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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Just for the record, again, Trekkies and his sometimes allies misrepresented everything I wrote and this group allowed it. What I was doing is trying to inspire work like this thread has actually produced. I knew my generalization would draw the opine generators and rabid fanboys into a fight, and it did. What I did not expect was the entire group to slavishly follow a few loud mouthed, entitled, self lovers instead of reading for themselves.
    We didn't misrepresent anything. We simply pointed out your arguments were BS and didn't add up with actual evidence. You refused to accept this and threw fits. The same kind of evidence that's coming out here is the same kind of evidence we brought up years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    The entire generation had games that floated around 1 million polygons per second, that nobody marked down in reviews or forums for doing.
    This isn't what you said. You said the entire generation was hovering around 1 Million polygons per second, implying all games were doing that. That wasn't the case and didn't stand up to scrutiny. When we brought that up you refused to acknowledge it and threw hissy fits. The point was as time went on polygon counts started going up, and by say 2004/2005 games were getting ripped apart for low polygon counts. PS2 Resident Evil 4 is a prime example of it. The game was roasted for the significant drop in detail and effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    YOU ran me off this forum with your false faced sometimes allies by misrepresenting that statement into what you have stated again, nearly a decade later. I had hoped that among your many lies you were actually just a 14yr old that grew up and started thinking more honestly. I guess that was my truest mistake.
    We didn't run you off the forum. You left when one of your massive piles of bullshit was too big to ignore by most of the forum. That was in this thread when you tried to claim Sega never tried to do anything sleazy with licensing third parties:

    https://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...s-than-Genesis

    When we brought up tons of historical evidence including court documents showing that wasn't true, you threw a massive fit, started personally attacking people and then left.


    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    I don't need you to remind me about how graphics work. Actually nobody in this group needs that. You substance abusing opine generators and fact obfuscaters have reiterated the same exact things so many times you don't even care that you never prove anything. Sega-16 is not a real place, I have never been invested in this group or any other because it is all made up fantasy reiterated. You and the others did run me off, you know the forum rules, the moderators and the group just couldn't be bothered to read well enough to see you were breaking them.

    But I have to thank you all once again. Not only for coming around and doing your own research proving the points I made on GP decades ago with even more evidence. But also for killing any hope I had in humanity wanting to learn with any intellectual integrity, internal consistency, or a desire to accurately reflect reality. It made walking away easy, so don't worry. I'm not going to come back to you safe place and attempt to show you for what you are.

    I'm also glad to see that some of the members here and elsewhere online see that Usenet is a treasure trove of primary sources, and that even Trekkies admits that NeoGaf is wrong all the time. Solid improvements despite the instrinsic problems of this place.
    You're so delusional you don't even realize the posts in this thread are proving your arguments from years ago were in fact BS. Seriously, go get help.

  2. #3467
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reminder. The group also forgot that the overlords have declared Sega had a worse licensing contract than Nintendo, strongarmed Developers into being exclusive to their platform, never gave their own games out to third party developers of other platforms, and would have monopolized and practiced the same anti competitive tactics that Sony or Nintendo did (when they can admit it) if they ever had the money and clout to do so. Even in writing this out I see the internal contradictions, but no worries. Trekkies is definitely right, Sega was worse than Nintendo. I don't want to be delusional any more. Somebody help me to stop seeing the libraries as they actually are, and start seeing them as what Trekkies describes!
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, .... would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

    "Sega tried to have similarly strict licensing agreements as Nintendo...The only reason it didn't take off was because EA..." TrekkiesUnite

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Thanks for the reminder. The group also forgot that the overlords have declared Sega had a worse licensing contract than Nintendo, strongarmed Developers into being exclusive to their platform, never gave their own games out to third party developers of other platforms, and would have monopolized and practiced the same anti competitive tactics that Sony or Nintendo did (when they can admit it) if they ever had the money and clout to do so. Even in writing this out I see the internal contradictions, but no worries. Trekkies is definitely right, Sega was worse than Nintendo. I don't want to be delusional any more. Somebody help me to stop seeing the libraries as they actually are, and start seeing them as what Trekkies describes!
    I see you're also still completely mentally unstable. How unfortunate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Neogaf How much more powerful was the N64 compared to the PlayStation anyway?

    users extracted the polygonal models, and in fact the N64 pushes less polygons this is true for simple games but not true for the other more complex games.

    I brought this example to show how different polygons per second and polygons per frame are
    Let's hear the numbers.

    Toshiden 95 pushes 3k poly on the frame because of that it does 30fps or 90k poly per second.
    Hardcore 4x4 follows the same example, almost 3k per frame at unstable 20~30fps. Saturn 10~20fps
    Tobal 1 120k pps 2k per frame 512x480
    Tobal 2, tekken 3 90k pps less 2k per frame why ? better textures, lighting effects etc

    Tobal 1 pushes more polygons (2k per frame at 60fps) than its sequel Tobal 2 (1.4k at 60fps) this is because the second game has improved effects and textures.

    There is this relation between texture, polygonal frame count and frame rate.

