom but not as good as Quake!

Oh, okay. That makes a LOT more sense. :D

Well, given the "true" 3D nature of Quake, Q32X probably won't be nearly as smooth or responsive, so while it will allow you to do things like look around, die hard gamers won't like the drop in frame rate. Won't know how bad it is until I get it running, so I still can't give a thumbs up to the relation you suggest.

mrbigreddog
11-23-2009, 06:00 PM
I haven't had time to work on the VR hack yet. Need to look up some ram chips, order them, unsolder the rom, etc. I'm more focused on the Neo Myth at the moment. Then back to the 32X/CD stuff.

That said, the VR cart only makes space for a max of 3MB of ROM (or RAM if the hack works). 3MB isn't enough for QuakeDS, so it would need further hacking to reduce the memory even more. I don't really want to do that right now. Just hacking QuakeDS to work with the Neo Myth (or any other ram cart with 4MB of ram) is enough work. :|
.

Wouldn't removing the guys and replacing them with 4 side sprites (like doom) reduce the amount of ram needed... And/Or using simpler maps with less structure (like Quake 64)?
http://curmudgeongamer.com/images/articles/20021222175001808_5.pnghttp://curmudgeongamer.com/images/articles/20021222175001808_6.png

Simpler Structures in Quake 64 on the left/ Saturn Quake on the right! Same level same place!

Chilly Willy
11-23-2009, 06:36 PM
Wouldn't removing the guys and replacing them with 4 side sprites (like doom) reduce the amount of ram needed... And/Or using simpler maps with less structure (like Quake 64)?
http://curmudgeongamer.com/images/articles/20021222175001808_5.pnghttp://curmudgeongamer.com/images/articles/20021222175001808_6.png

Simpler Structures in Quake 64 on the left/ Saturn Quake on the right! Same level same place!

Replacing 3D objects with sprites would use MORE space because you'd need sprites for everything. Also, who's going to make all those sprites? Not me, that's for sure! :D

That's also ignoring that Quake isn't written to support sprites, just 3D. Also, I'm not about to put in ANY work on editing levels to make them work in less memory. Scaling textures is about the most you can ask for a project like this.

What you're talking about is a Quake TC for Doom (I think there is a patch wad like that), plus the ability to look up/down in Doom.

mrbigreddog
11-23-2009, 07:20 PM
Replacing 3D objects with sprites would use MORE space because you'd need sprites for everything. Also, who's going to make all those sprites? Not me, that's for sure! :D

That's also ignoring that Quake isn't written to support sprites, just 3D. Also, I'm not about to put in ANY work on editing levels to make them work in less memory. Scaling textures is about the most you can ask for a project like this.

What you're talking about is a Quake TC for Doom (I think there is a patch wad like that), plus the ability to look up/down in Doom.

Your right! I'm just giving some ideas... To tell you the truth, I love Quake! Don't get me wrong! But it would really suck without a mouse or analog stick! (just like it does on the Saturn) (I don't have the 3D controller for Saturn) But how great could the controls be on the 32x?! Doom works great cause you don't have to look up or down!

kool kitty89
11-23-2009, 07:39 PM
Use the Sega Mouse! ;)

KnightWarrior
11-23-2009, 08:03 PM
How much RAM did Quake use on the PC??

How about the Saturn version did Sega make the game for the ground up to get it to work on the Saturn..didn't the Saturn have only 2MB of RAM in the system

Chilly Willy
11-23-2009, 10:01 PM
How much RAM did Quake use on the PC??

It was suggested that you have a Pentium and 8MB of ram, minimum.


How about the Saturn version did Sega make the game for the ground up to get it to work on the Saturn..didn't the Saturn have only 2MB of RAM in the system

The Saturn has 1MB of fast work ram that is normally used for code and variables, and another 1MB of slower work ram that is used for more general data storage. The Saturn also has 1.5 MB of video ram; taking advantage of that can lessen the need for general ram. Likewise, it has 0.5 MB of sound ram.

Quake for the Saturn is based on Lobotomy's Power Slave engine - written specifically for the Saturn. There's a nice article on it here: http://www.whipassgaming.com/genesisreviews/powerslave/quake.html

KnightWarrior
11-23-2009, 10:56 PM
Can QuakeDS work on the R4??

Chilly Willy
11-24-2009, 12:08 AM
Can QuakeDS work on the R4??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN0rbC-kNNQ

If anyone is interested in QuakeDS, the link is: http://quake.drunkencoders.com/index_q1.html

matteus
11-24-2009, 04:11 AM
chilly i have to give you credit for having so much patience. I'd of blown my top by now :-) maybe each forum should have a sticky thread with a hardware break down and limitations

Chilly Willy
11-24-2009, 04:26 AM
Well, as long as it doesn't get TOO silly, threads like this can be kinda fun. But, first request for Quake 3 gets my foot up their ***. :D

TmEE
11-24-2009, 05:04 AM
But Quake2 doesn't ? sweet ;P

Devil N
11-24-2009, 05:16 AM
Replacing 3D objects with sprites would use MORE space because you'd need sprites for everything. Also, who's going to make all those sprites? Not me, that's for sure! :D

That's also ignoring that Quake isn't written to support sprites, just 3D. Also, I'm not about to put in ANY work on editing levels to make them work in less memory. Scaling textures is about the most you can ask for a project like this.

What you're talking about is a Quake TC for Doom (I think there is a patch wad like that), plus the ability to look up/down in Doom.
Making those sprites isn't too hard, you can make the process automated. Just write a little program that loads a Quake model, renders it from 8 different sides and takes a snapshot of each rendering. Voila, there's yer sprites.

And Quake does support sprites, but they're not used a lot. Rocket explosions (the central 'poof' part, not the particles) and those light bulbs in the Azure Agony level are examples of sprites. You would have to add support for 8-sided sprites that change depending on your view direction, but that's pretty simple.

But you're right - what you'd get would essentially be Doom with simplified Quake content. That's not necessarily a bad thing though, that's how they got Duke Nukem 3D to work on the Mega Drive after all.

matteus
11-24-2009, 07:27 AM
heh if i'm correct it's the the memory required for the sprites! Polygon models are made up of a number of point based integers which requires less memory (minus the textures). Is that right chilly?

Chilly Willy
11-24-2009, 01:19 PM
heh if i'm correct it's the the memory required for the sprites! Polygon models are made up of a number of point based integers which requires less memory (minus the textures). Is that right chilly?

Yeah, the space is better devoted to textures. Oh, he's right about the sprite support. I'd forgotten certain things (like the rocket explosions) were done as sprites. The primary advantage of sprites is speed - they're much faster to draw than a 3D object. That's why Doom 64 uses sprites still - they wanted the game to be as fast as possible, even when tons of bad guys are on screen. If you ever noticed, Quake doesn't throw tons of bad guys at you like Doom did. It's because too many 3D bad guys slowed it down too much.

mrbigreddog
11-24-2009, 03:30 PM
Well, as long as it doesn't get TOO silly, threads like this can be kinda fun. But, first request for Quake 3 gets my foot up their ***. :D

How about Halo32x?!!! ;)


Yeah, the space is better devoted to textures. Oh, he's right about the sprite support. I'd forgotten certain things (like the rocket explosions) were done as sprites. The primary advantage of sprites is speed - they're much faster to draw than a 3D object. That's why Doom 64 uses sprites still - they wanted the game to be as fast as possible, even when tons of bad guys are on screen. If you ever noticed, Quake doesn't throw tons of bad guys at you like Doom did. It's because too many 3D bad guys slowed it down too much.

I think it would be cool to see Quake with 2 sided enemy sprites like WOLF 3D (if I'm not mistaken) Where they are always facing you and shooting or walking away... Did it have them walking left and right?!

Devil N
11-24-2009, 03:57 PM
Wolf3D's enemies were also 8-sided, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe that one or two console ports didn't, but the original PC version had enemies looking in all directions.

Now that we're talking about it, it sounds like a fun experiment to change Quake's enemies to 2D sprites. I might try doing it sometime soon. It's probably easiest for me to do it with Quake 2, since I have already written MD2 loading code before, and I have Q2's engine source compiling and running on my PC. If I can find a couple of free evenings, you'll hear from me again.

mrbigreddog
11-24-2009, 04:29 PM
Wolf3D's enemies were also 8-sided, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe that one or two console ports didn't, but the original PC version had enemies looking in all directions.

Now that we're talking about it, it sounds like a fun experiment to change Quake's enemies to 2D sprites. I might try doing it sometime soon. It's probably easiest for me to do it with Quake 2, since I have already written MD2 loading code before, and I have Q2's engine source compiling and running on my PC. If I can find a couple of free evenings, you'll hear from me again.

OH WOW! Your right! Maybe it was one of the ports!
http://sdb.drshnaps.com/sheets/Misc/Misc/Other/Wolf3D-Guard.gif
On a side note... Wolf3D for Jaguar looks AWESOME!!! High Quality Sprites!
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dJPZOPutBT8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dJPZOPutBT8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Chilly Willy
11-24-2009, 07:38 PM
That's the main issue with Wolf32X - since it uses the original data files, you have the original "low detail" sprites and walls. Some newer commercial conversions (not open source) used updated graphics (and sound). Oh well. At least Wolf32X has all the directions on the sprites.

Defolto
12-23-2009, 12:42 AM
oh its more than possible you figure the 32x has two 32 bit processers plus the combined power of the sega genesis is more than enough not to mention if you combined the sega cds processing power as well it would be pretty had to pull off though.

SCD32X
09-25-2012, 02:42 PM
Hi Everyone :)
I'm new here. I just Googled "Quake 32X" and I landed here.
I was just curious, is the project still alive ?

Chilly Willy
09-25-2012, 02:44 PM
Hi Everyone :)
I'm new here. I just Googled "Quake 32X" and I landed here.
I was just curious, is the project still alive ?

Yes, but it will be awhile before I can work on it... still getting Wolf3D and Doom going the way I like. A new update of Wolf32X will be the next thing out, then Doom, and then we'll see about what's after that.

saturndual32
09-25-2012, 03:55 PM
Yes, but it will be awhile before I can work on it... still getting Wolf3D and Doom going the way I like. A new update of Wolf32X will be the next thing out, then Doom, and then we'll see about what's after that.


Yippie kay yay to that Chilly Willy. Just tried your Wolf3D demo on my console, and its awesome. So, about Doom, i am sure the game engine is gonna rock, but what about the music?, are you gonna kick the official 32X Doom ass with your renditions, or what?

sheath
09-25-2012, 04:03 PM
Whenever Chilly releases the real Doom 32X I am going to have to hole up for a couple of weeks. It'll be ugly and awesome at the same time.

VGTM
09-25-2012, 04:15 PM
Nothing is impossible, son!

Chilly Willy
09-25-2012, 04:49 PM
Yippie kay yay to that Chilly Willy. Just tried your Wolf3D demo on my console, and its awesome. So, about Doom, i am sure the game engine is gonna rock, but what about the music?, are you gonna kick the official 32X Doom ass with your renditions, or what?

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?3317-32X-PWM-sound&p=517982&viewfull=1#post517982

mick_aka
09-25-2012, 07:04 PM
I'd donate cold hard cash for a 32X port of Rise of the Triad, that would rock my little world.

madmax2069
09-25-2012, 07:10 PM
See, its things like this which has me question on what cart to buy, the Mega everdrive, or the Neo. Would the Mega ED have the same ram expanding function to be able to run quake, or would this be only possible on the Neo cart. The one thing that has me wanting to buy the Mega ED is its possible future feature of xband like online play.

saturndual32
09-25-2012, 09:29 PM
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?3317-32X-PWM-sound&p=517982&viewfull=1#post517982

Just tried it on my console, AWESOMENESS!. Especially E2M1, i loved it, it really got me in the mood for some Doom action, but i aint gonna play any Doom until yours is out, doesnt matter how long it takes. Are the tracks from Episode 1 of Doom gonna be there too?, they are my favorites. So the game is gonna play 12 channel tracks, plus the sound effects?

Chilly Willy
09-25-2012, 10:07 PM
Yes, like I posted in the other thread, I'll post the other episodes and Wolf3D later.

SCD32X
10-21-2012, 09:20 AM
I searched a little bit on the web and I found out that Quake 1 uses 200-500 polys per scene.
Knowing that the 32X is capable of 50K textured polygons/s this means that every scene should have at most 1666 polys to render smoothly at 30 frames per second (30 * 1666 = 50000)
The additional processing power between the 200-500 Polys needed by Quake and the 1666 Polys that the 32X is capable of, could used for the game logic and other stuff...
The only problem as Chilly Willy stated is that 256K of RAM is too tight for Quake !

Drakon
10-21-2012, 09:36 AM
That would be friggen sick.


I'd donate cold hard cash for a 32X port of Rise of the Triad, that would rock my little world.

sheath
10-21-2012, 10:29 AM
I searched a little bit on the web and I found out that Quake 1 uses 200-500 polys per scene.
Knowing that the 32X is capable of 50K textured polygons/s this means that every scene should have at most 1666 polys to render smoothly at 30 frames per second (30 * 1666 = 50000)
The additional processing power between the 200-500 Polys needed by Quake and the 1666 Polys that the 32X is capable of, could used for the game logic and other stuff...
The only problem as Chilly Willy stated is that 256K of RAM is too tight for Quake !

50,000 polygons per second would be the theoretical maximum non-textured polygon throughput. I think Chilly has said before that the real world performance was around 25,000 polygons per second maximum, which puts the 32X roughly on par or superior to the 3DO (20k-25k, 30k theoretical) and Jaguar (20k-40k, 10k in most games and official specs). Also, since RAM is the strictest constraint on the 32X's SH-2s combined ~45MIPS, we can figure out what one 128KB frame buffer can use.

The first issue is the actual frame buffer RAM needed. 320x224x4bits (for color) is over 35840 bytes or 35KB, leaving 93KB for Polygons. Provided a software polygon is 40bytes standard, and 93KB is 95232 Bytes, 2380 polygons can fill one SH-2's frame buffer every 1/60th per second at 320x224 4-bit color. I'm sure I'm missing something, because no 32X games showed that many polygons, but it seems like the SH-2's ability to render polygons and manage other resources simultaneously would limit the system's capabilities before memory. Even at 320x224*8bit color there is still enough room for 1484 40byte polygons per frame.

What am I missing?

Chilly Willy
10-21-2012, 02:29 PM
The 32X frame buffer is 128KBytes per frame (256 KBytes total). It also only has three modes you can use: 8-bit palette mode, 8-bit palette run-length encoded mode, and 15-bit direct color mode. For games like Doom and Quake, you'd use 8-bit mode as that's what they used. You could alter the renderer to run in direct color mode, but then you're writing twice the data when the game doesn't need it.

The next thing is while the fill rate allows you to write the entire screen at more than 60 FPS, most 3D engines have a certain amount of overdraw - they write pixels more than once. For example, a simple engine using the painter algorithm draws the furthest polys first, then closer polys. Entire polys may be overdrawn as it does so. In an extreme example, perhaps the only poly that mattered was the one right in front of the camera, while the hundreds/thousands of other polys drawn meant nothing as they are behind that one poly.

The advance in 3D has mainly been about the most efficient way to represent and process the data so that overdraw is minimized, as well as how to deal with real-time effects like lighting and shadows.

The next issue on the 32X is dividing the tasks up amongst the processors so that no one processor is doing too much. That's one thing I keep going back to the Yeti demo to work on - my next version of Yeti will split the 3D calculations and rendering so that the slave handles the rendering part as well as the audio. Simply using one SH2 to do both limits the speed.

SCD32X
10-21-2012, 04:02 PM
The 32X frame buffer is 128KBytes per frame (256 KBytes total). It also only has three modes you can use: 8-bit palette mode, 8-bit palette run-length encoded mode, and 15-bit direct color mode. For games like Doom and Quake, you'd use 8-bit mode as that's what they used. You could alter the renderer to run in direct color mode, but then you're writing twice the data when the game doesn't need it.

The next thing is while the fill rate allows you to write the entire screen at more than 60 FPS, most 3D engines have a certain amount of overdraw - they write pixels more than once. For example, a simple engine using the painter algorithm draws the furthest polys first, then closer polys. Entire polys may be overdrawn as it does so. In an extreme example, perhaps the only poly that mattered was the one right in front of the camera, while the hundreds/thousands of other polys drawn meant nothing as they are behind that one poly.

The advance in 3D has mainly been about the most efficient way to represent and process the data so that overdraw is minimized, as well as how to deal with real-time effects like lighting and shadows.

The next issue on the 32X is dividing the tasks up amongst the processors so that no one processor is doing too much. That's one thing I keep going back to the Yeti demo to work on - my next version of Yeti will split the 3D calculations and rendering so that the slave handles the rendering part as well as the audio. Simply using one SH2 to do both limits the speed.

