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Thread: Genesis and Snes sound chips strengths and weaknesses

  1. #151
    Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Posting these 2 wolfchild songs for great justice, Matt Furniss owning once again:




  2. #152
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderblaze16 View Post
    Jesus, if its just the soundtrack and not an actual video, quit uploading the ost video over here and just post it as a link.
    ↑ =/

  3. #153
    Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    ↑ =/

  4. #154
    What? Shir is gone? Raging in the Streets StarMist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinitosoccer View Post
    There's no other Capcom stuff on the Genesis (maybe Rockman Megaworld but i'm not sure) their only Genesis games were Super Street Fighter 2 and SF2CE.
    Neither Slam Masters nor Circus Mystery? (US).

  5. #155
    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
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    It's a bit odd that noone mentioned Ghouls n' Ghosts yet for the orchestral examples:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnAkCyRwMrU

    Albeit that's certainly quite synthy, it's still an interesting comparison. (the Genesis arrangements are more orchestral-like and complex in many cases though)
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

  6. #156
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Ghouls n' Ghosts' soundtrack is nowhere near as synthy as Super Ghouls n' Ghosts.

  7. #157
    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Ghouls n' Ghosts' soundtrack is nowhere near as synthy as Super Ghouls n' Ghosts.
    Yes, but we're comparing the GOOD examples of Orchestral-style music on both systems. (I don't mean good vs bad music, but good examples of that specific style)
    And as far as orchestral arrangements go, GnG is pretty synthy. (though nice -and I really do think the MD arrangements were improved over the Arcade in many cases, though both have their own characteristics -the SGX version did an excellent job replicating the Arcade though)
    Too bad Follin mostly replaced the soundtrack on the computer ports . . . it would have been interesting to see more remixes from him.


    Edit:
    In any case, this is probably one of the best tracks for the orchestral side of GnG:
    http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/...GnG/GnG-L5.mp3

    And perhaps this:
    http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/...nG-Ending2.mp3
    Well, a lot of that isn't very orchestral, but it's still cool.
    Last edited by kool kitty89; 10-04-2011 at 07:09 PM.
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

  8. #158
    ESWAT Veteran Da_Shocker's Avatar
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    Ya'll should've thrown the PCE in here for good measure.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomaitheous View Post
    I'm not sure how true this is. There are a lot of different sound engines for SNES games. I can't believe Nintendo made all of them. I suspect is was more like Nintendo not providing documentation and source for devs to write their own. in the early part of the SNES' life. And I suspected this changed over time.
    That sort of assertion came from this interview (I think):
    "Kikizo: Did you use it for SFC games, as well?

    Koshiro: No, I couldn't. The language used in the SFC was completely different. The chip was a Sony sound chip, and the system used for music programming was called NEWS (?), based on a UNIX system. Some company made a special system for it, so I just input the scores I had composed into it.

    Kikizo: So you weren't able to modify it to your liking like you could on the PC-88.

    Koshiro: That's right. It was very difficult to modify. I wanted to change it, but it was very rigid. The programmer of the system was able to optimize the sound a bit more, though, so that's why the quality of the sound in Actraiser is better than some of the earlier SFC stuff like Mario. The original sound system had limitations of 64KB memory, you see... but one of our programmers was able to modify it a bit. You couldn't use a lot of instruments with that sort of small memory size, and you couldn't reload any samples, either.

    Kikizo: What did you do exactly to get around those limitations?

    Koshiro:
    We used a sample loading system that worked with the cartridge ROM memory. with it, we could swap samples in from the ROM data on the fly. We could load parts of the music gradually as needed, and also change it quickly between stages or parts of a stage. The original system couldn't do it with its retrictions.

    Kikizo: I seem to remember hearing that a lot of later SFC games had huge amounts of cartridge memory devoted to holding sound samples. Like... Seiken Densetsu 3 had its own special set of sound drivers, and Tales of Phantasia's then-massive 48 megabit size was mostly due to holding music and voice.

    Koshiro:
    Yes, that's probably right. I think they most likely used something similar to the reloading system in Actraiser."
    http://archive.videogamesdaily.com/f...v_oct05_p2.asp

  10. #160
    Master of Shinobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    One thing that I don't like (in fact, I hate it) about the SNES games is what you've said in your considerations: many, many, MANY games share the very same set of instruments. Holy crap, how can people trash so much on Genesis sound and never talk about this?
    OTOH one of the things that I love about genesis is how many games sound completely different, using different drivers and sets of instruments.
    Exactly this. And the uncanny valley already mentioned... (tough MegaCD had the same problem).

  11. #161
    ding-doaw Raging in the Streets tomaitheous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    That sort of assertion came from this interview (I think):
    "Kikizo: Did you use it for SFC games, as well?

    Koshiro: No, I couldn't. The language used in the SFC was completely different. The chip was a Sony sound chip, and the system used for music programming was called NEWS (?), based on a UNIX system. Some company made a special system for it, so I just input the scores I had composed into it.

    Kikizo: So you weren't able to modify it to your liking like you could on the PC-88.

    Koshiro: That's right. It was very difficult to modify. I wanted to change it, but it was very rigid. The programmer of the system was able to optimize the sound a bit more, though, so that's why the quality of the sound in Actraiser is better than some of the earlier SFC stuff like Mario. The original sound system had limitations of 64KB memory, you see... but one of our programmers was able to modify it a bit. You couldn't use a lot of instruments with that sort of small memory size, and you couldn't reload any samples, either.

