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Thread: Mortal Kombat III

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor
    I have never, ever heard of KI being referred to as popularizing the concept of combos. That's pretty left-field, IMO. Virtually every mention-worthy fighting game features combos, that's long been a staple of the genre.

    And if any game "stepped up" combos, it's Samurai Shodown.
    Got a date on that? Now I'm interested in making a timeline about this. We'll have Melf edit the game's name appropriately in the review.
    I was never an arcade junky, we were more into home systems during that time period, so for us, the big combo thing didn't show up until '95 in KI. Hence why I tossed that in.

    Like I mentioned before we didnt even call them combo's until KI.

    I went back to playing SF Alpha II last night.... oh the fighting goodness...
    Mel (aka Tritium)
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  2. #17
    n.W.o 4 life Road Rasher StRiDA CoL's Avatar
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    Yeah Mel I gues u r right before in like SF2 and other games they were called "hits" which sounds more cheeseir than combo 6..

    WAIT A MINIUTE

    I m an idiot they were always called hits

  3. #18
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    Super Combos aren't the same as combos -- they're just super moves which charge up. Street Fighter II CREATED the combo system. This is a fact of arcade history. Everything that followed sprang from that game in the one on one fighting genre.

    What Super added were new characters, slower speed (yay :P), an extra or updated move for the original characters and text that told the player how many hits they got on a given combo. This was 1993, six months before Super Turbo and about a year before KI.

    KI's combos though were different from SFII's in that they were far more pre-programmed by button pressing. Obviously SF has the more subtle and nuanced gameplay as far as combos, IMO, as well as being the creator of the term and gameplay feature.
    Umm I just played the home conversion of super. it doesn't keep track of combo hits, thats what i've been trying to tell you.
    Um, I know for a fact it did. Both SNES and Genesis keep track of combos, as does their arcade big brother. If you didn't get that information onscreen, then it simply means you didn't pull off any combos.

  4. #19
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor
    I have never, ever heard of KI being referred to as popularizing the concept of combos. That's pretty left-field, IMO. Virtually every mention-worthy fighting game features combos, that's long been a staple of the genre.

    And if any game "stepped up" combos, it's Samurai Shodown.
    Got a date on that? Now I'm interested in making a timeline about this. We'll have Melf edit the game's name appropriately in the review.
    I was never an arcade junky, we were more into home systems during that time period, so for us, the big combo thing didn't show up until '95 in KI. Hence why I tossed that in.

    Like I mentioned before we didnt even call them combo's until KI
    You might not have, but everybody I knew did. And Super calls them combos in its onscreen tracker. And SSFII hit in 93.

  5. #20
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    we need screenshots.
    Mel (aka Tritium)
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    Super Combos aren't the same as combos -- they're just super moves which charge up. Street Fighter II CREATED the combo system. This is a fact of arcade history. Everything that followed sprang from that game in the one on one fighting genre.

    What Super added were new characters, slower speed (yay :P), an extra or updated move for the original characters and text that told the player how many hits they got on a given combo. This was 1993, six months before Super Turbo and about a year before KI.

    KI's combos though were different from SFII's in that they were far more pre-programmed by button pressing. Obviously SF has the more subtle and nuanced gameplay as far as combos, IMO, as well as being the creator of the term and gameplay feature.
    Umm I just played the home conversion of super. it doesn't keep track of combo hits, thats what i've been trying to tell you.
    Um, I know for a fact it did. Both SNES and Genesis keep track of combos, as does their arcade big brother. If you didn't get that information onscreen, then it simply means you didn't pull off any combos.
    I played it yesterday, I didnt see it in SSF2(Genesis). I dont have an snes so i wouldn't be able to vouch for that.
    I've been playing street fighter 2 for years, I can at least get a 3 hit combo. I did so on Alpha 2 plenty of times yesterday.

    The computer didn't get any combo's either, which is odd at higher difficulties.

    Screenshots, screenshots, screenshots. From my research, street fighter didnt have it until SSF2 turbo.
    Mel (aka Tritium)
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  7. #22
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    we need screenshots.
    I looked. Couldn't find any easily, other than a shot that had the "first attack" text.

    I just played the Genesis version though -- and got the combo message. The game doesn't give you a read-out of the computer's combos, only the human players.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    we need screenshots.
    I looked. Couldn't find any easily, other than a shot that had the "first attack" text.

