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Thread: Translating Lunar Silver Star Story for the Saturn

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    The Best Genesis Master of Shinobi GohanX's Avatar
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    There is hope! This is pretty amazing.
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    Recently I sold the majority of my 32X games for a measly 18 bucks. With it, I bought some tacos. Definitely a more pleasing choice.

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    yeah, that's awesome to hear! maybe i should finally invest in one of those MPEG cards before this finally happens.


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    Pretty very cool. Would prefer the Working Designs voices, tho. Maybe I can help, even. It's been forever since I've done some things but I'll start looking into what I'd need to do to the audio for using it on Saturn. Could probably do a re-dub even, but the whole point of the first statement was all about getting John Truitt's voice in there, so.. :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhaleonX View Post
    Pretty very cool. Would prefer the Working Designs voices, tho. Maybe I can help, even. It's been forever since I've done some things but I'll start looking into what I'd need to do to the audio for using it on Saturn. Could probably do a re-dub even, but the whole point of the first statement was all about getting John Truitt's voice in there, so.. :P
    Well I've successfully converted all the XSeed dub voices to the Saturn's format and gotten most of them to work. A handful don't fit in the space allotted in the ISO which means some TOC editing will need to be done most likely.

    Working Designs voices however are another matter entirely. Since they took a lot of liberties with their translation just about every voice clip is significantly longer than the corresponding Japanese version. Almost none of them fit into the space allotted in the ISO, let alone into RAM. Even trying to cut them down and cram them in and doing minor edits to the TOC doesn't seem to be an adequate solution for some as the game crashes frequently when I try as best as I can to cram them in.

    To give you an idea of how different they are, Alex's intro monologue in the Japanese and XSeed dubs is broken into 2 samples. One is 27 Seconds, the other is 2 seconds. This comes in at about 29 Seconds total. Working Designs dub however has it in 2 samples coming in at 28 seconds and 12 seconds respectively. This makes the entire monologue over 40 seconds in length. It just doesn't fit in the space allotted without some kind of hack to make more space, or cutting part of it out.

    If you want to take a crack at it though, all you need to do is extract the voices from the PS1 ISO (look up tools for extracting XA streams from a PS1 ISO, then use PSound to extract them as wav files out of the ISO). After you have the voices then just load up audacity and convert them to Mono 8-bit signed PCM at 16000Hz. Save them as a Raw Headerless 8-bit PCM sample. You can then insert them into the ISO using a tool such as ISO Buster or CD Mage.

    Saturn samples can be read by importing them as RAW as 8-bit signed Mono Big-Endian PCM at 16000Hz.
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 09-01-2017 at 12:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Well I've successfully converted all the XSeed dub voices to the Saturn's format and gotten most of them to work. A handful don't fit in the space allotted in the ISO which means some TOC editing will need to be done most likely.

    Working Designs voices however are another matter entirely. Since they took a lot of liberties with their translation just about every voice clip is significantly longer than the corresponding Japanese version. Almost none of them fit into the space allotted in the ISO, let alone into RAM. Even trying to cut them down and cram them in and doing minor edits to the TOC doesn't seem to be an adequate solution for some as the game crashes frequently when I try as best as I can to cram them in.

    To give you an idea of how different they are, Alex's intro monologue in the Japanese and XSeed dubs is broken into 2 samples. One is 27 Seconds, the other is 2 seconds. This comes in at about 29 Seconds total. Working Designs dub however has it in 2 samples coming in at 28 seconds and 12 seconds respectively. This makes the entire monologue over 40 seconds in length. It just doesn't fit in the space allotted without some kind of hack to make more space, or cutting part of it out.

    If you want to take a crack at it though, all you need to do is extract the voices from the PS1 ISO (look up tools for extracting XA streams from a PS1 ISO, then use PSound to extract them as wav files out of the ISO). After you have the voices then just load up audacity and convert them to Mono 8-bit signed PCM at 16000Hz. Save them as a Raw Headerless 8-bit PCM sample. You can then insert them into the ISO using a tool such as ISO Buster or CD Mage.

    Saturn samples can be read by importing them as RAW as 8-bit signed Mono Big-Endian PCM at 16000Hz.
    It's hard to really guess what's going on, but it sounds like part of the problem is space (due to the Saturn version being one disc)?
    If the overall file size difference isn't too much, it could be possible to downsample the audio a bit (although it's already a pretty low rate as it is)... I suppose w/o access to the source code it's not really realistic to address this in the way I suggest... may still be possible, but certainly beyond my means lol
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    It's not really an issue of Disc space. It's more of an issue of Audio RAM and the Table of Contents of the disc. The ToC is laid out that each sample is given a certain amount of space. If you go over that, most programs like CDMage wont let you actually do a file replacement. You have to modify the ToC which is a bit more involved. It's doable, but most of what I've found on the subject is aimed at the PS1.

