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Thread: More Alternate Reality Stuff or Did the 32x Make Sense?

  1. #16
    Raging in the Streets A Black Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    So, what amount of games need to be made for a peripheral/add-on before it is worth it in your opinion?
    I think that the Sega CD and N64 Expansion Pak are worth it. They were not as successful as the companies may have wanted, and weren't big successes, but they do have good enough libraries to be worth it for sure, and they were supported for a decent length of time too. I have no opinion on Kinect because I've never used it.

  2. #17
    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    I get that you cannot imagine an add-on succeeding. I mean, in the US the mainstream media has this huge myth surrounding them that makes them seem even worse than politicians or hollywood. These views are completely disregarding the success of peripherals that were financially successful. I don't know the complete list of profitable peripherals and neither does anybody here. But...
    No, I'm pretty sure he can imagine that, but just not in this context . . . I mean, the most plausible premise for anyone releasing (another) large-scale add-on in 1994 and it being genuinely sensible, probably would have been Nintendo with the SNES, and even then only in the context of the N64's delays . . . and (arguably) the waste of resources that went into the Virtual boy. (an SNES add-on with that NEC RISC CPU in it might have been rather interesting)
    Edit: on second thought, NEC also would have had a big reason for an add-on too . . . perhaps scaling back the IRON MAN project (rehashed into PC-FX) as the final PCE add-on and a next-gen Duo to complement that for the short run. (too weak to challenge the PSX, but maybe buy time to develop a proper follow-on)

    In fact, the main reason I even bothered with this thread's premise is that Sega (Japan and/or America) seemed to be set on the idea of hardware "filler" of some sort. Whether that filler was actually more than that in the long run is another matter.


    Honestly, if the 32x (as it was) was the only option on the table, and my 2 alternatives were not allowed, then the best option would have been for SoA to drop the project in early 1994 (and compel SoJ to comply with that). Software support would have been the primary alternative there. -The fact that Virtua Racing SVP got released anyway in this scenario kind of nags at me though . . . if they were going to release it at all (with the manufacturing an dmarketing effort put into it), the relatively small added overhead to package it as a SVP "module" cart+VR game cart would seem like a much better idea.
    Last edited by kool kitty89; 01-26-2013 at 11:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

  3. #18
    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    I can't even begin to understand why someone would actually say that Sega should have released a full-scale Genesis addon in 1994, or a second major addon to the system period. 32X, Jupiter, it doesn't matter, either one would have been a horrendously bad idea. I mean, looking at the first post, I agree with kool_kitty89 for the most part in the analysis of the five reasons why Sega released the 32X, and why those were mistaken... but finishing the post with an even somewhat positive view of releasing the Jupiter instead of the 32X? What? That's just crazy, and would have been just as bad an idea as the 32X itself was. There's no way that releasing either one of them was a sane idea, for the reasons that you describe.
    I think you got my arguments, but unless I'm reading this wrong, you're calling Jupiter an add-on. Jupiter (as I'm using the term) would be an all-new console made specifically in the context of Sega of Japan's existing Saturn design work along with forming realistic international plans for Sega's next generation market competition.

    It's just a cart based Saturn (maybe with lo-RAM cut out) that can be upgraded to full Saturn spec later on. It would be a way for Sega to start the transition to the next gen early (on the software development and consumer fronts), while maintaining emphasis on (virtually) a single platform. Programming for the Jupiter would be basically identical to the Saturn, so a leg-up for western developers especially (and more time/resources going into proper documentation and tools early-on), while making a powerful platform that was still cheap enough to reach the mainstream market price range in late '94, and more so in '95.

    The Saturn design was basically complete by this point (should have been mostly an issue of final bug fixes on silicon and motherboard/case designs prepping for mass production), so that was going to be Sega's future.
    In that context (along with what Sega had to deal with on the market in January 1994), I think there's even a good argument for releasing the Jupiter over releasing no hardware at all until Saturn (which should be late 1995). They could keep the Genesis going in the low-end of the market while phasing it out (finishing up outstanding 1994 targeted projects, and tapering off after that -aiming at pushing lots of re-releases and such typical of late-gen support of an aging platform where profits margins are high, though volumes are low). New projects could get moved over to Jupiter (and multimedia projects for Saturn/JupiterCD) for 1995 release targets. (along with a few projects targeting the 1994 Jupiter/Saturn launch -would also mean a stronger launch lineup in Japan, with combined efforts rather than divided Saturn/32x -on top of MCD/MD/GG support)


    [quote[As for a stand-alone (lock-on) SVP addon, maybe they could have done that, but it depends on how many SVP games they were planning on releasing. If it was going to be just 3-6 games, then I think that going the Nintendo route and simply charging higher prices for the carts, SNES Super FX game-style, would have been the better path.[/quote]
    I say, pack it in with the release of Virtua Racing (and never release it standalone), push for documentation for 3rd party developer support, and adjust plans from there. (could be used for all sorts of late-gen games, not just polygon stuff -graphics or sound compression, 2D scaling/rotation/warping effects, sound mixing, etc -even without the added PCM channels suggested, mixing and streaming to the Z80 channel could offer some decent possibilities)
    At worst, they'd lose a little more on the added manufacturing costs of SVP+VR module bundle instead of standalone VR, but the risk-reward would seem very favorable here.