    Rush 2049, WDC, Rayman 2, Mace the dark age, NFL etc

    t doesn't take much effort to see that the N64 puts more polygons in the frame, fingers etc just watch the cutscenes in real time most of them go over the 3k (Turok 2) mark and again the ps1 average is 2k per frame with peaks of 3k, many ps1 games using artistic techniques manage to give the ilusion higher polygonal count than the average as is the case of Crash Bandicoot.

    That's the issue, dreamcast simply produce low frame rate as the frame fills up with polygons, just like the N64.Many numbers that Clofoo gets is ''forcing'' the engine to a peak, see in DOA2 it uses tag mode and captures the polygon count at the exact moment the third char enters the screen, that doesn't mean that in an eventual future game that peak number becomes the average. It's unrealistic to think about it that way imo.
    You just change things to suit your narrative , 20k to 30k is 2 fighters. Peak is indeed 3 fighter tag move for around 35k, you might not like it but its replicatable over and over right after the other but ill humor you . 25k to 30k is a realistic 60 fps number high end games could have run in the future if other companies optimized as much as team ninja did who ran the game with 3 lights which is something youre omitting. ( 1 per char and 1 for the stage). Also you do disservice to doa2 who besides that using ik physics on limbs/hair/ cloth sim. I dont know about tekken tag whos half the polygon count character wise( ill post a shot just for you) but vf4 sega admitted they removed ik on body and its only enabled on draping hair or clothes after they had it in vf3. All the while being around 2k to 3k less than doa2.

    Those materials you think you see in sc2,sc3, ttt, tekken4,5 are simply environment maps with different texture look to imitate the look of different clothing/skin/armor speculars. Which mind you they got rid of when porting tekken 5 to psp. That also leads me to my next point. Tekken 5 psp illustrated how these ports could have taken place. The stage with crowds was reduced to handful models and the rest as 2d billboards. All the post process gone, polygons heavily reduced and texture quality below ps2 quality and lighting removed mostly. Using jcpsp emulatot( only emulator with built in scene dumper) show that tekken 5 psp runs around 10k tris to 20k. Same thing could've happen with dc multiplatform, reduce detail or framerate , keep multitexturing to a minimum. Will it look different? Yes but as long as it preserves core gameplay. Again it doesnt have to be 100% of ps2 version, as long as it preserves the gameplay and keeps most of the model detail even if it loses lighting quality.

    Heres a few ps2 polycounts from models extracted from assets. Enjoy.

    Tekken tag tournament ps2


    Tekken 5 ps2


    Tekken 5 psp scene captured using emulator dump function


    Vf4 ps2


    Bloodyroar 3 ps2


    Taki sc2


    Sc2 village of wind.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 08-16-2022 at 01:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Extracted models don't tell you everything. Let's take a look at something like Ocarnia of time. It runs at 20fps. Looking at extracted models it looks like Link's high detail model is 750ish polygons, his low detail model is about 375ish Polygons. Hyrule Field looks to be about 1500 Polygons. Now, you can't just add these numbers up and go "Ok in Hyrule Field N64 is pushing 2250 Polygons per frame at 20fps", that's not accurate. Just because the models have that many polygons doesn't mean that many polygons are being drawn on screen at a given time. When we factor in culling, we can assume Link's model is probably only drawing about 1/2-2/3 of it's polygons. Hyrule field if you look at it is made up of very large polygons

    So the real take away here is that PS1/Saturn and N64 handle polygons very differently. A model that works on N64 will not work well on PS1/Saturn. On PS1/Saturn you need to use smaller polygons as things get closer to the camera to avoid texture warping and what not, while on N64 you can use large polygons without issue. And then the other bit you don't get told with just looking at models is dynamic subdivision. Having a bunch of LOD models in RAM takes up space, but if you do subdivision in your engine you can get a similar benefit without wasting RAM. You can see some games doing just this on PS1, Saturn, etc. Those kind of polygon counts will not show up in the extracted models.
    there are examples, of assets captured and extracted, using the same games on both consoles
    Fighting forces: PS1- 3.024 per frame Nintendo 64 - 3.706
    Mortal Kombat 4: PS1 -881 per frame Nintendo 64 - 1.666 60fps yeh it's below Tobal 1

    but when we use exclusive games like Fighter Destiny it pushes 2k per frame and Mace the Dark Age both seen from the player's perspective exceeds 4k per frame but they are 20~30fps games. But what's the point? the point is that it looks nicer to have a higher polygon count per frame this is in my opinion what matters when talking about polygons , just like WDC does, Rush 2049 does, Naboo does. However I want to make it clear that I prefer the ps1 and saturn visuals, colors etc despite the lower polygon count in the frame.