    I just played the Genesis version though -- and got the combo message. The game doesn't give you a read-out of the computer's combos, only the human players.
    Hmm.. Ok, did some history checking. Actual combo's were in the original SF. But Im curious to see who called them combo's, counted them and gave extra points for them first. I suspect it was SSFII

    I'll rewrite that sentence later, but Im very interested in having an accurate history of it.

    --

    In other news, anyone know if the psone version of alpha 2 any good?

    ---

    Is the saturn version of MK trilogy any good?

    ---

    Anyone know Scorpion's fatality in UMK3 Genesis?

    ---

    Was killer instinct an snes exclusive?

    ---
    Mel (aka Tritium)
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  9. #24
    Master of Shinobi Drixxel's Avatar
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    So are we denying Killer Instinct any credit for helping to draw attention to combos? There were and are plenty of people out there whose SFII strategies are no more complex than buttonmashing it up with Blanka. These people make up a good part of the gamer majority. Just because the elite members of the fighter's guild have known about combos since the fateful 1991 release of Street Fighter II, that does not make the concept of "the combo" a popular one. Popularized among the hardcore gamers does not equate to popularized among the mainstream. In Killer Instinct, combos are flashy and an incredibly intentional aspect of the game. This is not necessarily so with SFII, and as such, not necessarily visible to the average gamer. Watch KI in attract mode for even 30 seconds and you'll see one or both of the computer fighters pull off a fancy combo.

  10. #25
    Master of Shinobi Drixxel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    In other news, anyone know if the psone version of alpha 2 any good?
    I dig it. I've always heard that the Saturn version is superior, but having only played and owned the PlayStation port and very much enjoyed it, I give'r my recommendation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Anyone know Scorpion's fatality in UMK3 Genesis?
    A move list from some random FAQ lists these two.

    (from jump distance): D, D, U+HK
    (when close): F, F, D, U+Run

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Was killer instinct an snes exclusive?
    There was also a Gameboy release, but ehh.. that one doesn't count. As I understand it, Killer Instinct didn't hit consoles again until the late 1996 release of Killer Instinct Gold for the ol' N64.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    So are we denying Killer Instinct any credit for helping to draw attention to combos? There were and are plenty of people out there whose SFII strategies are no more complex than buttonmashing it up with Blanka. These people make up a good part of the gamer majority. Just because the elite members of the fighter's guild have known about combos since the fateful 1991 release of Street Fighter II, that does not make the concept of "the combo" a popular one. Popularized among the hardcore gamers does not equate to popularized among the mainstream. In Killer Instinct, combos are flashy and an incredibly intentional aspect of the game. This is not necessarily so with SFII, and as such, not necessarily visible to the average gamer. Watch KI in attract mode for even 30 seconds and you'll see one or both of the computer fighters pull off a fancy combo.
    Yeah, KI made the whole combo thing into meat and potatoes. SF2, it was just another feature like fireballs. That was the essence of my argument.

    However, now the quest is to find the origins of these combos.
    Mel (aka Tritium)
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  12. #27
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Quote Originally Posted by 16bitter
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    we need screenshots.
    I looked. Couldn't find any easily, other than a shot that had the "first attack" text.

    I just played the Genesis version though -- and got the combo message. The game doesn't give you a read-out of the computer's combos, only the human players.
    Hmm.. Ok, did some history checking. Actual combo's were in the original SF.
    I've hardly played SF, but I've always heard of and remember combos making their appearance in SFII.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel

    --

    In other news, anyone know if the psone version of alpha 2 any good?

    ---
    I have Alpha 2 Gold, and I assume it's not much better animation-wise than the original Alpha 2 on PS. The Saturn version is a big improvement as far as animation, and one can tell within the PS game itself how much has been cut by the contrast of mirror matches versus any multi-character match. Even then I assume much is cut, but it is a contrast -- I've mostly played the arcade version of Alpha 2, though so my estimation of the home versions isn't that detailed as far as differences and strengths.


    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Anyone know Scorpion's fatality in UMK3 Genesis?
    http://www.angelfire.com/va3/mk/

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Was killer instinct an snes exclusive?