    If consumer interest was indicatively high, and developer interest was strong, then my other suggestion about shifting late-revision MD hardware to include SVP internally (and presumably add some sort of label on it) would also make more sense. This would include profitability, as a highly popular SVP could allow for generally cheaper to manufacture games (more compression -without tacking on hardware a la SNES).
    Doing this with the SNES wouldn't have really made sense, since they had way too many revisions and types of add-on hardware to make it sensible to integrate with the main system. (compare it to SMS and NES, with the SMS's sole add-on being the YM2413, and feasible to integrate as standard)
    There'd even be potential for cross-compatible games with features disabled on non-SVP systems. (like SMS games or some N64 games)

    Sure, it'd cost the customers more overall than buying a lockon and then several cheaper carts, but people are funny... they don't always go with the cheaper overall thing, but with the thing that has the lower initial price.
    Which is why I was suggesting the SAME initial price. Virtua Racing launched at an SRP of $99 in the US in March 1994. I'm suggesting Sega eat the small added cost of manufacturing 2 PCBs and 2 cart shells (maybe even a half-height game cart to save on cost/bulk and make it obvious).
    Don't even offer a standalone SVP module until it's established on the market . . . and if it fails to get established (on the 3rd party and consumer ends), then just phase it out to little added loss as standalone VR ended up as. (unlike the massive trade-offs involved with 32x)



    Another big point on my premise is that both designs proposed use hardware that was already complete and going to be released anyway. Engineering resources for the Jupiter should have been minimal, since it would be using the Saturn design. (more an issue with PCB and case design, as well as the CD module attachment -or at least provisions for that, if the actual CD module PCB/case-shell design was set to lower priority) The 32x OTOH, threw another new design into the mix that required distinct programming from any of those others, on top of greater overhead on the consumer end.

    If you try to think from a purely 1994 mindset, it's kind of hard to say which of those 2 would be more sensible, or even if focusing on MD/MCD software would be better.
    Either would allow Sega to (somewhat) better compete with certain technological advances seen on the game market, but one would help support their established 16-bit platform more (with SVP), while the other would better aid in the transition to the Saturn (with Jupiter). The 32x did neither of these very well, though it attempted to do both.

    In hindsight, it was the Saturn that really needed a boost to get settled into the market (outside Japan), while the MD (and MCD) probably would have been fine being left alone as far as the "16-bit" market itself was concerned. The Jupiter really could have helped here, and potentially without even taking as much away from the Genesis/CD as the 32x ended up doing (profit or developer/consumer wise). Marketing/distribution of Jupiter should have been similar cost-wise to 32x, while software development would have rolled together with Saturn programming/development . . . in fact, MD vs MCD software support was a bigger compromise than Saturn vs Jupiter game development differences. (MCD was a very different piece of hardware as a whole, Jupiter and Saturn differed only in media -and hybrid cart/cd games were possible too)

    It wasn't really until 1996 that prices dropped low enough for the 5th generation multimedia CD-ROM based consoles to fully enter the commodity mainstream price bracket, so that would have been 2 full years where the Jupiter would have been the only game on the block in its market segment. Plus, in 1996, it would have been able to undercut the only direct cart based competition with the N64's $200 price point.

    With Europe even more price sensitive than the US (on average), that could have an even larger bearing there.

    Also, I'm sure that people would have had much lower expectations for a cheap SVP lockon addon than they did with the 32X, but still... Sega's biggest mistake in '94 was assuming that another transition addon was needed, and that the 4th gen consoles as they were needed help (and addons). This was, of course, a flawed, and false, analysis, we now know. Nintendo's Donkey Kong Country ads showing off how this was possible on a regular cart, so why should you go buy that expensive addon (32X), were very effective... yes, the 32X sold well at first anyway, but on the whole, Nintendo very definitely won that argument, and for good reason. Sega should have realized that the Genesis as it was could have done fine for another year or two in the West, had they continued to support it as their main focus, and that no addon was needed. I can understand wanting more powerful hardware, but actually releasing anything beyond more SVP games would be a mistake.
    The Sega CD itself is another topic I want to address separately later . . . and that whole Atari thing above was way off topic too.

    I know that in Japan NEC got away with a few addons -- the CD drive and Super CD card/drives did well, after all -- but the Arcade Card and SuperGrafx didn't do quite as well, so they had a mixed record on addons, and of course that was all in Japan; there's never been a console addon in the West that succeeded like that. The N64 Expansion Pak and the Kinect are probably the two most successful ones here, but neither one of those was anywhere near the Super CD in success.
    Personally, I think history puts add-ons in a bad light in general . . . hell, looking at the Sega CD, it did far better than standalone CD "competition" in the early 90s. The problem there is that ALL CD based platforms has some major flaws (software, hardware, and/or market-wise), so it's an inherently bad example, at least outside Japan. (and it's arguable whether NEC might have actually become an exception in the west with the Duo, if not for their terrible prior management/marketing of the TG-16 compromising that potential -since the vertical integration and simpler hardware could have made it the cheapest and most marketable CD-ROM system available)

    The SuperGrafx wasn't even an add-on, but a new standalone console, and that was actually part of its problem. I have argued that it SHOULD have been an add-on instead . . . or, more specifically, that they should have waited and rolled the SGX hardware additions in with the introduction of the Super CD (and Duo) standard. Hudson engineers were forward thinking enough to put all the necessary expansion connectivity on the PC Engine to allow an external device to add the exact same functionality. It's ironic, but Sega forced a lot of hardware into the MCD and 32x in spite of the MD's limitations (and bottlenecks) while NEC had the opportunity to add lots of neat stuff relatively efficiently to the PC engine, yet they squandered it.