Interesting ... Isn't it possible to channel all the Audio thru the Genny ?

for the rendering balancing, there are two interesting concepts in webserver load balancing (http://www.peplink.com/technology/load-balancing-algorithms/) that might be useful (although I don't know how relevant is this to 32X coding ..) :


1:1 weightened load balancing : for example, every Nth rendering is done by the SH2 one and every Nth + 1 rendering is done by the SH2 two
Lowest Latency : The next instruction is computed by the first available SH2

sheath
10-21-2012, 05:09 PM
The 32X frame buffer is 128KBytes per frame (256 KBytes total). It also only has three modes you can use: 8-bit palette mode, 8-bit palette run-length encoded mode, and 15-bit direct color mode. For games like Doom and Quake, you'd use 8-bit mode as that's what they used. You could alter the renderer to run in direct color mode, but then you're writing twice the data when the game doesn't need it.

The next thing is while the fill rate allows you to write the entire screen at more than 60 FPS, most 3D engines have a certain amount of overdraw - they write pixels more than once. For example, a simple engine using the painter algorithm draws the furthest polys first, then closer polys. Entire polys may be overdrawn as it does so. In an extreme example, perhaps the only poly that mattered was the one right in front of the camera, while the hundreds/thousands of other polys drawn meant nothing as they are behind that one poly.

The advance in 3D has mainly been about the most efficient way to represent and process the data so that overdraw is minimized, as well as how to deal with real-time effects like lighting and shadows.

The next issue on the 32X is dividing the tasks up amongst the processors so that no one processor is doing too much. That's one thing I keep going back to the Yeti demo to work on - my next version of Yeti will split the 3D calculations and rendering so that the slave handles the rendering part as well as the audio. Simply using one SH2 to do both limits the speed.

Okay, so assuming that the 8-bit modes are the same as an 8-bit VGA mode in the frame buffer (I'm pretty sure they aren't), roughly 70KB is taken up by the frame buffer. That is still enough more RAM for over 40k polygons per second, but maybe not textures. Direct Color Mode would need more frame buffer than is available per frame though, so I must not be using the right equation. (L*W*Color Depth). I've seen you discuss this with KoolKitty89, but I don't know where.

Chilly Willy
10-21-2012, 05:15 PM
Interesting ... Isn't it possible to channel all the Audio thru the Genny ?

The PWM requires software mixing, and the 68000 isn't fast enough for that. You would be stuck with FM music and digital sound... like Doom, and you can see how much people care for that. ;) :D



for the rendering balancing, there are two interesting concepts in webserver load balancing (http://www.peplink.com/technology/load-balancing-algorithms/) that might be useful (although I don't know how relevant is this to 32X coding ..) :


1:1 weightened load balancing : for example, every Nth rendering is done by the SH2 one and every Nth + 1 rendering is done by the SH2 two
Lowest Latency : The next instruction is computed by the first available SH2


The first might be doable, but you'd have to put the render buffers in ram since the frame buffer only switches on the vertical blank. Since you can only switch on the vertical blank, you either buffer in ram, or wait on the vertical blank before starting on the next frame. So that makes the memory tighter.

Given that one SH2 is already doing the audio, it makes more sense to have it do tasks that could be done in parallel with tasks on the other SH2. For something like a 3D game, that means when the first SH2 calculates the poly to render, you delegate that task to the other SH2 while the first continues with caculating the next poly... or something similar.

Barone
10-21-2012, 05:27 PM
which puts the 32X roughly on par or superior to the 3DO (20k-25k, 30k theoretical)
Are you sure about this?
Is there any source to those 3DO numbers? They sound just too low.

sheath
10-21-2012, 05:31 PM
Are you sure about this?
Is there any source to those 3DO numbers? They sound just too low.

It's the only numbers I've found so far, and I haven't seen them challenged yet. The sources aren't official though, they were on the old 3DO webring that is down now and from frequently wrong FAQs and classicgaming.com. I'd love to see more recent RE docs, but those don't usually talk about max throughput.

sheath
10-21-2012, 05:33 PM
Not great sources but all I could find at the time, and nobody has challenged them before. They came from FAQs, the 3DO webring and classicgaming.com. I would love to see more recent RE docs on the 3DO, but they rarely talk about max throughput.

sheath
10-21-2012, 05:34 PM
Not great sources but all I could find at the time, and nobody has challenged them before. They came from FAQs, the 3DO web ring and classic gaming. I would love to see more recent RE docs on the 3DO, but they rarely talk about max throughput.

Barone
10-21-2012, 06:01 PM
Yeah, I know, it's hard to find any docs telling much about the 3DO capabilities.
But it's just that looking at games like The Need For Speed, Lucienne's Quest, Star Fighter, Po'ed... They don't seem to be THAT far from most of the Saturn and Playstation games released at the same time and I also found them WAY better than most of the 32X and Jaguar 3D games (especially when compared to the fake-64-bit one).

Is there any feasible way to count polygons in 3DO games?

sheath
10-21-2012, 06:18 PM
Yeah, I know, it's hard to find any docs telling much about the 3DO capabilities.
But it's just that looking at games like The Need For Speed, Lucienne's Quest, Star Fighter, Po'ed... They don't seem to be THAT far from most of the Saturn and Playstation games released at the same time and I also found them WAY better than most of the 32X and Jaguar 3D games (especially when compared to the fake-64-bit one).

Is there any feasible way to count polygons in 3DO games?

I'm not sure if the 3DO emulator(s?) show vectors, but that is only part of the numbers needed. I'm running dry on any way to calculate polygon throughput on any platform. Nobody seems to know how to do it, it seems like it is just a matter of trial and error for each and every developer as to how well their project performs. I would even be relatively satisfied with an equation that takes the MIPS rating of a processor and converts that to a vacuum spec for how many 40byte polygons can be generated per frame. Also, Chilly is saying that all of these renderers can display objects faster than 1/60th of a second. So their polygons per frame number may not be the same as their polygons per second number, and it all comes down to fillrate.

If you look at Need for Speed on 3DO and consider how much faster the Saturn and PS1 games are you can kind of see how the Saturn and PS1 are a generational leap that way.

Star Fighter is amazing and way worse on the PS1 and especially Saturn for sure, but it looks like it is a 2D-like background with polygons popping up on it as the objects approach the screen. Without the flat ground going to the horizon it wouldn't have that many polygons on screen. The reason the PS1 and Saturn games look so bad is because they don't have the flat floors and the polygons disappear into a grey "fog" background instead of stars and floor. It's like if Sonic R didn't have the VDP2 floors, it would look horrible.

Barone
10-25-2012, 10:33 PM
I'm not sure if the 3DO emulator(s?) show vectors, but that is only part of the numbers needed. I'm running dry on any way to calculate polygon throughput on any platform. Nobody seems to know how to do it, it seems like it is just a matter of trial and error for each and every developer as to how well their project performs. I would even be relatively satisfied with an equation that takes the MIPS rating of a processor and converts that to a vacuum spec for how many 40byte polygons can be generated per frame. Also, Chilly is saying that all of these renderers can display objects faster than 1/60th of a second. So their polygons per frame number may not be the same as their polygons per second number, and it all comes down to fillrate.
To be honest, I'd be happy with a 3DO emulator with proper debugging functions that would help me to hack some games.



If you look at Need for Speed on 3DO and consider how much faster the Saturn and PS1 games are you can kind of see how the Saturn and PS1 are a generational leap that way.
OK. We're speculating here, since from my first post actually... :p
But I think that we shouldn't take that sort of argument as a definitive factor in our judgement.

The PS1 version of NFS was released almost one year and a half after the 3DO version. And the Saturn one was released exactly two years after the 3DO's. We can speculate that the developers had improved/optimized the NFS engine or just improved their programming skills for 3D games in that point or that the company was surely more experienced with 3D games as a whole. Probably not enough to double the fps on the same hardware but I think that it's not crazy to imagine that a NFS SE release for the 3DO in 1996 could run clearly better than the original game did back in 1994.
Heck, let's just remember about Saturn's Daytona USA released in 1995 and Daytona USA CE released one year and a half after that. That's what I'm talking about. It's the very same hardware but one could say, judging by the FPS and draw distance of those games, that the first was running in a hardware capable of 50,000 polygons per second maximum while the last was running in a machine capable of 70,000 polygons per second maximum (I'm just "guessing" these numbers).

It's way easier to develop 3D games for the PS1 (3DO and Saturn share similar obstacles in terms of drawing polygons in a 3D world), so maybe I'd like restrict our comparison with the Saturn.

Take GT 24 (1998) on the Saturn as another example. The game runs at what, uh, 20fps? I can point you several PS1 games of the same time with better graphics running at clearly higher fps.
But when we take Street Racer, the Saturn version runs just as fast as the PS1's but with better graphics (neat extra effects). In this case, the developers had declared in an interview that they coded the Saturn version in pure assembly since it would be impossible to take the most of its hardware coding the game in C.

Getting back to the 3DO, weren't developers saying during its prime days that all games were coded in C since due to its SDK and hardware architecture (in this case similar to what happened with PS1, probably something that explains why both consoles had such a high ratio of from/to PC ports compared to the Saturn)? Also, weren't the same guys saying that it was a pain in the butt to create fully 3D games for the system ("So funny I just found this. I'm the founder of Morpheus Interactive in Utah who developed this game way back in 1994. The 3DO platform was so hard to create a true 3D simulation game (we liked to call it 2 1/2 DO ;-) ... it had no horse power so we did all we could do which why frankly it looked so horrible and was so limited. We really should have scrapped the full 360 true 3D environment and just follow a limited path with no more visual range than 180 degrees. Oh well those were the days!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V2jrBAOTZg))?
So, I'm just trying to point that maybe we should consider possible an improved SDK (capable of producing better optimized code) in 1996 making the 3D games developed with it running faster on the same 3DO hardware than they would be if using the old 1994 SDK. Or just that some skilled and devoted developers using pure assembly or a customized SDK (focused only in 3D game development, for an example) could squeeze the hardware a lot more than the 1994's NFS did.

As another example and a case you know better than me, BC Racers runs faster on the Sega CD than on the 3DO and on the 32X. According to the interview that you and your friend conducted with that ex-Core Design employee, the developers of the original Sega CD version weren't involved with the other versions ("To be honest, I can't really remember exactly how the Mega-CD did it's scaling and rotation. I was handed the "engine" from another game (I can't remember the name , but it was a game where you had some robot and were stomping about on a "mode 7" style floor). We built BC racers around the engine, but the bosses wanted the environments FULL of sprites, so it ended up running quite slowly!! (Look at the desert levels, they run quite fast compared to say, the Jungle levels)
The 32x version of BC racers was handled by a different team at Core, I finished off the MegaCD version and went straight on to doing Blam! for the Playstation/Saturn. Toby Gard (who designed and did gfx for Bcracers went on to do Tombraider at the same time!). I don't really know any details about the 32x version, but it should have been better given the hardware it had!!! (The 3dO version was appaulling, handeled by the same team !!!! It was so slow and chuggy!!!)
I'll pop back later with more info...." (http://s4.zetaboards.com/Whip_Ass_Gaming/single/?p=18695&t=453314)) and we know how much difference it provoked in the final result.
n0nzASlj3XY
Also, I can speculate even more based on his other quote: "I was straight on to the Playstation at that point (even had to learn C in a couple of days !!! hehe)". IMO it clearly indicates that the Sega CD version was developed totally in assembly and, given that the 3DO was handled by another team, it increases the chance to say that the 3DO version was coded in C. I believe we agree that the 3DO was far more powerful than the Sega CD but...

Stacking even more bs in my post, I bet that the official documents/numbers regarding the 3DO's capabilities for 3D graphics date from 1993 or 1994. At that point, even if the 3DO executives and marketing fellas were really serious guys compromised only with the truth (and they certainly weren't), the best that the 3DO company could do to provide such numbers was: a) "do the math" and use some sort of equation to theorize about the polygon counting based on processing specs of the 3DO hardware; and we seem to fail at finding/determining such equation even today thus making me believe that I can easily invalidate or, at least, consider very questionable such numbers. b) ask for some of their developers to determine it using software tests. But which software? Probably something developed with their first working version/beta SDK? Again, based on all the bs that I've presented above, I can easily invalidate/find questionable those numbers since the software used as base for the calc was probably far from being well/very well optmized for the 3DO hardware.

Expanding a bit more this last segment, by the end of 1996 the 3DO was taking a painful beating from PS1 and Saturn while there was already a working version of the M2 hardware (the black box that some people say to be the exactly same hardware of the "final" version). It isn't totally crazy to say that the 3DO company wasn't pushing the original 3DO anymore and probably had dissipated most/all of the efforts to improve the 3DO's SDK in early 1996 or late 1995. Their project for better 3D games was the M2 (and showing things waaaaaayyyy better than one could have dreamed about with the 3DO IMO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLGfeDHIYo) and not the squeeze of the original 3DO hardware...

Considering all that, I wouldn't have stated, like you did, that the 32X had similar polygon count to the 3DO and thus putting the last far behind the Saturn and PS1. We just don't have enough info to affirm something like that and actually I think that the existent games pointed the opposite of your statement.

Chilly Willy
10-26-2012, 12:13 AM
The biggest problem with the 3DO was the lousy CPU - remember that ARM processors of the time weren't nearly as powerful as they are now. The 12.5 MHz ARM chip in the 3DO is BARELY faster than a 16 MHz 68000... and worse in some ways (no hardware divide and really lousy hardware multiply support among other problems). The graphics chips are really over-powered for such a low power CPU. They had to use a math coprocessor to get around the lousy math support.

Barone
10-26-2012, 12:46 AM
The biggest problem with the 3DO was the lousy CPU - remember that ARM processors of the time weren't nearly as powerful as they are now. The 12.5 MHz ARM chip in the 3DO is BARELY faster than a 16 MHz 68000... and worse in some ways (no hardware divide and really lousy hardware multiply support among other problems). The graphics chips are really over-powered for such a low power CPU. They had to use a math coprocessor to get around the lousy math support.
I always had the same opinion and it bugs me even more when I remember its high-ass release price. I mean, if you're selling THE expensive console I suppose that it will give me THE CPU or at least a very powerful one.

Anyway, even considering what you said, some other examples make me think that their SDK (the compiler that they used to be more specific) wasn't very good in terms of generating optimized code or all the developers of the company that supported the system sucked badly (but I'd bet in the first hypothesis).
Samurai Shodown, for an example, runs at something like 25-30fps even when the action is zoomed in and I can really notice the lower framerate compared to the Sega CD version (you can argue about the lacking details but, heck, the Sega CD version actually runs mostly on the Genesis CPU). Even the Genesis version, which runs in permanent slowdown but has the judge like the 3DO one, seem to have a higher fps in more intense situations.

The Eye of Typhoon runs at 20fps or lower and, while it has the zooming effect, the amount of animation (both for characters and backgrounds) isn't superior to Eternal Champions on the Sega CD, which has no signs of slowdown and it's a very fast game.
Out Of This World also seems to run with higher fps on the Sega CD and I don't think the digitized backgrounds can explain that.
Doom is also atrociously choppy.

OTOH you have games that showed a much better 3DO, like Star Fighter, Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Super Wing Commander, Wing Commander III and Wolfenstein 3D; games that make me think it wasn't so weak as most of its games suggested.

saturndual32
10-26-2012, 04:23 PM
Argh, 3DO Samurai Showdown, it might look virtually arcade perfect in still pictures, but the frame rate is so choppy (in my opinion), that it ruins the game for me. Between this game and the lack of parallax on 3DO SSF2X, i used to think the console wasnt too good at 2d. Apparently in the case of SSF2X, the lack of parallax is due to it being based on the FMTOWNS port of that game, and that version also lacked the parallax effect. But i remember on a Game Fan magazine interview, with the creators of 3DO, were they conceded that the lack of parallax on 3DO SS2X, was hardware issue, and went on to say that the M2 would have no such constrains in 2D. Anyone else remember that interview?
Anyway, earlier this year, koolkitty often mentioned that the 3DO, should actually be a pretty powerful system in 2d for its era, and his walls of text, convinced me about it, hehe.

sheath
10-26-2012, 05:47 PM
OK. We're speculating here, since from my first post actually... :p
But I think that we shouldn't take that sort of argument as a definitive factor in our judgement.

The PS1 version of NFS was released almost one year and a half after the 3DO version. And the Saturn one was released exactly two years after the 3DO's. We can speculate that the developers had improved/optimized the NFS engine or just improved their programming skills for 3D games in that point or that the company was surely more experienced with 3D games as a whole. Probably not enough to double the fps on the same hardware but I think that it's not crazy to imagine that a NFS SE release for the 3DO in 1996 could run clearly better than the original game did back in 1994.

It isn't just the port/upgrade of Need for Speed though, even Saturn Daytona runs faster (speed wise) with more track side detail and cars on track than anything the 3DO ever managed. Then we have developer quotes from Summer 1995 where they discuss that they were "happy" with 80,000 polygons per second on the Playstation or Saturn and nobody claims the 3DO would ever be capable of more than 30,000 per second.


Heck, let's just remember about Saturn's Daytona USA released in 1995 and Daytona USA CE released one year and a half after that. That's what I'm talking about. It's the very same hardware but one could say, judging by the FPS and draw distance of those games, that the first was running in a hardware capable of 50,000 polygons per second maximum while the last was running in a machine capable of 70,000 polygons per second maximum (I'm just "guessing" these numbers).

