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Thread: Paprium: Official Thread

  1. #9721
    Tiido's apprentice Road Rasher TulioAdriano's Avatar
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    Even an one-man team can produce something wonderful, but it can take ages to get things off the ground and reach a professional studio-like polishing level. Imagine that Pier Solar with the team we had was quite stressful at the end of the 6th year. There are some members of the team that still haven't played the game to this date. So to think a single person or tiny team could endure much more than that is quite a tall ask.

    I can only imagine how much Fonzie wants to be just done with Project Y and then just move on to something else in his life. I honestly hope he does well whatever path he takes, he has a lot of talent and he's very dedicated and hard-working, so he deserves to see the payoff of all his effort. I wish his personality wouldn't get in the way of accomplishing greater things in game production. Like most of us, Fonzie has a passion for SEGA and for most time during Pier Solar dev he was sure that SEGA would come to us and make an offer to officially license the game. He even wrote to me on his letter of resignation that he was keeping 1/3 of the company shares for the event when SEGA decides to buy WaterMelon. I think that this kind of delusion still plays on his mind that one day SEGA will recognize his genius, and make all work by WM official and somehow make him a millionaire in the process. Even Yuji Naka tweeted Paprium's game trailer, and that probably rang high on his hopes.

    I'm sure something like that could actually have been possible, and even having a game being included in the MD Mini, who knows? Unfortunately at the state of things, SEGA would probably believe that associating with WM would be bad press, or in the least, a bad business move that wouldn't be approved by their board of directors. We all know the community would get very excited if they recognized the works done by the fanbase, and that could open a door for many other projects to see the recognition they deserve, but looking from the business point of view, I don't see how SEGA would ever approach WM at the current state of affairs.

    Anyway, I want this game to be released already. Want this drama to be over, and all the energy we spend in outrage to be put to better use and hopefully build something amazing again.

    To remember Tim333's legacy: "End the misery - Deliver the parcel!"

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  2. #9722
    Training-in-Hedgehog Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert tokay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA-Jorge View Post
    I think his comment makes sense, I just don't think it it's being taken in context. I can certainly see the concern some retro games have when it comes to Homebrew, and retro gaming as a whole. New games for a 30 year old console are generally priced higher than new games for current consoles, and that is a hard expense to justify.

    I don't think you need to buy and play BOBC to surmise that it's rather lacking. That being said, it never claimed to be a full sized game. There's lots of smaller Homebrew making its way to the Genesis, and some of the prices tend to be higher, and frankly, they shouldn't be. They are demos, smallish games, and tech demos. I'm fine with paying full price for games that are full games, but they need to be bringing really good gameplay, aesthetics, and sound.

    But I also think that Papi Commando was kinda a legit, full game. Just smaller. What I like about that approach is that it places the focus on gameplay and fun mechanics.

    I'd be 100% fine with Homebrew games that were small, but polished, like Flicky, or Outrun.
    I agree with you that BOBC SE is not a AAA game, and that's it's perfectly fine. Shall everyone aim at PAPRIUM (supposed) quality? Be my guest and let's talk again in 10 years if you're still there.
    Also, BOBC SE was not sold at full price (compare its price to Tanglewood and Xenocrisis for instance, not dissing here).
    Papi Commando was quite cheap actually, considering its content and packaging ($50 incl. shipping if I recall properly).

    My point was more to ask for explanation regarding the very specific word "buggy".
    Having contributed to this game, I was wondering what exact bug(s) could be remaining... Then the guy tells he did not even play the game!
    This is quite disappointing.


    [edit] Yeah, let's end this misery :-)

  3. #9723
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher nihilblack's Avatar
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    I think that he was referring to Papi Commando with that buggy thing, but I don't know.

    Anyway, Vetea shouldn't take it as a personal attack or take important decissions based on one guy's opinion. Just keep doing what you like to do.

  4. #9724
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    Quote Originally Posted by TulioAdriano View Post
    I'm ahead of you. Won't be using that name though.
    Can you please team up with Sik and have BigEvil publish it? That'd be a dream team!

