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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Com'mon, I know you want Rayman 2 but we gotta play fair and square.

    Also I will start trying to switch 3DS Max into Orthographic mode. I've been ignoring this long enough.
    Rayman 2 wouldnt actually be a fair comparison. They are worlds apart. They dont even share the same engine. Rayman 2 on the ps2 is like a pseudo remake and uses renderware engine. The dreamcast version is an enhanced n64 port and holds the honor of being 1 of the 2 games to use bumpmaps on every surface on the level. As a matter of fact you have to use a more up to date emulator to even see those because nulldc was programmed to ignore the bumpmaps otherwise it would show up as purple surface if they werent. To be honest its the shittiest application of bumpmapping , they used it to add more detail to texture instead of trying to fake detail on the mesh.

    No bumpmapping :


    Bumpmapping enabled :

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    I figured it out, it takes one right click on the view square:



    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I never had to tangle with 3ds max, personally use blender.

    The elephants team + harness these are the selection menu model/ replay models as such its the highest lod)
    Those do look like pretty sad elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Rayman 2 wouldnt actually be a fair comparison. They are worlds apart. They dont even share the same engine. Rayman 2 on the ps2 is like a pseudo remake and uses renderware engine. The dreamcast version is an enhanced n64 port and holds the honor of being 1 of the 2 games to use bumpmaps on every surface on the level. As a matter of fact you have to use a more up to date emulator to even see those because nulldc was programmed to ignore the bumpmaps otherwise it would show up as purple surface if they werent. To be honest its the shittiest application of bumpmapping , they used it to add more detail to texture instead of trying to fake detail on the mesh.
    I know its a really strange comparison but if people wanna see it, I can do it. I'll just say the positives and negatives of both versions and what is the overall best one.
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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Heres the glorious Nascar 2001:



    450,000 PPS



    Cloofoofoo to answer your question, the front of the cars aren't clipped, but look at the car on the left, hes LODed as hell.




    Those pictures are from this scene:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Heres the glorious Nascar 2001:



    450,000 PPS



    Cloofoofoo to answer your question, the front of the cars aren't clipped, but look at the car on the left, hes LODed as hell.




    Those pictures are from this scene:

    They kinda have to be. Nascar has alot of cars. Theres a game on the dreamcast thats sadder than this. Cart flag to flag is lower AND locked to 30fps. Theres a 60 fps mode but it goes from like 22 cars to like 5 and removes the rear view. Apparently that game uses render to texture for the rear view mirror which is why iam willing to bet why irs so terrible looking. They should have just done what f355 or daytona 2001 and render polygons as the rearview. Render to texture tends to make the dreamcast choke.

    I saw that first hand in the espn track and field game on dc. Played in real hardware and theres a few events where they use render to texture for the huge background screens, it lowers the framerate massively even with nothing going on. Off the top of my head the weight lifting uses it and so does the hammer toss. There are others but i dont recall. simple trick is to pick one of those events get a gold/silver/bronze medal and when the event is over the camera will spin in the stadium/gym. When ever the render to texture screens are on the screen the frame rate plummets.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 04-21-2020 at 11:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I've heard the biggest reason is because they were uncomfortable with how Bernie Stolar purchased a 1st-party sports studio(Visual Concepts).
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    They weren't too hurt considering they developed ssx originally on the dc. But i guess sega firm refusal of their proposal to be the only sports dev on the platform , they said screw you sega and ported to the ps2.
    As usual there is 2 sides to the story, if you ask Sega they would say that it was due to them not yielding on the decision to make their own sports games, however EA themselves claimed different.

    Quote: According to Gordon, Sega had flip-flopped over whether to include a modem, but it also picked the wrong chipset. "I remember our CTO (chief technology officer) talking about the processor and going, 'Oh my God, I don't know anybody who has even heard of this chip. It's non-standard and there are no libraries for it.' It was kind of a slap in the face. But even then, at first blush, EA is thinking, 'It's Sega. We've got to support them.' You know, we went to war with them on Genesis and did great things. So the chipset alone was not enough to stop EA from working on it."
    Ultimately, Sega's various hardware and business decisions lined up like a row of red flags for EA. According to Gordon, the indecision over the chipset was one thing, the flip-flopping over whether to include a modem was another, but the final straw was Sega's hardball tactics during negotiations over licensing.

    "There was a push from Sega, which was having cash flow problems, and they couldn't afford to give us the same kind of license that EA has had over the last five years. So EA basically said, 'You can't succeed without us.' And Sega said, 'Sure we can. We're Sega.'

    https://www.gamasutra.com/view/featu...st.php?print=1

    I guess its down to who you want to believe. I also know that EA were of the opinion that for every dollar spent on Dreamcast development that was a dollar less that they could dedicate to PS2 development, which they were more interested in.

