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Thread: Paprium: Official Thread

  1. #10846
    Hero of Algol
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    This reminds me of people I've met who tell me they are "working on a book" but after several years they have nothing to show for it, not even an article. If it takes you 8 years to finish something, usually people call you "doctor" at the end.
    It sucks.

    Luis is probably massively frustrated with all this; being vocal about the project attracted a lot of negativity towards him.
    People probably ask him about it on twitter on a regular basis.

    I don't like his current stance on the matter (especially from a community/customer point of view), but I can see the last years, especially since the "release party", taking a toll on him.
    If it was my work in the game and Fonzie promoted a release party and showed up with the game in that state I'd mad.

    I don't rationally comprehend why he keeps being part of it, but I'd like to assume it doesn't have any logical reasoning behind it; maybe he only kept going due to how much he had already dedicated to it and it snowballed at some point.
    He probably would like to sway public perception on the project in a positive way (for personal relief), but I just think he ultimately doesn't have the tools to do so.

    For someone with a long career in the industry, to swallow so much bullshit it has to be something very personal to him.
    It really sucks that Fonzie has total control of the situation. It's bad for everyone.
    I hope nobody ever funds Fonzie's projects again and I hope people like Luis realize it's way too dangerous, toxic and harmful to work with someone as Fonzie, even if the project sounds super damn cool and you intend to isolate yourself from any negative perspective on the situation.

    I see everybody losing something even if the game ends up being released at some point. Community took most of the burden IMO but whoever worked with him will come out at loss as well.
    Fonzie doesn't communicate and much less owns his bullshit, so the negativity snowballs and harms a lot more people.

    I honestly don't see a path where most people will get their money/ordered items back; but I really want to be wrong about this.
    At the very least, I think people should be more careful and picky about what kind of people they boost with money.
    We made a very bad choice in this case here.

  2. #10847
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingOutrunner Stifu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    I don't rationally comprehend why he keeps being part of it, but I'd like to assume it doesn't have any logical reasoning behind it; maybe he only kept going due to how much he had already dedicated to it and it snowballed at some point.
    Yep, sunk cost fallacy. He thinks it's so close to release, he can't give up now. It's presumably been so close to completion for a couple of years, but every year, it feels closer than the previous one. I can understand the feeling, but hyping the game online won't make the game come any sooner.

  3. #10848
    WCPO Agent Mad Moham's Avatar
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    Barone has hit the nail on the head, Luis seems to believe that if he just keeps the bullshit going for a little longer then it will have been worth it in the end, but at this stage the game's development has taken so long that it won't matter when/if Paprium is released.

    Now I've also mentioned this before, but will people with money tied up in the project talk to each other and collectively bring legal action against WM before you all lose the chance?

  4. #10849
    Underground Sega Nut BonusKun's Avatar
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    Megadrive

    I've pretty much kept my nose out of this thread all this time. People are pissed off and rightly so. I mean all things considered they delivered with Pier Solar and then this shit-storm happened. I have gotten multiple emails of reported posts in this thread & reading thru all of it, I think these complaints are justified.

    I don't know Fonzie so i can't judge the man. All I know is I enjoyed Pier Solar so i was looking forward to whatever their next project was. It's a shame it's ended up like this but I'm thinking maybe they bit off more then they could chew this time around. Just for now unless it's something god damn extreme, don't bother me with pointless reported posts.
    05/05/15

  5. #10850
    Toejam is a wiener. Master of Shinobi SEGA-Jorge's Avatar
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    Well, at this point, I think it's wiser for Luis to simply pull out of the project, or be real about where the project is, and what has been going on. He's hurting his reputation in the retro gaming community by going on like this. He's doing art for other Genesis games, and at what point does the negativity of this project start affecting his ability to work on other titles? He's sort of the face of the ongoing existence/non-existence of Paprium, whether he likes to believe that or not. He tweets and posts about the game, and as such, is receiving the largest amount of bad responses pertaining to it. I worry that at some point, people start just avoiding anything he's a part of, at least in the Genesis/Megadrive community, as a result of this experience. Worse, what happens if this does blow up? What happens if a game journalist gets all this information, and the only people they can tie to this project, one that has basically robbed entire communities across multiple retro consoles of lots of investment money, are Fonzie, whom no one can really track down, and Luis, a Senior Lighting Artist at Ubisoft Montreal? This is a bad look on him, and regardless of how much he has invested in this, he's better off letting Fonzie clean up his own messes. Paprium is not worth putting his reputation on the line.

  6. #10851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    .. with a release date measured in months, but can now be measured in console generations..
    The best comment ever!

  7. #10852
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    Paprium's delays have spanned the cancellation, AND revival of the Necco Wafer.
    Greatest candy ever.