    Again, getting way off topic, but IMO, following up the (very basic) PCE CD-ROM^2 with a SuperGFX-CD upgrade should have been something like: use a replacement base-tray as the SGX add-on form factor, allowing existing CD owners a cheaper upgrade option (the DRAM in the CD was already inside that tray, so replacing the DRAM -instead of adding SRAM on card- would have been possible; 512kB of DRAM should have been very affordable at the time -TBH, 1 MB would have been realistic too given DRAM prices, especially for NEC -note that RAM prices didn't drop much from 1991-1994, so the arcade card's 2MB should have been considerably more costly in '94 than 1 MB in '91 . . . 512k would still be cheaper, obviously). With that DRAM, there'd also be little/no need for the 32k SRAM expansion, so just the 2nd VDP+64k VRAM (SRAM) would be it. (the PCE's interface also had a digital pixel output, so they could also have expanded the master palette . . . so potentially better than SNES color with a nice big master palette and 64 15 color subpalettes) -On a side note, with a good encoder using per-cell color optimization, that could make for some really nice looking FMV too . . . though compression would be an issue. (uncompressed and you get Night Trap or Sewer Shark sized video at 15 FPS, or bigger frames at low rates like Road Avenger/etc at 7.5 FPS -or a compromise)


    IMO, the best possible (and most consistent) use/need for add-ons has appeared with the advent of optical media: simple RAM expansion is something that could have been handled in a (mostly) foolproof and very cost-effective manner for modern consoles. RAM prices drop like crazy after most new systems are launched, and with decent marketing and module/expansion form-factor (and probably limited to only 1 RAM upgrade option), there's a huge potential gain for late-generation releases and a tiny addition to cost for the expansion to be built-in on later revisions.
    The N64's use of ROM cards deflated the advantages the 4 MB expansion provided, and the lack of standardization on the base hardware also deflated that. (the use of niche/costly RDRAM -even with SGI partner advantages- the PSX's commodity EDO DRAM main memory should have been much cheaper/simpler to add to . . . or the Saturn's SDRAM even -which the cart interface did not do, instead using cheap but quite slow DRAM, probably only marginally cheaper than Sega's SDRAM supply by 1997/98 given the commodity it has become on the PC market)
    It's quite ironic that all those modern consoles omitted support for that. (though HDD expansion is pretty common this gen)

    I ranted on this much more here:http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post551842
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

  4. #19
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    I think that the Sega CD and N64 Expansion Pak are worth it. They were not as successful as the companies may have wanted, and weren't big successes, but they do have good enough libraries to be worth it for sure, and they were supported for a decent length of time too. I have no opinion on Kinect because I've never used it.
    Okay, so basically you are saying that a peripheral or add-on shouldn't be made unless it is going to sell over 1 million units and be supported for at least two years while having more than 50 games made for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    Personally, I think history puts add-ons in a bad light in general . . .
    This gets to the root of what I am mulling over and over and over. I don't think that all of the facts add up in this assertion, and I know that it is journalistic interpretation/narrative that paints add-ons in such a bad light. We know that most add-ons were poorly managed, and that most hardware in general has engineering flaws. We also know that all add-ons captured the attention of developers and gamers, making them all historically significant to different degrees.
    Last edited by sheath; 01-27-2013 at 11:49 AM.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

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    Raging in the Streets A Black Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Okay, so basically you are saying that a peripheral or add-on shouldn't be made unless it is going to sell over 1 million units and be supported for at least two years while having more than 50 games made for it?
    I'd say that releasing one addon for a system is reasonable; a single addon almost certainly won't be as successful as the main console, but it can do okay for a couple of years, and hit those numbers you just mentioned there; see the Expansion Pak, Kinect, or Sega CD for example. However, releasing a SECOND addon is almost certainly a mistake. There's only one single time that a second addon actually succeeded, and even there, it only did so in one region, while bombing in the other it was released in (PCE/TG16 Super CD). Second addons don't work. And any Genesis addon in late '94 would have been the system's second addon.

    And also, the Saturn released in Japan at the same time the 32X did in the US. It's absolutely insane to launch a new addon for your older console at the same time that you launch a new system. That just makes no sense. The only way I could even begin to justify releasing a Genesis addon in 1994 is if the Saturn was cancelled, and Sega replaced it with some new, more powerful system that released in 1996. And even then, I think that they'd have been much better off sticking with the hardware they had, and not releasing a new addon. Maybe an SVP lockon cart, but that's it... but again, I'd tend towards thinking that the SNES model of "just put the chips in each cart" might have been more popular with consumers than Sega's "we need an addon to save them money overall, if they buy a bunch of the games that use this" approach...

    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    Honestly, if the 32x (as it was) was the only option on the table, and my 2 alternatives were not allowed, then the best option would have been for SoA to drop the project in early 1994 (and compel SoJ to comply with that). Software support would have been the primary alternative there. -The fact that Virtua Racing SVP got released anyway in this scenario kind of nags at me though . . . if they were going to release it at all (with the manufacturing an dmarketing effort put into it), the relatively small added overhead to package it as a SVP "module" cart+VR game cart would seem like a much better idea.
    Sega should have been putting the attention it put into the 32X into the Genesis and Sega CD. Remember, Sega was trying to support SIX PLATFORMS in 1995! They were overwhelmed, and none of those systems got good enough support that year as a result. And you're saying that what they should have done is release one different system, so they'd still have six systems to support in 1995? I don't think the results would be too different from the ones that we saw in reality... and if you're talking about canning the Saturn and 32X and releasing a cart-based Jupiter instead, Sega of America might have liked that idea, but Sega of Japan sure wouldn't have. And you're still releasing new hardware in 1994, which I just don't think is something Sega really needed... Sega as a whole didn't, for sure, anyway. Maybe Sega did in Japan, but if they paid more attention to the worldwide market than just their home market, I think that they might have realized, as Nintendo did, that no new hardware was required until somewhere between mid '95 and mid '96.

    (Oh, and maybe if they hadn't had a new system that year, Sega of Japan might actually have supported the Sega CD decently for more than one year... the SCD had good first-party support in 1993, but that's pretty much it.)

  6. #21
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    I'd say that releasing one addon for a system is reasonable; a single addon almost certainly won't be as successful as the main console, but it can do okay for a couple of years, and hit those numbers you just mentioned there; see the Expansion Pak, Kinect, or Sega CD for example. However, releasing a SECOND addon is almost certainly a mistake. There's only one single time that a second addon actually succeeded, and even there, it only did so in one region, while bombing in the other it was released in (PCE/TG16 Super CD). Second addons don't work. And any Genesis addon in late '94 would have been the system's second addon.
    So, which of these peripherals and add-ons were bad ideas and why?