    Personally I hate EA sports games with a passion, cynically produced, yearly trash, mostly littering the thrift store shelves because no-one wants them.

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    Making sure I did all my replies


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Btw interesting note treyarch made a brand new engine with draconus cult of the wyrm for the dreamcast. They further refined the engine and used it to take max steel also on dc. When they moved to ps2 they used it again for their spiderman games. If you look it up you will see its true. Its even listed some ex employees resume lol.
    If its brand new then it must be doing something impressive. Personally I haven't taken one look at the game.



    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    all images are captured from videos that are captured from the original consoles, 480p doesn't do magic, especially in 2020 where we have much higher resolutions and led display.
    But remember YouTube compression. They compress their videos a huge amount to save bandwidth.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Here is further evidence of what I was talking about from treyarch themselves. Hard to believe it but max steel on the dreamcast is the prior iteration of the same engine that powered spiderman 2002. Then again is you look atthe screen shots for both games properly you will alot of similarities. They probably evne shared art crew, you can see it on max steels city stages.
    I will look at some videos of Spiderman 2002 and see if thats the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    They kinda have to be. Nascar has alot of cars. Theres a game on the dreamcast thats sadder than this. Cart flag to flag is lower AND locked to 30fps. Theres a 60 fps mode but it goes from like 22 cars to like 5 and removes the rear view. Apparently that game uses render to texture for the rear view mirror which is why iam willing to bet why irs so terrible looking. They should have just done what f355 or daytona 2001 and render polygons as the rearview. Render to texture tends to make the dreamcast choke.
    Yes I remember looking at that game, theres nothing redeeming about it. Its sad because its the only F1 game built straight for the Dreamcast.


    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    As usual there is 2 sides to the story, if you ask Sega they would say that it was due to them not yielding on the decision to make their own sports games, however EA themselves claimed different.

    Quote: According to Gordon, Sega had flip-flopped over whether to include a modem, but it also picked the wrong chipset. "I remember our CTO (chief technology officer) talking about the processor and going, 'Oh my God, I don't know anybody who has even heard of this chip. It's non-standard and there are no libraries for it.' It was kind of a slap in the face. But even then, at first blush, EA is thinking, 'It's Sega. We've got to support them.' You know, we went to war with them on Genesis and did great things. So the chipset alone was not enough to stop EA from working on it."
    Ultimately, Sega's various hardware and business decisions lined up like a row of red flags for EA. According to Gordon, the indecision over the chipset was one thing, the flip-flopping over whether to include a modem was another, but the final straw was Sega's hardball tactics during negotiations over licensing.

    "There was a push from Sega, which was having cash flow problems, and they couldn't afford to give us the same kind of license that EA has had over the last five years. So EA basically said, 'You can't succeed without us.' And Sega said, 'Sure we can. We're Sega.'

    https://www.gamasutra.com/view/featu...st.php?print=1

    I guess its down to who you want to believe. I also know that EA were of the opinion that for every dollar spent on Dreamcast development that was a dollar less that they could dedicate to PS2 development, which they were more interested in.

    Personally I hate EA sports games with a passion, cynically produced, yearly trash, mostly littering the thrift store shelves because no-one wants them.
    Well I've definitely heard before that they much preferred 3dfx and wanted it in Dreamcast.

    There is a lot of EA sports genres that the Dreamcast could've really used, like F1 games and snowboarding games.
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    EA I truly believe was burned by Saturn and didn't want to risk betting on Dreamcast. To be fair they were right. EA can also be weird about it. They bet more on the PSP even tho DS kicked its ass. Wasn't the power difference as Activision put those CoD games on DS. Ubi Assassin's Creed. They had token releases on DS for the most part. They supported Wii fairly well until about 2009 or so. Even tho Madden sold well on Wii each year. They decided to stop making Madden on Wii a football sim but cartoony models and arcade-like gameplay. Even tho the terrible selling Gamecube they supported with Madden until 2008. These Wii arcade cartoony Madden games did not do as well. Then comes Wii U and they released a gimped Madden 13, while it returned to being a sim they stripped it of features PS3/360 versions had and still charged $60. Released ME3 at the same time the ME Trilogy Collection was released at the same time on 360 and PS3. Now onto Switch, they re-release the exact same Soccer game each year with updated rosters at full price. And I do mean the exact same game. They call it legacy edition. This is currently the best selling system and they are afraid to support it.

    EA is just odd. I don't think EA not supporting DC has anything to do with the GPU or Visual Concepts. DC was an easy console to develop for. EA probably just felt burned. Sony, MS, and Nintendo had a first-party sports series. They made sports games for Game Boy in 2002 and GBA FFS. They supported GBA maddens longer than DS. GBA was dead in 07 pretty much. EA again is just very very odd at times but their decision to skip DC was correct and maybe one of the few decisions they made that does make sense.


