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Thread: Dreamcast (and Naomi) VS Model 3 board

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    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    Default Dreamcast (and Naomi) VS Model 3 board

    I think this is the best place to ask this because i can't find many discussions about it. I would like to learn about the differences between the machines. I know that Naomi is essentially a DC with added RAM so i suppose there is no other difference in power. But what about Model 3? I know it was the most powerful thing in its time (when i saw Sega Rally 2 in 1998 my eyes popped out of their sockets) and probably the most expensive board... Naomi/DC is cheaper but its also more recent technology so can it really compete against Model 3? Judging by a few DC ports of Model 3 games to DC (Sega Rally 2) i would say no, but people suggest that these ports were rushed and that DC could normally handle it just fine. Any thoughts?

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    Do you have TP??? Raging in the Streets Cornholio857's Avatar
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    Model 3
    Main CPU : 32bits RISC PowerPC 603ev 166Mhz
    Graphics Chip : 2 x Lockheed Martin Real3D/PRO-1000
    Sound CPU : 16bits 68EC000 11.3Mhz
    Sound chip : Yamaha SCSP/YMF-292F/"LAKE" FH1 128-step DSP x 2, MIDI interface, 16 bits 64 voices 4 channel, maximum of 16.5 Mbytes ROM, 64 PCM channels
    Audio RAM : 1meg (8 megabits, 512K per SCSP chip)
    Main Memory : 8 Mbytes 66mhz Ram, graphic ROM maximum of 64 Mbytes, backup RAM 64 Kbytes
    Video resolution : 24KHz 496(H)x384(V) one or two plane 24khz, It uses the VGA pinout however. And, the voltage levels of the video output is at VGA levels (.7vdc Peak to Peak)
    Scroll Window : two plane (24KHz/two plane mode), 16 colours/32,768 1024 palette x 2 bank, 256/32,768 64 palette x 2 bank
    Geometrizer : At least 1,000,100 polygons/s for square polys, 2,000,200 for Triangle polys
    Renderer : At least 60,000,000 pixels/s
    Video : Full Color Texture Mapping, Tri-Linear Interpolation, Micro Texture, Shading High-Specula Gouraud Shading , Fix Shading, Flat Shading, Texture & Edge Multi Layered Anti-Allasing, Lighting Effects, Parallel Light, 4 Spot Light, Pin Spot Light, Special Effect Zoning-Fog, 32 Levels of Translucency.
    Board composition : CPU + VIDEO + ROM boards
    Others : 10mbs Connection, calendar IC
    NAOMI
    The NAOMI (New Arcade Operation Machine Idea) is also Japanese for beauty above all else.
    CPU : Hitachi SH-4 32-bit RISC CPU (200 MHz 360 MIPS / 1.4 GFLOPS)
    Graphic Engine : PowerVR 2 (PVR2DC)
    Sound Engine : ARM7 Yamaha AICA 45 MHZ (with internal 32-bit RISC CPU, 64 channel ADPCM)
    Main Ram : 32 megs
    Main Memory : 32 MByte
    Graphic Memory : 16 MByte
    Sound Memory : 8 MByte
    Media : ROM Board (maximum size of 172MBytes) / GD-Rom
    Simultaneous Number of Colors : Approx. 16,770,000 (24bits)
    Polygons : 2.5 Million polys/sec
    Rendering Speed : 500 M pixel/sec
    Additional Features : Bump Mapping, Fog, Alpha-Bending (transparency), Mip Mapping (polygon-texture auto switch), Tri-Linear Filtering, Anti-Aliasing, Environment Mapping, and Specular Effect.
    All specs I found at www.system16.com. Judging by the specs above the NAOMI hardware is slightly better. I also remember BITD magazines speculating how many Model 3 games would be ported to the DC.

    Side note: I still find Model 3 games amazing. Especially Sega Super GT/SCUD Racing.

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    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Oh dear goodness I really wish Super GT had made it home, I need to remember to play it on the Model 3 emulator.

    As to the Model 3 to Naomi conversation. The first thing we need to remember is that Model 3 is God, m'kay. Then I think it is safe to say that Naomi/Dreamcast is a nice cheap solution to get Model 3 quality games at home. I think what few Mode 3 to Naomi ports there were turned out exceptionally well, though I think Sega Rally 2 was hamstrung by WinCE. Actually, a lot of Dreamcast games were bottlenecked by WinCE or the Playstation 1 source material.

