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Thread: Game Sack

  1. #3316
    Now with 33% more @$$! Master of Shinobi Assman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thief View Post
    Lol, Assman. But yeah, OK. I just really hate the MK2 port for Genesis. I even prefer MK1 Genesis graphics over MK2 graphics Genesis. That's how much I hate that port and the shitty job probe did with it. Fired up the 32X version of MK2 yesterday, and meh. If it wasn't for the music quality, I guess I could maybe say it's on par if not better then the SNES version? Then again, I still don't like how bones disappear in the 32X version during a Fatality just like the Genesis version, while in the SNES is stays. Despite the better sprite capabilities of the Genesis, let alone the 32x, lol.
    It is a nasty-looking port. Even with the MK2 Unlimited hack that addresses a lot of the missing samples and stuff, I just really don't like playing that game on the Genesis. I don't mind the 32X version, though; it's a mediocre upgrade, but at least the characters are all colored correctly, the backgrounds look slightly better and the health bars look right. I'd have to agree with you on the music. I know everyone here loves Matt Furniss, and I think his MK1 soundtrack is solid despite sounding nothing like the original, but MK2 just sounds like ass to me; there's just this weird wheezing quality to it.

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    Raging in the Streets SEGA.GENESIS1989's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assman View Post
    It is a nasty-looking port. Even with the MK2 Unlimited hack that addresses a lot of the missing samples and stuff, I just really don't like playing that game on the Genesis. I don't mind the 32X version, though; it's a mediocre upgrade, but at least the characters are all colored correctly, the backgrounds look slightly better and the health bars look right. I'd have to agree with you on the music. I know everyone here loves Matt Furniss, and I think his MK1 soundtrack is solid despite sounding nothing like the original, but MK2 just sounds like ass to me; there's just this weird wheezing quality to it.
    Wheezing quality you say? I've never heard my console wheeze when playing Mortal Kombat 2. Maybe your SEGA Genesis has bronchitis or some type of chest infection!
    "There's nothing to fear, except fear itself"
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    Raging in the Streets A Black Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thief View Post
    Those are not 512 colours on screen, Black Falcon. Nowhere near from what it seems like at a first glance.

    Just like Genesis games didn't do 64/62 colours on screen and more like around 30 colours total on screen. And just like how SNES games didn't even come close to it's 256 colour limit and more like around 100. Heard early gen SNES games didn't even pass 100 colours on screen even.
    Uh, no games back then used the maximum number of colors. Why would you think I was saying that? That's got little to do with my point. The point is about the PALETTE, not just the number of colors on screen. This should have been very clear, how did you misunderstand?

    If you need to be reminded about why a larger color palette matters, read Barone's post. He does a great job explaining why more colors in a palette is important and relevant. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...591#post697591

    So yeah, no. Guess you can say the devs just didn't make the most of what they could of or just were happy enough with the colours they used, or the game engine they used hit it's limit? They there is also total pixels available, etc. Who knows? But there are many reasons for why some things turned out like is, thus very hard to find examples by just comparing games.

    Then there is also cart space. If Heavy Unit were not a first gen game and a late gen game with bigger ROM space, it would of done so much better to match the Genesis version instead of looking like an 8-Bit game.
    I'm not sure what most of this has to do with the discussion, but again, Barone's post does a good job of explaining why palette size matters. Of course the number of colors you can display on screen at once matters too, but so does the overall palette size.

    As for why games didn't seem to almost ever actually use the maximum number of possible colors, particularly on SNES and TG16, that's a good question. There's probably a technical answer for it. Games for those systems DO often use more colors than a Genesis game could display, though, and for the SNES the larger palette is a big plus.

    The Game Gear versus the Master System example has also been mentioned on this point, and resolution aside, I absolutely agree that GG graphics are quite a bit better than SMS! GG games seem more slowdown-riddled than SMS games, but the graphics sure are better. Compare games released on both platforms and the image-quality advantages of the GG's larger palette are clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gogogadget View Post
    I was talking about the SNES, not the PCE.
    Oh. If you were talking about the SNES though, why the mention of 512 colors? The SNES can "only" display 256 colors at once...

