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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    this is something i've been commenting on, polygons aren't everything

    but the way they are used, for example we know (or supposedly we know) that Tekken 4 pushes less polygonos than Doa2 or tekken tag this leads us wrongly that dreamcast could handle this game as I honestly don't see cpu resources to animate the characters on that stage where the audience is 3d, sets with interactive water, specular lighting, volumetric smoke. this shows us, the stage itself has many polygons and everything is stitched together. We also see this concept in open world games, in measurement the PS2 reached 900k, that is, that section of the open world game processed 900k but despite this number it is within the possibilities of the dreamcast it would not be able to place all the polygons on the map and sustain the game scope. In a way, there is a sophistry about polygonal counts on this thread, per second, per frame, and the ability to run a large map with few polygons. These three things need to be pointed out if we want a better understanding of console capabilities.
    I'm not really seeing anything in Tekken 4 that looks to be that demanding. Sure there's some audience members in some stages, but the stages themselves are far less complex (usually just a flat floor with some objects here and there), and the audience members are extremely low poly.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    N64 is a exemple, ps1 has game with 180k pps (Tobal 1) 2k or 3k at 60fps but ps1 is limited 3k per frame, N64 can 4,6,8k per frame but at 20fps 6x20= 120pps 8x15fps etc but game is superior cause polygons per frame rules visuals.
    This is a very bad example and comparison because how polygons are drawn and handled between the two systems are very different. First I don't know where you got those polygon counts but they seem very off. A lot of N64 games generally have less polygons in their models and on screen. For example I think Hyrule Field in Ocarina of time is maybe 2000 polygons for the entire model. Since you don't see the entire thing in one frame, you're going to have less than that on screen at any given time. On the N64 you have the ability to draw very large polygons, with tiled textures, etc. On PS1 and Saturn though if you try to do this you'll get horrible texture warping. So you need to subdivide your polygons as they get closer to the camera to mitigate this. As a result PS1 and sometimes even Saturn can end up pushing more polygons in a frame, even if the scene isn't as geometrically complex.

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    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    That seems to align with what ChillyWilly said years ago I think?



    I think when I tested Rogue Squadron in Dolphin years ago I got around 12 Million Polygons Per second when walking around the hangar? But yeah, the later consoles start to soar past that 1 million polygons per second benchmark easily.
    Even when in early PS2 a number of games hovered around 1.5 to 2 it makes me think how PSP/PS2 benefited one another for years starting in 2005. PSP wasn't quite on PS2's level but close enough. So I'm thinking of 2004 when Dreamcast on a chip was announced. Had DC had a full life span it could have maybe been extended by a portable similar to PSP. Getting ports of SEGA's portable and DC ports to the portable. So some of those later PS2 games might have been the lower end of PPS as they were sometimes just PSP ports. Silent Hill Shattered Memories is a good one to test as I think the PS2 port is straight from PSP, not the Wii. I'd be curious how many PPS ths PS2/PSP version is. Clearly a step down.


    We know PS2 can do much better than this but just saying late PS2 is a time when you might find more than expected games running at a lower than usual PPS.
    Last edited by Leynos; 08-16-2022 at 02:25 AM.

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    [QUOTE=Leynos;886952] I'm thinking of 2004 when Dreamcast on a chip was announced. Had DC had a full life span it could have maybe been extended by a portable similar to PSP. Getting ports of SEGA's portable and DC ports to the portable. So some of those later PS2 games might have been the lower end of PPS as they were sometimes just PSP ports. Silent Hill Shattered Memories is a good one to test as I think the PS2 port is straight from PSP, not the Wii. I'd be curious how many PPS ths PS2/PSP version is. Clearly a step down.



    The DC SOC was done in 2000 (I'm not trying to be clever here) SEGA at the time was looking to try and get into the PC's at the time PSO was coming out; Naka-san confirmed this in a feature over PSO (no doubt where the rumours of the XBox being able to play DC games started from) and in 2001 was looking to get into Pace digital boxes Ect. It would have been great to have a handheld DC, but I guess the storage delivery mechanism would have been a major factor along with all the other issues and costs associated with the HH.