It's way easier to develop 3D games for the PS1 (3DO and Saturn share similar obstacles in terms of drawing polygons in a 3D world), so maybe I'd like restrict our comparison with the Saturn.

We know that Saturn Daytona USA ran at 60,000 polygons per second ~15-20FPS. So if Daytona Circuit Edition runs at 30FPS and only achieves the better draw distance by taking the polygons out of the cars, it is still ~90,000-120,000 polygons per second just because of the higher (and steady) framerate. The same goes for speed, after all if you can clear an entire track segment and need to load all new track details in less than a second, that is also more polygons per second.



Take GT 24 (1998) on the Saturn as another example. The game runs at what, uh, 20fps? I can point you several PS1 games of the same time with better graphics running at clearly higher fps.
But when we take Street Racer, the Saturn version runs just as fast as the PS1's but with better graphics (neat extra effects). In this case, the developers had declared in an interview that they coded the Saturn version in pure assembly since it would be impossible to take the most of its hardware coding the game in C.

Yeah, if the 3DO had allowed for developers to code in Assembly, and if sales justified such an effort, we definitely would have seen more optimized games than we actually saw. Similarly, if more Saturn games were coded in Assembly by talented developers we would have seen a very dramatic scale from something like Die Hard Trilogy to things like Burning Rangers and Panzer Dragoon Saga even among third parties. I haven't ever seen a list of PS1 games that were coded in Assembly but I understood that most of the high end titles after about 2000 were made that way.



Getting back to the 3DO, weren't developers saying during its prime days that all games were coded in C since due to its SDK and hardware architecture (in this case similar to what happened with PS1, probably something that explains why both consoles had such a high ratio of from/to PC ports compared to the Saturn)? Also, weren't the same guys saying that it was a pain in the butt to create fully 3D games for the system ("So funny I just found this. I'm the founder of Morpheus Interactive in Utah who developed this game way back in 1994. The 3DO platform was so hard to create a true 3D simulation game (we liked to call it 2 1/2 DO ;-) ... it had no horse power so we did all we could do which why frankly it looked so horrible and was so limited. We really should have scrapped the full 360 true 3D environment and just follow a limited path with no more visual range than 180 degrees. Oh well those were the days!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V2jrBAOTZg))?
So, I'm just trying to point that maybe we should consider possible an improved SDK (capable of producing better optimized code) in 1996 making the 3D games developed with it running faster on the same 3DO hardware than they would be if using the old 1994 SDK. Or just that some skilled and devoted developers using pure assembly or a customized SDK (focused only in 3D game development, for an example) could squeeze the hardware a lot more than the 1994's NFS did.

Interesting quote. I think the trade off with development kits, regardless of what programming language they use, is uniform results. More below.



As another example and a case you know better than me, BC Racers runs faster on the Sega CD than on the 3DO and on the 32X. According to the interview that you and your friend conducted with that ex-Core Design employee, the developers of the original Sega CD version weren't involved with the other versions ("To be honest, I can't really remember exactly how the Mega-CD did it's scaling and rotation. I was handed the "engine" from another game (I can't remember the name , but it was a game where you had some robot and were stomping about on a "mode 7" style floor). We built BC racers around the engine, but the bosses wanted the environments FULL of sprites, so it ended up running quite slowly!! (Look at the desert levels, they run quite fast compared to say, the Jungle levels)
The 32x version of BC racers was handled by a different team at Core, I finished off the MegaCD version and went straight on to doing Blam! for the Playstation/Saturn. Toby Gard (who designed and did gfx for Bcracers went on to do Tombraider at the same time!). I don't really know any details about the 32x version, but it should have been better given the hardware it had!!! (The 3dO version was appaulling, handeled by the same team !!!! It was so slow and chuggy!!!)
I'll pop back later with more info...." (http://s4.zetaboards.com/Whip_Ass_Gaming/single/?p=18695&t=453314)) and we know how much difference it provoked in the final result.
n0nzASlj3XY[/YOUTUBE]
Also, I can speculate even more based on his other quote: "I was straight on to the Playstation at that point (even had to learn C in a couple of days !!! hehe)". IMO it clearly indicates that the Sega CD version was developed totally in assembly and, given that the 3DO was handled by another team, it increases the chance to say that the 3DO version was coded in C. I believe we agree that the 3DO was far more powerful than the Sega CD but...

Exactly, if more developers used the Battlecorps engine for Sega CD games we would have seen a wider variety of "scaler" style games on the platform but with the same limitations as BC Racers and Battlecorps have in number of objects on screen before frame loss. It is the same with development kits, when everything is made for the kit, the only difference is in game design working better or worse with the engine.



Stacking even more bs in my post, I bet that the official documents/numbers regarding the 3DO's capabilities for 3D graphics date from 1993 or 1994. At that point, even if the 3DO executives and marketing fellas were really serious guys compromised only with the truth (and they certainly weren't), the best that the 3DO company could do to provide such numbers was: a) "do the math" and use some sort of equation to theorize about the polygon counting based on processing specs of the 3DO hardware; and we seem to fail at finding/determining such equation even today thus making me believe that I can easily invalidate or, at least, consider very questionable such numbers. b) ask for some of their developers to determine it using software tests. But which software? Probably something developed with their first working version/beta SDK? Again, based on all the bs that I've presented above, I can easily invalidate/find questionable those numbers since the software used as base for the calc was probably far from being well/very well optmized for the 3DO hardware.

Sure, but we have the problem of no 3DO developer claiming Saturn or PS1 rendering capabilities, and plenty of Saturn and PS1 games and developers showing the system's advanced capabilities.



Expanding a bit more this last segment, by the end of 1996 the 3DO was taking a painful beating from PS1 and Saturn while there was already a working version of the M2 hardware (the black box that some people say to be the exactly same hardware of the "final" version). It isn't totally crazy to say that the 3DO company wasn't pushing the original 3DO anymore and probably had dissipated most/all of the efforts to improve the 3DO's SDK in early 1996 or late 1995. Their project for better 3D games was the M2 (and showing things waaaaaayyyy better than one could have dreamed about with the 3DO IMO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLGfeDHIYo) and not the squeeze of the original 3DO hardware...

Considering all that, I wouldn't have stated, like you did, that the 32X had similar polygon count to the 3DO and thus putting the last far behind the Saturn and PS1. We just don't have enough info to affirm something like that and actually I think that the existent games pointed the opposite of your statement.

Yeah, by 1995 they were starting to focus on the M2 over the M1. But the fact remains that developers aren't happy unless they feel like they are pushing the system, and Need for Speed, Road Rash, and Star Fighter certainly did that. The mystery of PS1/Saturn Star Fighter is solved, they were ported from the PC version of SF3000. Road Rash is arguably best on the 3DO and Saturn, but smoothest on the Saturn. Need for Speed is nearly twice as fast on Saturn and PS1. Also, Total Eclipse Turbo is faster on PS1 even thoguh the textures suffer (as usual). Solar Eclipse on Saturn is technically better than either version of Total Eclipse, but I'd put it in the realm of possibility for the 3DO.

In 1995 I can see the 3DO keeping up in some ways, but not with Wipeout, Sega Rally or VF2. I can even see something like Black Fire on the 3DO with toned down detail levels. That old 3DO web ring I mentioned compared the 3DO's 12.5Mhz ARM 60 to a 25Mhz 68030 or a fast 386. I assumed they were exaggerating and Chilly's statement works with that. The 32X has two 23Mhz SH-2s and it can't come anywhere near Saturn or PS1 performance levels.

Chilly Willy
10-26-2012, 07:02 PM
That old 3DO web ring I mentioned compared the 3DO's 12.5Mhz ARM 60 to a 25Mhz 68030 or a fast 386. I assumed they were exaggerating and Chilly's statement works with that. The 32X has two 23Mhz SH-2s and it can't come anywhere near Saturn or PS1 performance levels.

Yes, claiming 68030 or "fast" 386 speed from that old ARM would be stretching it, to say the least. :)

The 32X can't match the Saturn or PS1 because it doesn't have a dedicated graphics chip. The best the "Super VDP" in the 32X could do was a simple line fill of a fixed color. All the rest must be done by software. Imagine how the 32X could have been had they used one SH2 and the VDP1 from the Saturn - THAT would have kicked some ass! Of course, then it would have been competition for the Saturn, which they couldn't have. :(

But that's another path SEGA could have taken with the 32X that we've speculated about before. Personally, I like either a beefed up SEGA CD earlier, or the Jupiter/Saturn approach. I'd have bought a Jupiter in 95, then a full Saturn later.

sheath
10-26-2012, 07:22 PM
Yes, claiming 68030 or "fast" 386 speed from that old ARM would be stretching it, to say the least. :)

The 32X can't match the Saturn or PS1 because it doesn't have a dedicated graphics chip. The best the "Super VDP" in the 32X could do was a simple line fill of a fixed color. All the rest must be done by software. Imagine how the 32X could have been had they used one SH2 and the VDP1 from the Saturn - THAT would have kicked some ass! Of course, then it would have been competition for the Saturn, which they couldn't have. :(

But that's another path SEGA could have taken with the 32X that we've speculated about before. Personally, I like either a beefed up SEGA CD earlier, or the Jupiter/Saturn approach. I'd have bought a Jupiter in 95, then a full Saturn later.

Well, you ought to know me enough by now. Any path that doesn't claim Sega should have bought the PS1 or N64 hardware from some nether world and used it instead is definitely better. ;)

I liked the beefed up Sega CD for sure, I like a Genesis with the ability expand CRAM almost just as much. Though the colors never bothered me back then, I didn't start using S-Video for everything until 1994. But then, I like the 32X and think it was both timely and well designed aside from maybe the plastic facade. Even that is just a concession to all of the complaints about the mushroom shape, I guess mushrooms are offensive if they aren't in drinks or Mario games.

To me, a Genesis in 1989, a Sega CD for $300 in 1992, and a 32X for $160 in 1994 wasn't out of the ordinary at all. Seeing a $400 Saturn months after the 32X was odd though. On lawn mowing money I bought a Sega Master System in 1988, as well as an NES and Genesis in 1989, along with all of the peripherals and games I wanted. Then I decided to sell the Master System and NES and games to get a TG16 in 1990, which I sold in 1991 to get a Sega CD. I guess most kids didn't start working at eleven to fund their hobbies though.

Anyway, to me upgrades were a given and the more the merrier. I can't believe the Xbox 360 hasn't even had a RAM upgrade but it got this useless camera thingy that can't even pick up my five year old.

old man
10-28-2012, 06:00 PM
Well, you ought to know me enough by now. Any path that doesn't claim Sega should have bought the PS1 or N64 hardware from some nether world and used it instead is definitely better. ;)

I liked the beefed up Sega CD for sure, I like a Genesis with the ability expand CRAM almost just as much. Though the colors never bothered me back then, I didn't start using S-Video for everything until 1994. But then, I like the 32X and think it was both timely and well designed aside from maybe the plastic facade. Even that is just a concession to all of the complaints about the mushroom shape, I guess mushrooms are offensive if they aren't in drinks or Mario games.

To me, a Genesis in 1989, a Sega CD for $300 in 1992, and a 32X for $160 in 1994 wasn't out of the ordinary at all. Seeing a $400 Saturn months after the 32X was odd though. On lawn mowing money I bought a Sega Master System in 1988, as well as an NES and Genesis in 1989, along with all of the peripherals and games I wanted. Then I decided to sell the Master System and NES and games to get a TG16 in 1990, which I sold in 1991 to get a Sega CD. I guess most kids didn't start working at eleven to fund their hobbies though.

Anyway, to me upgrades were a given and the more the merrier. I can't believe the Xbox 360 hasn't even had a RAM upgrade but it got this useless camera thingy that can't even pick up my five year old.

lol I was starved for odd jobs when I was a kid with a videogame addiction. I remember when I was about 13/14 and I went to my dad's a few weeks that summer and worked for him mixing concrete. I was making $200 bucks a week sometimes. I was freaking rich! Blew it all on games. :p

Personally I think Sega should have made a better 32x/neptune or held out until their engineers could have built them something along the lines of an M2 level console. The Saturn was a good start, but it definitely needed more refinement

http://hardcoregaming101.net/konamishooters/polystars-4.jpg

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv1/battletryst/battletryst-shot2.jpeg

saturndual32
10-29-2012, 12:50 AM
Regardind the 3DO polygon performance, i remember an EA catalog special, that once came with Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine. There they compared PS1, SAT and 3DO, and they had the 3DO listed at 20,000 polygons per second, PS1 ant 90,000 and Saturn... i dont remember exactly but it was a little less than PS1. Those figures are more or less the same that Sheath has been mentioning. I should have that catalog somewhere, if i find it, i could scan it.

Moirai
10-29-2012, 01:01 AM
lol I was starved for odd jobs when I was a kid with a videogame addiction. I remember when I was about 13/14 and I went to my dad's a few weeks that summer and worked for him mixing concrete. I was making $200 bucks a week sometimes. I was freaking rich! Blew it all on games. :p
With that kind of money you could have bought a freakin NEO-GEO AES, then you could have been "that one kid". :p

old man
10-29-2012, 09:00 PM
Yeah, but I wouldn't have been able to afford any games for it. I was prudent about using my resources if nothing else. I even sold my original genesis because I couldn't support three systems with games. (Always regretted that even if it was one of the crap models with a non working reset)

topshelfgamer
04-02-2013, 01:57 PM
Probably two 32x's put on top of one another to split the load for a better framerate. :)

Actually I wonder whether it would be possible to actually do this. I mean the video layers just composite together along with Sega CD and Genesis layers in analog if I remember, if there were a way to separately address each system it might actually work.

Chilly Willy
04-02-2013, 03:39 PM
You don't need two 32Xes to get a playable frame rate. What you DO need is more memory, or the willingness to chop levels into small pieces and cut the textures so that it fits in the memory available.

sheath
04-02-2013, 03:48 PM
Most likely an FPS friendly engine like the Slave Driver engine on Saturn would be needed. Perhaps somebody could adapt the Doom engine for Quake, but something fully 3D would be ideal for Quake. Man I wish Sega devoted even minimal resources to porting Saturn exclusives to the 32X.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-02-2013, 04:39 PM
You don't need two 32Xes to get a playable frame rate. What you DO need is more memory, or the willingness to chop levels into small pieces and cut the textures so that it fits in the memory available.

But what if you stacked 32 32X's on top of each other to get 8MB of RAM?

NeoVamp
04-02-2013, 04:42 PM
Lets cheat, port it to the Mega Everdrive for fpga cpu powah's, then let the Genesis do the palette,
The Genesis palette is perfect for Quake, so much broooooooooooooooooooooooooooooown.

sheath
04-02-2013, 04:47 PM
http://www.freecoconutrecipes.com/images/Chocolate_Salty_Balls.jpg

Chilly Willy
04-02-2013, 06:53 PM
But what if you stacked 32 32X's on top of each other to get 8MB of RAM?

Nah! Let's make a hardware mod to the 32X itself to replace the 256KB SDRAM with 32MB SDRAM. :D

kool kitty89
04-02-2013, 07:28 PM
But what if you stacked 32 32X's on top of each other to get 8MB of RAM?
If that actually worked, you'd still only get 1MB of RAM total (not counting MD RAM) . . . and that's including the framebuffers. (only 512 kB usable work RAM) You'd have 8 Mb though. (Mega bits)

Chilly Willy
04-02-2013, 08:20 PM
If that actually worked, you'd still only get 1MB of RAM total (not counting MD RAM) . . . and that's including the framebuffers. (only 512 kB usable work RAM) You'd have 8 Mb though. (Mega bits)

No, each one has 256KB of SDRAM, so 32 32Xes would be 8MB. We don't discuss ram in Mbits. :p :D

sheath
04-02-2013, 08:25 PM
If I buy your lunch tomorrow can you make that little RAM problem go away Chilly. ;)

Guntz
04-02-2013, 10:01 PM
Include RAM on the eventual Quake cartridge, problem solved.

That or make an adapter.

Vector2013
04-02-2013, 10:12 PM
Who can help Chilly make some Jag ports to the 32 x in this section ? The money is ready. When chilly is ready, who is down ?

Guntz
04-03-2013, 03:48 AM
What ports did you have in mind? Most Jaguar games are like B-movies you know.

Vector2013
04-03-2013, 04:13 AM
What can be run at RAM of 32x, I'm hoping these.

01 Tempest2000
02 AvP
03 Checkered Flag (with fixes, like better control and stuff)
04 Fight for Life (hopefully fixed)
05 2600 Emulator

Post 354
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17839-What-games-did-you-want-to-see-most-on-the-32X/page24

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17839-What-games-did-you-want-to-see-most-on-the-32X&p=568075#post568075

TrekkiesUnite118
04-03-2013, 10:20 AM
Why in gods name would you want Checkered Flag and Fight for Life when there's already better games on the 32X with Virtua Racing Deluxe and Virtua Fighter?