  4. #3319
    Now with 33% more @$$! Master of Shinobi Assman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA.GENESIS1989 View Post
    Wheezing quality you say? I've never heard my console wheeze when playing Mortal Kombat 2. Maybe your SEGA Genesis has bronchitis or some type of chest infection!
    You might be right. I caught some bimbo playing it the other night, and there's no telling what she had. Guess who had to pay her cab fare too? My Genesis is a slut and a cheap ass.

    Wheezing may not be the most accurate way of putting it, but I dunno, there's a sort of lo-fi whininess and tinniness in some of the instruments that I find unappealing (and no, I'm not using a model 2 or a bad model 1, so let's not go there). The sustained note during a fatality would be a good example of what I'm talking about.

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    Raging in the Streets SEGA.GENESIS1989's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assman View Post
    You might be right. I caught some bimbo playing it the other night, and there's no telling what she had. Guess who had to pay her cab fare too? My Genesis is a slut and a cheap ass.

    Wheezing may not be the most accurate way of putting it, but I dunno, there's a sort of lo-fi whininess and tinniness in some of the instruments that I find unappealing (and no, I'm not using a model 2 or a bad model 1, so let's not go there). The sustained note during a fatality would be a good example of what I'm talking about.
    Maybe she had crabs!

    But why is the console wheezing? ..... OHHHHHHHHHH!

    *Never mind*
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomaitheous View Post
    Barone: I know exactly what you mean. Certain ranges of grey; green-grey and blue-grey specifically. Browns are another one, and certain ranges of oranges. Everything else seems is usually fine. There's a certain peach-colored flesh tone that sometimes doesn't convert well, but recoloring usually fixes this, where as the other problem colors mentioned are much harder to fix. In that respect, 1024 colors would have been nice (an intensity bit that would effect the output for that color. So two sets of 512 colors, one set as normal and one set where they fit exactly in between all the normal values. CRAM would be 10 bit. Some arcade systems do this).
    Agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by tomaitheous View Post
    On PCE, the RGB cram value is actually used as a pointer to a LUT inside the VCE, with YUV values. These values are 5bit, which isn't enough to directly represent the RGB translation, so the table has a bias in it (looks purposely done, than just actual rounding errors). So, you tend to get blues, greys, and purples that blend better on the real hardware than the emulated raw RGB stuff (or RGB or s-video modified consoles). So usually the opposite from what you're describing on MD. But I can relate to the brown/red thing. Just because there aren't very many 'steps' in that area, the steps can sometimes be more pronounced on the real hardware.
    Whatever solution the PCE went with it's probably better than the MD's.

    Look at this (Stage 6 - Willow Cascade/Hakuna Matata):

    SNES version:


    MD version:
    ----------------------Original-----------------------------------------------Pyron----------------------------------------------Barone----------------------





    MD version (at 5:19) (original/Pyron version - both emulated)



    I made my own version of the foreground because on real hardware Pyron's version looks really red-ish IMO. Looking at the screenshots or on the emulator, his version looks fine and mine seems to be far from the SNES one, but on real hardware and using CRT TVs I find mine looking closer to the SNES one.

    That's what I'm talking about.

    And you can see that the original developers also didn't choose the more natural and darker brown tones. Maybe they just screwed up like in several other parts of the game or maybe they also noticed this issue, IDK. Pyron simply followed the set of shades which would be closer to the SNES version and which would still provide a good contrast with Simba's color scheme.

    I took Pyron's version and chose a set of shades with the least amount of red possible.
    I also changed the darkest color, which was the darkest blue in the original (200) and darkest red in Pyron's version (002), to black (000) in my version (notice the lack of vertical bars in my version). Those vertical bars were there to try to simulate the SNES darkest color which is a very dark brown the Mega Drive palette doesn't have.

    This color issue is something which annoys me on the MD. It seems to be easier to notice on RGB or PAL system than on NTSC using composite, for an example, since the NTSC colors usually bring the red tones close to purple/have some blue on it.

    It might be something that Sega didn't notice or didn't care at first since the original blurry composite output on NTSC-J systems may hide it a bit, but I think it's interesting to notice how these dark brown, red-ish brown and pure red tones seen to have been AVOIDED in the SOJ's Sonic games on the Mega Drive and also Ristar (by the Sonic Team) doesn't use these tones IIRC.
    I think they knew those tones were troublesome on the Mega Drive and simply got rid of them for the most part.

