Sega Saturn Revisions and Models Guide

[Vector2013]

Okay.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Good for you, did you find others or just these or even know the exact revisions these are ?

Nope, those were the only three different ones that showed up, because those are the three main revisions. From the looks of it one is a VA0, another is a VA SD, and the last one is a VA8.

The only other radically different one I know if is the one for the Hi-Saturn Navi. Good luck finding a picture of that one.

I said PORT, the black PORT is not in picture 1. Now look in later revision pictures you posted.

Are you completely incapable of thinking on your own and connecting the dots? That motherboard revision is the early one where the MPEG port is on a separate board. That separate board is simply not pictured.

[Vector2013]

Nope, those were the only three different ones that showed up,

Exactly you did the same thing I did before I made thread. The reason I did thread was to have text of revisions next to those and other pictures and list minor differences.

because those are the three main revisions. From the looks of it one is a VA0, another is a VA SD, and the last one is a VA8.

VA0.8 you mean, the one I posted in picture 2 in post 1. Okay. There might be more main revisions.

Are you completely incapable of thinking on your own and connecting the dots? That motherboard revision is the early one where the MPEG port is on a separate board. That separate board is simply not pictured.

Learn to READ what I say. I said PORT (riveted black port) not board. No fucking shit the small board aren't in pictures.

And tell me you condescending fuck, where would the small mpeg board even connect to, the BLACK PORT isn't even of main board hence my question.

Can you be civil or must you act like an ignorant fuck with insults to people ? All 3 of those pictures are of just main board with no mpeg board BUT PICTURE 1 doesn't even have the mpeg black PORT (where separate board WOULD connect to) BUT PICTURES 2 AND 3, LATER REVISIONS DO, and all the main boards have the ACTUAL PORT ON riveted main board yes ?

[zyrobs]

Interesting But my va0.8 was made in 1996 then why is my va sg (va4) made in 1995 ? Or is va2 = va0.2 ? Or is it a model 2 va0.8 board in a model 1 case (my 1996 hd one ?) and va sg a model 1 va4 board in model 1 case as supposed to be ? See my pictures in post 1 if you need to.

If the revision number in the serial does not match up the motherboard inside, then someone swapped the cases.
VA0.5 and VA0.8 are both VA0. VA1 has just "VA" on the motherboard, and VA1 on the controller board. VA2 and 4 are marked as VA SG, and VA3 and 5 are marked as VA SD on the board. Everything else has the number clearly marked on the board.
The exact assembly date of the unit is printed on the motherboard, either a black ink stamp (for very early units) or more commonly just a sticker.

I'm just talking about Saturns like that, I mean going through 1700 listings is a lot compared to just someone here reading 10 Saturn revisions with text and pictures of inside next to it.

I already told you that you can get a dropdown list of all unique revision entries stored in the database, if you click on the search tab. These are the ones visible from the serial.

Maybe a revision has a better manufacturer lens.

All revisions use the same, identical JVC Optima-6 laser. There is no difference or better manufacturing. A very few units use Sanyo or Hitachi drives instead, but those are near impossible to distinguish by the serial, save for a few very specific runs - and even beyond those, they pop up randomly. We'd have to catalogue thousands of Saturns to pin those down with any accuracy. So the only way to tell those is to take a look at the drive.

Right, so what's the big deal in just typing that here ?

OK, I'll save you the trouble. Not because you asked nicely or anything!


Motherboards:
Note that the changes are all evolutional unless noted. If one revision, for example, integrates two ICs into one, all following ones have that too unless noted.
Board types used in Model 1: VA0 to 3
Board types used in Model 2: VA2 to 15

- VA0: Launch units, very first revision. CD Block is on a daughterboard, power supply mounted on top ("Type A"). Power led, access led, on/off and reset buttons, and the CD Tray open/close sensor are all separate. Uses ENR-007B drives (on some later units, ENR-007D). Very rarely they may have a Hitachi drive instead (JA00292).

- VA1: marked as "VA" on the motherboard, "VA1" on the controller board. Power supply is now bottom mounted ("Type B"). Every previous sub-board is now integrated to the motherboard, except the controller ports which are separated. This includes the CD Tray sensor which is now a very tall switch on the motherboards. Uses ENR-007D drives.

