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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I never said this game was wince. Only game I mentioned that was is card captor sakura and half life. I'll add more model examples so you can compare. That way it will leave no doubt of we do two or three samples.
    Good idea, I'll get to work on my own Blue Stinger polycounts.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Dunno if you saw what I said about your ready 2 rumble comparison but ill quote it. Regardless it was well done.
    EDit : on the ready to rumble comparison the enhancement makes it a little prettier on the ps2 ,especially the better color depth of the framebuffer. Otherwise its still lack luster overall that even with enhancements there dc games that have done specular highlights and shadows , theres no real reason why it wasnt present on the dc version.
    Now here are some samples you can use, I will note where you can find them as well.These are all assets files from disc that we can compare to your emulator rips for accuracy.

    Kou from Death crimson OX -6,600 tris - you can find him in cutscenes in the intro and any cutscene in the game.


    Elephant beast from Zusar vasar - 7,500 tris - this is the highest lod of the creature and can only be seen during replays after the race is done and as long as its the players beast.


    The light leader from Magic the gathering - 4,300 tris - Right after you pick your deck and leave town go to the light civilization and there she is.


    Emperor beld from record of lodoss war - 1,700 tris - as soon as you start the game he spawns naked.

  3. #2928
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    A couple more multiquotes

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Yharnamresident come on we are waiting for your comparatives, this topic is kind of stopped maybe the comparatives is a good idea.
    Don't worry I got tons of content planned for April and May, my Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 comparison is finally posted on the last page.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    ps2 hardware has many possibilities and the result is there for those who want to see, and not only there cause Dreamcast and the ps2 have more than 30 games in common, in most ps2 textures match the dreamcast (quake 3 revolution) and in other cases it surpasses it (as in 18 wheeler apt) in other cases the assets are modified, at the end of the day ps2 version is better overall. I can't understand why dreamcast fans don't accept this, since the console is an older tech.
    The Dreamcast is older technology, that means its overall less powerful than the PS2, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have any advantages over PS2. This is very typical with consoles released around the same time(in this case late 90s early 2000s).

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it is interesting that you speak of 16 bits of textures as being a dreamcast advantage and in fact it is, but we already know how it works because most of the best dreamcast games are on ps2 with very small differences in textures and in some cases the deamcast loses as in nfl 2k2, nba 2k2, wacky races, 18 wheeler, unreal tournament, in my next post I will post examples of textures of which I have seen on ps2 and never seen anything like it on the dreamcast
    What you gotta consider is that no one thinks of textures as a PS2 strength. When people talk about PS2 strengths its always polycounts, shadows, bandwidth, frame buffer effects. They never mention textures.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    EDit : on the ready to rumble comparison the enhancement makes it a little prettier on the ps2 ,especially the better color depth of the framebuffer. Otherwise its still lack luster overall that even with enhancements there dc games that have done specular highlights and shadows , theres no real reason why it wasnt present on the dc version.
    Yes they definitely put more effort into the PS2 version, and its not hard to figure out why(it was a launch game for the PS2).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Dunno if you saw what I said about your ready 2 rumble comparison but ill quote it. Regardless it was well done.
    Appreciate it.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it is interesting that you speak of 16 bits of textures as being a dreamcast advantage and in fact it is, but we already know how it works because most of the best dreamcast games are on ps2 with very small differences in textures and in some cases the deamcast loses as in nfl 2k2, nba 2k2, wacky races, 18 wheeler, unreal tournament, in my next post I will post examples of textures of which I have seen on ps2 and never seen anything like it on the dreamcast
    What you gotta consider is that no one thinks of textures as a PS2 strength. When people talk about PS2 strengths its always polycounts, shadows, bandwidth, frame buffer effects. They never mention textures.
    Textures are a strength on the ps2 just not the same way as the dreamcast. The ps2 likes to redraw things over and over. It might not have big textures maps with high color depths like the dreamcast but it makes use of using alot of tiny low color depth textures to make alot of cool multi texture effects / screen overlays. If you look on the transformer ps2 screen shot you can see what I mean with the environment maps and soul calibur 2 uses tiny tiny environment maps to make clothes look like silk and make shiny clothes design that have a seperate brilliance compared to the rest of the clothes. That is its strength. Then multiple copies of the screen for motion blur/depth of field/ bloom. Sega amd is just stuck not understanding this though. Some times they even break up textures to tiny bits then re assemble to make a bigger texture, ps2 just works weird.

    Btw I hope the examples above of the disc assets arent to hard for your to acquire .

