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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #3076
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    Another example, this time the wii game pandoras tower. I captured everything on the scene even the unseen. Still lower than the emulator reading but the vertex count is similar to the emulator reading. So most likely its the vertex count. Pandora tower with some modification I personally think could be made to run on ps2 and dc with some modification because actual gameplay runs much lower than this cutscene.( around 60k tris per frame x 30 fps = 1.8 mpps)

    pandora tower - wii - 2011
    Intro cutscene/wrong count/vertex count/ emulator - 135,505 tris x 30 fps = 4 mpps


    Actual polygon count intro - 105,895 x 30 fps = 3.1 mpps

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Again you're naming super big titles, the run of the mill titles and some important exclusive (aka like 70% of the games) were pretty much with in reach. And it was only few outstanding games that even pushed this hard. Again your narrative has holes.
    Amen, a lot of the generic 6th gen multiplats are no match for the Dreamcast.
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    Also I will double check a lot of these games, I don't know how big the Jak III ISO is but luckily I got the game on my game shelve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    the ps2 can reache millions of polygons per second mainly because it's a multipass machine, a simple lighting effect on ps2 requires re-rendering to the whole scene, in this process it wastes more than 9M of polygons. so marketing use theoretical situation. they used this hyperbole to emphasize something simple, that the ps2 was more capable than the dreamcast.
    That's not quite true, simple lightning could be done in a single pass, it is more complicated effects that required multiple passes, wasting fillrate. But like you are trying to say, the PS2 had a lot of fillrate to waste. One developer who posted here a decade ago mentioned that it was cheaper to just overdraw covered polygons while rasterizing, than to calculate whether they need to be drawn or not.
    One of the matrix games did Normal Mapping on the PS2 (something more usually seen on late Xbox titles), which was definitely not a hardware feature, but the pipeline could be programmed to do it, and there was enough fillrate to make it possible.

    But it didn't actually calculate polygons multiple times... it was essentially just brute force pixel shading in software.

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    Can you do the hub city in The Last Story or the plains in Xenoblade?

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  6. #3081
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Can you do the hub city in The Last Story or the plains in Xenoblade?
    Ehh Wii games are huge. Also it isn't really the point of this thread. I just posted it as an example to show SegaAmd his counting is way off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I will exemplify; dreamcast had more than 400 games but only managed to reach a peak of 3M promised by Sega in shmups, precisely because these games have a fixed lighting simple physic.

    in action games the dreamcast is around 1M to a peak of 2.2M/2.4M reached in the game Floigam bros of 2001.
    But you're ignoring the obvious. You say Floigan Bros has a lot of polygons, so the reality is not only does the game hit 3 million PPS, its 1 of the 2 Dreamcast games that will go past 3 million PPS by a small amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    ps2 so early, still in 2000 receives complex games capable over twice the capacity marketed by SEGA, f1 2000 making 6M, Track and field more than 4M, if I take 2001 game as air blade making 8.4M, Baldur´s Gate Dark Alliance, measure by me on Dolphin was almost 9M.
    I will verify these games then you can jack them off all you want. I do feel F1 Championship Season 2000 is likely hitting 5 million PPS, however the other ones are likely urban myth polycounts.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Also I hate to inform you the counter on the GameCube emulator is wrong or it's counting all primitives(not only polygons but maybe verts and edges). It inflates the count considerably. I confirmed this with soul Calibur 2, the emulator count was 75k "polygons" but extracted frame was 30k Tris with 3d ripper, same place on the ps2 version was 33k and thanks to another forum member I read that devs mentioned each character 4k and the background is 20k. That's makes it 28k total. It's impossible to reach 75k like the emulator state. Sorry to burst your bubble. There's no 9 mpps there's

    On average ps2 2x to 3.5x more dense per frame (NHL 45k vs 90k f1 per frame)
    Oh this is a big deal, even 6 years ago people were using that Dolphin counter and were saying the GameCube was hitting 12 million PPS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    But you're ignoring the obvious. You say Floigan Bros has a lot of polygons, so the reality is not only does the game hit 3 million PPS, its 1 of the 2 Dreamcast games that will go past 3 million PPS by a small amount.

    I will verify these games then you can jack them off all you want. I do feel F1 Championship Season 2000 is likely hitting 5 million PPS, however the other ones are likely urban myth polycounts.



    Oh this is a big deal, even 6 years ago people were using that Dolphin counter and were saying the GameCube was hitting 12 million PPS.
    If I were you I wouldnt even waste my energy verifying. Heres why. I already addressed airblade and multiple times and even corrected it. He knows damn well it doesnt touch 8 mpps lets alone 8.4 mpps so you can go by just that he hangs on to anything for his narrative.

    F1 most definitely hits 5 mpps. But thats the peak(around 5.5 mpps) it tends to cruise at 4.5mpps @ 60 fps. Very impressive none the less for the year.

    Yeah look at the examples i posted back there , the gamecube/wii emulator counter isnt for polygons, most likely its for vertices or its wrong. Also I noted gamecube actually has alot of 30 fps titles( some surprised me like pn03) and so does wii.

    AirBlade - 100,512 tris per frame x 60 fps = 6mpps

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post

    I will verify these games then you can jack them off all you want. I do feel F1 Championship Season 2000 is likely hitting 5 million PPS, however the other ones are likely urban myth polycounts.


    .
    Heres a few "myth" ps2 games people mention. Grand prix challenge(2002) by Melbourne house( guys who did le mans on the dc) and F1 racing championship(2001) by video systems. Grand prix challange especially is usually touted 12 mpps - 20 mpps well its no where near, its running very similar to f1 season 2000 two years prior. I guess like test drive lemans the Melbourne house guys like to hype things lol. F1 racing championship was terrible looking on the dreamcast and while better on the ps2 it isnt all that much better.