    ---
    Yes. KI Gold (I think that was the title), which was a modified build of KI2, was translated to N64 in 96.

  13. #28
    Banned by Administrators 16bitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    So are we denying Killer Instinct any credit for helping to draw attention to combos? There were and are plenty of people out there whose SFII strategies are no more complex than buttonmashing it up with Blanka. These people make up a good part of the gamer majority. Just because the elite members of the fighter's guild have known about combos since the fateful 1991 release of Street Fighter II, that does not make the concept of "the combo" a popular one. Popularized among the hardcore gamers does not equate to popularized among the mainstream. In Killer Instinct, combos are flashy and an incredibly intentional aspect of the game. This is not necessarily so with SFII, and as such, not necessarily visible to the average gamer. Watch KI in attract mode for even 30 seconds and you'll see one or both of the computer fighters pull off a fancy combo.
    Yeah, KI made the whole combo thing into meat and potatoes. SF2, it was just another feature like fireballs. That was the essence of my argument.
    I don't know if I buy that semantically. I think KI was flashier, but that SFII has far deeper gameplay as far as its combos and their effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    However, now the quest is to find the origins of these combos.
    As I've said, I always remember SFII as being the originator. But there should be a site somewhere to go more extensively into the history of combos in one on one fighting games. What I do know is that combos have been hugely popular since SFII, going back to the days of obsessive dronings on usenet and within EGM on the subject.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    So are we denying Killer Instinct any credit for helping to draw attention to combos? There were and are plenty of people out there whose SFII strategies are no more complex than buttonmashing it up with Blanka. These people make up a good part of the gamer majority.
    So is the argument that KI somehow deepened fighting game gameplay?

    As far as popularity, I do know that SFII truly popularized the combo by making it standard in fighting games as well as being a far bigger series from day one -- arguably the biggest and most influential in the genre ever -- than KI ever was. I think this leads back to the combo issue.

    The very word started being used due to SFII's gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    Just because the elite members of the fighter's guild have known about combos since the fateful 1991 release of Street Fighter II, that does not make the concept of "the combo" a popular one.
    The concept has to be popular by the virtue of it being the core of the most influential and popular fighting series created. Now whether people called them combos or not makes little difference as to who is responsible for creating the standard and popularizing the base idea of combos -- and that's Street Fighter II.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    Popularized among the hardcore gamers does not equate to popularized among the mainstream.
    Almost everybody was playing SFII back in the day. I don't recall anywhere near the attention being given KI, though it was very popular in its own right.

    Frankly, you guys surprise me on this one, as I remember clearly that all who were into the gaming scene (I wouldn't classify that broad generalization as hardcore) -- to decent enough extent to, you know, be aware of it and maybe pick up an issue of EGM between matches in the arcade -- were aware of combos as THE aspect to fighting game gameplay, which SFII popularized back in 91.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drixxel
    In Killer Instinct, combos are flashy and an incredibly intentional aspect of the game.
    Combos are very much intentional within SFII, though more subtle. KI changed the combo system by making it less about timing and more about pre-set button commands that led to over the top hit counts.

    I think in many ways that KI took the concept over the top and dumbed down the gameplay in the process. As most fighting junkies would argue in regards to Capcom's Versus series as well.

  15. #30
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor
    I have never, ever heard of KI being referred to as popularizing the concept of combos. That's pretty left-field, IMO. Virtually every mention-worthy fighting game features combos, that's long been a staple of the genre.

    And if any game "stepped up" combos, it's Samurai Shodown.
    Got a date on that? Now I'm interested in making a timeline about this. We'll have Melf edit the game's name appropriately in the review.
    1993. Samurai Shodown introduced the Rage/POW meter, which charges up with hits, and charges more with combos. So combos are actually a part of the gameplay strategy, beyond simply "doing more damage". It was the first game to really "do anything" with combos.


    I was never an arcade junky, we were more into home systems during that time period, so for us, the big combo thing didn't show up until '95 in KI. Hence why I tossed that in.

    Like I mentioned before we didnt even call them combo's until KI.
    Samurai Shodown was on several home systems.

    I never remember KI having much of an impact on anything, but then, I was more of an arcade gamer, and KI didn't have much of an arcade presence. I do remember when the home version came out, and regarded it as a passable fighter whose selling point was its visual effect.

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