    Sidenote DC also thankfully existed when other companies could make licensed sports games. So the 2K series of course. We also had NFL QB Club. Racing games. Tennis (remember Tennis Video games?). Sure the EA name was not there but for me as a consumer. I didn't miss them TBH, I was happy with what DC had and like NFL 2K better. I also liked not all were sims. Rady 2 Rumble. NFL Blitz. Arcade sports games being a thing was great as well.

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    The EA-Sega split had something to do with Bernie Stolar refusing to give them exclusive rights to sports games on the DC or something to that effect. The impression I got from that interview was that Bernie and the EA guy were on good terms, but Sega decided that EA games just weren't worth it at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    But remember YouTube compression. They compress their videos a huge amount to save bandwidth.

    in these comparisons I made, this issue of compression doesn’t matter because the goal is just to show the textures of the games exclusive to each system, so even the year they were released doesn’t matter.

    on the previous pages i showed dreamcast, gcn and xbox games, now see how the selected dreamcast games compare with native ps2 games.





    this intro below is run in real time on ps2, although the polygonal count is within the capabilities of the dreamcast, it can't reproduce this scene, impossible. the dreamcast games are clearer not because of the clarity but because of the lack of post processing resources in the textures and scene as a whole.

    Last edited by SegaAMD; 04-22-2020 at 08:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    The EA-Sega split had something to do with Bernie Stolar refusing to give them exclusive rights to sports games on the DC or something to that effect. The impression I got from that interview was that Bernie and the EA guy were on good terms, but Sega decided that EA games just weren't worth it at the time.
    I bet it was just that EA saw VC as a threat and looked to pay HardBall with SEGA. EA can always play Hardball with the best of them . They made NCL reduced the price of Snes carts after EA said it would withdraw support of the Snes, because all SNES carts were priced in Yen. To get EA on LIVE, Microsoft had to drop it's NFL games and worst of all, drop XNS Which was such a fantastic feature on LIVE and really way ahead of its time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    EA I truly believe was burned by Saturn and didn't want to risk betting on Dreamcast. To be fair they were right. EA can also be weird about it. They bet more on the PSP even tho DS kicked its ass. Wasn't the power difference as Activision put those CoD games on DS. Ubi Assassin's Creed. They had token releases on DS for the most part. They supported Wii fairly well until about 2009 or so. Even tho Madden sold well on Wii each year. They decided to stop making Madden on Wii a football sim but cartoony models and arcade-like gameplay. Even tho the terrible selling Gamecube they supported with Madden until 2008. These Wii arcade cartoony Madden games did not do as well. Then comes Wii U and they released a gimped Madden 13, while it returned to being a sim they stripped it of features PS3/360 versions had and still charged $60. Released ME3 at the same time the ME Trilogy Collection was released at the same time on 360 and PS3. Now onto Switch, they re-release the exact same Soccer game each year with updated rosters at full price. And I do mean the exact same game. They call it legacy edition. This is currently the best selling system and they are afraid to support it.
    Though EA has never said that was the reason. Cloofoofoo has even said SSX was first developed for the Dreamcast. Thats how close they were to supporting the Dreamcast.

    They could've benefited from supporting the Dreamcast. A lot of the early PS2 EA games are no match for the Dreamcast, they could've easily created Dreamcast versions for an extra 300,000 sales.

    Also the main American supporter of the Dreamcast was Midway and they benefited a lot from it, a lot of those Midway games were selling likely around 500,000 copies. This would've been a similar case for EA.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    The EA-Sega split had something to do with Bernie Stolar refusing to give them exclusive rights to sports games on the DC or something to that effect. The impression I got from that interview was that Bernie and the EA guy were on good terms, but Sega decided that EA games just weren't worth it at the time.
    This is the reason I gave. Bernie actually agreed they could be the only sports developer besides Visual Concepts, but they didn't like the sounds of that either.


    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    in these comparisons I made, this issue of compression doesn’t matter because the goal is just to show the textures of the games exclusive to each system, so even the year they were released doesn’t matter.

    on the previous pages i showed dreamcast, gcn and xbox games, now see how the selected dreamcast games compare with native ps2 games.





    this intro below is run in real time on ps2, although the polygonal count is within the capabilities of the dreamcast, it can't reproduce this scene, impossible. the dreamcast games are clearer not because of the clarity but because of the lack of post processing resources in the textures and scene as a whole.

