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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Heres the sequel to Jeremy McGrath SuperCross 2000, Jeremy McGrath SuperCross World for PS2.

    This game seems to be what you would expect. It was made by Acclaim, a developer known for making kinda shovelware games that didn't have the highest budgets. It is pretty fun from a gameplay perspective, but the graphics aren't very good.

    Though thankfully this game has a stable framerate this time, a constant 60 FPS.




    As you can see, this game has a huge increase in polycounts, but for the third time this game still has N64-level textures.

    12 million PPS!!! Just kidding, this game has tons of duplicate polygons and junk on screen, I don't know which ones I'm supposed to delete.



    the PS2 really is more powerful than the Dreamcast.
    a lot more powerful, this game was also released gamecube, ps2 version is more advanced since the gcn version is somewhat blurry. there is no reason why it doesn’t reach 12 million polygons, in indoor races the game is very beautiful and the textures are very far from any n64 game, my god we’re talking about a game that even if it’s low budget is still a playstation 2 game, not even dreamcast has a game to compete against this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    which one do you want to see from me next?
    I'll be interested to know the Polygon counts and features to some of these please on the DC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Heres the sequel to Jeremy McGrath SuperCross 2000, Jeremy McGrath SuperCross World for PS2.

    This game seems to be what you would expect. It was made by Acclaim, a developer known for making kinda shovelware games that didn't have the highest budgets. It is pretty fun from a gameplay perspective, but the graphics aren't very good.

    Though thankfully this game has a stable framerate this time, a constant 60 FPS.




    As you can see, this game has a huge increase in polycounts, but for the third time this game still has N64-level textures.



    The textures are really bad here.



    In an indoor supercross track. The game has alright particle effects and dynamic shadows for all the riders.



    For the record, I don't know if that rider on the right actually pulled that off.


    12 million PPS!!! Just kidding, this game has tons of duplicate polygons and junk on screen, I don't know which ones I'm supposed to delete.



    However the player rider seems to have realistic polycounts, 2600 polygons. This is the same amount of polygons as an entire screen in the Dreamcast game, the PS2 really is more powerful than the Dreamcast.



    2 million PPS in the outskirts, not very realistic. Sadly this game doesn't have good PCSX2 compatibility so I'm gonna have to leave you guys blue-balled.


    Also Cloofoofoo my next game I will look at is Zusar Vasar.
    I had to check it out , you made it seem interesting.You were right, it wasnt 12 million polygons per second. Its seems to be slightly over 3.5 million polygons per second at 60 fps, you must have alot of duplicates on that screen grab. Not sure what you meant it doesnt have good compatibility with pcsx 2, works perfect but that could be because I use a hybrid pcsx2 thats newer. Yikes textures on this game seem quite ugly.

    To convert this on the dreamcast you would automatically have to run this at 30 fps then proceed to either rework the geometry or use distance clipping(lowering to 40k tris per frame would be more manageable, most likely what they would have done considering its acclaim but I would have no faith in them being able to maintain steady 30 fps on the dc.)

    52,160 tris per frame x 60 fps = 3.1 million polygons per second.


    59,358 tris per frame × 60 fps =‬ 3.56 million polygons per second


    42,035 tris x 60 fps = 2.5 million polygons per second
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 05-07-2020 at 04:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    That's not how it works. Shenmue 2 already has slowdowns from the lack of fillrate( they opted to use no mip maps and it really hurts performance). Theres most likey no CPU and fillrate to spare for framebuffer effects.Not to mention the CPU is probably busy with other things. In another forum some one posted n interesting article on what they found under the hood with shenmue 2 when it was ported to PC.

    Basically they found out that the game had a real moon in the sky that produces accurate physical moon phases using the direction "sun" light. Or that the lucky hit game board and ball physics is affected by the weather outside. Then keep in mind of the simple but numerous ai paths it has to keep track of s well.
    But still the game is from late 2001, it can't be maxing out the Dreamcast aside from polycounts. Imagine if there was a Shenmue IV from 2004, it would've had numerous improvements over Shenmue II. Like the 360 is another console thats easy to develop for, no one would say a 360 game from 2008 would be maxing it out.