Nightwolf
04-03-2013, 10:30 AM
+1 for AVP :)

NeoVamp
04-03-2013, 11:32 AM
+1 for AVP :)

Was the source for that even released? I remember whatshisface telling me about Chilly having a cd with sources, but did that include AVP?

Chilly Willy
04-03-2013, 01:26 PM
Was the source for that even released? I remember whatshisface telling me about Chilly having a cd with sources, but did that include AVP?

Yes. I posted a list elsewhere of what was on the disc, on AvP was one of the games with source.

NeoVamp
04-03-2013, 02:18 PM
Yes. I posted a list elsewhere of what was on the disc, on AvP was one of the games with source.

Interesting!

A 32X port would be rather pointless though, maybe PSP or Xbox would be nice, or Dreamcast.

the userbase would certainly be bigger then 32X http://www.sega-16.com/forum/images/icons/talking.gif

sheath
04-03-2013, 02:32 PM
I would wager that there are just as many in use 32Xs out there than original Xbox consoles.

Vector2013
04-03-2013, 03:50 PM
Today, 11:32 AM
NeoVamp

Was the source for that even released? I remember whatshisface telling me about Chilly having a cd with sources, but did that include AVP?


Chilly Willy
Yes. I posted a list elsewhere of what was on the disc, on AvP was one of the games with source.


I posted the link to list in my previous post and once in another thread to Neo.


What can be run at RAM of 32x, I'm hoping these.

01 Tempest2000
02 AvP
03 Checkered Flag (with fixes, like better control and stuff)
04 Fight for Life (hopefully fixed)
05 2600 Emulator

Post 354
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17839-What-games-did-you-want-to-see-most-on-the-32X/page24

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17839-What-games-did-you-want-to-see-most-on-the-32X&p=568075#post568075

The list is in first link above.



TrekkiesUnite118

Why in gods name would you want Checkered Flag and Fight for Life when there's already better games on the 32X with Virtua Racing Deluxe and Virtua Fighter?


Why have a great controlling version of Checkered Flag on 32 x ? It would be a little different than VR. There are many here who liked the idea of CF on 32, we discussed it in thread. Fight for Life will add something different than VF. AvP would be cool. Tempest2000 would be great. Check out the list for more.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-03-2013, 04:14 PM
Why have a great controlling version of Checkered Flag on 32 x ? It would be a little different than VR. There are many here who liked the idea of CF on 32, we discussed it in thread. Fight for Life will add something different than VF. AvP would be cool. Tempest2000 would be great. Check out the list for more.

There are far more worthy Jaguar games to port to the 32X than Checkered Flag and Fight for Life.

Vector2013
04-03-2013, 04:18 PM
There are far more worthy Jaguar games to port to the 32X than Checkered Flag and Fight for Life.

Look at the list and pick some then. Yes, I already listed games better than CF and FFL. (We can only use the source codes/games from chillys list and ones that "fit" for 32 x.) But, I'm paying for CF and FFL to made too, because me and others would like them on 32 x (as long as controls are fixed). The main game focused on, is Tempest2000 right now. My 2nd pick would be AvP. Be nice if others chipped in and help chilly out (with whatever).

TrekkiesUnite118
04-03-2013, 04:56 PM
And who exactly are you bribing paying to port these?

Vector2013
04-03-2013, 05:14 PM
Whoever is willing to do it.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17839-What-games-did-you-want-to-see-most-on-the-32X&p=568282&posted=1#post568282

So, if I donate to a person who did 32 x version of Wolfenstein as a thank you, or pay people who WORK to code Temptest2000 or others for 32 x the community will enjoy, that is a bribe ?

NeoVamp
04-03-2013, 08:03 PM
I would wager that there are just as many in use 32Xs out there than original Xbox consoles.

You'd lose that wager, xbox homebrew was huge, while there were never that many 32X owners who had both a 32X and a flashcart,
hell even now this forum is full of people who don't have a flashcart, the amount of people you reach is a lot lower then say Xbox and Dreamcast.

Chilly Willy
04-04-2013, 12:01 AM
I tend to work on things like the 32X because it's fun. I know there aren't that many people who actually benefit, but even a few is more than none. ;) :D

The thing to remember about porting Jaguar games is that they are usually mostly 68000 assembly language with some JRISC (GPU/DSP) assembly language. Almost nothing is C. That means a 68000 based console would be an easier platform to target. The 68000 would need little changes, and the JRISC assembly is pretty close to 68000 and SH2 in syntax (but will still need some work to translate). Any other platform means COMPLETELY translating ALL assembly into something the other platform can use... a lot more work for a port project.

One exception to the rule is Doom - that's mostly C for the main game logic (run on the 68000), with JRISC assembly for the rendering parts.

Vector2013
04-04-2013, 12:14 AM
I tend to work on things like the 32X because it's fun. I know there aren't that many people who actually benefit, but even a few is more than none. ;) :D

Exactly ! And more games (CF, FFL, T2K, AVP, Doom Jag) that actually have source codes and CAN be made/ported to the 32 x as people do ask "is there a game besides Wolfenstein to play on 32 x lately because it's hardware is unappreciated" , instead of fantasy port threads with no source codes, is better than nothing either.



The thing to remember about porting Jaguar games is that they are usually mostly 68000 assembly language with some JRISC (GPU/DSP) assembly language. Almost nothing is C. That means a 68000 based console would be an easier platform to target. The 68000 would need little changes, and the JRISC assembly is pretty close to 68000 and SH2 in syntax (but will still need some work to translate). Any other platform means COMPLETELY translating ALL assembly into something the other platform can use... a lot more work for a port project.

One exception to the rule is Doom - that's mostly C for the main game logic (run on the 68000), with JRISC assembly for the rendering parts.

Okay. Remember I'm not tech savy, but is it possible to add the 32 x (or snes music) of Doom on the 32 x but have the Jag graphics ? There are so many DC iso that replace no or crap or not great music with better music, http://www.theisozone.com/downloads/dreamcast/dreamcast-isos/the-king-of-fighters-2002-80s-remix/ , I always wondered if it's possible on cart too even at 4 bit and not whole song and maybe using loops ?

Chilly Willy
04-04-2013, 02:49 AM
Okay. Remember I'm not tech savy, but is it possible to add the 32 x (or snes music) of Doom on the 32 x but have the Jag graphics ? There are so many DC iso that replace no or crap or not great music with better music, http://www.theisozone.com/downloads/dreamcast/dreamcast-isos/the-king-of-fighters-2002-80s-remix/ , I always wondered if it's possible on cart too even at 4 bit and not whole song and maybe using loops ?

I've thought of making a 32X version of Jaguar Doom. The Jaguar Doom code IS the 32X Doom code as well (there's still the #ifdef MARS in the code), it's just missing the 32X init code, and the 32X render code. It would be interesting to try to make the Jaguar rendering work on the 32X... but remember that they use the BLITTER in the Jaguar version to help with the thousands mode rendering. That would need to be changed to SH2 code, which wouldn't be as fast.

Vector2013
04-04-2013, 02:54 AM
I've thought of making a 32X version of Jaguar Doom. The Jaguar Doom code IS the 32X Doom code as well (there's still the #ifdef MARS in the code), it's just missing the 32X init code, and the 32X render code. It would be interesting to try to make the Jaguar rendering work on the 32X... but remember that they use the BLITTER in the Jaguar version to help with the thousands mode rendering. That would need to be changed to SH2 code, which wouldn't be as fast.

Okay Chilly, very cool.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 10:56 AM
Whoever is willing to do it.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17839-What-games-did-you-want-to-see-most-on-the-32X&p=568282&posted=1#post568282

So, if I donate to a person who did 32 x version of Wolfenstein as a thank you, or pay people who WORK to code Temptest2000 or others for 32 x the community will enjoy, that is a bribe ?

Yeah, it pretty much is a bribe. You are saying "If you do X for me, I'll give you Y." It's not really donations or paying for work when the developer never asks for either. Donations would also mean the person is doing specifically what they want to do, and is just asking for money to make it happen. What you are doing here is going "Chilly, I want you to stop what you are doing and port these bad Jaguar games to the 32X for me. And if you do it, I'll give you money."

sheath
04-04-2013, 11:00 AM
I've always considered bribing limited to trying to make somebody do something they ordinarily wouldn't do or shouldn't do. What Vector is doing is silly but it isn't illicit. Besides, I don't think Chilly is accepting. ;)

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 11:24 AM
I've always considered bribing limited to trying to make somebody do something they ordinarily wouldn't do or shouldn't do. What Vector is doing is silly but it isn't illicit. Besides, I don't think Chilly is accepting. ;)

Well its not bribing in the bad sense, it still comes off as a bit silly and somewhat rude if you ask me.

Vector2013
04-04-2013, 04:04 PM
Well its not bribing in the bad sense, it still comes off as a bit silly and somewhat rude if you ask me.

First of all, the way you explained it the entire economy is a bribe then. But it's a trade. They will do work, I will pay whoever does it. Second, I never asked Chilly to stop what he is doing to do this. Seriously where the hell do you guys come up with these incorrect assumptions all the time ? Third, how is it silly or rude ? How is it silly to be able to play Tempest2000 on the 32 x ? And what is it to you ? If you don't like the idea or don't want to play the games, then don't.

sheath
04-04-2013, 04:11 PM
First of all, the way you explained it the entire economy is a bribe then. But it's a trade. They will do work, I will pay whoever does it. Second, I never asked Chilly to stop what he is doing to do this. Seriously where the hell do you guys come up with these incorrect assumptions all the time ? Third, how is it silly or rude ? How is it silly to be able to play Tempest2000 on the 32 x ? And what is it to you ? If you don't like the idea or don't want to play the games, then don't.

It is ironic really, this same community has made it clear that they don't believe in any real standard but they argue all the time about the same. I will say it again, why bother arguing? I guess this could be an emotional outlet for some folks but man does that not ever work out well.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 04:18 PM
First of all, the way you explained it the entire economy is a bribe then. But it's a trade. They will do work, I will pay whoever does it. Second, I never asked Chilly to stop what he is doing to do this. Seriously where the hell do you guys come up with these incorrect assumptions all the time ? Third, how is it silly or rude ? How is it silly to be able to play Tempest2000 on the 32 x ? And what is it to you ? If you don't like the idea or don't want to play the games, then don't.

It's silly because you think throwing money at the issue will make the games materialize. If no homebrew developer wants to waste their time developing these games in their spare time, its not going to happen. Plain and simple. Trying to bribe them with money probably wont work and it also just makes the situation become messy. It's silly because it's almost childish in thought and execution. If you want those games ported so badly, learn how to program and do it yourself.

And the entire economy isn't a bribe either. It's not a donation because no developer is asking for donations to do it. It's not a job because there's no contract of employment. Loosely it could be a trade but there's not really a hard product to trade for it. You are trying to persuade someone to do something in return for a reward. That's the dictionary definition of a bribe.

Vector2013
04-04-2013, 04:31 PM
It's silly because you think throwing money at the issue will make the games materialize.

Funny, when I came here the community said if more people raised money for incentive to get people to do stuff, maybe more stuff will happen. But then when I save up $400 for WHOEVER and WHENEVER they are ready, and explain it, that's silly. Okay.


If no homebrew developer wants to waste their time developing these games in their spare time, its not going to happen. Plain and simple.

Plain in simple he typed a list and seemed somewhat interested in it then and just said he enjoyed such stuff. Finally a source code for games which could be made and put on 32 x, it's not just me interested in this. Read the posts in thread. Instead of fantasy "can this be ported" even when no source code is available, now we got source codes and can do it and people liked the idea of those Jag games on 32 x. I'll let Chilly talk, does he think I said "drop everything you are doing and just you do this with no help", or if I was being rude or if this is silly.


Trying to bribe them with money probably wont work and it also just makes the situation become messy. It's silly because it's almost childish in thought and execution.

If you say so.


If you want those games ported so badly, learn how to program and do it yourself.

Okay instead of buying pants, I'll sew my own. Instead of buying an xbox, I'll build my own. And so on.


And the entire economy isn't a bribe either. It's not a donation because no developer is asking for donations to do it. It's not a job because there's no contract of employment. Loosely it could be a trade but there's not really a hard product to trade for it. You are trying to persuade someone to do something in return for a reward. That's the dictionary definition of a bribe.

I'm just going by what you typed, "If you do X for me, I'll give you Y." "If you do X for me (make a product), I'll give you Y (a paycheck)." It's a trade.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 04:46 PM
Funny, when I came here the community said if more people raised money for incentive to get people to do stuff, maybe more stuff will happen. But then when I save up $400 for WHOEVER and WHENEVER they are ready, and explain it, that's silly. Okay.

Where was this said?



Plain in simple he typed a list and seemed somewhat interested in it then and just said he enjoyed such stuff.

Because you asked what Source Code he had, not because he said "I'll port these if someone pays me."



If you say so.

What happens if said developer goes "Oh hey, stuff came up at work, I'll have to put this on hold for a year" ? Will said investors be ok or will they go "Wait we are paying you to do this, no breaks!"? When money gets involved like that things can go sour fast.




Okay instead of buying pants, I'll sew my own. Instead of buying an xbox, I'll build my own. And so on.

Buying products is a different thing all together. You're not trying to persuade Microsoft to give you an Xbox when you buy one. Microsoft is already offering that product to you at that price. You are trying to persuade someone to do something you could do yourself if you'd apply yourself.



I'm just going by what you typed, "If you do X for me, I'll give you Y." "If you do X for me (make a product), I'll give you Y (a paycheck)." It's a trade.

Only stupid people think in absolutes. Context makes a huge difference you know. The key thing here is you are trying to persuade someone to do something by offering a reward. That's a bribe.


EDIT:



Finally a source code for games which could be made and put on 32 x, it's not just me interested in this. Read the posts in thread. Instead of fantasy "can this be ported" even when no source code is available, now we got source codes and can do it and people liked the idea of those Jag games on 32 x.

This I don't have a problem with. The issue started when you decided to raise money and throw it at homebrew people to do things for you.

Vector2013
04-04-2013, 05:16 PM
Where was this said?

It was discussed in a 32 x thread. Not sure which one, but I also discussed it in pms.


Because you asked what Source Code he had, not because he said "I'll port these if someone pays me."

Because people were asking for 32 x games, and he said he had source codes. I then asked which ones. After he typed them or I told people about the list, they seemed interested.



What happens if said developer goes "Oh hey, stuff came up at work, I'll have to put this on hold for a year" ? Will said investors be ok or will they go "Wait we are paying you to do this, no breaks!"? When money gets involved like that things can go sour fast.

Assumption. I'm not going to do that, in fact I made it clear. Whenever. Did anyone even offer the thought of appreciation by saying to him, hey I think it's cool you made Wolf 32 x I'd like to donate to you for doing it ? He never asked, but when I mentioned it he never said no. I'm sure he appreciated the just thought though. If he allows it, I'd like to donate to him for it. About the pot raised for these, whoever does it (because as you can read some of the community seemed excited about it) I think that is a good compensation for THEIR TIME and WORK. But if they don't want it, okay. I brought it up because people said "it's going to take money to motivate them" then I asked $100 then they said more.


Buying products is a different thing all together. You're not trying to persuade Microsoft to give you an Xbox when you buy one. Microsoft is already offering that product to you at that price. You are trying to persuade someone to do something you could do yourself if you'd apply yourself.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone. Me and others asked him about it before any mention of money. Then "offer him more than this or that" was commented.


Only stupid people think in absolutes.

Save your insults.


Context makes a huge difference you know.

Don't give me that context shit. Context becomes an excuse at times. I went by what you typed. Like the "saturn needs a mod chip to play back up cds" thing you brought up once. I'm going by what you typed.


The key thing here is you are trying to persuade someone to do something by offering a reward. That's a bribe.

So kickstarter is a bribe too. Okay. I'm raising a pot, so the people doing this for us, their time, their work etc is compensated.

People can do it for free if they want. I'll let them speak for themselves. I just brought up, I appreciate what they did and if they do this it's appreciated, and offered the thought of money. Instead of asking for games with no source codes to be magically ported and offer nothing. In Peirs Solar thread, did you ever say "if you guys an rpg for md, learn to code it yourself !". No I bet you didn't.


This I don't have a problem with.

Okay.


The issue started when you decided to raise money and throw it at homebrew people to do things for you.

For ME ? I'm doing this for me AND everyone who commented and was excited. But tell you what, fuck it then. If it's such an issue for you, then guess what fuck the idea of porting those Jag games to 32 x and fuck my offer. Does that make you happy now ?

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 05:47 PM
Kickstarter can be a bribe depending on what the kickstarter is. But in most cases it isn't a bribe, because its asking for donations. There's no intent to persuade people to do something for said money. You don't seem to get the difference between a bribe and paying for services. The key thing here is you are trying to persuade someone with money. That's a bribe. Kickstarters are going "We want to do this, but we need money to make it a possibility." You are instead going "I want you to do this, how much money is it going to take to make you do this?" See the difference?

You were the only one significantly excited about this idea and you were the only one mentioning money for it. I'm not saying screw the idea, I'm saying leave the money out of it unless it's actually necessary.