    Flink is a game which uses dark colors, looks great (I think most of people agree that it has one of the best color uses on the MD) and it was developed in Europe (PAL color system). But if you pay attention, they also don't use those red-ish brown tones in the game despite it using a lot of brown, instead they went with tones which are similar to those I went in my version of Willow Cascade - more on the "anemic" side of things.

    On top of that, I always thought that pure color tones, especially red and blue ones, looked bad on the MD. Bloodlines had tons of pure red and looked like ass IMO.
    I usually don't see this problem on the PCE, for an example.



    Quote Originally Posted by tomaitheous View Post
    On the topic of MD, I think high res looks decent with dithering. Too bad more games didn't take advantage of the 320x448 interlaced mode for still screen shots (even RPGs).
    Yeah, really. It's a shame that they didn't use it (awful conversion of The Lion King title screen comes to mind). Games like Snatcher could have tried it on the Sega CD as well.
    Last edited by Barone; 12-16-2014 at 03:32 AM.

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    Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    As for why games didn't seem to almost ever actually use the maximum number of possible colors, particularly on SNES and TG16, that's a good question. There's probably a technical answer for it.
    Not technical. Put 512 colours onscreen at the same time it'll look like rainbow vomit (specially when those 512 are all the ones you have, from black to white). On the SNES you can make better use of the number of colours available but even there you'll never have more than 100-150, there's just no point in using so many colours on such few pixels.

    The entire point of having many sub-palettes is freedom. Not being forced to share colours between backgrounds and sprites and whatever. Like has been said on this forum many times, if the genesis could freely use 64 colours anywhere there wouldn't be any problem (besides the master palette and the stuff barone mentioned).
    Last edited by Kamahl; 12-16-2014 at 07:28 AM.

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    I don't know about you guys, but Pyrons hack to make the Genesis Lion King look like the SNES is one I don't approve of. I much prefer the Genesis version from the first two levels I tried and the pics I'm seeing here. End of story for me. But then again, I'm really not crazy for this Disney game either. The only Disney games I enjoyed from my past where; Aladdin Genesis & Jungle Book SNES (could never beat the Genesis version of JB from the rental I tried unlike the SNES which I was able to beat. But it also didn't seem as good as the SNES. Item collecting before SMB64, what?). Gargoyles Genesis is one I missed. Tried via emulation and it looks promising + graphics as unbelievably great looking too.

    Actually the only Disney movie I loved from the 90's was Aladdin. All the other ones really let me down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assman View Post
    It is a nasty-looking port. Even with the MK2 Unlimited hack that addresses a lot of the missing samples and stuff, I just really don't like playing that game on the Genesis. I don't mind the 32X version, though; it's a mediocre upgrade, but at least the characters are all colored correctly, the backgrounds look slightly better and the health bars look right. I'd have to agree with you on the music. I know everyone here loves Matt Furniss, and I think his MK1 soundtrack is solid despite sounding nothing like the original, but MK2 just sounds like ass to me; there's just this weird wheezing quality to it.
    What?!! The same guy who did MK1 music ALSO did it for MK2?! What the heck happened?!!! MK1 had one of the best sound tracks on the Genesis EVER. It's the most beat of a soundtrack ever! Period! What the heck was he on? Or did someone replace his equipment with pop cans and tooth floss? Or maybe because he was forced to try to make it actually sound like the Arcade version instead of doing his own thing? Or was he given less memory to work with or some technical limitation the programmer forced on him to make MK2 better elsewhere for once but failed miserably, because Probe sucks so much. XD

    And as a bonus it's sound so moody, mean, powerful, very clear, and loud. Perfect for a fighter like this. I love it way more over the Arcade version. Why I wish someone would hack the Genesis soundtrack on the Sega CD version, since the Sega CD version has better gameplay and graphics. But until that happens, Genesis version all the way for me.

    Anyways so that's what that guys name is? Did he ever do anything as epic as MK1 ever again? Going to listen to MK1 Genesis soundtrack off YouTube in the meantime.