    Atari 2600:
    Keyboard Controller
    Paddle Controller

    NES:
    Game Genie
    Rob the Robot
    NES Advantage
    Power Glove
    Power Pad
    U Force
    Zapper

    Master System:
    Control Stick
    Light Phaser
    Sega Scope 3D Glasses
    Sports Pad

    Genesis:
    3-Button Arcade Stick
    Menacer
    Power Base Converter
    6-Button Game Pad
    6-Button Arcade Stick
    Sega CD
    Activator
    32X

    TG16:
    CD-ROM
    Super System Card
    TurboTap
    Various Joysticks

    SNES:
    DSP
    SFX
    SFX-2
    Various Joysticks
    Super Scope
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

  7. #22
    Raging in the Streets A Black Falcon's Avatar
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    Controllers are not addons, so I would remove all of those from your list. I mean hardware addons, not controllers. Also, ones that are included inside game cartridges, like Super FX stuff, don't count either -- those are "invisible" addons that the buyer may or may not know or care about. I meant physical, hardware addons that are not built into game carts, and aren't just special controllers. I guess you're right that special controllers are a kind of addon, but they're a different kind of thing from what I, and this thread, are talking about.

    So, I removed everything from your list that isn't a hardware addon, and added some that you didn't mention, probably because they were only released in Japan.

    NES:
    Famicom Disk System (Japan-only; did okay for a couple of years, but then it faded, and most games were on cart after that.)
    (If you want to mention ROB, he was important at the launch for the US for getting the system into stores, but immediately became completely irrelevant. That only two games support him says a lot about that.)

    Master System:
    Sega Scope 3D Glasses (I'm not sure if this should count or not... probably not, but I left it here. Anyway, the tiny library of games that support it should say all you need to know about how successful this was. Later model systems can't even plug this in.)
    FM Sound addon (so successful they didn't even bother releasing it in the markets where the system actually did well...)

    Genesis:
    Power Base Converter (backwards compatibility adapter; different kind of thing)
    Sega CD (did okay but not as well as expected)
    32X (disastrous failure overall)

    TG16:
    CD-ROM (moderately successful in Japan, unsuccessful in the US)
    Super System Card/Duo systems (quite successful in Japan; became the system's main format for the later years of its life. Total failure in the US.)
    Arcade Card (Japan-only addon, not too successful; only supported in '94 and a couple of games in '95, and even then most games were regular Super System Card games)

    SNES:
    BS-X Satellaview (not all that successful, I think; it ran for years, but by the later years, those writeable carts seemed to be more popular than the satellite service.)


    If you want to talk about special controllers as "addons", though, generally any controller not packed in with a system will have only limited support. There are exceptions to this, such as how most Saturn and PS1 racing games support their systems' respective racing wheels, but there aren't too many. This is probably why the SMS and NES have much larger light-gun-game libraries than most other systems -- those systems came with the gun in the box. Similarly, that the Saturn didn't come with a 3D Controller, while the PS1 did come with the Dual Shock for like two thirds of its life, has to be one factor in why the 3D Controller isn't supported nearly as well (yes, the Saturn's much shorter life is another factor, but the difference in what was included in the box has to be another one.).

    This factor also helped the PCE Super CD, of course -- all Duo, Duo R, and Duo RX systems came with the CD drive and Super System Card included, so anyone buying a new PCE from '92 on would usually have gotten one that came with the Super System Card and CD drive included. This obviously made it a whole lot easier to make it the new standard, compared to addons that are only sold separately.

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    Sega should have made the 3D controller the standard controller to include with the console. more games would have used it then...

    Also, I would like to hear what the SMS is really capable of sound-wise when using the FM chip. Most games that are compatible with the FM expansion seem to almost exclusively use the FM chip for music, while mostly ignoring the SN76489. I'd like to hear somebody compose music for the SMS that makes full use of both the SN76489 and the YM2413 at the same time. (if there are any songs that do this, i'm not aware of them....)

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    Raging in the Streets A Black Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlecRob View Post
    Sega should have made the 3D controller the standard controller to include with the console. more games would have used it then...
    I strongly agree with you on this point, yes. They should have started including it in the box right after launching it, pretty much. Sony started including the Dualshock in the box with all new Playstations within a month of releasing the controller. Now, that was Sony's second analog controller, and the first one, the Dual Analog Controller, was never a packin, but just ~9 months (in Japan; 7 months in the US) separate the Dual Analog and Dual Shock controllers. Anyway, by the end of 1997, the analog controller came in the box (Aug. '97 in Japan, Dec. in the US/EU). I know that that was late in the Saturn's life, but the Saturn had an analog gamepad before the Playstation, and the N64 of course came with an analog controller in late '96. There's no reason that Sega couldn't have switched over Saturns to including the 3D Controller in the box in late 1996 -- indeed, I think that that's what they should have done.

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    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Controllers are not addons, so I would remove all of those from your list. I mean hardware addons, not controllers. Also, ones that are included inside game cartridges, like Super FX stuff, don't count either -- those are "invisible" addons that the buyer may or may not know or care about. I meant physical, hardware addons that are not built into game carts, and aren't just special controllers. I guess you're right that special controllers are a kind of addon, but they're a different kind of thing from what I, and this thread, are talking about.
    I would argue that controllers are indeed add-ons, and they ARE hardware for certain. I agree that chips inside a cart shouldn't be counted.

    I'd say that controllers are the most successful add-ons for ANY console, but said success causes people to disassociate them from "add-ons" in general because "everyone knows add-ons are unsuccessful." Note that not all controllers are successful, but people see that some are VERY successful and then lump them altogether.

  11. #26
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    I would argue that controllers are indeed add-ons, and they ARE hardware for certain. I agree that chips inside a cart shouldn't be counted.