- VA2 & 3: Same form factor as VA1, but there are small changes to accompany the different CD Drive. The controller board is also a little different from VA1. VA2 is marked as VA SG, and VA3 is marked as VA SD. Type B power supply and ENR-011A drive.
VA2 uses SG RAM for the main memory, VA3 uses SD RAM (hence their markings).

You'll notice that even revisions will all use SG RAM and the following odd one will use SD RAM, but the boards themselves are otherwise identical.

- VA4 & 5: Exactly the same as VA2 and 3, respectively, but in a model 2 case. The only difference is that a few components are removed (access led, memory reset button, resistor leading to both of them), since they are not used on model 2s anymore. Type B power supply, ENR-011A drive.
Note that some model 2s are still marked as VA2 or 3 by the serial number, but they also have those components removed, perhaps some manufacturers failed to get the memo.

- VA6 to 9: Entirely new form factor, everything is in a single board from now on. Uses a new PLL chip (CY2292SC-45). Power supply has a different pinout ("Type C"). Uses ENR-013A drive. Some units may have a Sanyo 610-6185-30 drive instead.
VA6 & 7 has the CD Block reduced to a single IC from the previous two, VA8 & 9 has them still separated.
VA6 & 8 uses SG RAM, VA 7 & 9 uses SD RAM.
VA9 seems to be using a much later design and is almost exclusive to PAL units, the only exception being the Hi-Saturn MMP-11. It also uses the old type PLL chip (315-5746, aka Hitachi HD49422).

- VA10 to 15: uses HQA-001A drive, sometimes rarely a Sanyo 610-6294-30 or a Sanyo 610-6473-30 instead. Sound block is now integrated to a single IC instead of two. Type C power supply.
VA10 uses SG RAM, VA11 & 13 & 15 uses SD RAM.
VA11 has a small extra daughter board to fix some design error. The function of that board is unknown.
VA11+ boards have a different form factor DAC, VA10 uses the old one.
VA12 and 14 were never produced. They would have been SG RAM counterparts to VA13 and 15. They may have been produced in extremely low quantities, so low that they haven't been spotted, but I doubt this
VA15 integrates the two SH-2 main cpus into a single IC.

Note: the integrated sound block has a bug in certain 68000 commands, this might be the same bug as the Genesis 3 suffers from as that one also has an integrated 68000 made by Yamaha. The result is that certain games are incompatible with these boards. The japanese only releases of Space Harrier and Outrun are the only two I recall, and both have received second pressings that eliminate this bug and work in all machines equally.
Metal Slug is rumoured to be incompatible, but this appears to be false.


PAL Motherboards (only the main differences are listed, otherwise see above):
All PAL boards use different region & video output jumpers when compared to ntsc machines and use a 17.7344 Mhz master clock (NTSC units use 14.31818 Mhz).
They also replace the c-sync output of the a/v out with a 9v connection, intended for SCART auto switching. On VA7+ boards, there is an extra power supply pin added to the entire machine just for that. C-sync is still there, just not wired into the a/v out, it can be restored with modding very easily (in case you are interested, the test point for c-sync is TP4 near the a/v out, on the bottom of the board).
For 50/60hz modding info, I'll cover those later.
- VA0 PAL - has extra jumpers to set the master clock divider (JP18 & 19), functional but unpopulated 50/60hz switch on the back (SW4).
- VA1 PAL - unpopulated 50/60hz switch on the back (SW4). There is a design snafu however, as it is still connected to the master clock divider select pin. Therefore the switch does not work on its own, you have to cut or raise+ground the PLL pin 1 for the switch to work.
- VA3 PAL - has extra jumpers to set the master clock divider (JP20 & 21), functional but unpopulated 50/60hz switch on the back (SW4).
- VA5 PAL - same as VA3 PAL.
- VA7 PAL - chronologically, this board was designed after VA9, likely to use up remaining stock of certain parts. Unlike NTSC boards, this still uses the old Hitachi PLL (315-5746), and its pin 1 is interconnected to the pal/ntsc and 50/60hz selection pins on the video encoder and the VDP2. So, for installing 50/60hz switches, you have to separate those accordingly. Has an extra fifth power supply pin for the a/v out (for SCART auto selection).
- VA9 - same notes apply as for VA7 PAL. This is an odd board in that it has no NTSC equivalent. Only the model 2 Hi-Saturn MMP-11 used VA9 boards, and they used the exact same boards as PAL machines, not counting the different jumper setup, master clock, power supply, etc.
- VA13 PAL - Has an extra fifth power supply pin for the a/v out (for SCART auto selection), but otherwise it seems to be identical to the NTSC boards.