    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA.GENESIS1989 View Post
    Wheezing quality you say? I've never heard my console wheeze when playing Mortal Kombat 2. Maybe your SEGA Genesis has bronchitis or some type of chest infection!
    Gee I don't know. Is there something to the MK2 soundtrack I missed? But either way. No way it's anywhere near the quality of MK1 is still a very valid point.
    Last edited by Thief; 12-18-2014 at 08:27 AM.

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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    I'm a HUGE fan of MK1 on the MD, great music, the blood, it owned BITD.

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    Here is how the quality of Sega Genesis and other games of these eras should look like in a video;



    Ace is a member on this site. So please ask him how he achieved this CRT off actual hardware quality for YouTube videos, Joe. Thank you in advance. Because I really love this show very much and only want the best for it and how it represents us Sega Genesis fans.
    Last edited by Thief; 12-18-2014 at 08:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thief View Post
    Did he ever do anything as epic as MK1 ever again?
    Wolfchild, Puggsy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Oh. If you were talking about the SNES though, why the mention of 512 colors? The SNES can "only" display 256 colors at once...
    Ah, well. 256 colours is still plenty to play with when you think about it.

    Thought for sure SNES was 512, oh well.

  13. #3328
    ding-doaw Raging in the Streets tomaitheous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Agreed.



    Whatever solution the PCE went with it's probably better than the MD's.

    Look at this (Stage 6 - Willow Cascade/Hakuna Matata):

    SNES version:


    MD version:
    ----------------------Original-----------------------------------------------Pyron----------------------------------------------Barone----------------------





    MD version (at 5:19) (original/Pyron version - both emulated)



    I made my own version of the foreground because on real hardware Pyron's version looks really red-ish IMO. Looking at the screenshots or on the emulator, his version looks fine and mine seems to be far from the SNES one, but on real hardware and using CRT TVs I find mine looking closer to the SNES one.

    That's what I'm talking about.

    And you can see that the original developers also didn't choose the more natural and darker brown tones. Maybe they just screwed up like in several other parts of the game or maybe they also noticed this issue, IDK. Pyron simply followed the set of shades which would be closer to the SNES version and which would still provide a good contrast with Simba's color scheme.

    I took Pyron's version and chose a set of shades with the least amount of red possible.
    I also changed the darkest color, which was the darkest blue in the original (200) and darkest red in Pyron's version (002), to black (000) in my version (notice the lack of vertical bars in my version). Those vertical bars were there to try to simulate the SNES darkest color which is a very dark brown the Mega Drive palette doesn't have.

    This color issue is something which annoys me on the MD. It seems to be easier to notice on RGB or PAL system than on NTSC using composite, for an example, since the NTSC colors usually bring the red tones close to purple/have some blue on it.

    It might be something that Sega didn't notice or didn't care at first since the original blurry composite output on NTSC-J systems may hide it a bit, but I think it's interesting to notice how these dark brown, red-ish brown and pure red tones seen to have been AVOIDED in the SOJ's Sonic games on the Mega Drive and also Ristar (by the Sonic Team) doesn't use these tones IIRC.
    I think they knew those tones were troublesome on the Mega Drive and simply got rid of them for the most part.

    Flink is a game which uses dark colors, looks great (I think most of people agree that it has one of the best color uses on the MD) and it was developed in Europe (PAL color system). But if you pay attention, they also don't use those red-ish brown tones in the game despite it using a lot of brown, instead they went with tones which are similar to those I went in my version of Willow Cascade - more on the "anemic" side of things.






    Yeah, really. It's a shame that they didn't use it (awful conversion of The Lion King title screen comes to mind). Games like Snatcher could have tried it on the Sega CD as well.
    Yup. The perception of color or hue, is highly relative to the surrounding colors. This can both work for and against you, when using 512 color palette. You might pick that perfect gradient set of colors for brown or such (warm or cool), only to find that rest of the color scheme for the area/screen adds too much emphasis in the difference (it can exaggerate the difference as cool, or warm, or green, or yellowish, etc). And the end result can look like a game with segmented hue gradients that don't particularly match each other. I mean, this goes beyond the missing color steps. Not that, that isn't an issue as well ; 8 levels of R/G/B does not translate to 8 shades brown. Some 'colors' barely get 4 levels of shading out of it. And by shading, I mean color point A to color point B, where as B might always be 'black'. And four level of shading might be fine for a smaller 'object or pattern', but terrible for larger areas that need to blend over distance (and I'm not referring to just 'gradients').