  5. #9725
    Tiido's apprentice Road Rasher TulioAdriano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyteknohed View Post
    Can you please team up with Sik and have BigEvil publish it? That'd be a dream team!
    It's possible. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

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  6. #9726
    Toejam is a wiener. Master of Shinobi SEGA-Jorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokay View Post
    I agree with you that BOBC SE is not a AAA game, and that's it's perfectly fine. Shall everyone aim at PAPRIUM (supposed) quality? Be my guest and let's talk again in 10 years if you're still there.
    Also, BOBC SE was not sold at full price (compare its price to Tanglewood and Xenocrisis for instance, not dissing here).
    Papi Commando was quite cheap actually, considering its content and packaging ($50 incl. shipping if I recall properly).

    My point was more to ask for explanation regarding the very specific word "buggy".
    Having contributed to this game, I was wondering what exact bug(s) could be remaining... Then the guy tells he did not even play the game!
    This is quite disappointing.


    [edit] Yeah, let's end this misery :-)
    None of the homebrew games need to be AAA games, but what the hell is a AAA game on the Genesis now anyway? No one is asking for AAA games, we asking for Genesis games that are complete experiences, regardless of the size/scope. WM chose to go big, and they should make sure that before they take on a task like that, that their tech and art is in a place that can handle that sort of game. People always talk about how it will take 5-10 years to make a Genesis game with a small team, but all these games we love, were made with small teams, on nearly non-existent budgets, with none of the tech, knowledge, and 20+ years of knowhow that exist now.

    Altered beast was made in less than a year with a team of less than 8 people. Shining in the Darkness was made in less than a year with a team of 4 people, on a freaking small budget. I'm not saying that current teams need to work harder, or work faster, I'm saying, take on realistic projects, with realistic, achievable scopes of work.

    And then, make sure they are priced at a competitive value. $50-$65 works, but the games need to be on par with the stuff already on the console. Honestly, Tanglewood, Papi Commando, Tanzer, and Xeno Crisis (there are others as well, these are the ones that I could name off the top of my head...) are the only games approaching this retro gaming dev right.

  7. #9727
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher nihilblack's Avatar
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    Yep. One of the games I like the most on the SNES, Wild Guns, was fully made (from planning to the finished game) in 5 months by just three guys (with help from another two).

    http://shmuplations.com/wildguns/

  8. #9728
    Training-in-Hedgehog Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert tokay's Avatar
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    Teams were small indeed, but devs were making games as their day jobs.
    I clearly don't know the situation of everyone in the homebrew scene, but know for sure that some work on their games in the evening after a long day of work.
    I doubt that tools available nowadays can fully counterbalance this matter of fact.

  9. #9729
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    Quote Originally Posted by nihilblack View Post
    Yep. One of the games I like the most on the SNES, Wild Guns, was fully made (from planning to the finished game) in 5 months by just three guys (with help from another two).

    http://shmuplations.com/wildguns/


    The problem with WM has been concerning the Genesis games like paprium non existent work plan.

    The only game that was correctly planned and completed was pier solar hd by tulio. I remember completing the 3 min HD opening animation which was pretty complex within only 3 months. This allowed it to be used in the game trailer for the 2014 e3.

    Another example were the fmv and pixel assets on Vixen 357 that I started and completed between 2013 and 2015 and even a trailer (way before paprium trailer). Nothing was ever done with all this work, otherwise the game would have been out since 2016.

    Another example with extremely complex pixel art (much more than paprium or any other indie md games) was the creation of the intro of the neo geo game Kraut Buster for which I produced the boards, concepts and pixelart within 3 months. This pixel art was then worked on by 2 other people and finalized within 2 months.

    So in the end, it's just a matter of ability, seriousness and nothing else.
    Last edited by Arm; 08-01-2019 at 05:05 PM.

  10. #9730
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher nihilblack's Avatar
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    I wish we could see your work on Vixen 357 some day. You always do an amazing work, so I hope you get to work in more MD projects!