    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    a lot more powerful, this game was also released gamecube, ps2 version is more advanced since the gcn version is somewhat blurry. there is no reason why it doesn’t reach 12 million polygons, in indoor races the game is very beautiful and the textures are very far from any n64 game, my god we’re talking about a game that even if it’s low budget is still a playstation 2 game, not even dreamcast has a game to compete against this one.
    I was being satirical. The reason a bike in the PS2 game has the same polycounts as a entire screen in the Dreamcast game, is because the Dreamcast game still has the same polycounts as the N64 version.


    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I'll be interested to know the Polygon counts and features to some of these please on the DC.

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    I got Pen Pen TriIcelon practically done, just not sure when to post it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I had to check it out , you made it seem interesting.You were right, it wasnt 12 million polygons per second. Its seems to be slightly over 3.5 million polygons per second at 60 fps, you must have alot of duplicates on that screen grab. Not sure what you meant it doesnt have good compatibility with pcsx 2, works perfect but that could be because I use a hybrid pcsx2 thats newer. Yikes textures on this game seem quite ugly.

    To convert this on the dreamcast you would automatically have to run this at 30 fps then proceed to either rework the geometry or use distance clipping(lowering to 40k tris per frame would be more manageable, most likely what they would have done considering its acclaim but I would have no faith in them being able to maintain steady 30 fps on the dc.)
    I use ZeroGS for double-checking things but its not the best for screenshots. Its from late 2006 so very old.

    The game has a huge draw distance, just reduce the draw distance until it hits 1.5 to 2.5 million PPS then you got the Dreamcast version. If it was 30 FPS then that would a huge buzzkill, but likely Acclaim would've done something like that.
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    I will start writing up a big post, I finally got the APNGs uploaded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    But still the game is from late 2001, it can't be maxing out the Dreamcast aside from polycounts. Imagine if there was a Shenmue IV from 2004, it would've had numerous improvements over Shenmue II. Like the 360 is another console thats easy to develop for, no one would say a 360 game from 2008 would be maxing it out.


    I was being satirical. The reason a bike in the PS2 game has the same polycounts as a entire screen in the Dreamcast game, is because the Dreamcast game still has the same polycounts as the N64 version.


    I got Pen Pen TriIcelon practically done, just not sure when to post it.



    I use ZeroGS for double-checking things but its not the best for screenshots. Its from late 2006 so very old.

    The game has a huge draw distance, just reduce the draw distance until it hits 1.5 to 2.5 million PPS then you got the Dreamcast version. If it was 30 FPS then that would a huge buzzkill, but likely Acclaim would've done something like that.
    I see. I use a weird set up. I use a much newer core for the emulator , like 1.4.0 if I remember right(that's like from 2014 I think. This gives me access to more playable games compatibility and stability while using the old zerogs plugins and whatnot.

    On the shenmue 2 front there's probably more limiting factors to think bout that raw performance. The lack of bigger ram and fillrate problems due to no mip maps probably hurt it the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I will start writing up a big post, I finally got the APNGs uploaded.
    Sadly I got distracted, the post will be written up this morning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I see. I use a weird set up. I use a much newer core for the emulator , like 1.4.0 if I remember right(that's like from 2014 I think. This gives me access to more playable games compatibility and stability while using the old zerogs plugins and whatnot.
    Yes well those screenshots you produce are still a big help to me and other members in this thread.
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    I'm uploading images and writing up the big post. If anyone wants to post a song for me to listen to while I do this, it could raise or lower productivity.
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    Test Drive Le Mans (Dreamcast, 2000, Updated)


    We will finally settle the debate about this game. This is one of the Dreamcast's most famous racing games, Test Drive Le Mans. Created by the talented Infogrames Melbourne House, this is 3rd party support done right on the Dreamcast. This is likely the best looking racing game from 2000.




