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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I've been doing some troubleshooting, it seems the quality of the burn determines whether it will boot or not. I've noticed my Giga Wing 2 burn only works %33 of the time. So it usually has nothing to do with the software on the disc, but the quality of the burn.


    Also I've been playing Giga Wing 2 on real hardware, theres absolutely no lag whatsoever at the spot where the game hits 3 million PPS.
    They way you burn and the CD sector settings matter. If you use discjuggler u can use this setting:
    In the "Advanced Tab"; set "Mode" to "Mode 1/DVD". Block to "2352". Be warned some burns are probalmatic and for some reason only work in mode2.
    TOC to CD-XA.

    I am not surprised , I told you before shmups are like Dreamcast best case scenario. Very little physics lots of small models that can just be duplicated from the memory( I heard small models in triangle strips are cache friendly for the Dreamcast) probably 1 or 2 directional light with very little transparencies. Not to mention barely any animated meshes.

    Its no wonder why real world geometry with heavy physics would struggle more like in f355 challenge. If you do tag in doa2 and if you happen to get 4 people on screen on real hardware it stutters untill the 4th person leaves. I suspect is less about polygon count and more the fact 4 animated meshes that are like 8k to 10 k Tris per model is heavy on the CPU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I was wondering when you were going to bring up GT4. It is the showcase title for the PS2, and pretty much the gold standard for that generation of racing games.
    GT4, Valkyrie Profile 2, Monster Hunter, the machine can really make amazing graphics, although having received about 4,000 games, I feel the PS2 had some retained capabilities in favor of ps3. We could have seen more games like Hitman Blood Money and The Matrix Path of Neo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    They way you burn and the CD sector settings matter. If you use discjuggler u can use this setting:
    In the "Advanced Tab"; set "Mode" to "Mode 1/DVD". Block to "2352". Be warned some burns are probalmatic and for some reason only work in mode2.
    TOC to CD-XA.

    I am not surprised , I told you before shmups are like Dreamcast best case scenario. Very little physics lots of small models that can just be duplicated from the memory( I heard small models in triangle strips are cache friendly for the Dreamcast) probably 1 or 2 directional light with very little transparencies. Not to mention barely any animated meshes.
    And I told you my response, these shoot-em-ups were all released in 2001 and later which is when the average AAA Dreamcast game was hitting 2-3 million PPS. It has nothing to do with that fact they're shoot-em-ups. NCAA College Football 2K2 has similar polycounts to shoot-em-ups, released in August 2001.


    I appreciate the settings tips. I've been mostly using ImgBurn, I acquired DiscJuggler but don't really know if it works better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    And I told you my response, these shoot-em-ups were all released in 2001 and later which is when the average AAA Dreamcast game was hitting 2-3 million PPS. It has nothing to do with that fact they're shoot-em-ups. NCAA College Football 2K2 has similar polycounts to shoot-em-ups, released in August 2001.


    I appreciate the settings tips. I've been mostly using ImgBurn, I acquired DiscJuggler but don't really know if it works better.
    I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this like we do on frame rate.


    For your burns the final tip is to burn no higher than x8 speed( or whatever your lowest is). Faster speeds guarantee a bad burn.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 10-10-2019 at 09:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this like we do on frame rate.


    For your burns the final tip is to burn no higher than x8 speed( or whatever your lowest is). Faster speeds guarantee a bad burn.
    Its fine if you wanna agree to disagree, I will eventually state more things about your thoughts on shoot-em-up performance but we'll leave it for now.


    I thought my Ikaruga burn was a broken one, I tried booting it in the Dreamcast again and it booted immediately. Its definitely the quality of the burn. Playing that game was the best gaming experience I've ever had on a Dreamcast. This game is a pure masterpiece.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Its fine if you wanna agree to disagree, I will eventually state more things about your thoughts on shoot-em-up performance but we'll leave it for now.