It should be noted that no PAL board ever used SGRAM. The cause of this is unknown. Of course, the cause of using SGRAM in the first place is also unknown (and up to speculation - possible causes for both points include contractual obligations, shortage of one specific part, or a very good deal on SGRAM that made it worth to design two of each motherboards).



Power supplies:
Type A is for VA0 units, is mounted to the top, pinout is GND, GND, 3.3V, 5V, (empty pin), 9V. (5 pins total)
Type B is for VA 1 to 5 units, bottom mounted, pinout is GND, GND, 3.3V, 5V, 9V. (5 pins total)
Type C is for VA6+ units, bottom mounted, pinout is GND, GND, 5V, 5V (4 pins total).
PAL units use a 5-pin variant of Type C power supplies, where the extra fifth pin is a 9V used exclusively in the a/v connector (for SCART auto switching).
Later Asian units (that have a 220v power supply) most likely use that type of power supply too, with the 5th pin just not connected. In fact I've seen some USA machines that had a hole for the fifth pin but it was not connected to anything.

The moniker "Type A/B/C" is, I believe, coined by the service manuals.


CD Drives:
20pin, VA0-1:
- JVC ENR-007B EMW10447-003E
- JVC ENR-007B EMW10447-004E
- JVC ENR-007D EMW10447-005E
- JVC ENR-007D EMW10447-006E
- Hitachi JA00292
These are all 20pin units. The Hitachi drive is rarely found in Japanese units, most commonly on early Hi-Saturns. They also seem to be exclusive to the SKC-1000 and SKC-1000C.
There is a small difference in the microcontrollers used between ENR-007B and D.

21pin, VA 2-5:
- JVC ENR-011A EMW10589-002
- JVC ENR-011A EMW10589-003
These are the so-called 64pin drives. The -002 one seems to be used only in model 1s and the -003 only in model 2s, but as far as I can tell they are exchangeable.

21pin, VA6-9:
- JVC ENR-013A EMW20035-002 610-6185-20
- Sanyo 610-6185-30
The JVC drive is most often referred to as the 32pin drive. The Sanyo drive may or may not come with an extra Trap Board, its function is unknown at this point.

21pin, VA10-15:
- JVC HQA-001A HQ100002-002 610-6294-20
- Sanyo 610-6294-30
- Sanyo 610-6473-30
Same as the above ones, but they all lack an oscillator and have a white border on the edges of the PCB. The Sanyo drive does not always comes with a trap board apparently.

Optical pickups used:
for EVERY JVC drive: Optima-6 (personally verified this for all drives)
for the Hitachi drive: HOP-6 (personally verified)
for Sanyo drives: SF-P101 is used in the 610-6185-30 (verified). I don't have the other two to check, but they likely use the same.

As you can see, there are three different Sanyo drives, from two different type of drive families. Modchip guides seem to take them all under the same umbrella, and that's why one guide may not work with one of the Sanyo drives (as it was meant for the other type).




Special Saturn units:
note: all production numbers are ESTIMATED FROM THE SERIAL NUMBERS. They may not be accurate, so don't take them for granted.

- "Skeleton" Saturns: exact same as the normal Japanese units, except for the shell and the boxing, and they came with transparent controllers as well. They had VA13 and VA15 motherboards inside. VA13 seems to have been in the HST-0020 Special Campaign Original machines, while the VA15 ones were in HST-0021 models, but I'm not 100% sure on this. These were among the last Saturns ever produced. The HST-0020s were made in late 1997, and the VA15 ones in 1998. They were all made by Seiyo Denshi. Estimated production based on the serials I have: ~30000 to ~40000.
There is a rumour that made its way to Wikipedia stating that these units were made for the USA market, but this is false, no USA Skeleton machine exists. The only American skeleton unit was the Brazilian Tectoy model, which was most likely a rebranded normal Skeleton unit.

- Derby Stallion: exact same as the normal Japanese units, except for the shell and the boxing. In contrast to the other Skeleton units, these had a lighter and greener transparent case and no "this is cool" logo. They were all VA15 boards, and the HST-0022 package they were sold as was the very last Saturn bundle Sega released. They were all made by Sanwa Denki in 1998, but released much later in 1999 to promote the Derby Stallion game software. Estimated production based on the serials I have: at least ~12000, might be as much as ~30000 (I have a huge gap for this production run so I can't be any more sure).