    I'd say that controllers are the most successful add-ons for ANY console, but said success causes people to disassociate them from "add-ons" in general because "everyone knows add-ons are unsuccessful." Note that not all controllers are successful, but people see that some are VERY successful and then lump them altogether.
    The man is right. Also, type any system name in any search engine coupled with "peripheral" and see what items come back.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Personally, I think history puts add-ons in a bad light in general . . .
    This gets to the root of what I am mulling over and over and over. I don't think that all of the facts add up in this assertion, and I know that it is journalistic interpretation/narrative that paints add-ons in such a bad light. We know that most add-ons were poorly managed, and that most hardware in general has engineering flaws. We also know that all add-ons captured the attention of developers and gamers, making them all historically significant to different degrees.
    OK, I need to address better. First: when I'd said add-on there, I was implying "hardware add-on modifying the base system's hardware performance/capabilities and/or software media used." (RAM, CPU, coprocessor/graphics, sound, tape/disk/disc drive, and such) Controllers or other human interface devices using existing internal I/O hardware (and logic/CPU) to function would be in a different category of add-ons and upgrades. Also in the context of add-ons that users physically have to deal with, not something hidden and only an issue for manufacturing/programming. (cost/price point varies with development costs, volumes, and ROM size/pricing too, so I wouldn't count other on-cart hardware any differently)

    From a programming or hardware functionality standpoint, an on-cart upgrade and an expansion module could be functionally identical. But from a consumer and marketing standpoint, they are very different animals. (manufacturing logistics also vary)
    Hence why offering Virtua Racing bundled with the SVP module at the same price and as the ONLY format of initial launch is so critical in my premise. (and why I mention it being offered as standalone later on only, as well as suggesting the hardware be built-into the MD itself -at least once the cost/risk had enough evidence of being worthwhile)

    Plus, many peripherals can be used as short-term gimmicks (with possible long-term potential), that have relatively low monetary or PR repercussions if they fail to have lasting appeal/success. (ROB is a prime example here . . . not a particularly cheap one either, but one that was necessary for Nintendo to position itself in for a test market in 1985, after attempting to break into North America for more than 2 full years by that point) The fact that consumers responded better to the cheaper, simpler control-deck released in the expanded test market in 1986 doesn't make this less significant either, as the issue of retail marketing perception was key too (as far as getting the thing on store shelves -the WoW partnership also falls here). Nintendo had next to no name for itself in the US, and getting another new/unknown hardware platform out in the midst of the crash was a huge problem. (Atari's name still had much better PR at that point, and the 7800 could have launched with far less trouble, if not for legal matters hampering it -that's another topic entirely)


    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    I strongly agree with you on this point, yes. They should have started including it in the box right after launching it, pretty much. Sony started including the Dualshock in the box with all new Playstations within a month of releasing the controller. Now, that was Sony's second analog controller, and the first one, the Dual Analog Controller, was never a packin, but just ~9 months (in Japan; 7 months in the US) separate the Dual Analog and Dual Shock controllers. Anyway, by the end of 1997, the analog controller came in the box (Aug. '97 in Japan, Dec. in the US/EU). I know that that was late in the Saturn's life, but the Saturn had an analog gamepad before the Playstation, and the N64 of course came with an analog controller in late '96. There's no reason that Sega couldn't have switched over Saturns to including the 3D Controller in the box in late 1996 -- indeed, I think that that's what they should have done.
    This was a big problem with the Genesis/MD too. The 6 button controller should have been standardized in 1993. Not only are there a ton of existing games that require or virtually require it, but many more could have benefited from it had it been common/standard enough to not focus on 3 buttons alone.

    On top of that, it has a better ergonomic shape too, slightly smaller and better matched to most hands. (you need to have really big hands to fully appreciate the model 1 MD pad -which I do- and TBH, even the 6 button pad is better suited to big hands than most other 1st party controllers -it's a much better compromise than the NES, SNES, or PS1 pads IMO) Actually, I prefer the feel of the MD 6 button pad to either Saturn pads (3D is nice, but the grips are a little too short -no worse than DC pad though), for some reason even the mode button (shoulder position) is easier to press than the L/R buttons on either saturn pad. (both are at weird angles, worse than SNES -which is actually slightly worse than the Mode button too IMO . . . N64 is better though, and PS pads aside from very early models with skinny L/R)






    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    I would argue that controllers are indeed add-ons, and they ARE hardware for certain. I agree that chips inside a cart shouldn't be counted.

    I'd say that controllers are the most successful add-ons for ANY console, but said success causes people to disassociate them from "add-ons" in general because "everyone knows add-ons are unsuccessful." Note that not all controllers are successful, but people see that some are VERY successful and then lump them altogether.
    I agree here too, you need to qualify a specific category of "add-on" to sort things beyond that. There's also different perspectives on how these categories even matter: consumers, programmers, and marketing staff would all look at these things differently. (current market status/perception also matters -compare how "dumb" most average game console buyers were in the late 70s vs early 90s -some things stayed common ignorance, and others didn't -namely the ones in more common use) Hell, I'd even making a fairly modular/upgradable platform would have worked OK if the concept had been introduced gradually and consistently over a generation or 2. (at a certain point, average people tend to get confused with too many variables/complexity though . . . hence why PC building/self-upgrading isn't the norm for users even today)


    On the topic of controllers though, one consideration is that games will often work without going beyond the stock/default input device. However, some games will benefit from a specific controller upgrade while being backwards compatible, and still others would necessitate a special controller or upgrade to be playable at all. (from multiplayer games needing an added controller and/or multitap, special controllers or upgraded controllers -6 button, Saturn 3D, dual analog, or PC games requiring joysticks/gamepads and/or mice, etc, etc)

    That said, you could also have RAM/coprocessor upgrade modules (or speech modules, sound upgrades, etc, etc) where many games remained backwards compatible as well, but had the option for enhancement with the upgrade applied. (added content, better sound/graphics, etc)

    This is ignoring controllers that simply change the form factor or add "extra" features like turbo rather than a standard feature specifically utilized by 1st and/or 3rd party software.