    Kikizo: What did you do exactly to get around those limitations?

    Koshiro:
    We used a sample loading system that worked with the cartridge ROM memory. with it, we could swap samples in from the ROM data on the fly. We could load parts of the music gradually as needed, and also change it quickly between stages or parts of a stage. The original system couldn't do it with its retrictions.

    Kikizo: I seem to remember hearing that a lot of later SFC games had huge amounts of cartridge memory devoted to holding sound samples. Like... Seiken Densetsu 3 had its own special set of sound drivers, and Tales of Phantasia's then-massive 48 megabit size was mostly due to holding music and voice.

    Koshiro:
    Yes, that's probably right. I think they most likely used something similar to the reloading system in Actraiser."
    http://archive.videogamesdaily.com/f...v_oct05_p2.asp
    Actraiser is an early game. I know of quite a few different sound engines for the SNES, simply based on Square's games. This pops up over at RHDN from time to time. And they weren't compatible with anything else.

    What was my original reply to?

  12. #162
    WCPO Agent EPSYLON EAGLE's Avatar
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    Ho people why lost your time, instrumental like Sega Genesis music in 1991



    versus Amiga



    I prefers Genny version so far

  13. #163
    WCPO Agent EPSYLON EAGLE's Avatar
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    And Phelios fantastic instrumental like sound track released earlier in Genesis




  14. #164
    Antiquing Hedgehog Lord QuickSciFi's Avatar
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    NecroBUMP!!!

    I don't see the need to start a whole new thread about the exact same thing, so I'll post it here:

    Is the SNES sound muffled to your ears? Not just compared to the Genesis, but to many other systems as well. I've been going back and forth between the Genesis and the SNES. Even after years of listening to tracks from both systems on Youtube (not the best source to truly get an idea as to what a system will really sound like on your TV or other source), I have only recently been able to play SNES games at my leisure. But, is it me, or does the SNES sound very VERY muffled. Heck, even compared to the NES.

    It first dawned on me with Killer Instinct. I love the soundtrack for this game. I remember it since its inception in the arcades. That intro is pure gold. But coming from its counterpart on the Xbox One's Rare Replay version, I gotta say I was really disappointed to have to turn the volume up so much so that I could appreciate it somewhat on the SNES.

    I thought it was probably a bad port or something, so I decided to go with a game I knew I remember being very mesmerized with: Super Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back. I ended up trying out all three Super Star Wars games. Where once I was amazed at the CD-like quality of the soundtrack on the SNES, now it started to sound muffled as well. But I'll get back to this in a moment, as it turned out to be the loudest and best sound I managed to get out of my SNES.

    Then came Super Mario World. I thought to myself, I really have to try a first party title. Maybe it had to be something with 3rd party titles overall. So as soon as I turn this bad boy on, I was utterly disappointed at how low and muffled the music for Super Mario World sounded. Even lower than the NES original Super Mario Bros. And even than Super Mario Bros. 3 as well (both of which I was playing at the same time; tuning in and out of the TV input to get an idea).

    But what really disappointed me the most was Mortal Kombat II on the SNES. Just WTF have people been talking about all these years? The music is horrendous where present. And I emphasize the word "present" because it is abysmally absent on the intro. WTF!?Don't even get me started about the speed and hit detection either; but that's another topic for another thread. The thing is, MKII is my favorite fighting game of all time. And having heard so many great things about the SNES port (mainly "music", "sound effects" and "graphics"), I'm going to have to call BULLSHIT on all accounts. Heck, sure, the sound effects and voices feel less "canned". And the graphics are somewhat better in some aspects (but definitely not all). And I'm not sure if the craptastic speed and hit detection has anything to do with framerate issues (or obvious lack of blast processing ), but I could not help but understand now after so many years why MKII has gotten so much flak from Nintendo fanboys. The game plays abysmally on the SNES!.

    Anyways, the soundtracks for so many SNES exclusives are indeed great. But what I'm getting at is how muffled the system overall sounds (compared not just to the Genesis, but to the NES as well).

  15. #165
    Raging in the Streets goldenband's Avatar
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    As I understand it, the SNES uses a digital process (interpolation) on its audio output that helps to conceal noise (aliasing and compression artifacts) caused by the low sample quality and/or heavy compression used for its sounds. That interpolation has the same effect as a low-pass filter, which blocks higher frequencies and lets through lower frequencies -- pretty much the definition of muffling.

    (There may also be a low-pass filter on the SNES mainboard, but my understanding is that most of the muffling comes from the interpolation process.)

    That said, I think it was much less of an issue back in the days when most people (at least in the US) were using TV speakers and even RF. Over a modern stereo system, it's more noticeable.

    It's interesting to compare the SNES audio strategy with the N64's anti-aliasing/filtering. In both cases, they used a tactic that sacrificed clarity in favor of a more polished appearance (at least superficially, or to casual observers) where the "seams" weren't evident. There's a good case to be made that it was the wrong approach, but it does seem like a consciously chosen one.

    BTW to be clear, every digital audio system needs a low-pass filter at both the input and output stages -- it's just a question of how high you set it. Without it, CDs (for example) would sound like horrific alien landscapes, with high frequencies folding back into the audible domain.

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