- JVC V-Saturn: exact same as the normal Japanese units (are you beginning to see a trend here?), the only difference is the BIOS rom, the case colour, and the brand. They used pretty much every type of motherboard and are quite common. Note that only the top of the case has a unique colour, the bottom uses the same as the grey Japanese Saturns. Based on the serials, there are ~70000 model 1 units and ~140000 model 2 units produced, and they have been in production from the very start (1994 November) to the very end (1998 July).

- Hitachi Hi-Saturn: exact same as the normal Japanese units, the only difference is the BIOS rom, the case colour, and the brand. They used VA0, VA1 and VA2 boards for the MMP-1, MMP-1-1 and MMP-1-2 units (model 1) and VA9 for MMP-11 units (model 2). They often they also had a Video CD card pre-installed in the back slot, as they were meant to be multimedia units, sold for A/V enthusiasts. The case colour was unique only for the top, the bottom of the case was a normal black one, like in USA and PAL machines. Produced: ~5500 (MMP-1), ~2000 (MMP-1-1), ~11000 (MMP-1-2), ~10000 (MMP-11). Note that due to the low production number, these estimates are not very accurate, they may have been thousands more units produced.

- Hitachi Hi-Saturn NAVI (MMP-1000NV): A specialized unit with an external power supply, karaoke controls (voice cancellation DSP and microphone inputs), GPS, optional LCD display, video input for optional TV Tuner, and lots of other things. They used a unique motherboard most likely based on VA1 or VA2/3 boards. The CD Drive is a huge cusotm board that houses all the extra audio functions. Optical pickup is unknown, presumed to be a Hitachi type. Has no RGB out, but it can be modded back in fairly easily. Produced from 1995 November to at least 1996 January, number of units produced is unknown, and hard to estimate as I don't have enough serials to do so. The highest serial I have a record of is 1416, so ~1500 produced units seems plausible. A guesstimate given by nfggames is ~2000 units produced.

- Samsung Saturn: a machine released in South Korea under the Samsung brand. There are a lot of rumours about what is inside these, but the three units I've seen opened up were all completely stock Japanese VA1 motherboards (171-7006C 837-11613-01), had everything intact, with only the region jumpers and the BIOS rom being different. The region is set to 2 for Korea, and the BIOS version states v1.02a and looks like the usa/pal version rather than the Japanese one. Units produced: unknown, my guess is ~3-4000, but there might have been a lot more.

- Asian / HK units: these were again normal Japanese units, with different boxing only, and a 220v power supply. These units all have their model numbers end in -07. Not much to say about these, their boxes were in English instead of Japanese. They are a nice option if you live in PAL land but want a 60hz machine without modding, as their 220v power supply makes voltage converters unnecessary. They had counterparts for almost every Japanese boxed release. Known motherboards are VA0, 1, 3, 5, 7, 13, and 15. The last few units came with Video CD cards preinstalled, and had a red "Video CD" label on the console and the boxing had unique yellow colours instead of white.

- Korean units: not to be confused with the Samsung Saturn. These were Sega branded model 2s, model number MK-80200A-08. I have little info on these other than that they exist, were made in 1997, and use VA13 boards.

- Tectoy Sega Saturn: sold in Brazil by Tectoy, these units were essentially rebranded USA units at first (both model 1 and 2), then Japanese white units, and lastly Skeleton Saturns. The white and skeleton units even retained the Japanese BIOS roms. All these units had a few internal modifications: custom power supplies were added, all serial numbers were removed, the region was changed to region 4 for USA when necessary, and units were fitted to output PAL-M signal. This sometimes included changing the master clock to 14.302446 Mhz, but sometimes they only added a separate sub-board with an oscillator, and fed the clock input directly to the video encoder, leaving the default 14.318 Mhz master clock in place.
Since all serials were removed, it is impossible to guess how many of these were made.

- Sunseibu SGX: a unit that was apparently used as a hotel kiosk with a coin based timer system, and could house multiple game CDs inside which were selectable. I don't have enough info on this, but the one internal screenshot I have suggest that it used a VA SG or VA SD type board.