  5. #2930
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Textures are a strength on the ps2 just not the same way as the dreamcast. The ps2 likes to redraw things over and over. It might not have big textures maps with high color depths like the dreamcast but it makes use of using alot of tiny low color depth textures to make alot of cool multi texture effects / screen overlays. If you look on the transformer ps2 screen shot you can see what I mean with the environment maps and soul calibur 2 uses tiny tiny environment maps to make clothes look like silk and make shiny clothes design that have a seperate brilliance compared to the rest of the clothes. That is its strength. Then multiple copies of the screen for motion blur/depth of field/ bloom. Sega amd is just stuck not understanding this though. Some times they even break up textures to tiny bits then re assemble to make a bigger texture, ps2 just works weird.

    Btw I hope the examples above of the disc assets arent to hard for your to acquire .
    I don't disagree about multi-texturing but thats textures in a broad term. I mean just regular textures like these road textures in F355 Challenge 3rd Person Mode:





    Anyways I'll get to work on what you said.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    I want to talk about textures, not only at a technical level but based on practical results according to the theory, the textures on the ps2 were not supposed to be better than the dreamcast in the games I mentioned but they are.

    after the realease of the xbox, clung to the idea that the textures of the ps2 are bad. ok xbox is another league, but then dreamcast fans started this idea that dreamcast graphics are superior to ps2 based on texture and resolution, everyone knows that god of war 2 is a nice graphic, but we have to read in the forums that sword of the bersek looks better.

    these are myths that have perpetuated, for instance idea that all dreamcast / ps2 games are better on dreamcast. that is not true.


    there are four negative points about textures and ps2 games. that are not necessarily true in all games.

    the first- low resolution, shimmering, jaggies
    the second- opaque and unsharp look
    the third- flat, greyish and greenish textures.
    the fourth- no shader capabilities.

    the ps2 has over 4 thousand games are they all greenish and grayish? of course not.

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    480p; the dreamcast in fact operate locked at 640x480, on ps2 we find several resolutions, the main one being 512x448 and 640x448, ps2 doesn’t make ''480'', this is linked to limitations of the device, but there is no distortion of the image what happens is that the ps2 has a little cut of 30 lines .

    see;

    https://insidermedia.ign.com/insider...640&height=480


    in Half life even the ps2 operates at 448p but due to the superior textures the look is much better. this is repeated in several games including bournout 2 above.

    the dreamcast also has shimmering in shenmue 2, MSR maybe in others, gcn hast too. although the dreamcast has 640x480p resolution locked, gcn for example does not, there are games with less resolution than PS2, resolutions like 512x448 are also found in gcn.

    about the vgabox, ps2 has blaze adaptor, opl, gsm that forces the progressive scan in ps2 games, with the advantage of being able to use on big screens, vga box is more for small monitors although some TVs have vga support

    then i will post some screens, to observe only the textures, some of the dreamcast of the games Max steel, sonic adv 2, shenmue 2, msr and others, so I will also post some screens of native ps2 games so it will be easier to notice that textures aren't flat. Many games with flat textures are low budget, others because devs choice and others because that was the path that graphic technology followed.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 04-03-2020 at 10:52 PM.

  8. #2933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I don't disagree about multi-texturing but thats textures in a broad term. I mean just regular textures like these road textures in F355 Challenge 3rd

    Anyways I'll get to work on what you said.
    I know you wanted me to get on airforce delta but that ones next. For now iam working on seventh cross evolution disc assets. The game has rather shocking graphics especially when taken into account it came out on 1998.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    480p; the dreamcast in fact operate locked at 640x480, on ps2 we find several resolutions, the main one being 512x448 and 640x448, ps2 doesn’t make ''480'', this is linked to limitations of the device, but there is no distortion of the image what happens is that the ps2 has a little cut of 30 lines .

    see;

    https://insidermedia.ign.com/insider...640&height=480


    in Half life even the ps2 operates at 448p but due to the superior textures the look is much better. this is repeated in several games including bournout 2 above.

    the dreamcast also has shimmering in shenmue 2, MSR maybe in others, gcn hast too. although the dreamcast has 640x480p resolution locked, gcn for example does not, there are games with less resolution than PS2, resolutions like 512x448 are also found in gcn.

    about the vgabox, ps2 has blaze adaptor, opl, gsm that forces the progressive scan in ps2 games, with the advantage of being able to use on big screens, vga box is more for small monitors although some TVs have vga support

    then i will post some screens, to observe only the textures, some of the dreamcast of the games Max steel, sonic adv 2, shenmue 2, msr and others, so I will also post some screens of native ps2 games so it will be easier to notice that textures aren't flat. Many games with flat textures are low budget, others because devs choice and others because that was the path that graphic technology followed.
    SegaAMD I'll post something for you tonight regarding progressive scan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I know you wanted me to get on airforce delta but that ones next. For now iam working on seventh cross evolution disc assets. The game has rather shocking graphics especially when taken into account it came out on 1998.
    Well even though its only been 2 days, I still haven't gotten to work on Blue Stinger but that should be tonight.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    SegaAMD I'll post something for you tonight regarding progressive scan.