    I did read that MushiKing : The Battle of the Beetles was the 1st NA@MI game to make use of the SOC design, but I'm not 100% if that was ever true?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Talking of DC, while the game is not very good. I was always impressed with the graphics in Soul Fighter that game was so smooth with some wonderful utterly beautiful textures, such a shame the game didn't play great or support the VGA box. It looked to me like a Amusement Vision game in terms of graphics (not gameplay)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Even when in early PS2 a number of games hovered around 1.5 to 2 it makes me think how PSP/PS2 benefited one another for years starting in 2005. PSP wasn't quite on PS2's level but close enough. So I'm thinking of 2004 when Dreamcast on a chip was announced. Had DC had a full life span it could have maybe been extended by a portable similar to PSP. Getting ports of SEGA's portable and DC ports to the portable. So some of those later PS2 games might have been the lower end of PPS as they were sometimes just PSP ports. Silent Hill Shattered Memories is a good one to test as I think the PS2 port is straight from PSP, not the Wii. I'd be curious how many PPS ths PS2/PSP version is. Clearly a step down.


    We know PS2 can do much better than this but just saying late PS2 is a time when you might find more than expected games running at a lower than usual PPS.
    I did quite a few psp disc assets extractions. Psp and dreamcast are much closer together than you think. Very similar polygon throughput it seems. The difference i see they psp was much smarter done by using alot of vertex colors( meaning lighting is faked) and overall better modeled and textured( even though the textures are smaller than dc) . Psp does seem to have a few things over dc though, it uses framebuffer effects like motion and bloom far more often( depth of field is actually very rare on it) .

    Psp:









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    With all this talk of Resident Evil 4 on a DC. What numbers is RE 4 pushing on the original iPhone? That version of RE4 doesn't really way beyond some of the better DC games 3D games
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    Dunno where you get 2000 from TA. This is dated October 2004. https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...cast-on-a-chip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Dunno where you get 2000 from TA. This is dated October 2004. https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...cast-on-a-chip
    I know you'll look to make fun and say we aren't in 1995 anymore, but here's Naka-san talking about the system on chip, before PSO shipped onthe DC (2000)





    And here's when SEGA pulled the plug on the DC and were looking to deals to get the SOC inside set-top boxes like Sky Digital (2001)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I know you'll look to make fun and say we aren't in 1995 anymore, but here's Naka-san talking about the system on chip, before PSO shipped onthe DC (2000)

    And here's when SEGA pulled the plug on the DC and were looking to deals to get the SOC inside set-top boxes like Sky Digital (2001)
    This is the last revision of the Dreamcast, the VA2. As you can see it's still multiple chips:



    What was probably going on was the idea or part of the design was worked out around then, but the actual chips weren't produced until much later. Or Naka may have been mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    First I don't know where you got those polygon counts but they seem very off. A lot of N64 games generally have less polygons in their models and on screen.
    Neogaf How much more powerful was the N64 compared to the PlayStation anyway?

    users extracted the polygonal models, and in fact the N64 pushes less polygons this is true for simple games but not true for the other more complex games.

    I brought this example to show how different polygons per second and polygons per frame are
    Let's hear the numbers.

    Toshiden 95 pushes 3k poly on the frame because of that it does 30fps or 90k poly per second.
    Hardcore 4x4 follows the same example, almost 3k per frame at unstable 20~30fps. Saturn 10~20fps
    Tobal 1 120k pps 2k per frame 512x480
    Tobal 2, tekken 3 90k pps less 2k per frame why ? better textures, lighting effects etc

    Tobal 1 pushes more polygons (2k per frame at 60fps) than its sequel Tobal 2 (1.4k at 60fps) this is because the second game has improved effects and textures.

    There is this relation between texture, polygonal frame count and frame rate.

    Rush 2049, WDC, Rayman 2, Mace the dark age, NFL etc

    t doesn't take much effort to see that the N64 puts more polygons in the frame, fingers etc just watch the cutscenes in real time most of them go over the 3k (Turok 2) mark and again the ps1 average is 2k per frame with peaks of 3k, many ps1 games using artistic techniques manage to give the ilusion higher polygonal count than the average as is the case of Crash Bandicoot.