    We can't see the pictures, they kinda got funky URLs, upload them to a image hosting site.
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    Also those URLs have a .br ending, SegaAMD I totally knew you were a Romance speaker.
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    So sadly I don't have anything to post tonight, I will put a 2 TB harddrive in my computer then thats it for computer stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Though EA has never said that was the reason. Cloofoofoo has even said SSX was first developed for the Dreamcast. Thats how close they were to supporting the Dreamcast.

    They could've benefited from supporting the Dreamcast. A lot of the early PS2 EA games are no match for the Dreamcast, they could've easily created Dreamcast versions for an extra 300,000 sales.

    Also the main American supporter of the Dreamcast was Midway and they benefited a lot from it, a lot of those Midway games were selling likely around 500,000 copies. This would've been a similar case for EA.



    This is the reason I gave. Bernie actually agreed they could be the only sports developer besides Visual Concepts, but they didn't like the sounds of that either.


    We can't see the pictures, they kinda got funky URLs, upload them to a image hosting site.
    To be honest sounds like they had it up and running seeing how they said it looked worse than the ps2 version :
    SSX started life as a Dreamcast game, in the time before the PlayStation 2 was fully announced. However, when EA decided to end their long running relationship with SEGA over dubious hardware decisions (the choice of the CPU powering Dreamcast) and a proposed new licensing deal (less money from sold games going to EA), the development was switched to Sony’s flagship console of the time. According to Rechtschaffner the shift worked out well for SSX as SEGA's console wouldn't have had the same rendering ability as the PlayStation 2
    Though stolar called bullshit on their reason why they wouldnt support the dreamcast because he was present during negotiations :
    "This is what happened, very clearly," explained Stolar. "Larry came to me and said, 'Bernie, we'll support Dreamcast, but this is what I want.' And I thought, 'Great, I know Larry, I know the company real well, I can negotiate this,' I thought he was going to ask for smaller royalties. I would have given him smaller royalties, no question about that."

    In the late 1990s, EA was a keen observer of console launches. It knew that striking a deal with hardware companies while they were building their system -- when, according to Gordon, they were worried about costs and putting the company at risk -- was to EA's advantage. "That's when you strike your five-year licensing deal," Gordon said. Probst saw a field of competitors going against EA's growing sports franchises and wanted something more.

    "'We want to be the only sports brand on Dreamcast,'" Stolar recalled Probst saying. "'We want the exclusive rights to be the only sports brand on Dreamcast.'"

    This surprised Stolar, whose strategic planning included Visual Concepts as a key element in making Dreamcast a success.

    Stolar countered. "I said, 'Larry, I'll tell you what. As a third party, I'll agree to that. But I'm not going to agree to that for first party. I bought Visual Concepts for $10 million. So you can compete with Visual Concepts. We'll have Visual Concepts sports titles and we'll have EA sports titles, and that will be it.'"

    Probst didn't budge.
    Oh btw I found something out that you might be interested. A bit of info you might have left out for your ready 2 rumble comparison. apparently the dc version uses 1280x480 resolution internally confirmed by the author of demul when I was going through old dreamcast forums:

    emu author: there is one more interesting thing about Wacky Races - it is one of very few Dreamcast games which rendered in 1280x480 (and later scaled down to 640 with interpolation, to make image smooth and reduce aliasing)


    forum member:Wait What?! Wacky Racers renders natively in 1280x480?!

    emu author : right, there is 2 more games which does the same - Omicron Nomad Soul and Ready2Rumble

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    in these comparisons I made, this issue of compression doesn’t matter because the goal is just to show the textures of the games exclusive to each system, so even the year they were released doesn’t matter.

    on the previous pages i showed dreamcast, gcn and xbox games, now see how the selected dreamcast games compare with native ps2 games.




    this intro below is run in real time on ps2, although the polygonal count is within the capabilities of the dreamcast, it can't reproduce this scene, impossible. the dreamcast games are clearer not because of the clarity but because of the lack of post processing resources in the textures and scene as a whole.

    And this is why I say your full of shit. The dreamcast wouldnt be able to run that intro? lol. I bet your going to ignore this but whatever. Basically remove the post process effects and what do you have? the same exact scene but it no blurriness to hide the defects. Below is metal gear solid 2 for pc running on my pc with no post process effects or fancy effects, just fog. Its still the same scene despite no blur effects and you can even see how low res the textures are. You still think the dreamcast wouldnt be able to run it despite you just admitted its polygon count is with in the real of possibility and now I showed its still the same crap with no post process ? To be honest the only real set back would be the headlights( i suspect too much transparent blending would hamper framerate)but even then they can probably be replaced by opaque effects or just reduced, no biggie.Down porting to the dreamcast wouldnt be as dramatic as you think. The below screens is probably how it would have looked on dc if they gave a damn.


    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 04-23-2020 at 03:00 AM.

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