It also seems you took a sarcastic money comment literally. The comment was most likely one that gets mentioned in other sites and threads about people begging for homebrew ports. That comment is one that hits on the fact that these people have real life jobs and responsibilies and homebrew is something they do in their limited free time. If you want them to to put more time into doing homebrew, you need give them money to make up for the job they would need to quit to have more time to work on things. Since this is unrealistic and silly, it's usually said as sarcastic remark.

And the Saturn does need a mod chip to play back ups. Sure there's the swap trick but it that's more for a temporary one time thing. If you intend to play backups on a regular basis, get a mod chip.

Vector2013
04-04-2013, 06:33 PM
1. Sorry to ruin this thread. Me making threads or posts attracts trolls too (because somehow I care about posts and threads amount?). However sorry to derail this guys thread, I should have made new one even though it's 32 x game talk.

2. Sorry to be silly by asking 32 x fans if they want to play more games on it.

3. Sorry to be rude to Chilly.

4. Sorry for "bribing".

5. Sorry, I'm going to go around and erase my posts about mentioning money so things don't get painted wrong way.

6. I was wrong on everything. Absolutely. I don't get anything. Absolutely.

What would you call person A saying "I really want that Retro Mag, I'm willing to pay somebody $5 for upload" and that gives person B the incentive to do it, and they take money ? A bribe ? Or trade/service ? A bribe is like I PM you Trek and say I'll pay you $5 to stop replying to me or paying a cop $20 to not fine me $200. This is more a trade or service like kickstarter. But it don't matter. I'm wrong.

Chilly Willy
04-04-2013, 06:45 PM
It's not a problem - you're just a little ethusiastic. :D

I never ask for money up front on homebrew because I'm never sure when it'll get done. It's something I do in my spare time when I feel like it.

I do think if you did a kickstarter campaign, you're committing yourself legally. If I felt highly enough about a game idea and had something early put together, I might consider using kickstarter, but I've nothing in that state right now.

I'm always happy to help another dev with coding issues. I've helped on quite a few things besides posting all my demos and examples and tools.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 06:54 PM
Yeah, I don't have an issue with you being enthusiastic about getting more games ported to the 32X either. I just think diving right into offering money was a step over the line. Leave money out of it until it's actually needed.



2. Sorry to be silly by asking 32 x fans if they want to play more games on it.


This was never the issue, the issue was you offering money to persuade people to port the games you wanted ported.



What would you call person A saying "I really want that Retro Mag, I'm willing to pay somebody $5 for upload" and that gives person B the incentive to do it, and they take money ? A bribe ? Or trade/service ?

It's a bribe because the intent is to persuade. It's the same kind of bribe as a parent going "If you play in little league I'll take you to Chuckie Cheeses". End of the day, it's still a bribe. It would be a trade for a service if person B said "I have this magazine, I'll scan and upload it for $5" and person A said "Ok, here's $5."



A bribe is like I PM you Trek and say I'll pay you $5 to stop replying to me or paying a cop $20 to not fine me $200. This is more a trade or service like kickstarter. But it don't matter. I'm wrong.

Yes, that's a bribe too. This isn't a trade or a service because the person you are offering the money too isn't publicly advertising that they are offering said item or service for trade. This isn't a kickstarter either because the person doing the project isn't asking for money to begin with. A bribe doesn't have to result in breaking the law, having someone look the other way, or having someone not do what they are supposed to do for it to be a bribe. All a bribe requires is one party persuading another party to do an activity they want them to do in exchange for a reward.

You were trying to persuade homebrew programmers to port specific games you wanted to the 32X in exchange for money. That's still a bribe. Yes you're not asking them to do something immoral, but the act is still that of bribery.

Vector2013
04-04-2013, 07:05 PM
"If you want them to to put more time into doing homebrew, you need give them money to make up for the job they would need to quit to have more time to work on things. Since this is unrealistic and silly, it's usually said as sarcastic remark."

That was what I did, I was serious on giving it to them.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 07:08 PM
"If you want them to to put more time into doing homebrew, you need give them money to make up for the job they would need to quit to have more time to work on things. Since this is unrealistic and silly, it's usually said as sarcastic remark."

That was what I did, I was serious on giving it to them.

I bolded the important part for you. $400 would not have made up for Chilly taking time out of his real life job to port Checkered Flag. Hence why the idea was silly.

Vector2013
04-04-2013, 07:09 PM
You didn't need to bold it, I can read. I responded by saying I was serious. How do you know it's not worth it for Chilly ? It wasn't just for ME, I was doing it for community. It wasn't just ME interested. It wasn't (just) CF, in fact first game being discussed was Tempest2000 for various reasons. But never mind.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 07:13 PM
It wasn't just for ME, I was doing it for community. It wasn't just ME interested.

Just because you are saying it was for the community doesn't mean it wasn't a bribe.

This is the post where it came off as a bribe:

Chilly I saved up $500 to port Checkered Flag and Tempest2000 and some other codes you have on cd-r if you are interested. How much do you want, or anyone else interested in adding to my $500 pot ? I think the community will love to play those Jag ports on 32 x when you get time to do it. Shame, no Fight for Life code huh ?

The bolded part is where it comes off as a fully fledged bribe. You are essentially saying "how much money is it going to take to get you to port this game?"

sheath
04-04-2013, 08:16 PM
Trekkies, please don't make Vector your next "project" to troll. Let's get this thread back on topic. What would it take to get an adaptation of Quake running on the 32X as is? With more than enough Cartridge ROM, could it be done at least as well as other console ports?

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 08:31 PM
Trekkies, please don't make Vector your next "project" to troll. Let's get this thread back on topic. What would it take to get an adaptation of Quake running on the 32X as is? With more than enough Cartridge ROM, could it be done at least as well as other console ports?

I don't make projects to troll. And I'm not trolling him either. I'm just pointing out that I think it was a bit silly to try and bribe people to do ports.

sheath
04-04-2013, 08:35 PM
I don't make projects to troll. And I'm not trolling him either. I'm just pointing out that I think it was a bit silly to try and bribe people to do ports.

Nah, you are trolling him. There is no point to it either.

madmax2069
04-04-2013, 08:45 PM
I don't make projects to troll. And I'm not trolling him either. I'm just pointing out that I think it was a bit silly to try and bribe people to do ports.

Actually you was coming off a Tad bit more rude then what his harmless begging was, and you did it in a trolling manner. Bribe or not there is no harm in asking about what he was asking about, its not like he was trying to bribe him to kill someone.

It could have been ignored and overlooked. Now stop please you are dragging this further off topic.

Now back on topic, when I see this topic it constantly makes me think of that yeti 3d port for 32x, even fully optimized (which would be a a lot of work in itself) it might not run all that smooth, but playable.

sheath
04-04-2013, 08:49 PM
From what Chilly said about the Yeti 3D port, I think a reasonable speed, possibly lower geometry, version of Quake with that engine was definitely possible. Something in the 15-20FPS range seems reasonable to me.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-04-2013, 09:57 PM
Nah, you are trolling him. There is no point to it either.

If you think that is trolling, then you haven't ever seen true trolling.

Black_Tiger
04-04-2013, 10:52 PM
I'm not going to read through this thread again to see if I already commented, but I think that animated sprites would look better than polygonal models in a 32X port, separate from the difference in performance. I think that in order to be more effective than sprites, polygonal models require an overall minimum performance which the 32X isn't going hit anyway. I'm not suggesting that Quake shouldn't be attempted, but I'd love to see and play it on 32X as smooth as possible using sprites.

Chilly Willy
04-05-2013, 12:33 AM
I'm not going to read through this thread again to see if I already commented, but I think that animated sprites would look better than polygonal models in a 32X port, separate from the difference in performance. I think that in order to be more effective than sprites, polygonal models require an overall minimum performance which the 32X isn't going hit anyway. I'm not suggesting that Quake shouldn't be attempted, but I'd love to see and play it on 32X as smooth as possible using sprites.

True, sprites would be quicker. Quake doesn't put too many bad guys on the screen at once because at the time 3D enemies were a lot more work to render than sprites. So instead of dozens of bad guys like Doom, you dropped to two or three or four. I do think that a properly optimized assembly poly renderer should be able to hit 10 to 15 FPS depending on the complexity of the scene, which would be fine for Quake. I'm not as familiar with the Quake engine as the Doom engine... I should probably check out one of those sites where some guy dissects the engine. At the moment I just point out that QuakeDS for the NDS runs on 4MB of ram. That's probably about the best port of Quake to a lesser console that I'm familiar with.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-05-2013, 01:01 AM
It sounds like Quake DS would be perfect for the Saturn with the 4MB RAM cart. I wonder what kind of Frame Rate you could get with that.

sheath
04-05-2013, 09:26 AM
I've always thought that Saturn Quake was using pre-rendered Sprites as well, the animation for turning and whatnot is pretty choppy, way choppier than the game itself.

kool kitty89
04-05-2013, 07:10 PM
I've always thought that Saturn Quake was using pre-rendered Sprites as well, the animation for turning and whatnot is pretty choppy, way choppier than the game itself.
The PC game is like that too. Enemies and other animated 3D models are animated at 15 FPS. The models use 3D animation rather than realtime model manipulation . . . that simplified some things and optimizes textures better (no oddly stretched/warped textures on models -and issues like arms/legs/etc clipping through eachother), but also takes up a lot of space if you want smooth animation.
I think Quake 2 does this too, but just with a lot more animation "frames". A lot of old 3D games do it that way, with solid 3D models and animation (different model for each "frame") rather than a model made up of components with mobile joints.


Edit: Checking again in some Saturn gameplay videos, the enemies and objects definitely seem to be animated like the PC game is.

Vector2013
04-06-2013, 09:08 PM
it still comes off as a bit silly and somewhat rude if you ask me.

Who asked you ?


Just because you are saying it was for the community doesn't mean it wasn't a bribe.

My point was it isn't just about me, me, me as you typed. Others were interested. But pretend only I was interested in those threads again or ignore the "avp 32x yeah + rep" comments in this thread.


You are trying to persuade someone to do something you could do yourself if you'd apply yourself.

How without the source codes? Explain that to me, as you keep saying I should do it myself. I'll buy the source codes cd-r (instead of it collecting dust), and put a team together to create the ports. Or is that a bribe ? Did you go in Peir Solar thread then or Project Y thread now and tell everyone to learn to code and program rpg or beats em ups themselves instead of just buying their game or donate to their cause yet ? Keep on talking about fantasy ports like this one though instead of source codes that are there and 32x versions that could be made. What game have you applied yourself to port or create btw ?


If you want them to to put more time into doing homebrew, you need give them money to make up for the job they would need to quit to have more time to work on things. Since this is unrealistic and silly, it's usually said as sarcastic remark.

But if I ask them how much they want for that service because I'm not a mind reader, it'll become a bribe according to your logic.

"How much do you want"


is where it comes off as a fully fledged bribe. You are essentially saying "how much money is it going to take to get you to port this game?"

I need to know how much they want for their service, so a question is required. Now I'm asking just to buy the source code cd-r and I will pay others to do it.


The issue started when you decided to raise money and throw it at homebrew people to do things for you.

What is it any business of yours ? I was offering the money, it isn't your money.


All a bribe requires is one party (company) persuading another party (employees) to do an activity they want them to do (make product) in exchange for a reward (paycheck).

Okay.

All I would like is to buy the cd-r of the source codes. I do not need to persuade nobody, I have people interested in porting the games and I will pay them for that service.


And the Saturn does need a mod chip to play back ups.

WRONG.


Sure there's the swap trick but it that's more for a temporary one time thing. If you intend to play backups on a regular basis, get a mod chip.

No it isn't, I do the swap trick every day. No problems.

sheath
04-06-2013, 09:16 PM
The PC game is like that too. Enemies and other animated 3D models are animated at 15 FPS. The models use 3D animation rather than realtime model manipulation . . . that simplified some things and optimizes textures better (no oddly stretched/warped textures on models -and issues like arms/legs/etc clipping through eachother), but also takes up a lot of space if you want smooth animation.
I think Quake 2 does this too, but just with a lot more animation "frames". A lot of old 3D games do it that way, with solid 3D models and animation (different model for each "frame") rather than a model made up of components with mobile joints.

Edit: Checking again in some Saturn gameplay videos, the enemies and objects definitely seem to be animated like the PC game is.

I wish when you said stuff like this you could point me to a source. I thought it might be sprite based on the Saturn because of how the animations were handled and because of the Slave Driver engine, but I have always been told it is some sort of 3D thing. I have only noticed 3D animations this bad in Namco's fighters and Speed Devils on Dreamcast that obviously were not 2D animations simulating 3D.

Black_Tiger
04-06-2013, 09:54 PM
I wish when you said stuff like this you could point me to a source. I thought it might be sprite based on the Saturn because of how the animations were handled and because of the Slave Driver engine, but I have always been told it is some sort of 3D thing. I have only noticed 3D animations this bad in Namco's fighters and Speed Devils on Dreamcast that obviously were not 2D animations simulating 3D.

Just read some of the many Lobotomy interviews, in particular, from the UK Sega Saturn magazine. They gave more or less monthly interviews to them for a while. The reworked the engine to support the 3D character and item models. You can also read how they explain in detail how capable the Saturn is at 3D graphics and misc effects and how those who have a tough time are just poor programmers.

It's also because of the limited frames of animated for enemies in the PC version of Quake, that I think that sprites would lose all the less while increasing the overall performance in a 32X version. A separate fully 3D demo would be neat, but what little 3D objects would add over sprites isn't worth the hit to performance.

Vector2013
04-06-2013, 09:55 PM
Is the a source code to do it ? Or is this more 32x thread fantasy ?

kool kitty89
04-07-2013, 04:21 AM
I wish when you said stuff like this you could point me to a source. I thought it might be sprite based on the Saturn because of how the animations were handled and because of the Slave Driver engine, but I have always been told it is some sort of 3D thing. I have only noticed 3D animations this bad in Namco's fighters and Speed Devils on Dreamcast that obviously were not 2D animations simulating 3D.
Chilly Willy (and maybe some others) explained the oddly choppy enemy animations in DOS quake a while back (probably more than once). That's where I first learned the details on the issue.

That's not the only game to do 3D animation that way either. (for that matter, Star Fox does it too -hence the choppy robot animations . . . just less noticeable due to the low render framerate in general -on the Nintendoage thread, there's actually mention of an OpenGL version of of Star Fox that's being worked on that intends to use interpolated animations for smooth articulation of all those models)

I'm almost positive that Quake 2 does animations that way too, but just at a higher framerate. (still a bit odd looking, and more noticeable at particularly high framerates on modern PCs) The choppy DOS animations don't look that off if you were running it below 15 FPS. ;)

Black_Tiger
04-07-2013, 11:20 AM
Lots of 3D games during the 32-bit generation used hand animated frames of animation. It always stood out to me, especially in games that otherwise used full framerate animation.

Chilly Willy
04-07-2013, 03:44 PM
Quake uses 3D models, not sprites. Each incarnation of Quake raised the number of frames of animation for the models, as well as the number of polys for the models.

Using sprites probably would have been faster on systems of the time, but then you run into an interesting problem... 3D. These games let you look up and down - now imagine that level where you look down the spiral staircase to the bad guy at the bottom... the one where you drop the block at the top onto him. If you used sprites, you would need sprites that not only covered rotation, but elevation - you need sprites for looking down at the object as well as up at the object. Doom avoided that by not allowing you to look up or down. So your sprites use even more space, meaning more ram required, or fewer objects. In the case of a 32X game, it would mean a bigger rom.

sheath
04-07-2013, 03:53 PM
So, the way I was thinking of Quake's characters as sprites is wrong. I knew they could be viewed from too many angles for it to be a simple "bitmap" as some magazines called it. It is obvious when an object is totally 2D when it rotates with the camera always in the same aspect, so up and down camera movement would also expose that. Thanks for that point Chilly.

Am I correct in viewing this particular style of 3D animation as a bastard step child of 2D objects in "3D" games? It seems like you could do the same effect with a flat tile of any size that animates and distorts according to the camera.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-07-2013, 04:24 PM
My point was it isn't just about me, me, me as you typed. Others were interested. But pretend only I was interested in those threads again or ignore the "avp 32x yeah + rep" comments in this thread.

You were the only one showing true excitement if you ask me. And it really doesn't matter if others were excited, you were the only one trying to persuade with money.



How without the source codes? Explain that to me, as you keep saying I should do it myself. I'll buy the source codes cd-r (instead of it collecting dust), and put a team together to create the ports. Or is that a bribe ? Did you go in Peir Solar thread then or Project Y thread now and tell everyone to learn to code and program rpg or beats em ups themselves instead of just buying their game or donate to their cause yet ? Keep on talking about fantasy ports like this one though instead of source codes that are there and 32x versions that could be made. What game have you applied yourself to port or create btw ?

Ask Chilly if he'll let others have access to the source code. Pier Solar and Project Y are different things. They are actual products or preorders for products. That's not a bribe, that's paying for a product that's already being offered for a price.




But if I ask them how much they want for that service because I'm not a mind reader, it'll become a bribe according to your logic.