    That's the issue, dreamcast simply produce low frame rate as the frame fills up with polygons, just like the N64.Many numbers that Clofoo gets is ''forcing'' the engine to a peak, see in DOA2 it uses tag mode and captures the polygon count at the exact moment the third char enters the screen, that doesn't mean that in an eventual future game that peak number becomes the average. It's unrealistic to think about it that way imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    It would probably depend on how the math was done. I think the intro varies between 30fps and 60fps. If they weren't aware of that and just assumed 60fps they may have gotten an incorrect number.
    I'd think a guy who wrote an entire DC emulator (the first to play Ikaruga properly) and created one of the first ODEs for the system would know to not make such mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Or Naka may have been mistaken.
    Naka-san was on about the SOC that SEGA was looking to offer to be put inside other systems, you can probably bet the move to kill Dreamcast hardware had more or less already been taken. It wasn't about making the DC cheaper would imagine DC production run in the factories was already looking to be stopped.

    It was widely reported in 2001 that Isao Okawa wanted the SOC inside the OG XBox, I'm sure the late great man actually commented on it at the time, that he wanted it inside the XBox to be part of the deal for SEGA to be on the XBox? Do remember all talk of the DC SOC being put inside DVD players, SKY set-top boxes Ect (UK official DC mag went a little OTT over it) very much like what LM Labs did with Nuon.

    For me none of it would have made a blind bit of difference, the DC was dead long before Naka-san talked of the SOC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Neogaf
    Gets things wrong all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    How much more powerful was the N64 compared to the PlayStation anyway?

    users extracted the polygonal models, and in fact the N64 pushes less polygons this is true for simple games but not true for the other more complex games.

    I brought this example to show how different polygons per second and polygons per frame are
    Let's hear the numbers.

    Toshiden 95 pushes 3k poly on the frame because of that it does 30fps or 90k poly per second.
    Hardcore 4x4 follows the same example, almost 3k per frame at unstable 20~30fps. Saturn 10~20fps
    Tobal 1 120k pps 2k per frame 512x480
    Tobal 2, tekken 3 90k pps less 2k per frame why ? better textures, lighting effects etc

    Tobal 1 pushes more polygons (2k per frame at 60fps) than its sequel Tobal 2 (1.4k at 60fps) this is because the second game has improved effects and textures.

    There is this relation between texture, polygonal frame count and frame rate.

    Rush 2049, WDC, Rayman 2, Mace the dark age, NFL etc

    t doesn't take much effort to see that the N64 puts more polygons in the frame, fingers etc just watch the cutscenes in real time most of them go over the 3k (Turok 2) mark and again the ps1 average is 2k per frame with peaks of 3k, many ps1 games using artistic techniques manage to give the ilusion higher polygonal count than the average as is the case of Crash Bandicoot.

    That's the issue, dreamcast simply produce low frame rate as the frame fills up with polygons, just like the N64.Many numbers that Clofoo gets is ''forcing'' the engine to a peak, see in DOA2 it uses tag mode and captures the polygon count at the exact moment the third char enters the screen, that doesn't mean that in an eventual future game that peak number becomes the average. It's unrealistic to think about it that way imo.
    Extracted models don't tell you everything. Let's take a look at something like Ocarnia of time. It runs at 20fps. Looking at extracted models it looks like Link's high detail model is 750ish polygons, his low detail model is about 375ish Polygons. Hyrule Field looks to be about 1500 Polygons. Now, you can't just add these numbers up and go "Ok in Hyrule Field N64 is pushing 2250 Polygons per frame at 20fps", that's not accurate. Just because the models have that many polygons doesn't mean that many polygons are being drawn on screen at a given time. When we factor in culling, we can assume Link's model is probably only drawing about 1/2-2/3 of it's polygons. Hyrule field if you look at it is made up of very large polygons:



    Depending on where you're standing you may only be seeing ~100 or so polygons being drawn of it. For the most intense shot, maybe 500-750 polygons of it. So the polygons being drawn per frame here would at most be something like 1250ish polygons per frame, or about 25k Polygons per second when considering the game runs at 20fps.

    Now let's take a look at a PS1 game, like Spyro 3. One of Spyro's map models by comparison has about 12,000 polygons in it:



    Spyro uses an LOD and Subdivision system as well. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if we're seeing a similar number of ~1200 polygons per frame if not more in Spyro on PS1, depending on where in the map we are and what the camera is showing. Spyro also runs at 30fps on PS1, so it's probably going to be pushing more polygons per second as a result.