    As you can see, this game is very graphically well-balanced with high-res textures, high poly cars with dynamic shadows, and good presentation.



    Car selection.





    Lots of high poly cars on screen.





    The weather effects are very well done.



    Donington is the best looking track in the game.



    The road textures make Ridge Racer V look like a joke.



    Heat haze effect.



    Different car.



    Different part of track.



    A couple rival cars.



    Tons of shiny high poly cars.



    Close-up with rival car's particle effects.

    So graphically this game doesn't have any major flaws. Though in minor flaws the only thing I can think of is the daytime races have kinda weak shadows.


    In terms of polygons this game is famous for its polycounts. Which is its urban myth polycounts. You constantly see this game being declared as "5 million PPS", though the reality is no Dreamcast game comes close to hitting 5 million PPS and neither does any PS2 game from 2000(it took until 2001 for PS2). Not even arcade boards from 1998 could hit 5 million PPS. The reality is this game has average polycounts, though with lots of special effects.

    Average: 800,000 to 1.1 million polygons per second





    Near the starting line with 1 mid-LOD rival and a couple low-LOD rivals. 1.05 million PPS



    Player car is 5500 polygons. Not quite as high as the cars in Ridge Racer V, but the cars still seem about on-par.



    Mid-LOD rival car is 4500 polygons.




    In straightaway with 1 mid-LOD rival and a couple low-LOD rivals. 500,000 PPS



    Player car is same 5500 polygons.



    Mid-LOD rival is 3500 polygons.
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    Test Drive Le Mans (Dreamcast, 2000, Updated) (Continued)





    2 high-LOD rival cars. As you can see, most of the polygons in this game come from when theres several high-LOD and mid-LOD rivals on-screen. 750,000 PPS




    1 high-LOD rival car. 500,000 PPS



    High-LOD rival car is 5000 polygons.




    In a scene like this with tons of high-LOD and mid-LOD rival cars, the game will hit 1.55 million PPS.



    High-LOD rival car is 5000 polygons.




    Even this name entry scene will hit 800,000 PPS.



    Showpiece car is 9500 polygons.




    At Donington track with lots of low-LOD rivals. 950,000 PPS




    The polygons in this game only come from rival cars. With no rival cars on-screen, this game will dip as low as 300,000 PPS.



    Different player car is 6000 polygons.




    Under a bridge with 1 low-LOD rival. 550,000 PPS



    Low-LOD rival is 750 polygons. So they really go low in polygons.




    Different track with high-LOD rival and a couple low-LOD rivals. 750,000 PPS



    Player car is same 6000 polygons.



    Rival car is 5000 polygons.
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    Test Drive Le Mans (Dreamcast, 2000, Updated) (Continued Part 2)





    At different track with 2 high-LOD rivals and a couple low-LOD rivals. 800,000 PPS



    Different player car is 6000 polygons.




    At starting line with 1 high-LOD rival. 700,000 PPS



    Player car is same 6000 polygons.



    Rival car is 5000 polygons.




    They actually made the multiplayer part run at 60 FPS. So this scene is 1.75 million PPS.



    Player car is 5500 polygons.



    Player car is 5500 polygons.




    Different player cars. 1.8 million PPS



    Different player car is 5500 polygons.



    Different player car is 5500 polygons.




    In 4 player multiplayer the game will even hit 2.4 million PPS.



    In 4 player multiplayer the player cars are 5000 polygons.



    Player car is same 5000 polygons.



    Player car is 4500 polygons.



    Player car is 4500 polygons.