    I thought my Ikaruga burn was a broken one, I tried booting it in the Dreamcast again and it booted immediately. Its definitely the quality of the burn. Playing that game was the best gaming experience I've ever had on a Dreamcast. This game is a pure masterpiece.
    There's nothing wrong with my train of thought for shmups or frame rate. You're painting a wide brush with visual concept games as 2001 games forgetting they were 1st party. Most games in 2001 still hovered at 1 million to 1.5 million except shmups. I have nothing against the genre but considering every its apparent that shmups polygon count doesn't transfer so easily to other genres or it would have been more apparent and common.

    Even look at the visual concept games your touting, barely anylighting and heavily mipmapped. Definitely performance came at some cost. We can't even confirm polygon counts as it doesn't work on nulldc 106b. Not the best example. There are some games that push a ton verts but not many Tris. That's not a glitch, could be they are rendering things inefficiently.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 10-10-2019 at 05:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    There's nothing wrong with my train of thought for shmups or frame rate. You're painting a wide brush with visual concept games as 2001 games forgetting they were 1st party. Most games in 2001 still hovered at 1 million to 1.5 million except shmups. I have nothing against the genre but considering every its apparent that shmups polygon count doesn't transfer so easily to other genres or it would have been more apparent and common.

    Even look at the visual concept games your touting, barely anylighting and heavily mipmapped. Definitely performance came at some cost. We can't even confirm polygon counts as it doesn't work on nulldc 106b. Not the best example. There are some games that push a ton verts but not many Tris. That's not a glitch, could be they are rendering things inefficiently.
    We'll come back to this.


    So I tried using a laptop to do burns, its a beefy one(i5 with 6 GB DDR3). The important variable is that barely anything is running on it, where as on my desktop I got a browser with 40 tabs. The situation might be other programs might be interfering with the CD burning by using up CPU and RAM resources. So it seems the quality of the burn also means the CD burning program needs full computer resources to do its job.
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    Talking about sports I decided to revisit Konamis Espn NBA2Night. Despite looking ugly as sin its quite capable. Can spike up close to 1.5 million polygons @ 30 fps. Wow, who knew.

    Nba2Night gameplay shot. 40,497 tris per frame x 30 fps = 1.2 million polygons per second.Not bad.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    We'll come back to this.


    So I tried using a laptop to do burns, its a beefy one(i5 with 6 GB DDR3). The important variable is that barely anything is running on it, where as on my desktop I got a browser with 40 tabs. The situation might be other programs might be interfering with the CD burning by using up CPU and RAM resources. So it seems the quality of the burn also means the CD burning program needs full computer resources to do its job.
    Yes that was a big problem back in the day for me, not anymore since computers have gotten so much more powerful. Didnt think that would be the issue for you.

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    Another sports game on the dc. This times midways NFL Blitz 2001. Despite how it looks it really high performing. This game was when midway decided to upgrade the games graphics to further take advantage of the dreamcast, I guess midway knew their way around the dc... when they tried. It really was a big jump.Despite the graphics increase still unflinching 60fps.

    NFL Blitz 2001 gameplay shot. Perfect wide during the kick off. 35,922 tris per frame x 60 fps = 2.1 million polygons per second.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    beautiful! even the 16/9 ratio!

    Is it a modified iso or just codebreaker/action replay codes?

    Edit: (sorry if a little off topic) second question: what connection do you use to have a perfectly centered image and prevent the classic DC image shifting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Talking about sports I decided to revisit Konamis Espn NBA2Night. Despite looking ugly as sin its quite capable. Can spike up close to 1.5 million polygons @ 30 fps. Wow, who knew.
    Wow, incredible because the game doesn't look that great. How many polygons does D2 push? That game looked wonderful and also the sound design was incredible



    Also, anyone know the polygon count of Space Channel 5 Part 2 and REZ on the DC?
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    I just finished doing some personal stuff not related to games, so expect me to be more active in this thread again and working on my goal of documenting Dreamcast performance. Though I can't write anything right now, I just drove 150 KM and been awake for 18 hours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Wow, incredible because the game doesn't look that great. How many polygons does D2 push? That game looked wonderful and also the sound design was incredible
    i love this game, here are the numbers by Gamers Magazine: one million pps, 60fps, 18k per frame, 2,000 polygons on character faces, over 5,000 polygons for snow, 640x480 resolution.

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