"How much do you want"


Because it is bribing. You need to read the sentence that comes after the part you bolded to understand why. It's a sarcastic idea because no one can make up for Chilly's real job with money to do homebrew for a living instead. It's unrealistic. $400 wont make up for it. The fact you think you can do that is why it's silly. And the fact you keep brining it up and throwing it in his and other developers faces is why it's coming off as bribery.

I'm not saying you can't be excited or ask if people are interested in porting games. But leave money out of it unless it's required or asked of you.



I need to know how much they want for their service, so a question is required. Now I'm asking just to buy the source code cd-r and I will pay others to do it.

They're not offering it as a service though. They are doing it for fun because they enjoy it in their spare time.



What is it any business of yours ? I was offering the money, it isn't your money.

It's not my business, I just stated my opinion on how I saw it.




Okay.

All I would like is to buy the cd-r of the source codes. I do not need to persuade nobody, I have people interested in porting the games and I will pay them for that service.

Companies and employees are different. They signed a contract of employement. Are you a company and is Chilly or other homebrew developers your employees? No.




WRONG.

If you don't want to eventually break your Saturn then yes.




No it isn't, I do the swap trick every day. No problems.

It is damaging. I don't care how often you do it or how lucky you are. Because that's all it is. You are lucky. There are reports of people breaking their Saturn's doing the swap trick because it isn't a long term solution. It's guesswork, no matter how good you are. And guess work will always open the door for mistakes.

Now, I'm doing debating this crap with you. If you still don't understand, then PM me.


Is the a source code to do it ? Or is this more 32x thread fantasy ?

Yes, Quake's source code was released years ago.

Chilly Willy
04-07-2013, 06:09 PM
I bought the "Jaguar Source Code Collection" disc from the Jaguar Sector Store after someone posted about it in a Jaguar thread here. It's hardly a one-of-a-kind item. There's even a review of it on YouTube.

Vector2013
04-07-2013, 09:11 PM
I bought the "Jaguar Source Code Collection" disc from the Jaguar Sector Store after someone posted about it in a Jaguar thread here. It's hardly a one-of-a-kind item. There's even a review of it on YouTube.

Fair enough TrekkiesUnite118.

Yes me and Chilly have been messaging each other.

Cool about Quake code. Who will attempt a port ? I'm wondering if just us or 1 or 2 forums even know about it. IMO, the more who know the more interest it might kick up.

Chilly Willy
04-08-2013, 12:54 AM
Cool about Quake code. Who will attempt a port ? I'm wondering if just us or 1 or 2 forums even know about it. IMO, the more who know the more interest it might kick up.

Plenty of folks know about it, but there's not too much that anyone can do without a ram cart. That's one of the things I'll be working on once there is a ram cart for the CD32X.

Vector2013
04-08-2013, 01:03 AM
Who will create a 32xcd Ram cart, Krikzz ?

madmax2069
04-08-2013, 03:45 AM
Plenty of folks know about it, but there's not too much that anyone can do without a ram cart. That's one of the things I'll be working on once there is a ram cart for the CD32X.

Couldn't the Mega everdrive be used as a ram cart? Unless it can't be used for a Rom and Ram cart at the same time.

Chilly Willy
04-08-2013, 01:14 PM
Couldn't the Mega everdrive be used as a ram cart? Unless it can't be used for a Rom and Ram cart at the same time.

It can be used as a ram cart, but only for the MD, not the 32X. KRIKzz made a special mode for 32X games where the timing is changed for the 32X as his normal timing didn't work reliably for 32X accesses. So you're either in 32X mode, where you are simulating a 32X rom, or you're not, where you can use the ram for other things. It's too expensive to use as a ram cart, anyway. We need something that is JUST a ram cart that's cheap enough for folks to buy to run homebrew... something like the ARP for the Saturn - it's like $20 for 4MB of ram and some save memory. That was one thing I looked into - an adapter to allow using the ARP on the MD, but there's no source I can find for Saturn cart connectors.

kool kitty89
04-08-2013, 10:33 PM
Am I correct in viewing this particular style of 3D animation as a bastard step child of 2D objects in "3D" games? It seems like you could do the same effect with a flat tile of any size that animates and distorts according to the camera.
No, it's just choppy 3D animation. That style of animation continued to be used (continues to be used, even) in some cases, while articulated models are used in others . . . or a combination (probably the most common). It's just gotten much higher quality and much smoother (more memory for more animation poses -again, each animation "frame" is basically an entirely new model, or a new portion of a model).
The 2D counterpart to that would be comparing animated sprites (or BG layers, blitter objects, etc) to non-animated ones. (each animation frame is a new sprite "model" so to speak ;))

Imagine if the objects had no animation at all, and just rotated/slid around. They'd still be full 3D models rendered in 3D space . . . and that exactly what a number of games do too. (especially simulator style games with vehicles with no articulation or animation -especially flight/space sims and many polygonal railshooters and such focusing on similar objects)
And the items/powerups in Quake are just that . . . which is also why they don't seem choppy. ;) (particularly the armor or weapon packs floating and smoothly rotating with no choppy animation to confuse things -they're static models)

I'm not 100% sure on making generalizations here, but I think Alone in the Dark, Resident Evil, and Tomb Raider all included player/enemy models that used articulation in models rather than animation (or both).

I think The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard opted for primarly using animation, and at a fairly low framerate too (more like Quake), since it seems noticeably choppy and a stark contrast with the game rendering speed. (without performance bottlenecks capping rendering speed too)
--Actually, that game's got some other weird things going on too, there's the odd sound quality issues I touched on in another thread, and there's also the use of flat shading for lighting in the software renderer, which looks particularly bad with the lighting they used (relatively complex lighting making relatively complex models have odd mixes of light and dark polygons), and it's a 1998 game whereas even most 1995/96 PC software renderers were doing smooth lighting gradients of some sort (and many did that earlier -including Doom, aside form the 32x version's per-sector lighting) . . . being a DOS game core in a 1998 release was also odd. (in spite of requiring win9x for installation -uses 9x install shield program, but is a DOS game natively) Just another reason to have a DOS machine with a DOS-compatible 3DFX card, I guess. ;)

Black_Tiger
04-08-2013, 11:25 PM
The best way to describe is that it is stop motion animation.

madmax2069
04-08-2013, 11:27 PM
It can be used as a ram cart, but only for the MD, not the 32X. KRIKzz made a special mode for 32X games where the timing is changed for the 32X as his normal timing didn't work reliably for 32X accesses. So you're either in 32X mode, where you are simulating a 32X rom, or you're not, where you can use the ram for other things. It's too expensive to use as a ram cart, anyway. We need something that is JUST a ram cart that's cheap enough for folks to buy to run homebrew... something like the ARP for the Saturn - it's like $20 for 4MB of ram and some save memory. That was one thing I looked into - an adapter to allow using the ARP on the MD, but there's no source I can find for Saturn cart connectors.

Yes the Mega everdrive is expensive. Could the timing be tweaked (in a future update) to work correctly with the 32x, or is it a limitation with the Mega everdrive, or the software that the Mega everdrive runs.

I do own a Mega everdrive (took a little bit of saving).

Chilly Willy
04-09-2013, 12:41 AM
Yes the Mega everdrive is expensive. Could the timing be tweaked (in a future update) to work correctly with the 32x, or is it a limitation with the Mega everdrive, or the software that the Mega everdrive runs.

I do own a Mega everdrive (took a little bit of saving).

It could be corrected with a firmware update, but I imagine KRIKzz has more important things to do than try to make a ram cart mode for the 32X.

Vector2013
04-09-2013, 01:27 AM
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?1475-Megacart-the-ultimate-utility-cart-for-your-segacd-megacd&p=569148#post569148

Chilly Willy
04-09-2013, 02:19 PM
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?1475-Megacart-the-ultimate-utility-cart-for-your-segacd-megacd&p=569148#post569148

You'll need to do more than post a link... no idea what you're trying to ask beyond the crazy idea of whether the MegaCart could be used as a ram cart... which is silly as it's a flash cart.

Vector2013
04-09-2013, 08:23 PM
You'll need to do more than post a link... no idea what you're trying to ask beyond the crazy idea of whether the MegaCart could be used as a ram cart... which is silly as it's a flash cart.

So is the Everdrive but your talking about updates to use it as a Ram cart. So my question would be, nobody made a updated Ram cart ? If anybody could, it's Krill but a EverDrive update would be way easier yes ?

topshelfgamer
04-11-2013, 06:29 AM
*gives up after two full pages of arguments*

Umm.. i'm aware i'm sort of new here (in terms of post count) but... do people always argue THIS MUCH or are the threads i've seen so far more the exception? /o_o\

Some things i'm trying to understand coming in a little late... I didn't read all pages of all posts because I keep seeing so much arguing going on it's hard to find on topic so i'm sorry if I missed the two or three posts talking about the... topic.0
- Is there a reason the 32x is the target instead of say, the Saturn? I'm guessing because the 68000 cpu can run code without much difficulty, but I was curious whether other 68000 systems could potentially run some of the code... I guess I just find the idea fascinating that the atari jaguar stuff could run on other stuff at all but i'd almost wonder whether the beefier Saturn cpu's might even emulate such a 16bit cpu. The 32bit in the sony playstation emulates the SNES final fantasy games afterall, so....
- Is the low RAM really so much of a handicap vs loading off ROM? Unless the goal was to run off sega CD/32x or something I was assuming most assets would execute and read direct off the cartridge anyways not really requiring RAM. Even so, the Sega CD plus 32x has more like 1meg total RAM (unless I misread 512k sega cd, 256k 'shared' sega cd/megadrive, another 256k in the 32x if all can be accessed vs the 2meg total on the jaguar) which might be better than trying to have a 32x only flash cart runnable program.
- Even if RAM is the biggest bottleneck, if someone wanted to stick out repro cartridges, putting extra RAM on the cartridge itself shouldn't be beyond discussion. Afterall Virtua Racing on the Genesis added the SVP chip, Star Fox added the SuperFX, games have battery backup ram, hell ram chips were added for Tunnel Runner on the atari 2600, so what if a slight bit of extra hardware is needed to give it a boost? It wouldn't run off a flash cart as it is, at least current ones, but maybe future ones would support an extra RAM bank if needed. But maybe on some kind of a standard so it could be used by other games outside of just jag ports maybe to be interesting. (like atari st/amiga ports in the future :)

KitsuneNight
04-11-2013, 07:02 AM
*gives up after two full pages of arguments*

Umm.. i'm aware i'm sort of new here (in terms of post count) but... do people always argue THIS MUCH or are the threads i've seen so far more the exception? /o_o\

from what i have seen so far ( and i have read a lot of threads before signing up )
this is the norm
welcome to any forum ever eh ? ;)

Black_Tiger
04-11-2013, 07:54 AM
*gives up after two full pages of arguments*

Umm.. i'm aware i'm sort of new here (in terms of post count) but... do people always argue THIS MUCH or are the threads i've seen so far more the exception? /o_o\

Some things i'm trying to understand coming in a little late... I didn't read all pages of all posts because I keep seeing so much arguing going on it's hard to find on topic so i'm sorry if I missed the two or three posts talking about the... topic.0
- Is there a reason the 32x is the target instead of say, the Saturn? I'm guessing because the 68000 cpu can run code without much difficulty, but I was curious whether other 68000 systems could potentially run some of the code... I guess I just find the idea fascinating that the atari jaguar stuff could run on other stuff at all but i'd almost wonder whether the beefier Saturn cpu's might even emulate such a 16bit cpu. The 32bit in the sony playstation emulates the SNES final fantasy games afterall, so....


Some people are 32X fans and would like to see more done for it.

Drakon
04-11-2013, 08:06 AM
from what i have seen so far ( and i have read a lot of threads before signing up )
this is the norm
welcome to any forum ever eh ? ;)

Methinks this's his / her first 15 posts on any forum. Honestly I've seen much worse. There's plenty of forums that will ban you just for having an opinion no matter how mannerly you are.


Some people are 32X fans and would like to see more done for it.

Then they should learn how to program for the 32x themselves instead of pestering other people to do this stuff for free.


It could be corrected with a firmware update, but I imagine KRIKzz has more important things to do than try to make a ram cart mode for the 32X.

Exactly. If you want something like this so badly, build one yourself.


Yes the Mega everdrive is expensive. Could the timing be tweaked (in a future update) to work correctly with the 32x, or is it a limitation with the Mega everdrive, or the software that the Mega everdrive runs.

I do own a Mega everdrive (took a little bit of saving).

The mega everdrive is not expensive by a long shot. Considering how much money you save in collecting actual carts you should really think before you post. Until you take the time to build and develop something like the mega everdrive yourself and see just how much work goes into development you really shouldn't act like you know what a fair price is.

Vector2013
04-11-2013, 08:59 AM
Then they should learn how to program for the 32x themselves instead of pestering other people to do this stuff for free.





I told you already, but let me repeat it, I am trying to figure it out as we speak. Okay you made Sonic hacks, we get it. Porting the Jag games to 32 X isn't "as easy" as doing a Sonic Hack, or many would do it like Sonic Hacks. Have you done anything for 32 X ? I asked him for free then got hell when I brought up money. Or should I be a noid and tell everyone who would like certain games ported (Quake) or anything for that matter to just shut up and do it themselves multiple times ? In that case, I have a lot of typing to do on this forum.

Edit. Pestering huh ? Is that what Chilly said I was doing to him ? I just figured I'd ask him since he is the only person I know to do anything posthumous for the 32 X. But I will do my best not to ask certain things on this forum anymore, because people will just complain or turn something innocent into something negative. Or you are a pest if you ask 2 times if he would be interested to do it on his time, or you are being a briber once I offered to pay him even though you'll get accused of only asking him for free still somehow, or you should build your own RAM cart or just do everything yourself here.

"Then they should learn how to program for the 32x themselves instead of pestering other people to do this stuff for free.
Exactly. If you want something like this so badly, build one yourself.
Until you take the time to build and develop something like the mega everdrive yourself and see just how much work goes into development you really shouldn't act like you know"

So guys, if you want Quake on 32 X, "do it yourself".

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 10:19 AM
I told you already, but let me repeat it, I am trying to figure it out as we speak. Okay you made Sonic hacks, we get it. Porting the Jag games to 32 X isn't "as easy" as doing a Sonic Hack, or many would do it like Sonic Hacks. Have you done anything for 32 X ? I asked him for free then got hell when I brought up money. Or should I be a noid and tell everyone who would like certain games ported (Quake) or anything for that matter to just shut up and do it themselves multiple times ? In that case, I have a lot of typing to do on this forum.

Edit. Pestering huh ? Is that what Chilly said I was doing to him ? I just figured I'd ask him since he is the only person I know to do anything posthumous for the 32 X. But I will do my best not to ask certain things on this forum anymore, because people will just complain or turn something innocent into something negative. Or you are a pest if you ask 2 times if he would be interested to do it on his time, or you are being a briber once I offered to pay him even though you'll get accused of only asking him for free still somehow, or you should build your own RAM cart or just do everything yourself here.

"Then they should learn how to program for the 32x themselves instead of pestering other people to do this stuff for free.
Exactly. If you want something like this so badly, build one yourself.
Until you take the time to build and develop something like the mega everdrive yourself and see just how much work goes into development you really shouldn't act like you know"

So guys, if you want Quake on 32 X, "do it yourself".

When you brought up money it came off as bribing because you were pretty much ignoring the other things Chilly has on his to do list to do something for you (while yes the community would benefit from it, you are the one specifically doing the pestering).

You need to remember that Chilly has a lot of projects on his to do list. Jaguar ports are pretty much at the bottom of that list.

Just to reiterate this is what Chilly's list has been for a while from what he's stated (If I get any of this wrong Chilly feel free to correct me):

1) Finish Wolf3D for the 32X
2) Make a Wolf3D port for the CD32X or just the Sega CD (can't remember which)
3) Report DOOM to the 32X
4) Report DOOM to the Saturn
5) Possibly report Quake to the Saturn
6) 32X port of Quake (if a RAM cart materializes).

And in between those it's making demos to test ideas and research for those ports. As you can see Chilly has a lot on his homebrew dev plate. Not to mention his other obligations outside of homebrew dev (You know, that amazing game called Real Life).

So asking Chilly to do these ports is a bit much. He has a lot on his plate and he probably wont get to it for a very long time. And throwing money at him to do it comes off as bribery and insulting because you are trying to push your request infront of the other projects that others have been excited to see longer than you. If you want games ported so badly that you are willing to resort to bribery, learn how to program and start homebrew programming yourself. That's what I've started looking into in my spare time. I haven't put much together yet but I've been fiddling with things and learning. There's plenty of excellent guides here and on other forums to help you.

Drakon
04-11-2013, 11:03 AM
That's what I like to do. When I want something, I usually just do the research and make it myself. If I get stuck I'll ask around but I won't continue to ask over and over in the same place haha.

Vector2013
04-11-2013, 12:33 PM
you were pretty much ignoring the other things Chilly has on his to do list to do something for you

No I didn't. Read. I said (here we go again I'm repeating myself because people don't read properly and their assumptions outweigh fucking facts that can be read in the other thread) a few times, when your ready Chilly.