    On top of that, I always thought that pure color tones, especially red and blue ones, looked bad on the MD. Bloodlines had tons of pure red and looked like ass IMO.
    I usually don't see this problem on the PCE, for an example.
    Here's the thing that I noticed on the PCE and MD (both over composite); PCE's composite signal appears less saturated than the MD's. At first, this seems to go against what you know or think about PCE games: known for bright/bold poppy colors. I think it gets more of that reputation because of emulation; people are viewing/play PCE games in RGB. The first Bonk game is a primary example. The Bonk sprite looks over saturated orange-ish flesh colored on emulators, but perfectly fine the real console via composite or RF. But actually, less saturated is an incorrect description; PCE palette just is more on cool side rather than the warm side. That's why you can get away with colors that are bright and closer to primaries on the PCE. I specifically remember BITD, that I would turn 'up' the color balance on my TV when playing TG/PCE games - and turn it down when playing most Gen/MD games. I had GnG for SGX back in 1993, and it looked really washed out (I had to crank the color balance for that game). Later on, when doing coding for the PCE - I noticed better blending of purples, greys, and blue of lower brightness on the real console as well. It wasn't until I looked at the patent for the VCE, and saw this internal YUV LUT - that it clicked. I used Chris Covell's 512 color demo with the capture card and confirmed it. That said, because it's a digital conversion - it's the same across all PCE systems. I always wondered if the different composite encoder chips in the different MD/Gen models had different bias from one another - enough for some colors to blend better, etc. But yeah, all those 'RGB' and 's-video' mods for the PCE make me sad: they don't have the true PCE palette, because the RGB lines from the VCE don't have this bias in the master palette. The only way really do a proper RGB mod, is to sample the signal and use the RGB out value as an index to a modified table and output that RGB instead. Not too difficult to pull off, because you have the direct output clock of the VCE to sync an ADC chip to - for perfect pixel capturing. The PCE actually technically outputs Y/Cr/Br, and externally mixes this as the composite signal. You can actually make proper s-video with this really easily, but yet people still rather go with an RGB->s-video conversion chip (again, losing that PCE palette in the translation). But no one seems to care, so I guess it's a moot point :P

  14. #3329
    Bite my shiny, metal ***! Hero of Algol retrospiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    MD version:
    ----------------------Original-----------------------------------------------Pyron----------------------------------------------Barone----------------------

    Love it! - However, it seems you actually 'lost' one of the darker colors (see the vertical dithering in both Pyron's hack and the original).
    The Mega Drive was far inferior to the NES in terms of diffusion rate and sales in the Japanese market, though there were ardent Sega users. But in the US and Europe, we knew Sega could challenge Nintendo. We aimed at dominating those markets, hiring experienced staff for our overseas department in Japan, and revitalising Sega of America and the ailing Virgin group in Europe.

    Then we set about developing killer games.

    - Hayao Nakayama, Mega Drive Collected Works (p. 17)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomaitheous View Post
    But no one seems to care, so I guess it's a moot point :P
    What?! NO! I care! lol.

    But very interesting the you mentioned the Hue level. I noticed that too while playing Genesis games and messing around with Blargg NTSC filter settings. Right now for Regen emu with that Blargg filter settings I have the Hue set to 5%, Saturation to 15% and with Composite selected. But I'm still messing around with these setting as I bounce from game to game and plus going from memory from what I remember from back in the day on games I've owned. But since you seem to be such an expert on this topic. How about you helping me out in finding out what best setting is for Regen emulator with Blargg NTSC filter settings?

    Two great examples of Hue & Saturation setting playing a very important role are for X-Men (Magneto's face in the intro should have human tanned skin colour + his red helmet shouldn't be looking like it's almost bleeding a really bright red) and Vectorman (the skies should be a shade of blue, if I'm correct, and not the more green it is in pixel perfect RBG setup). Lots more examples everywhere.

    But thanks again for the great info, tomaitheous!

    EDIT - my filter setting changed again. Hue at 1 now because I bumped gamma to 15.
    Last edited by Thief; 12-21-2014 at 11:10 AM.

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