    There's also a difference in consumer perception, but this is generally a marketing issue (including gradual/consistent introduction). There's the more real issue of difficulty of installation: most controllers just plug in, so an SVP lock-on card would be similar in this regard (S&K wasn't that confusing either), but the Sega CD needed an added power supply, added space (problem for tight entertainment center shelves/cabinets), and optional audio mixing and output cables. (32x takes more space. had the added power, video mixing cables, and output cables, with the latter being totally different if you'd been using a Model 1 . . . which could mean digging around behind a big TV/stereo receiver buried in an entertainment system -then there's the recommended base/shield plates, depending on model)

    In fact, the 32x is probably a near worst-case example since it's generally more complex than setting up most new, standalone systems, and I can say for sure, that (had we owned a Genesis a the time), it would have been a major pain to set up our family room entertainment system for that to work. (not enough vertical clearance on the shelves/enclosure, and need to dig behind a TV and receiver virtually embedded in the big oak cabinets all just to hook up new cables -assuming upgrading a Model 1) -An even bigger pain with the 27" Trinitron we had at the time, since it was just barely big enough that you couldn't rotate it to reach the back. (you had to pull the thing straight forward, ugh)
    Granted, you could use aux inputs on a VCR or switch box, if you had one . . . though we were using the built-in switching for our receiver at the time iirc. (might be remembering wrong, and it may just have been using the TV's built in switching between 3 composite input channels, since we never had more than 3 systems hooked into that at once)
    On a fun note: we actually had a set-up where the NES's front-loading design was necessary. (would have had to change the shelf arrangement to make clearance for a top loading cart there, though a Genesis might have worked OK given the short carts -especially with the Model 2's low profile)

    Also, the PSmove, Kinect, and wiimotionplus could all be considered "controller" add-ons too.


    Then there's things like the VR helmet and 3D glasses that aren't controllers and also aren't hardware supplements to the base system architecture (graphics/sound/CPU/memory). -On the note of both of those specific devices, I find it strange that during the "Virtual Reality" 3D craze, that no-one seemed be very interested in using LCD shutter glasses at all. They'd have been the cheapest/simplest options and should have worked at least as well as the SMS had (should have dropped in price too), then again, companies got weird with light guns in this time period too. (aside from the justifier)

    ---Hell, Sega probably could have re-used the Light Phaser if they'd allowed the MD I/O hardware to swap controller input map while in MD mode. (to re-enable the photo-diode I/O pin)
    Last edited by kool kitty89; 01-28-2013 at 12:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

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    I'd argue that the Menacer is more trouble to setup than the 32X.

    By the same criteria that people proclaim the 32X a failure, mice for any console are a dismall failure. Light guns are only slightly better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    I'd argue that the Menacer is more trouble to setup than the 32X.

    By the same criteria that people proclaim the 32X a failure, mice for any console are a dismall failure. Light guns are only slightly better.
    Same for the Power Glove and Super scope . . . possibly Kinect too. (actually, the wii's pointer can be a problem if you have relatively hot light bulbs or a sunny window nearby -the IR camera in the wii-remote can pick that stuff up)

    That said, all those devices would also be tougher to set up than most standalone consoles . . . aside from weird cases like buying a PS1 without an RF adapter, and needing one for an older/cheaper TV. (apparently a bigger complaint in the UK, and one of the reasons for the N64 coming bundled with an RF modulator at the UK launch)





    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    I'd say that releasing one addon for a system is reasonable; a single addon almost certainly won't be as successful as the main console, but it can do okay for a couple of years, and hit those numbers you just mentioned there; see the Expansion Pak, Kinect, or Sega CD for example. However, releasing a SECOND addon is almost certainly a mistake. There's only one single time that a second addon actually succeeded, and even there, it only did so in one region, while bombing in the other it was released in (PCE/TG16 Super CD). Second addons don't work. And any Genesis addon in late '94 would have been the system's second addon.
    Personally, I think it totally depends on the type of add-on in question, and the overall nature of the market at-hand, including consumer awareness and quality of marketing.

    IMO a totally modular, flexible, upgradable system could have been a market leader under the right circumstances. The key factors would be releasing practical, easy to install, cost-effective, and generally useful (feature wise) hardware at the right time at the right price point with the right marketing. (the latter 3 factors all depend on existing market situations) A design with the potential to be efficiently integrated with the base unit as a standardized evolution/revision of the system is also a huge factor.
    Catering to the huge variety of these latter factors for a worldwide market makes this far, far more limited though . . . at least if you want ALL upgrades to be popular in ALL regions. (RAM expansion in the modern context if an easy "yes" to all of those requirements though . . . still potentially confusing if multiple RAM upgrades were released though)

    The PC Engine was the closest thing to that scenario of a (potentially) modular console with its extremely open-ended expansion interface and relatively simple/compact base design (and in-house manufacturing greatly deflating costs and R&D turn-around). This was squandered with horribly underpowered and overly basic expansions with the CD unit, and an even more bizarre issue of the SuperGrafx being a standalone system adding features that were all easily possible through an expansion module. -Plus, thanks to botched management in the North American division (and non-existent European), the TG-16 never amounted to much outside Japan. (so focus on that region could be maintained without compromise)

    The CD and Super CD were OK, but far less than they could have been, as I already mused on (more than once in other threads too -Tomaitheous is big on this point). The SuperGrafx was a terrible idea given the alternatives, and the arcade card came too late to really be useful and was very expensive for what it offered. (due to generally stagnating RAM production costs, it wasn't much cheaper in 1994 than a similar device could have been in '92 . . . and 1 MB in the Super CD would have cost significantly less than that 2MB in 1994, and the Super CD card used SRAM too, so the price was inflated on that added 256k/192k too -the original CD only used DRAM, interestingly)