    Grand prix challange - 2002
    86,550 tris per frame × 60fps = 5.1 mpps


    F1 racing championship(ps2 version) - 2001
    16,091 tris per frame × 60fps = 965K per second

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    Yes there was 1 member in this thread who was constantly saying "Grand Prix Challenge was doing 18 million PPS". I said theres no way you're gonna see those polycounts from a console released in early 2000. He then kept linking a IGN article saying the developers said 18 million PPS. I then said they did the same thing with Test Drive Le Mans. It was a constant game of denying.


    Interesting to know about F1 Racing Championship. We both know all the F1 games for the Dreamcast are garbage, so thats likely what a somewhat good F1 game would've looked like for the Dreamcast.
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    I'd be amazed if there are any PS2 games past 10 million. Gamecube or Xbox yeah. Gamecube theoretical max with textures and lighting was 12 million and I don't know if any game hit that. Maybe Rogue Squadron games and I think someone did those already. I don't want to go looking through every post but what is the average max you saw for PS2? 5-6 with only occasional games surpassing that and likely late PS2 games? Don't me wrong some PS2 games looked beyond the hardware like Silent Hill 3 or GOW2 but typically games looked well below Gamecube and Xbox best-looking games.

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  12. #3087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    I'd be amazed if there are any PS2 games past 10 million. Gamecube or Xbox yeah. Gamecube theoretical max with textures and lighting was 12 million and I don't know if any game hit that. Maybe Rogue Squadron games and I think someone did those already. I don't want to go looking through every post but what is the average max you saw for PS2? 5-6 with only occasional games surpassing that and likely late PS2 games? Don't me wrong some PS2 games looked beyond the hardware like Silent Hill 3 or GOW2 but typically games looked well below Gamecube and Xbox best-looking games.



    surely there are games on the ps2 that exceed 10M but the emulator of friends has not yet captured that number in games.


    according to the emulator the Rogue Squadron reaches 12M but only in the initial hangar, during the game it never exceeds 9M, however the user Cloofoofoo said that Dolphin is not to be trusted, so probably no GCN game reached 12M. here I measured the main multplat and exclusive GCN games https://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...raphics/page16

    ps2 average is in my opinion 4M (Dreamcast average is 1,7M) but there are games below 1M on ps2 the highest was 9M. famous ps2 games all have a low polygonal count, the explanation for this is that the games have physics, advanced lighting and in general have a very large map, so the large map is filled with spaced polygons generating a low count per frame.

  13. #3088
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post


    surely there are games on the ps2 that exceed 10M but the emulator of friends has not yet captured that number in games.


    according to the emulator the Rogue Squadron reaches 12M but only in the initial hangar, during the game it never exceeds 9M, however the user Cloofoofoo said that Dolphin is not to be trusted, so probably no GCN game reached 12M. here I measured the main multplat and exclusive GCN games https://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...raphics/page16

    ps2 average is in my opinion 4M (Dreamcast average is 1,7M) but there are games below 1M on ps2 the highest was 9M. famous ps2 games all have a low polygonal count, the explanation for this is that the games have physics, advanced lighting and in general have a very large map, so the large map is filled with spaced polygons generating a low count per frame.
    I wouldn't put my faith on silent Hill. You go off too much on character/ main object prettyness. I checked out clock tower 3 and fatal frame 2/3 and rule of rose on ps2. They barely run at 1.5 mpps @ 60 fps. With clock tower doing like 500k per second on the usual. The only horror game that pushed slot that I tested was haunting ground pushing like 50k Tris per frame average. The other fixed camera game doing around and over 3mpps is devil may cry at 60fps. So yeah I wouldn't bet on silent Hill 2 or 3 if I was you. Don't assume just because I haven't mentioned it that I haven't tested it.

    I can't test rougue squadron 2 or 3. They do some weird depth stuff and crashes the dx9 version of the emulator. But yes most likely the real number is lower.

    I think you don't understand something. It's not about lazyness or effort or mystically pushing more lights and physics sometimes it's just time and money. Treyarch said it best when they got interviewed for their draconus game: " we would all like to make the next metal gear solid 2 but reality is that budget and time frame shape the game, got to work with what you got". I paraphrase it of course but that gist of it.
    Just because it's the ps2 doesn't mean they will all achieve the same thing.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 05-15-2020 at 01:49 PM.

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    SH3 is small areas and pretty flat most the time so yeah rest of the resources went into character models. SH3 over 10? lol Nah. Yeah RS was the only example I could think of that could possibly be over 10. Didn't say it was. I have no way to test this stuff. Tho was it AMD claiming it was 15 million earlier in the thread?

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  15. #3090
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Yes there was 1 member in this thread who was constantly saying "Grand Prix Challenge was doing 18 million PPS". I said theres no way you're gonna see those polycounts from a console released in early 2000. He then kept linking a IGN article saying the developers said 18 million PPS. I then said they did the same thing with Test Drive Le Mans. It was a constant game of denying.


    Interesting to know about F1 Racing Championship. We both know all the F1 games for the Dreamcast are garbage, so thats likely what a somewhat good F1 game would've looked like for the Dreamcast.
    I wouldn't say they were garbage, the world grix 1 and 2 played great and back in the day go decent scores for graphics. Some of the crappy Ubisoft ones for Europe even had online play. So while graphics weren't their merit they did have other positives.

    I might try chaos legion , maybe silent Hill 2 next.

    I think it's more surprising that some Wii games if you cut out the multi texture and frame buffer effects and lowered the polygon count just tiny bit they might run on the DC.

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