  8. #10853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stifu View Post
    Yep, sunk cost fallacy. He thinks it's so close to release, he can't give up now. It's presumably been so close to completion for a couple of years, but every year, it feels closer than the previous one. I can understand the feeling, but hyping the game online won't make the game come any sooner.
    Thanks for the link. I really had never heard about this concept but it fits like a glove.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Moham View Post
    Barone has hit the nail on the head, Luis seems to believe that if he just keeps the bullshit going for a little longer then it will have been worth it in the end, but at this stage the game's development has taken so long that it won't matter when/if Paprium is released.
    It's also easy to build a distorted perception of time when you have a full time job and several other additional projects.

    I doubt Luis is crossing out each day of Paprium's delay in his calendar. He has other things to take care of.
    From time to time someone mentions him on social media asking for news and that's when he's reminded of it, gives a standard response and moves on.
    That's part of the problem and part of the criticism in my view.

    At some point you end up with almost two full console generations of delay and then it's too late to turn things around.

    Fonzie's incompetence can't be overstated, even if you try really hard.
    Both Tanglewood and Xeno Crisis crowdfunded projects managed to assemble far more specialized and professional teams with far less money.
    They also have released their games to multiple platforms in much shorter time.
    And those were their debut games on the Mega Drive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Moham View Post
    Now I've also mentioned this before, but will people with money tied up in the project talk to each other and collectively bring legal action against WM before you all lose the chance?
    Have you watched the Fyre documentary on Netflix?

    Fonzie's "saving grace" is that he rarely puts his face out there. A second face-to-face contact with investors, right after the release party could have been a lot more detrimental to him than the first one. People really didn't have the time to process the weirdness of the situation and form an opinion of what they had just seen.
    With a little bit of luck, you really need to push the envelope on a regular basis for people to seek legal action against you related to a retro game.

    WM also financed the game using their own infrastructure for crowdfunding. There's no kickstarter to cry to.
    The pre-order stunt was a bit different, but, then again, through their own storefront. The promo video was all about the game, a muscular guy and heavy video editing.
    Last time Fonzie's face appeared in a promotional video was in a tea timer clip many years ago.
    We refer to him with a nick name. Most people who put money on it don't know his name, don't know/remember his face.

    I think the turmoil you recently saw in this thread may end up been the closest to accountability we'll ever get.


    Quote Originally Posted by SEGA-Jorge View Post
    Well, at this point, I think it's wiser for Luis to simply pull out of the project, or be real about where the project is, and what has been going on. He's hurting his reputation in the retro gaming community by going on like this. He's doing art for other Genesis games, and at what point does the negativity of this project start affecting his ability to work on other titles? He's sort of the face of the ongoing existence/non-existence of Paprium, whether he likes to believe that or not. He tweets and posts about the game, and as such, is receiving the largest amount of bad responses pertaining to it. I worry that at some point, people start just avoiding anything he's a part of, at least in the Genesis/Megadrive community, as a result of this experience. Worse, what happens if this does blow up? What happens if a game journalist gets all this information, and the only people they can tie to this project, one that has basically robbed entire communities across multiple retro consoles of lots of investment money, are Fonzie, whom no one can really track down, and Luis, a Senior Lighting Artist at Ubisoft Montreal? This is a bad look on him, and regardless of how much he has invested in this, he's better off letting Fonzie clean up his own messes. Paprium is not worth putting his reputation on the line.
    Luis seems committed to go until the end (game's release) with the "I don't feel responsible" approach and I think he will unless Fonzie completely breaks communication with him.
    Fonzie has communicated with him upon threats, according to Luis ("Sympatique...... il fait ca avec tout le monde qui etait en contact avec lui. ne reponds pas a ces mails a moins que tu lui fasse une menace. Quelle honte.") (which Google translates to: "Friendly ...... he does this to everyone who was in contact with him. Don't answer these emails unless you threaten him. What a shame.").

    Luis has changed his mood on the subject of Paprium news _from time_ to _time_, which indicates that every few months Fonzie responds to him and it's enough to keep him linked to the project.

    Somehow, we're also expected to flip-flop like this.
    Last edited by Barone; 08-09-2020 at 07:14 PM.

  9. #10854
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post

    Paprium has been "in developnent" the same amount of time as between the release of the Mega Drive in Europe and the release of the Dreamcast in Japan.
    Now that's something to think about, cartridges could be shipped on the 20th anniversary of SEGA giving up on hardware.

  10. #10855
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingOutrunner Stifu's Avatar
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    Nice summary, Baron. With his occasional positivity bursts, Luis acts as an enabler for Fonzie's bullshit.
    Was it Fonzie who asked Luis to hype Paprium, or just Luis acting on his own? I would guess the latter. It doesn't really matter, Luis would be responsible in both cases, no matter how much he repeats he has no responsibility in this. He doesn't seem to understand that trying to build hype with nothing but words, after all these years of delay after people paid for the game, is seen by many people as rubbing salt on the wound. Luis wants us to be more positive, less negative, but this project could only become that much of a fiasco thanks to people being too optimistic, too trusting.

