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Thread: Game Sack

  1. #5146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    That is very interesting. Between the analyzer and dev-friendly Playstation hardware,
    proper support for transparencies and additive alpha-blending, more low and mid-resolution modes to choose from, all standard 3D modeling tools of the market supporting triangles and not quads,

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    it's such a contrast to Sega's dev teams' practice of generally not sharing their engines for hardware that required much more skill and planning.
    Saturn developers of 3D games were in for a long and painful nightmare.


    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Nintendo 64 devs could have really benefited from tools to strike a balance between textures/draw distance/framerate.
    Boss Game Studios was one of the very few N64 developers which at least tried to explore different setups and load balance for their games... And they achieve quite remarkable results IMO.
    Had the N64 software development platform been barely comprehensible and flexible; and the PS1 would have a much harder task trying to keep up with it in terms of graphics.

  2. #5147
    Mega Driven Raging in the Streets cleeg's Avatar
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    It's interesting when playing two versions of the same game on each console for sure, Soukyuu Gurentai and Thunderforce V in particular. Both look a little 'shinier' on PS with nicer transparencies and such, but run faster and with more visual layers on the Saturn; TF V's 'Human Road' level in particular. Interestingly, the former has extra cloud transparency layers on the Saturn on level three.

    Tomb Raider is a good example of the PS winning though, it's just that bit nicer to look at in general terms.

    I do agree that the PS was the best all rounder though, in almost any area you can mention in techy terms. In actual practice, in terms of general game playing experience they are pretty similar and definitely of their time. Not as similar as PS3 and XBox 360 though.

    I love both machines.

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    Raging in the Streets bultje112's Avatar
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    I don't think it's a good example of playstation winning. the differences are marginal. games like die hard arcade and fifa 98 are much better examples of playstation winning by a large margin. although due to incompetent and lazy developers.

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    ESWAT Veteran Da_Shocker's Avatar
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    I wish we knew what was exactly going on with Japan and the SGL 2.0 or whatever it was called. DoA used the VF2 engine and i'm pretty sure Anarchy In The Nippon used it too. Why on earth would SoJ give certain companies access and other companies nothing?



    Trekkies mentioned Resident Evil, Toshinden and Doom but 2 of the 3 were really Japan made properties and that would be on Sega of Japan to make sure those games are up to par. And as bad as Doom was they had better version of Hexen alongside great versions of Duke Nukem 3D and Quake. The Netlink was an interesting peripheral. But IMO the userbase simply wasn't there. I had to use the computers at the library to surf online and they only had the text based lynx browser. The days of using Alta Vista and Webcrawler
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltor View Post
    Japan on the other hand is in real danger, if Japanese men don't start liking to play with their woman, more then them selves, experts calculated the Japanese will be extinct within 300 years.

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    Raging in the Streets bultje112's Avatar
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    I also do not believe a word sega was not willing or hesitant to give their best developer tools to 3rd party companies

  6. #5151
    Bite my shiny, metal ***! Hero of Algol retrospiel's Avatar
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    The Saturn's problem was definitely NOT the hardware but almost everything else.

    -EDIT- Let me rephrase that: The Saturn's problem was not the lack of hardware power.
    The Mega Drive was far inferior to the NES in terms of diffusion rate and sales in the Japanese market, though there were ardent Sega users. But in the US and Europe, we knew Sega could challenge Nintendo. We aimed at dominating those markets, hiring experienced staff for our overseas department in Japan, and revitalising Sega of America and the ailing Virgin group in Europe.

    Then we set about developing killer games.

    - Hayao Nakayama, Mega Drive Collected Works (p. 17)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bultje112 View Post
    definitely not. had sega not completely fucked up retailers by doing their 'surprise' launch it would've been much different. sega still had a big name in videogames which sony had not.

    imagine a western release of the saturn in november/december 95 with virtua fighter 2, sega rally, virtua cop (I know they released a bit later). it would've blown playstation out of the water and immediately all would think saturn was more powerful and had the great exclusive games that playstation couldn't do. you can only make a first impression once and sega completely fucked it up and by then most retailers hated sega why turned out even worse since saturn was very hard to find.
    Thats why the Saturn was fucked, because Sega are idiots.

    That surprise launch is one of the the absolute dumbest ideas of all in gaming.

  8. #5153
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent avlon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The numbers for the PS1 version are still pretty low, considering that the console sold over 105 million units. Do you honestly think that the Saturn version would have sold even close to 50k in the US, based on its 1.5 million units sold by mid 1997?
    It was well known that the PS1 version was a shadow of the arcade version. Tons of animation cuts, and the main part of the game, the tag-team feature was barely functional. Same thing with KOF, and other 2D fighters on the Playstation. The Saturn version was as arcade perfect as you could get at the time.

    You keep bringing up sales figures without context, and this is a problem. Trekkies understands what you are saying, but I don't think you get what he's saying. Bad choices led to low sales, and expectations. Your question is why support something that didn't sell well. It's simple. Devs and enthusiasts still bought this console, and wanted games. The last thing that a company wants to do is to piss off its party support and brand ambassadors. It will cost you dearly the next time around, with the Dreamcast being the prime example. Sega started to correct their mistakes, but by then it was too late.
    Last edited by avlon; 04-06-2017 at 06:39 PM.

  9. #5154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    I wish we knew what was exactly going on with Japan and the SGL 2.0 or whatever it was called. DoA used the VF2 engine and i'm pretty sure Anarchy In The Nippon used it too. Why on earth would SoJ give certain companies access and other companies nothing?
    Sony's way:
    - We like your games and we're buying out your company. Now all your best tools and engines will be shared with our other second-parties and special partners.
    - Your studio no longer makes financial sense to our business; say goodbye to your job and best friends.