  11. #9731
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    Thanks! The artwork of vixen main character was in stika's documentary. Actually you might have seen more of my work if you played Tanglewood as I handled the characters animation. Who knows what the future holds?
    Last edited by Arm; 08-01-2019 at 02:23 PM.

  12. #9732
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-Training kentosama's Avatar
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    Hello, I allow myself to react.

    I think that hoping that small amateurs teams make pro games as in 1990 is demand a lot. It should be noted that many developers do not have much experience and we usually learn on the fly.

    If I take my case, I had never developed on a retro console and I did not know very well the Mega Drive. It's wonderful to create a game and learn to develop on this console, but obviously we can't get out a big games in short time.

    Nevertheless, I am relatively happy when people are convinced that IRENA is a game released in the time. It shows that by working hard everything is possible.

    The problem is that a physically produced game costs money and is usually small productions. So, if you like to be able to play new games on Mega Drive in 2019, never forget that behind people are working on their free time and that it's important to support them even if the games price may seem too high. A game on PlayStation 4 or Switch are sold in millions, a Mega Drive game certainly between 1000 and 5000 copies....

  13. #9733
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    I mean, there's a reason why these old consoles were abandoned in the first place.

    On the other hand, we're at the point where modern AAA games are sold for less than these cartridges, and if we want to play smaller games we can always use an emulator… so yeah, I'm afraid expectations are that if you're gonna charge that money, then the game's polish better match the price tag (at least on the same level as commercial releases back then).

    We could probably try to sell standalone cartridges, but people are nitpicky and demand box with color manual (despite that most manuals used to be monochrome…) and extra goodies. Also, pixel-level recreations of the Sega logo and boxart design of a specific region during a specific era or go away. I'm surprised they aren't demanding that the cartridge be sold through a local store, but that's probably because nearly all of them went bust :​O)

    The alternative is to sell ROMs and rely on the honor system (it's not like you're all going to sell much anyway). But developers hate that as well and are also obsessed that some Alibaba guy will slap it on a cartridge and sell it for $8.


    And the final obvious alternative is, of course, to just stop pretending we can make money off this and treat it as a free hobby :​O) Most people who really care about using real hardware and aren't doing it to fill up a shelf are going to be using a Mega Everdrive or Mega SD instead.

  14. #9734
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    Quote Originally Posted by kentosama View Post
    Hello, I allow myself to react.

    I think that hoping that small amateurs teams make pro games as in 1990 is demand a lot. It should be noted that many developers do not have much experience and we usually learn on the fly.

    If I take my case, I had never developed on a retro console and I did not know very well the Mega Drive. It's wonderful to create a game and learn to develop on this console, but obviously we can't get out a big games in short time.

    Nevertheless, I am relatively happy when people are convinced that IRENA is a game released in the time. It shows that by working hard everything is possible.

    The problem is that a physically produced game costs money and is usually small productions. So, if you like to be able to play new games on Mega Drive in 2019, never forget that behind people are working on their free time and that it's important to support them even if the games price may seem too high. A game on PlayStation 4 or Switch are sold in millions, a Mega Drive game certainly between 1000 and 5000 copies....
    WM wasn't considered a small homebrew team after 2012. It had a successful KS with more than 200k funds and also several games in dev with amongst them 2 licensed games, experience in material production and the rights to publish on Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft systems.

  15. #9735
    Tiido's apprentice Road Rasher TulioAdriano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kentosama View Post
    A game on PlayStation 4 or Switch are sold in millions, a Mega Drive game certainly between 1000 and 5000 copies....
    I just wanted to add that, while that's true for many games, it's far from the reality that most independent developers meet after years of hard work, finally releasing their game in a modern platform. Sure there are very successful ones, but the vast majority of independent developers tend to disappear after disappointing sales. There are a lot of moving parts in getting your game to the right players and breaking through, and unfortunately, there are amazingly talented developers out there that never see the success they deserve because they lack the other abilities on the game business.

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