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Thread: wolfenstein 3d demo for sega genesis

  1. #571
    Raging in the Streets SEGA.GENESIS1989's Avatar
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    Nah, there's nothing wrong with having a lively debate as one as everyone is being respectful to one another. Personally, I wouldn't consider it ethical purchasing a repro of this game after witnessing the work gasega68k has put into making the port possible. But really it comes down to the individual. Retro gaming has turned into a "Gotta catch 'em all" collectathon. So there are always going to be a few people looking to purchase a reproduction of a hack.
    "There's nothing to fear, except fear itself"
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    Wildside Expert willis's Avatar
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    When gasega68k posted that link, it made me cringe just for the fact I know how hard he's worked on the game. I'm in line with the others and will wait for the 'official' release that has gasega68k's name prominently displayed where it should be for his amazing work.

    Just out of curiosity, has there been any talks of gasega68k working with Piko (or anyone else) to try and make this an official release? I know Piko just got the rights to release Duke 3D so I was hoping this would be the next in line. Total long shot with Bethesda, but who knows, with it being rights for a Genesis release they may not be that brutal and give it the ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomaitheous View Post
    No one is entitled to a cart and a box they can put on their shelf. No one. If you want such a thing, do it yourself. If these guys were selling these repros at cost, then you might have a valid argument.
    Not sure this is an argument you can really make. If the ROM is free to download, I can conceivable put it on a cart, print a label and cover myself and put it in a box without creating a problem for anyone, right? What if I want to pay someone to do that for me (because I can't burn EPROMS, don't have a decent printer, whatever my reason might be...)? What if others are in the same position, and we all go to the same guy? What if the guy proactively says "hey guys, I can package this up real nice for you" and charges a small fee for his time? At which point does it go from being no problem to being a problem?

    It all boils down to how you distribute it. I imagine a lot of people assume "please don't redistribute" is the default policy for most homebrewers where others see something posted on a forum and assume they can do whatever they want with it. That's why I always explicitly ask not to redistribute demos (and I'm sure there's assholes that would ignore that as well).

  4. #574
    Blast processor Melf's Avatar
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    Personally, I'll wait to see if gasega68k does a cart release. I think he deserves credit for his incredible work here. I'd love it if he and Piko or Watermelon could score the rights and make an official one. I think Bethesda might be impressed that he got the whole thing running on a stock Genesis! Until then, I'll stick with what he releases and play on my Mega Everdrive.

  5. #575
    16-bits is all he needs Master of Shinobi matteus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMole View Post
    Not sure this is an argument you can really make. If the ROM is free to download, I can conceivable put it on a cart, print a label and cover myself and put it in a box without creating a problem for anyone, right? What if I want to pay someone to do that for me (because I can't burn EPROMS, don't have a decent printer, whatever my reason might be...)? What if others are in the same position, and we all go to the same guy? What if the guy proactively says "hey guys, I can package this up real nice for you" and charges a small fee for his time? At which point does it go from being no problem to being a problem?

    It all boils down to how you distribute it. I imagine a lot of people assume "please don't redistribute" is the default policy for most homebrewers where others see something posted on a forum and assume they can do whatever they want with it. That's why I always explicitly ask not to redistribute demos (and I'm sure there's assholes that would ignore that as well).
    His argument is totally valid it's what most people call stealing! Just because someone shares their work with you that doesn't entitle you to go off and sell it. In the same way the source code for Quake being released doesn't entitle me to compile it, package it up and sell it on CD.
    Last edited by matteus; 11-06-2015 at 01:24 PM.


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    Paradroid Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One 001's Avatar
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    You're gonna aggravate them pirates with terms like stealing. Arrrr... haha!

    Nah, it's really simple: gasega68k most probably used the open wolf3d source. If this is the case, its license defines what you can or cannot do with the code. Commercial distribution, such as a for profit cart is a no go, as it seems. Distribution for edu purposes is ok.

    Porting it to the Megadrive is awesome nonetheless. Regardless of any immorality we see, people tend to get what they want. So an official release would be awesome for people that want the hard copy. Tbh, I don't think its that undoable if one can find the right people to talk to.