    Even so, I think the PC engine probably would have been fine with 2 add-ons tops, with the initial basic CD release followed by the Super CD (but more RAM -512k to 1 MB- and an added VDP and maybe new RAMDAC for an expanded palette, among other additions in a practical cost/complexity range). Release of a cost-effective integrated (Duo) unit would be a necessity too, and pushing that format as the defacto standard would be very significant. (basically expanding the old system into entirely new class of hardware -where the PC engine alone was arguably inferior to the MD and SNES on average technically, the new system would be almost universally superior and certainly superior on average)
    Assuming that was matched with realistic marketing/software backing, then NEC's situation by 1994 probably would have been a fair bit better . . . and launching the PC-FX would have been an even worse idea. (they obviously should have had a more powerful system in the works . . . and/or not shelved the Iron Man/PC-FX project in 1993, but kept the hardware evolving alongside developments like the 3DO, Jaguar, PC games, arcades, and Saturn/Playstation rumors)

    I'm not sure whether the whole NEC topic merits its own thread or not . . . maybe if the hardware upgrade/design topic was rolled in with the crappy management outside Japan.

    And also, the Saturn released in Japan at the same time the 32X did in the US. It's absolutely insane to launch a new addon for your older console at the same time that you launch a new system. That just makes no sense. The only way I could even begin to justify releasing a Genesis addon in 1994 is if the Saturn was cancelled
    More specfically, it would have made sense had the Saturn not been in development, and Sega had no better alternatives (like if they'd been delayed like the N64 ended up as). Cancelling the Saturn makes much less sense than scrapping the 32x, if you want to go there.

    Further, from the context of Janurary 1994, there was still a small worry that the Saturn would be delayed and miss its 1994 launch, making the 32x (or Neptune) potentially critical in Japan more than the US. In fact, that's probably why Sato's design wasn't another add-on: the MD install base in Japan wasn't big enough to make that outweigh the advantages of offering only a standalone unit. (so, had the Saturn failed to meet 1994 release, they'd really have wanted Neptune for Japan)
    However, with the Saturn design nearly complete (it must have been at the final debuging/revision stages to make mass production by mid 1994), that worry really shouldn't have been significant at all, so the main context would be outside that issue (SNES/Jaguar/3DO "threats" and market "hole" issues).

    Though, even with the decision to move forward with the actual 32x in early 1994, with the changes seen by that Summer, Sega should have been seriously considering canning the 32x, preferably before its unveiling at the Summer CES. Even after the CES, a quick death before launch (and refocusing on other projects) would have made for far less waste and PR backlash then ended up happening with 32x . . . then that stupid early Saturn launch in May '95. (the 32x made that even stupider, but they should never have done that with or without 32x . . . )

    This is also one more area where the "Jupiter" makes so much more sense. The ONLY major flaw is also one of its biggest advantages: relying on the Saturn chipset. So, if the Saturn chipset (CD interface aside) were delayed, so would be Jupiter. Again, this was probably an unlikely event given the Saturn's probable development status in early 1994. (the SCU, VDP1, and VDP2 were the most critical: those custom chips had to work, and work correctly)
    Hell, even the Jupiter might have had a niche on the Japanese market. It may have been less price sensitive than some western regions as a whole, but a cart based (otherwise equal) Saturn derivative at roughly 1/2 the price of the CD counterpart might have made a significant difference alongside the Saturn in Japan. (remember, the bare-bones Saturn launched for slightly more than the equivalent of $450 US in 1994 -and those are 1994 dollars)

    Sega should have been putting the attention it put into the 32X into the Genesis and Sega CD. Remember, Sega was trying to support SIX PLATFORMS in 1995!
    Yet another reason the Jupiter would have been better, and even better than the 32x (in some ways SVP too). It would basically be an extension of the Saturn platform in general, so instead of SMS+GG+MD+MCD+32x+Saturn, you'd have Jupiter+Saturn basically sharing software development resources. Albeit, manufacturing, marketing and distribution resources/logistics would a separate consideration. (they'd have to make careful predictions for hardware/software production volumes for when and where the Saturn would take priority, albeit overproducing Saturn hardware would be a bigger risk than Jupiter due to cost, but software production would see the opposite trend in risks -cheap/easy to scale CD-ROM production)

    On another note: the SMS was nearly dead by this point (and Tec Toy was mostly autonomous), and it was basically down to viral marketing in Europe as a niche budget platform. (so mostly manufacturing/distribution logistics for Sega to keep track of) As far as software went, the GG and SMS could basically be considered the same platform (IMO they should have been even closer, hardware wise, but that's another topic too ). Very little effort was needed to port between SMS and GG, with relatively minor trade-offs for going between the 2. (and even the option to run the GG in SMS mode if necessary -as a few games did)

    (Oh, and maybe if they hadn't had a new system that year, Sega of Japan might actually have supported the Sega CD decently for more than one year... the SCD had good first-party support in 1993, but that's pretty much it.)
    Without other management changes, I rather doubt this. SoJ, for whatever strange reason, failed to push the MCD (software development/programming wise) for pretty much its entirely life. In spite of it being out a full year earlier in Japan, it was western developers who were most notable in pushing the hardware's capabilities.
    SoJ's poor documentation of the system (at least for translated docs) hurt this too, but dedicated programmers managed to push through a lot of that eventually. (it was also SoA and western 3rd parties that implemented competent streaming video formats -Japanese FMV being choppy uncompressed messes, with limited color optimization for the most part -the fact the animation styles tended to mask this somewhat only means they might have been among the nicest MCD video with decent codecs used -Like Dragon's Lair or Batman and Robin)

    In Japan, very few developers even came close to really pushing the hardware effectively (technically or aesthetically), and Game Arts was the one shining example that did that with any margin of consistency. (including their streaming video and hybrid sprite/tile animation cinematic techniques, but certainly their use of the sound and graphics capabilities too)