    Sega's way:
    - Mr. Naka doesn't want to share the engine he and his team designed.
    - We're getting out of the console hardware business.

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    Social Justice Ninja Master of Shinobi IrishNinja's Avatar
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    ^haha

    i've never been great with the technical end of things, but i've always been curious: let's create a hypothetical where the saturn's hardware was just as easy to code for/optimize as the PSX was. would sony not still have largely killed that gen due to:

    1) more favorable licensing agreements
    2) (from my understanding, please feel free to correct me here) pushing for C+/whatever over assembly?


  11. #5156
    ESWAT Veteran Da_Shocker's Avatar
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    Are there any SoA 3D games on the Saturn that are up to par with what SoJ was churning out? I can't remember ANYTHING off the top of my head. I mean I can think of Congo, that launch Hockey game, Ghen War, NBA Action. But nobody was talking about how impressive those games were. IIRC the most impressive games that came out for the Saturn that was made here was Duke Nukem 3D and Quake. And even those were outsourced to Lobotomy. Well if anyone has great 3D American Saturn games please post them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltor View Post
    Japan on the other hand is in real danger, if Japanese men don't start liking to play with their woman, more then them selves, experts calculated the Japanese will be extinct within 300 years.

  12. #5157
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avlon View Post
    It was well known that the PS1 version was a shadow of the arcade version. Tons of animation cuts, and the main part of the game, the tag-team feature was barely functional. Same thing with KOF, and other 2D fighters on the Playstation. The Saturn version was as arcade perfect as you could get at the time.

    You keep bringing up sales figures without context, and this is a problem. Trekkies understands what you are saying, but I don't think you get what he's saying. Bad choices led to low sales, and expectations. Your question is why support something that didn't sell well. It's simple. Devs and enthusiasts still bought this console, and wanted games. The last thing that a company wants to do is to piss off its party support and brand ambassadors. It will cost you dearly the next time around, with the Dreamcast being the prime example. Sega started to correct their mistakes, but by then it was too late.
    Here's the problem with his thinking. Anyone that knew about the Japanese versions of those Saturn games bought a 4M+ adapter and imported them. The idea that Sega could just sit on unsold hardware and extend the life of the Saturn by releasing niche titles to the small audience that still cared is just financial suicide. Especially when retail outlets will dump your shit if it isn't selling.

    And this is coming from a day 1 owner that had to play imports, because there was hardly any North American games to play back in May of 1995.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    Are there any SoA 3D games on the Saturn that are up to par with what SoJ was churning out? I can't remember ANYTHING off the top of my head. I mean I can think of Congo, that launch Hockey game, Ghen War, NBA Action. But nobody was talking about how impressive those games were. IIRC the most impressive games that came out for the Saturn that was made here was Duke Nukem 3D and Quake. And even those were outsourced to Lobotomy. Well if anyone has great 3D American Saturn games please post them.
    The Saturn version of Soviet Strike was considered better than the PlayStation version. It had nice colored reflective lighting with the explosions, while the ground sort of lit up white on the PlayStation version.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Here's a podcast interview with Jim Bagley on what happened with the Saturn port of DOOM. Skip ahead to 41:29.

    https://soundcloud.com/the-retro-hou...ry-games-coder
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    I wish we knew what was exactly going on with Japan and the SGL 2.0 or whatever it was called. DoA used the VF2 engine and i'm pretty sure Anarchy In The Nippon used it too. Why on earth would SoJ give certain companies access and other companies nothing?



    Trekkies mentioned Resident Evil, Toshinden and Doom but 2 of the 3 were really Japan made properties and that would be on Sega of Japan to make sure those games are up to par. And as bad as Doom was they had better version of Hexen alongside great versions of Duke Nukem 3D and Quake. The Netlink was an interesting peripheral. But IMO the userbase simply wasn't there. I had to use the computers at the library to surf online and they only had the text based lynx browser. The days of using Alta Vista and Webcrawler
    I really don't care who's responsibility it was for the quality control of those games, it sucked on both ends. Sega of America were the ones boasting that the Saturn port of Toshinden would be far superior to the PS1 port though. That was a bit of an embarrassment for them when it finally came out. Sega needed to step in more and have better quality control in general with the Saturn, and it had a far bigger impact on the western library as it seems those games got chosen far more often for release and heavy promotion than better games that showed off what the system could do.

    Sega's priorities were in the wrong place with the Saturn, and their quality control sucked.

    Quote Originally Posted by bultje112 View Post
    I also do not believe a word sega was not willing or hesitant to give their best developer tools to 3rd party companies
    They wouldn't even share the NiGHTS engine with Sega of America. You honestly think they were sharing their best with 3rd party developers?

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Here's the problem with his thinking. Anyone that knew about the Japanese versions of those Saturn games bought a 4M+ adapter and imported them. The idea that Sega could just sit on unsold hardware and extend the life of the Saturn by releasing niche titles to the small audience that still cared is just financial suicide. Especially when retail outlets will dump your shit if it isn't selling.

    And this is coming from a day 1 owner that had to play imports, because there was hardly any North American games to play back in May of 1995.
    But they wouldn't have needed to import them had they been released properly in a timely fashion. Those games could have also put the Saturn in a better light and helped push some hardware. Finally, if Sega had made better decisions and had better priorities earlier on, that dire situation might not have existed when those RAM cart games started coming out.

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