Asking a couple times = pestering ? Okay. Funny, he can speak for himself and he never said I was pestering him.

"
Drakon


That's what I like to do. When I want something, I usually just do the research and make it myself. If I get stuck I'll ask around but I won't continue to ask over and over in the same place haha.

"

Okay.


You need to remember that Chilly has a lot of projects on his to do list.

Seriously, can you read properly ?


Jaguar ports are pretty much at the bottom of that list.

I established that talking to him then.



Just to reiterate this is what Chilly's list has been for a while from what he's stated (If I get any of this wrong Chilly feel free to correct me):

1) Finish Wolf3D for the 32X
2) Make a Wolf3D port for the CD32X or just the Sega CD (can't remember which)
3) Report DOOM to the 32X
4) Report DOOM to the Saturn
5) Possibly report Quake to the Saturn
6) 32X port of Quake (if a RAM cart materializes).

Yeah he told me in PMs but thanks for retyping it.



And in between those it's making demos to test ideas and research for those ports. As you can see Chilly has a lot on his homebrew dev plate. Not to mention his other obligations outside of homebrew dev (You know, that amazing game called Real Life).


No shit. If you could read properly you would know I did know he had other things going on. Hence, whenever you get time money is there waiting.



So asking Chilly to do these ports is a bit much. He has a lot on his plate and he probably wont get to it for a very long time. And throwing money at him to do it comes off as bribery and insulting because you are trying to push your request infront of the other projects that others have been excited to see longer than you.


Okay.



If you want games ported so badly that you are willing to resort to bribery, learn how to program and start homebrew programming yourself.

I might as well stop typing and start quoting myself for now on.


That's what I've started looking into in my spare time. I haven't put much together yet but I've been fiddling with things and learning. There's plenty of excellent guides here and on other forums to help you.

As I said 3 times, I'm learning now.

Anyway, hope this Quake pans out.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 12:41 PM
No I didn't. Read. I said (here we go again I'm repeating myself because people don't read properly and their assumptions outweigh fucking facts that can be read in the other thread) a few times, when your ready Chilly.

Later on yes, but initially you didn't.

You seem really bitter over this. Get over it. It's not our fault you went around and raised money no one asked for, for a cause no one was willing to accept it for.

Vector2013
04-11-2013, 12:49 PM
Later on yes, but initially you didn't.

You seem really bitter over this. Get over it. It's not our fault you went around and raised money no one asked for, for a cause no one was willing to accept it for.

Are you fucking serious ? Who bitched about all this ? You. I'm over it. Talk about Quake again.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 01:09 PM
Are you fucking serious ? Who bitched about all this ? You. I'm over it. Talk about Quake again.

Then stop referring to it in snarky side remarks.

Vector2013
04-11-2013, 01:14 PM
I only responded to the snide remark made about me about it. (Read post 158 down. Read it.) That's where this all started again. You got the last word. I'd like to read Chilly or Kitty response to topshelf about 32 X or Quake.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 01:17 PM
I only responded to the snide remark made about me about it. (Read post 158 down. Read it.) That's where this all started again. You got the last word. I'd like to read Chilly or Kitty response to topshelf about 32 X or Quake.

I did read post 158. There was no need to fly off the handle like that. You are obviously still upset about that whole incident, otherwise you wouldn't have flown off the handle like that.

Vector2013
04-11-2013, 01:20 PM
Like I said you can have the last word, no matter how incorrect it is. I'd like to read Chilly or Kitty response to topshelf about 32 X or Quake then.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 01:28 PM
Like I said you can have the last word, no matter how incorrect it is. I'd like to read Chilly or Kitty response to topshelf about 32 X or Quake then.

Replying to a comment you make at me or your attempts to insult me isn't trying to have the last word. Trying to have the last word would be the discussion being over and me bringing up something unrelated or already discussed to try and get the last word in. I'm not doing that. I'm simply replying to your posts. You asked me to read post 158. I simply said I did and gave my thoughts. If you don't want people to reply to you, then don't make posts that warrant a reply.

Vector2013
04-11-2013, 01:33 PM
If you don't want people to reply to you, then don't make posts that warrant a reply.

When did I make a post that warranted that reply ? He brought it up and I further discussed it then me and you re discussed. Stop acting like I initiated it. I'm not insulting you, if your wrong your wrong. I typed twice I wanted to see more Quake or 32 X comments here so let's stop this.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 01:35 PM
When did I make a post that warranted that reply ? He brought it up and I further discussed it then me and you re discussed. Stop acting like I initiated it. I'm not insulting you, if your wrong your wrong. I typed twice I wanted to see more Quake or 32 X comments here so let's stop this.

Well this post right here warrants a reply because you are asking me a question.

So does this one:

I only responded to the snide remark made about me about it. (Read post 158 down. Read it.) That's where this all started again. You got the last word. I'd like to read Chilly or Kitty response to topshelf about 32 X or Quake.


I typed twice I wanted to see more Quake or 32 X comments here so let's stop this.

Then stop getting bent out of shape whenever someone posts something that reminds you of that incident. Drakon wasn't directly referring to that incident with you, you just read it that way.

madmax2069
04-11-2013, 01:36 PM
The mega everdrive is not expensive by a long shot. Considering how much money you save in collecting actual carts you should really think before you post. Until you take the time to build and develop something like the mega everdrive yourself and see just how much work goes into development you really shouldn't act like you know what a fair price is.

Wait, all I did was ask a few questions, and got a answer. No need to go get bent out of shape with me. Go take a chill pill.

Spending $5 at a time is a huge difference between spending $150 at a time. Yes its cheaper in the long run, but that's not what I was talking about. Not many people can justify spending $150 at once for this. Again you need to chill out

Vector2013
04-11-2013, 01:46 PM
en stop getting bent out of shape whenever someone posts something that reminds you of that incident.

I'm not getting bent out of shape, I simply responded.


Drakon wasn't directly referring to that incident with you, you just read it that way.


:fail:

Quake + 32 X = :cool:

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 02:01 PM
I'm not getting bent out of shape, I simply responded.

You responded with anger, that implies being bent out of shape.

Vector2013
04-11-2013, 02:11 PM
I wasn't angry. Stop talking bullshit. Where you here, did you see me mad ? You think I'm mad because I responded like that ? Enjoy being wrong though. If you think that's anger, you would cry if I really got mad then. Or better yet, you are right about everything. Done ?

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 02:36 PM
I wasn't angry. Stop talking bullshit. Where you here, did you see me mad ? You think I'm mad because I responded like that ? Enjoy being wrong though. If you think that's anger, you would cry if I really got mad then. Or better yet, you are right about everything. Done ?

You weren't raging angry, but your post certainly implied that your feathers were ruffled over it.

NeoVamp
04-11-2013, 03:21 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22587385.jpg

Chilly Willy
04-11-2013, 03:48 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22587385.jpg

:lol:

I hadn't seen that one before... and I second the motion. The whole thread comes down to: you need a ram cart, and no, the MegaED cannot be used as one for the 32X at this time (and no telling if and when that would ever change). The End.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 03:51 PM
:lol:

I hadn't seen that one before... and I second the motion. The whole thread comes down to: you need a ram cart, and no, the MegaED cannot be used as one for the 32X at this time (and no telling if and when that would ever change). The End.

So lock then?

madmax2069
04-11-2013, 07:38 PM
So lock then?

No, you both just need to stop. Locking a topic solves nothing. At least you two could have taken it to PM. Dragging it out in a topic only ruins the topic, like what has already happened. Sometimes one needs to learn to hold their tongue even if you don't like what was said, or again take it to PM, or ignore it. Guys showing your asses like a bunch of 10 year Olds.

Drakon
04-11-2013, 08:10 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22587385.jpg

It's trekkies...he lives for this stuff.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-11-2013, 08:35 PM
At least you two could have taken it to PM.

I asked him to multiple times.


It's trekkies...he lives for this stuff.

I don't live for this stuff anymore than you do.

NeoVamp
04-11-2013, 11:18 PM
I don't live for this stuff anymore than you do.

I don't think anyone lives for this stuff, its just hard not to give into debate when someone calls you out..

I've had so many of them here, and I ask myself why do I even bother, what starts as a nice conversation ends with fact throwing,
NO ONLY I HAS THE TRUE FACTS, YOU GOT A NUMBER WRONG, YOUR PENIS IS THUS SMALLER HA HA HA.

ugh.. I need to quit coming here, its gone from fun nostalgia to a pissing contest.

madmax2069
04-12-2013, 01:11 AM
I asked him to multiple times.



I don't live for this stuff anymore than you do.

You could have been the better and only replied to him by PM regardless of if he did or not. he could have got the hint and you all could have continued unseen by everyone. Anymore here lately tempers seem to be through the roof and are being directed at each other for trivial crap.

Drakon
04-12-2013, 08:09 AM
I don't live for this stuff anymore than you do.

You get into these arguments with many people. I only get into these long-winded arguments with only you. Denial is your friend. You can spend all day pointing your fingers at people who don't put up with your constant arguing but the fact remains that you clearly get into these arguments far more than anyone else. When was the last time you considered someone to be wrong and you just simply dropped arguing with the person without changing their opinion to match yours?


You could have been the better and only replied to him by PM regardless of if he did or not. he could have got the hint and you all could have continued unseen by everyone. Anymore here lately tempers seem to be through the roof and are being directed at each other for trivial crap.

I've met many people on forums who're great at taking "trivial crap" and make it sound like it's life or death. I agree, it's silly.


I don't think anyone lives for this stuff, its just hard not to give into debate when someone calls you out..

I've had so many of them here, and I ask myself why do I even bother, what starts as a nice conversation ends with fact throwing,
NO ONLY I HAS THE TRUE FACTS, YOU GOT A NUMBER WRONG, YOUR PENIS IS THUS SMALLER HA HA HA.

ugh.. I need to quit coming here, its gone from fun nostalgia to a pissing contest.

I get people "calling me out" on completely wrong things all the time, I usually just roll my eyes and don't bother trying to reason with them. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong and I'll admit to it, if they're wrong unless it's painfully obvious I won't bother trying to make them realize their mistake. Sometimes I do make mistakes and then I get the fact police throwing a mistake party, and sometimes people throw a mistake party when they're actually wrong. Personally I'd rather just correct the person once and if they refuse to accept it then just let the person continue lying. There's no point in arguing with the person until they get it right in your eyes, and there's no point in making it seem like every fact is life and death.

My point is getting the facts right should be what's important not "who can win the argument wars". Correct the person once, if they don't want to be corrected, then what makes you think endless arguing is going to accomplish anything besides pages of useless annoying posts?

Vector2013
04-12-2013, 10:52 AM
Well then let me be the first person on this page to talk about the subject. Can't their be a way to use a "fmv window" like 240 x 180 or whatever window to show the game like Doom and have a couple guys on screen without using a ram cart ? I mean okay it will be a 32 bit Quake that kind of looks like doom isn't that good enough ? Why the need for a ram cart, I'm sure more could be done with it by why bother. Let's say somebody makes this, I'd be happy if it looked like Wolf but a Quake game. It's cool the source code is out there.

TrekkiesUnite118
04-12-2013, 11:29 AM
You get into these arguments with many people. I only get into these long-winded arguments with only you. Denial is your friend. You can spend all day pointing your fingers at people who don't put up with your constant arguing but the fact remains that you clearly get into these arguments far more than anyone else. When was the last time you considered someone to be wrong and you just simply dropped arguing with the person without changing their opinion to match yours?

So 2-3 people counts as many now? Aside from you, TA, Vector, and sometimes Barone I really don't get into that many bad arguments with people on this forum. And I typically do ignore you unless you make some stupidly snide remark about me, like you did above.

As for trying to force my opinions on others I don't do that at all. You can have your opinions all you want. The problem is some people here like to express their opinions as absolute facts (i.e. TA). That's when I get into an argument. All that happened here was I saw someone essentially trying to bribe people to port games and called them out on it. If I didn't someone else probably would have, which you actually did after I had already called him out on it or did you forget that?


You could have been the better and only replied to him by PM regardless of if he did or not. he could have got the hint and you all could have continued unseen by everyone. Anymore here lately tempers seem to be through the roof and are being directed at each other for trivial crap.

I didn't lose my Temper. I was quite calm the entire time. If you go back and look at my posts I didn't use caps, bolded statements, exclamation points, or anything that would imply I was angry.

And for the record, Vector and I have settled this through PMs. You guys now are the ones not letting the subject die.


Well then let me be the first person on this page to talk about the subject. Can't their be a way to use a "fmv window" like 240 x 180 or whatever window to show the game like Doom and have a couple guys on screen without using a ram cart ? I mean okay it will be a 32 bit Quake that kind of looks like doom isn't that good enough ? Why the need for a ram cart, I'm sure more could be done with it by why bother. Let's say somebody makes this, I'd be happy if it looked like Wolf but a Quake game. It's cool the source code is out there.

Well an FMV Window would work but it would be just that, an FMV. You wouldn't be able to play it. The problem with RAM is just how much each level requires with all the enemies and architecture as well as the Quake Engine itself. You could get something running that looked kind of like Quake, but it wouldn't be Quake if that makes sense. Levels would have to be cut or altered so much to the point that it wouldn't really be Quake anymore.

Drakon
04-12-2013, 12:54 PM
You have a point about barone, that guy can be a real instigator.

Sometimes it seems to me like you consider people as almost always listing their opinion as "absolute fact". I just assume something a person posts is an opinion unless they provide links to reliable proof.

Vector2013
04-12-2013, 10:22 PM
Well an FMV Window would work but it would be just that, an FMV. You wouldn't be able to play it. The problem with RAM is just how much each level requires with all the enemies and architecture as well as the Quake Engine itself. You could get something running that looked kind of like Quake, but it wouldn't be Quake if that makes sense. Levels would have to be cut or altered so much to the point that it wouldn't really be Quake anymore.

By FMV window, like I said I kind of meant the size of those, like Doom on 32 x seemed a little bit bigger window than those FMV sega cd windows I don't know resolution so I call those window games where graphics only take up like 75% of screen and a dull border appears around it on rest of your tv. Let's just say Night Trap on Sega CD or Doom on 32 x had a 240 x 180 window (instead of 320 x 240 or whatever regular "full screen window" was for almost all games), Quake would run on that too and I'm sure RAM could handle enemies popping but I guess your saying it wouldn't look or feel like Quake that way.

NeoVamp
04-13-2013, 11:18 AM
You mean a bordered game, where borders make the screen smaller so the game can run with more FPS because there's less going on.

FMW means full motion video, which really only refers to video stuff like Night Trap.

Doom is an FPS shooters with borders and Night Trap is an FMV game with borders.

Both borders serve the same purpose though, to make the screen size smaller, for Doom it was to get more frames per second,
for Night Trap it was to hide the fact that the video was such low res.

Chilly Willy
04-13-2013, 01:22 PM
It's not the size of the rendered display that is the problem - it's the amount of geometry in the level, the amount of textures in the surfaces, the number of objects, and the models for said objects that is the problem. You're looking at a HUGE bank switched rom (no flash that large yet), or you need to load off SD or CD into ram (which doesn't exist). The flash carts out don't support a large enough rom to run the game entirely in rom - you would need to split the game into small pieces and play each piece individually.

NeoVamp
04-13-2013, 01:59 PM
The flash carts out don't support a large enough rom to run the game entirely in rom

Aah but doesn't the Mega-Everdrive support loading files from the SD card during the game? I remember talking to Krikkz about this,
and he said that it should be possible to program a game to stream for example music off the SD card while the game is playing.

I think we were talking about Mortal Kombat, then again might have been something else. or someone else, my memory is getting fuzzy.

Chilly Willy
04-13-2013, 03:28 PM
Aah but doesn't the Mega-Everdrive support loading files from the SD card during the game? I remember talking to Krikkz about this,
and he said that it should be possible to program a game to stream for example music off the SD card while the game is playing.


And what will you load that data from the SD into? You cannot use the ram as ram in 32X mode, and if you switch into a different mode, the 32X cannot use the ram in the cart at all. You would have to completely suspend the 32X, switch back to OS mode, load data, then switch back into 32X mode. While doable, it's not a very effective way to handle the issue. You're making the mother of all loading screens for any time anything has to be loaded from SD.

Greg2600
04-13-2013, 04:09 PM
Seriously Quake? A game that came out 2 years after the 32X was canceled, and was found on the Saturn and N64?

sheath
04-13-2013, 04:16 PM
Yeah, but the point of the 32X was to offer lower end versions of games for that generation. Obviously engines like Quake weren't in mind with the 32X, but I think it is interesting that more RAM is the primary thing the 32X would have needed to "run" the game though.

NeoVamp
04-13-2013, 06:30 PM
You cannot use the ram as ram in 32X mode

Oh yeah we were talking about the 32X, my mistake! http://www.sega-16.com/forum/images/icons/sweat.gif

doitonthemegaeverdriveandusethefpgatopoweritthenus ethegenesispalettesomuchbrown!