- SKC: short for Sega Karaoke Commander, this was a Denon/Columbia built dedicated Karaoke machine with multiple audio/video outputs, multiple microphone inputs, dedicated high quality mixers and DSPs, a modem, a SCSI hard drive, and connections for an optional CD Changer that could house ~50 discs, and for a coin counter. The unit connected to the internet and to download midi-esque song data + lyrics, and other updates such as latest news, ads, weather forecasts, etc. You could then select a song to play (even queue up multiple ones), and show off your karaoke skills for a few coins. It is assumed that the CD Changer could be filled with discs and then the system could double as a jukebox, but this is unknown. It could also play Saturn games, but with no battery backups and cart connectors, this function was limited - and I have no idea how it would've functioned with the coin input. Internally the machine uses mostly Denon boards, a Roland DSP board, and a Saturn board based on a VA0, but labelled as "Commander" instead, with its own BIOS. The machine has no RGB out, but has 4-6 Composite and S-video outputs, perhaps driving all of them at the same time.
There was a later revision called SKC-1000C which reduced the huge amount of boards inside. The main motherboard on that one was labelled "Commander C", and included the full Saturn hardware, the hard drive controller, and the ROM board (those were separate on the SKC-1000).

Any questions?

[zyrobs]

jesus, by the time I typed that all up you guys threw 2 pages worth of shit at each other.

Maybe that is because in one post Zy says that small board isn't an mpeg board it's a cd block, but me you and guy in video call small board an mpeg board, because it is. I see no reason why Zy would say that board isn't an mpeg board as we clearly were discussing small mpeg board.

It is not an MPEG board. It's the CD Block. The service manuals call it SH1 Board. It has the Hitachi SH1 processor, the OCU (a custom ASIC that handles the actual CD reading), and the 512kbyte RAM buffer. These three parts make up the CD subsystem, aka CD block.

There is nothing MPEG related there anywhere, except for the connector you plug the Video CD expansion card into. But if you check your later Saturns, you can see that they have the SH1, the OCU, and the buffer ram integrated (IC36, 37 and 38, respectively: search around the battery compartment).

[Vector2013]

It is not an MPEG board. It's the CD Block. The service manuals call it SH1 Board. It has the Hitachi SH1 processor, the OCU (a custom ASIC that handles the actual CD reading), and the 512kbyte RAM buffer. These three parts make up the CD subsystem, aka CD block.

There is nothing MPEG related there anywhere, except for the connector you plug the Video CD expansion card into. But if you check your later Saturns, you can see that they have the SH1, the OCU, and the buffer ram integrated (IC36, 37 and 38, respectively: search around the battery compartment).

Thank you very much for that list and all your help so far, I really appreciate you typing it in this thread. I will quote the list then and do my best to find pictures of insides under text to most of those you typed. Are you still going to post that one picture of inside or ? I'll use my va sg and va0.8 pictures for the texts.

Thanks to Trek for being helpful on page 1 and Zy through out the thread.

[zyrobs]

I'd rather not have you post any images anywhere into my list because you clearly have no clue, and the pictures you posted so far are also terrible.
I have more or less all PAL units properly photographed, but they need some photoshop touchup because I used very warm lamps for lightning.

However I don't have enough NTSC boards, mostly because I live in Europe and shipping of such machines costs a LOT. And, there are 3-4x more NTSC variants to get.

[Vector2013]

I'd rather not have you post any images anywhere into my list because you clearly have no clue

I have no clue about text that says va0.8 is my Saturn va 0.8 or my va sg/va 4 picture should go in va sg/va4 text. Okay.

, and the pictures you posted so far are also terrible.

Thanks, you are nice too I see.

I have more or less all PAL units properly photographed, but they need some photoshop touchup because I used very warm lamps for lightning.

However I don't have enough NTSC boards, mostly because I live in Europe and shipping of such machines costs a LOT. And, there are 3-4x more NTSC variants to get.

Okay. Well thanks for your help anyway.

[Vector2013]

I made this thread to learn. But tell me what exactly I have no clue about. So I'm supposed to only get condescending answers or be talked to condescendingly, fair enough as long as I learn.

[zyrobs]

I have no clue about text that says va0.8 is my Saturn va 0.8 or my va sg/va 4 picture should go in va sg/va4 text. Okay.

Your machine with the serial AE62036230 is a VA2. You can tell from the serial:
AE - manufacturer code
6 - date, 1996
2 - board revision number, so VA2
036230 - # of unit produced.

I've already covered this.
Plus if you've read the list I wrote, you could've identified your machine as a VA2 too.

Thanks, you are nice too I see.