    As for which is better, I'd compare Ferrari 355 Challenge and Test Drive LeMans to Scud Race/Super GT and Daytona 2, or Dead or Alive with Virtua Fighter 3.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Do you have TP??? Raging in the Streets Cornholio857's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Oh dear goodness I really wish Super GT had made it home, I need to remember to play it on the Model 3 emulator.
    It did.......kind of.


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    Bite my shiny, metal ***! Hero of Algol retrospiel's Avatar
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    Completely different architecture. NAOMI/Dreamcast was more powerful though.
    The Mega Drive was far inferior to the NES in terms of diffusion rate and sales in the Japanese market, though there were ardent Sega users. But in the US and Europe, we knew Sega could challenge Nintendo. We aimed at dominating those markets, hiring experienced staff for our overseas department in Japan, and revitalising Sega of America and the ailing Virgin group in Europe.

    Then we set about developing killer games.

    - Hayao Nakayama, Mega Drive Collected Works (p. 17)

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    WCPO Agent parallaxscroll's Avatar
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    Bumping this thread even though it's over 4 years old.



    There might be another article in a different issue of NG with another report or quote along the same lines -- Where Sega AM said NAOMI is not as good as Model 3, in certain aspects.
    I believe there are always trade-offs between completely different architectures in many cases including this one. On the other hand, there was another quote from Yu Suzuki about his team getting 3.5 million polys/sec out of NAOMI, something they had yet to see from the Model 3 board.

    Official Sega Saturn Magazine:

    http://i.imgur.com/gCWhGcM.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/TfxVfxU.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/Pqwwkhx.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/odXTUua.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/w2tnNnR.jpg





    Also, from a French magazine interview with Yu Suzuki via ShenmueDojo forums



    http://www.shenmuedojo.net/forum/vie...46957&start=30

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    NA@MI is not more powerful than Model 3 Step 2 in a couple of key area's . Model 3 step 2 can display over a million polygons at 60 fps with all effect on and also Model 3 has the advantage of faster ROM .

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    Master of Shinobi Soulis's Avatar
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    As far as polygons are concerned, i don't know what's under the hood but by looking at some games, it seems like Model 3 pushes more. Games like SCUD Race have such elaborate background geometry detail, there isn't any racing game on Naomi that comes close.

    Ever since i made this thread, there have been some advancements on Model 3 and Naomi emulation. Naomi on Demul is almost perfect and a few games on Supermodel are almost there (SCUD looks great). So now we can do better comparisons and from what i have seen so far, i'd say Model 3 falls somewhere between Naomi and Naomi 2 it terms of power.
    Last edited by Soulis; 05-23-2016 at 02:33 PM.

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    WCPO Agent parallaxscroll's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting that, what issue of EDGE is that from ?

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parallaxscroll View Post
    Thanks for posting that, what issue of EDGE is that from ?
    It was from the free EDGE Dreamcast supplement given away with EDGE issue#67
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    WCPO Agent parallaxscroll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    It was from the free EDGE Dreamcast supplement given away with EDGE issue#67
    Ahh, okay, I could not find that online anywhere. Would you mind showing the rest of the Hideki Sato interview?

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    Nameless One SonicTheHedgehog's Avatar
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    Dreamcast vs Model 3 was very even graphically but Model 3 step 2.0 was definitely superior to Dreamcast for the most part. In my opinion there is nothing on Dreamcast that looks as good as Daytona USA 2.

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    WCPO Agent parallaxscroll's Avatar
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    I agree with that ^

    IIRC, Model 3 Step 2.0 / 2.1 had a significantly higher pixel fill rate than Step 1.0 / 1.5

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    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    To me, SEGA's Model series was the arcade hardware version of today's Unreal Engine. Scud Racer still blows my mind. Yes, this is off an EMU but regardless impresses me more seeing how it cleans up so well. Most 3D games of this era don't clean up that well. SEGA was really innovative back then.



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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Has anyone tried researching the exact reason why SCUD Race wasn't released on Dreamcast?
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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