    So the real take away here is that PS1/Saturn and N64 handle polygons very differently. A model that works on N64 will not work well on PS1/Saturn. On PS1/Saturn you need to use smaller polygons as things get closer to the camera to avoid texture warping and what not, while on N64 you can use large polygons without issue. And then the other bit you don't get told with just looking at models is dynamic subdivision. Having a bunch of LOD models in RAM takes up space, but if you do subdivision in your engine you can get a similar benefit without wasting RAM. You can see some games doing just this on PS1, Saturn, etc. Those kind of polygon counts will not show up in the extracted models.

    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    I'd think a guy who wrote an entire DC emulator (the first to play Ikaruga properly) and created one of the first ODEs for the system would know to not make such mistakes.
    Sure, but since we don't have anything to look at currently but an offhand remark I was simply stating that looking at the intro could be deceiving since the frame rate changes from 30fps to 60fps frequently through it. I wasn't saying the guy was incompetent, just that people can sometimes make mistakes.
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-16-2022 at 12:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Tobal 2
    I remember Kutaragi-san telling EDGE that (the the time) Tobal 2 was the game using the PS the most using 90% of the PS potential using the Performance Analyzer

    You got numbers on RE 4 running on the IPhone, it looks massively cutback and shows how many a DC port would have looked, if Capcom needed to do it LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Naka-san was on about the SOC that SEGA was looking to offer to be put inside other systems, you can probably bet the move to kill Dreamcast hardware had more or less already been taken. It wasn't about making the DC cheaper would imagine DC production run in the factories was already looking to be stopped.

    It was widely reported in 2001 that Isao Okawa wanted the SOC inside the OG XBox, I'm sure the late great man actually commented on it at the time, that he wanted it inside the XBox to be part of the deal for SEGA to be on the XBox? Do remember all talk of the DC SOC being put inside DVD players, SKY set-top boxes Ect (UK official DC mag went a little OTT over it) very much like what LM Labs did with Nuon.

    For me none of it would have made a blind bit of difference, the DC was dead long before Naka-san talked of the SOC.
    DC on a chip is not the same thing. It was 2X as powerful as DC. So it's not just a simple revision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    No, you were trying to claim the entire generation was hovering around 1 Million polygons per second which isn't true at all. This reverse engineering if anything is proving the points that were made previously still hold true. The Dead or Alive example holds true to what we had already stated years ago. The game was stated to be around 2-3 Million Polygons per second which that seems to hold up with the findings here. It also holds up with what ChillyWilly said about around 3-4 Million polygons per second being about the most you could get on Dreamcast. But again that number I believe is for non-textured polygons. If you're doing textured that number is going to come down. Since Dead or Alive 2 does a lot of non-textured polygons on the character models that adds up and makes sense.
    Just for the record, again, Trekkies and his sometimes allies misrepresented everything I wrote and this group allowed it. What I was doing is trying to inspire work like this thread has actually produced. I knew my generalization would draw the opine generators and rabid fanboys into a fight, and it did. What I did not expect was the entire group to slavishly follow a few loud mouthed, entitled, self lovers instead of reading for themselves. The entire generation had games that floated around 1 million polygons per second, that nobody marked down in reviews or forums for doing. This is concrete, historical fact. YOU ran me off this forum with your false faced sometimes allies by misrepresenting that statement into what you have stated again, nearly a decade later. I had hoped that among your many lies you were actually just a 14yr old that grew up and started thinking more honestly. I guess that was my truest mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    You need to remember what's being posted here are Models and their polygon counts. That's not the same as what's being rendered each frame on screen. Polygons get culled and not all of them get processed and drawn. You need to use Polygons per frame to get your polygons per second count.
    I don't need you to remind me about how graphics work. Actually nobody in this group needs that. You substance abusing opine generators and fact obfuscaters have reiterated the same exact things so many times you don't even care that you never prove anything. Sega-16 is not a real place, I have never been invested in this group or any other because it is all made up fantasy reiterated. You and the others did run me off, you know the forum rules, the moderators and the group just couldn't be bothered to read well enough to see you were breaking them.

    But I have to thank you all once again. Not only for coming around and doing your own research proving the points I made on GP decades ago with even more evidence. But also for killing any hope I had in humanity wanting to learn with any intellectual integrity, internal consistency, or a desire to accurately reflect reality. It made walking away easy, so don't worry. I'm not going to come back to you safe place and attempt to show you for what you are.

    I'm also glad to see that some of the members here and elsewhere online see that Usenet is a treasure trove of primary sources, and that even Trekkies admits that NeoGaf is wrong all the time. Solid improvements despite the instrinsic problems of this place.
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