    If anyone ever tries to tell you the Dreamcast isn't a 6th gen console, show them this game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    In terms of polygons this game is famous for its polycounts. Which is its urban myth polycounts. You constantly see this game being declared as "5 million PPS", though the reality is no Dreamcast game comes close to hitting 5 million PPS and neither does any PS2 game from 2000(it took until 2001 for PS2). Not even arcade boards from 1998 could hit 5 million PPS. The reality is this game has average polycounts, though with lots of special effects.
    nice post dude, then compare it to the ps2 version, even though it doesn't take advantage of sony's hardware.

    wrong, the ps2 debuted showing games with over 5 million polygons, F1 games still in the year 2000 reached more than 5M just measure the start with all the cars together. F1 racing championship ubisoft and F1 champioship season 2000 EA, ESPN Track and field over 4M, moto gp1, gungriffon blaze, army men air attack 2, top gear dare devil, armored core 2 maybe.

    https://youtu.be/g6GvppEs5q0
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 05-09-2020 at 07:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    nice post dude, then compare it to the ps2 version, even though it doesn't take advantage of sony's hardware.

    wrong, the ps2 debuted showing games with over 5 million polygons, F1 games still in the year 2000 reached more than 5M just measure the start with all the cars together. F1 racing championship ubisoft and F1 champioship season 2000 EA, ESPN Track and field over 4M, moto gp1, gungriffon blaze, army men air attack 2, top gear dare devil, armored core 2 maybe.

    https://youtu.be/g6GvppEs5q0
    A lot of those games have to be verified. Also theres no F1 Racing Championship released in 2000 for the PS2, and Top Gear Dare Devil is from mid-December 2000 so not much of a difference.


    Cloofoofoo I am looking at Zusar Vasar. What races do I gotta do to unlock the elephants?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    A lot of those games have to be verified. Also theres no F1 Racing Championship released in 2000 for the PS2, and Top Gear Dare Devil is from mid-December 2000 so not much of a difference.


    Cloofoofoo I am looking at Zusar Vasar. What races do I gotta do to unlock the elephants?
    While segamd is being a whiny weenie because he obviously doesnt like the dreamcast and cant put things in perspeptive, there was F1 Championship Season 2000 in 2000 by ea. It indeed reaches 6 million polygons per second. I have a screen shot of that. But like test drive lemans proves art style is equally important and you dont need 6 mpps to make a great looking game. To be honest alot of ps2 games even late gen struggled to reach above 4mpps. Its hard even finding games that went over 7 mpps . So hes very wrong in that regard thinking every games is 12mpps +, not even remotely close. even in 2001 airblade was doing slightly over 6 mpps but it wasnt the norm at all.

    You know I thought might have been wrong on the vs mode being framed unlocked since single player is 30 fps locked but you were right. Checked it with demul , its 60 fps capable, wow. Would be good to test if real hardware can run at that speed though or its just the emulator. The cars polygon count maybe wrong, even with all their stupid lying about 5 million polygons the developers mentioned each car 2,500 polygons. Your extractions are exactly double that interestingly , makes me wonder if nulldc strikes again.

    For zusar vasar I simply used the vmu save cd. Thats what i do for most games. lol

    F1 Championship Season 2000 - ps2 - 91,242 tris x 60 fps 5.4 mpps.


    Test drive lemans dc vs mode is indeed frame unblocked.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 05-09-2020 at 12:31 PM.

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    Gonna put a psp game now . I figure this is relative because alot of people consider psp and dreamcast to be more or less on par with each other. So it will be interesting to see how a high end psp game stacks up. So this is the third 3rd Birthday by Square Enix. Square was always good with their art and thats something the dreamcast sorely lacked support on. The polygon counts for this game is actually super modest. If anything reminds be of illbleed on the dc in that regard.

    Like I was saying before you dont need 6 million polygons per second to make a good looking game or a fame who can fake more detail.

    Main character - 1,582 tris


    Main character in Lightning costume - 1,602 tris


    npc hyde - 1.050 tris


    pistol - 50 tris


    Assault rifle - 92 tris


    Final boss platform - 31,947 tris


    City street - 14,571 tris


    Regular enemy - 600 tris


    Final boss - 2,998 tris

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