    In fact, Game Arts not only was exceptional in that respect, but they also manged to innovate with multimedia usage very tastefully and effectively, as better contemporary PC games did to effectively make a game more immersive and overall more interesting and "fun" to play. (they also had one of the very few -and perhaps the best- examples of games using streaming BGs as a prime gameplay feature and being overall better off for it: Silpheed is that game, and that game is also one of the best examples on the system successfully using in-game speech to enhance immersion)

    Popful Mail also did that to a fair extent, and with nice use of cinematics and in-game speech too (actually seems Game-Arts-like -comparing it to Lunar II), but I think that was actually done by Sega in-house. (licensed from Falcom, of course) No use of the graphics hardware additions, but good use of sound and multimedia aspects to complement an established/conventional 2D genre.
    Last edited by kool kitty89; 01-28-2013 at 03:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    NES:
    Famicom Disk System (Japan-only; did okay for a couple of years, but then it faded, and most games were on cart after that.)
    (If you want to mention ROB, he was important at the launch for the US for getting the system into stores, but immediately became completely irrelevant. That only two games support him says a lot about that.)
    I already addressed ROB specifically, but as to the FDS:

    It was also technically flawed. Like several later mass-storage basted platforms, it was heavily bottlenecked by onboard RAM, but in this case also had the issues of relatively mediocre storage capacity (112 kB) on top of the slow data rate (significant load times even given the limited memory in question) and the piracy threat common to pretty much any floppy disk platform. That 8k of sprite/tile RAM in particular was pretty weak.

    There were just too many advantages for using ROM carts, and the potential budget market advantages of the format weren't very attractive for Nintendo either. For Japan, the MSX was the main "console" class hardware platform for disk/tape based games in that niche, more like contemporary home computers in the US and Europe.

    Hell, the PCE CD barely had enough onboard RAM to be really useful (64k+8k+64K+64k) . . . granted, that's "useful" in the 1988 cutting-edge home console context. (albeit, in that sense, dedicating 64k mostly usable only for ADPCM samples seems a little odd -rather than using a single block of 128k and using the CPU to play PCM when needed -yet another things better addressed in another topic though )

    FM Sound addon (so successful they didn't even bother releasing it in the markets where the system actually did well...)
    This was just a stupid decision on Sega's part in general IMO. There's no reason they shouldn't have brought it out in the US or Europe. They couldn't have had it out for launch (FM module wasn't released until after the US/EU SMSs were in production), but it would have been a really nice addition and even more so to integrate it as a standard feature later-on.
    With good marketing/management and support, it could have made a real difference for the system . . . granted, those things (marketing/managemet) were the key areas where Sega failed miserably in the US with the SMS. (need I say more?)


    Power Base Converter (backwards compatibility adapter; different kind of thing)
    I agree, but on the topic: this shouldn't have existed at all, and I've discussed this at length before. There's very little reason that Sega shouldn't have made the MD pin-compatible with the SMS. The MD already remaps the cart slot's pins for SMS mode, so most MD games could probably stick with just having 44 or 50 pins (JP vs western SMS) and then use 7800/SNES style outboard expansion pins when added connectivity was necessary. Just use an adapter for cards (since they were so unpopular).
    Hell, that could even make average MD games cheaper and making JP carts harder to use on western consoles wasn't a bad thing from Sega's PoV. (they did region lock things from day 1, after all -easy to hack around, literally, but the cart shape change was obviously intended as such)
    Or, if they wanted to standardize PCB designs, then stick with the more common (better selling) 50 pin slot and use an adapter in Japan only.

    SNES:
    BS-X Satellaview (not all that successful, I think; it ran for years, but by the later years, those writeable carts seemed to be more popular than the satellite service.)
    Not all that useful as a "game" add-on either. It was more of a non-game accessory for a game system. (kind of like the MPEG encoder for 3DO, or HD-DVD drive for the Xbox 360)

    This factor also helped the PCE Super CD, of course -- all Duo, Duo R, and Duo RX systems came with the CD drive and Super System Card included, so anyone buying a new PCE from '92 on would usually have gotten one that came with the Super System Card and CD drive included. This obviously made it a whole lot easier to make it the new standard, compared to addons that are only sold separately.
    The issue of releasing attractively positioned (ie well marketed and attractively priced -plus form factor/aesthetics) integrated version of an upgrade is a key element to bringing it to the status of a real all-encompassing standard feature for that platform. In NEC's case, to the point of actually becoming THE standard format, more or less a successor to the PC Engine as a system in its own right.

    Aforementioned criticism aside, the Duo is definitely a big thing that was done right with the Super CD. In fact, that was even done right in the US under the newly formed Turbo Technologies as far as market positioning and pricing (the Duo price-matched the Sega CD add-on by itself). That wasn't enough to drive the system to success outside Japan though. (with the lack of market presence of the TG-16, still limited marketing funds from NEC -apparently, given limited ads, relatively limited western software interest and/or limited attempts to opening the platform to 3rd parties, etc etc)

    Again, this should be a separate topic, but it really is strange to think that (given NEC's position as a company) the PC Engine could in some respects have gone over more like the PS1 for the same reasons Sony managed to do that (sense to invest heavy market research in what was working well in each reason, and then applying that with massive monetary investment). Probably would have made for an even more interesting "16-bit war" had that been the case. (with the support/management Sega managed historically, it shouldn't have been 1-sided like the Saturn mess either) Meh.



    Anyway, I've argued this in depth before too, but given how serious Sega seemed to be with the Sega CD at the time, I really can't see why they didn't push for an attractive cost effective (read: "significantly cheaper than MD+MCD") "Duo" type Sega CD derivative. Say, $300-350 by late 1993 and perhaps $200-250 by late '94.
    And, again, a better supported/complemented MD+MCD in general would have made the "need" for the 32x to disappear anyway. (well . . . several very notable advantages for the Jupiter -in association with Saturn- would still remain though)

    I still feel there's a stronger argument on the Sega CD topic in general, but I don't want to address that here. (trying to minimize the number of side-topics, as it tends to get overly complicated as it is . . . and my posts are more than long enough too )
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

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