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    16-bits is all he needs Master of Shinobi matteus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 001 View Post
    You're gonna aggravate them pirates with terms like stealing. Arrrr... haha!

    Nah, it's really simple: gasega68k most probably used the open wolf3d source. If this is the case, its license defines what you can or cannot do with the code. Commercial distribution, such as a for profit cart is a no go, as it seems. Distribution for edu purposes is ok.

    Porting it to the Megadrive is awesome nonetheless. Regardless of any immorality we see, people tend to get what they want. So an official release would be awesome for people that want the hard copy. Tbh, I don't think its that undoable if one can find the right people to talk to.
    I wasn't referring to gasega68k I was referring to the guy who put his port on a cart


  8. #578
    ding-doaw Raging in the Streets tomaitheous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMole View Post
    Not sure this is an argument you can really make. If the ROM is free to download, I can conceivable put it on a cart, print a label and cover myself and put it in a box without creating a problem for anyone, right? What if I want to pay someone to do that for me (because I can't burn EPROMS, don't have a decent printer, whatever my reason might be...)? What if others are in the same position, and we all go to the same guy? What if the guy proactively says "hey guys, I can package this up real nice for you" and charges a small fee for his time? At which point does it go from being no problem to being a problem?
    That's why I hedged the end of that statement with might. Because just as you described, it becomes harder to define that line. Well, for some I'm sure it doesn't (going either way).

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    Quote Originally Posted by matteus View Post
    I wasn't referring to gasega68k I was referring to the guy who put his port on a cart
    Oh, wasn't implying that you were! In his case he's redistributing a binary found on the net with no license attached. In other words: "Can't do shit, legally, with it."

    (That guy is selling carts at uniform price, so I bet his logic was 0 cost on the binary itself. Won't fly with the wolf 3d license even if gasega68k was ok with it, dunno about the other games he's selling. It looks like he took wolfenstein down and lowered prices. Wasn't it 30ish before? Anyway, ironically, linking to his site from here was probably the best thing one could do to help his sales. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by matteus View Post
    His argument is totally valid it's what most people call stealing! Just because someone shares their work with you that doesn't entitle you to go off and sell it. In the same way the source code for Quake being released doesn't entitle me to compile it, package it up and sell it on CD.
    The Quake source code is released under the GPL license, and thus you are completely free and even encouraged to distribute it in any way you see fit as long as you open source any modifications you've made as well. And yes, that includes putting it on a CD and selling it (although it wouldn't be worth much if you distribute it without the artwork).

    And no, copying is not stealing, if I copy the Mona Lisa the original will still be in the Louvre.

    But neither of these address my argument (which tomaitheous did), so let me ask you this: if I download the binary and pay someone to burn a cart, print a manual, etc... for me, am I or the person doing the work doing something wrong?

  11. #581
    16-bits is all he needs Master of Shinobi matteus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMole View Post
    The Quake source code is released under the GPL license, and thus you are completely free and even encouraged to distribute it in any way you see fit as long as you open source any modifications you've made as well. And yes, that includes putting it on a CD and selling it (although it wouldn't be worth much if you distribute it without the artwork).

    And no, copying is not stealing, if I copy the Mona Lisa the original will still be in the Louvre.

    But neither of these address my argument (which tomaitheous did), so let me ask you this: if I download the binary and pay someone to burn a cart, print a manual, etc... for me, am I or the person doing the work doing something wrong?
    Okay I'm just going to agree to disagree with you smart arse. If you think it's fine to put someone like gasega68k's work onto a cartridge without asking with the motive to sell it at profit then that's your prerogative. It sucks but it's yours! I don't have issues with people burning to their own cart for their own use, printing, etc. Profiting from it tho that's a no no.
    Last edited by matteus; 11-07-2015 at 09:44 AM.


  12. #582
    Wildside Expert gasega68k's Avatar
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    I have to thank Retrospiel, Tomaitheous, Barone, BladeJunker, Gordman, Wills, Melf, Matteus, 001 ... and many others who have given their opinion on this.
    Really what I dislike about it is not that they make money from this, it is rather that they have done so without asking, and also with a still unfinished version.