    that's why I believe that the Dreamcast should be compared with itself and not with the later consoles because the difference is very big.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    DC on a chip is not the same thing. It was 2X as powerful as DC. So it's not just a simple revision.
    Maybe it was different, but looking to put the DC main hardware on a single chip (SOC) isn't a simple revision I just remember the talk of it from Naka-san as the sign of the end of the DC and then talk of SEGA doing various deals to make other boxes have the Dreamcast hardware, including the OG XBox and I'm almost sure than was confirmed by the late great Okawa-san. I'm almost sure it was linked on Dreamcast technical pages at the time
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    If the guy says that with 1M you can make a sixth generation game, I agree and go further, I say that with 300k it is already possible to make a sixth generation game, but to say that the PS2, GC, XB generation was making games on the threshold of 1M, unfortunately not. Even ps2 launch games from 2000 through June 2001 were pushing much more than 1M.(F1 as exemple)

    Perhaps if the conversation is to say that it is possible to reduce a game from 3M to 800k, it could be a point. But I have my doubts to what extent a game can be reduced without losing its essence. there is a huge gap between the fifth generation and dreamcast and an equally huge gap between dreamcast and later consoles imo.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-16-2022 at 02:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    If the guy says that with 1M you can make a sixth generation game, I agree and go further, I say that with 300k it is already possible to make a sixth generation game, but to say that the PS2, GC, XB generation was making games on the threshold of 1M, unfortunately not. Even ps2 launch games from 2000 through June 2001 were pushing much more than 1M.(F1 as exemple)

    Perhaps if the conversation is to say that it is possible to reduce a game from 3M to 800k, it could be a point. But I have my doubts to what extent a game can be reduced without losing its essence. there is a huge gap between the fifth generation and dreamcast and an equally huge gap between dreamcast and later consoles imo.
    I just showed you tekken5 psp running 720k tris per second at 60 fps. ( 12k per frame) . Did it lose its essence? Most people who played cant even differentiate so no. As long as the core experience is there. You just grasping as straws now.

    And at 30 fps it seems to give it enough time resolve a more complex game while still maintaining high polygon counts. I mean you ignore stuff like shenmue 1 and 2 at your convenience which are obviously cpu taxing and still maintain high amount of detail. And i personally hate those games.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 08-16-2022 at 03:05 PM.

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    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    Why even quote AMD? It's a total waste of time.

    Life?!...What console is that on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    there are examples, of assets captured and extracted, using the same games on both consoles
    Fighting forces: PS1- 3.024 per frame Nintendo 64 - 3.706
    Mortal Kombat 4: PS1 -881 per frame Nintendo 64 - 1.666 60fps yeh it's below Tobal 1
    I'm going to call BS on this. When I do a 3D screenshot in emulators I get about 800 polygons per frame in MK4 on PS1 sure, but this is with severe corruption issues in blender and I'd say at least half the polygons are missing. Especially when compared to the wireframe shot I'm seeing in the emulator itself. So I'd be willing to bet if we had the actual models extracted we'd see the PS1 models are actually pretty high poly for the time.

    Now if you want to see what PS1 is capable of when trying to mimic an N64 game, here's what the homebrew community has pulled off so far:
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-16-2022 at 03:17 PM.

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    Yeah youre right. All its doing is scattering the extraction info among a bunch of nonsense. Ill just add to ignore again and focus on extracting stuff. Theres actually alot i didnt post here but posted somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Yeah youre right. All its doing is scattering the extraction info among a bunch of nonsense. Ill just add to ignore again and focus on extracting stuff. Theres actually alot i didnt post here but posted somewhere else.
    Maybe make a new thread or something that's just what you've extracted so far and ask the mods to keep it clean. It's pretty painful having to sift through all the muck from SegaAMD, TA, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Maybe make a new thread or something that's just what you've extracted so far and ask the mods to keep it clean. It's pretty painful having to sift through all the muck from SegaAMD, TA, etc.
    Thats the best suggestion ive heard. Thanks for the idea. I ll probably go through all the extracts i did from assets only. Ive done gamecube ps2 dc psp. Metal gear solid series among other things thst people would find interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Thats the best suggestion ive heard. Thanks for the idea. I ll probably go through all the extracts i did from assets only. Ive done gamecube ps2 dc psp. Metal gear solid series among other things thst people would find interesting.
    F-Zero GX would be nice. From what I've seen from extracted models on different sites, it appears that the models for the tracks + track scenery come to ~65k Polygons, the vehicle + character models look to be about 1500-2000 each as well. Which with 30 of those on screen I was getting about 45-60k. So that would put it to around 105k-130k for all of that combined. Which I'd assume with culling we'd be seeing about 1/2-2/3 of that on screen. So that would be around 65-85k Polygons per frame which seems to be around what I saw in Dolphin years ago. It'd be nice to see if that holds true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    F-Zero GX would be nice. From what I've seen from extracted models on different sites, it appears that the models for the tracks + track scenery come to ~65k Polygons, the vehicle + character models look to be about 1500-2000 each as well. Which with 30 of those on screen I was getting about 45-60k. So that would put it to around 105k-130k for all of that combined. Which I'd assume with culling we'd be seeing about 1/2-2/3 of that on screen. So that would be around 65-85k Polygons per frame which seems to be around what I saw in Dolphin years ago. It'd be nice to see if that holds true.
    It wasnt in sights but thats a good suggestion. Ill definitely look into it considering its a amusement vision game. And theres tools built for it.

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