    Well even though its only been 2 days, I still haven't gotten to work on Blue Stinger but that should be tonight.
    In my case i got all the screen shots done but ill be busy till early morning( 1am maybe). So cant post my findings on this games assets.

  11. #2936
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    after the realease of the xbox, clung to the idea that the textures of the ps2 are bad. ok xbox is another league, but then dreamcast fans started this idea that dreamcast graphics are superior to ps2 based on texture and resolution, everyone knows that god of war 2 is a nice graphic, but we have to read in the forums that sword of the bersek looks better.
    I don't know anyone who would think that, its simply impossible since God of War II is 7 years newer. Also not only does God of War II run in progressive scan, it can also run in full-frame buffer and 16:9. Now of course Tokyo Xtreme Racer 2 was already doing this in 2000, but its an example of the PS2 getting past its achilles heels.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    480p; the dreamcast in fact operate locked at 640x480, on ps2 we find several resolutions, the main one being 512x448 and 640x448, ps2 doesn’t make ''480'', this is linked to limitations of the device, but there is no distortion of the image what happens is that the ps2 has a little cut of 30 lines .

    see;

    https://insidermedia.ign.com/insider...640&height=480


    in Half life even the ps2 operates at 448p but due to the superior textures the look is much better. this is repeated in several games including bournout 2 above.

    the dreamcast also has shimmering in shenmue 2, MSR maybe in others, gcn hast too. although the dreamcast has 640x480p resolution locked, gcn for example does not, there are games with less resolution than PS2, resolutions like 512x448 are also found in gcn.

    about the vgabox, ps2 has blaze adaptor, opl, gsm that forces the progressive scan in ps2 games, with the advantage of being able to use on big screens, vga box is more for small monitors although some TVs have vga support

    then i will post some screens, to observe only the textures, some of the dreamcast of the games Max steel, sonic adv 2, shenmue 2, msr and others, so I will also post some screens of native ps2 games so it will be easier to notice that textures aren't flat. Many games with flat textures are low budget, others because devs choice and others because that was the path that graphic technology followed.
    The PS2 does look good in progression scan, the problem is this is very rare. But let me show you an example.

    This is Ratchet and Clank 3. They got this running in 480p even though it likely hits 125,000 polygons.





    480p:



    480i:



    480p:

    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  12. #2937
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets Leynos's Avatar
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    Not talking PPS here. Does anyone have side by side comparisons of towns and dungeons of Grandia II from DC to PS2? Not interested in PC or modern port comparisons. Mainly interested in textures.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?



    [PSN] Segata-S //[Switch] FC-SW 3892 5228 2895 //[XBL]Dogi99


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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    I finally got interested in Blue Stinger since I found out its not a WindowsCE game:



    Its also a Dreamcast game in the PS2's by far strongest genre(action-adventure).






    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Not talking PPS here. Does anyone have side by side comparisons of towns and dungeons of Grandia II from DC to PS2? Not interested in PC or modern port comparisons. Mainly interested in textures.
    Maybe Cloofoofoo has you covered, I already got a huge backlog of projects.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I finally got interested in Blue Stinger since I found out its not a WindowsCE game:



    Its also a Dreamcast game in the PS2's by far strongest genre(action-adventure).






    Maybe Cloofoofoo has you covered, I already got a huge backlog of projects.

    Ehhh I cant promise that anytime soon. grandia 2 has alot of asset files. Its gonna be a while before I go digging there again. But yes it would be interesting to see how it stacks up since the dc version uses huge texture maps like i checked.

    Blue stinger is one of my favorites. The characters are more detailed than what some people think, ill post some shots below of the assets on disc.triangle count its on par with some earlier ps2 game triangle counts for characters. Btw I found 2 games that stored stages bigger than skies of arcadia 50K tris stage. Under defeat and borderdown have stages that are 80K tris. Thats probably a huge amount of polygon to store in ram considering that in borderdown some bosses are close 9k tris.

    Blue stinger:




  15. #2940
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    So I did some IGN research before bed.

    https://ca.ign.com/articles/2001/10/31/soul-reaver-2-3

    Raziel comprises a whopping 3,000 polygons (he was made up of 300 polys in the PS version), and features moving eyes, several kinds of facial features, and the kind of detail to his wretched body that has never seen before.
    300 polygons, this is what I found to be the case:









    Cloofoofoo I hear you talking a lot about Spiderman, Treyarch, and polygons per stage so this may be of interest to you:

    https://ca.ign.com/articles/2001/11/...-man-the-movie

    Due to the PS2's powerful polygon pushing engine, the game is naturally larger --much larger -- and better looking. (Spider-Man comprises 2,000 polygons and some of the levels span a whopping 30,000 polys per level.)
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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