    And on a "official" cart release, I've been talking to someone (who is a member of sega-16 from several years ago) on the feasibility of a physical version of Wolf3D, and if all goes well I think it will be possible . I think people deserve a proper cart release.

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    Wildside Expert willis's Avatar
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    I'm behind you 100% gasega68k! I know how much work/effort you are putting into this and you deserve all the praise and recognition. It is extremely cool to see that you've been talking to someone for a physical release.

    Have you come to a decision on whether or not spear of destiny will be included as well? You've come this far, might as well cram that cartridge full.....

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    Blast processor Melf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMole View Post
    And no, copying is not stealing, if I copy the Mona Lisa the original will still be in the Louvre.
    If you're profiting off the copy and taking money that would otherwise go to the Louvre, particularly without permission, then you are indeed stealing.

    But neither of these address my argument (which tomaitheous did), so let me ask you this: if I download the binary and pay someone to burn a cart, print a manual, etc... for me, am I or the person doing the work doing something wrong?
    Technically, both of you are. You're enabling piracy, the same as the person who hosts ROMs on a server and charges people to download them. That being said, this is more of an ethical problem than a legal one, since so few companies have clamped down on repro makers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gasega68k View Post
    I have to thank Retrospiel, Tomaitheous, Barone, BladeJunker, Gordman, Wills, Melf, Matteus, 001 ... and many others who have given their opinion on this.
    Really what I dislike about it is not that they make money from this, it is rather that they have done so without asking, and also with a still unfinished version.

    And on a "official" cart release, I've been talking to someone (who is a member of sega-16 from several years ago) on the feasibility of a physical version of Wolf3D, and if all goes well I think it will be possible . I think people deserve a proper cart release.
    Does that include me, in your opinion?
    I got a custom cart with the v11 rom for my personal amusement, (from a factory that'll flash any rom on a cart by request). I'm not selling it, and your name is on the cart .
    I got it because I believe it should be played on a real console, and a flashcart isn't an option because I got the games I want already and a flashcart wouldn't be justifiable just for this one (however awesome) game.
    Basically, I'm trying to say that I don't think it's wrong to make carts, of freeware roms, for personal use.
    And that I'm, obviously, very grateful for the amazing work done by you, gasega68k.





    Quote Originally Posted by Melf View Post
    If you're profiting off the copy and taking money that would otherwise go to the Louvre, particularly without permission, then you are indeed stealing..
    Only an ignorant person would buy a copy of that painting believing it to be the original. And that person wouldn't appreciate it anyway. Normally you're fully aware that you're buying a copy. And a person who's either that ignorant or who's aware either - wouldn't go to the Louvre anyway, or - they will go to the Louvre anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melf View Post
    Technically, both of you are. You're enabling piracy, the same as the person who hosts ROMs on a server and charges people to download them. That being said, this is more of an ethical problem than a legal one, since so few companies have clamped down on repro makers.
    That is a really bad example. That site is specifically distributing illegal content for profit (and they got it for free).
    A cart maker doesn't specifically distribute pirated material, he just makes carts. It's like saying cd-r manufacturers are to blame for piracy. Or like saying knifes are responsible for stabbings. They're not.
    And, unlike the paid rom site, the cart maker is putting in somekind of effort and doing actual work.
    Technically, TheMole wouldn't be doing anything wrong by getting a custom cart. Illegal, maybe, if it's a copy of a commercial game. Right and wrong are both highly subjective concepts, however.
    Now, as for getting a custom cart for an unofficial, homebrew, rom that can only be obtained in rom form, for private use - this can't be considered wrong by anyone who's morals haven't been practicing the age old tradition of inbreeding for the last two centuries. You're not selling it, you're not stealing the credit for it, you're doing it for you so you can play it.
    Anyone who says "use a flashcart instead" is, to put it mildly, not being very honest.
    Because there's no way there's a flashcart owner who doesn't have or hasn't had illegally downloaded roms on it. IMHO
    Last edited by bagmahnutz; 11-07-2015 at 03:48 PM.

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