I'm sorry but compare this:
http://i41.tinypic.com/vhe2vn.jpg

to this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...otherboard.jpg

or this
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a...8/IMG_0937.JPG

It's not a matter of being nice or not - the picture you posted is just awful.

[Vector2013]

Your machine with the serial AE62036230 is a VA2. You can tell from the serial:
AE - manufacturer code
6 - date, 1996
2 - board revision number, so VA2
036230 - # of unit produced.

I've already covered this.
Plus if you've read the list I wrote, you could've identified your machine as a VA2 too.

Okay I didn't get that far in list yet, just was generally typing as you said va sg could be va 2, va4 or w/e. But thanks.

I'm sorry but compare this:
http://i41.tinypic.com/vhe2vn.jpg

to this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...otherboard.jpg

or this
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a...8/IMG_0937.JPG

It's not a matter of being nice or not - the picture you posted is just awful.

That is true, I just have an old cell phone with 2mp camera so and not enough light here so. Wish I had a iphone5 with better lighting in my house. The whole part of "I don't want your pictures anywhere near my list I posted in your thread" (paraphrasing) was actually it too. I mean you said oh I could be nicer and this and that but I thank you a lot for all the info and rep you so how much nicer should I be ? I could have asked nicer yes but people could be less condescending to me too in a thread where I typed 10 times I'm trying to gather all this in. It will take me a while to read your list and stuff but thank you for your help.

[Guntz]

They are usually called mpeg cards or vcd / video cd cards. I never heard anybody say "Hey have a Saturn JVC mpeg board ?".

It's still misleading to say MPEG board. Why not expansion port daughterboard? Or expansion port? That's what it is!

[Vector2013]

Wouldn't the port be that riveted black connector on main board that helps house/rise the "cd block" board ? Wouldn't the JVC card be called a card, vcd card, mpeg card ? Zy explained it's not a mpeg board anyway.

[zyrobs]

It's still misleading to say MPEG board. Why not expansion port daughterboard? Or expansion port? That's what it is!

The service manual calls it the SH1 board, I call it the CD Block... That's what it is

If you want a real MPEG board, open up a video cd card - it actually has MPEG Board written on it!

Okay I didn't get that far in list yet, just was generally typing as you said va sg could be va 2, va4 or w/e. But thanks.

Maybe you need to stop and do your research then. Learn to swim before you dive in to the deep, lest you drown.

I made this thread to learn. But tell me what exactly I have no clue about. So I'm supposed to only get condescending answers or be talked to condescendingly, fair enough as long as I learn.

Here's a clue: I typed in 2-3 years worth of my own research, practically from the top of my head, more info than anyone wrote up about the topic anywhere, giving you exactly what you want, and then you tumble over how condescending I am.

Also, I'd recommend a dedicated camera if you are halfway serious about photography... even a 100$ cheap point & shoot camera can take pictures about as good as the ones I posted with some setup and skill. Phone cameras will never be as good no matter the megapixels, they just don't have that good optics. And an iphone5 costs 700$, for that price you could even get a DSLR camera...

[Vector2013]

Maybe you need to stop and do your research then.

I said I didn't get that far on your list yet (research). Like I said I will be looking at the post for awhile. Again, thank you for typing it.

Learn to swim before you dive in to the deep

That was point of thread to learn. I know my Saturn was a va0.8 though.

Here's a clue: I typed in 2-3 years worth of my own research, practically from the top of my head, more info than anyone wrote up about the topic anywhere, giving you exactly what you want, and then you tumble over how condescending I am.

I appreciated your info. But the "you should ask nicer, you don't have a clue about this that, I don't want your pictures nowhere my list, maybe do research, learn to crawl before you walk (I just got done telling you I didn't get far in your list and I made the thread to learn because I'm a noob with Saturns in terms of stuff we are discussing here)" TYPE talk and Treks posts (I would have knocked 3 of his teeth out of his jaw if he ever said that to my face for any reason) lately weren't a little condescending ? You said 3 times you had many years experience with this, I get it.

Also, I'd recommend a dedicated camera if you are halfway serious about photography...

I'm not serious about photography, I just don't have a 16 mp iphone5 or new camera.

even a 100$ cheap point & shoot camera can take pictures about as good as the ones I posted with some setup and skill. Phone cameras will never be as good no matter the megapixels, they just don't have that good optics. And an iphone5 costs 700$, for that price you could even get a DSLR camera...

Okay thanks, I will look into that then.