  11. #10856
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    100% agreed with Barone's #10846 post

    As for the pocket money theft etc, welcome to the Wild Wild West!

    Seriously though, things do seem to be turning towards a more understanding approach towards Luis' situation*. Also we now seem to have some sort of collective hope that the game does indeed exist in a somewhat publishable form, something we were very far from some pages ago. Let's hope there will be some news of substance SOONer than later, sot that Stika can develop his documentary into a full blown series. Expecting Season 2 for Christmas.

    *: well, except for Stifu, who just literally said that the project sunk because we were too happy about its existence
    Lists of MD games: officially licensed (~925) @ cart sizes @ Top 5 @ Top 250 @ Sonic hacks @ best title screens @ Arcade ports (150) @ best European games

  12. #10857
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    I wouldn't say I'm as positive as chilled appears to be in their post.

    My thoughts are: something MAY exist but it's absolutely pointless talking about it as there is no evidence as to what form it exists in. All I can go on is that a couple of years ago we had a very buggy, limited promo and nothing since would suggest we have anything otherwise.

    As far as I'm concerned, Luis may be having the occasional positive update from Fonzie to keep him happy - hence the soon messages, but again we have no evidence of any correspondence.

    Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, Fonzie has ended up way out of his depth, spunked the money he had, MAY have spent time trying to complete the game on the quiet but, at best, has no way to publish it. He has adopted silence not to build suspense or hype, but because he has no clue how to get out of the hole he finds himself which is entirely of his making. He has taken the cowardly way out: rather than facing up to the issues and seeking support from the community he's run off.

    My position: some day a muted version of Paprium MAY be released online but probably several years away yet due to the heat that still exists. I am pretty confident we will never receive our physical copies. My confidence is based on the silence and lack of updates - it's the sign of someone running away from their problems and not tackling them which clearly doesn't bode well.

    I will be more than happy to be proven wrong but, if I ever am, I suspect my enthusiasm for the game will be limited.

  13. #10858
    WCPO Agent Mad Moham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Have you watched the Fyre documentary on Netflix?[/URL]
    The founder had to pay $25,000,000 and was given six years in prison, so now I'm pretty certain that legal action against WM is possible.
    If people chase Fonzie directly it might be hard, but if chasing a company then things get slightly easier because the company has a registered address, therefore giving debt collectors somewhere to go and repossess property. Also, one of my former colleagues was a debt collector before I knew him and he's told me some stories about how they find people and get money out of them, so believe me when I say that it won't be all that hard to get money from WM. What's needed though is for everyone to work together to get their money back, its no good having two or three people doing all the work while everyone else is apathetic to the whole situation.

  14. #10859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Moham View Post
    The founder had to pay $25,000,000 and was given six years in prison, so now I'm pretty certain that legal action against WM is possible.
    If people chase Fonzie directly it might be hard, but if chasing a company then things get slightly easier because the company has a registered address, therefore giving debt collectors somewhere to go and repossess property. Also, one of my former colleagues was a debt collector before I knew him and he's told me some stories about how they find people and get money out of them, so believe me when I say that it won't be all that hard to get money from WM. What's needed though is for everyone to work together to get their money back, its no good having two or three people doing all the work while everyone else is apathetic to the whole situation.
    Would this approach only work for the pre-orders? I'm completely clueless here but to me pre-orders offered a product that never materialised whereas gems payment was more like an investment and carried the risk associated with investments. Or could this approach wrap up everyone who has paid in some shape?

    It's an interesting idea as it might be the only way of holding Fonzie/WM to account. Just needs someone with the know how and enthusiasm to kick start it.

  15. #10860
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spendle View Post
    My thoughts are: something MAY exist but it's absolutely pointless talking about it as there is no evidence as to what form it exists in. All I can go on is that a couple of years ago we had a very buggy, limited promo and nothing since would suggest we have anything otherwise.
    Taking it further, it doesn't really matter if it exists (finished or not) if nobody else is going to be playing it anyway, it may as well not exist and the situation wouldn't change. It's like with those prototypes or rare games that are known to exist but are being hoarded by collectors so it ends up being the same thing as if they hadn't been preserved yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spendle View Post
    Would this approach only work for the pre-orders? I'm completely clueless here but to me pre-orders offered a product that never materialised whereas gems payment was more like an investment and carried the risk associated with investments. Or could this approach wrap up everyone who has paid in some shape?
    Probably anybody who has paid could hop on it, at the very least for false advertisement, if not for straight up fraud. Though those who got a refund probably can't hop on it, i.e. only those whose money is still gone can probably claim damages (maybe, the refunds were over it taking way too long that customers got fed up so that still may work as evidence?)

    That's my guess anyway, you'd need to ask a lawyer to get a proper answer.

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