    As for Audio RAM, the Saturn can't read compressed samples, they have to be uncompressed in Audio RAM before it can read them. It seems the most you can do is about 432KB before you go over RAM limits and crash the game. The system has 512KB of Audio RAM so I'm assuming the remaining 80 or so KB is instrument samples and the audio driver.

    I did try downsampling the audio to save space, however that ends up with hilarious results:

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    Keep up the good work. So hope to play both the Lunars and Grandia on the Saturn in English
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    It's not really an issue of Disc space. It's more of an issue of Audio RAM and the Table of Contents of the disc. The ToC is laid out that each sample is given a certain amount of space. If you go over that, most programs like CDMage wont let you actually do a file replacement. You have to modify the ToC which is a bit more involved. It's doable, but most of what I've found on the subject is aimed at the PS1.

    As for Audio RAM, the Saturn can't read compressed samples, they have to be uncompressed in Audio RAM before it can read them. It seems the most you can do is about 432KB before you go over RAM limits and crash the game. The system has 512KB of Audio RAM so I'm assuming the remaining 80 or so KB is instrument samples and the audio driver.

    I did try downsampling the audio to save space, however that ends up with hilarious results:
    I like it, should keep it. Or make a special "chipmunk" edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    I did try downsampling the audio to save space, however that ends up with hilarious results:
    Well, what I'm going to say may sound weird, but why don't you lower the pitch of the sample so that it actually sounds normal when the speed is higher (like in your example). Another option would be to hack the sound engine to work with the lower sample rate without sounding weird... which would be harder, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by netpredakonn View Post
    Well, what I'm going to say may sound weird, but why don't you lower the pitch of the sample so that it actually sounds normal when the speed is higher (like in your example). Another option would be to hack the sound engine to work with the lower sample rate without sounding weird... which would be harder, of course.
    The sample rate is already pretty low to begin with in the Saturn version. Going further it still didn't really help. Things were still cut off and didn't quite fit quite right. They barely fit into RAM but the ToC still would need to be edited. Adjusting the pitch also runs the risk of introducing new audio artifacts.

    I think the better option is to simply hack the ToC to work with the exact file sizes needed, and split the problematic samples into sizes that work better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    It's not really an issue of Disc space. It's more of an issue of Audio RAM and the Table of Contents of the disc. The ToC is laid out that each sample is given a certain amount of space. If you go over that, most programs like CDMage wont let you actually do a file replacement. You have to modify the ToC which is a bit more involved. It's doable, but most of what I've found on the subject is aimed at the PS1.

    As for Audio RAM, the Saturn can't read compressed samples, they have to be uncompressed in Audio RAM before it can read them. It seems the most you can do is about 432KB before you go over RAM limits and crash the game. The system has 512KB of Audio RAM so I'm assuming the remaining 80 or so KB is instrument samples and the audio driver.

    I did try downsampling the audio to save space, however that ends up with hilarious results:
    I think the downsampling might have been handled incorrectly. It seems to have adjusted the playback rate, rather than the sampling rate. I think the game engine is aware of the audio's sample rate being different, so it just plays it back at a faster speed as part of the conversion process (I'm explaining it horribly, probably).

    Say for example the game's dialogue is normally 18kHz, but you've changed everything to 16kHz files. The game engine/Saturn go to play this file and notice it's sample rate is 16kHz and plays it 2kHz faster to compensate, because it thinks it's supposed to play everything back at 18kHz. It may be possible to then actually make them 16kHz files but spoof/fudge it somehow to make the console think they're already 18kHz (maybe record new 16kHz files and then save them with the properties of an 18kHz file, or some other kind of techitry). Just a random idea; I may need to get my hands dirty on this one xD

    Quote Originally Posted by netpredakonn View Post
    Well, what I'm going to say may sound weird, but why don't you lower the pitch of the sample so that it actually sounds normal when the speed is higher (like in your example). Another option would be to hack the sound engine to work with the lower sample rate without sounding weird... which would be harder, of course.
    This is a great idea, actually. I do it all the time with various projects and mixes I've worked on (Studio engineer & DJ). It would require a bit of tweaking tho, as lowering the pitch will not adjust it's playback rate. There are a few ways to try to solve that, tho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhaleonX View Post
    I think the downsampling might have been handled incorrectly. It seems to have adjusted the playback rate, rather than the sampling rate. I think the game engine is aware of the audio's sample rate being different, so it just plays it back at a faster speed as part of the conversion process (I'm explaining it horribly, probably).