Drakon
04-13-2013, 06:37 PM
Seriously Quake? A game that came out 2 years after the 32X was canceled, and was found on the Saturn and N64?

I don't know about you but I want halflife 2 on my 32x.

Chilly Willy
04-13-2013, 08:01 PM
I don't know about you but I want halflife 2 on my 32x.

Far Cry 3. :D

Flygon
04-13-2013, 10:50 PM
Far Cry 3. :D
Noooo. Crysis!



Perhaps easier, by this point, to use a laptop as a GPU for the 32x. :p

Vector2013
04-13-2013, 11:08 PM
You mean a bordered game, where borders make the screen smaller so the game can run with more FPS because there's less going on.

Ah yes bordered game, thanks.



FMW means full motion video, which really only refers to video stuff like Night Trap.

I know.



Doom is an FPS shooters with borders and Night Trap is an FMV game with borders.

I know, I mentioned dull borders for both in post.



Both borders serve the same purpose though, to make the screen size smaller, for Doom it was to get more frames per second,
for Night Trap it was to hide the fact that the video was such low res.

Yes, that is why I brought it up.


By FMV window, like I said I kind of meant the size of those, like Doom on 32 x seemed a little bit bigger window than those FMV sega cd windows I don't know resolution so I call those window games where graphics only take up like 75% of screen and a dull border appears around it on rest of your tv. Let's just say Night Trap on Sega CD or Doom on 32 x had a 240 x 180 window (instead of 320 x 240 or whatever regular "full screen window" was for almost all games), Quake would run on that too and I'm sure RAM could handle enemies popping but I guess your saying it wouldn't look or feel like Quake that way.

Chilly answered that though.


Wouldn't it be "exactly" like Doom64 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_64)! Not what you expect either, but better than regular Doom! (Graphically) minus the GL Filter of course!

Edit. Thought you guys might be interested in this.

9a2bOXHzIAw

Greg2600
04-14-2013, 10:48 AM
Yeah, but the point of the 32X was to offer lower end versions of games for that generation. Obviously engines like Quake weren't in mind with the 32X, but I think it is interesting that more RAM is the primary thing the 32X would have needed to "run" the game though.

Ah yes, the infamous 90's "you just need more RAM" quote I'd get from computer store geeks as to why said game did not work on my computer.

Chilly Willy
04-14-2013, 02:44 PM
Ah yes, the infamous 90's "you just need more RAM" quote I'd get from computer store geeks as to why said game did not work on my computer.

Those were the CHEAP geeks - the expensive ones would tell you "you just need a new/faster CPU." :lol:

The 32X is capable of handling quite a few old DOS/VGA games... except it doesn't have the ram. A cool hardware mod for the 32X would be to replace the 256KB of SDRAM with something like 4, 8, or 16 MB of SDRAM. The SH2 can handle up to 32 MB of SDRAM in the space alloted to ram on the 32X.

madmax2069
04-14-2013, 03:06 PM
Those were the CHEAP geeks - the expensive ones would tell you "you just need a new/faster CPU." :lol:

The 32X is capable of handling quite a few old DOS/VGA games... except it doesn't have the ram. A cool hardware mod for the 32X would be to replace the 256KB of SDRAM with something like 4, 8, or 16 MB of SDRAM. The SH2 can handle up to 32 MB of SDRAM in the space alloted to ram on the 32X.

Now that would be interesting to see.

FuturePrimitive
04-14-2013, 03:33 PM
Those were the CHEAP geeks - the expensive ones would tell you "you just need a new/faster CPU." :lol:

The 32X is capable of handling quite a few old DOS/VGA games... except it doesn't have the ram. A cool hardware mod for the 32X would be to replace the 256KB of SDRAM with something like 4, 8, or 16 MB of SDRAM. The SH2 can handle up to 32 MB of SDRAM in the space alloted to ram on the 32X.
Would this kind of mod affect the original 32X games in any way?

madmax2069
04-14-2013, 04:29 PM
Would this kind of mod affect the original 32X games in any way?

Probably not, unless for some reason the memory address space changes but that's not likely.

It would probably be similar to the memory mod for the original Xbox making it 128 megabytes instead of just 64. But no original software took advantage of it because it wasn't written to take advantage of the extra ram, the games played the same as if the system was unmodded.

Homebrew would be the only software that could benifit from it, that is if it was written to take advantage of the extra ram.

FuturePrimitive
04-14-2013, 04:37 PM
Probably not, unless for some reason the memory address changes but that's not likely.

It would probably be similar to the memory mod for the original Xbox making it 128 megabytes instead of just 64. But no original software took advantage of it because it wasn't written to take advantage of the extra ram, the games played the same as if the system was unmodded.

Homebrew would be the only software that could benifit from it, that is if it was written to take advantage of the extra ram.
Ah, I understand now. I hope I'm not the only one that wishes for more homebrew development for the 32X. The problem is, these homebrews would cater to a niche market.

madmax2069
04-14-2013, 04:56 PM
Ah, I understand now. I hope I'm not the only one that wishes for more homebrew development for the 32X. The problem is, these homebrews would cater to a niche market.

True

About the only downfall I could see from a memory modded 32x, and homebrew that required a memory modded 32x, is a segmentation of a already niche system.

No, you are not the only one that wishes for more 32x homebrew.

Chilly Willy
04-14-2013, 06:28 PM
About the only downfall I could see from a memory modded 32x, and homebrew that required a memory modded 32x, is a segmentation of a already niche system.

Exactly. It's not like the N64 where you can tell people to just buy the 4MB memory expansion pack.

On the other hand, it would be easy to add to 32X emulators, so it's not like no one would be able to use it. In fact, I imagine 100X more people run 32X via emulation than real hardware.


No, you are not the only one that wishes for more 32x homebrew.

Which is why I make threads on building a toolchain, and post lots of examples and ports. I can do a few things myself, but making what I do open means that hopefully others can make something as well, multiplying the homebrew available.

Drakon
04-14-2013, 08:57 PM
Ah yes bordered game, thanks.



I know.



I know, I mentioned dull borders for both in post.



Yes, that is why I brought it up.



Chilly answered that though.



Edit. Thought you guys might be interested in this.

9a2bOXHzIAw

That's an epic hack.

Vector2013
04-15-2013, 04:16 AM
I hope I'm not the only one that wishes for more homebrew development for the 32X.

Definitely not, me and others here really like the 32 x games and would like more games one day. Just want to post this here for instruction for Wolf on ED. Here is a comment to Chilly.

"DXSnakeEater 1 month ago

Challenge for Chilly Willy and some other people. Recreate Doom 32x where most data and music is stored on a CD that would go on the CD drive, and graphics would go through the 32x system. As an option, bring back some of the missing levels and endings and such."

Would it be better to do a 32xcd version then instead of rom + cd audio playing on sega cd ?

nUA5Mub8MQc

sheath
04-15-2013, 08:58 AM
There is already a Doom 32X mod that includes all of the levels. Chilly is working on a Doom port, not adaptation, that includes the CD for its RAM. I can't remember if that is a port of Jag Doom or DOS Doom though, I think he said there would never be enough RAM for a source port of DOS Doom.

Chilly Willy
04-15-2013, 01:27 PM
If you try to do Doom on the CD32X as it is, you would spend most of your time swapping data off the CD. Doom likes to have a 6MB heap for game data, and the CD32X hasn't got anywhere near that. That's the main slow down in the cart port of Doom - the game data in the cart is COMPRESSED, so the game has to decompress the data into ram before it can be used. There's so little ram that the game spends more time decompressing data into a tiny heap than anything else. Doom would be best in a BIG bank selected cart with everything uncompressed. DOS Doom could have been perfectly replicated (near perfect, anyway) if they had used a 10 MB cart.

Drakon
04-15-2013, 06:19 PM
I'm sorry if I asked this before....what's the largest possible rom size a 32x cart can be?

madmax2069
04-15-2013, 07:00 PM
I'm sorry if I asked this before....what's the largest possible rom size a 32x cart can be?

From what I have seen is 4 MB without bank switching, and 32 MB split into 512 KB segments

TmEE
04-15-2013, 07:44 PM
It can be 1GByte and beyond if you want to. Same deal with stuff like MD, SMS, NES, SNES, even A2600. There are no real limits, all comes down to how much hardware do you want to pack into the cart.

Drakon
04-15-2013, 08:16 PM
From what I have seen is 4 MB without bank switching, and 32 MB split into 512 KB segments

are we talking bits or bytes?

http://officedepotca.cachefly.net/getDynamicImage.aspx?width=300&height=300&path=Nabisco-World-Bits-and-Bites-Snacks-06NA112ORG.jpg

sheath
04-15-2013, 08:44 PM
Capital B is always Bytes. Unless it is misused.

WalterJ64bit
04-17-2013, 07:53 AM
WOW, this is long thread! Anyway there is guy trying to make JagQuake he's running into some of the same problems running out RAM, if it's going to be on a 6BM cart it's going be super costly to make the cart.

slobu
05-09-2013, 12:12 PM
Doesn't seem like porting an engine made for a different platform is the answer.

Chilly Willy
05-09-2013, 03:17 PM
Doesn't seem like porting an engine made for a different platform is the answer.

Probably not. The "best" solution is probably to build a 3D engine from the ground up specifically for the CD32X and then find someone willing to make Quake levels for the new engine.

kool kitty89
05-10-2013, 03:06 AM
From what I have seen is 4 MB without bank switching, and 32 MB split into 512 KB segments
That 32 MB (that's mega bytes -so 256 Mbits) limit is specifically for the Sega mapper Capcom used in Super Street Fighter II, but there's nothing preventing a different mapping scheme of setting a much larger upper limit or using a different bank size for that matter (among other things). It's also the only mapper scheme commonly supported by flash carts, though I don't think any currently supports that full 32 MB range.

That 4 MB (32 Mbit) limit is for the default standard memory map allotted to carts on the MD. However, there's actually 10 MB of "free" space available without bank switching if you use the "reserved" address space that ended up being used for the MCD and 32x. (flash carts don't commonly support this format either AFIK)

madmax2069
05-10-2013, 10:06 AM
That 32 MB (that's mega bytes -so 256 Mbits) limit is specifically for the Sega mapper Capcom used in Super Street Fighter II, but there's nothing preventing a different mapping scheme of setting a much larger upper limit or using a different bank size for that matter (among other things). It's also the only mapper scheme commonly supported by flash carts, though I don't think any currently supports that full 32 MB range.


Doesn't the Mega everdrive only support up to 10MB rom's, and from what I recall is that if that was used it conflicts with the 32x and Sega CD. Would that be able to be worked around or is it a address limit when both the 32x and Sega CD is installed.

Chilly Willy
05-10-2013, 01:30 PM
Doesn't the Mega everdrive only support up to 10MB rom's, and from what I recall is that if that was used it conflicts with the 32x and Sega CD. Would that be able to be worked around or is it a address limit when both the 32x and Sega CD is installed.

The SSF mapping in the MegaEverdrive supports up to 8MBytes of mapping, and KRIKzz has been working on an extended form of the SSF mapper for the MegaEverdrive for homebrew usage. It will allow up to 14MB of rom mapping if you use the save ram area, and up to 15MB if you don't. The MegaED has 16MB of ram, but the last 1MB is always used for the OS. I've been providing KRIKzz with test programs to work out the kinks in the mode. This extended mapper will work with the 32X and CD - it uses the same kind of bank selection as the Sega mapper with rom page values up to 27 or 29 (depending on if you use the save ram), but changes the base control register slightly to allow bank selecting the base bank, setting 32X mode, allowing writing to the ram, and control of the LED.

That's the great thing about the MegaEverdrive - the FPGA allows changes to the "hardware" of the cart by just changing the menu you use.

madmax2069
05-10-2013, 02:12 PM
The SSF mapping in the MegaEverdrive supports up to 8MBytes of mapping, and KRIKzz has been working on an extended form of the SSF mapper for the MegaEverdrive for homebrew usage. It will allow up to 14MB of rom mapping if you use the save ram area, and up to 15MB if you don't. The MegaED has 16MB of ram, but the last 1MB is always used for the OS. I've been providing KRIKzz with test programs to work out the kinks in the mode. This extended mapper will work with the 32X and CD - it uses the same kind of bank selection as the Sega mapper with rom page values up to 27 or 29 (depending on if you use the save ram), but changes the base control register slightly to allow bank selecting the base bank, setting 32X mode, allowing writing to the ram, and control of the LED.

That's the great thing about the MegaEverdrive - the FPGA allows changes to the "hardware" of the cart by just changing the menu you use.

Epic, glad to see you are helping krikzz improve the Mega everdrive.

Vector2013
05-12-2013, 10:34 AM
Epic, glad to see you are helping krikzz improve the Mega everdrive.

Cool Chilly. Will that be a firmware update or a 3rd Mega Everdrive will be released ? (Everdrive MD, Mega ED).

NeoVamp
05-12-2013, 11:40 AM
Cool Chilly. Will that be a firmware update or a 3rd Mega Everdrive will be released ? (Everdrive MD, Mega ED).

Technically that would be a 2nd Mega Everdrive, since Everdrive and Mega Everdrive are quite different.

And I doubt that, because the FPGA allows for big enough changes not to warrant another hardware revision.

.. He better not release a better one, I already paid quite a bit for my M-ED!!

Chilly Willy
05-12-2013, 02:21 PM
Just a new menu file for the MegaED. As I said, the FPGA allows you to change the cart radically without changing the cart. :D

Da_Shocker
05-13-2013, 03:21 PM
Ah it's good to see that we finally got back on topic. So Chilly how large of a rom cart would you need to make a great port of Quake?

TrekkiesUnite118
05-13-2013, 03:41 PM
I'm still waiting for the Mega Everdrive to get YM2413 support.

Chilly Willy
05-13-2013, 09:47 PM
Ah it's good to see that we finally got back on topic. So Chilly how large of a rom cart would you need to make a great port of Quake?

If he allowed SD access in 32X mode, it would work on the current MED. KRIKzz said he'd look into that later. The MED is currently the best cart for future homebrew. :D

sheath
05-14-2013, 07:58 AM
Is SD as fast as ROM? I get the impression that it isn't, but I guess we wouldn't mind load times.

sheath
05-14-2013, 08:15 AM
Yup, but Chilly was suggesting direct access to the SD card for a full version of Quake.

Chilly Willy
05-14-2013, 05:52 PM
Yup, but Chilly was suggesting direct access to the SD card for a full version of Quake.

Actually, I already know how to access the CD from a 32X rom (as seen in my last update to Wolf32X). So all I need is the ability to write the ram in the cart from the MD side and I can use the CD for reading files. I have asked KRIKzz to look into the issue writing the ram in 32X mode - the last update he sent me was supposed to allow that, but had a problem. Once that's worked out, CD32X games become quite doable. :D

SD would be faster - the MED gets about 3MB/s transfer rates. Compare that to the SCD - it's a 1X CDROM, which is 150KB/s. So it's about 20X faster. However, slow access is better than no access.

Vector2013
05-14-2013, 07:22 PM
Technically that would be a 2nd Mega Everdrive, since Everdrive and Mega Everdrive are quite different.

And I doubt that, because the FPGA allows for big enough changes not to warrant another hardware revision.

.. He better not release a better one, I already paid quite a bit for my M-ED!!

I wouldn't say they are quite different as the Everdrive MD is the entry level Krill Sega Flashcart and the Mega Everdrive the the premium, same kind of flashcart but more upgrades, options and wayyy less loading times. :cool: I'd rather spend the extra $40 and play a 32 x game like VF or Chillys Wolf3D in 5 seconds rather than wait 5 minutes to load up. But true Neo, typo, I should have typed it a 3rd ED for MD. But yeah Everdrive MD and Mega Everdrive are out. Cool Chilly, glad a 2nd Mega Everdrive won't be needed. Yes Mega ED is very cool, glad it will get cooler. How exactly do I get a new menu then, d/l firmware straight from Krill site or contact Chilly or ?

Chilly Willy
05-14-2013, 09:22 PM
Once the bugs are worked out, KRIKzz will post a link to where it is on his board like all the other updates.

Vector2013
05-18-2013, 11:24 AM
Cool Chilly, but how do I do that exactly, d/l the files off his site, then just dump the data onto the sd card (from Mega ED) once in my pc then replace or put it in a folder called "o/s" or ?

madmax2069
05-18-2013, 04:57 PM
Cool Chilly, but how do I do that exactly, d/l the files off his site, then just dump the data onto the sd card (from Mega ED) once in my pc then replace or put it in a folder called "o/s" or ?

Just go to http://krikzz.com click on the device you have, click on download for the latest OS, or you can click on support forum and go to news and download the OS file there (he has a beta OS 7 posted now).

I do believe you need to check out the Mega everdrive manual on page 5 http://krikzz.com/pub/support/mega-ed/Mega_EverDrive_Manual_ENGLISH_PCBv1.00_FWv2_OSv1.p df

It tells you to make a folder named MEGA in the SD cards root and you place the OS file (named MEGAOS.BIN) inside that folder. All you do when updating is replace the OS file with the newer one