    Say for example the game's dialogue is normally 18kHz, but you've changed everything to 16kHz files. The game engine/Saturn go to play this file and notice it's sample rate is 16kHz and plays it 2kHz faster to compensate, because it thinks it's supposed to play everything back at 18kHz. It may be possible to then actually make them 16kHz files but spoof/fudge it somehow to make the console think they're already 18kHz (maybe record new 16kHz files and then save them with the properties of an 18kHz file, or some other kind of techitry). Just a random idea; I may need to get my hands dirty on this one xD
    I've run into this in editing other games audio over the years. Basically the sound driver is hardcoded to play them back at 16KHz. In that example I had downsampled it to 8KHz. The engine though still will play it at 16KHz so it plays it twice as fast and the audio is pitched up as well. You would need to edit the games sound playback code to make it not do that, which is a lot more work to do. Instead of trying to deal with that, I think it's more worthwhile to just do some kind of hack to adjust the game to deal with larger file sizes. All the files should be able to fit into RAM so that's not an issue. It's simply that the game is expecting files of a certain length so most tools wont let you put them into the ISO without editing the ToC first. The game probably also is expecting them at certain memory addresses which would probably be an issue if you put larger files in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhaleonX View Post
    This is a great idea, actually. I do it all the time with various projects and mixes I've worked on (Studio engineer & DJ). It would require a bit of tweaking tho, as lowering the pitch will not adjust it's playback rate. There are a few ways to try to solve that, tho.
    Slowing it down and adjusting the pitch may get it to sound right, but you will also end up with a larger file that will negate the entire purpose of downsampling it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Slowing it down and adjusting the pitch may get it to sound right, but you will also end up with a larger file that will negate the entire purpose of downsampling it.
    Haha, I thought about that after posting and wasn't positive that would be the outcome, but figured it was likely. When I've done stuff like that it was for studio use and we weren't trying to make files smaller; we were trying to achieve a particular effect, so that's the direction I was thinking at that point.

    I doubt the game needs to be hacked to allow larger file sizes, but rather it needs to be told the starting and ending memory addresses for where each audio sample is located (or something along those lines).

    Lunar: TSS on the SegaCD expects the tracks in very specific positions, even though most of the music is CDDA. If you swap the game disc for any other CD with audio tracks, it will load the music starting from the point where that track would be if the game disc were still in there. I've burned a disc with some different audio tracks (same game data, however) of Lunar:TSS and because the track lengths were different, the music was screwy, and some variations wouldn't even boot.

    This might be a simpler fix than we're thinking, as there could just be a header on the audio samples with that information, or there could be a file that has it and perhaps it can easily be edited (or it could be something totally difficult; just a guess).

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    It's not really an issue of Disc space.
    So could all of the audio from the WD translation fit onto the game disc for the Saturn version (provided the current problem is fixed)?




    ....On a side note, I think I wanna take a look at the differences in Suikoden now xD
    *EDIT* I looked. Vastly different structure, but I didn't check to see how text is stored or anything yet. Looks like the PS version is the only translated version too, so no other versions to source from :/
    Last edited by GhaleonX; 10-06-2017 at 01:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhaleonX View Post
    I doubt the game needs to be hacked to allow larger file sizes, but rather it needs to be told the starting and ending memory addresses for where each audio sample is located (or something along those lines).
    When I say hacked to allow larger file sizes, I mean specifically the CD's Table of Contents. Most ISO injection tools I've messed with wont let you put a file in larger than the original file because it will throw that table off. There are tools out there for PS1 games that can recalculate it and some for the Saturn that can kind of do it, but I didn't have much success with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhaleonX View Post
    This might be a simpler fix than we're thinking, as there could just be a header on the audio samples with that information, or there could be a file that has it and perhaps it can easily be edited (or it could be something totally difficult; just a guess).
    The audio is stored in a raw headerless 8-bit PCM file. So I don't think there's anything there to work wtih.


    Quote Originally Posted by GhaleonX View Post
    So could all of the audio from the WD translation fit onto the game disc for the Saturn version (provided the current problem is fixed)?
    It should be able to. We're talking about a variance of maybe a couple hundred KB at most. The Saturn data comesabout 617MB in size and if it was a standard 650MB disc there should be room to spare.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhaleonX View Post
    ....On a side note, I think I wanna take a look at the differences in Suikoden now xD
    *EDIT* I looked. Vastly different structure, but I didn't check to see how text is stored or anything yet. Looks like the PS version is the only translated version too, so no other versions to source from :/
    Start with the Japanese PS1 version and see how the data compares. That might give you an idea of what was changed between versions and give you a better starting point.

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    "Everybody bump!"

    What's the roadmap on the SSS patch Beta? Are bugs still getting squashed incrementally? Is it completely playable? Are you guys going to sit on the final release while still rigging it to work around the SSSC so they can both drop together?

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